| 00:05.21 | *** join/#utah tubbybubba (i=10138@sharedserver.org) |
| 00:06.50 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 00:06.50 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
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| 00:11.04 | redbeard1 | anyone know if costco has cranberries yet? |
| 00:25.26 | findlay | ~explode |
| 00:25.36 | ibot | BOOOM |
| 00:25.43 | findlay | oooh |
| 00:36.49 | maquis | chestnuts roasting on an open fire... |
| 00:37.44 | findlay | BOOM! |
| 00:39.07 | findlay | that's the sound a chestnut makes on an open fire |
| 00:52.13 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 01:04.11 | maquis | findlay: actually, i was thinking boom was the sound that was made by the cause of the fire that the chestnuts are roasting on |
| 01:07.56 | Sargun | Hello |
| 01:08.29 | Sargun | Does anyone know of a way to fill out a web browser's forms via python, or bash? |
| 01:08.34 | Sargun | and hit submit |
| 01:08.54 | Sargun | since this form's submission is done with javascript I can't really do it any sane way |
| 01:09.21 | findlay | Sargun: WWW::Mechanize |
| 01:09.28 | Sargun | Thats perl |
| 01:09.32 | Sargun | Isn't it? |
| 01:09.36 | findlay | yes, but it's easy |
| 01:25.14 | eco | Sargun: ClientForm |
| 01:25.28 | Sargun | eco, Yeah, I already got it |
| 01:25.31 | Sargun | thanks |
| 01:26.11 | findlay | is that the python one? |
| 01:30.28 | Sargun | mechanize is the python name for it |
| 01:33.47 | findlay | what's the kde CD player called? |
| 01:34.49 | Sargun | KCD |
| 01:34.53 | Tene | kunrelatedword |
| 01:34.57 | Sargun | kplayer |
| 01:35.05 | Sargun | * media-video/kplayer |
| 01:35.05 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:35.05 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:35.05 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:35.05 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:35.44 | findlay | well, mplayer is broken just now and the d00d next door is playing his stuff |
| 01:35.46 | findlay | (: |
| 01:35.59 | Sargun | What did you do to mplayer? |
| 01:36.25 | findlay | it remerged lib12345.something and now mplayer's broken |
| 01:36.54 | Sargun | emerge mplayer |
| 01:36.55 | Sargun | revdep-rebuild ? |
| 01:36.57 | findlay | it'll get there |
| 01:37.00 | Sargun | you n00b. |
| 01:37.02 | Sargun | :-P |
| 01:37.03 | findlay | don't you worry |
| 01:37.33 | Sargun | * kde-base/kscd |
| 01:37.33 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:37.33 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:37.34 | Sargun | this one? |
| 01:37.47 | findlay | oh yeah, I've been using mplayer on gentoo since before you were born! Now where'd I leave my walker? |
| 01:38.08 | findlay | that one's installed |
| 01:38.24 | Sargun | hahah |
| 01:39.54 | findlay | what's the new one everybody's clamoring about? |
| 01:40.53 | findlay | amorok |
| 01:44.57 | vontrapp | it's opera, which isn't actually so strange, but it's wmv, and that's strange |
| 01:45.05 | vontrapp | so what's it doing in my home dir? |
| 01:45.52 | findlay | heh |
| 01:46.26 | vontrapp | it's not so bad, sounded borderline amatuer in only some parts |
| 01:46.42 | findlay | it's a virus disguised as a watermark on la traviata |
| 01:47.14 | vontrapp | hmm, findlay's writing viruses now |
| 01:47.39 | findlay | nothing but the finest |
| 01:49.55 | vontrapp | now i make flan |
| 01:51.55 | Sargun | vontrapp, what is it? |
| 01:52.03 | Sargun | what file type |
| 01:55.53 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=mheath@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:00.05 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=mheath@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:00.13 | Sargun | vontrapp, I want some flan by the way |
| 02:01.10 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=mheath@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:01.22 | mheath | bah, enough of THAT. |
| 02:01.28 | mheath | Thank you very much, Beryl. |
| 02:01.40 | Sargun | ? |
| 02:01.44 | Sargun | DCC SEND exploit? |
| 02:02.08 | mheath | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:02.12 | Sargun | nevermind |
| 02:03.14 | mheath | I like beryl. But random X11 clashes and completely ignoring my GTK theme make it worthless. |
| 02:10.42 | emcnabb | mheath: how does Beryl compare to Compiz (I've never tried Beryl) |
| 02:10.43 | emcnabb | ? |
| 02:13.23 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@209.210.190.233) |
| 02:17.47 | Sargun | Are there any medications in which an overdose would cause loss of muscle control? (No, I'm not planning on killing anyone) |
| 02:18.09 | nick125 | Sargun: hm |
| 02:18.14 | nick125 | is this for what I'm thinking of? |
| 02:19.14 | Sargun | arg? |
| 02:19.37 | Sargun | if so ya |
| 02:20.22 | nick125 | yah |
| 02:31.43 | findlay | loss of music control? |
| 02:31.50 | findlay | I've got it |
| 02:31.54 | Sargun | findlay, Yes? |
| 02:32.01 | Sargun | Mac OS X? |
| 02:32.07 | findlay | with reckless abandon |
| 02:33.29 | findlay | you can't go wrong with Rachmaninov |
| 02:37.50 | findlay | as for what you *can* go wrong with, ask the guy next door, for it seems to consist only of thumping patterns |
| 02:38.29 | Sargun | lol |
| 02:41.22 | nick125 | lol |
| 02:44.30 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 02:54.03 | nick125 | elg! |
| 02:54.21 | Tene | findlay: you don't like thumping? |
| 03:02.32 | elg | last I checked |
| 03:13.09 | levi_home | Good evening. |
| 03:15.51 | vontrapp | Sargun: what's flan? |
| 03:17.13 | Sargun | No, what media format is opera.wmv in? |
| 03:17.52 | vontrapp | windows media video |
| 03:20.42 | levi_home | WMV is a container type; there are several different codecs that can be used with it. |
| 03:26.04 | Sargun | LALR? |
| 03:27.50 | brailsmt | ok, i have a bunch of rar files, how can i piece them together to get an avi? |
| 03:44.44 | Tene | brailsmt: unrar |
| 03:46.57 | elg | brailsmt: lots of cursing |
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| 04:02.40 | mheath | emcnabb: as of right now, the differences are negligible |
| 04:03.02 | mheath | Actually, my biggest observation is that beryl is current less stable |
| 04:03.06 | mheath | And there are less themes |
| 04:03.23 | mheath | And, like I said, my GTK themes, icons, etc all get ignored with Beryl |
| 04:03.28 | mheath | whereas they worked in Compiz |
| 04:03.42 | mheath | This might be a configuration issue, but I didn't have to configure a thing in Compiz to get those to work. |
| 04:18.51 | *** join/#utah mrpull- (n=misterpu@mail.pollmann.us) |
| 04:37.02 | findlay | Tene: not usually |
| 04:59.46 | levi_home | Yay, I have a working LALR parser for this assignment. |
| 05:01.06 | levi_home | Now for the hard part... writing the theorem prover. |
| 05:06.22 | findlay | levi_home: do you know what /usr/lib64/sbcl/sbcl.core would be? |
| 05:10.49 | findlay | I suppose it's the 'core' |
| 05:11.07 | findlay | file has no magic for lispy objects it seems |
| 05:11.09 | levi_home | findlay: Yes, it's the runtime image for sbcl. |
| 05:11.39 | findlay | I see |
| 05:11.41 | levi_home | It's got the compiler and libraries and such in it. |
| 05:11.58 | levi_home | It gets mmapped when you run sbcl. |
| 05:12.10 | mheath | bah, this sucks. |
| 05:12.46 | mheath | I went to pick up some tip money at work (ToGo's use a shared till; tips get split up at the end of the night, so if you get to go home first, the closing person sticks your tip money in an envelope for you) |
| 05:13.12 | mheath | Whats annoying is, I had two people pick up shifts for me this week. IE, I was already there, they came in and said "anyone want to go home?" and I volunteered. |
| 05:13.48 | mheath | At the end of the day, I was left NO tip money, despite the fact that I was already on the clock for 1-2 hours, and had made $5-10 |
| 05:14.34 | mheath | what makes it even more annoying is, I have to claim on our computer system when I clock out how many tips I made. |
| 05:14.56 | mheath | And, expecting to get that $10 or so, I claimed money each time I clocked out |
| 05:15.06 | mheath | So I get taxed for money I didn't get. |
| 05:17.33 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:18.36 | mrpull- | mheath: so deduct what you didn't get from the next time you report your tips |
| 05:18.39 | mrpull- | no worries |
| 05:19.08 | mrpull- | i've been irked for some time that every waiter i've ever known never accurately reports their tips |
| 05:19.13 | mheath | mrpull-: well, yeah. it's just tedious to keep track of, and even without the tax issue, it's unfair: I did not get money that I worked for and earned. |
| 05:19.18 | mrpull- | and thus doesn't pay his/her fair share of taxes |
| 05:20.13 | mheath | mrpull-: thats because taxes are rather harsh on gratuities vs. regular income. A lot of people regard the taxing as unfair, and therefore don't bother. |
| 05:20.27 | mrpull- | how is it different? |
| 05:20.27 | mheath | We supposedly only have to claim our tips that are paid via credit card |
| 05:20.46 | mheath | For most servers, the computers keep track of that automatically |
| 05:20.52 | mrpull- | I bet the IRS would like you to report the cash tips too. |
| 05:20.55 | mrpull- | Just a guess |
| 05:21.07 | mheath | mrpull-: No. |
| 05:21.11 | mrpull- | why? |
| 05:21.19 | mrpull- | and cite a trustworthy source |
| 05:22.06 | mheath | mrpull-: because of the way its handled. |
| 05:22.13 | mrpull- | legally? |
| 05:22.27 | findlay | lugubriously? |
| 05:22.28 | mheath | mrpull-: I claim my cash income as personal income on a tax return. |
| 05:22.29 | mrpull- | what fraction of a waiter's income comes from cash tips? |
| 05:22.49 | mrpull- | and why should that fraction not be taxed when 100% of my income is taxed because I am salaried? |
| 05:22.55 | mheath | mrpull-: Only the credit card tips are on the employers W-2 |
| 05:23.05 | mheath | Cash tips are income directly to me |
| 05:23.15 | mheath | Credit Card Tips are income to the establishment that is disbursed to me |
| 05:23.39 | mheath | So I have to report my credit card tips to the establishment so they can accurately report that on the W-2. |
| 05:23.46 | Sargun | Recommend people to pay in cash |
| 05:24.12 | mheath | mrpull-: I have no idea. I'm not a waiter. |
| 05:24.26 | Sargun | Janitor? |
| 05:24.27 | Sargun | :-P |
| 05:24.42 | levi_home | mrpull-: He's still paying taxes on them, just on a different line on the tax form. More tax, in fact, unless things work different for tips than for other personal income. |
| 05:25.07 | mheath | mrpull-: thats why it bugs me that I accidentally report income I never received |
| 05:25.25 | mheath | Because that is legally saying "Today, my employer gave me $10", when that never happens. |
| 05:25.30 | mrpull- | mheath: so are you keeping a record of your cash tips to report on your tax forms this spring? |
| 05:25.56 | mrpull- | levi_home: I know that is how it works in an ideal situation |
| 05:26.07 | mrpull- | i just know a lot of people that don't report their cash tips AT ALL |
| 05:26.36 | mheath | mrpull-: I do not keep a perfectly accurate record. |
| 05:26.59 | findlay | so, you're stealing from the government! |
| 05:27.11 | mrpull- | findlay: not from the government... |
| 05:27.17 | mrpull- | stealing from the citizens! |
| 05:27.28 | mheath | Stealing from the citizens? |
| 05:27.37 | mheath | I give a generalized figure |
| 05:27.41 | findlay | people like me, you know, make their living off government grants. You pay taxes to support my impractical research |
| 05:27.48 | mheath | I could overclaim by $1,000 and still pay no taxes on it. |
| 05:28.03 | mheath | I'm a young guy living at home who makes, comparatively, almost no money. |
| 05:28.05 | findlay | because the citizens of this country don't know what's good for them |
| 05:28.51 | mheath | Last year, I got more money back than I had to pay in taxes, actually, because of the way some income I got from my grandma's trust is taxed. :P |
| 05:29.38 | *** part/#utah mrpull- (n=misterpu@mail.pollmann.us) |
| 05:29.40 | findlay | but think about cold fusion. Will nobody think about the cold fusion! |
| 05:29.58 | mheath | ooh, I love GMail |
| 05:30.46 | mheath | I'm having to resend an e-mail because the recipient misplaced the original. And it was simple an e-mail earlier up in the chain of e-mails |
| 05:30.54 | mheath | Gmail neatly displays everything in the current chain |
| 05:31.05 | mheath | Other e-mail clients lose messages |
| 05:31.13 | mheath | if I really do lose something, I can just search for it |
| 05:31.13 | findlay | except that it doesn't do threading |
| 05:31.31 | findlay | if it did threading it might be a decent client |
| 05:31.56 | mheath | findlay: how does it not do threading? Thats what I'm talking about - displaying all the e-mails in a thread neatly together. |
| 05:32.03 | findlay | um, no |
| 05:32.29 | mheath | It associates that "Email", "Re: Email", "Re: Email" are all together. |
| 05:32.34 | mheath | And displays them neatly by date. |
| 05:32.42 | findlay | threading is when you reply to a message it shows up under that message and properly indented. gmail just groups all messages with the same subject |
| 05:33.26 | findlay | I've even had mail that gmail 'threads' (don't know why you think this) together that were initiated at different times for different reasons |
| 05:33.59 | findlay | and it ignores the Reply-To header, or whatever it is |
| 05:35.33 | mheath | all I know is, It simplifies my life |
| 05:35.57 | findlay | but you've never tasted the full goodness of true threading (: |
| 05:36.20 | findlay | it's hard to follow conversations otherwise |
| 05:36.26 | mheath | findlay: the benefits of said threading seem to rely somewhat on the fact that you are corresponding with intelligent people. |
