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| 01:26.17 | justingiboney | is there a way to remotely turn on a unix machine specifically a mac? |
| 01:40.25 | Sargun | yes |
| 01:40.26 | Sargun | why? |
| 01:40.50 | Sargun | .. |
| 01:40.51 | Sargun | uhh.. |
| 02:01.27 | elg | no there isn't |
| 02:01.38 | elg | not without foresight. if you have wake on lan, you can |
| 02:01.42 | elg | but you have to enable it |
| 02:07.49 | *** part/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@160.7.237.70) |
| 02:08.51 | nick125_lappy | Dangit, I forgot to upload my new pictures I took :( |
| 02:42.35 | Supaplex | bad nick125, no biscuit. |
| 02:43.11 | nick125_lappy | :) |
| 02:43.12 | nick125_lappy | er |
| 02:43.13 | nick125_lappy | :9 |
| 02:43.15 | nick125_lappy | :( |
| 02:44.22 | Supaplex | heh |
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| 04:41.34 | justingiboney | anyone know how to remotely turn on a computer? |
| 04:42.02 | ScytheBlade1 | ssh root@computer "shutdown -h now" |
| 04:42.33 | justingiboney | turn on |
| 04:42.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh, I'm blind |
| 04:43.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Yes, use WOL |
| 04:43.07 | justingiboney | WOL? |
| 04:43.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Though you have to configure the computer in question for that beforehand |
| 04:43.15 | ScytheBlade1 | ~google WOL |
| 04:43.30 | *** join/#utah dilvie (n=chatzill@c-67-169-243-184.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:43.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Hmm |
| 04:43.34 | ScytheBlade1 | ~define WOL |
| 04:43.36 | ibot | Use ~dict for definitions. |
| 04:43.40 | ScytheBlade1 | ~dict WOL |
| 04:43.46 | atoponce | !g WOL |
| 04:43.47 | justingiboney | i figured i would have to configure it before |
| 04:43.48 | UtahBot | WOL 1450 AM @ http://www.wolam.com/ | Word of Life Fellowship Inc. @ http://www.wol.org/ | Wake-on-LAN - Wikipedia, the free ency @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake-on-LAN | Wake-On-LAN @ http://www.matcode.com/wol.htm | AHH - wol @ http://ahh.sourceforge.net/wol/ |
| 04:43.57 | ScytheBlade1 | There we go |
| 04:43.59 | ScytheBlade1 | atoponce wins :P |
| 04:44.01 | justingiboney | thanks |
| 04:44.05 | atoponce | :) |
| 04:44.14 | dilvie | yay |
| 04:58.24 | harleypig | Anyone familiar enough with tv tuners to help me get mine setup? |
| 04:58.37 | calvarez | deleting emails from a POP server after downloading is so 80's |
| 05:03.12 | harleypig | welp ... I'm going to bed |
| 05:30.44 | Sargun | harleypig, sure |
| 05:38.16 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 06:20.00 | fozzmoo | Depends on what you want to do. |
| 06:20.18 | fozzmoo | If you want to be a serious photographer, go with the Nikon |
| 06:20.36 | fozzmoo | If you only want the perks of a digital SLR, go with the Canon. |
| 06:20.48 | nick125_lappy | I personally liked the feel and the weight of the Nikon better |
| 06:22.05 | nick125_lappy | I also don't like how the Canon lens that come in the kit are plastic either |
| 06:23.06 | fozzmoo | That's a common set of comments. |
| 06:23.13 | nick125_lappy | The difference in price (at Amazon) is about $250 |
| 06:23.14 | fozzmoo | The Nikon just feels more substantial. |
| 06:23.23 | fozzmoo | Another option is the Olympus E-series. |
| 06:23.53 | fozzmoo | The Nikon still knocks the socks off the Olympus models, but I think they probably compete well next to the Canons. |
| 06:24.13 | nick125_lappy | fozzmoo: I was looking at those as well (The Olympus Evolt E500 in specific), but, they don't seem to be as prominate as the Canons and Nikons |
| 06:24.50 | fozzmoo | Olympus is a relative newcomer to the lower-end D-SLR |
| 06:25.20 | fozzmoo | Personally, I shoot with a Fuji F5200. |
| 06:25.30 | fozzmoo | It's given me everything I need... so far. |
| 06:26.38 | nick125_lappy | I took a few shots with a D70s (it's my friend's mom's camera), and, I really liked it. |
| 06:30.03 | nick125_lappy | one thing I like about the canon is the dust-reduction system |
| 06:35.02 | fozzmoo | That's another thing the Olympus models have. |
| 06:41.20 | nick125_lappy | The Olympus seems to be around the same price range as the Canon |
| 06:43.03 | nick125_lappy | Actually... |
| 06:43.31 | nick125_lappy | At Amazon, I can get a 14-45mm lens, and a 40-150mm lens for the same price as the Canon with the 18-55mm |
| 06:46.16 | Sargun | hi |
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| 07:11.56 | ti`ocpi | Why!? Why do the gods hate me so!? |
| 07:11.59 | ti`ocpi | It's snowing |
| 07:12.02 | ti`ocpi | T_T |
| 08:27.28 | Sargun | ? |
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| 12:15.32 | calvarez | anybody else enjoying feisty goodness? :) |
| 12:25.21 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 12:30.22 | harleypig | sargun, you still here? |
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| 12:53.33 | goozbach | ~seen emcnabb |
| 12:53.36 | ibot | emcnabb is currently on #utah. Has said a total of 61 messages. Is idling for 3d 17h 28m 26s, last said: 'elg: for a while ours had problems in IE'. |
| 12:53.58 | harleypig | Thas'a long idle |
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| 13:42.21 | goozbach | 3days? |
| 13:42.25 | goozbach | that's nothing |
| 13:43.04 | goozbach | ~seen zerdith |
| 13:43.15 | ibot | zerdith is currently on #utah (16h 17m 41s), last said: 'Mr_butler, it's already released, 2.0a is current version I think... gentoo has it right in it's portage'. |
| 13:55.28 | elg | -lart emcnabb |
| 13:55.50 | elg | so, feisty comes with "desktop effects" that don't work for me. actually the effects work fine but when I enable it the title bars disappear |
| 13:55.55 | elg | no title bars == hard to use |
| 13:56.10 | elg | nvidia card. I'd never touched compiz or beryl before on this machine |
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| 14:30.00 | goozbach | you are the king of the echo(echo echo echo echo) people |
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| 15:02.45 | maquis | ~seen dilvie |
| 15:03.04 | ibot | dilvie <n=chatzill@c-67-169-243-184.hsd1.ut.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 10h 18m 50s ago, saying: 'yay'. |
| 15:03.10 | maquis | doh |
| 15:03.14 | maquis | i missed him |
| 15:13.14 | Keighvin | ma94lmc |
| 15:13.28 | Keighvin | Er, sorry - wrong window. |
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| 15:15.27 | elg | -lart lukfugl |
| 15:16.25 | Keighvin | redbeard1 has done that to me before. |
| 15:16.48 | lukfugl | -lart elg |
| 15:17.49 | elg | no wonder, if you paste your password into irc ;-) |
| 15:18.05 | graphyx | lol |
| 15:18.31 | Keighvin | Wasn't even pasted, it was typed. |
| 15:19.07 | Keighvin | I've got a 3 machine synergy setup going, and hadn't noticed the mouse had drifted onto a display that was asleep - one which happened to be running X configured for focus-follows-mouse. |
| 15:19.38 | Keighvin | Display didn't wake up in time for me to spot the change in focus from the Mac next to it, so I unwittingly continued to type. |
| 15:20.40 | graphyx | interesting problem. |
| 15:20.49 | graphyx | Cross machine password leak |
| 15:21.02 | Keighvin | Aye. Unlikely to happen frequently. |
| 15:21.14 | Keighvin | And I hadn't realized I'd left irssi up over on this box. |
| 15:22.14 | elg | it fixed compiz/beryl, but why? |
| 15:23.15 | goozbach | Keighvin: I saw something like that once. my boss left his terminal session open, editing the current revision of a textbook, his screensaver locked, and passed the chars from the password prompt through to framemaker. |
| 15:23.33 | goozbach | his password ended up in the revision of the textbook |
| 15:23.34 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@out.lnxi.com) |
| 15:23.42 | Keighvin | Awesome. |
| 15:23.46 | elg | -lart goozbach |
| 15:23.59 | *** mode/#utah [-o goozbach] by ChanServ |
| 15:23.59 | *** mode/#utah [+o levi] by ChanServ |
| 15:24.48 | elg | now to see what my wife thinks of the eyecandy :) |
| 15:24.49 | lukfugl | levi: dutch oven bread experiment (mostly) successful |
| 15:25.02 | lukfugl | using elg's no-knead recipe |
| 15:25.08 | levi | lukfugl: Excellent. :) |
| 15:25.17 | levi | elg: Eyecandy? |
| 15:25.36 | lukfugl | I made edible bread, but there was some burning due to my not getting the charcoal distribution quite right |
| 15:25.46 | lukfugl | the parts that weren't burnt were quite good |
| 15:25.51 | levi | Ah, yeah, I imagine that's tricky. |
| 15:25.57 | elg | beryl (or is it compiz...) in feisty |
| 15:26.18 | elg | -lart tensai |
| 15:26.22 | levi | elg: I found it to still be flaky and crappy. :( |
