| 00:01.43 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=xbmodder@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 00:21.21 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@207.206.194.9) |
| 00:24.42 | atoponce | anyone running exim4? |
| 00:28.14 | Sargun | Try the Exim Mailing list |
| 00:28.20 | Sargun | you'll probably get better results |
| 00:29.10 | atoponce | hmm. probably. |
| 00:33.14 | atoponce | if anyone can help me here though, that's what i'd prefer. all i want is local mail restored |
| 00:33.35 | atoponce | and, of course, the ability to send mail. i'm not worried about receiving external mail |
| 00:35.21 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 00:48.38 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=jayce@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 00:48.38 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 00:52.45 | findlay | atoponce: as usual, start with the error messages |
| 00:53.01 | findlay | try to find some specific error strings |
| 01:02.41 | *** part/#utah herlo (n=herlo@207.206.194.9) |
| 01:06.11 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@207.206.194.9) |
| 01:20.20 | maquis | levi: ping? |
| 01:20.33 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@207.206.194.9) |
| 01:20.34 | Sargun | PONG |
| 01:24.20 | atoponce | findlay: 2006-12-04 17:13:42 1GrNwL-00083C-QX ** aaron.toponce@gmail.com R=nonlocal: Mailing to remote domains not supported |
| 01:26.53 | atoponce | from /var/log/exim4/mainlog |
| 01:29.32 | tristanbob_ | has anyone setup an online famliy address book? if so, what service or software? |
| 01:38.21 | Tene | Wasn't someone in here looking for a hosted to-do list a while back? |
| 01:38.27 | Tene | http://hiveminder.com/splash/ -- possibility |
| 01:39.09 | tristanbob_ | right now I am thinking of creating a dummy Gmail account and sharing that with everyone |
| 01:43.56 | Sargun | Why don't you just set it to forward to your real one? |
| 01:44.10 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 01:44.33 | Sargun | Dvorak? |
| 02:01.33 | graphyx | No |
| 02:01.56 | graphyx | I dont know what that is |
| 02:02.55 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@207.206.194.9) |
| 02:05.37 | atoponce | Sargun: yeah. it's Dvorak |
| 02:05.46 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-71-195-212-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 02:06.14 | atoponce | if you type it in qwerty, you get: "How is the Dvorak coming?" |
| 02:09.36 | *** join/#utah vex (n=vex@stutter.prohosting.com) |
| 02:10.04 | *** join/#utah vex (n=vex@stutter.prohosting.com) |
| 02:15.19 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 02:37.47 | goozbach | ok so that's intersting |
| 02:37.57 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 02:38.13 | goozbach | when using Curses::UI and your script dies and doesn't clean up itself |
| 02:38.28 | goozbach | it can cause GPM to no longer respond |
| 02:38.31 | findlay | what kind of joke isp blocks isp outbound ssh? |
| 02:38.46 | findlay | s/s isp/s/ |
| 02:39.11 | findlay | must the internet be *that* sterilized? |
| 02:43.15 | nick125 | findlay: which ISP are you refering to? |
| 02:51.27 | emcnabb | ~seen emcnabb |
| 02:51.57 | ibot | emcnabb is currently on #utah. Has said a total of 24 messages. Is idling for 30s, last said: '~seen emcnabb'. |
| 02:51.58 | goozbach | emcnabb: it doesn't work that way |
| 02:52.07 | elg | great gprof is borked on tiger |
| 02:52.11 | emcnabb | goozbach? |
| 02:52.15 | elg | now I have to stand up and go to my workstation |
| 02:52.28 | goozbach | ~seen elg |
| 02:52.40 | ibot | elg is currently on #utah (37m 21s). Has said a total of 2 messages. Is idling for 25s, last said: 'now I have to stand up and go to my workstation'. |
| 02:52.40 | goozbach | ~seen frodo |
| 02:52.46 | ibot | frodo <n=frodo@68.106.145.84> was last seen on IRC in channel #debian, 165d 23h 34m 9s ago, saying: 'Brb'. |
| 02:52.46 | elg | -lart goozbach |
| 02:52.46 | levi_home | elg: How's it borked? |
| 02:52.47 | emcnabb | goozbach: is that what I just did? |
| 02:53.11 | goozbach | you silly silly man |
| 02:53.25 | emcnabb | I was just curious to see when I last said something, but I guess it saw that as the most recent thing |
| 02:53.59 | elg | oh, actually it's not as broken as I thought |
| 02:55.13 | elg | it didn't work for me (pilot error) and I googled and saw lots about it being broken or worthless on tiger |
| 02:55.27 | elg | but it's giving me all the info I need so that's good enough |
| 02:55.38 | elg | (I just want to know which is the bottleneck function) |
| 02:55.46 | levi_home | Mmmm, Winder Farms grape juice is gooooood. |
| 02:56.14 | levi_home | Just about everything Winder Farms sells is good. |
| 02:56.42 | levi_home | I got in a little debate with a guy in my AI class today. |
| 02:57.16 | levi_home | I was ranting about how much Windows GUI programming sucks, and about MSDN documentation too. |
| 02:58.37 | levi_home | MSDN is HUGE, but it's difficult to find anything that's actually useful to me. And the API documentation, for example, is filled with useless examples in several languages. |
| 02:59.13 | levi_home | Anyway, sadly he doesn't know any better, because he's only ever programmed with MS stuff. |
| 03:04.08 | elg | scanf. I should have known |
| 03:04.10 | *** join/#utah SB1-Laptop (n=Death@67.186.244.23) |
| 03:04.18 | elg | is there something faster than scanf? |
| 03:09.48 | levi_home | What are you doing with scanf? |
| 03:11.02 | levi_home | I typically do a read() and write code to parse the data. It's very annoying, though. |
| 03:11.19 | elg | reading numbers |
| 03:11.25 | elg | from a data file |
| 03:12.47 | levi_home | You can probably experiment with different combinations of library functions and manual parsing to get the performance you need without going crazy. |
| 03:12.58 | graphyx | Are there any 802.1x open source implementationS? |
| 03:13.29 | elg | it's not the end of the world |
| 03:13.40 | elg | as long as it's not my code that's slow |
| 03:14.17 | elg | although I do have one function that's second place. unfortunately I don't know just how bad it is |
| 03:15.24 | goozbach | graphyx: 802.1x hmm |
| 03:15.33 | goozbach | looked at the intel cards |
| 03:15.34 | goozbach | ? |
| 03:16.01 | goozbach | oh nevermind I read that as 802.11 |
| 03:16.24 | graphyx | no the X doesn't stand for insert value here. |
| 03:16.25 | graphyx | ;) |
| 03:16.40 | goozbach | it's late and I'm tired |
| 03:16.56 | elg | it's taking 8 seconds of user time, 2 seconds of system time |
| 03:17.08 | elg | and gprof is reporting the top function as using a whopping .02 seconds |
| 03:18.47 | levi_home | Hmm. |
| 03:23.21 | Sargun | Whats better: a single black rose, a dozen black roses, or a few black roses and other roses. |
| 03:23.58 | levi_home | Why black? |
| 03:24.08 | levi_home | Trying to woo a goth chick? |
| 03:24.09 | nick125 | levi_home: That's my question.. |
| 03:25.58 | elg | i just must not grok gprof very well |
| 03:26.02 | elg | same sorts of numbers on linux |
| 03:26.34 | *** join/#utah calvarez (n=calvarez@r82h185.res.gatech.edu) |
| 03:30.02 | levi_home | gprof output is kind of werd. |
| 03:30.16 | levi_home | weird. |
| 03:30.50 | goozbach | Sargun: according to this: http://www.rkdn.org/roses/colors.asp it depends on how dead you wish someone |
| 03:31.19 | Sargun | levi_home, gothish |
| 03:31.35 | nick125 | Sargun: black roses actually mean death |
| 03:32.01 | Sargun | hence the gothishness |
| 03:32.15 | Sargun | aren't black technically dark dark red |
| 03:33.45 | mheath[laptop] | 6 days until I leave now... |
| 03:33.54 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], Good luck |
| 03:34.17 | mheath[laptop] | My dad was giving me a class on basic calculus in relation to electrical engineering |
| 03:34.37 | mheath[laptop] | I think thats the reason I did so horribel in highschool calc: It had no practicallity |
| 03:34.44 | mheath[laptop] | Nothing to show me: hey! This is useful! |
| 03:35.14 | Sargun | lol |
| 03:35.24 | Sargun | Most high school classes are like that |
| 03:35.49 | mheath[laptop] | Says the kid who's halfway through one year of them.\ |
| 03:35.59 | Sargun | 1.5 years |
| 03:36.17 | mheath[laptop] | Who likes to give non-existant colors of roses that signify death and farewell to girls they're trying to impress. |
| 03:36.28 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], Because when most people notice a practical usage for their studies, they are either intimidated, or say "Uh, I don't care, this is useless" |
| 03:36.30 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], uh. |
| 03:37.23 | mheath[laptop] | Sargun, I have a great idea |
| 03:37.52 | mheath[laptop] | How about you, like, talk to a girl. Get to be their friend. Have coversations. Invite them out to grab a bit to eat. Invite them to a movie. |
| 03:38.08 | mheath[laptop] | how about you try not presenting them with odd flower arrangements you've decided on after discussing the topic on IRC? |
| 03:38.18 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], Actually, its for someone who I |
| 03:38.24 | Sargun | 'm not planning on talking to |
| 03:38.49 | Sargun | Goth girl who seemed bored |
| 03:39.00 | Sargun | and just broke up with her BF that she has been dating a while |
| 03:39.07 | Sargun | Single Dark red |
| 03:39.10 | nick125 | whats your GF going to think about it though? |
