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| 00:56.51 | findlay | redbeard2! |
| 00:56.57 | findlay | where have you been all these years? |
| 00:59.53 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=xbmodder@69-12-240-206.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 01:00.33 | findlay | Sargun, yea. It's like a happy family here |
| 01:01.26 | maquis | ~lart findlay |
| 01:01.35 | maquis | yup... a nice happy family :) |
| 01:02.08 | findlay | go right ahead, ibot. If you eat something as disgusting as a liver, you deserve it |
| 01:02.24 | maquis | findlay: you don't like liver? |
| 01:02.35 | findlay | um, no |
| 01:02.40 | findlay | should I? |
| 01:04.55 | maquis | it's actually pretty good |
| 01:05.15 | maquis | i just had it right after thanksgiving :) |
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| 03:17.59 | mheath[laptop] | The moment of truth |
| 03:17.59 | mheath[laptop] | after spending all day under a lamp drying out |
| 03:18.08 | mheath[laptop] | will my cell phone work? |
| 03:21.28 | mheath[laptop] | the answer is, apparently, a no |
| 03:23.47 | mheath[laptop] | Its really screwed up |
| 03:23.52 | mheath[laptop] | the battery isn't even charging with it plugged in |
| 03:37.28 | Supaplex | (betos super nachos)++ mmmmm yumm |
| 03:37.46 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=redbeard@64.232.21.146) |
| 03:37.57 | Supaplex | mheath[laptop]: that sucks. how it'd get too wet? |
| 03:53.23 | levi_home | Good evening. |
| 03:53.34 | Supaplex | greetings |
| 03:53.41 | redbeard2 | hey yo |
| 03:53.53 | levi_home | redbeard2: Back to the hotel, eh? |
| 03:53.57 | redbeard2 | yup |
| 03:54.05 | redbeard2 | i just saw the coolest commercial |
| 03:54.16 | levi_home | Why aren't you out living it up on the town? ;) |
| 03:54.20 | redbeard2 | apparently there's a place in arizona called ben franklin plumbing |
| 03:54.29 | redbeard2 | their phone number is 866-867-5309 |
| 03:54.42 | levi_home | Hah. |
| 03:54.48 | redbeard2 | actually, i just walked over to trader joes and back |
| 03:55.06 | levi_home | Ahh, to have a Trader Joe's that close. |
| 03:55.17 | redbeard2 | no kidding, walking distance and all |
| 03:55.36 | levi_home | On the other hand, I'd end up fat and poor. ;) |
| 03:55.48 | redbeard2 | you know, i 've walked close to 14 miles since getting here. |
| 03:55.53 | redbeard2 | (according to the old pedometer) |
| 03:56.31 | levi_home | That's pretty good! |
| 03:56.32 | redbeard2 | my hotel is about 3/4 mile away from the my conference, in one direction |
| 03:56.46 | redbeard2 | and about half a mile from the shopping center in the other direction |
| 03:57.30 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 03:57.33 | redbeard2 | i think next time i stay in phoenix, i'm gonna try and get this hotel again. you don't need a rental car or anything. there's even a free airport shuttle. |
| 03:57.36 | levi_home | I just scalded my finger making spaghetti for dinner, and it's not even very good. :/ |
| 03:57.48 | redbeard2 | dude, that's harsh |
| 03:58.17 | Supaplex | you need to simmer the finger, then it'll taste better. |
| 03:58.22 | Supaplex | wait.. ;) hehe |
| 03:58.28 | levi_home | Shoulda grabbed a collander instead of that stupid thing you hold against the pot. |
| 03:58.51 | redbeard2 | yes. yes, you should have. |
| 03:59.33 | levi_home | Once, I made creme brulee... and then I touched the sugar on top. :P |
| 04:00.10 | redbeard2 | dude, don't worry, no matter how bad a cook you may feel you are, i have officially found worse |
| 04:00.19 | levi_home | Heh. |
| 04:00.24 | redbeard2 | ...as you might have heard, if you'd read this evening's post |
| 04:00.45 | levi_home | Been at school all evening. Need to fire up firefox. |
| 04:01.03 | redbeard2 | i daresay it's my most scathing review of a restaurant to date |
| 04:01.16 | redbeard2 | it's not often i get to refer to a dish as "insulting" |
| 04:09.43 | elg | what do you expect? you're in a city that's too hot for human life populated with more than a million people who haven't figured that out yet. |
| 04:09.47 | levi_home | That's pretty bad all right. |
| 04:11.17 | redbeard2 | elg: it's not so bad in december |
| 04:11.45 | elg | yes, the changing of the seasons is what keeps the morons sufficiently confused |
| 04:11.50 | elg | so as not to move |
| 04:12.20 | redbeard2 | this is only my third time here... first time was in november, second was in december as well. |
| 04:12.41 | redbeard2 | in fact, when i came that second time, i got to see a pretty decent flash flood |
| 04:13.20 | redbeard2 | never been here in july, and i'm okay with that |
| 04:17.21 | redbeard2 | so, there's a mall on the way from my hotel to the confence called the "biltmore fashion park" |
| 04:17.49 | redbeard2 | it's pretty posh. the lowest-end store i saw there was probably california pizza kitchen. |
| 04:18.21 | redbeard2 | all the other stores had names like "saks fifth avenue" and "l'occitane en provence" |
| 04:18.40 | redbeard2 | so i went into a couple to do some christmas shopping for the wife |
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| 04:19.22 | redbeard2 | i expected a lot of disapproving looks, since i was wearing a skull shirt and my biker jacket |
| 04:19.44 | redbeard2 | i guess i forgot i wasn't in utah anymore |
| 04:20.43 | elg | :) |
| 04:22.30 | levi_home | redbeard2: You seem to dress fairly conservatively for the PLUG meetings. At least, I can't remember anything about what you've worn. |
| 04:23.04 | elg | hopefully taht doesn't mean you can't remember him wearing anything |
| 04:25.12 | redbeard2 | um. |
| 04:25.20 | redbeard2 | elg: you scare me |
| 04:25.29 | redbeard2 | oh, but that reminds me |
| 04:25.36 | elg | now you're scaring me |
| 04:25.41 | redbeard2 | i told my instructor here to look at your blog |
| 04:25.47 | redbeard2 | yours and pat eyler |
| 04:26.51 | redbeard2 | he got excited when i mentioned that i knew perl... apparently he's well-versed in a variety of unix scripting languages |
| 04:27.30 | redbeard2 | but apparently he wants to digress into something called ruby. so i told him to go to openclue and look at some of the other poor, lost souls who have taken that path |
| 04:28.36 | redbeard2 | levi_home: i can't remember what i've worn to plug either. usually tshirts, i'm sure. |
| 04:29.12 | levi_home | If people remember anything about my attire, it's probably my hat. |
| 04:29.32 | redbeard2 | you have a hat? |
| 04:29.44 | levi_home | Maybe not. :) |
| 04:30.20 | redbeard2 | you have hair. and glasses. |
| 04:30.23 | redbeard2 | i remember that. |
| 04:30.30 | levi_home | Yup. |
| 04:30.43 | redbeard2 | and an eyepatch. garr! |
| 04:30.49 | redbeard2 | no, wait. |
| 04:31.36 | levi_home | My plug.org avatar does have me in a pirate outfit. |
| 04:31.36 | redbeard2 | how handy |
| 04:31.36 | levi_home | But I've never showed up to a meeting dressed like that. |
| 04:31.36 | redbeard2 | perhaps you should |
| 04:31.39 | redbeard2 | if you want to be remembered |
| 04:32.09 | vontrapp | maybe i should go to plug meetings so people can remember me |
| 04:32.24 | redbeard2 | vontrapp: do i know you? |
| 04:32.36 | vontrapp | redbeard2: maybe |
| 04:32.45 | vontrapp | i think i went to your chicken meeting |
| 04:33.10 | vontrapp | you know, grillin' and chili grindin' |
| 04:33.28 | vontrapp | that was you, right? |
| 04:33.38 | redbeard2 | that was me |
| 04:33.48 | redbeard2 | i blew a circuit |
| 04:33.49 | vontrapp | because you weren't wearing that chef's hat |
| 04:33.55 | redbeard2 | tripped a breaker or something |
| 04:34.16 | redbeard2 | that was when i was enslaved^Wworking at epromo |
| 04:34.30 | vontrapp | mmm, epromo |
| 04:34.38 | redbeard2 | that was when i first met you |
| 04:35.05 | redbeard2 | oh man. i hear JR is still mad at me. |
| 04:35.16 | levi_home | redbeard2: But I've worn my hat! It's a brown suede ivy cap. |
| 04:35.47 | redbeard2 | levi_home: i do vaguely remember you wearing a hat, but i remember nothing of it |
| 04:37.04 | atoponce | when using comcast as the smarthost, it's going to take some time before i see the mail in my inbox, no? |
| 04:37.41 | levi_home | Well, I suppose I should be happy that it didn't seem odd enough to remember. |
| 04:39.13 | redbeard2 | wow! emeril really has decided to phone in his show! |
| 04:42.21 | redbeard2 | atoponce: sorry man, i'm afraid i don't know. |
| 04:42.29 | redbeard2 | (thought i'd answer, since nobody else had) |
| 04:45.05 | elg | redbeard2: really phone in? |
| 04:45.08 | elg | like, on the phone? |