| 05:36.34 | findlay | lol |
| 05:36.40 | mheath | who know how to quote and such |
| 05:38.15 | mheath | Bah. I just got a mailer daemon reply about an e-mail box being full |
| 05:38.22 | mheath | That sounds like a growing up story we'll tell our grandkids |
| 05:38.42 | mheath | "When I was your age, we had e-mail boxes so small that sometimes they'd fill up! There wouldn't be room for any more." |
| 05:38.49 | Sargun | mheath, Why don't you get a tech job? |
| 05:39.01 | mheath | Sargun: Because it's hard to do that. |
| 05:39.53 | findlay | mheath: Sargun will make you one of his admins |
| 05:39.53 | Sargun | There is a huge shortage of IT workers here |
| 05:39.56 | Sargun | findlay, Am I crazy? |
| 05:40.07 | findlay | aren't the roads paved with silicon there? |
| 05:40.16 | mheath | Sargun: Yeah. Let me just drive on down to california and go job hunting. |
| 05:41.11 | Sargun | NYC? |
| 05:41.12 | mheath | Sargun: when I got kicked out of my last job, I applied at over 30 tech places. Interviewed at 15. I have 2 years of relative work history, college level education experience. All the positions I looked at were entry level. |
| 05:41.15 | findlay | ~drive mheath crazy |
| 05:41.18 | ibot | ACTION jumps behind the wheel of a specially designed limo & chauffeurs mheath crazy anywhere he/she needs to go, while mheath crazy sits in the back playing bzflag |
| 05:41.18 | mheath | No luck. |
| 05:41.40 | Sargun | mheath, You'll enter at an entry level position, get experience, and move up from there |
| 05:41.42 | findlay | ibot: I want a job playing bzflag |
| 05:41.44 | ibot | You want a job playing bzflag? |
| 05:41.48 | findlay | ibot: yes |
| 05:41.50 | ibot | You don't say! |
| 05:41.56 | findlay | ibot: I do |
| 05:41.58 | ibot | You do? |
| 05:42.06 | findlay | I simply do |
| 05:42.08 | mheath | ibot: He does. |
| 05:42.09 | Sargun | ibot, Will you marry me |
| 05:42.13 | Sargun | ibot, Will you marry me? |
| 05:42.30 | Sargun | Stupid bot, its too smart. |
| 05:42.34 | Sargun | ibot, gender |
| 05:42.35 | ibot | I'm not sure |
| 05:42.45 | mheath | Sargun: Thanks for telling me how to get a job. Lesson 1: You can't start off working as an executive. Thanks for the advice. |
| 05:43.17 | Tene | fwiw, I got my current job by whining on IRC. ;) |
| 05:43.24 | Sargun | hah |
| 05:43.27 | mheath | Sargun: remind me where all this job hunting experiences comes from again? :-) |
| 05:43.56 | mheath | Tene: Not sure if your refering to me or not, but I'm not whining. I have a job, and I'm happy with it, but sargun seems to think I need to find a new one. |
| 05:44.19 | Sargun | Why did you get kicked out of your last job? |
| 05:44.31 | Tene | I just saw discussion of how to seek employment. |
| 05:44.43 | Tene | Not referring to anyone in particular. |
| 05:44.48 | mheath | Sargun: because I had a knee injury. |
| 05:44.58 | Sargun | Oh |
| 05:44.59 | Sargun | that job... |
| 05:45.56 | mheath | I'll have a new job in about a month if everything goes according to plan, anyway. |
| 05:53.26 | mheath | Hah. I had a website complain that my password is "not strong enough" because it contains special characters. |
| 05:54.49 | Sargun | heh |
| 06:06.07 | mheath | Hmm. Where can I go to print out about 4,000 pages for cheap? |
| 06:11.11 | mheath | Time to sleep. Goodnight. |
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| 06:48.13 | findlay | ~whine |
| 06:48.21 | ibot | it has been said that whine is saying "I want you to hold my hand while I install debian because I'm too lazy to read the docs!" |
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| 07:24.28 | calvarez | yo |
| 07:27.23 | findlay | he |
| 07:27.25 | findlay | ho |
| 07:38.19 | findlay | ~sing |
| 07:38.20 | ibot | "Night fever, night fever. You know how to do it!" |
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| 13:21.34 | billfur | hm, is the gradefix guy around anywhere? |
| 13:39.21 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 14:01.22 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (i=Migs@205.122.50.21) |
| 14:02.38 | ^Migs^ | anyone want a $25 PC? These were left over from the sale we had mentioned here: http://www.weber.k12.ut.us/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=80&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 but the price is now half what it was before |
| 14:03.42 | ^Migs^ | there's still a bunch left. I got a couple to use as servers. |
| 14:29.43 | graphyx | $25 is pretty cheap. |
| 14:31.27 | ^Migs^ | yeah, it's not bad at all |
| 14:31.40 | ^Migs^ | the system's aren't state of the art or anything, but it's only $25! |
| 14:31.53 | ^Migs^ | I think there's still about 70 left |
| 14:34.28 | atoponce | ^Migs^: my wife mentioned it to me. i'll probably take one or two |
| 14:35.08 | graphyx | atoponce: Wow... why wife would drive an out of state detour before letting me bring home any orphaned hardware. |
| 14:35.28 | atoponce | hehe. yeah, i was a bit surprised myself |
| 14:35.32 | ^Migs^ | you'll have to come by between 2:00 and 3:30 to pick it up |
| 14:35.42 | atoponce | ^Migs^: m-f? |
| 14:36.19 | ^Migs^ | Monday-Thursday |
| 14:36.44 | ^Migs^ | they're the compact cases, not the towers, btw |
| 14:36.46 | atoponce | how long do you think the systems will be available? |
| 14:36.55 | ^Migs^ | I'd come as soon as possible, if you want them |
| 14:37.09 | ^Migs^ | they went pretty fast yesterday |
| 14:37.15 | atoponce | but only between 2 and 3.30 eh? |
| 14:37.21 | ^Migs^ | yup |
| 14:37.26 | atoponce | hmmmm |
| 14:37.54 | atoponce | $20 for the box and $5 for the monitor? |
| 14:38.04 | ^Migs^ | yeah |
| 14:38.24 | ^Migs^ | well, you buy the complete system. I'm not sure if they sell the parts separately. They probably do, but don't count on it. |
| 14:38.37 | ^Migs^ | then the peripherals (keyboard, mouse, power cables) are included |
| 14:39.23 | atoponce | i don't need an monitors. i'm covered in that area. :-)ยป |
| 14:39.37 | ^Migs^ | even still. It's only $25 :) |
| 14:39.49 | atoponce | ok |
| 14:39.51 | atoponce | that's fine |
| 14:40.03 | atoponce | my work was giving monitors away. so i'm good |
| 14:41.11 | ^Migs^ | come to the front door, not the back, btw. 930 W 1160 N Harrisville. Building 10-A. It has a big "Weber School District Technical Services" sign on the building |
| 14:41.35 | ^Migs^ | er |
| 14:41.37 | ^Migs^ | 930 W 200 N |
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| 15:19.04 | graphyx | iocane.cs.byu.edu? Do they now have a poison naming scheme there? |
| 15:26.33 | *** join/#utah scothoser (n=scothose@wifi-177148.aoce.utah.edu) |
| 15:31.54 | phinux | Yup. |
| 15:32.02 | scothoser | Morning everyone! |
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| 16:13.50 | mheath | wow. I believe a wikipedia contribution of mine is being discussed on the radio :P |
| 16:14.02 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@lukfugl.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 16:15.47 | mheath | I added a "This article or section is not written in the formal tone expected of an encylopedia article" to the Radio From Hell (X96) article on Wikipedia, |
| 16:16.08 | mheath | Because the article is laced with comedial comments.....stuff that really belongs in a quotations article, not in the article proper |
| 16:16.26 | elg | as if "Radio From Hell" would make it into any encyclopdeia |
| 16:16.29 | mheath | So I tune in to their radio show this morning and their talking about 'bad changes' to their wikipedia article |
| 16:16.55 | mheath | Hmm. |
| 16:17.26 | graphyx | I find it mildly interesting why you would both put bad changes into their article and listen to the show.. |
| 16:19.39 | mheath | graphyx: its not a bad change. |
| 16:19.51 | mheath | It's simply a tag saying that the tone of some sections needs revision |
| 16:19.57 | mheath | Its an encylopedia article! |
| 16:20.47 | elg | no, it's a wikipedia article |
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| 16:21.27 | redbeard1 | i'm with mheath... that article looks like it should have been proofed a little better |
| 16:22.13 | vontrapp | elg, redbeard1: what do you think of a flan pie? |
| 16:22.34 | lukfugl | mmmm, flan |
| 16:22.42 | lukfugl | but I don't know if it works as pie |
| 16:23.04 | redbeard1 | vontrapp: um. i don't know about a pie... that implies a crust to me, and i don't know if that would work all that well with flan |
| 16:23.21 | vontrapp | of course it would have a crust |
| 16:23.35 | vontrapp | and wouldn't it be great if the crust was somehow infused with that caramel goo? |
| 16:23.37 | lukfugl | what kind of crust? |
| 16:24.03 | vontrapp | you can leave the sides crusty, but the bottom would be a soft yummy juicy thing (not too juicy) |
| 16:24.11 | vontrapp | probably just pastry crust |
| 16:24.24 | vontrapp | i think i'll experiment with some kind of mini-pie on saturday |
| 16:24.36 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (i=linuxali@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 16:24.38 | redbeard1 | vontrapp: let me know how it turns out. it sounds interesting. |
| 16:24.59 | vontrapp | lukfugl: you coming to grandmas? |
| 16:25.11 | lukfugl | I love having patches accepted with 3 hours of posting them |
| 16:25.24 | lukfugl | vontrapp: not for dinner, but for pies and hang out, yes |
| 16:25.37 | lukfugl | s/with/within/ |
| 16:26.18 | vontrapp | i'm thinking i would have to partially cook the flan before putting it in the crust |
| 16:26.27 | vontrapp | temper method instead of cold-start |
| 16:26.36 | vontrapp | that way it won't get so soggy |
| 16:27.02 | vontrapp | and maybe putting the carmelized sugar on top of the crust, and as it disolves it would infuse into the crust |
| 16:27.22 | vontrapp | i also thought about under the crust, i think on top would probably be better, but i dunno |
| 16:27.48 | vontrapp | would the sugar melt enough to enter the crust if it was on bottom? or does it need the liquid to dissolve? |
| 16:28.08 | vontrapp | i would also use less carmel than normal |
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| 16:28.17 | redbeard1 | vontrapp: i recommend you look into tart tatin recipes, and in particular, the pear tart tatin recipe by emeril lagasse. they might give you some insight. |
| 16:28.33 | vontrapp | ooh, good idea |
| 16:28.48 | vontrapp | but emeril is so dry |
| 16:28.59 | vontrapp | (as in his show is painful to watch) |
| 16:29.14 | redbeard1 | vontrapp: that's a solid recipe tho. and i think it might tie into what you're thinking. |
| 16:29.22 | vontrapp | si si |
| 16:29.31 | redbeard1 | ...especially when considered next to a classic tart tatin recipe/concept |
| 16:31.39 | elg | i don't mind emeril's show so much. kind of entertaining |
| 16:31.42 | elg | lots better than iron chef |
| 16:32.20 | vontrapp | ok, but cassandra likes iron chef |
| 16:32.28 | vontrapp | at least we can agree not to watch emeril |
| 16:32.36 | elg | heh |
| 16:33.26 | redbeard1 | i can't watch emeril much anymore. ever since he moved into the new set, he's just been phoning it all in |
| 16:33.30 | vontrapp | it's especially annoying when that asian guy hosts it |
| 16:33.35 | vontrapp | he tries to be sooo dramatic |
| 16:34.40 | elg | i just don't resonate with asian culture |
| 16:35.03 | mheath | Oh, thats great! |
| 16:35.12 | elg | i think so. but that's just my opinion |
| 16:35.13 | vontrapp | mheath: ? |
| 16:35.13 | mheath | tell people on your alternative radio station to go on to wikipeida and make comments on the talk page |
| 16:35.23 | mheath | That will have great results! |
| 16:36.20 | elg | sounds like they'll get comments on their wikipedia talk page, which is probably what they want |
| 16:36.20 | vontrapp | too bad azureus still takes butloads of memory even when i explicitely give it a 16M heap size |
| 16:36.26 | elg | is it not what you want? |
| 16:36.55 | vontrapp | maybe he was actually not being sarcastic |
| 16:37.11 | vontrapp | hard to tell on irc |
| 16:38.10 | elg | i think azureus shares a lot of the blame |
| 16:38.18 | elg | as much as I'd like to blame java |
| 16:38.39 | vontrapp | oh c'mon elg, it's an excuse to blame java! |
| 16:38.50 | vontrapp | that's the point |
| 16:39.29 | redbeard1 | mheath: why don't you call in? |
| 16:39.38 | lukfugl | oh, how I love vimdiff |
| 16:39.43 | mheath | uh, can one recommend a talk page for locking on wikipedia? |
| 16:39.51 | mheath | for modification protectino |
| 16:40.23 | mheath | redbeard1: I sent them an e-mail. |
| 16:40.25 | lukfugl | mheath: just wait till the storm is over then revert it (but only with good reason) |
| 16:41.08 | mheath | lukfugl: someone stuck an abstract philosophical commentary on recent edits. |
| 16:41.13 | mheath | Its really stupid and out of place |
| 16:41.31 | mheath | "Isn't it interesting that most people just don't get it. Why does there have to be one way to approach the world? Life? War's begin as arguments and the need to be right. An open mind coupled with the willingness to see things as they are and not as we were programed and the honesty to see the real truth about ourselves. This what I have learned and appreciated from my friends Kerry, Bill and occasionally Gina and that is what they are |
| 16:41.31 | mheath | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:41.33 | vontrapp | on what page? |
| 16:42.00 | mheath | vontrapp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Radio_From_Hell |
| 16:42.23 | vontrapp | so it' sa talk page? |
| 16:42.28 | vontrapp | for talking? |
| 16:42.37 | vontrapp | sounds like talking to me |
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| 16:42.46 | mheath | vontrapp: yeah. Theres been a lot of nasty, abusive edits today though |