| 03:39.27 | Sargun | nick125, She thinks its cool. |
| 03:39.59 | mheath[laptop] | Sargun, uh.."Love, Beauty, Courage and Respect, Romantic Love, Congratulations, I Love You, Job Well Done, Sincere Love, Respect, Courage & Passion" |
| 03:40.13 | mheath[laptop] | You want to convey Romantic Love, I Love You, Sinere Love, and Passion? |
| 03:40.25 | Sargun | hm, bad idea |
| 03:40.37 | mheath[laptop] | Again |
| 03:40.42 | Sargun | Well I though black = goth |
| 03:40.48 | Sargun | not black = uh, yeah. |
| 03:40.52 | mheath[laptop] | TALK. Theres this thing called being social. |
| 03:41.02 | mheath[laptop] | SOmeones in a bad mood? Talk to them about it. |
| 03:41.07 | Sargun | Um. |
| 03:41.08 | Sargun | No. |
| 03:41.13 | mheath[laptop] | <mheath[laptop]> how about you try not presenting them with odd flower arrangements you've decided on after discussing the topic on IRC? |
| 03:41.14 | Sargun | I don't talk to people @ my school. |
| 03:41.26 | Sargun | Its a bad bad idea |
| 03:41.32 | Sargun | it tends to get me smacked |
| 03:41.37 | Sargun | or spit at |
| 03:41.40 | Sargun | or ridiculed |
| 03:41.47 | mheath[laptop] | Sargun, Then you're extremely anti-social and you have a diagnosable psychiatric condition. |
| 03:41.51 | Sargun | or any of the fun stuff that you'd experience in high school. |
| 03:42.32 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], No, I just don't enjoy those things. |
| 03:42.46 | Sargun | The name "Sargun" or "Xbmodder" is known everywhere in my school |
| 03:42.50 | mheath[laptop] | Having social interactions with other people? |
| 03:42.51 | Sargun | and its associated with bad things. |
| 03:42.58 | mheath[laptop] | That's not healthy. |
| 03:43.03 | Sargun | I know. |
| 03:44.55 | Sargun | I have a very small, tight knit group of friends |
| 03:45.47 | mheath[laptop] | Sargun, people like nice personable people they can talk to. |
| 03:46.25 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], People are easily convinced to stab their acquaintances in the back. |
| 03:56.09 | goozbach | Bowling for soup was right! |
| 03:58.22 | Sargun | ? |
| 03:58.29 | Sargun | Bowling for soup? |
| 03:59.06 | goozbach | "High School never ends" -- it just migrates to IRC |
| 03:59.43 | goozbach | random flower to a girl isn't going to help matters much sargun |
| 03:59.53 | goozbach | talking, and being social, just might |
| 04:00.07 | Sargun | talking and being social is bad! |
| 04:02.06 | goozbach | being a stalker isn't? |
| 04:02.14 | Sargun | eh? |
| 04:02.21 | Sargun | Uh, yeah, it is.. |
| 04:02.28 | goozbach | ok then |
| 04:02.43 | goozbach | have you EVER talked to this girl? |
| 04:03.05 | goozbach | if the answer is no, a ROSE is not a good "suprise" gift |
| 04:03.26 | Sargun | Uh, I've said hi |
| 04:03.29 | Sargun | and bless you |
| 04:03.49 | Sargun | somewhere between 8:00-8:08 in the morning |
| 04:03.49 | goozbach | when she's sneezed? |
| 04:03.56 | Sargun | yeah |
| 04:04.02 | goozbach | STALKER!!!! |
| 04:04.04 | Sargun | When she sneezed |
| 04:04.05 | Sargun | ok. |
| 04:04.29 | goozbach | $female is preblally afraid of you |
| 04:04.37 | Sargun | Mhm. |
| 04:04.44 | goozbach | dude TALK |
| 04:04.54 | goozbach | being social is not bad |
| 04:04.57 | Sargun | goozbach, See, as I said earlier talking: |
| 04:05.01 | Sargun | it tends to get me smacked |
| 04:05.01 | Sargun | <Sargun> or spit at |
| 04:05.01 | Sargun | <Sargun> or ridiculed |
| 04:05.07 | Sargun | <Sargun> or any of the fun stuff that you'd experience in high school. |
| 04:05.17 | Sargun | My high school isn't a big fan of me |
| 04:05.29 | Sargun | But at least everyone knows me |
| 04:05.32 | goozbach | if that's the case, I'l lookat what you're saying |
| 04:05.33 | Sargun | :-) |
| 04:05.42 | Sargun | goozbach, Well, from stuff I've done earlier |
| 04:05.56 | goozbach | well there's only one way to change that. |
| 04:06.04 | goozbach | bah |
| 04:06.11 | Sargun | goozbach, Yeah, I know, talk to people |
| 04:06.16 | Sargun | and change their views |
| 04:06.16 | goozbach | my gives up |
| 04:06.24 | goozbach | beddy by time |
| 04:06.31 | Sargun | night |
| 04:06.46 | goozbach | I've also a femail to CALL ON THE PNONE and TALK TO! |
| 04:07.02 | goozbach | :) |
| 04:08.00 | Sargun | goozbach, Your not the only one with that |
| 04:08.08 | Sargun | :-P |
| 04:08.23 | goozbach | yeah, right |
| 04:08.31 | goozbach | :) |
| 04:08.41 | goozbach | STALKER!!! |
| 04:10.08 | Sargun | lol |
| 04:30.41 | calvarez | rofl |
| 04:36.53 | tristanbob_ | does anyone here work for mozy.com, or know someone who is? |
| 04:37.06 | tristanbob_ | mozy.com is a backup service, and it is based in Utah |
| 04:47.05 | findlay | nick125: mcleod USA |
| 04:51.20 | calvarez | ~love OpenGL-based real-time chromatic gradient magnitude edge detection on a video feed |
| 04:51.29 | ibot | If you love OpenGL-based real-time chromatic gradient magnitude edge detection on a video feed so much, why don't you marry it? (oooooh) |
| 04:51.30 | calvarez | sooo cool |
| 04:58.15 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:17.09 | mheath[laptop] | Sargun, if a girl smacks you, spits on you, or ridicules you when you attempt to talk to her, she's probably not a good cantidate to present a rose to anyway. |
| 05:17.25 | Sargun | no no, not the girl |
| 05:17.35 | Sargun | the people (guys) who hang out with her |
| 05:17.40 | mheath[laptop] | But none of this matters |
| 05:17.46 | mheath[laptop] | because a few years from now, hopefully you'll grow up |
| 05:17.59 | mheath[laptop] | and realize how stupid, dramatical, and inconsequential all of your current behavior is |
| 05:18.13 | mheath[laptop] | And you will, perhaps, begin to recognize good company as good company |
| 05:18.50 | mheath[laptop] | And rther than acting like some overly dramatical highschool student, you will find a beautiful young woman to spend the rest of your life with; you will NOT find this girl by obsessing over girls in some freakishly stalkerish manner. |
| 05:19.29 | Sargun | how is randomly giving out roses stalkerish? |
| 05:19.42 | nick125 | it could be considered stalkerish |
| 05:19.54 | Sargun | nick125, Well, like that incident of the past couple weeks |
| 05:20.08 | Sargun | was not stalkerish |
| 05:20.13 | Sargun | ew |
| 05:20.14 | Sargun | er |
| 05:20.19 | Sargun | a couple weeks ago |
| 05:20.47 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], I realise this is all useless. I do try to talk to the older crowd, but my parents heavily dislike that |
| 05:21.16 | mheath[laptop] | Sargun, the fact that you talk about the 'older crowd' simply shows how childish you are. |
| 05:21.29 | mheath[laptop] | Guess what? a few years from now, you won't care taht someone is older or younger. |
| 05:21.49 | mheath[laptop] | It's only in highschool that it matters that the girl is a junior when you're a senior, or that you're a sophmore when they're a senior. |
| 05:22.00 | Sargun | No, not in that sense |
| 05:22.07 | Sargun | I mean in the sense people who are out of high school |
| 05:22.14 | Sargun | and who are slightly more insightful |
| 05:23.13 | mheath[laptop] | Sargun, stop obsessing about overly dramatical highschool cliques. |
| 05:23.13 | Sargun | Um.. |
| 05:25.48 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], Ok, First of all. I do have social friends, who are girls. I do not hang out with group of people at my high school. I tend to go from group to group for a single person. I was just trying to cheer her up a little bit. and btw: I do currently have a girlfriend, and am not planning on uh, messing this up. |
| 05:26.52 | mheath[laptop] | I never said you didn't have a girlfriend. |
| 05:27.32 | Sargun | I thought, earlier you suggested that I wanted to go out with goth girl. |
| 05:28.07 | mheath[laptop] | Sargun, a rose is generally acknowledged as a gesture of romance. |
| 05:29.14 | Sargun | Mhm, good point. |
| 05:30.54 | Sargun | On the topic of Linux, and Linux LUGS |
| 05:30.54 | Sargun | I'm thinking of starting my own LUG |
| 05:31.23 | Sargun | ? |
| 05:31.56 | nick125 | http://www.lettersfrombadsanta.com/images/toy1.jpg < obviously the kid didn't read the dang instructions, you are supposed to plug it in THEN put the screwdriver into the toaster! |
| 05:32.07 | mheath[laptop] | Hmm. Does anyone know what the theme song to "The Hunt for Red October" is? |
| 05:32.42 | mheath[laptop] | Sounds too elaborate and classical to just be a movie theme song. Sounds like classical russian opera, but I'm very naive when it comes to music, so I could be completely wrong. |
| 05:32.55 | mheath[laptop] | *when it comes to classical music |
| 05:33.35 | mheath[laptop] | http://home.comcast.net/~freewebman/war/others/hunt-red-october.mp3 <-- Particularly interested in the Slavic march style bits in the middle |
| 05:34.20 | Sargun | mheath[laptop], Did you just watch that movie |
| 05:34.41 | mheath[laptop] | Yes. And, thankfully, it reaffirmed by decision to NOT volunteer for subsurface :P |
| 05:35.26 | Sargun | heh |
| 05:39.01 | mheath[laptop] | I like being incharge of my own destiny |
| 05:39.29 | mheath[laptop] | And see, with a sub, if something goes horribly wrong, your dead. A leak, water pressure kills you. Engine dies...you sink, water pressure bursts in and kills you. |
| 05:39.43 | mheath[laptop] | No ifs ands or buts, if something goes really wrong, you're dead. |