| 04:45.39 | redbeard2 | nah |
| 04:45.54 | atoponce | redbeard2: thx |
| 04:46.04 | redbeard2 | but he actually got his chef to come in from the back kitchen and work the mixer for him |
| 04:50.47 | redbeard2 | emeril just called for his chef again. i've never seen him so helpless! |
| 04:51.19 | redbeard2 | no, wait. i take it back. i recognize this episode from last year. |
| 04:51.32 | redbeard2 | iirc, he ends up totally botching the recipe |
| 04:55.16 | levi_home | Yow, crazy watch: http://www.kronosclub.com/KC/mainX.asp?mnuType=NOVELTIES&mnuNum=RM012&mnuRef=Architecture |
| 04:57.15 | redbeard2 | levi_home: dude, that is probably the sexiest watch i've ever seen |
| 04:57.24 | levi_home | No kidding. |
| 04:57.38 | levi_home | With a price to match, too. |
| 04:58.09 | redbeard2 | yup |
| 04:59.11 | levi_home | Made of platinum, and only 30 exist. |
| 04:59.34 | levi_home | Platinum and other fancy alloys and stuff. |
| 05:05.52 | levi_home | Interesting article on Microsoft Research: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/120606-microsoft-research.html?page=1 |
| 05:08.06 | levi_home | Microsoft Research would be a cool place to work. It's a shame more of their stuff isn't developed more fully. |
| 05:09.32 | spr | one of the new professors at BYU came from MS Research |
| 05:12.45 | Sargun | Cool. |
| 05:12.51 | levi_home | What's he teach? |
| 05:12.59 | levi_home | (Or she, I suppose) |
| 05:13.07 | Sargun | Or it |
| 05:13.21 | spr | He teaches natural language processing. I'm in his class right now actually |
| 05:14.37 | redbeard2 | gotta bail. catch ya all in a couple of days. |
| 05:14.53 | levi_home | Cool, sounds interesting. |
| 05:15.07 | levi_home | Why'd he leave MSR? |
| 05:15.32 | levi_home | Time to settle down and go for the tenure? :) |
| 05:15.55 | vontrapp | ~exchange 400000 eu to usd |
| 05:16.21 | vontrapp | what's the eu really called? |
| 05:16.28 | levi_home | euro, maybe? |
| 05:16.36 | vontrapp | ~exchange 400000 euro to usd |
| 05:16.48 | vontrapp | gadzooks |
| 05:16.50 | levi_home | That's more like it. |
| 05:16.58 | vontrapp | guess i won't be getting that for christmas |
| 05:17.05 | levi_home | Yeah, probably not. :) |
| 05:17.10 | levi_home | It's an art piece, really. |
| 05:17.27 | vontrapp | i like how it has a "Weigth" property that's empty |
| 05:17.49 | vontrapp | it weigth in at, oops, we didn't weigth it |
| 05:18.47 | levi_home | Well, only 30 people will ever care how heavy it feels on their wrists. :) |
| 05:20.51 | vontrapp | do europeans really not do the 399999.99 thing? |
| 05:20.51 | vontrapp | or is it just this one case |
| 05:21.43 | vontrapp | it annoys me to no end that retailers do that |
| 05:21.49 | Sargun | ~exchange 1 euro to usd |
| 05:21.51 | levi_home | What's the point of trying to make it look cheaper? |
| 05:22.37 | vontrapp | i would happily buy something that's 15 dollars right next to the same thing that was 13.99 just out of principle |
| 05:24.37 | vontrapp | if i ever sell things on a website, they will be for dollar amounts |
| 05:27.21 | vontrapp | better yet, i'll run a gas station and sell it on the penny |
| 05:27.27 | vontrapp | non of this 9/10 crap |
| 05:27.54 | vontrapp | ~spell although |
| 05:28.06 | nick125 | although is right |
| 05:28.14 | nick125 | (I think..least) |
| 05:28.21 | nick125 | yeah |
| 05:28.25 | nick125 | google says its right |
| 05:28.27 | nick125 | that means its right |
| 05:31.54 | elg | vontrapp: with tax factored in |
| 05:31.58 | elg | so $15 is $15 |
| 05:32.25 | elg | my mountains are looking pretty nice |
| 05:33.08 | vontrapp | elg: yeah, even better |
| 05:34.04 | vontrapp | i can see why big retailers can't factor the tax in because their in many states, but they still could not do the .99 crap |
| 05:35.02 | elg | hans.fugal.net/tmp/organ_mountains.jpg |
| 05:37.45 | levi_home | "Slew John B." ? |
| 05:38.00 | levi_home | How are you generating your mountains? |
| 05:38.08 | levi_home | And they are looking pretty cool. |
| 05:39.49 | levi_home | Are you referring to the song 'Sloop John B.'? |
| 05:46.01 | Sargun | Are there any easy algorithms for fluid simulations? |
| 05:46.30 | levi_home | Heh. |
| 05:46.51 | Sargun | or a way to communicate with some fun 3d program (like blender, or maya) and give them commands to move an object through water |
| 05:47.03 | levi_home | My guess is that they all involve more math than you've taken. |
| 05:52.15 | Sargun | Well, I'm going to have some guys who have taken calculus 1 |
| 05:53.52 | nick125 | blender has a chat thing :p |
| 05:54.02 | nick125 | (its a plugin, if I remember correctly) |
| 05:58.44 | Sargun | I'll have a development team, Yay@! |
| 05:58.54 | Sargun | s/y@!/y!/ |
| 05:59.20 | nick125 | for what? |
| 06:12.02 | Sargun | nick125, School project |
| 06:12.13 | nick125 | ha |
| 06:12.14 | nick125 | h |
| 06:19.08 | levi_home | Sargun: Here you go: http://graphics.ethz.ch/~mattmuel/publications/sca03.pdf |
| 06:19.21 | levi_home | That's how you can simulate fluids. |
| 06:19.26 | levi_home | Good luck! ;) |
| 06:20.07 | Sargun | Thanks :-) |
| 06:22.24 | levi_home | Apparently, the general idea is to do the calculations based on a set of spheres, and on every update you use a technique to find a surface that covers them. |
| 06:22.53 | levi_home | So you don't draw the spheres (aka particles), but you use their positions to calculate the surface of the fluid. |
| 06:23.40 | levi_home | It would probably help to start out in 2-d and just draw circles, and see if you can get realistic fluid behavior from them. |
| 06:25.10 | levi_home | But from that paper, you can at least get an idea of the kind of math you're up against. |
| 06:26.50 | levi_home | It's quite a bit more advanced that Calc 1. |
| 06:29.23 | Sargun | Yeah |
| 06:29.24 | Sargun | Ack |
| 06:29.31 | levi_home | I'd guess you'd need a solid understanding of linear algebra, calculus, vector calculus, and numerical analysis. |
| 06:29.38 | Sargun | Do you know of any game/game engine |
| 06:29.55 | levi_home | Well, I think blender does particle simulations. |
| 06:29.58 | Sargun | which we could simulate a vehicle and move it through space |
| 06:30.14 | levi_home | I haven't really kept up on game engines. |
| 06:30.26 | Sargun | levi_home, Can blender communicate with an external script to control the vehicle |
| 06:31.11 | levi_home | Beats me. |
| 06:31.35 | levi_home | I haven't touched blender since something like '95 or '96, IIRC. |
| 06:50.40 | levi_home | Sargun: Oh, I forgot differential equations, though they're usually a prerequisite to numerical analysis. |
| 06:51.11 | Sargun | Time to screw with Blender |
| 06:51.14 | Sargun | or something easier |
| 06:51.19 | levi_home | I don't even know most of that math aside from the ability to recognize it. |
| 06:51.44 | levi_home | And that's only because there's a lot of good math articles on Wikipedia. :) |
| 06:53.27 | levi_home | Anyway, computer simulation generally requires quite a bit more math than is covered in high school. I'm sure you could pick it up if you were dedicated and ambitious enough, though. |
| 06:53.52 | levi_home | If you're intersted in computer graphics, I'd start with linear algebra. |
| 06:55.21 | levi_home | That will get you enough to draw and move 3d images. |
| 06:56.31 | levi_home | Then you'll need some physics; some basic classical mechanics will do. Then, calculus and numerical methods of integration will give you the tools to simulate mechanics in the computer. |
| 06:57.11 | levi_home | At that point, you could probably figure out how to write something like bzflag. |
| 07:00.43 | levi_home | Although there's a lot of computer science you'd need, too; efficient data structures for storage of your world objects; algorithms for collision detection; hidden feature removal techniques, AI methods, etc. |
| 07:01.45 | levi_home | Of course, there are books that can teach you the basics of all this stuff; smart people have already figured it out, so you don't have to have the same understanding they did. |
| 07:03.03 | levi_home | But if you're ever tempted to believe you don't need math... well, you're severely limiting yourself as a programmer if you do. |
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| 07:41.12 | findlay | flightgear++ |
| 07:41.16 | findlay | ! |
| 07:41.24 | findlay | flightgear+= a million! |
| 07:41.45 | findlay | why did nobody tell me of this before?! |
| 07:42.11 | findlay | (and Canada) |
| 07:43.33 | findlay | heh, bzflag and its fake physics (: |
