| 00:01.20 | elg | levi: yeah, I'm very excited about binary pattern matching |
| 00:01.41 | elg | btw, I read somewhere on the web that erlang has "yecc" which is like yacc |
| 00:01.47 | levi | Yeah. |
| 00:01.56 | levi | I came across that, too. |
| 00:02.00 | levi | Have you seen cean? |
| 00:02.02 | ScytheBlade1 | That's not good |
| 00:02.10 | ScytheBlade1 | ls: cannot access /var/log/emerge.log: Permission denied |
| 00:02.12 | levi | cpan-for-erlang, basically. |
| 00:02.13 | ScytheBlade1 | err |
| 00:02.15 | ScytheBlade1 | sh: /usr/bin/sudo: Input/output error |
| 00:02.25 | ScytheBlade1 | Awesome, my HD is dying |
| 00:02.25 | ScytheBlade1 | .. |
| 00:02.59 | elg | ya, saw it |
| 00:03.18 | levi | Poof. |
| 00:04.26 | elg | he probably just filled it up |
| 00:04.32 | elg | and panicked |
| 00:04.45 | levi | Yeah, not too hard to do with gentoo. |
| 00:04.54 | levi | I really got to hate gentoo after using it for a while. |
| 00:06.05 | *** join/#utah SB1-Laptop (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 00:06.19 | SB1-Laptop | "HDD SMART status bad; hard disk failure expected" |
| 00:06.21 | SB1-Laptop | :( |
| 00:06.51 | QBFreak | whee |
| 00:08.10 | elg | too bad. we figured gentoo had just filled your drive up |
| 00:09.06 | SB1-Laptop | lol |
| 00:09.09 | SB1-Laptop | It's a 500GB drive |
| 00:09.13 | SB1-Laptop | Two of them actualy |
| 00:09.20 | SB1-Laptop | Only one is dead/dying though |
| 00:09.57 | QBFreak | that sounds too young to die |
| 00:10.04 | SB1-Laptop | It's brand new |
| 00:10.32 | SB1-Laptop | lol |
| 00:10.47 | SB1-Laptop | it's literally brand new |
| 00:10.50 | SB1-Laptop | Combine I'm using maybe 100GB total |
| 00:10.53 | QBFreak | that sucks |
| 00:11.02 | SB1-Laptop | I'll just copy the dying HD to the living HD |
| 00:11.06 | SB1-Laptop | RMA the dead one |
| 00:11.16 | QBFreak | thats the advantage to it being brand new :) |
| 00:11.29 | SB1-Laptop | I use newegg anyways |
| 00:11.31 | QBFreak | if my old 40MB is dead, there's no RMAing that one :( |
| 00:11.40 | SB1-Laptop | I've got I think 2 years to RMA the drive at any time, no questions asked |
| 00:11.45 | QBFreak | thats about the only place I'll shop :) |
| 00:12.01 | levi | I love reading blogs about SIGCSE. |
| 00:12.11 | levi | SIGCSE conferences, that is. |
| 00:15.02 | SB1-Laptop | Oy, what the heck |
| 00:15.09 | SB1-Laptop | The dead drive has 111GB stored on it |
| 00:21.55 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@209.210.190.233) |
| 00:22.55 | SB1-Laptop | Hmm the 80GB windows image probably has something to do with it |
| 00:24.46 | vontrapp | probably |
| 00:27.47 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 00:29.06 | beandog | ? |
| 00:29.10 | beandog | vontrapp: what you mean |
| 00:29.23 | elg | you mean like xmms /av/music? |
| 00:29.39 | beandog | yah |
| 00:29.58 | vontrapp | elg, that stops the musc |
| 00:30.19 | elg | i think there's a command line to just add it to the playlist |
| 00:30.23 | elg | option that is |
| 00:30.48 | vontrapp | yeah, there is, but then i have to type out the whole path i want |
| 00:30.58 | vontrapp | and then the playlist isn't in order anymore |
| 00:31.03 | vontrapp | it's just a pain |
| 00:32.27 | Lone_Wanderer | The Perl motto is repeated way too often. |
| 00:32.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Someone needs to make a language whose motto is "Simple things are done already, and hard things are easy." |
| 00:32.52 | vontrapp | DWIM or WYMIWYG |
| 00:32.59 | vontrapp | oh, that one |
| 00:33.20 | Lone_Wanderer | Or maybe just "Everything is done already. Go home and have a beer, or soda if you're Mormon, Muslim, or a teetotaler." |
| 00:33.56 | vontrapp | as long as i still get paid |
| 00:34.08 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, Hmm. |
| 00:34.14 | mheath | java, maybe? :) |
| 00:34.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, you just play nethack all day and collect your paycheck. |
| 00:35.04 | vontrapp | actually, i don't even care if i get paid, as long as i can live and eat (and my family, too, of course) |
| 00:35.26 | mheath | Which is why I'm putting up with how much my job sucks right now. |
| 00:35.27 | vontrapp | sounds good to me |
| 00:35.42 | vontrapp | sign me up |
| 00:35.43 | mheath | 1.5 years of horrible training, 4.5 years of doable time in the fleet, and I'll be set for life. |
| 00:36.00 | mheath | Able to easily get a very good job, in tons of fields. |
| 00:36.28 | vontrapp | and you won't even be as old then as i am now |
| 00:36.38 | vontrapp | :( |
| 00:36.43 | mheath | Yep |
| 00:36.49 | mheath | 23 years old, I'll be out of the Navy |
| 00:36.50 | Lone_Wanderer | how old are you vontrapp? |
| 00:36.58 | mheath | Able to easily get a job starting at $80,000. |
| 00:37.01 | vontrapp | 25 |
| 00:37.06 | Lone_Wanderer | OMGSOOLD |
| 00:37.13 | Lone_Wanderer | You have a cemetary plot picked out yet? |
| 00:37.18 | vontrapp | oh shush, elg is older |
| 00:37.19 | mheath | I'll have a bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering already, too (Hopefully) |
| 00:37.25 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm 28 ;) |
| 00:37.43 | vontrapp | oh shush, Lone_Wanderer is older |
| 00:37.44 | mheath | I come out of here a few credits short of a degree in some Nuclear Engineering Technology degree |
| 00:37.49 | mheath | And taht depends on what college I go to |
| 00:38.00 | mheath | Most mainstream, real, major universities won't accept all of the military credits |
| 00:38.24 | mheath | But I want to put in the extra effort and get a good degree from a reputable university. |
| 00:38.57 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, Sorry. It really is all I'm holding onto right now, because the classes here REALLY suck and I am starting to ask myself why I'm here. |
| 00:39.18 | Lone_Wanderer | gotcha |
| 00:39.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Try Zen meditation. |
| 00:39.30 | vontrapp | my classes really suck |
| 00:39.50 | Lone_Wanderer | No, you've got it wrong already. They don't suck, nor are they enjoyable. They just are. |
| 00:40.02 | Lone_Wanderer | try reading some urbanmonk.livejournal.com |
| 00:40.19 | vontrapp | hmm, maybe that could work with my grades |
| 00:40.29 | vontrapp | my grades don't suck, nor are they poor, they just are |
| 00:40.38 | vontrapp | hey! i feel better already! |
| 00:40.43 | Lone_Wanderer | lol. "These D's? They aren't poor grades." |
| 00:40.52 | mheath | vontrapp, at least you don't get into the kind of trouble I do for poor grades. |
| 00:41.04 | Lone_Wanderer | I think it's meant to be applied to how you feel, rather than your performance in various aspects. |
| 00:41.08 | brac | I think the Montreal game was much better than your hypothetical professional C programmer should know the "frank sorenson" who's always posting lots of mixes, of course. |
| 00:41.20 | vontrapp | i could end up in some pretty dire financial straights for poor grades |
| 00:41.28 | mheath | I mismarked one of my questions |
| 00:41.39 | Lone_Wanderer | i.e. "I am in pain. This is not a bad thing, it just is." Rather than "Wah wah, my girlfriend left me, this is so horrible" |
| 00:41.41 | mheath | Marked it as correct, when it was incorrect |
| 00:42.04 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: Well now you know not to do that, right? :p |
| 00:42.07 | mheath | Wasn't even my fault - I'd been to see the Night Duty Instructor, who helped me with the problem, and told me my final solution was correct. I didn't bother to go and check it against the key. |
| 00:42.20 | mheath | I got yelled at for 15 minutes |
| 00:42.24 | Lone_Wanderer | How is that not your fault? |
| 00:42.50 | Lone_Wanderer | If Some Guy tells you that the (thing) is (something) correct, and it's being wrong could blow up the ship, are you going to not bother to check? |
| 00:43.03 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer, "Some Guy" is an instructor. |
| 00:43.05 | Lone_Wanderer | ESPECIALLY if it's your job, and not his, to check it. |
| 00:43.15 | Lone_Wanderer | So? It's not his job to check it against the key, it's yours. |
| 00:43.30 | Lone_Wanderer | You took the word of someone else and neglected to do YOUR JOB for it. |
| 00:44.26 | mheath | My basic electricity is driving me insane. And I'm going to have to start putting in way more study time than I have been |
| 00:44.51 | mheath | Because apparently the instructor wants word-for-word memorization of whats in the book. Anything short of that in the answers and he makes you resubmit it. |
| 00:45.23 | vontrapp | well, that makes it easy, just copy from the book to your answers |
