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| 00:02.42 | nick125_lappy | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:02.42 | nick125_lappy | er |
| 00:55.43 | levi_home | Hello. |
| 00:56.24 | nick125_lappy | Hiya |
| 01:00.06 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 01:03.37 | levi_home | Wassup? |
| 01:06.07 | nick125_lappy | Not too much, you? |
| 01:10.25 | levi_home | Not much here either. |
| 01:13.33 | vontrapp | is there a way to alias such a way... alias foo="bar <args> && echo foo" |
| 01:13.51 | vontrapp | where <args> would be the command line args after the original foo |
| 01:15.37 | vontrapp | so "foo doo" would become "bar doo && echo foo" |
| 01:20.27 | vontrapp | nope, it's not possible |
| 01:30.31 | levi_home | Perhaps you could write a sh function rather than an alias. |
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| 01:35.56 | Boknoy | anyone know nslu2?do you installed optware packages in nslu?is says that I have to unsling my drive I want to use only a flash drive |
| 02:24.50 | elg | any amateur radio people listening? |
| 02:34.22 | levi_home | Hmm, Diesel Sweeties is syndicated in major papers now. |
| 02:47.42 | findlay | levi_home: that's a good idea. I wish I had known about it sooner |
| 03:02.21 | levi_home | What's a good idea? Using sh functions, or syndicating Diesel Sweeties? |
| 03:05.57 | findlay | yes |
| 03:06.37 | levi_home | I see. |
| 03:06.58 | levi_home | My request for disambiguation is futile! |
| 03:07.31 | findlay | the shell function thing |
| 03:08.02 | findlay | a neat way to add in default arguments to commands that take other arguments |
| 03:08.50 | findlay | it's a lot better than the way I was doing it before which was to put a simple wrapper file in /usr/local/bin |
| 03:09.04 | findlay | with a function you can keep it all in ~/.bash_profile |
| 03:09.44 | levi_home | I'm glad my rusty unix knowledge is still good for something. |
| 03:37.38 | levi_home | Heh, this is so typical of Utah Valley: Interpersonal communication is really important to me right now because I just got |
| 03:38.22 | levi_home | married a few months ago and we are extremely bad at communicating!! (It actually |
| 03:39.02 | levi_home | almost caused a divorce allready) so I'm hoping I can learn how to communicate a little |
| 03:39.26 | elg | grr |
| 03:39.51 | levi_home | better this semester. |
| 03:39.56 | elg | so I am finding on the web that you can often take an FM radio with analog tuner and make it receive airport traffic |
| 03:39.59 | elg | which is really cool |
| 03:40.15 | elg | and how many of those do I have? it just so happens that within the last month we've given away 3 |
| 03:40.18 | elg | and now we have none |
| 03:40.21 | levi_home | (From the message board on my Interpersonal Communications class) |
| 03:40.30 | levi_home | Heh, now there's a guy boasting about working as a project manager on several multi-million projects. |
| 03:42.21 | levi_home | Darned linefeeds! |
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| 03:43.10 | levi_home | elg: Fortunately for you, FM radios with analog tuners can be had for cheap! |
| 03:43.12 | levi_home | I think I may get very tired of reading messages from girls talking about communication issues with their husbands. |
| 03:49.21 | elg | i think you may too :) |
| 03:49.55 | elg | levi_home: yeah. I do have one am/fm clock radio that might do the trick |
| 03:50.07 | elg | then I could wake up to ATC comms. :) |
| 03:50.28 | elg | but I don't know if it will work or not. I need to see if I have any HAM friends I think |
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| 03:58.59 | vontrapp | elg: will your wife like that? |
| 04:14.21 | tensai | redbeard1: mmm, vanilla and cinnamon is a delicious combination with your ice cream recipe |