| 16:42.57 | mheath | Because they told people on their show to go and comment. |
| 16:43.03 | mheath | Several have been reverted. |
| 16:43.46 | vontrapp | well, when _I_ look for comments i want what people think, not what i or any particular person agrees with |
| 16:44.26 | mheath | vontrapp: Notice the Trickse comment, and mine (the anonymous one 3 down) |
| 16:44.35 | mheath | Someone added, earlier "Well, trickse is a moron" after mine. |
| 16:45.20 | mheath | Those are the kinds of edits I'm complaining about |
| 16:45.27 | vontrapp | ok, well that's not commentary |
| 16:45.31 | vontrapp | that's rabblerousing |
| 16:45.47 | vontrapp | but i don't think the philosophical example earlier was out of line |
| 16:47.18 | mheath | vontrapp: complaining that people who add an "inappropriate tone" tag to an article are evil conformists are out of line? |
| 16:48.47 | elg | aren't they? |
| 16:49.23 | vontrapp | i guess if there's clearly defined guidelines as to what an appropriate tone is |
| 16:50.14 | vontrapp | is there a deb package for ยตtorrent? |
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| 16:51.39 | vontrapp | bah! it's not even cross-platform |
| 16:51.44 | vontrapp | phoey |
| 16:54.39 | elg | vontrapp: http://javaadami.blogspot.com/2006/05/small-analysis-of-azureus-project.html |
| 16:55.15 | elg | skip his blathering at the beginning about coding and project style, read the bits about memory profiling, and skip his biased and unfounded conclusions |
| 16:55.22 | elg | the info on java memory is slightly informative |
| 16:55.59 | *** join/#utah calvarez (n=calvarez@r82h185.res.gatech.edu) |
| 16:56.53 | ^Migs^ | why are they biased and unfounded? |
| 16:57.17 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@128.187.189.237) |
| 16:57.50 | calvarez | who is biased and unfounded |
| 16:57.59 | elg | the guy is obviously a java fanboy whose sole (possibily unconcious) reason for evaluating azureus was to prove that it wasn't java that was the problem |
| 16:58.00 | calvarez | ? |
| 16:58.23 | calvarez | java fanboys, lol |
| 16:58.29 | elg | i didn't read it really carefully, but his conclusions seemed to contradict what he said just a couple of paragraphs earlier |
| 16:58.44 | ^Migs^ | I thought he made his own opinions rather clear and separate from the article |
| 16:58.51 | ^Migs^ | EXAMPLES, elg. Cite EXAMPLES. |
| 16:58.52 | calvarez | everybody knows real programmers that solve relevant real life problems use C++ |
| 16:59.06 | calvarez | the rest use other things, such as Java, Lisp, Perl, etc |
| 16:59.09 | ^Migs^ | bleh, I'm never going back to C++. |
| 16:59.15 | calvarez | for more trivial problems |
| 16:59.35 | calvarez | kindof a hobby |
| 17:00.25 | elg | ^Migs^: separate from the article? what are you talking about? |
| 17:01.34 | ^Migs^ | no, IN the article |
| 17:01.55 | ^Migs^ | burden of proof is on your shoulders here |
| 17:02.30 | elg | i don't have any desire to prove anything. I don't want to get into a detailed critique of the guy's writing. I feel that the article leaves much to be desired but has some good info on java memory usage |
| 17:02.34 | elg | nothing more |
| 17:02.34 | elg | java fanboy |
| 17:02.37 | elg | nothing less |
| 17:03.00 | ^Migs^ | well IDAW elg |
| 17:03.14 | ^Migs^ | you're just slinging insults left and right without any foundation |
| 17:03.17 | elg | ~idaw |
| 17:03.24 | ^Migs^ | IDAW = i don't agree with |
| 17:05.44 | *** part/#utah billfur (n=billfur@atarack/member/billfur) |
| 17:05.54 | elg | insulting who? |
| 17:08.39 | elg | vontrapp: http://www.caucho.com/resin-3.0/performance/jvm-tuning.xtp |
| 17:11.25 | emcnabb | ~lart elg |
| 17:11.40 | lukfugl | ow, he's already lost enough.. |
| 17:11.44 | emcnabb | elg: you're just an anti-java fanboy |
| 17:11.49 | emcnabb | lukfugl: ouch :-) |
| 17:12.03 | Jayce^ | emcnabb, that's a good thing :) |
| 17:12.08 | Jayce^ | (the anti-java) |
| 17:12.11 | *** join/#utah spig (n=spig@sento1.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:12.13 | elg | I haven't lost any hair in years :) |
| 17:12.17 | Jayce^ | the hair, well that's another matter for those fugal boys |
| 17:12.26 | elg | I have my son's hairline to prove my hairline isn't receding. it's genetic. :) |
| 17:12.27 | Jayce^ | elg, is it all just migrating? |
| 17:13.18 | lukfugl | elg: I think you just clip some weights to the back of his hair each night to reshape his scalp to your expectations :P |
| 17:13.47 | emcnabb | ~bald elg |
| 17:13.54 | calvarez | yup, anti-java is good |
| 17:13.56 | lukfugl | ~shave emcnabb |
| 17:13.58 | ibot | ACTION grabs the razor & shaving cream & chases emcnabb until he sees TheRedBaron... then grabs TheRedbaron & dry shaves TheRedBaron from head to toe! |
| 17:14.03 | calvarez | everybody knows C++ is the only way to go |
| 17:14.10 | elg | i try not to be anti java. I don't like it personally, but it's not a terrible language |
| 17:14.13 | emcnabb | ibot: you need help, lots of help |
| 17:14.15 | calvarez | and maybe python and C# for guis |
| 17:14.24 | elg | it does have its shortcomings though, like every language except ruby |
| 17:14.27 | elg | ok, ruby has a few too |
| 17:14.28 | lukfugl | ~help ibot |
| 17:14.40 | calvarez | yea, I heard about lisp |
| 17:14.51 | calvarez | (caaadddadadadaddadaddddadadadaddadadadadadadaddadar ...) |
| 17:15.06 | calvarez | ((()()((()()(()()() |
| 17:15.39 | calvarez | ((()()()((caaadadadadaadadaddadadadar ..))()()((()()(caaaaaaaa....) |
| 17:15.46 | calvarez | ;) |
| 17:15.49 | lukfugl | can't you only have one a in cad*r? |
| 17:16.05 | calvarez | lukfugl, tell me, does lisp allow that? |
| 17:16.09 | lukfugl | I guess if the car of the list is another list |
| 17:16.57 | lukfugl | calvarez: all four of those have syntax errors :) mismatched parentheses and/or invalid dots :P |
| 17:17.18 | calvarez | lukfugl, it was an illustrative example |
| 17:17.25 | lukfugl | and I don't know what the semicolon is supposed to do |
| 17:17.29 | lukfugl | calvarez: hence my smileys |
| 17:17.38 | calvarez | of why C++ is superior, in general |
| 17:17.47 | lukfugl | oh, yeah |
| 17:17.57 | calvarez | maybe not for interpreters and other help scripts |
| 17:17.59 | lukfugl | but you forgot *&q->*() |
| 17:19.05 | calvarez | yup |
| 17:19.40 | lukfugl | or &(**p.foo()->bazbut)(x?*y:&z); |
| 17:19.55 | lukfugl | (the later completely syntactically valid) |
| 17:19.59 | calvarez | that ain't illegible |
| 17:20.08 | calvarez | pretty easy, if you ask me |
| 17:20.28 | calvarez | unless, of course, a person doesn't understand how memory is addressed by a computer |
| 17:20.32 | lukfugl | calvarez: and *real* (not syntactically invalid "examples") lisp is legible to me |
| 17:20.36 | lukfugl | it's attunement |
| 17:20.54 | calvarez | in other words, syntax such as that is another example of C++'s superiority: it allows you to access memory at such low level |
| 17:21.06 | lukfugl | calvarez: I won't disagree with that |
| 17:21.13 | calvarez | while lisp's constructs are a subtle artifact of the language and not of the representation |
| 17:21.22 | lukfugl | calvarez: when did I ever say that I disliked C++? |
| 17:21.32 | calvarez | I don't know, I didn't say you did |
| 17:21.48 | calvarez | I'm just saying that your example is just another positive thing of C++ |
| 17:21.54 | lukfugl | then why are you defending it to me? :) |
| 17:22.05 | calvarez | while mine is an example of an unnecessary construct in lisp |
| 17:22.21 | calvarez | defending? I'm just stating my idea |
| 17:22.26 | calvarez | were you attacking it? |
| 17:22.32 | calvarez | I didn't know |
| 17:23.27 | calvarez | at any rate, even Lisp can be useful. I don't know if the same can be said about perl |
| 17:23.33 | lukfugl | It looked to me like you were calling LISP illegible; I pointed out that C++ isn't free of the same sin. You say C++ is legible to you, I say both are legible to me. No argument |
| 17:23.42 | levi | lukfugl: You can have arbitrary numbers of a's and d's between your c and r, though I think that only a subset of those may be defined in the standard. |
| 17:24.08 | calvarez | lukfugl, there is a difference between necessary illegibility and unnecessary illegibility |
| 17:24.47 | lukfugl | calvarez: define necessary/unnecessary. You probably do have a definition, and it might be valid for you, but I argue it's just opinion |
| 17:25.02 | calvarez | if you want to access computer resources at a very low level, well, your code might need to be more in touch with the underlying hardware, and hardware is not designed to be easy for unaided human analysis |
| 17:25.33 | lukfugl | calvarez: and I agree that *if* I'm mucking with low level hardware, I'm best off using C |
| 17:25.55 | calvarez | while lisp's illegibility (or perl's) cannot portray such things in the same manner |
| 17:26.09 | calvarez | well, in a very loose manner, C is a subset of C++ |
| 17:26.14 | calvarez | so, sure! ;) |
| 17:26.32 | elg | -lart emcnabb |
| 17:26.33 | calvarez | you can call it C, I'll call it low level, static C++ |
| 17:26.53 | lukfugl | calvarez: but try doing some of the things that Lisp makes easy in C/C++, and you'll see the value in Lisps' "illegibility" |
| 17:27.01 | calvarez | also, I wonder what language was used to write most Lisp interpreters :O |
| 17:27.04 | calvarez | ;) |
| 17:27.17 | calvarez | most likely C++, or the subset of C++ known as C |
| 17:27.25 | levi | Lisp machines had a C compiler available, though I think mostly people did low-level stuff in assembly. |
| 17:27.27 | lukfugl | calvarez: ever heard of Lisp Machines? :) |
| 17:27.57 | levi | Things they couldn't do directly in Lisp, anyway. |
| 17:28.21 | calvarez | hmm, yea, I think I heard of a couple in a museum ;) |
| 17:28.37 | levi | Common Lisp requires a 'disassemble' function, which shows what any function you wrote compiled to. |
| 17:28.51 | calvarez | but I'll be fair. You can also do C++ in a Spectrum ZX ;) |
| 17:28.52 | lukfugl | most interpreters for any language (even the Java JVM? I don't know) are written in C/C++ nowadays, because todays processors are tuned to C |
| 17:29.01 | calvarez | lukfugl, exactly |
| 17:29.11 | calvarez | that's what makes C/C++ so important |
| 17:29.14 | lukfugl | calvarez: and the point is? |
| 17:29.15 | levi | I believe the JVM is written in C++. |
| 17:29.18 | lukfugl | calvarez: I never said it wasn't |
| 17:29.19 | calvarez | call it historical accident if you may |
| 17:29.24 | calvarez | the fact still remains |
| 17:29.31 | calvarez | C++ is the basic language of all |
| 17:29.31 | lukfugl | lukfugl: just that it's not the *only* important language |
| 17:29.55 | vontrapp | just keep telling yourself that |
| 17:29.57 | calvarez | oh, no, derivative works also carry some degree of importance ;) |
| 17:30.07 | vontrapp | i'll tell myself how much java suck |
| 17:30.10 | vontrapp | vontrapp: java sucks eggs |
| 17:30.16 | calvarez | lol |
| 17:30.16 | lukfugl | talking with today's processors may best be done in C, but do *I* want to do that, or do I want to have some other language abstract that away for me (when appropriate)? |
| 17:30.38 | calvarez | lukfugl, that is fine. As I said, most important, underlying system will continue to be developed in C/C++ |
| 17:30.42 | calvarez | systems* |
| 17:31.00 | calvarez | and to make it easier for the rest of developers, other constructs have been developed |
| 17:31.05 | lukfugl | depending on your definition of important and underlying, I'll grant you that |
| 17:31.09 | calvarez | kindof like the way PHP was made for web programmers |
| 17:31.16 | lukfugl | calvarez: shudder |
| 17:31.24 | levi | I don't think C++ is the best possible way to communicate low-level with the hardware, but it's probably the best tool currently widely available for the job. |
| 17:31.33 | calvarez | or Renderman for shader artists |
| 17:31.34 | lukfugl | levi: exactly |
| 17:32.01 | calvarez | levi, there are many things that are not the best possible way, but that are, nevertheless |
| 17:32.02 | levi | I also think that C++ is a pretty good execution of its design goals. |
| 17:32.20 | ^Migs^ | PHP doesn't have to just be for the web |
| 17:32.26 | calvarez | according to my networking teacher, TCP/IP is not appropriate for the Internet, yet things just worked out that way |
| 17:32.29 | ^Migs^ | I use it to run directory-processing scripts |
| 17:32.39 | lukfugl | IMO, PHP should not be for anything, including the web |
| 17:32.45 | calvarez | ^Migs^, sure, and also there are ray tracers written in Lisp or Perl |
| 17:32.48 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, amen |
| 17:32.49 | ^Migs^ | well, your opinion is wrong |
| 17:32.59 | lukfugl | there are few languages I will full out bash. Despite my distaste for Java, it's a decent language. But PHP... |
| 17:33.13 | levi | There are ray tracers written in Lisp that are actually fairly close to the speed of C++ ones. Though C++ ones are indeed still faster. |
| 17:33.33 | calvarez | ^Migs^, guess what: I can run Apache in my Zaurus. And guess what again: that is totally inimportant and irrelevant, just like using PHP for non-web stuff |
| 17:33.43 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: as I said, it's my opinion. I won't claim it's fact (although *I* *think* it is) |
| 17:33.44 | ^Migs^ | uh |
| 17:33.45 | calvarez | unimportant* |
| 17:33.53 | ^Migs^ | actually this script I run in PHP is quite important and quite relevant |
| 17:34.07 | ^Migs^ | so once again, I win and you lose |
| 17:34.09 | calvarez | well, maybe written in some other language will make it even more useful |
| 17:34.22 | calvarez | ^Migs^, good, you're the winner |
| 17:34.28 | ^Migs^ | yes, I am |
| 17:34.31 | ^Migs^ | and don't you forget it |
| 17:34.39 | ^Migs^ | ~whaleslap calvarez |
