| 00:00.51 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 00:13.04 | ScytheBlade1 | I've decided that windows itself is a perfectly fine OS |
| 00:13.13 | ScytheBlade1 | But no one, bar no one, has any clue how to code for it |
| 00:15.36 | mheath | ScytheBlade1, indeed. |
| 00:15.56 | mheath | Windows applications lack desktop unity |
| 00:16.15 | mheath | They do not provide a consistent look, feel, functionality, nor do they use or provide consistent APIs |
| 00:16.17 | Tene | My current frustration is that windows is repeatedly popping up the atorun thing for my cdrom drive |
| 00:16.19 | ScytheBlade1 | Heh, lies |
| 00:16.59 | ScytheBlade1 | They have consistent look, feel, and functionality |
| 00:17.00 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: orly? |
| 00:17.00 | ScytheBlade1 | They ALL suck as far as running as guest is concerned |
| 00:17.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Trust me, that's as uniform as you can get |
| 00:17.00 | ScytheBlade1 | They ALL suck |
| 00:17.12 | mheath | ScytheBlade1, no, they have a very inconsistent look and feel |
| 00:17.23 | mheath | To give a perfect example thats pissing me off at the moment: Lexmark print drivers |
| 00:17.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Lexmark is the most retarded of the retarded. |
| 00:17.34 | ScytheBlade1 | Special case. |
| 00:17.36 | mheath | Whats wrong with using the printing and scanning software that ships with Windows? |
| 00:17.54 | mheath | You know, the simple-yet-funcctional software that integrates well into the OS? |
| 00:17.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah. It's what HP uses. |
| 00:18.01 | mheath | We have to invent our own print dialog |
| 00:18.01 | ScytheBlade1 | Buy HP. |
| 00:18.07 | mheath | And our own sound |
| 00:18.21 | mheath | "Printing Started!..........."Printing Complete!" |
| 00:18.24 | Tene | Ew. HP is on my blacklist right now, for windows boxes. |
| 00:18.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Why in the world is HP blacklisted? |
| 00:18.51 | Tene | They just worke don my laptop, and the windows install on there when it was shipped back was loaded with ridiculous crap. |
| 00:19.05 | ScytheBlade1 | Luckily, laptops aren't printers |
| 00:19.18 | Tene | yeah, I know. |
| 00:19.30 | ScytheBlade1 | My comment was merely concerning printers, nothing more ;) |
| 00:19.41 | mheath | Tene, yeah, HP computers SUCK |
| 00:19.41 | ScytheBlade1 | I couldn't tell you a thing about their laptops. |
| 00:19.44 | Tene | yeah, I know. |
| 00:20.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Their printers are *very* well done, period |
| 00:20.12 | mheath | I'm happy. I'm not really the all-knowing-tech-guy that gets asked to fix everyones minor computer problems here |
| 00:20.21 | mheath | 99% of people here are reasonably technically competent. |
| 00:20.27 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: yes, I agree. All of the HP printers I've used have been very nice. |
| 00:20.53 | Tene | mheath: can't you just use the normal windows printing system for the printer? |
| 00:21.09 | Tene | isn't it possible to just load the printer driver, and not all the other crap software? |
| 00:21.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Tene, same. That's nearly all we buy for work. TCP/IP, DHCP, and PCL/PCL6 support. Multiple trays, multiple paper sizes per tray. Couldn't ask for more. |
| 00:21.49 | mheath | Tene, printing, yes, but it's a pain. |
| 00:21.50 | mheath | Scanning, no. |
| 00:21.51 | Tene | ahh |
| 00:21.53 | mheath | Printer configuration, no. |
| 00:22.13 | Tene | That's... awkward. |
| 00:22.24 | mheath | copying on the printer (by pressing the Copy button) is also disabled unless you use their software. |
| 00:22.31 | Tene | I've never really used printers much at all on windows. |
| 00:22.35 | Tene | That's... ridiculously stupid. |
| 00:22.52 | ScytheBlade1 | I'll give you that much, mheath... printer/scanner support by vendors for windows is a festering cesspool of liquid crap. |
| 00:23.04 | ScytheBlade1 | However, I buy HP. :) |
| 00:23.06 | mheath | (I mean, its to be expected that copying requires a software component...its not a true copier....but why not integrate that into the DRIVER?) |
| 00:23.24 | mheath | ScytheBlade1, see, if they would just make proper use of the provided Windows APIs, things would be fine.. |
| 00:23.28 | mheath | Its that way with programs too |
| 00:23.29 | brac | see, if I had ops I'd boot you. |
| 00:23.38 | mheath | .... |
| 00:23.39 | Tene | brac: same to you. ;) |
| 00:23.48 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, it is integrated into the driver. It's just integrated to pass it off to their own custom program that's running 24/7. :) |
| 00:23.54 | Tene | -chat |
| 00:23.55 | brac | I recommend the experience in |
| 00:24.03 | mheath | I think brac is actually getting smarter. |
| 00:24.17 | mheath | Its that way with every program, though |
| 00:24.25 | mheath | Every program insists on doing things their own way |
| 00:24.34 | ScytheBlade1 | For work, I just got a new packet about a website we use, and how they are going to launch a new version of it |
| 00:25.05 | ScytheBlade1 | 17 pages of telling IE to run any and all, signed, unsigned, marked as safe, marked as non safe, run any and all scripts on the site, blindly download fonts, files, and applets, and globally enable scripting. |
| 00:25.21 | ScytheBlade1 | Then downloading, and installing an ActiveX control... as an admin |
| 00:25.55 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: why don't they just distribute an executable if they're doing that much? |
| 00:25.56 | ScytheBlade1 | Problem for me, is that I get to do this in three buildings... sandy, salt lake, and bountiful.. with sandy having 30ish computers, salt lake having 20ish, and bountiful having 5 |
| 00:26.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Tene, say that and I'll HURT you. Every mentioned IE setting can be controlled via group policy, also known as "click click click done, changes applied to every computer in the company" |
| 00:26.55 | ScytheBlade1 | What they need to do is provide a MSI package with the ActiveX control in it, so I can also go "click click click done" |
| 00:27.15 | Tene | build one yourself? |
| 00:27.32 | Tene | Would probably be faster than doing it all by hand. |
| 00:27.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Which I've done before. Problem is, they're not releasing the ActiveX in question until the day their site goes live. |
| 00:28.18 | ScytheBlade1 | As I said... windows itself is a great platform. It just seems that *not one software developer* has any clue how to work with it. |
| 00:28.45 | mheath | I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is a great platform |
| 00:28.46 | Tene | So, one of the trashy bits of software installed on my laptop was 'Vongo' |
| 00:28.49 | mheath | But an OK platform |
| 00:29.04 | Tene | Apparently some subscription-based video download service |
| 00:29.08 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, why is that? |
| 00:29.31 | Tene | The 'add/remove programs' uninstaller for it runs, but then the next time you boot, it reinstalls itself |
| 00:29.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Tene, lol. Quality software. |
| 00:29.51 | mheath | ScytheBlade1, security issues inherent in it (though I really do think thats been improved a lot in Vista) |
| 00:30.04 | mheath | And a (when used properly) very functional but ultimately inferior API |
| 00:30.11 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, all of which are solved by running as guest. Which I enforce. |
| 00:30.13 | Tene | they sell a $20 uninstaller that removes more of it, but then it reinstalles itself if you create a new user, log into a domain, or a few other situations. |
| 00:30.36 | ScytheBlade1 | And I'm not qualified to comment on their API. Never coded to it. |
| 00:31.00 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: not all security issues aren't solved by running as guest. |
| 00:31.02 | mheath | Tene, I could get it off :) |
| 00:34.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Tene, examples? ;) |
| 00:34.20 | mheath | I worked at a computer sales place that had a 4 year labor warranty |
| 00:34.20 | Tene | mheath: that's rather likely |
| 00:34.20 | mheath | Lots and lots of removing crap from windows computers |
| 00:34.21 | mheath | I think our record virus scan was somewhere in the 1,200 virus range, and our record spyware scan was somewhere in the 5,000 range. |
| 00:34.21 | mheath | (on one computer) |
| 00:34.22 | mheath | Yes: Someone in this world has managed to install 1,200 virii on their computer. |
| 00:34.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Tene, know of any windows-specific issues that are present as guest, as compared to administrator? |
| 00:34.22 | mheath | (that was a Windows 98 computer that took several hours to boot; we ended up sticking the HDD in another machine to pull the data off of it, and then reformating......the virus scanner ran, but ultimately froze) |
| 00:34.22 | Tene | mheath: my point is that it's not possible to get stuff so hidden and broken in linux, unless you resort to rootkits and such. |
| 00:34.22 | mheath | Tene, I would argue that |
| 00:34.22 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: the shatter attack, for one, although that doesn't apply to Vista anymore. |
| 00:34.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Shatter attack? |
| 00:34.29 | Tene | ~wiki shatter attack |
| 00:34.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Already ahead of you |
| 00:34.58 | mheath | I would simply say that most Linux users are familiar with and make routine use of the only real way to hide and break things like that. They're hidden, but they'd be noticed right away |
| 00:35.19 | mheath | Whereas get an uniformed, inexperiened user, and.... :) |
| 00:35.25 | brac | Whereas get an app to a noteable reduction in paper. |
| 00:35.31 | ScytheBlade1 | "By design, all services within the interactive desktop are peers, and can levy requests upon each other." |
| 00:35.35 | Tene | that's just the one that I remember offhand, and I don't even follow security very much |
| 00:35.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Adjustable setting in services.msc |
| 00:36.27 | mheath | I really like Linux, but I don't subscribe to the "Linux has no flaw, beats Windows in every way, and is the answer to all of our problems" group. |
| 00:37.01 | Tene | That's a ridiculous position to endorse, mheath, of course you don't subscribe to it. |
| 00:38.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Haha, I'm so playing the devil's advocate here.. |
| 00:38.11 | mheath | Tene, unfortunately, a lot of zealots do. |
| 00:38.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Running windows with guest abilities is as secure as running as a typical linux user. |
| 00:39.06 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: That's probably approximately true, yeah. |
| 00:39.16 | mheath | Hmm |
| 00:39.16 | Tene | With qualifications related to the software you use. |
| 00:39.24 | mheath | Heres an interesting questions |
| 00:39.25 | Tene | outlook, IE, etc. |
| 00:39.43 | mheath | When writing a fairly small program, that has a lot of potential to grow over time... |
| 00:40.05 | mheath | Does one put a lot of extra effort at first, making a good framework for feature expansion/expanded functionality? |
| 00:40.28 | mheath | Or do they code the program in a simple way, and deal with all the implementation of additions later? |
| 00:40.34 | Tene | mheath: I think that depends on the environment you're writing it in, to a large degree. |
| 00:40.39 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah.. |
| 00:40.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Lots of answers to that question, none of which are correct. |
| 00:40.49 | Tene | Some environments are easier to refactor. |
| 00:41.10 | Tene | Java, for example, I've heard has excellent tools for refactoring code. |
| 00:41.34 | Tene | However, for a counterpoint, I've worked with a few PHP systems that were drastically overengineered. |
| 00:41.48 | Tene | Much more complex and enterprisey than they needed to be. |
| 00:41.50 | Tene | And it was a pain. |
| 00:42.09 | mheath | I'm starting a new project, with something pretty simple at first. |
| 00:42.11 | Tene | (mostly, IMO, because PHP is terrible for large systems) |
| 00:42.26 | mheath | I'm not sure how far I want to take it now, but I don't want to close any doors to me by the way I proogram things early on. |
| 00:42.32 | Tene | However, my *personal* stance is to only build what I need in the immediate future. |
| 00:42.39 | Tene | And then refactor as I go. |
| 00:43.15 | Tene | That works pretty well for me with the conventions and environment my company uses and I use for personal projects. |
| 00:43.27 | ScytheBlade1 | Tene, I'd debate *that* point (PHP + large systems). Largely, because you'll only see one of two things in PHP: average/sub average code, or "correctly written" code. It just happens that you see the latter nearly never. |
| 00:44.21 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: do you want no response, a political response, or a personal response? |
| 00:44.26 | *** join/#utah zerdith (n=zerdith@66-188-62-36.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com) |
| 00:44.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Any of the above :) |
| 00:45.51 | Tene | My belief is that PHP is very poorly suited for use in large systems, and while you *can* do it a lot better than is usually done, that doesn't mean it's a good tool for the job. |
| 00:46.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Okay. So, wikipedia. There's a tool/language out there that could have done a better job? |
| 00:47.46 | Tene | Tools and languages don't do jobs, people do. Wikipedia was built by skilled people, and they'd do a good job in whatever environment they preferred to use. |
| 00:48.03 | ScytheBlade1 | Heh, agreed |
| 00:48.54 | ScytheBlade1 | But to that same end, is there a better language that they could have used which would have made it better off than it is now? If they had started from scratch with this? |
| 00:49.54 | Tene | 1) "better" |
| 00:50.23 | ScytheBlade1 | Better performance, scalability, ability to debug, fix, code, change.. etc |
| 00:50.35 | Tene | 2) No, not for the people who were and are building it. |
| 00:50.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Probably emphasis on performance and end user experience |
| 00:51.39 | elg | there are jobs which are better done in language X than language Y, but at the end of the day, the language in which the tool was written is the best language for that particular job |
| 00:51.53 | Tene | The people who built wikipedia are, as I understand it, skilled and experienced php developers. Therefore, trying to use a different language or environment would have resulted in them trying to use it like PHP and not taking advantage of the features of that other environment. |
| 00:51.58 | elg | aka - real software trumps vaporware |
| 00:52.59 | elg | would wikipedia be more robust, easier to maintain, etc. if they learned and used a different language? who knows. wikipedia probably wouldn't exist if they had tried to use a different language than what they were familiar with |
| 00:53.10 | elg | we'd have EncycloWiki by someone else instead |
| 00:53.35 | elg | and _it_ might have been written in Java. so count your blessings ;-) |
| 00:54.13 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 00:54.21 | elg | no I take that back, f it ha been written in java, it would be called EncyclopediaAsAJavaServlet |
| 00:55.59 | Tene | In my experience, the "right" way to do things in PHP 1) isn't the way the documentation teaches or 2) is pretty ridiculous or 3) both |
| 00:56.46 | Tene | Consider, for example, DB access. |
| 00:57.04 | Tene | It's *possible* to use bound parameters and DB abstraction in PHP. |
| 00:57.13 | ScytheBlade1 | It is, yeah.. |
| 00:57.23 | Tene | But everyone just does literal sql with a variety of mixed escaping methods. |
| 00:57.34 | Tene | Or leaves out the escaping methods or gets them wrong. |
| 00:57.38 | Tene | Leading to... |
| 00:57.59 | Tene | SQL Injection Exploits and application crashes when your last name is O'Malley |
| 00:58.33 | Tene | And the ridiculous nightmare that is magic_quotes and such |
| 00:59.09 | ScytheBlade1 | I'll give you that. The PHP devs don't make it easy. |
| 01:00.20 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 01:01.14 | Tene | Something that I personally find a bit silly is the contortions involved in getting your php app to do things with arbitrary paths, instead of the "make a separate file for every page" model. |