| 04:20.40 | levi_home | I just had some Dagoba hot chocolate. Pretty good stuff. |
| 04:55.20 | Supaplex | you had a dogbone in your hot chocolate? mmm different. |
| 05:01.52 | levi_home | Dagoba is an organic chocolate company. |
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| 05:19.47 | levi_home | Hah, this thing looks awesome: http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1168470616997&call_pageid=1020420665036&col=1014656511815 |
| 05:22.49 | levi_home | I seriously doubt anyone's going to buy it, but it /looks/ cool. |
| 05:26.13 | elg | vontrapp: you're not supposed to like an alarm clock |
| 05:29.32 | levi_home | elg: Ergo, you shouldn't tune it to ATC, but instead the local hip-hop station. |
| 06:01.25 | vontrapp | elg: i like my alarm clock |
| 06:01.28 | vontrapp | i get to wake up to chunga and mister making me laugh |
| 06:04.00 | levi_home | I used to listen to them in the car, but now I listen to podcasts and audiobooks. |
| 06:12.09 | mrpull- | levi_home: do you buy the audiobooks or subscribe to a service? |
| 06:14.21 | levi_home | mrpull-: I bought some from iTunes a while ago, and I've re-listened to a couple of them. The podcasts are free, though. |
| 06:18.06 | mrpull- | i kinda fell out of love with my ipod the last few weeks |
| 06:18.28 | mrpull- | the FM transmitter I bought was giving me grief |
| 06:18.53 | mrpull- | and the griffin smart-deck tape adapter gives me more grief when it gets really cold |
| 06:19.32 | mrpull- | but I'm going to the east cost twice in the next ten days, so I need to find something to load up |
| 06:20.44 | levi_home | NPR podcasts are pretty good. |
| 06:21.03 | levi_home | And there are probably some free audiobooks floating around. |
| 06:22.06 | levi_home | Fortunately for me, I use a tape adapter in one car and a line-in plug in the other, so I don't have to mess with FM transmitters. My experience with them in the past hasn't been great. |
| 06:22.21 | mrpull- | does npr have a podcast for wait wait...? |
| 06:22.49 | mrpull- | the fm transmitter works well when outside big cities |
| 06:23.04 | mrpull- | and I love the tape adapter |
| 06:23.34 | mrpull- | but it is a "smart" one that lets you skip tracks, stop and start automatically when the radio goes on/off |
| 06:23.46 | mrpull- | and when it gets really cold it skips around |
| 06:23.50 | levi_home | Yes, they do have a wait wait... podcast. |
| 06:24.10 | mrpull- | but since it is a dock connector, i've found that is the best audio i've had |
| 06:24.11 | levi_home | I just have a dumb tape adapter that works pretty well. |
| 06:24.34 | levi_home | I didn't have an iPod with a dock connector until recently. |
| 06:25.44 | mrpull- | wow, it's been a long time since I looked at the itunes podcast directory |
| 06:27.20 | levi_home | I'm subscribed to All Songs Considered, Hmmm... Krulwich on Science, On Words with John Ciardi, Radio Expeditions, Story of the Day, Technology, and Wait Wait..., all from NPR. |
| 06:27.35 | levi_home | Oh, and Science Friday. |
| 06:28.35 | levi_home | PopSci Podcasts is really good, too. It's done by Jonathan Coulton, who is pretty funny and a talented musician. |
| 06:29.17 | levi_home | This Week in Tech is good if you like to hear talking heads yammer on about gadgets and computers and stuff. |
| 06:29.44 | mrpull- | twit was one of the first podcasts I listened to... it grew a bit tired |
| 06:29.51 | mrpull- | i do like gadgets talk tho |
| 06:30.42 | levi_home | I'd appreciate it more if they spent a little less time joking amongst themselves and get to the point. |
| 06:30.55 | mrpull- | part of the allure was me saying... "nah! that is crap!" and yelling at them while driving down the road |
| 06:31.35 | levi_home | I tend to enjoy information-based podcasts more than personality-based podcasts. |
| 06:32.11 | mrpull- | some days i just want to be entertained |
