| 00:02.02 | vontrapp | stupid programs that think they're too good to make a full man page! |
| 00:02.25 | vontrapp | see info for the complete manual |
| 00:02.32 | vontrapp | well i hate info! |
| 00:03.15 | sjansen | vontrapp: I felt the same way until I discovered pinfo. |
| 00:04.04 | sjansen | I still prefer man, but at least I don't want to kick RMS every time I run pinfo. |
| 00:05.34 | vontrapp | that gives me the same as man grub, just with more colors |
| 00:05.44 | sjansen | pinfo grub |
| 00:06.06 | vontrapp | that's what i did |
| 00:06.10 | sjansen | Should give you the info page bug with pretty blue hyperlinks and arrow key navigation. |
| 00:06.21 | sjansen | s/bug/grub |
| 00:06.40 | vontrapp | darn that info page bug |
| 00:06.57 | vontrapp | eats all my info |
| 00:08.26 | vontrapp | blech |
| 00:10.14 | sjansen | vontrapp: "pause" looks like your best bet |
| 00:10.19 | vontrapp | and i'd prefer vmware not hose my ubuntu again when winblows reboots itself |
| 00:11.41 | levi | vontrapp: You're programming in scheme? |
| 00:13.37 | vontrapp | levi: heck yes |
| 00:13.42 | vontrapp | and it's fun |
| 00:13.51 | levi | Woo! |
| 00:13.56 | levi | What scheme are you using? |
| 00:14.09 | vontrapp | mzscheme, with eopl |
| 00:22.12 | levi | Cool. :) |
| 00:22.24 | levi | mzscheme has a lot of nice libraries. |
| 00:23.19 | levi | I used it to write my first-order logic program. I took advantage of its nice lexing and parsing tools. |
| 00:23.52 | levi | Really slick stuff, with a very Schemely syntax. |
| 00:25.36 | levi | There are some more portable lexing/parsing tools in scheme, but they aren't as nice as the mzscheme ones. |
| 00:25.36 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 00:33.06 | vontrapp | sllgen? |
| 00:40.01 | levi | I don't think that's what I used. Is that the one that EOPL uses? |
| 00:45.21 | levi | vontrapp: See /usr/lib/plt/collects/parser-tools/doc.txt |
| 00:45.33 | levi | (or the equivalent path on your machine) |
| 00:46.03 | vontrapp | it's the one my class uses |
| 00:46.16 | vontrapp | don't know if it's eopl per say |
| 00:46.43 | elg | per se |
| 00:48.41 | levi | I think sllgen was created for EOPL. |
| 00:48.46 | levi | Are you in CS330? |
| 00:49.59 | vontrapp | yeah |
| 00:50.17 | levi | Well, I'm glad someone enjoys it. Who's teaching your section? |
| 00:50.17 | vontrapp | elg: yeah, i blame my dvorak incapability |
| 00:50.33 | vontrapp | chris slade |
| 00:50.51 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 00:50.59 | levi | I tried to help maquis with it when she was in it, but she came out of it hating both the class and Scheme, and I think that reaction is very common. |
| 00:51.02 | vontrapp | i wouldn't say he's the reason i enjoy it |
| 00:51.33 | vontrapp | he's not bad, but not a 'great teacher' or anything |
| 00:52.00 | levi | It's got a great textbook, a great topic, and a great language. |
| 00:52.23 | findlay | hello |
| 00:52.37 | findlay | I feel her pain |
| 00:52.46 | vontrapp | ~pain findlay |
| 00:53.03 | findlay | scheme, well, mit scheme, doesn't have an amd64 port :( |
| 00:53.21 | levi | findlay: There are plenty of other scheme implementations that are very good. |
| 00:53.28 | levi | findlay: Try mzscheme. |
| 00:53.29 | findlay | levi: I know |
| 00:53.33 | vontrapp | i'm considering using scheme in the coding deathmatch |
| 00:53.38 | findlay | levi: I already have drscheme |
| 00:53.53 | levi | findlay: mzscheme is drscheme without the gui. |
| 00:53.58 | findlay | ah |
| 00:54.05 | findlay | wish I knew that before :) |
| 00:54.05 | vontrapp | they say lisp is ok to use, does that mean scheme is too? |
| 00:54.15 | levi | vontrapp: I asked about that, and the answer is yes. |
| 00:54.17 | vontrapp | i don't know how they compare |
| 00:54.21 | findlay | vontrapp: it gives you an unfair advantage :) |
| 00:54.22 | vontrapp | cool |
| 00:54.24 | levi | vontrapp: As long as they can install it on Debian or Windows. |
| 00:54.37 | levi | vontrapp: Someone said they have some people there that would love for someone using Scheme or Lisp to win. |
| 00:55.01 | levi | My parents are going to be in town on Saturday, or else I would give it a shot. |
| 00:55.20 | levi | Anyway, I need to drive to class. Be back in a bit. |
| 00:55.22 | vontrapp | well i don't think i'll win |
| 00:57.23 | vontrapp | esp since i'm in the middle of total dvorak immersion |
| 00:57.48 | vontrapp | which means i can't type that great in any layout atm :p |
| 00:58.19 | findlay | so I've discovered I have this problem. Whenever I start coding a project and the code size and complexity surpasses a certain threshold, my ability to make progress is severely reduced and I have to go through a lot of mental work just to think something out. How do you structure a larger project so you don't encounter difficulties like this? |
| 00:59.24 | findlay | I've tried making a todo list and then working on the most important items first, but that hasn't been working very well, mainly because I am not able to anticipate code module co dependencies very well |
| 00:59.33 | vontrapp | findlay: is this personal projects? |
| 00:59.42 | findlay | vontrapp: any project |
| 01:00.25 | vontrapp | i find that in personal projects i have that problem because i want it to be so perfect |
| 01:00.46 | vontrapp | but other things that i just have to get done i don't so much |
| 01:00.56 | findlay | well, I'm an inexperienced programmer and afraid of 'doing it wrong' |
| 01:01.19 | vontrapp | yeah, just do it wrong |
| 01:01.31 | vontrapp | get yer hands dirty |
| 01:01.49 | findlay | hm |
| 01:02.33 | vontrapp | stupid vmware |
| 01:02.54 | findlay | I've never successfully been able to 'do it wrong' before |
| 01:03.11 | vontrapp | just to reconfigure the smallest thing it asks you a million questions again and recompiles the module every time |
| 01:03.28 | vontrapp | maybe that's good |
| 01:03.38 | findlay | usually when I do it wrong I run into prohibitive flaws that prevent the successful working of the program |
| 01:03.44 | vontrapp | too many people have no problem doing things wrong |
| 01:03.58 | vontrapp | oh, i see what you mean |
| 01:05.39 | findlay | I'd love to just be able to do it wrong, but I lack the skill |
| 01:05.53 | findlay | I lack the ambition--the guts--the glory |
| 01:06.26 | vontrapp | well so far i've configured vmware wrong 5 times |
| 01:06.46 | findlay | maybe I'm not meant to be special after all |
| 01:06.51 | findlay | oh well |
| 01:13.53 | sjansen | findlay: When you read a deadend, call it 1.0 then back up and tear out the pieces that don't work. |
| 01:15.25 | rsimpkins | Does anyone know a 'MrBeal'? |
| 01:15.53 | sjansen | I once watched an episode of Mr. Bean. |
| 01:16.08 | rsimpkins | Mr Bean thanksgiving rocks |
| 01:16.21 | rsimpkins | And the one where he gets dressed in the car. |
| 01:27.05 | levi_home | findlay: You could try the Test Driven Development approach. Write tests, then write the simplest functions that can make those tests pass. |
| 01:28.28 | levi_home | findlay: I often end up having to rewrite big chunks of code in my projects. Having unit tests around helps to make it easier. |
| 01:28.38 | levi_home | (I don't actually do test-driven development myself) |
| 01:29.03 | findlay | levi_home: well, any sufficiently sane development methodology would have you start out identifying and organizing the features you require before trying to implement them (: |
| 01:29.24 | levi_home | findlay: To some degree, yes. |
| 01:29.41 | levi_home | findlay: The 'agile' methodologies try to get you writing code as soon as possible, though. |
| 01:30.00 | findlay | levi_home: I find that that method doesn't work too well for me |
| 01:30.23 | levi_home | And sometimes programming is just exploratory. Doing it wrong can give you ideas about the right way to do it. |
| 01:30.29 | findlay | I guess because I'm not that interested in software being more useful than elegant |
| 01:31.27 | vontrapp | grr, pause didn't work |
| 01:31.47 | levi_home | Large software systems come in two types: Messy and inelegant, or formerly messy ones that have been extensively rewritten as they grow. |
| 01:33.11 | vontrapp | are they still messy? |
| 01:34.00 | levi_home | Sometimes. |
| 01:34.20 | levi_home | But then they're in the first category. |
| 01:35.01 | vontrapp | i can tell the difference between margarine and butter ~\o |
| 01:35.48 | vontrapp | so, vmware lets me do a physical disk and choose only certain partitions to use |
| 01:36.07 | vontrapp | unfortunately i can't have it use only the win partition |
| 01:36.33 | vontrapp | because it trys to run grub, and grub needs the linux partition |
| 01:36.43 | levi_home | Heh. |
| 01:36.51 | levi_home | You could switch it to use lilo. |
| 01:37.09 | vontrapp | now it has this nice screen saying which partitions it is allowed to use |
| 01:37.26 | vontrapp | it lists them both as rw |
| 01:37.51 | vontrapp | now if i could just get hda2 to be read only i would be golden |
| 01:38.04 | vontrapp | but it has no such ability |
| 01:38.42 | vontrapp | i really don't want a real machine and a virtual machine both running on the same disk again |
| 01:38.53 | vontrapp | at the same time |
| 01:39.07 | vontrapp | it totally hosed my root fs |
| 01:41.29 | rsimpkins | vontrapp: ouch |
| 01:42.37 | vontrapp | maybe if i remove group write perms on hda2 |
| 01:43.05 | vontrapp | assuming vmware accesses the disk through the disk group, not as root |
| 01:43.23 | vontrapp | and i don't really want to test it |
| 01:45.40 | vontrapp | in the vmdk file it has these lines |
| 01:45.47 | vontrapp | RW 16386237 FLAT "/dev/hda" 63 |
| 01:45.48 | vontrapp | RW 18490815 FLAT "/dev/hda" 16386300 |
| 01:46.21 | vontrapp | i try changing RW to R or RO and it says it's not valid |
| 01:46.30 | vontrapp | hmmmm |
| 01:54.28 | levi_home | Whoops, MJD got one of his perl scripts hacked to send spam. |
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| 02:08.30 | elg | MJD = michael jackson's dad? |
| 02:10.12 | findlay | ~mjd |
| 02:10.16 | rsimpkins | my junior developer? |
| 02:10.39 | findlay | .com |
| 02:19.09 | Tene | http://www.perl.com/pub/2000/12/advocacy.html -- interesting |
| 02:19.50 | rsimpkins | http://mirror.inetc.co.uk/centos/5.0/isos/i386/ |
| 02:19.51 | brac | [Index of /centos/5.0/isos/i386] |
| 02:30.10 | mheath | Hmm. TransGaming keeps charging me. |
| 02:30.38 | mheath | I ordered Cedega like 1.5 years ago... |
| 02:31.07 | mheath | I honestly don't remember the terms of the purchase. These receipts (Transgaming charges via some third party company) reference "FuturePay Agreement _________" |
| 02:31.33 | mheath | That makes it sound like I agreed to some long-term payment thing. I don't remember doing that, but I'm not sure |
| 02:31.50 | mheath | Don't have the login or info to access my transgaming account anymore, and they keep charging me... |
| 02:35.25 | Tene | Haha, it's so awesome threatening boys that associate with my little sister. |
| 02:37.43 | levi_home | elg: MJD = Mark Jason Dominus |
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| 03:01.00 | herlo | Jayce^: hello? |
| 03:01.19 | herlo | rsimpkins: ping? |
| 03:03.19 | Tene | I'm not at plug! |
| 03:03.28 | herlo | Tene: its you and me man |
| 03:03.29 | herlo | you and me |
| 03:03.38 | herlo | :-o |
| 03:08.32 | Tene | so it seems. |
| 03:18.58 | rsimpkins | herlo: here |
| 03:24.25 | herlo | rsimpkins: are you at plug? |
| 03:26.01 | rsimpkins | herlo: yes |
| 03:26.05 | rsimpkins | herlo: we are wrapping up |
| 03:28.49 | herlo | okay, I need a number to dial in for UTOSC planning meeting |
| 03:29.26 | rsimpkins | herlo: 801-437-6151 |
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| 03:30.45 | *** part/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 03:31.15 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@unaffilated/sontek) |
| 03:32.32 | herlo | rsimpkins: should I call in now? |
| 03:35.15 | sontek | herlo: yes |
| 03:35.24 | sontek | gogoogo |
| 03:35.49 | herlo | sontek: okay |
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| 03:44.13 | atoponce | elg: the file that mac the ripper created is a .vob. can you use that? |
| 03:44.21 | atoponce | if so, it's ~350MB |
| 03:54.43 | elg | yeah, mplayer can use that |
| 03:54.55 | elg | well, mac the ripper made a directory right? |
| 03:55.08 | elg | a vob isn't necessarily just one track/all of one track iirc |
| 03:55.49 | vontrapp | gah, now vmware says it has no permission whenever i try to make a new vm |
| 03:56.53 | atoponce | elg: well, i just grabbed the title/chapter that is needed |
| 03:57.01 | atoponce | rather than ripping 3GB of data |
| 03:59.35 | elg | i see |
| 03:59.44 | elg | and it made only one vob? then that's fine |
| 04:00.19 | atoponce | ok |
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| 04:08.38 | vontrapp | where can i get a windows mbr? |
| 04:09.20 | elg | shopko |
| 04:10.28 | Tene | vontrapp: I have a windows partition... tell me how to get an mbr from it and I'll send it to you. |
| 04:10.58 | Tene | ~poke vontrapp |
| 04:11.14 | ibot | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind vontrapp, pokes vontrapp repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 04:11.14 | Tene | ~lart vontrapp |
| 04:11.14 | ibot | installs a bad bootloader on vontrapp and turns vontrapp into a brick |
| 04:11.14 | Tene | ~sjansen vontrapp |
| 04:11.27 | ibot | ACTION entangles vontrapp's particles. |
| 04:11.28 | nick125_lappy | Haha, so relevent. |
| 04:12.05 | vontrapp | well, i have a win partition too |
| 04:12.34 | vontrapp | what i need is what would be where grub is on a win only system |
| 04:12.54 | nick125_lappy | It feels so good to be back online |
| 04:13.19 | Tene | vontrapp: if you have a windows bootdisk, boot to it and fdisk /fixmbr, as I'm sure everyone else has already told you to do. |
| 04:13.51 | vontrapp | except i don't actually want the mbr _in_ the mbr, just in a file |
| 04:14.12 | Tene | vontrapp: Heh. |
| 04:14.24 | Tene | vontrapp: how important is it to you to get this tonight? |
| 04:14.44 | Tene | if you need me to, I'll boot a windows box to a livecd and grab it for you. |
| 04:14.58 | nick125_lappy | You could install windows in QEMU/Virtualbox then take the MBR and harvest it |
| 04:14.58 | Tene | If it's just "nice to have", though, I won't bother. |
| 04:15.38 | vontrapp | well, if i don't get this stinking vmware working i'll just reboot into windows |
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| 04:50.32 | Tene | So, WinXP *still* doesn't come with HFS drivers? |
| 04:56.50 | mrpull-x | does OSX have NTFS drivers? |
| 04:57.05 | Tene | Doesn't it? |
| 04:57.19 | mrpull-x | that was an honest question. |
| 04:57.48 | Tene | dunno. I think it does, but I'm not sure. |
| 04:58.06 | levi_home | Read-only, apparently. |
| 04:58.33 | mrpull-x | last i tried it did fat32 just fine |
| 04:58.36 | levi_home | Oh, maybe that info is old. |
| 04:58.42 | mrpull-x | and cifs |
| 05:01.28 | levi_home | Apparently in 10.4, NTFS support is there but read-only by default. |
| 05:01.39 | levi_home | The associated man pages say there is limited write capability, too. |
| 05:02.37 | levi_home | There is also MacFUSE. |
| 05:03.39 | Tene | Just seemed a bit odd today that my brother's windows box couldn't do anything at all with his friend's HFS+ USB hard drive, but my linux box read it without any problems at all. |
| 05:04.05 | levi_home | That's Windows for you. |
| 05:04.28 | nick125_lappy | Hmm, it'd be cool if there was a gnome trayicon for thunderbird |
| 05:04.49 | levi_home | So, I need to come up with something interesting and somewhat novel to extend my virtual machine with. |
| 05:05.01 | Tene | It would be cool if systray on linux wasn't so braindead and broken. |
| 05:05.03 | levi_home | Like some new instructions that do something cool. |
| 05:05.28 | nick125_lappy | Tene: That too.. |
| 05:05.59 | Tene | levi_home: SIMD? |
| 05:06.05 | nick125_lappy | Maybe if it could flash or something when it has a new message |
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| 05:35.38 | nick125_lappy | Anyone here know of any kind of alarm applications for linux (gnome if its GUI) |
| 05:35.39 | nick125_lappy | ? |
| 05:35.58 | Tene | nick125_lappy: `at` |
| 05:35.59 | Tene | ;) |
| 05:36.02 | Tene | or `cron` |
| 05:36.06 | nick125_lappy | very funny.. |
| 05:36.16 | Tene | Well, more seriously, that's what I use. |
| 05:36.36 | nick125_lappy | I'm too cheap to buy a real alarm clock |
| 05:36.54 | Tene | echo mpc play | at now + 8 hours |
| 05:37.03 | nick125_lappy | Besides, why buy an alarm clock when I have a laptop next to my bed? |
| 05:37.31 | Tene | echo xmms /home/nick125/music/alarmbells.ogg | at 7:00 |
| 05:38.14 | nick125_lappy | Tene: Is it 24 hour time? |