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| 14:55.22 | ^Migs^ | The Seminole Tribe of Florida is buying the Hard Rock business, including its massive collection of rock 'n' roll memorabilia, in a $965 million deal with British casino and hotel company Rank Group PLC, the tribe announced Thursday....In addition to its two Seminole Hard Rock hotels & casinos, the Seminole Tribe owns and operates five other casinos in Florida. More than 90 percent of the tribe's budget now comes from gaming revenue. |
| 14:55.42 | ^Migs^ | the indians are taking back America! |
| 15:00.50 | ^Migs^ | and apparently invading England |
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| 15:12.44 | jsmith | ^Migs^: Not just the Seminoles... the Choctaw Tribe in Mississippi is doing the same, as are many other tribes |
| 15:13.38 | ^Migs^ | they're all buying Hard Rock? |
| 15:13.58 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 15:14.08 | ^Migs^ | omg what are we gonna do?! |
| 15:14.28 | ^Migs^ | maybe we should invite the Spaniards over |
| 15:16.35 | jsmith | Naw, Red Hat is already taking over Spain... |
| 15:25.54 | goozbach | dapper is the release before edgy? correct? |
| 15:26.16 | goozbach | go to work for Red Hat |
| 15:26.25 | goozbach | that's what we can do |
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| 15:38.24 | Sargun | ~dividebyzero |
| 15:38.43 | Sargun | ibot, dividebyzero is Imagine you're landing on an aeroplane and the automatic pilot's working," he suggests. "If it divides by zero and the computer stops working - you're in big trouble. If your heart pacemaker divides by zero, you're dead. |
| 15:38.44 | ibot | okay, Sargun |
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| 15:45.37 | elg | -lart tuple |
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| 16:01.01 | dataw0lf | g'morning |
| 16:02.08 | SB1-Work | Yeah, sure. Why not. |
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| 16:04.50 | dataw0lf | having a tough day already? |
| 16:06.15 | maquis | dataw0lf: we're up already.. that makes it a tough day |
| 16:06.38 | dataw0lf | jeez, I got two hours of sleep, and I'm happy to be up. |
| 16:07.00 | maquis | y? |
| 16:07.08 | graphyx | dataw0lf: Were you not expecting to be up? |
| 16:07.11 | graphyx | er.. to not be up again? |
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| 16:08.22 | dataw0lf | Nah, I just had some personal code to finish so I sacrificed some sleep. |
| 16:08.35 | graphyx | fair enough. |
| 16:09.56 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:10.52 | maquis | dataw0lf: but why are you happy to be up? |
| 16:11.39 | graphyx | cause he doesn't live in Utah any more? |
| 16:12.11 | dataw0lf | heh. that's one of the reasons! No, but seriously, I just like my job and like being here. |
| 16:12.31 | maquis | dataw0lf: cool |
| 16:12.37 | maquis | i like my job too... but mornings are still rough |
| 16:13.15 | dataw0lf | it could have something to do with the three cups of coffee I've had |
| 16:13.43 | graphyx | like the somewhat recent cartoons by dilbert? |
| 16:14.30 | dataw0lf | I dunno, I don't read Dilbert. |
| 16:14.44 | maquis | dataw0lf: you don't read dilbert??? |
| 16:16.15 | elg | http://hans.fugal.net/tmp/organs.png |
| 16:16.35 | maquis | today's dilbert is funny... (and frighteningly true) |
| 16:18.25 | dataw0lf | maquis: Not too often |
| 16:19.50 | dataw0lf | I stick with Penny Arcade and User Friendly |
| 16:20.04 | graphyx | user friendly is the bomb. |
| 16:20.04 | maquis | dataw0lf: userfriendly is good today, too :) |
| 16:20.25 | SB1-Work | mmm, penny arcade |
| 16:20.35 | dataw0lf | maquis: yea it is. |
| 16:21.11 | dataw0lf | http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20061205 I like that one |
| 16:21.34 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 16:22.07 | mheath[laptop] | 3 days to go. Yah. |
| 16:23.37 | stuporglue_ | NOOOooo. Foxtrot is going to stop doing dailies. http://www.amuniversal.com/ups/newsrelease/?view=468 |
| 16:27.02 | mheath[laptop] | -weather 60088 |
| 16:27.02 | brac | couldn't find weather data for 60088 |
| 16:34.42 | mheath[laptop] | ~weather 60088 |
| 16:35.08 | mheath[laptop] | I thought one of the bots could do it by zipcode. |
| 16:37.25 | elg | airnav.com |
| 16:37.28 | mheath[laptop] | Great Lakes, IL |
| 16:37.28 | mheath[laptop] | |
| 16:37.28 | mheath[laptop] | 9°F |
| 16:37.29 | mheath[laptop] | Clear |
| 16:37.29 | mheath[laptop] | Wind: W at 16 mph |
| 16:37.29 | mheath[laptop] | Humidity: 61% |
| 16:37.33 | mheath[laptop] | erm |
| 16:37.36 | elg | you can get nearby airports by zip |
| 16:37.41 | mheath[laptop] | sorry, I copied and pasted that in the wrong channel |
| 16:37.44 | elg | and the bots use airport codes |
| 16:37.55 | elg | rather, the weather codes coincide with airport codes usually |
| 16:37.59 | mheath[laptop] | Well, the closest airport is probably going to be chicago o'hare |
| 16:38.25 | mheath[laptop] | Which is a good 45 minutes south |
| 16:39.35 | elg | oh, i guess it doesn't do zip. but it does city |
| 16:39.47 | mheath[laptop] | where/how? |
| 16:40.20 | elg | http://www.airnav.com/airport/33MI |
| 16:40.38 | elg | -weather 33MI |
| 16:40.41 | brac | couldn't find weather data for 33MI |
| 16:41.00 | elg | -weather KIMT |
| 16:41.01 | brac | 35 minutes ago, on Thu Dec 07 16:06:00 UTC 2006, the wind was blowing at a speed of 9.26 meters per second (20.71 miles per hour), with gusts to 14.92 meters per second (33.37 miles per hour), from the North/Northwest at KIMT. The temperature was -11 degrees Celsius (12 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1028 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 66.5%. There were overcast clouds at a height of 853 meters |
| 16:41.01 | brac | (2800 feet). Current weather is Light Snow . There was of precipitation in the last hour. |
| 16:41.36 | elg | oh, look on the right there's the code for the nearest |
| 16:41.38 | mheath[laptop] | elg, thats nowhere near where I'm looking for |
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| 16:41.55 | mheath[laptop] | I'm looking for Great Lakes, Illinois |
| 16:42.13 | mheath[laptop] | Thats for "Great Lakes Airport" in Michigan |
| 16:43.19 | elg | nearby cities? |
| 16:43.24 | dataw0lf | -weather OS21 |
| 16:43.25 | brac | couldn't find weather data for OS21 |
| 16:43.44 | dataw0lf | -weather ORD |
| 16:43.46 | brac | couldn't find weather data for ORD |
| 16:43.50 | mheath[laptop] | elg, like I said, chicago will be the closest, probably |
| 16:43.55 | mheath[laptop] | -weather KORD |
| 16:43.55 | brac | 53 minutes ago, on Thu Dec 07 15:51:00 UTC 2006, the wind was blowing at a speed of 7.20 meters per second (16.11 miles per hour), with gusts to 12.35 meters per second (27.62 miles per hour), from the Northwest at KORD. The temperature was -11.7 degrees Celsius (10.9 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1034 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 60.4%. There were a few clouds at a height of 732 meters (2400 |
| 16:43.56 | brac | feet). |
| 16:44.06 | mheath[laptop] | Lovely |
| 16:44.08 | elg | dude, there's like 6 airports in chicago proper alone |
| 16:44.11 | mheath[laptop] | Thats where I get to spend two months =\ |
| 16:44.23 | dataw0lf | -weather KRNO |
| 16:44.24 | brac | 48 minutes ago, on Thu Dec 07 15:56:00 UTC 2006, the wind was calm at KRNO. The temperature was -6.1 degrees Celsius (21.0 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1029 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 73.8%. The sky was clear. |
| 16:44.41 | mheath[laptop] | Where is KNO? |
| 16:44.44 | mheath[laptop] | *KRNO |
| 16:44.52 | dataw0lf | Reno |
| 16:45.06 | dataw0lf | elg: Well, I think there's 3 major airports |
| 16:45.16 | dataw0lf | O'Hare, Midway, and the one in Gary. |
| 16:45.28 | elg | major, yes |
| 16:45.46 | dataw0lf | Meigs field is gone.. |
| 16:45.56 | mheath[laptop] | google maps will save me :) |
| 16:46.00 | dataw0lf | there's the one in Rockford, it's kinda tiny. |
| 16:46.04 | mheath[laptop] | "airport near Great Lakes, Illinois" |
| 16:46.07 | mheath[laptop] | ~praise Google Maps |
| 16:46.09 | ibot | All hail Google Maps! |
| 16:46.13 | dataw0lf | those are the only ones I know of |
| 16:46.15 | elg | great lakes, il is no more than 10 or 15 miles from downtown chicago |
| 16:46.20 | mrpull | mheath[laptop]: did your phone spring back to life? |
| 16:46.29 | elg | http://airnav.com/airports/us/IL |
| 16:46.36 | mheath[laptop] | -weather KUGN |
