IRC log for #utah on 20070711

00:03.52findlaythere's a bunch of kernel segfaults
00:04.03findlaythey look like they have to do with paging
00:04.38klys_hmm, did you have a swap file or a swap partition?
00:05.10findlayyes
00:05.22nick125_What the heck, I just emerge --sync'ed and got a bad tree. :/
00:05.36findlaynick125_: me too?
00:05.38nick125_(Bunch of ebuilds with 1-4 bytes missing)
00:05.50nick125_(So the verification fails)
00:06.01findlayhm, wasn't having that problem
00:06.12mheathooh, thats what I'll install
00:06.15mheathGentoo!
00:06.17mheath:P
00:14.22findlayand then I get: Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die... and that's the end of my remote access
00:14.42findlaythat freaked me out at first, until I found that screen prints it out when it gets killed
00:14.45findlay:)
00:15.15mheathLOL
00:15.20mheathisn't that from Adventure?
00:17.40klys_findlay: unless you think it was overclocked or too hot: http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/Kernel/2003-09/374index.html
00:17.42brac[Linux-Kernel: thread index level 2]
00:39.10Lakshmisargun_s1reen: ...poke
01:22.51sargun_s1reenI'm going to kill my treo
01:30.08ScytheBlade1lol @ http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ChangeLog-2.6.22.1
01:38.40mheathSo, apparenetly Fandango or Google Movies is broken.
01:38.51mheathWanted to preorder tickets for Harry Potter tonight
01:39.06mheathGoogle Movies shows one showing at 12:01 at the local theatre
01:39.15mheathyou click on the link, fandango reports that it is sold out.
01:39.27mheathCinemark is actually showing it on four screens
01:39.39mheathTheir own website shows 12:01, 12:02, 12:03, and 12:04
01:39.47mheathAll of them except for 12:01 have seats available
01:46.30mheathlmao
01:46.41mheaththough I guess the 12:01 people CAN claim they saw it 'first' :P
01:59.59sargun_s1reenhaha
02:00.26sargun_s1reenunless the speed of the 12;01 is slightly off
02:01.49mheathsargun_s1reen: sure it will be. I was joking.
02:02.09mheathI'm guessing the different times are just ways of splitting the showings up and having their computer system handle it well.
02:02.16sargun_s1reenbasically you need to make your reel move 1% faster.
02:02.31mheathLast time I went to a big showing, it didn't even matter which one you were signed up for
02:02.40sargun_s1reenah
02:02.43mheaththe ticket taker just split everyone up
02:03.13mheathfirst group goes to theatre 1, second groun to 2, third to 3, fourth to 4, fifth to 1, etc.
02:03.17sargun_s1reenmheath: when I went they had to space them 5 minutes apart, and I talk to the tech guy there later and he said their system didn't allow starting movies within 120 seconds of each other
02:03.26sargun_s1reener
02:03.27sargun_s1reen100
02:03.33mheathmeh
02:03.37mheaththis is an analog system
02:03.50mheathIt starts when the person puts a roll of film in the machine :P
02:09.21sargun_s1reenlol
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02:42.04mheathSo, has any one here used Stow before?
02:42.18mheathI'm thinking about setting it up on a system of mine.
02:42.21mheathUsing it for package management
02:43.58mheathsargun_screen: I'm paying less than your cheapest VPS plan for my current VPS
02:44.40mheathAnd I have more of everything except for CPUs (does your 1 CPU mean private use of one physical CPU?)
02:47.17tristanbob_Jayce^: have you seen this? http://digitalpaint.planetquake.gamespy.com/screens.html
02:47.19brac[.:] Digital Paint [:.:] Paintball 2.0 [:.:] Screenshots [:.]
02:48.33sargun_screenstab nick125__
02:48.36sargun_screenits his fault.
02:48.51sargun_screenAnd consider, are you getting dedicated RAM/Disk/IP/etc...
02:49.17mheathsargun_screen: How is Disk or IP non-dedicated?
02:49.47mheathtristanbob_: kinda an old concept
02:50.01mheaththe old James Bond/007 game for the N64 had a paintball gun
02:50.13mheath*paintball mode
02:50.21mheathThough it lacked real paintball gun stuff
02:51.23sargun_screenmheath: they can over-allocated disk
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03:00.22sargun_screenis there a snapshot system for ext3?
03:00.39mheath"snapshot system"?
03:00.43mheathwhat do you mean, exactly?
03:00.45sargun_screenI remember seeing something where you could append @DATESTAMP to a file and you could grab the version of the file at that time, but I can't find it anymore
03:00.45Supaplexsargun_screen: like lvm2?
03:00.48sargun_screenversion control
03:00.50sargun_screensort of
03:00.54sargun_screenlike SVN on disk
03:01.00sargun_screenfor everything
03:01.02Supaplexsounds new to me
03:01.03mheathuh
03:01.14mheathThat would be tricky to do in Linux
03:01.19mheathWith conventional linux filesystems
03:01.35sargun_screenpossibly a fuse overlay?
03:01.40mheath(Though trivial to implement in GNU Hurd ;-) )
03:02.08sargun_screenhaha
03:02.15mheathI'm not joking.
03:02.17Supaplexunionfs!
03:02.48sargun_screencan unionfs do that?
03:03.23mheathnah
03:03.35Supaplexit'll overlay, but you'd have to have some daemon swiping stuff away that wasn't backed up every so often
03:04.14mheathlol..
03:04.32sargun_screenhaha
03:04.50mheathSomeone made a /dev/one module for Linux (Think /dev/zero) to compare and contrast Linux and GNU/Hurd programming
03:05.34mheathIt was 77 lines of code...the hurd equivelent was 47 lines of code.
03:05.44elgI can do it in 3 lines of shell
03:05.45elgor less
03:05.58mheathelg: we're talking actual proper operating system modules
03:05.59elg#!/bin/sh
03:06.09elgmkfifo /dev/one
03:06.25elgwhile true; do echo 1 > /dev/one; done
03:06.30sargun_screenhttp://wayback.sourceforge.net/
03:06.31brac[Wayback: User-level Versioning File System for Linux]
03:06.32Supaplexperl -e '$!=1;print chr(1) while 1'
03:06.33elg# NO WARRANTY
03:06.46mheathelg: that would tie up your system
03:06.52mheathBecause its not on demenand
03:06.55elgmheath: meaningless
03:07.09mheathI'm talking about true operating system modules, with error handling, privileging, etc.
03:07.16Supaplexthe fifo would start blocking until it's read from
03:07.23mheathHurd can implement simple modules in 30 lines of code less than Linux
03:07.23elgright, so it might take slightly more sophistication. but it's the unix way
03:07.32mheathAnd its arguably simpler, easier to read code.
03:07.33elgwhat error handling do you need for a /dev/one?
03:07.42elgnot easier than a fully userspace program
03:07.57Supaplexhax0rs has my /dev/one, what shall I do?!?!
03:08.15sargun_screenhttp://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/02/0413253&from=rss
03:09.16elgit's a terrible demonstration, even if it's a valid point
03:09.19elgwhich it probably is
03:09.34mheathelg: It's not really to demonstrate that
03:09.41elg~onjoin jsmith apt-get remove appendix
03:09.41ibotelg: ok
03:09.43mheathIts just from a simple programming guidebook for the Hurd
03:09.56mheathAnd is just used to compare the two, not to show that one requires fewer lines of code
03:09.57elgnot to demonstrate what?
03:10.15elgso you just took it out of context on your own?
03:10.24mheathIt's still a valid point
03:10.27mheathLike you said :)
03:11.06elgmicrokernels are good design in many ways, in spite of your arguments
03:11.07Supaplexoh but how much machine code will it use?
03:11.32mheathelg: What? How are my arguments against microkernels?
03:11.52sargun_screenHURD doesn't use machine code it uses GNUCODE
03:12.06mheathI was saying something programmed for a microkernel took far less code than an exact equivelent for a monolithic kernel
03:12.32mheath(that was an outdated example, anyway...I think it would now take more lines of code to 'properly' write something like that for Linux)
03:12.44elgand I'm saying it's a worthless example and your fanboism isn't helping the greater cause of microkernels
03:13.00mheathSupaplex: what do you mean? Nothing you program in the Hurd really needs Machine code...
03:13.20sargun_screennothing in linux need it either
03:13.39Supaplexgcc -> gas -> hello
03:14.21mheathNot to mention that the Linux example..A) can cause problems with your system if programmed incorrectly and B) requires root priveleges to load correctly..
03:15.09elgeven the shell script needs root permission to make /dev/one
03:15.27mheathIt is a bad example
03:15.40mheathWe're comparing the creation of character device modules
03:15.49mheathNot litearlly "/dev/one" file
03:16.02mheath/dev/one on Hurd would take root, too, depending on directory permissions
03:16.16mheathbut loading any module in Linux takes root perms
03:16.51mheathelg: how is it "fanboism" to say "I think _____ does ____ better than ____"?
03:16.59mheathI think Linux does everything better than Windows
03:17.08mheatham I now a Linux "fanboi" ?
03:17.12elgsure
03:17.42elgi'm not basing my assesment on the past 5 minutes alone
03:18.40mheathnfs translator is cool...
03:19.00Supaplexmheath: how so?
03:19.19mheathSupaplex: same concept as before, applied to a bigger scale
03:19.57mheathBasically a translator allows userspace programs to handle standard filesystem calls for a given folder, or file
03:20.05Supaplexspiffy
03:20.15mheathFor example, in the Hurd, NFS is handled by the NFS translator
03:20.32Supaplexcan I compile hurd stuff on linux, and run it on a whimpy p133 or something?
03:20.47mheathSo rather than like, in Linux, requiring NFS code to be glued into the kernel and then userland tools to work with it, you simply configure it so a partcular folder is handled by teh NFS translator
03:20.49SupaplexI suppose so, but how much am I in for
03:21.07mheathSupaplex: well, Debian GNU/Hurd runs well on my Pentium 2 450
03:21.12Supaplexhow does all this abstraction affect performance?
03:22.04Supaplexmy spare radius box lives side by side all my other vserver guests on a 2x p3 1.1ghzish box now. just a little upgrade. :)
03:23.18mheathSupaplex: It does affect performance, slightly. But its not as abstracted as you'd think
03:23.46mheathThats thanks to the microkernel design.
03:24.32mheathSupaplex: It's a cool system and quite functional, but does still have some stability problems. I'd still only install it to play with, not run on a mission critical machine.
03:24.53Supaplexthat's why I let it have fun on the p133 >:)
03:25.29elgi've used a real microkernel system that actually does work, is stable, has performance (real-time) and is used in mission-critical production (as in NASA)
03:25.37sargun_screenname?
03:25.41mheathIf you're interested in installing it, give me a day to finish the Debian GNU/Hurd installation docs I'm working on. You can be my test subject :P
03:26.12elgQNX. not open source, but they have a free beer noncommercial version
03:26.20Supaplexwhat if I segfault ;)
03:26.40mheathLots of systems use microkernels. I still don't feel that many of them make as good as use of them as the Hurd.
03:26.53mheath(not to say that they're bad systems)
03:27.29mheathFor example, Mac OS X rides on a microkernel that is a spin off of the same kernel as GNU Mach
03:27.30elgyou haven't used qnx
03:27.35Supaplexhaha. I just said process exploder.
03:27.47SupaplexI think it's the MSFT cooties
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03:28.53mheathAnother cool translator concept:
03:29.00mheathwell, not concept...example
03:29.16mheathsettrans -cap /alpha /hurd/ftpfs alpha.gnu.org:/
03:29.42mheathcd /alpha & ls now shows the contents of ftp://alpha.gnu.org/
03:29.47mheathand thats a trivial thing to program
03:30.43mheathSupaplex: A good start would be Debian GNU/Hurd. They got install instructions for both using their install CD-ROM's (Theres 4; you only need 1 for a network-enabled machine)
03:31.00mheath*and for migrating from Linux
03:31.30mheathInfact, thats what the install CD's too. Hurd still doesn't play too well with booting off CD-ROM, so the CD-ROM boots linux and uses that to format the HD and unpack the base filesystem.
03:31.36mheaths/too/do/g
03:33.08Supaplexneat.
03:33.27SupaplexI had fun with the kfreebsd debian port a few months ago.
03:34.12mheathSupaplex: It should work well on that 133 machine
03:34.18mheathLike I said, give me a day to finsih my install docs
03:34.28mheathTHe current docs are really stupid and can be less than helpful for a new user
03:34.52mheathFor example they tell you to "boot with grub" and don't tell you how, et.
03:35.03mheathanyway, off to my sisters and later to Harry Potter. Have a good night, all.
03:36.50Supaplexalrighty.
03:37.03Supaplexno rush. I just barely migrated that piticular box :)
03:37.08sargun_screenmheath: have fun
03:37.28Supaplexapparently adobe acrobat trial can help you edit pdfs with stupid form fields.
03:38.26Supaplexsome genius (yes, sarcasm) reused the same field ids down the page, so you text shows up in all the other blocks when you add "employeer" for one section. dumb.
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04:02.57Supaplexwahou. all fixed.
04:03.08Supaplexwps: greetings :)
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04:16.13herloJayce^: ping
04:40.51levi_homeGood evening
04:45.20*** join/#utah klys (n=daniel@72.8.101.65)
05:08.34Supaplex*ahCHOOoo*
05:09.59sontekgazooontite
05:20.35Supaplexthankyou
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05:34.53levi_homeI saw a guy using an iPhone on the plane today.  I want.
05:34.59Sargunoh
05:35.10Sargunex22 k = (ex22) *(realloc(&OMG, sizeof(OMG)));
05:35.21Sarguncauses: ex22.cpp:37: error: 'void*' is not a pointer-to-object type
05:35.26SargunAny ideas guys?
05:38.35klyshow about casting the pointer?  ( ex22* )realloc( ... );
05:39.50klysfor an implicit nto copy, use *( ex22* )realloc( ... );
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05:46.32SunSparcAny Gentoo users here?