| 06:32.39 | mrpull- | i've been on a sports kick lately (jazz/nfl) so i listen to sports talk most of the drive |
| 06:36.22 | levi_home | I listen to music when I want to be entertained. I'd shoot myself before willingly subjecting myself to sports talk. ;) |
| 06:36.32 | levi_home | http://scarletlambda.org/ <- cool! |
| 06:40.07 | levi_home | I'm sure there are sports talk podcasts, but I can't help you find them. :) |
| 06:41.18 | mrpull- | yeah, but that info gets dated awfully quickly |
| 06:41.43 | mrpull- | KSL had the BYU press conferences |
| 06:44.02 | mrpull- | oh well... i've got an 8:15 flight. i ought to go pack |
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| 13:46.47 | elg | ~wake vontrapp |
| 13:47.01 | ibot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on vontrapp and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 13:47.20 | elg | i meant I'm supposed to like my alarm clock because I actually listen to it |
| 13:47.29 | elg | if you don't listen to it, like my wife, then you're not supposed to like it |
| 14:03.21 | elg | so sorry I can't invite you all to join me today. I'm sure you'd love it. |
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| 14:45.37 | tristanbob_ | what do people use to manage and connect to SSH and telnet servers? I use putty on windows, but it looks UGLY in Linux |
| 14:46.53 | encryptz | tristanbob_: what looks ugly? |
| 14:47.09 | tristanbob_ | the putty window |
| 14:47.21 | encryptz | you're running PuTTY in Linux? |
| 14:47.31 | tristanbob_ | I tried it |
| 14:47.35 | tristanbob_ | what is better |
| 14:47.36 | encryptz | gnome-terminal, my brother |
| 14:47.48 | tristanbob_ | how about managing dozens of connections |
| 14:47.55 | encryptz | alias them |
| 14:47.59 | tristanbob_ | not at a time, but ad addressbook |
| 14:48.15 | tristanbob_ | that is a good idea... |
| 14:48.49 | encryptz | alias connecthome='ssh user@homeserver'; alias connectwork='ssh user@workserver'; # etc |
| 14:48.54 | encryptz | that's what i don |
| 14:48.59 | encryptz | s/n// |
| 14:49.08 | Jayce^ | konsole :) |
| 14:49.12 | encryptz | the tab complete becomes your friend. :) |
| 14:49.28 | Jayce^ | konsole and others also allow for bookmark sets |
| 14:49.48 | encryptz | konsole has the best font and colors that i have seen too |
| 14:50.12 | encryptz | it's just too kde. :) |
| 14:56.18 | encryptz | the worst font and colors, hands-down, are rxvt |
| 14:59.20 | encryptz | hmmm. -fn who woulda thunk? |
| 15:01.13 | encryptz | meh. gnome-terminal still takes the cake for me. |
| 15:04.35 | stuporglue | One complaint about gnome-terminal: I wish there were a way to up the font size without the terminal getting larger at the same time. Worse still, if you have two tabs, one in large font and one small, and switch between them, the window changes size |
| 15:16.29 | tristanbob_ | anyone know how long a release of opensuse is supported? |
| 15:26.07 | tristanbob_ | looks like 2 years |
| 15:26.08 | tristanbob_ | http://en.opensuse.org/SUSE_Linux_Lifetime |
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| 16:41.30 | elg | -lart sjansen |
| 16:41.52 | elg | ~lart sjansen for good measure |
| 16:42.06 | elg | well that wasn't so bad |
| 16:44.25 | sjansen | elg: Thou art angered, oh elg? Have I offended the? Pray tell! |
| 16:45.03 | levi | elg: What wasn't so bad? |
| 16:45.06 | elg | no, it was a celebratory lart |
| 16:45.11 | elg | that qualifying exam was cake |
| 16:45.29 | elg | it was the one on algorithms. big oh and stuff |
| 16:45.58 | nick125_lappy | voxilla better mail my PAP2T-NA today.. |
| 16:46.30 | levi | Fun. :) |
| 16:46.38 | levi | elg: How many have you taken so far? |
| 16:46.43 | elg | that was the first |
| 16:47.06 | elg | turns out they're not 4-hour exams. they're aimed to be about 1 hour and you have 4 hours to do them. the idea is that time is not a constraint |