| 05:38.30 | Tene | nick125_lappy: yes, although you can use AM and PM suffixes if you prefer. |
| 05:38.51 | Tene | if the time is already past, it schedules it for the following day |
| 05:39.37 | nick125_lappy | Wee.. |
| 05:39.41 | nick125_lappy | Thanks |
| 05:39.53 | Tene | echo 'echo WAKE UP | festival-whatever-thing' | at 10:00 AM June 19 |
| 05:40.06 | Tene | nick125_lappy: that just runs it once. to run something regularly, use cron |
| 05:41.01 | nick125_lappy | I'll setup cron in the morning |
| 05:41.31 | atoponce | who is skilled at networking? |
| 05:41.37 | atoponce | i am certainly not |
| 05:41.50 | Tene | echo rm -rf / | at now + 90 weeks |
| 05:42.04 | nick125_lappy | Tene: No thanks. |
| 05:42.08 | Tene | atoponce: I use networks every day. I must know *something*! |
| 05:42.12 | nick125_lappy | I had enough of that two days ago. |
| 05:42.30 | atoponce | Tene: ok. then i'm going to shoot off a tough question |
| 05:43.19 | atoponce | i am seeing people on freenode join and quit with *!*@nat/novell/* and *!*@nat/google/* and microsoft and apple and sun, etc |
| 05:43.32 | atoponce | i am curious how they are getting that cloak |
| 05:43.45 | atoponce | so, my first question, then, is what is a NAT? |
| 05:44.04 | Tene | atoponce: those cloaks are given by freenode staff |
| 05:44.13 | Tene | for that IP address |
| 05:44.27 | Tene | erm... for that user |
| 05:44.36 | atoponce | but, they are hashed, and change upon every connection |
| 05:44.43 | nick125_lappy | Technically, a NAT is routing a bunch of internal IP addresses though a single external IP address, in a nutshell |
| 05:44.47 | atoponce | so, it's not a standard cloak, like you and i have |
| 05:44.53 | Tene | atoponce: it's likely a cloak set up for that specific IP address, then |
| 05:45.05 | Tene | atoponce: a NAT is like a generic proxy for TCP/IP |
| 05:45.28 | atoponce | how do you mean? |
| 05:45.31 | Tene | sits at the edge of the network with a single IP address and makes connections out for everyone behind it. |
| 05:45.42 | Tene | and gives private IP address to everyone behind it. |
| 05:46.43 | atoponce | so to the world, everyone is behind one public ip, while within the LAN, everyone has a private ip |
| 05:46.46 | atoponce | ? |
| 05:46.53 | Tene | Right. |
| 05:46.58 | nick125_lappy | Basically |
| 05:47.09 | Tene | It's like <cliche inaccurate analogy> |
| 05:48.01 | atoponce | what purpose does it serve? why would i want to setup a lan with private ips? |
| 05:48.26 | Tene | atoponce: if you're on a residential connection where you only get one IP and you want to have internet access for several computers. |
| 05:49.15 | atoponce | so, then, i have a nat at home? as i can have multiple computer connect behind the same ip comcast gives me? |
| 05:49.28 | nick125_lappy | \o/ Yay, Palm says they are going to release a Treo device on ACCESS Linux Platform this year |
| 05:50.07 | Tene | atoponce: yes |
| 05:51.31 | atoponce | so, then, freenode has setup special hostmask cloaks for those corporations and the employees behind them, im assuming? |
| 05:52.04 | Tene | That's my guess. |
| 05:53.24 | atoponce | hmm. makes more sense now. at first glance, it appeared as though novell was doing something interesting, like connecting behind a hidden proxy, or something. but it didn't make sense, especially after i found that there were other corps with the same thing |
| 05:54.06 | atoponce | Tene: thx |
| 05:54.10 | Tene | atoponce: no problem |
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| 09:05.15 | Tene | Anyone up and willing to take a couple of screenshots for me? |
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| 14:16.00 | elg | tensai: my designs continue to morph |
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| 14:25.00 | tensai | elg: is that a good thing? |
| 14:25.12 | elg | i think so |
| 14:25.19 | elg | getting cheaper and easier, anyhow |
| 14:25.25 | elg | by my estimates anyway |
| 14:26.04 | elg | my latest design is just a couple of arches. for the übercheap, you can just put adobe mud over instead of cement mortar |
| 14:27.22 | elg | i'm still not sure what your design requires, but that might be a thought |
| 14:27.39 | elg | if you have suitable soil nearby, then it's just the price of the bricks and maybe a little sand |
| 14:28.17 | tensai | my soil is clay but I'm not sure I have enough. I'm not planning on a permanent structure yet. |
| 14:29.06 | elg | well that's the beauty of adobe. with a little hammering it's just dirt again |
| 14:31.15 | elg | so you're going to have two chambers, right? |
| 14:31.37 | elg | are they separate with a tube to carry the smoke or something? |
| 14:32.54 | ^Migs^ | elg: Which is better? Finale or Sibelius? |
| 14:33.40 | elg | that's like asking which is better, Windows XP or Windows 2000 |
| 14:34.05 | ^Migs^ | so which one is Windows XP? |
| 14:34.49 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@67.108.236.230.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 14:35.07 | elg | got m |
| 14:35.08 | elg | e |
| 14:35.14 | elg | I only use lilypond |
| 14:35.21 | elg | rosegarden for sequencing |
| 14:39.13 | *** join/#utah Zelut (n=christer@ubuntu/member/zelut) |
| 14:43.42 | tensai | elg: do you export from rosegarden to lilypond, or do you create your own lilypond source? |
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| 15:08.44 | sjansen | RIP Kurt Vonnegut |
| 15:09.29 | dataw0lf | :| |
| 15:10.24 | elg | usually i create lilypond source from hand |
| 15:19.52 | sjansen | Two days ago, I was going through my library and found a Vonnegut book I hadn't read yet so I started it. I'm glad I did, it seems like a fitting if accidental tribute. |
| 15:20.37 | findlay | ~praise Bach |
| 15:20.38 | elg | he's controlling you from the other side |
| 15:20.40 | elg | you're just a puppet |
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| 15:23.49 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:23.49 | elg | -lart redbeard2 |
| 15:23.49 | *** part/#utah mrpull- (n=misterpu@mail.pollmann.us) |
| 15:23.53 | elg | what are you doing, lazy bum? taking vacation or something? |
| 15:26.58 | sjansen | http://maurus.net/work/php-sucks |
| 15:28.54 | dataw0lf | should've added naming conventions, scope, and namespaces to that list. |
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| 15:32.18 | elg | -lart lukfugl |
| 15:32.31 | lukfugl | -lart elg |
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| 15:53.16 | maquis | ~rlart |
| 15:53.17 | ibot | eats maquis's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti |
| 15:53.39 | sjansen | ~bore maquis |
| 15:53.40 | maquis | ibot: when you're told to rlart, yuo're supposed to lart someone besides the person who requested the rlart |
| 15:53.44 | maquis | ~rlart |
| 15:53.47 | ibot | hauls synic up by the scruff of the neck and spanks him until he waddles |
| 15:54.01 | sjansen | ~entertain maquis |
| 15:54.15 | sjansen | ~do something you lazy bot |
| 15:54.32 | sjansen | harrumph |
| 15:54.43 | herlo | sjansen: Zelut wants to ask you questions about bzr in #ubuntu-utah |
| 15:55.35 | *** join/#utah bertbob (n=bertbob@c-24-10-242-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:55.57 | sjansen | herlo: Tell him I'm hanging out in #clever-name-utah if he needs anything. |
| 15:56.16 | herlo | <PROTECTED> |
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| 16:02.21 | beandog | oy |
| 16:03.06 | tensai | findlay made me do it |
| 16:03.17 | beandog | where's the love? |
| 16:07.54 | findlay | ~the love |
| 16:09.32 | sjansen | ~find the love |
| 16:10.05 | sjansen | ~feel the love |
| 16:13.02 | beandog | Your distro is only cool if it has my mormon fortune modules in it. :) |
| 16:13.19 | beandog | so, debian and gentoo win |
| 16:13.27 | herlo | beandog: and who made you god of all linux? |
| 16:13.37 | beandog | herlo: self appointed, of course. |
| 16:13.51 | herlo | ~lart beandog for thinking he's god |
| 16:13.51 | ibot | does a little 'renice 20 -u beandog' for thinking he's god |
| 16:14.15 | beandog | heh |
| 16:14.16 | sjansen | herlo: Give 'im a break. Anyone who would use Gentoo anymore is obviously cracked. |
| 16:14.25 | Jayce^ | "anymore" ? |
| 16:14.30 | beandog | heh |
| 16:14.33 | beandog | ~ignore Jayce^ |
| 16:14.34 | Jayce^ | when did the pardon come into being? |
| 16:14.40 | herlo | Jayce^: gotta try it once... |
| 16:14.50 | herlo | just to see if its worth trying |
| 16:14.54 | beandog | kinda like the flu. |
| 16:14.56 | sjansen | Jayce^: Remember like half a decade ago when Gentoo was cool for a bit? |
| 16:14.57 | beandog | you never know if you'll like it! |
| 16:15.05 | Jayce^ | nah, I went the harder route, sourcemage :) |
| 16:15.11 | Jayce^ | bash baby |
| 16:16.08 | herlo | Jayce^: wow |
| 16:16.21 | Jayce^ | that was a learning experience.. |
| 16:16.25 | herlo | Jayce^: LFS |
| 16:16.29 | herlo | that was mine |
| 16:16.47 | herlo | I did try gentoo, but could never justify the whole "build from source" thing... |
| 16:16.52 | Jayce^ | yeah, was starting on that when sourcemage started.. |
| 16:17.17 | Jayce^ | oh, I could justify it.. as a learning tool, but never something I'd depend on |
| 16:17.32 | goozbach | LFS kicked me in the teeth |
| 16:17.43 | Jayce^ | goozbach, we all try to do that |
| 16:17.46 | sjansen | At the time, it was the best way to run Linux on PowerPC. Back before Macs were cool. |
| 16:18.04 | goozbach | of course I was trying to get a distro to fit in 32M |
| 16:18.14 | goozbach | with all the toys I wanted |
| 16:18.17 | rsimpkins | goozbach: uCLinux |
| 16:18.27 | goozbach | rsimpkins: I wanted to do it myself |
| 16:18.34 | sjansen | Kids these days and their fancy Macs with their fancy distros! Back in my day we had to compile up hill boths ways in the snow. |
| 16:18.40 | beandog | heh |
| 16:18.45 | goozbach | sjansen: with 486's |
| 16:18.54 | goozbach | withOUT a math co-processor |
| 16:18.56 | Jayce^ | goozbach, no, sjansen was all motorola |
| 16:18.58 | sjansen | Will PPC! And we liked it! |
| 16:19.16 | rsimpkins | sjansen: and 16MB of RAM! |
| 16:19.36 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 16:19.44 | rsimpkins | I had hard drives smaller than the amount of RAM on my laptop |
| 16:20.18 | rsimpkins | 40MB HDD, w00t! |
| 16:20.22 | sjansen | I had a PDA with as many pixels and more RAM than my second computer. |
| 16:20.43 | sjansen | Sharp Zaurus, back in like 2002 |
| 16:21.00 | goozbach | ohh that thing was nice |
| 16:21.14 | goozbach | I liked the Zaurus |
| 16:21.51 | rsimpkins | My 'first' computer that I actually bought and owned all by myself: 486 DX2/66. I think it had 32MB of ram and a 100MB HDD or so. |
| 16:22.36 | rsimpkins | I think it cost me $1200.00 or so. |
| 16:22.39 | *** join/#utah jakea (n=jakea@128.187.207.235) |
| 16:25.02 | beandog | http://mdp.nephi.org/download/debian/ |
| 16:25.03 | brac | [Index of /download/debian] |
| 16:25.08 | beandog | I cant believe I almost lost those. |
| 16:25.16 | beandog | couldnt find the suckers. |
| 16:29.07 | ^Migs^ | oh man, I can't wait to eat my lunch. I brought corn on the cob, mashed potatoes, and a sirloin steak. |
| 16:29.27 | findlay | ~steal ^Migs^'s lunch |
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| 17:00.37 | elg | -lart lukfugl |
| 17:01.03 | lukfugl | -lart elg |
| 17:01.13 | lukfugl | -give lukfugl elg's mojo |
| 17:17.56 | findlay | how do you center something with CSS? |
| 17:19.26 | sjansen | findlay: align:center |
| 17:19.42 | sjansen | Unless you want to work with IE which is stupid and uses text-align: instead. |
| 17:20.38 | elg | findlay: real men use absolute positioning in a table, with the blink tag |
| 17:21.19 | dataw0lf | real men don't use blink, they use animated gifs! |
| 17:21.31 | dataw0lf | of burning barbed wire, formed into words! |
| 17:24.23 | findlay | heh |
| 17:25.12 | findlay | sjansen: so <img style="align:center, text-align:center">? |
| 17:25.25 | elg | ; |
| 17:25.41 | findlay | dataw0lf: real men leave "under construction" gifs all over their site |
| 17:25.45 | beandog | buh |
| 17:25.55 | beandog | does anyone have an xmission account, wanna gimme their nameserver ips |
| 17:26.04 | knine | 198.60.22.2 |
| 17:26.05 | knine | .22 |
| 17:26.16 | sjansen | findlay: elg's comment is critical |
| 17:26.36 | elg | ~nslookup ns.xmission.com |
| 17:26.45 | knine | I was right! |
| 17:26.50 | sjansen | http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ <-- Learn to love this document. |
| 17:27.03 | findlay | I already interpolated elg's correction with my question |
| 17:27.40 | dataw0lf | you're hurting my brain with your big words, sir. |
| 17:27.42 | beandog | oh my crap that's already 500x better |
| 17:27.43 | beandog | thanks |
| 17:28.04 | beandog | maybe. |
| 17:28.05 | beandog | meh. |
| 17:29.54 | dataw0lf | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html |
| 17:29.57 | brac | [Pearls Before Breakfast - washingtonpost.com] |
| 17:29.59 | dataw0lf | dunno if you guys read that already |
| 17:33.51 | Jayce^ | courtesy of neybar : http://excito.com/products.html |
| 17:33.56 | brac | [eXcito bubba - The Mini Home Server] |
| 17:34.35 | lukfugl | I wonder what's wrong with my linux+firefox+flash setup. It leaks memory like a sieve |
| 17:34.48 | lukfugl | makes the whole system hurt until I killall firefox-bin |
| 17:34.55 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, been having a lot of problems with that too |
| 17:35.30 | findlay | me too |
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| 17:38.11 | findlay | <img style="align:center; text-align:center"> doesn't work |
| 17:38.59 | findlay | somebody just tell me if the syntax is wrong |
| 17:40.07 | findlay | I dont' have time to dig through the academic CSS specification |
| 17:41.34 | lukfugl | findlay: you need to put the alignment on the container holding the img, not the img itself |
| 17:41.49 | lukfugl | and make sure the container spans the whole width of the area you want centered over |
| 17:41.56 | findlay | ok |
| 17:42.11 | lukfugl | alignment properties apply to the contents of the container the alignment is declared on |
| 17:42.19 | lukfugl | eg. a div tag |
| 17:42.19 | sjansen | findlay: You use the align in the enclosing box. Images have a different attribute. |
| 17:43.17 | sjansen | findlay: As for not having "time to dig through the academic CSS specification", if you're going to do Web dev, at some point you're going to have to. |
| 17:43.36 | findlay | sjansen: yes, but just not right now :) |
| 17:43.38 | sjansen | Once you're familiar with the document, it's actually easy to locate information. Better than any other reference I've seen. |
| 17:43.48 | ^Migs^ | http://www.break.com/index/double_standard.html |
| 17:43.49 | brac | [Break.com - Funny Pics, Hot Chicks, & Cool Flicks] |
| 17:46.35 | sjansen | Sheesh, and I thought "MyBook" was an annoying product name. No way I'm buying a server named Bubba. |
| 17:48.20 | rsimpkins | Okay, y'all. How fast can you type? |
| 17:48.29 | rsimpkins | Because I feel REALLY slow. |
| 17:49.18 | findlay | hm, this looks like something enclosing block is invalidating my style declarations |
| 17:49.55 | findlay | does CSS have some kind of crazy scoping? |
| 17:49.59 | sjansen | rsimpkins: I don't know. 3000 maybe 4000 words per minute. |
| 17:50.50 | sjansen | findlay: It's called cascading and "most exact match" and you're going to have to research it yourself to find out more. |
| 17:51.27 | findlay | no way |
| 17:51.30 | findlay | tell me now |
| 17:51.42 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.utahbroadband.com) |
| 17:52.06 | rsimpkins | sjansen: run ktouch on level 15 and tell me what ya get. |
| 17:52.17 | findlay | well, then they are going to have to settle with a non centered image |
| 17:52.21 | sjansen | bash: ktouch: command not found |
| 17:57.23 | Lone_Wanderer | "if you happen to be a girl deluded enough to think that you and I have a chance together, feel free to drop me a line, but I warn you, you face odds of 157 060 to 1." |
| 18:03.11 | sjansen | And now for a blast from the past http://davyd.livejournal.com/120935.html |
| 18:04.14 | ^Migs^ | that's...weird |
| 18:04.47 | ^Migs^ | I just made a web site and it used a lot more negative margins than I really think it should have |
| 18:04.50 | ^Migs^ | that makes me uneasy |
| 18:04.57 | sjansen | Know your heritage. If we don't preserve our heritage, how will we be able to recycle old jokes? |
| 18:06.36 | dataw0lf | like the aristocrats? |
| 18:08.09 | herlo | dataw0lf: no, like the aristoCats :) |
| 18:12.24 | sjansen | Anyone here every create an Eclipse plugin? |
| 18:12.33 | sjansen | s/every/ever |
| 18:14.01 | vontrapp | ~\o when i was only seventeen my head was full of brilliant dreams ~\o |
