| 00:27.34 | tensai | redbeard1: my amano arrived! |
| 00:29.41 | findlay | tensai has ammo |
| 00:36.53 | tensai | ~dart findlay |
| 00:36.54 | ibot | ACTION toasts findlay with a five foot long bluedart |
| 01:01.16 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 01:14.24 | Tene | http://www.rakuten.co.jp/nodayadenki/253698/494457/ |
| 01:39.43 | vontrapp | weird |
| 01:39.59 | vontrapp | every now and then my cpu goes all crazy |
| 01:40.24 | vontrapp | i run top, and it immediately stops |
| 01:40.53 | vontrapp | i would mark it off as coincidence, but this is like the 5th time |
| 02:32.20 | levi_home | vontrapp: It's playing games with you. |
| 02:32.40 | levi_home | tensai: Yay for chocolate! |
| 02:33.57 | levi_home | tensai: You could be the first person to review it on Amazon. |
| 02:44.47 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@c-24-10-165-203.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:10.05 | tensai | levi_home: dare I bring that fame and glory upon myself? |
| 03:16.56 | elg | chocolate pilgrims will be knocking at your door |
| 03:17.22 | elg | you can eat them |
| 03:32.03 | tensai | I have to wait until Thursday to eat it :( |
| 03:32.12 | tensai | I'm going to share it with a chocolate loving friend of mine |
| 03:41.54 | Supaplex | eh? |
| 03:42.22 | atoponce | heh |
| 03:42.29 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:58.58 | levi_home | Yay, my assembly language factorial function worked correctly the first time I ran it. |
| 03:59.08 | levi_home | It's even recursive. |
| 03:59.52 | Tene | That's awesome. |
| 03:59.55 | Tene | levi++ |
| 04:00.00 | Tene | levi_home++ |
| 04:00.06 | Tene | levi_in_space++ |
| 04:00.49 | levi_home | It's a recursive factorial function written in a limited RISC toy assembly assembly language and run on a virtual machine that I wrote, even. |
| 04:01.06 | tensai | well now you're just showing off |
| 04:01.10 | Tene | Impressive. :) |
| 04:03.57 | levi_home | Now I have to do some weird crap where the numbers I enter and their factorials get stored in an array, and when I enter a 0, stuff gets printed back in a weird order. |
| 04:05.16 | levi_home | The nice thing about stupid toy RISC instruction sets is that it's easy to remember the instructions. |
| 04:09.10 | tensai | levi_home: is this for your class? |
| 04:11.31 | levi_home | Yup. |
| 04:13.04 | Newsome | did you write the assembler as well? |
| 04:13.16 | levi_home | Yup. |
| 04:13.18 | levi_home | Twice. |
| 04:14.06 | levi_home | The first one wasn't very flexible, so I rewrote it using a real parser. |
| 04:14.12 | Newsome | nice |
| 04:14.40 | levi_home | And it's all written in Scheme. :) |
| 04:14.51 | Newsome | ~lart scheme |
| 04:14.51 | ibot | takes large quantities of Krispy Kream donuts and stuffs them one after another down scheme's throat until scheme puts on 150lbs |
| 04:15.12 | Newsome | hmm...ibot just created emacs |
| 04:17.07 | tensai | Newsome: heh |
| 04:17.17 | Newsome | now, how about adding an integrated debugger into the VM? |
| 04:17.18 | Tene | Heh. |
| 04:17.18 | Newsome | :) |
| 04:17.40 | levi_home | That's what the scheme REPL is for. |
| 04:18.38 | levi_home | I could add in some more debugging features, but I don't really feel like it. |
| 04:19.22 | Tene | you should name one of your opcodes 'sjansen' |
| 04:22.27 | raven_ | awesome |
| 04:22.47 | raven_ | i not only killed my vista install, but now the bios wont boot with that drive connected! |
| 04:23.01 | Tene | Agreed. That's awesome. |
| 04:23.16 | Newsome | your computer is protecting you from Vista |
| 04:23.26 | raven_ | well gentoo still boots if i tell the bios not to detect that drive |
| 04:23.29 | raven_ | so there is still hope |
| 04:23.45 | raven_ | just uh, don't try to repartition a vista drive and put xp on it too. |
| 04:23.56 | raven_ | windows apparently didn't like that |
| 04:25.44 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb_ (n=peter@c-24-10-165-203.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:26.16 | raven_ | I wouldn't even have xp / vista if I didn't want to game, and Nvidia doesn't want to support vista, so it's pretty much back to xp for games. |
| 04:26.42 | raven_ | I think I should work more on wine |
| 04:34.04 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 04:39.09 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 04:39.37 | tensai | that's what I bought my gamecube for |
| 04:42.41 | raven_ | dd if=0 of=/dev/sdb blocksize=1000000 count=100 |
| 04:42.44 | raven_ | sound good ? |
| 04:43.38 | tensai | if=/dev/zero |
| 04:43.45 | raven_ | o rite |
| 04:44.17 | Tene | raven_: or just do the first 512 bytes and nuke the partition table |
| 04:44.47 | raven_ | I have everything on that drive that's important on the network, and already tried just killing the partitions 8) |
| 04:45.30 | raven_ | time to be thorough |
| 04:45.47 | Tene | kk |
| 04:46.30 | raven_ | tensai: i have a wii, ps2, xbox, and 360. games are a little bit more than a hobby. |
| 04:46.40 | raven_ | I really just want to play C&C3 |
| 04:49.33 | raven_ | 100 in 100 out |
| 04:49.37 | raven_ | reboot time :) |
| 04:50.06 | raven_ | fixt |
| 04:50.29 | raven_ | wow, i guess asus needs more shit checking for broken mbr |
| 04:50.31 | raven_ | heh |
| 04:51.08 | tensai | ~language raven_ |
| 04:51.12 | ibot | ACTION grabs raven_ by the ear and washes raven_'s mouth out with soap |
| 04:51.57 | *** part/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 04:52.25 | raven_ | you'd like it in another language ? how about fecies, unko, (common) poop |
| 04:52.56 | raven_ | it might actually just be spelled fecis |
| 04:53.00 | raven_ | not quite sure on that one |
| 04:53.43 | *** join/#utah levi_ (n=levi@c-71-195-251-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 04:58.57 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@unaffilated/sontek) |
| 05:00.29 | raven_ | sontek: hey |
| 05:01.27 | pmcnabb_ | -lart raven_ |
| 05:01.54 | raven_ | sontek: I've annoyed #utah with my horror stories of xp vs vista on my mbr |
| 05:08.06 | levi_home | raven_: We're made of tougher stuff than that. We're just quiet because it's late. |
| 05:09.20 | raven_ | heh |
| 05:09.20 | raven_ | k |
| 05:10.25 | levi_home | Horror stories are as commonplace as silly bot fighting. |
| 05:10.43 | Tene | ~insult brac |
| 05:10.51 | raven_ | aha, tolerant of many types |
| 05:11.36 | Tene | Yes, #utah is polymorphic |
| 05:11.58 | raven_ | hahaha, dare I make the obligitory: polygamist? |
| 05:12.53 | levi_home | We're tolerant of, not married to, annoyances. ;) |
| 05:13.02 | raven_ | heh |
| 05:19.21 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 05:28.49 | sontek | raven_: boot into the command prompt of the setup cd and type fixmbr ! |
| 05:34.34 | levi_home | Hmm, my openwrt router is acting strangely. |
| 05:37.01 | Tene | That's because it has a strange name. |
| 05:40.28 | raven_ | yeah already killed the entire drive |
| 05:40.46 | raven_ | and now doing a non-quick format ntfs :/ |
| 05:40.49 | raven_ | heading to bed |
| 05:41.47 | raven_ | and knowing my luck with drivers, nvidia will release drivers that work tomorrow |
| 05:47.10 | sontek | raven_: did you try installing the winxp drivers in vista? |
| 05:47.22 | sontek | raven_: I read a lot of people having that work well |
| 05:47.31 | sontek | raven_: when Joe tried he just bsod'd every couple hours |
| 06:06.37 | levi_home | Ahh, it was a known bug with the openwrt firmware running on a buffalo router. |
| 06:06.47 | levi_home | All better now. |
| 06:34.59 | *** join/#utah sontek_ (n=sontek@m250e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 06:40.55 | Tene | Any vim-users up? |
| 06:58.13 | Supaplex | yup |
| 06:58.26 | Tene | Nevermind. |
| 06:58.39 | Supaplex | filler questions waste time anyway. |
| 06:58.59 | Tene | ?? |
| 06:59.01 | UtahBot | ??[x]: Usage: ?? <word> [> nick] |
| 06:59.04 | Tene | "filler questions"? |
| 06:59.11 | Tene | UtahBot: die |
| 06:59.12 | Supaplex | Can i ask a question? |
| 06:59.23 | Tene | Ahh. |
| 06:59.28 | Supaplex | that's a filler question. |
| 06:59.33 | Tene | You're a filler question. |
| 06:59.41 | Tene | ibot: Supaplex is a filler question |
| 06:59.51 | ibot | ...but supaplex is already something else... |
| 06:59.54 | Supaplex | I bet i'm something else. |
| 06:59.56 | Supaplex | HAH |
| 06:59.58 | Tene | ibot: Supaplex is also a filler question |
| 07:00.00 | ibot | okay, Tene |
| 07:00.00 | Supaplex | score. |
| 07:00.06 | Tene | HAH! |
| 07:00.12 | Tene | Double Score! |
| 07:00.18 | Tene | Supaplex-- |
| 07:00.21 | Tene | tene++ |
| 07:00.57 | Supaplex | you karma mod yourself? pffft. |
| 07:01.00 | Supaplex | ibot: Supaplex |
| 07:01.03 | ibot | it has been said that supaplex is a classic and fun game from the msdos 6.x era. |
| 07:01.09 | Supaplex | :-D |
| 07:42.29 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@m160e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 12:33.46 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 12:58.10 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@h46054227.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 12:59.30 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=mrpull@205.158.184.126.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 12:59.38 | elg | levi_home: what was the router problem? |
| 13:06.31 | *** join/#utah Supaplex_ (i=supaplex@166-70-62-199.ip.xmission.com) |
| 13:08.45 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 13:18.44 | *** join/#utah Chris_Brown (n=cbrown@fw.vpxp.com) |
| 13:22.51 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=clints@166-70-63-209.ip.xmission.com) |
| 13:37.26 | *** join/#utah Supaplex (i=supaplex@166-70-62-199.ip.xmission.com) |
| 13:48.16 | Supaplex | moin :) |
| 13:57.31 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@67.108.236.230.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 14:02.47 | elg | re xkcd. sick sick sick |
| 14:07.57 | elg | phd is funny today |
| 14:07.57 | elg | http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd040907s.gif |
| 14:08.31 | elg | http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2007/04/mail_order_hagg.html |
| 14:09.36 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.utahbroadband.com) |
| 14:13.40 | ^Migs^ | that Bingo sheet doesn't make any sense. If everyone prints out the same sheet, everyone will win at the same time. |
| 14:13.45 | ^Migs^ | that's stupid |
| 14:14.15 | elg | it's all about who can shout it fastest and loudest |
| 14:14.20 | elg | i bet you'd win |
| 14:14.58 | ^Migs^ | obviously |
| 14:17.58 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 14:29.56 | Supaplex | moin fungus |
| 14:30.22 | graphyx | what is the simplest way for perl to do reverse dns lookup on an ip? |
| 14:30.37 | ^Migs^ | http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSL1029458820070410?feedType=RSS |
| 14:30.48 | graphyx | I have about 100 ips I need to reverse and put in a spreadsheet and I don't feel like doing it by hand. |
| 14:31.18 | Supaplex | graphyx: just a quick idea, perldoc -f gethostbyname |
| 14:31.54 | graphyx | ok thanks |
| 14:35.35 | Supaplex | i recall finding a P.O.E. sample that would use nearly unlimited async lookups to resolve countless hosts in just a few seconds. try the poe cookbook. |
| 14:37.46 | elg | graphyx: you could do it with a shell script using host and seq |
| 14:38.55 | ^Migs^ | pfft, I told the Indian I fixed the problem he was supposed to help me fix, and he asked me how I did it. |
| 14:39.13 | ^Migs^ | whaddanoob |
| 14:44.49 | *** join/#utah WoodsDog (n=woodsdog@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 14:56.40 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 14:58.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Does the "cheap, fast, good: pick any two" rule have a name? |
| 14:59.39 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@unaffilated/sontek) |
| 15:09.23 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@dsl092-197-124.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 15:16.15 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: It's the "cheap, fast, good: pick any two" rule. |