| 17:34.49 | ibot | ACTION beats calvarez upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 17:35.23 | calvarez | at any rate, C++ is the underlying language of computers, and the fact remains |
| 17:35.31 | ^Migs^ | um |
| 17:35.36 | ^Migs^ | sort of |
| 17:35.39 | calvarez | so, everybody should know it, while not everybody needs to know other languages |
| 17:35.41 | lukfugl | [OPINION] PHP's one power is the built in templating. Outside that, it's subpar in every regard. And that one power is so frequently abused, that I don't know if I'd call it an advantage |
| 17:35.44 | ^Migs^ | C is probably a little closer to holding that title |
| 17:36.11 | ^Migs^ | cite some examples of how it is subpar, lukfugl |
| 17:36.12 | lukfugl | ~agree ^Migs^ |
| 17:36.16 | calvarez | since C can be loosely defined as a subset of C++, I still stand by my statement |
| 17:36.27 | elg | The burden of proof is on ^Migs^ |
| 17:36.27 | ^Migs^ | no, C++ is more an expansion of C |
| 17:36.38 | ^Migs^ | no it's not, elg. I haven't made any claims. |
| 17:36.39 | calvarez | ^Migs^, what was first, the egg or the chicken? |
| 17:36.47 | calvarez | C/C++ can be grouped together |
| 17:36.55 | ^Migs^ | yes, if you want to group them together, that's fine, too |
| 17:37.04 | calvarez | and, I won't argue this: some things are better off done without classes |
| 17:37.07 | ^Migs^ | of course, ASM is even still closer to the "underlying language |
| 17:37.09 | ^Migs^ | " |
| 17:37.15 | ^Migs^ | OMG BLASPHEMY |
| 17:37.18 | lukfugl | ^Migs^: lack of 1) namespaces, 2) proper class mechanics (I'll find a post I wrote on that for you) 3) anonymous functions in any form (aside from evaled text), etc. |
| 17:37.22 | elg | ^Migs^: yes you have. you've claimed php doesn't suck |
| 17:37.29 | calvarez | ^Migs^, no, not really. Since there is no ONE assembly, that statement is flawed |
| 17:37.35 | calvarez | the same is not true of C/C++ ;) |
| 17:37.36 | ^Migs^ | thanks for actually providing examples. Unlike others. |
| 17:37.57 | ^Migs^ | when did I claim PHP doesn't suck? |
| 17:38.04 | calvarez | in other words, any other language is just a shortcut for C++ |
| 17:38.19 | calvarez | kindof like a watered down version |
| 17:38.20 | calvarez | hmm |
| 17:38.25 | ^Migs^ | I simply said I <3 PHP |
| 17:38.27 | calvarez | makes sense |
| 17:38.36 | vontrapp | c++ is a shortcut for assembly and machine language! the compiler taylors it to whatever architecture you're on |
| 17:38.41 | ^Migs^ | I may very well think PHP sucks, yet I still love it. Kind of like how people love their dogs. |
| 17:38.42 | elg | 10:32 |
| 17:38.49 | vontrapp | your precious C++ IS an abstraction |
| 17:38.58 | elg | calvarez: actually you're wrong |
| 17:38.58 | calvarez | yup, but, since there is no ONE assembly, C++ is still the common underlying layer |
| 17:39.06 | ^Migs^ | actually you're all wrong |
| 17:39.10 | elg | every language including C is a front to assembly |
| 17:39.12 | calvarez | or not? (rhetorical question, bgtw) |
| 17:39.18 | calvarez | true |
| 17:39.20 | elg | whichever assembly the hardware talks |
| 17:39.20 | ^Migs^ | I don't know what you mean by no ONE assembly |
| 17:39.28 | levi | assembly language is just a shortcut for the cpu's internal microcode! |
| 17:39.28 | calvarez | yet C++ is common to all of those |
| 17:39.29 | ^Migs^ | I think that's assumed |
| 17:39.47 | elg | Yes, C gives you a memory model similar to raw assembly, but it's optimized into something you wouldn't recognize anyway |
| 17:39.49 | ^Migs^ | it still doesn't invalidate the earlier point that assembly is closer to the internals of the machine, or however you put it |
| 17:39.56 | calvarez | C++ is the only common, underlying language, making it all encompassing |
| 17:40.06 | elg | levi: yes, of course. |
| 17:40.07 | ^Migs^ | um |
| 17:40.12 | calvarez | thus, everybody should know C/C++, but not everybody should know other languages |
| 17:40.22 | ^Migs^ | No. |
| 17:40.30 | vontrapp | calvarez: i could write a ruby interpreter in assembly for each architecture |
| 17:40.35 | ^Migs^ | I, for one, have no need for C/C++. |
| 17:40.42 | elg | no, I dont think everyone should. people dealing with hardware benefit from the memory model |
| 17:40.44 | vontrapp | or even in machine code |
| 17:40.48 | elg | people just writing programs don't need to care |
| 17:40.58 | calvarez | vontrapp, get set! Ready! GO! |
| 17:41.03 | calvarez | you have my blessing |
| 17:41.09 | vontrapp | calvarez: but it doesn't matter, i just want to use ruby, cause it works for me |
| 17:41.11 | levi | Hmm, did that message show up? |
| 17:41.19 | calvarez | until then, C++ is still the common, underlying language of all computers |
| 17:41.27 | vontrapp | just because it uses an interpreter written in C is irrelevent |
| 17:41.31 | elg | levi: which one? |
| 17:41.32 | levi | No one writes anything that is run exactly on the hardware. There is always some level of transformation involved. |
| 17:41.37 | levi | That one. It didn't. |
| 17:41.39 | vontrapp | it's the language i care about, not how it was implemented |
| 17:41.42 | elg | calvarez: C/C++ is not underlying anything |
| 17:41.42 | calvarez | vontrapp, I am not attacking your choice of using Ruby |
| 17:42.10 | calvarez | elg, prove it. |
| 17:42.10 | calvarez | I presented an argument for it |
| 17:42.10 | elg | take a look at any binary on your system |
| 17:42.10 | levi | elg: Actually, C underlies several Scheme implementations. They compile to C as a target language. |
| 17:42.11 | elg | look at it in less |
| 17:42.18 | vontrapp | calvarez: c was just a shortcut to get to the underlying machine code, it doesn't persist |
| 17:42.20 | calvarez | elg, binaries are not common acros platforms |
| 17:42.22 | calvarez | next! |
| 17:42.30 | elg | calvarez: duh |
| 17:42.41 | lukfugl | calvarez: nor is much C code -- ever heard of platform specific includes? |
| 17:42.43 | calvarez | then, C/C++ is the common, underlying language of all platforms |
| 17:42.50 | elg | calvarez: no |
| 17:43.09 | elg | C is *a* very common way to get from the human to the machine code |
| 17:43.21 | calvarez | yup, that's just another feature: you can precondition your development environment for a specific platform |
| 17:43.35 | levi | calvarez: It is available on pretty much all platforms, but that doesn't necessarily make it 'under' everything. |
| 17:43.41 | lukfugl | calvarez: a feature which *many* languages share... no point there |
| 17:43.42 | elg | but it doesn't underlie anything. once you compile it it's not C anymore |
| 17:43.55 | calvarez | it is the most underlying common language |
| 17:43.56 | findlay | is it now D? |
| 17:44.01 | elg | except levi's lisp-to-C compiler. :) |
| 17:44.02 | findlay | or B? |
| 17:44.09 | calvarez | assembly isn't, since not all platforms share the same assembly |
| 17:44.26 | elg | lots of stuff is implemented in C |
| 17:44.29 | ^Migs^ | yes, we get the point that not all platforms share the same assembly |
| 17:44.33 | elg | but it's not under them |
| 17:44.39 | lukfugl | nor do all platforms share the same C, next! |
| 17:44.48 | calvarez | lukfugl, that is not true |
| 17:44.51 | calvarez | next! |
| 17:44.53 | levi | Systems that run Oberon, for example, do not run any code written in C. |
| 17:44.59 | calvarez | good |
| 17:45.03 | ^Migs^ | After C/C++, Visual Basic is the next closest to the underlying machine code |
| 17:45.05 | elg | of course it's true |
| 17:45.10 | levi | It is not common, but it does exist. |
| 17:45.12 | calvarez | now THAT's a counterexample. thanks levi |
| 17:45.17 | elg | there are lots of versions of C |
| 17:45.26 | elg | that aren't compatible with eachother |
| 17:45.35 | vontrapp | -.- |
| 17:45.44 | vontrapp | how is levi's a counterexample? |
| 17:45.49 | calvarez | I'll amend my statement: C/C++ is the most appropriate, common, underlying platform for most systems (at least the relevant ones) |
| 17:45.50 | redbeard1 | atoponce: ping |
| 17:45.58 | vontrapp | lukfugl stated a FACT |
| 17:46.07 | vontrapp | levi did the same thing |
| 17:46.12 | calvarez | vontrapp, not true. It all depends on the compiler |
| 17:46.17 | lukfugl | calvarez: take "appropriate" out and I'll grant your statement |
| 17:46.22 | calvarez | which, btw, is usually written in C/C++ ;) |
| 17:46.24 | calvarez | hahaha |
| 17:46.57 | vontrapp | C++ is not the end-all be-all of computer languages! |
| 17:47.03 | calvarez | lukfugl, "appropriate" is a keyword, if you want portable code that is as underlying as possible, C++ is the only way to go |
| 17:47.09 | lukfugl | I even agree with you in preference that it is the most appropriate, but it's just that, a preference. You can't make "FACT" statements that include a preference |
| 17:47.11 | vontrapp | it happens to be the most ubiquitus |
| 17:47.13 | calvarez | vontrapp, I agree with you |
| 17:47.17 | levi | vontrapp: He's just saying it's the lowest-common-denominator language. ;) |
| 17:47.26 | lukfugl | levi: ;) |
| 17:47.56 | calvarez | vontrapp, C++ is only for essential and extremely relevant things. There has to be shortcuts for other development goals as well. |
| 17:48.09 | vontrapp | yet you say everyone should know it |
| 17:48.12 | calvarez | levi, you got it |
| 17:48.16 | calvarez | lowest common denominator |
| 17:48.19 | *** join/#utah Keighvin (n=ptomlins@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 17:48.39 | calvarez | thus, every serious programmer mist learn C/C++ |
| 17:48.47 | Keighvin | Amen! |
| 17:48.48 | calvarez | s/mist/must/ |
| 17:48.59 | Keighvin | (but not necessarily be stuck there) |
| 17:49.00 | calvarez | unless, of course, you just do little scripts here and there |
| 17:49.05 | calvarez | yea, of course |
| 17:49.16 | calvarez | there is also C# and Python for text processing and GUIs |
| 17:49.17 | lukfugl | calvarez: so if I'm not working on low-level systems hardware-touching code, I'm not a serious programmer? |
| 17:49.25 | calvarez | and Lisp for AI and language processing stuff |
| 17:49.52 | vontrapp | i for one would like to see C/C++ become obsolete in favor of a more thought out, powerful low-level language |
| 17:49.56 | calvarez | lukfugl, serious C/C++ programmers can also do non-low-level stuff |
| 17:49.59 | levi | vontrapp: Amen. |
| 17:50.23 | lukfugl | calvarez: and serious non-C/C++ programmers can also do non-low-level stuff faster and in a more readable abstraction |
| 17:50.24 | calvarez | vontrapp, I have no problem with that. I'll just use C/C++ for serious programming in the meantime |
| 17:50.47 | vontrapp | C was, after all, just a conglomeration of macros and constructs that just evolved randomly |
| 17:51.04 | levi | vontrapp: At some point, I'm going to investigate Ada as an alternative to C++. |
| 17:51.06 | lukfugl | (faster = faster coding, not faster running... let's not start any performance arguments) |
| 17:51.07 | calvarez | lukfugl, of course, you can use VB if you value readability |
| 17:51.20 | lukfugl | calvarez: straw man, next! |
| 17:51.28 | elg | calvarez: I still disagree. |
| 17:51.29 | calvarez | lukfugl, for sake of respect to other languages, yes, let's not talk about performance |
| 17:52.09 | elg | Every seriuos programmer should understand how the computer works. |
| 17:52.09 | calvarez | just one thing: I am highly skeptical of Crysis or UT2k7 written in Lisp or Perl |
| 17:52.10 | calvarez | ...and how to program in C/C++ |
| 17:52.15 | elg | just because his favorite language's compiler or interpreter is written in C doesn't mean he needs to know C |
| 17:52.22 | findlay | yeah |
| 17:52.25 | levi | calvarez: Tim Sweeney wants a new language for writing his stuff, too. |
| 17:52.26 | lukfugl | calvarez: I'm highly skeptical of those things not using specialized hardware -- how is that an argument for C? |
| 17:52.27 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-168-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:52.28 | elg | in fact, if that logic holds, then his favorite language is stuck in C paradigms |
| 17:52.28 | calvarez | of course, not all programming is critical |
| 17:52.41 | Keighvin | lukfugl: Everyone should have exposure to the low level stuff, if only to understand the underpinnings being exploited by the higher level code. |
| 17:53.05 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-168-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:53.07 | calvarez | levi, that's fine. I'm not arguing for C/C++ to be perfect, but rather the most essential tool |
| 17:53.09 | levi | And some Jak and Daxter games were written in a Lisp language that was designed to aid portability between game systems. |
| 17:53.12 | calvarez | as of right now |
| 17:53.16 | findlay | C is the only language you ever need to know |
| 17:53.20 | calvarez | if a better tool comes up, it is welcome |
| 17:53.31 | findlay | all of the other languages are superfluous and needless |
| 17:53.38 | elg | C is NOT the embodiment of how the computer works |
| 17:53.40 | elg | that's the point |
| 17:53.43 | levi | calvarez: Yes, as of right now, I agree it's pretty important to know if you want to do something performance-critical or low-level. |
| 17:53.44 | findlay | hehe |
| 17:53.48 | vontrapp | you don't have to learn C to know how the underlying memory allocations and such work |
| 17:53.49 | levi | s/or/and |
| 17:53.50 | calvarez | but it is the closest one, elg |
| 17:54.03 | calvarez | vontrapp, no, but if you want to use them wisely, yes |
| 17:54.06 | elg | no, not really |
| 17:54.16 | findlay | calvarez: depends on how you define 'computer' |
| 17:54.18 | calvarez | otehrwise, knowing how memory allocations work is unnecessary and irrelevant |
| 17:54.26 | calvarez | findlay, depends on how you define "define" |