| 05:40.03 | mheath[laptop] | With a surface ship, you are in control of your destiny. |
| 05:40.14 | mheath[laptop] | You can try to save the ship. You can get in a rescue boat. You can swim. |
| 05:40.19 | mheath[laptop] | You are still in control. |
| 05:40.58 | mheath[laptop] | The whole "stuck under the water for months" is a secondary concern to me (but a concern, still) |
| 05:41.32 | mheath[laptop] | I like to have more contact with people than weekly 20-word ELF-sent care transmissions. |
| 05:55.06 | calvarez | mheath[laptop], that theme is awesome, I wish I knew what the name is |
| 06:05.25 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=calvarez@r82h185.res.gatech.edu) |
| 06:50.28 | levi_home | Woo hoo! My neural network character recognizer works! |
| 06:51.41 | Sargun | Cool. |
| 06:53.07 | levi_home | It only recognizes the digits 1-5 drawn on a 10x10 grid, but that's still pretty cool. |
| 10:54.09 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 11:04.03 | *** join/#utah mrpull-_ (n=misterpu@mail.pollmann.us) |
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| 13:45.56 | graphyx | how is the dvorak coming? |
| 13:46.19 | graphyx | ok I understand it now. |
| 13:46.56 | graphyx | it is a statement in dvorak typed in qwerty. |
| 13:47.51 | graphyx | I had tried it the other way before. |
| 14:10.08 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 14:20.23 | emcnabb | ~lart elg |
| 14:22.31 | goozbach | ok so is this funny? http://gaybuntu.com/ |
| 14:23.38 | graphyx | nope. |
| 14:23.44 | graphyx | not funny |
| 14:25.21 | goozbach | I'm going to call TBS and get a second opinion |
| 14:26.41 | emcnabb | nope. |
| 14:26.43 | emcnabb | not funny |
| 14:27.24 | graphyx | emcnabb: my feelings exactly. |
| 14:28.19 | emcnabb | ~lart goozbach |
| 14:28.33 | emcnabb | ~poo goozbach |
| 14:28.41 | ibot | ACTION summons a troop of flying monkeys to fling their poo at goozbach |
| 14:28.41 | goozbach | ok THAT's funny |
| 14:32.09 | glitch- | Hi goozbach |
| 14:32.10 | glitch- | =) |
| 14:32.16 | glitch- | Hello all |
| 14:32.40 | atoponce | hi glitch- |
| 14:33.05 | goozbach | glitch-: helo |
| 14:33.08 | goozbach | er hello |
| 14:33.30 | glitch- | Heya atoponce |
| 14:35.19 | elg | ~eat goozbach |
| 14:35.21 | ibot | ACTION eats goozbach and falls over dead |
| 14:37.51 | emcnabb | ~fire elg |
| 14:37.52 | ibot | I'm sorry, elg, but it just isn't working out. Pack up your stuff. |
| 14:38.03 | elg | ~dump emcnabb |
| 14:38.17 | emcnabb | ~burn |
| 14:38.18 | ibot | "And it burns burns burns... the ring of fire..." |
| 14:38.23 | emcnabb | ~burn elg |
| 14:38.24 | ibot | ACTION pours gasoline all over elg, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze |
| 14:47.28 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-71-195-212-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 14:53.11 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@mail.newhorizonsdm.com) |
| 14:54.58 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=mrpull@205.158.184.126) |
| 14:55.18 | herlo | so is the PLUG meeting this week? |
| 14:59.22 | mrpull | herlo: isn't it always the second Wednesday? |
| 14:59.54 | mrpull | looks like it'll be the 13th this month |
| 15:00.02 | mrpull | i don't see a topic for it yet |
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| 15:00.25 | mrpull | plug.org is a lot more timely than it used to be |
| 15:01.03 | herlo | mrpull: yeah, but it's also nearing Christmas which means some people might not be around on the 13th |
| 15:01.41 | mrpull | true. I don't remember the plug meeting ever being canceled in December (but a lot of other lugs certainly do) |
| 15:07.11 | spr | http://www.savagechickens.com/blog/index.html - I would actually watch that :) |
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| 15:28.15 | Jayce^ | herlo, 13th, as always |
| 15:28.33 | Jayce^ | Tene, you still on for plug? |
| 15:30.42 | emcnabb | hello, Jayce^ |
| 15:33.03 | Jayce^ | hello emcnabb ...... |
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| 15:39.22 | scothoser | Morning everyone! |
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| 16:03.49 | levi | Good morning. |
| 16:04.19 | ^Migs^ | GREETINGS SCOTHOSER AND LEVI! |
| 16:04.56 | levi | I'm glad someone greets me with the enthusiasm I deserve, even if it is ^Migs^. |
| 16:06.48 | ^Migs^ | well, why wouldn't I? You're LEVI. |
| 16:07.05 | levi | Indeed. |
| 16:07.23 | levi | The real question is, why doesn't everyone else? |
| 16:07.35 | Jayce^ | well, you're LEVI |
| 16:07.59 | levi | Jayce^: :P |
| 16:09.10 | vontrapp | and why the lack of memory tends to jumble letters |
| 16:09.28 | levi | I have now written a GUI app using .net Windows.Forms libraries. It SUCKS. |
| 16:09.36 | vontrapp | (i promise those were typed in order) |
| 16:09.47 | Jayce^ | riiiiigh |
| 16:10.24 | vontrapp | i think it's friefox 2.0 |
| 16:10.29 | vontrapp | there it goes agina |
| 16:11.31 | vontrapp | fi? |
| 16:11.54 | vontrapp | s/fi/honestly, how would i hit fr faster than fi/ |
| 16:13.02 | maquis | ~lart vontrapp |
| 16:15.02 | vontrapp | oh, i guess it's firefox 1.5 |
| 16:16.06 | scott___ | if I stop a powersupply fan from running what is likely to happen? the powersupply overheats and the computer shuts off? |
| 16:16.47 | scott___ | levi, what sucks about it? |
| 16:17.34 | maquis | scott___: when a previous employer had the AC go out in their server room, all the machines turned themselves off when the room hit about 118 degrees... |
| 16:17.52 | maquis | the sysadmins where pretty excited that all the hardware survived |
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| 16:18.44 | levi | scottj: It was just a pain, and the GUI designer didn't do what I needed it to. Of course, I don't do a lot of GUI programming anyway. |
| 16:19.10 | maquis | levi: monodevelop or vs? |
| 16:19.21 | levi | maquis: Visual Studio. |
| 16:19.26 | maquis | levi: i'm sorry |
| 16:19.41 | maquis | i've never played with monodevelop, but i have dealt with vs a few too many times |
| 16:20.18 | levi | maquis: Yeah. I didn't want to install the zillion dependencies for monodevelop on my laptop, so I did it in the visual studio trial edition at home on Windows. |
| 16:20.46 | levi | maquis: I did write it in F#, which is much nicer than C#. Way less typing. |
| 16:21.24 | maquis | levi: personally, i'd prefer C# over F#. F# doesn't look like a passing grade... |
| 16:21.53 | levi | maquis: Well, it's going to get me an A, so it passes just fine with me. |
| 16:21.54 | maquis | although... F# does come before C#... |
| 16:22.51 | maquis | then you get G#... |
| 16:23.43 | levi | I have no idea what G# would be. What's a programming language or paradigm that starts with G? |
| 16:23.59 | vontrapp | gravy |
| 16:24.00 | maquis | levi: i'm not talking about programming languages anymore :) |
| 16:24.17 | levi | maquis: Clearly, but I am! |
| 16:24.20 | vontrapp | it's your language of choice to sauce things up! |
| 16:24.35 | goozbach | monodevelop? |
| 16:24.36 | goozbach | hmm |
| 16:24.59 | maquis | i think on the unspun list yesterday there was one called "groovy"... but i don't know if it's actually a language or if someone was just fooling around |
| 16:25.01 | vontrapp | um, cups thinks i have two new printers on parallel port #1 |
| 16:25.43 | maquis | vontrapp: you got 2 printers on parallel port 1? |
| 16:25.52 | vontrapp | CANON and EPSON |
| 16:26.01 | vontrapp | neither of which i have |
| 16:26.15 | maquis | vontrapp: what happens when you print to one of them? |
| 16:26.54 | levi | Oh yeah, Groovy is some scripting language on the JVM. |
| 16:28.51 | vontrapp | well, i'd have to add them first |
| 16:29.31 | calvarez | levi, no offense, but I've used the visual designer in VS.NET a lot and I have to say that the only times I didn't get it to do what I wanted to do was when I wasn't doing things right |
| 16:31.00 | calvarez | and the .NET Windows.Forms libraries do not suck |
| 16:31.21 | calvarez | they are easy to use and they work fairly fast |
| 16:31.46 | vontrapp | that does not preclude sucking |
| 16:31.52 | calvarez | it doesn't suck. |
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| 16:32.37 | levi | I reserve the right to continue holding the opinion that they suck as long as I feel like. |
| 16:32.53 | calvarez | you have the right to have as many inaccurate opinions as you want |
| 16:32.57 | levi | I admit that they could be far, far worse. |
| 16:33.09 | calvarez | again, opinions don't HAVE to be logical; |
| 16:33.18 | levi | I have not, after all, compared them to any other GUI toolkits. |
| 16:33.27 | calvarez | at any rate, I wish user controls supported transparency |
| 16:33.37 | calvarez | well, that's where the magic comes |
| 16:33.44 | calvarez | I have, and .NET is about the better ones |
| 16:33.53 | calvarez | now MFC DO suck |
| 16:34.02 | calvarez | stupid handle tables |
| 16:34.06 | calvarez | OOP is much easier |
| 16:34.09 | calvarez | i this context |
| 16:34.13 | calvarez | s/i/in/ |
| 16:34.17 | levi | Oh, I'm sure MFC is much worse. |
| 16:34.32 | maquis | command-line is so much easier... |
| 16:34.32 | SB1-Work | calvarez, please take note, that levi is one of the few people who *really, really* knows their stuff in the realm of programming... like he scares me :P |
| 16:34.33 | levi | And I think Java GUI programming sucks, too. |
| 16:34.36 | SB1-Work | Just fold now and obey :P |