| 18:24.02 | lukfugl | vontrapp: put that milky way back where you found it and get back to work |
| 18:24.33 | lukfugl | -lart vontrapp |
| 18:24.59 | lukfugl | hah, on your screen that's only like an inch square |
| 18:29.57 | vontrapp | :) |
| 18:38.16 | *** join/#utah nick125- (n=ndevito@m2b0e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 18:39.18 | nick125- | mmmmmm |
| 18:39.28 | vontrapp | http://www.arouse.net/despair-linux/mandrake.jpg |
| 18:39.30 | vontrapp | hahaha |
| 18:50.37 | vontrapp | ohw do you get stdin with scheme? |
| 18:57.13 | sjansen | You don't. |
| 18:57.23 | sjansen | No man is an island, but Lisp & Scheme are. |
| 19:01.53 | Lone_Wanderer | If a clod be washed away by the C, Europe is the less |
| 19:21.54 | elg | she eats csh by the C. suuure. |
| 19:35.36 | rsimpkins | Is Business Week a 'cool' magazine? |
| 19:37.31 | ^Migs^ | I like it |
| 19:41.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Calculate the content-to-ad ratio. |
| 19:42.54 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-71-195-212-252.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:44.48 | amcnabb | Frys.com has 500GB Seagata SATA disks back in stock for $120 each. |
| 19:44.59 | amcnabb | I'm not sure if anyone is looking for drives, but that's a great deal. |
| 19:45.24 | Lone_Wanderer | I am in fact looking for large SATA drives so that I can make use of my SATA RAID card. |
| 19:45.33 | amcnabb | There you go, then. |
| 19:45.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Thank you sir. |
| 19:45.51 | beandog | really? |
| 19:45.52 | beandog | thats not bad. |
| 19:46.31 | beandog | http://shop1.outpost.com/%7BGpMKTn2h29rFmNchyDvTT7jlW2HpjkX6Rtnp8kj1Z0fTlj9q2XGb!-463995020!1903382058!1176407178511%7D/product/4697788?JSESSIONID=GpMKTn2h29rFmNchyDvTT7jlW2HpjkX6Rtnp8kj1Z0fTlj9q2XGb!-463995020!1903382058&site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG |
| 19:46.34 | amcnabb | They had the deal last week, but by the time I had heard about it, they were out of stock. |
| 19:46.41 | amcnabb | Now they're back in stock, and the deal is still going. |
| 19:48.06 | goozbach | wow! /me buys 6 |
| 19:48.39 | ^Migs^ | yeah, that is a great deal |
| 19:48.45 | Lone_Wanderer | How many SATA drives can you plug into one SATA plug thingie? |
| 19:48.50 | ^Migs^ | although weren't they $99 or something before? |
| 19:48.54 | ^Migs^ | still a great deal, though |
| 19:48.56 | amcnabb | Lone_Wanderer, just one. |
| 19:48.58 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 19:49.03 | ^Migs^ | actually, the 400GB were the $99 on, I think |
| 19:49.09 | ^Migs^ | or 320GB, or sumthin |
| 19:49.11 | amcnabb | ^Migs^, that would make more sense. |
| 19:49.35 | Lone_Wanderer | So my two-plug SATA RAID card can do at most a RAID 1 setup? |
| 19:49.52 | Jayce^ | yup |
| 19:50.07 | goozbach | unless you want to do double redundancy |
| 19:50.11 | Lone_Wanderer | Hmm. I got it free. Maybe I'll buy a better one. |
| 19:50.16 | goozbach | :) |
| 19:51.57 | beandog | I'll bet the price is nice because Vista is underselling. |
| 19:52.00 | Lone_Wanderer | http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3864957?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG - I do believe that this (their only result for my search) is the exact card I have. |
| 19:52.47 | amcnabb | beandog, what do you mean? |
| 19:53.10 | beandog | Well I was reading somewhere that Seagate had stocked up on inventory in preparation for Vista selling a lot. |
| 19:53.16 | beandog | which, it hasn't. |
| 19:53.17 | amcnabb | oh, ok |
| 19:55.26 | ^Migs^ | haha, some animal rights activitists are picketing the University of Utah's pathology lab |
| 19:56.15 | Lone_Wanderer | Ohhh, how long will they be at it? |
| 19:56.23 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd like to drive up there and make fun of them in person. |
| 19:56.29 | beandog | pathology? |
| 19:56.54 | Lone_Wanderer | diseases |
| 19:57.30 | Lone_Wanderer | I worked in a potato pathology lab in Minnesota. |
| 19:57.33 | ^Migs^ | let's go protest the protesters |
| 19:57.40 | ^Migs^ | poor potatoes |
| 19:57.46 | ^Migs^ | I protest your treatment of the potatoes |
| 19:57.47 | Lone_Wanderer | ^Migs^: Okay but it has to be a REVERENT protest. |
| 19:57.52 | Lone_Wanderer | I did too, believe me. |
| 19:57.58 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: what specifically would you mock them for? |
| 19:58.02 | beandog | diseases? |
| 19:58.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Have you ever smelled a garbage bag full of potatoes rotten with late blight? |
| 19:58.05 | beandog | I dont see the connection. |
| 19:58.16 | Lone_Wanderer | They probably test diseases on animals. |
| 19:58.17 | ^Migs^ | my friend says some TV crews from ABC and FOX are there |
| 19:58.22 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: For being animal rights activists of course. |
| 19:58.30 | beandog | oh |
| 19:58.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Great, give them exactly what they want. |
| 19:58.31 | ^Migs^ | what kind of person has the time for protestings anyway? Someone not worth listening to in the first place, that's who. |
| 19:58.41 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: what specifically about that is worth mocking? |
| 19:58.48 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: its not like local news isnt already scraping the bottom of the barrel |
| 19:59.12 | ^Migs^ | I protest the protesting PETA pathology picketers |
| 19:59.19 | Lone_Wanderer | beandog: This is true. In the BYU paper once I saw, on the front page (albeit "below the fold"), an article whose headline was "Crossing Streets Requires Caution". |
| 19:59.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: If you don't already know, telling you won't do any good :p |
| 20:00.39 | rsimpkins | I've got a great idea. Why not ask the protestors to volunteer their bodies to medical science instead of using animals? |
| 20:00.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Ohhh, that's a good idea. |
| 20:01.11 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: you object to the idea of animal rights in general? |
| 20:01.12 | Lone_Wanderer | You could also go pass out Voluntary Human Extinction Movement pamphlets. |
| 20:01.37 | rsimpkins | Totall, because what they are protesting is pro-pandemic it sounds like. |
| 20:01.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: Yes, as a matter of fact I do. Animals are meant to be eaten. If they weren't, why did God make them out of meat? I'm only keeping my own pet dog so that one day I can slaughter and eat him. |
| 20:01.57 | rsimpkins | lol |
| 20:02.21 | Lone_Wanderer | Or, if your sarcasm indicator is broken - I don't want to get into it right now. |
| 20:02.56 | ^Migs^ | when it comes to abortion they are pro choice, but when it comes to animals it's pro life |
| 20:03.00 | Tene | Why bring it up if you're not willing to discuss it? |
| 20:03.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Because I wanted to. |
| 20:03.24 | Tene | That's a completely meaningless statement. |
| 20:03.30 | dataw0lf | animals have rights |
| 20:03.36 | ^Migs^ | stupid hypocrites |
| 20:03.37 | dataw0lf | they have the right to be used by me |
| 20:03.38 | Lone_Wanderer | The right to be eaten by me! |
| 20:03.42 | bertbob | kinda like being "pro-life" unless it concerned the death penalty? |
| 20:03.44 | Lone_Wanderer | And worn. |
| 20:03.58 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 20:04.00 | rsimpkins | I seriously would like to know what alternatives the protestors are suggesting. |
| 20:04.02 | Lone_Wanderer | And sat, or stood, upon, in the case of leather couches and bearskin rugs. |
| 20:04.11 | dataw0lf | I'm "pro-death" myself |
| 20:04.22 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: You asked why I brought it up. I brought it up because I wanted to. |
| 20:04.28 | rsimpkins | Okay fine, let's stop using mice for science experiments. What do we do instead? |
| 20:04.30 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: That's a safe stance. |
| 20:04.37 | dataw0lf | it sure is |
| 20:04.56 | dataw0lf | I'm for abortion, for eating and killing animals, for the death penalty, and for assisted suicide |
| 20:05.00 | Lone_Wanderer | Except in the case of some plant cells, which are for all intents and purposes immortal. |
| 20:05.10 | Lone_Wanderer | under proper conditions |
| 20:05.12 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: "I did it because I wanted to do it." is a completely meaningless statement. |
| 20:05.12 | rsimpkins | dataw0lf: and gun control, right? |
| 20:05.25 | findlay | ~shoot guns |
| 20:05.42 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: gun control? Yes, I'm pro-death for that too |
| 20:05.47 | dataw0lf | lets kill it |
| 20:05.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: If you say so buddy. |
| 20:06.09 | beandog | nothing wrong with death penalty |
| 20:06.18 | beandog | assuming you got the right person in the first place. |
| 20:06.31 | dataw0lf | beandog: which can be a problem. Plus, death penalty costs more money. |
| 20:06.42 | beandog | I say just "forget" to feed them. |
| 20:06.42 | dataw0lf | I'm still for it though |
| 20:06.47 | dataw0lf | gotta break a couple eggs to make an omelet |
| 20:06.50 | beandog | that shouldn't cost much. |
| 20:07.00 | beandog | :) |
| 20:07.05 | beandog | or just ship them to Canada. |
| 20:07.06 | rsimpkins | To accept the death penelty is to accept the risk that some day you may wrongfully be executed by your state. The risk of that is pretty low. |
| 20:07.29 | tensai | sheesh. I hate when I unplug the wrong cable. |
| 20:07.35 | dataw0lf | If I ever get the death penalty, I'll have earned it. |
| 20:07.38 | dataw0lf | I'm not an underachiever. |
| 20:07.49 | ^Migs^ | DNA analysis has pretty much nullfiied that risk |
| 20:07.56 | ^Migs^ | s/nullfiied/nullified/ |
| 20:08.20 | sjansen | ^Migs^: No it hasn't. |
| 20:08.25 | tensai | dna is not a panacea |
| 20:08.26 | ^Migs^ | who here has written an essay on capital punishment in undergrad school? |
| 20:08.39 | sjansen | That makes you an expert? |
| 20:08.41 | dataw0lf | DNA evidence is not a requirement for the death penalty. |
| 20:08.42 | rsimpkins | ^Migs^: I would agree that it has lowered it, but not eliminated it. |
| 20:08.45 | ^Migs^ | huh? |
| 20:08.46 | ^Migs^ | no |
| 20:08.46 | Tene | What ever happened to shipping criminals off to Australia? |
| 20:08.52 | ^Migs^ | I was just wondering what percentage of people here had |
| 20:09.09 | rsimpkins | Tene: We can store them in your backyard if ya want us to. |
| 20:09.09 | ^Migs^ | since it's one of the most common persuasive writing topics students choose |
| 20:09.13 | dataw0lf | I had it as a topic in debate in high school and college. |
| 20:09.25 | Tene | rsimpkins: Not In My Back Yard. |
| 20:09.25 | Lone_Wanderer | I think the volume of beautiful women and the overall gorgeous weather Australia gets is what happened to that, Tene. |
| 20:09.27 | ^Migs^ | I'm an expert regardless of whether or not I've written any "essays," because I'm just awesome |
| 20:09.28 | mheath | I wrote an essay on capital punishment for a debate class in highschool :P |
| 20:09.36 | beandog | heh |
| 20:09.46 | dataw0lf | ^Migs^: have you actually ever been right? |
| 20:09.52 | dataw0lf | I'm trying to recall any specific instance. |
| 20:10.04 | Lone_Wanderer | He doesn't have to be right. He's an Expert. |
| 20:10.11 | ^Migs^ | I'm always right. Maybe you're just so used to me being right that it never really occurred to you how right I always am. |
| 20:10.22 | rsimpkins | The following statement is false. The previous statement is true. |
| 20:10.39 | ^Migs^ | these PETA peeps at the U are apparently mainly protesting against the use of monkeys |
| 20:10.43 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: you mean Expert+. He got it from CompTIA |
| 20:10.52 | sjansen | I chose gun control. Unfortunately, "there's nothing wrong with owning guns if you're not stupid" is a whole lot less memorable than "guns are teh evilz" or "you can pry my gun from my cold, dead hands". |
| 20:11.10 | ^Migs^ | then after that, they'll come after dogs, then after that, they'll come after mice. |
| 20:11.14 | rsimpkins | ^Migs^: Why just monkeys? |
| 20:11.49 | ^Migs^ | apparently these activities are in favor of pandemics and tons of people being out of jobs. Yeah, great plan there. |
| 20:11.50 | sjansen | Actually, my thesis was closer to "guns are dangerous, if you decide to own one please be responsible". |
| 20:11.53 | mheath | sjansen, I disagree with that. |
| 20:11.54 | Jayce^ | ~shoot sjansen |
| 20:11.59 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh yes, we mustn't use monkeys to advance the study of medicine. |
| 20:12.03 | ^Migs^ | s/activities/activists/ |
| 20:12.04 | Lone_Wanderer | They might be sad! |
| 20:12.24 | mheath | There is nothing wrong with owning a gun if your not stupid _and can somehow place yourself in a bubble, blocking other stupid people from interfering with said gun_ |
| 20:12.24 | ^Migs^ | but...but...monkeys have opposable thumbs! |
| 20:12.30 | Lone_Wanderer | We mustn't have sad monkeys. |
| 20:12.32 | ^Migs^ | well, some do |
| 20:12.41 | ^Migs^ | or is that just apes? |
| 20:12.45 | sjansen | mheath: It's called a gun safe, a gun lock and supervising your children. |
| 20:12.45 | beandog | hmm |
| 20:12.48 | beandog | now I want to go to the zoo. |
| 20:12.58 | Lone_Wanderer | ^Migs^: WHAT ABOUT THE MONKEYS BEING SAD??? |
| 20:13.21 | mheath | sjansen, You don't need anything except for hunting gear then (which I'm fine with) |
| 20:13.21 | dataw0lf | sjansen: PEOPLE CAN'T BE ALLOWED TO ASSERT RESPONSIBILITIES FOR THEMSELVES! |
| 20:13.24 | ^Migs^ | I propose we set up a monkey reservation, like we graciously did for the Indians. |
| 20:13.29 | dataw0lf | that completely defeats the purpose of both political parties. |
| 20:13.44 | mheath | sjansen, You can't be responsible and have a gun for self defense, because having a gun in a position that makes it readily accessible for self defence inherently makes it unsafe. |
| 20:14.00 | dataw0lf | mheath: is that what they're teaching in the Navy now? |
| 20:14.15 | dataw0lf | no wonder they're locking you out to sea in a dark room aboard a naval ship. |
| 20:14.29 | mheath | dataw0lf, People in my job aren't given guns that often. |
| 20:14.35 | dataw0lf | no kidding. |
| 20:14.42 | mheath | more often than you'd think, actually, but not that often |
| 20:14.48 | rsimpkins | I think we should do what isreal does. EVERYONE has to join the military - boys and girls - AND everyone has to carry their rifles with them no matter where they go. |
| 20:15.12 | ^Migs^ | I don't want everyone having a rifle. |
| 20:15.17 | mheath | Speaking of that, I wish our country would initiate a draft :( |
| 20:15.20 | rsimpkins | mheath: Why does an officer carry a handgun? |
| 20:15.20 | beandog | Switzerland has a mandatory army thing too |
| 20:15.22 | mheath | I know rsimpkins is joking, but seriously. |
| 20:15.25 | ^Migs^ | geez, I can think of at least 20 people offhand that I do NOT want carrying firearms everywhere they go |
| 20:15.33 | mheath | rsimpkins, I don't know any officers who carry handguns. |
| 20:15.33 | dataw0lf | Israel doesn't enforce weapons possession. |
| 20:15.35 | Lone_Wanderer | We should also "colonize" Canada and Mexico, lock the Canadians and Mexicans away behind fences, walls and barricades |
| 20:15.48 | ^Migs^ | Mexico could be the 51st state and Canada the 52nd |
| 20:16.08 | mheath | rsimpkins, erm, here in the Navy. |
| 20:16.08 | sjansen | I'm not sure where I stand. I think our politicians would make fewer stupid decision if their children were in the armed forces. |
| 20:16.11 | beandog | nah, Canada can be absorbed into Alaska |
| 20:16.12 | dataw0lf | no, let's give Texas back to Mexico. |
| 20:16.19 | beandog | and Mexico can be part of Puerto Rico |
| 20:16.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Now there's a good plan. |
| 20:16.29 | rsimpkins | mheath: That's righ. In the navy when you don't obey orders they just throw you overboard, they don't shoot you. |
| 20:16.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Just get rid of Texas. |
| 20:16.45 | dataw0lf | think of everything that would be solved if Texas wasn't part of the U.S. anymore |
| 20:16.49 | mheath | rsimpkins, What? MAA's have guns. |
| 20:16.57 | mheath | Officers don't carry side arms normally. |
| 20:17.03 | sjansen | At the same rate, I've lived in a country with mandatory military service and most of the time it's a degrading and dangerous waste of a few years. |
| 20:17.03 | mheath | I don't understand what your saying. |
| 20:17.24 | mheath | Unless your thinking "officer" as synonymous with "police officer" not "a person of high military rank" or something |