| 15:16.36 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahhh. |
| 15:16.43 | Lone_Wanderer | That doesn't make a terribly compelling blog title I'm afraid. |
| 15:16.56 | graphyx | Lone_Wanderer: sometimes it is called reality. |
| 15:17.10 | levi | elg: The router problem was something to do with apic settings in nvram. |
| 15:17.42 | levi | elg: When I had a lot of network traffic while streaming a movie, it would think a button was being pressed and run a zillion hotplug scripts, bringing it to its knees. |
| 15:23.18 | *** join/#utah Zelut (n=christer@ubuntu/member/zelut) |
| 15:25.13 | Supaplex | fun |
| 15:33.09 | levi | elg: The fix was to change a line in a startup script so that it wouldn't unset one of the nvram settings. |
| 15:33.13 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@otherlab.cs.byu.edu) |
| 15:35.09 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 15:35.09 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:37.02 | tensai | graphyx: cat list-of-ips.txt |while read ip; do echo -n "${ip}: "; host "${ip}" done >list-of-addresses.txt |
| 15:37.32 | levi | So, I started watching both Andromeda and Battlestar Galactica last night. |
| 15:38.33 | elg | how is andromeda? |
| 15:39.07 | levi | Not the best show in the world, but I kinda like it. |
| 15:40.05 | lukfugl | is that the one with the living/sentient ship? |
| 15:40.13 | levi | Yeah. |
| 15:40.39 | lukfugl | I tried watching a few episodes of that and it was just too... cartoony, for lack of a better word |
| 15:41.01 | lukfugl | like hercules and xena |
| 15:41.11 | levi | It's got a bit of the Star Trek vibe to it, but yeah, it's far more action-oriented. |
| 15:41.32 | elg | little did you know the sentient ship is descended from hercules AND xena |
| 15:41.39 | lukfugl | heh |
| 15:42.05 | lukfugl | isn't the guy from hercules the captain, anyways? or am I remembering some other scifi show? |
| 15:42.26 | levi | Yeah, I think so. |
| 15:42.38 | levi | I don't recall hercules very well, though. |
| 15:43.36 | levi | I watched it and Xena a couple of times, and they were pretty decent entertainment, I thought. |
| 15:43.38 | lukfugl | didn't see much hercules either, I changed the channel any time I found it :) felt like power rangers for grownups |
| 15:43.55 | levi | I'd so rather watch that than The Bachelor or something. |
| 15:44.09 | graphyx | tensai: awesome. |
| 15:44.18 | lukfugl | levi: yes, even hercules and xena beat out reality tv :) |
| 15:44.37 | graphyx | tensai: now I just need to wait for my gentoo vmware session to come back alive |
| 15:44.51 | levi | I saw a couple of minutes of The Bachelor while my wife was watching it. The guy this time seems like a dork. |
| 15:45.43 | levi | And the girls are just... well, I can't think of a good word, but 'unwatchable' sums it up. |
| 15:46.09 | ^Migs^ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0K2rECuyRE |
| 15:46.20 | tensai | herlo: I'd prefer getting smacked by a 2x4 than a sledge hammer |
| 15:46.21 | sontek | money grubbin' hotties, whats not to love? |
| 15:46.25 | *** join/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 15:46.36 | herlo | tensai: me too |
| 15:47.01 | lukfugl | wow, that's big |
| 15:52.13 | ^Migs^ | yeah, imagine playing Mortal Kombat on that |
| 15:53.19 | ^Migs^ | omg. The Indian closed my case, and he didn't even get the description of the problem right. |
| 15:53.31 | ^Migs^ | he was way off, what an idiot. |
| 15:55.18 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: "The Indian"? |
| 15:55.44 | ^Migs^ | yes, my Indian tech support guy |
| 15:55.58 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:55.59 | raven_ | Mr. Dell ? |
| 15:56.00 | raven_ | heh |
| 15:56.04 | ^Migs^ | aka The Indian, or Injun, if you prefer |
| 15:56.53 | emcnabb | The Indian works for you, Whitey? |
| 15:56.57 | emcnabb | or some other company? |
| 15:57.18 | ^Migs^ | no, he's part of BEA's elite tech support team |
| 15:57.27 | emcnabb | ah |
| 15:57.29 | ^Migs^ | which is, incindentally, entirely headquartered in India |
| 15:57.42 | ^Migs^ | s/incindentally/incidentally/ |
| 15:57.42 | emcnabb | you should jump to jboss :-) |
| 15:57.47 | ^Migs^ | Working on it. :) |
| 15:58.00 | ^Migs^ | won't be able to this school year, but definitely for 2007-2008 |
| 15:58.21 | ^Migs^ | I can't imagine Red Hat's support, if ever need it, would be any worse |
| 15:58.53 | findlay | java's not the boss of me |
| 15:59.24 | emcnabb | findlay: so, there is a guy in my parents ward in Illinois with the last name of Findlay, and he looks just like you |
| 15:59.35 | emcnabb | I asked him if you were related, but he didn't think so |
| 15:59.47 | findlay | it is possible |
| 15:59.55 | emcnabb | he's from Utah |
| 15:59.58 | findlay | where? |
| 16:00.05 | emcnabb | hum, don't remember |
| 16:00.07 | emcnabb | SLC are |
| 16:00.08 | emcnabb | a |
| 16:00.21 | emcnabb | *Jordan* maybe? |
| 16:01.11 | emcnabb | something Jordan, I thikn |
| 16:01.16 | findlay | my family is the only Findlay's of close relation on the west side of the valley |
| 16:01.26 | pmcnabb | "find" question: I'm trying to do something like this: "find /home -mindepth 2 \( ! -path '*public_html*' \) -prune" to get a list of files in users' public_html directories. This doesn't work though. Maybe I don't understand -prune... any ideas? |
| 16:01.27 | findlay | that I know of |
| 16:01.49 | findlay | pmcnabb: when you understand -prune, do let us know |
| 16:02.03 | ^Migs^ | I swear, we should outsource our department as tech support. |
| 16:02.06 | findlay | the example in the manpage looks like nonsense |
| 16:02.30 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: then people you swear at you as "The Whitey" |
| 16:02.44 | emcnabb | "darn white boy!" |
| 16:02.52 | ^Migs^ | but people would pay big money for English BEA support |
| 16:03.02 | ^Migs^ | what makes you think I'm white? |
| 16:03.08 | pmcnabb | findlay: yes.. i'm led to believe it will not search in paths matching the previous expression. in my case, things that do not include 'public_html' |
| 16:03.33 | findlay | right |
| 16:03.49 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: you live in Utah? |
| 16:03.51 | emcnabb | :-) |
| 16:04.24 | findlay | why do you have the -path in \(\)? |
| 16:04.24 | pmcnabb | for bash's sake |
| 16:04.34 | pmcnabb | find uses ( ) for grouping |
| 16:04.47 | ^Migs^ | well, I am a cracker incidentally, but that was a premature assumption on your part |
| 16:05.38 | ^Migs^ | http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/It_0x27_s_Gonna_Be_a_While.aspx |
| 16:05.49 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: but it's a good assumption |
| 16:06.16 | emcnabb | Utah - White persons not Hispanic, percent, 2005 83.5% |
| 16:06.33 | ^Migs^ | the assumption itself is neither good nor bad. It's a neutral assumption, which was based on known demographics. |
| 16:07.31 | emcnabb | you can make a "bad" assumption if you don't back it up with data. I did, so it's "good" |
| 16:09.01 | findlay | ~assume emcnabb |
| 16:09.15 | emcnabb | ~lart findlay |
| 16:09.16 | ibot | hooks into a hydrant and hoses findlay down |
| 16:09.18 | sjansen | Turns out Chris Stone isn't a total moron. Instead, Maureen O'Gara has no problem putting words in other people's mouth. |
| 16:09.28 | sjansen | "As for Ms. O'Gara's testimony, Exhibit 29, it turns out that she reported on what she *thought* Stone meant by the little he said. Oh, brother. She says he said Novell was going to assert its ownership of copyrights the same day SCO announced its earnings, and all the rest is her interpretation of what she thought that might mean." -- http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070411074329620 |
| 16:09.28 | emcnabb | ~moron sjansen |
| 16:09.45 | findlay | ~shoot emcnabb |
| 16:09.47 | ibot | ACTION shoots emcnabb in the head with a spitwad! |
| 16:10.26 | findlay | ~shoot Exhibit 29 |
| 16:10.28 | ibot | ACTION shoots Exhibit 29 in the head with a frozen turkey cannon! |
| 16:10.28 | levi | http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A22098-2004Mar24 |
| 16:10.29 | brac | [Important Medical News . . . (washingtonpost.com)] |
| 16:10.37 | levi | ^Migs^: you ought to like that link. |
| 16:11.33 | ^Migs^ | haha: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/Some_Call_it_Concatenation.aspx |
| 16:13.21 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 16:13.39 | ^Migs^ | wow, that's...gross |
| 16:14.28 | pmcnabb | yeah, "wow" is all i can say, too |
| 16:17.06 | sjansen | levi: Wow... Uhm.... Wow |
| 16:17.23 | lukfugl | stool is an organ? |
| 16:18.04 | lukfugl | eww |
| 16:19.52 | elg | remind me to never get that sickness |
| 16:20.02 | maquis | i like this one: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/The_Incidental_Expert.aspx |
| 16:21.12 | levi | http://plasmasturm.org/log/393/ |
| 16:21.30 | levi | ^- This captures my feelings on PHP rather well. |
| 16:25.31 | sjansen | I agree with every word, but it doesn't capture my feelings. The tone is too respectful. |
| 16:26.01 | sjansen | But then, I suppose he wasn't forced to endure PHP long enough to develop a violent allergic reaction. |
| 16:26.15 | sjansen | http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/04/php_becoming_ma.html |
| 16:26.17 | brac | [O'Reilly Radar > PHP Becoming Mainstream] |
| 16:26.39 | ^Migs^ | I imagine PHP will be significantly cleaned up in the future |
| 16:27.16 | ^Migs^ | it better, or else |
| 16:27.49 | sjansen | I doubt it. It's much more likely it'll continue to languish in its nice little niche of a cesspoool. |
| 16:27.55 | sjansen | PHP is the new VB |
| 16:27.59 | ^Migs^ | i do like the PHP manual, though |
| 16:28.05 | ^Migs^ | certainly better than crappy Javadocs |
| 16:30.15 | sjansen | PHP got two things right: 1) Make it easy. 2) Build a community. |
| 16:31.02 | ^Migs^ | well, it is easy. First web language I learned, and it only took me a few days to get it. |
| 16:31.03 | levi | http://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2004/06/i-cant-find-this-on-web-so-here.html |
| 16:31.05 | brac | [commandcenter] |
| 16:31.10 | levi | Fun story about RMS vs Rob Pike |
| 16:31.37 | pmcnabb | ~dict cesspool |
| 16:32.34 | levi | Unfortunately, Rob Pike is not a frequent blog poster. |
| 16:37.23 | levi | Man, my internet connection at work is pathetic today. |
| 16:37.31 | levi | Someone must be downloading isos or something. |
| 16:42.37 | goozbach | ibot: onjoin jsmith |
| 16:43.11 | goozbach | ibot: onjoin jsmith jsmith it appears goozbach doesn't need your help after all, any questions invoke him |
| 16:43.13 | ibot | ok, goozbach |
| 16:43.17 | goozbach | ibot: onjoin jsmith |
| 16:43.17 | ibot | onjoin for jsmith set by goozbach on Wed Apr 11 10:43:11 2007: jsmith it appears goozbach doesn't need your help after all, any questions invoke him |
| 16:43.33 | goozbach | ibot: thank |
| 16:43.33 | ibot | bitte, goozbach |
| 16:43.34 | goozbach | ibot: thanks |
| 16:43.34 | ibot | goozbach: de nada |
| 16:44.52 | sjansen | ~thank sjansen for being so wonderful |
| 16:44.52 | ibot | sjansen: de nada |
| 16:44.57 | sjansen | :-P |
| 16:45.11 | pmcnabb | ~lart ibot abusers |
| 16:45.11 | ibot | chops ibot abusers in half with a free AOL CD |
| 16:46.35 | goozbach | I'm not abusing |
| 16:46.55 | goozbach | I'm running away, can't be here when jsmith comes back, just letting him know not to look for me |
| 16:47.03 | pmcnabb | i was referring to sjansen.. :) |
| 16:47.18 | findlay | I'm the worst ibot abuser here |
| 16:47.30 | lukfugl | -chat about ibot abuse |
| 16:47.30 | brac | ibot abuse |
| 16:47.31 | ibot | hmm... abuse is http://www.rfc-ignorant.org/policy-abuse.php or RFC 2142 |
| 16:47.34 | brac | [Listing policy for abuse.rfc-ignorant.org zone] |
| 16:47.38 | findlay | lukfugl: beat me to it :) |
| 16:53.02 | sjansen | ~challenge findlay |
| 17:12.44 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 17:12.44 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:20.18 | atoponce | goozbach: you been working out? |