| 15:26.24 | goozbach | hungry, or starving |
| 15:26.27 | levi | elg: I tried both of them, too. |
| 15:26.31 | goozbach | time for lunch and to go home |
| 15:26.36 | elg | levi: crashing? |
| 15:26.50 | levi | elg: Not completely crashing, but not working correctly either. |
| 15:27.15 | levi | elg: Beryl worked fairly well, but wanted to handle virtual desktops differently than the rest of gnome. |
| 15:27.16 | elg | i had to hack my xorg.conf to get it to even work |
| 15:27.34 | levi | And eventually it would start opening all new windows as completely blank. |
| 15:28.40 | levi | Compiz was not very configurable at all, at least not in an obvious way, and I didn't particularly like the combination of effects it had enabled. |
| 15:28.58 | levi | And, just now, I switched to another desktop and the gnome panel disappeared. |
| 15:29.06 | levi | That was the last straw; I just disabled all the crap. |
| 15:29.16 | elg | :) |
| 15:29.37 | levi | I will revisit it again with the next Ubuntu release, probably. But I fear that it will still suck then. |
| 15:29.54 | elg | word has it beryl and compiz are merging |
| 15:30.01 | elg | maybe some real progress will be made |
| 15:30.16 | elg | or maybe it will still be unstable buggy eyecandy :) |
| 15:30.23 | levi | This system has a high-end nVidia card, too, and even it's got some performance issues. Feels way slower than OS X. |
| 15:30.44 | levi | Except for stuff like the desktop cube, which works nice and speedy. :P |
| 15:31.26 | findlay | stupid virified by vista |
| 15:31.32 | findlay | ~lart verified by visa |
| 15:31.32 | ibot | executes killall -KILL verified by visa |
| 15:31.37 | findlay | stupid |
| 15:32.19 | elg | findlay: did someone verify you? |
| 15:32.53 | findlay | elg: no. It never works. It never has worked, and some stupid sites won't process a payment until after it |
| 15:33.05 | elg | oh, by VISA |
| 15:33.07 | elg | not vista |
| 15:33.25 | findlay | both hateful words |
| 15:33.30 | elg | i hate it too. in fact if I were to open the flood gates of my hate I'd spend an hour ranting against it |
| 15:33.43 | elg | but right now I have better things to do. you don't mind ranting well enough for both of us, do you? |
| 15:33.50 | findlay | I'd cast it into the Cracks of Doom if I could |
| 15:37.11 | findlay | the thing that makes me angriest about vbv is that when it first came out and I set it up I gave it all kinds of personal information that I would never give out now |
| 15:37.11 | findlay | before I was more wary |
| 15:37.11 | findlay | and then it never has worked |
| 15:37.13 | findlay | I've just grown to hate it with a malevolent spite |
| 15:37.49 | findlay | I'm going to ask my financial institution if my CCN can be taken off of vbv, but they probably have some kind of deal or something |
| 15:38.03 | findlay | in that case I may want a new one |
| 15:38.21 | findlay | lousy conformists |
| 15:39.56 | maquis | question: is it possible to nest commands in backticks? |
| 15:40.54 | elg | with $() maybe |
| 15:41.14 | rsimpkins | maquis: $() is better than `` because of nesting. |
| 15:41.21 | maquis | k |
| 15:41.24 | maquis | that makes sense... |
| 15:41.25 | maquis | thanks guys |
| 15:41.31 | findlay | any time |
| 15:41.32 | Keighvin | You can also escape backticks within the command which will then be passed through. |
| 15:41.37 | Keighvin | But yeah, less preferable. |
| 15:41.43 | harleypig | I've found that $( `` ) causes weird problems ... so you want $( $() ) anyway |
| 15:41.47 | maquis | Keighvin: ah... iwas wondering if that'd work correctly |
| 15:42.05 | maquis | sounds like it cuold get messy, though |
| 15:56.50 | harleypig | Where is a decent print repair place in this valley? |
| 15:58.49 | harleypig | err ... printer repair |
| 16:00.16 | *** join/#utah Lone_Wanderer (n=chatzill@cg.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 16:00.22 | elg | levi: what, you don't think "knows more than one language" is a good criteria for "software engineer" |
| 16:00.25 | elg | ? |
| 16:00.45 | levi | elg: I object to the emphasis on syntax. |
| 16:01.18 | levi | elg: Furthermore, I don't think there is such a thing as a "software engineer" right now, my job title notwithstanding. |
| 16:01.21 | Lone_Wanderer | There is no such thing as a "software engineer". |
| 16:01.37 | Lone_Wanderer | The title of "Engineer" has a very specific meaning, and it does not apply to software. |
| 16:02.03 | Lone_Wanderer | You could be an engineer and have a job programming, but that would make you an engineer who programs, not a software engineer. |
| 16:02.30 | levi | I'm willing to let the title slide because it's so common, but when you start talking about formal engineering practices, a line has to be drawn between real engineering and 'software engineering'. |
| 16:02.44 | Lone_Wanderer | levi++ |
| 16:02.47 | levi | Anyway, I sent a lengthy diatribe to the list. |
| 16:02.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Thank you sir. |
| 16:02.57 | Lone_Wanderer | You saved me the trouble. |
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| 16:15.07 | ^Migs^ | http://www.theonion.com/content/news/street_evangelist_saves_300_souls |
| 16:19.51 | levi | I also think the people who objected to the carpentry analogy are probably not aware of the wide array of bizarre woodworking implements that exist. |
| 16:20.06 | elg | haha. http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/love_letter_made_longer_by |
| 16:20.50 | elg | levi: but how hard can a saw really be to learn to use? carpentry itself may not be simple, but the tools don't take 400-page reference manuals to use |
| 16:21.18 | levi | elg: Um, you also seem to be ignorant of the wide array of bizarre woodworking implements. |
| 16:21.42 | levi | And the fact that this is an analogy, not a direct comparison. |
| 16:22.50 | elg | i do plead ignorance, but not total ignorance |
| 16:23.03 | elg | I defy you to show me a carpentry tool that takes a 400-page reference manual to use |
| 16:23.13 | elg | btw, I worked for a cabinet builder one summer |
| 16:23.22 | elg | i do agree with you about the analogy bit though |
| 16:23.31 | elg | i happen to think it's a good analogy |
| 16:23.48 | levi | I defy you to show me a programming tool that takes a 400-page reference manual to use. The existence of said manual does not imply its necessity. |
| 16:24.22 | ^Migs^ | I bet someone could whip up such a programming tool |
| 16:24.35 | elg | ok then, how about you show me a carpentry tool that _has_ a 400-page (non-necessary) reference manual |
| 16:24.42 | ^Migs^ | that would be a fun project...make a needlessly overcomplicated app |
| 16:25.28 | graphyx | ^Migs^: please don't |
| 16:25.32 | graphyx | there are enough of them. |
| 16:25.36 | levi | I bet someone has already created some sort of a programmable bench router or somesuch that has a pretty hefty manual. Possibly not 400 pages, but I'm sure one /could/ write a 400 page manual. |
| 16:25.40 | graphyx | the app doesn't have to be bad |
| 16:25.42 | graphyx | just the ui |
| 16:26.02 | elg | levi: "don't cut your fingers off" safety warnings don't count |
| 16:26.18 | ^Migs^ | I think the idea is that the manual is NECESSARY for figuring out the program |
| 16:26.32 | elg | My dad had a shopsmith, I wouldn't call it one tool but rather several in one |
| 16:26.36 | elg | but even it didn't |
| 16:27.15 | elg | OTOH, we got a set of rackmount rails for a server from IBM that included at least 200 pages of safety warnings in various languages :) |
| 16:27.31 | levi | Well, any software that has 400 pages of manual is probably more than one tool, too. |
| 16:27.49 | elg | see now you're talking |
| 16:28.02 | levi | But anyway, yes, software tools are more complex. |
| 16:28.29 | elg | the analogy to the carpenter tools is not "a programming language", but the components of languages, many of which are shared between languages (even with differing syntax, just like tape measures can be made of tape or metal or be painted blue or red...) |
| 16:28.41 | elg | the theory is the set of tools |
| 16:28.51 | elg | the programming languages are like toolboxes with branding |
| 16:29.02 | levi | You should post that to the list. :) |
| 16:29.15 | levi | I think it would dovetail nicely with my message. |
| 16:29.18 | elg | except that branding doesn't usually require books to be written to understand the branding :) |
| 16:29.23 | *** join/#utah hatul30 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-b9aa943ad0913ad9) |
| 16:29.45 | elg | i've already exhausted my interest in it. oh well :) anyone's free to take it and run with it |
| 16:30.02 | levi | Well, if there was any sort of discipline to 'software engineering', it wouldn't have to have the 400 page manuals either. |
