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| 08:20.56 | Sargun | ~ping |
| 08:20.58 | ibot | pong |
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| 13:38.10 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
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| 14:38.39 | elg | -lart logitech control center |
| 14:39.34 | elg | my keyboard works better without installing that pile of junk :)\ |
| 14:42.06 | QBFreak | I only install their software if I need to remap a key or button |
| 14:42.25 | QBFreak | it screwed up the scroll feature of my laptop's little mouse nub thing |
| 14:42.54 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (i=thaddeus@nat/redhat/x-b1617e6e47415f04) |
| 14:43.46 | QBFreak | you also need it to make use of the Document Flip button on some mice |
| 14:44.20 | elg | it worked at first, then refused to recognize my kb |
| 14:44.28 | elg | and left alt and meta switched for no reason at all |
| 14:44.50 | elg | so I uninstalled and rebooted, and alt and meta work properly, and the volume keys work just fine |
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| 14:51.49 | tensai | I love it. customer gets a bounce message from aol, says he double checked the address and it is correct. |
| 14:52.19 | tensai | despite that, aol says otherwise. "550 MAILBOX NOT FOUND" |
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| 15:09.13 | elg | aol is in its own little world |
| 15:09.42 | elg | -lart redbeard2 |
| 15:18.56 | levi | Good morning. |
| 15:24.41 | vontrapp | who's been to washington lake? |
| 15:25.09 | vontrapp | -lart elg |
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| 15:31.55 | vontrapp | ! isn't by - |
| 15:40.46 | tristanbob_ | anyone know what packing snmpwalk is found in? |
| 15:46.07 | levi | tristanbob_: Probably net-snmp |
| 15:47.36 | tristanbob_ | levi: I can't find that package in Ubuntu 7.04 |
| 15:48.27 | tristanbob_ | I think it is just called "snmp" package |
| 15:48.33 | tristanbob_ | let me give that a shot |
| 15:48.43 | levi | Yes, that's apparently what it's called in Ubuntu. |
| 15:48.48 | levi | apt-cache search is your friend. |
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| 15:49.07 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:49.46 | tristanbob_ | cool thanks levi |
| 15:50.24 | tristanbob_ | ok another problem - minicom is telling my my "Device /dev/ttyS0 is locked." |
| 15:50.34 | tristanbob_ | I am trying to console into cisco switch |
| 15:50.41 | tristanbob_ | this used to work fine in 6.10 |
| 15:50.42 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@dsl092-197-124.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 15:50.59 | lukfugl | ibot: I am |
| 15:51.01 | ibot | You am? |
| 15:51.10 | lukfugl | ibat: I are |
| 15:51.19 | lukfugl | ibot: I are |
| 15:51.21 | ibot | You are? |
| 15:51.24 | lukfugl | yup |
| 15:52.26 | tristanbob_ | any idea how to "unlock" /dev/ttyS0? |
| 15:52.58 | tristanbob_ | tristan@tristan-desktop:~$ sudo unlock my serial port please |
| 15:59.51 | levi | I imagine minicom stores a lock file somewhere. I'd strace minicom to see what file it's looking at to determine whether it's locked. |
| 16:00.47 | levi | That, or look for command line options to clean up stale lockfiles. |
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| 16:10.52 | ^Migs^ | http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/05/07/159250.shtml |
| 16:11.39 | ^Migs^ | might find that interesting, elg |
| 16:14.01 | vontrapp | wha? "my bro tried this and the problem he ran into was the lack of inexpensive hardware that worked on Linux." |
| 16:14.38 | vontrapp | so he'd rather buy windows and hardware that works with that, and expensive proprietary windows programs? |
| 16:16.20 | levi | Well, sometimes that makes sense. |
| 16:17.04 | *** join/#utah ekimatuan (n=ekimatua@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 16:18.11 | ^Migs^ | yeah I don't know where that's coming from |
| 16:20.09 | Jayce^ | ~lart ekimatuan |
| 16:20.09 | ibot | pours hot grits down the front of ekimatuan's pants |
| 16:20.48 | Jayce^ | -lart ekimatuan |
| 16:21.23 | ^Migs^ | this is a great thread too: http://slashdot.org/articles/07/05/06/2139207.shtml |
| 16:23.04 | ^Migs^ | at least I thought it was, given my line of work |
| 16:23.05 | elg | -onjoin #utah lukfugl the irssi will be with you, always |
| 16:25.26 | goozbach | so i've decided to wear my shades all day |
| 16:25.41 | elg | i don't know his bro, but you can get perfectly capable hardware for linux. it's not "inexpensive", but compared to the thousands of dollars you would spend on proprietary software to do what you can do for free in linux, it is |
| 16:25.43 | goozbach | and let the bags under my eyes just barely poke out |
| 16:26.07 | goozbach | and let people think I'm a druggie |
| 16:26.23 | goozbach | today I got up before 6am for the first time in MONTHS |
| 16:26.29 | elg | you are. you're hooked on staying up late fixing other peoples problems |
| 16:34.16 | *** join/#utah Migs (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 16:34.56 | tristanbob_ | levi: you are the best - "open("/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0", O_RDONLY) = 3" |
| 16:35.08 | tristanbob_ | levi: never used strace before - pretty useful |
| 16:35.16 | tristanbob_ | I deleted that file and now it works like a charm |
| 16:39.17 | Migs | okay, how could they possibly know this occurred on May 7th? http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/05/dayintech_0507 |
| 16:40.23 | levi | tristanbob_: strace is good stuff. Glad to be of help. |
| 16:41.16 | levi | Migs: They did have calendars back then, you know. |
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| 16:53.25 | emcnabb | the Hagia Sophia is pretty impressive... I went there a few years ago |
| 17:02.40 | Migs | http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/07/spiderboy.ap/index.html |
| 17:02.42 | brac | [Doctor finds spiders in ear of boy with earache - CNN.com] |
| 17:03.42 | goozbach | elg: there was no troubleshooting involved |
| 17:04.03 | goozbach | there was however, a girl involved |
| 17:04.16 | goozbach | little to no sleep this weekend |
| 17:05.32 | elg | well then the addiction is more acute |
| 17:05.41 | elg | and more cute too |
| 17:06.14 | elg | for anyone who wants a small sample of what I'm going through at the moment |
| 17:06.14 | elg | http://hans.fugal.net/tmp/simulink.png |
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| 17:07.29 | levi | elg: I so need a new MacBook. |
| 17:07.44 | jsmith | elg: Nice... reminds me of my first semester of "Signals and Systems" |
| 17:07.54 | elg | like the wide screen eh? :) |
| 17:07.59 | levi | elg: Yeah. :) |
| 17:08.03 | elg | it's amazing the difference it makes. I love it |
| 17:08.09 | levi | elg: Also, a processor that isn't horribly slow. |
| 17:09.19 | elg | always a plus |
| 17:09.36 | levi | And, although I think seeing a dataflow program drawn out like a circuit diagram is kind of cool, building circuit diagrams as graphics is incredibly tedious. |
| 17:09.44 | levi | I feel for you. |
| 17:10.13 | elg | me too ;-) |
| 17:10.20 | levi | The electronics design people invented a text notation for describing circuits for a reason. |
| 17:10.24 | elg | i'm getting close though. should finish today I think |
| 17:10.37 | elg | then I can send this thing in to get its keyboard fixed |
| 17:10.45 | levi | I should say, 'text notations' instead of 'a text notation'. |
| 17:10.58 | levi | What happened to the keyboard? |
| 17:11.37 | elg | wed afternoon I put it to sleep and when I got home and turned it on the keyboard and trackpad were off |
| 17:11.41 | elg | as in not working |
| 17:12.03 | elg | it's a hardware problem. external (USB) keyboard and mouse work fine, which is how i'm getting by |
| 17:12.38 | elg | this is of course the one week in the semester when I absolutely have to have this laptop (and can't use my old ibook) |
| 17:12.44 | elg | because of simulink |
| 17:12.51 | elg | -lart proprietary software |
| 17:18.12 | Lone_Wanderer | ~random |
| 17:18.17 | elg | ~rlart |
| 17:18.19 | ibot | slaps eco around with a large trout |
| 17:18.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, Firefox loses. |
| 17:19.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Someone suggest another browser to use on a Mac that is speedier than molasses? |
| 17:19.21 | lukfugl | ~random |
| 17:19.35 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: why does firefox lose? |
| 17:19.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Because it's not speedier than molasses. |
| 17:19.55 | elg | seems fast enough to me |
| 17:19.56 | levi | I use Safari and Camino. |