| 17:31.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Is it just me or does Pep Boys charge kind of high rates for their service center? |
| 17:34.52 | Supaplex | call around. let us know the better ones. |
| 17:36.32 | sjansen | Or you could just hang out in #utah like the rest of us, complaining but never doing anything. |
| 17:37.10 | Lone_Wanderer | I'll go with sjansen's plan. |
| 17:37.32 | Zelut | sjansen: ohh *thats* what you do. It all makes sense. |
| 17:38.15 | sjansen | Goodbye cruel #utah, here goes my net connection. |
| 17:38.32 | sjansen | Alas poor sjansen, I knew him well. Cut down in the prime of his life. |
| 17:38.43 | sjansen | So handsome. He didn't deserve to go that way. :-( |
| 17:41.29 | sjansen | Hark! What is this? A reprieve? |
| 17:42.11 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 17:43.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Nothing :( |
| 17:43.41 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Let me help you. |
| 17:44.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Doesn't help me visualize it I'm afraid. |
| 17:44.37 | Supaplex | heh |
| 17:47.10 | levi | I started watching the new Battlestar Galactica last night. |
| 17:53.37 | levi | I should not have started watching a 2 hour pilot when I should have been going to bed. |
| 18:07.53 | *** join/#utah brast1 (n=brasto@71-219-154-236.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 18:08.34 | brast1 | I'm getting this in my postfix maillog: |
| 18:08.35 | brast1 | /var/log/mail.info:Apr 11 03:07:18 mscis postfix/qmgr[15854]: 6F4241C2C6: to=<dad@localhost.no-ip.org>, relay=none, delay=3147, delays=3126/21/0/0, dsn=4.4.3, status=deferred (delivery temporarily suspended: Host or domain name not found. Name service error for name=localhost.no-ip.org type=MX: Host not found, try again) |
| 18:08.38 | brast1 | any ideas? |
| 18:09.00 | brast1 | where are local host names listed? |
| 18:11.28 | brast1 | looks like it may all be in the /etc/postfix dir |
| 18:12.32 | brast1 | but which files do i modify? what do i put? do i need to run a makemap hash after a modification? any postfix people in this room today? |
| 18:24.33 | emcnabb | brast1: he is |
| 18:24.42 | emcnabb | his nephew |
| 18:25.05 | emcnabb | we lived in the same apartment complex back in the good ol' days |
| 18:25.12 | emcnabb | bytheway: how's it going anyway? |
| 18:27.13 | brast1 | brb... i'm supposed to be brasto, so i'm logging back in. |
| 18:27.28 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 18:27.52 | brast1 | btw emcnabb, you could say: "By the way, bytheway, what's up?" :) |
| 18:28.00 | *** part/#utah brast1 (n=brasto@71-219-154-236.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 18:28.43 | ^Migs^ | I always thought John Bytheway was kind of lame. |
| 18:29.02 | ^Migs^ | someone who's 15 minutes of fame just won't go away |
| 18:29.08 | ^Migs^ | s/who's/whose/ |
| 18:29.11 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=brasto@71-219-154-236.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 18:29.45 | brasto | if anyone has suggestions on my postfix issue, please say brasto now instead of brast1 |
| 18:30.44 | brasto | John Bytheway spoke at my Golden Key NHS or my Kappa Omicron Nu NHS initiation at BYU - I don't recall which one. |
| 18:31.21 | brasto | TimRiker... you wrote jbot didn't you? |
| 18:31.33 | brasto | ~TimRiker |
| 18:31.45 | ibot | from memory, timriker is my owner http://rikers.org/ mailto:Tim@Rikers.org mailto:TimR@Debian.org maintainer of BZFlag, member of a ton of open source projects http://www.advogato.com/person/timriker/ http://sourceforge.net/users/timriker/ the guy who GPL'd SCO's ABI files, giving every Linux user the right to use them ;-), or a very cool guy. |
| 18:31.48 | brac | [Tim Riker World] |
| 18:32.01 | tensai | ~who's your daddy? |
| 18:32.03 | ibot | YOU are, Mr Sexy Pants! |
| 18:32.51 | brasto | wait... does that say jbot or ibot? hard to tell with my font... |
| 18:33.46 | dataw0lf | EYEbot |
| 18:34.56 | brasto | so, did TimRiker write ibot, or jbot? |
| 18:35.20 | brasto | EYEbot or JAYbot... |
| 18:35.23 | brasto | ~jbot |
| 18:38.53 | bytheway | emcnabb: its going great |
| 18:38.58 | bytheway | emcnabb: how are you doing? |
| 18:40.52 | ^Migs^ | haha: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=821 |
| 18:40.54 | brac | [Piled Higher and Deeper] |
| 18:41.43 | emcnabb | bytheway: doing well |
| 18:41.51 | emcnabb | bytheway: I live out in NC now, just had a kid |
| 18:41.54 | emcnabb | think that's about it |
| 18:42.23 | bytheway | NC, eh? I'm still out in UT, living in murray |
| 18:42.29 | bytheway | have an 8 month old girl |
| 18:42.46 | ^Migs^ | I don't even understand. What did Bytheway even do to earn him his infamy? |
| 18:43.27 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: you mean John Bytheway? |
| 18:43.35 | ^Migs^ | yes |
| 18:43.51 | bytheway | it was really just being in the right place at the right time |
| 18:43.53 | emcnabb | he's a great speaker: interesting and fun |
| 18:44.14 | bytheway | exactly, and he can entertain while giving a useful message |
| 18:44.23 | ^Migs^ | he gives the same exact speech each time. It's boring. |
| 18:44.43 | emcnabb | I was out of town a while back, so my seminary kids watched one of his videos; they loved listening to it, and asked for more |
| 18:44.50 | emcnabb | bytheway: can you hook me up? :-) |
| 18:44.57 | bytheway | :-) |
| 18:45.06 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: most people who speak do repeat talks at time |
| 18:45.06 | emcnabb | s |
| 18:45.09 | emcnabb | that's normal |
| 18:45.16 | emcnabb | what's the big deal? |
| 18:45.17 | ^Migs^ | yeah, but he has only, like, one speech |
| 18:45.24 | ^Migs^ | you'd think he'd have at least 2 or 3 |
| 18:45.25 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: whatever |
| 18:45.27 | bytheway | no, he's got a number of different talks |
| 18:45.36 | emcnabb | bytheway: ^Migs^ is our local troll |
| 18:45.38 | ^Migs^ | prove it |
| 18:45.51 | bytheway | http://deseretbook.com/authors/author-info?author_id=7996 |
| 18:46.05 | emcnabb | he's right up there with all of the teenagers that jump on #utah |
| 18:46.24 | ^Migs^ | oh |
| 18:46.59 | ^Migs^ | since when does he have all those books? He didn't have that many books, like, 15 years ago. |
| 18:47.09 | emcnabb | rofl |
| 18:47.12 | ^Migs^ | wowow |
| 18:47.28 | emcnabb | there goes ^Migs^ |
| 18:47.45 | bytheway | he's got his faults, but he saved my dad's life 17 years ago, so I have a hard time thinking much bad about him |
| 18:48.13 | bytheway | (gave my dad one of his kidney's) |
| 18:48.36 | ^Migs^ | that's pretty cool |
| 18:49.02 | emcnabb | bytheway: the one the kids liked was "The Best Three Hours of the Week" |
| 18:49.04 | bytheway | that was back when the donor had a much more horrific surgery than the recipient |
| 18:49.08 | ^Migs^ | haha: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=794 |
| 18:49.09 | brac | [Piled Higher and Deeper] |
| 18:49.14 | ^Migs^ | sooo true |
| 18:49.33 | bytheway | nowadays they basically just scope the donor through a little incision. John basically was cut open from belly to back along one side |
| 18:50.11 | brasto | john bytheway understood truth, too... he left the U to go to the Y... |
| 18:50.12 | bytheway | emcnabb: so where are you working? stil doing linux stuff? |
| 18:50.22 | emcnabb | bytheway: yeah, I work for Red Hat |
| 18:50.40 | emcnabb | bytheway: how about you? still working at DB? |
| 18:50.46 | emcnabb | ~lart bytheway |
| 18:50.46 | ibot | brandishes Excalibur! "With this sword, I vanquish thee, bytheway!" and lops off bytheway's head |
| 18:50.48 | bytheway | no, I'm with a small startup |
| 18:50.59 | emcnabb | bytheway: which one? |
| 18:51.08 | bytheway | mostly web marketing stuff and lead generation |
| 18:51.19 | emcnabb | cool |
| 18:51.22 | *** join/#utah hatul30 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-ba37738209a595c1) |
| 18:51.23 | bytheway | fatbottomline.com |
| 18:51.30 | bytheway | (and an unforgettable name) |
| 18:51.38 | ^Migs^ | could you come install JBoss for us, emcnabb? |
| 18:51.59 | ^Migs^ | I'm ready to take a trip to India and punch some people in the face |
| 18:52.09 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: I'm no jboss expert, sorry |
| 18:52.15 | ^Migs^ | k |
| 18:52.20 | vontrapp | ~hug ricola |
| 18:52.30 | ibot | ACTION gets a running start and tackle-hugs ricola |
| 18:52.45 | vontrapp | much better than that halls crap |
| 18:52.48 | emcnabb | if you do end up going to India to attack people, I'd love to see a video of it |
| 18:53.12 | Supaplex | same here. |
| 18:53.15 | emcnabb | (not that I have anything against folks there) |
| 18:53.57 | vontrapp | ~paint india |
| 18:54.00 | ibot | ACTION rains a tape stream of paintballs on india |
| 18:55.32 | ^Migs^ | I don't have anything against most Indians. Just Indians who pretend they can do tech support. |
| 18:55.47 | tensai | brasto: yes, TimRiker wrote at least a lot of it |
| 18:56.00 | tensai | brasto: I think it's a fork from another project though |
| 19:15.31 | TimRiker | huh? wha? |
| 19:16.12 | TimRiker | ~blootbot |
| 19:16.14 | ibot | hmm... blootbot is an IRC bot written in perl descended from infobot. Hosted on SF. Patches welcome, submit on SF or mailto:Tim@Rikers.org, or http://blootbot.sourceforge.net/ , I am a blootbot |
| 19:16.16 | brac | [B L O O T B O T . H O M E] |
| 19:20.12 | sjansen | So we just discovered a Planet "feature": if your feed includes entries that are more than a year old, as your punishment for not blogging frequently you break the entire planet. |
| 19:21.35 | sjansen | http://www.gurulabs.com/goodies/putty.php |
| 19:21.36 | brac | [Guru Labs] |
| 19:22.24 | Tene | That's a pretty cool feature. |
| 19:27.17 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@143-106.dynamicpool.suu.edu) |
| 19:29.22 | herlo | sjansen: way to go |
| 19:29.52 | brasto | cool. you da man TimRiker |
| 19:33.17 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@otherlab.cs.byu.edu) |
| 19:35.30 | emcnabb | sjansen: was that me? |
| 19:35.37 | emcnabb | (who broke it) |
| 19:38.38 | tensai | emcnabb: aw, did you look at it again? |
| 19:40.22 | emcnabb | tensai: yeah, I tend to do that. cracked my bathroom mirror just last week |
| 19:40.46 | ^Migs^ | man, I love those phdcomics |
| 19:42.27 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 19:43.17 | graphyx | anyone have a good link to a tutorial about perls -F function? |
| 19:43.43 | graphyx | or is sed a better method of only outputting portions of a log file? |
| 19:43.59 | tensai | perl perl perl! |
| 19:44.34 | Tene | graphyx: man perlrun |
| 19:45.55 | tensai | echo "graphyx,cool" | perl -lan -F, -e 'print $F[0] is $F[1]' |
| 19:49.41 | graphyx | tensai: thats a good demo,. |
| 19:49.51 | graphyx | Should put that one up on a wiki somewhere |
| 19:49.53 | graphyx | =) |
| 19:50.04 | tensai | I've abandoned awk and sed in favor of perl |
| 19:50.14 | Tene | <3 perl |
| 19:50.20 | beandog | that's nothing |
| 19:50.28 | beandog | I've abandoned sanity in favor of Gentoo |
| 19:50.39 | graphyx | I would like to keep it to perl, just have a hard time remembering all those spiffy commands for each time I rarely use it. |
| 19:50.43 | Tene | sanity-- |
| 19:50.53 | levi | Last time I got started reading phdcomics, it ate a whole day. |
| 19:51.01 | graphyx | beandog: there is a lot of truth as well. |
| 19:51.01 | levi | Didn't fall into that trap again today, thank goodness. |
| 19:51.31 | tensai | beandog: isn't that step #1822 of the Gentoo installation guide? |
| 19:51.36 | beandog | heh |
| 19:51.44 | beandog | Abandon hope all ye who enter here. |
| 19:51.54 | beandog | or something. |
| 19:54.56 | levi | http://asimplecode.com/ |
| 19:55.54 | ^Migs^ | that's a retarded code |
| 19:56.26 | ^Migs^ | why must web posters have some code of honor in the first place? |
| 19:57.46 | levi | Because otherwise the web gets filled up with crap from people like you. :P |
