irclog2html for #utah on 20061006

`00:01.00`	`*** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net)`
`00:04.49`	`mheath[laptop]`	`~fish maquis`
`00:04.51`	`ibot`	`ACTION slaps maquis around with a large trout`
`00:11.44`	`*** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.161.255)`
`00:25.15`	`*** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@001-789-717.area1.spcsdns.net)`
`00:25.15`	`*** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ`
`00:30.11`	`spr`	`TimRiker, do you need directions for tonight?`
`00:31.24`	`TimRiker`	`nope on my way`
`00:35.09`	`tuxd00d`	`TimRiker: You went to BYU, right?`
`00:35.13`	`tuxd00d`	`for school that is`
`00:35.21`	`TimRiker`	`yep`
`00:36.50`	`TimRiker`	`ugh jam`
`00:38.19`	`mheath[laptop]`	`yah, tomorrow I am going to MAKE MONEY!`
`00:39.57`	`tuxd00d`	`mheath[laptop]: Which I was going to make money tomorrow`
`00:40.03`	`tuxd00d`	`wish`
`00:48.08`	`TimRiker`	`orem`
`00:55.22`	`TimRiker`	`univ mall`
`01:01.04`	`tuxd00d`	`walking from Wilk to crabtree`
`01:01.15`	`TimRiker`	`9thh e`
`01:01.22`	`tuxd00d`	`since we're doing play by plays`
`01:01.52`	`TimRiker`	`heh`
`01:01.52`	`mheath[laptop]`	`Why in the world are they making a movie about Marie Antoinette, on the pretense that she was some tragically misunderstood woman?`
`01:02.08`	`mheath[laptop]`	`She wasn't evil, but she was a rather shallow self-indulgent person`
`01:04.27`	`TimRiker`	`law lib parking lot. headed over...`
`01:16.15`	`*** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.191.179)`
`01:23.04`	`mheath[laptop]`	`haha, I'm totally going to buy a royal title from sealand when I have some money :P`
`01:24.38`	`billfur`	`link?`
`01:25.15`	`mheath[laptop]`	`billfur: http://www.redsave.com/index.asp?pageType=3&pid=2091&catId=21&track=SealandShopLink#`
`01:25.44`	`mheath[laptop]`	`billfur: just incase your aren't aware, its mostly a joke`
`01:25.55`	`mheath[laptop]`	`Sealand isn't a recognized as a country by anyone but themselves, really`
`01:26.20`	`billfur`	`yeah, but arn't they in international waters`
`01:26.29`	`billfur`	`where they are outside of jurisdiction of most laws?`
`01:26.43`	`mheath[laptop]`	`I'm still not sure if the Princes/King/Queen regard the 'royalty' and government structure as a game/joke, or if they're nuts and really believe in it`
`01:27.02`	`mheath[laptop]`	`billfur: technically yes, but that didn't stop them from calling the British coast guard when the thing caught on fire a few months ago =P`
`01:27.12`	`billfur`	`lol`
`01:27.28`	`billfur`	`link?`
`01:27.36`	`mheath[laptop]`	`billfur: www.sealandgov.org`
`01:28.06`	`mheath[laptop]`	`what cracks me up is, theres even a group that fancies itself as a government-in-exile!`
`01:28.30`	`mheath[laptop]`	`The guy who runs it kept getting arrested for money counterfitting, because he kept making Sealand currency and trying to distribute it in germany.`
`01:30.07`	`mheath[laptop]`	`haha, that would be funny....."Lord Michael Heath of Sealand"...stick the Sealand coat of arms on my letterhead, etc. =P`
`01:30.49`	`mheath[laptop]`	`It's pricy, though`
`01:30.53`	`mheath[laptop]`	`like $55`
`01:31.17`	`mheath[laptop]`	`thats just the printed materials...you have to actually register the title with the principality, and I think that site used to say theres a fee...`
`01:37.18`	`*** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@128.187.133.228)`
`01:40.54`	`goozbach`	`NO FREAKING WAY!!!!!`
`01:41.05`	`goozbach`	`straberry chesecake shake!?`
`01:41.23`	`nick125`	`sonic...eek`
`01:41.41`	`nick125`	`not a good one either`
`01:53.15`	`mheath[laptop]`	`goozbach: strawberry cheesecake > strawberry cheesecake shake`
`02:01.29`	`goozbach`	`mheath[laptop]: of course, but chesscake every day is difficult`
`02:01.39`	`goozbach`	`but a shake every day is almost doable`
`02:02.03`	`mheath[laptop]`	`indeed. I like your thinking =P`
`02:02.16`	`mheath[laptop]`	`Going to watch a movie, and I have my first day of work tomorrow!`
`02:02.17`	`emcnabb`	`mheath[laptop]: bye`
`02:03.15`	`goozbach`	`emcnabb: so who do you do support for?`