| 01:02.57 | Tene | I recognize that it's just "drop this standard mod_rewrite line in your httpd.conf", but it's still a bit silly to see library files starting with <?php and ending with ?> |
| 01:03.37 | Tene | I remember a specific instance where I spent a long time tracking down a weird bug, and it was caused by whitespace after the closing ?> in a library file |
| 01:05.02 | Tene | I think that's kind of silly. |
| 01:07.02 | Tene | No Namespaces, is another example. |
| 01:08.24 | Tene | I have some issues with the php object system, but they're relatively minor. |
| 01:08.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Namespaces would be nice, yeah |
| 01:08.50 | Tene | PHP's attitude towards security seems to be negligible. |
| 01:09.06 | ScytheBlade1 | The month of PHP bugs scared me to no end. |
| 01:10.09 | graphyx | really? |
| 01:10.09 | graphyx | that was just the internal issues |
| 01:10.21 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah. You see my point. |
| 01:10.27 | graphyx | I would think that the month of php patches that followed made you feel a lot better |
| 01:10.53 | graphyx | unfortunately, the coding problems are a lot harder to tackle. |
| 01:10.55 | Tene | Then there was that event where php's Director Of Security or whatever he called himself resigned out of frustration with the other php devs |
| 01:11.01 | ScytheBlade1 | Yup |
| 01:11.06 | ScytheBlade1 | He's the guy who ran the MOPB |
| 01:11.11 | graphyx | that is the guy who did the mopb |
| 01:11.14 | graphyx | esser |
| 01:11.21 | graphyx | is his last name. |
| 01:12.01 | Tene | Hearing "The PHP developers do not care about security." from the lead authority on php security kind of give you a rather specific opinion of the PHP team. |
| 01:14.29 | Tene | And I have trouble believing in the language design skills of the people who come up with autoglobals and magic_quotes and such |
| 01:15.12 | Tene | There's personal experience in unpleasant situations with different versions of PHP |
| 01:15.15 | brac | There's personal experience because my wife has initiated DCC chat, Accept? [Y,n] |
| 01:15.28 | Tene | breaking APIs in minor point releases |
| 01:15.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah |
| 01:15.43 | Tene | PHP4 code not running on PHP5 |
| 01:16.04 | Tene | API breaks for no good reason that don't provide any acceptable alternative. |
| 01:16.15 | Tene | well.. drop "for no good reason" |
| 01:16.20 | Tene | I don't know what their reasons were |
| 01:16.35 | Tene | Referring specifically to a change in passing values by reference. |
| 01:16.52 | ScytheBlade1 | That change was fine with me actually |
| 01:17.14 | ScytheBlade1 | imo, to fix the problems PHP has, you're going to wind up breaking all forms of backwards compat in many ways |
| 01:17.24 | Tene | There's the fact that currently when you create a new object and assign it to a value in the canonical way, it creates an object, makes a duplicate of it, and discards the original. |
| 01:17.31 | Tene | That seems messy and ridiculous to me. |
| 01:18.20 | Tene | There's the fact that people associated with php provide a commercial accelleration and caching product. |
| 01:18.30 | Tene | So you'll never see that built into PHP |
| 01:18.47 | Tene | PHP performance is pretty ridiculous to me. |
| 01:19.19 | ScytheBlade1 | There are numerous third party things that do the exact same thing |
| 01:19.20 | Tene | But, again, it comes from the "single script for every page that's compiled and rendered individually. |
| 01:19.26 | Tene | Yes, I know. |
| 01:20.18 | Tene | But that doesn't change the fact that the way php works leads developers to use the "make fifty different little php files scattered arbitrarily around in a directory structure" style of development. |
| 01:20.25 | ScytheBlade1 | Ha |
| 01:20.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, people are idiots. |
| 01:21.03 | Tene | Of course, I'm a mod_perl developer, so that might just be my bias towards the tools I use. |
| 01:21.33 | ScytheBlade1 | imo, PHP may be nonsensical in a lot of ways.. as you quite clearly outlined there |
| 01:21.47 | ScytheBlade1 | But, wikipedia as proof.. know how to do it, and it can turn out amazingly well |
| 01:22.01 | Tene | The most common pro-php argument I see is "It's easy to learn! U can maek pages real fast! Just like HTML but a bit more!" |
| 01:22.09 | Tene | And it's *fine* for that. Very good for that. |
| 01:22.55 | Tene | But that in no way supports "This is a serious development tool that is good for creating high-quality high-performance secure stable applications." |
| 01:23.34 | Tene | In every other field, professionals are expected to spend time learning to use their tools well. |
| 01:24.40 | ScytheBlade1 | Heh |
| 01:24.43 | ScytheBlade1 | It's easy to learn |
| 01:24.49 | ScytheBlade1 | Learning it correctly is another game |
| 01:24.56 | Tene | And it's just fine if people want to build whatever they want to play with, but PHP doesn't have good features for the applications I want to build, and its track record is ridiculously bad. |
| 01:25.40 | Tene | If five nines of the buildings designed with a particular CAD program collapsed when you had more than five people in them at a time, would that be a good CAD application to use for *your* building? |
| 01:25.55 | Tene | Yes, I know, bad comparison, you should probably ignore it. |
| 01:26.26 | Tene | Yes, and that makes the "easy to learn" argument completely invalid. |
| 01:27.21 | ScytheBlade1 | It *is* easy to learn, but whatever you learned with it being "easy" is made completly moot when you realize how backwards some of it is. |
| 01:27.34 | Tene | If it's so ridiculously hard to learn to use well, why is it advertised as a good platform for beginners to use? And why does nobody in the PHP community advertise that beginners shouldn't use it for serious projects? |
| 01:27.49 | ScytheBlade1 | It's a popularity contest. |
| 01:27.53 | ScytheBlade1 | They're also winning. ;) |
| 01:28.17 | Tene | Who's responsible in the end when Joe PHP builds a web app for Company X and they get 0wned because he believed the PHP hype? |
| 01:28.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Post that to php-dev and you'd be amazed at the response. |
| 01:28.44 | Tene | What would the response be? |
| 01:28.55 | ScytheBlade1 | You'd have about 30 of them in under a day |
| 01:29.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Both sides of the argument and then some |
| 01:29.31 | ScytheBlade1 | One would blame PHP, one would blame the dev, another would blame the company (?), and yet another would blame <random entity> |
| 01:29.44 | ScytheBlade1 | At one point in time, I read php-dev to enjoy the laughs and little else. |
| 01:30.11 | Tene | So what should my moral obligation be when I see someone saying that people should use PHP to build their Important Company App because it's easy to get started with? |
| 01:30.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Tell them otherwise. "Easy to get started with" should never be the reason. |
| 01:30.59 | Tene | And yet how common is that argument in the PHP community? |
| 01:31.32 | ScytheBlade1 | It's out there. Microscopic number, but it's out there. Growing slowly, though |
| 01:31.42 | Tene | If the php community acknowledges that php is very difficult to learn to use decently, why do they never mention that to the unsuspecting newbies? |
| 01:32.28 | ScytheBlade1 | There's the loophole in your logic - the "community" does not ack that |
| 01:32.46 | Tene | Why not? Because they've all been told otherwise by the people that came before? |
| 01:32.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Pretty much. |
| 01:33.03 | ScytheBlade1 | No point in being a liar, that's why I learned it. |
| 01:33.32 | ScytheBlade1 | I found out otherwise though, heh. |
| 01:33.32 | Tene | So, coming back to your wikipedia question... |
| 01:34.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Sure |
| 01:34.20 | Tene | If I personally built some hacked-together framework with an inconsistent and terrible API and its own custom language that ridiculous horrible hackish things, but I knew it completely and I wanted to build an application for my own personal use, it would be a very good choice for me. |
| 01:34.32 | Tene | if me and my friends all knew it, it would be just fine for use to use. |
| 01:35.07 | Tene | If I built a horrible deathtrap contraption for carving wood that I was able to use safely because I knew about it, it's probably just fine for me to use. |
| 01:35.29 | Tene | But I shouldn't recommend it to beginners over the industry-standard lathe and table saw. |
| 01:36.08 | graphyx | so you are saying don't be a lemming? |
| 01:36.48 | Tene | I'm saying that it's just fine for them to have used it. |
| 01:37.02 | Tene | But them using it successfully doesn't mean that it's a *good* platform at all. |
| 01:37.22 | Tene | I've seen Conway's Life written in brainfuck. |
| 01:37.29 | Tene | Webservers written in bash. |
| 01:38.41 | Tene | perl is written in a horrible tangled mess of C. |
| 01:38.48 | ScytheBlade1 | Okay, valid point. Especially noting PHP's origins. |
| 01:39.48 | ScytheBlade1 | I would, however, say that the good parts of PHP are very, very good. It's just the ever changing knowledge of what should be used vs. what shouldn't be used in PHP that sucks. |
| 01:40.06 | Tene | The best things I've seen in PHP are only mediocre. |
| 01:40.29 | Tene | unless you're talking about "Easy to embed a small amount of dynamic behavior in an otherwise static html page" |
| 01:41.14 | Tene | What I see is PHP slowly and haphazardly trying to reinvent perl and java, and doing it badly. |
| 01:41.32 | Tene | PHP originally was trying to be a stripped-down and simplified perl. |
| 01:41.34 | ScytheBlade1 | Just because the average consists of random directly embedded queries and partially escaped data, that doesn't mean that you have to do it in that fashion. |
| 01:41.45 | Tene | And yet these days it's *much* more disorganized and confused. |
| 01:42.03 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: so show me the PHP equivalent of DBIx::Class? |
| 01:42.34 | ScytheBlade1 | http://us3.php.net/pdo |
| 01:42.38 | sontek | The only thing I didn't like about php was there was no standardized naming convention within its class files |
| 01:43.21 | sontek | other than that its not a _terrible_ language, if you can get stuff done, then its done its job =) |
| 01:44.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Bloated namespace? Sure. Three internal functions that do the same thing? Yup. Security ignorant devs? Yeah, you could say that. |
| 01:44.27 | ScytheBlade1 | There are, however, movements going on that do things with PHP the right way |
| 01:44.41 | ScytheBlade1 | Problem is, as you said, PHP is "easy". Said movement, are "hard". |
| 01:46.05 | Tene | no, that's the equivalent of DBI. |
| 01:46.20 | ScytheBlade1 | <Tene> ScytheBlade1: so show me the PHP equivalent of DBIx::Class? |
| 01:46.25 | ScytheBlade1 | <Tene> no, that's the equivalent of DBI. |
| 01:46.26 | ScytheBlade1 | ??? |
| 01:46.29 | ScytheBlade1 | ;) |
| 01:46.42 | Tene | pdo in php is the equivalent of DBI in perl |
| 01:46.46 | Tene | not important, though |
| 01:46.50 | ScytheBlade1 | As compared to..? |
| 01:46.56 | Tene | as compared to DBIx::Class |
| 01:46.57 | ScytheBlade1 | My apoligies, my knowledge of perl is lacking |
| 01:47.10 | Tene | Yeah, which is why asking for specific comparisons doesn't work well. :) |
| 01:47.18 | ScytheBlade1 | Haha, cheater |
| 01:47.21 | Tene | So don't worry about it. :) |
| 01:47.36 | ScytheBlade1 | PDO does database connections for pretty much any database PHP can talk to, in a standarized way |
| 01:47.43 | ScytheBlade1 | With actual error handling and, gasp, features |
| 01:48.07 | ScytheBlade1 | If that's DBI, what's the difference between DBIx::Class? |
| 01:48.09 | Tene | So my question is... why try to build PHP into this much bigger thing, when the original goals were the exact opposite of what it's becoming now? |
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| 01:48.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Heh. You'll love this. |
| 01:48.50 | Tene | PHP was good at tiny things, originally. |
| 01:49.23 | Tene | ScytheBlade1: DBI is the default and standard way of doing things in perl. :) |
| 01:49.39 | ScytheBlade1 | As compared to DBIx::Class, how? |
| 01:49.43 | ScytheBlade1 | What's the difference? |
| 01:49.47 | Tene | The lowest level of db access in perl == best db access in php. Sounds about right. ;) |
| 01:50.00 | Tene | DBIx::Class is a very nice object-based interface. |
| 01:50.36 | Tene | it does magic with relationships and such too |
| 01:50.38 | ScytheBlade1 | PDO has both classes and good ol' public namespace functions. |
| 01:50.52 | Tene | Not that PHP programmers ever use relationships in their databases... *scoff* |
| 01:51.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Hey, I take offense to that! ;) |
| 01:51.15 | Tene | i.e. It builds up smart objects instead of just hashes for rows |
| 01:51.49 | Tene | $artist->add_to_cds("Here's a CD title!"); |
| 01:52.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh, as in it builds them for you? |
| 01:52.42 | Tene | Reads the DB schema to intelligently build the relationships and accessors, uses Lingua::Inflect to generate the proper plurals and singular names... |
| 01:52.55 | sontek | yeah but thats easy to write =) |
| 01:52.55 | levi_home | Heh, cool, my influence has trickled back to my father in law. He now checkes snopes.com before forwarding stuff to my wife. :) |
| 01:53.23 | Tene | You can also manually add stuff in, to add magic. |
| 01:53.56 | ScytheBlade1 | To give you an idea as to just how much of a freak I am, I don't have any form of e-mail spam filter, simply because I doubt it can achieve the accuracy rate I can ;) |
| 01:54.13 | ScytheBlade1 | To that same end, I wouldn't trust a language to do all of that work for me. |
| 01:54.18 | Tene | I don't either. ;) |
| 01:54.31 | Tene | I do it all by hand, explicitly, and it's exactly the same interface. |
| 01:54.38 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm not saying that it *can't*, I'm just saying I wouldn't touch it. |
| 01:55.01 | Tene | I never use the magic loading, but my co-worker does. |
| 01:55.28 | ScytheBlade1 | See, I'm one of those creepy PHP developers who uses foreign key restraints in MySQL and make heavy use of the mysqli part of PHP |
| 01:56.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Though, the MOPB scared me to no end. |
| 01:56.49 | ScytheBlade1 | That was not motivating to read through. |
| 01:57.20 | Tene | One thing that irritates me about PHP is that it doesn't have real arrays, just hashes/dictionaries |
| 01:57.29 | Tene | /whatever you want to call them |
| 01:57.56 | Tene | Because "Sometiems Order Matters" |
| 01:58.04 | Tene | *sometimes |
| 01:58.16 | ScytheBlade1 | It is somewhat nice to be able to just write out $blah["a"]['b'][0] = $a[$b], though |
| 01:58.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Without any previous declarations (but I actually do previous declarations, so eh) |
| 01:59.38 | ScytheBlade1 | And it's not like they don't have a clearly defined order, either. Nothing is stopping you from looping through that array, in order |
| 01:59.40 | levi_home | Lua is like that, too. |
| 01:59.48 | levi_home | No array data type, just tables. |
| 01:59.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, it is |
| 02:00.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Duh, I'm sitting here coding lua and forgetting about that comparison :P |
| 02:01.23 | Tene | It's not that big of a deal, it just feels weird to me. |
| 02:01.24 | Tene | If it was for something small, like what PHP was originally intended for... |
| 02:01.24 | Tene | That seems fine to my preferences. |
| 02:01.24 | levi_home | Tene: How do you distinguish, api-wise, an integer-indexed table from an array? |
| 02:03.10 | Tene | levi_home: I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're askign. Ambiguity of terms. |
| 02:03.16 | Tene | between integer-based named-lookup versus an ordered list? |
| 02:03.32 | levi_home | Tene: An abstract data type is distinguished by its API. If the two APIs are the same, then they are the same thing, regardless of implementation details. |
| 02:05.21 | Tene | I don't see them as being necessarily the same. I rarely access individual elements of a list by index. |
| 02:06.23 | Tene | A common idiom I've seen in PHP is to get the length of the array and then iteratively access array[0] to array[n-1] |
| 02:06.59 | Tene | But as I understand it, indexes don't have to be sequential, don't have to be all integers, etc. |
| 02:07.16 | Tene | you could skip from element "10" to element "50" |
| 02:07.27 | Tene | or from element "10" to element "elephant" |
