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| 02:03.36 | atoponce | ~onjoin TimRiker ibot, jbot, apt, etc needs maintenace |
| 02:03.36 | ibot | atoponce: ok |
| 02:03.36 | atoponce | 2 minutes, and counting |
| 02:03.49 | atoponce | heh. faster than normal, eh? |
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| 13:04.18 | calvarez | hello |
| 13:19.04 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 13:35.19 | ^Migs^ | There's a guy in my ward who was diagnosed with aggressive brain cancer a couple months ago. Just yesterday I'd heard that they're stopping the chemo treatment and he has three months to live. He was the Elder's Quorum President, and his wife is pregnant with his 3rd (maybe it's his 4th) child. They're going to try to induce the baby just before he dies so he can spend a few days with it. |
| 13:38.42 | ^Migs^ | he's not much older than I am. It's so sad :( |
| 13:39.07 | ^Migs^ | so if anyone feels so inclined, please pray for the Ludlow family. |
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| 14:34.13 | calvarez | hmm, anybody familiar with AMD's 939 and AM2 sockets? |
| 14:34.24 | calvarez | need advice on a hardware update |
| 14:39.43 | ^Migs^ | my hardware is much older :( |
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| 14:45.16 | jsmith | calvarez: I've got several socket 939 boxes... why? |
| 14:45.46 | calvarez | I just want to confirm, AM2 processors do not fit on a 939 socket mobo, right? |
| 14:46.02 | jsmith | That's correct |
| 14:46.05 | fozzmoo | They do... |
| 14:46.05 | calvarez | ok |
| 14:46.10 | fozzmoo | but it won't work. :) |
| 14:46.21 | fozzmoo | And it may require the use of a mallet. |
| 14:46.26 | calvarez | fozzmoo, well, by "fitting" I meant not only physically |
| 14:46.48 | calvarez | I try to not hit my hardware with a mallet |
| 14:49.57 | raventh1 | some motherboards have adapters |
| 14:50.10 | raventh1 | but if I were you i'd get an AM2 board instead |
| 14:50.10 | raventh1 | :) |
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| 15:10.18 | ^Migs^ | the white trash family that moved into the neighborhood is likely moving out now. Because they say they don't "fit in." |
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| 15:22.31 | levi | ^Migs^: My sister-in-law has brain cancer, too, and probably about the same amount of time to live. |
| 15:23.01 | ^Migs^ | I'm sorry to hear that, levi |
| 15:23.27 | ^Migs^ | when was she diagnosed |
| 15:23.38 | ^Migs^ | it's amazing how quickly a family's life can change |
| 15:23.53 | levi | Several years ago. They fought it for a while, but it just came back with a vengeance a few months ago. |
| 15:24.01 | ^Migs^ | that's one of those things that when you get to the other side, you just have to ask God "Why?" |
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| 15:24.19 | ^Migs^ | oh man |
| 15:24.24 | levi | The crazy thing is, at the same time she was diagnosed, a virus attacked their son's heart and he had to have a transplant. |
| 15:24.28 | ^Migs^ | that's just nasty |
| 15:24.30 | ^Migs^ | gah |
| 15:24.43 | ^Migs^ | bad stuff happens in packages |
| 15:24.44 | levi | They were both in hospitals at the same time. |
| 15:25.06 | levi | Fortunately, he seems to be doing well with the transplant, although he's now been diagnosed with autism. |
| 15:25.07 | ^Migs^ | both this husband and wife are going to be in the hospital at the same time when they induce the baby. |
| 15:25.14 | ^Migs^ | how old is he? |
| 15:25.39 | levi | I don't remember exactly, but I think he just started Kindergarten. |
| 15:26.00 | ^Migs^ | I'll keep your sister-in-law and her family in my prayers, too. That's just awful. |
| 15:26.25 | levi | His older sister is 8, and is having anxiety issues. |
| 15:26.27 | ^Migs^ | no kid should have to face the death of a parent at such a young age |
| 15:26.49 | levi | Yeah. Their family is a wreck. |
| 15:27.02 | ^Migs^ | it makes you grateful for what you have |
| 15:27.26 | levi | The father has put on a ton of weight, and is likely to come down with diabetes and other illnesses if he doesn't get it under control. But it's not like he has a lot of time to take care of himself. |
| 15:29.43 | ^Migs^ | yeah, not right now he wouldn't. But the kids don't need to lose both parents. |
| 15:29.43 | ^Migs^ | I need to get some fat life insurance. |
| 15:29.52 | ^Migs^ | if I go, I don't want my family to completely suffer. They should at least be able to pay off the mortgage for themselves. |
| 15:30.11 | levi | Yeah. |
| 15:31.04 | jsmith | Yup... that's the first thing I did when I got a job |
| 15:31.47 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. Everythings so... upbeat and peachy today. |
| 15:32.01 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo, of course.. |
| 15:32.05 | *** join/#utah harleypig (n=IceChat7@160.7.239.177) |
| 15:32.11 | Jayce^ | great timing |
| 15:32.15 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 15:32.28 | harleypig | How's that? |
| 15:32.46 | Jayce^ | your onjoin + previous conversation |
| 15:32.50 | harleypig | Ah. |
| 15:32.58 | ^Migs^ | talking about how everyone's getting cancer and dying |
| 15:33.03 | harleypig | So I'm gonna have to wait till tomorrow morning to look at the logs. |
| 15:33.07 | ^Migs^ | and leaving behind tons of children and pregnant wives |
| 15:33.14 | harleypig | ? Who's got cancer? |
| 15:33.21 | ^Migs^ | guy in my church + levi's sister in law |
| 15:33.30 | ^Migs^ | both have brain cancer |
| 15:33.46 | fozzmoo | Guy speaking in church yesterday for mother's day mentioned that his mom was just diagnosed with colon cancer. |
| 15:33.56 | fozzmoo | Just... doing my part for the conversation. :) |
| 15:34.06 | ^Migs^ | that's depressing |
| 15:34.06 | Jayce^ | my neighbors grandpa was diagnosed with brain cancer three weeks ago, died last week.. |
| 15:34.22 | ^Migs^ | it's ridiculous how quickly brain cancer takes you |
| 15:34.37 | ^Migs^ | like I was saying, a family's entire life can change in a matter of months, or even weeks |
| 15:35.08 | ^Migs^ | at least he was a grandpa. The kids are grown up, and don't have to cope with not being raised without a father in their lives. |
| 15:35.20 | ^Migs^ | s/with not/with/ |
| 15:35.24 | levi | My wife's grandpa died a few weeks ago shortly after his late wife's daughters moved in and put up string at tripping height to 'keep the dogs in'. He, of course, tripped and received mortal injuries from the fall. |
| 15:35.33 | harleypig | We had a member on my mission go in for a normal examination and they discovered cancer in his pancreas ... he was dead in 5 weeks. Most dramatic transformation I've ever seen. |
| 15:36.17 | ^Migs^ | how on earth does a string keep dogs in? |
| 15:36.22 | levi | He was a Grand Master (or something like that) in the local Masonic lodge. |
| 15:36.42 | harleypig | ^Migs^: It's a myth ... supposedly they see the string and think they can';t get past it. |
| 15:37.00 | ^Migs^ | that's just asking for trouble |
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| 15:37.09 | harleypig | levi: Oh ... so he was an Illuminati? :> |
| 15:37.10 | ^Migs^ | at least for us bipeds |
| 15:37.38 | lukfugl_ | calling all redbeards (redbeard1, redbeard2, et al) |
| 15:37.54 | ^Migs^ | what's the probability of getting cancer? |
| 15:38.14 | Jayce^ | ^Migs^, my dog stops to think about it for a while, and usually won't do it without coercion... No problem digging under a fence though |
| 15:38.18 | jsmith | ^Migs^: 1 in 2, over the course of your lifetime |
| 15:38.29 | ^Migs^ | wtf |
| 15:38.31 | ^Migs^ | that high? |
| 15:38.34 | harleypig | Both my mom's parents died of cancer, my mission president also. My friend and mentor through school died of cancer. |
| 15:38.50 | ^Migs^ | why's it so high? |
| 15:38.54 | fozzmoo | Hmmm. Sounds like harleypig is carcinogenic. |
| 15:39.14 | Jayce^ | Dad died from it.. mom had a tumor removed... |
| 15:39.38 | jsmith | ^Migs^: Now, that's not the mortality rate -- but from what I understand, that's your chances of getting some type of cancer |
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| 15:40.15 | ^Migs^ | now I'm freaking out |
| 15:40.25 | ^Migs^ | you're going to make me lapse into a microbial fear or something |
| 15:40.32 | fozzmoo | Eat lots of green veggies... |
| 15:40.37 | fozzmoo | Exercise. |
| 15:40.48 | fozzmoo | and check for suspicious lumps frequently. |
| 15:40.51 | fozzmoo | (on yourself) |