| 17:20.06 | jsmith | Camino for me |
| 17:20.07 | levi | Camino is the mozilla rendering engine in a Cocoa app. |
| 17:20.17 | elg | i use firefox |
| 17:20.18 | jsmith | (when I'm in OS X, which isn't very often) |
| 17:20.21 | elg | and safari for rss feeds |
| 17:20.27 | levi | You can also try Opera. |
| 17:20.36 | Lone_Wanderer | Does Camino have tabs? |
| 17:20.42 | levi | Yes. |
| 17:20.54 | elg | it's pitiful, but safari's rss is the best I've come across even among rss-specific apps |
| 17:20.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Does it have a sexy hood ornament? |
| 17:20.58 | elg | (free, of course) |
| 17:21.03 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: I think you should use IE |
| 17:22.21 | levi | I use google reader for reading RSS feeds. |
| 17:22.54 | elg | (let me amend, free as in beer or included in the OS, as is safari :) |
| 17:23.02 | elg | and that goes for linux and web-based ones too |
| 17:23.13 | elg | safari rss is in fact one of the magic trio that keeps me in osx |
| 17:23.17 | elg | it's a pitiful state |
| 17:23.36 | levi | What are the other two? |
| 17:24.00 | elg | uniform and useful keyboard navigation/control (cmd-w, cmd-q, etc.) |
| 17:24.21 | elg | and that it's not utterly painful to use the one-button trackpad |
| 17:24.29 | elg | carting around a mouse isn't my idea of portable |
| 17:24.45 | Supaplex | hehe no doubt elg. |
| 17:25.03 | elg | i right click in osx a lot, it's just cmd-click |
| 17:25.05 | elg | it's not too bad |
| 17:25.25 | elg | or is it ctrl-click |
| 17:25.26 | Supaplex | fungus: ahoy |
| 17:25.30 | elg | I can't remember off the top of my head |
| 17:25.39 | levi | cmd-click, I think. |
| 17:25.59 | elg | i just use two-finger tap these days |
| 17:26.03 | elg | and two-finger scroll, very nice |
| 17:26.06 | Supaplex | but how do you right click in x11 apps running on mac osx with only one mouse button? |
| 17:26.12 | elg | linux could probably be made to do that, so it's a lesser member of the trio |
| 17:26.27 | elg | Supaplex: ctrl-click or cmd-click, we can't remember which :) |
| 17:26.42 | Supaplex | ahh. I'll try it next time I need it. |
| 17:26.49 | elg | cmd-click in X11 |
| 17:27.00 | elg | ctrl-click in osx native apps |
| 17:27.05 | elg | that's why I can't remember :) |
| 17:27.45 | Supaplex | yea cmd click makes sense. x11 has no idea what it's about :) but apple used that as the workaround. :) |
| 17:29.16 | elg | Supaplex: but don't try that. just use two finger tap |
| 17:29.52 | Supaplex | I have an older g4 ibook. |
| 17:30.20 | elg | doesn't do the fancy synaptics stuff? |
| 17:30.29 | Supaplex | no :`( |
| 17:30.46 | jsmith | I got some of the synaptics stuff working on my Powerbook G4 |
| 17:31.04 | Supaplex | maybe I'll try it again. |
| 17:31.45 | Jayce^ | Supaplex, there is a driver, had it working on a g4 ibook |
| 17:39.11 | Supaplex | just tested it. it no workie :-/ |
| 17:39.26 | Supaplex | but cmd click does, so I'm ok with that |
| 17:51.06 | findlay | how do you tell if a usb port is verion 2? |
| 17:51.11 | findlay | with lsusb? |
| 17:52.20 | findlay | this external usb drive is getting all of 1.04 Mib/s |
| 18:06.39 | levi | Heh, why does anyone care about Aaron Swartz anymore? |
| 18:21.05 | *** join/#utah hatul30 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-385461b2e9cb38b0) |
| 18:24.23 | rsimpkins | levi: who? |
| 18:25.08 | levi | rsimpkins: Some self-absorbed prick of a blogger who used to work for Reddit and whose primary claim to fame seems to be writing web.py. |
| 18:25.41 | levi | Which I believe Guido wrote off as a nasty hack, though I may be remembering that incorrectly. |
| 18:27.01 | rsimpkins | levi: Yeah, don't care. :) |
| 18:27.41 | levi | Some guy just interviewed him, though. |
| 18:28.13 | rsimpkins | Must be his friend or something. |
| 18:39.32 | goozbach | FYI: bzr on windows doesn't handle symlinks... |
| 18:39.38 | goozbach | whodathunkit |
| 19:09.44 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@128.187.138.145) |
| 19:12.08 | Lone_Wanderer | ~brutallymurder firefox for being slow |
| 19:12.32 | Tene | levi: what are your primary claims to fame? |
| 19:13.28 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd think that just being Levi should be enough. |
| 19:14.17 | levi | Tene: I have no claim to fame, nor any fame to speak of. |
| 19:14.50 | findlay | ~speak of levi's fame |
| 19:14.58 | Lone_Wanderer | -chat about levi's fame |
| 19:14.58 | brac | levi's fame |
| 19:15.02 | Lone_Wanderer | -chat about levi is |
| 19:15.03 | brac | levi is correct, st_ctime is changed by the second-level NAT |
| 19:15.04 | jsmith | -chat about levi is |
| 19:15.04 | brac | levi is programming language |
| 19:15.16 | Lone_Wanderer | -chat about jsmith lost |
| 19:15.16 | brac | jsmith lost |
| 19:15.23 | jsmith | -chat about Lone_Wanderer is |
| 19:15.23 | brac | Lone_Wanderer is too, but batteries are fairly small,..." |
| 19:15.44 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 19:17.38 | findlay | -chat about me |
| 19:17.38 | brac | me had |
| 19:17.41 | findlay | -chat about you |
| 19:17.41 | brac | you did before or..." |
| 19:18.14 | elg | -chat foo |
| 19:18.15 | brac | foo went |
| 19:18.22 | elg | -chat foo is |
| 19:18.23 | brac | foo is an unbridled success, maybe there'll be a linux theme song |
| 19:18.37 | elg | brac: I'm all for it |
| 19:19.14 | levi | It annoys me that people like Swartz, who are at least technically competent programmers, get their egos massaged by their blog-fans to the point that they believe they suddenly have the answers to everything and a central role to play in the universe. |
| 19:19.55 | elg | you mean I don't have a central role to play in the universe? |
| 19:20.21 | elg | what about people who believe that even without the ego-stroking blog fans? |
| 19:21.17 | Lone_Wanderer | who's Swartz? |
| 19:21.28 | elg | some guy that's supposedly famous |
| 19:22.37 | goozbach | pineapple! |
| 19:22.52 | levi | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz |
| 19:23.08 | Lone_Wanderer | is he a y combinator guy? |
| 19:23.09 | levi | Don't get me wrong; he's done some cool things, and deserves to be somewhat noteworthy. |
| 19:23.20 | elg | oh it's the rss freak |
| 19:23.36 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah. I met that guy. He's a jackass. |
| 19:23.39 | levi | The fact is, though, he's got no self-discipline and feels like the world owes him something for his supposed genius. |
| 19:24.18 | levi | And, so far, he convinced enough of the world that he's right that he made a big chunk of cash. |
| 19:24.24 | *** join/#utah baens (n=baens@c-67-177-5-127.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:24.38 | elg | levi: that's funny, as according to wikipedia he wrote "HOWTO: be more productive" |
| 19:24.54 | levi | elg: I'm sure he's productive when working on whatever he feels like. |
| 19:25.00 | levi | Who isn't? |
| 19:25.31 | levi | But he got fired from Reddit because he couldn't handle an office job. |
| 19:25.47 | levi | Apparently he posted a suicide note right after that, but then took it down. |
| 19:26.39 | levi | In the interview I mentioned earlier, he claims he's a 'recovering programmer' and he's got some higher cause to fight for now. |
| 19:26.56 | Lone_Wanderer | sweet, I'm glad they canned him. |
| 19:27.21 | levi | He discovered and fell for Noam Chomsky, which does not bode well for his credibility as a thinker. |
| 19:27.23 | findlay | man, I'm tired |
| 19:27.40 | findlay | what's wrong with Chomsky? |
| 19:27.46 | levi | Chomsky's political nutjobbery, that is, not his linguistics work. |
| 19:28.09 | findlay | ibot: the word for today is nitjobbery |
| 19:28.11 | ibot | findlay: okay |
| 19:28.17 | Lone_Wanderer | nit? |
| 19:28.22 | findlay | ibot: the word for today is nutjobbery |
| 19:28.24 | ibot | ...but word for today is already something else... |
| 19:28.28 | findlay | ibot: no the word for today is nutjobbery |
| 19:28.30 | ibot | okay, findlay |
| 19:28.55 | levi | This is another example of the same sort of problem. Someone gains notoriety through their expertise in a narrow field, and suddenly people pay attention to their deranged ramblings in unrelated fields. |
| 19:31.37 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@c-24-10-178-17.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:33.31 | levi | Anyway, my annoyance with Aaron Swartz has passed; I've gone back to passive indifference. |
| 19:45.08 | *** join/#utah calvarez (n=Hhhhh@lawn-143-215-204-146.lawn.gatech.edu) |
| 19:45.21 | calvarez | hello |
| 19:48.26 | Migs | Greetings!!!! |
| 19:48.44 | elg | -chat |