05:46.36SunSparcAwake?
05:46.38SunSparc:)
05:47.21Sargunno
05:47.21Sargun:-P
05:47.22Sargunyeah!
05:47.26Sargunwhat do you neeD?
05:48.21SunSparc:)
05:48.32SunSparcI am trying to use my Gentoo LiveCD as a boot disk.  I plugged in a Windows hdd and it is booting that instead of my linux drive.  At the LiveCD boot menu can I tell it to boot off my linux drive instead of booting the LiveCD?
05:49.15SunSparcI tried feeding it the grub info but it complained
05:49.16SunSparckernel /boot/gentoo2006.0-2.6 root=/dev/hdc3
05:49.21SargunAre you a C++ coder?
05:49.25Sargunby any -remote- chance?
05:49.57SunSparc:)  Not really.  I took the class in college and made a simple calculator app is all.
05:50.22Sargunwait if you get to the live CD boot menu
05:50.30Sargunit goes on to go to windows?
05:51.58SunSparcNo.  I have a Gentoo Linux system.  I have a friend whose hdd is dying, it is XP, so I plugged it into my Linux box to work on it in linux, however it apparently is set to be the primary drive so it is booting XP instead of Linux.  So I put in my LiveCD to try and use it as a boot disk.
05:52.36SunSparcI could mess with the partition table on it but that could cause me problems.
05:53.38Sargunhm
05:53.50SargunAre you sure the CD is set before the drive in the bios?
05:58.06SunSparc?
05:58.26SunSparcThe LiveCD?
05:58.55SunSparcThe LiveCD boot up to Gentoo just fine, but it is the LiveCD gentoo and not my actual Gentoo installation.
05:59.51SunSparcI am wondering if when I get to the LiveCD boot menu, before it loads the LiveCD Gentoo, if I can instead redirect it to boot from the Gentoo hard disk.
06:00.07SunSparcI apologize if I am not making any sense.  :)
06:00.39Sargunoh
06:00.45Sargunyou need a live CD with a boot loader
06:01.08Sargundoes the system have a floppy?
06:01.54SunSparcYes, it has a floppy.  I guess I could install grub on a floppy and use that as a boot disk if the LiveCD will not work as one.
06:04.13SargunI do reccomend that
06:08.19SunSparcDoh!
06:08.53SunSparcSomeone in the Gentoo room just suggested that if my BIOS can do it I should set my Linux drive to be the boot drive.
06:09.08SunSparcI checked and sure enough the XP drive was the default
06:09.18SunSparcI changed it and now it is booting just fine.
06:09.33SunSparcThanks for your time Sargun.
06:09.34SunSparc:)
06:09.58Sargunno problem.
06:10.04Sargunsorry I couldn't help
06:10.33SunSparcNo worries.  I appreciate your willingness.
06:10.40SunSparcHave a good night!
06:10.40SunSparc:)
06:14.11klyssargun: you doing something with c++ ?
06:14.28Sargunyeah
06:14.34klyssame problem
06:14.35klys?
06:17.26Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:17.26Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:17.30Sargungives me:
06:17.34Sargunex22.cpp:50: error: invalid conversion from 'void*' to 'ex22*'
06:18.00klysright, again, cast the pointer: f = ( ex22* )malloc( 1000 );
06:19.13klysyou can declare variables anywhere within your function, so it might make more sense to say ex22* f = ( ex22* )malloc( 1000 );  though it definately makes the most sense to say ex22* f = new f();
06:19.34Sargunah
06:19.37klyser, new ex22();
06:19.45SargunI thought casting it would be (ex22)
06:19.47Sargunnot (ex22*)
06:20.21klyspointers are type sensitive; they are pointers all the same.  you can cast any type** or type* to an int.
06:20.29Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:20.29Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:20.29Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:20.29Sargun/      free(tmp);
06:20.29Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:20.29Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:20.33Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:20.36Sarguner
06:20.59Sargunthat last cout shouldn't be in there! you can't cout binary data!
06:21.34klysdon't forget to new/malloc your string before copying to p, which then points to nowhere
06:23.21klyswhen using c++, avoid malloc(), realloc(), and free(); libc would advise you to use new and delete instead
06:23.55klys...for compatibility and integrity when interfacing with libc
06:24.21klysI've had some strange libc errors when I've mix-matched in some programs
06:24.53Sargunhmm.
06:25.25Sargun<PROTECTED>
06:25.32klys...on the stack
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06:25.50klysunless it's static or global, then it goes in the data segment (asm ds)
06:25.52SargunYay!
06:25.58Sargunok, now to get to the neat part.
06:28.54klysthere is also an int-length allocation for p
06:29.55Sargunc0bf08a0040805
06:30.03SargunI need to disassemble that.
06:30.12Sargunand see if my assumptions are correct
06:30.16Sargunclasses aren't just pointers
06:30.17Sargunright?
06:31.08klystry ndisasm
06:31.37Sargunhypothetically thought, copying a class' instance out of memory
06:31.44Sargunshould allow me to throw it right back in
06:31.46klys...and just type the numbers in beav
06:31.47Sargunand make it work
06:32.04klyswell, unles anything points to it
06:33.20klysclasses are metadata.  instantiations can either be the class (vtable and struct) or pointers to heap-allocated data
06:33.56klysinstantiations == instances (in this context)
06:34.18Sargunso your saying hypothetically this may just well be a a pointer?
06:34.25Sargunthe instance could be a pointer
06:34.35klysno, the pointer points to the instance
06:34.48klyssorry I said it wrong
06:35.04Sargunbut, OMG, the actual instance contains the opcode for the class ex22?
06:35.11klysinstances of classes are indicated by your variable which is probably a pointer from new
06:35.44klysclass metadata seldom includes actual code, though vtables include function pointers
06:36.01Sargunhow can I find out where the actual opcodes are?
06:36.07Sargunor objects in general?
06:36.17Sargun&object should do it, right?
06:37.19klystry typedef ( void* f() ) func; void fun() { } int main() { func it = fun; return 0; }
06:37.48Sarguntry grabbing the opcode of that?
06:38.08Sarguncout will stop on a null character right?
06:38.15Sargunif a string has a null char in it
06:38.18klysactually, typedef ( ( void )*f ) func; // or something similar, now I'm wondering
06:38.19Sargunit'll stop
06:38.57klyscout will output any string enclosed in ""; until the null in said string, and simply attach the next istream
06:39.21Sargunhow can you make it go until the end of the stream?
06:40.01klysit should go all the way and simply disclude anything past an individual null iirc
06:40.56Sargunwell what about two nulls together?
06:41.54klysok, this gets confusing but it works: typedef void(* func)();
06:42.11Sargunlet me try this on a function
06:44.27klysfunc it = &fun;
06:44.44klysit's different for member functions
06:45.18klys<PROTECTED>
06:45.19klys<PROTECTED>
06:45.50klysthis has been tested, works
06:46.30Sargunhow do I get the size of a function -- in memory?
06:47.12klysat the end: void func() { ... } void func_end();
06:47.14Sargunmplay.cpp:15: error: ISO C++ forbids applying 'sizeof' to an expression of function type
06:47.24klysthen subtract
06:49.16Sargunmplay.cpp:(.text+0x12a): undefined reference to `func_end()'
06:49.18klysnow, code segments are generally loaded into rea-only memory.  if you want around this restriction, see nasm's rdoff project code.  they load code into an array.
06:49.42SargunNo, see I can copy anything into memory.
06:49.44Sargunright?
06:49.54klysoh, void func_end(){}
06:49.57Sargunand then cast that as a function
06:50.00SargunI do have that
06:50.12klysyou can subtract the two values and it's int-length
06:50.24Sargunooh, oops, I was casting it as hex
06:52.36klysanyway, each separate string constant you do << to applies individually until its first null
06:57.44Supaplexibot: lart yesterday
06:57.44iboteats yesterday and falls over dead
06:57.51Supaplexewps
06:57.53Sargunhow do I cast something as a function?
06:58.14Supaplexwith function hook line and sinker?
06:58.38klystypedef; then f = ( func )p;
07:00.25Sargunwhat do I declare f as?
07:00.34Sargunwhat the functions return type is?
07:00.45klystypedef void(vector::* member_func)( void* );
07:01.06klysfunc f; void* p; f = ( func )p;
07:09.21Sargunmplay.cpp:10: error: 'typedef struct std::string foobar' redeclared as different kind of symbol
07:09.22Sargunmplay.cpp:5: error: previous declaration of 'std::string foobar()'
07:10.20klysquote the code lines 10, 5
07:10.46Sargunstring foobar()
07:10.47Sargun{
07:10.47Sargun<PROTECTED>
07:10.47Sargun}  
07:10.47Sargun/typedef string(foobar)(string*);
07:10.48Sarguntypedef string(foobar) ; //( void* );
07:11.14klystypedef string(* foo)( int bar );
07:13.53klysof course, naming a type the same as a function or global instance of anything will give you errors
07:15.05klysI think you can do this though:  class screen { public: ... }; int screen;
07:21.33Sargunah, segfault.
07:25.43Sarguno.O
07:25.51Sargun&foobar returns 1 -- always.
07:29.45klys( *foo )( 3 )
07:29.50klys;
07:56.42SargunIn C++ classes are "created" right?
07:57.38Sargunhow are classes 1 byte large?
08:00.40Sargunmcopy.cpp:12: error: expected primary-expression before 'int'
08:00.40Sargunmcopy.cpp:12: error: expected `)' before 'int'
08:00.40Sargunmcopy.cpp:12: error: expected `)' before ';' token
08:00.45Sarguno.O
08:43.33mheathbah
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09:52.12Lakshmihey sargun
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12:16.24redbeard2http://www.craftzine.com/blog/archive/2007/07/baked_potato_cake.html
12:16.25brac[Craftzine.com blog: Baked Potato Cake]
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13:15.34Lakshmihey sargun
13:16.25*** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69)
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13:36.09sjansen~rlart
13:36.10ibotdrops a truckload of VAXen on emcnabb
13:36.15sjansen~botsnack
13:36.15ibotthanks, sjansen
13:53.14mheathMorning, all
13:54.03mheathI'm looking at xmms this morning, wondering why the developer seems so against GTK2
13:54.16mheathTheres xmms2, which uses GTK2, but it isn't related to the first developer
13:59.01sjansenPerhaps because GTK2 had less than impressive performance when it was first releases, oh.... forever ago.
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14:03.32mheathConsidering they wrote such a complex program not that long ago, you'd think they'd be able to improve it
14:03.43mheathGTK2 and some new stuff would completely revitalize that project.
14:09.59sjansenMy bet is that the XMMS developer wants any excuse to not rewrite the theme support. Probably took a lot of work, and since he used so few stock interface items he doesn't get an easy upgrade path to GTK2.
14:10.53mheathsjansen: yeah, but he sits ands makes comments about distros abandoning XMMS on his page while the project dies.
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14:33.02mheathOK, off to this silly weber state orientation
14:33.08Teneseeya
14:33.09mheath~lart the joke of a school they call Weber States
14:33.09ibothereby declares the joke of a school they call Weber States a troll
14:35.08mheathMore nervous about seeing old faces from highschool.
14:35.25mheathI got moved up a grade, so the people starting college this year will be the class I was supposed to graduate with
14:35.46mheathanywya
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14:49.21^Migs^do most colleges make the orientation a mandatory thing?
14:50.34elgdo most colleges make dormitory living mandatory?
14:51.20^Migs^Weber State is, like, the ultimate party school
14:51.35^Migs^I barely even graduated from there I was partying so much
14:51.36Teneorly?
14:51.49^Migs^No
14:52.29Tenehttp://i0005.photobucket.com/albums/0005/icanhascheezburger/2007/7/4/19/128280764380156250disizcumfypil.jpg
14:53.16^Migs^hehehe
14:58.16^Migs^http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/HowTo:Feng_Shui_Your_Computer
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15:32.08levi_homeMorning, folks.
15:33.16sinuheGood morning.
15:36.00goozbach~lart sinuhe
15:36.00ibotblames sinuhe for all the evil in the world
15:36.15goozbachI knew there was something about that guy...
15:36.22sinuheYou would.
15:36.45sinuheMy wife keeps saying that, too.  Hmmm...
15:37.23sinuheThere are greater culprits: Unisys, Sun, Adaptec...
15:37.31goozbachand canada
15:37.47goozbach~blame sinuhe
15:37.48ibotACTION blames sinuhe (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
15:37.54sinuhe--Yes, of course Canada.  How dare I forget--and Microsoft.
15:37.59goozbachsee, even ibot agrees
15:38.17sinuhe~blame ibot
15:38.17ibotACTION blames ibot (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
15:38.48goozbach~lart sinuhe
15:38.48ibotstrangles sinuhe with a 9-pole serial cable
15:38.57goozbach~whaleslap sinuhe
15:38.58ibotACTION beats sinuhe upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh
15:39.12goozbach~whaleshoot sinuhe
15:39.13sinuheThere are worse ways to die.  OK, a killer whale might be one of them.
15:39.28goozbachwhat, no whaleshoot?
15:39.34goozbachok try this!
15:39.41goozbach~whalenuke sinuhe
15:39.42ibotACTION dons his radiation cloak and tinted glasses while a highly intelligent whale named Ray precipitates critical mass for uncontrolled nuclear fission around sinuhe with his mind powers
15:40.03sinuheSounds kinky.
15:40.36Jayce^~bsd sinuhe
15:40.49Jayce^ahh, what happened to that one ibot?
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15:42.07goozbach~bsd $sinhue is <action> dons horns and a tail, grabs her trident, and pokes $sinhue right in the bottom.
15:42.08ibotokay, goozbach
15:42.15goozbach~bsd sinhue
15:42.15ibotACTION dons horns and a tail, grabs her trident, and pokes sinhue right in the bottom.