| 16:30.13 | levi | You could just say 'this toolbox contains these tools' and be done with it. |
| 16:30.56 | levi | Since the semantic elements of the language would have well-defined meanings that everyone would understand and know how to apply, like all carpenters know how to use a chisel or a plane. |
| 16:31.13 | elg | jsmith et al., I'm lecturing on C data structures for DSP (embedded) programming to EEs today. Anything you think I ought to include? |
| 16:31.15 | ^Migs^ | I think the users of an application should be responsible for writing the manual, not the creator. |
| 16:31.20 | ^Migs^ | and they can do that via a wiki |
| 16:31.52 | ^Migs^ | at least that's MY attitude whenever I code something and don't want to document it |
| 16:31.53 | jsmith | elg: Hmmmn... good question |
| 16:31.59 | elg | i think the creator should fingerpaint and call it an artistic interpretation of the manual, and get after the lusers that demand documentation for not appreciating art |
| 16:32.05 | levi | ^Migs^: I think, as usual, you are full of crap. Though I applaud users who do create wikis for products. |
| 16:32.18 | jsmith | elg: Just make sure they understand the difference between fixed point and floating point. |
| 16:32.29 | elg | oh they do |
| 16:32.30 | ^Migs^ | <^Migs^> at least that's MY attitude whenever I code something and don't want to document it |
| 16:32.31 | levi | Heh. |
| 16:32.40 | elg | they've been doing it for half a semester now |
| 16:32.56 | levi | There's probably a whole class at the school devoted to IEEE floating point semantics. ;) |
| 16:33.02 | elg | my angle is to give them insight into programming from a CS ("software engineering") perspective |
| 16:33.04 | jsmith | elg: Oh... hmmmmn... |
| 16:33.05 | ^Migs^ | I hate the manuals that are just snapshots of Powerpoint presentations |
| 16:33.07 | elg | vs. the EE hacks they're used to |
| 16:33.12 | jsmith | elg: That would be good. |
| 16:33.13 | ^Migs^ | all the BEA WebLogic manuals are like that |
| 16:33.25 | jsmith | elg: Man, I wish I were there to listen to your lecture |
| 16:33.42 | ^Migs^ | it doesn't make any sense. They don't even have an index. |
| 16:33.43 | levi | elg: I'm sort of occasionally tutoring an EE guy who's going to try to take over maintenance of a C program I wrote. |
| 16:33.43 | elg | 3 actually. I gave the other two last week |
| 16:33.52 | elg | you can read my slides if you like |
| 16:34.01 | elg | but they're just slides. not worth much on their own |
| 16:34.12 | levi | elg: Function pointers blew his mind. :) |
| 16:34.20 | elg | :) |
| 16:34.47 | levi | Unfortunately, the program as a whole is not a shining example of good design. |
| 16:38.23 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 16:38.24 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 16:39.41 | Keighvin | ~lart Jayce^ for good measure |
| 16:39.41 | ibot | whacks Jayce^ upside the head for good measure |
| 16:41.20 | *** join/#utah dilvie__ (n=chatzill@c-67-169-243-184.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:43.15 | ^Migs^ | man, this chicken adobo I'm having for lunch is great. |
| 16:43.20 | ^Migs^ | I made it the other night. EASIEST recipe ever. Just stuff a whole chicken in the crockpot, then add 1.5 cups vinegar, 2 cups soy sauce, some onions, and some garlic. Takes less than 5 minutes. |
| 16:48.17 | elg | that reminds me of the discussion I had with my wife the other day about floz vs. oz |
| 16:48.27 | elg | some recipe called for 14 floz soy sauce |
| 16:48.52 | elg | then the author wanted to change it to take out the "fl" because it might confuse people |
| 16:49.03 | ^Migs^ | 14 oz soy sauce is even more confusing |
| 16:49.10 | elg | exactly |
| 16:49.12 | ^Migs^ | why not just go with traditional measurements? |
| 16:49.15 | lukfugl | how about 1 3/4 cups? |
| 16:49.22 | lukfugl | *that's* less confusing |
| 16:49.29 | ^Migs^ | that author's a retard |
| 16:49.32 | elg | so it took some runarounds to get her to understand the difference between oz and floz |
| 16:49.39 | ^Migs^ | couldn't have possibly been a decent recipe |
| 16:49.47 | elg | ^Migs^: it's probably a common size for a bottle. she probably just buys that size bottle |
| 16:49.53 | elg | so she looked on the bottle and put 14 floz |
| 16:49.55 | ^Migs^ | no, 16 oz is common |
| 16:50.01 | elg | so anyway, in the end I did 1 3/4 cups |
| 16:50.02 | ^Migs^ | you're probably right though |
| 16:50.17 | elg | ^Migs^: well that's exactly the problem with relying on can/bottle sizes |
| 16:50.18 | elg | they change |
| 16:50.18 | ^Migs^ | I usually see measurements more as guidelines |
| 16:50.32 | lukfugl | ping vontrapp |
| 16:50.39 | ^Migs^ | I like to mess around and experiment |
| 16:50.44 | elg | lukfugl: did you know that off the top of your head, or did you cheat and use uints? :) |
| 16:50.46 | harleypig | anyone familiar with hplip on gentoo? |
| 16:50.55 | ^Migs^ | usually my experimentations come out pretty well. About 5% of the time they turn out awful, though |
| 16:51.04 | elg | during the discussion I learned that 1 fl oz is 2 tablespoons |
| 16:51.06 | lukfugl | 8 floz = 1 cup |
| 16:51.09 | lukfugl | everyone knows that :) |
| 16:51.18 | ^Migs^ | I didn't, because flozs are dumb |
| 16:51.35 | ^Migs^ | I do know 4 tablespoons = 1/4 cup though |
| 16:51.47 | elg | lukfugl: true |
| 16:51.53 | elg | everyone but migs :) |
| 16:51.58 | ^Migs^ | yeah, why didn't I know that? |
| 16:52.02 | lukfugl | I also know that one "small" scoop of ice cream at Baskin Robbins is ~28oz |
| 16:52.09 | ^Migs^ | maybe it's just never come up. All the recipes I see never use flozs |
| 16:52.10 | lukfugl | but that's only cause I worked there |
| 16:52.21 | ^Migs^ | that sounds like a lot of ice cream |
| 16:52.29 | elg | the biggest tragedy of all is the name "fluid ounce", of course |
| 16:52.30 | lukfugl | and 3tsp = 1tbsp |
| 16:52.57 | lukfugl | hmm. maybe that was 28 something else then |
| 16:53.07 | ^Migs^ | no, that might be right |
| 16:53.08 | lukfugl | 28 grams doesn't sound right either though |
| 16:53.19 | elg | esp. since 1 floz is 1.0431756 oz of water (ideal) |
| 16:53.40 | ^Migs^ | that brought back nightmares of chemistry classes |
| 16:53.43 | lukfugl | I just remember the scale was supposed to say ~28 while we were learning to scoop. Once you'd learned to eyeball the right size, you don't use the scale no more :) |
| 16:53.58 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 16:54.07 | ^Migs^ | did you get free ice cream while working there? |
| 16:55.30 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: yeah. not unlimited, and not to take home, but a small cone or a shake here and there while working (assuming it was slow) |
| 16:56.05 | lukfugl | that was at the management's discretion, so it will definitely vary by store, if you're hinging a decision about whether to work there on that :) |
| 16:56.47 | ^Migs^ | that's a good deal |
| 16:56.58 | ^Migs^ | I wish I had an ice cream parlor job |
| 16:57.05 | ^Migs^ | had = past tense |
| 16:57.08 | ^Migs^ | had had |
| 16:57.29 | lukfugl | yeah, it was an optimal (in my opinion) teenager job |
| 16:57.34 | ^Migs^ | I always thought "had had" looked a little strange on paper |
| 16:57.40 | ^Migs^ | I had a job delivering drugs as a teenager |
| 16:57.45 | ^Migs^ | for the Medicine Shoppe :) |
| 16:58.15 | lukfugl | I'm glad you clarified ;) |
| 16:58.41 | ^Migs^ | I always used to get a kick out of telling people that |
| 16:59.25 | ^Migs^ | in the 2 or so years I had that job, I only got ONE tip |
| 17:00.01 | ^Migs^ | but I got paid $2 for delivery. On a really good day, I could rake in $15/hr |
| 17:00.27 | lukfugl | not bad |
| 17:00.38 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I thought it was pretty sweet for a part-time job |
| 17:00.58 | ^Migs^ | of course, I had to pay for my own gas, so it wasn't THAT great, especially with those customers who lived clear out in the boondocks, or up the canyon |
| 17:06.48 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (i=UNKNOWN@sp1.cotse.net) |
| 17:07.20 | *** join/#utah Lone_Wanderer (n=chatzill@cg.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:10.24 | levi | Sweet, the embedded community is finally realizing that C doesn't fit anymore: http://notvincenz.blogspot.com/2007/04/observations-from-date-2007.html |
| 17:11.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Doesn't fit? |
| 17:12.45 | jsmith | Huh? |
| 17:13.06 | jsmith | What, people gonna start using embedded Iron Python? |
| 17:13.11 | levi | Embedded computing increasingly uses multiple cores, and C is not a very good fit for multi-core programming. |