| 17:54.37 | calvarez | bye, lukfugl |
| 17:54.37 | findlay | what are you talking about? |
| 17:54.56 | findlay | there's more than one way to define a computer |
| 17:55.02 | calvarez | me? I'm talking about how C/C++ is the most important language to know |
| 17:55.04 | lukfugl | calvarez: oh, I'll still be watching... I just need to stop arguing and go do some serious non-C/C++ work ;) |
| 17:55.16 | vontrapp | _if_ i actually care about and need to worry about low level things like memory allocation then i would probably use C/C++ |
| 17:55.16 | findlay | heh, whatever |
| 17:55.26 | levi | http://www.franz.com/success/customer_apps/animation_graphics/naughtydog.lhtml |
| 17:55.43 | vontrapp | but i don't need to know C to understand why some algorithms may work better than others |
| 17:55.52 | calvarez | vontrapp, again, not all computer work needs to deal with that. There are plenty of shortcuts. |
| 17:56.10 | calvarez | vontrapp, you don't need to know ANY language in that rehards |
| 17:56.15 | calvarez | regard |
| 17:56.18 | lukfugl | calvarez: agreed. I think the main issue remaining is that you classify any computer work that doesn't require C/C++ as non-serious |
| 17:56.20 | calvarez | other than math |
| 17:56.33 | calvarez | I haven't said that |
| 17:56.39 | findlay | calvarez: your argument for C/C++ is coming off like it's just your opinion |
| 17:56.51 | vontrapp | i don't need to know any language in what regards? |
| 17:56.53 | findlay | and you're arguing that it is fact |
| 17:56.55 | calvarez | findlay, an opinion backed up with facts |
| 17:57.03 | calvarez | vontrapp, regarding algorithms |
| 17:57.11 | calvarez | all you need is mathematics for that |
| 17:57.14 | lukfugl | calvarez: 10:48 <@ibot> calvarez meant: thus, every serious programmer must learn C/C++ |
| 17:57.16 | findlay | um, what facts? |
| 17:57.21 | vontrapp | until i want to implement it |
| 17:57.24 | calvarez | until you get to the specifics of a computer implementation |
| 17:57.38 | vontrapp | ok, algorithms wasn't the word i meant to use, i meant "implementations of algorithms" |
| 17:57.38 | findlay | whatever |
| 17:57.40 | calvarez | lukfugl, that is an implication, not an equivalence |
| 17:57.46 | findlay | this is a boring argument anyway |
| 17:57.53 | calvarez | vontrapp, you can implement algorithms in most languages |
| 17:57.58 | vontrapp | exactly! |
| 17:58.08 | emcnabb | therefore, the world is flat |
| 17:58.09 | lukfugl | calvarez: and I contend that you can do serious programming without knowing C/C++. |
| 17:58.09 | vontrapp | and i don't need to know C to know what methods work better |
| 17:58.15 | vontrapp | i just need to understand "the computer" |
| 17:58.32 | calvarez | yet, if you want to take advantage of the hardware better in a general manner, C/C++ is the most efficient (and to a large degree the only) way to go |
| 17:58.33 | elg | calvarez is limited in his computing worldview by his belief that C is the embodiment of "the computer", and wants everyone else to comply too |
| 17:58.49 | calvarez | elg, I am not pushing everybody else to do as I say |
| 17:59.04 | elg | you have a different definition of "must" than I then. |
| 17:59.10 | lukfugl | calvarez: but not all serious programming *requires* "[taking] advantage of the hardware better" |
| 17:59.37 | elg | in fact most good programming has a lot more to do with managing complexity (algorithms) than managing hardware |
| 17:59.42 | calvarez | also, while I have not claimed C to be the "emodiment" of a computer, I said it is the language that lets you interact with the hardware across several platforms in a low level the best |
| 17:59.43 | lukfugl | elg: amen |
| 18:00.00 | elg | the hardware utilization is just a constant factor |
| 18:00.05 | calvarez | I agree |
| 18:00.22 | levi | SML seems to be doing pretty well in the ray tracing department: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbox/benchmark.php?test=raytracer&lang=all&sort=fullcpu |
| 18:00.31 | elg | so why should every programmer need to learn C when so many don't even know what big O is? |
| 18:00.40 | calvarez | once done with the algorithm implementation, the next step for performance is to do it efficiently in C/C++ |
| 18:00.58 | vontrapp | what if it's plenty fast without C? |
| 18:01.00 | jsmith | calvarez: Or hand-rolled assembly |
| 18:01.02 | lukfugl | calvarez: what if performance is already good enough (which it usually is) |
| 18:01.05 | calvarez | elg, that is the difference between a serious programmer and a non-serious programmer |
| 18:01.16 | elg | calvarez: or, you can let someone else implement a language that uses the hardware efficiently and lets you worry about the algorithsm |
| 18:01.18 | lukfugl | calvarez: that's a very myopic definition of serious then |
| 18:01.23 | calvarez | lukfugl, "usually" is a very subjective term. |
| 18:01.27 | findlay | I know I'm in the non-serious camp. I'm always joking around |
| 18:01.36 | lukfugl | calvarez: and so is serious, apparently |
| 18:01.42 | vontrapp | any serious programmer would already know all the concepts and if he never learned C he would be able to pick it up quickly anyway |
| 18:01.51 | lukfugl | vontrapp: amen |
| 18:01.53 | calvarez | vontrapp, ah! I agree |
| 18:02.10 | lukfugl | calvarez: then the serious part doesn't require C |
| 18:02.25 | calvarez | yes it does |
| 18:02.40 | elg | no, it doesn't. there were lots of serious programmers before C even existed |
| 18:02.46 | lukfugl | calvarez: no, vontrapp just said the concepts of serious programming were independent of C, and you agreed |
| 18:02.54 | jsmith | And there are very serious programmers that won't touch C |
| 18:02.56 | atoponce | redbeard1: pong |
| 18:03.01 | calvarez | because my "serious" adjective wasn't coupled to "programming", but rather to "programmer" |
| 18:03.15 | calvarez | jsmith, as long as they know it, that's fine |
| 18:03.22 | vontrapp | whatev |
| 18:03.24 | elg | there are EEs that program embedded systems in assembly that couldn't code their way out of a cardboard box in C |
| 18:03.39 | elg | they're not CS programmers, but they're programmers of stuff that more people use than computers |
| 18:03.42 | elg | and they're serious |
| 18:03.44 | jsmith | calvarez: What if they don't know it?!? Being a serious programmer does *not* mandate knowing C |
| 18:03.49 | calvarez | elg, that's ok too. They don't know multiple-purpose programming for all that matter |
| 18:03.57 | calvarez | jsmith, I differ |
| 18:04.02 | redbeard1 | atoponce: you're a big ubuntu fan, aren't you? |
| 18:04.06 | lukfugl | calvarez: and we all differ with you |
| 18:04.07 | elg | but what they do is much closer to the hardware |
| 18:04.11 | calvarez | if you don't know C/C++ you can't be considered a serious programmer |
| 18:04.14 | elg | and the hardware performance is much more important |
| 18:04.18 | atoponce | redbeard1: yeah |
| 18:04.20 | elg | so why don't they know the essential C? |
| 18:04.31 | lukfugl | there, *that's* the statement we disagree with. Can you present facts behind *that* statement, please? |
| 18:04.32 | atoponce | redbeard1: ubuntero even! :-)ยป |
| 18:04.39 | levi | Can't be considered a serious programmer by calvarez. Which isn't a big concern to a many people. |
| 18:04.44 | jsmith | calvarez: Grown up and get a clue... Just because you think C is all that and a bag of chips, doesn't mean there aren't any other *serious* languages |
| 18:04.51 | levi | s/to a many/to many/ |
| 18:04.56 | redbeard1 | atoponce: can you tell me anything about running ubuntu in japanese? |
| 18:05.13 | elg | i think calvarez should start doing C certification |
| 18:05.16 | emcnabb | ~thrash calvarez |
| 18:05.26 | levi | (you can write a faster raytracer in SML than C++ anyway) |
| 18:05.26 | atoponce | redbeard1: i can tell you i haven't tried. :) why, you know japanese? |
| 18:05.26 | calvarez | my facts are these: if you don't know C/C++, obviously you have never tried efficient yet multiplatform hardware use on first hand. That is enough argument on my part |
| 18:05.34 | elg | sorry, not convinced |
| 18:05.37 | calvarez | knowing things in theory from books isn't the same as doing it |
| 18:05.38 | lukfugl | ditto |
| 18:05.41 | jsmith | Me neither... |
| 18:05.47 | levi | calvarez: elg /does/ no C and C++ though. |
| 18:05.51 | levi | s/no/know |
| 18:05.58 | levi | Man, I'm not doing too well with the typing today. |
| 18:05.58 | calvarez | levi, I don't pass personal evaluations |
| 18:06.04 | lukfugl | so if I don't do hardware-level programming, I'm not a serious programmer. gotcha |
| 18:06.04 | redbeard1 | atoponce: not enough to be fluent, but certainly enough to get myself imprisoned |
| 18:06.14 | calvarez | so no internalizations for appeal to emotion please |
| 18:06.29 | levi | calvarez: So, anyone who disagrees with you then, by definition, doesn't know C/C++. Convenient! |
| 18:06.42 | atoponce | redbeard1: seems to be, although it's been a while since installing, that you can choose your language from the start |
| 18:06.58 | calvarez | programmers who don't know C/C++ have never done multi-platform, hardware-efficient implementation of algorithms. That's not being a serious programmer |
| 18:07.24 | lukfugl | false |
| 18:07.26 | calvarez | they could do non-multi-platform, hardware efficient implementations. They could be engineers |
| 18:07.31 | elg | calvarez: a statement as full of holes as a collande |
| 18:07.33 | elg | r |
| 18:07.40 | Keighvin | calvarez: That's not a mathematical law. I've done those things, and I'm almost never serious. |
| 18:07.45 | calvarez | they could do multi-platform, non-hardware-efficient implementations. They could be mathematicians |
| 18:07.57 | lukfugl | calvarez: just because someone hasn't done your flavor of "multi-platform, |
| 18:07.58 | findlay | yeah, Keighvin is always joking around |
| 18:08.00 | lukfugl | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:08.20 | lukfugl | doesn't mean they haven't done it in general |
| 18:08.21 | calvarez | but neither or the two are serious programmers, since their role isn't even of being a programmer |
| 18:08.28 | lukfugl | (stupid copy-paste including the newline) |
| 18:08.34 | levi | calvarez: So, are you saying these SML raytracing programs are 1) not hardware efficient or 2) not portable? |
| 18:08.44 | calvarez | SML? |
| 18:08.59 | levi | Clearly you didn't follow the link to the raytracing benchmark. |
| 18:09.00 | elg | he doesn't even know what it is, because it doesn't fit his C-centric worldview |
| 18:09.25 | calvarez | first off, I'm not arguing all code should be portable, but rather the programmer's knowledge AND hands-on experience should be portable |
| 18:09.30 | calvarez | so don't misinterpret me |
| 18:09.30 | ^Migs^ | I actually passed the oDesk PHP 5 certification, so I'm feeling pretty awesome |
| 18:09.50 | ^Migs^ | heh |
| 18:09.50 | ^Migs^ | yeah |
| 18:09.52 | levi | Standard ML has compilers that can exceed the performance of some C++ compilers (such as gcc) for numeric-intensive tasks, such as raytracing. |
| 18:09.59 | vontrapp | "YES I'M AWESOME!!" |
| 18:10.05 | vontrapp | -- sb |
| 18:10.07 | lukfugl | vontrapp: lol, just what I was thinking |
| 18:10.14 | elg | fortran is often faster than C for numeric applications |
| 18:10.16 | Keighvin | calvarez: If the portability of the knowledge set is the end goal, it's pretty easy to get that without having to jump through ultra-specific hoops. |
| 18:10.22 | calvarez | levi, I'm done with Perl and Lisp ray tracers. Both academia and industry have come to agreement that sweeping the floor with a toothbrush is just a no-go |
| 18:10.34 | Keighvin | It would seem that the best way to come to that conclusion would be to use many programming languages in many different environments. |
| 18:10.35 | calvarez | so, no, I won't bifurcate my argument in that direction |
| 18:10.36 | levi | calvarez: I'm not talking about Perl and Lisp! |
| 18:10.43 | lukfugl | calvarez: he's talking about SML |
| 18:10.45 | Keighvin | Not just c/c++ in a few different situations. |
| 18:11.05 | calvarez | ok, I'm not familiar with the acronym SML |
| 18:11.11 | calvarez | can someone define it? |
| 18:11.11 | elg | SML is more hardware efficient than C at ray tracing, a serious programming feat, so all serious programmers must know SML |
| 18:11.14 | levi | Standard ML, which I expanded earlier. |
| 18:11.14 | lukfugl | calvarez: he already expanded it for you. Standard ML |
| 18:11.42 | levi | ML originally expanded to Meta-Language, but I don't know if anyone expands it anymore. |
| 18:11.44 | calvarez | ok, so it wasn't the old Lisp ray tracer thing. I'll take a look |
| 18:11.46 | lukfugl | calvarez: FYI, it's a language that's not C |
| 18:11.53 | calvarez | oh, I think I read about it once |
| 18:12.03 | levi | http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbox/benchmark.php?test=raytracer&lang=all&sort=fullcpu |
| 18:12.04 | calvarez | hmm, interesting |
| 18:12.44 | lukfugl | hmm, maybe I will have to logout and stop listening. I can't seem to stay out of the argument and get my non-serious work done |
| 18:12.58 | elg | ML has been around since 1966 |
| 18:13.14 | levi | And a lot of compiler research has been done with it. |
| 18:13.15 | elg | lukfugl: that's your problem, see. it's not serious work |
| 18:13.21 | calvarez | lukfugl, please stop misportraying my statements. I am not talking about serious programming, I'm talking about serious programmers |
| 18:13.31 | lukfugl | elg: at least I get paid for it :) |
| 18:13.37 | elg | C was written in the 70s |
| 18:13.41 | calvarez | I didn't say non-C/C++ code is non-serious |
| 18:13.45 | elg | lukfugl: that's no excuse. :) |
| 18:13.56 | calvarez | I said programmers who don't know C/C++ are not serious |