| 16:34.38 | calvarez | but Windows.Forms are probably the best of ther crop right now |
| 16:34.45 | levi | SB1-Work: calvarez knows his stuff, too. |
| 16:34.46 | calvarez | ack, Swing is an abominmation |
| 16:35.00 | calvarez | I detect a hint of sarcasm |
| 16:35.00 | SB1-Work | levi, not saying he doesn't. Just saying that you scare me. :) |
| 16:35.03 | maquis | tomcat is an abomination |
| 16:35.09 | calvarez | it indeed is |
| 16:35.17 | calvarez | tomcat IS NOT SCALABLE PERIOD |
| 16:35.24 | maquis | calvarez: we agree on something...! :) |
| 16:35.29 | calvarez | yup ;) |
| 16:35.50 | levi | When I say that Windows.Forms sucks, I'm not saying it's worse than other GUI systems that currently exist, since I haven't tried very many. |
| 16:35.55 | calvarez | and struts do not make things easier and more modular |
| 16:36.15 | calvarez | levi, the concept of "sucking" is usually relative to something else |
| 16:36.24 | levi | calvarez: Not necessarily. |
| 16:36.34 | maquis | calvarez: not necessarily... there are plenty of situations that just suck regardless of the other options |
| 16:36.43 | maquis | there are times where it's relative, though |
| 16:36.55 | calvarez | "not necessarily...I could be arguing in my spare time" |
| 16:36.58 | calvarez | lol |
| 16:37.04 | maquis | for example, i didn't know that VB sucked until i discovered other options |
| 16:37.06 | calvarez | Monty Python's Argument Clinic |
| 16:37.18 | calvarez | VB...brrrrr |
| 16:37.37 | calvarez | anyways |
| 16:37.46 | maquis | *yawn* |
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| 16:37.51 | calvarez | .NET Windows.Forms are very intuitive |
| 16:37.54 | maquis | i'm still claiming it's not morning yet |
| 16:37.58 | calvarez | I don't see why anybody would say they suck |
| 16:38.16 | calvarez | they're very flexible, and the layout is extremely easy |
| 16:38.39 | calvarez | again, the only annoying thing I ran into is that user controls don't support transparency |
| 16:39.24 | calvarez | .NET in general is very good. The MSDN documentation is very unreadable (browsing is horrible when compared to javadocs) |
| 16:39.25 | mheath[laptop] | I have all GUI development, including Windows |
| 16:39.25 | maquis | i find the vast majority of gui apps to be non-intuitive |
| 16:39.25 | synic | .. I thought Swing's layout method was easy.... and it is, but gtk+ is easier, imo. |
| 16:39.34 | mheath[laptop] | but I don't see why Windows GUI APIs are any worse than anything else. |
| 16:39.54 | synic | it seems they all appear easy until you actually learn something else to compare it to. |
| 16:39.55 | levi | Yes, MSDN sucks, which is a big part of my sucky experience with Windows Forms. |
| 16:39.57 | calvarez | I haven't tried GTK+ yet, but I may do so soon |
| 16:39.58 | mheath[laptop] | I just find the whole process of GUI development needlessly complex, and it makes your code far, far uglier and heavy than it should be. |
| 16:40.11 | synic | mheath[laptop]: what toolkits have you used? |
| 16:40.12 | maquis | mheath[laptop]: agreed |
| 16:40.21 | levi | I also agree with that sentiment. |
| 16:40.34 | calvarez | levi, I found that too. It makes the experience of programming in .NET painful. That is not a problem with the framework though |
| 16:40.57 | mheath[laptop] | synic, GTK (with C, C++, and C# bindings), Windows .NET (VB, C#), Java (Both AWT and SWING) |
| 16:41.08 | calvarez | mheath[laptop], I haven't had problems with coimplexity in my code when maming GUIs |
| 16:41.14 | synic | you found gtk+ needlessly complex? |
| 16:41.34 | mheath[laptop] | synic, I did ObjectiveC with GNUStep GUI stuff for a bit too |
| 16:41.34 | calvarez | I usually make a completely modular version of my code, and I plug it into a GUI |
| 16:41.36 | mheath[laptop] | synic, yes. |
| 16:42.30 | synic | mheath[laptop]: weird. I found it intuitive compared to the others I've used. Have you used libglade? |
| 16:42.48 | calvarez | if you make your software entirely modular, adding a GUI should not make it complex |
| 16:42.56 | calvarez | other than the complexity of the GUI itself |
| 16:43.07 | calvarez | but again, I would not put program logic in the GUI callbacks |
| 16:43.10 | levi | calvarez: Indeed, it's the complexity of the GUI stuff that is being complained about. |
| 16:43.33 | calvarez | I thought Windows.Forms was extremely straight forward and required very little coding |
| 16:43.40 | mheath[laptop] | calvarez, yes, the GUI complexity itself is what I have a problem with! |
| 16:43.47 | mheath[laptop] | calvarez, if you want to make a form that prints out Hello World! |
| 16:43.53 | calvarez | hmm |
| 16:44.03 | calvarez | that's about 5 clicks and 4 lines of code |
| 16:44.18 | calvarez | again, I would not write the GUI by hand |
| 16:44.23 | synic | w = gtk.Window(); w.add(gtk.Label("Hello World")); w.show_all() |
| 16:44.24 | calvarez | I'd use the RAD tool in VS.NET |
| 16:44.31 | calvarez | hmm, that's nice |
| 16:45.07 | mheath[laptop] | synic, I was being sarcastic. calvarez said that Windows.Forms is straight forward and requires little coding; I said thats only if your programming something so simple ass Hello World. |
| 16:45.19 | synic | oh. :P |
| 16:45.20 | calvarez | oh |
| 16:45.22 | calvarez | hmm |
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| 16:45.46 | calvarez | I disagree, I've made very complex GUIs with Windows.Forms and it was very little coding |
| 16:45.51 | vontrapp | -lart elg |
| 16:46.06 | calvarez | most of the development was clicking here and there |
| 16:46.14 | mheath[laptop] | calvarez, I like my programs to be very clean. |
| 16:46.22 | mheath[laptop] | GUI programming in general adds a lot of extra cruft to the program |
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| 16:46.32 | mheath[laptop] | And makes it impossible to follow any traditional style |
| 16:46.42 | calvarez | hmm, I disagree with the last statement |
| 16:46.46 | synic | me too. |
| 16:47.09 | synic | gtk and swing are both especially mvc, if you're into that sort of thing. |
| 16:47.10 | calvarez | and the extra croft, well, it's simply part of using an external library |
| 16:47.18 | mheath[laptop] | Your VS point-and-click GUI design crap is another manner entirely (which I still disagree with on principle, but for other reasons) |
| 16:47.23 | calvarez | using an external library does add croft to any software |
| 16:47.34 | calvarez | mheath[laptop], ok, I see where we diverge |
| 16:47.42 | calvarez | I think coding a GUI by hand is ridiculous |
| 16:47.47 | calvarez | you think the opposite |
| 16:48.01 | maquis | calvarez: you think GUIs make things easier... i think GUIs make things annoying and non-intuitive |
| 16:48.31 | calvarez | maquis, I don't want to start this old argument, but GUIs are more intuitive to non-programmer types |
| 16:48.37 | calvarez | anmd please dopnm' |
| 16:48.54 | calvarez | tand please don't make me have to go around the corner and get a bunch of HCI researchers to join the channel |
| 16:48.55 | maquis | calvarez: only because that's what they've been given |
| 16:49.37 | vontrapp | what about interaction designers? |
| 16:49.49 | vontrapp | ~hci |
| 16:49.59 | ibot | hci is probably Human-Computer Interaction, aka user interface |
| 16:50.04 | maquis | i actually read an interesting study a while ago where they introduced a bunch of older people to the linux command-line |
| 16:50.15 | maquis | these were people who had literally *no* previous computer interaction |
| 16:50.18 | calvarez | and what happened |
| 16:50.33 | maquis | after they were introduced to the command-line, they were introduced to a gui |
| 16:50.48 | maquis | most preferred the command-line because they felt like they were communicating with the computer |
| 16:51.04 | calvarez | hmm, was the opposite approach used as well? |
| 16:51.06 | vontrapp | the main focus of the book is "interaction" as apposed to "interface" |
| 16:51.09 | calvarez | GUI, then CLI? |
| 16:51.15 | calvarez | what about CLI alone |
| 16:51.18 | calvarez | or GUI alone? |
| 16:51.28 | maquis | calvarez: the gui, then cli is what the vast majority of people experience |
| 16:51.38 | calvarez | if any of those were not considered in the study, then that stuidy is officially non-scientific bunk |
| 16:51.42 | vontrapp | i agree that the command line is more like communicating with the computer |
| 16:51.58 | vontrapp | and like it or not, people (yes, even you) treat computers as humans |
| 16:52.12 | maquis | calvarez: the majority of people think the gui is more comfortable because it's what they are introduced to first |
| 16:52.36 | maquis | in both cases, there are exceptions |
| 16:52.53 | calvarez | I think the exceptions are big enough to make tht a non-conclusion |
| 16:52.57 | calvarez | at any rate |
| 16:53.00 | vontrapp | any software that interacts with the user is going to be more friendly |
| 16:53.00 | maquis | (for example, i grew up with a gui interface, and didn't discover command-line until college)... |
| 16:53.07 | vontrapp | and cli tends to interact more |
| 16:53.10 | calvarez | maquis, for me it was the oppopsite |
| 16:53.19 | calvarez | I come from an emacs background, and switched to VS.NET |
| 16:53.37 | calvarez | and I had a short vi stage as well |
| 16:53.43 | maquis | calvarez: that's not what i'm referring to |
| 16:53.53 | calvarez | at any rate |
| 16:54.13 | maquis | calvarez: was your first computer experienec with windows, linux or mac? |