| 02:08.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Heh. 10 to elephant. |
| 02:09.16 | levi_home | Tene: If you do that, you're no longer using it as an array, at which point you should start thinking of it as a hashtable. |
| 02:09.18 | graphyx | my wife and I have a dumb/cute saying, "I love you tons, like elephants." |
| 02:09.43 | graphyx | or you could say i like you bunches, like grapes. |
| 02:10.50 | Tene | levi_home: exactly, it seems awkward to me to access a list like you would a hashtable |
| 02:11.21 | Tene | And it seems awkward to me to try to fit them into the same datatype |
| 02:11.45 | Tene | There's a difference between "I have ten items" and "I have an item named sue and an item named graphyx and an item named chair" |
| 02:11.48 | levi_home | Tene: Accessing a list like a hashtable would be awkward. Accessing an array like a hashtable would not. |
| 02:13.23 | Tene | levi_home: define your use of "array" in your most-recent statement here. |
| 02:14.36 | levi_home | An array is an abstract data type that stores n values in a compound data structure indexed by n contiguous integers. |
| 02:15.59 | Tene | Is a hashtable that only contains items at contiguous integer indexes an array? |
| 02:16.16 | levi_home | By my definition, yes. |
| 02:17.02 | Tene | Hmm. |
| 02:18.43 | levi_home | If we took the 'abstract' part out, then differences would be revealed. |
| 02:19.04 | elg | ~deabstract levi_home |
| 02:19.50 | levi_home | But those are just implementation details, not differences in the behavior of the data type. |
| 02:20.06 | levi_home | ~abstract elg |
| 02:25.29 | elg | i have A) a logitech gamepad. B) a curious 2-year-old just getting the motor skills to manipulate the gamepad |
| 02:25.37 | Tene | but you can ask a php array to store a value at a non-contiguous or non-integer intex. |
| 02:26.11 | elg | I want C) something interesting to him that he can use with the gamepad. ie that he can enjoy doing and will reinforce that pushing buttons makes things happen |
| 02:26.33 | levi_home | Tene: You can ask a C array to store a value at a non-allocated memory block. Violations of convention are errors in your code. |
| 02:26.33 | elg | anoyone have any ideas? tensai? |
| 02:26.47 | Tene | Hmm. |
| 02:27.17 | levi_home | Tene: Unless you wish to be using a different kind of abstract data type. |
| 02:28.00 | Tene | There's no way to tell the difference in PHP other than explicitly checking every index. |
| 02:28.43 | levi_home | If you want a programming language to check your type constraints, you don't want php. |
| 02:28.51 | levi_home | Otherwise, just write correct code. |
| 02:29.06 | levi_home | What a PHP 'array' is depends on how you use it. |
| 02:29.13 | rsimpkins | elg: Pushing buttons makes things happen? Comes natrual to my kids. They push my buttons all day long. :) |
| 02:29.29 | levi_home | If you intend it to be an array and use it in another manner, you have a bug. |
| 02:29.49 | Tene | Then I suppose my complaint is disliking code that appears incorrect to me without a convenient alternative. |
| 02:30.13 | elg | he's been playing super mario bros |
| 02:30.16 | elg | "playing" |
| 02:30.27 | elg | but so many buttons do nothing it's confusing him |
| 02:30.37 | elg | if all the buttons did something, but something distinct |
| 02:30.41 | elg | he'd figure it out |
| 02:31.07 | Tene | elg: a game with no particular player state? |
| 02:31.17 | rsimpkins | elg: I got the MS train simulator for my kids. My youngest can at least make the horn blow, and turn off the bell. |
| 02:31.37 | levi_home | Tene: What appears incorrect about the code in question? |
| 02:31.46 | elg | Tene: right, although visible state wouldn't be bad |
| 02:32.22 | elg | like moving a turtle around on the screen with the arrow buttons and it does different things |
| 02:32.29 | elg | with each other button |
| 02:32.33 | Tene | levi_home: presuming that a hashtable only has indexes from 0 to $numelements-1 without checking |
| 02:33.05 | levi_home | Tene: Welcome to dynamic typing! |
| 02:34.30 | Tene | Then perhaps I'm just uncomfortable with dynamic typing without the ability to restrict or check the type? |
| 02:35.06 | levi_home | You can, though; it's just a somewhat more expensive operation than the usual type check. |
| 02:35.24 | elg | are you uncomfortable with being able to eat chinese food without being chinese? or even reading the menu? |
| 02:35.24 | Tene | Or perhaps I'm simply particularly accustomed to an explicit array or list type. |
| 02:35.34 | levi_home | I think that's probably the root of it. |
| 02:35.39 | elg | s/reading/being able to read/ |
| 02:37.31 | Tene | levi_home: Is that particularly odd, or is it just the result of being too accustomed to one specific environment? |
| 02:37.57 | Tene | Or, perhaps, which is unusual? Me for thinking an array type is important or PHP for not having one? |
| 02:39.19 | elg | Tene: go back to first principles, perhaps? |
| 02:39.31 | elg | in the beginning was the switches. then there was assembly |
| 02:39.34 | elg | was there an array type? |
| 02:39.54 | Tene | linearly indexed memory, perhaps. |
| 02:40.06 | elg | the C family has always had one, but other parallel language branches didn't necessarily |
| 02:40.59 | elg | an array is a special case of a hash |
| 02:41.25 | elg | well, an associative map if you want to get technical |
| 02:41.45 | elg | if a language has associative maps you can't say it doesn't have arrays |
| 02:42.42 | elg | you can say it doesn't have arrays implemented as contiguous data regions indexed by pointer arithmetic, like C does |
| 02:42.54 | levi_home | Yes, 'hash' is a name that depends on implementation details. |
| 02:42.58 | elg | which can be good or bad depending on what you're trying to do - for lowlevel driver stuff that's very handy |
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| 02:43.42 | elg | but for a highlevel language like PHP that even in the author's dreams (ok, maybe in his wildest dreams) was never intended for low-level programming |
| 02:43.55 | elg | i don't think it's a drawback |
| 02:43.59 | elg | not that php doesn't have drawbacks |
| 02:44.29 | levi_home | If something is in PHP and also in Lua, you can probably assume it's a reasonable thing. |
| 02:44.43 | elg | imho dynamic typing and lack of c-type arrays aren't drawbacks |
| 02:44.45 | levi_home | Lua is a pretty reasonable language. :) |
| 02:45.05 | elg | although I do like to have an ADT for arrays that is distinct from that of hashes |
| 02:45.11 | elg | I like ruby's Array and Hash classes pretty well |
| 02:45.23 | Tene | In PHP's case, I find "iterate over a number of elements" to be a common task, and I feel that using associative maps for that purpose is, perhaps, awkward or "inelegant"? |
| 02:45.39 | elg | doesn't have to be |
| 02:45.43 | levi_home | elg: Right. Not drawbacks in general, but design details that may make them suitable/unsuitable for particular tasks. |
| 02:45.51 | elg | in ruby you can iterate over a hash easily |
| 02:46.08 | elg | but yes, iterating over an array in ruby is even easier than a hash |
| 02:46.16 | elg | levi_home: ya |
| 02:46.19 | levi_home | Lua has a little function to help you iterate over an array. |
| 02:46.41 | elg | Tene: but C doesn't give you any help in iterating over an array |
| 02:47.05 | elg | where's the help in for (i=0; i<n; i++) printf("%d",ary[i]); |
| 02:47.23 | elg | as long as you have a for statement you have the same iterating power of C |
| 02:47.49 | goozbach | we're still talking about programming languages |
| 02:47.50 | goozbach | ? |
| 02:47.52 | goozbach | wow |
| 02:47.57 | elg | -lart goozbach |
| 02:48.07 | Tene | goozbach: *WE* are. You aren't. |
| 02:48.10 | elg | well I tried to turn the topic to kids software but everyone's too mature |
| 02:48.28 | levi_home | goozbach: Programming languages are fun to talk about. |
| 02:48.32 | goozbach | well I'm going to bed |
| 02:48.36 | Tene | elg: I think that such a product would have great value. |
| 02:48.38 | levi_home | elg: Sorry, I didn't have any ideas for you. |
| 02:48.40 | elg | don't leave us goozbach ! |
| 02:48.46 | goozbach | elg: I'm gone! |
| 02:48.49 | goozbach | laters |
| 02:48.53 | Tene | I wish I had some suggestions. |
| 02:48.56 | elg | I'm teasing. |
| 02:48.57 | goozbach | stupid fedora updates |
| 02:49.04 | goozbach | 503 updates |
| 02:49.10 | Tene | elg: perhaps a simplified nethack? ;) |
| 02:50.14 | Tene | elg: I seem to remember fedora having a 'Children's Games' or 'Children's Software' section in the package manager, but I'm unsure. |
| 02:50.26 | elg | I might play with something simple in SDL, moving a train or turtle or something around |
| 02:50.38 | elg | then add sounds and nifty animations to the other buttons as I get a chance |
| 02:50.43 | Tene | elg: I'd be really curious to see what you come up with. |
| 02:51.11 | elg | if I come up with anything it'll be proof that the ruby SDL bindings were easy to understand :) |
| 02:56.20 | Tene | elg: I've used a playstation gamepad to control mpd before. |
| 02:56.23 | Tene | does that count? |
| 03:05.47 | tensai | elg: I'm sure you could do something with sdl. all my kiddie apps were keyboard based. |
| 03:06.25 | elg | is sdl hard to pick up? |
| 03:06.36 | tensai | I didn't think so |
| 03:06.41 | tensai | you still have my programs? |
| 03:06.53 | elg | yeah, somewhere |
| 03:06.57 | elg | though I only remember the first |
| 03:07.04 | tensai | they'd make a good basis |
| 03:10.24 | tensai | www.zmonkey.org/~tensai/colorclick.tgz and www.zmonkey.org/~tensai/slideshow.tgz |
| 03:13.31 | elg | tanks |
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| 03:20.50 | elg | hey look, there's an erlang sdl/opengl lib |
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| 03:41.06 | bb47 | how do I get X apps to display after I chroot? |
| 03:41.53 | Tene | bb47: set your DISPLAY environment variable correctly |
| 03:42.21 | bb47 | Tene: indeed. and what would be the proper value for DISPLAY? |
| 03:42.37 | Tene | bb47: I have no idea what your setup is. you tell me. |
| 03:43.15 | bb47 | well, :0.0 doesn't work. That works after su'ing to root, but not after the chroot. |
| 03:43.25 | bb47 | localhost:0 doesn't work |
| 03:43.26 | Tene | bb47: most likely, export DISPLAY=:0 and then run 'xhost +localhost' in a terminal running in X |
| 03:43.33 | bb47 | <ip>:0 doesn't work |
| 03:43.41 | Tene | bb47: xhost |
| 03:43.59 | bb47 | all this after I've tried both 'xhost local:', and even 'xhost +' |
| 03:44.30 | Tene | bb47: if you want more help than that, you need to tell us what *is* happening, not what *isn't* |
| 03:45.06 | bb47 | X apps, such as xeyes, just hang. no error, no display |
| 03:46.54 | bb47 | as the non-root user, who is logged in to the desktop, I ran 'xhost +' |
| 03:47.19 | bb47 | become root through 'su -'. X apps work when launched by root. |
| 03:48.04 | bb47 | next, I chroot to a system on another partition, and I can't launch X apps. I've tried all the DISPLAYs listed above. |
| 03:53.52 | bb47 | Tene: is that enough detail about what *is* happening? |
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| 03:56.18 | Tene | bb47: likely for someone else. I apparently don't know enough about chroot to answer, but someone else might. |
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| 04:00.11 | nick125_lappy | Is it considered rude to call someone jabba the hutt? |
| 04:02.55 | Supaplex | bb47: X uses sockets in /tmp for that. |
| 04:03.12 | Tene | nick125_lappy: most people would consider it so, yes. |
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| 04:13.43 | bb47 | Supaplex: even if I set DISPLAY to the IP addr? |
| 04:14.23 | bb47 | Supaplex: I thought those were only used for local connections. |
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| 04:19.10 | Supaplex | bb47: if you set it to the local ip address, xauth has to allow it. consider ssh -X (it's more secure than xauth) |
| 04:21.36 | bb47 | Supaplex: heh. yep. I just resorted to that. |
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| 05:09.17 | bb47 | ah. X by default is not configured to listen for tcp connections. |
| 06:06.07 | tensai | firefly++ |
| 06:09.37 | herlo | tensai: +1 from me too... |
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| 14:02.09 | goozbach | cool sjansen decided to grace us with his presence |
| 14:02.15 | goozbach | morning folkses |
| 14:02.29 | goozbach | just so you know, a broken rib is NOT fun |
| 14:05.42 | jsmith | sjansen: So, after our conversation yesterday, I tried an experiment this morning. |
| 14:06.07 | redbeard1 | goozbach: you break a rib? |
| 14:06.12 | brac | you break it? |
| 14:06.47 | jsmith | sjansen: I listened to country music for an hour. And afterward, I asked myself these important questions: "Did it make me a better person?" "Did it make me feel better?" "Did I learn something new?" |
| 14:08.57 | jsmith | sjansen: The only thing that I came up with for number three was that if you go way down yonder by the caution light and stop at the country store and ask directions, they'll tell you to take a left to get to the interstate. And if you're an attractive female they'll tell you to turn right and go straight back to the hillbilly that gave you directions to the store |
| 14:09.14 | jsmith | sjansen: Which would never happen in real life... |
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| 14:12.26 | graphyx | jsmith: what about your dog? |
| 14:12.46 | graphyx | will it die by the statistics presented by the music? |
| 14:13.02 | jsmith | graphyx: In real life? The attractive female would have have run over the dog on her way to the interstate |
| 14:13.04 | goozbach | redbeard1: yep, crashed on my mountain bike last week and landed on the handlebars |
| 14:13.39 | graphyx | that doesn't sound like fun |
| 14:13.48 | graphyx | but landing on the bar could have been worse. |
| 14:13.52 | goozbach | graphyx: hence my statement abovve |
| 14:13.59 | goozbach | s/vv/v |
| 14:14.06 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:14.08 | goozbach | bah |
| 14:14.12 | goozbach | stupid pineapple |
| 14:14.34 | redbeard1 | pineapple! |
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| 14:28.42 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 14:30.43 | elg | Great. I owe tax. I should be happy - they didn't make money off my interest and all that, but I'm mostly sda |
| 14:35.20 | graphyx | Elg I would rather they made money off of my money than having to pay them more. But not to the point of actually decreasing my exemptions. |
| 14:41.21 | elg | best case scenario would be almost $0 difference, or at least knowing ahead of time exactly how much you'll have to pay |
| 14:41.50 | elg | but when you've only paid $16 in 2006 it's hard to begrudge them a few more $$ |
| 14:58.04 | jsmith | elg: Usually I end up with a refund... this year, for some reason, it looks like I owe quite a bit |
| 15:02.29 | findlay | ~pineapple |
| 15:02.34 | ibot | ACTION dances around with a pineapple on her head, singing ~o pineapple pineapple pineapple ~o |
| 15:02.42 | findlay | yay |
| 15:09.15 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.utahbroadband.com) |
| 15:09.52 | levi | Morning. |
| 15:10.06 | findlay | Good Morning Dr. Levi. |
| 15:10.35 | levi | I'm Dr. Worm. |
| 15:10.48 | findlay | Good Morning Dr. Worm. |
| 15:11.03 | levi | I'm not a real doctor, but I am a real worm. |
| 15:12.17 | findlay | ~rot13 Worm. |
| 15:12.17 | ibot | Jbez. |
| 15:12.23 | findlay | I knew it! |
| 15:12.37 | findlay | you're the Evil Dr. Jbez! |
| 15:12.52 | herlo | ~rot13 findlay |
| 15:12.52 | ibot | svaqynl |
| 15:12.55 | levi | No, Jbez is my nemesis. |
| 15:12.58 | herlo | perfect! |
| 15:13.14 | findlay | ah |
| 15:16.30 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 15:18.07 | levi | Anyhow, I have returned to my office from the land of presentation training, where I had been banished for two days to suffer torment unspeakable. |
| 15:19.10 | findlay | have the Valar sent you back to help us vanquish the Evil Dr. Jbez? |
| 15:19.35 | levi | No, I just finished the training. |
| 15:20.19 | redbeard1 | levi: it sounds as if you enjoyed it immensely. |
| 15:20.21 | redbeard1 | or something. |
| 15:21.06 | levi | redbeard1: Well, it was 8am-5pm for two days, and including being videotaped giving a minimally-prepared presentation in front of a group about 9 times. |
| 15:21.15 | levi | s/including/included/ |
| 15:22.29 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 15:22.29 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:25.03 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@dsl092-197-124.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 15:37.55 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@000-187-041.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 15:42.52 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@208-47-173-164.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 15:44.49 | elg | -lart lukfugl |