| 18:14.05 | lukfugl | calvarez: ok, that was a misunderstanding on my part then. I still disagree with your clarified statement, though |
| 18:14.13 | vontrapp | "Eat your C, billy! You want to program big and strong." |
| 18:14.13 | lukfugl | that one -- still disagree |
| 18:14.26 | vontrapp | there are other vegetables |
| 18:14.50 | levi | C++ is generally translated into a functional language before it's optimized by the compiler. So, starting with a functional language doesn't necessarily hurt you. You still need to understand how the compiler and language work together to produce efficient code, but that's necessary with ANY language. C++ takes quite a bit of time to fully understand, too. |
| 18:15.21 | calvarez | levi, you're by far the most sensical person in this argument |
| 18:15.35 | vontrapp | calvarez: and you're the least |
| 18:15.37 | calvarez | I have to say, I like your arguments since you do back them up well |
| 18:15.39 | findlay | and I'm the most nonsensical |
| 18:15.44 | elg | calvarez: almost all serious programmers know C. This is the way the world is. But that does not mean that knowing C is a prereq for being a serious programmer |
| 18:15.48 | vontrapp | findlay: sorry, taken |
| 18:15.52 | calvarez | vontrapp, go learn C/C++ |
| 18:15.52 | findlay | ): |
| 18:16.01 | lukfugl | elg: hit it on the head |
| 18:16.07 | lukfugl | calvarez: he knows it already |
| 18:16.11 | elg | as much as I'd like to philosophise about cause and effect, I'm going to go shower and go pick up my new macbook |
| 18:16.16 | calvarez | then mature |
| 18:16.17 | levi | elg: Woo! |
| 18:16.19 | atoponce | is there anyone here, besides me, that finds calvarez a troll? |
| 18:16.21 | jsmith | elg: New macbook? |
| 18:16.25 | lukfugl | calvarez: pot, kettle, etc. |
| 18:16.25 | calvarez | troll? |
| 18:16.34 | jsmith | atoponce: I'm growing tired of it too |
| 18:16.48 | vontrapp | aye |
| 18:16.48 | lukfugl | atoponce: not a troll, but very opinionated |
| 18:16.51 | elg | a serious troll? |
| 18:16.53 | calvarez | atoponce, jsmith, I just suplicate on my knees that you don't /ignore me!!! |
| 18:17.03 | calvarez | that would be the end of my happiness |
| 18:17.08 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:17.13 | calvarez | heh |
| 18:17.26 | calvarez | maquis: et tu, Brute? |
| 18:17.26 | vontrapp | elg: why for you need a new macbook? |
| 18:17.26 | emcnabb | calvarez: you're on your way to being the next mheath |
| 18:17.32 | calvarez | lol |
| 18:17.36 | vontrapp | do i get gwythaint? |
| 18:17.44 | vontrapp | er, gandalf |
| 18:17.47 | vontrapp | that's the one |
| 18:17.48 | elg | vontrapp: because it's free |
| 18:17.53 | vontrapp | ?? |
| 18:17.54 | calvarez | why are people upset by my comments? |
| 18:18.05 | levi | The memory model of C++ makes it handy for being able to poke about in random places in memory, which is necessary for some things like writing device drivers and operating system kernels, but it can be harmful to optimizations if you don't know precisely what you're doing and have non-standard compiler pragmas and such available. |
| 18:18.05 | findlay | heh |
| 18:18.07 | elg | calvarez: because you present them as fact |
| 18:18.09 | calvarez | I meant to stir a little emotion, but I think people here get offended easily |
| 18:18.16 | calvarez | elg, they ARE facts |
| 18:18.21 | atoponce | maquis: done. |
| 18:18.25 | elg | and we claim they are not |
| 18:18.25 | calvarez | just facts that most people ignore |
| 18:18.40 | lukfugl | calvarez: never offended, just violently disagreeing with your statements |
| 18:18.42 | calvarez | elg, so? it's called "disagreement" |
| 18:18.48 | calvarez | it urts, but it doesn't kill |
| 18:18.56 | calvarez | s/urts/hurts/ |
| 18:19.02 | vontrapp | where's my free macbook? |
| 18:19.10 | elg | calvarez: so we can disagree but only your opinion is fact |
| 18:19.17 | vontrapp | speaking of language-specific ubuntu, i would like to see a cambodian distro |
| 18:19.28 | calvarez | elg, you don't think the same with regards to your opinion? |
| 18:19.56 | elg | facts are things that are proven. concrete. mathematical or scientific |
| 18:20.06 | calvarez | hmm |
| 18:20.13 | emcnabb | e.g. like elg's hair loss |
| 18:20.16 | elg | opinions are things that are hard to prove. i believe my opinions are correct, but I don't believe they are necessarily fact |
| 18:20.18 | calvarez | ouch |
| 18:20.18 | lukfugl | emcnabb: exactly |
| 18:20.23 | elg | -lart emcnabb |
| 18:20.23 | emcnabb | lukfugl: :-) |
| 18:20.34 | emcnabb | brac: here we go again |
| 18:20.40 | lukfugl | -lart brac |
| 18:20.41 | vontrapp | now _THAT_ will make your hair fall out! |
| 18:20.42 | elg | i don't mind if you think your opinions are right |
| 18:21.01 | calvarez | well, why is it wrong if I present them as facts? |
| 18:21.04 | elg | I don't even mind if you think they're fact. but if you tell me your opinion is fact and mine is not, I'm going to object |
| 18:21.14 | lukfugl | brac: that's fine, I was just going to throw that oatmeal out anyways |
| 18:21.23 | elg | and as long as it looks like you might be willing to debate it so that we can both learn a little more about the world and come to new opinions, we willd ebate |
| 18:21.34 | calvarez | elg, I don't deny your right to present your own opinions as facts. I won't antagonize you for that |
| 18:21.35 | lukfugl | calvarez: because you're not substantiating them |
| 18:21.39 | elg | it's fun, informative, etc. but if you're only interested in stating your "facts" then you're a troll and I won't bother |
| 18:21.45 | emcnabb | elg: it's ok to say you're wrong, just admit it |
| 18:21.57 | calvarez | lukfugl, I think I have backed up every statement with an explanation. You may disagree though |
| 18:22.07 | vontrapp | we have disagreed |
| 18:22.10 | elg | calvarez: perhaps that's exactly what I did. I stated that your facts were not facts. you violently disagreed |
| 18:22.10 | calvarez | emcnabb, lol |
| 18:22.13 | vontrapp | let's leave it at that |
| 18:22.16 | lukfugl | calvarez: backing up opinions with more opinions doesn't turn them into facts |
| 18:22.28 | calvarez | elg, so, you stated the fact that my facts were not facts |
| 18:22.39 | calvarez | ergo, you're casting the first stone? |
| 18:22.46 | calvarez | interesting |
| 18:22.58 | maquis | calvarez: actually, he's stating his opinion which states that your opinions are opinions |
| 18:23.01 | vontrapp | well, it's reletively easy to say something is not proven as a fact |
| 18:23.04 | lukfugl | maquis: amen |
| 18:23.07 | vontrapp | until there is proof |
| 18:23.07 | calvarez | maquis, hehe |
| 18:23.09 | maquis | at least that's what i understood |
| 18:23.24 | maquis | it's rather different than stating a fact that someone's facts aren't facts |
| 18:23.27 | vontrapp | ~cookie maquis |
| 18:23.32 | maquis | sweet! |
| 18:23.39 | vontrapp | no, it's a bitter cookie |
| 18:23.41 | maquis | hey... i want the cookie |
| 18:23.47 | lukfugl | -cookie maquis |
| 18:23.52 | vontrapp | that's what's bitter, you don't actually get it |
| 18:23.55 | elg | it started out as an exchange of opinions. your opinion on the necessity of C and my opinion that C is not a necessity. it wouldn't have lasted long, but you insisted your opinion was fact |
| 18:24.16 | lukfugl | ~frog vontrapp |
| 18:24.17 | ibot | ACTION shoves a frog down vontrapp's throat |
| 18:24.20 | calvarez | elg, everyone can consider their opinions to be facts |
| 18:24.21 | elg | ~cookie maquis |
| 18:24.25 | calvarez | you can disagree with them |
| 18:24.26 | vontrapp | ribbit! |
| 18:24.36 | elg | calvarez: every can, sure. that doesn't mean everyone does |
| 18:24.40 | maquis | sadness |
| 18:24.41 | vontrapp | redbeard1: why would japaneze get you arrested? |
| 18:24.42 | elg | or that those that do aren't foolish |
| 18:24.43 | maquis | i wanted a cookie |
| 18:24.46 | calvarez | just because someone says it is a fact doesn't automatically annulate your own opinion or "facts" |
| 18:25.03 | calvarez | whether things are facts indeed, is something that usually escapes the scope of a conversation |
| 18:25.06 | maquis | calvarez: if i say that the sun is green, that doesn't make it a fact |
| 18:25.09 | elg | ~dict fact |
| 18:25.15 | calvarez | a rather difficult problem of epistemology, I should say |
| 18:25.18 | findlay | ~give maquis a cookie |
| 18:25.19 | ibot | ACTION gives maquis a home-baked macadamia nut cookie to cheer him up. |
| 18:25.19 | lukfugl | calvarez: no one can expect not see a backlash when people disagree that their opinions are facts though |
| 18:25.24 | findlay | heh |
| 18:25.27 | maquis | ibot: thanks |
| 18:25.27 | ibot | maquis: sure thing |
| 18:25.39 | graphyx | he just doesn't know you are a girl. |
| 18:25.42 | calvarez | lukfugl, a person can expect disagreement |
| 18:25.42 | elg | ~dict fact 2 |
| 18:25.45 | redbeard1 | vontrapp: they take everything very seriously. it's pretty easy to mess with them... and very easy to inadvertanly offend them. |
| 18:25.50 | elg | ~dict 2 fact |
| 18:26.02 | elg | ~dict 3 fact |
| 18:26.09 | elg | ~dict 4 fact |
| 18:26.19 | elg | ~dict 5 fact |
| 18:26.25 | calvarez | spam |
| 18:26.26 | vontrapp | ~dict troll |
| 18:26.29 | elg | ah, there it is |
| 18:26.33 | emcnabb | ~crapflood |
| 18:26.51 | vontrapp | ~dict 2 troll |
| 18:27.16 | calvarez | you just called be "Scandinavian supernatural creature". That is an ad hominem attack |
| 18:27.22 | calvarez | s/be/me |
| 18:27.27 | calvarez | s/be/me/ |
| 18:27.28 | vontrapp | ~dict 3 troll |
| 18:27.30 | calvarez | lol |
| 18:27.33 | lukfugl | lol |
| 18:27.51 | vontrapp | i guess we're all trolls, singing our rounds |
| 18:28.01 | maquis | alright... trolling's over |
| 18:28.02 | levi | Troll the ancient Yuletide carols! |
| 18:28.10 | vontrapp | farararararararara |
| 18:28.19 | calvarez | ok, next |
| 18:28.26 | calvarez | why PCs are superior to Macs |
| 18:28.29 | calvarez | j/k |
| 18:28.30 | calvarez | ;) |
| 18:28.46 | maquis | calvarez: dont' push luck with a crazy op |
| 18:28.49 | emcnabb | perl sux |
| 18:28.54 | vontrapp | ~craze maquis |
| 18:28.56 | emcnabb | it's not cool |
| 18:28.59 | lukfugl | can we go back to bashing PHP? :) |
| 18:29.05 | emcnabb | c rulz |
| 18:29.06 | Keighvin | ~lart emcnabb |
| 18:29.08 | vontrapp | ooh, me me! |
| 18:29.18 | lukfugl | ~lart vontrapp |
| 18:29.21 | vontrapp | php is the l4merszz |
| 18:29.39 | vontrapp | that nearly doubled my weight! |
| 18:29.47 | lukfugl | ~lart vontrapp |
| 18:29.49 | elg | the power of the krispies |
| 18:29.50 | vontrapp | time to troll on someone |
| 18:29.55 | lukfugl | that's a good one |
| 18:29.55 | calvarez | maquis, if you continue, I will have no alternative other than to ban you for a few hours |
| 18:30.03 | calvarez | :p |
| 18:30.12 | emcnabb | ok, back to reproducing PXE bugs |
| 18:30.13 | vontrapp | ~party |
| 18:30.15 | ibot | Woohoo! Bot on the loose! |
| 18:30.15 | emcnabb | yeehaa |
| 18:30.16 | *** join/#utah calvarez (n=calvarez@r82h185.res.gatech.edu) |
| 18:30.24 | calvarez | j/k ;) |
| 18:30.25 | emcnabb | calvarez: quitter |
| 18:30.29 | lukfugl | aw, parties over :( |
| 18:30.42 | lukfugl | s/parties/party's/ |
| 18:30.47 | calvarez | emcnabb, I guess I played too many MUDs |
| 18:31.39 | calvarez | backstab X; cast fireball X; quit(if X is still standing up) |
| 18:31.51 | lukfugl | heh |
| 18:32.09 | jsmith | emcnabb: PXE bugs? Sounds like more fun than arguing about serious programming |
| 18:32.11 | lukfugl | umm, so what now? politics? |
| 18:32.28 | lukfugl | oh wait. work |
| 18:32.35 | calvarez | lukfugl, nah, that is already over with a positive outcome |
| 18:32.52 | calvarez | k, I better go back to programming |
| 18:33.35 | elg | calvarez: wait, I thought you were on the republican's side. Oh maybe you're talking about hatch winning |
| 18:33.42 | elg | and ignoring the national level |
| 18:34.24 | calvarez | elg, I am not a Republican (I guess I'm nor right-wing enough in economical matters), but I usually tend to agree with Republicans in moral issues |
| 18:34.32 | calvarez | s/nor/not/ |
| 18:34.33 | vontrapp | let's talk about hacking democracy, how our voting system sucks, and why approval voting would rock |
| 18:34.49 | calvarez | vontrapp, not a bad idea |
| 18:35.59 | vontrapp | strange indeed... |
| 18:36.11 | findlay | ~agree |
| 18:36.13 | ibot | ACTION nods his head |
| 18:36.19 | findlay | even ibot concurs |
| 18:36.38 | emcnabb | jsmith: yeah, I don't know which is worse |
| 18:36.44 | calvarez | one condition: the Open Source voting software should be written in C/C++ |
| 18:36.46 | calvarez | ;) |
| 18:37.40 | vontrapp | k, hold off on that voting discussion, i'll be back at 4 |
| 18:38.20 | jsmith | emcnabb: What type of PXE problems? |
| 18:38.28 | graphyx | Can A grade software be writen in C/C++? (no controversy here, just a bad pun.) |
| 18:38.59 | findlay | do you have enough pixies? |
| 18:39.04 | maquis | stupid ipod |
| 18:39.16 | ^Migs^ | actually, the open source voting software should be written in Java so it can instantly be cross-platform |
| 18:39.40 | vontrapp | ruby is cross platform |
| 18:40.41 | emcnabb | jsmith: it's some stuff for RHEL5. When using the kernel and initrd off of the DVD, there are (supposedly) some strange errors that occur |
| 18:40.44 | vontrapp | ack! memory swapping!! |
| 18:40.53 | emcnabb | jsmith: I'm just trying to reproduce it right now |
| 18:41.29 | jsmith | emcnabb: Sounds like fun... I sure wish I had a copy of the RHEL5 beta to play w/ |
| 18:42.13 | ^Migs^ | dangit, every time I pop some popcorn everyone comes over and wants some |
| 18:42.19 | vontrapp | -alrt backstabbing Keighvin |
| 18:42.47 | emcnabb | jsmith: beta 2 is coming out very soon |
