| 00:12.34 | mheath | Bah, I need to get a High definition DVD player |
| 00:12.43 | mheath | My dad went and got a HD TV finally |
| 00:13.23 | mheath | movies are less enjoyable, since its obvious now that the quality can't keep up |
| 00:22.53 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@67.137.24.115) |
| 00:22.53 | brac | ~onjoin harleypig *moan* |
| 00:22.54 | ibot | ok, brac |
| 00:23.22 | findlay | well |
| 00:28.38 | mheath | findlay: cool onjoin, but I think it just overwrote a ping rqeuest or messsge someone left for harleypig.. |
| 00:28.41 | mheath | hmmm |
| 00:45.11 | mheath | another random bit of info from a harry potter movie: How they win the chess game in the first movie makes no sense. |
| 00:45.31 | mheath | They say that Ron has to movie, so the queen will take him and then they'll have check mate |
| 00:45.51 | mheath | But theres no incentive for a queen to move at a knight tahts within a straight line with it |
| 00:46.13 | mheath | Considering that the knight doesn't place them in check |
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| 01:11.21 | graphyx | elg you colocating out of UT or did you move back? |
| 01:13.26 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-122-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 01:13.58 | mheath | Odd |
| 01:14.12 | mheath | PuTTY causes my Windows desktop to lock up sometime |
| 01:14.14 | mheath | *sometimes |
| 01:48.35 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 02:02.45 | Supaplex | it's a feature ;) |
| 02:09.22 | elg | visiting |
| 02:15.03 | levi_home | visiting? |
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| 03:22.27 | mheath | So |
| 03:22.44 | mheath | I'm thinking about looking into Perl for web programming |
| 03:22.47 | mheath | Never used Perl before |
| 03:23.00 | mheath | Could anyone toss me a link to a guide on this? |
| 03:23.17 | sontek | mheath: "Learning Perl" by O'reilly |
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| 03:24.41 | herlo | prag prog stuff is good |
| 03:25.19 | mheath | sontek: Website. |
| 03:25.32 | mheath | I have enough O'Reilly books that sounded like a cool good purchase at the time and I never use :P |
| 03:25.38 | mheath | I'm looking for a free website |
| 03:26.10 | mheath | By the way |
| 03:26.21 | mheath | Well, not by the way |
| 03:26.38 | mheath | On a completely different topic |
| 03:27.50 | mheath | Has anyone ever worked with a congressman to help resolve federal government issues before? |
| 03:28.16 | mheath | Orrin Hatchs website says: "Everyone should be treated fairly. If you live in Utah and have a problem that involves a federal agency, my staff and I will do everything we can to try and assist you. If you need help determining the status of your benefits or eligibilty for a federal program, I can also help you." |
| 03:28.45 | mheath | I was thinking about writing him, about that Psychologist who lied on my medical forms, resulting in me being discharged... |
| 03:30.09 | sontek | jI think they'll believe the psychologist over the crazy person! |
| 03:30.34 | herlo | who's the crazy person? |
| 03:31.50 | sontek | ~simpsons herlo |
| 03:31.50 | ibot | ACTION sends herlo chasing a rolling pink donut down the hill screaming, "its still good!, its still good!" |
| 03:31.59 | mheath | sontek: OK, apparently you believe I'm homicidal too. |
| 03:32.13 | mheath | Because the doc implied that in his report, too |
| 03:32.30 | sontek | mheath: I'm not confirming or denying that I wish you were dead! |
| 03:32.38 | mheath | He printed off a two page report immediately after meeting with me, and he didn't touch the keyboard once |
| 03:32.54 | mheath | He wrote a two page report, before meeting with me. In it, he lies |
| 03:34.02 | mheath | he states that I was continuously suicidal, that I was unwilling to promise that I wouldn't cause harm to myself (I spent the entire session assuring him that I was NOT suicidal), he implies I was homicidal... |
| 03:34.41 | sontek | Thats life, one time KFC forgot my mash potatoes |
| 03:34.42 | mheath | After 15 minutes of talking to me (Read: Lecturing me about how I was being 'immature', I couldn't get a word in edgewise), he declares that I have a "personality disorder" |
| 03:35.17 | mheath | There was a comprehensive report by a team of psychologists and staff that monitored me for a week that diagnosed me with "Short term depression" |
| 03:35.56 | mheath | erm |
| 03:36.00 | mheath | "Short term situational depression" |
| 03:37.11 | mheath | sontek: Yeah, but KFC forgetting your mashed potatoes didn't result in you getting unfairly kicked out of the job that you worked hard at, that meant more than ANYTHING to you |
| 03:37.18 | mheath | It didn't result in medical records implying you were homicidal |
| 03:37.36 | mheath | And it didn't result in you having a form your required to show to any employer who asks for it that says you have a Personality Disorder |
| 03:39.38 | mheath | My Question is, do you think it would be _bad_ to contact a congressman about this? =\ |
| 03:42.29 | herlo | sontek: its *mashed* potatoes |
| 03:43.06 | mheath | herlo: not if its a potatoe he plans to mash. |
| 03:43.19 | mheath | IE, a potato to mash. A mash potato :) |
| 03:44.00 | sinuhe | learn.perl.org? |
| 03:45.44 | sontek | mheath: it meant I was hungry for a day, and if I wanted to be hungry I wouldn't have spent my $6 |
| 03:45.55 | sinuhe | As for Hatch, my experience in writing him is he checks for nothing more than subject matter to add to his statistics of those who support him, whether or not what you wrote really supported him. |
| 03:45.57 | sontek | mheath: but I got over the wrong doing |
| 03:46.05 | sontek | mheath: and now I enjoy mc.donalds instead. |
| 03:46.06 | mheath | sinuhe: this is a different kind of letter though |
| 03:46.31 | herlo | ~simpsons maquis |
| 03:46.32 | ibot | ACTION sends maquis chasing a rolling pink donut down the hill screaming, "its still good!, its still good!" |
| 03:46.32 | mheath | sinuhe: those are the "I oppose _____ because ____ letters" |
| 03:46.33 | sinuhe | mheath: What does the letter content have to do with the fact that he doesn't read his mail? |
| 03:47.12 | mheath | sinuhe: Because what senator wouldn't eat up and get behind a "I'm desperately trying to serve my country but the military unfairly kicked me out" case? |
| 03:47.23 | mheath | He also has a seperate submission system for personal action items |
| 03:47.29 | sinuhe | I wrote Hatch that he should knock off talking about destroying people's computers for illegal music copying and focus more on the junk I get everyday in my snailmail box. He wrote back to thank me for supporting his spam campaign. |
| 03:48.25 | mheath | sinuhe: I've had taht reaction too |
| 03:48.34 | mheath | But this is a personal action request, not an opinion letter |
| 03:49.57 | mheath | Anyway |
| 03:49.59 | sinuhe | I believe that all of Hatch's mail is screened. If you want to have any chance, keep it to a couple of sentences and propose a specific action to ask from him. You'd probably be better with a phone call, or trying to catch him in person with a specific request. |
| 03:50.19 | mheath | my question isn't really "Will he do anything?" |
| 03:50.43 | mheath | It's more "Do you think its OK for me to be asking this?" |
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| 03:50.53 | mheath | I've received very mixed reactions about my military service in here =\/ |
| 03:52.09 | sinuhe | Bother politicians with public input on a bill, or proposals for a new bill that will make him look good. However, if you don't care about his response, no there's nothing wrong with contacting him for something like that. However, it sounds like a grievance better handled through ROTC/military channels, you should probably not. |
| 03:52.24 | sinuhe | s/it/if it/ |
| 03:52.41 | sinuhe | Oops...bad sed. |
| 03:52.54 | mheath | heh |
| 03:55.50 | mheath | I'm not mailing this off yet, anyway |
| 03:56.01 | mheath | sending off a request for my military records stuff first.. |
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| 04:39.38 | mheath | What a stupid term |
| 04:39.43 | mheath | "Tivoization" |
| 04:39.46 | mheath | ~lart Stallman |
| 04:39.46 | ibot | explains, ever so gently, that if Stallman doesn't give the channel more information, they can't help |
| 04:50.15 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@c-76-23-34-128.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:57.07 | levi_home | Woot, I have my new Arrivaltel phone number. |
| 04:58.41 | mheath | Cool |
| 04:58.48 | fozzmoo | Hope you have better luck with Arrivaltel than I have had. |
| 04:59.00 | levi_home | fozzmoo: What kinds of problems have you had? |
| 05:00.09 | fozzmoo | levi_home: Oh, just getting someone on the phone to set things up. |
| 05:00.14 | fozzmoo | I don't know if it ever got done right. |
| 05:00.19 | fozzmoo | we just kind of gave up on them. |
| 05:01.13 | fozzmoo | I've had other people tell me similar stories. When it works, it works great. WHen it doesn't, good luck getting hold of someone. |
| 05:01.38 | fozzmoo | That being said, I've heard their one of the best locally. |
| 05:01.39 | levi_home | I've been able to get ahold of someone twice now. It took a little bit of calling, but it didn't seem too onerous. |
| 05:01.51 | levi_home | And they've been fairly responsive via email. |
| 05:01.51 | fozzmoo | s/their/they're/ |
| 05:02.15 | fozzmoo | Well, like I said, I hope it goes better for you. Sounds like it already has. |
| 05:19.34 | elg | fozzmoo: email is the way |
| 05:19.47 | elg | when they're not as busy, they're in #utaug also |
| 05:20.11 | elg | if you call, you're in the same pool as the rest of the idiots in the world who depend on phones for asynchronous communication :) |
| 05:46.20 | levi_home | Well, I made my first incoming call and answered it with my laptop softphone. |
| 05:48.47 | mheath | meh |
| 05:48.56 | mheath | ~lart VOIP |
| 05:48.56 | ibot | puts on a hockey mask and jumps out at VOIP |
| 05:50.24 | levi_home | It's kind of hard to determine the call quality when you're calling yourself. |
| 05:51.46 | Supaplex | .oO( Can me here me now? ) |
| 06:08.29 | mheath | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btXe2wsoJ4w thats such a cool video... |
| 06:08.29 | herlo | http://www.emilykwan.com/blog/images/image001.jpg |
| 06:08.29 | mheath | 72 hours from now I'll be reading the last book in a series I've been reading since I was about 8...kinda sad. |
| 06:12.33 | Supaplex | what took you so long ;) |
| 06:14.55 | mheath | ~lart Supaplex |
| 06:14.55 | ibot | overclocks Supaplex until Supaplex burns out |
| 06:15.06 | mheath | It sucks, though. |
| 06:15.21 | mheath | Kinda stupid, I know - its a children series and I'm now an adult...but I kinda grew up with that series |
| 06:16.08 | mheath | hmm, I should learn to play Violin. I forgot we had one... |
| 06:18.32 | mheath | Hmmm, I remember when I looked at it before, it was in decent shape. Granted that was 10 years ago, now, probably |
| 06:18.43 | mheath | Strings are all busted on the violin and one of the bows, now |
| 06:20.16 | mheath | heh, anyone here know anything about violins? |
| 06:20.34 | Supaplex | only as much as the average nobody |
| 06:21.47 | mheath | I wonder if this got broken by somebody, or if it was a taught-strings-laying-for-decades thing |
| 06:24.07 | levi_home | Hmm, I can receive inbound calls but not make outbound calls. |
| 06:25.34 | mheath | Odd. |
| 06:26.05 | mheath | yeah, the bow is actually snapped at place that seems to suggest prsessure over time |
| 06:26.18 | mheath | Don't think theres anyything you can do about that...theres no way to temporarily loosen the strings |
| 06:28.10 | levi_home | There was on the bow I used. |
| 06:28.32 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 06:28.33 | levi_home | I recall loosening them every time I put it away. There was a knob on the end of the bow. |
| 06:29.03 | levi_home | My wife's bow and some strings were destroyed by a niece. :( |
| 06:29.36 | mheath | Several of the strings on the violin are snapped too |
| 06:29.53 | mheath | I'm worried it was me that broke them...this has been sitting in storage since I was of the play-with-and-break-family-heirlooms age. |
| 06:30.17 | mheath | levi_home: how long did it take your wife to get proficient at the violin? |
| 06:30.23 | mheath | I just figured it would be cool to learn..good sound |
| 06:30.27 | levi_home | Viola, actually. |
| 06:30.28 | mheath | and I have my mom's violin.. |
| 06:30.51 | levi_home | I don't recall how long she played. She quit a while ago when she had jaw surgery, so I've never heard her play. |
| 06:31.08 | mheath | aww :( |
| 06:31.15 | mheath | your right, there is a knob on the end, thanks.. |
| 06:31.21 | mheath | I would never have realized that loosed it |
| 06:31.33 | mheath | theres two, one was broken, and the other slightly bent.. |
| 06:32.02 | mheath | these are supposed to be horsehair bows |
| 06:32.17 | mheath | Which I've been told isn't common anymore |
| 06:33.49 | Sargun | Hm, do you guys think that my routing tables might be slightly overkill for a home box: http://pastebin.com/m31d30165 |
| 06:33.58 | levi_home | Hmm, I suspect the password they gave me is slightly wrong. |
| 06:35.46 | mheath | Routing is something I need to learn about |
| 06:35.49 | mheath | Never had to do much with it |
| 06:37.25 | Sargun | haha |
| 06:37.34 | Sargun | mheath, I suggest you play with it some time |
| 06:37.54 | Sargun | Its probably one of the most entertaining networking prospects you'll take up |
| 06:38.14 | mheath | I'm going to learn the violin first |
| 06:38.33 | mheath | I learned how to play the Guiter |
| 06:38.44 | mheath | This is just like an insanely overcomplicated mini-guitar. :P |
| 06:39.46 | levi_home | With no frets. :) |
| 06:40.25 | Sargun | good luck. |
| 06:40.34 | Sargun | don't die. |
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| 06:43.38 | mheath | bah |
| 06:43.49 | mheath | so much for the "I already have a violin I can learn with idea" |
| 06:43.58 | mheath | It's broken |
| 06:44.34 | mheath | Piece was loose, only held in place by the taught strings...went to loosen the still-attached strings and it came off.. |
| 06:44.43 | mheath | so |
| 06:44.45 | levi_home | It can probably be repaired. |
| 06:44.57 | mheath | levi_home: I'm sure it can |
| 06:45.05 | mheath | it appears this piece was just glued on in the first place |
| 06:45.09 | mheath | And its a completely clean break |
| 06:56.21 | *** join/#utah Re|ent|ess (i=LentScri@adsl-76-241-74-88.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) |
| 06:56.59 | BEHiker57W | There's a community of musical instrument collectors. You can get advice from Utah Guitar and Banjo on 100 S 700 E |
| 07:06.47 | BEHiker57W | It's Intermountain Guitar And Banjo. |
| 07:07.19 | mheath | doesn't seem like they repair bowed string instruments |
| 07:07.35 | mheath | "Since 1973 we havfe specialized in the repair & restoration of old guitars, banjos & mandolins." |
| 07:08.22 | Sargun | Try calling them, they might be able to refer you to a violin repair shop. |
| 07:10.27 | mheath | I wonder how much this would all cost |
| 07:10.47 | mheath | This was a trivial "I have no money, but think learning another instrument would be cool...oh, look, I have a violin I can use" thing |
| 07:10.51 | mheath | I don't want to spend that much money. |
| 07:17.08 | *** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.189.162) |
| 07:37.33 | mheath | Wow |
| 07:37.37 | mheath | I need to not watch youtube movies |
| 07:37.40 | mheath | I'm so confused now |
| 07:37.47 | mheath | I totally have no clue whats going on right now. |
| 07:38.04 | mheath | and I've even more confused that this video has 1,625 view |
| 07:42.02 | mheath | Wow, people have some...odd perversions. |
| 08:13.59 | Re|ent|ess | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:14.00 | *** part/#utah Re|ent|ess (i=LentScri@adsl-76-241-74-88.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) |
| 09:31.27 | *** part/#utah BEHiker57W (n=brian@slc375.modem.xmission.com) |
| 11:46.50 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@72.16.250.178) |
| 12:37.53 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 12:41.01 | *** join/#utah klys (n=admini@72.8.101.65) |
| 12:52.43 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 13:25.19 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@66.60.228.140) |
| 13:26.50 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@66.60.228.140) |
| 13:35.36 | sjansen | ~rlart |
| 13:35.37 | ibot | breaks out the Hoover and sucks up sjansen |
| 13:36.29 | sjansen | harumph |
| 13:36.36 | *** join/#utah pr0le (n=jeremiah@72-254-127-45.hq.ibahn.com) |
| 13:36.45 | sjansen | bad ibot, no biscuit |
| 13:37.01 | sinuhe | Is ibot giving you a bad time? |
| 13:37.55 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 13:40.25 | sjansen | I'll show ibot a bad time! |
| 13:40.27 | sjansen | ~abuse ibot |
| 13:40.28 | ibot | ACTION smacks ibot across the face. "Take that, sucker!" |
| 13:45.08 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 13:47.38 | *** join/#utah hatul30 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-875fcc9236887b1e) |
| 13:51.31 | sinuhe | ~evil |
| 13:51.31 | ibot | evil is probably something Microsoft bought from Satan, according to http://bbspot.com/News/2000/4/MS_Buys_Evil.html |
| 13:51.35 | brac | [BBspot - Microsoft Purchases Evil From Satan] |
| 13:55.13 | sinuhe | I've decided that if physicists use "top" for their Uncertainty Principle experiments in observing systems with adversly affecting them, that we may find answers to the great questions in the Universe. If only my wife had "top" to run, perhaps I'd understand her better. |
| 13:55.24 | sinuhe | s/with/without/ |
| 13:55.37 | sinuhe | s/that/then/ |
| 13:55.53 | sinuhe | s/then/that/ |
| 13:55.55 | sinuhe | sigh |
