| 00:02.21 | atoponce | i think my mail is not going to where it should be |
| 00:03.18 | dataw0lf | atoponce: tried local delivery? |
| 00:03.45 | atoponce | well, i think either postfix or dovecot is not looking at the right dir for my mail |
| 00:03.59 | dataw0lf | ah |
| 00:04.03 | dataw0lf | so it's actually there? |
| 00:04.09 | dataw0lf | (the mail you've sent) |
| 00:05.22 | atoponce | yeah. i can see the mail with 'mail', but thunderbird isn't getting in |
| 00:05.24 | atoponce | *it |
| 00:06.38 | atoponce | grrrr |
| 00:36.11 | *** join/#utah lane_ (n=lane@208.64.90.18.utahbroadband.com) |
| 01:29.36 | *** join/#utah maquis-fiance (n=thesuper@72.8.101.185) |
| 01:30.01 | Supaplex | hehe |
| 01:44.15 | dataw0lf | dang, I didn't know maquis was engaged, nor that her fiancee was on IRC. |
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| 03:58.16 | levi_home | dataw0lf: She got engaged sometime while you were away from #utah. |
| 03:58.38 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@67.137.24.115) |
| 04:00.31 | findlay | hello |
| 04:00.53 | levi_home | Hi, findlay |
| 04:01.42 | findlay | hello levi_home |
| 04:08.45 | findlay | looks like I'm finally back in business |
| 04:10.33 | levi_home | Cool. :) |
| 04:10.38 | levi_home | This is also cool: http://www.aladdin.cs.cmu.edu/reu/mini_probes/papers/2005/talk_murphy05.swf |
| 04:13.45 | findlay | ok, but if it crashes X, it's your fault |
| 04:13.55 | findlay | because I'm using gnash |
| 04:14.09 | levi_home | gnash? |
| 04:14.35 | findlay | Gnash is a GNU Flash movie player that supports many SWF v7 features |
| 04:14.56 | findlay | and by virtue of being open source can compile on amd-64 |
| 04:15.32 | levi_home | Ahh, okay. |
| 04:15.34 | levi_home | Did it work? |
| 04:15.39 | findlay | nope |
| 04:15.40 | findlay | ): |
| 04:15.58 | levi_home | Oh. Well, you should find a system that can view it. It's about modal logic. |
| 04:16.08 | findlay | cool |
| 04:16.52 | findlay | shouldn't information on modal logic be availible only in austere formats like postscript? |
| 04:17.23 | levi_home | No indeed. It's a very hip kind of presentation. |
| 04:17.25 | findlay | surely not in some hip presentation format like swf |
| 04:17.33 | findlay | jinx |
| 05:08.01 | findlay | excellentness |
| 05:08.12 | findlay | levi_home: do you know anything about LinuxBIOS? |
| 05:47.02 | *** join/#utah carrus85 (n=carrus85@216.83.145.38) |
| 05:53.34 | levi_home | findlay: Yes, actually. |
| 05:53.56 | levi_home | findlay: I work with several LinuxBIOS developers. |
| 06:01.30 | levi_home | Anyone awake? |
| 06:01.44 | Tene | I am! |
| 06:01.47 | Tene | Are you? |
| 06:02.20 | levi_home | Yes. |
| 06:02.41 | findlay | levi_home: how hard do you think it would be to hack LinuxBIOS onto a random mainboard? |
| 06:03.03 | levi_home | findlay: Hard. |
| 06:03.14 | findlay | awesome |
| 06:03.48 | levi_home | findlay: Though not as hard as it is to hack LinuxBIOS onto a pre-release motherboard with a new chipset. |
| 06:04.03 | findlay | heh |
| 06:05.51 | levi_home | findlay: My coworkers have horror stories. |
| 06:06.12 | levi_home | I never got to work on that stuff, though. |
| 06:06.20 | findlay | at least you have the suport of the manufacturer though, right? |
| 06:06.36 | levi_home | But I did get to wade through some Intel and AMD chipset documentation. Not fun. |
| 06:06.48 | findlay | like documentation |
| 06:06.50 | levi_home | findlay: Somewhat. |
| 06:07.18 | levi_home | Documentation is not always complete or fully accurate. |
| 06:08.06 | levi_home | So, I'm excited about a class I'm taking this term. |
| 06:08.20 | levi_home | Advanced/High Speed Computer Architecture |