15:42.18elg-lart stupid ISPs
15:42.40goozbachtwenty minutes before class starts!!!
15:42.45goozbachI need caffiene
15:43.04elgmy parents ISP doesn't allow outbound SMTP (minor annoyance) and returns its own search squat whenever you get a 404
15:43.49Jayce^elg, earthlink?
15:43.54Jayce^I know they did that
15:44.00sinuheWho's sinhue?
15:44.54Jayce^goozbach needs to learn the <TAB> key
15:45.01sinuheHeh
15:46.01elgbresnan cable, probably resells comcast or something
15:48.00sinuheI've not been impressed with my friend's comcast.  I've set up a BSD box for him for NAT for his many computers (he collects them like a pack rat).  Technically, from what I understand, NATing is against their policy.
15:48.21sinuheAnother evil to add to Canada.
15:49.31*** join/#utah MSC386 (n=chatzill@c-67-186-245-203.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
15:49.38sinuheSpeak of the devil.
15:49.54MSC386Okay, Dave, I'm here.
15:50.08sinuheHence my devil comment.  :-)
15:50.46MSC386Yes, indeed.  Quite alot of people here...
15:50.46sinuheYes, there are.
15:50.47Jayce^nah, we're all bots..
15:51.16goozbachsinuhe: sinhue is your evil twin
15:51.33sinuheOh, I see.  Jayce suggests that it is the evil TAB key...
15:51.42goozbachor perhaps the good twin, since YOU are the one with the goatee
15:51.45MSC386Does that mean I'm going to assimilated?
15:51.57sinuheHaven't you been already?
15:52.07MSC386Since you're all 'bots?
15:52.15MSC386Maybe...
15:52.33MSC386"Resistance is futile..."
15:52.44sinuhe~bsd msc386
15:52.44ibotACTION dons horns and a tail, grabs her trident, and pokes msc386 right in the bottom.
15:53.53MSC386Ouch!
15:53.58MSC386That hurt...
15:54.33MSC386ibot is being evil...
15:55.04MSC386She's into pain and suffering...
15:55.21MSC386But then again, poking me is a waste of good suffering...
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15:55.29MSC386;-)
15:57.44sinuheThat's all right.  goozbach setup the bot just before you logged on and did the same to me.
15:57.58sinuheInspired by Jayce.
15:58.49goozbach~goozbach
15:58.50ibotyou are, like, a future que-ball. easier to catch than a retarted sasquatch
15:59.15MSC386'lil ol me?
15:59.31mrpullhttp://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone -- he definitely lets the magic smoke out of that iPhone
15:59.44sinuheWouldn't that be "li'l'"?
16:00.11MSC386Yes, that would be more correct.
16:02.30levi_homemrpull: Wow, it kept working for a surprisingly long time.
16:02.52mrpulli thought the same.  that glass must be tougher than my first gen nano
16:03.55levi_homeI saw a guy using an iPhone on my flight yesterday.  It looked much smaller and way thinner than I was expecting.
16:04.30mrpullnot having 3g is a major deal killer for me
16:04.41mrpullbut that is a sexy little device.
16:05.35sinuheIPhone is plagued by evil DRM.
16:06.07mrpulli was amazed to hear that the OS alone on that device is 700MB
16:06.56mrpulland it still cant copy and paste?
16:07.48MSC386Generally I stay from such Gadgets.
16:08.14MSC386"Leading Edge" is usually "Bleeding Edge" to me.
16:11.13levi_homeGenerally I stay away from such gadgets, but the reason is simply that they are expensive.
16:11.49MSC386That they are.  And what do they give you, other than another distraction.  Truly?
16:12.17levi_homeThat's a silly question.  They give you gadget coolness.  I'd be all over the iPhone if it was cheap or I was rich. :)
16:12.28sinuheA government tracking device.  It's a conspiracy.  :-)
16:12.48sinuheDRM: defective by design.
16:13.19levi_homeI don't try to pretend that I've got some moral high ground over people who buy them, because I would too in different financial circumstances.
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16:14.58mrpullsinuhe:  nothing is stopping you from putting drm free media on there
16:15.08rsimpkinsDoes anyone have a 4 or more port KVM switch I can buy?
16:15.17sinuheTrue.
16:15.33levirsimpkins: I have one at work, but I think they would frown upon me selling it to you.
16:15.34mrpullrsimpkins:  ps2/vga only?
16:15.38mrpullor do you need usb+sound?
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16:15.49rsimpkinsNo, don't need USB and sound.
16:16.11mrpulli think i have one in my junk box downstairs
16:16.15mrpulli'll check this evening
16:16.19mrpulli'll donate it to the cause
16:16.22rsimpkinsmrpull: How many ports? Any ideas?
16:16.33mrpullIIRC, it is a 4 port belkin
16:16.40rsimpkinsKewl, I'm down for that.
16:16.41mrpullit is old
16:16.44mrpullnot rack mount
16:16.51mrpullbut good enough to toss under a desk
16:16.56rsimpkinsWell, it's jsut going on my shelf of growing servers.
16:16.59levirsimpkins is a cause now?  How does one get promoted to such an exalted state?
16:17.11rsimpkinslevi: By being hopless.
16:17.17rsimpkinsOr hapless
16:17.23leviHmm.
16:17.24mrpulllevi:  what do you need from the junk box?  you could have a cause too.
16:17.25mrpullmaybe
16:17.33levimrpull: I'm not sure yet, but I'll let you know. :)
16:17.36mrpulli think I have a 20GB HDD or something
16:19.02mrpulli'm almost certain i have 4 or 5 sets of cables too
16:19.22mrpullit has been sitting unused for 3+ years so i'd be happy to get it out of my house
16:19.48rsimpkinsmrpull: I'd really appreciate it.
16:20.03MSC386I don't need Gadget Coolness.  I just like stuff that works, and that can't be used to track me.
16:20.36MSC386And yes, I have a four port KVM switch.  Belkin...  But I'm not selling it.
16:21.00mrpullMSC386:  just about any modern cell phone can track you
16:21.13MSC386No kidding.
16:21.31MSC386That's way I don't want a cell phone either..
16:22.11mrpullMSC386:  are you a "completely off the grid (except for IRC)" person?
16:22.17leviPeople who are paranoid about getting tracked make me chuckle.
16:22.28mrpullwho cares where you are at.
16:22.34mrpulli'm at work 8-10 hours a day
16:22.41mrpullat home the balance
16:22.43mrpullbig deal
16:23.12sinuheI finally broke down and bought a cell phone.  I've kept off the grid, but more because I find mobile phones annoying.
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16:23.27leviYou can get tracked via your home phone, too.  It's pretty obvious where it's at, and when using it, you're there too.
16:23.48MSC386_There is that.
16:24.00rsimpkinsI wonder - how did the human race put a man on the moon, and invent powerful computers, all without everyone having a cell phone?
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16:24.22mrpulli don't mind being tracked if the info is used to my benefit
16:24.24MSC386_Easy things were a bit more sane then.
16:24.40mrpulli welcome TiVo tracking my tv habits and selling them
16:24.45rsimpkinsRemember that sprint commercial where the guy uses his ptt feature to find out all this information in seconds? He leans back on his desk just as the boss walks by. He gets fired.
16:24.48rsimpkinsSO TRUE
16:25.03MSC386_I don't like being tracked at all, especially with a device that can be used in passive surveillance mode.
16:25.23leviMSC386: You can always take the battery out when you're not using it.
16:25.32MSC386_Call me old-fashioned --  I like my privacy.
16:25.34mrpullmaybe someone will figure out that I like game shows and don't like feminine hygiene commercials
16:25.35MSC386_So they say.
16:25.50leviMSC386: You think it can track you passively without a battery?
16:25.51rsimpkinsMSC386_: Okay, if you don't know how it works please put on a tin foil hat.
16:26.04levi...
16:26.04MSC386_With a small capacitor, the thing could still be powered for a short period of time.
16:26.11leviLike, half a second maybe.
16:26.41rsimpkinsThe location tracking is HORRIBLE>
16:26.45MSC386_Maybe.
16:26.45rsimpkinsI happen to know. :)
16:26.45MSC386_But I still don't like it.
16:27.51MSC386_BRB.
16:27.51rsimpkinsMSC386_: See the black van outside your house? We are watching.
16:27.51mrpullnetsplits are carried out by the tracking overlords
16:27.52MSC386_You mean the black van I'm about to blow away with my handy RPG?
16:28.26rsimpkinsMSC386_: Ahh! A terrorist! Swarm! Swarm!
16:28.27sinuheI saw that one coming.
16:28.27levirsimpkins: I think it's time to call Homeland Security on MSC386.  I'm sure we can find out his location via the Comcast ip address used to connect to IRC. ;P
16:28.40rsimpkinslevi: Ha! I'll call the NSA - we can track him using the chip we implanted in his head!
16:29.14levirsimpkins: Is that the old-style chip or the fancy new GPS one?
16:29.58rsimpkinslevi: GPS? That's so 1970. The NSA is using geo-spatial quantam recepters hidden in every fire-hydrant now.
16:30.11leviGeez, I've been out of the loop.
16:30.26findlaylevi: yeah, and now they have dogs that can sniff out pirate DVD's
16:30.44findlayno doubt inspired by Farenheit 451
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16:36.32sjansenhttp://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~dants/papers/Cheat07Security.pdf <-- The definition of cool.
16:36.47*** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@128.187.177.238)
16:38.09^Migs^http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/2151/1162325736598iy3.gif
16:39.00findlayhttp://wikipedia.org/
16:44.06levisjansen: Clever. :)
16:44.23MSC386_Sorry about that...
16:45.02sjansen~punish MSC386_
16:45.03ibotACTION forces MSC386_ to install and use Windows
16:45.14MSC386_Funny...
16:46.11MSC386_I got the strangest call, some company wanting to talk to me about my credit card, but I don't have one, and the name on the Caller ID is Rene Rivero...
16:46.43leviPhone Phishing?
16:46.59MSC386_Sounds like an ID theft scam...  When I tried to call the number back to inform her that I was on the National "Do Not Call List" the number was disconnected.
16:47.08MSC386_Phishing? yes.
16:47.25sinuheI've been getting those.  Ask what company they are and how they got past the do not call list, and they suddenly act like they don't entirely understand you.  Ask for their manager and they'll hang up.
16:47.25leviProbably a spoofed caller ID.
16:47.27MSC386_But I've only heard of it happening to other people.  Not to me.
16:47.40MSC386_That's what I was thinking.
16:47.46sjansenHuh. I haven't heard of phishing happening to myself either.
16:48.03MSC386_Yeah....
16:48.06MSC386_Hold on...
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16:50.01sjansen~hold MSC386_
16:50.18sjansenibot: Fine, be that way.
16:50.26sjansen~hug MSC386_
16:50.27ibotACTION gets a running start and tackle-hugs MSC386_
16:50.40MSC386_Thanks...
16:51.00sjansenMSC386_: n/p
16:51.24sinuheBunch of cheeky buggers.
16:51.31sjansen~bug sinuhe
16:51.49sinuhelol  ibot is loosing its mind.
16:51.51MSC386_Hold on guys...  I'll be right back...
16:51.55sinuhes/oo/o/
16:52.13sinuheAt least some things are working.
16:52.33sjansensinuhe: Nah, ibot just hasn't been trained to "hold" yet.
16:52.36findlay~random
16:52.41sjansen~rlart
16:52.42ibotexplains, ever so gently, that if ^Migs^ doesn't give the channel more information, they can't help
16:53.00sjansen~praise sinuhe
16:53.00ibotAll hail sinuhe!
16:53.04sjansen~fishslap Jayce^
16:53.05ibotACTION slaps Jayce^ up side the head with a wet fish.
16:53.07^Migs^huhZ?
16:53.13findlay~shakespeare ^Migs^
16:53.14ibotACTION stands up and quotes Shakespeare: ^Migs^ - Thou impertinent elf-skinned scullian!
16:53.16sjansen~silence ^Migs^
16:53.17ibotACTION shoves an apple in ^Migs^'s mouth, shoves a spit through ... well, uhm, anyway ... then builds a nice fire and starts roasting
16:53.17^Migs^that's right.  Huh-to-tha-'Z'!
16:53.24sjansensinuhe: See?
16:53.34sinuheSweet
16:53.53sinuheI like the fish slap.  That's a classic.
16:54.05findlay~herring sinuhe
16:54.06ibotACTION whacks sinuhe on the side of the head with a large red herring named alfred
16:54.31findlay~literal tux
16:54.31ibot"tux" is "way better than pingizauru will ever be"
16:54.32sinuheRed herring: is that like Canada with a seafood twist?
16:54.41sjansen~hold MSC386_
16:54.42ibotACTION Embraces MSC386_ in a giant bear hug. Then gets bored and uses MSC386_ as a chew toy.
16:55.13sjansen~bzfrag redbeard2
16:55.14ibotACTION destroys redbeard2 with a guided missile
16:55.21calvarez~ibot
16:55.22ibotextra, extra, read all about it, ibot is a blootbot written in perl run by TimRiker on his server. logs on http://ibot.rikers.org/<chan>/ , ibot, jbot, apt are all the same process. It uses sqlite, but mysql or other SQL storage is also supported.
16:55.23sjansen~bzfrag redbeard2
16:55.23ibotACTION squishes redbeard2 with a steamroller
16:55.24findlay~shoot sjansen
16:55.24ibotACTION shoots sjansen in the ear with a frozen turkey cannon!
16:55.38sinuhebz...?
16:55.44sjansen~bzflag
16:55.45ibotrumour has it, bzflag is a 3D internet multiplayer multiplatform (win32, linux, mac, etc) opensource opengl Battlezone capture the flag game of the same name that you must try at http://BZFlag.org/ or a continual development project with periodic gaming interuptions. See also TimRiker
16:55.48brac[BZFlag - home]
16:55.51sinuheAh
16:56.05calvareztry nexuiz
16:56.09findlay~weather kpvu
16:56.12sjansen~travolta emcnabb
16:56.13ibotACTION replaces emcnabb with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power
16:56.17calvarezmore fun than bzflag
16:56.52findlay~slashdot
16:56.56sjansencalvarez: Darest thou to disparage the creations of the TimRiker?