| 13:57.21 | sinuhe | Sorry. I got reading the top man page and found this entry: "...the very act of running top may break this weak affinity and cause more processes to change CPUs more often" |
| 13:57.44 | ^Migs^ | wtf |
| 13:58.14 | sinuhe | Brain rot happens when reading too many man pages and see connections in unexpected places. |
| 14:00.21 | sinuhe | s/see/seeing/ |
| 14:02.30 | sjansen | Brain rot? I don't know about that. But there are some real gems hidden in some Linux man pages. |
| 14:04.03 | klys | aren't you glad you use `top'? don't you wish everybody did? |
| 14:04.49 | sinuhe | klys: It's not so much that others use top. I wish I could run top *on* everybody else. |
| 14:05.21 | klys | then you would require immediate statistics on how much resources they were using |
| 14:06.47 | sinuhe | Hence the comment on my wife. |
| 14:06.58 | sinuhe | Thank God she is not currently in this chat room. |
| 14:07.00 | sinuhe | :-) |
| 14:07.38 | klys | so, you want to know which tasks I am performing which are most pressing. I have a large UML diagram in front of me that has been in the works for some time |
| 14:08.28 | sinuhe | top klys &>/dev/null |
| 14:08.29 | klys | I have to implement dynamically adding and removing cels from and to arbitrary places in a pile and within a page |
| 14:09.33 | klys | and, I just cooked crepes and began filling them with tapioca |
| 14:10.11 | sinuhe | ~whip devnull |
| 14:10.12 | ibot | ACTION takes devnull outside to be thoroughly whipped by sinuhe |
| 14:10.44 | *** join/#utah decriptor (i=decripto@nat/novell/x-53ccb6e0209eb4db) |
| 14:11.54 | sjansen | ~steal klys's crepes |
| 14:11.54 | ibot | ACTION grabs klys's crepes and gives it to sjansen |
| 14:12.31 | klys | I still have six left, and one of them is like double the value |
| 14:12.53 | klys | ;) |
| 14:13.31 | klys | so, good morning |
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| 14:17.00 | sjansen | ~steal all of klys's crepes |
| 14:17.01 | ibot | ACTION grabs all of klys's crepes and gives it to sjansen |
| 14:17.13 | elg | ~crepe sjansen |
| 14:18.39 | sjansen | ~flambe elg |
| 14:21.36 | *** join/#utah MSC386 (n=chatzill@c-67-182-251-233.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 14:23.15 | MSC386 | Hello, Sinuhe. |
| 14:23.20 | sinuhe | I hear gaim (or whatever they call it now) has a text version, now. |
| 14:23.28 | sinuhe | Hallo! |
| 14:23.34 | klys | ja, hallo |
| 14:23.54 | MSC386 | Yeah, but I haven't installed it on my BSD systems yet. |
| 14:24.07 | MSC386 | Hello, Klys. |
| 14:24.29 | klys | what's up with bsd? do you prefer netbsd? |
| 14:24.54 | sinuhe | Open is superior. |
| 14:25.52 | MSC386 | I like Open and Net. I still use Windows for my 3D Graphics work. I also have some older systemts running Mac OS 9 and Windows 95. |
| 14:26.02 | klys | does openbsd have anything approaching x.500 ? |
| 14:26.14 | MSC386 | I've got two really old systems running VMS. |
| 14:26.22 | sjansen | MS Visual x.499++ |
| 14:26.25 | klys | hmm, are they loud? |
| 14:26.36 | MSC386 | No, just old. |
| 14:28.24 | MSC386 | x.500? I'm not sure understand that term. |
| 14:28.58 | MSC386 | As Sinuhe will tell you, I'm an "old school" computer guy... Really Old School, you might say. |
| 14:29.14 | sinuhe | I think X.500 is supported through add on software. I'm more familiar with LDAP. |
| 14:29.37 | herlo | MSC386: it doesn't mean you can't teach an old dog new tricks! :) |
| 14:29.57 | findlay-w | ~teach herlo |
| 14:30.38 | MSC386 | This is true. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with all the new stuff. I'm even having some trouble with my 3D Graphics stuff, which I might add I'm pretty good at. |
| 14:30.48 | MSC386 | I'm getting old... |
| 14:31.14 | klys | so, what's cool for opengl and openbsd |
| 14:31.27 | herlo | MSC386: well, you do have "386" in your name |
| 14:31.34 | herlo | ~funny herlo |
| 14:32.29 | MSC386 | I'm sorry, was the last question directed to me? |
| 14:32.32 | klys | yes |
| 14:33.47 | MSC386 | You're speaking of 3D Apps, right? |
| 14:33.56 | klys | well, or tools |
| 14:34.39 | klys | like, one time I found out about mjpegtools, and it's cool |
| 14:35.02 | findlay | blender is cool |
| 14:35.09 | findlay | I used it to render a cube once |
| 14:35.15 | MSC386 | Blender is cool. |
| 14:35.17 | findlay | and that was it |
| 14:35.18 | klys | right, of course blender also runs without openbsd |
| 14:35.24 | MSC386 | I render people and stuff. |
| 14:35.30 | MSC386 | Ask Sinuhe. |
| 14:35.31 | findlay | so you want to be exclusive |
| 14:35.34 | sinuhe | ~render msc386 |
| 14:35.34 | ibot | ACTION turns msc386 into a big whopper |
| 14:35.48 | MSC386 | Ewww.... |
| 14:36.21 | MSC386 | The 3D Tools I mostly use run on Windows and MAC. |
| 14:36.57 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 14:37.16 | MSC386 | Poser, Bryce, 3D Studio Max, Anim8or, Simply 3D, RayDream, Canoma, and Terragen. |
| 14:37.20 | klys | msc386: people with blender? |
| 14:37.26 | MSC386 | Not yet. |
| 14:37.30 | sinuhe | ~blend msc386 |
| 14:37.41 | MSC386 | Mainly been working with Poser for that. |
| 14:38.03 | MSC386 | I'm still learning joint rigging in other apps. |
| 14:38.19 | MSC386 | Oh, I almost forgot, I also have LightWave. |
| 14:38.41 | MSC386 | Let's see, I could show you one of my people... |
| 14:39.45 | klys | I look at art a lot, so if it's impressive shoot |
| 14:39.53 | sargun_screen | Who does Canada peer with other than the US? (internet wise) |
| 14:40.30 | MSC386 | Here it is : http://www.msc386.com/Download/Images/OliviaNewGothNecklace.jpg |
| 14:41.05 | MSC386 | Needs some more work though. I've been working on that one for the past two years. |
| 14:41.27 | klys | you must have had some tool to do the hair lines with |
| 14:41.41 | ^Migs^ | you built that model from scratch? |
| 14:42.03 | MSC386 | Yup. |
| 14:42.17 | MSC386 | The hair I had some help with. |
| 14:42.21 | klys | ok |
| 14:42.34 | ^Migs^ | here's one I did: http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/music8/MC-Portrait-Ghosts2.jpg |
| 14:42.34 | MSC386 | Check out this one : http://www.msc386.com/Download/Images/KateClassicHairEveningOutFit.jpg |
| 14:42.40 | klys | the trees are, well, wintry; but very fine-grained |
| 14:43.14 | ^Migs^ | the necklace looks a little stiff on that one |
| 14:43.20 | MSC386 | This one is an older model, and there have been several variations. Done in Poser 4. The other was done in Poser 6. |
| 14:43.26 | MSC386 | Yes it does. |
| 14:43.37 | MSC386 | The older model I've been working on for 6 years. |
| 14:43.45 | MSC386 | Tweaking it here and there. |
| 14:43.55 | MSC386 | I'm looking at yours, hold on... |
| 14:44.18 | MSC386 | Whoa, I'm impressed. |
| 14:44.31 | ^Migs^ | here's another: http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/music8/Blacksmith301-Postwork.jpg |
| 14:44.36 | MSC386 | I've got one with some trees. |
| 14:44.37 | klys | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:44.46 | ^Migs^ | both done with Poser 4 |
| 14:45.07 | ^Migs^ | I haven't done anything with that in a long, long time, though |
| 14:45.08 | MSC386 | Very Cool. |
| 14:45.20 | MSC386 | I know the feeling. |
| 14:45.28 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 14:45.29 | MSC386 | Let me show you another one... |
| 14:45.30 | ^Migs^ | here's another one with the guy with the sword: http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/music8/FinalBoss-Postwork.jpg |
| 14:45.38 | klys | this guy is a serious bodybuilder it seems intimidating to suppose it is a person |
| 14:45.58 | MSC386 | That is just too cool! |
| 14:46.17 | ^Migs^ | Poser's capable of quite a bit |
| 14:46.46 | ^Migs^ | I think many don't realize that, but all you have to do is head over to Renderosity or Poser Pros or any number of places to see otherwise |
| 14:46.56 | MSC386 | http://www.msc386.com/Download/Images/KatherineClassicHairBeachDressAutumnBg.jpg |
| 14:47.06 | MSC386 | This one is one of my favorites. |
| 14:47.07 | ^Migs^ | that's cool |
| 14:47.12 | MSC386 | Thanks. |
| 14:47.18 | ^Migs^ | you should work on the skin textures |
| 14:47.25 | ^Migs^ | get rid of the plastic look |
| 14:47.33 | MSC386 | I've got a membership to both PoserPros and Renderosity. |
| 14:47.42 | klys | this one's got a very stylish dress |
| 14:47.46 | MSC386 | You're right. I'm still learning how to do that. |
| 14:47.50 | ^Migs^ | http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/music8/Lissa-Forest-Postwork.jpg |
| 14:48.09 | MSC386 | Oh yeah... I like. |
| 14:48.31 | ^Migs^ | http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/music8/Wizard.jpg |
| 14:48.36 | ^Migs^ | wow, I'd forgotten how much I'd made |
| 14:48.36 | MSC386 | I'm still learning about cloth simulations. |
| 14:49.01 | MSC386 | So you're Angel Fire.... I see alot of your work on Renderosity. |
| 14:49.05 | klys | this one's definite fantasy or story-influenced. you must have been paying attention to a florid author or why else would her skinbe blue |
| 14:49.10 | ^Migs^ | uh |
| 14:49.13 | ^Migs^ | lol, no I'm not |
| 14:49.32 | ^Migs^ | I've never posted on Renderosity, and angelfire is not that |
| 14:49.40 | MSC386 | That was impressive. Makes me feel like an amateur. |
| 14:49.44 | ^Migs^ | klys, me? |
| 14:49.55 | ^Migs^ | no these were actually made for a game I was writing |
| 14:50.02 | ^Migs^ | I'll finish it some day :) |
| 14:50.19 | klys | the Lissa one, and the Wizard one is astonishing and very detailed (again) |
| 14:50.41 | MSC386 | A game? Really? Sweet. I want to Revamp VRML and make a new standard called VRML 3.0. |
| 14:50.44 | klys | all of them are too detailed to be animated though |
| 14:50.52 | MSC386 | I think it had some good ideas. |
| 14:50.53 | ^Migs^ | they animate quite well, actually |
| 14:51.17 | MSC386 | I'd like to see the game sometime. |
| 14:51.24 | ^Migs^ | don't hold your berath |
| 14:51.25 | ^Migs^ | *breath |
| 14:51.42 | MSC386 | We old guys can't hold our breath that long. |
| 14:52.21 | elg | this is my level of expertise on the subject: http://hans.fugal.net/tmp/foo.png |
| 14:52.22 | ^Migs^ | cape doesn't move right, but otherwise I think the animation isn't bad: |
| 14:52.24 | ^Migs^ | http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/music8/MC-Attack.gif |
| 14:53.09 | MSC386 | http://www.msc386.com/Download/Images/KatherineBallerinaBryceWater.jpg |
| 14:53.15 | klys | elg: you had some good angles there |
| 14:53.18 | ^Migs^ | that's cool |
| 14:53.20 | ^Migs^ | Poser + Bryce? |
| 14:53.23 | MSC386 | A Ballerina I had to do for a client. |
| 14:53.30 | elg | klys: some of my best cut & paste work |
| 14:53.35 | ^Migs^ | I like the perspective you chose, elg |
| 14:53.48 | MSC386 | Yes. Direct Import. Transparencies for hair was difficult. |
| 14:53.53 | ^Migs^ | you should touch all these up with Photoshop |
| 14:54.04 | MSC386 | Thanks. Yes, I agree. |
| 14:54.14 | ^Migs^ | it's kind of necessary when dealing with Poser |
| 14:54.15 | MSC386 | Let me look at your anim, hold on... |
| 14:54.21 | ^Migs^ | at least it was with Poser 4. I don't know how Poser 6 is. Probably tons better. |
| 14:54.47 | MSC386 | Nice anim... I'm defiintely impressed. |
| 14:55.32 | MSC386 | I like Poser 6. I've never done anything that advanced in Poser 4. Well Done. |
| 14:55.51 | ^Migs^ | ty |
| 14:55.53 | ^Migs^ | your stuff is awesome too |
| 14:56.07 | ^Migs^ | I sometimes wish I went into 3d art + animation |
| 14:56.11 | ^Migs^ | I guess it's not too late |
| 14:56.20 | ^Migs^ | I love just browsing cgtalk |
| 14:56.52 | ^Migs^ | but that way I wouldn't have to stick with just using Poser and manipulating others' models |
| 14:57.17 | MSC386 | I love making my own models. |
| 14:57.24 | MSC386 | Check this out : http://www.msc386.com/images/candacebeach.jpg |
| 14:57.34 | ^Migs^ | now that's cool |
| 14:57.35 | MSC386 | This was done 7 years ago. |
| 14:57.41 | elg | if you turn your monitor upside down she breakdances. |
| 14:57.47 | MSC386 | Yeah. |
| 14:58.06 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 14:58.33 | MSC386 | What sucks is that the original file with the primitives and meshes got destroyed back in '01. |
| 14:58.38 | ^Migs^ | I lost all my stuff too |
| 14:58.48 | MSC386 | I wanted to make some improvements to it. |
| 14:58.54 | MSC386 | I hate when that happens. |
| 14:59.14 | MSC386 | Check out this collaboration I did some time ago : |
| 14:59.40 | MSC386 | http://www.msc386.com/images/venice2k.jpg |
| 15:00.22 | MSC386 | We call it, "Venice 2K". Also done 7 years ago. I did all the figure work, my friend Thomas did the atmospherics. |
| 15:00.34 | MSC386 | It's kind of cheesy in a way, but I like it. |
| 15:01.04 | MSC386 | I have one called "Appetite for Destruction" but it's not for presentation here... |
| 15:01.53 | klys | so, what help did you have with the hair on the first one? |
| 15:02.37 | klys | was it just a photo? |
| 15:02.40 | sinuhe | What was used in The Incredibles for their hair? I was impressed. |
| 15:03.20 | MSC386 | I used a hair prop with a pre-made texture and transparency that came with Poser. |
| 15:03.31 | MSC386 | Which I modified. |
| 15:03.51 | klys | is there a good way to make fine-grained hair textures? |
| 15:03.52 | ^Migs^ | hair is really the hardest thing to get right |
| 15:04.01 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 15:04.12 | ^Migs^ | and the only good way is massive patience |
| 15:04.26 | ^Migs^ | or buy premade hair textures |
| 15:04.36 | klys | what sort of tool is used with this production? |
| 15:04.40 | MSC386 | Yes. Poser can do vertex/strand based hair. I worked with that a bit... |
| 15:04.42 | ^Migs^ | Photoshop |
| 15:04.48 | MSC386 | which one? |
| 15:05.05 | ^Migs^ | also modelling apps like 3dsmax or Maya |
| 15:05.15 | MSC386 | Yup. |
| 15:05.17 | ^Migs^ | then you import your models into Poser |
| 15:05.25 | ^Migs^ | set up all the morphs, etc |
| 15:05.26 | MSC386 | Yes. |
| 15:05.30 | klys | well, a texture is just 2d, so |
| 15:05.32 | ^Migs^ | big pain in the butt |
| 15:05.46 | ^Migs^ | most 3d artists look down on Poser users |
| 15:05.56 | MSC386 | I wish you could see this particular one... but since you guys are at work... |
| 15:06.07 | ^Migs^ | why? Nudity? |
| 15:06.12 | MSC386 | Yup. |
| 15:06.21 | ^Migs^ | k |
| 15:06.24 | MSC386 | I had forgotten how good it is. |
| 15:06.30 | klys | you would probably want, say, a group of strands in alignment that can turn any direction |
| 15:06.35 | ^Migs^ | blur out the offending parts :) |
| 15:07.07 | MSC386 | A friend of mine who is a conventional artist really liked it... She thought it was cool... |
| 15:07.30 | klys | and then make it so they are shuffled out as yoy make it smaller |
| 15:07.34 | klys | s/oy/ou/ |
| 15:07.59 | MSC386 | Hold on, that's a good idea... |
| 15:08.30 | ^Migs^ | http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&t=399499 |
| 15:09.02 | ^Migs^ | check that one out |
| 15:10.05 | MSC386 | That's cool. |
| 15:10.56 | ^Migs^ | this is a neat model, too: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&t=466403 |
| 15:12.28 | klys | nice fingernails. I realized the one before it wasn't a photo when I looked close at the hair |
| 15:12.57 | ^Migs^ | yeah, not the best alpha matte |
| 15:13.33 | MSC386 | Oh my... And who did that one? |
| 15:14.48 | klys | Max Edwin Wahyudi, Indonesia, or so the page would claim |
| 15:15.08 | tristanbob_ | herlo: nice question about favorite editor |
| 15:15.16 | tristanbob_ | I appreciate humor in a registration form |
| 15:15.47 | tristanbob_ | I like how there is only one choice - VIM - and it is a required field |
| 15:16.00 | ^Migs^ | http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&t=459590 |
| 15:17.54 | MSC386 | I've uploaded another image for you Migs. |
| 15:18.24 | ^Migs^ | http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&t=469909 |
| 15:18.33 | klys | it's just teeth, bones, claws, scales, and horns |
| 15:18.52 | MSC386 | That rocked. |
| 15:19.19 | MSC386 | Check this out : http://www.msc386.com/Download/Images/CandaceNudeBlurredMSCLogo.jpg |
| 15:19.30 | MSC386 | This also was done some years ago... |
| 15:19.42 | MSC386 | Hair is not realistic, but I like the lighting. |
| 15:20.02 | MSC386 | The logo is my own... I was just messing around. |
| 15:20.13 | ^Migs^ | cool |
| 15:20.41 | MSC386 | Yeah, I like it. |
| 15:21.25 | klys | huh, it's very realistic except the obvious parts |
| 15:21.36 | klys | anyway, was that done with lightwave? |
| 15:21.50 | MSC386 | Me? |
| 15:21.56 | MSC386 | Poser and Bryce. |
| 15:22.01 | klys | ok |
| 15:22.05 | klys | I've seen bryce around |
| 15:22.16 | klys | mostly for doing mountains and canyons |
| 15:22.25 | levi | I played with a warez copy of Poser for a couple of days. |
| 15:22.32 | MSC386 | I've got Bryce 3D, Bryce 4 and 5. I'm not sure about getting 6 yet. |
| 15:23.01 | levi | Computer artistry isn't really my thing. |
| 15:23.05 | klys | what do you use linux for (I assume you have it) |
| 15:23.09 | *** join/#utah calvarez (n=Hhhhh@lawn-128-61-126-8.lawn.gatech.edu) |
| 15:23.13 | klys | MSC386: ? |
| 15:23.25 | MSC386 | Yes? |
| 15:23.32 | klys | linux |
| 15:23.52 | calvarez | MSC386, use linux |
| 15:23.56 | MSC386 | I haven't used LinUX that much, Sinuhe will tell you. |
| 15:24.02 | calvarez | no, use linux |
| 15:24.03 | ^Migs^ | LinUX? |
| 15:24.14 | calvarez | yes, linux |
| 15:24.17 | calvarez | ;) |
| 15:24.27 | klys | maya also can be obtained for linux |
| 15:24.32 | MSC386 | I have SusSE linux 6.3 and 9.1. |
| 15:24.40 | *** join/#utah ros (n=ros@c-67-182-245-248.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:24.42 | MSC386 | One is installed, the other isn't. |
| 15:24.47 | klys | of course, it doesn't matter tso much if you don't have it booted |
| 15:24.56 | MSC386 | Yup. |
| 15:24.58 | klys | s/ts/s/ |
| 15:25.04 | klys | haha |
| 15:25.08 | klys | I hate that bot |
| 15:25.14 | MSC386 | Yeah, I got it. |
| 15:25.26 | MSC386 | Nice little, bottie. |