| 16:46.37 | brac | 55 minutes ago, on Thu Dec 07 15:52:00 UTC 2006, the wind was blowing at a speed of 7.20 meters per second (16.11 miles per hour), with gusts to 9.77 meters per second (21.86 miles per hour), from the West/Northwest at KUGN. The temperature was -12.2 degrees Celsius (10.0 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1033 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 60.3%. The sky was clear. |
| 16:46.41 | mheath[laptop] | OK, thats the closest. |
| 16:46.47 | mheath[laptop] | mrpull: Nope. |
| 16:46.49 | elg | 13 airports in chicago |
| 16:47.13 | elg | (of varying sizes) |
| 16:47.30 | elg | warmer than chicago |
| 16:47.58 | dataw0lf | Chicago uber alles! |
| 16:48.06 | dataw0lf | Greatest city in the world. |
| 16:48.17 | elg | if you want the truly best weather code, though, noaa's website is the best |
| 16:48.48 | elg | http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick.php?CityName=Great+Lakes&state=IL&site=LOT |
| 16:48.53 | elg | waukegan airport |
| 16:49.13 | elg | -weather kugn |
| 16:49.14 | brac | 57 minutes ago, on Thu Dec 07 15:52:00 UTC 2006, the wind was blowing at a speed of 7.20 meters per second (16.11 miles per hour), with gusts to 9.77 meters per second (21.86 miles per hour), from the West/Northwest at KUGN. The temperature was -12.2 degrees Celsius (10.0 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1033 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 60.3%. The sky was clear. |
| 16:49.20 | dataw0lf | I hate Waukegan. |
| 16:49.30 | mheath[laptop] | I just hope it doesn't snow Monday at either SLC or Chicago O'Hare. |
| 16:49.44 | mheath[laptop] | I do NOT want to be stuck at MEPS and that horrible hotel and extra night |
| 16:50.08 | dataw0lf | Unless a blizzard comes off LM, you'll be fine. Very doubtful that one will. |
| 16:50.48 | mrpull | ohare is the worst. I give you a 99% chance that your flight will be totally screwed. |
| 16:51.04 | dataw0lf | O'Hare is like a small country. |
| 16:51.19 | dataw0lf | if you can make it to your flight, you'll probably be ok. |
| 16:51.21 | mheath[laptop] | I'll probably get lost trying to find my way to the USO at O'Hare |
| 16:51.35 | dataw0lf | early December ain't too bad at O'Hare, especially with the recent weather. |
| 16:52.01 | stuporglue_ | Does anyone know of a good Altiris or ghost tutorial for imaging a whole disk (including MBR, and all partitions)? |
| 16:52.20 | mheath[laptop] | stuporglue_, dd if=/dev/hdnx of=backup.img |
| 16:53.04 | mheath[laptop] | erm |
| 16:53.16 | mheath[laptop] | dd if=backup.img of=/dev/hdnx |
| 16:53.18 | mheath[laptop] | :) |
| 16:53.24 | dataw0lf | he didn't ask for the dd command. |
| 16:53.36 | mheath[laptop] | Well, he doesn't need a tutorial to use that. |
| 16:54.04 | stuporglue_ | I'd do that, but the IT school wants to make all incoming students get USB hard drives, and we're going to stick a Ubuntu image on them. The software the school uses either Altiris or Ghost (they have both) |
| 16:54.11 | dataw0lf | http://ghost.radified.com/ |
| 16:54.25 | stuporglue_ | Also, I understood that dd images wouldn't work if the new disk had different geometry or something |
| 16:54.45 | dataw0lf | mheath[laptop]: he will if he has any problems with the dd streaming |
| 16:54.56 | mheath[laptop] | Wouldn't work if the new disk had _smaller_ geometry |
| 16:55.17 | mheath[laptop] | dataw0lf, you shouldn't have any problem. dd does verified copying |
| 16:55.42 | dataw0lf | 'shouldn't' and 'won't' are entirely different concepts. |
| 16:56.43 | mheath[laptop] | My last day at this job! |
| 16:57.03 | stuporglue_ | Thanks for the radified link. It looks better than anything I had found yet |
| 16:57.08 | dataw0lf | np |
| 16:57.43 | dataw0lf | http://wiki.python.org/moin/Advocacy |
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| 17:05.29 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:17.34 | maquis | lol... our sr vp is wandering around our floor in his flannel shirt again today... |
| 17:18.40 | elg | is that casual up there in bigfoot land? |
| 17:19.30 | maquis | jaw has a tradition where from october til after christmas, he wears flannel shirts every day... |
| 17:20.03 | maquis | and yes, it is quite casual here... |
| 17:21.09 | vontrapp | and messy hair |
| 17:22.11 | maquis | you know it's a pretty laid-back work environment when you have a meeting at work, and for the first half-hour of the movie, you're watching a slideshow that is attempting to prove that the sr vp's middle name is "anakin" and that he is actually anakin skywalker... |
| 17:22.22 | levi | It's pretty casual here, at least amongst the engineers, but our VPs generally dress like VPs. |
| 17:22.47 | maquis | (that actually did happen at our meeting for everyone under this sr vp) |
| 17:22.49 | dataw0lf | our VPs and CEO and CTO work in cubicles |
| 17:22.56 | vontrapp | maquis: ooh, i thought you meant that his flannel shirt was "pretty casual here" |
| 17:22.59 | levi | maquis: For some definition of 'laid-back' that includes working like crazy during the holiday season? |
| 17:23.43 | maquis | levi: ok... "laid back" in terms of formality |
| 17:24.09 | levi | OK, I'll buy that. :) |
| 17:28.42 | vontrapp | i still don't get why ooffice insists on selecting the second printer in it's own list that _isn't_ the default printer |
| 17:29.03 | vontrapp | s/that/which/ |
| 17:31.28 | vontrapp | and even when i select delorean, the next time it still select the other one |
| 17:31.35 | vontrapp | stupid oo |
| 17:32.39 | findlay | vontrapp: oo knows that delorean's are only for flying ... and time machines |
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| 17:47.25 | findlay | what's the command that configures X? |
| 17:48.07 | dataw0lf | system-config-display? |
| 17:48.08 | Newsome | vim /etc/X11/xorg.conf |
| 17:48.13 | SB1-Work | I'd tell you if I didn't have X installing |
| 17:48.21 | SB1-Work | xcfg[tab][tab] for me |
| 17:48.28 | ^Migs^ | what a retarded math teacher: http://tinyurl.com/yl47tq |
| 17:48.34 | findlay | dataw0lf: ubuntu system |
| 17:48.44 | SB1-Work | Ah-ha! |
| 17:48.48 | findlay | I've tried Xorg -configure so far but it didn't work |
| 17:48.49 | SB1-Work | findlay, xorg or x11? |
| 17:48.53 | findlay | xorg |
| 17:48.55 | SB1-Work | that answers that |
| 17:49.01 | SB1-Work | xorgcfg (aka xorgconfig) |
| 17:49.42 | findlay | SB1-Work: can't find it |
| 17:49.45 | dataw0lf | findlay: http://www.cyskat.de/dee/progxorg.htm |
| 17:49.52 | findlay | what package does it belong to? |
| 17:50.00 | SB1-Work | No clue, I'm on gentoo |
| 17:50.03 | dataw0lf | xorg-edit? |
| 17:50.15 | SB1-Work | /usr/bin/xorgcfg |
| 17:50.50 | findlay | SB1-Work: do `equery belongs /usr/bin/xorgcfg` |
| 17:51.22 | findlay | dataw0lf: that won't work for me as I can't get X going at all |
| 17:51.30 | SB1-Work | findlay, haha, I don't even have those tools installed. which package do I need for that again? |
| 17:51.37 | levi | ^Migs^: Yes, that is pretty dumb. And the reporter doesn't even realize it. |
| 17:51.52 | dataw0lf | findlay: I'm unsure if there's one for Ubuntu, then. |
| 17:52.28 | findlay | SB1-Work: how about `qfile $(which xorgcfg)` |
| 17:52.39 | findlay | gentoolkit |
| 17:52.44 | findlay | emerge gentoolkit |
| 17:52.53 | SB1-Work | gimme just a sec |
| 17:52.55 | SB1-Work | that was fast |
| 17:52.59 | findlay | emerge portage-utils |
| 17:53.14 | SB1-Work | x11-base/xorg-server-1.0.2-r7 (/usr/bin/xorgcfg) |
| 17:53.15 | findlay | bah |
| 17:53.24 | dataw0lf | emerge from the depths of Hell that Gentoo is |
| 17:53.25 | dataw0lf | ? |
| 17:53.26 | dataw0lf | har har |
| 17:53.35 | findlay | of course ubuntu doesn't build it in the base server package |
| 17:53.42 | ^Migs^ | those poor high school kids are going to be unprepared for real life careers. SOme of those kids are going to go into engineering and stubbornly insisting 0/0=whatever you want. "UR FIRED KTHXBYE" |
| 17:53.43 | levi | If you define division by zero to result in any constant value, whether on the number line or not, then mathematics totally falls apart. |
| 17:54.02 | levi | You can prove all numbers equivalent to one another. |
| 17:54.16 | ^Migs^ | yeah |
| 17:54.44 | findlay | this is just great |
| 17:54.45 | ^Migs^ | pwned |
| 17:54.46 | findlay | no X |
| 17:54.55 | levi | The only reasonable thing to do is leave division by zero undefined. And you have it raise an exception, which you catch and handle somewhere. |
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| 18:11.37 | findlay | as opposed to NO x |
| 18:11.45 | findlay | which my car is having problems with |