| 17:13.57 | levi | No, I imagine they will end up using something low level like C, but with better support for concurrency. |
| 17:15.00 | levi | Maybe Ada will gain in popularity. Heh. |
| 17:20.36 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 17:21.23 | elg | levi: the post is a little shaky |
| 17:21.36 | elg | but I agree that C doesn't fit as well as it could |
| 17:21.42 | elg | er, as well as something else could I mean |
| 17:21.52 | levi | elg: He's reporting on the feeling he got from attending a huge embedded systems design conference. |
| 17:22.02 | elg | right |
| 17:22.10 | elg | but he has some pretty skewampus statements in there |
| 17:22.23 | elg | and it's heavily tinged by his own paradigm |
| 17:23.08 | elg | not to mention he wasn't very careful when writing it. typos, misstatements ("So obviously the amount of parallelism should be reduced to the absolute minimum.") |
| 17:23.55 | levi | Sure, it's to be taken with a grain of salt, but it's a blog post, not a journal article. |
| 17:24.09 | elg | yes |
| 17:24.37 | elg | two of his main points: parallelism is coming and C ain't the tool, I fully agree with |
| 17:25.12 | levi | That's what I was referencing. |
| 17:25.12 | elg | his "compilers need to cost more" argument makes no sense and he doesn't state it well |
| 17:28.09 | jsmith | Most embedded compilers already cost too much |
| 17:28.12 | levi | It is interesting, though, that many embedded tool companies have to move the cost of developing their compilers over into their other tools. |
| 17:28.12 | jsmith | Of course, I'm a cheapskate when it comes to compilers |
| 17:28.13 | levi | jsmith: Too much for hobbyists to use, but that's not who they're targeting. |
| 17:28.14 | elg | levi: but why do they? |
| 17:28.14 | elg | why not just charge more for a compiler? |
| 17:28.14 | jsmith | levi: True, but is a compiler really worth $5000? |
| 17:28.14 | levi | jsmith: It could be, depending on the compiler and the application. |
| 17:28.14 | elg | the very idea that the compiler makes all the difference flies in the face of his whole parallelism and C ain't it argument |
| 17:28.15 | levi | A $5000 flat fee would be incredibly cheap, actually. |
| 17:28.19 | jsmith | levi: If it comes with support and help with the build environment, etc. I be happy to pay it. But when it's just for the compiler binary and nothing more, it's a rip off in most cases. |
| 17:28.19 | levi | elg: Those were separate, unrelated observations. |
| 17:28.20 | elg | a compiler that could magically parallelize your code would be worth $5000 :) |
| 17:28.21 | jsmith | levi: I know... I've been there. |
| 17:28.31 | jsmith | elg: I thought you wrote that last semester :-) |
| 17:28.32 | elg | levi: sure, but that doesn't mean they're not contradicting. just not on the surface |
| 17:29.16 | elg | i mean, if the embedded market will support $10k compilers, then have at it |
| 17:29.26 | levi | elg: I fail to see how the value of a good compiler contradicts with the value of switching to a different language, if such a language existed. |
| 17:29.37 | elg | but if they're shifting the costs over to their tools, then the market isn't supporting the expensive compiler |
| 17:30.09 | elg | levi: not with switching languages, with the argument that we're maxing out on sequential speed |
| 17:30.32 | elg | the way forward isn't bumming a few more hz, or even a few more dozens of hz |
| 17:30.42 | elg | whether in actualy speed or compiled code efficiency |
| 17:31.04 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 17:31.13 | levi | elg: There's a difference between near and far term solutions, though. |
| 17:31.17 | elg | you code some good parallel stuff in gcc in the near future and you'll be way ahead of the current crop of specialized optimizing compilers |
| 17:31.46 | elg | optimization can't hurt, and may be well worth the $5k to someone |
| 17:31.53 | levi | Except you don't want to add the new parallel hardware unless you have to, because in the embedded world, hardware ain't as cheap as it is on the desktop. |
| 17:31.55 | elg | but it's not the primary way forward |
| 17:32.41 | levi | Because you ship your hardware with every unit sold; if you plan on shipping a lot of units, shaving a little bit of cost can add up. |
| 17:32.47 | elg | a compiler is worth what people will pay with it |
| 17:32.50 | elg | er, for it |
| 17:32.59 | elg | "compilers should cost more" is a silly argument |
| 17:33.11 | elg | if they really should, then compiler sellers would be charging more already |
| 17:33.54 | elg | a better argument might be "you should invest in a quality compiler", if you're trying to convince the buyers to shell out more money in exchange for what a more expensive compiler can do for you |
| 17:33.54 | levi | What he really means is that everyone wants compiler developers to be able to spend more money on compiler R&D, but the state of the market for compilers makes that difficult. |
| 17:34.10 | elg | well boo hoo |
| 17:34.18 | elg | someone will do it anyway, and they will make a killing |
| 17:34.34 | ^Migs^ | http://www.bash.org/?755143 |
| 17:34.35 | brac | [QDB: Quote #755143] |
| 17:34.50 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (i=UNKNOWN@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 17:34.56 | levi | Perhaps, perhaps not. |
| 17:35.23 | elg | well good luck getting the consumers to shell out more money on that kind of promise |
| 17:35.46 | elg | "we don't think anyone will write a better compiler unless you just hand us money to do it" |
| 17:35.58 | levi | It's in the same vein as whining that Microsoft has stifled software innovation. It's probably true, but there's not much to be done about it. |
| 17:36.32 | elg | i wouldn't go as far as "probably true", but yeah |
| 17:36.32 | graphyx | ^Migs^: how do they know a physics student wrote it? |
| 17:36.58 | elg | people like things that don't change. whether it was microsoft or apple or whatever, people would have made their own ruts to get stuck in |
| 17:37.09 | levi | It's a case of market forces leading to technically inferior products. As great as markets are, they do not always select for technical superiority. |
| 17:37.20 | elg | yup |
| 17:37.21 | graphyx | Then there is the purchase a better compiler for $100K, or just have the end user buy a better computer $0 |
| 17:37.28 | elg | but they do select for technical goodenoughness |
| 17:37.38 | levi | graphyx: You missed some context here. We're talking about embedded systems. |
| 17:37.41 | ^Migs^ | I'm assuming it was accompanied with a signature specifying that it was written by a physics student, e.g., "Ted Larson, a physics student" |
| 17:37.48 | elg | balanced with price and other forces |
| 17:38.02 | graphyx | levi: ok |
| 17:38.37 | graphyx | so it it $100K for a better compiler or $1.56, which gets passed on to the comsumer, per device for a better proc. |
| 17:38.43 | elg | just like natural selection doesn't make the perfect beast - just one that happens to do well |
| 17:38.56 | levi | elg: Roughly, but I think there are sometimes blips in the market that really screw with opportunities for excellence. |
| 17:39.11 | graphyx | levi like patents? |
| 17:39.39 | levi | graphyx: OK, so $1.56 additional cost per unit, multipled by 10 million units that can't sell for any higher without losing to a competitor's product... |
| 17:39.42 | elg | patents act on the market, they're not part of the market |
| 17:40.40 | graphyx | levi: is that just making a point or it this real world data? |
| 17:40.45 | elg | i totally agree that compilers could be _worth_ more. and getting consumers to recognize it could of course be a difficult challenge in marketing |
| 17:41.47 | elg | i don't agree that just rising the cost of compilers because some guy who went to a conference says so (or some group of compiler sellers, etc.) will make any difference whatever |
| 17:41.49 | levi | graphyx: It's made up, but not unreasonable. Just about every consumer product has some sort of an embedded computer in it these days, and price points are more often than not fixed by market forces, not cost of supplies. |
| 17:42.37 | elg | levi: the parallelization point means that it will be cheaper to have more low-powered cores than fewer faster cores |
| 17:43.45 | levi | elg: Not necessarily. At large scale, compiler improvements give essentially free speed. |
| 17:43.49 | elg | and you could possibly save money even with gcc. as cores are a discrete quantity it may or may not be worth paying extra for a compiler too |
| 17:44.23 | levi | Over a few million units, if you can add a new feature by buying a new compiler as opposed to upgrading your hardware cost... |