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| 16:47.26 | levi | Oh, that's MUCH nicer. :) |
| 16:47.29 | elg | so instead of 20 hours of exams, it's more like finals week. hard finals, but still |
| 16:48.40 | levi | You may get in that PhD program yet! ;) |
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| 16:49.47 | elg | :-P |
| 16:50.04 | elg | more like I may not feel guilty for not studying after all. ;-) |
| 16:50.17 | elg | I studied... about 1 week |
| 16:50.54 | elg | the one tomorrow afternoon is the one I'm scared of. I think I should pass all the others for sure. but today may have been extraordinarily easy |
| 16:51.01 | elg | to lull me into false security. :) |
| 16:56.17 | sjansen | ~doom elg |
| 16:56.19 | ibot | ACTION joins with the dodos in mocking sjansen: "Doom on you! Doom on you!" || <action> bites off a finger, then sends sjansen hurling down deep into the Cracks of Mount Doom |
| 16:56.49 | redbeard1 | ~brulee sjansen |
| 16:56.51 | ibot | ACTION whisks sjansen with eggs and cream, and bakes at 350F before sprinkling with sugar and torching |
| 16:57.13 | sjansen | What a delicious way to die. |
| 16:57.54 | elg | i think that backfired on you |
| 17:01.25 | levi | elg: Which one do you have tomorrow? |
| 17:03.02 | elg | "automata" (formal languages, computability, etc.) and Operating Systems |
| 17:03.20 | elg | OS is the one I'm nervous about. otoh it is open book |
| 17:05.53 | levi | What does the OS one cover? |
| 17:06.16 | elg | http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer/operating_systems.html |
| 17:16.38 | elg | any HAMs here? |
| 17:16.48 | elg | \me: aren't you pork? |
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| 18:09.42 | sjansen | emcnabb: Get back to work! |
| 18:17.04 | elg | ~monkey emcnabb |
| 18:17.05 | ibot | ACTION flings poo at emcnabb |
| 18:37.33 | encryptz | can sort(); pass a filehandle from opendir(); ? |
| 18:39.30 | sjansen | encryptz: I don't understand the question. |
| 18:40.46 | encryptz | foreach $file (sort readdir MD) |
| 18:41.09 | findlay | readdir only reads one file at a time |
| 18:41.10 | encryptz | the first value of $file is not the first alphabetically of readdir(MD) |
| 18:42.18 | encryptz | and, to make things even more confusing, two dirs are being read twice, when they only exist once |
| 18:43.05 | Jayce^ | findlay, in scalar context, in list context it will return them all |
| 18:43.10 | Jayce^ | which you could give to sort |
| 18:43.16 | findlay | yes |
| 18:43.26 | encryptz | http://pastebin.ca/317559 |
| 18:47.12 | encryptz | first off, i don't get why the list isn't coming out sorted, and second, i don't understand why two directories are being listed twice |
| 18:48.16 | findlay | encryptz: my @files = readdir MD ; foreach my $file (sort @files) ... |
| 18:49.14 | encryptz | findlay: good idea. /me tries |
| 18:49.35 | findlay | also your code is really tabby. I must convert you to 1 or 2 space indents |
| 18:50.07 | encryptz | i know |
| 18:50.57 | encryptz | findlay: still not coming out sorted |
| 18:51.25 | findlay | try a simpler loop or a test case to try to isolate the sorting effect |
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| 19:05.38 | encryptz | lol |
| 19:06.03 | encryptz | .Trash-aaront is a dir, which contains directories that would appear to be out of order |
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| 19:52.06 | Cleetus | -lart ibot |
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| 20:03.39 | brasto | is redbeard1 available? I was told in a UPHPU mailing he might have some recipe code (for food, not for code ;) ) |
| 20:06.29 | goozbach | brasto: try http://blog.josephhall.com/ |
| 20:07.52 | brasto | goozbach, is there somewhere to download the code on that site? |