`02:03.51`	`goozbach`	`I gotta call about a directory services problem tomorrow, are you going to answer?`
`02:05.05`	`emcnabb`	`goozbach: nope`
`02:05.16`	`goozbach`	`dang, I wanted to bother you`
`02:05.18`	`emcnabb`	`I work with some of our partners`
`02:05.39`	`goozbach`	`figured`
`02:06.12`	`emcnabb`	`I'm the support contact for a large processor company, a large 3d graphics company, a large storage systems company, and two networking / telco companies`
`02:06.55`	`emcnabb`	`goozbach: if you want you can bug me, but I won't be much help :-)`
`02:08.59`	`goozbach`	`from now on i'll call you mr-ambigous...`
`02:09.01`	`goozbach`	`:)`
`02:09.12`	`goozbach`	`you're a TAM then`
`02:09.54`	`emcnabb`	`goozbach: yeah`
`02:10.38`	`emcnabb`	`how's your gig down in Florida going?`
`02:10.53`	`goozbach`	`today was rough`
`02:11.03`	`goozbach`	`due to the afore mentioned DS issue`
`02:11.09`	`emcnabb`	`ah`
`02:11.13`	`goozbach`	`and I didn't feel well either`
`02:11.19`	`emcnabb`	`brb... dog needs to poo`
`02:11.25`	`goozbach`	`I blame outlook`
`02:12.48`	`goozbach`	`flsdjsdkfjsjdsd`
`02:13.47`	`emcnabb`	`I'm watching the Florida State / N.C. State game right now`
`02:15.57`	`goozbach`	`me too`
`02:16.08`	`goozbach`	`this is a decent drive, no?`
`02:16.33`	`goozbach`	`it started on the 2" line`
`02:18.24`	`emcnabb`	`impressive, but the wrong team is doing well`
`02:18.48`	`goozbach`	`what do you mean?`
`02:18.54`	`goozbach`	`FSU is doing great`
`02:19.00`	`emcnabb`	`I'm going for NC State :-)`
`02:19.04`	`goozbach`	`TOUCHDOWN and all!`
`02:21.52`	`goozbach`	`and the mets are winning as well`
`02:23.18`	`emcnabb`	`nice run`
`02:24.40`	`mheath[laptop]`	`be back later`
`02:25.49`	`goozbach`	`what happened to the play-by-play?`
`02:25.59`	`goozbach`	`why did mheath leave?`
`02:26.12`	`goozbach`	`he didn't tell us exactly what he was doing...`
`02:26.12`	`emcnabb`	`going to a movie with some hot check`
`02:26.14`	`emcnabb`	`chick`
`02:26.25`	`goozbach`	`ohh`
`02:26.33`	`goozbach`	`so he DID tell us?`
`02:26.34`	`emcnabb`	`22:02 < mheath[laptop]> Going to watch a movie, and I have my first day of work tomorrow!`
`02:26.47`	`goozbach`	`ahh`
`02:26.48`	`goozbach`	`good`
`02:26.52`	`emcnabb`	`I'm just assuming a hot chick is involved`
`02:28.43`	`emcnabb`	`goozbach: so any future Mrs. Carter's in the plans?`
`02:29.07`	`emcnabb`	`oh yeah`
`02:29.11`	`emcnabb`	`touchdown`
`02:29.25`	`goozbach`	`cause if I don't know about mheath's every move I cannot function`
`02:29.36`	`goozbach`	`emcnabb: kinda, no, I don't know`
`02:29.45`	`goozbach`	`still dating that girl`
`02:30.23`	`goozbach`	`don't know what I want to do with that`
`02:30.32`	`emcnabb`	`cool`
`02:30.45`	`emcnabb`	`it's better to wait and make good decisions`
`02:31.07`	`goozbach`	`esp with that`
`02:34.48`	`emcnabb`	`yeah`
`02:36.34`	`goozbach`	`so I want to offer nethack as an easteregg with my new console app.`
`02:36.47`	`goozbach`	`any idea how to disable the shell escape?`
`02:46.17`	`goozbach`	`looks like export SHELL=/dev/null`
`02:48.14`	`goozbach`	`drat!`
`02:48.17`	`emcnabb`	`touchdown!`
`02:54.06`	`emcnabb`	`wow`
`02:54.47`	`billfur`	`for who?`
`02:55.20`	`emcnabb`	`NC State`
`03:10.12`	`*** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net)`
`03:16.50`	`emcnabb`	`goozbach: good night :-)`
`03:17.06`	`maquis`	`-lart sports`
`03:18.04`	`elg`	`-lart emcnabb`
`03:18.13`	`*** join/#utah linuxalien (i=linuxali@gateway/tor/x-7d2ef484c659cfed)`
`03:18.21`	`elg`	`maquis: what sports are on your bad side?`
`03:18.56`	`maquis`	`elg: pretty much anything besides lacrosse, and maybe soccer if i'm in a good mood`
`03:19.05`	`maquis`	`they don't really switch sides, though`
`03:19.12`	`goozbach`	`the mets won`
`03:19.20`	`goozbach`	`so that's good`
`03:23.38`	`elg`	`~meet mets`
`03:23.42`	`ibot`	`hey mets :)`
`03:25.31`	`billfur`	`anyone kjnow how the utes are doing?`
`03:34.32`	`*** join/#utah mheath (n=mheath@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.co.comcast.net)`
`03:34.53`	`mheath`	`Wow. One thing just kind of impressed me about Windows Vista.`
`03:34.56`	`billfur`	`HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA`