| 15:44.59 | lukfugl | -lart elg |
| 15:50.15 | lukfugl | elg: can't remember -- you're straight into phd, right (no masters in between)? |
| 15:50.29 | elg | righto |
| 15:50.31 | lukfugl | how long you got left? |
| 15:51.13 | elg | depending on various factors including how hard I work, how many red tape obstacles, etc. - probably 1.5-2 years |
| 15:51.31 | lukfugl | got any ideas for your dissertation yet? |
| 15:51.39 | elg | if all the stars lined up and me too, maybe 1 year |
| 15:52.24 | elg | i'm in the lit. survey phase right now. I'm supposed to be fairly general, write a survey paper about what's going on and then choose a topic and write a prospecturs |
| 15:52.40 | elg | the survey paper is called "comprehensive examination", kind of a misnomer |
| 15:53.02 | elg | other programs' comps are big scary things. mine just involves reading a lot of papers and writing a long survey |
| 15:53.22 | elg | otoh, other programs' quals are "hi, my name is professor Foo. You seem cool. Welcome to the program" |
| 15:53.50 | *** join/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 15:53.56 | elg | then there's harleypig |
| 15:54.11 | harleypig | Yeah, that guy is weird. |
| 15:54.13 | harleypig | Wait ... |
| 15:54.26 | elg | lukfugl: you getting ready to go back soon? |
| 15:54.28 | lukfugl | I'll be re-applying to MS-CS at BYU sometime here in the near future, starting classes in January |
| 15:54.43 | lukfugl | (near future = as soon as I get off my butt and do it) |
| 15:54.43 | elg | part time or full? |
| 15:54.51 | harleypig | Anyone remember that thong herlo put up on cafepress? |
| 15:55.02 | elg | sjansen remembers |
| 15:55.09 | harleypig | heh |
| 15:55.17 | lukfugl | full-time = 6 credit hours per semester, right? |
| 15:55.18 | elg | it was etched into his retina |
| 15:55.27 | harleypig | I have a friend whose husband hates me. She says she's gonna buy it to yank his chain. |
| 15:55.50 | elg | lukfugl: 9 here, but may be different at BYU |
| 15:55.56 | harleypig | She's gonna surprise him wiht it one night. |
| 15:56.10 | elg | but more importantly, are you going to be working still |
| 15:56.47 | sjansen | jsmith: What did I tell you about listening to the radio? |
| 15:56.49 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=clints@166-70-63-209.ip.xmission.com) |
| 15:56.50 | lukfugl | yeah, I'll be working. I'm thinking 5-6 credit hours per semester, including over spring/summer. That should keep it reasonable and still be done in 2-2.5 years |
| 15:57.37 | sjansen | jsmith: Try to borrow a Rascal Flats CD. _That's_ Real Country(tm). |
| 15:57.46 | findlay | radio music is consistently out of tune |
| 15:57.55 | sjansen | Most of Keith Urban is good. |
| 15:58.06 | findlay | although Rascal Flats has fairly good musicianship |
| 15:58.15 | herlo | well, not like that... |
| 15:58.30 | findlay | intonation, rhythm, ensamble, etc. |
| 15:58.32 | sjansen | The stuff by the Dixie Chix they didn't play on the radio was very country. Of course the radio only played Dixie Chix pop. |
| 15:58.36 | jsmith | herlo: I think I'd rather Garth all over myself... |
| 15:58.38 | herlo | His music is amazing. It tells a great story.... |
| 15:59.00 | herlo | jsmith: yup |
| 15:59.09 | sjansen | Garth has some great songs. Unfortunately, success made him too commercial. He started singing to sell instead singing to expression emotion. |
| 15:59.20 | herlo | sjansen: I disagree... |
| 15:59.40 | sjansen | Tobie Keith is even worse. He had some great songs, but he's become more commercial than Garth. |
| 15:59.58 | herlo | in fact, he did his Chris Gaines album because he thought it would be a good experiment. The fame actually helped him try stuff that didn't work... |
| 16:00.43 | herlo | I'd say things moved to a more moderate rock/country mix for Garth, but I think that was inevitable anyway. he just made it possible for many others... |
| 16:00.44 | sjansen | herlo: No Country star should ever smash a guitar during a concert. Period. End of reputation. |
| 16:00.59 | herlo | sjansen: I've never seen him do that...when, where? |
| 16:01.17 | sjansen | Back in the late 90's during a televised concert. |
| 16:01.20 | herlo | He liked to run around on stage... |
| 16:01.29 | sjansen | And fly on cables. |
| 16:01.31 | herlo | sjansen: hmm, I guess I'll have to go find that... |
| 16:01.35 | herlo | sjansen: I liked that... |
| 16:01.40 | herlo | the flying cables that is |
| 16:02.06 | sjansen | Hey! Who put their Rock in my Country? |
| 16:03.12 | herlo | sjansen: it was inevitable |
| 16:03.37 | sjansen | As was the resurgence of blue grassy Country. |
| 16:04.06 | elg | bluegrass ain't half bad |
| 16:04.15 | elg | old western music is ok too |
| 16:04.30 | goozbach | meh, just listen to Banda |
| 16:04.33 | elg | harleypig: do report back if she tells you how it went |
| 16:04.50 | harleypig | elg: :] I sure will. I expect it to be hilarious. |
| 16:06.55 | sjansen | goozbach: Banda Eva? |
| 16:08.09 | lukfugl | ick |
| 16:08.37 | lukfugl | Banda is a more horrible abomination than country |
| 16:09.02 | lukfugl | bluegrass is good |
| 16:12.25 | elg | is that la musica norteña you love so much? |
| 16:12.50 | mrpull | how many #utah'ers have last.fm profiles? |
| 16:13.13 | elg | i don't think you can know the answer to that question |
| 16:13.25 | elg | but you might get a close idea statistically speaking |
| 16:13.42 | mrpull | OK. show of hands? |
| 16:13.48 | mrpull | aye |
| 16:13.54 | lukfugl | elg: banda and nortena (wah, how do I type the enye?) aren't quite the same, but related in horribleness |
| 16:13.56 | elg | i mean, 65 nicks and what 10 of us are active? |
| 16:14.27 | elg | it's easy to get really nifty characters in os x. probably not too hard in linux either if you get the right keyboard settings |
| 16:14.41 | elg | alt-n is the dead key for ˜ |
| 16:14.54 | elg | alt-2 is â„¢ |
| 16:15.09 | elg | alt-w is ∑, etc. |
| 16:15.20 | lukfugl | I want them |
| 16:15.24 | mrpull | it makes me nuts that Excel still has MDI / SDI inconsistencies |
| 16:15.25 | mrpull | grrr |
| 16:15.41 | elg | lukfugl: they would likely be different in linux, but probably non less useful |
| 16:15.49 | elg | though I doubt â„¢ would be so readily available :) |
| 16:32.49 | levi_home | Weird, I see your TM symbol as (TM) on this terminal, but as the real TM symbol in xchat. I'm not sure whether it's screen or irssi or something else doing the translation. |
| 16:33.40 | elg | really? that's pretty cool |
| 16:34.02 | levi | It didn't do anything for sigma, though. Just put a ? |
| 16:35.56 | ^Migs^ | well, I have a last.fm profile but I never use it |
| 16:35.58 | ^Migs^ | pandora > last.fm |
| 16:36.29 | levi | I think I have a last.fm profile, but it probably hasn't received any audioscrobbler updates in a long time. |
| 16:38.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Is the problem of typesetting computationally intensive? |
| 16:39.19 | Lone_Wanderer | Or... something? I heard that Knuth wrote his own typesetting software, and it seems like that wouldn't be worth mentioning if it weren't impressive in some way. |
| 16:40.35 | levi | I don't think it's considered computationally expensive these days, it's just that it's not often done right. |
| 16:41.02 | Lone_Wanderer | How can you do it wrong? |
| 16:41.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Don't you just put letters all in a row? |
| 16:41.27 | lukfugl | hah, far from it :) |
| 16:41.29 | levi | Um, it's a little more complicated than that. |
| 16:41.57 | Lone_Wanderer | Expound? |
| 16:42.00 | levi | But most people seem to think that's about all it is, which is why computer-generated text often sucks. |
| 16:42.17 | levi | I don't feel like expounding. There's plenty of information about TeX and typesetting in general online. |
| 16:43.11 | Lone_Wanderer | hmm. okay. |
| 16:43.20 | Lone_Wanderer | I've read about TeX. It confused me. |
| 16:43.36 | Lone_Wanderer | Possibly because I'm not aware of the problem it's meant to solve. |
| 16:44.09 | levi | It's meant to make text look good. |
| 16:44.23 | jsmith | And it can be computationally expensive to render the text |
| 16:44.42 | levi | Most computer-generated text does not look good compared to traditionally typeset text. |
| 16:45.15 | jsmith | Hence the reason TeX and DocBook, etc. were invented |
| 16:45.27 | Lone_Wanderer | I must be spoiled because I've never looked at CG text and thought "Man that looks awful." |
| 16:45.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Spoiled or ignorant of the finer points of typesetting. |
| 16:46.16 | jsmith | Well, there are a lot of finer points |
| 16:46.37 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: you've never looked at someone's book report written in word and said "man, that looks awful"? |
| 16:46.44 | Lone_Wanderer | No. |
| 16:46.45 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Print a paper from TeX, and print a paper from Word. Examine closely. If you can't tell a difference in quality, I can't help you. |
| 16:46.46 | jsmith | Thinks like kerning and hyphenation and orphan/widow control... right-hand and left-hand pages.... the list goes on and on |
| 16:47.10 | jsmith | Yeah, and it only gets worse if you try to write a *book* |
| 16:47.14 | elg | there are few things on earth more ugly than a double-spaced document in times roman written in a standard word processor emerging from the printer |
| 16:47.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Can I get a copy of TeX for free? |
| 16:47.35 | jsmith | People will forgive an ugly paper, but they won't buy an ugly book |
| 16:47.40 | jsmith | Sure! |
| 16:47.43 | jsmith | It's already on your linux box |
| 16:47.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Cool. |
| 16:47.43 | tensai | jsmith: I pity any fool who tries to write a book. kerning will be the least of said person's issues. |
| 16:47.49 | elg | one of those would be the same thing with courier instead of times roman :) |
| 16:47.58 | jsmith | tensai: Uh, yeah... that's why I have O'Reilly |
| 16:48.08 | elg | jsmith: I don't forgive ugly papers very easily |
| 16:48.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Is TeX a text editor, or... something else? Like, could I write a paper in TeX? |
| 16:48.30 | elg | when I pick up a paper and it's ugly, it has to work extra hard to gain that ground back |
| 16:48.45 | Lone_Wanderer | 'cause if I can, I'm going to write all my papers in it when I go back to school :p |
| 16:48.52 | elg | tex is a markup language |
| 16:49.04 | lukfugl | TeX is not wysiwyg, if that's what you're asking |
| 16:49.08 | Lone_Wanderer | Right. |
| 16:49.21 | elg | look at lyx, it's a good start. kind of ugly, ironically |
| 16:49.25 | jsmith | Lone_Wanderer: You should also check out DocBook, if for no other reason than to be familiar with it |
| 16:49.31 | Lone_Wanderer | So I'd have to write my paper with an editor, then insert the TeX markup manually, then print it with a TeX-aware printer? |
| 16:49.33 | lukfugl | TeXmacs and LyX are common wysiwygs for TeX (or usually LaTeX, rather) |
| 16:49.34 | jsmith | elg: Yeah... lyx is uglier than TeX |
| 16:49.54 | elg | if you do write "tex" directly, you'll want to do latex or contex, not straight tex |
| 16:49.55 | jsmith | Lone_Wanderer: Write your paper in TeX or DocBook markup, then render to HTML or PDF or RTF |
| 16:49.56 | lukfugl | I wasn't happy with LyX myself :) |
| 16:49.56 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: LaTeX generally outputs to ps or pdf. |
| 16:50.10 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 16:50.15 | elg | i don't use lyx for the same reason I don't use html generating software |
| 16:50.35 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: if you're going to write scientific papers, you're going to likely need to use tex in some form or another at some point |
| 16:51.13 | elg | but for school English papers it's usually more trouble than it's worth because the teachers are control freaks who don't care if it looks good but only that you have the right margins and spacings, etc. |
| 16:51.33 | elg | for CS and math homework it's excellent though |
| 16:51.47 | levi | Yeah, having a sane way to write math equations is wonderful. |
| 16:51.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, I plan to major in something non-liberal-artsy, so there you go. |
| 16:52.01 | levi | Especially since they come out looking so nice. |
| 16:52.10 | Lone_Wanderer | I was going to get a BA but then my friend pointed out that in liberal arts, one opinion is pretty much as good as the next, and no-one can ever really prove that they're right. |
| 16:52.39 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: take any math/CS/engineering paper and chances are it was generated with TeX |
| 16:52.54 | Lone_Wanderer | And conceding a point to some long-haired greenpeace hippy even once grates against my soul. I can't imagine doing it for two or three years straight. |
| 16:52.55 | elg | even if it doesn't have the standard TeX look and feel |
| 16:54.31 | tensai | what's wrong with hippies? they have as much right to their opinion as people without hips. |
| 16:56.48 | levi | I dunno, I sometimes wish I'd majored in literature or philosophy or something. |
| 16:58.35 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm thinking of majoring in philosophy. |
| 16:58.37 | levi | I also sometimes wish I'd majored in math. |
| 16:58.43 | Lone_Wanderer | With a minor in math ;) |
| 16:58.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Because they make you take logic classes in philosophy. |
| 16:59.23 | levi | This is true, but I'm just as interested in the history of philosophy. |
| 17:00.38 | ^Migs^ | are you going to go into law school afterward? |
| 17:00.38 | ^Migs^ | if not, you're throwing your life away with that major |
| 17:00.39 | ^Migs^ | I guess you could become a philosophy professor |
| 17:00.59 | elg | ~discard ^Migs^ life |
| 17:01.08 | Lone_Wanderer | actually, no, I was thinking of going on to get a PhD in computer science. |
| 17:01.29 | ^Migs^ | so you'll be throwing your life away twice |
| 17:01.34 | levi | ^Migs^: I've got a good job, and no degree at all. I'm sure I would have done just as well with a philosophy degree. |
| 17:01.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Why? |
| 17:01.44 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd like to teach college-level computer science. |
| 17:02.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Getting a PhD in CS seems like a good way to do that. |
| 17:02.15 | ^Migs^ | it's harder to get a decent job with a PhD than with a masters. Mainly because companies DON'T want employees with PhDs coming up with ideas, upsetting the balance, questioning authority... |
| 17:02.21 | ^Migs^ | well, if you're teaching, that's perfect then |
| 17:02.49 | levi | ^Migs^: You're assuming that someone with a Ph.D. would actually want a job at a company like that. |
| 17:03.01 | ^Migs^ | no, I wasn't assuming. |
| 17:03.16 | ^Migs^ | There was nothing assuming or false about my statement. It was a generalization, and I thought that was clear. |
| 17:03.32 | levi | ^Migs^: Assuming something doesn't make it false. |
| 17:03.42 | ^Migs^ | no it doesn't. When did I suggest it does? |
| 17:03.50 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-71-195-212-252.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:03.53 | levi | Yeesh. |
| 17:03.54 | ^Migs^ | assuming OR false does not mean one is dependent on the other |
| 17:04.23 | ^Migs^ | maybe you should've majored in philosophy after all :) |
| 17:04.57 | levi | Maybe you should quit being a smartass. |
| 17:07.29 | ^Migs^ | maybe you're forgetting how awesome I am |
| 17:07.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Maybe your MOM |
| 17:07.45 | lukfugl | -lart ^Migs^ |
| 17:08.24 | ^Migs^ | you know what I just realized I've never bought at the store before in my entire life? Raspberries. And you know what sounds good right now? Raspberry bread. |
| 17:08.39 | ^Migs^ | Mind I've never had raspberry, nor do I even know if it exists for that matter. But for some reason it sounds good. |
| 17:08.56 | graphyx | I haven't ever bought wheat at a store before, but I have eaten plenty of wheat bread. |
| 17:09.01 | ^Migs^ | s/raspberry/raspberry bread/ |
| 17:09.54 | ^Migs^ | banana-raspberry bread! Even better: http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/recipe_views/views/232441 |
| 17:11.23 | Lone_Wanderer | The primary enjoyment in raspberries for me is that they're light, sweet, and delicately constructed. |
| 17:11.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Bread is dense, not sweet, and relatively tough. |