| 17:44.50 | elg | that's incremental improvement |
| 17:44.58 | elg | which will be enough in many real world situations |
| 17:45.29 | elg | sometimes a better compiler will make more sense than parallelization |
| 17:45.32 | elg | sometimes both will be needed |
| 17:45.40 | elg | sometimes just paralleliation will lower the total cost |
| 17:45.51 | elg | below "good enough" and then a better compiler would be moot |
| 17:46.02 | elg | unless it reduced the number of cores needed by 1 |
| 17:46.18 | elg | reducing cores needed by 1/2 does no good |
| 17:46.22 | elg | waste of money |
| 17:46.41 | elg | but 5k is a drop in the bucket for a company and they'd rather be safe than sorry ,no doubt |
| 17:46.48 | levi | There's a wide enough array of embedded processors that just about any discrete unit of computing power could be accounted for. We're not talking about x86 cores, here. |
| 17:47.30 | elg | well either each little core/transistor/whatever matters or it doesn't |
| 17:47.33 | elg | can't have it both ways |
| 17:48.18 | levi | Who's trying to have it both ways? |
| 17:48.22 | levi | If you can't make the physical part faster, you have to add more physical parts. However, it makes sense to try to extract as much as possible out of the parts you have. |
| 17:48.39 | elg | you. you just made the argument to graphyx about every little thing, and now you're telling me that discrete units of cores aren't important |
| 17:48.56 | levi | What? |
| 17:49.17 | levi | I'm saying that although cores are discrete units, they come in variable sizes. |
| 17:49.23 | ^Migs^ | http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSSP32758320070423?feedType=RSS |
| 17:49.42 | levi | If your program doesn't run fast enough on the biggest size, you need more hardware or you need a better compiler. |
| 17:50.34 | levi | Unless the compiler is outlandishly expensive or you are dealing in a very small number of units, the compiler is going to be a better deal. |
| 17:51.06 | elg | right. exactly my point. the market will bear compiler costs, and compilers worth their costs will be bought |
| 17:51.09 | levi | Of course, there are other factors involved besides pure speed. There's power usage, etc. |
| 17:51.36 | levi | elg: Assuming everyone in the market is acting rationally. |
| 17:52.10 | elg | that's where marketing comes in. the marketers ensure that everyone acts more or less rationally (or irrationally, depending on your POV :) |
| 17:52.39 | elg | if you think the market is behaving irrationally, you have a marketing problem |
| 17:55.40 | levi | I think we've come more or less to agreement, but I don't think you've demonstrated that the ideas of better compilers and a better language for parallelism are contradictory. |
| 17:56.14 | elg | i think we've come to more agreement than you think we've come to |
| 17:56.42 | levi | That's very possible. :) |
| 17:58.33 | elg | my point was not that better compilers are contradictory, but that he's saying "parallelism is the one true way to better performance" and then turning around saying "compilers should cost more or we're all doomed" |
| 17:58.48 | elg | underneath better compilers are important in the big picture |
| 17:59.04 | elg | maybe I didn't read the emotional content of his post correctly |
| 18:02.41 | levi | See, I passed it through my blog entry anti-bogosity filter first, which translated what he said into stuff that might be reasonable approximations of what people at this conference were actually saying. ;) |
| 18:03.49 | levi | I'm not really interested in this guy or what he thinks, but I am interested in what the buzz in the embedded industry is. |
| 18:17.56 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@64.122.197.182) |
| 18:18.28 | sjansen | ~tickle Zelut |
| 18:18.30 | ibot | ACTION jumps on Zelut, yelling "TICKLE FIGHT!!!!" |
| 18:20.26 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 18:23.44 | sjansen | ~chase Zelut |
| 18:23.46 | ibot | ACTION chases Zelut |
| 18:33.01 | Zelut | eek |
| 18:33.38 | findlay | ~chase sjansen |
| 18:33.40 | ibot | ACTION chases sjansen |
| 18:33.45 | findlay | ~recurse |
| 18:33.47 | ibot | ~recurse |
| 18:33.57 | sjansen | ~cluebat findlay |
| 18:33.59 | ibot | ACTION pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps findlay. |
| 18:34.02 | graphyx | ~curse |
| 18:34.04 | ibot | somebody said swearing was Silence, you sock-clucking mother-trucker |
| 18:34.13 | findlay | ~shoot sjansen |
| 18:34.15 | ibot | ACTION shoots sjansen in the head with a glue gun! |
| 18:35.01 | sjansen | ~lunch |
| 18:35.03 | ibot | [lunch] a nightmare in the Mensa |
| 18:57.32 | elg | -lart sjansen |
| 18:57.44 | findlay | ha |
| 18:58.38 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://www.plug.org/node/28 | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | elg & co. are getting another processor |
| 19:00.59 | elg | -lart lukfugl |
| 19:01.29 | lukfugl | wha |
| 19:02.40 | findlay | -lart *fugal |
| 19:10.52 | levi | I'm disappointed that there was no further discussion on the plug list regarding the software/carpentry analogy. |
| 19:11.51 | ^Migs^ | speaking of carpentry, I need to find some good plans for a backyard shed |
| 19:12.01 | ^Migs^ | I think it'd be a fun summer project. |
| 19:12.21 | findlay | that better levi? |
| 19:13.26 | levi | Hasn't propagated to me yet. |
| 19:14.03 | findlay | hm |
| 19:14.19 | findlay | it was a stupid reply anyway |
| 19:15.07 | levi | Yes, it was. |
| 19:15.12 | levi | (it finally arrived) |
| 19:20.16 | ^Migs^ | how long does it take to build a shed yourself? |
| 19:20.41 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: the rest of your life |
| 19:21.05 | ^Migs^ | I can't wait that long |
| 19:21.17 | ^Migs^ | is that how long it's taken you to build your shed? |
| 19:21.59 | findlay | you can scrounge around Provo dumpsters. For the next few weeks you could find enough cinder blocks to build a castle |
| 19:22.22 | findlay | and then put your lawnmower in that |
| 19:24.25 | ^Migs^ | why does everyone assume I live in the Salt Lake/Provo area? |
| 19:25.09 | sjansen | levi: What would have been the point? Once levi, in his wisdom, has spoken, the Truth is known and can not be denied. Though any may reject Truth, the Seeker will not. The true Seeker will acknowledge and live by the word of levi and be happier thereby. |
| 19:25.45 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: <wax brand="philosophical">you don't build a shed. a shed builds *you*</wax> |
| 19:26.00 | lukfugl | even when not in soviet russia |
| 19:26.29 | sjansen | Or in other words, Java is not to Lisp as a Hammer is to Nail Gun. |
| 19:26.29 | findlay | ^Migs^: who made that assumption? |
| 19:27.25 | levi | sjansen: Hey, I can be wrong sometimes. And even if I'm right, further discussion can elucidate points that I did not mention. |
| 19:28.48 | ^Migs^ | I don't know, but it seems like it's always an assumption around here |
| 19:28.55 | ^Migs^ | am I seriously the only one who lives north of SLC? |
| 19:29.44 | lukfugl | radishes? |
| 19:29.54 | levi | No, beets. |
| 19:29.59 | levi | Dead beets, in fact. |
| 19:30.11 | levi | They were already dead to me. |
| 19:37.48 | graphyx | ^Migs^: the population of Utah that lives north of slc is a small percentage. |
| 19:38.06 | lukfugl | elg: http://adhearsion.com/ |
| 19:38.12 | brac | [Home - Adhearsion.com] |
| 19:38.45 | ^Migs^ | yeah, but we make up for our small percentage of population with a large percentage of AWESOMENESS! |
| 19:38.49 | lukfugl | site design screams OW MY FREAKIN RETINAS!, but the concept looks interesting, if nothing else than something to mine for ideas :) |
| 19:39.08 | findlay | ^Migs^: what if I thought you lived in Hawaii? |
| 19:39.25 | findlay | would you still come to Provo to scrounge bricks? |
| 19:39.26 | ^Migs^ | then you'd be wrong |
| 19:39.35 | ^Migs^ | probably not |
| 19:39.35 | ^Migs^ | depends |
| 19:39.40 | ^Migs^ | how good are the bricks? |
| 19:39.59 | findlay | average |
| 19:40.15 | findlay | what a college student's budget can afford |
| 19:41.53 | Tene | migs: if you're a representative north-utahn, I'm going to have to contest your awesomeness assertion. |
| 19:42.21 | ^Migs^ | I represent ALL north Utahns |
| 19:42.26 | ^Migs^ | so contest away |
| 19:42.44 | levi | lukfugl: That site so wants to be Web two-point-oh but can't afford a graphic artist capable of pulling it off, which is sad. |
| 19:47.30 | Keighvin | Moral Kombat!! |
| 19:48.17 | graphyx | levi what makes a site web 2.0? |
| 19:48.39 | graphyx | I thought it was the employment of ajax to report data without a new page load. |
| 19:48.44 | ^Migs^ | IAW levi. That is one UNweb 2.0 site. |
| 19:48.50 | ^Migs^ | not necessarily |