| 00:45.28 | Lone_Wanderer | Again, you're in the military. Quitcher bitchin. |
| 00:45.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Not that I don't sympathize. That's lame. |
| 00:46.41 | Lone_Wanderer | Anyway, home time. Later. |
| 00:48.25 | vontrapp | oops, /me entered 'vontrapp' as username in route y |
| 00:55.10 | vontrapp | it's too painful :( |
| 00:56.06 | levi | Well, it's now time for me to go home and work on homework. |
| 00:57.31 | vontrapp | they run just not quite fast enough in vmware |
| 00:59.31 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=xbmodder@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 01:02.11 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 01:21.35 | elg | grr. why is nmblookup not working for this one host? |
| 01:25.35 | mheath | Does anyone have any recommendations for a cheap/lower end digital camera and place to buy one at? |
| 01:25.43 | mheath | I'm looking to spend about $200-$250 |
| 01:28.05 | mheath | Can anyone comment on Nikon Coolpix's? |
| 01:28.22 | goozbach | mheath: pentax optio-WP |
| 01:28.29 | goozbach | it's WATERPROOF! |
| 01:28.40 | goozbach | like under water, waterproof |
| 01:28.47 | goozbach | and 5mega pixel |
| 01:28.47 | mheath | I've worked with some higher end (non-digital) Nikon SLRs, which are obviously very nice...not sure what to think of Coolpix |
| 01:29.14 | mheath | Or canon powershots... |
| 01:29.28 | mheath | goozbach, heh, not planning to shoot underwater any time soon :) |
| 01:29.42 | SB1-Laptop | Plan for the future! |
| 01:32.10 | mheath | goozbach, Does Pentax make good low-range digital cameras? |
| 01:40.51 | mheath | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16830113021 <-- I really like that. Any comments? |
| 01:54.58 | elg | optical zoom 10x is great. digital zoom is a gimmick |
| 01:55.04 | elg | you can digital zoom with gimp later if you want |
| 01:55.59 | mheath | Yeah. |
| 01:56.20 | mheath | I just realized though they're out of the recertified ones |
| 01:56.25 | mheath | and the new ones cost $100 more |
| 01:56.30 | elg | AA is good |
| 01:57.24 | *** join/#utah ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 01:58.40 | elg | no viewfinder? |
| 01:59.05 | mheath | oh, wow. |
| 01:59.08 | mheath | Completely overlooked that |
| 02:00.18 | mheath | haha |
| 02:00.19 | mheath | What do you think of this domain: confusedbits.com |
| 02:01.31 | QBFreak | nah, I'm too nice for that, sounds interesting though |
| 02:04.42 | elg | i like counfoundbit better |
| 03:07.08 | findlay | hello |
| 03:09.32 | *** join/#utah brailsmt (n=brailsmt@c-69-242-149-79.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) |
| 03:09.32 | levi_home | Hello. |
| 03:10.00 | brailsmt | oh nice, no privmsgs unless registered... when was that crap put in place? |
| 03:10.19 | brailsmt | anyway, not while i came... |
| 03:10.21 | synic | a looooong time ago |
| 03:10.38 | brailsmt | shows how long I've been away from irc |
| 03:11.43 | QBFreak | not all networks work that way |
| 03:12.07 | brailsmt | i know, i just have not logged on in about 3 years |
| 03:12.17 | brailsmt | before that I was quite the regular |
| 03:12.30 | findlay | so, guess what I get to do this spring break? |
| 03:12.37 | QBFreak | fix someone's computer? |
| 03:12.41 | QBFreak | (s) |
| 03:12.44 | brailsmt | go to the moon? |
| 03:12.47 | QBFreak | homework? |
| 03:12.53 | brailsmt | pick lint from your belly button? |
| 03:13.02 | QBFreak | throw cheese at people? |
| 03:13.07 | findlay | all of those and more ... |
| 03:13.12 | brailsmt | sweet!!! |
| 03:13.17 | QBFreak | save me some cheese |
| 03:13.31 | findlay | my muffler rusted itself apart |
| 03:14.05 | findlay | so tonight I put on the new one, which involved lots of cutting and prying of rusty metal in the dark |
| 03:14.05 | brailsmt | guess what i get to do this spring break, oh wait, I don't go to school anymore... :( |
| 03:14.38 | findlay | but when it was on and I turned on the engine I could still hear the left head |
| 03:14.49 | findlay | like I was running open headers |
| 03:15.03 | brailsmt | did byu win tonight? |
| 03:15.06 | findlay | so I took a flashlight and guess what was under the head? |
| 03:15.19 | synic | cheese? |
| 03:15.36 | findlay | a crack wide enough for a rat to jump into the cylinder! |
| 03:16.08 | brailsmt | did you find the rat? |
| 03:16.10 | brailsmt | :) |
| 03:16.28 | findlay | no, it's still on the loose. But you better believe it's in big trouble |
| 03:17.27 | levi_home | Mmm, Ghirardelli squares. |
| 03:17.47 | brailsmt | we had a team dodgeball tournament after work tonight... my arm is killing me... |
| 03:18.52 | brailsmt | just remember the 5 D's of dodgeball... Dodge, Dive, Dip, Duck... |
| 03:18.56 | brailsmt | ...and Dodge |
| 03:19.24 | brailsmt | w00t looks like BYU is spaking the pokes |
| 03:19.30 | findlay | not Dwell? |
| 03:19.31 | brailsmt | err... spanking |
| 03:19.52 | brailsmt | that was a reference to Dodgeball (the movie) |
| 03:19.54 | brailsmt | :) |
| 03:22.00 | findlay | man, I hope I can do it all in a week |
| 03:22.09 | findlay | I've got lots of other stuff to do |
| 03:22.10 | brailsmt | anyway, I'm looking for some small programming projects to work on at home... I'm just drawing blanks when it comes to ideas, or i think of incredibly complex ones like C/C++ static code analysis, code coverage, window manager, toy programming language, etc... |
| 03:22.19 | brailsmt | any ideas? |
| 03:22.54 | findlay | you could play around with parrot |
| 03:23.29 | levi_home | Learn Erlang with me and elg. |
| 03:23.34 | brailsmt | yeah, but i'd prefer to do it in C/C++, maybe i'd pick up lisp or something, or haskell or erlang or something... |
| 03:23.37 | findlay | Dwimmer |
| 03:23.59 | brailsmt | elg == hans, right? |
| 03:24.02 | levi_home | Yes. |
| 03:24.15 | brailsmt | he morphs usernames quite a bit :) or used to |
| 03:24.15 | findlay | Dimerendesvousesly |
| 03:24.32 | levi_home | He's been elg and hans now for quite a while. |
| 03:24.50 | brailsmt | he used to be butterbur or something else too... |
| 03:25.08 | brailsmt | anyway :) |
| 03:25.29 | brailsmt | maybe i could write a C++ parser in lisp |
| 03:25.37 | brailsmt | dang, there goes the ultra complex again... |
| 03:26.06 | brailsmt | parrot == perl6 VM-thingy, right? |
| 03:26.26 | brailsmt | parrot & perl6 == duke nukem forever |
| 03:26.29 | brailsmt | :D |
| 03:31.26 | brailsmt | i could always work on my bzflag project... |
| 03:31.37 | brailsmt | ...that being playing it |
| 03:33.07 | QBFreak | you could clean up some my mozbot SVN module... |
| 03:33.11 | QBFreak | -some |
| 03:34.43 | brailsmt | svn, sounds yummy... cleaning up someone else code == what I do day in and day out... |
| 03:35.07 | brailsmt | anyone ever play muds anymore? |
| 03:35.18 | findlay | anybody want to help me with my head gaskets? :) |
| 03:35.29 | brailsmt | maybe i could resurrect my tradewars clone... |
| 03:35.32 | findlay | how about that brailsmt :) |
| 03:35.48 | brailsmt | findlay: unlikely, i live in Kansas City, Missouri now :) |
| 03:36.11 | findlay | I'll give you a lecture on the virtues of Schubert's symphonies |
| 03:36.24 | brailsmt | ohhh... no thanks... |
| 03:36.46 | brailsmt | i'l bring some evil angry music with me then... |
| 03:37.07 | findlay | there's no music better for working on the car than Mozart or Bach |
| 03:37.34 | brailsmt | i guess thats highly individual... |
| 03:38.08 | QBFreak | brailsmt: I'm on a MARE, same difference |
| 03:38.21 | findlay | no way |
| 03:38.28 | brailsmt | MARE? |
| 03:38.29 | findlay | it's good stuff |
| 03:38.34 | findlay | it's calming |
| 03:38.54 | brailsmt | QBFreak: what is a MARE? |
| 03:38.55 | QBFreak | Multi-user Adventure Roleplaying Epic |
| 03:39.04 | brailsmt | text based? |
| 03:39.08 | QBFreak | yup |
| 03:39.33 | brailsmt | ever played tradewars 2000? |
| 03:39.43 | levi_home | Who hasn't? ;) |
| 03:39.54 | findlay | me |
| 03:40.04 | QBFreak | nope, I got into MAREs from the Sluggy Freelance community (webcomic) |
| 03:40.05 | brailsmt | i played on a 1200 bps modem... |
| 03:40.13 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@209.210.190.233) |
| 03:40.17 | brailsmt | i could read faster then the words printed :) |
| 03:40.21 | QBFreak | heh |
| 03:40.43 | brailsmt | on an 8088 with a turbo button!!! |
| 03:40.57 | findlay | nice |
| 03:40.59 | brailsmt | made the computer go from 8MHz to 12 MHz |
| 03:41.09 | brailsmt | and a 20 MB harddrive |
| 03:41.10 | findlay | I wish my computer had a turbo button |
| 03:41.11 | brailsmt | lol |