`03:35.20`	`maquis`	`mheath: what?`
`03:35.20`	`mheath`	`It's the first operating system I've seen (including linux) that can detect my network attached printer`
`03:35.26`	`mheath`	`*autodetect`
`03:35.38`	`billfur`	`its not the os`
`03:35.40`	`billfur`	`its the new drivers`
`03:35.47`	`billfur`	`there are hp drivers that do that for xp`
`03:36.11`	`mheath`	`billfur: no, I'm talking about autodetecting a network attached HP printer through the Add Printer wizard.`
`03:36.25`	`mheath`	`No additional software or drivers other than the base install of Windows Vista`
`03:36.34`	`billfur`	`sexy`
`03:36.47`	`mheath`	`One thing thats odd....`
`03:36.59`	`mheath`	`They say the reason Vista takes so much more resources is the new graphics sytem`
`03:37.19`	`mheath`	`BUt on mine...even if I switch to the simpler style without the transparency and stuff, its still using the same amount of RAM and the same CPU time`
`03:38.17`	`mheath`	`The thing about Microsoft that annoys me....`
`03:38.22`	`mheath`	`They have some really, really cool ideas.`
`03:38.28`	`mheath`	`Things that are just plain awesome`
`03:38.38`	`billfur`	`like what?`
`03:38.38`	`mheath`	`It's their execution thats the problem, though`
`03:39.03`	`mheath`	`billfur: Like the new security jail in IE`
`03:39.21`	`billfur`	`like, wouldn't it be better to design an browser that didn't have to be run in a security jail`
`03:39.32`	`billfur`	`or better yet design a user system that a IE hole wasn't a OMG ADMIN hole?`
`03:39.53`	`mheath`	`billfur: You're a fool if you think that. Firefox can just as easily have similar problems; Firefox has had plenty of major security problems.`
`03:40.04`	`billfur`	`your right`
`03:40.11`	`billfur`	`but firefox isn't intergrated all over the dang OS`
`03:40.25`	`mheath`	`billfur: Neither is IE7.`
`03:40.30`	`billfur`	`uh.`
`03:40.39`	`billfur`	`your saying they stripped out all the IE stuff out of the system DLLS`
`03:40.48`	`billfur`	`that just about every applicatoin uses/`
`03:41.07`	`mheath`	`billfur: IE6 isn't integrated with Windows XP really either, they just don't give you the option of removing it`
`03:41.16`	`billfur`	`uh`
`03:41.24`	`billfur`	`thats really not true`
`03:41.24`	`mheath`	`Check out LitePC / XPlite. It can remove IE6 no problem, and it doesn't effect the operating system at all.`
`03:41.44`	`billfur`	`theres a difference between IE6`
`03:41.45`	`mheath`	`I've ran XPLite on lots of XP machines with IE6 stripped off and had no problems.`
`03:41.48`	`billfur`	`and the internal controls`
`03:41.53`	`elg`	`but it's fun to pretend`
`03:42.01`	`mheath`	`billfur: It can also strip out the entire MS HTML rendering engine.`
`03:42.04`	`mheath`	`And the javascript engine`
`03:42.10`	`mheath`	`and the internet connection wizard`
`03:42.10`	`billfur`	`and your telling me that doesn't break crap`
`03:42.12`	`mheath`	`and the javascript engine`
`03:42.16`	`mheath`	`billfur: Doesn't break a thing.`
`03:42.36`	`mheath`	`billfur: only thing in the OS that depends on all that is the links in control panel for launching the Web interface to automatic updates`
`03:42.46`	`mheath`	`Oh, and Help and Support center is broken, because its almost entirely HTML pages.`
`03:42.47`	`billfur`	`said by someone who obviously doesn't use any programs that rely on the MS HTML rendering engine`
`03:43.01`	`billfur`	`cough alot of games cough`
`03:43.02`	`mheath`	`billfur: ? What programs rely on the MS HTML rendering engine?`
`03:43.09`	`mheath`	`Hell, dreamweaver runs perfectly.`
`03:43.16`	`billfur`	`star wars galaxies`
`03:43.29`	`billfur`	`alot of things that sony makes`
`03:43.50`	`billfur`	`the point is you can't just go strip out the API NOw`
`03:43.53`	`billfur`	`and expect not to break stuff`
`03:43.54`	`mheath`	`billfur: We were talking about it being integrated in the _OS_.`
`03:43.55`	`billfur`	`its part of the API`
`03:44.00`	`billfur`	`and it has to PERMANENTLY stay part of the OS api now`
`03:44.16`	`mheath`	`billfur: Programs could just as easily rely on an installation of Firefox for their HTML rendering. Does that mean Firefox is integrated into Windows XP?`