| 19:49.07 | ^Migs^ | it does have rounded corners |
| 19:49.41 | graphyx | round corners => web 2.0? |
| 19:49.51 | graphyx | sounds like the old 2000 |
| 19:49.53 | findlay | rounded corners is one of the main requirements |
| 19:49.59 | graphyx | 2000 to xp upgrade. |
| 19:50.02 | levi | graphyx: There's also a definite graphic design look to the 'Web 2.0' sites. Bright, contrasting colors; large font sizes for headings; rounded corners; emblems with drop-shadows; etc. |
| 19:50.03 | graphyx | its better trust us. |
| 19:50.09 | ^Migs^ | rounded corners + ajax = cornerstones of web 2.0 |
| 19:50.16 | graphyx | heh |
| 19:50.27 | jsmith | Don't forget the "data is the Intel inside" mantra of Web 2.0 |
| 19:50.38 | Lone_Wanderer | I hate Web 2.0 and want it to die a horrible fiery death. |
| 19:51.01 | findlay | ~flame web-2.0 |
| 19:51.08 | ibot | web-2.0, YOU SUCK. And you know it. |
| 19:51.33 | levi | Other aspects are user-tagging, user-publishing of random stuff, etc. |
| 19:51.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Although, I will grant that some of the design elements you typically see on 2.0-ish sites are nice. |
| 19:51.46 | ^Migs^ | http://freshmeat.net/projects/synergy2/ |
| 19:52.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Such as bright, contrasting colors and large text for your headlines. But those are good design principles that have existed for a long time outside of the web. |
| 19:52.08 | levi | I don't think there's a clear guideline on what Web 2.0 entails; the definition varies depending on who you ask. |
| 19:52.28 | Lone_Wanderer | There isn't. Which is one of the things that I don't like about it. The phrase is largely meaningless. |
| 19:52.54 | levi | Well, I wouldn't call it meaningless. More like vague. |
| 19:53.04 | Lone_Wanderer | u r rong noob |
| 19:53.12 | findlay | ~buzzword Lone_Wanderer |
| 19:53.27 | levi | It's analogous to the different periods in art or classical music. |
| 19:53.35 | ^Migs^ | is Myspace supposed to be Web 2.0? |
| 19:53.39 | Lone_Wanderer | No. |
| 19:54.00 | ^Migs^ | I wonder what Web 3.0 will be like |
| 19:54.08 | Lone_Wanderer | MySpace is Web Piece of Bloody, Diorheal Rat Feces. |
| 19:55.18 | levi | Diarrheal, you mean? |
| 19:55.31 | findlay | ~buzzword Lone_Wanderer |
| 19:55.33 | ibot | ACTION sends a squadron of buzzwords at $Lone_Wanderer, buzzing, annoying, and harrying until $Lone_Wanderer runs madly away from technology |
| 19:55.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Perhaps. I'm taking the word from my German friend, who is probably using British spelling. |
| 19:55.57 | findlay | interesting |
| 19:56.26 | *** join/#utah dilvie__ (n=chatzill@c-67-169-243-184.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:57.03 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: More likely, he is simply wrong. That spelling yields a single google hit--a herbal holistics site. |
| 19:57.28 | findlay | ~buzzword levi |
| 19:57.30 | ibot | ACTION sends a squadron of buzzwords at levi, buzzing, annoying, and harrying until levi runs madly away from technology |
| 19:57.37 | levi | And google kindly suggests that I might mean 'diarrheal' |
| 19:58.08 | ^Migs^ | diarrheal is a real adjective? |
| 19:59.18 | levi | At least in the medical community, it is. |
| 20:03.13 | Lone_Wanderer | She. |
| 20:03.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Also, I'm doing it by memory. |
| 20:28.28 | ^Migs^ | I need to become a master of cryptography or something, so I can put that on my resume |
| 20:28.41 | ^Migs^ | I think that would really attract a lot of emplyoers |
| 20:28.46 | ^Migs^ | s/emplyoers/employers/ |
| 20:29.07 | ^Migs^ | that was really [another] pointless private thought that somehow made its way to the keyboard |
| 20:31.24 | levi | "Not that kind of MC! I'm a Master of Cryptography!" |
| 20:34.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Why would that attract potential employers? What kind of work are you looking for? |
| 20:39.56 | elg | lukfugl: I'm superficially familiar with adhearsion |
| 20:40.19 | ^Migs^ | I think most companies would someone who's security-aware |
| 20:40.31 | ^Migs^ | development, btw |
| 20:40.32 | elg | the adhearsion guy and the ragi guy and maybe a few others got together at emerging telephony conference and were gonna start some discussions etc. |
| 20:40.39 | elg | that was right about the time I released batphone |
| 20:40.48 | elg | he emailed me, I said "sure I'll join in the discussions" |
| 20:40.50 | ^Migs^ | what I said really isn't worth discussing |
| 20:40.52 | elg | but then I think it must have fizled |
| 20:40.53 | ^Migs^ | like most of what I say |
| 20:41.25 | elg | anyway, ragi and adhearsion are for web developers interacting with asterisk, is my feeling |
| 20:41.28 | elg | gut feeling |
| 20:41.36 | elg | batphone is for sysadmins using/deploying asterisk |
| 20:41.44 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 20:42.02 | elg | both looked way too complicated, which is why I wrote batphone. the simple unix-like ruby asterisk tool |
| 20:42.06 | Lone_Wanderer | ^Migs^: I don't think that learning cryptography is going to make you understand how to write secure code any better. |
| 20:42.28 | elg | unless by secure code he means encrypted code |
| 20:42.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Ohhh, right. That would work. |
| 20:44.06 | sjansen | elg: Who are "& co." and why do we care? |
| 20:44.14 | rsimpkins | gpg --encrypt code.c <-- encrypted code? |
| 20:44.29 | ^Migs^ | I never used the phrase "secure code" |
| 20:44.31 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://www.plug.org/node/28 | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | elg & co. are getting another processor | levi is not a carpenter |
| 20:45.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, then. I don't think learning the concepts behind cryptography will make you more security-aware. |
| 20:45.40 | Lone_Wanderer | Any more than learning how a padlock works will teach you how to secure a building. |
| 20:47.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Today, or just this afternoon? |
| 20:47.57 | Lone_Wanderer | because, honestly, there's a big difference! |
| 20:47.58 | elg | what about the rest of the days? |
| 20:48.04 | rsimpkins | sjansen: While you are at it, I set up an alias: http://plug.org/irc |
| 20:48.15 | elg | sjansen: & co is the rest of the fugals in las cruces |
| 20:49.14 | *** topic/#utah by rsimpkins -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | elg & co. are getting another processor | levi is not a carpenter |
| 21:03.58 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 21:06.07 | *** join/#utah zerdith (n=zerdith@66-188-62-36.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com) |
| 21:10.18 | elg | hmm. a professor just mentioned in the hall, "new development?" referring to my beard. either he's fairly unobservant or my beard is looking significantly more beardy than before |
| 21:10.30 | *** join/#utah knine (n=knine@128.187.197.223) |
| 21:10.35 | *** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.169.195) |
| 21:11.17 | ^Migs^ | die you dye your beard or something? |
| 21:11.20 | Tene | elg: or perhaps there's a raccoon clinging to your face. Have you checked? |
| 21:11.28 | ^Migs^ | I think that would increase the beardiness factor by at least 10 |
| 21:12.25 | *** join/#utah knine (n=knine@128.187.197.223) |
| 21:12.36 | elg | i started growing it out a little longer back in december |
| 21:12.44 | elg | and full, not just goatee |
| 21:12.56 | elg | but i've had a beard for a long time |
| 21:13.16 | ^Migs^ | I miss having a beard |
| 21:13.22 | Lone_Wanderer | How fast does it grow? |
| 21:13.25 | ^Migs^ | it probably wasn't as big as yours, but I had a nice bush growing |
| 21:13.49 | ^Migs^ | my mom CONSTANTLY harassed me about it |
| 21:13.55 | ^Migs^ | calling it "creeping fungus" and stuff |
| 21:14.18 | Lone_Wanderer | So I usually end up trimming my facial hair to the shortest setting my clippers will allow once a week. |
| 21:14.22 | elg | ^Migs^: well mine is a bit scraggly |
| 21:14.25 | levi | Hah, this is excellent: http://xkcd.org/c253.html |
| 21:14.28 | brac | [xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe] |
| 21:14.54 | ^Migs^ | I wish there was some liquid- or powder-based solution that would effectively neutralize the face and prevent any hair from growing on it ever again |
| 21:15.00 | Lone_Wanderer | rofl |
| 21:15.05 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm glad he finally said something about it. |
| 21:16.04 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: what was happening? |