| 15:40.54 | harleypig | fozzmoo: You don't know the half of it ... my mom has cancer in her legs ... its in remission (for the last 10 years) and I have several friends and acquaintenances who have contracted cancer over the years. |
| 15:41.18 | ^Migs^ | what's the success rate on getting rid of cancer? |
| 15:41.24 | harleypig | I keep offering to check women for cancer but they're not interested for some reason. |
| 15:41.25 | fozzmoo | Depends on the cancer. |
| 15:41.38 | ^Migs^ | what's the most common cancer, and what's the success rate on ridding it? |
| 15:41.49 | fozzmoo | Seems like most common cancers are pretty easily treated. |
| 15:41.51 | ^Migs^ | lol harlepig |
| 15:41.59 | ^Migs^ | s/harlepig/harleypig/ |
| 15:42.21 | fozzmoo | The risk of cancer goes way up later in life. |
| 15:42.21 | harleypig | ^Migs^: cancer.org |
| 15:42.22 | jsmith | ^Migs^: For men, it's skin cancer, prostate cancer, and colon cancer |
| 15:42.51 | fozzmoo | My family has a risk of colon cancer. I've already had 3 colonscopies and I'm only 35. |
| 15:42.54 | Jayce^ | but that's only if you don't have a heart issue first |
| 15:42.56 | harleypig | Smokers (even if you haven't smoked in years) your chance of throat, mouth and lung cancer go up dramatically. |
| 15:43.19 | fozzmoo | Swearing a lot raises those risks too. ;-) |
| 15:43.19 | ^Migs^ | skin cancer can be prevented with sunblock |
| 15:43.26 | ^Migs^ | usually. Prostate cancer and colon cancer, though, yeah. |
| 15:43.38 | fozzmoo | Don't use sunblock for those. |
| 15:43.40 | ^Migs^ | well I don't smoke. I'm not an idiot. |
| 15:43.53 | ^Migs^ | yeah, sunblock doesn't seem like best preventive tool. |
| 15:43.54 | harleypig | ^Migs^: That's another myth ... sort of. |
| 15:44.13 | ^Migs^ | it seems like it would be a myth |
| 15:44.16 | harleypig | Sunblock blocks only a portion of the suns radiation. |
| 15:44.39 | ^Migs^ | curse that sun |
| 15:44.40 | harleypig | It *decreases* the chances *slightly* |
| 15:44.43 | fozzmoo | I had a friend who was diagnosed with skin cancer... had a chunk of his upper arm scooped out. |
| 15:45.07 | fozzmoo | Looked like they got it all- from lymph node biopsies and stuff. |
| 15:45.40 | fozzmoo | But, from the biopsy of the original cancer, they told him his body had fought off the cancer quite a bit... and beaten it back. |
| 15:46.06 | fozzmoo | That kind of indicates, to me, that we may "get" cancer a lot more often than we think... |
| 15:46.09 | harleypig | It only takes one cell ... |
| 15:46.14 | fozzmoo | but our bodies just deal with it like it's supposed to. |
| 15:47.09 | rsimpkins | Okay, what is to stop me from getting the rhel isos and distributing them for free to everyone? |
| 15:47.10 | elg | practical issues? |
| 15:47.10 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: Heeby jeebies? |
| 15:47.19 | elg | maybe they have copyrighted stuff on the isos that aren't free? |
| 15:47.21 | rsimpkins | My point is there is no legal issue there, right? |
| 15:47.36 | rsimpkins | so some of the software is GPL, and some of it isn't? |
| 15:47.42 | fozzmoo | Don't you need an RHN subscription to get updates? |
| 15:47.53 | ^Migs^ | stupid cancer |
| 15:47.56 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins, the software is gpl, the images/etc aren't |
| 15:48.02 | rsimpkins | My real question is do you have the right to re-distribute binaries (even modified ones) based on GPLd code? |
| 15:48.32 | Jayce^ | if they are stripped of the copywritten info, eg Centos style |
| 15:48.54 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: I'm wondering if you can argue that a binary is nothing more than the source code in a different form. |
| 15:49.12 | elg | you can redistribute the gpl'd programs |
| 15:49.14 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Basically, you agree that if you redistribute them, you lose *all* support for all your systems. At least, that's what I understood last time I looked at. |
| 15:49.19 | elg | the question is the "added value" |
| 15:49.32 | jsmith | rsimpkins: But there's nothing stopping you from using CentOS or rebuilding the SRPMs yourself |
| 15:49.34 | fozzmoo | Right. Red Hat isn't "selling" the software. |
| 15:49.43 | fozzmoo | They're selling the support and the RHN subscription. |
| 15:49.50 | rsimpkins | jsmith: right, but I'm really more interested in the binaries. |
| 15:50.22 | elg | so my laptop came back. they wiped the drive and installed tiger fresh, though I'm not sure why. |
| 15:50.26 | jsmith | rsimpkins: And the CentOS binaries aren't good enough? |
| 15:50.33 | rsimpkins | If I get a copy of the RHEL isos, and regularly suck down the RH updates (every x hours), and provide a simple rpm that changes the yum repo to mine, there is nothing legally wrong there I'm thinking. |
| 15:50.48 | elg | I suspect they suspected the linux install and refit, perhaps, and so wiped. found that didn't help and replaced the top (keyboard, trackpad, etc.) |
| 15:50.54 | elg | no big deal, I made a full backup |
| 15:51.08 | elg | odd thing though, it has a 74GB partition, with 20GB used, and 700MB free |
| 15:52.18 | elg | personally I feel about as inclined to usurp RHEL as I do to steal clothes from homeless people |
| 15:52.30 | elg | not comparing redhat to homeless people |
| 15:52.41 | elg | I'm just really not interested in touching homeless people's clothes :) |
| 15:53.22 | elg | lots of fun, but smelly |
| 15:53.44 | rsimpkins | I'm wondering why the CentOS project just didn't do that. Why go to the trouble to recompile everything and all the updates? Why not release 'centos' within HOURS of upstream by basically providing the binaries for free - unmodified. |
| 15:53.46 | jsmith | rsimpkins: My personal feeling is that Red Hat does a lot of good things for community and if I needed the binaries (and I don't), then I'd pay for them |
| 15:54.00 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Because of trademark issues |
| 15:54.35 | rsimpkins | so if I take a GPLd project and call it 'Ryan's Version of <this GPLd Project' and got a trademark on it - you can't touch it? |
| 15:54.49 | elg | sure you can touch it |
| 15:54.55 | elg | you've just got to remove the trademarked stuff |
| 15:54.56 | elg | logos, etc. |
| 15:55.05 | jsmith | elg: Yeah, like elg says |
| 15:55.12 | elg | see firefox/iceweasel |
| 15:55.30 | elg | heh. the volume needs to be repaired |
| 15:55.33 | elg | invalid b-tree node size |
| 15:55.45 | rsimpkins | So if I take a GPLd project and put some copyright material in it - you can't redistribute it? It breaks the GPL? |
| 15:55.59 | elg | or maybe I should just go to school and get my tiger dvd and reinstall |
| 15:56.13 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins, just the material in question, the rest is fine |
| 15:56.24 | elg | rsimpkins: you're confusing GPLed software with Distribution |
| 15:56.25 | jsmith | rsimpkins: You're getting *copyrights* and *trademarks* mixed up... |
| 15:56.32 | rsimpkins | ahh |
| 15:56.33 | elg | that too |
| 15:57.24 | rsimpkins | So how does that work? If I give a buddy a copy of RHEL disks that doesn't break the law does it? |
| 15:57.38 | jsmith | No, it breaks your agreement with Red Hat. |
| 15:57.42 | jsmith | At least, as I understand it. |
| 15:57.53 | jsmith | I am not a lawyer, and I don't play one on IRC |
| 15:58.08 | rsimpkins | jsmith: ahh, come on! :) |
| 15:58.35 | jsmith | But basically, Red Hat no longer supports you *and* your friend |
| 15:58.53 | rsimpkins | I think that's dumb, and I'm going to do something about that. :) |
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| 16:00.37 | elg | what are you going to do? that's the agreement |
| 16:00.56 | elg | you break the agreement, they break the agreement off |
| 16:00.59 | rsimpkins | Hopefully something controversial, but not illegal. |
| 16:01.08 | rsimpkins | *crosses fingers* |
| 16:01.15 | elg | best find a lawyer friend then |
| 16:01.22 | elg | if you want to be sure it's not illegal |
| 16:01.30 | rsimpkins | I'll play it safe first. |
| 16:04.44 | ^Migs^ | roughly 26% of my users use Firefox |
| 16:04.50 | ^Migs^ | at least that's what the browser agent says |
| 16:12.14 | harleypig | AGHHH! GMail says my account is having errors!!! |
| 16:17.53 | ^Migs^ | that didn't seem very quiet to me |
| 16:22.32 | ^Migs^ | whoa, it's already nearly 10:30 |
| 16:23.18 | findlay | ~10:30 ^Migs^ |
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| 16:24.39 | levi | Oh, my: "intellectual philosophy in a linux environment" makes me laugh and shake my head. |