| 03:41.14 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@209.210.190.233) |
| 03:41.16 | QBFreak | I missed out on all those fun days |
| 03:41.28 | QBFreak | but I have an 8088 now... |
| 03:41.29 | brailsmt | i was prepubescent back then... |
| 03:42.12 | brailsmt | my mom would only let me play if I woke up early in the morning... which is the only time in my life I woke up volutarily at 4:30 AM |
| 03:42.24 | QBFreak | hehe |
| 03:42.28 | levi_home | Heh. |
| 03:42.36 | QBFreak | I don't know how up to date this is anymore, but http://mare.qbfreak.net/Mare/ListOfMAREs |
| 03:43.41 | brailsmt | webased? or client? or telnet? |
| 03:43.44 | QBFreak | it looks like I'm currently connected to five of those :) |
| 03:44.01 | QBFreak | you can use telnet, but it can get frustrating to lack an edit line |
| 03:44.11 | brailsmt | you use a helper |
| 03:44.12 | QBFreak | I believe The Mud Connector has a web client |
| 03:44.18 | findlay | I can get a laptop from newegg preloaded with vista home basic or basically the same machine from system76 without the microsoft tax. Which should I get? |
| 03:44.25 | brailsmt | wtf is the mud connector? |
| 03:44.32 | levi_home | Heh, MARE. |
| 03:44.34 | QBFreak | personally I use TinyFugue although for windows MUSHclient is pretty good |
| 03:44.37 | QBFreak | one sec, its a website |
| 03:44.47 | findlay | or, what's are imaginitive things that can be done with a vista cd? |
| 03:45.18 | findlay | s/*/*/g |
| 03:45.26 | findlay | hm |
| 03:45.26 | QBFreak | http://www.mudconnect.com/ |
| 03:45.26 | levi_home | findlay: It can be handy to have Vista available in a VM or something. |
| 03:45.27 | brac | [Mudconnect.Com : The Mud Connector - Online Gaming Compilation |
| 03:45.30 | brac | |
| 03:45.35 | findlay | hehe |
| 03:45.37 | QBFreak | ack! |
| 03:45.38 | brac | |
| 03:45.40 | levi_home | Ugh. |
| 03:45.42 | QBFreak | brac: shut up |
| 03:45.42 | brac | |
| 03:45.43 | findlay | lols |
| 03:45.45 | brac | mud muds mudlist game games mmorpg roleplaying roleplay rpg moo muse muck mush lpmud reviews] |
| 03:46.09 | findlay | QBFreak: what have you done to brac? (: |
| 03:46.22 | brailsmt | looks like some bot is fracked up |
| 03:46.30 | QBFreak | just using him to learn what to never paste to my own bot... :) |
| 03:46.34 | brailsmt | lol |
| 03:46.35 | elg | lol |
| 03:46.45 | elg | no, he just grabs the title |
| 03:46.48 | QBFreak | that seriously is their page title, that sucks |
| 03:46.50 | elg | of whatever html links |
| 03:47.13 | elg | yup, it's me. I forgot all about being butterbur |
| 03:47.15 | elg | that was fun |
| 03:47.35 | levi_home | That's a screwed up title. |
| 03:47.39 | elg | you could write an RTP proxy in erlang |
| 03:47.46 | brac | you could argue that the designers used to upgrade a generation older |
| 03:47.50 | elg | all the hip kids are learning erlang |
| 03:47.54 | findlay | that is some title |
| 03:48.01 | brailsmt | RTP? |
| 03:48.06 | elg | for VOIP |
| 03:48.10 | QBFreak | brailsmt: there's a link to the client on the right side, hard to find |
| 03:48.16 | elg | SIP has issues with NAT (what doesn't?) |
| 03:48.27 | QBFreak | but then you have to scroll through the insanely long list to find SluggyMARE |
| 03:48.27 | brailsmt | i need to install wtf |
| 03:48.30 | elg | and one way to fix it that works pretty well is an RTP proxy - it just forwards packets |
| 03:48.34 | findlay | I have issues with NAT |
| 03:48.44 | elg | it might modify them slightly, but not very much |
| 03:48.45 | brailsmt | [brailsmt]$ wtf RTP |
| 03:48.45 | brailsmt | RTP: nothing appropriate |
| 03:49.01 | elg | there's a python one that works well but doesn't scale well enough |
| 03:49.07 | elg | asterisk scales better than it does |
| 03:49.14 | elg | and it's like 3k loc |
| 03:49.35 | elg | I'm thinking, it can't be that complicated to read packets on one interface and spit them out the other |
| 03:50.01 | elg | erlang is distributed, a load of fun for doing network protocols, and reasonably fast |
| 03:50.04 | elg | seems like a good match |
| 03:50.19 | elg | Here's how you break up a network packet in erlang |
| 03:50.47 | elg | <<Foo:13, Bar:2, Baz:1, Quux:16>> = packet |
| 03:51.14 | elg | the Foo, Bar, Baz, and Quux have the appropriate values extracted from the packet (of that many bits) |
| 03:51.24 | brailsmt | i'll learn python when i have a compelling reason... knowing perl and ruby makes that unlikely... |
| 03:51.41 | elg | ditto |
| 03:51.49 | findlay | brailsmt: you could learn python in about 5 days |
| 03:51.51 | brailsmt | </random assertion> |
| 03:52.06 | elg | 5 > 0 |
| 03:52.15 | QBFreak | elg: are you sure? |
| 03:52.16 | findlay | 0 > -5 |
| 03:52.20 | brailsmt | i have no desire to learn a language where whitespace is significant, sorry, i'm pretty fixed on that |
| 03:52.46 | brailsmt | of course, if a paycheck was attached... well that would be a compelling reason... |
| 03:52.53 | findlay | brailsmt: it's not about the whitespace, it's the indentation that has to be consistent |
| 03:52.56 | brailsmt | its the reason i learned perl :) |
| 03:53.16 | findlay | it suprisingly hasn't annoyed me that much |
| 03:53.31 | elg | it's the reason I'm grading Linked List projects written in Java this weekend |
| 03:53.33 | findlay | since I'm pretty fastidious about my code layout anyway |
| 03:53.36 | brailsmt | findlay: i know, i have participated in many a perl v. ruby v. python (pick any two or all three) flamewars to know the arguments both pro and con :) |
| 03:54.12 | brailsmt | and python just isn't compelling to me, sorry... |
| 03:54.22 | elg | all the snakes are asleep right now |
| 03:54.25 | elg | too cold for them I think |
| 03:54.30 | levi_home | Heh. |
| 03:54.36 | brailsmt | my shell scripting-fu coupled with perl solves about 99% of all real world issues I need to solve :) |
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| 03:55.59 | findlay | well, I never had any real desire to learn python myself until I had to for work |
| 03:55.59 | brailsmt | same goes for perl with me |
| 03:55.59 | findlay | it's an easy language to earn and to use |
| 03:55.59 | levi_home | I kind of like Python, but I haven't had any need to use it in a while. |
| 03:55.59 | elg | brailsmt: have you seen erlang: the movie? |
| 03:55.59 | findlay | easier to use than perl :) |
| 03:55.59 | levi_home | elg: Have you seen the Python movie? |
| 03:55.59 | brailsmt | when i graduated, I swore up one wall and down another, that I would NEVER program with perl... |
| 03:56.10 | levi_home | brailsmt: Never say never. :) |
| 03:56.10 | elg | no, i haven't. i've heard it's camp |
| 03:56.10 | elg | are the actors british? I have a weekness for british camp |
| 03:56.10 | levi_home | elg: Very. |
| 03:56.13 | brailsmt | then the only job available at the time was programming perl cgis, two of my least favorite things :) |
| 03:56.17 | elg | but otherwise it annoys me |
| 03:56.18 | levi_home | elg: Nope, not british. |
| 03:56.32 | findlay | brailsmt: same with me |
| 03:56.32 | brailsmt | elg: no |
| 03:56.41 | elg | american camp is so... flat |
| 03:56.43 | findlay | except perl was already my language of choice |
| 03:56.52 | brailsmt | so needless to say, I'm pretty good with perl nowadays... |
| 03:56.52 | elg | brailsmt: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5830318882717959520 |
| 03:56.58 | levi_home | perl is icky. |
| 03:57.01 | elg | makes me wish we had done VMAC: the movie |
| 03:57.12 | brailsmt | elg: i hear you :) |
| 03:57.22 | brailsmt | i tried perl OO once... |
| 03:57.27 | elg | watch it. it's hilarious. now imagine bjarne being baxer |
| 03:57.28 | brailsmt | it was once too many |
| 03:57.29 | elg | er, baxter |
| 03:57.41 | elg | or the mike guy |
| 03:57.51 | brailsmt | the whole world seems darker now that I tried OO perl... |
| 03:58.02 | elg | heh |
| 03:58.09 | elg | you're lucky you didnt' create a singularity |
| 03:58.13 | levi_home | brailsmt: How could spreading so many 'bless'ings make the world seem dark?! |
| 03:58.26 | brailsmt | levi_home: hah, EASY!!! |
| 03:58.52 | brailsmt | each one blots out the light a little more |
| 03:59.09 | brailsmt | i really hated that job, BTW |
| 03:59.39 | brailsmt | i even had to rewrite a 1500 line perl script in korn shell... |
| 03:59.47 | brailsmt | wheee.... |
| 03:59.49 | levi_home | Ow. |
| 03:59.52 | levi_home | Why would you do that?! |
| 03:59.57 | brailsmt | the shell script ended up at 1000 lines |
| 04:00.11 | brailsmt | the perl code was crap... |
| 04:00.36 | levi_home | Sure, but perl code doesn't /have/ to be crap. |
| 04:00.40 | brailsmt | the hashes where particularly tasty to do in shell script |