| 16:54.18 | vontrapp | grew up _using_ guis, then started using linux and cli |
| 16:54.23 | calvarez | the use of the CLI requires a lot of background knowledge that most users don't have/don't care |
| 16:54.27 | mheath[laptop] | crap I have to take my uniform to the dry cleaners today. hmm. |
| 16:54.32 | calvarez | maquis, it was a TI-994A |
| 16:54.35 | calvarez | CLI |
| 16:54.46 | maquis | interesting |
| 16:54.48 | synic | maquis: you left one (or 6) out. I started in DOS. |
| 16:55.00 | maquis | synic: true... |
| 16:55.03 | maquis | i don't remember dos |
| 16:55.15 | macnewbold | mheath[laptop]: so where are we in the countdown now? You are leaving in how many days? |
| 16:55.15 | mheath[laptop] | Don't remember DOS? |
| 16:55.21 | maquis | my first experience with m$ wasn't til middle-school |
| 16:55.32 | maquis | at home we've always had macs |
| 16:55.36 | mheath[laptop] | You're far older than me, and I remember DOS vividly. Unfortunately :( |
| 16:55.43 | calvarez | about vontrapp's comment that people approach computers like they approach people, I'm skeptical |
| 16:55.48 | calvarez | I know that holds for robots |
| 16:55.55 | calvarez | I don't know about a desktop computer |
| 16:55.57 | maquis | mheath[laptop]: i grew up on macs... |
| 16:56.03 | calvarez | in fact, I tend to think the opposite |
| 16:56.14 | macnewbold | I started in dos 3.3, and used 5.0, and 6.0, clear up to the end of the Windows 3.1 era. Jumped from MS-DOS 6.0 to Windows 95 |
| 16:56.15 | mheath[laptop] | macnewbold, 5.5 days, kind of. |
| 16:56.20 | macnewbold | wow, getting close |
| 16:56.21 | maquis | calvarez: my mom responds to her computer like a person |
| 16:56.22 | macnewbold | congrats again |
| 16:56.28 | mheath[laptop] | I'll be at a hotel down in SLC in that much time. Don't actually leave for 6.5 days |
| 16:56.31 | SB1-Work | DOS 6.22 for life |
| 16:56.34 | calvarez | maquis, well, maybe she is the exception |
| 16:56.34 | macnewbold | I've got a friend in the USN national guard or reserves |
| 16:56.48 | maquis | calvarez: i dunno... |
| 16:56.50 | mheath[laptop] | No such thing as the USN national guard, so it's got to be reserves. |
| 16:57.58 | vontrapp | calvarez: not approach, you certainly approach your computer knowing it's a computer |
| 16:57.59 | calvarez | I'm highly skeptical that if people were exposed to the CLI first, in general they would prefer it |
| 16:58.09 | vontrapp | but you _respond_ to it with human emotians, like it were another human |
| 16:58.16 | vontrapp | this response is base and unavoidable |
| 16:58.28 | vontrapp | due to the level of interaction with the computer |
| 16:58.37 | vontrapp | tell me you've never got mad at your computer |
| 16:58.38 | calvarez | vontrapp, I see. I agree |
| 16:58.40 | vontrapp | or congratulated it |
| 16:58.44 | findlay | ibot: do I respond to you with human emotions, like you were another human? |
| 16:58.53 | ibot | ACTION does I respond to you with human emotions, like you were another human. |
| 16:58.53 | calvarez | well, that approach goes towards most things |
| 16:58.54 | calvarez | animals, stock market, traffic, etc |
| 16:59.18 | calvarez | but we've diverged |
| 16:59.43 | mheath[laptop] | ibot, do a dance |
| 16:59.45 | ibot | ACTION does a dance. |
| 16:59.45 | calvarez | the thing is, humans put a LOT of weight into visual/spatial learning |
| 16:59.50 | vontrapp | in any case, making a better interface is missing the point |
| 16:59.56 | vontrapp | you must make better interaction |
| 16:59.57 | calvarez | they use it even for non-visual/spatial related thingas |
| 17:00.28 | calvarez | and most people do feel more comfortable with a GUI. Most users are scared easily with a CLI, even if they had never been exposed to a GUI before |
| 17:00.37 | vontrapp | and the problem with guis is that they just throw buttons into visual space, and they're not even consisten |
| 17:00.40 | vontrapp | t |
| 17:00.44 | calvarez | and many people struggle for a while with a CLI without success |
| 17:00.54 | calvarez | while most of these problems seem to be diminished when using a GUI |
| 17:01.09 | calvarez | vontrapp, that's it';s a design problem, not a GUI paradigm problem |
| 17:01.12 | maquis | calvarez: i can understand that a well-written GUI might be more comfortable than CLI, but in my experience, CLIs tend to be poorly designed |
| 17:01.18 | calvarez | it's important to diostinguish the two |
| 17:01.35 | calvarez | I can assure you it would be pretty easy to make a totally unintuitive CLi interface |
| 17:01.40 | vontrapp | maquis meant guis are poorly designed? |
| 17:01.50 | calvarez | hmm, that is extremely subjective |
| 17:01.50 | maquis | apple has some ok ones... but 99% of the time, i end up spending forever trying to find the thing i want to chane |
| 17:02.03 | vontrapp | calvarez: i'm merely saying that the GUI isn't better in and of itself |
| 17:02.10 | vontrapp | yes, a well done gui can be very good |
| 17:02.14 | calvarez | maquis, that's because you're a power user. Most users don't customize things |
| 17:02.14 | maquis | and it would be much easier for me to open up a config file and editing the value manually |
| 17:02.19 | vontrapp | but the majority are _not_ well done |
| 17:02.52 | maquis | calvarez: changing the desktop background on my mom's mac should not be a power-user task |
| 17:03.11 | calvarez | vontrapp, I disagree, I think it is |
| 17:03.20 | vontrapp | a GUI is better just by virtue of being a GUI? |
| 17:03.26 | vontrapp | well, to each his own, i dissagree |
| 17:03.27 | calvarez | maquis, changing a background is not a daunting task |
| 17:03.39 | maquis | calvarez: my mom couldn't figure it out on her own |
| 17:03.43 | calvarez | vontrapp, in its context, yes. |
| 17:03.54 | calvarez | there are other contexts in which a GUI is clearly inferior to CLI |
| 17:04.07 | maquis | i tried, and it took me a long time to figure out how to get the options and everything |
| 17:04.16 | maquis | and where to change it |
| 17:04.23 | calvarez | but there are many others in which GUIs are objectively better than CLI |
| 17:04.49 | maquis | on my machine, i just tell it "chbg -scale foo.jpg" |
| 17:04.59 | vontrapp | it's still always possible to make a gui worse than some cli could possibly do |
| 17:05.02 | calvarez | maquis, I hope you don't get mad, but I think you're putting undue weight on the complexity of the task |
| 17:05.05 | levi | maquis: And your mother would have been able to find that? |
| 17:05.41 | levi | maquis: On my current desktop, I just right-click and select 'change background image' |
| 17:05.41 | calvarez | levi makes a good point |
| 17:05.53 | maquis | calvarez: likely it was more difficult for me than it would've been for other people... since i don't work with GUIs on a regular basis, it took me a long time to find it |
| 17:06.25 | levi | The only reason I even ventured into GUI programming for my last project is that it was ridiculous to try to do it on the CLI. |
| 17:06.31 | calvarez | maquis, and suppose I haven't used CLIs in a regular basis before. How long do you thik it would have taken me to figure out "chbg -scale foo.jpg" |
| 17:06.41 | maquis | calvarez: true... |
| 17:06.46 | calvarez | more or less than Rightclick->change background image |
| 17:06.52 | vontrapp | apt-cache search background |
| 17:06.59 | vontrapp | oh, look, lots of programs that could do it |
| 17:07.01 | vontrapp | :) |
| 17:07.04 | calvarez | that's what I'm saying: when it comes to complete iliteracy, GUIs win hands down |
| 17:07.39 | calvarez | for other more advanced stuff (technical tasks that require a high level of customization, like configuring apache), using GUIs is inferior to CLI |
| 17:07.49 | levi | maquis: If your mother's computer only had a cli, I would guess that she wouldn't not even attempt to use it. |
| 17:07.53 | calvarez | but GUIs are used for desktop tasks anyways |
| 17:08.00 | levi | Er, s/wouldn't/would/ |
| 17:08.23 | maquis | levi: perhaps true... |
| 17:08.28 | emcnabb | my mom ssh'ed into our server and ran pine for her mail client for 4 years |
| 17:08.31 | emcnabb | anyone can do it! |
| 17:08.33 | maquis | i guess my brain just doesn't work in gui mode |
| 17:08.38 | vontrapp | i agree that guis are more learnable |
| 17:08.44 | levi | maquis: Or if she did, she'd have a post-it next to it with the exact commands needed to do the few tasks she found absolutely necessary. |
| 17:08.47 | vontrapp | but that doesn't mean the _work_ _better_ |
| 17:08.56 | vontrapp | *they |
| 17:08.59 | maquis | levi: she does that anyways |
| 17:09.00 | elg | jsmith-lunch: are you close to richfield? |
| 17:09.17 | calvarez | maquis, what I'm trying to say is that GUI don't "clot and bog thingd down" in general. I just think most of the tasks you do are probably best accomplished using the CLI. But that doesn't mean GUIs are inferior to CLI. |
| 17:09.19 | maquis | she has lists of every step involved in getting music from a cd onto her ipod |
| 17:09.31 | vontrapp | and making a cli learnable for a particular problem space is non-trivial |
| 17:09.40 | vontrapp | er, is trivial |
| 17:09.44 | maquis | calvarez: ok.. but i'll still hold that CLI is not inferior to GUI either |
| 17:10.02 | levi | CLIs and GUIs are not exclusive; they can co-exist! |
| 17:10.06 | calvarez | I'm not saying it's inferior, they're obviously superior/inferior in different problem spaces |