16:57.04sjansen~whaleslap calvarez
16:57.05ibotACTION beats calvarez upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh
16:57.17calvarezI'm not disparaging anything, but nexuiz is more fun than BZflag
16:57.32calvarezgood ol' fashion fragging
16:57.35findlaycheckers is more fun than tic tac toe
16:57.47calvarezI agree
16:58.07sinuhe~george
16:58.08ibot[george] gwright@kde.org and a KDE devel
16:58.18sjansen~george sinuhe
16:58.27sinuheHmmm...we need a bugs bunny George.
16:58.37calvarez~nexuiz
16:58.55calvarezhttp://www.nexuiz.org
16:58.55brac[nexuiz.org]
16:59.00calvarezhttp://www.nexuiz.com
16:59.13sjansen~george sinuhe
16:59.14ibotACTION playfully wraps sinuhe in cellophane Curious George style
16:59.19Tene~sjansen sinuhe
16:59.20ibotACTION tells sinuhe good things about sjansen
16:59.51sinuheI was thinking of the Martian that decides to adopt George.  It would be a good adaption of ~hold
17:00.14redbeard2~migs sinuhe
17:00.15ibotACTION forces sinuhe to learn perl from ^Migs^
17:00.49sjansen~sjansen
17:00.50ibotsjansen is one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is
17:01.02redbeard2~perl sjansen
17:01.03ibotACTION forces ^Migs^ to use perl
17:01.09sjansenheh
17:01.13redbeard2always a favorite
17:01.51Teneibot: ibot redbeard2
17:01.52ibotACTION does... erm... I dunno... some bot stuff or something to redbeard2.
17:02.18sinuheruby: perl without the obfuscation.  FLAME WAR: On
17:03.24redbeard2~ruby sinuhe
17:03.24ibotACTION converts sinuhe to a symbol, puts the symbol in a hash, and puts the hash in a yaml file
17:03.33Jayce^or cpan, or performance, or... :)
17:03.47leviruby: smalltalk with nasty perl syntax
17:03.58sinuheheh
17:04.01calvarezruby: < python
17:04.06leviruby: smalltalk without the speed
17:04.14sinuheDare someone throw Lisp into the fray?
17:04.24findlayLISP!!1
17:04.35Jayce^sinuhe, meet levi..
17:04.37leviruby:  lisp wannabe?
17:05.04redbeard2elg: are you going to defend your language?
17:05.06leviI am not actually a Ruby hater.  I kind of like it, though that's purely an outside opinion because I've never used it.
17:05.07calvarezpython, C/C++. That's all a real computer scientist needs
17:05.10sinuhelevi: Lisp fan?
17:05.16levisinuhe: Yes.
17:05.22sinuheGood for you.
17:05.31rsimpkinsRuby was created by a Mormon - it's our only claim to technical fame. :)
17:05.38calvarezhaaahaha
17:05.42MSC386_Whoa....
17:05.43calvarezawesome
17:05.45findlaylevi also likes other occult languages like haskell
17:05.47calvarezwell, what about the TV?
17:05.52calvarezFarnsworth
17:06.03MSC386_I found out something about the Phone scam...
17:06.04leviI wrote my blog engine in Common Lisp and I do a fair bit of Scheme programming, too.
17:06.05sinuheI've been starting to look at ruby, because Scheme isn't on the average business radar screen.  Of course, now that doesn't matter.
17:06.52MSC386_According to the FBI local field office, they're aware of this scam, but I was the first to report in on this particular incarnation of it.
17:06.59sinuhePerl has never been a favourite (I feel a fragging coming on), and python never caught my interest.
17:07.03sjansencalvarez: < ruby
17:07.08leviI wrote a little program at work in Chicken Scheme, since it compiles to C.
17:07.12rsimpkinsIBM Sucks! You can't download the db2 client without a java enabled browser!!!!
17:07.16calvarezas I said, python, C/C++. That's all a real computer scientist needs
17:07.24calvarezthe rest is mostly sugar
17:07.27dataw0lfsinuhe: where you from?  Britian?
17:07.44findlaydataw0lf: your worst nightmare!!
17:07.50levicalvarez: That's all a real graphics programmer/researcher needs, maybe.  Computer Science is a bit broader than that.
17:07.52sinuheNo.
17:07.54sjansenrsimpkins: I thought we could claim the boob tube too.
17:07.57MSC386_Apparently, the private name came up on my caller ID because they're using Calling Cards.
17:07.58Jayce^sinuhe, favourite...  you and canada man..
17:07.59dataw0lfsinuhe: so, you're American?
17:08.00calvarezhahaha, one bit
17:08.10rsimpkinssjansen: I think so, but as far as CS fame - I think Ruby takes the top.
17:08.15Jayce^dataw0lf, he just listens to Rush...
17:08.16sinuheYes, I was born and raised in Utah.  I'm an OED nut.
17:08.26dataw0lfDon't ever say favourite again
17:08.27dataw0lfYou commie
17:08.29dataw0lf<3
17:08.29sinuheAh...Rush...
17:08.34MSC386_When someone tries to call back, they disconnect it...
17:08.37calvarezRush Limbaugh?
17:08.37sinuhe...their my favourite...
17:08.40sjansenrsimpkins: So we get no credit for the many accomplishments of the U?
17:08.44calvarezor the band Rush?
17:08.48sinuheThe band.
17:08.51dataw0lfcalvarez: I'm pretty sure they mean the band..
17:08.57Jayce^There's a band called Rush?  who knew?
17:09.01dataw0lfI can't imagine Rush Limbaugh spelling favorite, or favourite
17:09.04calvarezhaha, I should have put a "/sarcasm"
17:09.10MSC386_Apparently they've been canvassing the whole area trying to get ID's/
17:09.12rsimpkinssjansen: They have done many things - but I can't recall anything famous.
17:09.14dataw0lfhe'd probably spell it faaaaverite
17:09.19sinuhe~fishslap Jayce
17:09.20ibotACTION slaps Jayce up side the head with a wet fish.
17:09.26sjansenI guess you're probably right. All the righteous people go to BYU. Anyone would attends the U is probably a lapsed Mormon at best. ;-)
17:09.33levirsimpkins: Well, they graduated a bunch of people who did famous things.
17:09.34calvarezsjansen, the U was great...until Sutherland retired.
17:09.39rsimpkinssjansen: Arguably Ruby has some amount of fame.
17:09.48MSC386_Anyway, the info been passed on to the Secret Service.  They're part of the ID Theft Task Force.
17:09.55Jayce^rsimpkins, so does the star wars kid..
17:10.01MSC386_That was just all too weird...
17:10.02calvarezhaaaha
17:10.03Jayce^fame is not always good
17:10.06findlayhe
17:10.09dataw0lfJayce^: hahahahaha
17:10.13rsimpkinsJayce^: No doubt.
17:10.22calvarezam I the only one that thought ot the old Fame TV show?
17:10.24MSC386_I love Star Wars....
17:10.27leviJayce^: You're just jealous because perl's not getting all the hot new books that Ruby is. ;)
17:10.30dataw0lfthe only reason people have even heard of Ruby is because of Rails
17:10.36sinuhemsc386: where did that come from?
17:10.51sjansencolour colour colour
17:10.54dataw0lfso now you have a bunch of idiot PHP programmers attempting to clone Rails with PHP's inelegant syntax and questionable grammatical structure
17:10.55MSC386_Somebody mentioned Star Wars....
17:11.05dataw0lfit's sort of amusing
17:11.20dataw0lfat least it was for the first year or so
17:11.30sinuheAh, I wasn't paying attention, clearly.
17:11.32sjansenI think I'll pop by the pub to fill my boot with a bit of... something British.
17:11.33calvarezsjansen: loo
17:11.40sinuheGuiness!
17:11.43MSC386_Personally, I like Classic C, Forth, LISP, MACSYMA, and PERL and others....
17:11.46dataw0lfGuinness*
17:11.50dataw0lfdon't misspell my favorite beer
17:11.52dataw0lfkthnx
17:11.53sinuhes/ne/nne/
17:11.54calvarezCobol FTW!
17:12.01sinuheI know.  I saw it the moment I hit enter.
17:12.07calvarezVisual Cobol .NET
17:12.08MSC386_COBOL?  But why?
17:12.09rsimpkinsI'm an SA and use Perl *A LOT*. But I also use bash a lot, so don't mind me.
17:12.10leviMSC386_:  Which version of C is 'classic'?
17:12.11sinuhe~fishslap sinuhe
17:12.12ibotACTION slaps sinuhe up side the head with a wet fish.
17:12.26dataw0lfrsimpkins: yea, I used to use Perl a lot too.  
17:12.31dataw0lfBACK IN 95
17:12.32dataw0lfhahaha
17:12.33dataw0lfha
17:12.35dataw0lf...
17:12.35calvarezlol
17:12.38calvarezpwn
17:12.40MSC386_The original.  Kernighan and Richie "C".  Pre- C++.
17:12.55dataw0lfMSC386_: um, you know there's different standardizations
17:12.56MSC386_Circa 1978-88.
17:13.03MSC386_No Shit.
17:13.14dataw0lfwatch the language, and it's not referred to as "K&R" C
17:13.22sinuhemsc386 is a K&R C junkie.  I'm not sure he's cared for C88/99.
17:13.24dataw0lfsince most basis of "K&R" C is from their book
17:13.27MSC386_I've been working on Computers for alot longer than you think.
17:13.27dataw0lfwhich has been updated
17:13.42calvarezwell, MSC386_ , if you're using a 386
17:13.47MSC386_Gee, I didn't know that....
17:13.51dataw0lfMSC386_: ok, it's a lot
17:13.52calvarezthat kindof gives it away
17:13.59dataw0lfapparently you haven't been writing for longer than I think
17:14.04dataw0lfwhich is around 1 to 2 years
17:14.08sjansenPython: Not Perl with less power... but it's readable!
17:14.13leviI still want to learn FORTH.
17:14.18MSC386_It's been my moniker since I joined AOL back in 1992 which was on a 386 at the time.
17:14.20calvarezMSC386_, C has been updated. Now it is "Visual C .NET"
17:14.27MSC386_FORTH is cool.
17:14.30MSC386_I know that too.
17:14.31sinuhelol
17:14.33sjansen~language MSC386_
17:14.34ibotACTION grabs MSC386_ by the ear and washes MSC386_'s mouth out with soap
17:14.44levicalvarez: No, it's Visual C++ .NET.
17:14.50calvarezthe truth is, the only real language is LOLCATS
17:14.57dataw0lfsjansen: less power if you like to be able to write simple logic in infinite amount of ways, sure
17:14.57calvarezonly thing you need
17:15.04MSC386_Sinuhe, tell 'em...
17:15.20dataw0lfyou can't really love a language that can be replicated by banging your head against a keyboard
17:15.21calvarezI mean, LOLCODE
17:15.24dataw0lfwhich is how I debug Perl
17:15.25MSC386_Forth was one of the first AI languages.
17:15.34calvarezhttp://lolcode.com/
17:15.40calvarezthe rest is for newbies
17:15.45calvarezreal CS people use LOLCODE
17:15.50dataw0lfyea, I wrote the terminator's visual synaptic responses in Forth
17:15.59calvarezCAN HAS STDIO?
17:16.06MSC386_Then there's Prolog, and others.
17:16.11findlayI refuse to believe that CS is a proper science
17:16.23MSC386_LISP I think was listed among them.
17:16.25findlayat least not in the way calvarez refers to it
17:16.29sjansenC, Bash, Perl, Ruby, Python, Java (when payed _well_), eventually Haskell
17:16.38dataw0lfsjansen: Haskell++
17:16.43MSC386_Java is cool too.
17:16.50leviI don't recall Forth being particularly associated with AI.
17:16.57sinuhesinuhe: what am I telling them?
17:17.00dataw0lfit gave Python list comprehensions, what more do you need to know
17:17.01sinuheDoh
17:17.05sjansenI bag on Python, but just because so many Python programmers are arrogant and annoying.
17:17.07sinuhes/sinuhe/msc386/
17:17.08MSC386_It is, in a rudimentary way.
17:18.03sjansenAt least Perl programmers admit Perl is ugly. And Ruby programmers admit Ruby is slow.
17:18.03leviChuck Moore doesn't seem like an AI kind of guy.
17:18.03dataw0lfsjansen: Oh, right.  And Perl programmers are quiet system administrators who mind their business.
17:18.03MSC386_I like python too, but still have alot to learn about it.
17:18.03dataw0lfit's A LOT
17:18.03sinuheLet's try that again.  msc386: what am I telling them?
17:18.03dataw0lfFOR THE LOVE OF GOD
17:18.03sjansenBut Python programmers won't admit that for certain things Ruby and Perl are easier to use.
17:18.04dataw0lfsjansen: I will
17:18.04dataw0lfwell
17:18.04findlayheh
17:18.05dataw0lfI won't admit about Ruby
17:18.08dataw0lfbut I will about Perl
17:18.22MSC386_Never mind.  It's not their fault they were babies when I was teaching CS at MIT.
17:18.30dataw0lflike, say, if I want an alternative to encrypting my code, I use Perl, it's much easier for that
17:18.31TenePerl 6!
17:18.33Jayce^mmm... mario kart for the wii!!!
17:18.36dataw0lfnoone can read it!
17:18.37findlayPERL7!
17:18.46leviLisp and Prolog were definitely AI languages, though.
17:18.54dataw0lfI thought Perl was dead
17:18.56findlayperl n
17:19.03dataw0lfexcept for on a few HP-UX machines
17:19.07Teneruby: a mediocre substitute for Perl 6.