| 04:01.28 | elg | man, that sounds not one bit fun |
| 04:01.37 | elg | sometimes I try to write nontrivial shell scripts |
| 04:01.48 | elg | then I remember why I haven't written many nontrivial shell scripts |
| 04:01.49 | brailsmt | with the right mix of grep, temp files and sed, it wasn't too bad :) |
| 04:01.53 | levi_home | Shell script is even uglier than perl when you write nontrivial programs with it. |
| 04:02.51 | brailsmt | the need is that this application had to be installed on 1000s of servers, each of different unix distros, some ancient enough to not have perl... the lowest common denominator was ksh |
| 04:03.08 | levi_home | Heh. |
| 04:03.12 | findlay | ouch |
| 04:04.12 | brailsmt | imagine all the servers Sprint has in at all its switching sites... each on is running my ksh script :) |
| 04:04.14 | elg | i like unix, but ancient unix belongs in a grave |
| 04:04.49 | levi_home | I will happily usher all unix to the grave when something clearly better comes along. |
| 04:05.07 | brailsmt | i have to use OpenVMS at work... |
| 04:05.08 | elg | speaking of which, vista is not it |
| 04:05.13 | brailsmt | *that* OS sucks |
| 04:05.22 | levi_home | brailsmt: Why do you say so? |
| 04:05.29 | elg | I installed it in vmware the other day because school let me d/l it free |
| 04:05.49 | elg | i haven't used it much (couldn't think of anything to do once it was installed) |
| 04:05.52 | brailsmt | levi_home: it is horrid in just about every way |
| 04:05.58 | elg | it ships with nice backgrounds |
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| 04:06.05 | elg | and it does look nicer than xp |
| 04:06.09 | elg | or w2k, etc. |
| 04:06.16 | levi_home | brailsmt: I've heard otherwise. |
| 04:06.16 | brailsmt | levi_home: the only nice thing about it is that the debugger has this nice multiwindow display |
| 04:06.17 | QBFreak | elg: but they cut the bottom of the start button off! |
| 04:06.23 | brailsmt | levi_home: have you used it? |
| 04:06.26 | elg | but it doesn't look *that* nice, certainly not as nice as os x |
| 04:06.34 | elg | the fonts still have issues |
| 04:06.35 | QBFreak | which annoys me greatly |
| 04:06.48 | elg | they're still not very readable even when rendered properly |
| 04:06.55 | levi_home | brailsmt: No, but you haven't given me much reason to believe you over the other things I've heard. |
| 04:06.58 | brailsmt | vista looks like a nice KDE or Gnome desktop |
| 04:07.29 | brailsmt | levi_home: such as? |
| 04:08.01 | elg | i don't mind the start button - it's as unusable as the old one, no worse |
| 04:08.01 | brac | i don't have to work that doesn't support the ideal client is connecting too |
| 04:08.01 | brailsmt | levi_home: how about for the same hardware cost, the applications run consistently 20% slower with 10% more RAM then AIX or HPUX |
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| 04:08.05 | elg | it didn't ask me "allow or deny" as often as I expected, but it did ask a lot. No less than 20 times during the vmware tools install |
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| 04:08.49 | brailsmt | levi_home: MQ Series is poorly supported and is fragile on VMS, whereas its rock solid and lean on AIX and HPUX |
| 04:08.49 | QBFreak | I have an app I wrote that can't seem to access HKLM in Vista unless you explicitly run it as admin |
| 04:08.50 | brailsmt | levi_home: oracle is droping support for VMS |
| 04:09.13 | brailsmt | levi_home: as are most vendors i know of... |
| 04:10.43 | levi_home | brailsmt: The things I heard were more along the lines of low-level things like signal handling, exception handling, utility APIs, etc. |
| 04:11.14 | findlay | so would you say OSX is unix or not? |
| 04:11.39 | levi_home | brailsmt: I don't care about application support and that sort of thing. VMS is clearly dead in that respect. |
| 04:12.51 | levi_home | findlay: It's unix enough for me. |
| 04:12.55 | elg | ditto |
| 04:13.04 | elg | and it's as close to linux as a lot of ancient unixes |
| 04:13.12 | elg | at least as close |
| 04:15.26 | levi_home | Here's an example of the sorts of good things I've heard about VMS: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.os.development/msg/ab24e4083b55295b |
| 04:17.14 | brailsmt | levi_home: socket programming is purely a set of callbacks called ASTs |
| 04:17.53 | levi_home | brailsmt: Are you saying that's a bad thing? |
| 04:18.15 | brailsmt | levi_home: which are not very couterintuitive, looping to listen on a socket consists of registering an AST, processing the message, and then reregistering the AST before returning, that is odd |
| 04:19.15 | levi_home | Doesn't sound too odd to me. |
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| 04:19.32 | brailsmt | i am not saying while(1) { select() } is perfect, it isn't, but it clearly creates simpler code than ASTs |
| 04:20.13 | brailsmt | anyway, I don't have to convince you, until you have used it daily for a year, you just won't get it... |
| 04:21.20 | elg | qnx is a neat system, and I can't think of a better system for doing realtime work |
| 04:21.46 | levi_home | brailsmt: Clearly your opinion of VMS is not universal. |
| 04:23.41 | levi_home | elg: What did you like about it? |
| 04:23.55 | elg | in a word, message passing |
| 04:23.59 | elg | i guess that's two words |
| 04:24.09 | levi_home | Sounds good already. |
| 04:24.27 | findlay | why didn't they call it note passing? |
| 04:24.27 | elg | it's a microkernel system too, which is really nice for the sort of thing you're likely to do on it (i.e. driver or pseudo-driver development) |
| 04:24.48 | brailsmt | i agree with elg |
| 04:24.59 | levi_home | Yeah, developing device drivers for embedded linux is kind of a pain. |
| 04:24.59 | elg | and although it's very different from traditional unix under the hood, it's unix-y so you're comfortable |
| 04:26.04 | elg | there's a free-beer download for noncommercial use, iirc |
| 04:26.10 | elg | you might give it a look sometime |
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| 04:26.15 | brailsmt | levi_home: fine, be that way, i don't really care... i know the universal sentiment where I work, where we maintain the exact same code base for both Unix and VMS... I see daily which system promotes better code, I have used the system, you haven't... before I used VMS I had heard all the asme good things... |
| 04:26.20 | brac | fine, be that hype actually gets paid each month to the fact that I'm thinking that could post articles :) |
| 04:26.32 | brailsmt | levi_home: i had a real open mind about it, it took about a month before that wore off |
| 04:26.58 | levi_home | brailsmt: Chill out, man. It's okay to disagree about things. |
| 04:27.10 | levi_home | I'm sorry VMS made you so bitter. |
| 04:27.53 | levi_home | It's very possible that I'd hate VMS too, but I'm going to reserve judgement. |
| 04:28.21 | brailsmt | levi_home: you made me bitter, VMS sucks, you frankly have nothing but others opinions to lean on, you're attitude was more than a little holier than thou |
| 04:29.05 | brailsmt | clustering is one thing VMS did right |
| 04:29.07 | levi_home | brailsmt: And if I believed you, I would still only have the opinions of others to go on. |
| 04:29.15 | levi_home | Man, everyone's so sensitive today. |
| 04:30.15 | elg | no kidding |
| 04:30.20 | brailsmt | set def user01[user.<username>] == cd $HOME just plain cd |
| 04:30.22 | brac | no kidding - especially since it's from incidental music in the BIOS, anything else in the dark |
| 04:30.24 | elg | i'm not offended by you today levi |
| 04:30.54 | brailsmt | the amount of typing needed on vms is large |
| 04:31.04 | brailsmt | whic alone is a pain |
| 04:31.14 | levi_home | Perhaps I'm the new offender of people now that sjansen doesn't come around as much. |
| 04:31.19 | brailsmt | there is one cool command... cxxdemangler |
| 04:31.31 | levi_home | Demangles c++ names? |
| 04:31.33 | elg | hehe |
| 04:31.45 | elg | there's something that does that on osx |
| 04:32.05 | elg | and prob. linux too. (if that's what it does) |
| 04:32.10 | brailsmt | oh, C++ compiler didn't support STL until a few years ago, which is a pain |
| 04:33.09 | elg | night |
| 04:33.15 | levi_home | elg: g'night |
| 04:33.24 | levi_home | Maybe I'll horribly offend you tomorrow. ;) |
| 04:35.00 | brailsmt | elg: gnight |
| 05:10.04 | levi_home | Ow, TinyMARE is just as bad as TinyMUSH. |
| 05:49.42 | tensai | ~rlart |
| 06:20.52 | findlay | does anybody have a cam sprocket wrench I can borrow? |
| 06:23.42 | tensai | watcha doin'? |
| 06:25.04 | findlay | tensai: I'm replacing my head gaskets :( |