| 17:10.20 | calvarez | again, I would not use a GUI to edit httpd.conf |
| 17:10.33 | maquis | levi: could you please explain that to m$ so that they can provide plain-text config files for those of us who want to configure something and can't find the checkbox they need? |
| 17:10.37 | calvarez | but I would not design a GUI in vi/emacs |
| 17:10.41 | vontrapp | i still think making a gui does not make it good |
| 17:10.50 | calvarez | define "good" |
| 17:11.04 | vontrapp | bad interaction is bad interaction, regardless how you do it |
| 17:11.06 | levi | maquis: Perhaps more things will be configurable from the CLI in Vista with their new shell. |
| 17:11.09 | calvarez | most regular user software is indeed "made good" by adding a GUI |
| 17:11.09 | levi | I don't know. |
| 17:11.13 | vontrapp | calvarez: frustrates people |
| 17:11.13 | levi | And don't really care. |
| 17:11.15 | maquis | levi: that'd be nice |
| 17:11.27 | calvarez | vontrapp, what people? expert users? |
| 17:11.31 | maquis | although, i kind-of doubt i'm going to be running vista even at work |
| 17:11.36 | vontrapp | everyone |
| 17:11.39 | levi | Though I think the ideas behind their new shell are pretty cool. |
| 17:11.43 | calvarez | vontrapp, I can assure you new users will be 100x more frustrated with CLI |
| 17:11.49 | levi | maquis: Probably not at first, but eventually. |
| 17:11.54 | vontrapp | that depends on the cli |
| 17:11.57 | vontrapp | just as it depends on the gui |
| 17:12.01 | calvarez | no, CLIs in general |
| 17:12.10 | vontrapp | a gui is not an automatic upgrade |
| 17:12.10 | maquis | levi: not until they replace every windows box at the company..... |
| 17:12.19 | calvarez | most people won't start learning 50 commands |
| 17:12.23 | calvarez | to get around |
| 17:12.28 | levi | maquis: Eventually, they will. |
| 17:12.35 | maquis | levi: maybe |
| 17:12.41 | calvarez | and they sure won't bother looking up in a reference manual every lione they type |
| 17:12.42 | calvarez | line* |
| 17:12.50 | vontrapp | now, that said, i do think that GUI's have a higher potential than cli |
| 17:12.54 | levi | maquis: How long do you expect them to be using the same computers? |
| 17:13.06 | vontrapp | but that has to be realized through good interaction |
| 17:13.12 | vontrapp | design |
| 17:13.23 | maquis | levi: i can see them potentially switching off of windows before that point... |
| 17:13.28 | calvarez | vontrapp, you're missing the pointy: nobody is saying all software is automatically upgraded when a GUI is added |
| 17:13.31 | calvarez | point* |
| 17:13.49 | vontrapp | i said it wasn't and you dissagreed |
| 17:14.09 | levi | Well, if they switch off of Windows, that's another story. That's quite an undertaking for an organization the size of Amazon. |
| 17:14.28 | calvarez | software that 1)is intended for regular, non-tech-savvy users and 2)interacts directly with the user SHOULD have a GUI option at least |
| 17:14.36 | maquis | levi: only minimal things are in windows currently |
| 17:14.53 | calvarez | and most of the problems with the adoption of linux in the desktop market by non-power-users has to do with the above premise |
| 17:15.11 | emcnabb | I think GUIs and CLIs suck. I'm all for togglable switches on the front of computers |
| 17:15.46 | vontrapp | calvarez: i would counter that software 1) for _any_ user and 2) interacts directly with said user should have a well designed interaction, whether GUI or CLI |
| 17:16.15 | calvarez | vontrapp, I would hold both premises to be true |
| 17:16.33 | calvarez | yours and mine |
| 17:16.34 | vontrapp | except the first misses the target |
| 17:16.38 | calvarez | nah it doesn't |
| 17:16.51 | vontrapp | and by following it one would simple make a gui, not necessarily any good interaction |
| 17:17.14 | calvarez | I wasn't talking about any user, I was talking about general-use desktop software for non-tech-savvy users |
| 17:17.19 | calvarez | those should have good GUIs |
| 17:18.05 | vontrapp | it just places a false emphasis on the GUI |
| 17:18.44 | calvarez | hmph |
| 17:18.50 | vontrapp | if you design a nice interaction for your users, and said interaction works well in a gui, then by all means make a gui, but design the interaction first |
| 17:19.06 | calvarez | well, the discussions degenerated |
| 17:19.10 | calvarez | discussion* |
| 17:19.14 | calvarez | I can't type today |
| 17:19.45 | calvarez | so, it's more OpenGL programmign for me now |
| 17:21.01 | ^Migs^ | I just screwed myself over with modularity |
| 17:21.21 | ^Migs^ | I made my app so simple that it only took one request input that now it's not extensible |
| 17:22.29 | vontrapp | anyway, i recommend the book to everyone: http://www.amazon.com/Inmates-Are-Running-Asylum-Products/dp/0672326140 |
| 17:26.35 | ^Migs^ | are you going to buy it for me? |
| 17:27.30 | vontrapp | you can borrow mine when i'm done :) |
| 17:29.59 | ^Migs^ | really? |
| 17:30.19 | vontrapp | sure, just don't make me drive to salt lake |
| 17:30.46 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 17:31.03 | *** part/#utah fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 17:31.08 | ^Migs^ | why would you drive to salt lake? |
| 17:31.15 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:250:8dff:fe71:9a6b) |
| 17:31.54 | ^Migs^ | do you think I live in salt lake or something? |
| 17:31.58 | ^Migs^ | Don't be slcentric |
| 17:32.05 | ^Migs^ | I live in Roy |
| 17:32.09 | vontrapp | a lot of people here do |
| 17:32.14 | maquis | where's roy? |
| 17:32.20 | ^Migs^ | by Ogden |
| 17:32.28 | vontrapp | and, incedently, driving to roy implies driving to salt lake :P |
| 17:32.31 | maquis | i don't think vontrapp wants to drive there either |
| 17:32.45 | ^Migs^ | why? |
| 17:32.56 | ^Migs^ | how should I know where you live? You could live a block away from me. |
| 17:33.05 | ^Migs^ | that's fine. You can pay for the two-way shipping then. |
| 17:34.29 | vontrapp | the comment was meant to be interpreted as, "it's your responsibility to get it from me, and return it" |
| 17:35.01 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 17:35.09 | emcnabb | vontrapp: "Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." |
| 17:35.16 | ^Migs^ | uh no |
| 17:35.30 | maquis | emcnabb: well-spoken |
| 17:35.32 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: what are you talking about? |
| 17:35.32 | ^Migs^ | you're the one recommending the book, so you're the one who needs to make it available to us |
| 17:35.39 | emcnabb | how do you know I was talking to him about that |
| 17:35.40 | emcnabb | ? |
| 17:35.43 | emcnabb | the book? |
| 17:35.47 | emcnabb | you make so many assumptions |
| 17:35.50 | vontrapp | it's available, come get it ;) |
| 17:36.33 | vontrapp | c'mon, while you're down here you can buy christmas gifts at university mall! |
| 17:36.43 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:250:8dff:fe71:9a6b) |
| 17:37.54 | ^Migs^ | no, you're making so many assumptions, emcnabb. You, for one, are assuming I was actually speaking to you. |
| 17:38.59 | emcnabb | I never said you were speaking to me |
| 17:39.06 | emcnabb | I just decided to speak |
| 17:39.09 | emcnabb | to vontrapp |
| 17:39.56 | ^Migs^ | web pages need a third scroll bar, to move in 3 dimensions |
| 17:39.56 | vontrapp | and i just assumed he was speaking to someone else :/ |
| 17:40.14 | ^Migs^ | i just assume everyone on earth is talking to me. A fair assumption, I think. |
| 17:40.14 | emcnabb | ~lart vontrapp |
| 17:40.26 | emcnabb | ^Migs^: no, people don't care about you that much |
| 17:40.54 | emcnabb | so egocentric |
| 17:41.17 | maquis | emcnabb: sup? |
| 17:41.44 | Migs | maquis: not much, just sitting here |
| 17:42.15 | Migs | waiting for homework to print |
| 17:42.19 | maquis | ~beat Migs |
| 17:42.24 | ibot | ACTION beats Migs with a very wet, sticky noodle |
| 17:42.24 | Migs | listening to code monkey |
| 17:42.56 | ^-^-^-MIGS-^-^-^ | ~lart maquis |
| 17:43.01 | ^-^-^-MIGS-^-^-^ | ~lart vontrapp |
| 17:43.35 | maquis | ~lameometer ^-^-^-MIGS-^-^-^ |
| 17:52.10 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:55.56 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp38.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 18:09.29 | ^Migs^ | I'm tired of everyone listening to Mannheim Steamroller Christmas music |
| 18:10.01 | elg | people should listen to more bach |
| 18:10.11 | elg | and less mariah carey |
| 18:10.14 | ^Migs^ | IAW elg |
| 18:10.37 | ^Migs^ | just get a balanced amount of Christmas variety |
| 18:11.11 | elg | and a lot less country music |
| 18:12.40 | vontrapp | islam awareness week? |
| 18:12.57 | elg | anyone played settlers of Canaan? |
| 18:13.02 | ^Migs^ | I'm listening to heavy metal Christmas right now, for example |
| 18:13.25 | findlay | most metals are heavy |
| 18:13.28 | elg | trans siberian gets older faster than mannheim |
| 18:13.29 | ^Migs^ | actually, switching over to Gary Hoey |
| 18:13.31 | elg | er, gets old |
| 18:13.40 | ^Migs^ | not so, findlay. There's plenty of folk metal, symphonic metal... |
| 18:13.54 | ^Migs^ | yeah, it does. I don't even like transsiberian all that much, anyway. |
| 18:14.07 | findlay | you mean, like, aluminum and titanium? |
| 18:15.43 | elg | I like mannheim in reasonable quantities. and some of their stuff doesn't get old, mostly the period stuff |
| 18:15.55 | findlay | ugh |