| 19:48.46 | brac | 30 days plus some custom scripts |
| 19:49.34 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 19:50.53 | levi | Hello, calvarez. |
| 19:51.35 | Tene | -chat about calvarez |
| 19:51.35 | brac | calvarez is attending the event framework drops, that is |
| 19:55.41 | calvarez | event frameworks drops? |
| 19:56.24 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@195.sub-166-161-154.myvzw.com) |
| 20:00.07 | herlo | has anyone here ever used http://mugshot.org ? |
| 20:00.24 | *** join/#utah Aliosa27 (n=Aliosa27@209.200.168.2) |
| 20:00.25 | levi | -chat about calvarez is |
| 20:00.25 | brac | calvarez is gone, and asking them about Capacitors! Quick! We must continue every form of flattery. |
| 20:00.58 | levi | herlo: No, nor do I think I will ever use it. |
| 20:01.54 | herlo | levi: okay |
| 20:01.59 | Lone_Wanderer | -chat |
| 20:02.00 | brac | dataw0lf works fine. |
| 20:02.03 | calvarez | hmm, Non-Sense Trigger Month? |
| 20:02.05 | Lone_Wanderer | -chat about helicopters are |
| 20:02.05 | brac | helicopters are |
| 20:02.15 | Lone_Wanderer | speaking of dataw0lf, where is he? |
| 20:02.29 | elg | -seen dataw0lf |
| 20:02.29 | brac | dataw0lf was last seen 1 days, 3 hours, 15 minutes and 37 seconds ago, joining #utah |
| 20:02.42 | levi | calvarez: Markov chaining in action! |
| 20:03.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Hmm. I should have eaten something when I left for lunch. |
| 20:03.36 | levi | Eating is generally what lunch is all about. |
| 20:04.00 | Lone_Wanderer | I had several calls to make and errands to run. |
| 20:04.47 | levi | Hmm. |
| 20:04.55 | Lone_Wanderer | If I may toot my own horn for a moment...? |
| 20:04.59 | levi | I know where my birth certificate is, but I'm not sure about my high school diploma. |
| 20:05.07 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: As long as it's in tune. |
| 20:05.23 | Lone_Wanderer | I took the ASVAB last week. 99 is a perfect score. |
| 20:05.27 | Lone_Wanderer | I only got 98 :'( |
| 20:05.33 | levi | Aww. |
| 20:05.39 | levi | Is that better than mheath's score? |
| 20:05.54 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't know. My knees work the way they're meant to though. |
| 20:06.19 | calvarez | levi, my multithreaded nunchuck skills are better than your scuba-diving rhetorical abilities |
| 20:06.21 | Lone_Wanderer | But the practical upshot is that I'm considering going active duty and doing something that requires a nice high asvab score. |
| 20:06.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Ohhhh. Them's fightin' words, calvarez. |
| 20:06.47 | calvarez | levi, your gremlins won't survive in outer space. Just give up. |
| 20:07.30 | calvarez | at least feed them collard greens so they don't explode into one thousand rainbows. |
| 20:07.49 | Migs | http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3159248 |
| 20:07.50 | brac | [Rumor: Starcraft MMO to be Announced May 19 news from 1UP.com] |
| 20:08.00 | Lone_Wanderer | nice |
| 20:08.07 | Lone_Wanderer | although why would they kill WoW? |
| 20:08.37 | calvarez | because WoW are newbies, and Starcraft are 1337ers |
| 20:08.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Maybe WoW is losing players and they're going to time it to come out when only the really hardcore users are left. |
| 20:08.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, yeah, that too. |
| 20:09.16 | calvarez | And Maradona scores a slamdunk against Margaret Thatcher |
| 20:09.45 | Lone_Wanderer | I always hated Starcraft. |
| 20:09.49 | calvarez | so, no hope for the rain forest |
| 20:10.05 | Lone_Wanderer | It was kind of the Fisher Price of RTS's |
| 20:10.12 | calvarez | haaahaha |
| 20:10.13 | lukfugl | I don't think they'll be abandoning WoW, nor really "competing" with WoW either -- different audience's and all that |
| 20:10.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I wish someone would come out with a "$1,000 dollar MMO", similar to the $100 laptop |
| 20:10.54 | Lone_Wanderer | so that someone could create their own MMO for $1k |
| 20:10.54 | Lone_Wanderer | (about) |
| 20:11.14 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: There was some drive to raise money to open-source the guts of a MMO that was going out of business a while back. |
| 20:11.25 | levi | I don't think they raised enough. |
| 20:11.38 | calvarez | Lone_Wanderer, I heard that if you go to #gamedev, you can learn how to make your own successful MMO in one week. |
| 20:12.04 | lukfugl | the only real question, IMO, from that article is "how exactly will we perform a zerg rush in an MMO?" |
| 20:12.15 | Migs | could an MMORTS work? |
| 20:12.25 | lukfugl | Migs: if it could, it would be awesome |
| 20:12.27 | Migs | I mean, think one GIANT map that you can expand forever on. Build your base, etc. |
| 20:12.39 | Migs | fend off attacks from massive amounts of players. Just one giant war. |
| 20:12.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Migs: I'm kind of thinking of making that kind of game. |
| 20:13.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Only I know that I never will because it'd be too much work for me to do alone, and I don't have enough money to pay for it to be made. |
| 20:13.15 | Migs | zomg i m makin n mmo an i jus nede coderz muzicians storyriters... |
| 20:13.16 | lukfugl | Savage was a step in that direction, but without the first M ("massive", and by extension, ongoing) |
| 20:13.57 | Lone_Wanderer | What's Savage? |
| 20:13.57 | Migs | Starcraft is already a multiplayer RTS, so that's nothing new |
| 20:13.57 | lukfugl | mix of RTS and FPS |
| 20:14.03 | Lone_Wanderer | oh, I think I heard about it |
| 20:14.12 | Lone_Wanderer | only I want it more integrated |
| 20:14.33 | lukfugl | one player on each team is the commander, builds upgrades, etc, RTS style. the rest are playing FPS as led by the commander and using the upgrades the commander researches for them |
| 20:14.35 | Lone_Wanderer | it'd start out as an MMO and evolve into an RTS as cities, kingdoms, and empires grow |
| 20:15.10 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: sounds kinda sporish, but without the evolution subgame |
| 20:15.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Something along the lines of resource scarcity forcing conflict. Or something. I dunno. |
| 20:15.44 | Lone_Wanderer | lukfugl: exactly |
| 20:16.08 | Lone_Wanderer | I figure that if I just wait long enough, someone will develop a game that's pretty close to what I want to play. |
| 20:16.26 | levi | Speaking of which, I wonder whatever came of smorrey's game. |
| 20:16.46 | Lone_Wanderer | smorrey being.... the spore creator? |
| 20:17.45 | levi | No, a guy on the PLUG list. |
| 20:17.46 | Migs | no that's wil wright |
| 20:17.54 | Lone_Wanderer | oh cool |
| 20:17.58 | levi | Have you guys looked at Eve Online? |
| 20:17.59 | Tene | no, wil wright isn't on plug |
| 20:18.21 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: yeah I played it for a while |
| 20:18.24 | Tene | levi: i've got a couple of friends that played it for a few months. |
| 20:18.40 | Tene | People other than Lone_Wanderer. Lone_Wanderer isn't my friend. |
| 20:18.41 | levi | It seems, from descriptions I've heard, kind of like a RTS on MMO scale. |
| 20:18.47 | Lone_Wanderer | :'( I hate you too! |
| 20:18.57 | Tene | :D |
| 20:18.58 | Lone_Wanderer | There is that aspect. |
| 20:19.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Only there's no real overview, so... |
| 20:19.05 | Tene | -chat about hate |
| 20:19.05 | brac | hate went |
| 20:19.16 | levi | I've kind of wanted to play it, but I don't really have the time. |
| 20:19.21 | Lone_Wanderer | But yeah, I guess you could look at it that way. You can build bases and mine resources and things. |
| 20:19.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Or rather, there's a lot to do, but it's very repetitive. |
| 20:19.54 | *** join/#utah Aliosa27 (n=Aliosa27@209.200.168.2) |
| 20:20.04 | levi | Sounds like MMO games in general. |
| 20:20.18 | Lone_Wanderer | It's worse than MMO games in general. |
| 20:20.37 | levi | I played WoW for several hours one night on someone else's computer. It was pretty darned repetitive. |
| 20:20.45 | Lone_Wanderer | WoW is repetitive in that you do a lot of hack and slash quests, but at least you go to different places with cool scenery to do them in. |
| 20:20.53 | lukfugl | Eve Online is the free one, right? |
| 20:21.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Not free, but you can get a trial for free. |
| 20:21.18 | lukfugl | isn't there one that's free? maybe it was Guild Wars? |
| 20:21.34 | Lone_Wanderer | I think Guild Wars is free after you buy it, yeah. |