| 17:11.51 | ^Migs^ | CHOCOLATE-raspberry bread OMG: http://southernfood.about.com/od/quickbreadrecipes/r/bln136.htm |
| 17:11.54 | brac | [Chocolate-Raspberry Bread Recipe] |
| 17:11.55 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: if you've never had a light sweet bread, you're missing out |
| 17:12.00 | jsmith | ^Migs^: Now that sounds good. |
| 17:12.00 | ^Migs^ | the ultimate would be chocolate-banana-raspberry bread |
| 17:12.07 | jsmith | Must be time for lunch |
| 17:12.29 | lukfugl | zuchinni bread is one of my favorites in that category |
| 17:12.31 | Lone_Wanderer | lukfugl: I have had some almond bread that's flaky, light and sweet, but it's still not as light as raspberries are. |
| 17:12.36 | ^Migs^ | yeah, where are you buying all this hard, tough bread? |
| 17:13.12 | ^Migs^ | oh, this one calls for raspberry jam. i DO have that. |
| 17:13.16 | Lone_Wanderer | It just seems like it'd be hard to really translate the raspberry experience into a bread. |
| 17:13.22 | ^Migs^ | cool, I could just go home and make that right now |
| 17:13.35 | Lone_Wanderer | It's only hard and tough in comparison to raspberries. |
| 17:13.47 | ^Migs^ | yeah. I thought of raspberry bread because there's some raspberries in the freezer here at work, but I don't know what made me think of bread. |
| 17:14.04 | ^Migs^ | concrete is also hard and tough in comparison to raspberries |
| 17:14.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Clearly it's a result of having been dropped on your head as a child. |
| 17:15.50 | Lone_Wanderer | I should ask my mom for her recipe for braided almond bread. It's delicious. |
| 17:16.50 | ^Migs^ | bread is so cool. Who would think that a big lump mixture could turn into bread when heated up? |
| 17:16.57 | ^Migs^ | s/lump/lumpy/ |
| 17:17.44 | tensai | you know how you can tell that a guy has no friends? he's buying zuchinni at the store. |
| 17:18.29 | ^Migs^ | what's wrong with buying zucchini? |
| 17:18.48 | ^Migs^ | what do you have against zucchini? Why zucchini? |
| 17:18.52 | ^Migs^ | what about squash? |
| 17:19.05 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: the eternal Utah joke of there always being a surplus of zucchini in home gardens, so it's always being given away to friends |
| 17:19.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Because a zucchini plant creates so much fruit that you have to give it away to everyone you know |
| 17:19.15 | Lone_Wanderer | in Minnesota too, lukfugl. |
| 17:19.19 | ^Migs^ | I've never heard that joke |
| 17:19.22 | lukfugl | or foisted on unwilling recipients, as the case may be |
| 17:19.24 | ^Migs^ | but that's funny |
| 17:19.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Garrison Keillor had a News from Lake Woebegone once |
| 17:19.44 | ^Migs^ | I don't think I know anyone besides my parents who have zucchini plants |
| 17:20.12 | Lone_Wanderer | "It's the time of year where you sneak over to your neighbor's houses in the night and leave your zucchini on their porch, only to return home to find your own porch covered in them..." |
| 17:20.29 | tensai | zucchini mash freezes well |
| 17:20.55 | tensai | Garrison, now there's a lame name if I've ever heard one |
| 17:21.14 | tensai | not as bad as Garrion, of course |
| 17:21.23 | lukfugl | tensai: spelled garion :) |
| 17:21.28 | Lone_Wanderer | You don't know Garrison Keillor? |
| 17:21.36 | jsmith-lunch | tensai: What about Garrisonville? |
| 17:21.48 | tensai | lame, lame. all lame. |
| 17:22.29 | tensai | here's a riot. user calls in because their internet isn't working. |
| 17:22.34 | lukfugl | about the only name lamer is "Corey" ;) |
| 17:23.23 | tensai | lukfugl: no kidding. that's what nicknames are for :) |
| 17:23.29 | lukfugl | heh |
| 17:23.45 | tensai | so, back to my story. we do the normal troubleshooting. I suggest that they have a loose cable. |
| 17:24.13 | tensai | turns out the user had unplugged the radio to punish his daughter, but had completely forgotten about it |
| 17:24.16 | findlay | story time? |
| 17:24.51 | Lone_Wanderer | D'oh |
| 17:25.08 | lukfugl | and the radio doubled as a router? |
| 17:25.20 | ^Migs^ | apparently |
| 17:25.27 | tensai | lukfugl: radio is a layer 2 bridge. it's wireless internet. |
| 17:25.42 | ^Migs^ | I just use my radio for listening to...you know...radio stations. |
| 17:25.53 | lukfugl | ah |
| 17:26.53 | tensai | sorry, should have clarified. radio is to wireless internet what a modem is to cable internet. |
| 17:28.00 | lukfugl | made sense once you clarified what radio you were talking about :) |
| 17:29.57 | elg | ^Migs^: the whole reason I'm getting a PhD is so I don't have to have a job like the one you say is hard to get if you have a PhD |
| 17:30.26 | ^Migs^ | PhDs are too much work |
| 17:30.34 | ^Migs^ | I think I'm too lazy to get anything beyond a master's |
| 17:30.47 | elg | masters in CS is pointless |
| 17:31.00 | elg | just go into the force and climb the ladder. you'll climb higher in the time it takes to get a msters |
| 17:31.15 | elg | a masters in CS is good as a stepping stone to PhD |
| 17:32.47 | tensai | elg: I decided the same thing. masters in CS is pointless. |
| 17:32.48 | elg | getting a PhD isn't about money. It's more cost-effective to just go out and start earning and climbing the ladder (or starting your own business or whatever) |
| 17:32.56 | elg | it's about lifestyle |
| 17:33.06 | elg | it's about working on what's interesting to YOU, not your boss |
| 17:33.30 | tensai | it's about making sure everybody knows you're smarter than they are |
| 17:33.30 | ^Migs^ | unless you become the boss |
| 17:33.36 | elg | whoa, byu CS has capstone now? |
| 17:33.42 | ^Migs^ | yeah, if I had a PhD, I'd insist EVERYONE call me Dr. Migs |
| 17:33.51 | ^Migs^ | even my wife |
| 17:33.53 | elg | I'm sure you would |
| 17:34.05 | ^Migs^ | that'd really be my only incentive, to have the bragging rights |
| 17:34.34 | elg | you don't need a phd or an md to be called dr |
| 17:34.39 | elg | just tell people to call you dr |
| 17:35.07 | elg | there might be a few uncomfortable public moments when someone tries to expose you, but by and large it'll work great |
| 17:35.49 | elg | I know a guy who teaches high school chemistry. I had no idea he had a PhD for the longest time |
| 17:36.19 | ^Migs^ | my parents could have named me Doctor. |
| 17:36.46 | ^Migs^ | I never understood those profs with a PhD who insist you call them by their first name. |
| 17:36.54 | ^Migs^ | Unless it's preceded by "Dr." |
| 17:39.28 | Lone_Wanderer | You don't need a masters to get a PhD. |
| 17:40.04 | macnewbold | but if you don't have one, you'll very frequently get one on the way |
| 17:40.43 | macnewbold | but once you have the PhD, the MS doesn't really matter as much |
| 17:40.46 | brac | but once you leave, you're no longer cords than 2 weeks ago, I have his book? |
| 17:40.51 | Lone_Wanderer | iirc the requirements for a masters are the same as for a PhD, only less, so in the process of getting a PhD you qualify for a masters. |
| 17:41.11 | Lone_Wanderer | Or something like that. I don't remember, my dad explained it to me. |
| 17:41.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Now, why aren't my tables accepting the width I'm trying to give them? |
| 17:41.30 | macnewbold | depends on the school, but yes, that's often the case |
| 17:41.47 | elg | Lone_Wanderer: almost. usually you have to write a masters thesis |
| 17:41.50 | macnewbold | at some schools the MS requires only coursework, so in filling the coursework requirements for the PhD you'll get one |
| 17:41.50 | Lone_Wanderer | I just need to find an advisor who'll let me go straight to my PhD. |
| 17:41.57 | macnewbold | the thesis is the catch |
| 17:42.06 | elg | so while you may have done all the coursework and research, it's still an extra (long) paper |
| 17:42.06 | macnewbold | but often it isn't much of a detour on the way to PhD |
| 17:42.07 | ^Migs^ | there's always diploma mills |
| 17:42.24 | Lone_Wanderer | I was actually thinking MIT, ^Migs^ :p |
| 17:42.35 | macnewbold | Lone_Wanderer: it's not the advisor so much as the school - if they'll let you into the PhD program or not |
| 17:42.47 | elg | macnewbold: yeah, and they say a "dry run" for the dissertation |
| 17:42.52 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, you have to have an advisor "sponsor" you or something, innit? |
| 17:43.14 | macnewbold | you get one once you're in, yes, and often whether or not one wants you influences your ability to get in or not |
| 17:43.36 | elg | but once you get the PhD nobody really cares, so unless you're at risk of dropping out before finishing the phd or switching schools, or enjoy being a student so much that you don't mind the detour |
| 17:43.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Honestly, when it comes time to apply to PhD programs, I fully intend to do the dishonorable thing and take full advantage of my Dad's contacts. |
| 17:44.26 | macnewbold | don't count on that as your only hope of getting in though - if you don't have the grades and skills to go with it, contacts won't help all that much, in my experience |
| 17:44.45 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, absolutely. |
| 17:44.56 | elg | if you don't have the glasses to wear at night, contacts are of limited utility |
| 17:44.58 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Just be sure to get some research experience as an undergrad. |
| 17:45.18 | Lone_Wanderer | And I wouldn't even consider asking my Dad to help me out if I weren't qualified, because I know what he'd say :p |
| 17:45.30 | ^Migs^ | I'm going to find a school that lets me apply my "life experiences" toward my PhD |
| 17:45.37 | elg | he'd say, "go out and wander alone, son."? |
| 17:45.39 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: From what I've read, having letters of recommendation from professors saying how great you are at research is far better than grades. |
| 17:45.48 | Lone_Wanderer | He'd find a very nice way of saying no. |
| 17:46.33 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: Part of my Dad's program when he redid the Bio/Ag college at the Y was to make sure that every undergrad got some research experience before they graduated. |
| 17:46.58 | levi | That's cool. Good experience to have, even if you're not going to grad school. |
| 17:47.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah. |
| 17:48.09 | levi | I really wish it was introduced a lot earlier in undergrad education, and that it took up more of it. As far as I'm concerned, research skills should be a large part of what higher education is all about. |
| 17:48.15 | Lone_Wanderer | He's been in academia forever and wants to try and fix things, but there's so much resistance to it that he's never had much luck. |
| 17:49.19 | elg | ~fix Lone_Wanderer |
| 17:49.22 | ibot | ACTION opens the hood of Lone_Wanderer , looks inside and says "that'll be 500 dollars." |
| 17:50.59 | sjansen | ~rlart |
| 17:51.01 | ibot | acting on orders from an unspecified client drags Lancep into court suing for $200 million |
| 17:51.09 | sjansen | perl perl perl |
| 17:51.37 | elg | perl is a girl's name |
| 17:52.33 | graphyx | Perl rhythms with girl! |
| 17:53.31 | elg | perl and java sitting in a tree, p a r s i n g |
| 17:54.33 | herlo | elg: you need help... |
| 17:54.37 | herlo | ~help elg |
| 17:54.53 | sjansen | heh |
| 17:55.45 | elg | first comes love, then comes bytecode, then comes a language in a .NET VM |
| 17:55.45 | elg | ran out of rhymes |
| 17:55.59 | levi | herlo: He's a Ph.D student. Of course he's crazy. :) |
| 17:56.15 | herlo | levi: agreed |
| 17:56.48 | sjansen | ~flunk elg |
| 17:56.55 | ibot | ACTION shoves a dunce cap on elg then encourages everyone to point and laugh |
| 17:58.15 | levi | http://www.cs.uni.edu/~wallingf/blog/archives/monthly/2007-04.html#e2007-04-04T17_57_41.htm |
| 17:58.20 | sjansen | ~language elg |
| 17:58.22 | ibot | ACTION grabs elg by the ear and washes elg's mouth out with soap |
| 18:02.01 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> The channel for OSS discussion in Utah | http://www.plug.org/node/28 | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 | Dirty words like Java and Cobol are not appreciated |
| 18:02.38 | tensai | java you elg! java you to cobol! |
| 18:02.54 | lukfugl | for me, MS = chance to rebuild my academic reputation before applying to another school for PhD |
| 18:05.53 | lukfugl | my academic performance wasn't bad, but I kinda went AWOL for several years before finally finishing my bachelor. don't want to go applying to outside schools with that kind of record |
| 18:06.33 | lukfugl | I'm fairly certain BYU will take me for MS though, as I have a professor I did undergrad research with that I'm certain wants to see the research resumed |
| 18:07.09 | elg | tensai: perl you! |
| 18:07.51 | tensai | mmm. fresh clam. |
| 18:08.23 | tensai | elg: did you ever build that oven? |
| 18:08.58 | elg | brick oven? |
| 18:09.54 | tensai | clay oven or brick or something |
| 18:10.20 | elg | brick. no, I decided to wait until I have more spce and money |
| 18:10.32 | elg | it wouldn't be terribly expensive, but more than a dutch oven |
| 18:10.38 | elg | which accomplishes almost the same thing |
| 18:11.04 | tensai | since my wife is out of town I'm planning a brick smoke house. something small. |
| 18:11.18 | tensai | http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/lib2/smokehs.htm |
| 18:11.32 | tensai | that's just for cold smoking. I want to do both cold and hot. |
| 18:12.27 | elg | how does hot smoking work? |
| 18:13.03 | tensai | hot smoking is indirect cooking at >180 degrees. cooks and smokes. |
| 18:13.17 | tensai | cold smoking is just smoking at <140 degrees. smoked but not cooked. |
| 18:14.11 | Lone_Wanderer | How do you make the really good kind of jerky? |
| 18:15.08 | tensai | Lone_Wanderer: jerky is dried, but not necessarily smoked |
| 18:15.30 | Lone_Wanderer | MY jerky is! |
| 18:15.35 | elg | tensai: and you want it to double as a brick oven? |
| 18:15.57 | Lone_Wanderer | Just like MY Jesus drives a monster truck powered by Rock and Rolll. |
| 18:16.12 | Lone_Wanderer | When he runs out of gas he just pulls over and puts on a rock show to fill up. |
| 18:16.37 | tensai | elg: no, just the smoker |
| 18:17.15 | tensai | elg: just wondered if you actually finished yours and if you had any tips |
| 18:19.22 | elg | haven't done it, no |
| 18:19.27 | elg | do you have any masonry experience? |
| 18:23.16 | vontrapp | what does ooffice do with 'recovered' documents? |
| 18:23.38 | vontrapp | elg: i have probably as much as you |
| 18:25.24 | redbeard1 | every so often, i have to go to the ultimate grill for lunch, apparently just to remind myself why i never go there |
| 18:25.41 | lukfugl | "the ultimate grill"? |
| 18:25.50 | lukfugl | the name should be warning enough |
| 18:26.08 | redbeard1 | well, they sell greek "food", and it's been a while since i've had a good gyro |
| 18:26.19 | redbeard1 | apparently it will still be a while before i have one |
| 18:27.37 | elg | redbeard1: what about appollo burger? |
| 18:27.52 | elg | i'm not a gyro expert, but I think their gyros are good |
| 18:28.07 | vontrapp | -lart ooffice |
| 18:28.11 | redbeard1 | elg: yeah, they would at least have given me a whole pita rather than two little triangles |
| 18:28.57 | herlo | redbeard1: go to greek souvlaki in SLC, two locations. Also, there is tickles on 3900 S 900 E too... |
| 18:29.12 | elg | here's an "open source" brick oven plan |
| 18:29.12 | redbeard1 | herlo: i love that place, but i'm stuck in orem atm |
| 18:29.12 | elg | http://www.fornobravo.com/pompeii_oven/pompeii_oven.html |
| 18:29.15 | brac | [Brick Oven Plans | Build an Italian Brick Oven] |
| 18:29.30 | elg | but it's more complicated than you want unless you're a homeowner looking to build a nice brick oven |
| 18:29.46 | elg | if you're a cheapskate looking for the cheapest, simplest, etc. it's not as good |
| 18:29.48 | herlo | redbeard1: I'll get you one on my way back from moving today. I will be going almost that far anyway... |
| 18:30.26 | redbeard1 | herlo: dude, you're my hero. you gonna be in orem? |
| 18:30.35 | herlo | Yeah, actually. |
| 18:30.40 | redbeard1 | when? |
| 18:30.48 | herlo | well, I am leaving Springville now |
| 18:31.31 | herlo | and I'll be heading up to Murray to drop a load of stuff off at my storage unit, then I'll be heading over to tickles to get a gyro, then back to orem to pick up a key. So probably around 3pm |
| 18:31.39 | redbeard1 | oh man. this tziki sauce is almost offensively thin. |
| 18:31.48 | herlo | redbeard1: well... |
| 18:31.57 | redbeard1 | dude, i'll be at work at 3, so that would be perfect |
| 18:32.36 | redbeard1 | and you know where i work of course, since it's where plug meets |
| 18:33.06 | herlo | redbeard1: yeah I do. I can probably pull it off |