| 06:09.04 | findlay | is that equivalent to racetrack architecture with bridges? |
| 06:09.26 | levi_home | The project that's threaded through the course is designing an emulator for a CPU we'll be covering in class. |
| 06:09.27 | findlay | or hypersonic aircraft architecture |
| 06:10.03 | findlay | what CPU? |
| 06:10.04 | levi_home | And we'll cover all the modern tricks CPUs play to get faster execution. |
| 06:10.25 | levi_home | I think it's a made-up, simplified one for the class. |
| 06:10.31 | levi_home | Though I'm not sure. |
| 06:10.45 | findlay | I've heard of a few toy ones out there |
| 06:14.09 | levi_home | I bought textbooks from the bookstore today, but I'll be taking them back because I found the books for about half the price online. |
| 06:14.58 | Newsome | my architecture classes were my most favorite ones as well |
| 06:15.49 | levi_home | The other one I took at BYU was really cool too, because we designed a CPU from basic logic gates in a circuit emulation program and ran programs on it. |
| 06:17.30 | levi_home | I also have an interpersonal communcations class online. :/ |
| 06:59.17 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=xbmodder@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 07:00.18 | Supaplex | bye bye yesterday. |
| 07:00.57 | levi_home | And on that note, I'm going to bed. |
| 07:14.15 | findlay | sure. Go to bed |
| 07:21.26 | findlay | ~seen findlay-w |
| 07:21.29 | ibot | findlay-w <n=justin@gocastlerock.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 10h 10m 38s ago, saying: 'was it yummy?'. |
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| 15:58.23 | tristanbob | ""The basic concept here is given the ongoing dramatic dop in the price of bandwidth and hardware, they cost very little. I looked at the bandwidth bill for Wikipedia, for instance, and it is actually substantially lower in the last year than the year before, despite traffic growing by a factor of 4." |
| 15:58.33 | tristanbob | http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/ |
| 15:59.11 | tristanbob | that is pretty amazing - how come my cable internet is not getting cheaper! |
| 16:01.39 | jsmith | tristanbob: I think you answered it... your question had the word "cable" in it. |
| 16:01.57 | tristanbob | welll - is DSL getting cheaper? |
| 16:08.04 | nick125_lappy | tristanbob: from what I've noticed, it has been.. |
| 16:11.29 | *** join/#utah WoodsDog (n=woodsdog@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 16:12.07 | tristanbob | I hate blogs that mark my comments as spam! I just ran into one with a simple math captcha (please add 5 + 8) and it told me that I failed math! |
| 16:13.00 | nick125_lappy | tristanbob: well, what did you enter? |
| 16:13.40 | tristanbob | the right answer |
| 16:28.35 | goozbach | tristanbob: what you didn't know is that it was base 9 |
| 16:41.07 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-167-228-230.dnvtco56.dynamic.covad.net) |
| 16:43.04 | levi | Good morning. |
| 16:43.48 | elg | -lart emcnabb |
| 16:43.53 | elg | ~lart emcnabb |
| 16:43.58 | elg | ~lart qwest |
| 16:44.20 | levi | tristanbob: The price of bulk bandwidth and the hardware to use it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with consumer-level prices. |
| 16:45.33 | ^Migs^ | what does "growing by a factor of 4" mean? |
| 16:45.37 | ^Migs^ | it multiplied by 4? |
| 16:45.46 | ^Migs^ | or 4 more members use it this year than last year? |
| 16:45.46 | levi | Yes, that's what it typically means. |
| 16:45.53 | tristanbob | levi: I think the cable providers keep offering higher speeds |
| 16:45.57 | ^Migs^ | well, "growing" is ambiguous |
| 16:46.04 | ^Migs^ | and so is "factor" |
| 16:46.08 | tristanbob | ^Migs^: or it could be 10x10x10x10 |