| 20:21.44 | lukfugl | yeah, free as in no subscription |
| 20:22.42 | levi | I used to play 3d space combat games a lot, and had lots of fun despite lack of scenery. |
| 20:23.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, if it were more arcade-like, it'd be fun. |
| 20:23.45 | Lone_Wanderer | But it's kind of MMO-ish in its' combat styles. You push some buttons, wait for your ship to respond, switch your guns on, wait for the enemy to die... |
| 20:24.11 | levi | Ahh, so not a lot of piloting control? |
| 20:24.15 | Lone_Wanderer | Sadly, no. |
| 20:24.44 | levi | I guess it levels the playing field a bit for poor guys like me who weren't actually very good at the arcade elements of such games. |
| 20:24.56 | Lone_Wanderer | Most of the time you just hit the "orbit at X kilometers" (which you preset according to the optimal range of your guns) or "keep at X kilometers" (also preset, same reason) if orbiting is less optimal. |
| 20:25.04 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess so. But it makes it kind of boring. |
| 20:25.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Mostly it's an economics, corporation-running game. |
| 20:25.44 | levi | I was thinking it was kind of like MMO Elite. |
| 20:25.46 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: like tradewars with graphics? |
| 20:25.55 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't know what tradewars is. |
| 20:26.03 | lukfugl | ~school Lone_Wanderer |
| 20:26.05 | ibot | ACTION slaps Lone_Wanderer around, robs'm, then reminds'm to be thankfully for the education. |
| 20:26.06 | levi | Shun the unbeliever! |
| 20:26.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Heh. My dog's name is Charlie. |
| 20:26.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Come to Candy Mountain with us Charlie! |
| 20:27.05 | levi | Tradewars 2002 was an old BBS door game. |
| 20:27.14 | Lone_Wanderer | door game? |
| 20:27.26 | levi | Yow. |
| 20:27.37 | levi | Kids these days. |
| 20:27.40 | lukfugl | heh |
| 20:28.06 | levi | I actually like Galactic Warzone better, but I don't think too many would agree with me on that one. |
| 20:30.53 | lukfugl | I haven't played much tradewars, and not any galactic warzone, but at least I know they exist ;) |
| 20:31.17 | levi | There were a couple of other space-based door games I liked, but I can't recall their names. |
| 20:32.12 | Lone_Wanderer | What's a door game? :'( |
| 20:32.40 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: It's a BBS thing. |
| 20:33.04 | Lone_Wanderer | I gathered that much. Is it the thing where you pick a door and get a random thing depending on what's behind it? |
| 20:33.53 | findlay | door #3! |
| 20:41.51 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: No, 'door' refers to the interface by which the BBS software would pass control to another program. |
| 20:42.07 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 20:43.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, the food problem is becoming somewhat serious. |
| 20:43.21 | elg | you're out of food? |
| 20:43.36 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't eat anything at lunchtime. |
| 20:45.09 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: check out Vendetta Online. I quite enjoyed the piloting aspects of it, and there's a 10-hour free trial. |
| 20:45.35 | Lone_Wanderer | 10 hour? |
| 20:45.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Is that 10 hours of play time, or 10 hours period? |
| 20:45.52 | Tene | of play time |
| 20:45.54 | elg | from the moment you hit download |
| 20:45.57 | elg | hope you don't have dialup |
| 20:45.59 | findlay | 10 hours yesterday |
| 20:47.06 | levi | Vendetta Online is also powered by Lisp and Erlang code. |
| 20:47.11 | Lone_Wanderer | ohhhh |
| 20:47.40 | Lone_Wanderer | Levi knows how to get me into a game ;) |
| 20:47.59 | levi | http://www.a1k0n.net/lisp/vo-lisp-repl1.png |
| 20:49.11 | Lone_Wanderer | So how does the game know if, when I click "shoot", I actually shot the person? |
| 20:49.57 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: you have a random chance of having shot every player logged in, based on your and their popularity. |
| 20:50.42 | levi | The screenshot shows a REPL that's hooked up to a secret chat channel in the game that only responds to developer accounts. :) |
| 20:53.16 | levi | I wonder if my iBook G4 meets the minimum graphics card requirements. |
| 20:54.39 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: sounds like #idlerpg :p |
| 20:54.42 | Tene | I really liked that it has a "more realistic physics model" |
| 20:56.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Meaning? |
| 20:56.07 | Tene | It understands inertia and such, so you continue to move when you turn off your engine, which is surprisingly rare in the space sim games I've played. |
| 20:56.28 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh |
| 20:56.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Eve has a good physics engine |
| 20:56.36 | Tene | i.e. turn around to shoot behind you while continuing to fly "forward" |
| 20:56.40 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 20:56.47 | Tene | I haven't actually tried eve yet. |
| 20:56.54 | Lone_Wanderer | you can ram other ships, and it keeps track of your relative size when you do so |
| 20:57.04 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm not sure if firing your guns affects your velocity or not |
| 20:57.04 | Tene | *nod* |
| 21:00.24 | Migs | my friend just said he'd buy me a giant steak dinner if I can beat him once in Warcraft 3 |
| 21:00.42 | Lone_Wanderer | I'll beat him in it. |
| 21:00.48 | Lone_Wanderer | We have to be in the same room though. |
| 21:01.51 | mheath | This is going to sound odd, but does anyone here do any workouts at a gym? Specifically on an elliptical machine or bicycle? |
| 21:02.22 | levi | I've done workouts at a gym before on their 'bicycles'. |
| 21:02.39 | levi | I also have a resistance trainer for my real bicycle that I use sometimes during the winter. |
| 21:03.02 | mheath | How hard would it be for one to burn ~225 calories in 12 minutes on a bike or ellyptical machine? |
| 21:03.19 | mheath | Is that something that is difficult at all for someone who is in pretty decent cardio health? |
| 21:04.44 | levi | 12 minutes is a pretty short amount of time. |
| 21:05.45 | mheath | I'm looking at the Navy PFA options. FOr my weight, I have to burn around 220 calories in 12 minutes to pass the PFA on a bike or an ellyptical machine. |
| 21:06.10 | mheath | My hope is, I can get to the point where I can pass a PFA through one of the alternate options |
| 21:06.12 | Tene | "PFA"? |
| 21:06.14 | mheath | And stay in the Navy. |
| 21:06.21 | levi | There are bikes at some gyms that will estimate how many calories you've burned. |
| 21:06.22 | mheath | Tene: Physical Fitness Assessment. |
| 21:06.32 | mheath | levi: I know that. Thats what their measurement is. |
| 21:06.43 | levi | http://www.nutristrategy.com/fitness/cycling.htm |
| 21:06.43 | brac | [Cycling - Calories Burned Bike Riding] |
| 21:06.54 | Migs | why do you have to be in the same room, Lone_Wanderer? |
| 21:07.07 | mheath | YOu do it on one of their approved bikes or elliptical machines, and you have toburn X number of calories according to the machine. |
| 21:07.07 | Lone_Wanderer | That's the only way I'll be able to beat him. |
| 21:07.17 | Migs | ? |
| 21:07.21 | levi | It's been long enough since I've used one that I don't recall how hard I'd have to work to burn that many calories. |
| 21:08.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Migs: nm, I'm being dumb. |
| 21:08.25 | Migs | were you trying to imply you'd beat him physically while playing, to give yourself the advantage? |
| 21:08.31 | levi | mheath: If you practice a bit, you should be able to attain that. 12 minutes feels like an awfully long time on a stationary bike, though. |
| 21:08.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Migs: yes. |
| 21:09.08 | Migs | k. Obscure. |
| 21:09.10 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: 225 calories is kind of a lot. |
| 21:09.15 | mheath | levi: WOw. Thats under "Bicycling, stationary, very vigorous effort" |
| 21:09.27 | Lone_Wanderer | btw mheath, may I ask what your AFQT score on the ASVAB was? |
| 21:09.29 | mheath | but thats under for an hour. Maybe it wouldn't feel like very vigorous effort for less time. |
| 21:09.35 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: 98. |
| 21:09.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Cool, me too. |
| 21:10.40 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: hehe, thinking about joining? |