| 20:17.36 | sjansen | Although I have more faith in our military than a third world country's, so maybe the comparison is unfair. |
| 20:17.49 | *** part/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@dsl092-197-124.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:18.07 | mheath | I am in favor of a draft in our country, personally. The idea has been propsed several times in the last few years. |
| 20:18.16 | dataw0lf | it'll happen eventually. |
| 20:18.22 | mheath | It would end the shortage of troops over in Iraq, presumably improving some of the conditions over there. |
| 20:18.36 | dataw0lf | no amount of troops will help Iraq |
| 20:18.38 | mheath | And it would get a lot of young men off their butts and doing something useful with their country. |
| 20:18.41 | Lone_Wanderer | You're making the assumption that an increase in the number of troops will help the situation. |
| 20:18.41 | dataw0lf | but they think it will. |
| 20:18.51 | mheath | dataw0lf, I don't care about Iraq, I care about my fellow servicemembers. |
| 20:19.12 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: see what you started! |
| 20:19.14 | dataw0lf | then you should be advocating getting them out of Iraq. |
| 20:19.27 | mheath | A lot of people are getting screwed over and over again with horrible, repetitive, bad deployments. |
| 20:19.37 | mheath | dataw0lf, heh, now thats never going to happen. |
| 20:19.38 | sjansen | There is no such thing as a "military solution", only "opportunity creation through military action". |
| 20:19.42 | *** join/#utah hagna (n=nate@70.98.162.62) |
| 20:19.47 | dataw0lf | mheath: uhm. yea it will. |
| 20:19.57 | Jayce^ | sjansen, what? brasilian military units didnt' scare you? :-p |
| 20:19.58 | mheath | dataw0lf, not in the near term. |
| 20:21.34 | dataw0lf | mheath: within 3 or 4 years |
| 20:21.34 | hagna | with tcpdump should I be able to see packets that get dropped by iptables? |
| 20:21.34 | mheath | So? |
| 20:21.34 | mheath | Thats 3-4+ more deployments. |
| 20:21.34 | dataw0lf | thus why you should be advocating to get them out of Iraq. |
| 20:21.35 | sjansen | Jayce^: They scared me plenty. I heard enough horror stories to be glad I never had to experience the callous disregard for human life first hand. |
| 20:21.35 | hagna | I mean before iptables drops them |
| 20:21.35 | mheath | I still think military service would be a positive experience for a lot of young men in our country. |
| 20:21.35 | sjansen | hagna: Dropped? Probably not. Depends on where they get dropped. |
| 20:21.37 | Jayce^ | sjansen, yeah, saw a group go after a kid gang once... *shudder* |
| 20:21.41 | hagna | sjansen: INPUT chain |
| 20:21.50 | Jayce^ | thankfully in daylight, and a crowd |
| 20:21.55 | Jayce^ | and not in Rio |
| 20:22.26 | sjansen | mheath: Perhaps. But would the young men be good for our military? |
| 20:22.54 | mheath | sjansen, The nature of the military forces them to be good for the military. |
| 20:23.04 | mheath | Once your in, you have very little choice but to contribute something positive. |
| 20:23.07 | dataw0lf | boloney. |
| 20:23.20 | mheath | With the odd exception, of course. |
| 20:23.28 | dataw0lf | there's a huge difference between the readiness of troops drafted into a military service and a volunteer service |
| 20:23.37 | dataw0lf | and the readiness of said troops affects those around them. |
| 20:23.42 | dataw0lf | you're preposterous. |
| 20:23.57 | mheath | dataw0lf, I didn't say their readiness was on par with volunteers. Where did I say that? |
| 20:24.16 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: Go read Catch 22. |
| 20:24.19 | dataw0lf | 'the nature of the military forces them to be good for the military' They will NOT be good for the military. |
| 20:24.34 | dataw0lf | as I just stated. |
| 20:24.38 | sjansen | If I actually had the guts to serve I wouldn't want to be on the front lines wondering how many guys are spending every moment looking for an out instead of watching my back. |
| 20:24.48 | dataw0lf | exactly. |
| 20:25.31 | rsimpkins | When people start shooting at you, I'm going to guess you learn REAL QUICK to start shooting back. |
| 20:25.37 | rsimpkins | Or you are simply killed. |
| 20:25.45 | mheath | Thats what I'm saying. |
| 20:25.49 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: it's not nearly as simple as that. |
| 20:25.58 | dataw0lf | Morale is one of the largest contributors to the state of readiness of a unit. |
| 20:26.17 | dataw0lf | I would never want a guy who was forced to serve in my squad. |
| 20:26.30 | rsimpkins | dataw0lf: I'm not saying they would be the most effective unit, but if they are forced to be in combat, they will do what they can to not come home in a box - human nature. |
| 20:26.46 | bertbob | it's also true that the current volunteer services have lowered standards and accept criminals and uneducated recruits |
| 20:26.47 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: morale isn't a conscious effort |
| 20:26.59 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: I can assure you that it makes all the difference in combat. |
| 20:27.07 | mheath | bertbob, What? You can't get into the military as a criminal or uneducated person. |
| 20:27.25 | dataw0lf | mheath: they've been dropping their standards dramatically. |
| 20:27.25 | sjansen | rsimpkins: I'm inclined to defer to dataw0lf's real world experience. |
| 20:27.27 | Jayce^ | bertbob, the foreign legion has been the frontrunner for that concept for years... |
| 20:27.41 | rsimpkins | dataw0lf: I've never been in combat, so I wouldn't know. However, I can imagine how I would react if someone started shooting at me, and I were also holding a gun. |
| 20:27.43 | sjansen | But even if I weren't, I'd still be able to look at history and see he's right. |
| 20:27.49 | mheath | Much more than a few traffic tickets disqualifies you from joining period usually (so much as a traffic ticket can disqualify you from some jobs, like mine, even), and its mandatory to have a highschool diploma or GED now. |
| 20:27.57 | Lone_Wanderer | rsimpkins: No, "human nature" when you get shot at is to hunker down and try not to get shot. |
| 20:28.00 | mheath | The highschool diploma/GED requirement is not waiverable. |
| 20:28.08 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: It takes an effort to shoot back at people shooting at you |
| 20:28.10 | Lone_Wanderer | Human nature is not to hurt other people. |
| 20:28.25 | dataw0lf | it takes a certain type of training, morale, and person to rise up from cover and advance on enemy troops |
| 20:28.25 | Lone_Wanderer | It takes a huge amount of psychological conditioning to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. |
| 20:28.27 | mheath | dataw0lf, why do you say that? I'm not all knowing on the subject, but my impression was the exacct opposite: standards are much higher than they used to be. |
| 20:28.32 | sjansen | Some people react by shooting back. Others react by cowering. Others shoot themselves in the foot. And some even lose hope, stand up and walk into the fire. |
| 20:28.52 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins, just watch what the average person does in their first paintball game, and you'll understand a little better... heck, it's *only* a paintball, and yet it promotes dataw0lf's point |
| 20:28.53 | dataw0lf | if I'm in a 8 man squad and I lose one guy because he can't perform a buddy rush, that's one sector of fire I have to worry about a lot more |
| 20:28.57 | mheath | dataw0lf, As far as education level, for example: The Navy is soon implementing a policy that requires senior NCOs to have a college degree. |
| 20:29.13 | goozbach | gross, I stepped on a grape |
| 20:29.14 | dataw0lf | mheath: Most of the drops have occured in the marines and in the army. |
| 20:29.17 | Jayce^ | yes, *some* people will go better, but history has proven it takes work to get the force to be marginally effective |
| 20:29.20 | dataw0lf | since that's who we need. |
| 20:29.33 | dataw0lf | occurred* |
| 20:29.33 | Jayce^ | goozbach, barefoot? |
| 20:29.35 | rsimpkins | I agree that the first instint is to get down. However, at some point you generally will be forced to do something. |
| 20:29.37 | mheath | dataw0lf, I know the Marines still require a highschool diploma or GED |
| 20:29.49 | mheath | And the same criminal record standards apply |
| 20:30.06 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins, that *something* is usually die though.. :( |
| 20:30.12 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Bingo. :) |
| 20:30.28 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: so you're saying that they'll be just as good because they die faster? |
| 20:30.38 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: so my real point is that a bunch of draftees are going to take heavy losses. |
| 20:30.41 | dataw0lf | you lose one guy in a small squad in an urban environment, that's a huge loss |
| 20:30.50 | emcnabb | my cousin is in the marines, and shot someone for the first time a few weeks ago in Iraq (I guess a man holding something was sprinting towards them with a bag, they told him to stop, but he wouldn't). |
| 20:30.59 | mheath | Though, your average grunt doesn't need a security clearance, so _some_ criminal record likely won't stop you as much as it would an average job in the Navy, but... |
| 20:31.12 | sjansen | *shrug* If you're willing to use the majority of young men as infantry fodder as a shortcut to find the qualified soldiers, then I guess you can put anyone in the military. |
| 20:31.18 | emcnabb | he's still shaken up about the whole thing |
| 20:31.20 | mheath | I got to call BS when someone says they let any criminals or uneducated people in. |
| 20:31.41 | dataw0lf | mheath: I haven't even been listening to you, you're completely wrong. |
| 20:31.54 | dataw0lf | however, if you're going to call BS, I'll wade in |
| 20:32.01 | dataw0lf | Do you know how a recruiter operates? |
| 20:32.10 | dataw0lf | Like, quotas, and it's relation to promotion? |
| 20:32.17 | Jayce^ | sjansen, sure worked for the russian/soviet militaries :) |
| 20:32.27 | emcnabb | ~enlist sjansen |
| 20:33.10 | mheath | dataw0lf, I know that I've seen recruiters turn away someone who had a medical condition that wouldn't create any problems and there was a 99.9999% chance the MEPs doctors wouldn't notice because it was "strictly disqualifying". |
| 20:33.18 | dataw0lf | mheath: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5559563 |
| 20:33.19 | brac | [NPR : 'Redefining' Quality Among Army Recruits] |
| 20:33.47 | dataw0lf | the chance that you'll get a thorough PHYSICAL is 100% in the military |
| 20:33.53 | dataw0lf | a thorough background check, much less so, mheath. |
| 20:34.10 | mheath | dataw0lf, My experience is very contrary to that. |
| 20:34.12 | dataw0lf | apparently, the Navy didn't give you a 'logical analysis' exam when they let you in. |
| 20:34.20 | mheath | I was _infantry_ and I had to fill otu a massive security questionaire. |
| 20:34.25 | mheath | They ran all kinds of background checks on me |
| 20:34.30 | dataw0lf | oooh, a questionaire |
| 20:34.35 | mheath | They required a highschool transcript and copy of highschool diploma. |
| 20:34.36 | dataw0lf | what kinds of background checks? |
| 20:34.42 | dataw0lf | please, define. |
| 20:34.45 | Lone_Wanderer | OMG they wanted your grades? |
| 20:34.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Wow that's a thorough background check if I ever heard of one. |
| 20:34.56 | beandog | I wonder if that means I cant get in. |
| 20:34.57 | dataw0lf | if they say 'we're running a background check!' that doesn't mean that they're paying attention, or even performing it. |
| 20:35.14 | dataw0lf | if they say 'bring your transcripts' that doesn't mean they're applying it to your eligibility. |
| 20:35.17 | dataw0lf | I mean, c'mon. |
| 20:35.19 | mheath | dataw0lf, Police checks with all the local agencies, ran info through FBI databases, etc. |
| 20:35.34 | dataw0lf | the Armed Forces is in dire straits right now, obviously they're going to cut corners. |
| 20:35.40 | emcnabb | if they let mheath in, they'll let anyone in |
| 20:35.43 | rsimpkins | They only way I can see the Iraq situation getting better is to change the entire culture and religon (so strongly tied to the culture). We should be giving the soldiers bibles, not guns. Just my opinion of course. |
| 20:35.57 | mheath | dataw0lf, I saw Marines who were still joining the Corps, but couldn't sign up yet, because they were working towards getting their GED with the recruiter. |
| 20:39.19 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 20:39.19 | *** topic/#utah is The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://www.plug.org/node/28 | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | Dirty words like PHP and Fortran are not appreciated |
| 20:39.19 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 20:39.22 | dataw0lf | not convert them. |
| 20:39.27 | sjansen | I'm doing my part by buying a new laptop and blinged-out SUV and a new wardrobe. What are you doing for your country? |
| 20:39.39 | ^Migs^ | we need to love our radical Islamist brothers even as they're gunning us down |
| 20:40.02 | mheath | ^Migs^, No, 95% have to have higschool diplomas. Only 5% can have GED's. Though I think you're just purposely being a moron, so I have to ask why I'm wasting time answering your question |
| 20:40.13 | dataw0lf | I don't love radical Islamists. Islam IS a religion of violence, moreso than most others. But you can't try to convert them. That just pushes them farther to the edge. |
| 20:40.19 | goozbach | o/~ you need to love everybody, make them feel good about themselves o/~ |
| 20:40.25 | ^Migs^ | why are they making a difference between a high school diploma and a GED? |
| 20:41.03 | mheath | ^Migs^, Because a GED != Highschool Diploma, and they're growing increasingly stricter about education standards, unlike what dataw0lf asserts. |
| 20:41.26 | ^Migs^ | that doesn't make sense |
| 20:41.54 | dataw0lf | mheath: I was arguing that the standards had dropped. |
| 20:42.00 | findlay | ~assert dataw0lf |
| 20:42.01 | dataw0lf | I never specified anything about education. |
| 20:42.01 | ^Migs^ | in fact, the opposite makes more sense. They should welcome the uneducated moreso than the educated. That way, the smart ones stay and better society while the dumb ones can be the cannon fodder. |
| 20:42.08 | sjansen | I frankly doubt that we can do much to change the situation directly. All we can do is protect ourselves, preserve our culture of freedom, and demonstrate to those willing to listen that the American way of life isn't anathema to Islam. |
| 20:42.12 | dataw0lf | More and more criminals are being accepted into the military. |
| 20:42.30 | ^Migs^ | the problem with smart people is that they get ideas, and you certainly don't want that in the military |
| 20:42.35 | mheath | ^Migs^, Uh, military needs intelligent people more than stupid people. |
| 20:42.38 | dataw0lf | ^Migs^: that's nice ^Migs^ |
| 20:42.42 | mheath | You want stupid people doing the job I'm being trained to do? |
| 20:42.48 | dataw0lf | I can see what a tactically sound person you are. |
| 20:43.01 | dataw0lf | mheath: well, YOU are doing it, aren't you? |
| 20:43.18 | ^Migs^ | maybe we could have 50% smart people and 50% dumb people in the people. I think that would be a fair compromise. |
| 20:43.30 | mheath | dataw0lf, regardless of what you think of me on here, thats a stupid immature attitude. I'm one of the best in my class. |
| 20:43.32 | Lone_Wanderer | sjansen: We could open American movie theatres in Iraq. |
| 20:43.39 | ^Migs^ | then the dumb people could be sent to the frontlines |
| 20:43.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Put our commercials on their TV. |
| 20:43.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Suburbanize the Iraqi people. |
| 20:43.54 | mheath | You don't know me academically. Don't make stupid assertions about my intelligence. |
| 20:43.57 | ^Migs^ | our put Iraqi commercials on American TV |
| 20:43.58 | ^Migs^ | *or |
| 20:44.05 | dataw0lf | mheath: You're right, I only know w hat you say in here. |
| 20:44.09 | ^Migs^ | whoa, who's making assertions about your intelligence? |
| 20:44.24 | dataw0lf | I'm making observations. Not assertions. |
| 20:44.27 | ^Migs^ | right |
| 20:45.01 | mheath | Keep in mind, though, highschool diploma != intelligence. |
| 20:45.06 | ^Migs^ | that makes sense though. You don't want the next Stephen Hawking to be killed in battle. |
| 20:45.14 | goozbach | I say throw some pineapples at the problem |
| 20:45.21 | mheath | highschool diploma ~= you're able to do what your told, play by the rules of the system, and get the job done. |