17:19.08MSC386_I'm still trying to master Perl MOD 5...
17:19.21leviRuby: A sane subset of Perl 6
17:19.22sjansenPerl programmers... have to be given more leeway. I'm pretty sure repeated exposure to exclusively Perl code causes brain damage.
17:19.29MSC386_Haskell?  I've heard of it, but never used it.
17:19.44calvarezexample of Perl code:  V $#%R#$V#$5v344v3%V#5v#$v3v 35 v3 v5#5v3:%:#V5v3.5.3:
17:19.48leviHaskell is the new playground language for CS research
17:19.58dataw0lfcalvarez: nice, a wiki in one line, that's what I'm talking about
17:20.02calvarezheard nice things of haskell
17:20.08dataw0lflevi: I thought it was still primarily a mathematical domain language
17:20.09calvarezdataw0lf, haha
17:20.13sjansendataw0lf: I write "a lot" alot. Does that bug you alot?
17:20.20sjansenI know it used to bug tensai alot.
17:20.22levicalvarez: I don't imagine it's something you'd want to use for high-performance graphics, though.
17:20.23dataw0lfsjansen; I shall kill you
17:20.29sjansenBut I didn't put alot of effort into changing.
17:20.30levidataw0lf: What, Haskell?
17:20.33calvarezlevi, you'd be surprised
17:20.35dataw0lflevi: yea
17:20.38Tenecalvarez: example of chinese: hong wing wong ching chong bing bong
17:20.42MSC386_It seems like there is a plethora of programming languages, but from what I can tell the ''C" derived block structured languages seem to have the most traction.
17:20.59sinuheCurly braces everywhere!
17:21.11calvarezI read an article from Tim Sweeney (the mind behind Unreal Tournment) explaining how multithreading as functional programming with things such as haskell is the future in game programming
17:21.21levicalvarez: Well, considering how you blasted Lisp as a potential graphics language, I wouldn't think you'd consider Haskell either.
17:21.23MSC386_Java, Perl, C, C++, JavaScript, J++ and others to be sure.
17:21.43calvarezlevi, the lisp ray tracer was just an ego masturbation
17:21.50dataw0lfLisp should be the de facto embedded scripting language for any application ever
17:21.55MSC386_Tell me more about Haskelll...  what is it based on?
17:22.03findlay~language calvarez
17:22.03ibotACTION grabs calvarez by the ear and washes calvarez's mouth out with soap
17:22.07sjansen~haskell
17:22.08ibotsomebody said haskell was a non-strict purely functional programming language, named after the logician Haskell B. Curry. A free implementation is in the hugs package.  The language specification is in the haskell-doc package. See http://haskell.org for more info. or GHC is a free Haskell compiler. Ask me about it.  Even more perlish than perl!, or very evil
17:22.11levicalvarez: I read those slides, too, and I see where you're coming from, but I think he was referring only to parts of Haskell, not the whole language.
17:22.26calvarezwell, mostly functional languages
17:22.49sjansenMSC386_: I don't know *ML but they get mentioned in the same breath as Haskell alot.
17:22.54thaddeusqsjansen: I always right "a lot" since alot isn't in the merriam webster dictionary
17:22.54calvarezfunctional languages have the potential to make multithreaded (thinking multicore) programming easier
17:23.06MSC386_Thanks S. Jansen.  It seems like every where I turn there is a new programming language.
17:23.07sjansenthaddeusq++
17:23.33dataw0lfthaddeusq: at least you spell "right" correctly
17:23.35levicalvarez: Yes, they do, but it's very difficult to predict the runtime profile of a Haskell program right now due to its lazy evaluation model.
17:23.40MSC386_I remember the old days when USCD Pascal and Small Talk were all the rage.
17:23.41dataw0lf>_>
17:23.42dataw0lf<_<
17:23.56sjansenAlthough I should ding your for MW. English as she is spoken can only be defined by OED as he is written.
17:24.12MSC386_Nicely put.
17:24.16calvarezA-R-G-H
17:24.22dataw0lfMerriam Webster just added "ginormous" and "crunk" into their dictionary
17:24.23calvarez\stupid avisynth
17:24.23Tene~ghc
17:24.24ibothmm... ghc is at http://www-i2.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/Software/Haskell/ or the Glasgow Haskell Compiler. See also haskell. or http://www-i2.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/Software/Haskell/sources.list-unstable.txt or the least sucky software to come from Microsoft, or in potato now
17:24.28brac[Haskell-related Binaries [I2]]
17:24.29calvarezgraaa
17:24.38*** part/#utah calvarez (n=Hhhhh@lawn-128-61-126-8.lawn.gatech.edu)
17:24.40MSC386_I heard that on Fox News today...  Go figure...
17:24.51tensaiy bothar woryng about speling and grammer?
17:24.54*** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@65.89.234.66)
17:25.03*** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog)
17:25.11MSC386_I'll be right back...  Gotta check on laundry....
17:25.15sinuheWebster was yesterday's Microsoft for Americans.  Sigh.  All hail Dr J
17:25.28leviI find it hilarious that calvarez is anti-Lisp and pro-Haskell.
17:25.52*** join/#utah {phoenyx} (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13)
17:25.57dataw0lfwhat are the arguments against Lisp?
17:26.01dataw0lf(((((((((())))))))))) ?
17:26.12sinuheWell put.
17:26.12leviThat, and that it's too slow for his graphics apps.
17:26.20dataw0lfoh yes
17:26.31dataw0lfsince it's not ideal for one application, IT MUST SUCK
17:26.43leviI guess so.
17:26.55leviBut Haskell is just fine, because Tim Sweeny likes some parts of it.
17:27.01sjansenTo paraphrase Linus Torvalds (I think): Lisp looks like toenail clippings.
17:27.10dataw0lfnice
17:27.16sjansenAlthough I personally like Lisp.
17:27.24dataw0lfme too, but that's a good quote
17:27.46{phoenyx}dataw0lf: you're parens are mismatched ;)
17:27.53{phoenyx}s/you're/your
17:28.21dataw0lfI don't think I was writing usable code
17:28.41sinuhephoenyx: your apostrophe is mismatched.  :-)
17:29.07{phoenyx}'your' parens
17:29.10{phoenyx}is that better?
17:29.18leviThe syntax of Lisp is a means to an end; it makes it very easy to do metaprogramming.   People are now interested in doing metaprogramming again, and are going to great lengths to come up with a system that's as easy to use for metaprogramming as Lisp, but without the s-expression syntax.  Success has been limited so far, but they may actually succeed. :)
17:29.27sinuhes/you're/your/ would have done the trick...hehehe
17:29.37findlaydataw0lf: you sure?  I thought that that would print out Shakespeare in the metre of Whitman
17:29.59dataw0lflevi: Python ain't too bad for metaprogramming
17:30.17findlaylevi: I like the nested emacs rectangles
17:30.35dataw0lffindlay: it could.  Here's the Perl code for such a thing: #@@!
17:30.50dataw0lfthat also browses the internet
17:30.58dataw0lfcollects various Shakespeare plays
17:31.07dataw0lfand verbalizes them
17:31.15levidataw0lf: Depends on what kind of metaprogramming you're doing, I suppose.  I've seen examples of pretty cool stuff, but it didn't look particularly easy or natural.
17:32.05leviThe surface syntax of Lisp has a pretty clear correspondence with the internal syntax tree representation, which makes manipulating the syntax tree very easy.
17:32.25dataw0lflevi: yea, Lisp is still top of the heap (guffaw) for metaprogramming
17:32.53findlayI think a succesfull language will implement a syntax bush
17:33.03leviThings like metalua and template haskell are coming close, though.
17:33.07dataw0lfwhy not a syntax shrubbery?
17:33.15findlayor a syntax vine
17:33.20MSC386_I've tried LISP, but the parentheses do get confusing.  I like it, but to be honest I tend to gravitate to block structured languages myself.
17:33.45TeneMSC386_: so write a preprocessor for lisp that lets you use indentation in place of parens.
17:33.53leviMSC386_: Well, modern lisp is block-structured.
17:33.59dataw0lfwell, if you're using vim, you can match those parens pretty easily.  I haven't run into too much confusion after using Lisp for a while
17:34.28*** join/#utah Lakshmi___ (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-127-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
17:34.35levivim can make paren matching easy.  emacs can do a lot to make lisp programming easier, too.
17:35.20MSC386_I'll have to try it.
17:35.48MSC386_MACSYMA was implemented in LISP, which I also like alot too.
17:36.09findlayyou should try emerald
17:36.12MSC386_First time I tries out MACSYMA was 1981, I think.
17:36.24MSC386_Emerald?
17:36.29leviMSC386_: There's still TAGBODY and GO, but they're pretty much only used in macro expansions.
17:36.31findlayit's a hypothetical language that I joke about creating sometimes :-)
17:36.43leviLike Ruby, but green with envy?
17:36.44MSC386_Cool.
17:36.48dataw0lflevi: haha
17:37.22leviMSC386_: Scheme borrowed a lot from Algol, and Common Lisp borrowed a lot from Scheme.
17:37.22MSC386_I've always wanted to write my own language.  Alot of work though.
17:37.45MSC386_I've been studying ALGOL 68 lately....
17:38.26findlaywell, a Green language is better than a Red language
17:38.30MSC386_Never used it before...  I can see where C and Pascal got some of there syntax after looking at it, though.
17:38.32findlay<_<
17:39.10rsimpkinsIs it just me, or do programmers generally think they are at least as competent as the best SAs?
17:39.25TheTiGuR_<snickers>
17:39.38rsimpkinsTheTiGuR_: :) Hey man.
17:39.43Tenersimpkins: That's not what I've seen.
17:39.47*** join/#utah MSC386__ (n=chatzill@c-67-186-245-203.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
17:39.50TheTiGuR_Heya
17:39.52dataw0lfwell, since most SAs are incompetent, I'd say that's a fair guess
17:39.55sjansenPython's a pain for anything other than Mickey Mouse meta-programming.
17:39.58rsimpkinsdataw0lf: hehe
17:40.18Tenedataw0lf: he said "the best SAs"
17:40.19findlayrsimpkins: yeah, I could easily manage 10,000 boxen, just le me write a perl script to do it
17:40.28leviI was a SA too, but I'm happy to not be one anymore.
17:40.28rsimpkinsYou tell a programmer 'upgrade ssh on this server' - and hilarity ensues. :)
17:40.40dataw0lflevi: same
17:40.45dataw0lfexcept for the odd consulting job
17:40.57dataw0lfI'm just fine with code hackery
17:41.01MSC386__Python's alright, but I haven't used it much.
17:41.12sjansenMSC386_: Lisp should be programmed using an IDE designed for it. One of the few redeeming qualities of emacs is lisp.
17:41.21dataw0lf*only
17:41.23MSC386__Yup.
17:45.02*** join/#utah Lakshmi____ (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-161-88.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
17:45.39sjansenrsimpkins: Programmers don't think they as competent as the best SAs. They think they're better.
17:45.50sjansenProgrammers make software. SAs just use it.
17:46.08rsimpkinssjansen: Ahh, right. Thank you for putting me in my place.
17:46.37sjansenOne advantage of working each side of the fense, is I understand both cultures.
17:46.46leviAnyway, I've been using Scheme a lot lately because, like C, it has a very small core language that's relatively easy to master.
17:46.46sinuheSAs are usually SAs because they were programmers once and had to setup their own servers with junk their boss gave them.  I wouldn't dog on SAs too hard.
17:46.49dataw0lfyea, and you misspell as badly as both
17:47.06sjansenheh
17:47.21dataw0lfsinuhe: huge difference between "Perl / bash script hacker" and "programmer"
17:47.37sinuheWe need a separate sed ibot with en-GB-oed.  :-)
17:47.37findlayspleing isnt to important, gramer neither
17:47.44dataw0lfJust because they figured out that their hashbang had the wrong path in it doesn't mean they're a programmer
17:48.37sjansensinuhe is right. Many SAs started out as programmers and could hack it or could hack it but couldn't stomach any more assembly/C/C++/Java so they switched teams.
17:48.37sinuhedataw0lf: I admit I'm an SA not a true, blue hacker.  I'm willing to learn, though.
17:48.38sjansens/could/couldn't/
17:48.41leviProgramming and SA are both about managing complexity.  I'm not sure which has more complexity, but a good SA has to integrate a huge number of software packages into a coherent system while dealing with persistent hardware/software failures in components beyond their immediate control.
17:48.44dataw0lfwell I started out as an SA and became a programmer
17:48.57sinuhes/an/a/
17:49.25dataw0lfhm
17:49.31dataw0lfdid I start programming first?
17:49.41dataw0lfthis is like the chicken-egg problem
17:50.48sinuheA hacker is good at both.  I specialize in the newbie programming language, myself.
17:51.15dataw0lf"myself" is your newbie programming language?
17:51.34sinuhe:-P
17:51.59dataw0lf;-)
17:52.28leviWell, the original MIT Lab hackers wrote all their own operating systems and such, so they were definitely both SAs and hackers.  But definitely a very different kind of SA than our modern ones.
17:52.44findlayyeah, they all had beards
17:52.58leviWhat modern SA would include a command that would intentionally crash the system?
17:53.04mrpulli like that old comp sci geeks wore lab coats
17:53.21mrpulli think that i should force my team to wear lab coats and ties any time they are at work
17:53.32findlayhaha
17:53.38goozbachlab coats and ties!!!
17:53.41goozbachI like it
17:53.50findlayand don't forget the glasses
17:53.51sjansen~destroy mrpull
17:53.52ibotno
17:53.56goozbachI think I'll try and implemnet it at CXRi
17:53.57findlayand the pocket protector!
17:54.02sjansenFine, I'll do it myself.
17:54.05rsimpkinsI belive SAs are really integrators, not just users.