| 18:12.05 | findlay | because of the egr valve |
| 18:12.34 | levi | That's unfortunate. |
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| 18:39.02 | vontrapp | mmm, eggnog |
| 18:39.11 | vontrapp | -lart elg_ |
| 18:39.16 | vontrapp | -lart elg |
| 18:48.37 | goozbach | eggnog!!! |
| 18:48.41 | goozbach | yay! |
| 18:50.06 | vontrapp | i like how several people state that x/0 = 1 |
| 18:51.20 | levi | Apparently, there are some more abstract forms of math where x/0 makes sense, but then division is not really the same thing as it is in standard arithmetic. |
| 18:51.54 | levi | And it's certainly not the sort of thing that elementary school kids are going to need to know. |
| 18:52.09 | goozbach | vontrapp: you've shaken my faith of reality |
| 18:52.28 | goozbach | I'm going to end up in a loony bin now! THANK! |
| 18:53.14 | vontrapp | my favorite is countable infinity and uncountable infinity |
| 18:53.15 | levi | vontrapp: The guy himself seems to leave a comment somewhere in the middle. It's too long and gets cut off, though. |
| 18:54.06 | vontrapp | how do we know it was him? did he pgp sign it? |
| 18:54.37 | levi | He apparently defines n/0 to be positive infinity (of the uncountable sort) and -n/0 to be negative infinity (again, of the uncountable sort), and 0/0 to be 'nullity'. |
| 18:56.28 | levi | Has something to do with projective geometry, but my (limited) research on projective geometry says some similar things, but only includes the union of the reals and a single infinity, where negative and positive infinity are equivalent. And 0/0 is still undefined there. |
| 18:56.31 | mrpull | nullity sounds better with a loud strongbad accent |
| 18:56.33 | mrpull | NULLITY! |
| 18:57.40 | levi | So, apparently he's gone and created some /new/ system based on projective geometry and has done some computer theorem proving stuff to show that the axioms he's developed are self-consistent. |
| 18:58.21 | levi | Whether any of it is actually worth anything is beyond me, but he certainly shouldn't be teaching the stuff to kids! |
| 18:58.32 | vontrapp | mayby we should just call x/0 = ix |
| 18:59.23 | vontrapp | and 0/0 = i*0 |
| 18:59.29 | levi | His whole justification was flawed. We already know how to deal with division by zero in computers without having to define some meaning for it. |
| 18:59.39 | levi | vontrapp: Now you're just as bad as those commenters! |
| 18:59.44 | vontrapp | hehe |
| 19:00.09 | vontrapp | i wasn't trying to make fun, i was just pondering |
| 19:00.19 | findlay | levi: what's wrong with teaching it? |
| 19:00.36 | findlay | just because it's useless doesn't mean it's not educational |
| 19:00.37 | vontrapp | i'm to lazy to see why x/0 = ix would or wouldn't work |
| 19:01.15 | findlay | mrpull: I agree |
| 19:01.18 | findlay | (: |
| 19:01.22 | levi | findlay: Teaching some new, un-reviewed mathematical system to elementary school kids? There's limited classroom time, and there are far better things to teach them. |
| 19:01.24 | vontrapp | but really, if imaginary numbers make a number plane instead of a number line, then maybe by dividing by zero we get a number space |
| 19:02.06 | findlay | levi: yeah, like complex analysis. You're right. I didn't think of that |
| 19:02.27 | findlay | vontrapp: the problem with division by zero is that it diverges |
| 19:02.39 | findlay | sqrt(-1) doesn't diverge |
| 19:03.35 | vontrapp | maybe it doesn't diverge |
| 19:03.47 | vontrapp | maybe said divergence is only a representational anomaly |
| 19:07.21 | findlay | ok, do this little experiment |
| 19:07.35 | findlay | lim_{x->0} 1/x |
| 19:07.43 | findlay | lim_{x->0} 1/x = L |
| 19:07.53 | findlay | as x -> 0, L -> ? |
| 19:09.11 | levi | Just because the limit of a function converges as it approaches a division by zero doesn't mean that it's actually defined at the point where division by zero occurs. |
| 19:09.54 | findlay | levi: what do you mean by that? |
| 19:10.26 | findlay | and I never said the limit, L, was defined |
| 19:10.46 | levi | lim_{x->0} 1/x => inf, but 1/x is not defined at x = 0 |
| 19:10.56 | findlay | indeed |
| 19:11.08 | levi | So you're still not dividing by zero. |
| 19:11.48 | findlay | I didn't say the limit was defined |
| 19:12.08 | levi | Well, it's not defined as a real number. |
| 19:12.34 | levi | I guess I see what you're saying now. |
| 19:14.49 | levi | I had forgotten the definition of divergent vs. convergent. |
| 19:16.31 | findlay | just that 1/0 can't be defined simmilar to sqrt(-1) |
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| 19:20.55 | vontrapp | well, you could take lim_{x -> -0} sqrt(x) |
| 19:21.05 | vontrapp | which -> 0 |
| 19:21.29 | vontrapp | but at that point where you actually cross into negative-land is it undefined? |
| 19:22.03 | vontrapp | ok, i guess it actually reaches 0 |
| 19:22.12 | vontrapp | not just approaches |
| 19:22.52 | vontrapp | or does it... hmmmmm |
| 19:24.13 | findlay | no, 0 is not in the domain of sqrt(x) |
| 19:24.32 | findlay | there's a vertical tangent there, at the right-side limit |
| 19:25.29 | findlay | Fermat's not so outdated after all |
| 19:28.01 | ^Migs^ | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5107653974746566254&q=arabian+drift&hl=en |
| 19:28.59 | levi | Wow, an openclue planet blog post about Microsoft that doesn't vilify it! |
| 19:29.35 | elg_ | what a stupid sport |
| 19:29.52 | vontrapp | what sport? |
| 19:30.36 | elg_ | drifting |
| 19:31.06 | findlay | ~vilify microsoft |
| 19:31.12 | elg_ | it's like skiing for idiots with too much money and not enough brains |
| 19:32.18 | levi | Poor, defiled findlay. |
| 19:33.23 | levi | The masses just don't appreciate his rarefied taste and sense of musical seriousness. |
| 19:33.50 | maquis | boy... it sure is amazing that windows thinks it needs to be rebooted all the time |
| 19:34.11 | maquis | and so many people in the world don't think that's odd |
| 19:34.45 | levi | I just stopped letting it download updates. :P |
| 19:34.59 | levi | Once you do that, it stops wanting to reboot all the time. |
| 19:35.23 | maquis | levi: A) that's not an option. B) it still starts working insanely slow every 2 days or so until you reboot |
| 19:36.14 | maquis | although, i am curious as to why it *always* needs to reboot after doing updates |
| 19:36.20 | maquis | that seems kinda silly |
| 19:36.56 | findlay | ~reboot maquis |
| 19:36.59 | ibot | ACTION pushes maquis's reset button |
| 19:38.30 | maquis | i mean... on my linux boxen, i have to actually use 'uptime' to figure out when i last rebooted |
| 19:38.52 | maquis | on windows, i can remember when the past 10 or so reboots were |
| 19:38.57 | findlay | my favorite are program installers that give you a dialog at the end: "done installing. Reboot? <Yes>" |
| 19:39.03 | elg_ | not silly. easy. it's easier to require reboot than to make the system deal with entropy properly |
| 19:39.28 | elg_ | findlay: those are slightly better than the ones that just reboot without a dialog |
| 19:39.42 | maquis | findlay: the windows updater has "do you want to reboot now?" and then has 2 buttons, "yes" and "no", but the "no" button is *always* grayed out |
| 19:39.48 | findlay | guess windows boots aren't as good as linux boots because they need changing so often |
| 19:40.10 | findlay | I prefer shoes myself |
| 19:49.31 | vontrapp | ~reshoe findlay |
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| 20:01.26 | levi | Hey, the nullity guy has a web page: http://bookofparagon.com/ |
| 20:01.41 | maquis | hmmm... |
| 20:12.15 | ^Migs^ | why do stupid people insist their stupid ideas are great? |
| 20:12.21 | findlay | because |
| 20:12.28 | ^Migs^ | that makes me FURIOUS |
| 20:13.24 | findlay | ~annoy ^Migs^ |
| 20:13.26 | ibot | ACTION dances around ^Migs^, poking whenever possible, tickling or doing whatever necessary to annoy ^Migs^ to the maximum amount |
| 20:14.22 | ^Migs^ | omg that's annoying |
| 20:17.49 | vontrapp | my ideas are great |
| 20:20.18 | ^Migs^ | good grief, he's even presenting PAPERS to people and BRAINWASHING them to think his idea is good |
| 20:20.26 | ^Migs^ | THIS MUST BE STOPPED |
| 20:20.48 | vontrapp | oh no! someone in academia is presenting PAPERS!! |
| 20:20.55 | mrpull | ^migs^: how can you be certain it is a bad idea? |
| 20:21.25 | ^Migs^ | isn't it OBVIOUS!?!?! |
| 20:21.29 | vontrapp | the more thorough the review it gets the better |
| 20:22.13 | ^Migs^ | don't you see? He's ignoring bad reviews and only focusing only good. That is NOT the way to improve. |