| 21:10.56 | Lone_Wanderer | Not the Navy, no. |
| 21:11.02 | mheath | Which? |
| 21:11.11 | Lone_Wanderer | Probably National Guard, if I don't just do the whole thing and go active duty. |
| 21:11.41 | Lone_Wanderer | If I go active duty I'll probably shoot for special forces. |
| 21:12.03 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: depends on your mentality. If your looking for sometthing career-oriented, I'd actually recommend the program I'm in right now. |
| 21:12.22 | Lone_Wanderer | I know you would ;) |
| 21:12.29 | mheath | If your gungho and just want to go shoot stuff, do whatever the hell you want :P |
| 21:12.34 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: No, this program really sucks. |
| 21:12.46 | mheath | But is very good in the long run |
| 21:12.53 | Lone_Wanderer | I just want money for school, basically. |
| 21:13.01 | Lone_Wanderer | And am willing to get shot at to get it. |
| 21:13.08 | mheath | Former navy nukes easily make ~$80,000 starting salaries |
| 21:13.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Yes, I recall this fact from our earlier conversations :p |
| 21:13.40 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: THe Navy training I'm ggetting earns me a bachelors. |
| 21:13.51 | mheath | Stupid typos. Theres insane lag -my friend is downloading World of Warcraft. |
| 21:13.52 | Lone_Wanderer | However, I have no desire whatsoever to do that kind of work. |
| 21:14.18 | mheath | I'm halfway through A school and I've held a > 3.7 GPA the entire time! |
| 21:14.44 | Lone_Wanderer | A school = AIT? |
| 21:15.00 | mheath | Kind of. |
| 21:15.20 | mheath | AIT covers all of your advanced individual training the way that other branches use the term |
| 21:15.39 | mheath | "A school" in the Navy is specfically entry level. |
| 21:16.08 | mheath | Thouhg Nuke A school is much more rigorous than any other A school |
| 21:16.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Of course. |
| 21:16.54 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: I'm not joking |
| 21:17.06 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't think you were. |
| 21:17.13 | mheath | A school is technically just training me to be a basic Electrician's Mate |
| 21:17.23 | mheath | Doesn't technically have anything to do wiht nuclear power yet |
| 21:17.36 | mheath | Yet, our A school is three times as long as a conventional EM's. |
| 21:17.53 | mheath | If I was doing this same job but just not on a reactor, I'd be on a ship by now. |
| 21:18.02 | mheath | As it is, I won't be on a ship until late 2008. |
| 21:19.06 | *** join/#utah nick125_lappy (n=nick@atarack/staff/nick125) |
| 21:20.03 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: To each his own, but I'd encourage you to consider active duty. |
| 21:20.15 | Lone_Wanderer | Why? |
| 21:21.30 | mheath | It's a very different life. A very enjoyable experience. A different world, a different society. |
| 21:21.47 | mheath | Give you experiences you won't ever have anywhere. |
| 21:21.50 | mheath | *anywhere else. |
| 21:22.00 | findlay | ~experience mheath |
| 21:22.02 | Lone_Wanderer | I was in JROTC and ROTC and have friends who are on active duty. I'm somewhat familiar with the culture. |
| 21:22.58 | mheath | Heh. |
| 21:23.03 | mheath | Hahahahaha.. |
| 21:23.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Because clearly, as a civilian, I can't begin to have the depth or breadth of military knowledge that mheath has. |
| 21:24.10 | mheath | Sorry, but thats rediculously naive. Everyone has different experiences, and I'm not claiming what I do or do not know, but I do know that I got mocked for trying to act like my experience with Sea Cadets made me know anything about the military. And people were right about mocking me for that. |
| 21:24.16 | Lone_Wanderer | ridiculously* |
| 21:24.31 | Lone_Wanderer | May I remind you that I was one of the people mocking you? |
| 21:25.08 | goozbach | why can't we all get along? :'( |
| 21:25.12 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: Yes. Then what makes you think your JROTC or ROTC experiences makes you any more familiar with active duty enlisted military life? :P |
| 21:25.48 | mheath | I don't want to get in an argument. |
| 21:25.51 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm sorry, is that what I said? |
| 21:25.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Maybe what I typed isn't what arrived on your screen. |
| 21:26.04 | mheath | All I'm saying is, I encourage you to look at the active duty option, if you're considering going into the military. |
| 21:26.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Because it looks to me like I said that those experiences, combined with having friends in the armed forces, made me "somewhat familiar with the culture". |
| 21:26.32 | mheath | I know my own active duty experience has given me experiences I wouldn't get anywhere else. I've made friends I wouldn't make anywhere else. |
| 21:27.07 | levi | mheath: Those certainly aren't things that only happen in active duty military jobs. |
| 21:28.21 | levi | mheath: If he doesn't want to go active duty, that's his choice. Probably a good choice for someone who just wants to get tuition money. |
| 21:29.05 | mheath | levi: I didn't say he had to go active duty, or even that he should go active duty. Only that I encouraged him to consider the option. |
| 21:29.28 | Lone_Wanderer | It's good that you encouraged me to consider it, because I certainly hadn't before you brought it up! |
| 21:29.45 | levi | Though, I think joining the military to get tuition money is bordering on faustian. |
| 21:30.26 | findlay | but levi, that's one of their main enticements :) |
| 21:30.29 | Lone_Wanderer | Except for that one time several years ago when I tried to enlist in the Marines and couldn't. And that other time more recently when I considered it again but decided not to for various reasons. And then that other time, even more recently, when I was considering it again and decided, again, not to, thanks to the hospital problems out east. |
| 21:30.36 | Lone_Wanderer | What do you mean, levi? |
| 21:30.44 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 21:30.46 | Lone_Wanderer | ~define faustian |
| 21:30.48 | ibot | Use ~dict for definitions. |
| 21:30.53 | Lone_Wanderer | ~dict faustian |
| 21:30.58 | *** part/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 21:31.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Gotcha. |
| 21:31.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh linger on, thou art so fair! |
| 21:32.31 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: I apologize. My most recent comment vis a vis considering active duty was uncalled for. I have considered it though, and I am, in fact, interested in the pros regarding active duty. |
| 21:34.13 | Jayce^ | Lone_Wanderer, perhaps then have you considered Amway? Tupperware? I'm sure we could find a few other *excellent* opportunities for you.. |
| 21:34.15 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 21:34.41 | Lone_Wanderer | I have a friend who got invited to a Pampered Chef bridal shower. |
| 21:35.06 | Lone_Wanderer | It was like a Tupperware party, only instead you had to buy Pampered Chef stuff, and everything you bought went to the bride as a wedding gift. |
| 21:35.25 | Tene | ~lart IE |
| 21:35.25 | ibot | does a little 'renice 20 -u IE' |
| 21:35.31 | Tene | not good enoguh. |
| 21:35.35 | mheath | Wow. This is rediculously insulting. |
| 21:35.43 | Tene | ~lart Internet Explorer |
| 21:35.43 | ibot | gets a hotmal account and SPAMs Internet Explorer |
| 21:35.51 | findlay | ~bzfrag IE |
| 21:35.54 | ibot | ACTION destroys IE with a guided missile |
| 21:36.08 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: http://www.google.com/search?q=rediculously |
| 21:36.15 | mheath | My choice to join the military is the most important and meaningful thing I've ever done. Being in the military means more to me than you can imagine. Nice to know you compare it to buying tuperware. |
| 21:36.52 | levi | mheath: Actually, people who join MLM groups say remarkably similar things about their experiences. |
| 21:37.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Selling tupperware CHANGED MY LIFE! |
| 21:37.16 | Lone_Wanderer | s/tupperware/noni juice |
| 21:37.31 | mheath | ..... |
| 21:37.52 | Lone_Wanderer | You clearly haven't met the right kind of people. |
| 21:38.08 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd like to introduce you to a new opportunity that EVERYONE has been talking about. |
| 21:38.21 | Lone_Wanderer | No, you don't work for me - you work for *yourself*. |