| 21:16.10 | elg | here is a recent, cheesy photo of me http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~ipivkina/cs272/hans.jpg |
| 21:16.34 | elg | i'd much rather have sjansen's beard, but I'll take what I've got |
| 21:16.57 | elg | i'd rather have a beard than shave anyday. not only shaving, but having a shaved face is annoying |
| 21:18.34 | elg | ^Migs^: there is |
| 21:18.40 | elg | ^Migs^: but you might not like the scars |
| 21:18.49 | elg | or the pain |
| 21:19.14 | ^Migs^ | oh, that's it? |
| 21:19.21 | ^Migs^ | my beard, while not as wide, was quite bushier |
| 21:19.36 | elg | well that was the beginning of the semester, before I started growing it out really |
| 21:19.37 | ^Migs^ | it looked pretty stupid now that I think about it |
| 21:19.40 | elg | but after I went full instead of goatee |
| 21:19.55 | ^Migs^ | you'd look good with a really full beard |
| 21:19.57 | elg | i think it's looking better now |
| 21:20.23 | elg | it's actually starting to look like a beard everywhere |
| 21:20.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: Reddit links to XKCD comics ALL THE TIME. It's really annoying and lame. I can go check xkcd any time I want thanks. No need to post every comic to Reddit. |
| 21:20.32 | elg | even on my cheeks |
| 21:22.15 | elg | here's the averages for the labs since the beginning of the semester: 89, 79, 75, 82, 97, 92 |
| 21:22.27 | elg | the first lab was easy |
| 21:22.33 | elg | are the students just getting better? |
| 21:22.42 | elg | or is it that half of the class seems to have dropped out? :) |
| 21:23.04 | elg | ok, 1/3 |
| 21:24.08 | elg | i worked with a guy who has a totally awesome beard. solid, black, tight curl, opaque within like 3 days |
| 21:24.35 | elg | he doesn't like it though and prefers to shave (but his wife prefers the beard, so sometimes he wears it) |
| 21:24.44 | elg | I want to hit people like that upside the head |
| 21:27.34 | atoponce | is it just me, or can you not add a specific css rule to just the <tr> tag? |
| 21:27.50 | atoponce | trying padding, margin, border-spacing, and none work |
| 21:28.26 | elg | what about blink? |
| 21:28.37 | elg | or maybe background |
| 21:29.14 | atoponce | well, i'm looking to add some spacing between the row and the table |
| 21:29.36 | Tene | atoponce: that seems strange. |
| 21:29.37 | atoponce | just affecting the space on the left of the row, actually |
| 21:30.23 | atoponce | <table><tr><td>blah</td></tr></table> « how to add 10px width between the tr and the table on the left? |
| 21:30.54 | atoponce | i can add 10px between tr and td, but that's not what i want |
| 21:31.12 | atoponce | i'm i trying to accomplish the impossible? |
| 21:32.12 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 21:32.55 | elg | ~cook beandog |
| 21:32.56 | ibot | ACTION throws beandog in a big pan with veggies inside and cooks beandog on 350 for an hour |
| 21:33.08 | beandog | veggies? |
| 21:33.09 | beandog | bleh. |
| 21:33.47 | ^Migs^ | wouldn't that be a cellspacing? |
| 21:33.58 | Tene | atoponce: to all of the <tr>s, or just one? |
| 21:34.08 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: ewww |
| 21:34.13 | Tene | atoponce: because if it's all of them, you could just add padding-left to the table. |
| 21:34.24 | atoponce | ^Migs^: yes, but that affects the whole table. i just want to affect the left side of the tr. |
| 21:34.25 | ^Migs^ | well HE's the one using tables |
| 21:34.29 | elg | atoponce: padding is inside right? |
| 21:34.31 | atoponce | Tene: to all |
| 21:34.36 | atoponce | elg: right |
| 21:34.38 | elg | do you want margin? |
| 21:34.51 | Tene | atoponce: table { padding-left: 10px; } |
| 21:34.53 | atoponce | wait |
| 21:34.55 | ^Migs^ | I mean, wouldn't that be a cellspacing, and therefore just margin-left? |
| 21:35.06 | ^Migs^ | or is cellspacing padding? |
| 21:35.13 | Tene | migs: margin-left doesn't do anything on <tr> elements |
| 21:35.16 | ^Migs^ | no, that's cellpadding |
| 21:35.16 | atoponce | Tene: why didn't i think of that? the whole time, i'm focused on <tr> |
| 21:35.19 | ^Migs^ | oh |
| 21:35.23 | ^Migs^ | yeah, fix table then |
| 21:35.42 | elg | why doesn't margin on tr have effect? |
| 21:35.43 | Tene | atoponce: you didn't think of it because you couldn't think of any reason for margin on <tr> to not work |
| 21:36.21 | atoponce | Tene: basically, yeah. why doesn't it work? seems like it would |
| 21:36.31 | atoponce | stupid html |
| 21:36.57 | ^Migs^ | dumb html. Everything should be in Flash. |
| 21:37.12 | Tene | migs makes me miss mheath. |
| 21:37.18 | ^Migs^ | haha |
| 21:37.18 | atoponce | hmm |
| 21:37.26 | atoponce | that's doesn't seem to be taking effect either |
| 21:37.33 | Tene | Ooo... alliteration. |
| 21:37.33 | ^Migs^ | in FF? |
| 21:37.40 | ^Migs^ | wow, that was nice, Tene |
| 21:37.49 | Tene | atoponce: http://castro.iodynamics.com/~tene/atoponce.html |
| 21:38.08 | atoponce | heh |
| 21:38.09 | Tene | migs: it was intended to be an insult. I'm suggesting that you're far more annoying than he ever was. |
| 21:38.15 | atoponce | right != left |
| 21:38.39 | ^Migs^ | no, I meant your alliteration was nice |
| 21:39.13 | ^Migs^ | I'm very well aware of your unaccommodating intentions |
| 21:39.41 | Tene | oh, the alliteration wasn't intentional. |
| 21:39.44 | ^Migs^ | Yes, I know |
| 21:39.50 | ^Migs^ | which made it 10x nicer |
| 21:40.00 | ^Migs^ | holy dang, never mind |
| 21:40.00 | Tene | and it doesn't really work when spoken, because i pronounce "mheath" as "emheath" |
| 21:40.10 | ^Migs^ | me too |
| 21:40.21 | ^Migs^ | how else would it be pronounced? |
| 21:40.49 | Tene | I can't think of any other reasonable pronounciations, but it still breaks the alliteration. |
| 21:40.58 | elg | it's a visual alliteration |
| 21:41.13 | Tene | ibot: migs |
| 21:41.27 | Tene | ibot: migs is <reply> migs makes me miss mheath |
| 21:41.29 | ibot | ACTION forces is <reply> migs makes me miss mheath to learn perl from ^Migs^ |
| 21:41.44 | Tene | o.O |
| 21:41.56 | Tene | Oh. |
| 21:42.03 | ^Migs^ | it's still very much an alliteration. Alliteration, by definition, should be written. |
| 21:42.43 | sjansen | Anyone want to ~shave elg? |
| 21:43.24 | jsmith | ~yakshave elg |
| 21:49.42 | elg | ~fry sjansen |
| 21:49.44 | ibot | ACTION grabs sjansen and fries him on his BFCooker9000 |
| 22:02.36 | Tene | http://www.nctexasbirds.com/images/hot_news.jpg |
| 22:03.47 | lukfugl | awesome |
| 22:03.58 | elg | lol |
| 22:04.04 | elg | that is classic |
| 22:04.35 | elg | that is just too much on so many levels |
| 22:04.46 | elg | like, the headline typo |
| 22:07.38 | sjansen | Tene: Wow. Just. Wow. |
| 22:16.47 | Lone_Wanderer | HTML |
| 22:16.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Does. Not. Belong. |
| 22:16.56 | Lone_Wanderer | In the DATABASE! |
| 22:17.05 | Keighvin | AMEN! |
| 22:17.11 | Lone_Wanderer | Ever. I don't care. No. No, not then either. Nope, it still doesn't. |
| 22:18.32 | Keighvin | I have an even worse abstraction on that for you. |
| 22:18.56 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay, what is it? |
| 22:18.58 | Keighvin | Overstock keeps most of their design elements in the database. |
| 22:19.08 | Keighvin | The ones that aren't there, they keep in the C source code itself. |
| 22:19.19 | Keighvin | (they've very, very slowly getting away from the latter) |
| 22:19.31 | Keighvin | In order to create a page, the twain must be combined. |
| 22:19.39 | Lone_Wanderer | Beautiful. |
| 22:19.42 | Keighvin | Within the database HTML, they have what they call O-tags. |
| 22:20.07 | Keighvin | Basically HTML tag style placeholders which flag to the parser (C) that function X should be executed and inserted there. |
| 22:20.18 | Lone_Wanderer | Overstock-tags, that get parsed into something else, right? |
| 22:20.41 | Lone_Wanderer | So basically they have their own Web development language. |
| 22:20.46 | Keighvin | They also have a "cache" - which is really just an ultra-denormalized database which exists in the SAME FREAKING CLUSTER as their production database. |
| 22:20.56 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Doesn't everyone have their own template language now? |
| 22:21.18 | Keighvin | The cache stores pre-rendered pages, supposedly to ease up on multiple DB hits per fetch for frequently used items. |
| 22:21.20 | Lone_Wanderer | Which is proprietary to Overstock, which needs to be learned by every new employee, and which has scary, and very subtle, bugs? |
| 22:21.38 | Lone_Wanderer | And yet the cache is... drumroll... *also* in the database! |
| 22:21.44 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: Only the "smart" people. |