| 20:22.27 | ^Migs^ | students will grow up not knowing real math |
| 20:22.31 | mrpull | ahhh, now that you type it in caps it is a lot more clear |
| 20:28.00 | vontrapp | he can put good reviews on his own website, you don't have to limit yourself to that one source of information |
| 20:30.48 | goozbach | maths is over rated anyhow |
| 20:31.00 | goozbach | so is grammars and the like |
| 20:33.44 | ^Migs^ | IAW goozbach |
| 20:36.02 | *** join/#utah dgergo (i=applet@host-87-242-9-196.prtelecom.hu) |
| 20:36.13 | dgergo | hello |
| 20:36.51 | goozbach | hosdy |
| 20:37.01 | ^Migs^ | hew |
| 20:37.02 | goozbach | go's u good? |
| 20:37.11 | dgergo | this is an english chat? |
| 20:37.14 | elg_ | go's u bad. |
| 20:37.20 | elg_ | go's cougars good |
| 20:37.30 | goozbach | elg_: a greed! |
| 20:37.43 | elg_ | yes, u's a greed |
| 20:38.11 | dgergo | i little speak english |
| 20:38.21 | elg_ | welcome to the land of practice |
| 20:38.23 | goozbach | dgergo: yes this channel speaks english |
| 20:38.42 | goozbach | I was just yanking your crank when I saw the .hu domain you connected from |
| 20:39.07 | ^Migs^ | everyone in the world really needs to learn English |
| 20:39.15 | ^Migs^ | they're just embarassing themselves when they don't speak English |
| 20:39.33 | goozbach | now elg is just being mean |
| 20:39.34 | dgergo | i learn english but i stupid:D |
| 20:39.37 | elg_ | meet our troll |
| 20:39.43 | ^Migs^ | you're probably not that stupid, dgergo |
| 20:39.51 | goozbach | s/elg/migs/g |
| 20:39.54 | ^Migs^ | you speak English better than most people |
| 20:40.14 | goozbach | sadly most foreigners speak better than most natives |
| 20:40.18 | goozbach | myself included |
| 20:40.32 | goozbach | me not know english!? that's unpossible |
| 20:40.33 | dgergo | where do you live? |
| 20:40.46 | goozbach | most of us live in utah |
| 20:40.50 | dgergo | :O |
| 20:40.52 | goozbach | hence the name of the channel |
| 20:40.56 | dgergo | i live in hungary |
| 20:41.02 | goozbach | I figured |
| 20:41.07 | dgergo | a little country |
| 20:41.25 | goozbach | ok I lied a little |
| 20:41.33 | goozbach | I no longer live in utah |
| 20:41.38 | goozbach | but I was born and raised there |
| 20:41.59 | goozbach | matter of fact the majority of the active people in this channel no longer live in utah |
| 20:42.03 | goozbach | we're all fakes |
| 20:42.14 | elg | except for ^Migs^ |
| 20:42.18 | ^Migs^ | you should move to Utah, dgergo. Much better than Hungary |
| 20:42.23 | goozbach | I wouldn't doubt if we're all bots anyhow |
| 20:42.29 | goozbach | ibot: are you a bot? |
| 20:42.37 | goozbach | ibot: do you have a soul? |
| 20:42.39 | ibot | yes, I have a soul. |
| 20:42.39 | dgergo | i don't live in hungary:( |
| 20:42.51 | ^Migs^ | <dgergo> i live in hungary <dgergo> i don't live in hungary:( |
| 20:42.59 | ^Migs^ | foreigner or not, you're contradicting yourself |
| 20:43.00 | dgergo | opps i don't like live in hungary |
| 20:43.00 | goozbach | ibot: do you dream of electric sheep? |
| 20:43.02 | ibot | yes, I dream of electric sheep. |
| 20:43.06 | goozbach | ohh |
| 20:43.07 | goozbach | good |
| 20:43.11 | goozbach | me too |
| 20:43.19 | findlay | ibot: do you .? |
| 20:43.21 | ibot | yes, I .. |
| 20:43.26 | findlay | interesting |
| 20:43.37 | goozbach | ibot: do you eat pickles with your feet? |
| 20:43.40 | ibot | yes, I eat pickles with your feet. |
| 20:43.51 | goozbach | he he ibot eats pickles with his feet |
| 20:44.05 | ^Migs^ | who doesn't? |
| 20:44.42 | elg | there was a prof at our pizza party today who didn't eat pizza because they all had mushrooms |
| 20:44.52 | elg | apparently he doesn't eat fungus. to the degree of not even picking it off |
| 20:44.57 | ^Migs^ | what an r-tard |
| 20:45.15 | elg | he seems fairly normal otherwise, although he is a thespian |
| 20:45.24 | dgergo | i gone |
| 20:45.25 | elg | probably picked up antifungalism from other thespians |
| 20:45.27 | dgergo | bye |
| 20:45.30 | elg | adios |
| 20:45.48 | *** part/#utah dgergo (i=applet@host-87-242-9-196.prtelecom.hu) |
| 20:55.21 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:250:8dff:fe71:9a6b) |
| 21:00.13 | mheath[laptop] | This is so stupid |
| 21:00.25 | mheath[laptop] | America First credit union apparently thinks HTTPS is worthless |
| 21:00.44 | maquis | "there are plenty of new mistakes for us to make, so it's important that we learn from the old ones" |
| 21:00.47 | mheath[laptop] | SSL Certificates aren't enough to prove to the user than this is indeed America First, oh no! |
| 21:01.07 | mheath[laptop] | We have to make the user choose some stupid graphic, then display it when they log in, so the user can know for sure this is America First |
| 21:01.31 | elg | utah community, the credit union with an IT clue (in my experience) |
| 21:01.51 | maquis | mheath[laptop]: funny... vanguard does that too... |
| 21:01.58 | elg | navy first also |
| 21:02.03 | elg | which I supposed you can join soon enough if not now |
| 21:02.09 | elg | er, navy federal |
| 21:02.13 | maquis | the part that confused me is... if i sign in, and then don't get the image, doesn't that mean i just gave away my username and password? |
| 21:02.15 | elg | navyfcu.org |
| 21:02.17 | mheath[laptop] | elg, Navy Federal does the stupid graphics thing? |
| 21:02.22 | elg | no, they have a clue |
| 21:02.26 | mheath[laptop] | Ah. |
| 21:02.33 | elg | although you do have to remember a silly "access number" |
| 21:02.37 | elg | but that's not an IT thing |
| 21:02.40 | mheath[laptop] | maquis: No |
| 21:02.46 | mheath[laptop] | maquis: you type in your account number |
| 21:02.49 | mheath[laptop] | it displays the image |
| 21:02.54 | mheath[laptop] | you verify its the image you choosed |
| 21:02.56 | mheath[laptop] | then you type in your pin |
| 21:03.13 | maquis | mheath[laptop]: that's not how vanguard does it yet (although supposedly they're planning on changing it) |
| 21:03.47 | mheath[laptop] | I just...don't understand |
| 21:03.59 | maquis | mheath[laptop]: me either... but i've heard worse |
| 21:04.00 | mheath[laptop] | You have freakin' SSL |
| 21:04.22 | mheath[laptop] | This is like a Kindergartners Playschool SSL toy set. |
| 21:04.25 | maquis | there was a site that was mentioned by bruce schneier where passwords had to be at least 8 characters, and include numbers... |
| 21:04.26 | mheath[laptop] | The pretend SSL |
| 21:04.46 | maquis | then, they made you enter the last 4 digits of your ssn in case you forgot your password (no other options for securiyt question) |
| 21:04.53 | mheath[laptop] | maquis: it pisses me off when websites analyze my password for anything other than length, though |
| 21:05.01 | mheath[laptop] | Because that means, for a while, its plain text on their server |
| 21:05.03 | maquis | if you tried to type something in besides 4 numbers, it would complain |
| 21:05.09 | levi | mheath: I think the problem is not that the bank does not understand SSL, but that there are a lot of bank customers that don't understand SSL. |
| 21:05.27 | mheath[laptop] | levi: With modern web servers? |
| 21:05.34 | maquis | so, they took the security of their site from an 8-character password to a 4-digit pin |
| 21:05.42 | mheath[laptop] | Both firefox and IE now give a very specific warning if the SSL cert is invalid |
| 21:05.49 | levi | mheath[laptop]: What does the modernity of web servers have to do with their users? |
| 21:05.56 | maquis | mheath[laptop]: unless they do it in javascript or something... |
| 21:05.58 | mheath[laptop] | erm, with modern web browsers* |
| 21:06.56 | levi | mheath[laptop]: Or browsers. Users tend to ignore SSL cert errors, or ignore the fact that https isn't being used, because they simply don't understand what's going on. |
| 21:07.52 | mrpull | IIRC this phish had a valid SSL cert [ http://www.websense.com/securitylabs/alerts/alert.php?AlertID=412 ] |
| 21:08.27 | elg | users often don't even know to look at the address bar |
| 21:08.36 | elg | if it looks like a bank, they think it is a bank (or ebay) |
| 21:08.38 | elg | or paypal |
| 21:08.53 | mrpull | and if you look here: http://www.websense.com/securitylabs/alerts/ you'll see A LOT of credit union phishes |
| 21:09.12 | maquis | that's why the companies need to work hard to protect their customers from phishing attacks |
| 21:09.14 | mrpull | an SSL cert alone isn't going to protect anyone |
| 21:09.40 | maquis | if a company works hard enough to attack phishers, the phishers are less-likely to attack them |