17:54.07mrpullsjansen:  common.  you'd look dashing in a lab coat
17:54.13*** part/#utah {phoenyx} (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13)
17:54.18mrpulls/common/come on/
17:54.54goozbacheither that or kilts and full beards
17:54.57sjansenDrat. He survived.
17:55.09findlayyour IQ increases 25% when you put a lab coat on
18:00.05dataw0lfare you guys trading world of warcraft items again?
18:00.49findlayheh
18:01.43*** join/#utah Lakshmi____ (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-161-88.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
18:08.07findlaygoozbach: I'd go with the kilts as long as I get a claymore
18:09.45findlaymaybe you could even turn a sword into an input device
18:09.57dataw0lfI'd input it into you
18:10.03findlaywii-style
18:10.18findlay~input dataw0lf
18:11.29dataw0lf~punch findlay
18:11.30ibotACTION hits findlay like the hot kiss and the end of a wet fist
18:11.31sjansen~poke findlay
18:11.32ibotACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind findlay, pokes findlay repeatedly, hilarity ensues.
18:12.16goozbachsjansen: what's the tabook.pdf url?
18:12.28goozbachI want to look at the new specs in detail
18:13.10sjansenIt doesn't change.  ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pcinstitute/psref/tabook.pdf
18:13.44*** part/#utah decripto1 (i=decripto@nat/novell/x-9afa9afbc70bd880)
18:14.08sjansenWhy doesn't Thunderbird tell me about new message is folders under my Inbox?
18:14.23*** join/#utah sargun_screen (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]
18:14.23sjansenKinda defeats the whole point of sorting mail.
18:16.20*** join/#utah diesel (n=diesel@c-67-161-215-254.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
18:16.37sinuheI still use BSD Mail (on my laptop the GNU mailutils) with metamail.  Excepting, multipart/alternative encoding.  Anyone know of good multipart/alternative decoder for Mail?
18:16.39*** join/#utah decripto1 (i=decripto@nat/novell/x-62e671075812c7d9)
18:16.40findlaywhy are email clients awful generally?
18:16.53sinuhes/good/a good/
18:16.56dataw0lfcept for mutt
18:17.05findlaydataw0lf: mutt is just less so :)
18:17.13dataw0lffindlay: true enough, I suppose
18:17.13sinuhemutt does the trick, but there's a few things I don't like about mutt.
18:17.28sjansenLike it doesn't lack multiple IMAP folders.
18:17.46sjansenAgain, what's the point of sorting mail if your MUA ignores the other folders?
18:17.54^Migs^At every point in the development cycle, we aim for code that follow published, formal, grammars and standards - specifically those created by the World Wide Web Consortium. We do this to ensure the maximum level of interoperability, and to make sure that what we try to give you, the user, is information that you can easily access.
18:17.59dataw0lfsjansen: fun and games?
18:18.07^Migs^http://www.greytower.net/about/  -   yet when you click on the W3C Validator link, it fails
18:18.08sjansens/lack/support/
18:18.43sjansenSometimes the W3C validator is wrong.
18:19.09sjansenWriting a good validator is a pain. It tends to happen in spurts of volunteer masochism.
18:19.28*** join/#utah diesel_ (n=diesel@c-67-161-215-254.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
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18:19.29*** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristan@oalug/member/tristanbob)
18:19.29*** join/#utah mrpull-x (i=xmjake@xmission.xmission.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]
18:19.29*** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@draco.mcnabbs.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]
18:19.44findlay~validate sjansen
18:19.45*** join/#utah mrpull-x (i=xmjake@xmission.xmission.com)
18:19.46sjansenfindlay: I'm self-validating.
18:19.54findlayha
18:20.34sinuheVolunteer masochism: I recognize that working with the GNU Project.  That's how things get done there, too.
18:21.07findlayis that the attitude you want software built on?
18:22.44dataw0lfI want software built with a ninja attitude
18:22.49dataw0lfwith a side of pirate attitude
18:23.05findlayyeah!
18:23.24leviSoftware with Real Ultimate Power!
18:23.29*** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@draco.mcnabbs.org)
18:23.39findlayemcnabb power!
18:23.54dataw0lflevi: hehe
18:23.59findlay~judo emcnabb
18:24.00ibotACTION manipulates emcnabb with Uchimate. AAAEEEEEEEIIIIIII
18:24.03mrpullhttp://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320136038543&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=320110292554&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
18:24.09mrpulli really should hire a PA
18:24.35sinuheIf you read the W3 mailing list much, they're always complaining about the validator.  They *finally* got SGML syntax requirements in there for the HTML validator (the distinction being with XHTML/XML).  I was very pleased that it exposed the appendix C flaws, but unfortunately if you write an XHTML page ignoring certain part of Appendix C, it will validate as text/html (and would completely hose with an SGML interpreter).
18:26.34MSC386__Okay, I'm back.
18:27.07sinuheYour underscores are multiplying.
18:28.05Tene~nick125 sinuhe
18:28.05ibotACTION puts sinuhe on a VPS with 32MB of ram and makes sinuhe use Gentoo on there.
18:28.19sinuheYikes.
18:31.14goozbachhey sjansen, did you happen to read the tabook.pdf?
18:31.25goozbachthe first page says: "Customers and employees can receive notification of each release via a
18:31.28goozbachdistribution list by sending their e-mail address to rdodson@us.lenovo.com
18:31.31goozbach"
18:31.42MSC386__Yes, the underscores are multiplying.  It's not my fault....
18:32.02findlaygoozbach: heh
18:32.06goozbachI don't want to burst your bubble, but your script might have been in vain
18:32.15findlaynot as cool though
18:32.51goozbachtrue, sjansen is still my hero
18:33.22goozbachcause i didn't know about the updated tabook until he mentioned it
18:33.39goozbachI just wanted to take some of the air out of his sails because he's in Columbus
18:33.47goozbachand I wanted to be in columbus
18:42.32*** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@206.183.14.165)
18:48.01tensaiis anybody here an expert on RFC 2822?
18:48.25TeneThat's the pudding rfc, right?
18:48.48tensaiby my reading, the "&" character is allowed as a local part of an email address (see section 3.4.1 and 3.2.4)
18:49.08tensaiTene: close. it defines SMTP messages
18:50.16tensaia certain vendor of ours says they take "a strict interpretation of the RFC" and don't allow "&"
18:50.31tensaiit seems to me that if you do have a strict view of the RFC, you would have to allow it
18:51.29tensaiit's like saying "I have a strict interpretation of the speed limit, therefore I only go 15mph in 25mph zones"
18:52.01TeneWeird.
18:53.38findlayI'm such a languid genius
18:58.42^Migs^http://www.techcrunch.com/wp-content/compete.png
19:00.32mheathGrr
19:00.41mheathIs there anyway to turn off that stupid auto-reboot crap in Windows?
19:00.59^Migs^yes
19:01.06dataw0lfYA INSTALL HURD ITS SO GEWD
19:01.27mheathWithout turning off autoinstall
19:01.35^Migs^Involves registry editing. Navigate to "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\ Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced", create DWORD value called EnableBalloonTips with Hex value of 0 and restart your computer.
19:01.36mheathBecause most updates don't need a reboot. Or at least lots of them don't
19:01.52^Migs^look here, mheath: http://www.the-pc-guru.com/How_to_stop_Windows_Update_n.php
19:01.54mheathWhy don't they have a "prompt me to reboot, and if I don't tell you to reboot, DON'T DO IT."
19:01.55brac[How to stop Windows Update nagging you to restart after an update]
19:02.33mheathIt seems like every time I leave my computer wroking on some important download or task overnight, I wake up to find that the computer rebooted 15 minutes after I starteed
19:03.35mheath^Migs^: I'm running Vista. The instruction on that page are for XP
19:03.49findlaymheath: we can't help you
19:03.56findlayplease install XP and call back
19:04.05Tenemheath: forbid access to the internet to the vista box
19:04.06findlay:-)
19:04.13Teneno updates
19:04.16^Migs^why tf are you running Vista?
19:04.51^Migs^I wonder what genius at Microsoft got paid thousands of dollars to come up with the omnirecurring restart box
19:06.57decripto1a team of 40 senior engineers and 3 months of work
19:07.09decripto1oh and the 20 managers over that team
19:08.06dataw0lfwhere'd you come up with those numbers
19:08.21mheathbah, I don't find the prompts themselves nagging
19:08.26mheathI'm cool with it saying "Hey, you need to restart"
19:08.40mheathJust DON'T. FREAKIN. DO. IT. UNLESS. I. TELL. YOU. TO.
19:08.52mheathBTW, Weber States Orientation is a joke..That was a waste of a morning.
19:10.21^Migs^JBoss or Glassfish or something
19:10.22^Migs^oops
19:10.26mheathhttp://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/11/siberia.babymammoth.reut/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
19:10.28^Migs^haha I know mheath
19:10.28brac[Baby mammoth discovered in Siberia - CNN.com]
19:10.30mheathI hate articles like that
19:10.33^Migs^http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160135007203
19:10.36^Migs^that's what I meant to post
19:10.37mheath"Scientists hope the animal might yield DNA samples that could be used to clone and effectively resurrect the extinct members of the elephant family.
19:10.54mheathYah! Lets play with nature and evolution!
19:11.09mheathRessurect creates that became extint (for a good reason) thousands of years ago
19:11.10TeneWhat's your objection to that, mheath?
19:11.29mheathTene: The earth's ecosystem is carefully balanced.
19:11.34TeneAre you asserting that an active agent caused their extinction?
19:11.42mheathYou try to force introduce a bizzare new population, things go wrong
19:11.45findlayTene!
19:11.52Tenefindlay!
19:11.55findlayTene's superpower is The Extinctor!
19:12.25findlayor something like that
19:12.37Tenefindlay: not yet.  first I have to survive the end of the universe and stay around into the beginning again.
19:15.02^Migs^watch that car's video
19:15.03^Migs^it's awesome
19:16.32mheathlmao thats sweet
19:16.49findlay~jerk
19:16.49ibotsomebody said jerk was the derivative of acceleration with respect to time
19:16.56MSC386__Next, they're gonna find a way to clone dinosaurs or some stupid thing, and then Jurassic Park becomes real?
19:16.59findlayright
19:17.19mheathWell, cloning dinosaurs is quite easy, you see
19:17.40MSC386__I don't like the sound of that...  A T-Rex running down Main Street looking for an open bar...
19:17.43mheathJust use DNA extracted from  prehistoric mosquitoes trapped in amber.
19:17.45mheath;-P
19:17.51findlaythere's this one kind of crazy motion in classical electrodynamics that doesn't operate under the conventional conditions of force
19:17.52MSC386__Yup.
19:18.52*** join/#utah decripto1 (i=decripto@nat/novell/x-aa4c7e787cb533b2)
19:24.45mheath^Migs^: I just thought about something with that car
19:24.52mheathWhat if you locked the key fob in it?
19:25.05^Migs^hahahaha
19:25.30mheathYou'd be so scrwed
19:31.58*** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun)
19:33.24sinuhemheath, MSC386__: I somehow doubt the feasability of the JP scenario, regardless of our existing technology to manufacture sheep for Scottish farmers.
19:36.26*** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.88)
19:38.43Lakshmihey sargun
19:38.52MSC386__You may be right, but then again never underestimate the power of imagination.  That's how we got to the moon in 1969.
19:39.27sinuhe1969 was a very good year.  The moon landing and Unics.
19:39.36sinuheThe band Rush formed.
19:39.41MSC386__Yup.
19:39.58MSC386__Sinuhe, I gotta bail...
19:40.04sinuheLaters.
19:40.05MSC386__I'll be back though...
19:40.11sinuheScary thought.
19:45.23*** join/#utah ddrfreak (n=ddrfreak@c-76-27-63-83.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
19:46.04ddrfreakhey
19:50.37mheathHey, Dr. Freak!
19:50.38mheathErm
19:50.39mheathwai
19:50.40mheathWait
19:50.44mheathDDR Freak.
19:50.56ddrfreaklol there ya go.
19:51.09sjansengoozbach: What me read?
19:52.30decripto1an english grammer book :)
19:54.21sjansendecripto1: You've obvious missed the reference to Alfred E. Neuman
19:54.38decripto1my apologies
19:55.10dataw0lfisn't it ... grammar?
19:55.47sjansenspellling ain't imoprtant
19:56.03decripto1good spelling = poor imagination
19:56.08mheathGNU Stow is cool. Anyone know of any distros that make use of it?
19:56.21sjansenEye'm 2 l33t 2 spell.
19:59.13sinuheThere's several package management utilties from GNU.  What is interesting is swbis, which I haven't seen used in a distro, yet (probably because it is more complex than rpm or apt, but is *the* posix implimentation).
20:05.36sjansen2 legit
20:05.40sjansen2 legit 2 quit
20:05.43sjansen2 legit
20:05.45sjansen2 legit 2 quit
20:05.49^Migs^hay hay!
20:06.03sjansen^Migs^: Hay is for horses.
20:06.18emcnabb~lart sjansen
20:06.18ibotacting on orders from an unspecified client drags sjansen into court suing for $200 million
20:06.37*** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog)
20:08.53sjansensinuhe: What's posix? Is that something new in Vista or can I use it with XP?
20:09.59sjansenHeh, guess I scared him off.
20:10.04dataw0lfsjansen: you knocked him off the internet with your inanity
20:10.26sjansenToo bad. I was looking forward to insulting rms and praising esr.
20:10.38*** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@66.123.104.210)
20:10.46sjansensinuhe! yay!
20:10.56sjansensinuhe: What's posix? Is that something new in Vista or can I use it with XP too?
20:11.10sinuheDon't start.  :-)
20:11.58mheathhmm, swbis looks cool..
20:12.29sinuheI'm trying to convince the current maintainer of core distro to use it.  We'll see if I'm successful.