| 06:26.24 | tensai | I filled my washer fluid up today |
| 06:26.41 | findlay | want to trade cars? |
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| 06:28.25 | the_kev | sweet, a room called utah |
| 06:28.55 | findlay | do you have a cam sprocket wrench? |
| 06:29.18 | the_kev | uh not on me |
| 06:29.24 | findlay | or a belt tensioner wrench? |
| 06:29.30 | findlay | :( |
| 06:30.03 | the_kev | nope, can't say that i do :| *checks pockets* |
| 06:33.11 | findlay | hopefully I can rent them from Napa |
| 06:33.28 | the_kev | napa rents tools? |
| 06:33.46 | findlay | most car places do |
| 06:33.54 | the_kev | since when? |
| 06:34.27 | findlay | I'm not aware of any time they didn't |
| 06:42.03 | tensai | I know autozone does. I think I've seen some place advertise that they'll even lend you the tool with a deposit. |
| 06:42.33 | tensai | I don't think they rent screwdrivers and pliers, just the less common tools |
| 06:42.34 | findlay | I thought they all had a deposit |
| 06:42.35 | the_kev | never knew that |
| 06:42.36 | the_kev | lol |
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| 06:42.45 | tensai | findlay: yeah, but lend them as opposed to rent |
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| 06:43.05 | findlay | oh, right |
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| 06:44.34 | tensai | I've never been courageous enough to try any repairs that big though |
| 06:45.06 | findlay | heh, I can't afford not to |
| 06:45.23 | vontrapp | i can't afford findlay |
| 06:45.27 | findlay | unless I buy a 'new' car with all of it's problems |
| 06:45.49 | findlay | especially for my affording range |
| 06:46.14 | vontrapp | image magick gurus? i just want to combine two images, i can't even remember the imagy word for it, but put them side by side (or in this case one above the other) |
| 06:46.43 | findlay | vontrapp: http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/ |
| 06:46.54 | findlay | never look further for imagemagick help |
| 06:47.05 | findlay | stupid mouse |
| 06:47.10 | findlay | ~lart mouse |
| 06:47.13 | findlay | http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/ |
| 06:47.40 | findlay | it likes to do a double center kliken when I'm not looking |
| 06:48.51 | findlay | looks like `convert -append` is the answer |
| 06:49.36 | vontrapp | searching append in the page gives nothing |
| 06:50.04 | vontrapp | oh sweet, it puts em' vertical by default |
| 06:50.13 | vontrapp | that'll do nicely |
| 06:50.21 | findlay | http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#append |
| 06:56.01 | levi_home | findlay: Good luck with your repairs! |
| 06:56.29 | findlay | thanks levi_home |
| 06:56.32 | levi_home | I need to take my exhaust manifold off at some point and see if it's warped or something. |
| 06:56.38 | findlay | I just hope the head isn't warped |
| 06:56.41 | levi_home | I seem to have a slight leak when it's cold. |
| 06:57.36 | levi_home | I'm not looking forward to it, since it will require dismantling a lot of turbo piping and undoing bolts that won't want to move. |
| 06:58.17 | levi_home | But at least I don't have to take the whole engine head off! |
| 06:58.31 | levi_home | Though I really do need to change my timing belt at some point. |
| 06:58.42 | levi_home | I just hit 160k miles. |
| 06:58.53 | tensai | I'm sure my belt needs to be changed too. it's the loudest part of the engine. |
| 06:59.04 | tensai | makes a kind of squeaky noise |
| 06:59.09 | levi_home | That's probably the accessory belt. |
| 06:59.21 | tensai | belts is belts to me |
| 06:59.32 | levi_home | The timing belt is generally hidden behind a panel or something. |
| 06:59.40 | findlay | heh, a timing belt is not likely to squeak |
| 07:00.17 | levi_home | The timing belt connects the camshafts to the crank. If it breaks, engine no workie. |
| 07:00.19 | tensai | hmm. so who'd figured I have two belts? |
| 07:00.40 | findlay | squeaking usually occurs when the force of a pulley exceeds the coefficient of static friction on the belt |
| 07:00.43 | levi_home | And if your engine is an interference design, your pistons probably crash into your valves, too. |
| 07:01.11 | levi_home | timing belts are ribbed, so they don't slip and thus don't squeak. |
| 07:01.22 | levi_home | If they do slip a notch, your car runs like crap. |
| 07:02.13 | levi_home | Thus, it is important that your timing belt is in decent condition. |
| 07:02.23 | tensai | how often should they be replaced? |
| 07:02.34 | levi_home | Generally 60-90k miles. |
| 07:02.39 | findlay | 80,000? |
| 07:03.03 | tensai | so if my car is 105k, any time would be good? |
| 07:03.03 | levi_home | I believe to be sold in CA, they have to have an official life of 90k. |
| 07:03.10 | levi_home | tensai: Yeah. |
| 07:03.25 | tensai | is it hard? expensive? dangerous? |
| 07:03.32 | levi_home | tensai: It's generally an expensive service, though. On the order of $600 to have a shop do it. |
| 07:03.47 | levi_home | There tends to be quite a bit of disassembly to get to it. |
| 07:04.35 | levi_home | For my car, I'd have to take out the radiator, take off the accessory belts, take off the valve cover, and take off the engine front cover. |
| 07:05.17 | levi_home | Then you have to de-tension the belt, take off the old one, and make sure the camshafts are aligned properly when the new one goes on. |
| 07:05.29 | levi_home | Re-tension to spec, and button things back up. |
| 07:06.13 | levi_home | So, there's not a lot of special equipment involed, but it's a somewhat lengthy process and it's critical that you do it correctly. |
| 07:06.53 | levi_home | You probably also need some more detailed instructions specific to your vehicle, and probably some extra gaskets and belts and sealant and such things. |
| 07:07.32 | findlay | my car cost me less than $600 |
| 07:07.44 | findlay | then again my car looks like a great red beetle |
| 07:07.58 | levi_home | findlay: So, throw it away and get another $600 car. |
| 07:08.05 | vontrapp | my first car was $700 |
| 07:08.08 | vontrapp | i still miss it |
| 07:08.13 | levi_home | It's hard to do major repairs on a car for less than $600. |
| 07:08.19 | levi_home | I sold my first car for $700. |
| 07:08.25 | findlay | no way. Do you know how much repairs the average $600 car needs? |
| 07:08.35 | vontrapp | got rear ended on valentines day a year ago :( |
| 07:08.43 | vontrapp | who was it here that had a festiva? |
| 07:08.57 | levi_home | findlay: How much have you sunk in your $600 car? |
| 07:09.11 | vontrapp | i'd hardly call it sinking |
| 07:09.33 | levi_home | Well, any money you put in any car is pretty much sunk. :) |
| 07:09.38 | findlay | levi_home: it was $500 and I've put about that much into it of parts |
| 07:10.03 | findlay | at the best deals I could find |
| 07:10.14 | vontrapp | if you pay 1200 to keep a $600 car running for 2 years, that's still cheaper than a shiny new car you would pay $300/mo on |
| 07:10.14 | findlay | I've done all the labor so far |
| 07:10.16 | levi_home | I got my Miata for $5k, and put probably another $3k into it while installing the turbo and such. |
| 07:11.01 | levi_home | It is much fun to drive, but it's starting to cry out for more work on it now. |
| 07:11.39 | levi_home | I also got a VW Eurovan with camper top for $5k. It's needing some bodywork pretty bad, which I'm going to have to learn how to do. |
| 07:12.38 | levi_home | I have a Toyota Solara that I got for $9k, but it's not old and broken enough for me, so I'm trying to sell it. ;) |
| 07:12.58 | vontrapp | i'll buy it for $600 |
| 07:13.12 | vontrapp | :p |
| 07:13.13 | levi_home | Heh. |
| 07:13.22 | levi_home | It's worth at least 10x that. |
| 07:13.46 | vontrapp | my ribs just recently started hurting again from that rear ending a year ago |
| 07:13.56 | vontrapp | no fun |
| 07:14.01 | levi_home | Yuck. |
| 07:14.14 | findlay | sounds like it's an annual thing |
| 07:14.14 | vontrapp | fortunately some chiropractor gave my wife some coupon thing for a free visit |
| 07:14.29 | levi_home | Had luck with chiropractors before? |
| 07:14.37 | vontrapp | some |
| 07:14.46 | vontrapp | i went to one just after the accident |
| 07:14.50 | vontrapp | for about 3 weeks |
| 07:14.54 | levi_home | I saw one after a sledding accident. Not sure how much difference it made. |
| 07:15.11 | vontrapp | i didn't like him as much as my first experience though |
| 07:15.46 | vontrapp | first time was in california (fresno) and my companion had had his wrist worked on there before so took me when my shoulder was hurting |
| 07:15.55 | levi_home | I used to jump out of trees and off roofs and stuff when I was a kid, though, so my back has reason to hate me. |