`03:44.35`	`billfur`	`last I recalled firefox programs wern't intergrated into system DLL's.`
`03:44.50`	`billfur`	`your confusing the kernel and the operating system`
`03:45.00`	`mheath`	`billfur: Yes, but Firefox dlls reside in the system32 directory when you install it.`
`03:45.11`	`mheath`	`The same is true of IE6, and IE7`
`03:45.21`	`billfur`	`except IE6, 7 are part of the OS specs`
`03:45.30`	`billfur`	`which means that application writers can assume they are there`
`03:45.34`	`billfur`	`if you don't want to break crap, you can't remove them`
`03:46.01`	`billfur`	`give all the theoretical arguments you want, if you remove them, you will break applications`
`03:46.06`	`mheath`	`billfur: Your argument doesn't make any sense. Your logic is saying that something is part of an OS because they say it is, not because it actually is.`
`03:46.12`	`mheath`	`What technical problems does that create?`
`03:46.22`	`billfur`	`you will break star wars galaxies patcher for instance`
`03:46.33`	`mheath`	`You started this discussion on the implication that extensive integration with the OS created technical problems.`
`03:46.47`	`mheath`	`We've now established there is no literal OS integration, just a need for some programs that the API be there.`
`03:47.18`	`billfur`	`except`
`03:47.20`	`billfur`	`the fact you need IE to patch`
`03:47.31`	`mheath`	`No.`
`03:47.39`	`mheath`	`The integrated automatic update tool works without IE.`
`03:47.41`	`mheath`	`You can use that instead.`
`03:48.01`	`billfur`	`not on XP atleast`
`03:48.11`	`mheath`	`billfur: Yes, it does.`
`03:48.15`	`billfur`	`not if you want to control patch scheduling`
`03:48.23`	`billfur`	`there is no option to CHECK FOR UPDATES Now`
`03:48.25`	`billfur`	`you lose functionality`
`03:48.33`	`mheath`	`billfur: Yes, there is.`
`03:48.46`	`mheath`	`Your naivity is showing. You are making comments about something you have never tried.`
`03:48.59`	`billfur`	`ok, tell me how to get windows xp to give me a list of any updates that are on ms right now`
`03:49.07`	`billfur`	`that I haven't installed`
`03:49.12`	`mheath`	`You are speculating about things breaking when IE is removed, despite the fact that you have never tried to remove IE6, nor were you aware of a method to do so until I stated one.`
`03:49.22`	`billfur`	`I've removed it before`
`03:49.27`	`billfur`	`it went horribley wrong and I had to reformat`
`03:50.16`	`mheath`	`<mheath> Check out LitePC / XPlite. It can remove IE6 no problem, and it doesn't effect the operating system at all.`
`03:50.20`	`mheath`	`<billfur> thats really not true`
`03:50.44`	`billfur`	`now your telling me it didn't completely screw over my pc when I installed it?`
`03:50.44`	`mheath`	`billfur: Apparently your experience was entirely different than the 3 computer I've used it on.`
`03:50.58`	`billfur`	`so your saying the software/method doesn't have any bugs`
`03:51.04`	`billfur`	`(I will add that this was with using visual studio)`
`03:52.54`	`mheath`	`billfur: No. I've used several systems with IE6 removed, extensively, and noticed no problems or bugs except for the obvious things (links in the OS to websites; even those worked after I installed firefox....Help and Support Center, like I already mentioned, and parts of Windows Media Player)`
`03:53.29`	`mheath`	`Everything else worked perfectly`
`03:53.36`	`mheath`	`And I continue to use said setup on several computers.`
`03:53.59`	`mheath`	`billfur: Here's a question for you, then.`
`03:54.14`	`billfur`	`I will add this was a long time ago`
`03:54.14`	`mheath`	`Is KDE vastly inferior because it is heavily integrated with Konquerer?`
`03:54.23`	`billfur`	`It is possible they fixed the bugs`
`03:54.28`	`mheath`	`Poeple were outraged when Windows integrated IE into explorer`
`03:54.42`	`mheath`	`But KDE even uses konquerer simply AS it's file manager!`
`03:54.43`	`billfur`	`lol stop comparing a windows manager to an OS`
`03:54.57`	`mheath`	`billfur: Bah, the two are comparable.`
`03:55.04`	`billfur`	`not really`
`03:55.09`	`billfur`	`windows manager is a component of an OS`