| 21:09.43 | mrpull | banking sites are going to have to get more "inconvenient" to remain secure |
| 21:10.00 | elg | a small set of images isn't much help though |
| 21:10.07 | mrpull | we'll see more one-time-passwords soon |
| 21:10.19 | elg | it will only reduce the phisher's catch by a factor |
| 21:10.31 | mrpull | and more click-the-random-spot-on-the-screen passwords |
| 21:10.35 | maquis | paypal phishing scams are multiple orders of magnitude more common than amazon phishing scams |
| 21:10.42 | elg | they can choose a random image (or always use the same one) and catch 1/N people still |
| 21:11.03 | mheath[laptop] | mrpull: the thing that troubles me about this America First thing |
| 21:11.11 | elg | maquis: well, paypal is basically raw money |
| 21:11.14 | mheath[laptop] | the "Verify your image" images come from a very small gallery |
| 21:11.15 | maquis | simply because the moment that amazon finds out about a phishing scam, they immediately get the site shut down completely... |
| 21:11.24 | elg | amazon is free books or merchandise at best |
| 21:11.28 | maquis | elg: even ebay scams are orders of magnitude more common than amazon ones.. |
| 21:11.32 | mheath[laptop] | The chances are very good that someone could randomly select an image to display on their phishing site |
| 21:11.43 | mheath[laptop] | And suddenly you have added assurance that this is a valid site, when it is not. |
| 21:12.00 | maquis | amazon makes sure that any phishing scam is shut down within 3-4 hours of it going up |
| 21:12.19 | elg | maquis: that's good |
| 21:12.33 | maquis | because of that, the phishers tend not to attack amazon because we have stopped being low-hanging fruit |
| 21:12.34 | levi | maquis: Amazon is a big, powerful, net-savvy company. Credit unions typically are not. Probably eBay should be doing a better job. |
| 21:12.41 | mheath[laptop] | This technology is just riddled with holes that could make it potentially backfire |
| 21:12.57 | maquis | levi: yeah... ebay/paypal should do a much better job |
| 21:13.04 | levi | mheath[laptop]: That's precisely what elg has been saying. |
| 21:13.40 | mheath[laptop] | Plus, what about this: |
| 21:13.49 | mheath[laptop] | All someone needs to do is get a hold of my account number, NOT my pin |
| 21:13.52 | mheath[laptop] | then they can log onto this site |
| 21:14.04 | mheath[laptop] | See what my chosen picture and text is |
| 21:14.15 | mheath[laptop] | Then send me a very, very, VERY valid looking phishing e-mail |
| 21:14.42 | levi | If they have your name and account number, you are already screwed. |
| 21:14.45 | SB1-Work | Just use my policy: physically step in to the bank whenever you're in doubt. |
| 21:14.49 | SB1-Work | That too |
| 21:15.18 | SB1-Work | Though, all of that and then some is printed on every single check you've ever written |
| 21:15.20 | SB1-Work | So... |
| 21:15.24 | mheath[laptop] | levi: well, I know that, but this makes their technology worthless for dumb people |
| 21:15.28 | mheath[laptop] | Or even fairly intelligent peopel |
| 21:15.51 | levi | mheath[laptop]: I don't see how that follows from your last observation. |
| 21:16.11 | levi | If they have your name and account number, they don't need to send you a phishing email. |
| 21:17.04 | levi | If your bank login is something other than your account number (I hope it is!) then it does apply, I suppose. |
| 21:17.05 | mheath[laptop] | levi: Say I make a phishing site |
| 21:17.13 | mheath[laptop] | For America First |
| 21:17.22 | mheath[laptop] | Stupid people log in |
| 21:17.27 | mheath[laptop] | well, type in their account number |
| 21:17.47 | SB1-Work | ... you've just won. |
| 21:17.50 | mheath[laptop] | I don't provide the correct image and text. They close out the site, seeing that its fradulent |
| 21:18.04 | mheath[laptop] | 1) I now have their account number which, as you say, is useful in itself |
| 21:18.08 | maquis | then you go to america first and put in the account numbers |
| 21:18.15 | maquis | and get the correct pictures for them |
| 21:18.30 | mheath[laptop] | 2) I can now start a new phishing site, where I can provide them with the correct images and text, and get their PIN from them |
| 21:18.31 | SB1-Work | <levi> If they have your name and account number, you are already screwed. |
| 21:19.06 | mheath[laptop] | It's just _dumb_ technology. |
| 21:21.55 | ^Migs^ | yes, it is dumb technology. It's not inherently safer in any way. |
| 21:22.16 | ^Migs^ | I'm still locked out of my AFCU account because I couldn't come up with an answer to those dumb challenge questions |
| 21:24.13 | SB1-Work | I type gibberish into those regardless |
| 21:24.29 | SB1-Work | I'd personally rather not lock additional personal information into some random website |
| 21:24.47 | ^Migs^ | I hate these new regulations |
| 21:24.56 | ^Migs^ | it's because of idiotic users that the rest of us have to suffer |
| 21:26.22 | SB1-Work | The U of U let me initially type in a password to use that didn't conform to their level of password quality, and likewise I locked myself out |
| 21:26.22 | maquis | i was going to type gibberish into the question for vanguard's system, but they have a policy where, if you connect from a different machine from normal, you *have* to answer the question in order to log in |
| 21:26.31 | maquis | i find that silly |
| 21:26.48 | SB1-Work | I'd much rather appear physically in person to change my password rather than provide my mother's maiden name to someone over the phone |
| 21:26.54 | ^Migs^ | actually, that's quite secure |
| 21:27.21 | SB1-Work | Compared to appearing in person and showing several forms of ID? |
| 21:27.27 | ^Migs^ | what about if you're overseas and can't physically appear? |
| 21:27.34 | SB1-Work | Then I'm SOL. |
| 21:27.40 | SB1-Work | You'll note that I'm not overseas. |
| 21:27.43 | ^Migs^ | they have to accommodate everyone |
| 21:28.20 | SB1-Work | And by typing gibberish in for my mother's maiden name.. I further secure myself by not allowing a random to call and answer "Abbot" |
| 21:30.50 | SB1-Work | Mother's maiden name, your high school, nothing like that is "private", and it never will be |
| 21:31.20 | maquis | some of the ones they have on there are amazingly non-private... |
| 21:32.11 | ^Migs^ | AFCU asks you crap like "favorite actress", "favorite movie", "favorite sports team" |
| 21:32.19 | ^Migs^ | "first childhood friend" |
| 21:32.40 | SB1-Work | I'm telling you: gibberish, and then appear in person. |
| 21:32.42 | elg | ibot |
| 21:32.43 | ^Migs^ | "what's your favorite" is not a good type of question. Some of us can't decide. |
| 21:32.55 | SB1-Work | Exactly |
| 21:33.01 | elg | that offends ibot |
| 21:34.59 | goozbach | or what if your tastes change |
| 21:35.01 | goozbach | ? |
| 21:35.11 | goozbach | my favorite actress used to be angenlina jolie |
| 21:35.19 | goozbach | then it was helen hunt |
| 21:35.25 | goozbach | now it's jessica alba |
| 21:35.29 | goozbach | oops |
| 21:35.34 | maquis | even best friend isn't that great... |
| 21:35.37 | maquis | because that changes too |
| 21:35.37 | goozbach | I mean courney cox |
| 21:35.40 | ^Migs^ | helen hunt? wtf? |
| 21:35.48 | goozbach | helen hunt is HOT |
| 21:35.51 | ^Migs^ | NO |
| 21:35.55 | goozbach | as is jodie foster |
| 21:35.55 | ^Migs^ | OLD AND WRINKLY |
| 21:35.59 | ^Migs^ | FTWWTF |
| 21:36.09 | goozbach | matter of fact if I could combine the two... |
| 21:36.11 | ^Migs^ | what are you? 70? |
| 21:36.13 | maquis | i also saw "what is your pet's name". A) people often have multiple pets, and B) what if your pet dies and you get a new one? |
| 21:36.15 | goozbach | oh YEAH! |
| 21:36.31 | ^Migs^ | I don't want to know what kind of spawn of hell a hunt + foster could reproduce |
| 21:37.19 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@67.108.236.230.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:37.22 | goozbach | ^Migs^: Dakota Fanning |
| 21:37.29 | SB1-Work | ... that went very weird places very fast |
| 21:38.02 | ^Migs^ | http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/home/seasonal/SantaTrack.html |
| 21:38.19 | jsmith | Hey, quick db question... since I'm stumped |
| 21:38.27 | jsmith | brb |
| 21:38.43 | elg | that's a fascinating question |
| 21:38.45 | goozbach | ok let's supose that I ran fdisk on a logical volume |
| 21:38.57 | goozbach | and created two partitions on the LV |
| 21:39.07 | goozbach | how do I mount the first partition? |
| 21:39.36 | jsmith | elg: You think so? |
| 21:40.43 | elg | oh yeah. and I know the answer too. the answer to all db questoins is the same |