| 07:16.01 | vontrapp | some guy there that liked to work on missionaries for free |
| 07:16.28 | levi_home | Free is cool, especially when it helps. |
| 07:16.34 | vontrapp | anyway, he told me i had a tendon out of place in the shoulder ball socket thingy |
| 07:16.51 | vontrapp | he did some twisty thing with my arm, it felt worlds better |
| 07:16.56 | findlay | then it's warm |
| 07:17.03 | vontrapp | then a week later i had to have him do it again |
| 07:17.13 | vontrapp | after that it was good a long time |
| 07:17.23 | vontrapp | but now it still has problems if i don't treat it nice |
| 07:17.43 | levi_home | Ahh, the frailties of the human body. |
| 07:17.57 | vontrapp | and volley ball is not nice to it :( |
| 07:18.19 | levi_home | My heart will probably explode while I'm riding my bike up some steep hill someday. ;) |
| 07:18.25 | brac | My heart will probably get to class... bye! |
| 07:18.36 | vontrapp | that's the way to go |
| 07:18.55 | vontrapp | mine will explode at the bottom of some extreme mogul run |
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| 07:18.59 | levi_home | Yeah, I'm not keen on getting old and frail. |
| 07:19.22 | vontrapp | or just give out in the middle of a really scary triple back-flip with several twists over some cliffy jump |
| 07:19.24 | levi_home | Though I suspect my views on that may change with time. |
| 07:19.52 | vontrapp | i don't mind old and frail i think as long as i can do _something_ i enjoy |
| 07:20.14 | vontrapp | stuck in a hospital bed is right out |
| 07:20.18 | levi_home | True. If I get old and frail and dim-witted, though, someone please shoot me. |
| 07:20.25 | vontrapp | hehe |
| 07:21.11 | levi_home | My wife's brother's wife is dying of brain cancer right now. She's around our age. :( |
| 07:21.15 | vontrapp | one of my ribs actually got popped out of place |
| 07:21.39 | vontrapp | i can usually get it back in pretty much the right place with some strategic stretching |
| 07:21.39 | levi_home | They're poor to begin with, and she's going through one last round of chemo to extend things a few months. |
| 07:22.01 | levi_home | I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation. |
| 07:22.06 | vontrapp | levi_home: that's really tough |
| 07:22.36 | vontrapp | when we first moved into our ward here about 6 mo ago, one guys wife was in the final stages of some kind of cancer |
| 07:22.54 | vontrapp | she died only a month or so later, we never met her :( |
| 07:22.57 | levi_home | The medical bills are insane. |
| 07:23.44 | levi_home | They've got two kids, and one has a heart transplant. His original heart got attacked by a virus at the same time his mom was first diagnosed and put in the hospital. |
| 07:24.00 | vontrapp | sad |
| 07:24.12 | levi_home | He's also somewhat autistic. |
| 07:25.33 | vontrapp | things like that make me want a uniform cost distribution medical system |
| 07:25.36 | levi_home | The dad is such a friendly, loving guy, too. He just can't get a break. |
| 07:25.50 | vontrapp | i would say have health care as a tax, but then the govt. would just botch it |
| 07:26.11 | levi_home | Yeah. Tough problem, and no solutions everyone will be happy with. |
| 07:26.30 | the_kev | damn |
| 07:26.37 | levi_home | He does have really good insurance, though. He works for IHC. |
| 07:27.06 | vontrapp | it will be nice when i have a job with health benefits |
| 07:27.15 | vontrapp | yay! my wife's home!! |
| 07:27.18 | the_kev | join the army |
| 07:27.26 | the_kev | medical/dental |
| 07:27.29 | the_kev | it's all free |
| 07:27.31 | levi_home | But he mostly does medical supply delivery and such, so the medical bills still take up way too much of his income. |
| 07:27.38 | the_kev | plus you sort of a get a tax break |
| 07:27.51 | levi_home | I was an Army brat. |
| 07:28.23 | the_kev | i joined last year |
| 07:28.49 | levi_home | Being around it so much as a kid made me never want to join. |
| 07:28.58 | the_kev | spent 18 years with a special forces father |
| 07:29.11 | levi_home | My dad was JAG. |
| 07:29.21 | the_kev | that must've sucked |
| 07:29.55 | levi_home | Before he was JAG, he was Airborne, though. A social worker, but Airborne nonetheless. :P |
| 07:30.15 | the_kev | airborne is fun |
| 07:30.24 | the_kev | landing's sort of suck, but bein airborne is a blast |
| 07:30.37 | levi_home | We listened to the 82nd Airborne chorus or whatever they're called in the car all the time. |
| 07:30.38 | the_kev | my father does HALO |
| 07:30.46 | the_kev | 82nd army band? |
| 07:31.05 | levi_home | Beats me, it was a long time ago. |
| 07:31.19 | levi_home | He loved jumping. My mom hated it, though. |
| 07:32.07 | the_kev | lol |
| 07:32.10 | the_kev | i bet |
| 07:32.46 | levi_home | Anyway, he retired from the Army after they passed him over for Colonel a couple of times, and now he's an administrative judge for the state of WA. |
| 07:32.54 | the_kev | right on |
| 07:33.26 | levi_home | The half base pay retirement package is pretty sweet. |
| 07:34.25 | the_kev | how much? |
| 07:37.07 | vontrapp | %5 |
| 07:37.14 | vontrapp | $5 |
| 07:37.32 | levi_home | I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure their combined income is in the 6 figure range. |
| 07:39.43 | the_kev | lol |
| 07:41.14 | levi_home | Anyway, I need to sleep. |
| 07:42.49 | the_kev | goodnight, may the dreams of hell close their eyes to you |
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| 08:54.51 | *** part/#utah the_kev (n=aGmIRCc3@ip72-208-150-158.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 08:54.55 | Sargun | How do I interrupt a magnetic field? |
| 08:57.40 | tene | tell a joke. |
| 09:03.46 | Sargun | uh |
| 09:03.47 | Sargun | no |
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| 13:29.35 | mheath | Time to get some brunch. My stomach is hating me for that A&W food last night. |
| 13:44.07 | mheath | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16830134047 <-- Can anyone comment on Panasonic cameras? |
| 13:47.29 | mheath | Actually, nevermind |
| 13:47.37 | mheath | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16830134044 |
| 13:48.49 | mheath | Thats a bit more than I wanted to pay, but it's features and quality is amazing compared to cameras $20-$30 less than it |
| 13:49.51 | mheath | Any comments/suggestions? |
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| 14:27.18 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 14:34.46 | elg | ha. looks like they fixed their trac |
| 14:54.10 | atoponce | looks like my open letter got the attention of centon concerning my rebate |
| 14:54.28 | atoponce | the purchasing director is willing to work with me on the matter |
| 14:54.32 | atoponce | finally, some progress |
| 14:54.55 | atoponce | i may just see the $90 after all |
| 15:10.00 | atoponce | http://gmane.org/user-agents.php |
| 15:12.44 | elg | yay |
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| 16:53.20 | bonez39 | I am no cron pro....I keep getting this message, not sure how to resolve it >>> error: error accessing /var/log/squid: Permission denied error: squid:4 glob failed for /var/log/squid/*.log |
| 17:01.09 | bonez39 | is it possible, to set up a new room on freenode...and register it, so that it is persistent? |
| 17:07.24 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
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| 17:38.51 | synic | bonez39: yup, /msg chanserv help register |
| 17:40.10 | elg | sheesh. You _still_ have to reboot to change workgroups in vista |
| 17:40.28 | synic | heh, I wonder why |
| 17:47.54 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:48.24 | elg | fun. I choose "adjust for best performance" in visual effects, and it's not only ugly (which is what you expect), but also just plain broken. window close/minimize etc. icons are not aligned, strange icons with absolutely no meaning, cut off, and change to completely different icons when you click on them |
| 17:48.55 | elg | various other visual problems too. probably comes from using the not-classic theme with those things turned off, but you'd think they could automatically switch themes |
| 17:57.17 | mheath | ~lart roomates who leave bad music and leaves the room |
| 17:57.34 | mheath | This is some internet radio station that has US Navy recruiting ads every ~2 minutes too |
| 17:57.55 | mheath | US Navy - Accelerate absolutely nothing! |
| 17:58.36 | mheath | http://www.newegg.com/product/Product.asp?item=N82E16830134044 |
| 17:58.47 | mheath | I really like that camera. Not sure I should spend the money on it right now, though :( |