| 16:46.18 | ^Migs^ | right |
| 16:46.32 | levi | No, that's not what 'factor of 4' means. |
| 16:46.40 | ^Migs^ | or maybe it means ^4 |
| 16:46.40 | levi | Didn't you people ever learn factorization in school? |
| 16:46.59 | ^Migs^ | factors are like 1/2 3/4 1/8 |
| 16:47.05 | ^Migs^ | no wait |
| 16:47.07 | levi | No. |
| 16:47.10 | ^Migs^ | those are fractions |
| 16:47.10 | levi | Those are fractions. |
| 16:47.16 | ^Migs^ | IAW levi |
| 16:47.22 | ^Migs^ | so wtf are factors? |
| 16:47.30 | levi | Factors are the numbers you multiply together to get another number. |
| 16:47.36 | levi | Recall the term 'prime factorization'. |
| 16:47.36 | ^Migs^ | oh |
| 16:47.43 | ^Migs^ | oh |
| 16:47.43 | tristanbob | oh, like divisors |
| 16:47.48 | levi | Exactly. |
| 16:47.48 | ^Migs^ | yeah, like divisors |
| 16:47.56 | ^Migs^ | except with divisors you divide |
| 16:48.04 | tristanbob | subtractor? |
| 16:48.20 | tristanbob | what are the parts of a sum? |
| 16:48.21 | ^Migs^ | why's it not called a multiplier? |
| 16:48.24 | ^Migs^ | adders |
| 16:48.27 | ^Migs^ | or summers |
| 16:48.30 | tristanbob | summer |
| 16:48.46 | tristanbob | subtractor sounds like a cool name for an evil robot |
| 16:48.50 | ^Migs^ | yeah totally |
| 16:49.02 | ^Migs^ | maybe there'll be a Subtractor in the new Transformers movie |
| 16:49.08 | ^Migs^ | if not, there should be |
| 16:55.58 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 16:56.12 | sjansen | Anyone know what a dwarf2 unwinder is in a Linux context? |
| 16:56.40 | levi | Probably has something to do with debugging. |
| 16:58.03 | levi | http://dwarf.freestandards.org/Home.php |
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| 17:00.23 | levi | sjansen: It's probably the mechanism used to unwind the stack when you're in the debugger, so you can travel up and down in the stack frames. |
| 17:03.11 | goozbach | wewt airplane! |
| 17:03.37 | sjansen | In this case, looks like it's the code in the kernel responsible for producing a stack trace when a dump is requested. |
| 17:04.00 | levi | Sounds about right. |
| 17:04.23 | sjansen | I ask because as I shut down my laptop this morning, a kernel dump flashed on the screen and all I could remember was "dwarf2 unwinder". |
| 17:05.10 | sjansen | Just found the message in /var/log/messages, looks SELinux related, but wasn't repeated when I booted this morning. |
| 17:05.47 | sjansen | ~ground goozbach |
| 17:07.26 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> Channel for OSS discussion | See http://www.plug.org/node/28 | PHP workshop hosted by OALUG & UPHPU Jan 27 in Ogden- Watch http://groups-beta.google.com/group/oalug for details | Have you dumped a DWARF2 unwinder today? |
| 17:11.49 | elg | ~dump sjansen |
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| 17:20.17 | tensai | it's a wonder that unix ever survived given what Sun has done to it |
| 17:24.27 | sjansen | What do you mean? Sun has made some great contributions to Unix. |
| 17:24.54 | sjansen | Of the proprietary Unix I programmed for, Sun was the least painful. (Although I still missed Linux.) |
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| 17:53.14 | ^Migs^ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs_mlblpdJ8 |
| 17:53.25 | ^Migs^ | that Bumbie bit is SO funny |
| 18:00.27 | tensai | sjansen: they may be the best of the worst. all these small differences from linux are quite annoying |
| 18:01.22 | tensai | granted, I'm used to LInux. but these Linux affordances seem so obvious compared to Solaris that I'm surprised they haven't incorporated any of them. |
| 18:01.58 | levi | tensai: What kinds of things are you referring to? |