| 20:45.21 | uncle_jesse | anyone here going to YAPC::NA? |
| 20:45.45 | emcnabb | mheath: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. |
| 20:45.48 | emcnabb | " |
| 20:46.14 | ^Migs^ | the military's structure forces those who don't do what they're told to start doing what they are told. So again, shouldn't they desire the highschool dropouts? If nothing else, they're teaching undisciplined kids discipline. There's no sense in teaching disciplined kids discipline. |
| 20:46.29 | emcnabb | that's in response to dataw0lf "mheath: You're right, I only know w hat you say in here." |
| 20:46.51 | Tene | ^Migs^: the military wants people who can do the job. it's not a day-care or an educational institution. |
| 20:46.57 | Lone_Wanderer | I think we should just wage a huge PR campaign. Forget military action. |
| 20:47.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Make a movie where an insurgent is shown as a hero |
| 20:47.27 | ^Migs^ | yeah, what has the military ever done for us anyway? Protesting, public awareness, and politicians are the real solution. |
| 20:47.32 | Lone_Wanderer | killing Americans left and right |
| 20:47.37 | goozbach | I'm telling you... pineapples |
| 20:47.42 | goozbach | they just need more pineapples |
| 20:47.43 | mheath | emcnabb, a truce to thy proverbs, Sancho. |
| 20:47.43 | ^Migs^ | and pineapples, of course |
| 20:47.52 | ^Migs^ | possibly pink pomegranates |
| 20:47.54 | Lone_Wanderer | saves his sister from being raped by American GI's, etc. |
| 20:47.57 | goozbach | have you ever been upset while eating a pineapple? |
| 20:48.02 | goozbach | I thought not! |
| 20:48.03 | Tene | Migs: "Your company should hire college drop-outs, not graduates. What's the use in teaching programming to people who already know programming?" |
| 20:48.07 | Jayce^ | uncle_jesse, probably not, trying to save for oscon :) |
| 20:48.08 | mheath | Yes. But I have never been upset while eating a pomegranate. |
| 20:48.09 | uncle_jesse | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:48.25 | Lone_Wanderer | But then slip something into it that makes everything he does somehow subtly invalid |
| 20:48.28 | hagna | what about PA? |
| 20:48.30 | mheath | Therefore, Pomegranate > Pineapple. |
| 20:48.34 | uncle_jesse | Jayce^: if you hear of anyone going let me know |
| 20:48.37 | mheath | Don't argue. Its true. |
| 20:48.44 | uncle_jesse | I'll be there (it is in Houston, after all) |
| 20:48.51 | ^Migs^ | mheath makes a good point. |
| 20:48.52 | Lone_Wanderer | so the Iraqi kids watch it, cheer at their larger than life countryman on the screen, but leave feeling unsatisfied with the whole thing |
| 20:49.51 | dataw0lf | economic restructuring and social/cultural influence is the only way to affect a positive outcome in Iraq. |
| 20:49.54 | dataw0lf | Q.E.D. |
| 20:49.55 | Lone_Wanderer | I doubt that the actual radical Muslims would have the sophistication to communicate why the movie is harmful to their cause |
| 20:49.57 | dataw0lf | now let's talk about Perl or something. |
| 20:50.20 | goozbach | just so long as we don't mention PHP |
| 20:50.27 | rsimpkins | I have a hard time talking about this stuff without thinking about religion at the same time. |
| 20:50.30 | Lone_Wanderer | So I'm writing this site in PHP... |
| 20:50.31 | uncle_jesse | YAPC::NA is going to be awesome this year |
| 20:50.32 | dataw0lf | it's a deal |
| 20:50.38 | uncle_jesse | it's at the school I started at :-) |
| 20:50.39 | Lone_Wanderer | What's YAPC::NA? |
| 20:50.39 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: that's because you're religious. |
| 20:50.42 | mheath | ~punish Lone_Wanderer |
| 20:50.47 | ibot | ACTION forces Lone_Wanderer to install and use Windows |
| 20:50.49 | rsimpkins | dataw0lf: That would probably be true then. |
| 20:50.52 | uncle_jesse | Lone_Wanderer: Yet Another Perl Conference :: North America |
| 20:50.56 | Lone_Wanderer | ahhh |
| 20:50.56 | ^Migs^ | I think we all just need to sit down with the radical muslims and discuss our issues over some pineapple |
| 20:50.58 | mheath | ibot, that only pepetuates the problem. |
| 20:51.13 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, It's OK, I'm coding a website using JSP. :) |
| 20:51.14 | uncle_jesse | it's the other "official" Perl conference next to the one at OSCON |
| 20:51.22 | Lone_Wanderer | ^Migs^: Good plan, but I suggest having a bomb sniffing dog at the door. |
| 20:51.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Butseriously, what would be bad about introducing cultural change through movies and other media? |
| 20:51.57 | *** join/#utah fungus__ (n=fungus@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 20:52.19 | Lone_Wanderer | It's worked so well for Hollywood that you can hardly go anywhere in the " |
| 20:52.34 | Lone_Wanderer | in the "civilized" world without seeing all the same movies advertised |
| 20:52.37 | rsimpkins | I think if we gave everyone in Iraq a OLPC and a wifi network, then started a huge mailing list called plug-iraq, and subscribed sjansen - the war would be over in 10 days. |
| 20:52.42 | sjansen | Probably the same thing with the Reagan anti-drug campaign. It was hopelessly out of touch with youth culture. |
| 20:53.06 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, don't wage it that way. |
| 20:53.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Just open Iraq up to the commercial exploitation of American entrpreneurs. |
| 20:53.23 | dataw0lf | I've lost all hope in American culture after the firing of Don Imus |
| 20:53.32 | Lone_Wanderer | One of them, eventually, will hit on an idea that Iraqis will buy en masse. |
| 20:53.54 | Lone_Wanderer | A toy, a kind of packaged food, whatever. And that will be the beginning of the end for radical Islam. |
| 20:53.58 | dataw0lf | get the ad company that does the SportsCenter commercials, Iraq will be the 51st state shortly after the super bowl. |
| 20:54.10 | sjansen | Long term, I have faith in American culture. But we're going to continue to make some giant mistakes as we gradually evolve as a nation. |
| 20:54.53 | dataw0lf | Like continued false guilt regarding racism that's hammered in by Sharpton, Jackson, and the tree hugging liberals? |
| 20:54.57 | ^Migs^ | old, but funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wogkDmLlQ |
| 20:55.07 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: I don't have much faith either. It's overrun by commercialism and homogeneous crap. |
| 20:55.12 | dataw0lf | everytime I call myself a liberal, my hand twitches as if to punch me in the face. |
| 20:55.26 | dataw0lf | and I start sobbing, because that's what liberals do. |
| 20:55.26 | sjansen | As an example, look at how we treated the troops during Vietnam compared to Iraq. We learned that incompetent leaders should be treated as lepers, not the people fighting for us. |
| 20:55.37 | ^Migs^ | liberals are emos |
| 20:55.44 | Lone_Wanderer | But commercialism and homogeneous crap lulls people into consumerism and keeping up with the Joneses. |
| 20:55.53 | mheath | SC is a very different places than UT |
| 20:55.55 | dataw0lf | I need a new word to describe myself |
| 20:56.01 | mheath | I'm considered very left wing back home. |
| 20:56.02 | dataw0lf | 'maneral' |
| 20:56.34 | sjansen | Or look at the last few decades of over the top political venom. The public's starting to get tired of it, punish the vitriolic and reward politicians that seem less dogmatic. |
| 20:56.43 | Lone_Wanderer | If we could just get the Iraqis to start worrying about having as big of a rocket launcher as their neighbor, we'd be halfway there. |
| 20:57.22 | dataw0lf | sjansen: while I think the upper echelon of people in America are socially and culturally advancing, the base remains the same. |
| 20:57.33 | uncle_jesse | long live America |
| 20:57.37 | uncle_jesse | amen |
| 20:57.39 | sjansen | Long term, shrill extremist minority leaders will look more and more ridiculous. We can accelerate that by continuing to provide opportunities to the disadvantaged. |
| 20:58.20 | Lone_Wanderer | Announcing the new Sears Rocket Launcher T800(tm)! Be the envy of the neigborhood Jihadists as you take down American Devil Blackhawks by the dozens! Made in the USA. |
| 20:58.40 | Jayce^ | sjansen, yeah, kim jong has gotten funnier looking :) |
| 20:59.08 | sjansen | Right now extremism sounds reasonable to many black, latino and native american, but as they become a larger part of the middle class it'll sound less and less valid. |
| 20:59.27 | dataw0lf | sjansen: middle... class? what is this you speak of? |
| 20:59.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Our economy has an increasingly hourglass figure, or so I've been told. |
| 21:00.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Which makes her quite sexy, but does not bode well for the lower classes. |
| 21:00.06 | dataw0lf | just look at the amount of decent wage paying labor jobs that have disappeared. |
| 21:00.20 | Lone_Wanderer | Thank you minimum wage raise! |
| 21:00.23 | sjansen | So you've been told. Compared to most cultures, though, we continue to be one of the most mobile societies. |
| 21:00.25 | Lone_Wanderer | They should make the minimum wage $100 an hour. |
| 21:00.46 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd totally go for that. |
| 21:00.50 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Brilliant! $500 double whoppers! |
| 21:01.20 | Lone_Wanderer | No no no, you're thinking like a Republican. |
| 21:01.24 | Lone_Wanderer | Think more like a Democrat. |
| 21:01.29 | dataw0lf | sjansen: unfortunately, comparisons like that don't take into account that we peaked a while ago. |
| 21:01.31 | Lone_Wanderer | If we just pay everyone more, then everyone will be rich. |
| 21:01.48 | sjansen | We need to acknowledge that long term there is no future in low skilled labor in the US and find ways to increase other opportunities. |
| 21:01.49 | dataw0lf | the minimum wage needs to be increased to at least 11 dollars an hour |
| 21:02.01 | Lone_Wanderer | music, movies and microcode? |
| 21:02.10 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: you're kidding right? that's sarcasm? |
| 21:02.16 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: No. |
| 21:02.31 | dataw0lf | sjansen: the assumption that there are other alternatives for the type of people who filled those jobs is questionable. |
| 21:02.58 | sjansen | It will always be appropriate to have low skill service jobs, but we need to do more to make it obvious that they're entry level and provide real paths to higher payed jobs. |
| 21:03.17 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: What's your basis for defending minimum wage? |
| 21:03.19 | dataw0lf | higher paid jobs imply that there's a large amount of low skill service jobs at the base |
| 21:03.33 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Uh. The fact that the current minimum wage isn't a living wage? |
| 21:03.40 | sjansen | In other words, we need to be doing more the help people discover their passion, receive and education and take responsiblity for themselves. |
| 21:03.53 | dataw0lf | so you're for social programs promoting that, then, sjansen. |
| 21:04.13 | dataw0lf | more spending on public education, that's what you're saying. |
| 21:04.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Raising the minimum wage will only increase the "livable" wage. |
| 21:04.38 | dataw0lf | the livable wage is already above the minimum wage, the minimum wage has little or no effect on it. |
| 21:04.48 | sjansen | Not just public education the tradition sense, but also cultural change. |
| 21:05.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Several economists have written, at length, about how imposing a minimum wage does not make sense economically. |
| 21:05.10 | dataw0lf | culture doesn't improve if quality of life is dropping, sjansen. |
| 21:05.30 | sjansen | I'd like to see us accept more responsibility for each other, like the European nanny states, while developing a culture of personal responsibility. |
| 21:06.03 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: how does it make any sense for there to be jobs at $1/hour? What use would working at such a job be? |
| 21:06.29 | Lone_Wanderer | If the work is only worth $1 an hour, why should a company be forced to pay more than that? |
| 21:06.29 | Tene | sjansen: "nanny states"? |
| 21:06.42 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: I've read them. And it's facetious. It relies on a capitalistic dream world, in which we don't live in. |
| 21:06.46 | sjansen | Of course, that's asking for a lot. Unfortunately, many people in Europe prefer to stay on the public dole while waiting for the "perfect" job. |
| 21:06.57 | Lone_Wanderer | In addition, if a company is forced to pay $7.50 an hour for a $1 an hour job... |
| 21:06.57 | Jayce^ | ~lart nanny states |
| 21:06.57 | ibot | calls nanny states on the phone ... the lights are on but nobody's home |
| 21:07.24 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: what jobs would you qualify as '$1 an hour' jobs? |
| 21:07.26 | dataw0lf | I'm curious to know. |
| 21:07.41 | Lone_Wanderer | they become unable to realize a profit, and go out of business, which lowers the number of jobs available |
| 21:07.51 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think any job anywhere is worth only $1 an hour |
| 21:07.53 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: The hard nosed capitalist response should be "that company should die then". |
| 21:07.53 | Lone_Wanderer | not in the US |
| 21:08.04 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: if a task requires a human to do it, it's worth a lot more than $1/hour |
| 21:08.23 | Lone_Wanderer | sjansen: No, the hard-nosed capitalist response would be "There should be no minimum wage, because a company shouldn't be forced to pay more for a job than it's worth." |
| 21:08.37 | sjansen | Tene: Been to the 3rd world? There's plenty of jobs where low skilled human labor is cheaper than mechanization if wages are low enough. |
| 21:08.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: You're the one who named the $1/hour figure, not me. |
| 21:08.38 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: on the flipside, if you require a certain wage to be paid, you force companies to invest more in their employees, thus raising the bar. |
| 21:09.06 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: Or you make it impossible for a company to hire people who aren't already skilled. |
| 21:09.18 | Jayce^ | and costs, thus making the minimum wage not be enough |
| 21:09.29 | Tene | sjansen: that's because wages are low enough. I would suggest that that's not a good economic situation. |
| 21:09.32 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Minimum wage jobs are almost always jobs that require little or no skillset. |
| 21:09.35 | uncle_jesse | Java sux |
| 21:09.40 | uncle_jesse | Perl rulez |
| 21:09.52 | uncle_jesse | vim forever! |
| 21:09.53 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: Didn't you just contradict yourself? |
| 21:10.02 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: how so? |
| 21:10.20 | Lone_Wanderer | "you force companies to invest more in their employees", "minimum wage jobs ... require little or no skillset" |
| 21:10.21 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Your argument sounds too much like that hard nosed capitalist response is "money should grow on trees". |
| 21:10.38 | Lone_Wanderer | sjansen: How? |
| 21:10.44 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: investing in employees means the allowance that they will be trained for higher paid jobs |
| 21:10.52 | Lone_Wanderer | hard-nosed capitalists don't like minimum wage laws. |
| 21:10.54 | dataw0lf | and it means they will take care of the employees. |
| 21:10.59 | Tene | Also, personally, I'm strongly in favor of anything that increases automation and mechanization. |
| 21:11.19 | dataw0lf | personally, I don't really care about people. |
| 21:11.36 | dataw0lf | but since a huge chunk of money is getting pulled out of my paycheck, I'd like to see it spent on something useful. |
| 21:11.36 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf: Yes, they will take better care of the employees they have, but they'll be much more picky about who they'll hire in the first place. |
| 21:11.53 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: They'll still have the same pool to work from |
| 21:11.57 | sjansen | Minimum wage is just another example of constraints. Some things are possible because they're profitable. The fact that minimum wage makes some businesses unprofitable does make minimum wage wrong. |