| 17:59.06 | mheath | As I really don't need anything that professional |
| 17:59.18 | mheath | But everything I've really worked with in the past has been professional quality. I don |
| 17:59.32 | mheath | I don't feel comfortable buying some $100-$150 point-and-shoot. |
| 18:00.00 | elg | eventually, as "no camera" gets kind of old, you become more comfortable |
| 18:00.15 | elg | it's a fascinating phenomenon |
| 18:00.22 | mheath | elg, Well, I have the money for that more expensive camera |
| 18:00.51 | mheath | And I like that one, because its not too expensive, and has all the features a full digital SLR would have. |
| 18:01.28 | mheath | Including things I like like easily accessible manual focus and aperature controls. |
| 18:02.02 | mheath | And 12X optical zoom |
| 18:02.18 | mheath | 36-432mm |
| 18:03.30 | mheath | But, like I said, I don't really need all those features |
| 18:03.34 | brac | like I got ldap auth working with one-touch recording? |
| 18:03.53 | elg | wow that's tricky brac. good work |
| 18:04.16 | mheath | Though the NEX's digital camera display sucks |
| 18:04.35 | mheath | A bunch of cameras with no prices and no labels sitting inside a glass counter |
| 18:05.07 | mheath | I tried to inquire about a few last time I was there and the employee kept trying to upsell me (I don't think they even work for a commision, so that one kind of confused me.) |
| 18:05.21 | mheath | But their prices tend to be very good, and its all tax free.... |
| 18:07.51 | brac | mheath will be underwater most of the time |
| 18:08.30 | mheath | Wow. brac, that was the first thing I think I've ever heard you say that made anything resembing sense. |
| 18:08.37 | mheath | resembling* |
| 18:11.19 | findlay | my bandwidth maxes out at 600k |
| 18:11.27 | findlay | just so everyone knows that |
| 18:11.35 | findlay | (that's dl+ul) |
| 19:56.14 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 19:59.57 | atoponce | who uses mutt here? |
| 20:00.04 | elg | i do |
| 20:00.11 | atoponce | question for you then |
| 20:00.15 | atoponce | two, actually |
| 20:00.33 | atoponce | 1) how do you setup multiple accounts? |
| 20:00.49 | atoponce | 2) how can i view other folders in my inbox? |
| 20:00.55 | atoponce | 3) can i setup filters |
| 20:01.04 | atoponce | ok. fine. three. :) |
| 20:01.38 | elg | are you using imap theN? |
| 20:01.43 | atoponce | yeah |
| 20:02.28 | elg | mutt works best on local folders, IME, but that's ok |
| 20:02.34 | elg | you can open any imap account with imap://username:password@example.com/ |
| 20:02.42 | elg | or leave the password out and let it prompt you |
| 20:03.48 | elg | since I don't use it in imap mode much, I am going somewhat from memory here, but iirc you "use an account" by setting your mail directory to the imap account |
| 20:03.51 | atoponce | ok. cool. what if, though, that i want to use 2 email addresses for the same account, and pick my outgoing email based on topic |
| 20:04.01 | elg | then all the mailboxes are the other mailboxes in your account |
| 20:04.12 | elg | sure, mutt is great at hooks |
| 20:04.33 | elg | there are a bunch of hooks you can set variables for. subject, mailbox, your hairstyle, whatever |
| 20:06.10 | atoponce | so, if ubuntu related, i could still use my home inbox, but say my email address is my ubuntu.com address rather than my gmail.com address? |
| 20:07.02 | elg | probably. i'm not 100% sure if you can set your outgoing address based on the subject of a message you're composing (since it may decide that before you enter the subject) |
| 20:07.11 | elg | but for replies, or mailboxes, absolutely |
| 20:07.30 | atoponce | ok. so hooks then for that? |
| 20:08.04 | elg | I think the folder variable is the one you want to set to e.g. imaps://you@example.com |
| 20:08.17 | elg | depending on the imap server it might need to be imaps://you@example.com/INBOX |
| 20:08.26 | elg | then you'll be able to get to your other mailboxes |
| 20:09.07 | elg | c (change mailbox) =foo for example would take you to the foo mailbox, as would imaps://you@example.com/INBOX.foo or maybe INBOX/foo or maybe just /foo (depending on imap server) |
| 20:09.36 | elg | For filters, do you mean moving mail around or do you mean filtering what you see in the current mailbox? |
| 20:11.46 | atoponce | setting up filters, so they automatically go to folders based on some regex criteria |
| 20:11.51 | elg | for the latter, l (limit) |
| 20:11.56 | elg | for the former, that's procmail's job |
| 20:12.41 | elg | you can move stuff between folders with mutt, but that's the stance they take. you might find someone has done some plugin or something to allow it but it's likely to have an ad-hoc feeilng |
| 20:13.31 | atoponce | hmm. ok |
| 20:14.02 | atoponce | i think i need to get the feel of the folders first. it is behaving much different than thunderbird, and that's going to take some getting used to |
| 20:14.24 | elg | it makes sense, anyway - just think if you accessed your imap account in several ways and they all had slightly different filtering settings. insanity would ensue |
| 20:14.42 | atoponce | lol |
| 20:15.14 | elg | if you don't have procmail access on the server, then you could probably find some daemonlike program (maybe fetchmail?) that would do it for you |
| 20:16.54 | atoponce | looking in my ~/Maildir, there is a file 'subscriptions' that lists the 'folders' that are on my imap account |
| 20:17.29 | atoponce | where all of my mail is stored- in those 'folders' |
| 20:17.55 | atoponce | mutt is just looking at the mail in Maildir itself, and not in the folders. know why? |
| 20:17.58 | mheath | Wow |
| 20:18.03 | mheath | Why do SD card prices vary so much? |
| 20:18.24 | mheath | The next cheapest was $59.99 |
| 20:19.02 | elg | i don't understand |
| 20:19.10 | elg | ~/Maildir on your server? is that your inbox? |
| 20:19.31 | ibot | okay, elg |
| 20:19.32 | atoponce | interesting. if i move mail from my inbox to one of those folders in thunderbird, mutt marks it for deleting with 'D' |
| 20:19.34 | atoponce | yeah. |
| 20:19.44 | mheath | hah |
| 20:19.57 | mheath | ibot, forget /Maildir on your server? |
| 20:19.57 | ibot | i didn't have anything called '/maildir on your server?' to forget, mheath |
| 20:20.16 | elg | atoponce: yup, until expunged |
| 20:20.33 | mheath | ibot, forget //Maildir on your server/? |
| 20:20.33 | ibot | mheath: i didn't have anything called '//maildir on your server/?' to forget |
| 20:20.38 | elg | when you say mutt is looking in.. you mean for new mail or what? |
| 20:20.38 | atoponce | but, it's not expunged, just in a different 'dir' as thunderbird sees it |
| 20:20.51 | atoponce | hold on. i'll send a screenshot |
| 20:20.53 | mheath | I need to get my server setup today =\ |
| 20:20.55 | atoponce | maybe that'll help |
| 20:21.08 | mheath | Anyone have any recommendations on e-mail server? I've just been using sendmail in the past... |
| 20:21.19 | elg | yeah, that's a virtual thing on thunderbird's part |
| 20:21.35 | mheath | Looking for something with easier supplemental things to install. POP3, IMAP, maybe some sort of webmail.. |
| 20:21.38 | elg | postfix |
| 20:21.43 | elg | postfix+dovecot |
| 20:22.01 | atoponce | elg: http://aarontoponce.org/Maildir.png |
| 20:22.14 | atoponce | the folders on the left are what i'm referring to |
| 20:22.32 | atoponce | inbox is shown in that screenshot, and the only mail shown in mutt |
| 20:22.48 | elg | right |
| 20:23.05 | atoponce | how can i see the mail in the OALUG folder, for example? |
| 20:23.07 | atoponce | in mutt |
| 20:23.12 | elg | ok, so folders in mutt are there, but not in a sidepane or anything (although if you want that and use wide xterms or something emcnabb has some hints for you) |
| 20:23.17 | elg | type c |
| 20:23.21 | elg | it will ask you for a folder |
| 20:23.30 | elg | type =OALUG |
| 20:23.32 | elg | or just hit tab |
| 20:23.41 | elg | tab completion, and if you tab twice you can get to a menu |
| 20:23.53 | elg | this all might not work if you don't set folder to your imap root |
| 20:24.17 | elg | which you could do right there in mutt with |
| 20:24.25 | elg | :set folder=... |
| 20:24.49 | elg | the subscriptions file is maybe just a thunderbird thing |
| 20:25.15 | elg | otoh it might be an imap server thing. I think imap servers support subscription |
| 20:25.25 | elg | and whether mutt's imap does, I don't know |
| 20:26.23 | atoponce | yeah. the subscriptions thing is from dovecot. pretty sure |
| 20:27.32 | elg | i would say imap is not a first class citizen of mutt's design paradigm |
| 20:27.35 | mheath | Seriously though....is there anything wrong with this SD Memory? |