| 16:25.03 | bonez39 | I have several music CD's that have suffered the raveges of time, and little boys who mishandle the discs...Just curious....what's a simple, efficient way to copy a music CD to make an archive copy, to preserve the original? |
| 16:25.38 | levi | bonez39: If they're already scratched, you may not be able to fully recover the audio data without resurfacing them first. |
| 16:26.08 | bonez39 | levi, well, I figure I can mix and match and recreate the disc...as I want...from various other discs of the same artist.... |
| 16:26.50 | bonez39 | so let's say I buy a new disc...and want to create a 'daily use' copy to keep the original clean and undamaged....how then do I proceed? |
| 16:27.09 | levi | bonez39: Well, with a clean disc, pretty much any rip&burn program will work for you. |
| 16:27.22 | levi | I'm not up on what the latest ones are. |
| 16:27.39 | bonez39 | hmm I have tried xcdroast..and it wouldn't finish, ...produced errors.... |
| 16:27.50 | bonez39 | you don't know any commands for cdrecord...eh/ |
| 16:27.56 | levi | But there are probably hundreds of them now. |
| 16:28.11 | levi | No, trivia like that has long since departed from my brain. |
| 16:28.35 | levi | Hopefully someone else here can recommend a good cd burning program. |
| 16:28.45 | Jayce^ | k3b |
| 16:29.07 | bonez39 | thanks... |
| 16:29.14 | bonez39 | k3b? part of kde? |
| 16:29.18 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 16:29.38 | bonez39 | is it gui? |
| 16:29.42 | bonez39 | or commandline? |
| 16:29.48 | bonez39 | I guess gui....dumb question |
| 16:30.02 | findlay | pretty much the bbest gui for burning discs |
| 16:30.18 | findlay | s/bbest gui/best gui ever/ |
| 16:31.03 | bonez39 | I opened a launch dialogue..entered k3b, hit Enter..and now am waiting...it's still not up..not on my screen yet..does it take a while to load? |
| 16:31.28 | findlay | levi: is Linux not intellectual enough for you? |
| 16:31.36 | findlay | :) |
| 16:31.46 | findlay | bonez39: maybe you don't have it installed |
| 16:31.48 | synic | bonez39: if you're not using KDE |
| 16:32.19 | bonez39 | not installed..but will be shortly.... |
| 16:33.21 | levi | findlay: Linux is an operating system. There are intellectually interesting portions of it. The article in question was neither particularly intellectual or philosophical. |
| 16:33.37 | findlay | heh |
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| 16:37.53 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 16:37.58 | levi | It was kind of like a bad self-help article. |
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| 16:38.53 | findlay | ~maintain self |
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| 16:40.35 | ^Migs^ | how the crap do you kill a process when it refuses to be killed for some reason? |
| 16:40.51 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: with a HAMMER |
| 16:41.01 | lukfugl | -lart elg |
| 16:41.08 | ^Migs^ | man hammer |
| 16:41.15 | ^Migs^ | :) |
| 16:42.19 | lukfugl | in the absence of redbeard, anyone familiar with making curry that could give me some pointers? |
| 16:43.11 | findlay | ^Migs^: did you try kill(all) -9 <process>? |
| 16:43.20 | lukfugl | I want to make some sweet thai yellow chicken curry tonight. I think I found a recipe, but I plan on making some modifications and want to double check my ideas |
| 16:43.52 | Lone_Wanderer | lukfugl: STOP! |
| 16:43.57 | Lone_Wanderer | ... |
| 16:44.05 | Lone_Wanderer | It's Hammer time |
| 16:44.46 | findlay | ^Migs^: sometimes processes get into a state in which you can't kill them |
| 16:45.03 | findlay | rsimpkins told me why once but I forgot most of the details |
| 16:45.21 | ^Migs^ | yeah that worked, thanks |
| 16:46.00 | findlay | until you start getting zombie processes and your computer becomes possesed by demons! |
| 16:46.09 | Lone_Wanderer | The -9 is for "early 90's" |
| 16:46.12 | ^Migs^ | I hate when that happens |
| 16:46.23 | findlay | I think the demons come in over the ethernet, I think |
| 16:46.52 | findlay | s/I think // |
| 16:46.55 | findlay | did they come in over ethernet? |
| 16:47.22 | Lone_Wanderer | He spent so much time online that he eventually just transferred his personality over, and then went "Hey look, I can control the stock market. And the money in my bank account. And the navigation on these ships." |
| 16:48.37 | rsimpkins | ^Migs^: what is the state on the process you can't kill? |
| 16:48.49 | ^Migs^ | it's killed now |
| 16:48.50 | rsimpkins | oh, nm. |
| 16:49.30 | levi | "Kill dash nine! No more CPU time! Kill dash nine! Now your process is mine!" |
| 16:54.05 | findlay | http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/know.your.sysadmin.html |
| 16:54.06 | brac | [Know your System Administrator - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation (FSF)] |
| 17:07.59 | jsmith | levi: Best sysadmin song ever! |
| 17:08.45 | raventh1 | is that a real song ? |
| 17:09.21 | levi | raventh1: Kill dash nine is a "real" song, for some reasonable definitions of "real". |
| 17:09.59 | raventh1 | by real I mean has a chord progression |
| 17:10.17 | findlay | hah |
| 17:10.48 | levi | It's a rap, and I don't recall whether there's a chord progression to the underlying music. |
| 17:10.56 | raventh1 | oh it's a rap ? |
| 17:11.01 | raventh1 | okay..? |
| 17:11.02 | raventh1 | heh |
| 17:11.10 | ^Migs^ | rap can sometimes be classified as "music" |
| 17:11.17 | raventh1 | I didn't know if it was just a one liner you came up with or what |
| 17:11.27 | findlay | repeat(100,'1->4->5->4'), there's a chord progression for you |
| 17:11.35 | raventh1 | findlay: hah |
| 17:11.54 | raventh1 | that's most pop anyways :) |
| 17:11.59 | findlay | yeah |
| 17:12.15 | raventh1 | #music-nerd |
| 17:12.28 | ^Migs^ | I'm starting to think maybe java IS retarded |
| 17:12.40 | raventh1 | starting? |
| 17:12.42 | findlay | ever listen to the base line of Bach, like the Brandenburg Concertos? |
| 17:12.48 | ^Migs^ | ha, yes |
| 17:13.02 | findlay | now, there's an intelligent chord progression |
| 17:13.02 | raventh1 | yeah, not too much, but I know where you're going |
| 17:13.04 | ^Migs^ | but I did go from being a PHP dev to a Java dev |
| 17:13.25 | levi | ^Migs^: What brought about this change of heart? |
| 17:13.35 | raventh1 | I can play a bit of bach on the piano, but by no means is it permissive as audible |
| 17:13.40 | ^Migs^ | I think an even more common chord progression is 1->6->4->5 |
| 17:14.07 | raventh1 | ^Migs^: I don't listen to enough pop these days to know ;) |
| 17:14.16 | ^Migs^ | because I have, like, 10 Java apps running on my computer at the same time, and it's like a war for CPU |
| 17:14.26 | ^Migs^ | nor do I |
| 17:14.38 | ^Migs^ | oh, we were specifically talking about pop |
| 17:14.45 | ^Migs^ | 1->6->4->5 is more common in contemporary piano music |
| 17:14.49 | raventh1 | ^Migs^: yeah, java will tend to eat your machine with virtual machines |
| 17:16.11 | raventh1 | haha |
| 17:16.37 | raventh1 | I'm finally able to play Chopin's Prelude #4 so that it's listenable :) |
| 17:17.28 | raventh1 | 1-3 are pretty insane, 2 isn't that bad, but it's still difficult for me. |
| 17:18.06 | findlay | Chopin pretty much rocks the piano |
| 17:18.20 | raventh1 | ya |
| 17:19.12 | raventh1 | I think 23 or 22 is the one Barry manalow (sp?) played |
| 17:19.19 | raventh1 | and popularized it a bit |
| 17:20.00 | lukfugl | MAnilow |
| 17:20.06 | lukfugl | s/MA/Ma/ |
| 17:21.40 | raventh1 | yeah wasn't sure |
| 17:21.44 | *** join/#utah Keighvin (n=ptomlins@kei.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:22.52 | raventh1 | I actually just started playing Piano this year too, I'd learned tons of theory, and other instruments, and had been taught the basics of where middle C was and other basic things |
| 17:23.11 | raventh1 | but to get to that point to play some Chopin, i've impressed myself. |
| 17:23.38 | findlay | should have called it middle lisp |
| 17:24.31 | findlay | or middle FORTRAN on older pianos |
| 17:25.46 | lukfugl | yeah, theory is important, but you still have to practice a *ton* of fingering to be able to tackle chopin :) |
| 17:26.37 | raventh1 | lukfugl: yeah, that's mostly why I started playing chopin, so that I could get good at playing in different keys, and better at fingering |
| 17:27.01 | raventh1 | it seems that I can get a well rounded key 'practice' if I try to learn most of the preludes. |
| 17:27.08 | Keighvin | He's a real stickler about it too, adding explicit instructions all over the score. |
| 17:27.10 | raventh1 | I'm not that comfortable in keys other than C E G |