| 21:12.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Yes, but if each employee becomes more expensive, they'll be able to hire fewer of them. |
| 21:12.22 | sjansen | After all, we acknowledge societies right to place other restriction like environmental responsibility. |
| 21:12.37 | dataw0lf | and thus the need to keep and value their employees. |
| 21:13.04 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:13.17 | Lone_Wanderer | sjansen: What if the work they're doing only produces $2 an hour worth of profit for their employer, though? |
| 21:13.18 | dataw0lf | The unemployment rate doesn't matter, because as people make more money, they consume more, thus requiring more jobs |
| 21:13.22 | dataw0lf | (unless we're outsourcing) |
| 21:13.26 | sjansen | I don't have a problem with employers being picky about who they hire. It'll encourage people develop the skills that make them hirable. |
| 21:13.27 | dataw0lf | which brings me back to the disappearance of the middle class |
| 21:13.32 | elg | society will set its minimum wage. of course there are imprefections - people aren't entirely fluid in moving from job to job |
| 21:13.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Should they just move those jobs overseas to a place they can pay $1 an hour? |
| 21:13.41 | elg | or relocating, but the principle is the same |
| 21:14.02 | Tene | sjansen: environmental responsibility makes some businesses unprofitable. Does that make environmental responsibility wrong? |
| 21:14.05 | elg | and I watched a thing on pbs last night about 3rd world countries who can't compete because rich countries subsidize their farmers |
| 21:14.22 | elg | and their farmers can therefore ask a lower price than they otherwise could |
| 21:14.28 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Profit is profit and if there's profit to be made, someone will pursue it. Perhaps you meant income and were trying to imply loss. No big deal, the job disappears. That's all. |
| 21:14.52 | elg | every time a government mucks with prices in any way it has often surprising and unintended and unfortunate consequences |
| 21:15.00 | Lone_Wanderer | So someone who was previously employed isn't now, because of a law passed whose purpose is to benefit the very person who just got fired. |
| 21:15.08 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Yes. If someone else can do it cheaper, they should be the one's doing it. |
| 21:15.36 | Lone_Wanderer | But it's not a result of someone else doing it cheaper, it's the result of the govt. artificially fiddling with labor prices. |
| 21:16.11 | elg | Lone_Wanderer is saying that if amercan can do it for $1 then company would be stupid to hire indian to do it for $1 |
| 21:16.24 | elg | but if govt says you must pay american $2, then it's not so stupid |
| 21:16.42 | sjansen | The law doesn't say "business must pay $20/hour to flip burgers" the law says "to survive in the US, $20/hour is the minimum to survive without unfairly shifting expenses onto tax payers". If your company can't afford to pay minimum, it needs to change or die. |
| 21:16.43 | Tene | So, which american would you choose to work the $1/hour job? |
| 21:16.54 | dataw0lf | didn't Cheney invest all of his 90-100 million outside the American economy? |
| 21:16.55 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 21:17.20 | Lone_Wanderer | There's also the issue of the minimum wage driving illegal immigration. |
| 21:17.21 | elg | $1 is a handy unit, don't get caught up o nit |
| 21:17.27 | sjansen | *snort* |
| 21:17.34 | elg | but the answer is, that american who wants a $1/hr job |
| 21:17.44 | dataw0lf | minimum wage driving illegal immigratioN? |
| 21:17.45 | dataw0lf | what? |
| 21:17.52 | bertbob | most of your favorite restaurants pay their servers 2.35/hor |
| 21:18.01 | elg | dataw0lf: uh, yeah |
| 21:18.06 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, if you can't hire an American to do the job because of minimum wage, hire someone who doesn't qualify for minimum wage. |
| 21:18.11 | dataw0lf | how do you figure that one? |
| 21:18.21 | Lone_Wanderer | bertbob: But they earn tips, which brings it up substantially. |
| 21:18.23 | elg | dataw0lf: they're not supposed to hire illegal immigrants at all. what makes you think they feel obligated to pay them minimum wage? |
| 21:18.26 | sjansen | dataw0lf: Because the govt. turns a blind eye. |
| 21:18.42 | dataw0lf | that has nothing to do with minimum wage. it has to do with corporate responsibility. |
| 21:18.55 | elg | nonsense |
| 21:18.57 | sjansen | But it isn't just minimum that encourage illegal immigration. It's the unwillingness of Americans to work for slave wages. |
| 21:19.04 | Lone_Wanderer | If there were no minimum wage, the companies could hire Americans at the rate they're paying Mexicans currently. |
| 21:19.14 | elg | let's say corporations are unresponsible by default. not an unreasonable starting place |
| 21:19.22 | dataw0lf | elg: right. |
| 21:19.24 | Lone_Wanderer | I suppose you could just as easily pay an American under the table for it. |
| 21:19.35 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Exactly. |
| 21:19.56 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: except then the american can turn around and whistle blow |
| 21:20.02 | elg | if an immigrant does that they get deported |
| 21:20.04 | dataw0lf | so it's an American's fault because they're used to one sort of living condition and Mexicans are used to another? |
| 21:20.05 | elg | or at least that's their fear |
| 21:20.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Why would they? |
| 21:20.10 | dataw0lf | I thought we were trying to raise the standard of living, here. |
| 21:20.15 | sjansen | Low wages don't create illegals. Illegals and the limbo we leave them in creates low wages. |
| 21:20.31 | elg | neither creates the other |
| 21:20.33 | elg | it's like heat |
| 21:20.36 | elg | or water |
| 21:20.41 | elg | they flow to the places of low heat/pressure |
| 21:20.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Speaking of which, where does hot air come from? |
| 21:20.51 | sjansen | #utah |
| 21:20.54 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 21:20.58 | dataw0lf | sjansen beat me to the punch |
| 21:21.01 | Lone_Wanderer | No, the real kind. |
| 21:21.01 | uncle_jesse | didn't we have this same discussion one year ago? |
| 21:21.01 | elg | if there's low-wage jobs to be had, low-wage workers will come |
| 21:21.11 | Lone_Wanderer | The other day it was sunny out, but cold. |
| 21:21.15 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: the sun heats the air and the ground which also heats the air |
| 21:21.26 | Lone_Wanderer | So how can it be both sunny and cold? |
| 21:21.46 | dataw0lf | because the earth is made up of primarily water |
| 21:21.51 | dataw0lf | next question |
| 21:21.52 | elg | then the air looks over to its neighbor air that was under a cloud or over some colder ground and says hey, I don't want all this heat. I'm hot. here have some |
| 21:21.55 | elg | and that's wind |
| 21:21.56 | Lone_Wanderer | Presumably air in one place gets warmed up by local conditions, and then it moves out here to Utah and makes us happy and warm. |
| 21:22.16 | sjansen | elg: Your description is better. I shouldn't say "create" but "allow to exist". |
| 21:22.59 | dataw0lf | we need to separate the corporations and the government |
| 21:22.59 | uncle_jesse | uncreate |
| 21:23.00 | elg | sjansen: yes, but I assert it works the other way |
| 21:23.04 | dataw0lf | I think this would fix many a problem. |
| 21:23.17 | elg | sjansen: corps are always ready to pay low wages if they can get away with it |
| 21:23.35 | sjansen | If we had a better regulated "visiting laborer" program the improved bargaining power wages would rise. |
| 21:23.41 | uncle_jesse | anyone here ever grow potatoes before? |
| 21:23.47 | Tene | uncle_jesse: why? |
| 21:23.47 | Lone_Wanderer | uncle_jesse: yes |
| 21:23.48 | elg | sjansen: low wage workers, whoever they be, will come to work the low-wage jobs (which are high wage compared to where they come from) |
| 21:23.53 | dataw0lf | I say get all of the troops out of Iraq and plant em on the border |
| 21:23.53 | uncle_jesse | I'm thinking of growing potatoes this year |
| 21:24.03 | uncle_jesse | how much space do I need to grow them? |
| 21:24.07 | elg | if we manage to keep them out by hermetically sealing the country, that's one thing. we just have a low wage vacuum then |
| 21:24.14 | elg | vacuums work pretty well in thermoses |
| 21:24.18 | dataw0lf | then, next time you see a protest where mexicans are burning american flags, round them up, and deposit them back in mexico |
| 21:24.21 | elg | but not really well in the big big world |
| 21:24.25 | beandog | the answer is obvious -- just get rid of wal-mart. |
| 21:24.27 | Lone_Wanderer | Get some systemic colorado potato beetle pesticides and spray them on the "seed" potatoes, then sometime in July start spraying them with late blight-killing fungicide. |
| 21:24.33 | beandog | that'll fix everything. |
| 21:24.36 | uncle_jesse | beandog: the answer to growing potatoes? |
| 21:24.44 | beandog | immigration |
| 21:24.54 | uncle_jesse | I think a lot more people would grow potatoes if we got rid of walmart |
| 21:24.59 | Lone_Wanderer | uncle_jesse: Oh, my first thought was of how to deal with pests :p |
| 21:25.03 | beandog | well see, it helps there too |
| 21:25.04 | uncle_jesse | irrigation? |
| 21:25.06 | Lone_Wanderer | Umm. I don't remember. |
| 21:25.09 | beandog | ~ditch wal-mart |
| 21:25.12 | Lone_Wanderer | No, read what I said above ^^ |
| 21:25.15 | sjansen | elg: Within limits. It takes a certain type of person to uproot their life and move to another country. The Irish potato famine increase emigration, but some people preferred to stay in a difficult situation than face the unknown. |
| 21:25.23 | Lone_Wanderer | colorado potato beetle and late blight are your two biggest concerns. |
| 21:25.37 | uncle_jesse | is that a big concern in Utah? |
| 21:25.38 | elg | sjansen: perhaps. perhaps it takes a certain type of person to stay and stick it out |
| 21:25.43 | Lone_Wanderer | You can safely apply a systemic pesticide when you plant them, which will kill the beetles. Late blight is tougher. |
| 21:25.47 | Lone_Wanderer | It's a concern everywhere. |
| 21:25.50 | elg | en masse people will do what they've got to do |
| 21:25.52 | uncle_jesse | I didn't have any bug problems last year |
| 21:25.58 | uncle_jesse | but I didn't grow potatoes |
| 21:26.03 | Lone_Wanderer | There you go. |
| 21:26.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Given that they're "Colorado" beetles, and we're right next door, I'm assuming we've got them. |
| 21:26.17 | elg | i served a stateside spanish mission. I've talked to a lot of illegal immigrants, including almost all the members |
| 21:26.18 | sjansen | elg: Most often the most mobile family members leave and send money back. |
| 21:26.25 | elg | exactly |
| 21:26.37 | elg | where most mobile usually means Dad |
| 21:26.38 | uncle_jesse | illegal irrigation? |
| 21:26.51 | uncle_jesse | is that like watering marijuana plants? |
| 21:26.51 | elg | and/or almost-mature sons |
| 21:27.32 | Lone_Wanderer | uncle_jesse: No, it's doing chemigation without a proper backflow-proof valve. |
| 21:27.32 | beandog | personally I think a lot of views on illegal immigration is just a front to racism. |
| 21:27.39 | uncle_jesse | a front to radishism too |
| 21:27.41 | Lone_Wanderer | So that all your neighbors get your Roundup in their water. |
| 21:27.51 | beandog | er, majority. |
| 21:27.52 | beandog | fail. |
| 21:27.55 | rsimpkins | CentOS 5 officially released today. |
| 21:28.05 | rsimpkins | For those that care. |
| 21:28.26 | sjansen | I'm not saying we should close our borders tight. I'm saying we should let anyone that wants to come to come, but they should obey our laws and pay our taxes and only stay as long as they have a job. The moment they stop paying to be here, they should be sent back. |
| 21:28.42 | mheath | ~lart uniform maintenance |
| 21:28.42 | ibot | crushes uniform maintenance with a full height scsi disk |
| 21:28.43 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: I think we are going to stay with the 4.x series until end of life. ;) |
| 21:28.45 | mheath | ~lart ironing |
| 21:28.45 | ibot | dumps 42 tons of dirt, manure, and fish heads on ironing |
| 21:29.18 | sjansen | They should be able to defend their safety and dignity while feeding their families. That way I can have my $1 burger and they can have their improved lifestyle. |
| 21:29.20 | elg | sjansen: i agree. if we don't make immigrants hide, the wages the corps pay them is on the table |
| 21:29.40 | beandog | take that! |
| 21:29.51 | elg | so do we let corps pay them less than minimum wage? |
| 21:29.53 | uncle_jesse | careful - they'll jail you over there |
| 21:29.59 | Lone_Wanderer | Incidentally, I would agree with a minimum wage for Americans if it were possible to hire non-citizen immigrants at any wage you wanted to pay. |
| 21:30.01 | uncle_jesse | see Dawg the Bounty Hunter |
| 21:30.03 | elg | because if not, you still won't get your $1 burger |
| 21:30.10 | elg | s/still// |
| 21:30.14 | beandog | uncle_jesse: hes in Hawaii |
| 21:30.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Heh, I saw Dawg once. |
| 21:30.37 | beandog | great show. |
| 21:30.39 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah. |
| 21:30.41 | sjansen | elg: I see what you're saying. I'm going to have to think about it. |
| 21:30.49 | uncle_jesse | They're fighting to extradite him to Mexico because he illegally went over and took back a convict |
| 21:31.03 | elg | the vacuum would still be there, but they'd be just as likely to pay americans as illegals under the table |
| 21:31.17 | elg | which might be an improvement. it would be for the immigrants, anyway :-) |
| 21:31.38 | ^Migs^ | geez, ping-pong players have been flying and crashing into my cubicle all week. They moved the ping pong table closer to my desk since there's a ton of boxes in here right now. It's driving me nuts. |
| 21:31.39 | elg | and the americans that can't get minimum wage jobs (if we could get them off welfare...) |
| 21:31.53 | Lone_Wanderer | America is built on immigration. The last thing we should be doing is putting a stop to it. |
| 21:31.53 | elg | ^Migs^: set up a motion detect laser |
| 21:32.10 | Lone_Wanderer | ^Migs^: Install razor wire. |
| 21:32.27 | elg | wear a shark head with a laser on it |
| 21:32.37 | sjansen | What I object to is companies that pay less than a living wage because the govt. will fill in the cracks. |
| 21:33.00 | uncle_jesse | http://www.alohaupdate.com/2007/02/16/dog-the-bounty-hunter-to-be-extradited-to-mexico/ |
| 21:33.18 | sjansen | I suppose one response would be to say "you must pay at least this much in taxes to receive govt. services" but obviousl that's broken. |
| 21:33.43 | elg | what's a living wage? |
| 21:33.53 | sjansen | Depends on the person. |
| 21:34.04 | elg | if someone can't live on a wage, will they work for that wage? |
| 21:34.27 | elg | sure they can get a second job, but only if they're willing to live with two jobs |
| 21:34.41 | *** part/#utah hagna (n=nate@70.98.162.62) |
| 21:34.52 | sjansen | I suppose we could address the problem by requiring employers to provide certain services instead of the govt. |
| 21:34.53 | elg | obviously people are living on these wages. they live with dozens of mexicans in an attic apartment, but they live nonetheless |
| 21:35.30 | elg | and the only reason they do that is because as horrid as it looks/sounds, it's better than what they face back home if they didn't come here - starvation of their family |
| 21:35.38 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Didn't the railroads do that with Chinese immigrants? |
| 21:35.40 | Lone_Wanderer | sjansen: A lot of people (granted not all) who are working minimum wage jobs are just doing it to supplement another income. |
| 21:35.57 | sjansen | Instead of requiring the govt. to figure out how to fix healthcare, companies would have an increased incentive to find innovative ways to provide healthcare services to employees. |
| 21:36.10 | rsimpkins | sjansen: They paid them a wage, then charged them the full wage back for a tent and some food? |
| 21:36.12 | elg | sjansen: what about us self-employed? |
| 21:36.24 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Working 3 minimum jobs to survive doesn't count as "supplementing". |
| 21:36.42 | sjansen | elg: I'm thinking out loud. |
| 21:36.44 | Lone_Wanderer | rsimpkins: Yeah, that happened a lot, and not just with immigrants. Coal mining towns had it going on a lot too. |
| 21:36.49 | elg | we all are |
| 21:36.53 | elg | I'm counterthinking out loud :) |