| 20:27.37 | elg | but i can be made to work |
| 20:27.41 | mheath | I don't understand the huge price difference |
| 20:27.50 | mheath | they had 1 GB namebrand for 59.99 |
| 20:27.56 | atoponce | /home/aaron/Maildir/OALUG is not a mailbox. |
| 20:27.59 | atoponce | hmmm |
| 20:28.09 | mheath | and 2 GB generic (but with 10 year warranty) for 29.99 |
| 20:28.19 | atoponce | after 'c' |
| 20:28.24 | atoponce | then '=OALUG' |
| 20:28.28 | elg | atoponce: it said that? then the folder variable is set wrong |
| 20:28.33 | elg | or I'm thinking of the wrong variable |
| 20:28.43 | elg | try the full url instead of =OALUG |
| 20:28.51 | elg | i.e. imaps://you@example.com/INBOX.OALUG |
| 20:29.24 | mheath | atoponce, elg, have any suggestions for a domain name? |
| 20:30.20 | atoponce | elg: /home/aaron/Maildir/imap://aarontoponce.org/INBOX.OALUG is not a mailbox. |
| 20:30.23 | atoponce | :) |
| 20:30.30 | elg | no = right? |
| 20:30.32 | elg | ok, try this |
| 20:30.39 | atoponce | oops |
| 20:30.45 | elg | :set folder=imaps://you@example.com/ |
| 20:31.12 | atoponce | mailbox doesn't exist |
| 20:31.14 | atoponce | ok |
| 20:32.20 | atoponce | ahhh. that worked after '=OALUG' |
| 20:32.27 | atoponce | nice. thx |
| 20:32.50 | elg | put that in your muttrc |
| 20:33.09 | elg | now if you hit c? (or c and tab a few times) you get a list of subscribed mailboxes |
| 20:33.27 | mheath | I really hate Fedora. =\ |
| 20:33.49 | mheath | goozbach, I don't like void my contract by doing a migration to some other distro, do I? |
| 20:33.57 | elg | I use dovecot too, and I have to set folder=imaps://hans@fugal.net/INBOX for it to behave as I expect |
| 20:33.59 | mheath | ~invoke goozbach |
| 20:34.04 | atoponce | elg: nope. that doesn't work, but i'll look into it |
| 20:34.13 | atoponce | i gotta get going to the ubuntu-utah meet |
| 20:34.18 | atoponce | elg: thx for your help |
| 20:34.24 | elg | anytime |
| 20:39.43 | mheath | Seriously....do VPS providers who give you a system with a preinstalled OS usually frown upon converting to another OS? |
| 20:42.32 | goozbach | mheath: convert how |
| 20:42.38 | goozbach | ? |
| 20:42.52 | goozbach | BTW it's just invoke goozbach |
| 20:42.56 | goozbach | minus the tilde |
| 20:43.01 | mheath | Ah. |
| 20:43.09 | mheath | goozbach, http://www.underhanded.org/papers/debian-conversion/remotedeb.html etc. |
| 20:43.38 | mheath | And, uh, incidentally... |
| 20:43.49 | mheath | What service fees would one incur by having to have their system reimaged? :P |
| 20:44.18 | goozbach | well, give it a shot |
| 20:44.22 | goozbach | if it works, cool |
| 20:44.35 | goozbach | if not, I'll give you a free re-image just for testing |
| 20:45.07 | goozbach | here's a note, you'll want to keep your /boot and your kernel modules |
| 20:45.34 | goozbach | other kernels won't work, as this is a paravirtualized instance |
| 20:45.40 | goozbach | let me know how it goes |
| 21:00.28 | elg | ibot, invoke goozbach is <reply>invoke goozbach |
| 21:00.30 | ibot | elg: okay |
| 21:08.13 | mheath | Hmm. Do any tools allow one to resize a root partition, as a system is running? (with only maybe a reboot) |
| 21:13.36 | goozbach | LVM but you're on an LVM backed device, so we thought it silly to add lvm on top of it |
| 21:16.06 | mheath | goozbach, well, my system doesn't really see it as LVM, does it? |
| 21:16.27 | mheath | IE, it's LVM on the host system, but the virtual device sees it as a physical disk... |
| 21:18.53 | mheath | and I've never used LVM for that matter, either |
| 21:22.12 | mheath | Meh, Fedora it is. |
| 21:23.19 | goozbach | on the host, it's a logical volume |
| 21:23.38 | goozbach | the guest sees it as a phsical hard drive |
| 21:24.08 | mheath | BTW |
| 21:24.53 | mheath | You configured the the system has mheath.neverblock.com....do you usually configure those subdomains? Because mheath.neverblock.com does't actually exist (doesn't matter, I'm getting my own domain names, I was just curious...) |
| 22:02.59 | maquis | hmmm |
| 22:03.10 | maquis | does username.neverblock.com actually exist? |
| 22:03.52 | mheath | I hate shopping at stores. |
| 22:03.58 | mheath | Because I get perssured into buying something stupid |
| 22:04.00 | mheath | Like this camera |
| 22:04.07 | mheath | And then I come home and find out it has horrible reviews |
| 22:04.10 | maquis | mheath: why were you shopping at a store? |
| 22:04.27 | maquis | what did you want that you couldn't buy at amazon? |
| 22:04.32 | mheath | maquis, because the NEX 'has good deals' and is tax free |
| 22:04.44 | maquis | the NEX? |
| 22:04.58 | mheath | 'has good deals' == Charges $145.99 for something that amazon sells for $99.99 |
| 22:04.58 | maquis | commissary? |
| 22:05.03 | mheath | maquis, Navy Exchange |
| 22:05.12 | mheath | No, commissary is a grocery store. |
| 22:05.13 | maquis | ah... |
| 22:05.28 | maquis | i've heard the commissaries around here have a lot of non-grocery type stuff... like ipods and such |
| 22:05.30 | mheath | I knew that was going to happen |
| 22:05.37 | maquis | and amazon sells everything at a good price |
| 22:05.37 | mheath | I wanted to go look because sometimes they DO have good deals |
| 22:05.44 | mheath | Like, blows-everyone-else-out-of-the-water deals |
| 22:05.54 | mheath | But their camera display sucks |
| 22:06.24 | mheath | A bunch of cameras with no visible prices in a glass case |
| 22:06.40 | Sargun | overstock helps the economy more. |
| 22:06.47 | Sargun | USA's largest employer |
| 22:06.58 | maquis | Sargun: perhaps... but amazon's cooler |
| 22:07.10 | elg | ~overstock |
| 22:07.17 | ibot | rumour has it, overstock is the EVIL COMPANY |
| 22:07.17 | maquis | and... we help the world's economy |
| 22:07.18 | maquis | ~amazon |
| 22:07.20 | ibot | somebody said amazon was evil..... support independant bookstores...... http://www.powells.com, or see powells, or for info on the Amazon Boycott, see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html |
| 22:07.20 | mheath | But she recommended horrible cameras. |
| 22:07.30 | maquis | hmmm... that's not good |
| 22:07.44 | elg | looks like amazon is marginally less evil |
| 22:07.44 | mheath | Looked up reviews on some of the cameras she recommended |
| 22:07.50 | mheath | Every single one of them has horrible reviews |
| 22:07.51 | elg | according to ibot |
| 22:08.00 | maquis | still sad |
| 22:08.14 | mheath | I'm going to return this and get http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16830134044&name=Item-%23%3A-N82E16830134044 |
| 22:08.26 | mheath | Which is what I was planning on getting originally, though its a bit more than I originally planned to spend. |
| 22:09.57 | mheath | well, nevermind, I'll buy it from Amazon. They sell it for a lower price. ) |
| 22:10.25 | maquis | :) |
| 22:16.09 | mheath | yah, I get my exercise for the day |
| 22:31.27 | Sargun | Cya |
| 22:34.41 | elg | fresh debian install, with vim installed, and visudo throws me into nano of all things |
| 22:34.51 | elg | If I'd wanted nano I'd have typed nanosudo |
| 22:35.57 | goozbach | -chat about amazon |
| 22:35.57 | brac | amazon is way behind on the monitor.....is blinking amber...indicating that it goes something like fedora on saturday |
| 22:46.43 | Sargun | Oh, crap, this could get a lot more complicated. |
| 23:01.28 | Sargun | Could I donate my bacteria to the CDC? |
| 23:01.39 | Sargun | for like |
| 23:01.41 | Sargun | 20 cents |
| 23:02.36 | levi_home | Whee, fun bike ride. |
| 23:04.44 | levi_home | Sounds reasonable to me. |
| 23:04.47 | elg | thing is, the only thing I would boot into linux to do is audio work |
| 23:05.05 | elg | and I just don't trust vmware for audio work. but then, I never boot into linux and do audio work anyway |
| 23:05.23 | levi_home | Not so reasonable then, if you need low-latency. |
| 23:06.02 | elg | otooh I do have another laptop doing almost nothing (and a desktop) that I could use for audio work |
| 23:06.48 | elg | guess I'll be patient and see if my disk space dilemna goes away when the new hard drive gets here and I can offload some stuff |
| 23:07.02 | *** part/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@160.7.237.70) |
| 23:21.29 | *** join/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@160.7.237.70) |
| 23:22.14 | Sargun | haha |
| 23:32.42 | Sargun | Could I donate my living matter to the CDC? |
| 23:32.50 | Sargun | or sell it |
| 23:33.04 | Sargun | or my body |
| 23:44.15 | maquis | Sargun: i'm sure they might be willing to let you be a test for a new ebola vaccine |
| 23:46.48 | Sargun | Sweet. |
| 23:48.19 | Sargun | I love antibiotics. |