| 15:25.38 | findlay | what is lInUX? |
| 15:26.01 | klys | so, suse has, your browser or anything important? |
| 15:26.04 | ^Migs^ | LiNuX |
| 15:26.33 | MSC386 | Yeah, that's more like it. |
| 15:26.46 | MSC386 | Wanna see a walk test I did with my Ballerina? |
| 15:26.54 | klys | makes it look like something from a cracker |
| 15:27.12 | klys | is it an animated gif? |
| 15:27.20 | klys | prolly not, is it an mjpeg? |
| 15:27.55 | findlay | strongbad has all the animations I need |
| 15:28.23 | MSC386 | Unfortunately it's an AVI... |
| 15:28.32 | klys | you probably knew about mjpegtools, I just thought I'd bring up that this is a useful set of programs |
| 15:29.40 | klys | avi: ffmpeg ? |
| 15:29.52 | MSC386 | I've never used that app, to be honest... |
| 15:30.08 | MSC386 | Here is the URL : http://www.msc386.com/Download/MultiMedia/AVI/KatherineBallerinaProto12DWalkTest.AVI |
| 15:30.23 | klys | n1ce |
| 15:30.25 | MSC386 | This also was for a client. |
| 15:30.37 | MSC386 | Thanks. Needs work though... |
| 15:31.41 | MSC386 | Migs, did you get to see it? |
| 15:31.47 | ^Migs^ | sec |
| 15:32.14 | klys | so, after this she probably does a flip, I'm guessing |
| 15:33.29 | MSC386 | Not yet, I haven't choreographed anything else. |
| 15:34.06 | herlo | tristanbob_: you like that? |
| 15:34.17 | tristanbob_ | yah - made me smile |
| 15:34.18 | herlo | tristanbob_: you're welcome |
| 15:34.20 | herlo | :) |
| 15:34.30 | MSC386 | Man, I wish I had my own motion capture studio... that would be fun. And make choreography alot easier. |
| 15:34.47 | ^Migs^ | do you outsource that part of it? |
| 15:34.58 | MSC386 | No, I do it by hand. |
| 15:35.00 | ^Migs^ | there's a big motion capture studio in Utah. I forget what it's called though |
| 15:35.16 | MSC386 | I wish I had the money for it. |
| 15:35.28 | ^Migs^ | is it Mantis Motion? |
| 15:35.34 | ^Migs^ | yeah, no kidding. It's pricey stuff. |
| 15:35.40 | MSC386 | Yup. |
| 15:36.40 | ^Migs^ | you can set up a pretty effective studio for about $10,000 though |
| 15:37.34 | MSC386 | I once had that kind of money --- once... |
| 15:38.43 | *** join/#utah markl__ (n=mark@c-24-10-214-91.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:39.56 | MSC386 | Check this out... |
| 15:39.58 | MSC386 | http://www.msc386.com/MultiMedia/QuickTime/VallesMarineris(web).mov |
| 15:40.11 | MSC386 | I''m kind of proud of this one... |
| 15:40.23 | MSC386 | Valles Marineris on Mars... |
| 15:41.18 | MSC386 | I used Laser Altimeter Data from Mars Global Surveyor to create a fly over the Valles Marineris region on Mars. |
| 15:41.48 | MSC386 | I still have some more work to do with that one. I that mostly in Bryce. |
| 15:44.10 | MSC386 | I actually did one where I have one of my characters talking, but I don't have it on this system.... it's backed up somewhere on a CD. |
| 15:44.25 | klys | it seems surprisingly plateau'd at the same top level |
| 15:45.20 | MSC386 | Yes, the altude of the camera is constant, I wanted to keep it simple. |
| 15:45.28 | klys | so did you put in topography data? |
| 15:45.40 | klys | was it in some kind of GIS format? |
| 15:45.55 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 15:46.20 | MSC386 | Yes. I got it from NASA. |
| 15:47.10 | MSC386 | Actually it was pre-converted into an Altitude map, which I converted into a Bump Map. |
| 15:48.20 | MSC386 | Let's see, here's one I did, just to see if I could do it... It was some years ago, and I was new to animating... I used Adobe After Effects to make it grainy. |
| 15:48.26 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (i=route@nat/redhat/x-4c249ebb6034c044) |
| 15:48.28 | MSC386 | Sinuhe has seen it many times. |
| 15:50.20 | MSC386 | It's a bit of a download thouigh, 25MB. |
| 15:50.26 | klys | big deal |
| 15:50.40 | klys | I still like that one from indonesia |
| 15:51.01 | klys | and your background leaves on the second one |
| 15:51.27 | klys | and I'm sure there's a lot more floating around, matte art |
| 15:51.44 | klys | have you seen the algonquin project, let me find it |
| 15:52.04 | MSC386 | I haven't. |
| 15:53.04 | MSC386 | Here it is : http://www.msc386.com/MultiMedia/AVI/MSCIntro.avi |
| 15:53.26 | MSC386 | I was messing around with a 3D version of my logo... |
| 15:56.06 | klys | the Algonquin Project is at: http://www.cgchannel.com/forum/viewthread?thread=4785 |
| 15:56.14 | MSC386 | I'm going there, hold on... |
| 15:56.20 | klys | (85%) |
| 15:56.34 | MSC386 | Sweet. |
| 15:58.06 | klys | your logo, how...3D |
| 15:58.40 | klys | what do you recommend for a .wad file format reader/writer library? |
| 15:59.25 | klys | it would just have to be standard enough to have been used in some form before |
| 15:59.32 | MSC386 | I originally created the logo in Simply 3D2, but found that app couldn't export to any useable 3D format, so I re-created it in an App called Amorphium, and then exported it to Bryce. |
| 15:59.51 | MSC386 | .wad? I've never enountered that before. |
| 15:59.51 | klys | I mean, a usable 3D format, a .wad or similar |
| 16:00.09 | klys | something to build a building with |
| 16:00.09 | MSC386 | An App called PolyTrans. |
| 16:00.30 | MSC386 | Translates and converted different 3D formats. |
| 16:00.32 | klys | though it's an app, so I probably couldn't link anything to it |
| 16:00.58 | klys | I |
| 16:01.06 | klys | 'm thinking about maya but for a file |
| 16:01.10 | MSC386 | Check this out, one my first cloth sim's. |
| 16:01.17 | klys | I mean, mesa but for a file |
| 16:01.33 | MSC386 | http://www.msc386.com/MultiMedia/AVI/USFlagWave.avi |
| 16:01.46 | MSC386 | I had to create a flag waving for a client. |
| 16:01.53 | MSC386 | I used |
| 16:01.59 | MSC386 | Poser 5 for it. |
| 16:05.57 | klys | do you know about a file format? |
| 16:06.06 | MSC386 | I admit it, I love doing CG. |
| 16:06.20 | klys | I love looking at 2D CG |
| 16:06.23 | MSC386 | I'm not sure I understand your question. |
| 16:06.45 | klys | I mean, one that is used by the program you mentioned, polytrans |
| 16:07.02 | elg | i know about a file format |
| 16:07.07 | klys | and is readable by a library you know of like opengl |
| 16:07.23 | klys | or can be loaded without a lot of coding |
| 16:07.55 | klys | I just want to get something onto the screen like you did with your logo pic, using my own graphics library (allegro) |
| 16:08.02 | klys | which now supports opengl |
| 16:08.17 | klys | you get? |
| 16:08.25 | MSC386 | Yes. |
| 16:08.37 | herlo | ~simpsons MSC386 |
| 16:08.37 | ibot | ACTION sends MSC386 chasing a rolling pink donut down the hill screaming, "its still good!, its still good!" |
| 16:08.55 | MSC386 | VRML uses OpenGL, Bryce can use OpenGL. |
| 16:09.25 | MSC386 | The problem with VRML is mesh and texture quality. Although I like VRML. |
| 16:09.26 | klys | so, vrml and bryce are 3d formats of which you are aware, and are rather standardized |
| 16:09.45 | MSC386 | Yes, although I'm sure there are others. |
| 16:10.26 | MSC386 | Poser 6 just recently became OpenGL capable. It allows for faster renders. That was one of the main complaints of the earlier versions of Poser. |
| 16:11.09 | MSC386 | iBot needs to be nuked. |
| 16:11.43 | MSC386 | Did you check out the flag? |
| 16:11.51 | klys | so, since vrml isn't the cool (does it support mirrors or glowing objects?) ... |
| 16:11.55 | klys | yes I saw the flag |
| 16:12.19 | MSC386 | A small piece of work, but I like it. |
| 16:12.41 | klys | maybe I can use something other than libopenvrml5 or etc. |
| 16:12.46 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@66.60.228.140) |
| 16:12.47 | MSC386 | That "Grace of Snow" featured in CG Society is awesome. |
| 16:13.26 | MSC386 | I use a plugin for IE that can render VRML. It's called CosmoPlayer. It was originally made by SGI. |
| 16:13.42 | MSC386 | I consider to be one of the best VRML clients out there. |
| 16:13.59 | MSC386 | Even though SGI no longer supports it. |
| 16:14.00 | klys | I had IE running on wine here once recently, but it uses gecko instead of it's own engine |
| 16:14.01 | sinuhe | Except that it's for IE. |
| 16:14.09 | MSC386 | Yup. |
| 16:14.24 | MSC386 | It will also work with Netscape. |
| 16:14.30 | klys | I think ies4linux is different |
| 16:14.57 | MSC386 | I got a version of it working with Netscape 4 on MAC OS 9, but it's a bit buggy. |
| 16:15.13 | klys | so, to go with another 3d format besides vrml: |
| 16:15.25 | klys | a lot of games use variations of .wad |
| 16:15.45 | klys | and maybe there is a standardized format |
| 16:16.05 | MSC386 | The reason why I like SGI's VRML client is because SGI was one of the contributors to the VRML standard so it made sense that they made a client optimized for it. |
| 16:16.20 | MSC386 | Yes. |
| 16:16.40 | herlo | ~verbose MSC386 |
| 16:16.41 | klys | anyway, we already have opengl, and d3d so is there a file loader library |
| 16:16.55 | MSC386 | Although, I know nothing of .wad, admittedly, I'm behind tbe times on that one. |
| 16:17.05 | klys | k |
| 16:17.07 | MSC386 | Yup. |
| 16:17.56 | MSC386 | I guess I like VRML is that you could create your scene files in a variety of ways, and that the standard was open and free. |
| 16:18.17 | MSC386 | You could create VRML with just a text editor or any 3D program. |
| 16:19.01 | MSC386 | When VRML first came out though, it wasn't embraced because the systems at the time didn't have enough memory and were too slow. |
| 16:19.16 | klys | I just saw mm3d |
| 16:19.37 | klys | though mm3d is for models not buildings |
| 16:20.15 | MSC386 | But since that has also changed, I'd like to create VRML 3.0. There were high hopes that VRML would be the main vehicle to create 3D Content on the Web, and not be proprietary. |
| 16:20.33 | MSC386 | mm3d? I've never used it. Tell me more about it. |
| 16:21.13 | klys | well, it works with, like milkshape 3d textured models, triangle textures, and you can use it in opengl |
| 16:21.42 | MSC386 | Sweet -- sounds like alot of fun. |
| 16:21.54 | klys | also .lwo you've seen those |
| 16:24.22 | MSC386 | Yes, I have. I think LightWave uses opengl internally -- I'm not sure... |
| 16:26.29 | MSC386 | I was just looking at that "Grace of the Snow" image again... Someday... Someday I'll know enough to do something that cool... |
| 16:27.23 | MSC386 | You know, one the cool things about Poser 5 aand 6 is that you can have script/program control over your modeling and rendering. |
| 16:27.33 | levi | Any of you Utah County people want to help me out to see if my inbound voip number is working? |
| 16:27.57 | MSC386 | It has an internal Python parsing engine. I haven't used it yet, though. |
| 16:28.01 | klys | you can msg me if you would like |
| 16:28.11 | MSC386 | I'm in SLC County, sorry. |
| 16:30.15 | MSC386 | I think I'm gonna join that CGSociety Web Site. |
| 16:30.44 | MSC386 | Their Web Site looks first rate. |
| 16:33.16 | ^Migs^ | so it HAS to be good |
| 16:33.27 | MSC386 | Something like that. |
| 16:33.43 | klys | closest I could find was http://features.cgsociety.org/press_releases/2004_5/discreet/tdat_dt1_lg.jpg |
| 16:34.01 | MSC386 | I think I could learn alot from those guys. |
| 16:34.27 | MSC386 | From the "Day After Tomorrow"? |
| 16:34.31 | klys | k |
| 16:34.34 | *** join/#utah sinuhe_ (n=sinuhe@66.60.228.140) |
| 16:34.36 | MSC386 | That's what it looks like... very cool. |
| 16:35.12 | MSC386 | Migs, I'm sorry I finally saw the Algonquin image... very impressive. |
| 16:36.03 | ^Migs^ | it's possible |
| 16:36.09 | ^Migs^ | many of the people who post there work on movies and TV |
| 16:36.37 | ^Migs^ | you'll often see some CG work put up for in-production movies |
| 16:36.47 | ^Migs^ | asking for comments and criticism |
| 16:38.36 | MSC386 | I think it's very cool. |
| 16:39.13 | MSC386 | Migs, your work is quite impressive, you should do more of it. |
| 16:39.19 | Tene | levi: I'm available, if nobody else has helped you yet. |
| 16:40.06 | ^Migs^ | nah |
| 16:40.20 | ^Migs^ | I got discouraged after I lost everything |
| 16:40.26 | ^Migs^ | plus I don't have time for that anymore |
| 16:40.55 | ^Migs^ | maybe on the side, I dunno |
| 16:41.40 | MSC386 | You've got some real talent, you should use it. |
| 16:42.11 | ^Migs^ | if I had the opportunity I might |
| 16:44.40 | MSC386 | When one has the talent, you create opportunity. Or so I've heard... :-) |
| 16:44.51 | ^Migs^ | uh |
| 16:44.52 | ^Migs^ | okay |
| 16:45.00 | MSC386 | Yup. |
| 16:45.08 | MSC386 | That's all I know. |
| 16:45.11 | sargun_screen | yay |
| 16:45.13 | sargun_screen | its ^Migs^ |
| 16:45.21 | ^Migs^ | INORITE! |
| 16:45.27 | ^Migs^ | thank goodness I'm here |
| 16:45.48 | sargun_screen | Did you guys fix your server |
| 16:46.09 | ^Migs^ | what server? |
| 16:46.13 | ^Migs^ | who? |
| 16:46.24 | MSC386 | inorite? |
| 16:46.43 | MSC386 | Okay, I'm lost. |
| 16:47.07 | ^Migs^ | lolnoob |
| 16:47.26 | MSC386 | :-P |
| 16:48.17 | MSC386 | I was just looking at the news -- now why would someone swim for a kilometer in the Arctic Ocean? That just seems a little insane to me. |
| 16:49.54 | ^Migs^ | fun and profit |
| 16:50.41 | MSC386 | Yeah. |
| 16:51.12 | mrpull- | levi: yikes... you didn't get stung by sunrocket did you? |
| 16:51.54 | levi | mrpull-: No. |
| 16:51.59 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 16:52.11 | mrpull- | several months ago I was tempted by their cheap service |
| 16:52.27 | mrpull- | guess I lucked out skipping on them |
| 16:53.02 | mrpull- | did you get the help you need. i've gotta UT county # and a SLC # if you still need testing |
| 16:54.43 | levi | Well, I got the verification I needed that inbound calling stopped working. :) |
| 16:54.56 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@h46055150.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 16:55.02 | mrpull- | doh. I guess that is a good first step |
| 16:55.03 | mheath | Morning all. |
| 16:55.12 | mrpull- | and jsmith is just the guy to help :-/ |
| 16:55.14 | levi | I'm thinking I triggered some sort of DOS-blocker or something by making a ton of calls to it last night. |
| 16:55.29 | levi | It's nothing I can fix; I don't get IAX traffic at all. |
| 16:55.51 | jsmith | OK, I missed the description of the problem... what's going on? |
| 16:56.00 | mheath | hmm, inbound calling stopped working too? :P |
| 16:56.00 | mrpull- | jsmith: i was joking |
| 16:56.14 | jsmith | Ah... |
| 16:56.33 | levi | My inbound number says "We're sorry, your call did not go through. Please try again later." |
| 16:56.49 | mrpull- | anytime there is a VOIP problem, it seems jsmith is the guy to call... but maybe not it this case |
| 16:57.09 | jsmith | levi: First things first... when inbound calls come in, they match on a user in iax.conf (or sip.conf) |
| 16:57.17 | jsmith | levi: What context does that user point at in the dialplan? |
| 16:57.18 | levi | jsmith: They don't come in, that's the problem. |
| 16:57.41 | levi | jsmith: I have iax2 debug turned on and I see absolutely nothing when people dial in. |
| 16:57.50 | levi | jsmith: It's being stopped somewhere upstream of my asterisk server. |
| 16:57.55 | jsmith | levi: Oh... let's check something else then. |
| 16:58.09 | jsmith | levi: Are you registered with your provider? |
| 16:58.21 | jsmith | "iax2 show reg<tab>" |
| 16:58.43 | levi | Hmm, nope. |
| 16:59.15 | jsmith | OK... is it possible your IP address has changed between last night and today? |
| 16:59.26 | bonez39 | is there any way to set a proxy for ports...for example if I want to run some server... but don't want to give up the 80 and 443 and other web or email ports 25, 110 and such...is there any way to manage that.. so that an existing server on a network..can retain those ports and the new server, on another machine...can have traffic to it thus directed? |
| 16:59.42 | levi | jsmith: I believe they set it up to forward to my domain name, and it's up to date. |
| 17:00.18 | jsmith | levi: I can try sending you some traffic if you like... but I'm on a crummy internet connection right now, so the audio will be terrible. |
| 17:01.37 | mrpull- | bonez39: i'd suggest getting another ip address if possible and routing/nat'ing as usual |
| 17:02.36 | levi | jsmith: Well, if my ip had changed, my dns would be out of date because I don't currently have a working auto-updater. I'm pretty sure it's the same. |
| 17:06.32 | mrpull- | bonez39: who is the ISP? any reason you cant get another IP? |
| 17:07.19 | sjansen | ~rlart |
| 17:07.20 | ibot | takes large quantities of Krispy Kream donuts and stuffs them one after another down redbeard2's throat until redbeard2 puts on 150lbs |
| 17:09.09 | MSC386 | I hate Krispy Kreme Donuts... |
| 17:09.30 | MSC386 | They just don't taste all that great. |
| 17:09.56 | MSC386 | Now Winchell's... Those are some good donuts... |
| 17:10.20 | MSC386 | WalMart's aren't half bad either. |
| 17:12.31 | bonez39 | they have almost removed all the great donut places here in Salt Lake City...replaced by delies and begel places.. |
| 17:13.59 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@66.60.228.140) |
| 17:14.08 | MSC386 | Yup. I remember when there actually used to be a Dunkin' Donuts in SLC. When I lived out East, there were Dunkin' Donuts everywhere... |
| 17:14.48 | MSC386 | Chocolate Frosted Glazed Donuts -- MMMM..... |
| 17:15.44 | sjansen | There is no donut but sour cream cake and chocolate sour cream cake is its perfection. |
| 17:16.00 | MSC386 | I suppose that would be true also. |
| 17:16.16 | jsmith | sjansen: Don't forget the crullers |
| 17:16.24 | MSC386 | A donut is to the taste buds of the partaker.... or something like that. |
| 17:16.33 | MSC386 | Crullers are good too. |
| 17:16.37 | Jayce^ | Cinnamon Cup with cream cheese frosting from Sluy's Bakery... best ever... |
| 17:16.58 | MSC386 | Uh oh... All this talk of Donuts is going too far.... |
| 17:18.08 | sinuhe | msc386: With that much typing, I'm surprised you haven't blown out your wrists. Save it for the hacking. :-) |
| 17:18.39 | MSC386 | Yeah... Gotta do that. |