| 17:27.11 | findlay | try the Well Tempered Klavier :) |
| 17:27.29 | Keighvin | There are a couple places in the Revolutionary etude where I cheat, though. Shame on me. |
| 17:27.38 | findlay | Keighvin: Liszt did that too |
| 17:27.55 | raventh1 | I can play Bach's Invention #1 (part of it ) |
| 17:27.57 | Keighvin | Ah, good ol' Sostenuto. |
| 17:28.42 | ^Migs^ | IAW findlay re Chopin |
| 17:28.48 | ^Migs^ | best classical music ever |
| 17:28.55 | ^Migs^ | I always used to love playing Chopin |
| 17:29.57 | ^Migs^ | http://bash.org/?760806 |
| 17:29.58 | brac | [QDB: Quote #760806] |
| 17:33.43 | raventh1 | haha |
| 17:33.50 | raventh1 | awesome ^Migs^ |
| 17:34.31 | raventh1 | For a while there he wrote a new contada (I think) every week |
| 17:34.44 | raventh1 | for weekly Mass |
| 17:34.48 | findlay | 226 cantatas |
| 17:34.50 | ^Migs^ | yeah, he did |
| 17:35.06 | raventh1 | man i'm slaughtering words today |
| 17:35.30 | ^Migs^ | although modern movie musicians pretty much do the same thing, only with more instruments |
| 17:36.03 | raventh1 | John Williams :) |
| 17:36.06 | ^Migs^ | of course, Bach didn't have advanced tools to work with |
| 17:36.12 | ^Migs^ | so that's quite impressive |
| 17:42.22 | levi | Hmm, my wife must have rebooted the computer. |
| 17:42.35 | findlay | heh |
| 17:44.10 | *** join/#utah levi_home (n=levi@c-71-195-251-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 17:45.25 | levi | Oh, my daughter pushed the button. |
| 17:47.41 | ^Migs^ | your kids lack discipline. They're running wild! |
| 17:55.14 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=redbeard@c-67-161-242-51.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:55.54 | atoponce | how to change the cwd in vim from ~ to something different? |
| 17:55.56 | lukfugl | redbeard2: curry. I'm making some tonight (very simple yellow chicken thai). pointers? |
| 17:56.21 | lukfugl | atoponce: :cd directory |
| 17:56.37 | atoponce | lukfugl: and what's the syntax for the .vimrc? |
| 17:56.48 | atoponce | set cd='/dir' |
| 17:56.48 | atoponce | ? |
| 17:56.54 | atoponce | if so, no workie |
| 17:56.57 | lukfugl | atoponce: hmm, don't know if you can |
| 17:57.31 | lukfugl | I'm always starting vim from the command line, rather than a launcher, so I'm usually in the cwd I want to be in |
| 17:57.47 | lukfugl | unless I want to explicitly move later on during the session, in which case I use :cd |
| 17:58.39 | atoponce | i'm launching gvim from an icon, so, i'd like to change it to an sshfs dir |
| 17:58.52 | atoponce | upon launch, that is |
| 17:59.43 | lukfugl | yeah. I understand the use case, but as I've never been in the situation, I don't know if/how you can do that |
| 17:59.57 | atoponce | hmmm |
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| 18:07.11 | atoponce | heh. well, using the command 'gvim -f%U /dir/to/start/in/' works for the icon launcher... |
| 18:11.59 | *** join/#utah graphy1 (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 18:16.17 | ^Migs^ | http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/11/second_lifes_fi.html |
| 18:16.21 | brac | [Second Life's First Millionaire] |
| 18:22.44 | ^Migs^ | "I relate this all with a straight face, but I still find it rather hard to believe that someone can become a millionaire through virtual-world creations. No fun and games, indeed." |
| 18:23.17 | ^Migs^ | And that's why the business world lags, when you have that attitude. That guy writes for BusinessWeek? What an idiot. |
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| 19:18.54 | findlay | ~lart perlmagick bugs |
| 19:18.54 | ibot | installs a bad bootloader on perlmagick bugs and turns perlmagick bugs into a brick |
| 19:30.55 | lukfugl | -lart redbeard2 |
| 19:30.55 | redbeard2 | ~spork lukfugl |
| 19:31.10 | ibot | ACTION tries to stab lukfugl with a spork and fails, then attempts to gouge out lukfugl's eyeballs. Success! The spork IS useful! |
| 19:31.22 | redbeard2 | meh. |
| 19:31.23 | redbeard2 | w00t! |
| 19:31.38 | Jayce^ | redbeard2 == "cookie man" (veggie tales folks know the joke) |
| 19:32.08 | Jayce^ | You will be... |
| 19:32.18 | Jayce^ | "Lord of the Beans" |
| 19:32.42 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@c-71-195-250-0.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:34.32 | graphyx | What was the line? Don't mess with cookieman? |
| 19:34.52 | graphyx | I thought that one was really funny |
| 19:34.56 | graphyx | ahem. |
| 19:35.58 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 19:36.58 | bonez39 | anyone here know how to use k3b? I installed it..and 3 hours ago, told it scan in a disc...to create an archive copy of it...music cd...it's still reading from track 7 of 10.....just crawling... |
| 19:38.29 | synic | bonez39: see anything funky if you type dmesg ? |
| 19:38.57 | synic | { io error and other such stuff that sounds bad in between curly braces } |
| 19:42.15 | lukfugl | anyways, redbeard2, see my earlier question? |
| 19:47.23 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: i did not |
| 19:47.56 | bonez39 | synic, _M_str_putnext: queue overflow: dropping a message |
| 19:48.01 | bonez39 | lots and lots and LOTS of those |
| 19:48.06 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: thai curry? |
| 19:48.33 | bonez39 | synic, I see NOT curly {} braces |
| 19:49.35 | bonez39 | synic, does this mean that to burn a disc, or read in disc contents...the system, needs to have all the CPU cycles, to even work? |
| 19:51.22 | findlay | bonez39: that probably means your cd drive is having problems |
| 19:52.16 | bonez39 | hmmmmm |
| 19:52.38 | bonez39 | could the drive playback fine....reading, but have trouble writing? I throw a disc in and play it and it sounds great... |
| 19:52.56 | bonez39 | I probably have less than 50 hours on this drive.... |
| 19:53.09 | graphyx | bonez39: audio plays great or mp3s? |
| 19:53.35 | bonez39 | audio from discs in the drive in question |
| 19:53.41 | levi | Mmm, root beer floats. |
| 19:54.03 | beandog | probably just need to fix your kernel config |
| 19:54.09 | beandog | add that one option that I keep forgetting the name of. |
| 19:54.32 | beandog | disc polling or something. |
| 19:54.35 | beandog | you'll see it. |
| 19:55.11 | graphyx | yeah that one option. |
| 19:55.15 | graphyx | its the bomb! |
| 19:55.22 | graphyx | jk beandog |
| 19:55.31 | beandog | meh |
| 19:55.36 | beandog | now youre gonna make me go find it, arent you. |
| 19:56.01 | beandog | [*] Use multi-mode by default |
| 19:56.10 | beandog | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:56.11 | beandog | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:56.11 | beandog | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:56.11 | beandog | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:56.11 | beandog | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:56.11 | beandog | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:56.13 | beandog | whoops. |
| 19:56.17 | findlay | heh |
| 19:59.20 | bonez39 | where would I get that error? |
| 19:59.26 | bonez39 | I don't see any such errors... |
| 19:59.35 | bonez39 | and certainly not in dmesg |
| 19:59.37 | bonez39 | output |
| 19:59.56 | beandog | well try mounting the CD then |
| 20:00.04 | beandog | ive always had problems with just playing audio cds, for some reason. |
| 20:00.56 | lukfugl | redbeard2: yes (sorry about the delay, I purposefully have irssi on a different desktop than most of my work) |
| 20:01.41 | lukfugl | I'm guessing it's pretty standard and similar to the indian curries, which I've never actually had |
| 20:01.44 | bonez39 | beandog, I can't mount it..the disc in the drive is blank, waiting for k3b to write to it.....once the read is done..it's reading the 10 song files...from another location on my hdd... |
| 20:02.10 | beandog | oh |
| 20:02.11 | beandog | n/m then. |
| 20:02.28 | lukfugl | the recipe I'm basing of off is pretty much just coconut milk + yellow curry powder/paste + veggies and chicken, served over rice |
| 20:02.48 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: one of the big differences is that thai curries often use coconut milk, whereas indian curries tend to use yogurt instead |
| 20:03.14 | lukfugl | yeah, I like the coconut milk component :) |
| 20:03.16 | levi | Mmm, Thai curry. |
| 20:03.19 | bonez39 | beandog, on another note...pushing the eject button will not open the drive...nor will inserting a straightened paperclip in the small manual eject port on the front |
| 20:03.33 | beandog | use the eject binary |