| 18:16.05 | findlay | you can have them all you want |
| 18:16.18 | *** join/#utah scothoser (n=scothose@wifi-177145.aoce.utah.edu) |
| 18:17.42 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@otherlab.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:17.59 | elg | what I really like though is bagpipers go wassailing |
| 18:22.56 | *** join/#utah elg_ (n=fugalh@dhcp31.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 18:26.19 | mheath[laptop] | Heh. I'm forgetting what its like to be in scholl. |
| 18:26.32 | mheath[laptop] | I went to make a bunch of phone calls to some of these Sea Cadet kids about an upcoming event |
| 18:26.39 | mheath[laptop] | Wondering why no one is home |
| 18:26.50 | mheath[laptop] | Then I realize, it's 11:00 on a Tuesday morning :P |
| 18:27.23 | goozbach | aparently you forget what it is like to be in "SCHool" :) |
| 18:29.33 | emcnabb | he meant "I'm forgetting what its like to be in 'Dr' scholl 'padded shoes'" |
| 18:33.17 | levi | mheath[laptop]: Whereas in the real world, they would all be at work instead. |
| 18:37.35 | vontrapp | nah, in the real world they would be in some house full of cameras, with their shirt art pixelized |
| 18:39.08 | emcnabb | in the real world they'd be sailing the ocean blue |
| 18:42.32 | *** join/#utah jsmith-lunch (n=jsmith@000-170-333.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 18:44.01 | *** topic/#utah by elg_ -> Channel for OSS discussion | See http://www.plug.org/node/28 | PHP workshop hosted by OALUG & UPHPU Jan 27 in Ogden- Watch http://groups.google.com/group/oalug for details | emcnabb wants a duck for Christmas |
| 18:44.36 | goozbach | vontrapp: http://www.cafepress.com/ironicsans/1843266 |
| 18:44.52 | goozbach | get you a t-shirt which will prepare you for the Real World |
| 18:58.56 | SB1-Work | So, the KFC that was recently struck by PETA activists? Is now missing two (large) windows |
| 19:00.20 | macnewbold | I always think that everyone is better off without Windows |
| 19:00.23 | emcnabb | this is a good PETA video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY |
| 19:00.41 | macnewbold | even if you have Windows, broken is the usual state |
| 19:02.50 | goozbach | no news sites have this KFC thing |
| 19:03.05 | mheath | Wow. MySpace scares me =\ |
| 19:03.33 | mheath | Looked up a MySpace page for someone I know (one of the other adult leaders I work with in the USNSCC).....their stuff is completely different than I would have thought. |
| 19:03.47 | SB1-Work | goozbach, drive by it and check it out yourself. state street and I-80 north onramp, right next to the south salt lake city hall |
| 19:04.49 | mheath | Didn't someone here work at Weber State University? |
| 19:04.58 | mheath | As a computer tech |
| 19:05.59 | Jayce^ | yeah goozbach drive on up here :) |
| 19:08.37 | findlay | stupid svn |
| 19:09.51 | goozbach | SB1-Work: ok will do |
| 19:10.01 | graphyx | anyone have redbeards email address? |
| 19:10.14 | goozbach | let's see I'll need at least two hotel stays, an IV of mt-dew |
| 19:10.19 | goozbach | and a catheter |
| 19:10.25 | findlay | redbeard@redbard's-kitchen.com |
| 19:11.55 | SB1-Work | goozbach, there's a Hilton about ten steps away from it |
| 19:12.39 | graphyx | findley, are you sure about that? |
| 19:13.09 | graphyx | I didn't think ' was a legal email character. |
| 19:13.27 | graphyx | err... domain character. |
| 19:17.43 | findlay | heh |
| 19:21.37 | findlay | graphyx: you can go to openclue.org/ut/ and search for redbeard's blog |
| 19:22.26 | graphyx | did that. |
| 19:22.40 | graphyx | didnt find ad email. |
| 19:22.42 | maquis | graphyx: you could post a comment to his blog |
| 19:22.48 | maquis | or you could hang out and ping him |
| 19:23.08 | maquis | ~onjoin redbeard1 ping graphyx |
| 19:23.08 | ibot | maquis: ok |
| 19:23.25 | maquis | graphyx: there... when he gets online, he'll ping you :) |
| 19:23.59 | elg | heh. /. article on old people tech. " |
| 19:24.31 | elg | ... with an eye to ... user's dignity. Some examples would be Pill Pets, stuffed animals with LCD's that tell their owners when to take their medicine" |
| 19:24.37 | elg | sounds real dignified |
| 19:27.28 | maquis | that's cute |
| 19:27.56 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (i=tristanb@oalug/member/tristanbob) |
| 19:30.19 | calvarez | here they're doing the same but with handheld devices or robots |
| 19:32.36 | *** join/#utah Robdor (n=robdor@208.187.198.179) |
| 21:02.19 | graphyx | What is the simplest way to update a dns record of a dynamic ip? |
| 21:03.34 | elg | -lart natural deduction |
| 21:03.50 | elg | I'm supposed to show that (p or q) and not p implies q |
| 21:04.26 | goozbach | graphyx: change your hostname an request another lease? |
| 21:04.36 | levi | elg: Time for truth tables? ;) |
| 21:04.53 | elg | which is so absurdly obvious as to defy breaking it apart |
| 21:06.00 | elg | there's a set of rules none of which seem to give me the power to deduce q from p or q and not p on separate lines (which is technically different from the original) |
| 21:06.17 | levi | What do you mean, on separate lines? |
| 21:08.14 | levi | In my work on logical resolution, it made no difference at all whether a conjunction was listed on a single line with an explicit ^ or on two. |
| 21:08.38 | maquis | elg: p || q == !(!p && !q) |
| 21:09.05 | maquis | !(!p && !q) && !q => p |
| 21:09.22 | elg | levi: they have a rule that splits and to one or the other (or both) on its own line |
| 21:09.27 | maquis | is that kind-of what you're looking for? |
| 21:09.29 | elg | so you can use it "unencumbered" |
| 21:09.39 | levi | elg: Right, the and-elimination rule. |
| 21:10.04 | elg | maquis: we don't have no de morgan's here |
| 21:10.17 | maquis | elg: you mean you can't use anything besides what you have? |
| 21:10.33 | maquis | do you have anything that would let you create de morgan's? |
| 21:11.19 | elg | what I have and three simple rules. Reiterate (restate an assumption), introduce or eliminate conditionals, and introduce or eliminate negation |
| 21:11.23 | elg | ok, 5 rules |
| 21:11.39 | mheath[laptop] | Why do Hollywood movies have a bad habit of showing interior sets that could never fit into the exterior sets in reality? |
| 21:11.48 | elg | i should be able to create de morgans, yes |
| 21:12.02 | elg | but it wouldn't do much good |
| 21:12.29 | maquis | hmmm |
| 21:12.34 | elg | at some point, I'm going to make the assumption (p or q) and !p, then show that I can derive q, and from that I can declare that (p or q) and !p -> q |
| 21:12.38 | levi | elg: Are you using intuitionistic/constructive logic? |
| 21:13.31 | elg | whatever this book is talking about "Our natural deduction system is taken largely from the Fitch-style system in Leblanc an dWisdom's Deductive Logic (supplemented with standard rules for equality)" |
| 21:13.50 | elg | it's similar to this http://ruccs.rutgers.edu/~logic/naturalDeduction2.pdf |
| 21:14.25 | elg | which I am reading and hoping will have some enlightenment |
| 21:15.29 | elg | bingo. see disjunctive syllogism |
| 21:15.37 | levi | Okay, something totally different. |
| 21:16.39 | findlay | bingo? Is that a mathematical word? |
| 21:17.37 | findlay | if you wanted a lossless photograph, would you go with lossless jpeg or png? |
| 21:18.48 | levi | I haven't heard of lossless jpeg before. |
| 21:18.48 | elg | png |
| 21:18.48 | findlay | well, I guess there's a lossless compression scheme for jpeg |
| 21:18.49 | elg | but what's the point? lossless is lossless |
| 21:18.55 | elg | if your image is huge, and jpeg's compression is better |
| 21:18.57 | elg | then there's a reason |
| 21:19.00 | elg | otherwise just go with png |
| 21:19.08 | elg | and avoid any confusion about its losslessity |
| 21:19.46 | findlay | and latent disgust with jpeg's patent exploiter |
| 21:20.11 | levi | Unless 'lossless jpeg' actually uses a fundamentally different algorithm than jpeg, I can't see it working very well. |
| 21:21.34 | findlay | http://www.jpeg.org/jpeg/jpegls.html |
| 21:21.37 | levi | JPEG works by doing a discrete cosine transform on your image, then discarding high-frequency data. That leaves a bunch of similar values, which then get run-length encoded. |
| 21:21.43 | Tene | http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_031.htm |
| 21:22.42 | levi | Huh. Sounds like a completely different algorithm, so it probably works pretty well. |
| 21:23.36 | elg | that's near lossless |
| 21:23.38 | elg | not lossless |
| 21:23.43 | elg | like almost dead |
| 21:23.49 | elg | or a white lie |
| 21:24.47 | findlay | I bet most cameras are too stupid to even offer the lossless format anyway |
| 21:25.00 | findlay | so I guess it's a pointless question |
| 21:27.19 | levi | elg: It said lossless /and/ near-lossless. |
| 21:27.44 | levi | findlay: Well, if you want lossless, you want your camera to output in RAW mode. |
| 21:27.44 | graphyx | goozbach: I have a cable modem. and a mini server at home. I just want to be able to maintain its ip if it changes. |
| 21:29.48 | findlay | it problably doesn't do lossful, though, or even near-lossful |
| 21:30.23 | elg | "the scope of the new standard was defined as effective lossless and near lossless compression of continuous-tone, grey scale and colour still images. " |
| 21:30.31 | elg | I'm not convinced that it's true lossless by that sentence |
| 21:30.46 | elg | however on the LOCO site it looks like it is |