| 18:02.06 | tensai | 40+ services enabled by default in inetd.conf? |
| 18:02.41 | tensai | levi: sh vs bash, vi vs vim |
| 18:02.51 | tensai | I've got 20 mount points for who knows what |
| 18:03.04 | tensai | netstat -l |
| 18:03.35 | levi | Solaris is commercial software, and is bound by different forces than Linux is. |
| 18:03.59 | levi | You /can/ install bash and vim on Solaris if you want them. |
| 18:04.45 | levi | IIRC, there are repositories of free software packaged for installation on Solaris, so it shouldn't even be very difficult. |
| 18:05.17 | tensai | that's the point I'm at, trying to install from sunfreeware.com |
| 18:05.32 | tensai | but I've got no wget to grab these packages |
| 18:05.47 | sjansen | http://www.sunfreesoftware.com/ |
| 18:05.49 | tensai | wait, I could use scp. we discovered that ssh is installed after all |
| 18:07.13 | sjansen | OpenSSH or SSH.com added by an admin after install? |
| 18:08.03 | tensai | SSH-2.0-Sun_SSH_1.1 is the banner. I don't think we've installed anything yet. this is a new box I'm trying to lock down because it has to sit outside our firewall. |
| 18:13.30 | sjansen | Oh, yeah, I forgot about SunSSH. IIRC, it's a fork of OpenSSH, but not so lovingly maintained. |
| 18:26.27 | goozbach | dump on sjansen |
| 18:26.39 | goozbach | now my flight is delayed |
| 18:26.49 | goozbach | jerknugget |
| 18:27.06 | sjansen | Watch it buddy, if you're not careful I'll get you added to the no fly list. |
| 18:27.34 | sjansen | Remember, I've still got pictures. |
| 18:27.41 | goozbach | bah |
| 18:27.58 | goozbach | i'll just modify my appearance |
| 18:28.44 | goozbach | besides, i was wearing that grass skrit on my head. you cant see any of my face 'cpt for the nose |
| 18:29.30 | sjansen | ~carnivore |
| 18:29.32 | ibot | [carnivore] essentially a Windows 2000 based packet sniffer and set of filters that the FBI uses |
| 18:30.58 | goozbach | YAY! I GET TO RIDE A TURBOPROP! |
| 18:31.04 | goozbach | oh boy |
| 18:32.34 | sjansen | From FL to UT? |
| 18:32.58 | sjansen | Make sure your code is easily accessible during flight. |
| 18:33.10 | sjansen | s/code/coat/ |
| 18:33.22 | goozbach | code?? |
| 18:33.38 | goozbach | nm |
| 18:33.50 | goozbach | it cold in the SLC? |
| 18:34.09 | tensai | goozbach: as a makeshift parachute |
| 18:34.10 | sjansen | Melting. But I've been in some cold, small planes. |
| 18:34.44 | sjansen | Worst was a CRJ with just three seats across. |
| 18:35.21 | goozbach | crj's anit bad |
| 18:36.18 | goozbach | air-something tp300 |
| 18:36.35 | sjansen | This one was, cabin temp must've been 60 to 65F. |
| 18:36.43 | goozbach | one coloum of seats |
| 18:36.58 | goozbach | 12 rows |
| 18:37.02 | sjansen | They could something like that? |
| 18:37.29 | sjansen | I thought the smallest they came was Cessna with 2 side by side. |
| 18:37.34 | sjansen | s/could/build/ |
| 18:37.42 | levi | Interesting description of 'Turing equivalent' vs. 'Turing complete': http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/01/turing_equivalent_vs_turing_co.php |
| 18:38.23 | goozbach | and the pilot from that movie about the great race |
| 18:39.41 | goozbach | besides... i tarzan |
| 18:40.04 | goozbach | i'm being chased bt streetposts |
| 18:40.22 | goozbach | you and the dog need to hide in this tangello |
| 18:40.37 | goozbach | pineapple! |
| 18:44.05 | sjansen | levi: Neat. It would be fascinating if someone could show "that some part of the basic biochemical processes that make up life are equivalent to a Turing-complete computation." |
| 18:52.31 | sjansen | levi: Have you played with Scala? |
| 19:07.42 | levi | sjansen: Yup. |
| 19:07.54 | levi | sjansen: I wrote a programming assignment for my AI class in it. |