20:13.27sjansenDon't don't don't let's start
20:13.30sjansenThis is the worst part
20:13.46sjansenhttp://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:Don%27t_Let%27s_Start_%28Single_Mix%29
20:14.03dataw0lfsjansen: ooh, please do
20:14.09dataw0lfesr++
20:14.14dataw0lfthe only thing you have to say is
20:14.15sinuhehehe
20:14.18dataw0lfESR likes guns
20:14.18mheathI'm looking into some distro ideas right now
20:14.19Jayce^esr++, he's got guns :)
20:14.21dataw0lfRMS doesn't
20:14.25Jayce^dataw0lf++
20:14.27dataw0lfJayce^: :D
20:14.34sinuheesr only *thinks* he has guns
20:14.37mheathStuff that maintains a clean, simple, elegant, and traditional UNIX feel while offering some powerful options
20:14.49mheathA package manager like that wouold be perfect. Based on a posix spe.
20:14.50sjansenAnd I'm pretty sure esr bathes bi-weekly. I don't think you can say that about rms.
20:14.55mheath*psec.
20:14.55Jayce^dataw0lf, did I tell you about my more recent non-paint-throwing purchase?
20:15.01Jayce^Springfield XD-40, 4"
20:15.10sinuheThere are advantages to being a long hair hippy.
20:15.36mheathJayce^: Cool gun
20:15.39sjansenI'm all for hair. Especially beards. Don't have the patience to grow out my hair.
20:15.49dataw0lfJayce^: NICE
20:16.01sjansenBut long haired unbathed commie hippies trying to steal everyone's software?
20:16.03Jayce^excellent gun, 'specially for the price
20:16.18dataw0lfhow much you get it for?
20:16.25Jayce^sjansen, but the worst part is the emacs...
20:16.55Jayce^dataw0lf, $460, with the extra mag, loader, holster, and clip holster
20:17.02sjansenDidn't RMS create the original draft version of COBOL++? Or was that FORBOL? COLTRAN?
20:17.02dataw0lfif you use emacs, you're a commie, I think we can all agree on that
20:17.02mheathI got the opportunity to shoot an old revolver pistol that belonged to my grandpa while I was in Colorado.
20:17.03sinuhesjansen: no, in this case, they try to reauthor everyone's software as free (as in free speech)
20:17.08dataw0lfJayce^: Nice.
20:17.12mheathJayce^: what do you use it for? Just...entertainment + self defense?
20:17.23dataw0lfpaint
20:17.24dataw0lfball
20:17.27Jayce^pretty much...
20:17.44Jayce^the 4" is a little larger than you really want for concealed, but I *can* do it..
20:17.59Jayce^but it's decent in my large hands, yet my wife can still handle it pretty well
20:18.07dataw0lfI have tiny hands
20:18.23dataw0lfcompact glock 10mm ftw
20:18.44Jayce^dataw0lf, the XD's compete head to head with the glock, yet are a bit less expensive.
20:18.57dataw0lfJayce^: I haven't fired one
20:19.01Jayce^can get them in compact also, but better clip size
20:19.26Jayce^the compact glocks always are a pain to me though, too small, I always have them going off to the left..
20:19.35dataw0lfya, they're perfect for me
20:19.36sjansensinuhe: No, I mean steal everyone's software. Haven't you read the essays where RMS says he wants to make proprietary software illegal? Then he's going to force proprietary software developers to have see with flowers and be baptized into the church of emacs.
20:19.44dataw0lfI kinda feel like a girl carrying one
20:19.49dataw0lfbut gotta do what you gotta do!
20:20.04sinuheIt's not that he wants to make it illegal; he wants to make non-legal.
20:20.45*** join/#utah ddrfreak (n=ddrfreak@c-76-27-63-83.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
20:20.50sinuheIn other words, it's not Sen Hatch's crazy idea of copyright law being a day less than infinity as a way of interpreting "for a limited time" in the constitution.
20:21.15sjansenI find it interesting that don't deny the flower allegations. So you do concede he's a menace to society? A corrupter of youth?
20:21.22sinuheOh, by.  This is going to immediately get drawn out, isn't it?  I had one of these with Lamont yesterday.  (Very personable guy, might I add.)
20:22.20sinuheCorrupter of youth?  Sure, why not.  Menance?  In some cases, hopefully.
20:23.05ddrfreaklol i'm pretty good, but i'm much fatter then that kid
20:23.55mrpullfat kid might be the best search term on you tube ever
20:24.29ddrfreaktell me about it
20:24.43Jayce^mrpull, dang dude, you've ruined the rest of my day
20:24.51Jayce^http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzS-OdWVpHo&mode=related&search=
20:25.05*** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@65.89.234.66)
20:25.50sinuhes/by/my/
20:27.05sjansensinuhe: You're not a KDE user, are you?
20:27.11sinuheNo!
20:27.14sjansenThat's a hangin' offense round these parts.
20:28.04mrpulli think when I tried he first KDE beta was when i realized how stupid the license purists are
20:28.15sinuheI prefer fvwm2 and window maker.  On occasion I use Gnome.
20:28.30mrpullJayce^:  that is classic.  i saw that on tv!
20:28.35sjansenWhen the MT license changed, it reaffirmed that the license purists were right.
20:28.39mrpullis that his mom?
20:28.40*** join/#utah hboy (n=ddrfreak@c-76-27-63-83.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
20:28.57sjansenDeath to proprietary software!
20:29.01sinuheKDE is very poorly implimented.  I haven't decided about QT.
20:29.12sjansen<PROTECTED>
20:29.56ddrfreaki've never really had any good experiences with QT
20:29.59sjansenThere is no such thing as "open enough". It's livre or it isn't.
20:30.11fozzmooHmmm. Chopped livre.
20:30.16sjansenQt is based on C++. Therefore, it's evil be definition.
20:31.04sinuheNow, now: C++ isn't evil.  The problem is most don't know how to properly program with it.  (I just opened another can of worms, didn't I?  I keep doing that.)
20:33.25mheathGNU sysutils...hmm.
20:33.45mheathI _really_ might have to start setting up my own little distro system soon :P
20:34.13sinuheI'm waiting for when the current netutils package becomes stable.
20:34.26sinuhe(CVS only: there's not even an alpha release yet)
20:34.55sinuheStart browsing savannah and directory.fsf.org/gnu and you'll get lost in rms happy software.
20:35.02mheathyeah
20:35.08mheathlooking at directory.fsf.org/gnu :P
20:35.11mheathsysutils looks cool though
20:35.20mheathHasn't seen any updates since 2006
20:35.28mheathAnd, IIRC, It mainly is made for GNU/Hurd systems.
20:35.31sinuheUpdates to teh directory?
20:35.40mheathHuh?
20:35.55sinuheAll GNU software is required to be portable between Hurd and Linux.
20:36.06sinuhe(See info coding)
20:36.10mheathYeah
20:36.21mheathBut they, for example, reference  "login" script
20:36.40mheathWhich has no place in GNU Linux, but sounds possibly applicable to the hurd
20:38.09sinuheWhen does your config.log say after you configure the package for GNU+Linux?
20:38.15sinuhes/When/What/
20:38.34mheathI haven't installed it.
20:40.47sinuheYou don't need to: just configure it.
20:42.54sinuhePut simply, I'm sure there are Hurd specific things there, but that doesn't mean they are enabled for Linux when so built.
20:45.30goozbach2 legit!
20:45.35goozbachoh ohhh!
20:49.49goozbachtoo LEGIT!
20:49.55goozbachdamn you STUART!!!!!
20:50.26*** join/#utah Lakshmi____ (n=chatzill@adsl-69-109-161-88.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
20:52.00MSC386__Sinuhe I'm going offline for a bit...
20:52.32MSC386__sjansen, thanks for your kindness.
20:52.40MSC386__Da Svedanye////
20:55.30goozbachJayce^: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vFQaiX7M8U&mode=related&search=
20:57.41Jayce^goozbach, seen that one
20:58.14goozbachhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddMowxKchko
20:58.49^Migs^OOOOOOLD
21:01.41SargunThanks god badly coding isn't a crime.
21:02.01SargunI need a server FARM for my SEARCH ENGINE
21:02.02mrpullgoozbach:  that was a chuckle
21:02.25mrpullSargun:  sign up for EC2
21:02.45SargunNo, its for work.
21:03.07Sargunbut I'm stuck between choosing my 1.5 Ghz lappy with 1G RAM
21:03.26Sargunor a crappy CentOS box with super-old versions of everything.
21:03.54mrpullhow do you downsize from a farm to a single laptop?
21:04.47mrpullso no PLUG tonight?
21:05.02mrpullwasn't there some consecutive meetings record to be maintained?
21:06.35Sargunmrpull, by having LOTS of patience.
21:07.21mrpullSargun:  what sort of search engine is it?
21:07.57SargunA memory intensive one.
21:08.10SargunIts not really the searching that takes a long time
21:08.24Sargunits parsing the results and converting them to a sustainable format.
21:08.29mrpullsounds worthless if "memory intensive" is feature #1 and slow is feature #2
21:09.04^Migs^I wish bad coding were a crime.  I'm an awesome coder.
21:09.11^Migs^and it's IRRITATING when others aren't.
21:09.32sinuheI'm having Theo flashbacks.
21:12.13*** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)
21:22.40beandogI cant belive how awesome I am.
21:24.26dataw0lfyea, it's hard to quantify in your mind a negative awesomeness, but there you are
21:24.33goozbachbeandog: YOU'RE awesome? I once rocked so hard, I *KILLED* a man
21:25.25beandogya weenies.
21:33.01*** join/#utah hatul30 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-8f9ba47a8325554e)
21:45.07*** join/#utah {phoenyx} (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13)
21:47.40mrpullSeen on UTOS (Matt Asay):  RPM based distros are solid, but unfortunately, they lack hand-holding for beginners.
21:47.52mrpullremember when RPM distros _were_ the hand holders?
21:48.06ScytheBlade1They were holding different hands.
21:49.01dataw0lfhow does having an RPM based package management system have much affect on beginners?
21:49.03mrpulli guess so.  i'm probably taking it out of context, but it is amusing to me that RedHat is now considered the hard distro (by some)
21:49.04sinuheI cut my teeth on Slackware.  RPM was a relaxing compared to that.  Now GNU has swbis: no hand holding.
21:49.30mrpullwhat the heck is swbis?
21:49.46sinuheIt's GNU's implimentation of the POSIX package standard.
21:51.03mrpullwhatever.  i'll use whatever package tool RHEL and/or Ubuntu gives me.  I don't care if there is an arcane posix standard.
22:00.27*** part/#utah {phoenyx} (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13)
22:06.22beandogposix has a package standard?
22:06.38sinuheApparently.
22:06.43beandogWhat would be a real miracle is if all the package managers could use automake and autoconf properly
22:06.51beandogor at least stop bastardizing their configure and make scripts.
22:06.58beandogwhich is 99% of the irritation in writing ebuilds.
22:07.07beandogfixing upstreams build issues
22:07.08mheathquite a neat package standard, the more I look at it..
22:07.26dataw0lfbeandog: Gentoo hasn't died yet?
22:07.38sinuhePOSIX spec IEEE Std 1387.2-1995
22:07.44beandogdataw0lf: not while theres still trolls
22:07.46beandog;)
22:07.53dataw0lf:D
22:12.49^Migs^I have a feeling that Mohinder here is going to just leave us without finishing the job
22:13.01^Migs^he just said, "Well, I'll probably have the server up tomorrow though there might be some minor issues."
22:13.10^Migs^wtf?  We're paying you $300/hr.  You've had a whole week.  I don't want "minor issues."
22:13.24^Migs^if we wanted "minor issues" we'd have done the job ourselves.  Which we've practically been doing anyway.
22:13.51Sargunor you could be hiring someone like me! or mheath! for practically free labour.
22:14.01^Migs^I KNOW
22:14.18^Migs^Sanjay has pretty much been learning as he goes, right along with us, it seems
22:14.24beandogI'll do it for $299 an hour
22:14.50^Migs^this is really pissing me off
22:14.52*** join/#utah kreg (n=kreg@208.98.188.95)
22:14.55^Migs^I thought Injuns were supposed to be cheap
22:15.15^Migs^what's BEA doing sending Apu to us and slapping a $300/hr pricetag on his useless service?
22:15.25SargunSanjay==Mohinder?
22:15.31Tene^Migs^: your racist language really isn't appreciated here...
22:15.36mheathlmao
22:15.38^Migs^yeah, Sanjay/Mohinder/Apu/Mohammerjeet, whatever
22:15.42Sargunlol
22:15.47^Migs^racist language?
22:15.50SargunApu is south indian.
22:16.07SargunMohammerjeet is uhh -- I don't know where you got that from, sounds more northern though
22:16.12SargunSanjay - middle india
22:16.15^Migs^I don't have a clue what his real name is.  Virpul or something.
22:16.17Sargunhaha
22:16.23^Migs^Virpul Petal
22:16.29SargunVirpul, that sounds like some sort of open source CMS
22:16.37^Migs^that would be a good name for one
22:16.55^Migs^we could've put the $12000 toward a MUCH better use
22:17.14sinuheSo why would an "Injun" be cheap?
22:17.19^Migs^outsourcing
22:17.27mheathHmm, Sargun, that sounds like a Turkish football player.
22:17.49^Migs^I don't really blame him.  I blame his company that decided to hire a noob then contract him out at ridiculously high prices, and I blame us for not learning our lesson and realizing BEA sucks in every way, shape, and form
22:18.10^Migs^Their help desk support is worthless.  Why would a live consultant be any better?
22:18.24SargunSpending money on me
22:18.32Sargunor mheath.
22:18.38Sargunmheath, VPS?
22:18.59*** join/#utah markl__ (n=mark@c-24-10-214-91.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
22:19.02Sargun^Migs^, now, explain me why corporations would rather hire foreign workers over people like mheath?:
22:19.13mheath...
22:19.26Sargunmheath, sorry to make an example of you, but I needed someone young and smart.
22:19.31Sargunand ^Migs^ knows you.