`03:55.18`	`mheath`	`KDE and QT provide the same type of API that "Windows" as the concept people refer to it as includes.`
`03:55.29`	`mheath`	`When people say "Windows" they're thinking of the GUI, the things included with it, and the API related to it`
`03:55.34`	`mheath`	`Not the API of the low level kernel`
`03:55.37`	`mheath`	`Or the command line commands`
`03:55.57`	`mheath`	`The most comparable thing on a GNU/Linux system to "Windows" is a Desktop Environment.`
`03:56.14`	`mheath`	`IT handles desktop session management, GUIs, application APIs, hardware management`
`03:56.30`	`billfur`	`I disagree`
`03:56.31`	`mheath`	`billfur: Whats your answer though?`
`03:56.39`	`billfur`	`on linux I can use different desktop enviroments`
`03:56.48`	`billfur`	`I can't on windows (not counting hackish buggy things like windows blinds/etc)`
`03:57.14`	`mheath`	`billfur: Yes, Desktop Environments are interchangeable. That doesn't mean that the idea of a Desktop Environment is any less the most comparable thing to the concept of "Windows".`
`03:57.22`	`billfur`	`I disagree`
`03:57.55`	`mheath`	`billfur: Windows is always going to come out inferior in preformance if you're comparing it to a 4MB Linux kernel running BASH.`
`03:58.08`	`billfur`	`who was talkinga bout perforamcne`
`03:58.10`	`mheath`	`ITs an unfair comparison to compare the Windows OPerating System to a minimal command line GNU/Linux system`
`03:58.35`	`billfur`	`this is a stupid conversation`
`03:58.37`	`billfur`	`we'll agree to disagree`
`03:58.42`	`mheath`	`billfur: Well, lets put it this way`
`03:59.02`	`mheath`	`If you're running KDE, Konquerer is heavily integrated with everything that is using the vast majority of the RAM on your computer.`
`03:59.16`	`billfur`	`yeah, but I can run KDE AND gnome at the same time`
`03:59.18`	`mheath`	`It is integrated with the API providing the GUI for your programs (assuming their QT)`
`03:59.18`	`billfur`	`thats not the case on windows`
`03:59.45`	`billfur`	`well KDE (non wm stuff) with Gnome (everything)`
`03:59.46`	`billfur`	`or vise versa`
`04:00.01`	`mheath`	`billfur: Well, what makes Konquerer's heavy integration with _almost_ (excluding the kernel and X.org itself) everything on your computer less acceptable than IE's intergration with the OS?`
`04:00.19`	`mheath`	`erm, more acceptable*`
`04:00.27`	`billfur`	`on linux I can still download updates with things other then konquerer`
`04:00.44`	`mheath`	`billfur: yes, just as there are 3rd party update tools and an included GUI update client for Windows.`
`04:00.44`	`billfur`	`If I'm on ubuntu I could use any webbrowser, or apt-get, aptitude, links, getfile, etc`
`04:00.58`	`billfur`	`yeah, if your willing to accept using 3rd party stuff as secure`
`04:01.05`	`mheath`	`billfur: all updates are also released as stand alone .msi or .exe in Windows, too`
`04:01.18`	`billfur`	`its awful hard to download all the patches as exe or msi`
`04:01.36`	`mheath`	`billfur: Well, Gentoo Portage uses Python`
`04:01.44`	`mheath`	`Gentoo Portage is the only official update mechanism`
`04:01.49`	`mheath`	`Say I don't like Python for some reason`
`04:01.57`	`maquis`	`gentoo portage should've stuck with just using makefiles like freebsd ports`
`04:02.01`	`billfur`	`you can still download the debs`
`04:02.03`	`billfur`	`and manually install the`
`04:02.05`	`billfur`	`them`
`04:02.13`	`billfur`	`or whatever gentoo uses`
`04:02.33`	`mheath`	`billfur: just as you can download the .exe's or .msi's from microsoft.`
`04:02.36`	`maquis`	`billfur: you mean download the tarball of the source code?`
`04:02.37`	`billfur`	`or I could rewrite the patch system in another language`
`04:03.06`	`maquis`	`btw, it is possible to emerge -C python on a gentoo system...`
`04:03.07`	`mheath`	`billfur: just as you could write a program using the Windows API to fine tune control of the included update API, or recreate an equivelent API yourself.`
`04:04.07`	`mheath`	`It cracks me up. I hear Linux users that will complain about how much Window's registry sucks...`
`04:04.15`	`mheath`	`then they'll turn around and use Gnome with its heavy gconf integration`
`04:04.36`	`maquis`	`mheath: then you should deal with me more`