| 20:09.21 | redbeard1 | hey brasto |
| 20:10.29 | redbeard1 | i'm working on a spec, no code yet. any help would be greatly appreciated though. |
| 20:12.56 | brasto | redbeard1, i've looked at some of the php Recipe programs (for food - sad that I have to clarify that...) and have not had good experiences with either of them. I'm playing with ReciPants now - stupid name, but it looks promising. It may have some stuff you'll want to look at since I hear your into Perl script, and it is Perl based. |
| 20:13.30 | brasto | ReciPants, unix name recipants on http://sf.net |
| 20:13.42 | redbeard1 | brasto: i've seen recipants, and it's certainly one of the better programs i've ever seen |
| 20:14.46 | redbeard1 | what sort of things are you looking for? |
| 20:15.09 | redbeard1 | i'm going to guess that recipants didn't quite have everything you were looking for, if you're still looking |
| 20:15.15 | brasto | i don't have it working yet. something that works is a good start :) |
| 20:15.24 | brasto | and hopefully something that uses MySQL |
| 20:15.52 | brasto | if i get recipants working, i may stay with it. |
| 20:16.05 | brasto | i'm getting "premature end of script" errors right now. |
| 20:16.10 | emcnabb | ~seen sjansen |
| 20:16.36 | ibot | sjansen is currently on #utah (3h 39m 32s). Has said a total of 5 messages. Is idling for 1h 37m 6s, last said: 'encryptz: I don't understand the question.'. |
| 20:16.36 | redbeard1 | oh, those. what server os are you running it on? |
| 20:17.14 | brasto | FreeBSD 4.7/Apache HTTPD 1.3.x/PHP 5/MySQL 5 |
| 20:17.22 | brasto | Not sure on the Perl version |
| 20:17.34 | brasto | I'll check in a moment, my wife is calling for me... brb |
| 20:21.36 | brasto | redbeard1, want a perl -V? |
| 20:21.55 | brasto | it has a lot of stuff... |
| 20:22.08 | redbeard1 | sure |
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| 20:42.41 | encryptz | grrr |
| 20:57.22 | sjansen | heh |
| 21:21.03 | sjansen | ~hug Vim |
| 21:21.05 | ibot | ACTION jumps into Vim's lap and huggles and *hugs* Vim |
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| 21:37.01 | Lone_Wanderer | goozbach met MC Frontalot? |
| 21:51.06 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=brasto@71-219-149-94.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 21:52.50 | goozbach | Lone_Wanderer: watch the video |
| 21:52.58 | goozbach | I'm the first interviewee |
| 21:53.07 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh okay, cool |
| 22:17.22 | Jayce^ | the ugly kid with the nappy hair... that's goozbach |
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| 22:28.56 | goozbach | yup |
| 22:29.02 | goozbach | that's mee |
| 22:35.55 | emcnabb | ~seen mheath |
| 22:52.44 | ibot | mheath <n=mheath@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.co.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 41d 3h 47m 46s ago, saying: 'As a computer tech'. |
| 23:05.03 | levi | I haven't seen him since he left for the Navy. Missing him, emcnabb? |
| 23:05.04 | Jayce^ | nah, just expects him back soon |
| 23:05.08 | levi | How long is Navy boot/basic/whatever supposed to be? |
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| 23:08.37 | goozbach | mheath left? |
| 23:11.23 | *** join/#utah mrpull-v (n=Miranda@65.246.47.146) |
| 23:13.58 | levi | Apparently, he's got about 2-3 weeks left in boot camp. |
| 23:19.20 | encryptz | how do i pass a \t in a function so i can append it to a string |
| 23:19.28 | encryptz | it doesn't seem to be passing it |
| 23:20.01 | encryptz | Funtion("\t") ? |
| 23:20.47 | encryptz | does it need to be typecast? perl doesn't care about that, does it? |
| 23:20.57 | sjansen | should work fine |
| 23:21.06 | sjansen | you've probably got another bug |
| 23:21.24 | encryptz | sjansen: let me give you a pastebin |
| 23:22.07 | encryptz | http://pastebin.ca/317924 |