| 21:38.46 | goozbach | "you GIVE your software away, no not just like that, the SOURCECODE too!" |
| 21:38.46 | Lone_Wanderer | There's really NO LIMIT to how much you can make - the only thing that limits you is how much effort you put in! |
| 21:38.48 | levi | Some people I know are at the VP level for the Arbonne cosmetics company. They've got the Mercedes SUV and everything. |
| 21:39.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, if you can get in at the beginning of an MLM that's going to be big, you can make a lot of money. Which can, in fact, change your life. So they probably aren't lying. |
| 21:39.38 | findlay | ugh |
| 21:39.43 | goozbach | "the best part is, when you give your sourcecode away, if anyone makes changes to it, and releases it, you get those too!" |
| 21:39.47 | findlay | keep your dirty money |
| 21:40.04 | Lone_Wanderer | MLM money is dirty? |
| 21:40.08 | findlay | yes |
| 21:40.10 | goozbach | ~dirty ape findlay |
| 21:40.13 | Lone_Wanderer | (Have we had this conversation before? If we have we can just stop now.) |
| 21:40.21 | findlay | no!!!1 |
| 21:40.25 | findlay | :) |
| 21:41.07 | goozbach | ibot: dirty ape $sjansen is <action> places $sjansen in a small box and sends $sjansen far into the future to witness the next iteration of evolution |
| 21:41.09 | ibot | goozbach: okay |
| 21:41.13 | goozbach | ~dirty ape findlay |
| 21:41.15 | ibot | ACTION places findlay in a small box and sends findlay far into the future to witness the next iteration of evolution |
| 21:41.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay. MLM money is not dirty. The MLM strategy blah blah blah, it's all in how you implement it, blah blah, only really gets bad when people get taken advantage of, blah blah, if you have a good product that's really what's important anyway. |
| 21:41.45 | findlay | still I'd feel disgusted participating in mlm |
| 21:42.08 | Lone_Wanderer | Well that's fine for you, but it doesn't make the model itself dirty. |
| 21:42.29 | findlay | well, it's pretty questionable |
| 21:42.43 | Lone_Wanderer | No, it's not, really. |
| 21:42.53 | findlay | yes, it is, really |
| 21:42.59 | goozbach | ok time for this little gooz to go home |
| 21:43.01 | Lone_Wanderer | It is often used to sell shoddy good, but shoddy goods are sold under several marketing strategies. |
| 21:43.03 | goozbach | and ride his bike |
| 21:43.05 | Lone_Wanderer | later gooz |
| 21:43.15 | findlay | it doesn't matter what you're selling |
| 21:43.16 | Lone_Wanderer | shoddy goods* |
| 21:43.22 | findlay | that's not what is questionable |
| 21:43.30 | goozbach | you can get shoddy goods anywhere |
| 21:43.31 | Lone_Wanderer | What is then? |
| 21:43.39 | findlay | the pyramid part |
| 21:43.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I've got plenty of shoddy goods for sale if anyone wants them. |
| 21:43.45 | findlay | that's just disgusting |
| 21:43.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Why? |
| 21:44.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Many, many businesses do that. |
| 21:44.10 | Lone_Wanderer | Especially sales-oriented businesses. |
| 21:44.28 | findlay | I think it is fundamentally unethical |
| 21:44.54 | Lone_Wanderer | When a manager's team members make sales, the manager often gets bonuses. When a team of managers under a higher-level manager makes goals, the higher-level manager often gets a bonus. |
| 21:45.11 | Lone_Wanderer | Filter that all the way up to the CEO and you've got "pyramid schemes" in nearly every business on earth. |
| 21:45.19 | goozbach | I make money when my company make money |
| 21:45.28 | Lone_Wanderer | MLMs just make it so that anyone can become an "employee". |
| 21:45.33 | findlay | still unethical |
| 21:45.37 | Lone_Wanderer | How? |
| 21:46.05 | Lone_Wanderer | What, specifically, is unethical about "the pyramid part" of an MLM? |
| 21:46.54 | findlay | because you get money without having to labor for it |
| 21:47.03 | elg | who says you don't labor for it? |
| 21:47.10 | Lone_Wanderer | How do you get money without working for it? |
| 21:47.17 | elg | or maybe you call people in your sleep and enjoy it |
| 21:47.20 | findlay | I'm not going to participate in this conversation anymore |
| 21:47.25 | Lone_Wanderer | I lose weight in my sleep! |
| 21:47.27 | Lone_Wanderer | Why not? |
| 21:47.55 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm just asking you to explain what, specifically, you think is wrong here. |
| 21:48.43 | Lone_Wanderer | (Incidentally, I make money in my sleep. I've got some money in an interest-bearing account. I think I got a whole 41 cents last month alone.) |
| 21:50.17 | levi | The main problem with MLM is that the leaf members are bound to get screwed. And, as we know from CS theory, the leaf members of a tree generally outnumber the inner members. A company that sets up a majority of its employees to fail is probably not ethical. |
| 21:50.52 | Lone_Wanderer | It is not true that leaf members are "bound to get screwed". |
| 21:51.06 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: justify that statement. |
| 21:51.23 | Lone_Wanderer | I know several people who sell noni juice as leaf members who make a solid profit doing so. |
| 21:51.57 | Lone_Wanderer | I can give you their names and phone numbers if you'd like. And product samples. They won't stop giving them - either of them, their contact info or their product samples - to me. |
| 21:53.13 | levi | So they don't have any 'distributors' beneath them? |
| 21:53.36 | Lone_Wanderer | One of them, at least, doesn't. |
| 21:53.52 | Lone_Wanderer | Though I gather that it's certainly more profitable to have them. |
| 21:53.56 | elg | people that are good salespeople make money selling stuff |
| 21:54.08 | Lone_Wanderer | elg++ |
| 21:54.08 | elg | people that are good managers make money managing others |
| 21:54.09 | mheath | ... |
| 21:54.35 | elg | the inner parts of the pyramid are the people who are good at recruiting/managing |
| 21:55.09 | elg | in the end, no money is made unless products are sold, or else it's not sustainable |
| 21:55.13 | Lone_Wanderer | If the company requires you to purchase a certain amount of their product every (time period), it's probably an illegal pyramid scam. |
| 21:55.22 | elg | so if leaf nodes have to buy a bunch of junk they'll never use, then they're getting screwed |
| 21:55.41 | elg | if leaf nodes just sell or buy stuff they'd buy anyway, there's no getting screwed involved |
| 21:55.46 | mheath | ..... |
| 21:56.09 | Lone_Wanderer | However, if the company provides a "valuable" (in quotes because I don't think noni juice does anyone any good) product and leaf nodes are able to buy and sell it at their own pace, I have a very hard time understanding where the problem is. |
| 21:56.10 | elg | for (int i=0; i<1e16; i++) printf("."); |
| 21:56.52 | mheath | Figures, equates with what I thought. Not only have I failed at two careers, failed at everything thats ever meant anything to me, people regard it as worthless and comparable to selling tuperware anyway.... |
| 21:56.56 | elg | MLM participants can be annoying. joining an MLM can be a bad social choice. but not all MLM are unethical (some are, but not simply because they're MLM) |
| 21:57.34 | Lone_Wanderer | cry more, mheath |
| 21:57.58 | Lone_Wanderer | Try being a programmer. Then you'll know what abuse is. |
| 21:58.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Freelance, even. |
| 21:58.24 | mheath | I don't cry. I just wonder what point there is for me to be around when I've failed at everything I've tried. |
| 21:58.47 | elg | mheath: when you get old and you've still failed at everything you tried let me know |
| 21:58.54 | elg | s/old/not young/ |
| 21:59.01 | levi | http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/tax_study.htm |
| 21:59.02 | brac | [Tax Professionals Tell the Truth on MLM] |
| 21:59.06 | Jayce^ | mheath, so, you going to the morrisey concert :) |
| 21:59.16 | mheath | Huh? |
| 21:59.41 | Jayce^ | understand morrisey ,and you'll understand it in the context.. |
| 22:00.37 | levi | mheath: Morrissey sings a lot of songs where the subject is depressed and lonely and otherwise sad. |
| 22:00.44 | mheath | It's not just that I failed, its that people told me that I'd fail. I didn't listen to them, I thought I was better than that and that I could succeed. Turns out everyone was right - I suck. |
| 22:01.06 | mheath | Heh, my old Mairne Corps recruitter had a $300 bet that I wouldn't make it through USN boot camp. Made it through, but not much farther than that. |
| 22:01.08 | elg | levi: "when is an MLM just a pyramid scheme" - does that not imply that there may be non-scheme MLMs? |