| 21:30.54 | elg | lossless/near lossless |
| 21:32.48 | levi | My goodness, why do so many idiots feel like writing their own Lisp?: http://redlisp.blogspot.com/ |
| 21:33.21 | elg | because they think it's a simple language |
| 21:34.29 | levi | I suspect it's more likely to be because they're Paul Graham fanboys. |
| 21:37.47 | Tene | graphyx: dyndns is nice. |
| 21:38.43 | maquis | graphyx: i saw a cool thing (i think in bsd hacks?) where they set up their machine so that if its IP changed, it would send a jabber message to the owner to inform them that the IP had changed and what the new IP was... |
| 21:39.09 | maquis | not quite as simple as dyndns, but more fun... :) |
| 21:39.43 | Tene | All the Jabber perl libraries i've been able to find really suck. |
| 21:39.56 | graphyx | Tene: Is it free? |
| 21:40.06 | elg | theres's a script that will do jabber from the cli |
| 21:40.16 | elg | so all you need are backticks |
| 21:41.28 | Tene | graphyx: yes |
| 21:41.37 | graphyx | I think that I will just write a perl script to update everydns daily. |
| 21:42.16 | elg | speaking of everydns |
| 21:42.20 | elg | ~host westernsaw.fugal.net |
| 21:42.28 | ibot | see nslookup westernsaw.fugal.net |
| 21:42.37 | elg | ~nslookup westernsaw.fugal.net |
| 21:42.50 | elg | everydns doesn't seem to be updating its records |
| 21:44.15 | graphyx | really? |
| 21:44.25 | graphyx | That is a problem. |
| 21:44.31 | elg | dig @fugal.net westernsaw.fugal.net |
| 21:44.36 | elg | it's been a week now |
| 21:44.45 | *** join/#utah [Utah]tristanbob (i=tristanb@137.190.3.107) |
| 21:44.53 | levi | He's calling his 'web framework' Lisp on Crack. |
| 21:44.55 | elg | I haven't investigated further, but afaict everything's in order |
| 21:45.06 | graphyx | ever since the DDos attacks? |
| 21:45.18 | elg | i don't know when... it's been a while since I made a dns change |
| 21:45.25 | elg | like, a year |
| 21:47.05 | mheath[laptop] | I really like Thunderbirds threading, but the algorithms for computing threading are horrible |
| 21:47.35 | elg | i really like threading, but thunderbird messes it up in so many ways |
| 21:47.49 | mheath[laptop] | It only realizes that "Re: n" are in the same thread as "n" for one |
| 21:47.53 | elg | thunderbird's threading is analogous to novell's OOo |
| 21:48.23 | mheath[laptop] | And it can't tell that "n" and "n" are different threads, despite one being 3 years old and the newer one just coincidentally the same name |
| 21:49.00 | mheath[laptop] | Thunderbird reports that theres new mail, and I have to scroll through my entire list of e-mail to see where it is; I discover it's been stuck under a 3 year old thread. |
| 21:49.06 | mheath[laptop] | elg, I mean, I like its features. |
| 21:49.07 | elg | threading should be based on the in-reply-to header, and users with broken MUAs should be flogged |
| 21:49.49 | elg | you mean like how it won't let you sort threads based on the newest message, but instead insists on leaving them sorted based on the first message? |
| 21:50.13 | mheath[laptop] | elg, thats one of the things I'm complaining about |
| 21:50.18 | mheath[laptop] | <mheath[laptop]> Thunderbird reports that theres new mail, and I have to scroll through my entire list of e-mail to see where it is; I discover it's been stuck under a 3 year old thread. |
| 21:50.23 | elg | or perhaps you like the useless 'watch thread' and 'kill thread' features of its newsreader |
| 21:50.51 | elg | or maybe you like the utter inconfigurability of what constitutes thread continuation |
| 21:50.52 | mheath[laptop] | elg, I'm talking about e-mail list threading only. I have no experience with newsreader features |
| 21:51.14 | elg | you can 'watch' and 'kill' in mailing list folders too |
| 21:52.58 | elg | maybe you like how it expands a random large thread when first entering the folder, so instead of a nice list of thread topics you see part of one large thread that is neither the oldest active thread nor the newest one |
| 21:56.53 | elg | but seriously, I'm interested in what you like about thunderbird threading, other than the fact that there is some threading support |
| 22:00.34 | Tene | elg: it doesn't break in-reply-to, so there's one fewer reason for people to flog you? |
| 22:02.18 | elg | oh, don't get me wrong. It's not nearly as broken as some MUAs |
| 22:02.29 | elg | in fact I use it more than mutt these days |
| 22:03.06 | elg | for various reasons of convenience that have to do with OS X's window manager |
| 22:03.22 | elg | that would probably send sjansen on a rampage. :) |
| 22:03.49 | maquis | ~seen sjansen |
| 22:04.09 | ibot | sjansen <n=sjansen@86.43.76.98> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 32d 23h 54m 21s ago, saying: '^Migs^: duh!'. |
| 22:04.10 | elg | but mutt does threads right, and thunderbird doesn't quite get it |
| 22:04.45 | emcnabb | spr_: when did you get a Mac? |
| 22:04.49 | elg | it's not that I couldn't use mutt, it's just that mutt imap is immature and slow, and also has to do with terminal management |
| 22:05.01 | spr_ | elg, ah. I'm using iTerm and local maildirs |
| 22:05.40 | elg | i use iterm too |
| 22:05.56 | elg | if I had local maildirs it would be ok, because I'd just map some key combo to fire up mutt |
| 22:06.07 | spr_ | emcnabb, last July. Picked up a Mac Mini. it's my desktop now. |
| 22:06.15 | elg | but with imap being so slow I don't like it to close mutt, but I invariably accidentally close it just 3 minutes before the next time I want to use it |
| 22:06.31 | spr_ | :) |
| 22:06.42 | elg | i used to futz about with headercache and stuf flike that |
| 22:06.51 | elg | but just gave up and use thunderbird now for my inboxes |
| 22:06.56 | elg | I still use mutt over ssh for mailing lists |
| 22:12.54 | Supaplex | :) |
| 22:14.00 | vontrapp | elg: i've got imap_cache working well on mine |
| 22:20.00 | elg | maybe I'll try it again soon |
| 22:24.56 | levi | My body is going into winter mode. I feel cold despite wearing a sweater. |
| 22:26.22 | elg | your winter mode is broken |
| 22:27.20 | elg | winter mode should help you feel warm enough even though it's chilly |
| 22:27.42 | levi | Yes; my body isn't very logical. |
| 22:28.29 | levi | Or, it could actually be cooler in the office than it is during the summer. |
| 22:39.30 | maquis | utah actually has distinct seasons... |
| 22:40.43 | levi | Yeah, two of them. |
| 22:41.06 | levi | With some brief transitional periods. |
| 22:41.34 | levi | There are also two distinct seasons in Seattle: Rainy and Dry. |
| 22:41.49 | Jayce^ | There's a Dry one? |
| 22:42.01 | levi | Yes, during the summer. |
| 22:43.05 | Jayce^ | there's Heavy Fog, Misty, Sprinkling, Showers, Snow... Yup, that's the 5 types of weather in the year.. |
| 22:43.44 | Jayce^ | it takes a true Seattlite to understand the difference between Partly Sunny and Partly Cloudy |
| 22:43.47 | levi | I don't see why everyone loves distinct seasons so much. I'd be happy with a pretty consistent high-70s/low-80s all year. |
| 22:44.22 | Jayce^ | levi, it's boring, and for me it really screwed with my "internal calendar"... |
| 22:44.43 | Jayce^ | even worse when I also lived in a climate like that south of the equator |
| 22:45.07 | levi | I also don't see why everyone is so concerned about calendars. |
| 22:45.19 | levi | And fixed holidays. |
| 22:46.05 | levi | There are plenty of interesting things to occupy me without having to be entertained by the weather. |
| 22:47.05 | levi | I never really consider it interesting; it's either nice or it's annoying. I'd prefer for it to never be annoying. There are enough other sources of annoyance. |
| 22:49.42 | maquis | Jayce^: i recall some times where the weatherman was trying not to sound repetitive during the 5-day forecast |
| 22:51.04 | Jayce^ | maquis, Steve Pool? :) |
| 22:51.26 | maquis | Jayce^: yup |
| 22:51.52 | elg | -weather klru |
| 22:51.53 | brac | 21 minutes ago, on Tue Dec 05 22:31:00 UTC 2006, the wind was calm at KLRU. The temperature was 16 degrees Celsius (61 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1023 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 23.2%. The sky was clear. |
| 22:52.00 | maquis | so, i think we had rain one day, showers the next, then it would pour the third day, and sprinkle the 4th day and i don't remember what else he had in there |
| 22:52.01 | elg | perfect |
| 22:52.14 | levi | Mmm, that does sound nice. |
| 22:52.35 | levi | It's 36F here. |
| 22:52.47 | levi | On the bright side, slightly above freezing! |
| 22:57.37 | *** join/#utah vex (n=vex@65-122-15-162.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 23:17.59 | levi | Mmm, the Ode to Joy from Beethoven's 9th. |
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| 23:51.58 | emcnabb | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-L-0s-7-Z0&mode=related&search= |
| 23:52.52 | emcnabb | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFAJDbV9Vfs&NR |
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| 23:56.30 | maquis | ~spell seperate |
| 23:56.32 | levi | Hey, dataw0lf. |
| 23:56.43 | maquis | that's what i though |
| 23:56.43 | maquis | t |
| 23:57.16 | levi | Putting 'aspirate' next to 'pirate' makes me think the wrong thing... |
| 23:57.37 | maquis | huh? |
| 23:58.04 | levi | If you pronounce the 'as' part as in 'aspirate' and the 'pirate' part as in 'pirate'.. |
| 23:58.32 | maquis | uh... ok |
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