| 20:03.50 | beandog | http://eject.sourceforge.net/ |
| 20:03.51 | brac | [Eject] |
| 20:04.53 | lukfugl | I'm thinking of adding some sort of sweetener to make the curry a bit sweeter. I really like pineapple curry (basically yellow curry made with pineapple and complementary veggies). My wife, on the other hand, dislikes pineapples. I'd like to get the sweetness of pineapple curry without necessarily using pineapples. |
| 20:04.59 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: it sounds as if you know what you're doing with it... i probably don't even need to remind you not to overcook the meat. if it were me, i would sear the meat first, then remove it from the pan and cook everything else, and then add the meat back in at the end for just long enough to cook it through before serving it. |
| 20:05.02 | lukfugl | would brown sugar do the trick? if so, how much? |
| 20:05.24 | lukfugl | redbeard2: that's the type of tips I'm looking for :) |
| 20:05.25 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: i don't know if i would use brown sugar. maybe honey? |
| 20:05.33 | lukfugl | hmm, honey would probably work |
| 20:06.18 | lukfugl | any culturally apropos sweeteners I should look to? |
| 20:06.24 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: watching last night's iron chef america right now, the secret ingredient is a fugal favorite |
| 20:06.37 | lukfugl | redbeard2: fugal favorite = cheese? |
| 20:06.45 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: garbonzo beans, of course |
| 20:06.47 | lukfugl | that's *my* favorite secret ingredient |
| 20:06.50 | lukfugl | blech |
| 20:06.54 | lukfugl | ~lart redbeard2 |
| 20:06.55 | ibot | frags redbeard2 with his BFG9000 |
| 20:06.59 | bonez39 | hdc: command error: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error } |
| 20:07.12 | bonez39 | there's output from dmesg... about my drive... |
| 20:07.29 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: palm sugar, if you can find it, would be very thai |
| 20:07.37 | redbeard2 | check manylands, i know they have it |
| 20:07.49 | lukfugl | redbeard2: I'll try that |
| 20:08.20 | lukfugl | this is my first venture at making curry, and there are guests coming to eat it. I hope it turns out well :) |
| 20:08.30 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: while you're at it, you could pick up some hearts of palm and make a tasty salad. it would be a nice theme. |
| 20:08.54 | *** part/#utah atoponce (n=aaron@oalug/member/atoponce) |
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| 20:17.07 | graphyx | beandog: in response to eject.sourceforge.net, what will they think up next? |
| 20:17.52 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanb@oalug/member/tristanbob) |
| 20:19.55 | *** topic/#utah by Cerebrizz -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/2007/04/24/Brynn_is_Born | Congrats to lukfugl on having kittens. Who'da thunk it? | Brizz is here |
| 20:19.57 | Cerebrizz | lol |
| 20:20.00 | *** topic/#utah by Cerebrizz -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/2007/04/24/Brynn_is_Born | Congrats to lukfugl on having kittens. Who'da thunk it? |
| 20:21.34 | *** topic/#utah by graphyx -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/2007/04/24/Brynn_is_Born | Congrats to lukfugl on having kittens. Who'da thunk it? | Trusting people isn't a crime |
| 20:23.39 | *** topic/#utah by findlay -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/2007/04/24/Brynn_is_Born | Congrats to lukfugl on having kittens. Who'da thunk it? | Trusting people isn't a crime, but stealing their cars is |
| 20:24.31 | herlo | findlay: cars? |
| 20:24.42 | *** topic/#utah by Tene -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/2007/04/24/Brynn_is_Born | Congrats to lukfugl on having kittens. Who'da thunk it? | Trusting people isn't a crime, but stealing their cars is much more fun. |
| 20:24.48 | findlay | ~steal herlo's car |
| 20:25.21 | ibot | ACTION grabs herlo's car and gives it to findlay |
| 20:25.22 | herlo | cars? |
| 20:25.22 | *** topic/#utah by Tene -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/2007/04/24/Brynn_is_Born | Congrats to lukfugl on having kittens. Who'da thunk it? | Trusting people isn't a crime, but stealing their kittens is much more fun. |
| 20:25.22 | herlo | stealing cars is hard to do unless there is more than one of you or you have a lot of time |
| 20:25.45 | herlo | findlay: I'll happily *give* you my 4Runner |
| 20:26.00 | ^Migs^ | http://television.aol.com/editors_picks |
| 20:27.51 | herlo | http://xkcd.com/c257.html |
| 20:27.51 | brac | [xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe] |
| 20:28.47 | *** topic/#utah by lukfugl -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/2007/04/24/Brynn_is_Born | Trusting people isn't a crime, but stealing their kittens is much more fun. |
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| 21:29.35 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:30.05 | lukfugl | ~onjoin TimRiker |
| 21:30.06 | ibot | onjoin for timriker set by atoponce on Sun May 13 20:03:36 2007: ibot, jbot, apt, etc needs maintenace |
| 21:30.36 | TimRiker | what's up? |
| 21:30.50 | TimRiker | ~spell maintenace |
| 21:31.16 | ScytheBlade1 | TimRiker, apparently they were taking their dear sweet time to respond |
| 21:31.23 | ScytheBlade1 | In terms of minutes, not seconds |
| 21:32.01 | TimRiker | yes. what they really need is a new box. the current k6-300 runs at a load average of over 8 often. |
| 21:32.03 | ScytheBlade1 | (I think) |
| 21:32.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Ahhh |
| 21:32.09 | ScytheBlade1 | That'd be why :) |
| 21:32.24 | TimRiker | and the bot is niced. |
| 21:32.29 | neybar | I may have a k6-350 laying around... |
| 21:32.43 | TimRiker | donations welcome. :) ooh. a 350 would be sweet. :) |
| 21:33.10 | TimRiker | I might over clock it to 400 or so. be the screaming envy of all my friends. |
| 21:33.32 | ScytheBlade1 | If you're really looking for donations, I may have a somewhat new box we're scrapping at work somewhat soon |
| 21:33.39 | ScytheBlade1 | ~2GHz with 512MB of RAM iirc |
| 21:33.52 | ScytheBlade1 | (Just a horribly crappy hard drive with dead fans) |
| 21:34.01 | TimRiker | http://rikers.org/mrtg/load.html |
| 21:34.02 | brac | [System Load * 100] |
| 21:34.44 | ScytheBlade1 | That's a pretty impressive spike at 3, there |
| 21:35.03 | TimRiker | hehe. impressive? I doubt it. it killed apache. |
| 21:35.27 | ScytheBlade1 | Which is an impressive feat in and of itself |
| 21:35.44 | TimRiker | it's * 100 so that really only a peak of 15.85 |
| 21:36.06 | ScytheBlade1 | For a 300MHz, that's saying a lot though :) |
| 21:36.13 | TimRiker | 39.48 is the max the stats show. |
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| 21:37.46 | TimRiker | I've got a dual 450 w/ 320M ram that is in the queue to be the replacement. not a big upgrade though. |
| 21:38.33 | TimRiker | the smp might help on response times though. |
| 21:38.43 | ScytheBlade1 | The SMP would help a ton |
| 21:38.47 | *** part/#utah Cerebrizz (n=brizz@67.139.145.137) |
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| 21:40.06 | TimRiker | if I had a spare 1u server I could likely get it hosted at xmission's fragfarm. that would make a huge difference. |
| 21:40.44 | *** join/#utah raventh1 (n=raven@68.142.142.101) |
| 21:40.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Well, I don't have any of those sitting around, sorry :) |
| 21:42.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Maybe (maybe!) you should use ibot/jbot/etc to solicit some possible donations. They're used EVERYWHERE on freenode.. you'd probably get at least one valid offer. |
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| 21:47.07 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: what was the language you said worked well for doing simulations? |
| 21:47.23 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: U - { simulink } |
| 21:47.29 | lukfugl | j/k |
| 21:49.14 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm glad you're kidding because what you just said confused me quite a bit. |
| 21:49.14 | lukfugl | just remembering elg's frustrations |
| 21:49.14 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: I don't recall saying that a particular language was good for simulations. |
| 21:49.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh. Dang. |
| 21:49.15 | levi | I might have speculated about Scheme or Erlang or something. |