22:19.33^Migs^it's simple.  Corporations mistakenly think that a U.S. bachelor's degree = Indian bachelor's degree
22:19.36mheathSargun: because foreign workers regularly have college and technical training?
22:19.43^Migs^I know mheath better than he realizes
22:19.59mheath(Though, as ^Migs^ pointed out, it may not be as good as teh US equivelent0
22:20.03Sargunbut does that even come close to experience or practical knowledge?
22:20.08^Migs^absolutely not
22:20.18^Migs^even the U.S. has diploma mill colleges
22:20.31^Migs^India just happens to have a lot more
22:20.42^Migs^and their accreditation system isn't any match for ours
22:20.48^Migs^accreditation is all subjective, anyway
22:21.23dataw0lfthat's why SMRT indians come to the U.S. to get their degrees
22:21.27^Migs^exactly
22:21.37^Migs^although even a degree really doesn't mean much these days
22:21.45^Migs^U.S. colleges have become a joke
22:21.53dataw0lfmy mom's a doctor, and not to sound racist, but she said that almost every indian doctor she's met is an idiot
22:21.59^Migs^I don't doubt it
22:22.01Sargundataw0lf, I agree.
22:22.06^Migs^except Mohinder from Heroes
22:22.11Sargundataw0lf, you can find some smart ones, but its difficult.
22:22.30^Migs^I don't even know if Dhalsim over here actually has a degree
22:22.38Sargunthey do it because of indian stereotypes that they have to live upto.
22:22.52^Migs^you mean the stereotypes they have to overcome
22:23.02Sargun^Migs^, Then don't hire flipping foreign workers and start taking risks with younger people.
22:23.07Sargunor smart people?
22:23.09sinuheA certificate is more about credibility than capability.
22:23.11^Migs^we SPECIFICALLYL requested a NON-INDIAN
22:23.16^Migs^the morons sent us one anyway
22:23.18Sargunpossibly hire smarter people than yourselves?
22:23.25dataw0lfhehe
22:23.28Sargunthen don't f-ing outsource it.
22:23.29mheath"flipping foreign workers"...
22:23.41Sargunits cheaper to hire someone locally.
22:23.50mheathUh
22:23.53^Migs^we're NOT outsourcing it
22:23.59^Migs^we have a maintenance contract with BEA
22:24.00mheath"flipping foreign workers" ARE local
22:24.04Sargunthen how did you get an idiot?
22:24.06^Migs^We're using BEA WebLogic as our J2EE server
22:24.07Sargunuhh
22:24.09mheathIf they were back home they wouldn't be foreign to where they are, would they? :P
22:24.10Sargungah.
22:24.20^Migs^because BEA has moved all its support team offshore
22:24.27Sargun
22:25.55dataw0lf<PROTECTED>
22:26.44Sargun^Migs^, how hard would it be to pay someone a monthly retainer that is sane to do your support?
22:27.00mheathOK, sargun, lets get rid of all the foreign workers and higher local people LIKE YOU
22:27.07mheathGo get a job picking oranges. I'm sure they'd love to have you.
22:27.33Sargunmheath, No, I mean, with H1B
22:28.03mheathWhat about H1B?
22:28.30mheathOh, I see your point
22:28.39mheathOnly middle class, white americans can have the technical jobs.
22:29.11SargunNo, only americans can have technical jobs.
22:29.25SargunHow many competent H1Bs have you seen?
22:29.32SargunI've seen a handful myself.
22:29.34^Migs^OOOO
22:29.40^Migs^Mahatma just sassy-mouthed me
22:29.44^Migs^W T F
22:29.47Sargunhahaa
22:29.51SargunActually, the sysadmin here is an H1B
22:29.53^Migs^that's it.  We're firing him tomorrow
22:30.03dataw0lfI've met a few good h1bs
22:30.04mheathSargun: Are you Native American?
22:30.06^Migs^if not firing, we're sending a complaint
22:30.07mrpull^migs^:  you are out of line man... no more name calling
22:30.08mheathPure blood indiain?
22:30.09Sargunthen, again, he has a freaking PhD in Physics.
22:30.12^Migs^name calling?
22:30.15Sargunmheath, born, and raised.
22:30.20Sargunwhat'd he call you?
22:30.26^Migs^I didn't call him any names
22:30.33^Migs^well, not any bad names
22:30.34mheathSargun: YOu really are?
22:30.37Sargun^Migs^, he means in the channel
22:30.49dataw0lfSargun: I don't think mheath understands what you're getting at
22:31.01dataw0lfI think you may be four or five steps ahead of him
22:31.03SargunHaha.
22:31.12dataw0lfslow down a bit so he can catch up so I can enjoy it some more
22:31.20mheathSargun: Unless you're Native American, guess what, You have ancestors that used to be migrant workers.
22:31.31dataw0lfoh wow! I never knew he was going to say that!
22:31.42dataw0lfnative americans were migrant workers from asia
22:31.50^Migs^exactly
22:31.51dataw0lfnext
22:31.56^Migs^and I AM Native American
22:31.59^Migs^I was born and raised in AMERICA
22:32.08mheathWant to tell your great-great-great grandpa that HE can't have a technical job?
22:32.09dataw0lfwhich is what Sargun was getting at like 10 lines ago
22:32.23dataw0lfSargun: I'll revv up the Delorian
22:32.31^Migs^just because I'm not some tree-hugger with a name like Flying Bear doesn't mean I'm less of a Native American
22:33.01dataw0lf^Migs^: you certainly do have a way with picking nasty stereotypes and vocalizing them
22:33.02mheathooh, guess what......Sargun just invalidated my Great-Great-Granpa's Job...he was a first generate immigrant, and a blacksmith.
22:33.06mheathStealing those american jobs
22:33.13^Migs^blacksmiths are cool
22:33.14mheathHe needed to find a proper job, like a farmhand!
22:33.19Sargunoh, god.
22:33.25mheath^Migs^: No, it's a technical job
22:33.31^Migs^uh
22:33.32dataw0lfis mheath even giving any sort of rational argument?
22:33.33^Migs^did I say it's not?
22:33.37mheathWe can't have these Irish immigrants stealing our technical jobs!
22:33.38^Migs^I don't think so, dataw0lf
22:33.46^Migs^crazy Irish!
22:33.53SargunH1A, H2A, H2B
22:33.54dataw0lfHAHAHA YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDPARENTS CAME HERE SO YOU ARE A MIGRANT WORKER TOO!
22:33.57dataw0lfyippee!
22:34.06^Migs^I'm a native Earthian
22:34.08dataw0lfthe problem, of course, is that our ancestors came here as families
22:34.18dataw0lfand didn't send American money back to fund other countries economies
22:34.38dataw0lfit was a large migration
22:34.50dataw0lfand it was also spurred by droughts, famine, and lots of sickness
22:34.58dataw0lfand completely incomparable to anything today
22:35.11dataw0lfso, like, Next.
22:35.26mheathSargun: Or do you want to revise your argument? "Only Americans can hold technical jobs, now that I'm an American and my family tree has become established here enough to came nationality"
22:35.38mheaths/came/claim/g
22:36.05SargunOk, do this, stop hiring people that you can find under H1B.
22:36.07findlayartificial barriers to citizenship and commerce are among the most damaging elements in the global society
22:36.12Sarguner
22:36.23SargunStop hiring people under H1B that you can find here.
22:36.28mheathSargun: Very few foreign workers are able to find technical jobs here, anyway.
22:36.30sinuhefindlay: I agree.
22:36.35mheathLet me give you an example
22:36.36Sargunmheath, oh, BS.
22:36.39mheathI worked wiht a cook @ applebees
22:37.00mheathThe guy was here in America raising money to go back and finish his college degree. He was working towards his freakin Ph.D. in electronic engineering.
22:37.07mheathIE, he had a masters degree in electronic engineering
22:37.17mheathAnd he was working as a cook at applebees.
22:37.23SargunIf you are qualified, and you live in South East Asia, and are hired remotely, you are set for a job.
22:38.02findlaytarriffs and farm subsidies are devices that fleece the incumbent powers
22:38.06mheathSargun: let me ask you this
22:38.17mheathSay you found a really good university in Europe
22:38.19^Migs^bye everyone
22:38.23mheathHad some really cool major/program you wanted
22:38.34mheathDo you feel you should be able to attend that university?
22:38.36Lakshmihey sargun
22:38.43mheathOr should you be blocked because you're not European?
22:38.54SargunNo, that's totally different.
22:38.58mheathI know it is
22:38.59dataw0lfhow did this go from migrant workers to education
22:39.02mheathBut my next example
22:39.29mheathSargun: While attending said university, do you feel you should be able to get a technical job related to the degree you're earning / one you already have, to help pay for college?
22:39.49SargunAttending the European university?
22:39.53mheathYep.
22:39.56Sargunhired by a european firm?
22:40.01mheathYep.
22:40.06SargunI don't think I should have the right to, no.
22:40.22SargunI think the privilege should be there
22:40.43Sargunbut I would advise that European firms hire European workers
22:40.49mheathSargun: You think the privilege should be there? Why should you have that privilege, and not Indian workers?
22:40.51Sargunwith European wages.
22:41.53SargunIndian workers should have the privilege, I'm not saying to remove that, I'm telling companies to stop whining about the lack of proper intelligence in foreign workers if you're going to hire them.
22:43.29mheathI believe earlier you said <Sargun> No, only americans can have technical jobs.
22:45.56SargunNo, a correction to your "<mheath> Only middle class, white americans can have the technical jobs."
22:46.10SargunAmerican is anyone who is in america, living here, legally.
22:46.21sinuheI'm off in a few minutes.  See yous all later.
22:46.25Sargunsinuhe, have fun
22:47.50mheathSargun: I just find it funny that you're like 16 and making comments about immigration policy.
22:48.13mrpullsays the wise 18 year old
22:48.39dataw0lfSargun is 16?
22:48.41SargunAre you falling backing to the older people are smart argument?
22:48.44sinuheI've met some astonishingly aware teenagers.  (I've also met some oblivious teenagers.)
22:48.48Sargunhaha
22:48.56dataw0lfI can tell how old mheath is
22:49.01dataw0lfI thought Sargun was my age or something
22:49.07sinuheI've met 40 year olds that are just as clueless.
22:49.09Sargunhow old are you dataw0lf ?
22:49.09mheathsinuhe: Fair enough.
22:49.12dataw0lfgood job Sargun, you sound smart
22:49.17SargunThanks :-)
22:49.18dataw0lfSargun: 25
22:49.33dataw0lfwell, in 3 days anyways
22:49.42SargunOh, Happy early birthday if I miss it.
22:49.44sinuheAh: to be 25 again.
22:49.56dataw0lfdanke.
22:50.04mheathSargun's thoughts just strike me as not-really-throught-out subtle bigotry, probably introduced by parents or friends whoa re bigots.
22:50.16dataw0lfhaha
22:50.36Sargunfriends?
22:50.50dataw0lfand all of mheath's 18 year old culture and outlook is ORIGINAL
22:51.22SargunParents?
22:51.22mheath(And thats mainly from him laughing and joining in when Migs kept using derogatory names for Indians)
22:51.27dataw0lfbigotry is funny
22:51.58SargunCrap, I forgot how to use my search engine.
22:51.59sinuheWe're all plagued by it.  The key is to inform each other of the bigotry and also be willing to be corrected.
22:52.34mheathsinuhe: Which is what I was doing; I was trying to make some comparisons and put things into perspective.
22:52.37sinuheBigotry has become such a nasty word that we don't talk about it, but to be able to correct it, we have to willing to be open with each other.
22:53.04dataw0lfwhat're you talking about
22:53.21dataw0lfAl Sharpton brings up 'bigotry' on the news every time a black person stubs his or her toe at a white owned business
22:53.36dataw0lfthe problem is we're PREOCCUPIED with bigotry
22:54.54sinuheI mean in the sense of, "Hey, you used a slur that was derogatory to my Welsh heritage because of...."  If I say bigot, however, the discussion has ended, and any openness to another's Welsh bigotry needing to be changed dies, yet calling it bigotry is what it is.  That's what I meant.
22:55.04*** join/#utah Cubeyfreak (n=qbfreak@c-68-49-125-83.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
22:55.20SargunCubeyfreak, heya.
22:55.29sinuheAl Sharpton isn't willing to have a conversation: he's making a political statement.
22:56.07dataw0lffor his own gain, and in the meantime completely using the people he says he champions to assist in his selfishness
22:56.17mheathToo bad none of the other sw* stuff seems to be implemented for GNU
22:56.34sinuhemheath: I very was impressed with it, though like vi, the first time you mess with it, the command syntax takes some getting used to.
22:56.53mheathBecause it seems like a lot of the power of those packages is utilized in the other sw* programs
22:57.01mheathsinuhe: They even have a rpm2swibs program :P
22:57.06sinuheRe: swbis  I agree, though enough is implimented to get a package made and installed, etc.
22:57.13sinuheI really like that one!
22:57.31sinuheThe irony is that rpm has to be installed to use it.
22:57.33mheathThe problem is, there isn't very good doucmentation
22:57.42mheathAnd some of the docs are kinda...confusing.
22:57.51sinuheSee my comment about vi.
22:57.58mheathTheres no really good, clear tutorial on creating packages
22:58.10mheathI might have to write one up after I figure this outt some more.
22:59.40sinuheLaters for a second time.
23:01.16SargunYay! it works!
23:02.18SargunI now have 224 MiB of Database.
23:02.20Sargunall over me!
23:03.51mheathbah, I need to see an ortho doctor.
23:13.59Sargunhaha
23:15.14mheathHmm
23:35.40neybarbigot
23:40.57QBFreakor I could stop and read it and see the "getting help" section...
23:46.44goozbachhttp://leekspin.com
23:53.41*** join/#utah Fyre-Fighter (n=Fyre-Fig@63.81.210.163)
23:56.18mheathSo. Do standard CD-ROM drives tend to work okay when sideways?

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