| 17:19.23 | MSC386 | MMMM.... Donuts.... |
| 17:20.30 | MSC386 | Somebody is doing some roofing next door --- that sure does smell nasty. |
| 17:22.37 | MSC386 | Well, I'm gonnat bail... time to take a break and get some lunch -- and a little rest. |
| 17:22.42 | MSC386 | See ya all... |
| 17:22.53 | sinuhe | Laters |
| 17:22.58 | MSC386 | Laters.... |
| 17:24.02 | mheath | ~lart GPL v3 |
| 17:24.02 | ibot | strangles GPL v3 with a 9-pole serial cable |
| 17:35.57 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi_ (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-117-1.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 17:37.13 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi__ (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-117-1.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 17:39.21 | mheath | Stupid GPLv3, stupid Stallman |
| 17:39.27 | mheath | ~lart the term "tivoization" |
| 17:39.27 | ibot | pries the term "tivoization"'s back open with a screwdriver and flashes a new bootldr to the term "tivoization" |
| 17:39.39 | mheath | lmao |
| 17:39.39 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi__ (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-164-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 17:39.45 | mheath | ibot: appropriate. |
| 17:40.05 | mheath | ~fix Lakshmi__'s insanely horrible connection |
| 17:40.06 | ibot | ACTION opens the hood of Lakshmi__'s insanely horrible connection , looks inside and says "that'll be 500 dollars." |
| 17:40.44 | *** join/#utah hatul30 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-da8498a3b13055b9) |
| 17:42.40 | *** part/#utah Lakshmi__ (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-164-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 17:46.13 | mheath | Trying to find a good rootbeer recipe that doesn't use extract.. |
| 17:47.50 | sjansen | 5 oz root, 1 can bear, blend for 15 minutes, bury blender in back yard so your mother never finds out what you did with the blender |
| 17:48.10 | mheath | thanks, sjansen. |
| 17:48.47 | maquis | sjansen: where'd you find the canned bear? |
| 17:51.10 | *** join/#utah jsmith_ (n=jsmith@h46055150.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 17:55.36 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 17:58.26 | *** join/#utah klys (n=admini@72.8.101.65) |
| 18:00.41 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/lakshmi) |
| 18:08.04 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-118-73.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 18:10.07 | mheath | Apparently its hard to make old fashioned root beer anymore |
| 18:10.28 | mheath | As what used to be the main flavoring ingredient is now outlawed in the USA, as it's carcinogenic |
| 18:12.07 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@66.60.228.140) |
| 18:13.07 | *** join/#utah dkelson (n=dkelson@208.60.177.61) |
| 18:13.44 | jsmith | mheath: You can't just buy a bottle of root beer extract at the grocery store? |
| 18:15.11 | mheath | jsmith: Thats not homemade. |
| 18:16.30 | jsmith | mheath: What's not homemade about it? |
| 18:16.45 | jsmith | mheath: My family has been making homemade rootbeer that way since before you were born |
| 18:18.05 | mheath | It's artificial flavoring based off modern root beer |
| 18:18.18 | mheath | I'm looking for natural homemade traditional rootbeer |
| 18:18.28 | mheath | Found a recipe, but getting the ingredients would be impossilbe |
| 18:19.02 | mheath | 1 cake, compressed yeast; 5 pounds, sugar; 2 ounces, sassafras root; 1 ounce, hops or ginger root; 2 ounces, juniper berries; 4 gallons, water; 1 ounce, dandelion root; 2 ounces, wintergreen |
| 18:20.57 | mheath | emcnabb: I'm pretty sure its a common plant, I'm not sure what part of it you use, though :P |
| 18:21.30 | mheath | OK, apparently you can get dried juniper berries at teh supermarket, with the spices.... |
| 18:21.36 | mheath | Dandelion roots should be easy to get.. |
| 18:22.33 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@c-76-23-34-128.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:24.40 | mheath | Come tot hink of it, though... |
| 18:24.45 | mheath | this recipe is from 1912 |
| 18:24.50 | mheath | and, to be honest, kind of scares me :P |
| 18:25.46 | mheath | I might just make some root beer wtih extract for now |
| 18:36.23 | emcnabb | mheath: I've boiled up the roots before, added a little sugar and dry ice, and it tastes somewhat like root beer |
| 18:40.58 | mheath | emcnabb: roots? Hmm. |
| 18:41.15 | mheath | Still not sure where I'd get wintergreen |
| 18:41.24 | mheath | For that matter, still not sure what wintergreen is, exactly |
| 18:42.49 | levi | It's a mint plant. |
| 18:42.59 | levi | You could probably find one in a nursery. |
| 18:43.25 | mheath | this rootbeer actually sounds good though |
| 18:43.51 | mheath | I'm worried my predisposition for what rootbeer tastes like might mean I preceive it to taste nasty if it tastes different at all |
| 18:44.51 | levi | http://laurentiancenter.com/content/view/196/67/ |
| 18:55.10 | *** join/#utah jlund (n=jlund@204.13.47.22) |
| 18:56.24 | jlund | I just ssh'd into my home desktop machine and I'm having a strange error with nearly every command that I run: "-bash: /usr/bin/top: Input/output error" |
| 18:56.27 | jlund | Any ideas? |
| 18:57.24 | levi | That is indeed strange. |
| 18:57.38 | *** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.189.162) |
| 18:58.02 | levi | Did you do anything that might have caused this to happen? |
| 18:59.31 | jlund | Nope, I'm just on vacation |
| 18:59.50 | jlund | Maybe the systems have gotten too hot since I've been gone? |
| 19:00.15 | mrpull- | jlund: AC off while gone? |
| 19:00.54 | mrpull- | my home was 90+ last weekend when I left for 3 days |
| 19:01.06 | mrpull- | I've seen lots of computer gear fail at that temp |
| 19:01.26 | mrpull- | maybe a disk has gone belly up |
| 19:01.31 | jlund | Yeah, I left the AC off. |
| 19:01.38 | jlund | I forgot to turn the computers off too |
| 19:02.06 | mrpull- | is there more than one disk? |
| 19:02.17 | jlund | No, just one in my main computer |
| 19:03.18 | mrpull- | cross your fingers and hope for the best |
| 19:03.22 | mheath | levi: that makes it sond like some random plant in the forest, not something you'd ever find at a nursery...hmm. |
| 19:03.28 | mheath | still, I might look |
| 19:04.03 | jlund | What really sucks is I can't even issue the shutdown command without getting the I/O error |
| 19:04.07 | mrpull- | mheath: we used to each spearmint leaves at my grandpas farm when I was a kid |
| 19:04.20 | levi | mheath: If you do a search on 'wintergreen plant' you'll find plenty of nursery links. |
| 19:04.39 | levi | Might not be a common nursery plant, but you should be able to find one somewhere. |
| 19:04.56 | mrpull- | they do grow wild... but I have a hunch that lots of plants were found in the wild before they were found in a nursery |
| 19:05.26 | mheath | mrpull-: spearmint != wintergreen, is it? |
| 19:05.42 | mrpull- | not at all... both are wild mint plants tho |
| 19:05.42 | levi | Dude, haven't you ever chewed gum? |
| 19:05.47 | mheath | I have no idea, and I'm going totally off what I know about bubble gum flavorings :P |
| 19:05.50 | levi | Or eaten mints? |
| 19:06.00 | mheath | mrpull-: ah. You confused me |
| 19:06.03 | levi | Totally different flavors. :) |
| 19:06.04 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@unaffiliated/sontek) |
| 19:06.05 | mheath | I know spearmint is common |
| 19:06.30 | mheath | Apparently boiling down birch bark produces similar flavorings |
| 19:06.44 | mheath | ~lart herbs |
| 19:06.44 | ibot | whips out his power stapler and staples herbs's foot to the floor |
| 19:06.47 | levi | Stupid questar webapp appears to be down. |
| 19:06.57 | levi | I don't want to have to talk to more people on the phone. |
| 19:07.02 | mheath | OK, be back in a few moments.. |
| 19:08.04 | mrpull- | jlund: haven't trained your cat to hit the power switch in emergencies? |
| 19:10.13 | rsimpkins | Has anyone here worked with large partition sizes ( > 3TB). |
| 19:10.58 | ^Migs^ | we only have a 2.5TB drive |
| 19:11.21 | rsimpkins | I've got a 6TB volume I'm working with... kinda frustrating. |
| 19:13.25 | jlund | mrpull-: Allergic to cat :) |
| 19:13.35 | pr0le | what's the problem, rsimpkins? |
| 19:13.53 | rsimpkins | pr0le: speed |
| 19:13.58 | ^Migs^ | ah |
| 19:14.38 | pr0le | what's the controller? |
| 19:15.47 | rsimpkins | HP p400 I believe. |
| 19:15.52 | rsimpkins | SATA |
| 19:16.09 | pr0le | is write-cache enabled? |
| 19:16.20 | rsimpkins | pr0le: Yes. |
| 19:16.56 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 19:16.57 | pr0le | and have you run bonnie on it or anything? |
| 19:18.29 | pr0le | not that bonnie helps, but it generally helps your case when you have to RMA |
| 19:19.22 | mheath | emcnabb is the one that lives in NC, right? |
| 19:19.30 | rsimpkins | I think it is ext3. |
| 19:20.07 | mheath | ext3 isn't a great filesystem for huge volumes, from what I remember |
| 19:20.41 | pr0le | ext3 is not the best, but we use it just fine |
| 19:20.43 | rsimpkins | Yeah, I was hoping for proof though. |
| 19:21.38 | mrpull- | mheath: yeah... i think he is in the triangle |
| 19:21.39 | pr0le | I was able to RMA a controller because I could benchmark it with bonnie on one system and on a similar system and the difference was huge |
| 19:22.09 | mheath | Won't be able to get any of that saffras stuff locally..he said theres some near him, but apparently its only in the eastern US. |
| 19:22.18 | mrpull- | rsimpkins: how many spindles in the filesystem? |
| 19:22.33 | mrpull- | mheath: ebay |
| 19:23.02 | rsimpkins | mrpull-: 10 |
| 19:23.02 | mrpull- | maybe you could buy some 5 fingered variants too |
| 19:23.31 | mrpull- | rsimpkins: big files / small files... what is the app? |
| 19:23.44 | rsimpkins | mrpull-: Datawarehousing. |
| 19:23.54 | rsimpkins | That isn't the issue though. |
| 19:24.14 | mrpull- | mostly reads with seldom writes? |
| 19:24.18 | rsimpkins | The issue I believe is that ext3 is totally lame with large volumes. |
| 19:24.31 | mrpull- | ahhh... could be it. |
| 19:24.48 | rsimpkins | Or our controller is just total junk. |
| 19:24.52 | rsimpkins | Which wouldn't surprise me. |
| 19:25.04 | pr0le | rsimpkins: you could switch to XFS, which I believe is supposed to be the best for large files |
| 19:25.12 | mrpull- | does the controller have an option to optimize reads over writes |
| 19:25.19 | Supaplex | xfs has no resize support :( |
| 19:25.27 | rsimpkins | pr0le: Would you bet your job on XFS? |
| 19:25.33 | pr0le | ha, no |
| 19:25.51 | pr0le | never used it. I just did a little research when we were having problems with our controller |
| 19:26.12 | rsimpkins | Since this is in an enterprise storing critical data, it has to be very solid. |
| 19:26.26 | pr0le | and if I had to rebuild the machine, it's not mission critical necessarily, it's just nightly SQL server backups |
| 19:26.31 | rsimpkins | So while xfs may be the answer, if it isn't highly reliable it is worthless. |
| 19:27.10 | pr0le | and we have servers that could take backups while a server was down, so that was nice for us |
| 19:27.29 | Tene | ext4! |
| 19:27.35 | Tene | totally a viable option! |
| 19:27.51 | pr0le | ha, yeah. I'd do XFS over ext4 at this point |
| 19:28.12 | Tene | there are some options you can tune on ext3 to increase performance for extreme cases. |
| 19:28.36 | mrpull- | what raid level is it? |
| 19:29.12 | rsimpkins | mrpull-: we started with 6, but that was pretty bad, so we went back to 5. |
| 19:29.32 | rsimpkins | mrpull-: throughput is fine - I'm concerned with the 100% iowait. |
| 19:29.36 | Supaplex | my backup volume uses 4mb blocks. mainly because it's littered with compressed dumps or tarballs. (huge files). works well for me. :) |
| 19:29.43 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@h46055150.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 19:29.50 | pr0le | our settings are these: blockdev - -setra 16384 /dev/sda |
| 19:33.12 | maquis | ok... question for people who use lds.org music: is there a way to get it to list all the mp3s for the children's songbook that have words? |
| 19:33.46 | maquis | i'm trying to use it through songbird, and i'm not getting what i want |
| 19:35.50 | findlay | ~convert 43.6 mi to km |
| 19:39.10 | findlay | well, it is done |
| 19:39.32 | mrpull- | rsimpkins: still looking for a KVM switch |
| 19:39.48 | mrpull- | i forgot I offered mine till now |
| 19:40.34 | findlay | maquis: you can stand to listen to those?! |
| 19:40.39 | mrpull- | it's a 4 port belkin F1DB104P. i could only dig up two sets of cables, but it is yours if you want it |
| 19:40.59 | findlay | the hymn ones almost make me want to cry |
| 19:41.16 | maquis | findlay: i need to learn a few of the primary songs... |
| 19:41.24 | findlay | oh |
| 19:41.34 | findlay | :) |
| 19:41.44 | rsimpkins | mrpull-: Yes! I keep forgetting. |
| 19:42.18 | maquis | plus, the primary songs are a bit better than the hymns ones... the kids aren't perfect singers, but they're little kids... |
| 19:48.11 | ^Migs^ | primary songs > hymns |
| 19:48.58 | maquis | ^Migs^: agreed |
| 20:01.30 | emcnabb | mheath: yeah, I'm in NC. I could send you some if you'd like, but it's probably not worth the shipping cost :-) |
| 20:02.00 | Supaplex | fungus: y0 |
| 20:02.27 | ^Migs^ | anyone who doesn't like primary songs is a jerk |
| 20:04.19 | bonez39 | ^Migs^: I prefer that they be sung IN PRIMARY though....not in Sacrament Mtg..... |
| 20:05.34 | *** join/#utah chadbryant (n=Administ@c-71-199-47-124.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 20:06.15 | maquis | bonez39: i like it when they get up and sing a song... |
| 20:06.21 | maquis | primary programs are the best |
| 20:06.31 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 20:06.34 | bonez39 | they are cool..I agree |
| 20:07.04 | chadbryant | kids singing is great |
| 20:07.12 | chadbryant | its when they get older that it gets annoying |
| 20:07.16 | sjansen | http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2007/07/17/understanding_engineers_feasibility |
| 20:07.17 | brac | [The Fishbowl: Understanding Engineers: Feasibility] |
| 20:07.32 | chadbryant | especially if it involves the Disney Channel |
| 20:08.13 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (i=route@nat/redhat/x-608bdc75433be59a) |
| 20:08.44 | maquis | chadbryant: ok.. true... |
| 20:09.11 | maquis | the older kids are a lot less cute to listen to |
| 20:09.11 | maquis | it's the little ones.. .the 4 and 5 year-olds |
| 20:09.11 | maquis | :) |
| 20:09.16 | chadbryant | I think "Hannah Montana" plays on an infinite loop in at least two circles of Hell |
| 20:10.31 | Supaplex | hahaha |
| 20:14.31 | rsimpkins | chadbryant: lol |
| 20:14.34 | maquis | sjansen: that's a very interesting article |
| 20:15.10 | bonez39 | what drives me nuts is the prerecorded symphonic tunes people sing to.....it says..we weren't persuasive enough to get someone to bang on the piano for us...so we have this cd instead... |
| 20:20.10 | chadbryant | I think a lot of music las lost its soul |
| 20:28.26 | mheath | I'm glad my niece and nephew have such sophisticated music tastes |
| 20:28.27 | bonez39 | chadbryant: do you SING OUT, during the hymns? I sing..and I pump up the volume..and it irritates me that so few others really sing....I don't sing over them..it's just that so many have no singing pride and they just refuse to lift their voices |
| 20:28.42 | mheath | Well, not true, my niece does lissten to "Hannah Montana" stuff.. |
| 20:28.47 | chadbryant | I haven't been to church in years |
| 20:28.59 | mheath | She likes a lot of other things, though |
| 20:29.15 | chadbryant | but I was a lead tenor in HS choir |
| 20:29.28 | mheath | My 3 (almost 4) year old nephews favorite band is the (highly edited/selective) Red Host Chili Peppers. |
| 20:30.14 | bonez39 | Red Host, eh? is this the Networked version of the Red HOT Chili Peppers? |
| 20:30.34 | mheath | OMG, someone made an extremely obvious typo on IRC |
| 20:30.38 | mheath | Has hell frozen over? |
| 20:30.46 | chadbryant | they went Linux last year |
| 20:30.47 | mheath | LOOK, EVERYONE |
| 20:30.55 | mheath | LETS MAKE A BIG DEAL ABOUT ONE TYPO |
| 20:30.56 | chadbryant | and are now the Red Hat Chili Peppers |
| 20:31.04 | mheath | IT'S NOT LIKE IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY |
| 20:31.28 | chadbryant | my oldest may be the only kid ever who has loaded an iPod with Hannah Montana *and* Motorhead |
| 20:31.39 | fozzmoo | chadbryant: I like that. |
| 20:31.46 | Jayce^ | wonder if Red Host competes with that local BlueHost company... |
| 20:31.59 | jsmith | Red vs. Blue? |
| 20:32.01 | mheath | chadbryant: Having a 3 year old listening to sophisticated contemporary alternative music is better than listening to things like that.. |
| 20:32.10 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: It's like red pill vs blue pill |
| 20:32.36 | mheath | anyway, I was going to call around to see about violin repairs....hmm |
| 20:33.31 | bonez39 | mheath: it was a funny typo...come on....no harm intended...alright? |
| 20:33.59 | mheath | I know. I was just joking / giving you a hard time back :) |
| 20:34.12 | mheath | THey'll probably charge me a fortune to repair this thing -.- |
| 20:37.01 | bonez39 | mheath: you play? how long? |
| 20:37.55 | mheath | bonez39: I'm thinking about learning |
| 20:38.11 | chadbryant | my oldest isn't 3 |
| 20:38.12 | mheath | Thought "cool, I have a violin, so it'd be free to give it a try" |
| 20:38.56 | mheath | That idea didn't resolve too well when it turned out that the violin, which had been in its case for several decades, apparently hadn't had the tension in the bows or the violin let out before storing |
| 20:39.00 | chadbryant | and his taste in music is far broader than the acts I named - those wto are justa hilarious contrast |