| 19:10.14 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-167-228-230.dnvtco56.dynamic.covad.net) |
| 19:10.42 | levi | Scala is an interesting language. It brings object-orientation to the core of an ML-style functional language. |
| 19:10.59 | sjansen | I've just started learning it. Looks fun. And it's pattern matching abilities may be just what I need to build a large XML tranforming system. |
| 19:11.27 | levi | Scala ought to be very well-suited to that, since it seems that was one of their primary design targets. |
| 19:11.33 | sjansen | How'd the assignment turn out? |
| 19:11.42 | sjansen | Any unfortunate surprises? |
| 19:12.21 | levi | Well, it took me a while to get comfortable with it, and I'm not sure whether I really captured the idiomatic Scala style or not. |
| 19:12.53 | levi | The interplay of objects, inheritance, etc. with the type system can get complicated. |
| 19:13.44 | levi | And I managed to write programs that crashed while I was learning. |
| 19:14.00 | levi | (That never happened with OCaml) |
| 19:14.59 | levi | The problems were due to creating arrays and using elements before they were initialized. |
| 19:16.11 | levi | I was doing a genetic algorithm program, though, which is quite a different beast from XML transformation. |
| 19:16.30 | levi | The ML family has always excelled at parsing/transformation activities. |
| 19:17.41 | levi | Anyway, I still think Scala is a cool language, but my enthusiasm for it is somewhat tempered now. |
| 19:18.03 | ^Migs^ | I still think English is a cool language, despite the British corruption of it |
| 19:21.33 | levi | Probably my best language experience in that class was writing a first-order logic theorem prover in Scheme. |
| 19:22.26 | sjansen | Who chose the languages? |
| 19:23.21 | levi | I did. |
| 19:23.55 | levi | I used OCaml for a couple of projects, Scheme for one, Scala for one, and F# (which is only slightly different from OCaml) for one. |
| 19:26.58 | levi | I don't think I'm going to do that again. It took a lot longer to code the assignments than it would have if I wasn't also learning the languages I was using. |
| 19:29.37 | sjansen | heh |
| 19:32.36 | levi | Combining that extra time with my full-time job and a wife and new baby was pretty taxing. But it was certainly interesting, and I learned a lot. |
| 19:32.49 | tensai | does solaris have a firewall ala iptables? |
| 19:34.57 | sjansen | ~hug mplayer |
| 19:35.46 | levi | tensai: Sun has a firewall product for Solaris called SunScreen or something like that. |
| 19:36.03 | tensai | catchy |
| 19:36.48 | levi | Hmm, Solaris 10 may have an ipfilter-style firewall built-in, though. |
| 19:37.10 | levi | http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/security.jsp |
| 19:47.58 | Jayce^ | sjansen, looks like dave smith is just trying to get you back out to writing long rants on plug again.. |
| 19:51.16 | sjansen | Because of an innocent build system question? |
| 19:52.58 | Jayce^ | exactly... |
| 19:53.24 | Jayce^ | right up your alley for a lengthy diatribe about the pro's and cons of various make systems.. |
| 19:54.35 | levi | I think it's Jayce^ who really wants the long rants. :) |
| 20:14.50 | ^Migs^ | why am I not considered bilingual if I know English and C++? |
| 20:16.26 | ^Migs^ | dang, I'm having WAY too much fun with this missile launcher |
| 20:16.40 | ^Migs^ | sometimes while I'm waiting for a process to finish, I just sit here and make it move around |
| 20:38.59 | ^Migs^ | sweet, I'm getting an ipaq |