| 22:01.22 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: interesting article, and the "when is an mlm a pyramid scheme" section is right on, but note that even this clearly biased article uses the word "most" repeatedly. |
| 22:01.59 | mheath | They told me I wouldn't make it as USMC infantry, they were right. The recruiter, the classifier, my dad... |
| 22:02.05 | levi | mheath: For the record, I don't think the military is like selling tupperware at all. I don't believe anyone here thinks that. |
| 22:02.21 | mheath | My dad told me I shouldn't join the Navy. That I'd have problems again. |
| 22:02.53 | elg | dads have a knack for having better-than-random track records |
| 22:03.31 | levi | mheath: I think the comparison was of your fanaticism and single-minded devotion to the idea of being in the military vs. the fanaticism and single-minded devotion of people in unhealthy MLM companies. |
| 22:03.38 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: maybe listen to people who are experienced, like (say) your parents? |
| 22:03.50 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: also, (what levi just said) |
| 22:04.01 | elg | don't get me wrong, I'd sooner go to the dentist weekly for root canals than do an MLM, and I'd sooner talk to a telemarketer than someone trying to recruit me. but that's first and foremost because I'm not a people person, and secondly because there is a significant number of schemes |
| 22:04.21 | mheath | So, ignore what I want to do w with my life, what interests me, and what means a lot to me, and instead do only what others tell me I should do? |
| 22:04.40 | mheath | Heh, sounds about right, I guess, considering that not a thing interests me anymore |
| 22:04.45 | elg | no, go for your dreams and only take others advice into account |
| 22:04.57 | elg | and keep going when you fail. and adjust your dreams as you mature |
| 22:05.18 | goozbach | I wanted to be a starship captin |
| 22:05.34 | elg | listening to others' wisdom helps more often than not |
| 22:05.35 | mheath | How the hell am I supposed to keep going? People ttell me, oh, its not bad, you can go back to the Civilian world and get a great job! Have tons of interesting opportunities. |
| 22:05.39 | Lone_Wanderer | No, I'm just saying, when everyone around you says that something isn't a good idea, maybe they're right. |
| 22:05.43 | mheath | Thats BS, because I've been told that before, and had that actually happen |
| 22:05.54 | elg | had what happen? |
| 22:06.26 | mheath | Guess what? I made $6.50 an hour working in the same place I worked in highschool. |
| 22:06.27 | elg | you're not going to be successful in any career path after 6 months |
| 22:06.29 | Lone_Wanderer | If only one or two people think that, well, it's possible that they're a sampling error. But when Every Single Person you talk to about it tells you not to... |
| 22:06.42 | elg | you still have to get an education |
| 22:06.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, college might be a good idea. |
| 22:06.50 | elg | you're more bitter than most your age, but no older |
| 22:07.12 | Lone_Wanderer | And look on the bright side - bitters are a vital ingredient in many recreational beverages. |
| 22:07.22 | levi | mheath: You're barely out of high school. You're far too young to consider yourself a failure. You're /supposed/ to fail at your age. |
| 22:07.31 | levi | Failing is where you learn. |
| 22:08.11 | mheath | Its embarassing. I can't even support myself - my dad is oging to have to fly down and drive back home with me, because I won't even be able to pay for the drive back home. |
| 22:08.24 | Lone_Wanderer | It's like you're a lump of metal, and the Navy is the fires of Mt. Doom, and life is what's his name with his giant hammer, and... okay, forget I said anything. |
| 22:09.09 | mheath | Heh. Worst day of my life....There was a guy in USMC boot capm from the same area as me. Didn't end up in my platoon, but he sihpped the same day as me. |
| 22:09.22 | mheath | He decided to come into Applebees in his dress blues during his leave after bootcamp. |
| 22:09.28 | mheath | He just glared at me |
| 22:09.40 | mheath | All I could think was, that was supposed to be me. |
| 22:09.56 | Lone_Wanderer | The guy sounds like a serious jerk. |
| 22:10.03 | Lone_Wanderer | If I may make a recommendation... |
| 22:10.17 | mheath | It was the happiest day of my life when Ifound out I could join the military again |
| 22:10.18 | Lone_Wanderer | there is a thing called "reframing" |
| 22:10.25 | mheath | You all know how much I talked about it. |
| 22:10.25 | Lone_Wanderer | some call it |
| 22:10.31 | Lone_Wanderer | "pollyanna syndrome" |
| 22:10.58 | Lone_Wanderer | but seriously, dude. you're looking at things in the worst possible light. |
| 22:11.04 | mheath | I was in a pit after I got kicked out of the USMC. I didn't know wha tto do, nothing seemed right, nothing fixed. Nothing seemed exciting or interesting. |
| 22:11.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Do things suck? Yes. But come on. You're obviously smart, and motivated. |
| 22:11.38 | mheath | And now, I'm right back in the same situation. I really struggle to see the point of going on at all.. theres no future for me. |
| 22:12.10 | levi | mheath: There are clearly all sorts of possible futures for you. |
| 22:12.21 | levi | mheath: You're just not looking at them. |
| 22:12.26 | Jayce^ | heh, just wait 'till you have 2 kids and get laid off in a downturn, now *that's* depressing |
| 22:13.52 | levi | mheath: Right now, it sounds to me like your pride is your main obstacle. |
| 22:14.52 | levi | Well, his pride colors his outlook. |
| 22:15.28 | levi | He's got to excel, make a difference, be perfect. Anything less that that is failure, and makes him feel worthless. |
| 22:15.44 | Jayce^ | word.... |
| 22:15.55 | Jayce^ | outlook, excel.. just had to add that in.. |
| 22:15.59 | levi | Heh. |
| 22:17.10 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: Maybe you should see if you can Exchange the work you've already done for college credits. Someone at the Office should be able to do that for you. In the meantime, look out the Windows. It's a beautiful day. |
| 22:19.12 | levi | You have Access to many opportunities! You have the Power. Point yourself in the right direction, and you will succeed! |
| 22:21.05 | levi | mheath: Pardon us if we take your plight lightly. I, for one, have been through a period of depression as I appeared to utterly fail at what I wanted to do. I know it really sucks, and I was angsty about it online, too. |
| 22:21.18 | Lone_Wanderer | So, I'm struggling with a personal decision that I made a few weeks ago, and I need some support from you guys. |
| 22:21.52 | Lone_Wanderer | (It was on Diaryland.) |
| 22:22.01 | findlay | is it at Lone_Wanderer_Angst.com? |
| 22:22.28 | Lone_Wanderer | angst.dcrookston.com actually |
| 22:22.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, so. Personal decision discussion time. |
| 22:22.44 | findlay | yay |
| 22:22.45 | levi | mheath: Just keep plugging on, follow the advice that your father and other people who know you well give you, even if it doesn't seem interesting or exciting, and eventually you'll find your way out of it. |
| 22:23.00 | Lone_Wanderer | I was bored a few weeks ago, and was seriously considering several destructive activities. |
| 22:23.14 | Lone_Wanderer | I settled on buying a book set in the Star Wars expanded universe. |
| 22:23.21 | findlay | heh |
| 22:23.23 | Lone_Wanderer | And I read it. And it was actually pretty good. |
| 22:23.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Does this mean that I will never get a date again? |
| 22:23.35 | findlay | now you're hooked |
| 22:23.44 | Lone_Wanderer | I am! I bought the next one just last weekend. |
| 22:23.56 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Which book? |
| 22:24.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Vector Prime |
| 22:24.38 | neybar | I'm afraid that your chances for a date were already pretty slim (since you IRC and all) Star Wars will just make your bachelorhood more enjoyable |
| 22:24.40 | levi | I read a few of them while I was in High School. They were set right after the original trilogy. |
| 22:24.53 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: You could do like I did. Go into something that you thought would be super awesome and rewarding, and then find out that no matter which way you turn in that career you don't enjoy it, and then just dump it all and go into something completely different. |
| 22:25.38 | levi | I don't think he's listening anymore. |
| 22:25.41 | Lone_Wanderer | This is part of the New Jedi Order series. It's after, but not RIGHT after. |