| 22:21.50 | Keighvin | Except that, it stores them with the O tags still in place - so it has to do the same calls anyway, after pulling a massive swatch of CLOB data out of this separate instance in the same place. |
| 22:22.03 | bonez39 | is there any way to discover one's remote IP...for example, at home, I have comcast.. and a new wrt54g that I installed today....I enabled remote admin on it..and then came to my office....is there any way to remotely discover the IP address at home? |
| 22:22.15 | Keighvin | http://whatismyip.com |
| 22:22.16 | brac | [WhatIsMyIP.com - 216.31.27.106] |
| 22:22.26 | Lone_Wanderer | sweet, now I know brac's IP |
| 22:22.55 | Keighvin | Do you have any connectivity to your home at all? |
| 22:22.57 | bonez39 | Keighvin, but will this work to discover an IP ..not where I am now...(work) but at my home? |
| 22:23.13 | Keighvin | If you have something at your home fetch it, yes. |
| 22:23.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Keighvin: rofl that's awesome |
| 22:23.30 | bonez39 | Keighvin, well, I used to via ssh, but I can't get that working..it works fine with remote access to my office..I can access from anywhere to here...but I can't access home.....sshd is running there... |
| 22:23.37 | Keighvin | OSTK = TheDailyWTF |
| 22:23.42 | levi | Keighvin: Sounds like they had some real geniuses working there. |
| 22:24.12 | bonez39 | ls |
| 22:24.29 | Keighvin | I remember first encountering snippets of this travesty during my interview with them - "Wait, you're using C to write web-apps?" |
| 22:25.32 | levi | C is fast, dude! And faster is better, right? |
| 22:25.34 | Lone_Wanderer | And they looked at you with an "Oh dear, he really doesn't know his stuff" look, huh? |
| 22:25.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Because of *course* they did their research. |
| 22:26.01 | Lone_Wanderer | So anyone who disagrees with them just doesn't know as much as they do. |
| 22:28.09 | levi | Well, maybe they're embarrassed about it now. |
| 22:28.10 | Keighvin | Hey, I really needed a paycheck - and at least it was Linux. |
| 22:29.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, you can't complain about that. I mean, you get to write C in a production environment. |
| 22:29.25 | Lone_Wanderer | And I bet you're learning all kinds of crazy stuff you wouldn't have otherwise. |
| 22:29.51 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: You say 'you get to write C in a production environment' like it's a good thing. |
| 22:30.37 | Lone_Wanderer | I imagine it's the kind of experience that gets you good jobs. |
| 22:31.08 | Keighvin | Learned. I had enough of it a year ago and split. |
| 22:31.08 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 22:31.08 | Keighvin | Worked my way up to Director before I did, but they still wouldn't listen to reason. |
| 22:31.56 | Lone_Wanderer | That's too bad. |
| 22:32.35 | Lone_Wanderer | It's a great site to shop from. |
| 22:32.44 | Lone_Wanderer | When I want something they're selling. |
| 22:33.08 | Keighvin | Meh - you can usually get it elsewhere cheaper. |
| 22:33.15 | Keighvin | Oh, that and the company's evil. |
| 22:34.15 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Well, that's probably true, but it's not an implementation choice I'd make if I could come up with a reasonable alternative. |
| 22:35.13 | Lone_Wanderer | What's evil about them, other than the poor design choices? |
| 22:35.48 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: Me neither, but money is good. |
| 22:35.58 | *** join/#utah ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 22:36.10 | Keighvin | Lone_Wanderer: Long story. Long, bloody story. |
| 22:36.12 | ScytheBlade1 | PHP just killed my computer :( |
| 22:36.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay. |
| 22:36.27 | Lone_Wanderer | PHP is a well known psychopath. |
| 22:36.36 | levi | ScytheBlade1: Let this be a lesson to you! |
| 22:36.44 | ScytheBlade1 | I mis-typed *something* |
| 22:36.58 | ScytheBlade1 | End result, had an infinite loop going on, and every time through that loop, it was adding an element to an array |
| 22:37.04 | ScytheBlade1 | See where this is going? |
| 22:37.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Yes. |
| 22:37.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, that sucked. |
| 22:37.27 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, any language would've done that. |
| 22:37.53 | Keighvin | while( 1 ){ fork(); } |
| 22:37.56 | levi | Except for those with static array bounds that are checked at runtime. |
| 22:38.05 | Keighvin | I like that version better, brings death faster. |
| 22:38.14 | ScytheBlade1 | This brought death really quickly |
| 22:38.15 | Tene | There are languages that will help you avoid mistakes like that though, Lone_Wanderer |
| 22:38.22 | ScytheBlade1 | X locked up in about 10 seconds |
| 22:38.28 | ScytheBlade1 | The HD went mad after 15 |
| 22:39.19 | ScytheBlade1 | This round, I've got another computer SSH'd into this one |
| 22:39.31 | ScytheBlade1 | With `killall -9 apache2` in the terminal ;P |
| 22:40.30 | *** join/#utah zerdith (n=zerdith@66-188-62-36.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com) |
| 22:40.41 | Lone_Wanderer | I wonder how long it'd take my Mac to lock up from a fork bomb. |
| 22:41.29 | Keighvin | Try it! |
| 22:42.21 | Lone_Wanderer | No thanks, I'm working :p |
| 22:42.50 | Keighvin | weak. |
| 23:13.06 | harleypig | Miles and miles of twine |
| 23:13.06 | harleypig | twining and twining my mind. |
| 23:15.34 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@dsl092-197-124.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:24.09 | sjansen | ~invoke Zelut |
| 23:34.09 | sjansen | ~wake Zelut |
| 23:34.11 | ibot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on Zelut and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 23:34.35 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=xbmodder@69-12-240-206.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 23:40.41 | harleypig | So. I have a few minutes ... anyone able and willing to help me get my tv tuner working? |
| 23:41.21 | harleypig | Or can at leat point me to a irc channel that can help me? |
| 23:41.57 | sjansen | ~tune harleypig |
| 23:42.43 | harleypig | Thereby causing everyone to scream in mental anguish |
| 23:42.47 | sjansen | harleypig: You need to talk to whats-his-face. You know, the guy that never hangs out in #utah anymore? Yeah, him. He's an expert. |
| 23:43.08 | harleypig | Um, which whats-his-face? |
| 23:43.33 | harleypig | I thought we were all experts here. |
| 23:44.05 | sjansen | If I knew his name, do you think I'd be calling him whats-his-face? |
| 23:44.05 | harleypig | Obvious exceptions aside. |
| 23:44.06 | harleypig | Possibly. |
| 23:44.06 | sjansen | bbeatie |
| 23:44.06 | harleypig | I don't even recognize that nick. |
| 23:45.19 | sjansen | Is there a MythTV user in the house? |
| 23:45.44 | harleypig | doesn't necessarily have to be mythtv (I'm actually not setting up mythtv at the moment) |
| 23:46.16 | sjansen | I know spr and amcnabb know a bit. |
| 23:46.54 | sjansen | harleypig: You should talk to hatul30 s/he'll set you straight. |
| 23:48.25 | harleypig | Y'know ... if you wanna go that route, it really should be [sh]?[ei]t ... |
| 23:49.17 | sjansen | et? hit? sit? het? set? |
| 23:49.17 | harleypig | err ... no ... |
| 23:49.46 | harleypig | s?h?[ei]t |
| 23:49.46 | sjansen | s?he|it |
| 23:50.15 | harleypig | she he it |
| 23:50.27 | sjansen | set? sit? het? hit? shet? sh*t? |
| 23:50.27 | harleypig | of course, one or two other words get passed that ... |
| 23:50.41 | harleypig | s?h?[ei]t? |
| 23:50.52 | harleypig | \bs?h?eit?\b |
| 23:50.57 | harleypig | nuts |
| 23:50.58 | sjansen | s?he|it |
| 23:51.06 | sjansen | s?he|it |
| 23:51.15 | harleypig | No ... the 'h' is optional to. |
| 23:51.23 | harleypig | and the t |
| 23:51.38 | harleypig | \bs?h?[ei]t?\b |
| 23:53.25 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:53.49 | Sargun | harleypig, |
| 23:55.25 | harleypig | si? |
| 23:55.42 | harleypig | sjansen: ow |
| 23:55.57 | sjansen | harleypig: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line. And NEVER go up against sjansen when he's bored. |
| 23:56.13 | harleypig | heh |
| 23:56.27 | harleypig | But that doesn't match correctly. |
| 23:56.34 | sjansen | details |
| 23:56.38 | sjansen | don't bother me with details |
| 23:56.45 | harleypig | AND it's inefficient ... |
| 23:56.51 | sjansen | I paint the broad strokes. You fill in the lines. |
| 23:57.49 | harleypig | /\b(?:[sh])?[^a-df-gj-rt-zA-Z[:PUNCT:]0-9]?t*/ig |
| 23:58.18 | harleypig | Sargun: Nice timing. :> |
| 23:58.43 | harleypig | I have to go to dinner now. Will you still be here in ab0out an hour? |