| 19:58.02 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: did you not hear about the whole Kathy Sierra incident? |
| 19:59.23 | ^Migs^ | point taken |
| 20:00.10 | levi | The web is a medium for social communication, and when the people involved don't follow some sort of code, the value of the medium declines significantly. |
| 20:00.34 | levi | It doesn't necessarily have to be a written code, but communities almost always have some sort of code of behavior. |
| 20:01.49 | ^Migs^ | I disagree. What you should be able to do is filter out the codeless users from the codeful users. |
| 20:03.15 | levi | Um, I'm making an observation about reality, not an edict about how communities should be. |
| 20:03.22 | Tene | levi: there's no difference for migs |
| 20:03.28 | levi | Tene: Apparently. |
| 20:09.32 | Lone_Wanderer | What is a prime factor? |
| 20:09.56 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: a factor with no other factors than itself and 1 |
| 20:10.15 | Lone_Wanderer | I can't tell if you're serious or not. |
| 20:10.23 | Lone_Wanderer | http://xkcd.com/ |
| 20:10.24 | brac | [xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe] |
| 20:10.27 | levi | That is indeed what a prime factor is. |
| 20:11.30 | levi | Prime factorization is finding the prime numbers that, when multiplied together, yield the original number. |
| 20:11.38 | Lone_Wanderer | ahhh |
| 20:11.47 | Lone_Wanderer | So multiplying two primes together. |
| 20:12.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Can you get any number by multiplying two primes together? |
| 20:12.15 | Tene | no... |
| 20:12.22 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't think so. |
| 20:12.40 | Tene | Where were you in basic math back in elementary school? |
| 20:12.43 | Lone_Wanderer | But the comic seems to imply that you can. |
| 20:12.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Daydreaming. |
| 20:12.49 | Tene | 'kay |
| 20:12.58 | sjansen | emcnabb: Cody |
| 20:13.08 | lukfugl | multiplying N primes, not 2 |
| 20:13.14 | lukfugl | the time in the comic just happened to have 2 |
| 20:13.35 | lukfugl | the prime factors of 8, for instance are { 2, 2, 2 } |
| 20:13.47 | levi | Any whole number greater than 1 can be represented in exactly one way as a product of primes. |
| 20:14.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, so every natural number can be expressed as the product of two or more primes, but not two exactly? |
| 20:14.34 | sjansen | I have a whole lot of empathy for Kathy Sierra. Online threats don't seem like a big idea until you're threatened by an obviously unstable person. |
| 20:14.55 | Tene | sjansen: I'll kill your face and bury it on the moon! |
| 20:15.17 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PrimeFactorization.html |
| 20:15.17 | brac | [Prime Factorization -- from Wolfram MathWorld] |
| 20:15.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Who's Kathy Sierra? |
| 20:15.17 | Lone_Wanderer | thanks |
| 20:15.29 | sjansen | Remember bucky? When his threats started turning violent I started wondering how determined he was to physically track me down and settle his score. |
| 20:15.37 | sjansen | Tene: Sorry, you're too sane to scare me. |
| 20:15.42 | Tene | Crap. |
| 20:15.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Who's Bucky? |
| 20:16.14 | levi | ~buckybot Lone_Wanderer |
| 20:16.17 | ibot | Lone_Wanderer: you're a stupid idiot, and I can tell you that all I want, but if you say anything mean to me, I'll start crying and insulting everything I can, because you're discriminating against me! |
| 20:16.27 | levi | The guy who inspired that. |
| 20:16.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Wow. |
| 20:16.33 | Lone_Wanderer | That's impressive. |
| 20:16.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Was he a minority, or just dumb? |
| 20:17.50 | levi | I assume he was of Native American descent, because that's what all his discrimination claims were about. |
| 20:18.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Gotcha. |
| 20:18.14 | levi | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_arithmetic |
| 20:18.30 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm glad I wasn't around when he was, I would've said a lot of horribly politically incorrect things to him. |
| 20:18.41 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: How do you feel, knowing that you were ignorant of the FUNDAMENTAL theorem of arithmetic? ;) |
| 20:18.57 | graphyx | was he a former #utah? |
| 20:19.01 | graphyx | user? |
| 20:19.03 | levi | graphyx: Yeah. |
| 20:19.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Starting with "If your ancestors hadn't been too dumb to domesticate a large animal or two maybe they would've had a few diseases to hit the Europeans back with." |
| 20:19.16 | graphyx | could we call him a former #utard! |
| 20:19.30 | levi | I'm sure you could go to the logs and find conversations with him. |
| 20:19.32 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: There goes my intentions of majoring in math :'( |
| 20:20.25 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=jayce@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 20:20.26 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 20:21.10 | lukfugl | ~onjoin Jayce^ |
| 20:21.10 | ibot | onjoin for jayce^ set by jayce^ on Wed Mar 28 15:02:19 2007: Kick this |
| 20:21.33 | sjansen | ~kick Jayce^ |
| 20:21.36 | ibot | ACTION kicks Jayce^ |
| 20:21.36 | graphyx | get him TimRiker! |
| 20:21.50 | lukfugl | ~onjoin Jayce^ mode (-o Jayce^) by ibot |
| 20:21.50 | ibot | lukfugl: ok |
| 20:23.19 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: The principles of prime factorization underlie a lot of modern cryptography, too. |
| 20:23.19 | lukfugl | ~onjoin Jayce^ |
| 20:23.19 | ibot | onjoin for jayce^ set by lukfugl on Wed Apr 11 14:21:50 2007: mode (-o Jayce^) by ibot |
| 20:23.19 | graphyx | lukfugl: that is funny |
| 20:23.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, I started thinking cryptography when I saw that page. |
| 20:23.20 | levi | Especially public key cryptography, which relies on the intractability of finding prime factors of large numbers. |
| 20:23.21 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 20:23.29 | Lone_Wanderer | Right. |
| 20:23.37 | levi | However, if it becomes possible to construct a sufficiently large quantum computer, there is a quantum polynomial time algorithm, Shor's algorithm, that can solve it tractably. |
| 20:23.49 | Lone_Wanderer | D'oh. What then? |
| 20:24.09 | levi | Then we look for hard problems that are also hard for quantum computers. |
| 20:24.17 | graphyx | which is why some people are starting to freak out and use like 4096 bit rsa keys for stuff. |
| 20:24.20 | Tene | Of which there are plenty. |
| 20:24.38 | *** join/#utah fungus__ (n=fungus@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 20:24.38 | sjansen | We start exchanging quantum entangled particles for secure communication. |
| 20:25.03 | levi | Well, there's at least one public key cryptographic system that doesn't rely on factorization, but it is patent-encumbered right now. |
| 20:25.08 | sjansen | And you thought 9600 baud was slow! |
| 20:25.09 | graphyx | and you think that key distribution is hard now? |
| 20:25.24 | Tene | ibot: no, sjansen $target is <action> entangles $target's particles. |
| 20:25.26 | ibot | Tene: okay |
| 20:25.36 | levi | Symmetric ciphers and secure hashes aren't as vulnerable to quantum computers. |
| 20:26.08 | Lone_Wanderer | symmetric cyphers (one time pads, right?) are covered by patents? |
| 20:26.31 | levi | There's an algorithm called Grover's algorithm that can give you a quadratic speedup on search problems, but quadratic speedups only effectively cut the key size in half. |
| 20:26.32 | lukfugl | the difficulty in symmetric ciphers is key/pad distribution |
| 20:26.48 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: I didn't say that. |
| 20:26.57 | graphyx | but symmetric ciphers usage is currently leveraging asymmetric key encryption to ensure identity and non-repudiation. |
| 20:27.14 | levi | A public key cryptosystem is a different thing from a symmetric cipher cryptosystem. |
| 20:27.56 | sjansen | ~rot13 If you can read this, you're violating my patent. |
| 20:27.56 | ibot | Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, lbh'er ivbyngvat zl cngrag. |
| 20:28.18 | lukfugl | ~sjansen brac |
| 20:28.20 | ibot | ACTION entangles brac's particles. |
| 20:28.20 | levi | It's exponential speedups that move intractable problems into polynomial time problems, and that's what Shor's algorithm does for prime factorization. |
| 20:29.06 | levi | It's very important to note that quantum computers don't magically move all NP problems into QP, though. |
| 20:30.49 | levi | Only problems that have some sort of clever trick you can use to solve them can be done tractably on a quantum computer. Shor's algorithm takes advantage of some periodicity in the prime factors of the integers. |
| 20:33.09 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=jayce@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 20:33.09 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 20:33.54 | Jayce^ | ~onjoin Jayce^ |
| 20:33.54 | ibot | onjoin for jayce^ set by lukfugl on Wed Apr 11 14:21:50 2007: mode (-o Jayce^) by ibot |
| 20:34.01 | *** kick/#utah [lukfugl!n=jayce@pollux.northsky.com] by Jayce^ (Jayce^) |
| 20:34.03 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 20:34.12 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@dsl092-197-124.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:34.16 | lukfugl | awww |
| 20:34.17 | Jayce^ | ~onjoin Jayce^ NO! |
| 20:34.17 | ibot | ok, Jayce^ |
| 20:35.49 | *** join/#utah {-} (n=sjansen@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 20:36.46 | sjansen | bah humbug |
| 20:37.23 | levi | This is the best layman's explanation for Shor's algorithm I've seen: http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=208 |
| 20:37.37 | levi | Peter Shor even commented on it, saying it was the best he's seen too. |
| 20:38.01 | ^Migs^ | http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/de/dea839aa13706a779cd2833c8201f870de7a49d1.jpg |
| 20:39.40 | sjansen | that's just plain tasteless |
| 20:39.52 | lukfugl | agreed |
| 20:40.34 | lukfugl | and the funny factor is definitely not anywhere near big enough to override the tasteless factor |
| 20:40.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Dare I look? |
| 20:41.36 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: not bad, just stupid |
| 20:41.36 | levi | It's just dumb. |
| 20:41.46 | levi | It's the President putting flowers on a casket, with an Arby's logo above his head. |
| 20:41.59 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh |
| 20:42.05 | ^Migs^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:42.13 | mheath | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Mikhailovich_Prokhudin-Gorskii |
| 20:42.25 | mheath | Thats an odd subject, I know, but I'm confused by the photographs |
| 20:42.50 | mheath | I didn't think we had color photography that early on. Yet these are photos from 1910 that look as clear as if they were taken with a Kodak disposable in 1990. |
| 20:43.15 | Lone_Wanderer | Colorization? |
| 20:43.16 | mheath | Is that just because of massive computer work / restoration / improvement? |
| 20:43.29 | levi | No, did you read the article? |
| 20:44.23 | mheath | levi: The clarity is mainly what I'm amazed by |
| 20:44.33 | mheath | I've never seen a picture from that early on that looks that clear. They're outstanding. |
| 20:45.16 | Lone_Wanderer | holy cow, those are really goood |
| 20:45.59 | emcnabb | I remember looking at those a while back on the LoC website |
| 20:46.10 | emcnabb | pretty cool |
| 20:46.44 | mheath | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Prokudin-Gorskii-19.jpg <--- See, looking at that, I'd have NO indication that wasn't taken yesterday. |
| 20:46.51 | ^Migs^ | ya totally |
| 20:46.56 | ^Migs^ | wow, that's amazing |
| 20:47.05 | mheath | Is it really just the color that makes that big of a difference? |