| 21:49.15 | lukfugl | set notation -- U = "universe of discourse" = pretty much everything. Then remove simulink |
| 21:49.15 | Lone_Wanderer | I had a fairly ambitious idea to create an evolution simulation |
| 21:49.55 | levi | I've had lots of fairly ambitious ideas over the years. The trick is actually implementing them. |
| 21:50.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Where each creature could pick from a large number of physiological options, each of which incurs a certain metabolic cost |
| 21:50.18 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer: I've heard of somebody doing something like that before |
| 21:50.30 | findlay | fairly simple program written in lisp |
| 21:50.56 | Lone_Wanderer | one of them would be a "brain" option, which would give them a little bit of a neural net that runs code which also mutates from generation to generation |
| 21:51.11 | Lone_Wanderer | findlay: do you remember who it was? |
| 21:52.35 | findlay | it spawned a bunch of processes and after a while an ecosystem of processes evolved where each process had a special part in using system resources |
| 21:52.39 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: Same here. |
| 21:52.44 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer: I think I read it in a book |
| 21:53.19 | Lone_Wanderer | findlay: Did it attempt to recreate "living" things, or were they just processes sharing processor time, etc.? |
| 21:53.37 | findlay | it might have been one about Fermat's last theorem or about Godel's incompleteness theorems |
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| 21:53.47 | Lone_Wanderer | GEB? |
| 21:54.01 | Lone_Wanderer | I knew it! elg and herlo are really the same person! |
| 21:54.13 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer: it was all about a cyber, ecosystem, not really a simulation |
| 21:54.19 | Lone_Wanderer | ok |
| 21:54.36 | findlay | but still interesting |
| 21:54.39 | elg | did somebody say simulation? |
| 21:54.56 | findlay | no, stimulation. You must have misheard |
| 21:55.01 | Lone_Wanderer | I asked what a good language would be to simulate evolution of animals. |
| 21:55.28 | lukfugl | elg: do you want me to email you some of my curried chicken I'm making tonight? |
| 21:55.30 | levi | C. It's the best at everything! |
| 21:55.35 | findlay | heh |
| 21:55.37 | lukfugl | ADA |
| 21:55.45 | findlay | Simula! |
| 21:55.59 | elg | what do you want to simulate? |
| 21:56.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Evolution. |
| 21:56.08 | Lone_Wanderer | Of animals, specifically. |
| 21:56.13 | lukfugl | I was doing a crossword last night, one of the lamest I've ever come across. One of the clues was for "Computer language", with Ada as the answer |
| 21:56.37 | levi | Ada is a cool language. Don't knock it. ;) |
| 21:56.39 | elg | sounds complicated, Lone_Wanderer |
| 21:56.51 | Lone_Wanderer | With genetic algorithms. |
| 21:57.02 | lukfugl | I'm not knocking it -- I'm just surprised something arcane as Ada made it into a crossword :) |
| 21:57.04 | Lone_Wanderer | elg: I'm sure it would be. |
| 21:57.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Maybe I should evolve the evolution program. |
| 21:58.37 | Lone_Wanderer | elg: The real idea is to give them brains and let the code inside the brains evolve. Maybe I should forget giving them physiological evolution and just assign them bodies |
| 21:58.37 | levi | lukfugl: It's only arcane outside of the DoD embedded computing sphere. Maybe the crossword puzzle author was associated somehow with an Ada programmer. |
| 21:58.37 | Lone_Wanderer | and then let them evolve their own brains |
| 21:58.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Or maybe they just thought "Hmm, the only thing in here that I can make fit is the letters "ADA". I wonder if that's actually a real thing. *Google* Cool, it is!" |
| 21:58.37 | findlay | still limited by computability hard limits |
| 21:58.58 | Lone_Wanderer | findlay: What do you mean? |
| 21:59.01 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: If you're doing genetic programming, probably just pick a language you like to work with. |
| 21:59.14 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: that's what I expect happened |
| 21:59.36 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=clints@166-70-63-209.ip.xmission.com) |
| 21:59.39 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: the language you want is assembly |
| 21:59.54 | levi | At one point, Ada was expected to be the Next Big Language. |
| 21:59.58 | lukfugl | assembly is for wimps. machine code |
| 22:00.04 | lukfugl | with a manual punch |
| 22:00.08 | Lone_Wanderer | That way I don't have to mess around with quantifying anything other than "brain activity", which can just be code. |
| 22:00.33 | levi | If it had been, instead of C and C++, we would likely have a lot less broken software. |
| 22:01.56 | levi | It is not at all unlikely that someone with a dated association with computer programming would believe Ada to be a commonly known programming language. |
| 22:01.59 | ScytheBlade1 | levi, I saw this and instantly thought that you'd appreciate it. "The answer is not always C." |
| 22:02.00 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1730017 |
| 22:02.02 | brac | ["The Answer is NOT always C" by Jeff Rosenberg on CollegeHumor] |
| 22:02.27 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer: a computer can't fully comprehend itself and other such interesting limitations. Your evolving cyber brains can't evolve beyond the limits of computability |
| 22:03.00 | elg | what about humans? can/did we evolve beyond said limits? |
| 22:03.21 | levi | ScytheBlade1: Heh. I like that there was one A that got erased and replaced with C on problem 20. |
| 22:03.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, it's pretty good |
| 22:05.08 | findlay | elg: I don't know, you tell me. You're the CS doctoral candidate here :-) |
| 22:06.08 | levi | I suspect, if he knew the answer, he would be publishing papers instead of writing computer music. ;) |
| 22:06.34 | elg | publishing papers my foot. I'd be up flying |
| 22:06.41 | elg | in my own plane |
| 22:07.20 | elg | jsmith-away always leaves when the going gets interesting |
| 22:07.23 | elg | -chat |
| 22:07.24 | brac | I havn't had time to check out glut |
| 22:07.32 | findlay | me neither |
| 22:08.48 | levi | Anyway, Roger Penrose seems to think that brains are fundamentally more powerful than Turing machines. A lot of people disagree, and think that brains are essentially highly parallel algorithmic computers. |
| 22:09.15 | elg | hmm. I wonder if I can use hfs+ case-sensitive/journaled for my osx install |
| 22:09.54 | ScytheBlade1 | elg, you should be able to |
| 22:11.49 | raventh1 | levi: more powerful in what regard ? |
| 22:12.32 | findlay | levi: I got into an argument last week about whether the universe could be equated with a Turing machine |
| 22:12.43 | levi | raventh1: As in, able to give answers to questions that are not computable by Turing machines. |
| 22:12.47 | raventh1 | findlay: which side where you on ? |
| 22:12.57 | raventh1 | levi: ok |
| 22:13.28 | findlay | raventh1: well my roomate didn't even think it was possible. I said that whether it could or not is an interesting question |
| 22:13.41 | levi | raventh1: "The Emperor's New Mind" is a book in which Penrose describes his ideas about it. |
| 22:13.51 | raventh1 | ok, i'll have to check it out |
| 22:14.05 | levi | And a highly worthwhile read for its coverage of all sorts of physics. |
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| 22:14.18 | raventh1 | findlay: yeah, to not think it is possible is somewhat 'limiting' |
| 22:14.19 | raventh1 | ;) |
| 22:14.39 | findlay | heh |
| 22:14.43 | raventh1 | that's comparable to accepting defeat before the battle has begun :) |
| 22:16.16 | levi | findlay: Well, if the universe is non-deterministic, then it clearly can't be a standard Turing machine. |
| 22:16.31 | levi | s/be/be equivalent to/ |
| 22:17.53 | findlay | levi: he was saying that the two aren't comparable, that a turing machine has an instruction set, input, and output whereas I was saying the universe was a state and they might be mappable |
| 22:18.34 | lukfugl | "P.S. If all else fails, go with B from now on. B is the new C" |
| 22:19.17 | levi | Well, from a classical point of view, you could imagine God's computer to hold an array of the momenta and position of each particle in the universe and update them with extremely fine time quanta. |