| 23:22.43 | encryptz | PrintFiles(); seems to be my problem, as i don't think it's passing correctly |
| 23:23.56 | sjansen | sub foo { |
| 23:23.56 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:23.56 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:23.56 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:23.56 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:23.57 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:23.59 | sjansen | } |
| 23:24.01 | sjansen | foo("\t"); |
| 23:25.15 | levi | Ew, perl. |
| 23:26.32 | encryptz | why are you only going 5 deep? i'd rather not predict the depth of a dir |
| 23:27.15 | sjansen | It was a quick test to prove you can pass "\t" to function. |
| 23:27.25 | encryptz | ahh |
| 23:28.00 | sjansen | Let me guess, you're seeing only one level of indent? It indents one tab but never more? |
| 23:30.08 | sjansen | Nope, you're getting a 1. |
| 23:30.43 | goozbach | kitchen foo is strong |
| 23:30.55 | goozbach | potroast, bread, and ice cream |
| 23:30.58 | goozbach | all in one day |
| 23:31.01 | goozbach | huraay |
| 23:31.22 | sjansen | Two bugs. 1) You're never increasing indent. 2) You should be saying "my ($indent) = @_;" or "my $indent = shift;". |
| 23:31.47 | sjansen | If you're going to program in Perl, you must, must, must watch out for scalar vs. list context. |
| 23:32.34 | encryptz | sjansen: yeah. just caught that, plus, as you mentioned, i forgot to increment the indent |
| 23:32.37 | encryptz | cool. thxt |
| 23:33.34 | levi | Best bet: don't program in perl at all. |
| 23:34.04 | sjansen | BTW, I read somewhere along time ago that it's faster in perl to say "print $foo,$bar,$baz;" because you avoid a pointless concatenation. |
| 23:34.05 | goozbach | nah continue it thy perl ways |
| 23:34.50 | sjansen | levi's just jealous because Perl steals all the good ideas from languages he wishes people used instead. ;-) |
| 23:35.53 | levi | Perhaps if they steal enough good ideas, they will start to outnumber the bad ones! |
| 23:37.35 | encryptz | sjansen: so when is my $indent = @_; and my ($indont) = @_; scalar and when is it list, and what's the difference between the two |
| 23:38.13 | levi | Aieee. |
| 23:38.25 | encryptz | s/don/den/ |
| 23:39.19 | levi | The @ means list, and so does the () around the $indent in the second example. |
| 23:39.24 | levi | $ means scalar, too. |
| 23:40.22 | levi | And when you do $scalar = @list, it coerces the list value to a scalar. I think this just gives you the number of items in the list, but I don't remember all of perl's coercion rules. |
| 23:40.23 | sjansen | http://perl.plover.com/context.html |
| 23:40.24 | encryptz | but isn't "\t" a string? i thought that was scalar... |
| 23:40.44 | sjansen | @_ is list, that's what matters |
| 23:41.01 | levi | encryptz: In perl, the /variable/ itself has the scalar or list type. |
| 23:41.02 | sjansen | "\t" doesn't appear anywhere in $scalar = @_; |
| 23:41.32 | encryptz | ok. just trying to wrap my mind around it |
| 23:42.00 | levi | encryptz: Give up now, and find a sane language while your mind is still intact! |
| 23:42.32 | sjansen | http://www.wellho.net/solutions/perl-context-list-scalar-and-double-quotes.html |
| 23:42.37 | encryptz | levi: heh. my mind went long ago when a professor made me solve ith 8 queens puzzle in lisp |
| 23:43.19 | sjansen | That's a shape, knowing list really does make you a better program. |
| 23:43.28 | sjansen | ~beat unum |
| 23:43.29 | ibot | ACTION beats unum with a dripping-wet & less-than-fresh fish |
| 23:43.30 | unum | which is god's language |
| 23:43.58 | sjansen | Few real languages can be called less sane than Perl. C++ is less sane than Perl. |
| 23:44.45 | levi | sjansen: C++'s insanity lurks in the hidden corners of the language, though. Perl runs about madly through the streets. |