`04:05.01`	`maquis`	`i avoid using any gnome/kde software, and get annoyed when there aren't good software outside of those`
`04:05.05`	`mheath`	`billfur: By the way, it's entirely possible to use Microsoft download site if you use a third party plugin for firefox that allows you to run MS browser activeX controls :)`
`04:05.12`	`mheath`	`*Microsofts update site`
`04:05.31`	`billfur`	`I don't like gconf either tbh`
`04:05.58`	`maquis`	`mheath: am i allowed to complain about how much the windows registry sucks?`
`04:06.04`	`mheath`	`maquis: Yes :)`
`04:06.08`	`maquis`	`sweet!`
`04:06.17`	`billfur`	`imo the registry sucks because theres no enforcement of removal of cruft`
`04:06.35`	`mheath`	`O.o How would a registry remove cruft?`
`04:06.47`	`mheath`	`How would it know what IS cruft?`
`04:06.54`	`billfur`	`on uninstalls`
`04:07.00`	`billfur`	`keep track of all registry entries a program made`
`04:07.14`	`billfur`	`aka move the responsibility to the OS from the user`
`04:07.36`	`mheath`	`billfur: Yes, but like Linux with all its package manager choices, there are many choices of installers for Windows`
`04:07.48`	`mheath`	`Good ones like UninstallShield DO keep track of all registry values it creates`
`04:07.52`	`billfur`	`uh, I think I was complaining that it was not mandatory that you remove crap you put in`
`04:07.54`	`mheath`	`And give you the option of removing them ALL`
`04:08.01`	`maquis`	`the registry sucks because it's not plain-text`
`04:08.08`	`billfur`	`theres nothing wrong with binary form`
`04:08.35`	`maquis`	`billfur: yes, there is, if you prefer doing configuration via text files, and you like to know what is stored where`
`04:08.51`	`billfur`	`well, use a documented binary format`
`04:08.53`	`maquis`	`the cruft issue wouldn't be a problem if it was plain text... you could go in and just remove the parts you don't want easily`
`04:08.55`	`mheath`	`billfur: Your complaining about MS....The "Microsoft Installer" (.msi) also keeps track of all registry values created and removes them all`
`04:09.03`	`maquis`	`billfur: that still makes it difficult`
`04:09.11`	`mheath`	`It's the only official microsoft software install tool, and seems to satisfy your requirement perfectly`
`04:09.28`	`billfur`	`You can make registry entries during the course of normal execution`
`04:09.35`	`billfur`	`those would not be required to be known about by the installer`
`04:09.38`	`billfur`	`and therefore may not be removed`
`04:10.04`	`maquis`	`billfur is fur bill's OS`
`04:10.23`	`billfur`	`wha?`
`04:10.26`	`mheath`	`billfur: Yes, The official installer API supports all this!`
`04:10.36`	`billfur`	`but it is not guarenteed`
`04:10.38`	`billfur`	`it SUPPORTS it`
`04:10.44`	`billfur`	`as long as you don't screw up and forget to tell it about an option you might make`
`04:11.40`	`maquis`	`billfur: i don't understand the point of your rant`
`04:11.42`	`mheath`	`billfur: Your invisioning a magic API. A registry that magically knows when changes being made are an application being installed, and can magically tell, for sure and in every situation, that the program is being removed so it can for sure remove all those registry values.`
`04:11.59`	`billfur`	`I don't see that as that hard`
`04:12.12`	`billfur`	`I'll rephrase that, I could write down an implementation right now, its not that hard`
`04:12.22`	`maquis`	`billfur: go for it...`
`04:12.40`	`maquis`	`in the mean time, i'll keep my plain-text configs`
`04:12.43`	`billfur`	`=p`
`04:13.01`	`mheath`	`billfur: OK, so it doesn't rely on working uninstallers, then? It just KNOWS when and which keys to delete?`
`04:13.10`	`billfur`	`yeah`
`04:13.20`	`mheath`	`What if I "del C:\Program Files\program" ?`
`04:13.53`	`mheath`	`How does it know to delete program's registry keys?`
`04:14.00`	`billfur`	`well, I'll rephrase, it could be made to work for that case, but the best case would be an uninstaller that says "I'm uninstalling program x"`
`04:14.08`	`billfur`	`and then the registry deletes the stuff assosiated with program X`
`04:14.12`	`billfur`	`much less room for error then current methods`