| 22:20.02 | findlay | levi: that was a fundamental premise of the Newtonian Universe, certainly |
| 22:20.05 | levi | But, as far as I understand it, discoveries in quantum theory call into question whether there even is any such thing as an absolute position and momentum. |
| 22:20.13 | elg | ScytheBlade1: i probably should, but on second thought it might cause problems with random software |
| 22:20.34 | elg | any program out there could be sloppily coded on the assumption of case insensitivity |
| 22:20.42 | ScytheBlade1 | elg, maybe. Remember that OSX supports ext3 out of the box too, and will soon support ZFS too |
| 22:21.00 | elg | and it would most likely be program X that I have never needed before and will never need again, but which is absolutely vital at moment Y and there's absolutely no time to find an alternative |
| 22:21.02 | levi | ScytheBlade1: But not necessarily for the primary partition, AFAIK. |
| 22:21.10 | elg | ScytheBlade1: what are you smoking? |
| 22:21.13 | elg | ext3? |
| 22:21.15 | ScytheBlade1 | levi, not for ZFS, no. but ext3, yes, it does |
| 22:21.35 | ScytheBlade1 | I know it does somewhere, I've poked with it before |
| 22:21.52 | levi | elg: Perhaps he is smoking a pre-release copy of Leopard. |
| 22:22.07 | elg | perhaps |
| 22:22.08 | findlay | heh |
| 22:22.17 | findlay | smoked leopard |
| 22:22.18 | levi | elg: Or a cleverly disguised copy of Linux! |
| 22:22.23 | elg | :) |
| 22:22.26 | elg | maybe it's E23 |
| 22:22.27 | findlay | E! |
| 22:22.28 | ScytheBlade1 | I really thought that ext3 was a default (hidden) option |
| 22:22.34 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm not terribly concerned with creating sentient beings. |
| 22:22.36 | elg | there's UFS |
| 22:22.42 | Lone_Wanderer | So long as they can act reasonably like them, I'll be happy. |
| 22:22.57 | ScytheBlade1 | I've actually flipped the case sensitive switch in WinXP before |
| 22:23.08 | ScytheBlade1 | Surprisingly, nothing broke. |
| 22:23.08 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: How familiar are you with genetic programming? |
| 22:23.11 | Lone_Wanderer | XP can be made case insensitive? |
| 22:23.16 | ScytheBlade1 | It can be, yeah |
| 22:23.19 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: not |
| 22:23.25 | elg | I'm pretty sure there's no ext3 support (not native anyway) |
| 22:23.29 | elg | maybe with FuSE |
| 22:24.01 | elg | I'd love to see XFS support |
| 22:24.15 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: is it hard to get it right? I was under the impression you just threw in a handfull of parameters, mixed in some rules about who survives, and then ran it until you got the results you want. |
| 22:24.36 | findlay | cellular automata! |
| 22:24.42 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Well, it's actually not very complicated in theory. The trick is tweaking the way 'chromosomes' cross and pass traits to the next generation, and getting a good fitness function. |
| 22:25.06 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, I figured that getting the right level of granularity in the genes would be the hard part. |
| 22:25.16 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: If you just throw stuff together, it will probably not converge on anything interesting. |
| 22:25.26 | Lone_Wanderer | And I figured that I'd just let the critters weed themselves out by competing over scarce resources. |
| 22:25.31 | findlay | unless you have serendipity |
| 22:26.05 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: There are a number of lecture notes and tutorials and such on genetic programming online. You should probably read through some. |
| 22:26.12 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Or find a good textbook. |
| 22:26.18 | Lone_Wanderer | Their physiology would be set, given certain parameters about what it takes to kill them, how fast they can go and whatnot |
| 22:26.28 | Lone_Wanderer | and their programming would change from generation to generation |
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| 22:29.19 | levi | So you're only evolving instinctual behavior rather than physiological parameters? It seems to me that doing both would be more interesting. |
| 22:29.29 | levi | I guess you could do one at a time. |
| 22:29.34 | Lone_Wanderer | You are correct on both parts. |
| 22:29.49 | Lone_Wanderer | But it seems to me that evolving the physiological parameters would be very difficult. |
| 22:30.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Much more difficult than evolving behavior. |
| 22:30.58 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think you could do them one at a time, because the way a creature behaves would have to evolve in concert with its body. |
| 22:32.31 | TimRiker | ScytheBlade1: hmm. perhaps I should change my nick to lilo then? |
| 22:32.32 | ScytheBlade1 | TimRiker, nah, that'd get you /kill'd. |
| 22:32.32 | *** join/#utah synic (n=squish@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 22:32.32 | TimRiker | :) |
| 22:32.45 | elg | ibot, nick lilo |
| 22:32.56 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: If you don't think you could do one without the other, why do you propose to do so? |
| 22:33.01 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: but we can already see, and recreate without too much trouble, the physiology of different animals. |
| 22:33.33 | Lone_Wanderer | I mean that I don't think you can evolve the body first, and then stick a brain in and evolve the brain next, because evolution of the body would require a program to determine how the body is used. |
| 22:34.33 | Lone_Wanderer | But if you pre-make a bunch of species, each with its own set of physical parameters already in place, evolving a mind to take advantage of the body you give it shouldn't be too hard. |
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| 22:36.49 | Lone_Wanderer | How do I stop recording in vim? |
| 22:36.54 | Lone_Wanderer | nm, got it :) |
| 22:37.37 | levi | http://www.aaai.org/AITopics/html/genalg.html |
| 22:37.39 | brac | [Genetic Algorithm & Genetic Programming] |
| 22:38.01 | Lone_Wanderer | thanks :) |
| 22:38.29 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Depends on what kind of physiological parameters you can vary, really. |
| 22:38.30 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: I just hit escape about 1850 times. |
| 22:38.34 | beandog | that always fixes my vim problems. |
| 22:38.36 | beandog | or reboot. |
| 22:38.37 | beandog | or kill. |
| 22:38.49 | Lone_Wanderer | beandog: That didn't work, because it keeps recording through escapes. It was the "q" button. |
| 22:38.54 | beandog | oh. |
| 22:38.56 | beandog | that might work too. |
| 22:39.00 | findlay | beandog: the worst is the ex mode of death |
| 22:39.04 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: You can just as easily have a generic 'instinct' program that runs a multitude of bodies as you can have a generic body that is run by evolving instinct. |
| 22:39.05 | findlay | you can't get out of it |
| 22:39.08 | beandog | findlay: eh? |
| 22:39.09 | beandog | whats that |
| 22:39.11 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: What was "depends on what kind of physiological parameters you can vary" in response to? |
| 22:39.19 | beandog | doh |
| 22:39.21 | beandog | see, I did it again. |
| 22:39.22 | findlay | beandog: you have been blessed not to have awakened that daemon |
| 22:39.29 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Your thought that you couldn't evolve the body first. |
| 22:39.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, right. |
| 22:39.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, the idea is to have several different creatures that all interact. |
| 22:40.00 | levi | The question is whether you're going to use genetic algorithms or genetic programming. |
| 22:40.20 | Lone_Wanderer | And, hopefully, develop characteristics that cause emergent behavior, such as herd animals sticking together or pack animals hunting in packs. |
| 22:41.08 | Lone_Wanderer | The real, ultimate goal is to evolve critters that would make for an interesting game world. But I figure I'll just start with evolving critters that do interesting things first. |
| 22:41.24 | levi | The former essentially sets up a genome that causes the changes based on the parameters encoded therein. The latter actually has a program represented directly in the genome. |
| 22:41.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh. The second I think. |