| 18:42.52 | emcnabb | it will be available on RHN |
| 18:43.08 | emcnabb | I'll try to remember to let you know |
| 18:43.23 | herlo | emcnabb, can we avoid RHN and get one directly from you? |
| 18:43.25 | herlo | ;) |
| 18:43.52 | Keighvin | vontrapp: Backstabbing? |
| 18:44.06 | vontrapp | i don't want popcorn. |
| 18:44.18 | vontrapp | all i saw was ibot stab someone without warning |
| 18:44.24 | vontrapp | she said you sent her |
| 18:44.48 | emcnabb | herlo: I wish I could :-( |
| 18:44.54 | calvarez | ^Migs^, I want some popcorn |
| 18:45.21 | herlo | thanx anyway emcnabb |
| 18:45.26 | ^Migs^ | oh man, it's good |
| 18:45.28 | calvarez | WAREZ!!! |
| 18:45.28 | ^Migs^ | sux 2 be u |
| 18:45.43 | calvarez | THEY'RE USING THE CHANNEL FOR WAREZ!!! |
| 18:45.46 | herlo | ~whaleslap ^Migs^ |
| 18:45.48 | ibot | ACTION beats ^Migs^ upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 18:46.02 | calvarez | ^Migs^, I have an air popcorn popper, thank you very much |
| 18:46.16 | calvarez | much better that your greasy microwaveable kind |
| 18:46.20 | calvarez | yuck |
| 18:46.47 | calvarez | I WIN PWNZ0RZ |
| 18:47.30 | ^Migs^ | yes, but I have actual POPCORN TYVMKTHXBYE |
| 18:47.53 | ^Migs^ | and what makes you think I'm eating microwaveable popcorn? |
| 18:48.32 | calvarez | ^Migs^, are you? |
| 18:48.37 | ^Migs^ | well, yes, but I never said I was |
| 18:48.45 | Keighvin | Chopped in half - but a hemicorporectomy (or, paracorporectomy for the linguistic fascists) needn't necessarily be from behind. |
| 18:48.52 | calvarez | so, in other words, I was right ;) |
| 18:49.00 | calvarez | that's all I wanted to know |
| 18:49.18 | ^Migs^ | no you weren't |
| 18:49.29 | ^Migs^ | this popcorn is actually surprisingly ungreasy. Undeliciously so. |
| 18:49.46 | calvarez | ewww you like grease |
| 18:49.57 | ^Migs^ | who doesn't? |
| 18:50.03 | calvarez | serious programmers |
| 18:50.08 | calvarez | \haaha |
| 18:50.10 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 18:50.13 | ^Migs^ | ~whalepunt calvarez |
| 18:50.14 | ibot | ACTION looks onward as an everest-sized whale called Victor punts calvarez across Soviet Russia (No... you don't punt whales there) |
| 18:50.16 | levi | Lipids are essential to life! |
| 18:50.22 | *** join/#utah Robdor (n=Robdor@208.187.198.179) |
| 18:50.36 | levi | Not to mention tasty, when used properly. |
| 18:52.05 | redbeard1 | mmm, lipids |
| 18:52.17 | graphyx | cause I love my lips |
| 18:52.20 | graphyx | er.. lipids. |
| 18:52.39 | emcnabb | ugh, gross |
| 18:52.49 | graphyx | I've worm lipstick before. |
| 18:52.55 | emcnabb | worm lipstick? |
| 18:52.59 | emcnabb | grossER! |
| 18:53.02 | graphyx | s/worm/worn/ |
| 18:54.01 | graphyx | why do you think they are called night cwarlers. |
| 18:54.07 | graphyx | crawlers. |
| 18:54.12 | graphyx | That is when the nite life is out. |
| 18:59.45 | elg | C would of course be the worst language for a voting system to be written in |
| 19:03.04 | levi | A voting system would be a good candidate for proof-carrying code. |
| 19:05.01 | elg | -lart maquis |
| 19:05.23 | Keighvin | ~whalenorris maquis |
| 19:05.25 | ibot | ACTION gets a whale with a facial hair issue named Charles to roundhouse whack maquis in the face with his tail |
| 19:05.36 | Keighvin | On account of the lessons, that is. |
| 19:07.43 | graphyx | elg: I would have to agree. If there was one application that a mathematical proof of development would be good it would be for voting. |
| 19:07.55 | elg | no argument here |
| 19:08.04 | elg | but I think you meant to agree with levi |
| 19:08.11 | graphyx | right. |
| 19:08.15 | elg | although I figure you'd agree not using C would be wise too |
| 19:08.16 | graphyx | I agree with you on that. |
| 19:08.37 | levi | Despite being implemented in the MS environment, Spec# looks pretty interesting for a framework to create reliable code. |
| 19:08.42 | graphyx | elg: To be honest I haven't done a lot of programming so I don't have a worthwhile opinion. |
| 19:09.33 | graphyx | And I would want the equipment to check for a signature on the code that was produced. |
| 19:09.44 | levi | You can place constraint annotations on your code, and the compiler verifies that they hold through static analysis. |
| 19:09.51 | findlay | but not my signature, because it's ungainly |
| 19:10.03 | elg | it's difficult to write security bug free code in C |
| 19:10.28 | findlay | does htmltidy not know about self closing XHTML tags? |
| 19:10.37 | levi | elg: Due largely to the same features that make C useful for low-level hardware interface. |
| 19:10.44 | elg | levi: yup |
| 19:10.56 | elg | findlay: self-closing tags? are you smoking something? |
| 19:11.04 | elg | or do you mean like <br /> |
| 19:11.05 | levi | <tag /> |
| 19:11.13 | levi | That's not HTML, it's XHTML. |
| 19:11.16 | findlay | <img src="img.png" alt="img" /> |
| 19:11.20 | findlay | that's a self closing tag |
| 19:11.23 | elg | right |
| 19:11.32 | elg | i've never heard that term, but ok |
| 19:11.39 | levi | You need an xhtmltidy. ;) |
| 19:11.49 | elg | the question is does htmltidy support xhtml |
| 19:11.59 | elg | tidy does |
| 19:12.06 | findlay | same thing |
| 19:12.28 | elg | well I know tidy does pure xml, so yeah. |
| 19:13.38 | findlay | it gave me a bunch of warnings on tags that self closed saying they were not closed |
| 19:13.50 | findlay | I even told it -asxhtml |
| 19:14.03 | elg | did you try -xml? |
| 19:14.45 | findlay | that gives errors like: Error: unexpected </head> in <meta> |
| 19:14.56 | findlay | so it still thinks <meta /> isn't closed |
| 19:15.30 | levi | Can all tags be self-closed, or only some of them? |
| 19:16.11 | findlay | I thought only some could but I don't remember which |
| 19:16.21 | levi | Probably meta isn't one of them. |
| 19:16.22 | elg | they may be nonsensical for html, but syntactically any tag can selfclose |
| 19:16.39 | levi | Hmm. |
| 19:16.42 | elg | xhtml is just xml syntactically |
| 19:16.56 | elg | findlay: you have an odd version of tidy |
| 19:17.06 | findlay | hm, now I tried explicitly closing <meta stuff></meta> but it still said it wasn't closed |
| 19:17.08 | elg | mine didn't complain about self-closed |
| 19:17.14 | findlay | yeah |
| 19:17.16 | levi | I'm not familiar enough with XML DTDs and/or schemas to know exactly what sort of stuff they define about an XML-based language. |
| 19:17.35 | findlay | this is the statement I'm using: tidy -ic -asxhtml -wrap 0 home.html > tidy.html |
| 19:17.43 | elg | line 1 column 1 - Warning: missing <!DOCTYPE> declaration |
| 19:17.44 | elg | line 1 column 7 - Warning: inserting missing 'title' element |
| 19:17.44 | elg | line 1 column 13 - Warning: <meta> lacks "content" attribute |
| 19:17.44 | elg | Info: Document content looks like XHTML 1.0 Transitional |
| 19:17.44 | elg | 3 warnings, 0 errors were found! |
| 19:18.14 | elg | that's with a <meta /> in the head and a <br /> in the body. |
| 19:18.44 | findlay | does it complain about self-closing <img /> tags? |
| 19:19.28 | findlay | apt-get says tidy is the latest version on ubuntu-6.06 |
| 19:20.27 | findlay | 20051018-1 |
| 19:21.10 | elg | line 1 column 45 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute |
| 19:21.11 | elg | line 1 column 45 - Warning: <img> lacks "src" attribute |
| 19:21.16 | elg | that's all it complains about <img /> |
| 19:21.28 | elg | $ tidy -asxhtml foo.html |
| 19:21.38 | elg | $ tidy --version |
| 19:21.38 | elg | HTML Tidy for Linux/x86 released on 1 September 2005 |
| 19:23.53 | elg | well, and it lectures me at the end on how I should use alt tags |
| 19:23.56 | elg | er, attributes |
| 19:24.49 | elg | anyone here dual boot a macbook? |
| 19:25.37 | redbeard1 | why is it when i type "mkdir LS" i end up getting a directory called "ls" (lowercase) instead? |
| 19:25.49 | elg | what filesystem? |
| 19:25.52 | lukfugl|work | redbeard1: what FS? |
| 19:26.06 | redbeard1 | not sure |
| 19:26.17 | lukfugl|work | what OS? |
| 19:26.27 | lukfugl|work | OSX, perhaps? |
| 19:26.27 | redbeard1 | ubuntu, 6.06 i believe |
| 19:26.30 | elg | if a windows fs, because windows is case-preserving unless it's all caps (or all lower) in which case it doesn't care what case you originally used |
| 19:26.38 | elg | osx preserves case |
| 19:26.45 | elg | if you did ls LS, it would work |
| 19:26.48 | redbeard1 | my ubuntu 5.10 box does it right |
| 19:26.50 | elg | er, |
| 19:26.53 | elg | ls ls |
| 19:26.57 | elg | even if it's LS |
| 19:27.01 | elg | although it wouldn't tab-complete |
| 19:27.09 | elg | but it wouldn't make it ls if you called it LS |
| 19:27.24 | elg | if that makes any sense. |
| 19:27.32 | lukfugl|work | elg: yeah, I see that know |
| 19:27.36 | elg | redbeard1: I think you're hallucinating |
| 19:27.44 | lukfugl|work | I knew the former, but hadn't experimented with the latter, yet |
| 19:27.48 | lukfugl|work | just did now though |
| 19:28.04 | redbeard1 | jphall@carolina:/home/media/bak/unwise/p/_g$ mkdir LS |
| 19:28.05 | redbeard1 | jphall@carolina:/home/media/bak/unwise/p/_g$ ls -la |
| 19:28.05 | redbeard1 | total 12437776 |
| 19:28.05 | redbeard1 | drwxr-xr-x 3 jphall jphall 16384 2006-11-14 14:26 . |
| 19:28.05 | redbeard1 | drwxr-xr-x 3 jphall jphall 16384 2006-10-30 08:41 .. |
| 19:28.05 | redbeard1 | drwxr-xr-x 2 jphall jphall 16384 2006-11-14 14:26 ls |
| 19:28.30 | elg | probably fat32, if it's /home/media as a wild guess |
| 19:28.35 | lukfugl|work | mine too |
| 19:29.38 | redbeard1 | /dev/hdd1 1 38913 312568641 83 Linux |
| 19:29.39 | lukfugl|work | but testing on my work machine here (windows) it preserves LS as LS when I make it |
| 19:30.06 | redbeard1 | i don't remember what FS i set up on it tho... i think xfs |
| 19:30.15 | elg | mount |
| 19:30.20 | elg | or grep hdd1 /etc/mtab |
| 19:31.13 | redbeard1 | what the... vfat? that's not right. i'm reasonably certain we set it up as xfs |
| 19:31.19 | redbeard1 | that would explain it tho |
| 19:32.36 | elg | hehe |
| 19:34.22 | redbeard1 | it seems to handle permissions and ownership better than i usually see with vfat tho |
| 19:37.52 | lukfugl|work | hmmm, I'm pondering on filmwatch again... up until now I've always assumed events would be associated with a movie (by IMDb ID). Is that a fine enough grain, though, or do they need to refer somehow to a specific representation of that movie. A MD5 hash of the file, maybe? |
| 19:38.49 | lukfugl|work | because timestamps will probably vary between different encodings/rips of the same movie, won't they? |
| 19:39.39 | lukfugl|work | but how can I make it easy for the general populace to know which "version" of a movie they have, so they can get at the appropriate events available for that movie? |
| 19:58.38 | levi | redbeard1: What's fun is logging into a getty with capslock on. |
| 19:58.53 | redbeard1 | oh man, i hate that |
| 20:01.53 | *** join/#utah scothoser (n=scothose@wifi-177148.aoce.utah.edu) |
| 20:03.21 | findlay | what's a one-liner that would lowercase all letters in a bunch of filenames? |
| 20:05.17 | levi | 'tr [A-Z] [a-z]' will lowercase all letters in a string. |
| 20:05.42 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=mrpull@205.158.184.126) |
| 20:07.03 | findlay | for file in * ; do cp $file $(echo $file | tr [A-Z] [a-z]) ; done |
| 20:07.07 | findlay | that's what I did |
| 20:07.25 | levi | And it worked? |
| 20:07.44 | findlay | yes |
| 20:07.49 | levi | Excellent. |
| 20:08.09 | findlay | heh |
| 20:14.19 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp32.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 20:14.43 | levi | Mmmm, my beautiful gtk emacs with subpixel-antialiased fonts. |
| 20:15.03 | mrpull | levi: but it is still emacs :-P |
| 20:15.16 | levi | mrpull: I love emacs. |
| 20:15.27 | levi | mrpull: vim is pretty nice, too, though. |
| 20:15.31 | findlay | levi: does it still have the ugly 1995 icons and 3d artwork? |
| 20:15.33 | mrpull | i know. it makes sense for you to like it... but I still like to poke fun. |
| 20:15.51 | findlay | that's probably the biggest thing that bugged me about emacs |
| 20:16.26 | levi | findlay: No, it uses standard gtk icons, but I usually have the tool bar turned off. |
| 20:17.59 | levi | My emacs is probably similarly stark, aside from the smooth fonts. :) |
| 20:18.24 | findlay | heh |
| 20:18.57 | mheath | http://slashdot.org/articles/06/11/14/1839259.shtml <--- what good is 100GB in normal ethernet, really? |
| 20:19.58 | mheath | Am I wrong in thinking that normal computer buses (PCI, etc) can't even handle those speeds, anyway, so you'd just have to split up the connection anyway? |
| 20:20.17 | mheath | The whole idea is combing several ethernet channels into one to form one 100GB connection |
| 20:20.28 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 20:20.32 | mheath | whats the point of that when you're just going to have to split up the connection at each end, anyway? |
| 20:20.37 | levi | Yes, you do it to connect networks, not individual PCs. |
| 20:21.14 | levi | This is the same reason a 10/100 switch will often have a gigabit uplink port. |
| 20:21.46 | mheath | Hmmm. |
| 20:22.10 | mheath | Why would one choose this over fibreoptic? Can't fiberoptics obtain higher speeds, anyway? |
| 20:22.19 | levi | mheath: It IS fiberoptic. |
| 20:22.51 | mheath | levi: And a conventional fiberoptic link can't obtain these speeds? |
| 20:22.54 | levi | 'bridging 100-Gbps ethernet over 10 10-Gbps optical WAN links.' |
| 20:23.12 | levi | mheath: What do you mean, 'conventional fiberoptic link'? |
| 20:23.31 | levi | You can't just hook up a light pipe and move data. You have to have a link-level protocol. |
| 20:23.52 | mheath | from what I understand, the article talks about putting together 10 seperate 10 Gbps links and controlling that so it's functionally one pipe. |