| 23:44.46 | unum | I tend to think of "real" languages as ones that compile |
| 23:45.14 | levi | unum: That is not a very well-formed distinction for languages. |
| 23:45.53 | levi | unum: Whether a language is interpreted or compiled is largely an implementation issue. |
| 23:45.54 | unum | levi: seems like a clear distiction to me |
| 23:46.10 | levi | unum: Well, classify Java then. |
| 23:46.20 | unum | it's interpreted |
| 23:46.26 | unum | I know it's bitcode |
| 23:46.32 | unum | but still that's not compiled |
| 23:46.47 | unum | I need to have the "compiler" on my system in order to run it |
| 23:46.53 | levi | unum: Not always so. |
| 23:47.07 | unum | you can "compile" java to machine code? |
| 23:47.16 | levi | unum: And you seem to be using a limited definition of 'compile', too. |
| 23:47.43 | levi | unum: Yes. In fact, the Sun java machine compiles java to machine code while it's running. |
| 23:47.51 | levi | unum: And gcj compiles to machine code ahead of time. |
| 23:48.14 | levi | unum: And compiling to bytecode is every bit as much compiling as compiling to native code is. |
| 23:48.39 | unum | compiling at run time is different then compiling once |
| 23:48.51 | levi | unum: Yes, it is different, but it still generates machine code. |
| 23:48.57 | unum | you're just arguing semantics |
| 23:49.02 | unum | you know what I meant |
| 23:49.09 | levi | Run-time compilation can introduce additional optimizations that aren't available at compile time, too. |
| 23:49.33 | unum | I didn't say it couldn't |
| 23:49.42 | levi | unum: The semantics are important! I'm trying to break down your false distinction between 'real' and 'not-real' languages. |
| 23:49.51 | unum | I just said when someone said "real" language I don't think of java |
| 23:50.04 | unum | levi: than what makes you call one language real and another one not real? |
| 23:50.04 | sjansen | Not real: BrainF*ck |
| 23:50.11 | unum | or NULL |
| 23:50.13 | unum | ya |
| 23:50.17 | maquis | sjansen: whitespace |
| 23:50.43 | maquis | i dunno though... does the shakespeare programming language get to be real? |
| 23:50.47 | levi | unum: It depends on the context. I usually don't make that distinction at all, because it is usually rather arbitrary. |
| 23:51.13 | sjansen | levi: He's a C++ lover, that means he still stuck in the 80's and you're wasting your time. |
| 23:51.15 | unum | levi: I'm not the one that said "real language" in the first place |
| 23:51.15 | levi | What is the point in declaring a language 'not real'? |
| 23:51.32 | unum | I was just trying to tell the other speaker what he statement implied to me |
| 23:51.42 | unum | s/he/his |
| 23:52.35 | levi | unum: Clearly sjansen was using 'real' in the sense that the language was intended for actual programming use and not as some twisted effort to design a difficult-to-use language. |
| 23:52.40 | sjansen | levi's just bitter because it's people like unum that keep Smalltalk down. |
| 23:53.59 | levi | sjansen: Smalltalk's legacy is alive and well in several places, though. |
| 23:54.07 | Lone_Wanderer | The C man is always keeping the Smalltalk man down. |
| 23:54.10 | unum | now that he has given an example I understand but until then I didn't know |
| 23:54.17 | unum | long live pascal! |
| 23:55.19 | levi | The main problem with Pascal is that none of its extensions that made it useful for systems programming got standardized. |
| 23:55.46 | sjansen | The main problem with Pascal was it inherently pedantic design. |
| 23:55.53 | sjansen | s/it/its/ |
| 23:56.05 | sjansen | heh |
| 23:56.47 | levi | sjansen: Well, it was designed to teach spaghetti-coders how to do structured programming. |
| 23:59.03 | levi | Plenty of people swear by Delphi for writing generic business applications. Would you rather have them use Delphi or Visual Basic? |
| 23:59.44 | sjansen | True. |