| 20:47.14 | Lone_Wanderer | The water is cool, it's got all kinds of ghost-things in it. |
| 20:47.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, he was researching photography and made his own cameras. |
| 20:47.32 | mheath | I looked at some black and white pictures taken by the same photography, and they're nothing special for the time (other than the subject matter) |
| 20:47.45 | mheath | *by the same photographer |
| 20:47.58 | Lone_Wanderer | It's safe to assume that he had access to, or could create, higher quality film and cameras than average. |
| 20:48.35 | mheath | And much faster exposure film |
| 20:48.48 | mheath | Everything is crystal clear (except for the water, but it just looks cool) |
| 20:49.25 | mheath | but seriously |
| 20:49.27 | sjansen | emcnabb: Not necessarily. Some of the old photographers compensation for slow exposure speed by using uncomfortable metal restraint to keep the subject from moving. |
| 20:49.29 | ^Migs^ | the color is kind of washed out on some fo them |
| 20:49.32 | ^Migs^ | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Prokudin-Gorskii-08.jpg |
| 20:49.50 | emcnabb | sjansen: ? |
| 20:50.49 | mheath | ^Migs^, IIRC, Red is a really difficult color to expose properly. |
| 20:51.04 | mheath | even in modern films, thats one of their biggest challenges to tackle when designing a film |
| 20:51.45 | mheath | That, and, it says his color process dependended on 3 seperate exposures |
| 20:51.49 | mheath | Which had a slight delay |
| 20:51.52 | ^Migs^ | yeah |
| 20:52.03 | mheath | Very, very, very small it looks like, but still a delay |
| 20:52.11 | mheath | So they move, it messes up the colors AND makes things look blurry. |
| 20:52.19 | Lone_Wanderer | sjansen: Is that why they look so happy in old pictures? |
| 20:52.35 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Actually, yes that is part of it. |
| 20:53.34 | mheath | I heard a lot of that was often because of poor dental habits. |
| 20:53.40 | levi | mheath: He actually used black and white film as he took the pictures. |
| 20:53.44 | mheath | Don't want to smile and show off your black teeth. |
| 20:53.48 | ^Migs^ | here's another one: http://www.magicmouse.com/photos/Produkin-3.jpg |
| 20:54.02 | levi | Creating the color slides was done later. |
| 20:54.17 | Lone_Wanderer | If everyone had poor dental hygiene, would you even think of it as a problem? |
| 20:54.24 | ^Migs^ | of course not |
| 20:54.28 | ^Migs^ | same thing if no one ever took a bath |
| 20:54.58 | mheath | levi: Well, yes, he used monochrome film |
| 20:55.04 | graphyx | the long exposure time is one of the reasons that no one smiles in old photos. |
| 20:55.08 | graphyx | It wasn't fun. |
| 20:55.10 | mheath | But it was still a seperate exposure for each 'color'. |
| 20:55.15 | levi | mheath: Right. |
| 20:55.20 | graphyx | I mean it is hard to hold a smile that long |
| 20:55.25 | Lone_Wanderer | graphyx: yeah |
| 20:55.26 | levi | And a separate projection for each color, too. |
| 20:55.42 | levi | Basically the same way the old projector TVs worked. |
| 20:55.48 | mheath | His system was kind of the end-of-the-road though |
| 20:56.08 | mheath | We would have never gotten to where we are in modern photography if his color system became popular and widely used |
| 20:56.42 | levi | I wouldn't believe that without some more evidence. |
| 20:57.20 | mheath | levi: The quality of modern photography is largely based on rapid exposure time |
| 20:57.34 | mheath | With his system, take any exposure time and triple it. |
| 20:57.57 | levi | That doesn't preclude improvements in exposure time. |
| 20:58.11 | graphyx | Well wish me luck. |
| 20:58.18 | sjansen | ~luck graphyx |
| 20:58.26 | mheath | levi: My point was, if people had widely adopted his system, they would have hit a dead end in advancements. |
| 20:58.27 | graphyx | I will be showing up in slc tomorrow for an interview with L-3 |
| 20:58.30 | Lone_Wanderer | It also doesn't mean that his system becoming widespread would prevent the invention of better systems. |
| 20:58.46 | mheath | You wouldn't ever be able to take pictures of things like sporting events, or pictures in dark areas. |
| 20:58.50 | sjansen | mheath: Electric cars didn't prevent the development of the gasoline engine. |
| 20:59.06 | sjansen | Steam power didn't prevent the discovery of nuclear. |
| 20:59.08 | mheath | Because ISO 800 film becomes ISO 200 film, etc. |
| 20:59.11 | graphyx | his point is the architecture of his system would have been more limited than that of what we currently have. |
| 20:59.21 | Lone_Wanderer | Yes, obviously. |
| 20:59.35 | Lone_Wanderer | But he also said "We would have never gotten to where we are in modern photography if his color system became popular and widely used" |
| 20:59.54 | mheath | It's just one of those techonologies thats cool at the time, revolutionary, but completely unneeded when it comes down to the improved modern way of doing it. |
| 20:59.59 | mheath | Like vacuum tubes. |
| 21:00.16 | graphyx | Hey vacuum tubes are coming back in some audio systems. |
| 21:00.51 | levi | mheath: Your reasoning is flawed, but at least I see where you're coming from now. |
| 21:01.37 | levi | Besides, his system /was/ widely adopted, just not for color photography. |
| 21:01.54 | levi | Anyway, I have a meeting to go to. |
| 21:02.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Have fun. |
| 21:02.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I heard a radio once with vacuum tubes in it. |
| 21:02.15 | Lone_Wanderer | It sounded fantastic. |
| 21:02.20 | Lone_Wanderer | Actually I think it was a record player. |
| 21:02.53 | mheath | I think a lot of that has to do with quality of manufacturing |
| 21:03.18 | mheath | Back 60 years ago, radios were made with alot higher quality standards. Now the manufacturers just advertise "OMG! DIGITAL!" |
| 21:03.38 | mheath | My dad has a McIntosh stereo system. The thing is outstanding |
| 21:03.55 | ^Migs^ | we have a Hello Kitty radio |
| 21:03.57 | mheath | (Though I'll say the speakers are the best component when compared to modern equivelents, and they don't have a thing to do with tubes) |
| 21:04.12 | mheath | Two speaker cabinets, each big enough you could fit several of me in them/ |
| 21:04.33 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm pretty sure it was actually the fact that it had tubes and not modern electronics. |
| 21:04.45 | Lone_Wanderer | A lot of people have said that the tubes give the sound a "warmer" tone. |
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| 21:05.38 | sjansen | A lot of people are just saying that to sound smarter. |
| 21:06.33 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, My dads main opinion is just the manufacturing quality |
| 21:06.45 | ^Migs^ | very likely, imo |
| 21:06.54 | mheath | He used to restore antique audio equipment as a hobby / to make a little money (buy broken things on ebay, restore them, sell them, etc) |
| 21:07.06 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 21:12.18 | levi | I'm sure you can still buy high-quality audio equipment. It's just a lot more expensive. |
| 21:14.17 | levi | Actually, I think manufacturing quality is still high; it's probably the circuit design and quality of components that has reduced. |
| 21:15.03 | levi | If your manufacturing quality goes down, you get poor board yields and your price goes up. So there's incentive to keep that high. |
| 21:15.37 | levi | But cheaping out on your designs and components makes the whole process cheaper. |
| 21:16.44 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=mrpull@205.158.184.126.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:16.59 | Lone_Wanderer | So you really think it's the quality of the old radios that made them sound better, and not that the radio tubes degraded the sound in a specific and pleasing way? |
| 21:17.16 | levi | Instead of carefully laying out your traces to avoid noise, you throw down multi-purpose ICs and hook 'em together with whatever discretes you need to get them to work and a power supply that doesn't interfere too noticeably. |
| 21:19.01 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: I've no doubt that the tube sound was part of the appeal, but I think the other stuff plays a big role as well. |
| 21:20.08 | levi | (my meeting was actually at 3:30. Oops) |
| 21:32.27 | atoponce | i will argue that tubes most definitely give a warmer tone |
| 21:33.07 | atoponce | having attended CES in vegas many times, and visiting the high end audio, with tube apmlifiers, the sound is superb |
| 21:33.34 | atoponce | not to mention, good cabling, high end speakers, and lp players to boot |
| 21:34.13 | atoponce | if you can keep the sound 100% analog from source to destination, it's audibly better |
| 21:34.50 | atoponce | when there is any analog -> digital or digital -> analog, information is lost in the output, and it's noticable |
| 21:35.02 | atoponce | conversion, that is |
| 21:35.13 | mheath | atoponce, one could argue that thats noise. Alteration. Like film photography - a lot of people just shoot film for the neat looking artifacts and characters of the film. |
| 21:35.53 | atoponce | mheath: anyone who is an audiophile would tell you your naive, as i will. you're not losing noise, but information |
| 21:35.56 | mheath | Added warmth still means you're getting something different than just a crystal clear playback of your recording :) |
| 21:36.34 | mheath | atoponce, I was talking about your comment about it being "warmer" |
| 21:36.36 | atoponce | if you have artifacts in your video footage, then you used poor equipment or did not take care of your shooting |
| 21:37.13 | mheath | atoponce, I didn't say anything about video. I said film, as in 35mm vice digital. |
| 21:37.57 | mheath | And I wasn't talking about film destruction or quality issues. I was talking about all the peculiar attributes of film that simply aren't tehre in digital. |
| 21:37.59 | atoponce | photo, video, whatever. if you have artifacts, then either you're not taking care of your equipment, or you have poor equipment |
| 21:38.33 | atoponce | the more information you take out in audio, the more you lose imaging, depth and tone |
| 21:38.42 | atoponce | it's the nature of compression |
| 21:39.14 | atoponce | that's why we're getting into HD- to reproduce, as closely as possible, the analog equivalent |
| 21:39.31 | atoponce | both in visual and audio |
| 21:41.11 | atoponce | so, yes, one could argue that your just losing noise, and digital is superior |
| 21:42.05 | atoponce | but any videophile or audiophile wouldn't pay any mind to you, and dismiss it as ignorance and naivety. :) |
| 21:42.21 | atoponce | ~spell naivety |
| 21:42.32 | atoponce | i don't think so |
| 21:43.03 | Lone_Wanderer | naievity I believe. |
| 21:43.25 | atoponce | !g define:naievity |
| 21:43.27 | UtahBot | Sorry, no search results were found. |
| 21:43.37 | atoponce | !g define:naivety |
| 21:43.39 | UtahBot | Did you mean: define:naivete ? | naivete: lack of sophistication or worldliness @ http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=naivety ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=all&q=define:naivety ) |
| 21:43.47 | atoponce | naivete |
| 21:43.57 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahh, cool. |
| 21:44.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Anyway. Sound is analog by nature. |
| 21:44.16 | mheath | atoponce, so, what? grainy 400 ISO film in comparison to the visually perfect clarity of 10MP digital is "poor equipment"? |
| 21:44.37 | atoponce | if it's grainy, yes |
| 21:44.43 | mheath | Theres a lot of 'inferior' things in film photography that are just the nature of the film. |
| 21:44.51 | atoponce | brb |
| 21:45.23 | mheath | atoponce, Please. In a well lit room, expose 400 ISO film and have it be as clear as a picture taken by a 10MP camera. |
| 21:46.16 | Lone_Wanderer | The problem with that, mheath, is that film only has as many "pixels" as it has crystals on the film. |