`04:14.37`	`mheath`	`billfur: yes, and the only officially supported installer/uninstall in Microsoft DOES that!`
`04:14.53`	`mheath`	`billfur: third party crap doesn't always, just as del C:\Program Files\program doesn't`
`04:14.53`	`maquis`	`billfur: so, you're going to assume that everybody A) uses the uninstaller when removing a program, and B) that all the software comes with a supported uninstaller`
`04:15.23`	`billfur`	`mheath, so the registry keeps track of which program made every single change as it is right now?`
`04:15.28`	`billfur`	`I don't recall hearing about that`
`04:15.40`	`mheath`	`billfur: no, the installer keeps track of that.`
`04:15.48`	`mheath`	`How can the registry keep track of it?`
`04:15.48`	`billfur`	`what if you have a bad program`
`04:15.54`	`billfur`	`that changes the registry`
`04:15.58`	`billfur`	`and the installer doesn't know`
`04:16.01`	`billfur`	`thats where alot of bugs come from`
`04:16.02`	`mheath`	`A big program may have dozens of libraries that can make changes!`
`04:16.06`	`mheath`	`a few different executables!`
`04:16.08`	`billfur`	`and?`
`04:16.15`	`maquis`	`billfur: if your uninstaller is always going to keep track of everything that every program does, then you've got some problems`
`04:16.20`	`billfur`	`no, the OS is`
`04:16.33`	`maquis`	`ok... but that's a ton of overhead`
`04:16.51`	`billfur`	`not really`
`04:17.01`	`billfur`	`it doubles the work maybe of each registry access`
`04:17.19`	`mheath`	`billfur: how does it tell that C:\Program Files\Program\runtime.exe, C:\Program Files\Program\helper-thread.exe, C:\Program Files\Program\libs\lib1.dll, C:\Program Files\Program\libs\lib2.dll, C:\Program Files\Program-extension\libs\extension.dll are all part of the same program?`
`04:17.54`	`billfur`	`um, thats not hard. Dll's run in the same process space`
`04:18.06`	`maquis`	`billfur: here's a question for you: what does a registry provide that text-based configs don't?`
`04:18.06`	`billfur`	`so the dll case is easy`
`04:18.12`	`mheath`	`billfur: What about the .exe?`
`04:18.22`	`billfur`	`so you have the uninstaller say removing these two programs`
`04:18.24`	`billfur`	`still not a big issue`
`04:18.54`	`mheath`	`billfur: This is starting to be a big registry.`
`04:19.02`	`billfur`	`yeah`
`04:19.10`	`billfur`	`but most of it is irrelevant except for installing/uninstalling`
`04:19.19`	`mheath`	`And its tied to the filesystem now, rather than being an entirely abstract place to save settings.`
`04:19.45`	`mheath`	`The MS registry API is entirely abstract`
`04:19.48`	`billfur`	`lol the real registry is quite tied to the file system`
`04:19.51`	`billfur`	`for all pratical purposes`
`04:20.00`	`mheath`	`billfur: Not at all.`
`04:20.02`	`mheath`	`billfur: how so?`
`04:20.17`	`billfur`	`mheath, because most program entries use absolute path names`
`04:20.33`	`billfur`	`also, I think the question is, do we care that it loses some abstraction`
`04:20.38`	`mheath`	`billfur: Those are key _values_. Text, that happens to be a pathname.`
`04:20.47`	`*** part/#utah linuxalien (i=linuxali@gateway/tor/x-7d2ef484c659cfed)`
`04:20.48`	`billfur`	`oh, sure I agree`
`04:20.49`	`mheath`	`billfur: your talking about meta info for EVERY key that literally represents a program.`
`04:21.14`	`mheath`	`THIS key was edited by C:\....`
`04:21.18`	`maquis`	`~lart billfur for ignoring maquis' question`
`04:21.31`	`billfur`	`oh, theoretically speed`
`04:22.02`	`mheath`	`billfur: You're already almost doubling the size of your registry for the cause of keeping it a bit cleaner..`
`04:22.30`	`billfur`	`yeah, but the part that is used for keeping it cleaner isn't the same part that stores keys`
`04:22.37`	`billfur`	`so performance shouldn't be effected much`
`04:22.40`	`mheath`	`billfur: keeping it cleaner? Whats the point?`
`04:22.53`	`mheath`	`Who really CARES if theres an erroneous registry key there taking up space?`
`04:23.01`	`billfur`	`how many bugs exist because of some erronous registry key?`
`04:23.07`	`mheath`	`One entirely erroneous registry key taking up space is better than doubling the size of your registry.`
`04:23.10`	`billfur`	`with file extensions etc`