| 22:25.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Han and Leia have kids and stuff. |
| 22:26.18 | levi | Ahh, it's a Salvatore book. |
| 22:26.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah. |
| 22:26.45 | levi | I read some of his D&D-themed stuff around the same time that I read the Star Wars stuff. |
| 22:27.12 | Lone_Wanderer | It was either Star Wars or WoW, and the Star Wars one was better by far. |
| 22:27.32 | levi | He's pretty decent, as far as sci-fi/fantasy authors go. |
| 22:27.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Better yet, where the world isn't even in jeapordy. |
| 22:28.43 | levi | The ones I read were Timothy Zahn's. |
| 22:28.48 | Lone_Wanderer | And by "the world" I of course mean "the world, according to the main character". If they're a peasant and their village is in danger of destruction, that counts as "the world" for the purposes of this and the last two sentences. |
| 22:29.50 | Lone_Wanderer | Like, why couldn't we have On Golden Pond, only instead of old humans on Earth, it's old aliens on some distant planet? |
| 22:30.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Aside from the fact that no sci-fi fan would see it because nothing gets blown up, and no drama movie fans would see it because it's got aliens in it. |
| 22:33.02 | *** join/#utah Aliosa27 (n=Aliosa27@209.200.168.2) |
| 22:33.05 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Have you read Cat's Cradle? |
| 22:33.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I have not. |
| 22:33.40 | levi | (the book featuring ice-nine as a plot element) |
| 22:34.08 | elg | all freakin' day to not accomplish what I could have done in 5 minutes in a real language |
| 22:38.09 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: The world isn't saved at the end of the book. |
| 22:38.28 | Lone_Wanderer | But still, the world is in jeapordy, which is my real complaint. |
| 22:38.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Why does every sci-fi or fantasy book have to deal with Saving The World? |
| 22:39.21 | Lone_Wanderer | How many times can the world be in jeopardy? How many new plots can we make up where the world is ending and still have them be unique? |
| 22:39.29 | levi | Did you see Solaris? |
| 22:39.33 | levi | (or read it?) |
| 22:39.44 | levi | No world in jeopardy there. |
| 22:40.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Why can't we just have a nice story about people who are living in a fantasy or sci-fi world, but who aren't OMG Heroes! or the Best Wizard Ever, and so on and so forth. I have not. |
| 22:40.12 | Lone_Wanderer | I've used the OS though. |
| 22:40.22 | levi | Well, go read it, or watch it. |
| 22:41.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay. |
| 22:41.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Who's it by? |
| 22:41.50 | levi | Stanislaw Lem |
| 22:41.57 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: I read After Life online the other day. No world-ending whatsoever, and still a very fun story. |
| 22:42.11 | Tene | http://interstice.com/~simon/AfterLife/index.html |
| 22:42.16 | levi | And there were two movie adaptations. |
| 22:42.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Now that I think about it, Zelazny wrote a lot of stories where no world-saving occurred. |
| 22:42.40 | Lone_Wanderer | As did PKD. |
| 22:43.10 | levi | One was by Soderbergh, the other by Tarkovsky. |
| 22:44.21 | levi | PKD's stories usually had someone doing something heroic, though. |
| 22:45.17 | levi | Solaris was much more on the cerebral side of things. |
| 22:47.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Right but you can do something heroic without saving your entire race. |
| 22:48.14 | levi | You would also be well-served by Vonnegut's writing. |
| 22:48.51 | Lone_Wanderer | From imminent destruction by a new, mysterious and deadly threat, which only the hero has the power to defeat - preferably because he was born with a special birthmark or because his father was secretly a member of a powerful group which was once prevalent but has now been destroyed. |
| 22:49.26 | Lone_Wanderer | ~lart Jung's hero's journey because seriously, it's getting old. |
| 22:49.26 | ibot | plops Jung's hero's journey because seriously, it's getting old. into a giant vat of herring |
| 22:49.40 | levi | Cliched movies/books like that are popular because they are comfortable. |
| 22:51.32 | Lone_Wanderer | (Snap, Paolini beat me to it!) |
| 22:53.11 | levi | Considering that formula is a Latin word, I don't think you'll get much obfuscation with that route. |
| 22:53.29 | Lone_Wanderer | Hmm. |
| 22:53.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Norwegian then. |
| 22:53.39 | Lone_Wanderer | I'll set it in the Frozen North. |
| 22:53.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Ohh, meeting time. |
| 22:54.31 | *** join/#utah Robdor (n=rob@208.187.198.179) |
| 22:54.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Or not. |
| 22:57.16 | levi | صيغة, وصفة طبية, غذاء بديل عن اللبن, الصيغة: formula in arabic |
| 22:57.27 | levi | (or so says some online translation service) |
| 22:57.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Also, when are we going to have an MMO where only a select few people get to do things that are actually heroic? |
| 22:57.53 | Lone_Wanderer | There probably is one (or more) out there already |
| 22:58.23 | levi | معادليْ |
| 22:58.23 | levi | That's what another gives for 'formulaic' |
| 22:58.23 | Lone_Wanderer | but how many people in WoW have killed Onyxia (the dragon that's supposedly really, really difficult to kill)? |
| 22:59.56 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd love to play an MMO where advancement is based on doing things that are difficult, rather than based on doing things that are time consuming. |
| 23:18.41 | herlo | If you liked "Dead Like Me", this is good news: http://www.syfyportal.com/news423577.html |
| 23:18.43 | brac | [Science fiction news from SyFy Portal: Battlestar Galactica, Heroes, Doctor Who, and more] |
| 23:19.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Was Dead Like Me... no, that was My Boyfriend's Back. |
| 23:19.35 | Lone_Wanderer | That was a good one. |
| 23:22.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh for pete's sake. |
| 23:22.24 | Lone_Wanderer | I HATE contact forms on a web site. |
| 23:22.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Just give me your dad-gum phone number already. |
| 23:22.55 | Lone_Wanderer | On a semi-related note - does anyone know how I can get proof that I'm an eagle scout? |
| 23:25.59 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: probably just visit the district office. |
| 23:26.49 | Lone_Wanderer | I can't find their address though. |
| 23:27.06 | lukfugl | UV or somewhere else? |
| 23:27.09 | Lone_Wanderer | And I can't call them to ask where it is because there's no contact info on the page. |
| 23:27.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Salt Lake-ish |
| 23:27.28 | lukfugl | hmm, I only know where the UV one is |
| 23:27.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Well I've got to go down there anyway |
| 23:27.59 | Lone_Wanderer | to look for my birth certificate |
| 23:28.03 | lukfugl | http://utahscouts.org/ |
| 23:28.04 | brac | [UtahScouts.org- Utah National Parks Council Site] |
| 23:28.08 | lukfugl | horrible page |
| 23:28.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, it is. |
| 23:28.38 | lukfugl | oh. hmm, looking at that, UV might be the closest one anyways |
| 23:28.56 | lukfugl | they've got phone numbers on the right hand side, but no phone number for anything salt lake-ish |
| 23:29.09 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah, I just called them. Not super helpful. |
| 23:29.16 | Lone_Wanderer | (closed, but they didn't list their hours) |
| 23:29.18 | lukfugl | and it looks like the orem office is the council headquarters |
| 23:29.28 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 23:29.33 | Lone_Wanderer | that'll do then, I suppose |
| 23:29.46 | Lone_Wanderer | I need to find a good curry recipe. |
| 23:30.05 | Lone_Wanderer | isn't there some wiki cookbook thing? |
| 23:30.40 | lukfugl | combination of scouts on the brain + Lone_Wanderer's curry mention --- could dutch-oven curry exist? |
| 23:30.46 | lukfugl | probably not |
| 23:30.48 | Lone_Wanderer | ohhh |
| 23:30.54 | Lone_Wanderer | probably not but it's an interesting idea |
| 23:30.56 | lukfugl | but maybe, just maybe |
| 23:50.26 | lukfugl | google says it's possible |
| 23:57.58 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@h4605845f.area7.spcsdns.net) |