| 20:39.14 | mheath | Meaning that, all of the strings on the violin were broken |
| 20:39.22 | mheath | Both the bows were broken / snapped |
| 20:39.33 | chadbryant | you'd want it restrung anyway |
| 20:39.38 | mheath | And a wooden part on the violin is broken |
| 20:39.44 | mheath | Its a clean break and appears to have just been glued on... |
| 20:39.55 | mrpull- | fozzmoo: i'm taking in the SON spokane videos. much better than i expected. |
| 20:39.57 | mrpull- | good stuff |
| 20:40.16 | fozzmoo | mrpull: heh. You expected crap? :) |
| 20:40.31 | mrpull- | i'll have to get my brother in law to go next time they perform in slc |
| 20:40.37 | mrpull- | expected mediocre |
| 20:40.46 | fozzmoo | Unfortunately, the band as it was last year broke up in March |
| 20:41.07 | fozzmoo | Tim, the lead guitarist, has taken the FloydShow and is trying to get it going again. |
| 20:41.35 | fozzmoo | Matt (keyboards/guitar), Thom (bass), and Daryn (drums) are continuing as Sons Of Nothing doing mostly originals. |
| 20:41.39 | mheath | Apparently its the Bridge thats broken off. |
| 20:42.03 | mheath | So a probably very expensive repair stands between me and my "free" new instrument to learn :P |
| 20:42.19 | mrpull- | i could understand a bunch of talented guys wanting to go beyond being a coverband |
| 20:42.32 | fozzmoo | Well, SoN began doing originals... |
| 20:42.45 | mrpull- | and i heard of them because of the floyd tribute :) |
| 20:42.47 | fozzmoo | but when they threw Floyd stuff into their sets, the "crowd went wild." |
| 20:43.02 | chadbryant | every band should have at least one setlist of covers that they are really good at |
| 20:43.16 | chadbryant | you never know when you'll need something to fill in a gap |
| 20:43.21 | fozzmoo | chadbryant: Not a bad idea. It helps people know your influences too. |
| 20:44.04 | fozzmoo | I've been working on editing video (multiple cameras) from their show at The Depot in SLC last August. |
| 20:44.04 | mrpull- | yeah. i generally dig a unique twist on an old standard. |
| 20:44.25 | fozzmoo | There are about five original songs from that show on YouTube. |
| 20:44.30 | fozzmoo | I've been working on the Floyd stuff. |
| 20:44.37 | jsmith | mheath: Violin bridges are quite easy to replace |
| 20:44.44 | fozzmoo | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4oOlqGu9kY |
| 20:44.49 | fozzmoo | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzF5GfV_SOE |
| 20:44.56 | fozzmoo | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nWDCiFiq2o |
| 20:45.03 | fozzmoo | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6o4mraKVVM |
| 20:45.16 | fozzmoo | The lighting at The Depot was nowhere near as impressive as Spokane. |
| 20:45.41 | fozzmoo | They told me they had the lighting console programmed for the show and then it "lost its memory." So, they had to wing it. |
| 20:46.17 | fozzmoo | So, boring lights... but good performances. |
| 20:46.48 | chadbryant | yeah, the musicianship should overcome any lighting issues |
| 20:46.56 | fozzmoo | Oh, those YouTube links are Breathe, On The Run, Time, and Have A Cigar, respectively. |
| 20:47.16 | *** part/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 20:47.17 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 20:47.23 | fozzmoo | I'm really happy with how the video for Time came out. |
| 20:47.46 | mrpull- | watching breath now.. one of my favorite floyd tracks |
| 20:47.54 | mheath | jsmith: Could I just glue it myself? |
| 20:47.56 | mheath | Its a clean break |
| 20:48.04 | mheath | I can see exactly where it was glued before.. |
| 20:48.05 | mrpull- | you've done a nice job cutting it up |
| 20:48.29 | herlo | mrpull-: isn't that "breathe" |
| 20:48.30 | jsmith | mheath: Just buy a new bridge... they're not very expensive |
| 20:48.31 | mheath | Infact, when theres strings on it pulled taught, its held in place |
| 20:48.46 | mheath | jsmith: How do I attach it, though? |
| 20:48.54 | jsmith | mheath: The strings hold it in place |
| 20:49.05 | mheath | D'oh. |
| 20:49.09 | mheath | OK |
| 20:49.14 | mheath | I have a non-broken violin :P |
| 20:49.18 | mheath | Shows how much I know |
| 20:49.21 | mheath | thanks, jsmith :P |
| 20:49.49 | mheath | Can I restring a violin myself, OK? |
| 20:49.52 | mrpull- | herlo: nah... that's how we spell it in lehi |
| 20:49.59 | mheath | I've restrung a guitar before..thats a simple, easy-to-do think.. |
| 20:50.01 | mheath | *thing |
| 20:50.08 | mheath | So, WTF |
| 20:50.17 | mheath | Someone leaked Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows |
| 20:50.20 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 20:50.22 | herlo | mrpull-: yeah, that's why they had that movie there way back when...what was it again? |
| 20:50.32 | herlo | ooh yeah footlose! |
| 20:50.34 | mheath | Publishers all around the world are spending millions on security to ship it aorund, and someone leaked it. |
| 20:50.40 | mrpull- | the classic footloose |
| 20:50.56 | herlo | mrpull-: but you're from lehi, you don't spell that guud |
| 20:50.56 | mheath | How pathetic would you be to download it? |
| 20:50.59 | herlo | :) |
| 20:51.00 | mrpull- | surprisingly, lehi hasn't changed a bit since they filmed it |
| 20:51.00 | maquis | mheath: they claimed they had previously, and it was fake |
| 20:51.10 | mheath | maquis: This is apparently real. |
| 20:51.11 | jsmith | mheath: Yeah... you can |
| 20:51.19 | maquis | mheath: i dunno... |
| 20:51.27 | maquis | with the amount of security and such, i'm suspicious... |
| 20:51.33 | mheath | maquis: They're horrible quality |
| 20:51.36 | mheath | Its not an e-book |
| 20:51.40 | maquis | if it is real, somebody's going to end up in trouble, i'm betting |
| 20:51.43 | mheath | Its hurried jpg pictures of every page in the book |
| 20:51.47 | maquis | mheath: what's horrible quality? |
| 20:51.50 | maquis | oh |
| 20:51.58 | maquis | the leakage? |
| 20:52.00 | mheath | Yeah |
| 20:52.20 | mheath | I'm anticipating this so much, and yet I have no interest in downloading it |
| 20:52.33 | mheath | Spending days trying to read some trashy quality pictures on my computer... |
| 20:52.35 | maquis | mheath: are you getting it delivered to you on release-day? |
| 20:52.41 | mheath | maquis: No reason to. |
| 20:52.43 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 20:52.45 | maquis | mheath: ? |
| 20:52.46 | mheath | Walmart stocks a million of them |
| 20:52.52 | maquis | mheath: ah... |
| 20:52.55 | mheath | I can go get one at midnight at Walmart without reserving or anything... |
| 20:52.58 | chadbryant | Wal-Mart is also a tool of Satan |
| 20:53.03 | mheath | Or I can wait for Amazon.com to ship it and get it later in the evening |
| 20:53.10 | mheath | I read fast |
| 20:53.20 | mheath | I'll probably be done with it by the time amazon.com would get it to me :P |
| 20:53.24 | maquis | mheath: i doubt that |
| 20:53.45 | chadbryant | any word on how many pages this one is? |
| 20:53.53 | maquis | chadbryant: i believe that's been released |
| 20:53.57 | chadbryant | 6 wasn't bigger than 5, tahnkfully |
| 20:54.01 | mheath | BTW: http://machinist.salon.com/blog/2007/07/17/potter_leaked/ |
| 20:54.04 | chadbryant | er, thankfully |
| 20:54.19 | maquis | Hardcover: 784 pages |
| 20:54.40 | chadbryant | damn |
| 20:55.06 | mheath | that download says 759 pages...hmm |
| 20:55.10 | chadbryant | ISTR Rowling saying that 6 & 7 were supposed to be two halves of one "book" |
| 20:56.09 | mheath | its horible |
| 20:56.20 | mheath | I don't know, I have a lot of nostalgia for this book series. |
| 20:56.25 | mheath | I was just the right age to start reading it |
| 20:56.37 | mheath | I kinda grew up with it |
| 20:56.54 | mheath | I'd rather wait, go to a cool little release party, and get my beautiful hardcover copy |
| 20:58.33 | chadbryant | OK, I have a question |
| 20:58.44 | chadbryant | has anyone gotten Ubuntu to work with multiple monitors? |
| 20:59.43 | mheath | I had, long ago.. |
| 21:00.08 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 21:00.39 | mheath | STUPID ARTICLE. GRRR. |
| 21:00.51 | mheath | I shouldn't have read the freakin comments. Someone made a comment about someone dieing. |
| 21:01.02 | mheath | No idea if they were just making stuff up / being annoying, or if they got it from the leaked copy |
| 21:01.05 | mheath | thats horrible though |
| 21:01.26 | maquis | mheath: did it say *who*? |
| 21:01.31 | maquis | and if so, don't tell me |
| 21:01.33 | levi | THEY ALL DIE!!! Muahaha! |
| 21:01.48 | levi | maquis: Yes, it named a particular character. |
| 21:01.57 | Jayce^ | ~clusterbomb hogwarts |
| 21:02.47 | mheath | Its times like that this that I hate bittorrent and things like that... |
| 21:02.55 | mheath | Leaked stuff is silly |
| 21:02.58 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq_ (n=thaddeus@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 21:03.04 | mheath | No anticipation, no excitement. |
| 21:03.16 | mheath | For movies, no going and enjoying it on the big screen |
| 21:03.20 | levi | You don't have to download the leaked copy if you don't want. |
| 21:03.24 | mheath | I don't have to |
| 21:03.32 | mheath | But it just bugs me that its out there. |
| 21:03.43 | mheath | ANd it bugs me that thanks to bittorrent, theres literally nothing anyone can do to stop that now. |
| 21:03.51 | maquis | mheath: you haven't spent the past month trying to keep it from being out there |
| 21:04.04 | dataw0lf | I can tell you guys who dies |
| 21:04.05 | dataw0lf | if you want |
| 21:04.09 | levi | bittorrent has nothing to do with it, aside from being a popular release mechanism now. |
| 21:04.26 | mheath | levi: Distributed protocols in general, then |
| 21:04.38 | mheath | Legitimate uses, but also make it impossible to contain bad uses. |
| 21:05.03 | mheath | maquis: yeah, stay away from it. The main page (as long as you don't click on comments) is harmless enough, though |
| 21:05.08 | levi | Yeah, kind of like stuff like guns, eh? |
| 21:05.20 | levi | And knives. |
| 21:05.42 | mheath | It has some 'spoilers', but those are just random, non-plot-oriented sentences and page numbers to 'prove' that its real |
| 21:05.42 | levi | Those don't just harm people's sensibilities, they kill and maim. |
| 21:05.54 | dataw0lf | levi: THEY SHOULD BE BANNED |
| 21:06.07 | dataw0lf | AND BOOKS SHOULD BE BURNED, CUZ THEY CAN BE USED IN AN IRRESPONSIBLE FASHIOn |
| 21:06.17 | dataw0lf | AND BABIES |
| 21:06.21 | dataw0lf | THEY THROW UP ON YOU SOMETIMES |
| 21:06.26 | dataw0lf | BAN BABIES |
| 21:06.30 | dataw0lf | sorry |
| 21:06.36 | dataw0lf | I blacked out for a moment there |
| 21:06.40 | mheath | I'm glad more people aren't download it |
| 21:06.52 | mheath | According to Pirate bay, it had 3 seeders and 50 leeches |
| 21:07.05 | mheath | Not much for something thats supposed to be the worlds most popular book =\ |
| 21:07.35 | ^Migs^ | uh |
| 21:07.41 | ^Migs^ | I have the whole Harry Potter book |
| 21:07.43 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 21:07.50 | ^Migs^ | it's just some images of some guy holding each page open then taking a snapshot, but it's all there |
| 21:08.06 | ^Migs^ | I'm going to go to the bookstores and shout spoilers |
| 21:08.19 | dataw0lf | I've seen it in doc format already |
| 21:08.24 | levi | I think it's pretty silly that people like ^Migs^ have downloaded it, but I don't particularly care that it's available. |
| 21:08.26 | ^Migs^ | I don't think it's in DOC yet |
| 21:08.34 | ^Migs^ | there was a fake fanfic awhile ago |
| 21:08.35 | dataw0lf | I've seen it in doc |
| 21:09.21 | mheath | levi: thats what bothers me the most. |
| 21:09.35 | levi | mheath: What, that people don't care? |
| 21:09.54 | mheath | levi: no, that people go and download it |
| 21:10.06 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88) |
| 21:10.10 | mheath | Kinda sad, Technology seems like it makes a lot of people miss out on a lot of the simple pleasures in life |
| 21:10.10 | chadbryant | I'm downloading it now |
| 21:10.14 | mheath | Anticipating a new book |
| 21:10.17 | chadbryant | I'll still read the actual book |
| 21:10.23 | mheath | Holding it in your hands, reading it.. |
| 21:10.37 | ^Migs^ | if you want to hold it in your hands, print it out |
| 21:11.14 | levi | mheath: People do all sorts of dumb things. I try not to get upset about it. |
| 21:12.23 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@c-76-23-34-128.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:12.58 | chadbryant | I'm more upset at the abuses inficted upon our military by the ineptitude of the George W. Bush Presidency than at the fact that some people may download a Harry Potter book three days before its commercial release. |
| 21:13.07 | chadbryant | Then again, I'm a reader. |
| 21:13.31 | dataw0lf | c'mon now |
| 21:13.46 | dataw0lf | not even I would be bold enough to derail a conversation about Harry Potter into politics |
| 21:14.47 | chadbryant | I guess that makes me bold, then. |
| 21:15.00 | dataw0lf | or ridiculous |
| 21:15.01 | dataw0lf | either/or |
| 21:15.16 | chadbryant | One could say that it' |
| 21:15.44 | chadbryant | it's ridiculous to be offended by people downloading a book when far worse things are happening in the world. |
| 21:15.59 | dataw0lf | of course it is |
| 21:16.06 | levi | One could say it's ridiculous to be offended by people downloading a book, period. |
| 21:16.13 | sontek | You are a tyran and a sinner if you believe the war in Iraq is more important than Harry Potter! |
| 21:16.16 | sontek | tyrant! |
| 21:16.20 | sontek | burn him! |
| 21:16.26 | dataw0lf | does he float? |
| 21:16.42 | sontek | haha |
| 21:17.09 | pr0le | I didn't even consider it political, just fact |
| 21:17.15 | sjansen | I once saw him eat a duck. |
| 21:17.34 | sjansen | No, wait, that's not how the quote goes. |
| 21:17.38 | sjansen | I once saw him eat wood. |
| 21:17.42 | sjansen | No... |
| 21:17.49 | sjansen | I once saw him carve a wooden duck. |
| 21:17.49 | dataw0lf | you're fired |
| 21:18.19 | dataw0lf | pr0le: Bush is the president of the United States. You have to support the president, through thick and thin. |
| 21:18.44 | pr0le | um, no you don't |
| 21:18.48 | ^Migs^ | I don't see the problem. I'm NEVER going to buy the book, and I've NEVER read any of the Harry Potter books. |
| 21:18.50 | chadbryant | LOL |
| 21:18.57 | ^Migs^ | I'm just downloading it because everyone does it, and therefore it's cool. |
| 21:18.59 | dataw0lf | pr0le: Well then you're a terrorist. |
| 21:19.08 | pr0le | yep, I'm a terrorist |
| 21:19.10 | chadbryant | Yeah, because so much of the goober-populace supported Clinton.. |
| 21:19.24 | dataw0lf | clinton wasn't a president, he was a terrorist. |
| 21:19.27 | dataw0lf | like you. |
| 21:19.29 | chadbryant | lol |
| 21:19.32 | pr0le | a terrorist hanging out on #utah |
| 21:20.25 | dataw0lf | a communist terrorist |
| 21:20.44 | fozzmoo | There's a bomb threat downtown SLC |
| 21:20.51 | fozzmoo | Wells Fargo building being evac'd. |
| 21:20.55 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=496ab74b-f6fe-4606-b824-dbe70a22597e |
| 21:20.59 | dataw0lf | you read that? |
| 21:21.02 | *** join/#utah raventh1 (n=raven@68.142.142.101) |
| 21:21.08 | raventh1 | TERRORISTS WIN! |
| 21:21.11 | dataw0lf | probably a copy cat / inspiree |
| 21:21.22 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: Saw the picture and went, "Whoa!" |
| 21:21.32 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: yea, you can definitely tell he hung out in #utah |
| 21:22.11 | decriptor | I don't see anything about well's fargo |
| 21:22.27 | dataw0lf | pr0le / chadbryant: you'll never win in an argument about Iraq / Bush, even when I'm arguing on the opposite side of the fence, like I'm doing. |
| 21:22.33 | fozzmoo | decriptor: It's happening right now. |
| 21:22.45 | decriptor | oh |
| 21:22.50 | sontek | dataw0lf: Are you saying you don't support Bush?! |
| 21:22.51 | decriptor | that sucsk |
| 21:22.51 | sontek | BURN HIM! |
| 21:22.56 | dataw0lf | DO I FLOAT? |
| 21:23.23 | dataw0lf | I like arguing in support of Bush every now and then, it makes me feel dirty |
| 21:23.24 | sontek | he turned me into a newt! |
| 21:23.32 | dataw0lf | I got better... |
| 21:24.02 | fozzmoo | Bush has done a lot of great things... but even then, he hasn't really been able to effectively talk to the people about them. |
| 21:24.40 | dataw0lf | 'great' things? |
| 21:24.46 | raventh1 | we'd be better off with beavis and or butthead as spokesperson for bush |
| 21:24.52 | fozzmoo | raventh1: Agreed. |
| 21:24.58 | dataw0lf | he's managed not to screw up about 20% of his agenda / policy |
| 21:25.19 | fozzmoo | His Terror policy, I think, has been dead-on. |
| 21:25.22 | dataw0lf | on the other hand, he's completely destroyed the U.S. military, wiped his butt with the constitution, etc |
| 21:25.24 | sontek | Thats why i'm voting for Stewart/Colbert in 2008 |
| 21:25.34 | chadbryant | In electing (if it truly was such a thing) George W. Bush, the people of the United States of America succeeded in choosing a President no smarter than they are. |
| 21:25.35 | sontek | they'll get this country on the right track! |
| 21:25.42 | raventh1 | fozzmoo: Terror policy as in Terrorizing the US citizen? |
| 21:25.54 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: Really? Because Clinton had a great terrorist policy that had been watching Al Qaida for years, and tried to give Rice briefings on it every week before 9/11 |
| 21:25.58 | dataw0lf | she kept on blowing them off |
| 21:26.02 | dataw0lf | you know what she said ? |
| 21:26.12 | dataw0lf | "The Clinton Administration was obsessed with terrorism" |
| 21:26.16 | dataw0lf | Oh, then 9/11 happened |
| 21:26.21 | dataw0lf | so, right, his terror policy, good stuff |
| 21:26.58 | fozzmoo | I don't think you can judge the administration by its behavior pre-9/11 |
| 21:27.02 | fozzmoo | Everything changed after that. |