| 21:37.01 | Lone_Wanderer | And *that* is one good reason for the government to intercede in the affairs of a business. |
| 21:37.12 | Lone_Wanderer | sjansen: No, you're right, those aren't the people I'm talking about. |
| 21:37.48 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm talking about people like my mom, who decided that she wanted plastic surgery and a vacation, so she took a minimum wage job for nine months and put it all in the bank. |
| 21:37.48 | elg | rsimpkins: what if they paid them $50k a year and charged them $50k for a tent and some food? |
| 21:37.52 | sjansen | I'd say that the govt. should spend most of its time empowering employees, but abusive unions are the counter example. |
| 21:37.54 | rsimpkins | Yeah, the laws we have today are probably mutants of what they were orginally, but I imagine there might have been some good historical reasons for them to be there in the first place. Not always true I'm sure. |
| 21:38.19 | Lone_Wanderer | elg: Then someone else would come in and offer them a cheaper tent and food and make a killing. |
| 21:38.36 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: yup. so how is that any different? |
| 21:38.44 | rsimpkins | elg: Yeah, the question is it bad or good to expect corporations to provide basic services like housing, food, and medical care to their low-wage workers? |
| 21:39.00 | Lone_Wanderer | It's different because paying $50k a year is way more than the cost of a tent and food. |
| 21:39.02 | elg | if someone can't give a cheaper tent and some food for cheaper, then how is it any worse than paying them the same amount and not offering a tent and some food |
| 21:39.05 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Except the railroads would hire "private police" to keep competitors away. |
| 21:39.06 | elg | ? |
| 21:39.25 | elg | sjansen: that's where it is bad |
| 21:39.35 | Lone_Wanderer | If you pay them $x a year, and $x is the exact cost of living, there's no incentive for anyone to compete with the railroad companies to supply things to their employees. |
| 21:39.39 | elg | that's what needs/needed fixing |
| 21:40.05 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: true, but nobody's forcing people to go do a job that pays exactly the cost of living |
| 21:40.16 | rsimpkins | Lone_Wanderer: That isn't what they did. |
| 21:40.35 | Lone_Wanderer | In the case of railroads employing Chinese immigrants, that's exactly what they did. |
| 21:41.14 | Lone_Wanderer | If I understand correctly, they were brought to the US under false pretenses, kept in labor camps without contact with their families back home or the outside world |
| 21:41.20 | rsimpkins | Lone_Wanderer: lets say a tent costs a bare minimum of $30k/year. They pay the low-wage worker $10k/year and charge $10k/year for the tent. They are techincally paying the worker $30k/year, but they worker never gets that money. How do you compete with that? |
| 21:41.42 | Lone_Wanderer | guarded by "private police" forces so they couldn't run away |
| 21:41.54 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: paying them a wage and offering a tent and food for the same amount isn't bad. it's the lying, private police, etc. that is |
| 21:41.55 | Lone_Wanderer | rsimpkins: You can't. What's your point? |
| 21:42.07 | rsimpkins | Lone_Wanderer: You can eliminate competition and control the entire market. |
| 21:42.23 | Lone_Wanderer | Right. |
| 21:42.25 | Lone_Wanderer | We agree. |
| 21:42.30 | elg | but you only attract people that are content to just live and work |
| 21:42.40 | elg | assuming people can join up and leave freely |
| 21:42.42 | elg | which is the key |
| 21:43.13 | Lone_Wanderer | elg: But you're keeping them in economic bondage |
| 21:43.22 | elg | not if they can leave any time |
| 21:43.22 | Lone_Wanderer | By doing things that way. |
| 21:43.27 | elg | nonsense |
| 21:43.29 | Lone_Wanderer | If they can't afford to leave |
| 21:43.30 | rsimpkins | elg: yeah, but they did a nasty trick. They got the workers in to debt. |
| 21:43.43 | elg | well nasty tricks are nasty tricks |
| 21:43.49 | rsimpkins | yup |
| 21:43.51 | elg | nasty tricks don't make everything wrong |
| 21:43.59 | elg | nasty tricks are wrong all on their own |
| 21:44.03 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@h46054227.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 21:44.17 | sjansen | o/~ You load 16 tons and whaddya get? Another day older and deeper in debt. ~/o |
| 21:44.22 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: if they were brought there on false pretense and can't afford to leave, that qualifies as a nasty trick |
| 21:44.31 | jsmith | ~onjoin _default -jsmith |
| 21:44.31 | ibot | jsmith: ok |
| 21:44.43 | elg | compare to a company that offers you stock options or part ownership |
| 21:44.49 | Lone_Wanderer | elg: But if you live in a coal town where the coal company owns the entire town and every store in it |
| 21:45.10 | elg | the only difference, besides complication of figuring out stock options :-), is that one is informed and the other isn't |
| 21:45.14 | elg | if both were informed, there's no problem |
| 21:45.15 | Lone_Wanderer | and they make sure that everyone gets charged exactly as much as they earn, possibly a bit more so you're in debt to them |
| 21:45.27 | Lone_Wanderer | you either can't escape, or it's very very difficult to do so |
| 21:45.40 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: nasty tricks. |
| 21:45.44 | sjansen | o/~ I saw momma don't you call me 'cause I can't go. I owe my soul to the company store. ~/o |
| 21:46.03 | Lone_Wanderer | elg: I'm saying that paying someone exactly what you're charging them to live qualifies as a nasty trick. |
| 21:46.12 | elg | and I'm saying it doesn't |
| 21:46.20 | Lone_Wanderer | How can it not? |
| 21:46.23 | elg | if the coal company didn't own the town, would it be impossible to leave? |
| 21:46.33 | elg | owning the town and controlling prices is a nasty trick |
| 21:46.56 | Lone_Wanderer | "exactly what you're charging them to live" requires owning the town. |
| 21:47.13 | elg | offering products and services at the same cost as what you pay isn't. (the difference is the lack of anticompetitive behavior) |
| 21:47.40 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: the key is competition |
| 21:48.02 | elg | if someone can compete, then there's nothing wrong with offering a tent and food for the same price as what you pay them |
| 21:48.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Right. |
| 21:48.14 | rsimpkins | I think that is about the time that Unions started sprining up to fight against this kinda stuff, for good or worse. |
| 21:48.53 | rsimpkins | Kinda like, dare I say, wal-mart. |
| 21:48.56 | sjansen | Initially for good, until they got too strong and turned greedy and evil themselves. |
| 21:49.32 | beandog | dont you get fired for joining a union at wal-mart? |
| 21:49.36 | beandog | or something |
| 21:49.41 | sjansen | Ah, but no one is forced to work for Wal-Mart. |
| 21:50.03 | rsimpkins | sjansen: true, in some places though that is the only large employeer. |
| 21:50.17 | rsimpkins | sjansen: wal-mart ran out all the little guys. |
| 21:50.38 | elg | so...... |
| 21:50.39 | sjansen | If a city is large enough to have a WalMart, it is large enough that many other jobs are available. |
| 21:50.40 | Lone_Wanderer | So leave and go somewhere that has more jobs. |
| 21:50.48 | rsimpkins | So wal-marts main goal is to eliminate competition, eat up the work force, and abuse said work force as much as they can legally. |
| 21:50.50 | ScytheBlade1 | Not to de-rail this incredible debate concerning Unions, Wal-mart, "all the little guys" and wages - but does anyone have any good resturant suggestions for the Salt Lake area? ;) |
| 21:50.58 | Lone_Wanderer | Presently in the US, getting a Greyhound ticket to NY or LA is not expensive. |
| 21:51.01 | elg | ScytheBlade1: wal-mart |
| 21:51.09 | ScytheBlade1 | elg, :/ |
| 21:51.18 | rsimpkins | sjansen: wal-mart loves to move to small towns/areas. |
| 21:51.21 | sjansen | Believe you me, I've lived in small town with few jobs options. No way they'd open a WalMart in one of them. |
| 21:51.24 | Lone_Wanderer | Or Vegas or... the country music city whose name I don't recall. |
| 21:51.43 | Jayce^ | ScytheBlade1, price range? any filters? |
| 21:51.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Nashville. |
| 21:51.48 | elg | the real question is how much does a bag of portland cement weigh and what is its volume? |
| 21:52.02 | ScytheBlade1 | elg, a few years ago, actually, one of my friends abducted a guy I know and took him to Wal-Mart. Once he got there, she semi-screamed, "You took me to WEST JORDAN for our HONEYMOON?" |
| 21:52.02 | sjansen | rsimpkins: You probably define 20,000 as small. I define 900 as small. |
| 21:52.05 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I totally agree though. With all the choices out there why would you go work for them? |
| 21:52.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Jayce^, under $70, nothing spicy |
| 21:52.16 | sjansen | In a city of 20,000 there are plenty of other jobs besides WalMart. |
| 21:52.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Boulder is small. |
| 21:52.42 | Jayce^ | $70 for how many people? |
| 21:52.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Wal-Mart would never open a store there. |
| 21:52.46 | ScytheBlade1 | Two |
| 21:53.00 | ScytheBlade1 | That's max I'd like to spend |
| 21:53.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Anywhere from $30 to $70 |
| 21:53.21 | Lone_Wanderer | Rino's |
| 21:53.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Is Italian good? |
| 21:53.30 | Jayce^ | some of the usual, Ze Tejas, PF changs. |
| 21:53.33 | Lone_Wanderer | It's on the high side but you can stay under $70 by skipping desert. |
| 21:53.45 | elg | http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/PortlandCement.asp |
| 21:53.46 | brac | [QUIKRETE® - Portland Cement] |
| 21:53.47 | Jayce^ | those are decent and under that price |
| 21:53.48 | Lone_Wanderer | And you'll need a reservation. But it's very good. |
| 21:53.57 | ScytheBlade1 | Jayce^, I don't know "all the usuals" ;) (hence the question) |
| 21:53.58 | sjansen | You would work for walmart because you're low skilled or want an undemanding job. Teenagers, recent immigrant, retired people, or people who need to be kicked in the pants to make better life decisions. |
| 21:54.04 | elg | "1 part portland cement (by volume)", but they give the size in pounds |
| 21:54.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Lone_Wanderer, I'll look into that, thanks |
| 21:54.31 | Lone_Wanderer | http://www.rinositalianrestaurant.com/ |
| 21:54.40 | ScytheBlade1 | Lone_Wanderer, way ahead of you ;) |
| 21:54.48 | Lone_Wanderer | It's owned and run by a first generation Italian immigrant. They grow their own veggies. |
| 21:54.57 | ScytheBlade1 | Ohh |
| 21:55.22 | Lone_Wanderer | They have a porch that has grape vines all over it |
| 21:55.46 | Lone_Wanderer | growing up the side and across the top, that is. I once saw a water bring out a stool and snip a cluster of grapes off of it, then bring them in back. |
| 21:56.00 | Lone_Wanderer | a waiter* |
| 21:56.07 | mheath | Sigh. I shouldn't have asked the doctor that today. I just lost what little hope I had... |
| 21:56.27 | beandog | youre becoming a woman? |
| 21:56.29 | Lone_Wanderer | Woe is mheath. |
| 21:56.39 | Jayce^ | o/~ hopeless, hopeless, like mheath was... ~/o |
| 21:56.57 | Lone_Wanderer | beandog: I'm sure whatever the problem is, it's wholly intractable and will ruin his life forever. |
| 21:57.10 | beandog | sounds like a story time to me. |
| 21:57.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Jayce^, that's... impressive. And tempting. |
| 21:57.23 | mheath | "Sir...I'm realy nervous abotu this...I've been kicked out of the military before....when I was talking to you earlier, about how likely this was to effect my present career....you didn't sound too optomistic. Is that true?" "Well, yes. I can't really give you a positive prognosis given your current condition and history." |
| 21:58.08 | mheath | beandog, want to read a story? You can give me feedback on the first little bit of the newest chapter I'm working on in my book :) |
| 21:58.22 | Lone_Wanderer | Is it the one I read or is there more? |
| 21:58.24 | mheath | Heh, newest chapter being only real chapter. All the rest is just ideas, random writings, little bits and pieces. |
| 21:58.40 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, Theres some heavy modification and a bit more; not enough for you to really need to re-read it. |
| 21:58.47 | beandog | mheath: whats it about? |
| 21:58.58 | Lone_Wanderer | It's about Awesome. |
| 21:59.05 | beandog | me? |
| 21:59.19 | beandog | :D |
| 21:59.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Probably. You could be the main character. |
| 21:59.19 | beandog | ok |
| 21:59.26 | mheath | beandog, Not too much yet. It's only a few pages (if that) so far. :P |
| 21:59.43 | beandog | ooh, Tarzan |
| 22:00.01 | beandog | mheath: linkie? |
| 22:00.17 | mheath | beandog, e-mail? |
| 22:00.31 | beandog | hmm |
| 22:01.00 | mheath | It's short so far (like I said, most of the rest of this book only exists in detatched ideas and random little writings)...It's really short, and cuts off, but I'm very open to feedback. |
| 22:01.05 | beandog | I wrote a short story once. |
| 22:01.21 | beandog | which Im not letting anyone read. |
| 22:02.08 | beandog | actually Ive got a ton of stories somewhere at home that I wrote when I was in 3rd grade |
| 22:02.13 | beandog | I gotta put them up sometime |
| 22:02.32 | beandog | http://spaceparanoids.org/archives/20k/page1.html |
| 22:02.33 | brac | [Page One] |
| 22:02.41 | beandog | I did that one for a college class though, that was fun |
| 22:02.42 | beandog | :D |
| 22:02.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Speaking of short stories, I had an idea the other day for a sociology study that may or may not be interesting. |
| 22:02.45 | mheath | Again. It's jsut the first little bit. A teaser, if you will (heh, I think I have Lone_Wanderer waiting in suspense for more). But let me know what you think :) |
| 22:03.14 | beandog | "Captain Nemo wants to sail all over the world. They have lots of adventures!" |
| 22:03.34 | beandog | the squid picture is the best by far. |
| 22:03.53 | Lone_Wanderer | You write a short (two or three pages) story that outlines the sexual escapades of an unnamed main character. You write it in such a way that nothing other than the... ermm. I forget the word, but the "he" or "she" words are the only thing that identify the gender of the person speaking. |
| 22:04.06 | Lone_Wanderer | Then you take 400 people, 200 men and 200 women |
| 22:04.28 | Lone_Wanderer | give half of each group the one written with the main character as a man, and the other half with the main character as a woman |
| 22:04.34 | Lone_Wanderer | then have them write down their response to the story |
| 22:04.49 | Lone_Wanderer | and have fun going over the double standards |
| 22:04.51 | mheath | beandog, its off (if you haven't noticed it already). |
| 22:05.07 | mheath | Heh. I wonder if there was another Abraham Lincoln when Verne wrote 20,000 leagues. |
| 22:05.12 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: lol |
| 22:05.14 | mheath | The Lincoln is a carrier now. |
| 22:06.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I think the women's responses would be the most interesting. The male response to a male character would probably be mostly in the "he's a stud" vein. |
| 22:06.59 | Lone_Wanderer | I expect that women would be more likely to give a balanced response regardless of the gender of the character. |
| 22:06.59 | findlay | anyone here have experience with svnserve? |
| 22:07.09 | beandog | mmm kinda. |
| 22:07.30 | Lone_Wanderer | What's svnserve? |
| 22:07.30 | findlay | sounds too complicated for me |
| 22:07.30 | beandog | subversion |
| 22:07.33 | beandog | actually its easy. |
| 22:07.33 | findlay | I'm just trying to keep it simple |
| 22:07.35 | beandog | well, theyre both easy. |
| 22:07.42 | mheath | When did you write that 20,000 leagues under the sea thingy? |
| 22:08.10 | beandog | when i was at uvsc |
| 22:08.10 | mheath | It looks almost like something done by an adult trying to immitate a kid's picture book school project. |
| 22:08.10 | beandog | 2001 I think |
| 22:08.10 | beandog | I took a Science Fiction class. |
| 22:08.10 | findlay | beandog: well, I've setup svnserve.conf and a userfile but when I try to checkout of my repo it says: "svn: No access allowed to this repository" |
| 22:08.10 | beandog | It was *great* |
| 22:08.12 | mheath | Ah, so thats what it was :) |