| 18:33.36 | Lone_Wanderer | ~lart alternative medicine weenies |
| 18:33.37 | ibot | whips alternative medicine weenies with a wet and grimy noodle just because |
| 18:33.52 | redbeard1 | Lone_Wanderer: you have a story to tell? |
| 18:33.58 | Lone_Wanderer | No. |
| 18:34.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Just a friend who has a "bad back". |
| 18:34.14 | Lone_Wanderer | She "put it out" earlier this week by lifting a cast iron skillet. |
| 18:34.25 | redbeard1 | wow. that must have been one massive skillet. |
| 18:34.33 | vontrapp | my wife had to restart ooffice because it froze |
| 18:34.43 | Lone_Wanderer | And is convinced that nothing (especially not strengthening her core muscles) will help. |
| 18:34.56 | vontrapp | when she rrestarted it said it rrocovered something |
| 18:35.13 | Lone_Wanderer | She also thinks that rubbing your feet will help fix problems in your liver, kidneys, spleen, etc. |
| 18:35.35 | vontrapp | she said she clicked recover, but then there was nothing |
| 18:35.40 | Lone_Wanderer | weird |
| 18:36.29 | elg | redbeard1: wait, you don't work where Jayce^ is? |
| 18:36.39 | elg | or has plug moved away from sco? |
| 18:36.50 | vontrapp | away from sco |
| 18:36.59 | tensai | vontrapp: when ooo recovers a file, it opens it back up. it doesn't save it to some unknown location. |
| 18:37.06 | redbeard1 | elg: yes, i do. why? |
| 18:37.10 | vontrapp | -chat about away from sco |
| 18:37.10 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 18:37.31 | redbeard1 | Lone_Wanderer: it's tragic that people have to be like that |
| 18:37.38 | vontrapp | -chat about from sco |
| 18:37.38 | brac | from sco |
| 18:37.47 | vontrapp | tensai: but the file was never saved |
| 18:37.59 | Lone_Wanderer | redbeard1: It is indeed tragic. She also has a "degree" (or something) in alternative medicine. So she thinks that it's actually real. |
| 18:38.02 | tensai | wait, so Jayce^ is a mole for SCO and has been feeding them Linux secrets? |
| 18:38.16 | tensai | vontrapp: doesn't matter. ooo autosaves it somewhere. |
| 18:38.16 | elg | tensai: if I were to build an oven now, I would take a cue from the inuit and do it like an igloo |
| 18:38.20 | elg | but out of brick and mortar |
| 18:38.47 | elg | some insulating base (on the ground, elevating the brick oven is for prissies) |
| 18:38.52 | vontrapp | well then my question is where is that auto save located? |
| 18:38.55 | redbeard1 | Lone_Wanderer: where is her supposed degree from? |
| 18:39.46 | ^Migs^ | http://www.onmarijuana.com/2007/04/03/the-great-tennessee-marijuana-cave/ |
| 18:40.41 | vontrapp | i really don't want her to have to type the whole thing again |
| 18:41.05 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: wow |
| 18:41.09 | sjansen | o/~ How bad do you want it? How bad to you need it? ~/o |
| 18:41.14 | vontrapp | i already feel bad that she had to type it on my dvorak keyboard :( |
| 18:42.01 | ^Migs^ | I love that hydraulic-lifted escape hatch! |
| 18:42.18 | lukfugl | "Behind this vault door is Wonkaland for stoners." |
| 18:42.25 | sjansen | jsmith-lunch: http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Tim-Mcgraw/How-Bad-Do-You-Want-It.html |
| 18:42.26 | brac | [TIM MCGRAW - HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT Lyrics] |
| 18:42.43 | ^Migs^ | they should get a reduced sentence just for ingenuity |
| 18:44.50 | vontrapp | injun ooty? |
| 18:44.57 | ^Migs^ | http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/05/bridge.sex.offenders/index.html |
| 18:44.58 | brac | [Florida housing sex offenders under bridge - CNN.com] |
| 18:51.33 | tensai | elg: yeah, way too complicated for my uses. but the tutorial on bricks helps a ton. |
| 18:54.23 | vontrapp | -lart find |
| 18:58.10 | sjansen | ~quote scox |
| 18:58.34 | sjansen | That's not good, not good at all for SCO. |
| 18:58.49 | elg | tensai: so what general design are you using? |
| 18:59.34 | tensai | elg: still working on it. I'm thinking of just stacking bricks in a cube shape |
| 18:59.40 | Lone_Wanderer | mmm, this is a good tomato |
| 19:00.06 | elg | i wish I had some mud |
| 19:00.31 | elg | i could make an adobe oven "for the price of a bale of hay" if I just had some dirk |
| 19:00.34 | elg | er, dirt |
| 19:01.11 | Lone_Wanderer | is dirt really that hard to come by? |
| 19:01.37 | elg | yes and no |
| 19:01.40 | brac | yes and no heating |
| 19:01.47 | tensai | depends on the quantity I would think |
| 19:01.55 | elg | i suppose it would be not too difficult to find someone who'd give me some if I had a truck |
| 19:02.08 | elg | if I didn't live in an apartment I could just use whatever is in my back yard |
| 19:03.18 | ^Migs^ | to what level of accuracy does ls -alts sort by date? |
| 19:03.28 | ^Migs^ | to the second, millisecond...? |
| 19:06.55 | ^Migs^ | http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6269 |
| 19:06.56 | brac | [Utah Outdoor Forum] |
| 19:07.14 | findlay | uuttaahh..ccoomm |
| 19:07.55 | findlay | ^Migs^: probably as accurately as it can |
| 19:08.34 | ^Migs^ | um, thanks |
| 19:08.58 | findlay | np |
| 19:09.01 | findlay | ask any time |
| 19:09.16 | findlay | be sure to tip your waitresses |
| 19:10.20 | *** join/#utah olsonl (n=olsonl@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 19:10.37 | *** part/#utah olsonl (n=olsonl@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 19:11.52 | goozbach | sjansen: when you get ready to buy your lenovo laptop, let these guys do all the hard work for you: http://www.emperorlinux.com/mfgr/lenovo/ |
| 19:11.55 | brac | [EmperorLinux -- ThinkPads with Linux: T60, T60p, X41, X41 Tablet, X60, X60s] |
| 19:12.30 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@mailhub.sosstaffing.com) |
| 19:20.19 | graphyx | goozbach: do you get to pick the distro? |
| 19:20.50 | ^Migs^ | there's hard work involved? |
| 19:21.15 | Lone_Wanderer | If there isn't hard work involved, I want no part in it. |
| 19:22.13 | findlay | ~work |
| 19:22.18 | ibot | i guess work is the integral of the dot product of force and displacement |
| 19:22.31 | findlay | ~energy |
| 19:22.52 | findlay | ~power |
| 19:22.53 | ibot | i guess power is for newer opie releases you need to have apmd installed to have a working power button. or see external power, or the derivative of energy with respect to time |
| 19:24.07 | graphyx | ~dot product |
| 19:24.35 | findlay | ~force |
| 19:24.36 | ibot | i heard force is When observed from an inertial reference frame, the vector sum of all forces on a particle is proportional to the rate of change of its linear momentum with respect to time. |
| 19:24.52 | findlay | hm, how did you know all that ibot? :) |
| 19:34.49 | tensai | ibot: how did you know that findlay smells like camel spit? |
| 19:34.50 | ibot | what, you didn't know that findlay smells like camel spit?!? |
| 19:35.50 | Lone_Wanderer | redbeard1: I don't know where her "degree" is from, I didn't ask. |
| 19:36.28 | graphyx | ibot: you are a riot! |
| 19:36.29 | ibot | graphyx: what are you talking about? |
| 19:36.42 | redbeard1 | Lone_Wanderer: i'm just curious. i know a lady who is supposedly a master herbalist, trained at some little school in springville |
| 19:37.02 | tensai | ibot: who told you that? |
| 19:37.03 | ibot | sontek |
| 19:37.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Fascinating. |
| 19:37.14 | findlay | ~riot tensai |
| 19:37.59 | elg | ~rlart findlay |
| 19:38.29 | tensai | ~beep sjansen |
| 19:38.31 | ibot | ACTION informs sjansen that the beeper is no longer in service |
| 19:39.11 | Lone_Wanderer | And now I've got a "druidess" IMing me about how vaccines give kids autism. |
| 19:39.17 | findlay | ~\a tensai |
| 19:39.35 | redbeard1 | Lone_Wanderer: a druidess? do tell |
| 19:39.42 | findlay | heh |
| 19:39.50 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess she really likes trees. |
| 19:40.03 | findlay | um autism is pretty much a DNA problem |
| 19:40.29 | findlay | hard to change every set of DNA with a vaccine |
| 19:40.36 | Lone_Wanderer | findlay: I know. I'm fairly certain you can't develop it after birth. |
| 19:40.44 | findlay | :) |
| 19:40.44 | tensai | findlay: are you saying that the rising rates of autism are due to better detection and/or more lax definitions of autism? |
| 19:40.44 | elg | findlay: not hard on Star Trek |
| 19:40.50 | brac | not hard :( |
| 19:40.58 | findlay | brac: tragically |
| 19:41.03 | elg | tensai: are you saying that findlay is autistic? |
| 19:41.29 | findlay | ~autize |
| 19:41.30 | tensai | elg: are you saying findlay belongs in a jeffrey's tube? |
| 19:41.30 | sjansen | Yet another example of correlation != causation. |
| 19:41.47 | elg | sjansen: are you saying that logic is meaningless? |
| 19:41.54 | sjansen | For some reason, a larger number percentage of children with highly educated children are born with autism. |
| 19:41.56 | findlay | -chat about are you |
| 19:41.57 | brac | but chat about is elementary |
| 19:41.57 | brac | are you plugged into? |
| 19:42.00 | elg | tensai: yes, I am |
| 19:42.19 | sjansen | I'm willing to be parents with education take their children to get vaccinated more often than parents with less education. |
| 19:42.38 | sjansen | Therefore, it's obvious that vaccination causes autism but makes parents smarter. |
| 19:42.40 | Lone_Wanderer | What's a Jeffrey's tube? |
| 19:42.51 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Start Trek reference |
| 19:42.58 | Lone_Wanderer | I know, but what are they? :p |
| 19:43.02 | elg | findlay's new quarters |
| 19:43.10 | sjansen | the access tunnels for the ship's internals |
| 19:43.19 | Lone_Wanderer | oh, the little crawlspaces? |
| 19:43.57 | Lone_Wanderer | that Captain Picard is always crawling through to get away from hijackers or alien invaders, or to access some control panel or other with which he can reconfigure the main deflector array? |
| 19:44.25 | tensai | Lone_Wanderer: yes. named after the first tech to get his large butt stuck in one |
| 19:44.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Cool. |
| 19:46.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Sometimes I wonder if there isn't really just *one* Jeffrey's tube that they use over and over when shooting... |
| 19:47.19 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 19:48.15 | elg | tensai: I'll probably do something like this: http://www.primitiveways.com/adobe_horno.html |
| 19:48.16 | brac | [Adobe Horno] |
| 19:48.34 | elg | even though I should be satisfied with my dutch oven, it just looks like too much fun |
| 19:48.49 | jsmith | elg: I didn't know Adobe made a product called Horno ;-) |
| 19:49.07 | Lone_Wanderer | I wonder if I'm on any government lists for being on the mailing lists of several impeachment-based sites. |
| 19:49.08 | elg | jsmith: it's not as well known as photoshop and acrobat, but it's more down to earth |
| 19:49.14 | brac | it's not the only way I've been losing customers... |
| 19:49.18 | sjansen | elg: I'm not just saying that logic is meaningless. I'm saying life is meaningless. All is vanity. |
| 19:49.20 | Lone_Wanderer | elg: good one :p |
| 19:49.23 | jsmith | elg: Oooh... good one. |
| 19:49.30 | sjansen | Vanity vanity vanity! Whine whine whine! Complain complain complain! |
| 19:50.09 | jsmith | sjansen: Sounds just like country music |
| 19:50.09 | elg | ~vain sjansen |
| 19:50.16 | sjansen | jsmith: The Bible, actually. But close enough. ;-) |
| 19:50.46 | goozbach | rps! |
| 19:50.49 | Lone_Wanderer | I saw a graph of people killed in the Bible |
| 19:50.52 | brac | I saw that about half of them in april |
| 19:50.55 | Lone_Wanderer | divided up between God and Satan. |
| 19:50.59 | Lone_Wanderer | Satan had about ten. |
| 19:51.48 | elg | tensai: but I'd probably cheat and use brick from the store |
| 19:52.11 | elg | can you still use mud as your mortar if you use firebrick? :) |
| 19:52.36 | ^Migs^ | why did brac say that? |
| 19:53.01 | graphyx | Lone_Wanderer: God kills everyone, It was a system design. |
| 19:53.16 | graphyx | Satan doesn't want dead people, just corrupt ones. |
| 19:53.31 | ^Migs^ | I think the Great Flood probably put God way over the top, if you want to look at it that way |
| 19:53.50 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah, I'm not sure how they came up with their numbers. |
| 19:53.52 | graphyx | See there is a good example |
| 19:53.56 | elg | what do you think cheesecake is made out of? |
| 19:54.15 | levi | I'll bet they told you it was made from cream cheese. Ha! |
| 19:54.24 | graphyx | satan made sjansen glutenous, but didn't kill him. |
| 19:54.39 | Lone_Wanderer | cheesecake is made out of indulgence and deceit |
| 19:54.39 | sjansen | The Country music made me do it! |
| 19:54.40 | graphyx | jk |
| 19:54.51 | graphyx | I like cheesecake too. |
| 19:55.13 | lukfugl | soylent cheesecake? |
| 19:55.24 | sjansen | ~slap lukfugl |
| 19:55.26 | ibot | ACTION slaps lukfugl, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 19:55.51 | tensai | graphyx: you probably meant gluttonous. I don't think sjansen is a loaf of bread, but I could be wrong. |
| 19:57.02 | graphyx | lol |
| 19:57.04 | graphyx | yeah |
| 19:57.19 | tensai | if he was a loaf of bread, we could probably bake him in a horno oven |
| 19:57.27 | graphyx | He did temp Jesus to make a rock glutenous. |
| 20:00.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Jesus worked at a temp agency? |
| 20:02.15 | goozbach | tempt |
| 20:02.24 | goozbach | methinks the word you are looking for is tempt |
| 20:03.09 | Lone_Wanderer | I need to stop eating wheat things. There will be none left for lunch tomorrow if I do not. |
| 20:03.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Things. Wheat things. |
| 20:03.17 | Lone_Wanderer | THINS! |
| 20:03.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Why my fingers will not allow me to type "thin" followed by an "s" without inserting that nefarious post-F letter I do not know. |
| 20:10.20 | elg | maybe I could make triangular adobe bricks and a geodesic dome oven |
| 20:10.20 | elg | http://hilaroad.com/camp/projects/dome/dome.html |
| 20:11.24 | lukfugl | geodesic dome oven ++ |
| 20:12.03 | maquis | ~dict intimating |
| 20:12.30 | Lone_Wanderer | I think it's like telling a secret. Kind of. |
| 20:12.49 | Lone_Wanderer | For example I may intimate to you my love of My Little Ponies. |
| 20:13.07 | lukfugl | intimate(v) ~ imply |
| 20:13.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Or maybe I'm just making things up. |
| 20:13.10 | lukfugl | in my mind |
| 20:13.27 | lukfugl | but that doesn't match that definition |
| 20:14.40 | Lone_Wanderer | It could, if he's proclaiming open war on Iraq and intimating open war on Iran. |
| 20:14.55 | Lone_Wanderer | (Note how I just implied that Bush is incontinent.) |
| 20:15.13 | elg | intimate: imply or hint, state or make known |
| 20:15.16 | elg | according to my dictionary |
| 20:17.32 | elg | http://www.subatomichumor.com/old/dome.html |
| 20:17.33 | brac | [Subatomic Humor -- I Want to Live in a Geodesic Dome] |
| 20:19.10 | tensai | that was scary. I thought I brought down our accounting database. |
| 20:19.44 | findlay | was it in access? |
| 20:20.49 | tensai | it's sql server. I was making schema changes. |
| 20:21.08 | elg | i'm liking this geodesic dome idea |
| 20:21.39 | elg | it's cooler than a regular dome. it's patented, so I can be rebellious |
| 20:21.48 | lukfugl | it reminds me. I still need to make a couple hundred paper tetrahedra someday to try out an experiment |
| 20:22.16 | elg | but I'm not sure if it'll be obvious that it is a geodesic dome when I'm done |
| 20:23.05 | Lone_Wanderer | omg |
| 20:23.11 | Lone_Wanderer | I can actually afford to go to PAX this year. |
| 20:32.31 | elg | tensai: http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/%7Edac/BrickOven/Instant_BrickOven.html |
| 20:32.32 | brac | [The 1-Hour Brick Oven] |
| 20:32.45 | tensai | 1 hour, eh? |
| 20:37.54 | tensai | mine won't get anywhere near that hot. 250F at the most |
| 20:39.50 | ^Migs^ | you must've done it wrong |
| 20:39.55 | brac | you must've done it through that without having to use it... so I try to actually track it and it *was* a computer virus or spyware application is what you see phallus' everywhere, maybe ... a podcast! |
| 20:40.10 | tensai | my biggest concern is where I'm going to put it |
| 20:40.17 | tensai | I don't want it near anything flammable |
| 20:40.23 | tensai | or inflammable |
| 20:40.44 | tensai | ^Migs^: I haven't built it yet. I'm building a smoker, not a brick oven. similar ideas though. |
| 20:41.27 | elg | i think you won't have to worry |
| 20:41.28 | ^Migs^ | Oh. So it's theoretically 250F at the most. |
| 20:41.44 | elg | you saw the guy with the adobe oven right next to his fence and plantes |
| 20:41.46 | elg | that were growing right next to it |
| 20:41.47 | brac | you saw my patches to GNU libc to fix it |