| 21:27.13 | sontek | dataw0lf: I think if we pushed more counter-strike playing in schools 9/11 wouldn't have happened |
| 21:27.20 | fozzmoo | sontek: heh heh. |
| 21:27.27 | dataw0lf | really? Because it seems like if they had been listening to Clinton's terrorist advisor, they may have prevented it |
| 21:27.30 | sontek | our children aren't properly trained to defend themselves against terrorists |
| 21:27.32 | dataw0lf | and what has he done post 9/11? |
| 21:27.34 | dataw0lf | I'm intrigued. |
| 21:27.38 | raventh1 | COUNTER-TERRORISTS WIN! |
| 21:27.50 | dataw0lf | I went to Afghanistan and Iraq, there were no terrorists in IRAQ before we went there |
| 21:28.03 | dataw0lf | so basically he setup a training ground for Saudis in Iraq to practice against Americans |
| 21:28.05 | raventh1 | who put saddam in charge? |
| 21:28.07 | raventh1 | USA |
| 21:28.07 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: Except Hussein. |
| 21:28.10 | sontek | I know if my clan members were on those planes, we would've been bunny hopping all over them terrorist asses |
| 21:28.24 | dataw0lf | raventh1: who overthrew the Iranian democracy in the late 50s? |
| 21:28.26 | dataw0lf | AMERICA |
| 21:28.30 | raventh1 | yeah |
| 21:28.39 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: show me connections between terrorists and Saddam |
| 21:28.43 | dataw0lf | I don't think you understand Saddam very well |
| 21:28.47 | dataw0lf | Saddam was extremely secular |
| 21:28.50 | sontek | Are we playing whos bomb was bigger? |
| 21:29.06 | sjansen | fozzmoo: huh? You can judge by pre-9/11? If what dataw0lf says is true, how can you judge on anything else? |
| 21:29.07 | dataw0lf | do you really think he wanted a bunch of islamic extremists throwing their weight around in his country? |
| 21:29.07 | fozzmoo | Yes, I know Saddam was secular. He was very westernized. |
| 21:29.10 | dataw0lf | He was a dictator. |
| 21:29.15 | raventh1 | iow I think we change our foreign policy to not put your fingers in other peoples business for monetary gain |
| 21:29.22 | dataw0lf | so, he didn't want anything to do with islamic fundamentalists |
| 21:29.23 | sontek | so, did you guys hear the Harry Potter book got leaked? |
| 21:29.27 | dataw0lf | islamic fundamentalists didn't like him |
| 21:29.35 | dataw0lf | Hamas was all about us overthrowing Saddam |
| 21:29.39 | bonez39 | we are there to dismantal the tyranny of orthodox islam...which disallows anyone else in the world to exist....convert or die...is what orthodox islam teaches...we are there to halt that non-sense...and to open the door there for missionary work...FLAME AWAY... |
| 21:29.52 | fozzmoo | Okay, so he had other reasons besides religion for killing tens of thousands of Kurds and Shias. |
| 21:29.53 | dataw0lf | there was no tyranny of orthodox islam in Iraq! |
| 21:29.58 | sontek | I think the person who leaked it was an Iranian terrorist trying to cause total chaos in the US |
| 21:30.06 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: our fight is against islamic fundamentalists |
| 21:30.12 | raventh1 | bonez39: almost all religions come from the book |
| 21:30.16 | dataw0lf | we allow dictators, indeed support them, to thrive across the globe |
| 21:30.18 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: I agree. |
| 21:30.20 | raventh1 | including islam |
| 21:30.22 | dataw0lf | so taking that moral stance is ridiculous |
| 21:30.28 | fozzmoo | Not really. |
| 21:30.32 | dataw0lf | sure it is |
| 21:30.46 | raventh1 | it's too bad that all the derivatives can't see the similarities and just get along |
| 21:30.47 | fozzmoo | Everyone was convinced Saddam was a threat in 2003. |
| 21:30.48 | dataw0lf | the two countries we're fighting in, both of them we helped support into their current regimes |
| 21:30.53 | dataw0lf | I wasn't |
| 21:31.02 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: But you're not important. |
| 21:31.02 | sontek | Harry dies. |
| 21:31.07 | fozzmoo | All the people "in charge." |
| 21:31.07 | raventh1 | sontek: :o |
| 21:31.10 | dataw0lf | I was kinda pissed that I was getting pulled out of Afghanistan after chasing AL QAIDA FOR MONTHS |
| 21:31.15 | sontek | raventh1: shh, don't tell anyone! |
| 21:31.19 | dataw0lf | because idiots like you don't know middle eastern culture |
| 21:31.25 | raventh1 | sontek: HARRY KILLS DUMBLEDORE KILLS HARRY |
| 21:31.28 | dataw0lf | nor who Saddam was |
| 21:31.31 | sontek | dataw0lf: hey now, no personal attacks |
| 21:31.34 | dataw0lf | I think Saddam was terrible |
| 21:31.36 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: I defended Saddam in 1991. |
| 21:31.37 | dataw0lf | sontek: it pisses me off |
| 21:31.50 | fozzmoo | You're making assumptions about me. |
| 21:32.00 | dataw0lf | but destroying our military in an extended conflict in Iraq isn't the answer |
| 21:32.02 | dataw0lf | we need to pull out |
| 21:32.09 | dataw0lf | put more trooops on the ground in Afghanistan |
| 21:32.11 | raventh1 | dataw0lf: we shouldn't have to know middle eastern culture, in fact we shouldn't have anyone over there either |
| 21:32.12 | dataw0lf | and get Al-Qaida |
| 21:32.15 | dataw0lf | before we piss off Hamas |
| 21:32.17 | ^Migs^ | Harry doesn't die |
| 21:32.20 | raventh1 | and no more of this cia crap to cause "blowback" |
| 21:32.21 | dataw0lf | (who're already starting to get pissed off at us) |
| 21:32.29 | fozzmoo | Either that, or we need to really engage... |
| 21:32.32 | dataw0lf | (who also supported our invasion of Afghanistan) |
| 21:32.35 | raventh1 | ^Migs^: HERMINIE DIES! |
| 21:32.44 | bonez39 | dataw0lf: but are most dictators committed to the destruction of the US, and the western christian world? No, but islam is....entirely....they despise us and all we stand for |
| 21:32.45 | ^Migs^ | herminie? |
| 21:32.45 | fozzmoo | Quit pushing our small number of troops so hard. |
| 21:32.46 | ^Migs^ | wtf? |
| 21:32.47 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: grab a rucksack and m4 and go on over there and replace one of my buddies then |
| 21:33.01 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: I would gladly serve if they would let me. |
| 21:33.02 | dataw0lf | let me guess |
| 21:33.02 | ^Migs^ | the Harry Potter book has this weird "19 years later" epilogue |
| 21:33.02 | mheath | ~lart ^Migs^ |
| 21:33.02 | ibot | whips out a hot clue gun and makes sure that ^Migs^ is stuck to the floor |
| 21:33.04 | dataw0lf | you have a bad back |
| 21:33.10 | dataw0lf | typical chicken hawk excuse |
| 21:33.14 | dataw0lf | or is bad knees? |
| 21:33.16 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: My back is fine. |
| 21:33.28 | fozzmoo | But I'm diabetic, hearing impaired, and have horrible vision. |
| 21:33.31 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:33.38 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:33.47 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: what a shame |
| 21:33.58 | dataw0lf | I bet they'll put you on .50 cal duty |
| 21:34.00 | dataw0lf | I would |
| 21:34.05 | dataw0lf | just tell you the sector to fire in and you'll be fine |
| 21:34.07 | ^Migs^ | wait |
| 21:34.09 | ^Migs^ | wtf? |
| 21:34.13 | raventh1 | /ban sjansen |
| 21:34.16 | mheath | sjansen: meh, I'd really do it, personally. If the comments on that news article is any indication, he might be sharing real spoilers. |
| 21:34.17 | raventh1 | NO SPACE :) |
| 21:34.17 | fozzmoo | Lose the rest of my hearing? |
| 21:34.24 | ^Migs^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:34.34 | raventh1 | /jump ^Migs^ |
| 21:34.41 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: oh, so your hearing is more important than your fabled virtues of why we should fully commit to war |
| 21:34.44 | ^Migs^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:34.48 | fozzmoo | I didn't say that. |
| 21:34.52 | ^Migs^ | I'm not going to reveal any spoilers, don't worry |
| 21:34.55 | sontek | so when are Harry and Herminie going to get it on? |
| 21:34.55 | dataw0lf | wear ear plugs |
| 21:35.00 | dataw0lf | don't be a wuss |
| 21:35.13 | raventh1 | sontek: book 18 when they are of legal age |
| 21:35.19 | dataw0lf | if you wanted to be in the military, you would be |
| 21:35.22 | dataw0lf | case closed. |
| 21:35.25 | ^Migs^ | I just read the last chapter of the book. I don't have the time to waste on the whole book |
| 21:35.41 | ^Migs^ | right, because kids under 18 never have sex |
| 21:35.57 | dataw0lf | every Bush supporter I talk to who wants to go 'omg full force' has the same story |
| 21:35.59 | dataw0lf | bad back |
| 21:36.00 | dataw0lf | diabetes |
| 21:36.02 | dataw0lf | bad knees |
| 21:36.07 | dataw0lf | wart on their finger |
| 21:36.07 | raventh1 | ^Migs^: well, it is popular culture |
| 21:36.08 | dataw0lf | something |
| 21:36.08 | sjansen | You mean the chapter where's its revealed that Harry Potter is just the daydreak of Dick Cheney? |
| 21:36.49 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: That's quite the chip on your shoudler, man. |
| 21:36.55 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: it sure is |
| 21:37.14 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: I had my buddies brains in my lap because of people who're ignorant like you |
| 21:37.21 | sontek | raventh1: Hermione turns 18 next April, we better get some nipple in the next movie |
| 21:37.21 | dataw0lf | so, yea, big chip |
| 21:37.32 | fozzmoo | There are many people far more ignorant than me. |
| 21:37.46 | ^Migs^ | WARNING: HARRY POTTER SPOILERS: DO NOT VIEW IF YOU WILL BE OFFENDED: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:bYjDuAR5bZEJ:www.zendurl.com/hallows/+harry+potter+ron+dies+snape+dies+lupin+dies&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us |
| 21:37.54 | fozzmoo | I think we need MORE people in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
| 21:38.00 | fozzmoo | Pulling out would be... stupid. |
| 21:38.01 | raventh1 | fozzmoo: why? |
| 21:38.02 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: I think we need MORE people in Afghanistan |
| 21:38.06 | fozzmoo | I agree. |
| 21:38.08 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: what're you basing that on? |
| 21:38.10 | raventh1 | I think we need to get the hell out |
| 21:38.11 | dataw0lf | let Iran take them |
| 21:38.19 | JoshH | more in afghanistan, less in iraq (in the first place) |
| 21:38.30 | sjansen | What difference would it make to send more people to Iraq? |
| 21:38.33 | dataw0lf | if we leave Iran alone, Iran will be a full fledged democracy in 10-15 years |
| 21:38.40 | ^Migs^ | I agree with dataw0lf |
| 21:38.40 | raventh1 | I think we should get out of the middle east, and let oil disputes between neighbors be just that |
| 21:38.43 | fozzmoo | Iran is the head of the snake driving and funding all the crap going on in Iraq and Palestine. |
| 21:38.43 | dataw0lf | people don't seem to realize how liberal the young people in Iran are |
| 21:38.48 | ^Migs^ | yeah, who needs oil? |
| 21:38.52 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: no, the Saudis are |
| 21:38.55 | dataw0lf | once again, get it right |
| 21:39.02 | sontek | We need more Chuck Norris |
| 21:39.04 | raventh1 | ^Migs^: They need just as many other things |
| 21:39.04 | sjansen | What is the Iraqi goverment doing to improve things? What are the Iraqi people doing to improve things? How will leaving Iraq making the US less safe? |
| 21:39.07 | dataw0lf | do you know the percentage of insurgents in Iraq who're Saudis? |
| 21:39.08 | fozzmoo | The Saudis are a problem too. We should quit being their buddy. |
| 21:39.11 | raventh1 | let the market balance it's self |
| 21:39.30 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: what's the percentage of insurgents in Iraq who're Iranians? |
| 21:39.32 | sontek | You know what would balance the market? A bomb |
| 21:39.32 | dataw0lf | do you know that? |
| 21:39.37 | dataw0lf | miniscule percentage |
| 21:39.40 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, no, wahhabi VS iran, there is a difference.. |
| 21:39.45 | fozzmoo | We wouldn't care so much about oil from the middle east if we could just drill some more on this continent. |
| 21:39.46 | dataw0lf | Saudis? 70-80 percent, somewhere near there. |
| 21:40.10 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: My understanding is that a lot of the weapons being used against us in Iraq are either Iranian or Chinese |
| 21:40.31 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: True, but wahhabi would die out if we let it |
| 21:40.33 | fozzmoo | And Russian, of course. |
| 21:40.35 | raventh1 | both of which are closer neighbors than any country in america |
| 21:40.39 | dataw0lf | mostly old Soviet stuff |
| 21:40.40 | fozzmoo | But everyone uses RUssian crap. |
| 21:40.41 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, die out? how?? |
| 21:40.54 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: because of the huge cultural revolution that's happening in Iran |
| 21:40.58 | raventh1 | kalishnikov isn't crap :) |
| 21:41.00 | sjansen | Frankly, at this point, I'm starting to wonder if we're doing any good. I used to think we should stay, now I'm starting to think we're trying to force a "country" that doesn't want to be united or stable to become what we not, not what they're willing to work for. |
| 21:41.18 | dataw0lf | of course, Bush, by rattling his scabbard, isn't helping with the cultural turnover in Iran |
| 21:41.22 | raventh1 | Freedom isn't given, it's born |
| 21:41.29 | dataw0lf | turning the young people, who mostly supported the United States before Iraq, against us |
| 21:41.29 | fozzmoo | We're not going to attack Iran. |
| 21:41.33 | dataw0lf | bull |
| 21:41.35 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, wahhabi is the Saudi practice.. I'm mentioning that there is a big fight in iranian vs saudi islam |
| 21:41.36 | dataw0lf | we will attack Iran |
| 21:41.40 | fozzmoo | I hope not. |
| 21:41.54 | fozzmoo | We should provide support to the revolutionaries inside... |
| 21:42.05 | fozzmoo | but we shouldn't engage militarily. |
| 21:42.20 | dataw0lf | uh, well, they're turning out enriched uranium |
| 21:42.23 | fozzmoo | We are alreayd engaging politically and economically. |
| 21:42.31 | sontek | Frankly, I'm starting to wonder how Bush got elected for 2 terms |
| 21:42.33 | fozzmoo | and it seems to be working. |
| 21:42.42 | Jayce^ | we're actually more engaged with them now than we have been since the Shah |
| 21:42.43 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: uh, we're engaging militarily too |
| 21:42.48 | sjansen | fozzmoo: Like we supported the bay of pigs? |
| 21:42.49 | dataw0lf | we have SF on the ground in Iran |
| 21:42.50 | fozzmoo | sontek: Two words: John Kerry |
| 21:42.51 | sontek | If we would've elected Gore there would be peace in the middle east |
| 21:42.54 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: Not officially. |
| 21:42.57 | sontek | Global Warming would be solved |
| 21:42.59 | fozzmoo | sontek: HAH! |
| 21:43.04 | fozzmoo | sontek: HAH! |
| 21:43.06 | Jayce^ | sontek, now pull the other |
| 21:43.09 | sjansen | sontek: Because the Democratic candidates looked even worse. Sad but true. |
| 21:43.19 | fozzmoo | sontek: Go watch the "Great Global Warming Swindle" from the BBC. It's on YouTube. |
| 21:43.22 | dataw0lf | Kerry really looked worse than Bush? |
| 21:43.28 | Jayce^ | yes |
| 21:43.29 | dataw0lf | man you guys are warped |
| 21:43.33 | fozzmoo | We can't solve global warming. |
| 21:43.40 | dataw0lf | we are at war, and you voted for Bush in 2004 |
| 21:43.45 | dataw0lf | the absolute worst |
| 21:43.49 | fozzmoo | No more than anyone can fix my hearing impairment. |
| 21:43.50 | dataw0lf | in leading our country's military |
| 21:43.53 | fozzmoo | It's natural. |
| 21:44.18 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, nah, Carter, or Clinton |
| 21:44.25 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: no way. |
| 21:44.35 | dataw0lf | Neither have destroyed our military like Bush has |
| 21:44.36 | sjansen | Kerry looked like he'd cut and run. At the time, it looked like there was still hope in Iraq. It was a pretty different time. |
| 21:44.38 | sontek | I don't care how bad Kerry was, at least he had Charming good looks! |
| 21:44.45 | sontek | Bush is one ugly mofo |
| 21:44.47 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: Most military people like presidents that actually care about funding the military. |
| 21:44.48 | Jayce^ | oh yeah.. they absolutley did.. I grew up in their military |
| 21:44.56 | decriptor | wow checking out the guys |
| 21:44.57 | dataw0lf | sjansen: I remember you guys saying it was going to get better... |
| 21:44.58 | dataw0lf | tsk |
| 21:45.02 | decriptor | which channel is this |
| 21:45.06 | fozzmoo | sontek: Bush sucks because he's ugly? |
| 21:45.16 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: most military people vote republican for a wage raise, sad abut true |
| 21:45.21 | sontek | fozzmoo: did you learn nothing from High school? |
| 21:45.25 | sjansen | The destruction of American ideals like freedom and privacy looked more like a problem with the Republican congress, not a president bent on saving America by destroying it. |
| 21:45.35 | fozzmoo | sontek: Reagan was president when I was in high school. |
| 21:45.41 | fozzmoo | Those were the days. |
| 21:46.00 | herlo | fozzmoo: I agree, but Reagan was the last *true* republican |
| 21:46.02 | fozzmoo | Too bad Reagan isn't around today. |
| 21:46.04 | sontek | fozzmoo: Well, you'll love all the Republican candidates for 2008, they drop the Reagan bomb every speech |
| 21:46.07 | fozzmoo | herlo: I agree. |
| 21:46.11 | Jayce^ | reagan ++ |
| 21:46.12 | fozzmoo | sontek: I know! |
| 21:46.15 | fozzmoo | It's nuts. |
| 21:46.15 | herlo | fozzmoo: he's turning in his grave |
| 21:46.17 | dataw0lf | I'm reagan-- |
| 21:46.25 | fozzmoo | Trying to figure out if anyone of them are Reaganesque at all. |