| 20:40.27 | sjansen | To be considered multilingual you need to know more than just C++. At a minimum, you must know: 1 imperative language, 1 objected oriented language, 1 functional language (imperative or OO programming in a multi-paradigm language doesn't count), 1 "scripting" language, and 1 "Web" language (HTML/CSS doesn't count, shame on you for even asking) |
| 20:40.49 | dataw0lf | I'm multilingual, then. |
| 20:43.23 | Jayce^ | sjansen, or they need to be fluent in portuguese too... |
| 20:44.03 | sjansen | Speaking Portuguese is a higher state of being than multilingualism. |
| 20:44.49 | Jayce^ | btw sjansen, you'd enjoy a shop redbeard1 found the other day |
| 20:44.58 | Jayce^ | some brasilians opened up a hot dog place here.. |
| 20:45.07 | Jayce^ | Cachorro quente, tipo brasileiro |
| 20:45.22 | sjansen | Onde? |
| 20:45.39 | Jayce^ | state street, right as it heads down into provo from orem |
| 20:45.55 | Jayce^ | right next door to Uncle Sams surplus |
| 20:46.33 | sjansen | Man, now I'm going to have to make a pilgrimage before it closes. |
| 20:46.42 | Jayce^ | plug meetings :) |
| 21:01.01 | levi | sjansen: You forgot logic languages, concatenative languages, and relational languages. |
| 21:01.07 | *** join/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 21:03.55 | *** join/#utah mrpull_ (n=mrpull@205.158.184.126) |
| 21:05.22 | sjansen | While certainly useful, I wouldn't consider them as critical to functioning in modern society... Well, except for SQL. |
| 21:06.20 | levi | Which is a relational query language. |
| 21:07.23 | levi | And Forth and Prolog and their descendants are cool, if not really at the forefront of the mass consciousness right now. |
| 21:15.08 | findlay | redbeard1: guess what was number 5 on google for cookie howto? |
| 21:15.17 | findlay | except it's the wrong kind of cookies |
| 21:16.27 | levi | sjansen: Joy and Factor are relatively new and somewhat interesting stack-based languages. And the execution model (threaded interpretation) of Forth systems is interesting to study. |
| 21:17.13 | redbeard1 | findlay: cookie how to what? |
| 21:17.51 | redbeard1 | that's good google juice. awesome! |
| 21:23.34 | levi | sjansen: And Prolog has some interesting descendants too, like Oz. |
| 21:31.00 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 21:33.54 | findlay | redbeard1: the web kind of cookie |
| 21:33.56 | findlay | the icky kind |
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| 21:35.12 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@67.108.236.230.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:44.07 | levi | I need better recordings of my Grieg stuff. The only stuff I have is 128kpbs mp3s from emusic.com |
| 21:45.54 | levi | Huh, Tom Lord is apparently still somewhat active in the Scheme community. |
| 21:46.04 | findlay | haha, mp3 |
| 21:46.38 | levi | findlay: Well, I can listen to it and it didn't cost me anything beyond my emusic subscription fee, and I probably wouldn't have found it otherwise. |
| 21:51.49 | levi | Man, I love gnus for mail list reading. |
| 21:53.53 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanb@oalug/member/tristanbob) |
| 22:04.17 | findlay | levi: what's so great about it? |
| 22:07.18 | levi | I can arbitrarily sort things into different groups based on whatever expressions I want, and it handles mail lists like newsgroups. |
| 22:12.13 | findlay | so if somebody expresses malcontent you can put it into the alt.malcont group? |
| 22:12.52 | levi | Well, you could call the group whatever you wanted. |
| 22:13.03 | findlay | sweet |
| 22:14.38 | levi | It also renders HTML email in text format a la lynx or w3m. |
| 22:15.49 | findlay | when I use a lynx or elinks --dump mimetype for mutt it always indents the text really far which is very annoying |
| 22:20.00 | levi | gnus renders it in a regular emacs buffer. There's just a little flag in the modeline that says it's html content. |