| 20:41.56 | ^Migs^ | I don't know. The thought of tensai building a combustible appliance worries me. |
| 20:42.21 | tensai | elg: in theory sure. but so far I'm 2 for 2 burning down smokers. |
| 20:42.35 | ^Migs^ | in theory, I'm a millionaire |
| 20:42.49 | ^Migs^ | with million-dollar abs |
| 20:43.13 | tensai | but so far you're only a hundredaire with 25 cent abs |
| 20:43.27 | lukfugl | ~language brac |
| 20:43.40 | ibot | ACTION grabs brac by the ear and washes brac's mouth out with soap |
| 20:44.12 | ^Migs^ | that's about right |
| 20:44.14 | elg | tensai: wood smokers? |
| 20:44.19 | ^Migs^ | the theory is the important point, though |
| 20:44.34 | tensai | elg: electric |
| 20:45.08 | tensai | first time I forgot to soak the wood chips and the cardyboard box lit on fire |
| 20:45.31 | tensai | so then I used a terra cotta pot. but I modded my hotplate and started an electrical fire. |
| 20:45.47 | tensai | I only had two payments left on that hot plate too! |
| 20:46.30 | Jayce^ | tensai, hehe, smoked a couple pork shoulders last weekend :) |
| 20:49.12 | mrpull | Jayce^: where do you get rolling papers that big? |
| 20:49.34 | synic | has anyone here used e-gold? |
| 20:50.01 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristan@137.190.80.252) |
| 20:51.12 | lukfugl | synic: sounds like a WoW gold farming outfit |
| 20:51.16 | lukfugl | (just by the name) |
| 20:52.36 | *** join/#utah pr0le (n=jeremiah@72-254-127-186.hq.ibahn.com) |
| 20:53.06 | ^Migs^ | is it an escrow service? |
| 20:53.16 | mheath | Ew |
| 20:53.22 | ^Migs^ | escrow, not escort |
| 20:53.28 | mheath | I don't care if you dislike java, elg |
| 20:53.35 | mheath | Grouping it with cobol is just cruel. |
| 20:53.43 | ^Migs^ | I agree with mheath |
| 20:53.47 | ^Migs^ | lay off Java |
| 20:54.02 | synic | I really don't know what it is. |
| 20:54.14 | synic | some dude only accepts e-gold. So I signed up for an account. |
| 20:54.17 | ^Migs^ | check Uncle Wiki |
| 20:54.30 | synic | but it looks like you buy the "e-gold" from your bank, and they put it in your egold account |
| 20:54.43 | synic | it's really kind of odd. |
| 20:55.01 | mheath | Sounds fort-knoxish |
| 20:55.06 | mheath | And the entire idea is really, really stupid |
| 20:55.10 | mheath | Its for internet purchases |
| 20:55.38 | mheath | So the value is entirely based on international exchange rates, etc. anyway. |
| 20:55.40 | mheath | I don |
| 20:55.57 | mheath | I don't see why thats superior to credit-system based purchases.. |
| 20:56.23 | ^Migs^ | sounds like a scam |
| 20:56.30 | lukfugl | it seems like it would be easier to get your e-gold credits haxored away than the real money in your bank, too |
| 20:56.44 | ^Migs^ | why not just use Paypal? |
| 20:57.24 | mheath | Personally, I think that credit-card sytem purchases are safer |
| 20:57.34 | mheath | I could care less if some shady company has gold bullion sitting in storage |
| 20:57.42 | levi | e-gold has been around for a long time. |
| 20:57.56 | synic | I just don't understand how I get said "gold" into my account. |
| 20:58.02 | mheath | A purchase is more reliable if it's backed up by the economic strength of, say, Visa or Mastercard. |
| 20:58.04 | levi | It was an interesting idea when it first came out. |
| 20:58.48 | mheath | Wait |
| 20:58.58 | synic | I want to pay this guy. I'm not really interested in security with this amount of money. |
| 20:59.04 | mheath | Isn't this rediculous overkill? |
| 20:59.11 | synic | I just don't know how one comes to HAVE egold in the first place |
| 20:59.12 | mheath | It sounds like buying and selling things with stock |
| 20:59.15 | synic | you can't buy it off their site. |
| 20:59.24 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@64-205-130-223.client.dsl.net) |
| 20:59.27 | lukfugl | synic: I'm guessing you need to buy egold using your bank account money, then transfer your egold to said dude |
| 20:59.29 | mheath | My computer cost me 1,000 BP shares! |
| 20:59.42 | synic | lukfugl: there's no form to fill out account information. |
| 20:59.50 | lukfugl | you can't buy it? that's lame |
| 20:59.53 | mheath | IE, it seems like this just undoes the whole purpose of a standardized currency. |
| 20:59.55 | synic | there's no "buy gold here" |
| 21:00.19 | lukfugl | synic: you probably have to create a WoW character and earn some then ;) |
| 21:00.25 | synic | AAAH |
| 21:00.39 | mheath | " e-gold is accounted by weight of metal, not US$ or any other national currency unit. Weight units have a precise, invariable, internationally recognized definition. Additionally, precious metals, gold in particular, enjoy a long history of monetary use around the world. Thus, e-gold is ideally suited for international transactions." |
| 21:00.56 | ^Migs^ | every other nation in the world just needs to do away with their primitive forms of currency and start using real, American dollars. Not their worthless pesos and wampum. |
| 21:01.09 | synic | mheath: right... by how the heck do I get e-gold? |
| 21:01.28 | mheath | It's a complicated process. |
| 21:01.36 | mheath | Step one, find a seller that doesn't require e-gold |
| 21:01.47 | mheath | Step two, buy what you were going to buy from said seller |
| 21:01.54 | mheath | Step three.....wait....there is no step three. |
| 21:02.03 | ^Migs^ | step four...PROFIT! |
| 21:02.08 | ScytheBlade1 | Was waiting for that. |
| 21:02.28 | ^Migs^ | it's like a reflex sometimes |
| 21:02.28 | mheath | But, I DON'T UNDERSTAND this e-gold thing? |
| 21:02.31 | mheath | What is the point? |
| 21:02.51 | graphyx | for them to make money on the conversion process. |
| 21:02.52 | mheath | What does it really accomplish, vs. credit card payments using, say, Visa's international system? |
| 21:02.55 | ^Migs^ | I guess if you convince enough people through propaganda and shamless promotion that it's "better" that's enough point for anyone |
| 21:03.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Remember the #1 rule of America: "Some corporation somewhere is going to make money" |
| 21:03.24 | mheath | They say "Gold is measured in weight, not variable different currencies!" |
| 21:03.36 | ScytheBlade1 | They're also idiots who want your money |
| 21:03.43 | ScytheBlade1 | You going to be an idiot also and give it to them? |
| 21:03.44 | mheath | But that doesn't mean anything! To do anything _useful_ with said gold in the _real_ world, at some point it has to be converted into currency again |
| 21:03.50 | mheath | At which point, you just lost any advantage. |
| 21:04.01 | ^Migs^ | keep in mind you're also converting your currency INTO gold |
| 21:04.06 | ^Migs^ | this whole thing is stupid |
| 21:04.09 | graphyx | That is true, unless a seller posts prices in e-gold |
| 21:04.16 | ^Migs^ | it's the exact same thing as any other normal transaction |
| 21:04.23 | mheath | Well, how is USD -> GOLD -> BP any better than USD -> BP? |
| 21:04.32 | ^Migs^ | you're still converting one currency to another. But now there's this mysterious "first convert into gold" intermediate process. |
| 21:04.47 | ^Migs^ | during that -> GOLD -> part someone profits and takes extra money |
| 21:04.49 | *** join/#utah bonez41 (n=aint@c-71-195-253-135.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:05.06 | ^Migs^ | synic, inform your friend he's an idiot for using this idiotic service |
| 21:05.08 | graphyx | cause if you keep your account in e-gold you have a safer standard than might not decrease in value. |
| 21:05.27 | ^Migs^ | how is that any better than the money market? |
| 21:05.57 | ^Migs^ | can you accumulate interest through e-gold? |
| 21:06.01 | mheath | The only advantage I could possibly see, is if EVERYONE used E-gold, and online sellers gave price by e-gold weight |
| 21:06.17 | mheath | But that would just be an easier-to-calculate-the-cost advantage, not a functional monetary difference. |
| 21:06.57 | tensai | the whole idea of currency based on precious metals is farcical |
| 21:07.14 | mheath | Its antiquated. It makes no sense anymore. |
| 21:07.17 | tensai | gold only has value because people assign a value to it. same is true of paper money. |
| 21:07.19 | mheath | It hasn't made any sense for ~200 years. |
| 21:07.35 | mheath | tensai, well, same is true at some level of every economy. |
| 21:07.51 | tensai | mheath: that's my point. saying gold is better than anything else ignores that fact. |
| 21:08.01 | ScytheBlade1 | Ignore "it hasn't made sense" - it's all fake. The US does not, in all truth, have a big vault full of gold backing every US dollar. |
| 21:08.19 | mheath | They _did_. |
| 21:08.23 | mheath | And it made sense when they did |
| 21:08.36 | mheath | The US was nervous, economically. |
| 21:08.49 | ScytheBlade1 | And now we have the internet and many more years of common sense and evolution around ^_^ |
| 21:09.13 | mheath | They wanted something physically valuable to back up their currency, in case something happened to the government. |
| 21:09.14 | ^Migs^ | Now we can convert money into Second Life funds |
| 21:09.30 | mheath | The governments not around to make youyr money worth something anymore, you still have gold. |
| 21:10.10 | mheath | This e-gold thing sounds like someone saw the old fort knox concept and said "Oh, cool, we can make some money off of that! Lets set up an internet site doing the same thing!" |
| 21:10.18 | ScytheBlade1 | <ScytheBlade1> They're also idiots who want your money |
| 21:10.18 | ScytheBlade1 | <ScytheBlade1> You going to be an idiot also and give it to them? |
| 21:10.23 | ScytheBlade1 | *cough* |
| 21:10.37 | ScytheBlade1 | (Not you directly, just someone in general) |
| 21:11.02 | mheath | They seemed to forget that 1) The Fort Knox concept was based on a total collapse of the monetary system....the internet is based on the global monetary system, of which a collapse is not POSSIBLE |
| 21:11.29 | tensai | I don't believe egold is a scam. it's been around for a while and is a paypal-style escrow. I've never personally used it but I've seen it a lot. |
| 21:12.00 | mheath | 2) The Fort Knox system was based on the physical availabiliy of gold on request of a gold certificate (dollar) holder. E-gold can't offer that. |
| 21:12.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Scam? No. But no matter how you cut it, they have to make somehow. |
| 21:12.15 | mheath | tensai, I wouldn't argue that its probably a legitimate company. |
| 21:12.24 | mheath | But they're trying to make it sound like something better than an escrow service |
| 21:12.39 | mheath | Or trying to make it sound like their escrow service is better for illegitimate reasons |
| 21:12.50 | levi | mheath: That's what we like to call 'marketing' ;) |
| 21:13.37 | mheath | Your money is backed up by E-SPAM; millions of cans of SPAM are stored in our secure facility! |
| 21:13.39 | atoponce | has anyone used mod_cache in apache2? |
| 21:16.24 | synic | ok, yeah, this is just pissing me off. Why would anyone want to go through all these hoops and fees just to purchase something online? |
| 21:16.33 | synic | this guy can jump off a bridge |
| 21:17.43 | mheath | synic, What site are you trying to buy from? Escrow sites are really only appropriate for places like Ebay, and all the major auction sites have preffered escrow services (like paypal) anyway. |
| 21:19.17 | synic | I'm trying to buy from a person on craigslist. I wouldn't normally even think about it, but I know lots of people that can vouch for him. |
| 21:19.30 | atoponce | i need to know how to send CacheControl headers, if anyone can help |
| 21:19.45 | atoponce | with apache2, and not the <meta> tags |
| 21:19.59 | macnewbold | atoponce: are you using a programming language too? |
| 21:20.07 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.geekwisdom.com/dyn/cache-control2 |
| 21:20.18 | macnewbold | I know how to do it easily using PHP, but I've never touched mod_cache |
| 21:20.26 | atoponce | macnewbold: yes. python on django, which, is setup properl. |
| 21:20.47 | macnewbold | PHP has a header() function that lets you set your HTTP response headers |
| 21:20.55 | macnewbold | I bet python or django should have something similar |
| 21:21.07 | macnewbold | that's your ticket most likely, at least the easiest way to do it |
| 21:21.10 | mheath | By the way, would anyone be interested in shell accounts / web hosting / etc? |
| 21:21.24 | atoponce | macnewbold: yeah. we looked into that, and it seems to be fine |
| 21:21.46 | atoponce | yet, when looking at the HTTP headers that are sent, we're not getting what django says we should be |
| 21:22.10 | atoponce | so, apache is our next victim, thinking mod_cache might be the ticket |
| 21:24.04 | atoponce | ScytheBlade1: so, do i just <IfModule mod_cache.c> in apache2.conf? |
| 21:24.36 | atoponce | what i'm looking for is to keep the browser from caching the anything in the site at all |
| 21:25.29 | sjansen | Man, the plug server is freaky fast. |
| 21:25.59 | sjansen | 'Course, the only reason I notice is my server's not too shabby either. |
| 21:26.09 | sjansen | ~hug slicehost |
| 21:26.24 | ibot | ACTION sneaks up on slicehost and suddenly hugs slicehost tightly |
| 21:32.52 | Lone_Wanderer | levi: I finally got a response from my Dad to the email I wrote him this morning. |
| 21:33.06 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: About grad school stuff? |
| 21:33.18 | Lone_Wanderer | "I'm working with an undergraduate student to do a decision case right now -- he will have four publications and our case by the time he graduates." |
| 21:33.22 | Lone_Wanderer | About doing research as an undergrad. |
| 21:34.13 | levi | Nice. |
| 21:34.45 | levi | I wish I'd realized I wanted to go to grad school as an undergrad. |
| 21:35.18 | sjansen | I wish I'd not burned out as an undergrad. |
| 21:35.36 | mheath | Grad school sees like a jump-through-the-hoops game to me. |
| 21:35.55 | mheath | I'm not sure I want to do traditional college after going to a fast-paced technical school like here :( |
| 21:36.30 | mheath | However, I also am not sure I want to do a civilian technical college. Those aren't always looked at that favorably. |
| 21:36.34 | levi | mheath: What have you heard about grad school that makes you think that? |
| 21:37.02 | sjansen | http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SCOX&t=3m&l=on&z=m&q=l&c= |
| 21:37.17 | sjansen | If I'm reading that right, SCO is very close to being delisted. |
| 21:37.21 | mheath | levi: Just what you hear about the process of publications, research, funding, etc. |
| 21:37.33 | lukfugl | sjansen: now that's a chart I can get behind |
| 21:37.50 | lukfugl | how long do they have to stay under $1? |
| 21:38.16 | sjansen | 30 days plus some trial period after that |
| 21:38.23 | levi | mheath: Well, that part does require jumping through some hoops. But where else are you going to be able to dedicate several years to deep, exhaustive learning of a subject and breaking new ground? |
| 21:38.26 | sjansen | 10 days after, I think |
| 21:38.55 | sjansen | levi: Your rich Uncle's study. |
| 21:39.03 | mheath | levi: Thats the thing: I enjoy engineering things, but I'm not sure I want to jump through the hoops to become an Officially Qualified Engineer. |
| 21:39.06 | levi | sjansen: Well, that works if you've got a rich uncle. |
| 21:39.07 | mheath | I'm happy as a technician |
| 21:39.08 | lukfugl | sjansen: can I borrow your rich uncle? |
| 21:39.11 | sjansen | levi: Or solitary confinement on a remote tropic island. |
| 21:39.14 | mheath | And the training for a technicain seems far more practical |
| 21:39.21 | levi | sjansen: The resources there are a bit weak. |
| 21:39.27 | mheath | *technicain |
| 21:39.31 | mheath | grrr |
| 21:39.34 | mheath | *technician |
| 21:39.57 | levi | mheath: Technicians run stuff other people designed. If you're happy with that, then go for it. I always pegged you for a designer of things, though. |
| 21:40.00 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: You don't have to go to grad school to become an engineer. |
| 21:40.15 | sjansen | Obviously you'd have to spend most of your time performing theoretical exploration of a undiscovered topic. |
| 21:40.18 | Lone_Wanderer | But hey, if you're happy where you are, stick with it. |
| 21:40.31 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, probably not an option |
| 21:40.36 | sjansen | IIRC, the revolver was design in solitary |
| 21:40.44 | Lone_Wanderer | What do you mean mheath? What's not an option? |
| 21:40.48 | mheath | Which is disappointing. I'm happy here. |
| 21:40.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh. Well you can still go to regular college. |
| 21:41.12 | mheath | I'm doing very well (one of the top people in my class), I enjoy learning about what I'm learning about |
| 21:41.38 | Lone_Wanderer | If you do get the boot, your instructor might still be willing to write you a letter of recommendation or something. |