| 21:46.30 | dataw0lf | the guy was senile for his last term, it was ridiculous |
| 21:46.32 | herlo | ~lart dataw0lf for thinking he's that good! |
| 21:46.32 | ibot | steals dataw0lf's mojo for thinking he's that good! |
| 21:46.35 | fozzmoo | It helps to know Reagan. I've been reading a lot about him the last few years. |
| 21:46.40 | sontek | They aren't, The only true candidate for 2008 is Hillary =) |
| 21:46.41 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: No he wasn't. |
| 21:46.42 | dataw0lf | I've read a lot on Reagan |
| 21:46.49 | levi | It's funny that people can read a whole bunch of sources and /still/ get a pretty one-sided view of things while feeling incredibly well-informed. |
| 21:46.53 | sontek | This country needs a womans touch! |
| 21:47.05 | fozzmoo | sontek: Hillary?! A woman's touch?! |
| 21:47.08 | herlo | sontek: but not Hillary |
| 21:47.13 | decriptor | is hillary gets in then bill is still the first lady :) |
| 21:47.15 | dataw0lf | it's amazing that so many people can READ about Iraq and think they know what they're talking about |
| 21:47.28 | sontek | Well, a feminie touch, shes the least manly out of all the candidates, but manly none the less |
| 21:47.31 | dataw0lf | unless he eats a baby or something |
| 21:47.33 | Jayce^ | ugh.. obama-- |
| 21:47.35 | dataw0lf | even then |
| 21:47.39 | dataw0lf | he'd still be better than Bush |
| 21:47.43 | fozzmoo | Obama is about as far-right as the candidates come... |
| 21:47.44 | Jayce^ | best democrat, yet still not close |
| 21:47.51 | fozzmoo | s/right/left/ |
| 21:47.54 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo, right?? |
| 21:47.55 | Jayce^ | ah |
| 21:48.00 | dataw0lf | I'll vote for McCain if he gets the nom |
| 21:48.04 | dataw0lf | no way I'm voting for Giuliani |
| 21:48.05 | fozzmoo | Except maybe Kuccinich. |
| 21:48.11 | sontek | The farther left the better =) |
| 21:48.16 | dataw0lf | true that |
| 21:48.31 | sontek | Its better than the 1 trick pony Ron Paul |
| 21:48.41 | sjansen | I'd vote Obama if I knew he isn't just a pretty face and good words but no backbone. I worry about his lack of experience, but given the options... probably Obama. |
| 21:48.44 | Jayce^ | ron paul -- |
| 21:48.57 | JoshH | i like a lack of experience in politicians |
| 21:48.58 | fozzmoo | Obama's got a damn scary voting record. |
| 21:48.58 | herlo | ron paul won't win |
| 21:49.02 | sjansen | Unless we can convince someone like Colin Powell or Abraham Lincoln to run. |
| 21:49.03 | pr0le | I think fozzmoo listens to a lot of conservative talk radio... every thing he says sounds an awful lot like everything my brother in law says |
| 21:49.07 | JoshH | the career politicians are the corrupt ones |
| 21:49.13 | levi | Abraham Lincoln FTW! |
| 21:49.19 | dataw0lf | Lincoln, meh |
| 21:49.20 | fozzmoo | pr0le: I listen to a lot of Glenn Beck. |
| 21:49.27 | dataw0lf | Jefferson! |
| 21:49.27 | fozzmoo | He's conservative, but not republican. |
| 21:49.30 | herlo | glenn beck rocks |
| 21:49.36 | Jayce^ | beh, Adams! |
| 21:49.44 | dataw0lf | Buchanan! |
| 21:49.45 | dataw0lf | ... |
| 21:49.46 | chadbryant | Glenn Beck is nothing special |
| 21:49.47 | sjansen | heh |
| 21:49.58 | herlo | I don't always agree with him, but I like his style |
| 21:49.58 | sontek | Glenn Beck, Oh my heck! |
| 21:50.00 | levi | I don't listen to Glenn Beck, but the ads for him I've heard when my wife leaves the radio on some talk station make me dislike him. |
| 21:50.01 | chadbryant | there's a reason he's on the same TV news outlet as Nancy Grace |
| 21:50.02 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 21:50.06 | fozzmoo | herlo: Yeah- he'll criticize the GOP as much as the Dems. |
| 21:50.08 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:50.14 | herlo | fozzmoo: yep |
| 21:50.14 | dataw0lf | chadbryant: Don't get me started on Nancy Grace |
| 21:50.17 | fozzmoo | chadbryant: Yeah, because HNN needs the ratings. :) |
| 21:50.18 | sontek | Glenn Beck is a wannabe Colbert |
| 21:50.20 | herlo | Nancy Grace Sucks |
| 21:50.25 | dataw0lf | (tm) |
| 21:50.32 | herlo | ~url NancyGraceSucks.com |
| 21:50.45 | fozzmoo | sontek: Someone wants to be like Stephen Colbert? |
| 21:50.48 | dataw0lf | she annoys me more than Al Sharpton, and that's hard to do. |
| 21:50.48 | herlo | apparently, I killed the conv |
| 21:50.55 | levi | I watched Glenn Beck's special on global warming and it made me want to hit him. |
| 21:50.56 | sjansen | Nancy "determined to use national media to save every puppy while a war rages" Grace? |
| 21:51.02 | herlo | fozzmoo: I love colbert too |
| 21:51.07 | fozzmoo | Me too. |
| 21:51.16 | fozzmoo | He's a great entertainer. |
| 21:51.21 | dataw0lf | Nancy "Pronounce Duke Lacrosse Players Guilty And Completely Bash Them" Grace |
| 21:51.24 | sjansen | I'd vote Colbert in a heart beat. |
| 21:51.32 | herlo | yeah, but he won't run |
| 21:51.35 | fozzmoo | Is anyone in here Pro-Nancy Grace?! |
| 21:51.36 | dataw0lf | I'd vote Jon Stewart |
| 21:51.42 | herlo | eh |
| 21:51.45 | chadbryant | I must say that for a convery, Glenn Beck assimilated quite nicely into the hoity-toity goody-goody "Mormon" mold |
| 21:51.50 | chadbryant | er, convert |
| 21:51.52 | sontek | I'm writing in Stewart for prez, Colbert for vice |
| 21:51.52 | sjansen | True. Colbert'd make a better VP. |
| 21:51.56 | fozzmoo | I think the Nancy Grace sucks thing is pretty well established. |
| 21:52.04 | herlo | chadbryant: what the *hell* are you talking about? |
| 21:52.07 | sjansen | Stewart does the hard work while Colbert entertains. |
| 21:52.21 | fozzmoo | I woudln't want Stewart/Colbert in office... who would entertain us?! |
| 21:52.27 | dataw0lf | y'know, if those guys ran |
| 21:52.29 | dataw0lf | they might actually win |
| 21:52.39 | herlo | chadbryant: I don't like it when people assume I'm LDS because I live in UTah |
| 21:52.42 | sontek | fozzmoo: We'd watch old recordings of Bush speeches |
| 21:52.51 | chadbryant | I have four words for Nancy Grace: |
| 21:52.52 | sontek | fozzmoo: I still crack up over them |
| 21:52.53 | chadbryant | "Elizabeth...it's still up." |
| 21:53.04 | dataw0lf | how about Ann Coulter? |
| 21:53.06 | fozzmoo | herlo: You're not LDS?! |
| 21:53.10 | Jayce^ | mmm, ann :) |
| 21:53.13 | sontek | dataw0lf: and Coulter is a whore! |
| 21:53.16 | sontek | Anne* |
| 21:53.17 | Jayce^ | great entertainer |
| 21:53.18 | herlo | fozzmoo: I don't participate, was raised that way |
| 21:53.20 | sjansen | Ann Coulter is destroying America. |
| 21:53.21 | fozzmoo | dataw0lf: Smart woman... a little... irresponsible at times. |
| 21:53.23 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: boo |
| 21:53.28 | sjansen | Ann Coulter should be deported. |
| 21:53.28 | dataw0lf | Smart woman? |
| 21:53.28 | sontek | Ann is a terrorist! |
| 21:53.34 | dataw0lf | Ann IS a terrorist |
| 21:53.38 | fozzmoo | herlo: Me too. My family was inactive... but I'm active now. |
| 21:53.45 | Jayce^ | brilliant woman |
| 21:53.48 | sjansen | Ann Coulter is a traitor. |
| 21:53.51 | dataw0lf | she's like the mutant offspring of this neo media we got going on |
| 21:53.58 | herlo | fozzmoo: other way around for me |
| 21:54.02 | fozzmoo | Yeah- she's pretty smart, but definitely take her with a pinch of salt. |
| 21:54.04 | sjansen | If we're at war, and Ann Coulter is a traitor, it stands to reason she should be shot. |
| 21:54.09 | Jayce^ | neo media, what a joke |
| 21:54.11 | dataw0lf | I volunteer |
| 21:54.27 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: yes, where it's all about entertainment |
| 21:54.33 | sontek | The only media I trust is South Park |
| 21:54.40 | fozzmoo | sontek: Explains a lot about you. |
| 21:54.47 | sjansen | Ann Coulter makes Rush Limbaugh look cuddly and responsible. |
| 21:54.49 | fozzmoo | sontek: But I still like you. |
| 21:54.50 | chadbryant | the mainstream media in America breeds ignorance and stupidity |
| 21:54.56 | sontek | fozzmoo: Its not my fault I prefer honest reporting! |
| 21:55.05 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Have you seen the Half Hour News Hour clip where Rush and ANn are Pres and VP in 2009? |
| 21:55.08 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, democrats are just mad that they don't own everything :) |
| 21:55.12 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Funny. |
| 21:55.32 | fozzmoo | "Mr. President, Nancy Pelosi is on the line." "Pelosi?! How did she get this number?!" |
| 21:55.43 | dataw0lf | did you guys see the poll they did where they asked a bunch of news / world related questions, and then asked where the people got their news from? |
| 21:55.46 | dataw0lf | FOX, right at the bottom |
| 21:55.50 | dataw0lf | Daily Show, like, number 2 |
| 21:56.01 | fozzmoo | Drudge Report and Digg? |
| 21:56.02 | Jayce^ | TV-- |
| 21:56.07 | dataw0lf | NPR was number 1 |
| 21:56.08 | dataw0lf | NPR++ |
| 21:56.28 | fozzmoo | Now there's balanced reporting. |
| 21:56.31 | sontek | Thats because Daily Show and Southpark are the only honest media these days! |
| 21:56.34 | sjansen | Lies. Everyone wants others to think they listen to NPR. |
| 21:56.35 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo, agreed |
| 21:57.08 | fozzmoo | Okay. I've got to go get my kids from daycare. |
| 21:57.13 | sjansen | But it's obvious most just get their news from [insert reality show] |
| 21:57.20 | sontek | fozzmoo: make sure you put on some NPR on the way home |
| 21:57.27 | sontek | fozzmoo: you don't want them growing up right winged |
| 21:57.38 | fozzmoo | sontek: Sure I do. |
| 21:57.43 | sontek | WHAT?! |
| 21:57.45 | sontek | TERRORIST! |
| 21:58.22 | fozzmoo | Otherwise, they'll be defeatist, entitlementist, enviromental-wacko, feminist, racists. |
| 21:58.34 | fozzmoo | Oh, and atheist. |
| 21:58.35 | fozzmoo | Can't have that. |
| 21:58.38 | fozzmoo | Not in my house. |
| 21:58.51 | sontek | Agnostic is the way to be |
| 21:58.55 | Jayce^ | federally-mandated on top of that :) |
| 21:59.04 | Jayce^ | screw the locality |
| 21:59.13 | fozzmoo | Agnostic is for people who are afraid to believe. :) |
| 21:59.15 | maquis | fozzmoo: most of that was actually left-wing |
| 21:59.19 | fozzmoo | At least atheists have a spine. |
| 21:59.31 | JoshH | jayce, these days republicans don't believe in state's rights either |
| 21:59.40 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: did you call me a democrat? |
| 21:59.47 | sjansen | I'd just like a politician that believed in balanced budgets. |
| 21:59.47 | Jayce^ | JoshH, when did I say I was a republican? |
| 21:59.53 | fozzmoo | JoshH: I don't think jayce or I are defending current republicans. |
| 22:00.09 | sjansen | Balanced budgets. Low taxes. Big sticks and soft voices. |
| 22:00.12 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: did you just say 'agnostic is for people who are afraid to believe' ? |
| 22:00.19 | Jayce^ | I just tend to hate democrats more often |
| 22:00.37 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: seriously, did you say that. |
| 22:00.50 | dataw0lf | because I'd like to attack YOUR spirituality / religion, if so. |
| 22:00.52 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, you missed the :) at the end :) |
| 22:01.03 | Jayce^ | he was replying to a friend (sontek) |
| 22:01.06 | JoshH | i understand Jayce^, you just implied that left leaning people are the ones who believe in federal power |
| 22:01.17 | dataw0lf | ok, so if I say "LDS is for child molestors :)" that's alright |
| 22:01.18 | sjansen | Mormon are sex crazed perverts. :) |
| 22:01.22 | dataw0lf | as long as I put a :) at the end |
| 22:01.25 | JoshH | and that was only true in the past |
| 22:01.27 | dataw0lf | or will people still be offended |
| 22:01.50 | Jayce^ | JoshH, they tend to have more nanny-state federal programs, vs spending on interstate/external (where there is a tiny bit of justification) |
| 22:02.06 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, as always, depends on who you are talking to :) |
| 22:02.16 | sjansen | :) no |
| 22:02.20 | sjansen | ;-P maybe |
| 22:02.31 | dataw0lf | making a blanket statement about a group of people directed at one person is still offensive to those other people |
| 22:02.44 | dataw0lf | so if I say to sjansen |
| 22:02.49 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 22:02.55 | dataw0lf | sjansen: haha all ragheads should burn in the flames of hell :) |
| 22:03.04 | dataw0lf | I'm sure there would be some Arabs that would be pretty peeved |
| 22:03.08 | dataw0lf | whether or not I'm addressing them |
| 22:03.09 | JoshH | most agnostics i've talked to aren't afraid to believe anythign, they just don't believe ancient and/or half baked stories without good evidence |
| 22:03.29 | JoshH | they simply have a problem with "faith" |
| 22:03.36 | dataw0lf | JoshH: I'm down for believing in half-baked stories. It's just the members of the organized religions are ridiculous :) |
| 22:03.49 | dataw0lf | if I could find a faith where I was the lone member, I'd be down |
| 22:04.03 | dataw0lf | and where I didn't have to listen to someone who claims to speak for God :) |
| 22:04.19 | JoshH | exactly |
| 22:04.46 | Jayce^ | mmmmm... final two episodes of Drive... FTW |
| 22:04.55 | dataw0lf | didn't it get cancelled |
| 22:04.56 | raventh1 | have you all seen the talking jesus? |
| 22:05.06 | dataw0lf | raventh1: I have a jesus action figure |
| 22:05.30 | sontek | Buddy Christ! |
| 22:05.40 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, yeah, but the last two eps were in the can |
| 22:05.48 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: ah |
| 22:05.51 | dataw0lf | is it any good? |
| 22:05.54 | Jayce^ | typical fox tv to cancel good shows.. |
| 22:06.07 | dataw0lf | yea, with Captain Mal, right? |
| 22:06.07 | Jayce^ | http://www.myspace.com/driveonfox <- eps via move networks tools |
| 22:06.10 | Jayce^ | yup |
| 22:06.16 | Jayce^ | was developing well |
| 22:06.26 | JoshH | Jayce^: i guess it depends what you consider a nanny state program though. leftists may feel that their programs benefit the population as a whole, just as you may believe that a military 25 times bigger and more expensive than that of any other nation benefits us all and thus is worth it |
| 22:06.35 | raventh1 | oh when did they air? |
| 22:06.42 | Jayce^ | the last two didn't raventh1 |
| 22:06.44 | raventh1 | because i've seen the rest of drive |
| 22:06.47 | raventh1 | ok |
| 22:07.06 | raventh1 | i still have an rss feed awaiting new torrents |
| 22:07.12 | raventh1 | so i'll get it :) |
| 22:07.24 | JoshH | unless you are an anarchist, you are ok with having some degree of a nanny state |
| 22:07.29 | Jayce^ | JoshH, nanny state == federally mandated, quotas, limits, contstraints, for the good of everyone because nobody should be responsible.. |
| 22:07.40 | raventh1 | oh |
| 22:07.42 | Jayce^ | raventh1, yeah, been watching for a dowload, nothign so far |
| 22:07.49 | raventh1 | nanny state ~ socialism |
| 22:08.10 | raventh1 | or if it's just limits, then communism ? |
| 22:08.10 | Jayce^ | JoshH, no, I feel the majority of programs that are enacted federally would be ok if it was at a state level, where it should be |
| 22:08.10 | raventh1 | ;) |
| 22:08.14 | Jayce^ | but not federally |
| 22:08.33 | JoshH | give me an examle |
| 22:08.49 | JoshH | of a federal program that you think should be handled by the states |
| 22:08.52 | raventh1 | or take it a level further and go community and keep the damn government away from MY MONEY |
| 22:09.50 | Jayce^ | ok, current topic, health care, police work, education, roads, EPA, arts... just to name a couple |
| 22:10.02 | raventh1 | harry potter |
| 22:10.19 | JoshH | so no federal money should be used for the EPA or highways? |
| 22:10.35 | Jayce^ | the federal government should deal with interstate matters, and external nations... |
| 22:10.45 | raventh1 | sale of gasoline can still have a tax for those that use roads |
| 22:11.39 | raventh1 | plus, if you make your community healthy it will be appealing to more people |
| 22:11.44 | Jayce^ | JoshH, only for specific interstate highways (and even then Ike really stretched executive limits on that), and no, not the epa, which has some of the most open-ended, carte-blanche tickets in the federal government |
| 22:11.53 | *** part/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 22:12.16 | JoshH | what if states had much different environmental policies, and river pollution in one state caused problems in another state? |
| 22:12.27 | Jayce^ | everthing shoudl start local, and bubble up through a series of filters (city, country, district, state) before ever touched by federal policy |
| 22:13.06 | JoshH | i agree in general |
| 22:13.26 | JoshH | what about california's medical marijuana, or oregon's assisted suicide, do you think the feds have a right to interfere with that? |
| 22:14.10 | JoshH | or rather, do you support the feds having that power |
| 22:14.15 | Jayce^ | JoshH, that's what the the original constitution provided for.. the individual states are supposed to work things out, with their own departments.. if no action is taken, then that is an interstate negotiation that will go through the courts.. but not be originally mandated by overwhelming beauracracy at the top |
| 22:14.36 | Jayce^ | as for that, states rights first, but they can't override federal mandates.. |
| 22:14.47 | Jayce^ | the big problem is, we always jump straight to the top now |
| 22:14.57 | fozzmoo | yep. Burn the Dept. Of Education. |
| 22:14.57 | Jayce^ | we always expect everything to be a federal law, immediately.. |
| 22:15.14 | Jayce^ | we've all lost the concepts of locality, and the state |
| 22:15.17 | herlo | ~lart sontek |
| 22:15.17 | ibot | does a little 'dpkg -P sontek' action |
| 22:15.48 | Jayce^ | sadly the biggest turning point for that was lincoln, but he *had* to do what he did.. |
| 22:15.48 | Jayce^ | of course, Jefferson was the big kicker on federal mandates |