| 22:20.01 | findlay | knowing the sigma of a gaussian distro, how can I find the distance cutoff from the mean that will give me 0.9 of the area? |
| 22:20.27 | findlay | 0.9_area = \sigma*A. What is A? |
| 22:21.00 | findlay | the one thing I don't like about emacs is the dog ugly gui |
| 22:21.14 | levi | What dog ugly gui? |
| 22:21.22 | findlay | with vim and even gvim I don't have to look at the gui if I don't want to |
| 22:21.40 | findlay | the 1993 icons and 3d simulation and stuff |
| 22:22.03 | levi | You don't have to with emacs either. |
| 22:22.36 | findlay | true |
| 22:22.36 | findlay | but gvim at least uses native gtk2 widgets |
| 22:23.30 | levi | So does the cvs version of gnu emacs. |
| 22:23.53 | levi | Though I typically have the menus and scrollbars and such turned off. |
| 22:24.02 | findlay | me too |
| 22:24.13 | findlay | for terminals and gvim that is |
| 22:24.40 | findlay | but the scrollbar can show useful information even if you don't use it |
| 22:25.35 | levi | Nevertheless, I leave it turned off for space-efficiency. |
| 22:25.42 | levi | I can tell how big the buffer is from the modeline. |
| 22:25.52 | findlay | but can you tell where you are? |
| 22:26.10 | levi | Yes. |
| 22:26.30 | findlay | I think a scrollbar in this context gives you much more intelligible information about location than a text printout |
| 22:26.33 | Tene | but can you tell where I am? |
| 22:27.07 | findlay | you just glance at it and you know if you're at the top or bottom or how fast this script is outputting text |
| 22:27.34 | levi | findlay: I could turn it back on easily if I needed it. |
| 22:27.36 | findlay | all without the extra layer of translating text into positional information |
| 22:28.02 | levi | findlay: Typically the modeline information works well enough for me, though. |
| 22:28.04 | findlay | Tene: my scrollbars know everything! |
| 22:28.52 | findlay | levi: but the point is it's information without words. Much like mathematical proofs without exposition |
| 22:29.18 | levi | findlay: The numbers in the modeline aren't words, either. |
| 22:29.35 | sjansen | http://damienkatz.net/2007/01/the_volkswagen.html |
| 22:29.49 | findlay | they are alphanumeric symbols |
| 22:30.02 | findlay | requiring you to mentally translate a number into graphical information |
| 22:30.30 | levi | Position in a buffer is not graphical information. |
| 22:30.37 | findlay | why not? |
| 22:31.22 | levi | It is conceptually independent of its representation. Why would I need to change the concept 'halfway through the buffer' to a graphical representation in order to understand it? |
| 22:31.40 | findlay | I don't understand what you're saying |
| 22:32.03 | levi | One could represent it as a scrollbar with the slider halfway down the side, or one could just as easily represent it as the string '50%' |
| 22:32.08 | findlay | does your modeline literally say 'halfway through the buffer'? |
| 22:32.21 | findlay | if not then you're translating a number into words |
| 22:32.34 | levi | No. |
| 22:32.48 | levi | One does not need to translate a number into words to understand it. |
| 22:32.49 | findlay | it's really just a matter of one symbology versus another |
| 22:33.01 | findlay | yeah huh |
| 22:33.12 | levi | Indeed; neither symbology is inherent in the concept, so there's no need to do translation from one symbology to the other before understanding can happen. |
| 22:33.43 | levi | If you happen to like the visual representation provided by the scrollbar better, by all means turn it on! |
| 22:34.00 | levi | I'm certainly not trying to talk you out of it. |