| 21:41.42 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, my main comment (along with the jump-through-hopes comment) is that I'm not sure I'd like a traditional college experience after going through the program here |
| 21:41.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Help you get into a civilian school doing the same kind of thing. |
| 21:42.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, have you ever gone to a traditional college? |
| 21:42.10 | sjansen | keybrd brken, mispllings not my falt |
| 21:42.10 | levi | mheath: There are tech schools designed to give fast-paced training to people who want to be technicians. |
| 21:42.35 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, no, but I doubt it can be fundamentally THAT different than highschool. Whereas the environment, curriculum, etc. here is insanely different than anything I ever experienced in highschool. |
| 21:42.49 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh man. |
| 21:42.55 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess it depends on the school you go to. |
| 21:43.07 | Lone_Wanderer | But it is so far from high school that making comparisons is difficult. |
| 21:43.10 | mheath | I went from being bored and disinterested in highschool to excelling but being extremely challenged here. |
| 21:43.27 | mheath | I get far more pride in doing well here, then I got from the busywork that highschool provided. |
| 21:43.38 | levi | The typical university is probably going to be a pretty different experience from your military technician training, but also pretty different from high school. |
| 21:43.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Just find the right university. |
| 21:43.52 | mheath | And I get far more pride from the demand for perfection that exists here, as oppoesd to my ability to 'slide by' in highschool without really even trying. |
| 21:43.58 | levi | And universities, tech schools, etc. vary a lot. |
| 21:44.00 | sjansen | In soviet russia, colleges don't teach you... uhm... you teach colleges? That can't be right. It doesn't sound funny enough. |
| 21:44.01 | Lone_Wanderer | If you really need the military aspect of it, join the ROTC as a non-comissioning student. |
| 21:44.14 | mheath | I am lazy. Thats just the way I am. But I thrive in an environment that forces me to be un-lazy. |
| 21:44.22 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, ...... |
| 21:44.39 | mheath | Hey, Uncle Sam! I just got kicked out of TWO branches of the military, before I was 18 |
| 21:44.52 | Lone_Wanderer | ROTC is just a set of classes you take. |
| 21:44.55 | mheath | How about you give me thousands of dollars so I can go to college, then try to get into the military again? |
| 21:45.15 | Lone_Wanderer | You don't get a scholarship unless you're going to get commissioned when you graduate. |
| 21:45.18 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, you have to be enrolled in the ROTC program, or trying to attain enrollment. |
| 21:45.24 | levi | mheath: If you need people to make you do stuff, I don't know what to tell you. |
| 21:45.46 | Lone_Wanderer | I was in ROTC at the Y. Trust me. |
| 21:46.11 | mrpull | mheath: how big is your trust fund? |
| 21:46.12 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, And I'm not talking about the military aspects |
| 21:46.40 | mheath | I'm talking about the academic challenges here. THe way the classes are structured. |
| 21:47.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Well then you don't even need the ROTC. |
| 21:47.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Just find a good uni. |
| 21:47.07 | mheath | levi: I'm not talking about motivatino to just _do_ something, I'm talking about the requirement for pefection, and the fact that work that is substandard in any way is unsat. |
| 21:47.30 | Lone_Wanderer | And I'm telling you that you can find that in a good university. |
| 21:47.38 | Lone_Wanderer | But you don't seem to be listening, or if you are, believing me. |
| 21:47.52 | Lone_Wanderer | Which is unusual, as I have attended two universities and you have not attended any. |
| 21:48.35 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, One could argue that I am attending a university now :) |
| 21:48.40 | mheath | this is all worth college credit |
| 21:48.44 | Lone_Wanderer | This is true. |
| 21:48.46 | levi | mheath: Yeah, a good university will really require you to stretch yourself. The demand for perfection probably won't be as great, but it will be very different from high school. |
| 21:50.38 | mheath | Or rather, thsi place is more akin to a technical college. |
| 21:50.38 | Lone_Wanderer | But, honestly, use your academic credentials from the place you are now to get into a respected, challenging university if you have to leave. |
| 21:50.38 | Lone_Wanderer | And you'll probably find some of the aspects there as well. |
| 21:50.38 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, I haven't been here for _that_ long, and I'm not sure I have access to that information |
| 21:50.39 | Lone_Wanderer | You couldn't get a transcript? |
| 21:50.47 | mheath | Not that expresses my academic preformance here well |
| 21:51.04 | Lone_Wanderer | I thought what you're doing counted as college credit? |
| 21:51.08 | mheath | The Navy has a generic simple transcript, a SMART transcript (no idea what the acronym stands for) |
| 21:51.30 | mheath | Its just a list of Navy trainings you have completed that some credit board recommends universities give credit for |
| 21:51.45 | mheath | It does not reflect grades/preformance (just successful course completion) |
| 21:52.00 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahh. |
| 21:52.03 | mheath | And I do not directly earn transferabble credits here - its up to a university if they want to accept credits or not |
| 21:52.15 | mheath | And a lot don't accept a lot of them |
| 21:52.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Right. |
| 21:52.25 | mheath | I can't blame them. Some of the credits are stupid. |
| 21:52.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, you could still ask your instructor for a letter. |
| 21:52.53 | Lone_Wanderer | If you're already on your way out, what's he going to do? |
| 21:53.23 | mheath | While I might be well deserving of credits in some basic circuit analysis classes, I'm also (according to my SMART transcript), elligible for credit in the operation of marine engines / propulsion systems |
| 21:53.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Are you? |
| 21:53.53 | mheath | Something I have no training in (Thats just based on my rank / job category....it says that people in this rank in this job category are elligible for this credit) |
| 21:54.00 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahh ok. |
| 21:54.31 | mheath | Yeah, I was thinking of getting some letters of recommendation |
| 21:54.47 | mheath | However, universities are still going to base their acceptance on my highschool GPA and ACT score |
| 21:54.48 | Lone_Wanderer | What platform is God of War II on? |
| 21:55.02 | Lone_Wanderer | That sucks. |
| 21:55.08 | levi | mheath: You got into the U of U |
| 21:55.21 | sjansen | The U is a good school. |
| 21:55.26 | levi | I'm sure you could challenge yourself there. |
| 21:55.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Go to the best school you can find, do a single semester of straight A's... |
| 21:55.41 | Lone_Wanderer | dude, if you can get into the U, what are you complaining about? |
| 21:55.44 | Lone_Wanderer | ~lart mheath |
| 21:55.44 | ibot | shoots mheath in his sleep |
| 21:55.54 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, I didn't complain about being unable to get into a good school |
| 21:56.10 | mheath | Your the one that started to suggest I get letters of recommendation, etc. before I said anything of the sort :P |
| 21:56.35 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, you were talking about being a slacker in high school. |
| 21:56.37 | ScytheBlade1 | You've been admitted to the U... use it. |
| 21:56.53 | ScytheBlade1 | That felt good. |
| 21:57.22 | mheath | If I do get discharged I'll probably end up working at Zions Bank Corp for a while first, before I start any school |
| 21:57.28 | mheath | My brothers going to get me a job there. |
| 21:57.32 | sjansen | Nah, go back to nature. Squat on some land in Montana. Hunt for your food. Write a book about how society is doomed. |
| 21:58.01 | findlay | ~wake ScytheBlade1 |
| 21:58.17 | ibot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on ScytheBlade1 and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 21:58.17 | mrpull | mheath: why are you giving up on the military again? |
| 21:58.21 | ScytheBlade1 | findlay, I'm awake! Barely. :) |
| 21:58.30 | findlay | welcome to morning |
| 21:58.31 | mheath | mrpull: Huh? Bad knee pain, I can't even succesfully complete a PFA run. |
| 21:58.58 | Lone_Wanderer | What's wrong with your knees? |
| 21:59.02 | mheath | mrpull: orthopedic doctor said that unless I respond really well to physical therapy, and I probably won't, I probably won't be elligible to stay in the Navy. |
| 21:59.09 | ScytheBlade1 | findlay, my morning was ruined when I was awoken at 1:30 AM to three of my brother's friends shouting rather loudly. Why they were over in the first place is beyond me. |
| 21:59.12 | mrpull | bummer. didn't you know you had bad knees before you signed up? |
| 21:59.12 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, Heh, endless number of things. |
| 21:59.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Well there's two "probablys" in there. |
| 21:59.17 | sjansen | mrpull: It's actually an embarrassing story involving a bucket of pink paint, a muskrat and a banana. It'd be more polite not to ask mheath for details. |
| 21:59.45 | mrpull | sjansen: i'm not known for my politeness (nor is mheath I suppose) |
| 21:59.50 | mheath | mrpull: I'd had knee issues in the past. I didn't know I had any truely chronic issues, really, that would manifest themselves again |
| 22:00.04 | mheath | mrpull: granted, I'd heard contradictory things from various doctors on the subject |
| 22:00.20 | mheath | And I really, really wanted to be back in the military. I kinda listened to the doctor whos opinion was best suited to that end,. |
| 22:01.08 | ScytheBlade1 | Luckily, if it ends badly, you have a backup: the U. |
| 22:01.30 | ScytheBlade1 | (But I may be biased in that thinking, as I'm currently attending there.. ;)) |
| 22:01.32 | Lone_Wanderer | truly, no e :p |
| 22:01.56 | mheath | I had some minor knee pain in boot camp |
| 22:02.00 | Lone_Wanderer | >.> |
| 22:02.10 | mheath | But pushed through it. Barely passed my final PFA there, despite it. |
| 22:02.21 | mheath | Its just kinda built up the point where I finally had to go see a doctor here |
| 22:02.37 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, get a new knee! Surgery solves everything. |
| 22:02.40 | mheath | Now I'm having trouble even with walking (a bit painful, have a bit of a limp), let alone running |
| 22:02.53 | mheath | ScytheBlade1, heh, I wish. They actually can fix a lot of injuries with surgery. |
| 22:03.29 | mheath | However, my issues are just a build of tiny irritation / pain / inflimation / _small_ injuries, all caused because my knee /joint is fundamentally / physically prone to having knee problems. |
| 22:03.53 | mrpull | i need a cookie |
| 22:04.05 | mheath | Hmm. I'm going to get a subway sandwhich tonight. Anyone have any suggestions? I always get sweet onion chicken terriyaki, and I kinda need a break from that. |
| 22:04.24 | lukfugl | mrpull: visit a web site. you'll get one |
| 22:04.26 | mheath | I have the U o U, and Zions Bank Corps |
| 22:04.38 | mheath | My brother said he could probably get me a 12/hr full time job there |
| 22:04.47 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, Zions Bancorp. ;) |
| 22:05.06 | lukfugl | no, ScytheBlade1, you're confused |
| 22:05.17 | mheath | ScytheBlade1, eh, whatever. |
| 22:05.19 | lukfugl | he means the militant wing of Zion's Bank |
| 22:05.24 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 22:05.45 | ScytheBlade1 | All I remember is doing a website for "Zions Bank" - and they insisted that instead of "Zions Bank Incorporated" it was "Zions Bancorp" |
| 22:05.48 | mheath | GAH, how did I do that?! |
| 22:05.49 | lukfugl | aka, the "collections department" |
| 22:06.16 | mheath | I was just wrong about the Bancorp vs Bank Corp., but I can't believe I did Corps |
| 22:06.24 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, I missed that |
| 22:06.37 | mheath | Force of habit, I guess, from doing so many things with "Corps" in the name. |
| 22:07.17 | mheath | heh, I really am willing to bet I'm the first person ever to be medically discharged from two branches of the military before they turn 18. |
| 22:07.19 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, if they have it, a foot long pastrami sandwich with american cheese on just the plain 'ol white bread, and some pepperoni. Lightly toasted. |
| 22:07.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Now I'm making myself hungry. |
| 22:07.46 | mheath | ScytheBlade1, Veggies on it? Lettuce, Tomato, etc? |
| 22:08.23 | mheath | And sauce? |
| 22:08.36 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, nah. The pepperoni actually runs you extra, to be honest. That said, the pastrami was a temporary promotion they had for *several months* over here, dunno if they would have it over there |
| 22:08.41 | ScytheBlade1 | I prefer plain stuff, though. |
| 22:09.12 | mheath | OK, off to subway. Be back in about 15 minutes or so. |
| 22:09.33 | lukfugl | american cheese, blech |
| 22:10.07 | ScytheBlade1 | + pepperoni. |
| 22:10.39 | mheath | lukfugl, I'm thinking I might substitute provolone for that :) |
| 22:10.43 | mheath | be right back |
| 22:10.51 | lukfugl | provolone++ |
| 22:11.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Crap, now I'm hungry. |
| 22:12.11 | Tene | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPxDw7ajfGE -- ridiculously cute |
| 22:15.08 | findlay | why does it have to be metube? |
| 22:15.12 | atoponce | ok. now that the military spam over, anyone got some time to help me with apache2? |
| 22:15.43 | findlay | atoponce: is it broken? |
| 22:16.07 | atoponce | findlay: i need to figure out how to send control-cache headers with the mod_cache module |
| 22:16.27 | findlay | never done it |
| 22:16.33 | findlay | the docs are nice :) |
| 22:16.36 | atoponce | i have the module loaded, and i think, configured properly, but, it's still sending the wrong headers |
| 22:16.48 | atoponce | yeah. i have an apache book on my desk too |
| 22:17.51 | atoponce | on debian, i have /etc/apache2/mods-available/cache.load in mods-enabled |
| 22:18.03 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: "Actually, the duck needs water to swallow her food - she's dipping her beak into the water to drink, not to feed the carp. It's probably very confusing having everything she tries to eat stolen by marauding koi ..." |
| 22:18.05 | atoponce | and, i have the appropriate config in mods-available also |
| 22:18.21 | atoponce | do i need to tell apache anything about cache.conf? |
| 22:18.26 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: yes, I know. |
| 22:18.34 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 22:18.39 | Lone_Wanderer | It is cute though :D |
| 22:25.55 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 22:30.31 | findlay | how do you tell grep to include newlines in /.*/? |
| 22:39.55 | mheath | man, I got my hopes up for pastrami :( |
| 22:40.53 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 22:40.55 | ScytheBlade1 | It was good stuff |
| 22:41.15 | maquis | findlay: [.\n]* |
| 22:41.17 | maquis | maybe? |
| 22:41.25 | maquis | that's a completely random guess, but... |
| 22:41.33 | maquis | i think [\s\S] works too |
| 22:41.36 | maquis | but i'm not certain |
| 22:41.52 | maquis | im' just vaguely recalling that learning perl had something about that |
| 22:41.56 | findlay | maquis: I thing you're right |
| 22:46.23 | mheath | And I thing you spelt Think wrong. |
| 22:53.16 | Lancep | any one here work for Bluehost? |
| 22:54.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Turing incomplete means that a computer will never be able to solve the problem, right? |
| 22:55.23 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@128.187.189.236) |
| 22:58.00 | macnewbold | Lone_Wanderer: not quite - turing complete is a good thing, it means basically that a computing system is capable of full general purpose programmability |
| 23:00.21 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 23:13.19 | *** part/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@pollux.northsky.com) |