| 21:41.18 | elg | "duh. you're using $your_favorite_db! you should use $my_favorite_db" |
| 21:42.03 | ^Migs^ | "WTF You're using $windows_product!?!?!?! you should use $linux_product!!!!!" |
| 21:42.50 | elg | as a rule of thumb, !$his_favorite_db, php, or windows is automatically bad |
| 21:42.53 | goozbach | which should be followed by "what do you mean $linux_product!? it's CALLED $gnu/linux_program" |
| 21:43.06 | elg | goozbach: which naturally breaks the regex |
| 21:43.16 | elg | at which point someone complains about lack of hardware support |
| 21:44.26 | jsmith | elg: In this case its "I'm not even using $my_favorite_db. I need to know how to do it $db_i_hate." |
| 21:44.56 | elg | ah. then the correct answer is "take the rest of the day off" |
| 21:45.28 | maquis | jsmith: i have sympathy, as long as $db_you_hate is not $db_i_like |
| 21:45.33 | elg | unless, of course, $db_i_hate == $his_favorite_db |
| 21:45.38 | elg | in which case you might get an answer |
| 21:45.47 | elg | encased in cursing |
| 21:46.33 | maquis | $my_editor is still better than $your_editor except when $my_editor == $your_editor |
| 21:47.03 | jsmith | elg: In this case, I think I'm pretty safe in saying $this_db != $your_favorite_db |
| 21:47.33 | Supaplex | ~/ sweet ~/ |
| 21:47.44 | maquis | jsmith: whatcha using? access? |
| 21:47.55 | Supaplex | *gag* |
| 21:48.02 | maquis | agreed |
| 21:48.07 | goozbach | access is not a db |
| 21:48.16 | goozbach | access is an affront to the tech gods |
| 21:48.16 | maquis | goozbach: no... but enough people think it is.... |
| 21:48.36 | Supaplex | csv > access :P |
| 21:48.47 | maquis | goozbach: does that mean that the chickens and black-candles don't work on access problems? |
| 21:49.43 | goozbach | no but a properly sacraficed toaster MIGHT do the trick |
| 21:50.19 | jsmith | ~access |
| 21:51.55 | jsmith | -access |
| 21:54.54 | elg | ok, so now that we're done teasing you, will you ask it? |
| 21:55.18 | maquis | i still want to know which db he's using |
| 21:56.43 | jsmith | Supaplex: how cheap? |
| 21:57.05 | Supaplex | $8.99+s/h |
| 21:57.54 | scottj | http://www.glidenext.com/ has to be a joke |
| 21:58.34 | scottj | I've when I first checked it it said available at 4pm, at 4pm they changed it to 5pm, and now it's 6pm |
| 21:58.43 | Supaplex | now I just need a vhdci to hd68 cable for the tape drive it works with. |
| 22:01.19 | elg | the question is, why did you check it in the first place? |
| 22:01.33 | maquis | "December 1, 2006 was officially proclaimed “Amazon.com Fernley Fulfillment Center Day” in the State |
| 22:01.41 | elg | one homework left |
| 22:01.45 | maquis | of Nevada |
| 22:01.47 | maquis | " |
| 22:02.05 | maquis | i think nevada is in need of some real holidays |
| 22:02.13 | elg | is that nevada pronounced like an npr voice, or nevada pronounced like the rest of us |
| 22:08.17 | dataw0lf | Nevada rocks. |
| 22:08.37 | elg | lots of them |
| 22:08.47 | dataw0lf | har har |
| 22:20.29 | Supaplex | nevada has rocks? no way |
| 22:20.47 | ^Migs^ | roflcopters! |
| 22:20.56 | maquis | ~lart ^Migs^ |
| 22:21.24 | Supaplex | ^Migs^ is like a starfish. they'll just be lots of little ^Migs^ now. |
| 22:22.34 | maquis | why in the world would someone do this... |
| 22:22.45 | ^Migs^ | what? create lots of little ^Migs^s? |
| 22:23.01 | ^Migs^ | I was wondering the same thing. |
| 22:23.12 | Supaplex | bot defect :P |
| 22:23.17 | ^Migs^ | That would be more awesomeness than the world could handle |
| 22:23.32 | maquis | just read an email from someone trying to figure out why they couldn't copy and paste into an xterm that they were running remotely |
| 22:24.11 | ^Migs^ | I wanna see GlideNext, dangit |
| 22:24.16 | ^Migs^ | wtf |
| 22:24.19 | maquis | they open up an xterm, ssh to another box, and then run xterm on the remote box, tunneling x |
| 22:24.48 | maquis | i really want to know what the rationale for that was |
| 22:26.22 | Supaplex | they like it complicated... |
| 22:28.37 | scottj | ^Migs^: 13pm (EST) |
| 22:29.19 | ^Migs^ | 13pm? who knows when that will be!? |
| 22:32.51 | maquis | how does someone know how to run "ssh <hostname> xterm" think that it's a good idea? |
| 22:33.01 | maquis | s/think/and think |
| 22:34.34 | dataw0lf | maquis: well, there could be mitigating factors. I had to run an xterm remotely to get KDMS to work.. |
| 22:35.42 | ^Migs^ | perhaps you have to pass through a series of firewalls |
| 22:35.49 | ^Migs^ | that could be one possibility |
| 22:35.53 | elg | it can be a good idea |
| 22:35.59 | ^Migs^ | one box, e.g., has VPN access while another box doesn't |
| 22:36.02 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 22:36.02 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 22:36.29 | elg | like if you want to see if xterm behaves such and such way on that box |
| 22:36.38 | elg | or to test Xresources |
| 22:36.49 | elg | or just to see if xterm is installed (and working) on that box |
| 22:37.12 | maquis | elg: i don't know why these machines would even have xterm installed |
| 22:37.29 | dataw0lf | maybe that's what he was wondering too :) |
| 22:37.45 | maquis | dataw0lf: except that he's apparently been doing this for a long time |
| 22:38.02 | maquis | he commented that it's worked for a long time, and just barely broke when he upgraded his machine |
| 22:38.02 | dataw0lf | I dunno, but there are various reasons to run xterm remotely. |
| 22:41.32 | levi | The overhead of running the xterm remotely is not that high. Why not? |
| 22:41.51 | maquis | levi: because you don't need to? |
| 22:42.07 | levi | maquis: There are a lot of things you do that you don't need to, I'm sure. |
| 22:42.28 | maquis | levi: true... but... it seems silly |
| 22:42.55 | levi | maquis: It seems silly to you. Perhaps this person had a reason for it, or just felt like doing it. |
| 22:43.01 | elg | because it worked and he's not an ssh guru who knows about -X (or knows enough to get -X working right all the time) |
| 22:43.11 | elg | so he just kept doing it, cuz it worked |
| 22:43.33 | levi | maquis: I've thought a lot of things you've done and talked about here have been silly, yet you continue to do them! ;) |
| 22:43.59 | maquis | still |
| 22:44.00 | elg | like running evilwm |
| 22:44.08 | levi | elg: Exactly. :) |
| 22:44.20 | maquis | evilwm is nice and snappy and fast |
| 22:44.59 | elg | and completely featureless |
| 22:45.01 | elg | it's silly |
| 22:45.02 | elg | but you like it |
| 22:45.12 | maquis | it has exactly the features i need |
| 22:45.29 | elg | and running xterm over ssh has the features he needs |
| 22:47.22 | elg | and I can't see any real benefit to the imperceptible "snappy and fast" margin that evilwm would have |
| 22:48.00 | dataw0lf | on today's hardware, it's not too much of a benefit at all. |
| 23:00.15 | *** part/#utah ^Migs^ (i=Migs@205.122.50.21) |
| 23:06.46 | scottj | 6pm and no GlideNext..no big surprise |
| 23:07.23 | mrpull | wtf is so special about glidenext? |
| 23:11.28 | scottj | nothing, it's just funny how they are hyping themselves so much (kind of like scrybe) and not delivering |
| 23:12.20 | mrpull | looks like they aren't meeting your expectations... mabye you should write them off |
| 23:13.06 | mrpull | OTOH, Scrybe did give a darn good demo |
| 23:14.34 | dataw0lf | I <3 the Scrybe video |
| 23:31.32 | levi | elg: You still doing natural deduction stuff? There was just a post on Lambda the Ultimate with a bunch of resources on it. |
| 23:31.48 | bonez39 | dataw0lf, what's the '<3' emoticon signify? |
| 23:32.53 | findlay | bonez39: turn your head \pi/2 right and think about your pulmonary cavity |
| 23:33.12 | maquis | bonez39: it's a heart |
| 23:33.18 | findlay | aw |
| 23:33.33 | dataw0lf | I >-|-> NY |
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| 23:46.09 | vontrapp | ibot, are you a girl? |
| 23:46.19 | Tene | ibot: vontrapp vontrapp |
| 23:46.25 | vontrapp | ibot, what gender are you |
| 23:46.27 | ibot | I think you lost me on that one, vontrapp |
| 23:46.31 | vontrapp | ibot, what gender are you? |
| 23:46.34 | ibot | vontrapp: what are you talking about? |
| 23:46.47 | vontrapp | ibot, are you female? |
| 23:47.22 | vontrapp | ~gender |
| 23:47.24 | ibot | I'm pregnant |
| 23:47.37 | vontrapp | ibot: that's great! |
| 23:49.37 | Tene | Hmm. This looks bad: http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/mirrorlist?repo=core-6&arch=x86_64 |
| 23:51.05 | bonez39 | findlay, maquis thanks..just out of brainfuel I guess....at this time of day |