| 21:46.53 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, I know. Thats an attribute of the film. |
| 21:46.58 | Lone_Wanderer | So to make an accurate comparison you'd have to count the crystals per square inch and take a digital picture with the same number of pixels per square inch. |
| 21:47.35 | Lone_Wanderer | In which case the film would produce a superior image, because all pixels in a digital camera are the same size, but all crystals on film are not |
| 21:48.06 | Lone_Wanderer | Which, though I forget the details, allows for a higher quality image. |
| 21:48.29 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, Yes. I know. But none of that had anything to to do with the conversation. |
| 21:48.55 | mheath | Man, this sounds too ender's game-ish. |
| 21:49.03 | mheath | I can't read when I'm working on writing smoething |
| 21:49.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, if I understand correctly, you're saying that digital images are higher quality than those created on film. |
| 21:49.16 | mheath | My writing ends up getting influenced by the things I'm reading :( |
| 21:49.56 | Lone_Wanderer | Which, for modern digital cameras, can be true. But that doesn't mean that digital is inherently superior to analog. |
| 21:50.28 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, Mind reading the first bits of a draft for a chapter in my book for me, tell me what you think? |
| 21:50.39 | Lone_Wanderer | How long is it? |
| 21:50.46 | mheath | Barely started on this chapter. It's very short, right now. |
| 21:50.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Sure. dcrookston@gmail.com. |
| 21:51.00 | Lone_Wanderer | Be prepared for potentially harsh criticism. |
| 21:53.36 | mheath | Just the start of a chapter. But, like I said, I think my writing is being too heavily influenced by some things I'm reading right now....Let me know what you think. It's off. |
| 21:55.09 | mheath | You'll probably hate it. Just some random stuff I'm writing in my spare time, kinda hoping it might grow into something bigger/greater |
| 21:55.20 | elg | pity, I missed the audiophile discussion |
| 21:55.37 | elg | where audiophiles claim to be exempt from the mathematical and physical laws of the universe |
| 21:55.41 | elg | I always enjoy those |
| 21:56.39 | lukfugl | elg: heh |
| 21:58.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Is this the beginning of a novel? |
| 21:58.05 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess I'll see when I start reading. |
| 21:58.13 | elg | novel? |
| 21:58.19 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath |
| 21:58.22 | elg | oh |
| 21:58.23 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, kinda, yes. Like I said, its just some random writings I'm working on. |
| 21:58.30 | mheath | I guess I'm kinda working in that direction. |
| 21:58.37 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 21:58.40 | beandog | hmm |
| 21:58.45 | Lone_Wanderer | you might want to pick up a book called The Art of Dramatic Writing |
| 21:58.46 | beandog | is there a way to download every PDF from a website. |
| 21:58.51 | beandog | using wget |
| 21:58.52 | Lone_Wanderer | (I haven't started reading it yet :p give me a second) |
| 21:58.52 | elg | beandog: of course |
| 21:59.01 | elg | beandog: -m if they haven't disabled it with robots.txt |
| 21:59.39 | elg | but that will download everything. if you just want all the PDF URLs mentioned on a page, |
| 21:59.44 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, I'm concerned that it sounds too much like a parallel ender-verse. I didn't intend for it to sound at all like that, and that little bit is more-or-less just the start of an intro chapter to some text that isn't at all that way..... |
| 21:59.54 | elg | then write a program called "urlgrep" and pipe it into xargs wget |
| 22:00.02 | elg | then send me a copy. I've been meaning to write it |
| 22:00.08 | Lone_Wanderer | well, honestly, if you're going to turn this into a novel, you're going to come back and rewrite it all about five times. |
| 22:00.23 | Lone_Wanderer | So I wouldn't be too concerned :D |
| 22:00.27 | mheath | Yeah, I'm sure I would have to. :P |
| 22:01.54 | Lone_Wanderer | I actually like it. |
| 22:01.57 | Lone_Wanderer | So far. |
| 22:02.13 | Lone_Wanderer | It's an interesting idea. If there were more I'd keep reading. |
| 22:03.19 | Lone_Wanderer | And it didn't remind me of Ender's Game. |
| 22:03.52 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, Not event he bold-faced chapter intro paragraphs? (I'll be honest, I did blatantly steal that idea from OSC) |
| 22:04.22 | beandog | elg: I'm just using -A.pdf |
| 22:04.26 | beandog | that works. |
| 22:04.31 | beandog | so far. |
| 22:04.36 | beandog | taking forever though. meh. |
| 22:04.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, un-bold it. |
| 22:04.49 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't know it was a chapter intro. |
| 22:07.15 | mheath | I've always wanted to work on some longer written work |
| 22:07.33 | mheath | I've never attempted such a thing. I wrote a few short stories in highschool (mostly for english classes) and got a lot of praise for them. |
| 22:08.22 | mheath | The rough concept of this is, a lot of my experiences with the military applied to a very changed and futuristic US Navy |
| 22:09.35 | mheath | (If you can't tell, this is sci-fi - US Navy no longer operates ocean going vessels, they primarily run a space-based fleet) |
| 22:12.00 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, overall you like it though? The limited bits of the story line that were presented.....and the overall writing style? |
| 22:12.28 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@dhcp186.openinternet.gurulabs.com) |
| 22:13.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, the writing style could use work. |
| 22:13.30 | Lone_Wanderer | It's not offensive or anything. |
| 22:13.47 | Lone_Wanderer | But the idea of a change in the way basic training is conducted is interesting |
| 22:14.32 | Lone_Wanderer | So the opening paragraph is good. It goes "Here's what you get if you keep reading", and brings up a lot of questions in my mind, which I want answered. |
| 22:14.59 | Lone_Wanderer | So then you cut to a new recruit, and the message is obviously that we're going to follow him through basic training, "experiencing" firsthand what it's like. |
| 22:21.58 | *** join/#utah Supaplex (i=supaplex@166-70-62-199.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:29.14 | atoponce | mheath: the problem with the argument at hand, as Lone_Wanderer pointed out, is using analog equipment that does not record all the information at hand, cannot be compared to digital |
| 22:29.42 | atoponce | to make the comparisons fair, we need analog information that maximizes it's information recording ability |
| 22:30.08 | atoponce | fortunately, this has been achieved in the early 70s with audio. with video, i'm not sure |
| 22:31.29 | atoponce | i have heard lps that were recorded in the 80s, played back on pure analog equipment, that is technically and noticeable superior, than it's dvda counterpart |
| 22:32.23 | atoponce | and, that has been the case 100% of the time, given the condition that there is no conversions when playing back the analog audio |
| 22:32.27 | lukfugl | http://img40.exs.cx/img40/28/feuerfreimovie.swf |
| 22:36.42 | elg | atoponce: sorry, but you're wrong |
| 22:36.51 | atoponce | elg: why's that? |
| 22:36.56 | atoponce | or, how? |
| 22:37.30 | elg | your assertion that digital is unable to perfectly record and/or reproduce audio is false |
| 22:38.25 | atoponce | my argument, is that digital cannot fully reproduce it's analog counterpart, if the analog recording has maximized the information that it can gather |
| 22:38.35 | elg | which is wrong |
| 22:38.37 | atoponce | in fact, i don't really need to argue it |
| 22:38.44 | elg | i beg to differ |
| 22:38.48 | atoponce | look at it this way: |
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| 22:39.04 | elg | I've looked at it lots of ways. painful ways involving lots of calculus |
| 22:39.08 | elg | it's a mathematical fact |
| 22:39.12 | atoponce | take an analog recording. the recording is stored as a sine wave on the medium |
| 22:39.45 | atoponce | if that analog is converted, then it is stored in 1 and 0s on the medium |
| 22:40.02 | atoponce | graphically speaking, you will have 'bars' underneath your sine wave |
| 22:40.20 | atoponce | where the bars do not touch the sine wave, is lost information |
| 22:40.42 | atoponce | in 16-bit audio, a standard cd, there are 16 'bars' per full sine wave cycle |
| 22:41.03 | atoponce | obviously, the more bars beneath the sine wave, the closer to the analog recording |
| 22:41.50 | mheath | s/full sine wave cycle/period/g |
| 22:41.50 | atoponce | dvda is 20-bit and 24-bit, which is better, than it's 16-bit counterpart |
| 22:41.50 | atoponce | mheath: yes |
| 22:41.50 | elg | well, where do we start |
| 22:41.50 | elg | first, the 16/20/24 bit is in the vertical axis |
| 22:41.54 | atoponce | correct |
| 22:42.03 | atoponce | as is the wave |
| 22:42.11 | elg | it's the precision with which you can represent the sample. 16 bit is more than sufficient to exceed our ability to perceive |
| 22:42.27 | elg | the wave changes along the horizontal (time) axis. |
| 22:42.42 | elg | how often you sample the time axis is the sample rate. |
| 22:42.48 | atoponce | disagreed. it's not hard to hear the difference between 16-bit and 20 or 24-bit |
| 22:43.30 | elg | yes it is |
| 22:44.16 | vontrapp | i think your idea of how a digital signal is stored is off |
| 22:44.21 | atoponce | come to my house. i have same audio samples, that i can reproduce in 12-bit, 16-bit and 20-bit. played side by side, you can hear it. it's noticeable |
| 22:44.40 | atoponce | *very* noticeable |
| 22:44.49 | vontrapp | digital signals are stored as a sum of frequencies |
| 22:45.08 | vontrapp | _not_ a sequenwe of bars |
| 22:45.09 | atoponce | vontrapp: a little, but my point is to illustrate, so i simplified |
| 22:45.13 | atoponce | correct |
| 22:45.22 | elg | atoponce: you have a sample recorded at 24 bit that you've converted to 16 bits? |
| 22:45.25 | atoponce | illustrating lost audio |
| 22:45.51 | atoponce | elg: i didn't do the converting myself, no. |
| 22:45.59 | elg | then I have no reason to believe you |
| 22:46.05 | vontrapp | very applicable here :) |
| 22:46.11 | mheath | svd? |
| 22:46.11 | atoponce | these are samples that have been picked up at audio demonstrations |
| 22:46.22 | vontrapp | singular value decomposition |
| 22:46.23 | atoponce | the exact same recording that has been converting for me |
| 22:46.33 | elg | put on by audiophiles who believe themselves to be immune to the laws of mathematics and physics |
| 22:46.33 | atoponce | s/ing/ed/ |
| 22:47.10 | elg | send me one of them in 24 bit |
| 22:47.11 | atoponce | elg: it's not mathematics. it's imaging. it's tone. it's depth. overall quality, decreasing ear fatique |
| 22:47.23 | atoponce | do you have a 24-bit player? |
| 22:47.30 | elg | i have a 24-bit sound card yes |
| 22:47.34 | Jayce^ | atoponce, you're asking *elg* this? |
| 22:47.42 | lukfugl | "it's not mathematics" |
| 22:47.54 | elg | and I have a computer that can convert 24 bit files to 12, 16, 20 bits |
| 22:48.11 | elg | and I can send the files back to you and you can have someone help you run a double-blind listening test |
| 22:48.13 | vontrapp | teacher did a demo in class. if you store a 480x640r image with only 120 singular values, it still looks remarkably like the original |
| 22:48.25 | atoponce | lukfugl: audiophiles care not about the mathematics behind the processing, just what i have described above. i don't see what's funny about this |
| 22:48.31 | elg | and when you are able to identify which is which, I'll believe you can hear the difference between 16 and 24 bit samples |
| 22:48.55 | elg | then we can do the same thing with sampling rate if you like |
| 22:48.57 | sjansen | atoponce: Everything is math. Except for placebo effect. |