| 22:41.57 | Lone_Wanderer | The programs themselves will change over time. |
| 22:42.16 | Lone_Wanderer | And they will survive or die based on their interactions with other programs. |
| 22:42.19 | levi | I believe you will have a much harder time getting interesting results out of that. |
| 22:42.24 | Lone_Wanderer | Why is that? |
| 22:42.49 | Lone_Wanderer | You think I should just create my own parameters for the things I want and kill off the critters that don't conform to it? |
| 22:43.22 | levi | Well, you have to design an extremely fault-tolerant programming language in order to prevent 99.99% of your programs from being complete nonsense. |
| 22:43.31 | levi | (statistics pulled from nether regions) |
| 22:43.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, right. That's what neural nets are for. |
| 22:43.41 | Lone_Wanderer | if I understand correctly, anyway |
| 22:43.44 | levi | Neural nets are something else entirely. |
| 22:43.47 | Tene | or manipulate a syntax tree directly |
| 22:44.17 | Lone_Wanderer | What I'm thinking is that I'll give each species a size of brain, which basically defines the number of "neurons" in their net |
| 22:44.19 | levi | Tene: Well, your programs definitely have to cross on a syntax tree level no matter what, or else you'll never get anything interesting. |
| 22:44.39 | Tene | I don't understand what you mean, levi. |
| 22:44.56 | Lone_Wanderer | and then when they reproduce, it'll just shuffle the role of each neuron |
| 22:45.20 | Lone_Wanderer | or give an average of each parent's net, or something |
| 22:45.58 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: I think you may not have a very strong understanding of neural networks, either. That's another fascinating topic to read up on. :) |
| 22:46.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Don't they all get together and vote on different things depending on the inputs, and the conglomeration of their votes gives a result? |
| 22:47.20 | levi | Tene: I mean that if you cross programs at a textual level, you are likely to get programs that aren't even valid. If you cross parse tree representations, at least the programs will run even if they don't do anything at all useful. |
| 22:47.38 | Tene | Yes. |
| 22:48.38 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: There's no 'getting together'. A neural network is a weighted mapping of input values to output values. The weights are generally derived through a training process. |
| 22:49.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Hmmm. |
| 22:50.11 | Lone_Wanderer | So they're not actually made up of individual cells, each of which does its own little thing, and all of which when put together do something interesting? |
| 22:50.18 | levi | No, each 'cell' is just a weight that determines how values propagate through it. |
| 22:50.22 | Lone_Wanderer | oh |
| 22:50.57 | Lone_Wanderer | well that's boring! |
| 22:51.22 | levi | Well, perhaps, but the results are very practical. |
| 22:51.24 | lukfugl | levi: technically, isn't each cell a matrix of weights? |
| 22:52.18 | lukfugl | ie. A_ij = factor of input i to emit on output j |
| 22:53.09 | levi | lukfugl: Yes, that's right. |
| 22:53.42 | findlay | so, lets write a kernel in a neural net! |
| 22:54.01 | levi | findlay: Go for it; let us know how far you get. :) |
| 22:55.05 | findlay | the world itself could not contain all the programs that should be written |
| 22:55.09 | levi | They're generally used for pattern recognition, since you don't have to explicitly describe the sorts of patterns you want to match, you just have to provide examples. |
| 22:57.17 | levi | For class, I wrote a neural network that did some basic character recognition for the digits 0 through 5. |
| 22:57.42 | Lone_Wanderer | So, levi, if you were going to evolve behavior, how would you do it? |
| 22:58.39 | findlay | levi: do you know of any major ocr engines that use it? |
| 23:00.00 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer: how about pro wrestling skills? |
| 23:00.20 | findlay | oh, 'how', not 'what' |
| 23:00.47 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer: it's a behavior to evolve :) |
| 23:01.03 | levi | I'd probably take the genetic algorithm approach. I'd define some sort of way to break behavior down into a set of parameters to the basic behavior function. The parameters would then be encoded into the genome and crossed/mutated. |
| 23:02.54 | Lone_Wanderer | What I'm thinking of doing is taking a bunch of environmental factors, feeding those as input into a big mish-mash of code that sorts out what to do with what inputs, and having that code (the code that sorts out what to do when) be the part that evolves. |
| 23:03.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Is that basically what you just said? >.> |
| 23:03.29 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: No. That sounds to me like the genetic programming approach. |
| 23:03.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Apparently I still don't get the difference then. |
| 23:04.11 | levi | Genetic algorithm: parameters to a fixed function are evolved |
| 23:04.26 | Lone_Wanderer | okay |
| 23:04.29 | levi | Genetic programming: the program to the function itself is evolved |
| 23:04.38 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh, ok |
| 23:05.14 | Lone_Wanderer | So the hard part would be breaking behavior down into different parameters? |
| 23:05.27 | Lone_Wanderer | And developing a fitness test as well, I'm assuming. |
| 23:05.29 | levi | The trick is that programs in conventional languages tend to completely break when the smallest changes are made. |
| 23:06.10 | levi | So you have to somehow come up with a language in which you get some sort of behavior even out of a nonsense program, and small changes tend to have local consequences. |
| 23:06.12 | Lone_Wanderer | I wonder if you can make some genes "dominant", and how you'd determine which ones to make dominant. |
| 23:06.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Because presumably you'd want some way to keep around the good ones, and let the others shuffle more freely. |
| 23:07.03 | levi | It all depends on how you define your genes and how the behavior function interprets them. |
| 23:07.47 | Lone_Wanderer | thanks for the guidance though |
| 23:08.11 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: That's typically handled just fine by the fitness function, which is used to choose which individuals survive. |
| 23:08.25 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 23:08.30 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: If any combinations end up really bad, they simply don't propagate. |
| 23:09.43 | levi | For a given generation, you end up with a fitness ranking. Generally you choose the cream of the crop to stick around to the next generation and fill it out with their offspring. |
| 23:10.28 | levi | There are different approaches to how you do that, though. You should really read up on this if you intend to implement it at some point. |
| 23:14.06 | Lone_Wanderer | Right, normally you rely on some fitness algorithm that determines which are the best. |
| 23:14.29 | Lone_Wanderer | But when you're manipulating behavior, you have to actually observe their behavior in order to determine which is best, which is hard. |
| 23:15.23 | levi | A genetic algorithm that relies on a human-judged fitness function is likely to work very slowly. :) |
| 23:15.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, if you put things into the program that kills off a critter if it doesn't eat often enough, or if it gets eaten by something else |
| 23:15.50 | levi | You can still get interesting results out of it, though. There have been pieces of commercial software that basically just evolved a creature based upon human judgement. |
| 23:16.18 | Lone_Wanderer | then you end up with a combination between a simulation and evolution, which seems like it'd be harder to put together correctly |
| 23:16.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't think they had enough parameters. |
| 23:16.54 | levi | Well, how else are you going to judge a creature if not by its success in simulation? |
| 23:17.20 | levi | If you already know what sort of behavior you're going to select, just program it that way to begin with and be done with it. ;) |
| 23:17.49 | Lone_Wanderer | I want to judge it by its success in simulation. |
| 23:18.30 | levi | Well, I need to head home. Good luck with your musing. :) |
| 23:18.36 | Lone_Wanderer | later, thanks |