| 22:08.21 | Lone_Wanderer | A science fiction writing class? |
| 22:08.23 | findlay | doesn't prompt me for a password or anything |
| 22:08.27 | mheath | READ. It's short! :P |
| 22:08.45 | beandog | Lone_Wanderer: Yah |
| 22:08.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Did they make you read any Roger Zelazny? |
| 22:08.46 | beandog | we had to read short stories and get quizzed on em |
| 22:08.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Because if they didn't I'm going to have to have a chat with that teacher. |
| 22:08.50 | beandog | I dunno, we read SO many authors |
| 22:09.00 | Lone_Wanderer | A Rose for Ecclesiastes? |
| 22:09.02 | beandog | mheath: no time now |
| 22:09.27 | findlay | my command is: `svn checkout svn://user@host.com/repo` |
| 22:09.27 | beandog | findlay: and youre just running it as the daemon |
| 22:09.29 | findlay | beandog: yeah |
| 22:09.37 | Lone_Wanderer | ohh, it's 4:00 |
| 22:09.40 | mheath | findlay, READ. :P |
| 22:09.44 | beandog | hmm |
| 22:09.52 | beandog | brb |
| 22:10.17 | mheath | findlay, seriously, your feedback would be appreciated, if you could take a few minutes to overlook it. It's very short. |
| 22:10.19 | beandog | well crap. |
| 22:10.22 | beandog | all mine are through apache. |
| 22:10.49 | findlay | what am I overlooking? |
| 22:11.03 | beandog | who owns the repo |
| 22:11.12 | findlay | I do |
| 22:11.18 | mheath | look at rather. |
| 22:11.33 | mheath | findlay, the first little bits of the first starting-to-be-coherent chapter of a book I'm writing on :) |
| 22:11.34 | beandog | what user is the daemon running as |
| 22:11.37 | beandog | I think they have to be the same |
| 22:11.49 | beandog | I do recall permissions are a pain in the booty. |
| 22:12.15 | mheath | findlay, if you provide an e-mail address, I will provide something to read. |
| 22:12.46 | findlay | mheath: why are you so interested in me reading your proto chapter? |
| 22:12.56 | mheath | Because I want more feedback from people. |
| 22:13.08 | findlay | beandog: well I can modify permissions as necessary |
| 22:13.21 | findlay | I can commit and checkout without any kind of authentication |
| 22:13.22 | beandog | findlay: well on mine they are all chowned apache: |
| 22:13.37 | beandog | and running through apache, of course. |
| 22:13.53 | beandog | so if youre running svnserve as root, I'd say try chowning them to root, for instance. |
| 22:14.10 | beandog | findlay: I thought you couldnt checkout? |
| 22:14.16 | uncle_jesse | beandog: what types of permissions do you have on ldsoss.org? |
| 22:14.27 | beandog | admin I think. |
| 22:14.28 | findlay | beandog: I could before I turned on authentication |
| 22:14.30 | uncle_jesse | well, looks like it's down right now |
| 22:14.36 | beandog | loads for me |
| 22:14.49 | uncle_jesse | beandog: any chance you can give me rights to edit the front page? |
| 22:15.09 | uncle_jesse | very odd - I can't get it to load |
| 22:15.12 | sjansen | uncle_jesse: Java isn't so bad if you can play with the new shiny parts like annotations and such. |
| 22:15.25 | beandog | hold on |
| 22:15.39 | uncle_jesse | sjansen: until a new JVM comes out and you have to change your code api calls all over again |
| 22:16.07 | Supaplex | that's the fun part |
| 22:16.23 | uncle_jesse | yeah, fun |
| 22:16.34 | beandog | uncle_jesse: I dont think I can edit your stuff |
| 22:16.35 | uncle_jesse | beandog: username jstayii |
| 22:16.36 | beandog | I can edit the wiki though |
| 22:16.43 | uncle_jesse | hmm... |
| 22:16.58 | uncle_jesse | I e-mailed Charles but never got a response |
| 22:17.10 | beandog | oh wait. |
| 22:17.11 | beandog | hold on |
| 22:17.16 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 22:18.21 | beandog | yah |
| 22:18.24 | beandog | nothing I can do, looks like. |
| 22:18.47 | uncle_jesse | k - I'll just hope Charles is just busy and hasn't gotten to my e-mail yet |
| 22:18.58 | beandog | Id try again |
| 22:19.04 | findlay | beandog: but `svn checkout svn://user@host.com/repo` is the right syntax, right? |
| 22:19.05 | uncle_jesse | I'd like to get that LDS.org hacks link on there |
| 22:19.15 | beandog | Oh |
| 22:19.25 | beandog | findlay: yah |
| 22:19.31 | findlay | because I can't seem to send the right username |
| 22:19.48 | beandog | oh |
| 22:19.49 | beandog | wait. |
| 22:20.14 | beandog | no, n/m |
| 22:20.19 | beandog | the right username? |
| 22:20.24 | beandog | ah. |
| 22:20.29 | beandog | user authentication |
| 22:20.45 | findlay | I don't want to have to use the pwfile on the box |
| 22:20.54 | beandog | did you setup /var/svn/conf/svnusers ? |
| 22:21.04 | findlay | no |
| 22:21.14 | beandog | any svnusers file? |
| 22:21.18 | findlay | I thought the svnserve users file was all you needed |
| 22:21.45 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 22:21.51 | findlay | http://svnbook.red-bean.com/nightly/en/svn.serverconfig.svnserve.html#svn.serverconfig.svnserve.auth.users |
| 22:21.54 | beandog | well mine looks like its in the format similar to apache's http |
| 22:21.54 | brac | [svnserve, a custom server] |
| 22:22.05 | beandog | oh |
| 22:22.07 | beandog | thats not how mine is. |
| 22:22.17 | beandog | heh, just use apache. :) |
| 22:22.22 | uncle_jesse | anyone know of a good way in cvs to prevent commits if there is a newer version on the server? |
| 22:22.23 | findlay | can't |
| 22:22.39 | beandog | I dunno |
| 22:22.40 | beandog | :T |
| 22:22.44 | uncle_jesse | I'm about ready to slap a coworker of mine who keeps overwriting my code |
| 22:23.06 | dataw0lf | revisioning systems are your friend. |
| 22:23.08 | beandog | I can't remember .. |
| 22:23.09 | beandog | been so long. |
| 22:23.20 | uncle_jesse | dataw0lf: isn't cvs a revisioning system? |
| 22:23.32 | dataw0lf | barely |
| 22:23.44 | uncle_jesse | unfortunately I'm stuck with cvs |
| 22:23.54 | uncle_jesse | I know subversion can do it |
| 22:23.55 | beandog | heh |
| 22:23.57 | beandog | cvs sucks. |
| 22:24.03 | beandog | but, it does work. |
| 22:24.17 | sjansen | cvs and svn suck |
| 22:24.20 | uncle_jesse | I'm part of too large a company to have that much influence as changing the company standard |
| 22:24.25 | uncle_jesse | I like svn |
| 22:24.27 | sjansen | drcs/dscm is the way to go |
| 22:24.33 | uncle_jesse | that's just because I'm used to cvs though |
| 22:25.37 | dataw0lf | we use perforce here |
| 22:25.37 | dataw0lf | p4 ftw |
| 22:25.37 | beandog | git! |
| 22:25.37 | uncle_jesse | sourcesafe FTW! |
| 22:25.37 | beandog | ive heard. |
| 22:25.37 | sjansen | bzr! |
| 22:25.37 | dataw0lf | git sucks |
| 22:25.37 | sjansen | hg! |
| 22:25.37 | sjansen | darcs! |
| 22:25.37 | beandog | uncle_jesse: pm, btw. |
| 22:25.38 | uncle_jesse | beandog: pm? |
| 22:25.38 | uncle_jesse | Perl Module? |
| 22:25.38 | dataw0lf | private message |
| 22:25.39 | beandog | yah |
| 22:25.39 | sjansen | I'd only use git if I were lucky enough to be a kernel hacker. |
| 22:25.52 | beandog | im sure its not that hard. |
| 22:25.53 | uncle_jesse | I don't see anything new in the pm |
| 22:26.01 | beandog | well then respond, punk :) |
| 22:26.11 | sjansen | It's not that git is hard, it's that it has some annoying sharp edges. |
| 22:26.33 | beandog | kinda like dataw0lf |
| 22:26.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Je retourne! |
| 22:26.35 | elg | well put |
| 22:26.43 | uncle_jesse | ah - stupid registration required |
| 22:26.45 | elg | i like darcs |
| 22:26.59 | uncle_jesse | I typed an entire conversation with you beandog and you probably didn't receive any of it |
| 22:27.05 | beandog | buh |
| 22:27.06 | beandog | :C |
| 22:27.34 | beandog | did you see what I typed at least? |
| 22:27.55 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: Seriously, pick up a copy of The Art of Dramatic Writing. |
| 22:28.12 | Lone_Wanderer | At some point while you're writing this book. |
| 22:28.33 | mheath | I'm going to work on writing a lot on my way home. |
| 22:28.47 | mheath | If I get discharged, I'm going to take a good ~2 weeks driving home |
| 22:29.03 | mheath | seeing the country, enjoying life, working on writing more. |
| 22:29.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Where's home? |
| 22:29.07 | mheath | Utah, I guess. :P |
| 22:29.14 | beandog | Wal-mart |
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| 22:31.12 | Lone_Wanderer | ~lart inaccurate credit reports |
| 22:31.12 | ibot | drops a baby grand on inaccurate credit reports |
| 22:31.17 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, what you didn't see was the massive colletion of notes ahd such I have in addition to that little coherent bit I wrote. |
| 22:31.20 | *** join/#utah keighvin (n=Keighvin@kei.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:31.24 | mheath | Notes, ideas, random writings. |
| 22:31.30 | mheath | I'm really excited about this. :) |
| 22:31.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Notes, ideas and random writing won't make your otherwise decent book really good, though. |
| 22:32.08 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 22:32.26 | keighvin | ~lart Jayce^ |
| 22:32.26 | ibot | makes a balloon animal out of Jayce^ |
| 22:33.24 | Tene | sjansen: I'm curious about what you have to say about sharp edges in git. |
| 22:33.31 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 22:34.34 | sjansen | I don't remember the details. The biggest things I remember is that it doesn't version directories and relies on heuristics to guess about renames instead of just tracking that. |
| 22:36.00 | sjansen | As both a good and bad point, it very unixy. Lots of small programs cooperating. That makes it easier to extend, but also results in impedance mismatches more integrated RCS's don't have. |
| 22:36.54 | Tene | Have you looked at packages that try to integrate it a bit better, such as cogito? |
| 22:38.19 | sjansen | nope |
| 22:38.34 | Tene | 'kay |
| 22:39.31 | *** join/#utah Keighvin (n=ptomlins@kei.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:39.38 | Keighvin | b |
| 22:42.00 | Keighvin | ~lart Jayce^ again |
| 22:42.00 | ibot | executes killall -TERM Jayce^ again |
| 22:42.12 | \me | how come spanish speakers get ` in their nicknames but us Thai speakers can't have Thai nicknames on here? |
| 22:42.48 | \me | ๆสาำพ่ๆสแผอยๆำพ |
| 22:42.54 | \me | like that |
| 22:43.02 | \me | which means absolutely nothing, btw |
| 22:44.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Because IRC hates languages of non-European descent, clearly. |
| 22:44.15 | Keighvin | ~nuke Jayce^ |
| 22:44.24 | ibot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at Jayce^ ... B☢☢M! |
| 22:44.35 | Keighvin | I just want to get that cute little nuclear symbol in mine. |
| 22:44.57 | \me | IRC is racist! |
| 22:45.03 | \me | hey - that's cool |
| 22:46.06 | \me | so what character set is the nuclear symbol in? |
| 22:46.13 | \me | :-) |
| 22:46.44 | mheath | Thats the MM symbol :P |
| 22:46.48 | mheath | ~lart MM's |
| 22:46.48 | ibot | hits MM's with an anvil and laughs with a contralto voice ... Haha Ha HA Ha |
| 22:50.16 | \me | mmmm...MM's |
| 22:50.31 | \me | m&m |
| 22:50.38 | \me | there's a character set for you |
| 22:51.07 | Keighvin | I suppose you could always alternately flip some over and just convert it to binary |
| 22:51.11 | sjansen | http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/jelly/ <-- I don't know how anyone can in good conscience type "executable XML". |
| 22:51.23 | brac | [Jelly - |
| 22:51.23 | brac | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:51.44 | Keighvin | chmod a+x *.xml |
| 22:51.44 | Keighvin | It's easy. |
| 22:52.11 | \me | In java, xml is executable ;-) |
| 22:54.05 | \me | so, do you guys at northsky/UOL ever do any work or do you all hang out on here all day? I think half this room works there. |
| 22:56.58 | Supaplex | no comment. =) |
| 22:57.02 | \me | lol |
| 22:57.17 | \me | they realized they've been discovered |
| 23:03.04 | Keighvin | Apparently we have. Myself, redbeard, and harleypig were recent participants in a strategic "reduction in force" |
| 23:03.36 | \me | Keighvin: you guys were laid off? |
| 23:04.05 | \me | how many times has that company done layoffs? |
| 23:04.35 | Keighvin | Supposedly there's some difference between a force reduction, in that the positions themselves have been eliminated - whereas with layoffs, there's a possibility that the company may hire staff to fill the forcefully vacated roles. |
| 23:04.54 | \me | I was kind of a participant in one of those there, but mine wasn't as easy - they basically made it as hard as possible for me to work there |
| 23:05.15 | \me | I was basically forced to quit |
| 23:05.49 | Keighvin | That didn't have anything to do with one P. Bowen, did it? |
| 23:06.04 | \me | I don't think so - this was way before they even went public |
| 23:06.18 | \me | I was doing customer support way back then |
| 23:06.30 | Keighvin | Ah. |
| 23:06.32 | \me | they hired a new cs manager who didn't like me |
| 23:06.53 | \me | I personally think it had to do with my Uncle being the owner ;-) |
| 23:07.25 | \me | he wasn't around much longer after that - I never heard the entire story |
| 23:08.40 | \me | I just went downstairs to Techserv and got a job with them getting paid more and with more perks |
| 23:09.31 | \me | I'm sorry to hear about you guys though. I hope they gave decent severance. |
| 23:10.59 | \me | we need team lead types here at my place if you guys need work and have the experience |
| 23:11.06 | \me | Perl is one of the requirements |
| 23:11.13 | \me | along with some C and PHP |
| 23:12.38 | Keighvin | I was actually there just under a year, so my send-off package wasn't too generous; and my options hadn't vested yet. |
| 23:12.46 | Keighvin | Just a couple more months is all it would have taken. |
| 23:13.05 | \me | that sucks - I've had that happen before and it's no fun |
| 23:13.10 | Keighvin | \me: To whom should I make submission? |
| 23:13.24 | Keighvin | Meh. I've been in the field long enough that this is old-hat. |
| 23:13.34 | \me | Keighvin: e-mail me at jesse.stay@ingenix.com and I'll get the process started |
| 23:13.48 | \me | it's a fortune top 50 company so very solid |
| 23:14.02 | \me | not sure if I've ever heard of a layoff here, but I've only been here a couple months |
| 23:14.05 | Keighvin | 2001 was the best year for it, as the bubble burst. Even though I was trying to avoid companies with '.com' in the name, still got hit hard. And over, and over... |
| 23:14.18 | Keighvin | Had 4 W2's and 3 1099's on the taxes that year. |
| 23:14.24 | \me | yeah - I was one of those victims |
| 23:14.25 | Keighvin | Do you have a preferred document format? |
| 23:14.38 | \me | Keighvin: pdf is probably best |
| 23:14.57 | \me | I'll probably need to get you into the HR system as well so I can get credit for the referral :-) |
| 23:15.20 | Keighvin | Hey, yeah - that reminds me. Jayce^ picked up a referral bonus for suckering my on to United. |
| 23:15.25 | Keighvin | I think I'll sue him to get it. |
| 23:15.36 | \me | we have guys on both Windows and Linux desktops here on my team. The larger company is fighting the Linux desktop though. |
| 23:15.53 | Keighvin | Lame. |
| 23:15.53 | \me | I hear we're winning though. |
| 23:16.10 | \me | It will always be Linux on the server though |
| 23:16.57 | \me | our CTO of our division used to be a VP of engineering over at Overture/Yahoo so he's pretty open to new things |
| 23:17.46 | Keighvin | I've been Windows free for 5 years, and I'd really like to keep it that way. |
| 23:19.54 | Keighvin | Crap, that one has one small typo. |
| 23:20.00 | Keighvin | Hang on, lemme get a new one over. |
| 23:20.22 | \me | I can't fully guarantee that here yet, but it's moving in that direction. Most of the older developers all run Linux, but the newer guys are starting to get Windows machines with VM slices of Linux. I hear that may go away though and we'll eventually get full Linux machines. |
| 23:23.42 | beandog | thats cool |
| 23:23.46 | beandog | its nice working somewhere linux-friendly |
| 23:24.01 | mheath | beandog never even read my short little bit of text :( |
| 23:24.15 | Tene | http://halbot.haluze.sk/images/2004-05/187_uZoo7.jpg |
| 23:24.16 | beandog | im still at work |
| 23:24.34 | beandog | eek |
| 23:33.34 | \me | If it helps, I have both a Linux and Windows machine I work on. Windows is mostly to check e-mail. |
| 23:35.36 | elg | that's one hungry catguin |
| 23:38.01 | Keighvin | \me: Using a KVM, remote desktop, or synergy? |
| 23:39.53 | Tene | Keighvin: or just moving a few feet in one direction |
| 23:41.37 | elg | i have 3 computers. one for the browser, one for email, and one for irc |
| 23:42.18 | Supaplex | how special |
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