| 22:49.06 | atoponce | sjansen: ok. |
| 22:49.15 | atoponce | elg: so, are you challenging me then? |
| 22:49.29 | elg | only if you are willing to be wrong |
| 22:49.43 | sjansen | If spending more for tubes and cables makes you feel warm and fuzzy, go ahead. Your brain and the various sensors attached to it can't actually distinguish. |
| 22:49.55 | atoponce | elg: you're on. does your 24-bit card to dts? |
| 22:49.58 | atoponce | s/to/do/ |
| 22:50.12 | elg | does it matter? i'm not doing the listening test |
| 22:50.30 | atoponce | i don't want to send you a sample that your processor can't decode |
| 22:51.11 | vontrapp | besides, if you calculate the exact signal to too much accuracy, there's no way to tell when that signal actually occurs :) |
| 22:51.47 | vontrapp | what's dts? |
| 22:51.47 | elg | well you should stick with a mono uncompressed 24-bit audio file at as high a sample rate as you have convenient |
| 22:52.00 | Lone_Wanderer | is sample rate the same as bit rate? |
| 22:52.06 | elg | not exactly |
| 22:52.06 | atoponce | elg: the only 24-bit audio i have, are encoded into dts |
| 22:52.09 | elg | they're related |
| 22:52.18 | elg | send them along, I'll probably figure out how to decode it |
| 22:52.33 | elg | what I send back will be mono wav files |
| 22:53.05 | atoponce | why mono? |
| 22:53.11 | elg | why not? |
| 22:53.18 | vontrapp | nobody got my quantum mechanics joke :( |
| 22:53.26 | elg | no need to confound things |
| 22:53.33 | sjansen | ~sjansen vontrapp |
| 22:53.35 | ibot | ACTION entangles vontrapp's particles. |
| 22:53.54 | atoponce | the information is recorded into multi-channel audio for the 24-bit. the other sample rates that i have are stereo |
| 22:54.13 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: bit rate is referring to how many bits per second, usually important in a compression algorithm like mp3 where you're trying to reduce bitrate |
| 22:54.15 | vontrapp | atoponce: were only testing the ability to hear bitrate differendes, stereo is irrelevant |
| 22:54.28 | elg | atoponce: ok, see already we have a confounding element |
| 22:54.46 | elg | how can you say you can hear the difference in bitrate if even the number of channels is different |
| 22:54.54 | atoponce | vontrapp: but it aides in the imaging. if i can't image the sound, it makes it more difficult |
| 22:55.06 | Lone_Wanderer | vontrapp: I got it, I just didn't laugh :p |
| 22:55.06 | atoponce | imaging |
| 22:55.21 | vontrapp | ~laugh Lone_Wanderer |
| 22:55.24 | ibot | ibot laughs hysterically at Lone_Wanderer...ow! laughing so hard, it can't breathe... gasp...gasp...gasp.... ..... ... |
| 22:55.32 | atoponce | monoaural audio cannot produce the image sought after |
| 22:55.38 | sjansen | You killed ibot! |
| 22:55.39 | vontrapp | Lone_Wanderer: you killed the bot! |
| 22:55.42 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: sample rate is how many samples per second is in the digital audio signal |
| 22:55.49 | atoponce | that was initally recorded into the medium to begin with |
| 22:55.59 | elg | the more samples per second, the more samples you have to store, and the higher the bitrate, all other things being equal |
| 22:56.05 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 22:56.18 | elg | atoponce: the image has nothing to do with the quantization bits |
| 22:56.23 | Lone_Wanderer | atoponce: That's not the point, I don't think. The point is to determine if you can tell the difference between two bitrates. |
| 22:56.31 | vontrapp | atoponce: so your 24 bit files have more 'image' than your other files |
| 22:56.35 | elg | the image is only a function of the number of channels and where the speakers are |
| 22:56.40 | Lone_Wanderer | Err. Not bitrates. Two something elsese. |
| 22:56.42 | Lone_Wanderer | -s |
| 22:56.43 | vontrapp | hence your percieved difference |
| 22:56.56 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: quantization levels |
| 22:57.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Right. What elg said. |
| 22:57.16 | sjansen | elg: My cat's breath smells like cat food. |
| 22:57.18 | atoponce | i don't care about the quantization of bits. i mearly said, that there is an audible difference. imaging is the techniqe, as well an tone and depth, to determine this |
| 22:57.30 | atoponce | mono can produce the depth, and tone, but not the image |
| 22:57.36 | elg | whether your ear can tell the difference between quantization bins of size 1/2^16 vs. 1/2^24 |
| 22:57.58 | vontrapp | sjansen: your cat is still breathing? |
| 22:58.05 | elg | atoponce: ok, back up. you said you could tell the difference between 16 and 24 bits. that's quantization |
| 22:58.24 | elg | number of bits is orthogonal to number of channels |
| 22:58.25 | atoponce | sure. but every recording i have is in stereo or multi-channel |
| 22:58.41 | elg | sure, and they can be converted to mono easily |
| 22:59.08 | atoponce | fine, but i don't listen to mono, and care not to, due to the degredation of the quality in the output |
| 22:59.08 | elg | whether mono, stereo, or surround, all that matters for this test is that all the signals are exactly the same except for the number of bits used for quantization |
| 22:59.25 | atoponce | ok. then we need to modify the terms |
| 22:59.44 | atoponce | stereo output, and i'll take the challenge |
| 22:59.53 | elg | ok, stereo |
| 23:00.04 | atoponce | and i'm not talking dual-channel monoaural |
| 23:00.07 | lukfugl | all stereo, though, not some stereo others multichannel |
| 23:00.11 | elg | i've no doubt you can tell the difference between stereo and surround |
| 23:00.20 | atoponce | all stereo is sufficient |
| 23:00.27 | atoponce | sure. that's not the test |
| 23:00.41 | elg | right |
| 23:01.09 | atoponce | ok. next in line, is how to get the medium to you |
| 23:01.27 | elg | gmail? |
| 23:01.34 | elg | does gmail have size limits? |
| 23:01.37 | elg | i can't remember |
| 23:01.43 | atoponce | heh. gmail won't handle a physical disk |
| 23:01.56 | vontrapp | disk? |
| 23:02.05 | atoponce | yeah. a dts disk |
| 23:02.10 | elg | we're talking about digital bits right? |
| 23:02.15 | vontrapp | this is digital data we're talking about, right? |
| 23:02.33 | Lone_Wanderer | wait, we're talking about digital, right? |
| 23:02.33 | vontrapp | ~wiki dts |
| 23:02.33 | atoponce | yes... last i checked, dvd-audio is stored digitally |
| 23:02.53 | vontrapp | bah |
| 23:02.58 | atoponce | digital theatre systems |
| 23:03.02 | elg | atoponce: then get the bits off the dvd |
| 23:03.06 | atoponce | the competitor to dolby digital |
| 23:03.11 | elg | then we can use a series of tubes to get them to me |
| 23:03.14 | atoponce | elg: i have not the means to do so |
| 23:03.31 | elg | someone in the vicinity of atoponce have the ability to rip a dvd? |
| 23:03.42 | sjansen | elg: Can't you take a clue? atoponce doesn't actually want to be proved wrong. |
| 23:04.03 | elg | well of course not, nobody does |
| 23:04.09 | atoponce | sjansen: thx for the peanut gallery comments. i am more than willing to be proved wrong |
| 23:04.29 | Lone_Wanderer | I do. Prove me wrong in my belief that no-one will ever love me :'( |
| 23:04.36 | atoponce | i am confident in my ability to discerne audio |
| 23:04.39 | Lone_Wanderer | Especially not, umm. |
| 23:04.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Natalie Portman. |
| 23:04.46 | sjansen | atoponce: You sure do see eager to throw in every obstacle possible to make a simple double blind trial possible. |
| 23:04.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Prove me wrong! |
| 23:05.00 | beandog | meh. |
| 23:05.06 | elg | sjansen: no it's ok, in order to believe the results we have to use his favorite file |
| 23:05.08 | beandog | You cant disprove anecdotal opinions anyway. |
| 23:05.16 | atoponce | elg: on the 21st, we are having our feisty release party in slc |
| 23:05.33 | atoponce | i can bring the disk there, and get it to you at the next plug meet, or you can attend the meet yourself |
| 23:05.41 | atoponce | probably would be the best way |
| 23:05.42 | elg | sorry, I'm in new mexico |
| 23:06.00 | atoponce | oh. that poses a problem. i thought you were in provo |
| 23:06.04 | Lone_Wanderer | Why not just pick some random audio file? |
| 23:06.25 | Lone_Wanderer | I could send you one, elg. |
| 23:06.26 | beandog | I actually have a DVD in my box at home if you really want a ripped sample. |
| 23:06.46 | atoponce | beandog: could i get you to rip a 24-bit dts encoded audio sample? |
| 23:06.51 | elg | i don't mind which source file we use, so long as it's 24 bit original |
| 23:07.01 | vontrapp | what sample rate does a standard cd have? |
| 23:07.09 | beandog | I can only think of like 2 DVDs off hand that I know have DTS on them |
| 23:07.09 | atoponce | 12 or 16-bit |
| 23:07.12 | elg | 44.1khz 16 bit |
| 23:07.18 | atoponce | beandog: i have plenty. :) |
| 23:07.19 | beandog | Its not very widely used. |
| 23:07.33 | atoponce | no. not compared to dolby. that's for sure |
| 23:07.34 | beandog | besides, my receiver defaults to Dolby anyway when there's a choice |
| 23:07.45 | atoponce | beandog: could you rip one? |
| 23:07.50 | beandog | Actually, Robots is the only one I can think of right now. |
| 23:08.02 | beandog | Im sure there's more... one of the Paramount titles probably. |
| 23:08.28 | beandog | atoponce: not right now I can't |
| 23:08.36 | elg | there's no hurry |
| 23:09.04 | elg | atoponce: now, how are we going to get the digital back to your ears? i take it this isn't your PC but a consumer product? |
| 23:09.10 | atoponce | well, maybe i can rip it. i've never tried, so why not? |
| 23:09.14 | sontek | peace! |
| 23:09.45 | elg | mplayer can probably do it |
| 23:09.56 | elg | if you have a mac handy jack the ripper will work nicely |
| 23:10.03 | beandog | mplayer easily can. |
| 23:10.04 | atoponce | i do have a mac |
| 23:10.11 | beandog | mplayer > * |
| 23:10.28 | elg | oh, it's MacTheRipper |
| 23:10.41 | atoponce | ok. i'll see what i can do tonight |
| 23:10.49 | elg | that will rip the disc removing any copy protection but otherwise the exact same thing as the DVD |
| 23:10.52 | atoponce | beandog: mplayer can rip dvds eh? |
| 23:10.57 | beandog | of course! |
| 23:10.59 | levi | Hah, thank goodness for scrollback. :) |
| 23:11.00 | atoponce | cool |
| 23:11.07 | levi | My money's on elg. |
| 23:11.11 | elg | then you could get that to me in all its glorified bits |
| 23:11.27 | elg | or you could figure out how to rip the audio of just one track or whatever |
| 23:11.30 | atoponce | ok. so, i send you the audio, and you do the converting, then send the samples back to me |
| 23:11.36 | elg | ya |
| 23:11.43 | atoponce | yeah. it'll just be a single track |
| 23:12.14 | elg | so will it play over your PC or do we need to make a DVD? |
| 23:12.32 | atoponce | i can make it back to a dvd with the mac, i'm sure |
| 23:12.46 | elg | well I'm wondering if we can script the double blind test |
| 23:12.47 | atoponce | for the 16 and 12 bit, i'll just burn to cd |
| 23:12.52 | elg | what's blinder than a computer, after all? |
| 23:13.00 | elg | well see but that wouldn't be blind |
| 23:13.24 | levi | atoponce: If you know which one you're listening to, you're likely to perceive things that aren't there. |
| 23:13.51 | levi | Your brain is the biggest part of your visual and auditory senses. |
| 23:14.02 | atoponce | levi: right. when i'm listening, i don't want to know what bitrate i'm listening to |
| 23:14.11 | tensai | ~rlart |
| 23:14.14 | ibot | whacks TheTiGuR upside the head |
| 23:14.16 | elg | probably the best thing to do is set up a script to author a DVD (or better, a few of them) without telling you which track is which until after the test |
| 23:14.48 | sjansen | elg: Burn multiple copies of each version. Send them to levi who will assign random labels to each disk. See if atoponce can successfully group and rank each disk. |
| 23:14.48 | elg | then you try to identify them by track number (and ideally have a statistically significant number of people do the same) |