| 22:34.08 | findlay | I never said you *have* to translate one to another |
| 22:34.31 | levi | No, you just said that I do. |
| 22:34.38 | findlay | well whatever |
| 22:34.57 | findlay | whatever incogent blather I spewed up there was probably fallacious |
| 22:35.23 | findlay | I'm torn, though. Getting rid of it frees up a lot of space |
| 22:35.54 | levi | M-x scroll-bar-mode toggles it on, though, and then I get to see it in all its themed gtk2 goodness. |
| 22:36.00 | Tene | how wide is your scrollbar? |
| 22:36.16 | Tene | Mine is about one column of letters, I think... |
| 22:36.24 | findlay | mine is about 2 |
| 22:36.35 | findlay | (I have small letters) |
| 22:36.52 | Tene | You are a small letter. |
| 22:37.01 | findlay | nuh uh |
| 22:37.08 | Tene | yeah huh |
| 22:37.08 | findlay | ~letter Tene |
| 22:37.19 | Tene | ~small findlay |
| 22:37.26 | findlay | ~large Tene |
| 22:37.33 | Tene | ~number findlay |
| 22:37.51 | findlay | ~number me? |
| 22:37.55 | levi | Turning the bar off saves enough space for about 3 characters on my screen. |
| 22:40.22 | findlay | ~number Tene |
| 22:41.01 | findlay | I think ibot is having problems |
| 22:41.11 | Tene | ~findlay levi |
| 22:41.18 | Tene | ibot: ping |
| 22:41.19 | ibot | pong |
| 22:41.25 | Tene | ibot: findlay tene |
| 22:41.43 | levi | At least on my desktop. Space is more important on my laptop, where it makes a difference of being able to have non-overlapping 80-column windows next to each other or not. |
| 22:42.13 | sjansen | Friends don't let friends use emacs. Or scroll bars. Or mice. |
| 22:43.10 | sjansen | Thank you, friend. |
| 22:45.31 | findlay | ibot: restart |
| 22:45.32 | ibot | this aint no stinkin' winblows, or "Microsoft Windows: Your mouse has moved; please restart for changes to take effect" |
| 22:45.36 | findlay | ibot: reboot |
| 22:45.38 | ibot | Not on your life cowboy :(, or are you using Window$? |
| 22:45.52 | findlay | ibot: fine, be broken forever for all I care! |
| 22:55.07 | levi | sjansen: Everyone loves dune buggies! |
| 22:55.59 | findlay | everyone loves dune! |
| 22:56.12 | findlay | except the tacky electric guitar soundtrack |
| 22:56.46 | findlay | ~reboot ibot |
| 23:00.22 | [phoenyx] | I like the part where paul atreides and captain picard fight |
| 23:01.08 | findlay | watching the movie was a major dissapointment after the book |
| 23:01.17 | findlay | I blame George Lucas |
| 23:01.38 | findlay | both for stealing ideas and for making me expect flawless CG |
| 23:05.21 | sjansen | Who would win: Muad'dib or Q? |
| 23:05.56 | findlay | Yoda! |
| 23:06.26 | findlay | Yoda vs Balrog? |
| 23:06.36 | findlay | Yoda, of course |
| 23:06.39 | herlo | Batman |
| 23:07.22 | findlay | Muad'dib vs Q vs the Mule |
| 23:08.02 | findlay | "I see you're going to move your bishop to E2 in 29 moves. Your strategy is worthless" |
| 23:08.31 | findlay | "Aye, but you don't realize the imminent danger of your queen on move 53" |
| 23:16.32 | *** join/#utah mrpull__ (n=mrpull@205.158.184.112) |
| 23:19.58 | goozbach | sjansen: the answer is mr rodgers |
| 23:20.27 | goozbach | he wins the ultimate showdown |
| 23:20.33 | findlay | with a lightsaber? |
| 23:20.48 | findlay | I vote Napoleon Dynamite |
| 23:20.54 | tristanbob | [phoenyx]: I found that enjoyable as well |
| 23:21.00 | findlay | or Pedro, that is |
| 23:21.02 | findlay | I'm confused |
| 23:32.20 | *** part/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13) |
| 23:40.14 | goozbach | gotta love people who get angry over silly stuff |
| 23:40.33 | findlay | man I haven't seen so many pretty girls in one day in a long time |
| 23:50.37 | sjansen | goozbach: Where you at? |
| 23:54.17 | levi | findlay: Where are you seeing pretty girls? |