| 20:24.03 | levi | Yes, this is a very common thing in networking. |
| 20:24.18 | mheath | Levi: Then whats so special about this? thats what i'm asking, I guess. |
| 20:24.35 | mheath | I was under the impression that speeds like this were already common in fibreoptics. Whats so special about _This_? |
| 20:25.26 | levi | No, I don't believe 100Gb speeds are very common. |
| 20:25.46 | mheath | levi: Well, I shouldn't have worded it that way...I mean, they've been done before, haven't they? |
| 20:25.48 | vontrapp | so it splits the signal into different wavelengths and reorders them at the end, right? |
| 20:25.50 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 20:25.50 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 20:25.57 | vontrapp | so you don't have to cram everything into one wavelenth |
| 20:26.14 | levi | vontrapp: No, it uses different cables, if I read it correctly. |
| 20:26.18 | vontrapp | parallel streaming, if you will |
| 20:26.32 | mheath | vontrapp: how would that work? Different wavelenghts travel at slightly different speeds, I thought |
| 20:26.52 | mheath | With that much data and a long distance, it seems like it would be really difficult to reorder everything when you're using different wavelengths |
| 20:27.00 | vontrapp | This algorithm preserves packet order even as individual flows are striped across multiple wavelengths. |
| 20:27.10 | vontrapp | (quote) |
| 20:27.37 | levi | Huh. Well, perhaps it does run over a single fiber. The Slashdot summary isn't very clear. |
| 20:27.39 | vontrapp | that's why you have to reorder them |
| 20:28.32 | mrpull | do different wavelengths really travel at different speeds? |
| 20:28.53 | graphyx | mrpull: light travels at the speed of light. |
| 20:28.56 | mrpull | I figured they all traveled at the speed of light and just "vibrated" at different frequencies? |
| 20:29.02 | graphyx | different freq doesn't change speed. |
| 20:29.08 | vontrapp | i've wondered myself about an optical network switch which doesn't have to directly process any packets, just uses spectral mirrors or whatever to redirect the flows... |
| 20:29.11 | vontrapp | that would be cool |
| 20:29.38 | vontrapp | in a dispersive medium (glass) wavelength does effect speed |
| 20:29.43 | vontrapp | in a vacuum it does not |
| 20:29.46 | graphyx | mheath: bonding 1 gig links together to form a faster pipe is a common practice. |
| 20:29.54 | graphyx | Perhaps it just hasn't been done with 10G links yet. |
| 20:31.22 | vontrapp | oops, to class again! |
| 20:31.30 | levi | vontrapp: After reading the press release, it is clear that there are 10 separate optical links. |
| 20:33.30 | mheath | graphyx: yeah, thats what I thought. Thats why I'm asking: Whats so special about this that it warrants a big article talking about it like its a brand new idea? |
| 20:35.41 | graphyx | mheath: I think the key is this "100 gigabit/second Ethernet connection that could carry data over a 4000 kilometer fiber network." |
| 20:35.56 | graphyx | That they could bond the links together and process the data at such a fast rate. |
| 20:36.03 | graphyx | The bonding of the links isn't the break through. |
| 20:36.19 | graphyx | It is the ability to do proper ordering of the packets on the bonded links at that speed. |
| 20:36.27 | graphyx | and distance |
| 20:39.24 | nick125 | anyone here know how to get SSH to bind to port 22 on IP x.x.x.x, and, bind to port 21 on IP y.y.y.y? |
| 20:39.27 | nick125 | *sshd |
| 20:42.22 | rsimpkins | nick125: two seperate instances? |
| 20:42.36 | nick125 | rsimpkins: I was hoping to get around that :/ |
| 20:43.17 | rsimpkins | can't ListenAddress do it? |
| 20:43.47 | rsimpkins | The man page says yes. |
| 20:44.05 | rsimpkins | So, that is your answer. Use two ListenAddress lines. |
| 20:44.41 | nick125 | thanks |
| 20:45.17 | levi | Although fiber optic media has a pretty high potential for networking, it's still limited by the endpoint technologies and link-level encoding. |
| 20:46.17 | rsimpkins | I'm still wating for brainwave technology to come out. I'm sure my brain is capable of at least 60bps. |
| 20:48.27 | *** join/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13) |
| 20:53.43 | emcnabb | ~lart people who forget those on the east coast and schedule 3pm PST meetings |
| 20:54.03 | levi | OC-12 fiber links are only 622.08Mbps |
| 20:57.41 | ^Migs^ | that sucks |
| 20:57.56 | findlay | how do I dist-upgrade from a CD? |
| 20:58.25 | findlay | I did apt-cdrom add && apt-get dist-upgrade yet it still wants to get stuff off the internet |
| 21:01.16 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@aml.cs.byu.edu) |
| 21:02.10 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 21:03.08 | Jayce^ | findlay, for ubuntu, you have to have a specific cd version... not the normal one |
| 21:03.39 | findlay | what do you mean? |
| 21:03.50 | findlay | oh |
| 21:04.13 | Jayce^ | something like the 'trasitional' image or something.. the one that you can make your own installers for |
| 21:04.32 | findlay | oh well, I tried |
| 21:07.40 | Jayce^ | yeah, I had the same problem |
| 21:08.45 | goozbach | bad lag from a "borrowed" wi-fi connection-- |
| 21:09.28 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:11.24 | mheath | findlay: use the alternative install CD |
| 21:11.33 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (i=linuxali@gateway/tor/x-5b8282b708914deb) |
| 21:11.35 | mheath | theres a script/program on those to upgrade |
| 21:11.47 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (i=linuxali@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 21:15.31 | *** join/#utah Mystery_Mark (n=none@63.194.187.135) |
| 21:24.22 | *** join/#utah graphy1 (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105) |
| 21:28.48 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=mheath@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 21:35.00 | ^Migs^ | one of my coworkers came by and asked if some computers in my cubicle were mine or "Dennis's". I told him they were mine, and then some guy with him, presumably Dennis, said, "They're YOURS!?!??!?!?! I want them!!!!!!!!!!!" In cases like that, it's best to just calmly ignore distractions and turn around and get back to work. |
| 21:35.09 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 21:38.39 | *** join/#utah elg_ (n=fugalh@dhcp32.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 21:48.47 | graphy1 | ^Migs^: I hate it when people have to invent BS just to be loud and obnoxious. |
| 21:50.21 | ^Migs^ | I couldn't agree more |
| 21:50.21 | ^Migs^ | he even leaned in toward me, so he was right in my face |
| 21:51.00 | ^Migs^ | my coworker next to me is that way, too. He doesn't like silence, so when there's what he perceives as awkward silence, he fills it with meaningless garbage, like "Breakfast is the most important meal of the day!" or "Nothing like a cool refreshing glass of milk!" |
| 21:51.31 | graphy1 | pr <insert your commercial jingle here> |
| 21:51.36 | graphy1 | s/pr/or/ |
| 21:52.23 | findlay | ^Migs^: aren't you in a virtual world anyway like the Trumann show? |
| 21:53.08 | graphyx | heh |
| 22:01.22 | findlay | ~distract ^Migs^ |
| 22:01.23 | ibot | ACTION puts on a brunet wig and saunters past ^Migs^ with a cold beer in her hand. "Hello, sailor! Wanna go for a ride?" |
| 22:16.41 | *** join/#utah Lone_Wanderer (n=chatzill@208-186-98-2.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 22:17.49 | scothoser | I have a quick question everyone. Is there anyone in here that has a CCNA cert, and has experience in training? We need a CCNA instructor for Spring Semester... |
| 22:17.59 | scothoser | That's here at the University of Utah, btw. |
| 22:20.01 | bonez39 | is there a linux printing room? |
| 22:20.09 | bonez39 | I tried #linuxprinting, to no avail |
| 22:22.11 | maquis | bonez39: #cupsys or something like that works |
| 22:22.14 | maquis | good luck, though |
| 22:22.23 | findlay | #cups |
| 22:23.04 | maquis | i went in there with a question, and 24 hours later the only other person who'd spoken was someone i was helping |
| 22:23.04 | Mystery_Mark | scothoser, what kind of experiance would be required for that instructional position? |
| 22:23.11 | maquis | bonez39: what findlay said... |
| 22:28.57 | findlay | anybody know what this means: unable to setrlimit not allowed to raise maximum limit |
| 22:29.10 | findlay | I'm getting that when I start bittorrent-curses |
| 22:29.57 | Mystery_Mark | I would uninstall and reinstall utorrent |
| 22:30.08 | findlay | what's utorrent? |
| 22:30.19 | Mystery_Mark | The best non-java torrent software around |
| 22:30.30 | Mystery_Mark | very fast |
| 22:30.30 | findlay | is it a GUI? |
| 22:30.36 | Mystery_Mark | http://www.utorrent.com/ |
| 22:30.42 | Mystery_Mark | check it out |
| 22:31.00 | herlo | findlay, use BitTornado |
| 22:31.03 | Mystery_Mark | bittorrent has a GUI |
| 22:31.17 | findlay | bittorrent-curses is not a gui |
| 22:31.18 | herlo | yeah, so does BitTornado, but you don't have to use them |
| 22:31.39 | herlo | BitTornado is a bit faster than the original BitTorrent and is written in python |
| 22:31.54 | Tene | findlay: rtorrent is nice, fwiw |
| 22:32.04 | Tene | cli-based |
| 22:32.13 | Tene | s/cli/console/ |
| 22:32.42 | Tene | it's an ncurses gui, but for some reason many people seem to consider that "not a gui" |
| 22:34.04 | findlay | Tene: the not a GUI part that I want is that it can be contained in a screen session. That way the torrent's session isn't dependant on the login session |
| 22:34.19 | Tene | I run rtorrent in screen |
| 22:34.34 | Tene | it's more than powerful/flexible enough for me |
| 22:35.58 | Mystery_Mark | link for rtorrent? |
| 22:36.12 | findlay | Mystery_Mark: http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no/ |
| 22:36.27 | herlo | Tene, ncurses is a TUI |
| 22:36.56 | Tene | herlo: define "graphic" |
| 22:37.06 | Tene | I certainly see pixels. |
| 22:37.16 | Tene | I see stuff only for decoration |
| 22:37.34 | Tene | it's not command-based |
| 22:37.44 | herlo | Tene, considered a Text based User Interface |
| 22:37.59 | herlo | Graphical implies windowing movements and the like |
| 22:38.11 | herlo | but you can mix them if you feel comfortable doing so |
| 22:38.17 | herlo | I won't be offended |
| 22:38.21 | Tene | gaim-text has windowing movements. |
| 22:38.54 | herlo | if you say so |
| 22:38.55 | findlay | elinks has simulated window effects |
| 22:39.05 | Tene | Anyway, I see much more in common between a TUI and a GUI than between a TUI and bash. |
| 22:39.09 | herlo | so does gvim if you want to get technical |
| 22:39.14 | findlay | yes |
| 22:39.18 | herlo | Tene, that's fair |
| 22:40.26 | Tene | so it seems strange to me to have the two main groups be "pictures" and "letters" |
| 22:40.35 | findlay | I guess the only advantage besides the nostalgic one is that console based data uses less network bandwidth |
| 22:41.01 | findlay | and there's no screen equivalent for GUI's |
| 22:41.09 | Tene | vnc, kind of |
| 22:41.26 | findlay | does it keep the session alive when it's not attached? |
| 22:41.35 | macnewbold | findlay: yes, cause there's only one session |
| 22:42.08 | Keighvin | ~lart findlay for never using vnc |
| 22:42.27 | Mystery_Mark | vnc is outdated. |
| 22:43.32 | macnewbold | by what? |
| 22:43.52 | findlay | can vnc play music? |
| 22:43.55 | findlay | there you go |
| 22:44.00 | Tene | can screen? |
| 22:44.10 | findlay | um, well, with mplayer yes |
| 22:44.35 | macnewbold | findlay: then VNC can play music too |
| 22:44.44 | findlay | oh well, I tried |
| 22:45.36 | macnewbold | vnc is handy, but I wouldn't use it if I didn't have to |
| 22:46.16 | Tene | nx is a bit nicer |
| 22:46.26 | findlay | wow, ubuntu has well seeded torrents |
| 22:46.47 | Tene | Ooo, fc6 has ghc-6.6 |
| 22:52.14 | findlay | latest I get is 6.4.2 |
| 22:52.39 | levi | Mmmm, ghc-6.6 |
| 22:52.46 | levi | Haskelly goodness. |
| 22:52.54 | levi | I need to learn Haskell. :) |
| 22:53.18 | Tene | I seem to remember needing something for pugs that wasn't in the default fedora ghc package, though... |
| 22:53.18 | levi | Perhaps next semester I will find an excuse to do so. Or maybe I can do one of my AI projects in it, if I have enough time. |
| 22:53.23 | Tene | guess I'll find out soon enough |
| 22:56.17 | Tene | wow, the battery meter on this laptop is really screwed up |
| 22:58.40 | *** join/#utah reriding (n=bertbob@c-67-166-124-136.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:02.16 | Tene | battery meter just went from 18 hours to 4 minutes |
| 23:05.32 | mrpull | anyone want to argue that Li-Ion batteries need calibration despite not having a memory effect? |
| 23:06.53 | *** part/#utah ^Migs^ (i=Migs@205.122.50.21) |
| 23:11.24 | Tene | went from 4 minutes to fullyy charget to 35 hours to fully charged to 55 minutes |
| 23:13.03 | tensai | ~prod Jayce^ |
| 23:13.14 | ibot | ACTION zaps Jayce^ with a high voltage cattle prod |
| 23:14.20 | Tene | Wow, pugs compiles *much* faster on this system. |
| 23:30.51 | Lone_Wanderer | scothoser - where do I get info? |
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| 23:38.57 | *** part/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13) |
| 23:39.36 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=xbmodder@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 23:43.10 | findlay | ~date Sargun |
| 23:51.59 | *** join/#utah ptomlinson (n=ptomlins@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 23:52.12 | Keighvin | ~lart Jayce^ |
| 23:52.17 | Keighvin | ~lart Jayce^ really hard |
| 23:52.34 | Keighvin | ~shoot Jayce^ |
| 23:52.35 | ibot | ACTION shoots Jayce^ in the foot with a frozen turkey cannon! |
| 23:52.40 | Keighvin | quit MEH! |