| 23:15.32 | elg | and I send the track details to someone else before the test |
| 23:15.36 | elg | gpg-signed |
| 23:15.44 | atoponce | perfect |
| 23:15.50 | elg | and encrypted for the heck of it :) |
| 23:15.57 | lukfugl | w00t |
| 23:17.20 | levi | If this actually ever happens, I will be interested in hearing the result of the test. |
| 23:18.00 | atoponce | ok. so, i'll receive 3 files, obfusicated, at which i burn all three to a dvd |
| 23:18.29 | vontrapp | levi receives files |
| 23:18.40 | atoponce | you also send a gpg signed text with the answers |
| 23:18.44 | elg | i'll send you back a dvd image which you can burn |
| 23:18.46 | atoponce | to someone else |
| 23:18.50 | elg | or we can involve the middle man |
| 23:18.53 | atoponce | even better |
| 23:18.54 | vontrapp | you receive pre-burned cds |
| 23:18.56 | levi | Hey, sjansen volunteered me; I never accepted. |
| 23:19.00 | atoponce | a dvd image would be better |
| 23:19.08 | elg | yeah, dvd image should be good enough |
| 23:19.17 | elg | it'll probably have 6 or 9 tracks though |
| 23:19.19 | Lone_Wanderer | How many people would have to rank these for it to be statistically significant? |
| 23:19.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Don't you have to get 2,500 or something? |
| 23:19.31 | atoponce | ok. now, how can i know that you signed the text before i make my conclusions? |
| 23:19.43 | elg | gpg signing includes the date, no? |
| 23:19.46 | vontrapp | well, don't have mplayer tell you the encoding details :/ |
| 23:20.02 | elg | third party could send you the signature before the test |
| 23:20.13 | elg | and then forward the message itself after the test |
| 23:20.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Can't you turn it down to 16 bits and then back up to 24? |
| 23:20.16 | elg | and you could compare sigs |
| 23:20.18 | atoponce | not that i am aware of. the signature is just an encrypted version of the hash of the text |
| 23:21.00 | elg | or I could just send you the sig and send the message itself to third party |
| 23:21.02 | atoponce | lemme double check |
| 23:21.12 | vontrapp | i've heard it said a gpg signed peice should always have a date, though i'm steptical as to why |
| 23:21.18 | elg | heck, we probably don't need a third party unless you think I can find an md5 or sha-1 collision |
| 23:21.43 | elg | so, I write the message and the dvd iso, send you the iso and the sig of the message |
| 23:21.46 | elg | you do the test |
| 23:21.47 | levi | Can't you guys just trust one another? Yeesh. |
| 23:21.50 | elg | then I send the message and you check the signature |
| 23:22.05 | elg | levi: of course we can, but atoponce likes security games |
| 23:22.05 | atoponce | ok. the signature does include a date timestamp |
| 23:22.11 | atoponce | we're good |
| 23:22.30 | vontrapp | but can't a date timestamp be easily spoofed? |
| 23:22.53 | atoponce | levi: of course we can, but i want no possibility for mistake or cheating, on my part or his, during any part of this. |
| 23:22.54 | lukfugl | I second the simple digest scheme |
| 23:24.01 | atoponce | elg: you don't need to send me the sig. just send me all the full gpg-signed text after i make my decision as to what is what |
| 23:24.13 | atoponce | the date timestamp is in there |
| 23:24.17 | elg | ok |
| 23:25.10 | atoponce | cool. so, due to file size, i'm sure that i want to send just one track, maybe two |
| 23:25.12 | elg | fugalh@gmail.com |
| 23:25.18 | vontrapp | the timestamp seems useless |
| 23:25.21 | atoponce | email might not handle it, if not, i can host it on my server |
| 23:25.25 | elg | ok |
| 23:25.32 | atoponce | vontrapp: why's that? |
| 23:26.11 | vontrapp | well, i just can't think of a usage scenario in which the timestamp would actually do anything |
| 23:26.22 | vontrapp | you're welcome to give me one |
| 23:26.53 | atoponce | it just tells me when the tex was signed. if i give my conclusions before the date timestamp, then i can't trust the results are accurate |
| 23:27.57 | atoponce | i guess it just says that the text was signed on this day and time, and there's no going back. it eliminates deniability |
| 23:28.06 | vontrapp | example, you decide something, i spoof my data to make your decisions look random. i compile my results, put in yesterday as the timestamp, sign and send |
| 23:28.40 | vontrapp | there's nothing that verifies the timestamp is an accurate timestamp |
| 23:28.52 | atoponce | gpg puts the time stamp in. but i see what you're saying. |
| 23:29.03 | findlay | guess what? |
| 23:29.05 | atoponce | i could modify my time, when signing the text |
| 23:29.23 | findlay | I made it so you couldn't order a negative number of items on my site :) |
| 23:29.34 | lukfugl | findlay, that's no fun |
| 23:29.39 | atoponce | elg: ok. then send me the sig with the image |
| 23:29.44 | elg | check |
| 23:29.54 | findlay | lukfugl: the fun thing is the easter egg I put in the data validation if you try it :-) |
| 23:30.00 | vontrapp | so really, you have the _signature_ first, do the test, then get the data to which the signature corresponds |
| 23:30.15 | atoponce | that works for me |
| 23:30.22 | elg | which is secure provided I can't whip up a hash collision :) |
| 23:30.35 | atoponce | heh. i'd be impressed if you could. :) |
| 23:30.36 | lukfugl | it's the perfect sealed envelope (at least perfect until someone can cheaply generate a hash collision that says what they want it to) |
| 23:31.06 | lukfugl | findlay: I guess that's acceptable, then :) |
| 23:31.56 | atoponce | where's beandog? he leave? |
| 23:32.16 | atoponce | blast. i may need his help ripping the audio |
| 23:35.18 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer finally wanders home |
| 23:35.54 | sjansen | ~laser elg |
| 23:36.05 | findlay | ~shoot sjansen |
| 23:36.08 | ibot | ACTION shoots sjansen in the ear with a cork gun! |
| 23:36.19 | sjansen | ~thwap findlay |
| 23:36.21 | ibot | ACTION thwaps findlay on the nose with a 2 by 4 |
| 23:36.31 | findlay | ~bzfrag Lone_Wanderer |
| 23:36.33 | ibot | ACTION kills Lone_Wanderer with a shot from his BZTank |
| 23:36.35 | sjansen | Pure Genius! |
| 23:36.50 | Lone_Wanderer | I thought it was Real Genius? |
| 23:36.54 | lukfugl | REal Genius |
| 23:37.05 | findlay | I thought it was Real Sandy |
| 23:37.16 | Lone_Wanderer | For some reason, I used to actually believe that college would be like that movie. |
| 23:37.24 | findlay | what movie? |
| 23:37.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Real Genius. |
| 23:37.32 | findlay | oh |
| 23:37.35 | Lone_Wanderer | ~geekschool findlay |
| 23:38.50 | sjansen | Bah, can't believe I forgot that. Maybe I'd be Better Off Dead. |
| 23:39.52 | Lone_Wanderer | If someone killed themselves, and you went back in time to before they did so, and then brought them (still alive) forward in time to after they killed themselves... |
| 23:40.54 | Lone_Wanderer | would seeing their friends and relatives reactions to their own death be enough to stop them from doing it again? |
| 23:42.10 | vontrapp | no, because if it stopped him, there would be no reactions to watch |
| 23:42.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Well you c... |
| 23:42.55 | Lone_Wanderer | hmm. |
| 23:43.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, at any rate, at least they'd still be alive, innit? |
| 23:43.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Or would your stopping him from killing himself cancel out your initial reason for going back in time? |
| 23:43.35 | elg | they'd either be reacting to the sudden disappearance or the suicide |
| 23:43.43 | elg | presuming the very act of time travel didn't already change his mind |
| 23:43.56 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess you'd just have to come up with a different reason to go back in time. Like to show off your rockin' time machine. |
| 23:44.04 | elg | I mean, if I was suicidal and then discovered time travel was real I might be a little less suicidal. think of all the fun you could have |
| 23:44.11 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd have tons of fun. |
| 23:44.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Like, I'd umm. |
| 23:44.29 | Lone_Wanderer | Crap. I don't know. |
| 23:44.43 | vontrapp | it's like when rose saved her dad |
| 23:45.10 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess the obvious answer is to go back in time to when I was born with a couple hundred bucks and buy stocks in Microsoft in my own name. |
| 23:45.12 | vontrapp | monsters came to eat them until the reason for the travel in the first place was restored |
| 23:45.26 | Lone_Wanderer | What story is that from vontrapp? |
| 23:45.51 | vontrapp | doctor who |
| 23:45.52 | sjansen | Douglas Adams demonstrated conclusively that paradoxes aren't a big deal. The universe is constantly absorbing paradoxes. |
| 23:45.58 | Lone_Wanderer | Like what? |
| 23:46.07 | vontrapp | my favorite time travel story is Bill and Ted |
| 23:46.23 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think it'd rip the universe apart, but it does introduce tricky questions into the events surrounding the travel itself. |
| 23:46.48 | levi | elg: That's the whole plot of 'Time Enough for Love' in a nutshell. ;) |
| 23:47.24 | sjansen | I don't remember now. But he did. |
| 23:47.29 | Lone_Wanderer | My favorite love/time travel story is one I read in an independently-collected collection of short stories |
| 23:48.14 | elg | as opposed to dependently-collected? |
| 23:48.16 | Lone_Wanderer | The narrator is in college and he meets a beautiful woman at a party, they fall in love, etc. |
| 23:48.21 | vontrapp | we're not talking about love, we're talking about time travel |
| 23:48.32 | Lone_Wanderer | she turns out to be a physicist who's invented a time machine |
| 23:48.49 | Lone_Wanderer | and wants to go back to when she was 18 months old and was discovered abandoned in a parking lot |
| 23:48.53 | Supaplex | I own a time machine. |
| 23:48.55 | Lone_Wanderer | to find out who her parents are |
| 23:48.58 | Supaplex | I call it a watch. |
| 23:49.12 | Lone_Wanderer | the only thing she had with her was a necklace |
| 23:49.33 | Lone_Wanderer | on the way to sending her off, the narrator finds the same necklace in a store and buys it for her |
| 23:49.59 | Lone_Wanderer | she says "Hey thanks, I was wondering where I'd put that." Gets in the time machine and poof, it all starts over again. |
| 23:50.40 | Lone_Wanderer | The narrator is the only person in the story who remembers anything from one loop to the next, and he occasionally thinks about telling her what's going on |
| 23:51.01 | Lone_Wanderer | but by staying silent he gets to keep falling in love with her over and over forever |
| 23:51.26 | vontrapp | um, so when she goes back she's 18 mo old again? |
| 23:51.29 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 23:51.36 | Lone_Wanderer | that's how she ended up there. she was never abandoned. |
| 23:51.52 | Lone_Wanderer | The question of how it ever got started in the first place was never posed :p |
| 23:53.02 | vontrapp | so, if i invent a time machine and go back in time, i can basically be responsible for my very existence? |
| 23:53.30 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't know :p |
| 23:53.54 | Lone_Wanderer | and by independent I mean it wasn't done by a publishing company |
| 23:54.39 | Lone_Wanderer | http://www.curledup.com/peddler.htm that's the book |
| 23:54.40 | brac | [The Peddler and the Cloud -- book review] |
| 23:55.00 | Lone_Wanderer | I met the guy who put the collection together when I outbid him on a limited edition hardcover by Zelazny |
| 23:57.27 | vontrapp | in grub, to not boot something automatically, you just have no timeout defined? or do you have timeout=0? or default not defined? |
| 23:58.00 | findlay | I have timeout=0 |
| 23:58.17 | findlay | but I think you can still get to the menu if you're quick |
| 23:58.38 | findlay | oh, you want no timeout, :) |
| 23:58.47 | findlay | well, timeout=0 won't work then |
| 23:58.49 | vontrapp | no, i want it to do _nothing_ until i say so |