| 22:15.50 | rsimpkins | I think it comes down to this question: Do you think states have the ability to govern themsevles, or are they inadequate in that regard and require federal oversight? |
| 22:16.02 | JoshH | Jayce^: i certainly agree about that, i mainly just take issue with the notion that one ideology is more apt to look for solutions at the federal level than the other |
| 22:16.10 | JoshH | since both are guilty of that these days |
| 22:16.16 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins, s/states/people/g in the same context.. |
| 22:16.27 | JoshH | i doubt many republicans want to leave gay marriage and abortion up to the states, for example |
| 22:16.58 | Jayce^ | JoshH, I think americans in general are the ones pushing that, but *traditionally* yes, democrats have been doing that since the new deal |
| 22:17.33 | Jayce^ | JoshH, so far they have *more* candidates that do want that... either leave it alone, or Mitt is the only one to say leave it to the states (specifically) |
| 22:17.49 | Jayce^ | democrats want federal intervention too, just the other way :) |
| 22:18.12 | JoshH | ya, both sides want to limit our freedoms, just in different ways |
| 22:18.41 | Jayce^ | yup |
| 22:20.05 | Jayce^ | and like other minority parties, stopped being led by and putting up the *strangest* candidates |
| 22:20.50 | Jayce^ | nah, parties are necessary in a republican style government.. but our current laws block anything but the top two from ever going anywhere anymore.. |
| 22:21.00 | Jayce^ | but that's yet another soapbox |
| 22:21.22 | JoshH | my problem with parties is their tendency to value the party over the rest of country |
| 22:21.42 | Jayce^ | oh yeah, having a larger sampling of 'parties' would stop a lot of that.. |
| 22:21.54 | Jayce^ | but that's exactly why7 they are forcing themselves to stay in power.. |
| 22:22.25 | Jayce^ | just look at the weekly memos that get leaked from the various parties, ordering certain "talking points" votes, even verbage to be used by the party members |
| 22:23.46 | Jayce^ | such as this week, the democrats have had certain words they were supposed to say, in conjunction with a certain number of interviews specifically highlighting president bush, and "failure", and "Iraq".. Why? because they were trying to create some new legislation and Sen Reid wanted to point to the upturn in discussion in public about those points.. |
| 22:24.17 | JoshH | yup, it gets pretty sickening |
| 22:24.31 | rsimpkins | I liked Franklin's form of polotics. He controlled the most popular newspaper around. So he would write stories by 'made up' people that attempted to pursuade people in to a certain way of thinking. Then when he had convinced the people he had an easier time getting the politicians to go along with it. |
| 22:24.34 | JoshH | i think one thing that would help is term limits for all politicians, 1 or 2 terms max |
| 22:24.55 | JoshH | i like the idea of citizens stepping up to hold public office then leaving, not being a politician as a career |
| 22:25.44 | JoshH | "senators for life" like hatch are one of the biggest problems |
| 22:26.24 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 22:27.07 | Jayce^ | term limits ++ |
| 22:27.14 | rsimpkins | So we have to convince a whole bunch of senetors like Kennedy to pass a constitutional ammendment putting them out of work? |
| 22:27.21 | rsimpkins | Sounds simple enough. |
| 22:27.26 | Jayce^ | hatch, reid, kennedy, etc |
| 22:28.03 | Jayce^ | pelosi :) |
| 22:29.17 | rsimpkins | I think we need to change 'the people' first, then changing the 'senetors' will be easy. |
| 22:29.31 | JoshH | rsimpkins: we could start by electing politicians who promise (and seem like they might keep their word) to try to get reforms like that passed |
| 22:29.51 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Right - changing the people. |
| 22:29.58 | JoshH | but ya, these kind of problems are the ones that the average american is all but powerless to fix :) |
| 22:30.53 | rsimpkins | JoshH: I agree that one average american cant, however, I believe that a hundred million average americans can. |
| 22:31.27 | rsimpkins | We have this structure because this is what we wanted. |
| 22:32.40 | rsimpkins | so, average american cares about 1) Gas prices being high. 2) Our boys getting killed to keep gas prices low. 3) Having a job. 4) ??? |
| 22:33.16 | fozzmoo | health care? |
| 22:33.44 | rsimpkins | I'm just curious what the 'average' american cares about - because I think if you figure that out it will explain the current political climate we are in. |
| 22:34.12 | JoshH | the average american cares about american idol, football, getting their hair done, etc, and not much else |
| 22:34.30 | rsimpkins | JoshH: If that is true - does it explain the current political climate? |
| 22:34.56 | mrpull- | mmmmm fooootballll |
| 22:34.58 | JoshH | i think politicians in general just don't feel any pressure to get anything done |
| 22:35.28 | Supaplex | I'd have to agree with JoshH |
| 22:35.38 | JoshH | usually it comes down to say, a politicians who is against abortion, running against one that is for it, and people will vote for whichever one believes they way they do, if they even vote at all |
| 22:35.49 | rsimpkins | It is probably closer to: security (self, family, financial), prosperity (self, family), and happiness (self, family). |
| 22:37.55 | rsimpkins | I think the nation will shift to the Democratic party - until taxes start to get raised significantly - then we'll shift back the other way. |
| 22:38.10 | rsimpkins | The democrats charge you more money for the same antics as the republicans. |
| 22:38.17 | rsimpkins | I'll take the cheaper option. :) |
| 22:39.28 | JoshH | shifting back and forth is fine actually |
| 22:39.44 | JoshH | if we have one party rule everything for a full 8 years, that's when things get seriously messed up |
| 22:40.21 | JoshH | if bush was a hardcore democrat, and had a dem congress backing him up, things would have been just as bad |
| 22:40.48 | rsimpkins | I like having split executive and congressional arms. Demo vs. Repo (either way). |
| 22:41.14 | rsimpkins | It makes me laugh, and usually only the most obvious stuff gets done. |
| 22:41.16 | Jayce^ | and yet they keep trying to force legislation to give the same rights to both |
| 22:41.44 | Jayce^ | everybody expects the president to legislate, and congress to execute.. and the judges to do all 3 |
| 22:52.39 | *** join/#utah jlombrozo (n=jlombroz@208-44-169-156.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 22:53.03 | raventh1 | sup jeebs |
| 22:53.23 | sontek | djeebs: did you hear the new Harry Potter book got leaked? |
| 22:53.53 | djeebs | sub sub |
| 22:53.58 | djeebs | *sup sup |
| 22:54.02 | djeebs | *sigh* |
| 22:54.13 | djeebs | did you hear me leak on the new Harry Potter book? |
| 22:59.42 | *** part/#utah decriptor (i=decripto@nat/novell/x-53ccb6e0209eb4db) |
| 23:23.54 | mheath | I still find Stallmans complaint against "Tivoization" to be stupid. |
| 23:24.17 | mheath | I don't find anything wrong with hardware limits on what software can be run on a device |
| 23:24.45 | mheath | Thats necessary for assuring continuous proper operation and preventing tampering with certain devices |
| 23:28.56 | djeebs | but where's the fun in preventing tampering? |
| 23:29.05 | djeebs | where would we be w/o the Xbox Media Console?? |
| 23:29.22 | djeebs | *Media Center =) |
| 23:29.25 | raventh1 | ./~ free the code hackers ./~ |
| 23:29.35 | djeebs | fight the future! |
| 23:29.42 | raventh1 | HACK THE GIBSON! |
| 23:30.09 | raventh1 | I find tons of problems with hardware limits. |
| 23:30.17 | raventh1 | one, I bought the hardware, not a license to the hardware |
| 23:30.21 | raventh1 | it's mine |
| 23:30.30 | raventh1 | I can tell it to run 0s or 1s if I want to |
| 23:31.26 | mheath | What about your phone? When you go out and buy a phone, to you expect the cell phone provider to provide you with everything you need to completely rewrite the software on the phone? |
| 23:31.41 | raventh1 | if I buy a real phone yes :) |
| 23:31.43 | mheath | Do you expect the cell phone provider to still support your phone on the network after you've completely rewritten it? |
| 23:31.44 | raventh1 | I have a fake one |
| 23:31.55 | raventh1 | Yes, I do |
| 23:31.59 | raventh1 | because they control the network |
| 23:32.01 | raventh1 | not the phone |
| 23:32.16 | chadbryant | can you imagine a computer that limited you to Windows? |
| 23:32.18 | mheath | But the phone working correctly is necessary for proper interreaction with the network. |
| 23:32.32 | raventh1 | sure, and if it's not, then don't let me on the network |
| 23:32.35 | mheath | Think of this |
| 23:32.36 | raventh1 | what's wrong with that? |
| 23:32.57 | mheath | A small, embedded electronics device |
| 23:33.04 | mheath | It can be easily customized and extended with whatever software you want |
| 23:33.15 | mheath | But the basic operation requires specific configurations and software |
| 23:33.16 | raventh1 | mheath: think of this: car manufacturers wont let you put blue seat covers in your car, just because. |
| 23:33.35 | mheath | It is designed, conceptually, to use certain protocols, and support certain things |
| 23:33.40 | raventh1 | mheath: software compliance and software restrictions are two seperate things |
| 23:34.19 | mheath | raventh1: Its bad to put things in place that reformat with a known good image if corruption is detected? |
| 23:34.48 | raventh1 | depends on your definition of corruption |
| 23:34.48 | mheath | Stallmans rant against "tivoization" is against safeguards like that |
| 23:34.57 | mheath | Because, you see, SOMEWHERE in the software there has to be some kind of trust |
| 23:35.03 | raventh1 | I'm for open hardware that I can tinker with |
| 23:35.07 | raventh1 | no |
| 23:35.10 | mheath | Some kind of digital signature authentication to assure that at least one necessary bit of the software is OK |
| 23:35.11 | raventh1 | there doesn't have to be trust |
| 23:35.40 | raventh1 | there has to be compliance |
| 23:35.50 | mheath | So, what |
| 23:35.58 | mheath | They can install a bootloader virus on it |
| 23:36.01 | raventh1 | they have to work together, that doesn't mean that they have to take everything one says as truth |
| 23:36.05 | raventh1 | ya |
| 23:36.07 | raventh1 | they can |
| 23:36.12 | mheath | But as long as it looks like and kinda behaves like the right thing, its OK? |
| 23:36.24 | mheath | And its morally wrong to make any safeguards against that? |
| 23:36.25 | raventh1 | and as long as you protect yourself from it |
| 23:36.34 | mheath | THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT |
| 23:36.38 | mheath | protection against it! |
| 23:36.45 | raventh1 | I'm talking about open hardware |
| 23:36.51 | mheath | I'mt alking about small embedded devices |
| 23:36.51 | raventh1 | I'm not quite sure what you're talking about |
| 23:37.03 | raventh1 | I like small embedded devices, I've made a few |
| 23:37.06 | mheath | This isn't some thing where you can pop in a CD and reinstall Windows and Ubuntu, or whatever |
| 23:37.08 | raventh1 | and I can run my own code on them |
| 23:37.25 | mheath | A commercial product, that would cost probably $50 to reimage counting shipping costs and repair time |
| 23:37.34 | raventh1 | and if I sell it to someone else I expect that they can reimage or replace my code if they want to |
| 23:38.03 | raventh1 | not if you tell them to buy an rs232 cable, and plug it in |
| 23:38.07 | raventh1 | then run a little patcher |
| 23:38.15 | raventh1 | seriously, there is no reason to have locked hardware |
| 23:38.27 | mheath | OH! But, wait! |
| 23:38.44 | mheath | That means that somewhere on the hardware level there has to be support for patching. |
| 23:38.47 | raventh1 | what I was referring to about protecting yourself is this: networking protections against foreign untrusted entities |
| 23:38.49 | mheath | For fixing a broken system |
| 23:38.54 | raventh1 | no |
| 23:39.02 | raventh1 | there is place to write to memorty |
| 23:39.04 | raventh1 | memory |
| 23:39.13 | raventh1 | to flash |
| 23:39.22 | raventh1 | where the original execution code was in the first place |
| 23:40.12 | raventh1 | now |
| 23:40.17 | raventh1 | if you take xbox as an example |
| 23:40.28 | raventh1 | I'm against people being on 'trusted networks' with untrusted clients |
| 23:40.33 | raventh1 | this is a completely different point |
| 23:41.01 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 23:41.05 | mheath | raventh1: I'm refering specifically to the HHES concept I've talked about endlessly in here. |
| 23:41.13 | raventh1 | and that's totally fine, because if you are not the owner of the network you have no right to such access if it's deemed that you shouldn't have it |
| 23:41.20 | mheath | You're talking about a $4,000+ system |
| 23:41.32 | raventh1 | xbox360? |
| 23:41.37 | raventh1 | avr? |
| 23:41.44 | raventh1 | avrs cost 3.15 usd |
| 23:41.55 | mheath | Dozens of hardware components working together in a perfect way |
| 23:42.38 | raventh1 | mheath: what system is $4,000+? |
| 23:42.56 | mheath | The HHES! |
| 23:43.26 | djeebs | HHES? |
| 23:44.16 | mheath | ts a capable system, but its designed entirely to be an appliance-style system. Thats part of the beauty of it. You plug it into the wall, like you would a new TV, or an XBOX, and it _works_. It's ready to go |
| 23:44.31 | raventh1 | uh |
| 23:44.36 | sontek | HHES is short for modded xbox |
| 23:44.38 | raventh1 | have you ever done any embedded programming? |
| 23:44.40 | djeebs | so why are you trying to prevent people from modifying it? |
| 23:44.49 | mheath | djeebs: I'm NOT. |
| 23:45.41 | mheath | The Wireless Tablet Terminals I've designed are setup using a combination of hardware and software so that if theres unexpected changes in their memory, they revert to a known good image |
| 23:46.08 | mheath | They are embeded computer based, but their ENTIRE PURPOSE is to act as a terminal unit. |
| 23:46.45 | mheath | If you want to buy a truly open, 100% moddable, do whatever-you-want-with-it computer, be my guest. Have fun. I own many, and love it. |
| 23:47.15 | mheath | But don't give me software telling me its "free" and has so many freedoms - do whatever you want with it! Have the source! etc. and then limit stuff like that |
| 23:47.22 | raventh1 | mheath: you do understand that powerpc and intel processors have a hard time of doing exactly what you are talking about, and they have multimillion dollar companies working on things like that for just powerpc ~ intel interchangability |
| 23:47.26 | raventh1 | right? |
| 23:47.57 | mheath | raventh1: Doing what? |
| 23:48.13 | raventh1 | running any code |
| 23:48.32 | mheath | Huh? Processor manufacturers have trouble running any code? I don't follow you. |
| 23:48.49 | raventh1 | powerpc code on intel hardware, and vice versa |
| 23:48.57 | mheath | When did I say I was doing that? |
| 23:49.37 | mheath | sontek: modded XBox? What? |
| 23:50.03 | raventh1 | I'm not sure I follow on you're whole idea of hhes |
| 23:50.12 | raventh1 | in fact i'm sure I don't |
| 23:50.17 | mheath | IT DOESN'T MATTER if you follow it |
| 23:50.20 | mheath | The point is, its a lie |
| 23:50.23 | mheath | saying that software is free |
| 23:50.32 | raventh1 | oh I thought you were saying hhes is a lie |
| 23:50.35 | mheath | And then preventing its use |
| 23:50.52 | raventh1 | are you saying gpl? |
| 23:50.53 | raventh1 | gpl2? |
| 23:50.56 | raventh1 | gpl3 ? |
| 23:51.06 | mheath | GPL3 restricts this now. |
| 23:51.25 | mheath | Thanks to Stallmans fight against 'tivoization' (Which is probably the stupidest term I've ever heard) |
| 23:52.30 | raventh1 | I haven't spent the time to read the differences between gpl2 and 3 |
| 23:53.27 | mheath | See, stallman felt that the Tivo abused the GPL |
| 23:53.57 | mheath | The Tivo has a few safeguards at the hardware level to check addons. |
| 23:54.18 | mheath | Make sure things were working correctly |
| 23:54.33 | mheath | But, OMG, it prevents you from running anything you want! |
| 23:54.53 | mheath | (Nevermind you bought this as a cheap device specifically to record TV on...) |
| 23:55.12 | raventh1 | thats not enough information on the stance and what you disagree with to argue with you on it, do you have a particular article you could link me to ? |
| 23:55.38 | mheath | Since it uses Linux, which is GPL, Stallman saw that as ana buse of your freedoms to extend the software |
| 23:55.59 | mheath | Because, my Stallmans logic, you could extend the software, but not in turn run it on the TiVo |
| 23:56.09 | mheath | raventh1: google for tivoization |
| 23:57.05 | raventh1 | well, it kind of is |
| 23:57.15 | raventh1 | the thing about linux is it is software |
| 23:57.24 | raventh1 | they are using software that has a license |
| 23:57.40 | raventh1 | so if I had my own hardware and I wanted to run linux on it, I'd be bound by whatever license it had IE gpl |
| 23:58.07 | mheath | Yes |
| 23:58.20 | mheath | But the magnitude of this changes is that, you no longer have freedoms like that. |
| 23:58.27 | raventh1 | if you want to use linux or windows, you better be ready to read the license agreements, and I think the GPL any flavor is far and above that of any MS EULA |
| 23:58.35 | mheath | Its essentially restricting what hardware you're allowed to run GPLv3 software on. |
| 23:58.43 | raventh1 | nope |
| 23:58.51 | mheath | Yes, it does |
| 23:58.52 | raventh1 | it's restricting what you can do if you use GPLv3 software |
| 23:59.04 | raventh1 | no one said they had to use linux / gplv3 |
| 23:59.23 | raventh1 | and no one said you have to either |
| 23:59.29 | mheath | So it's not Free Software? |
| 23:59.41 | raventh1 | mheath: so freedom isn't free? |
| 23:59.59 | mheath | It's only Free-if--you're-running-it-on-a-platform-that-agrees-with-our-views? |