`04:23.47`	`mheath`	`billfur: OK, how do you handle upgrades then?`
`04:23.55`	`billfur`	`upgrades?`
`04:23.56`	`billfur`	`to what?`
`04:23.58`	`mheath`	`Say you upgrade our theoretical program, 'program'`
`04:24.06`	`mheath`	`its going to leave behind some old keys, stuff that isn't needed anymore`
`04:24.25`	`mheath`	`the existince of these keys can create problems or cause other programs to think that an earlier version of 'program' is still installed`
`04:24.39`	`billfur`	`hm, we could give every program a unique 256 bit id.`
`04:24.52`	`mheath`	`The .exe or .dll that created the program is still there`
`04:24.55`	`mheath`	`It might even be unchanged`
`04:25.05`	`mheath`	`maybe just a couple of libraries were changed in the upgrade`
`04:25.19`	`mheath`	`Or, heck, a lot of programs use wrapper .exe's`
`04:25.40`	`mheath`	`The registry would detect that launch.exe is the app making the registry change when in reality its lib1-newversion.dll`
`04:26.39`	`billfur`	`granted there may be a few kinks to work out =p`
`04:26.44`	`billfur`	`I'm not convinced thats an issue`
`04:26.46`	`billfur`	`that specific one`
`04:26.58`	`mheath`	`billfur: but its a theoretical issue`
`04:27.15`	`mheath`	`And your entire concept isn't really there to fix any really dominately existant _problems_`
`04:27.16`	`billfur`	`yeah, but for it to be an issue, you'd then have to revert back to the oldv ersion`
`04:27.24`	`mheath`	`Its there to solve every theoretical problem, the way you made it sound`
`04:27.46`	`billfur`	`well, ok, I think that something should atleast be done in the parts of the registry where you register file extensions and what not`
`04:27.54`	`billfur`	`those things get to be messes rapidly`
`04:28.04`	`mheath`	`billfur: no. Like I said, old registry keys can cause problems (you seem convinced that erroneous keys can somehow magically cause problems), or it can cause other programs to think the older version is still there`
`04:28.26`	`mheath`	`billfur: and you can edit those yourself, no problem.`
`04:28.41`	`billfur`	`yeah you have to find them first`
`04:28.53`	`mheath`	`billfur: there all in a central location in the registry. Don't play dumb.`
`04:28.58`	`mheath`	`You notice a problem, you fix it.`
`04:29.08`	`billfur`	`well, I mean you have to track down the casue of the problem`
`04:29.39`	`mheath`	`billfur: And what situtation would arrise where its trying to launch a program that doesn't exist to open .filetype, and it can't find the program?`
`04:29.49`	`mheath`	`Windows will pop up with an error box saying program.exe can't be found`
`04:31.27`	`mheath`	`billfur: you remind me of this friend I had....'lattera' on IRC. The guy was absolutely convinced that FreeBSD was the BEST thing in the world, and if you dare tried to SUGGEST that linux did something better, he'd take it for granted that FreeBSD MUST do it better`
`04:31.48`	`billfur`	`I never said that`
`04:31.56`	`mheath`	`billfur: your the same way with Linux and OSS vs Windows. Someone said one thing positive about Windows? OMG, they MUST be wrong. I'm not sure how to argue that...but...they must be wrong!`
`04:32.12`	`mheath`	`That's how you come accros.`
`04:32.25`	`billfur`	`If you said the right things about windows`
`04:32.34`	`billfur`	`like, windows is a heck of alot easier to admin for a novice`
`04:32.36`	`mheath`	`billfur: I said that a jail for IE7 was neat.`
`04:32.54`	`mheath`	`And you rebuked that with something completely unrelated to the jail: that IE7's integration with the OS was bad`
`04:33.15`	`billfur`	`I said I wasn't convinced that in a user based model that a Jail should be nessesary`
`04:33.52`	`billfur`	`it may be neat`
`04:34.00`	`mheath`	`billfur: yes, I replied that the same is a good idea in Firefox because it has just as many security problems (albeit their fixed faster, usually)`
`04:34.02`	`billfur`	`but also as a pratical matter your going to have to be able to get out of the jail to do things`
`04:34.15`	`billfur`	`so I don't see how its going to help`
`04:34.15`	`mheath`	`After which is when you brought up the thing about OS integration`
`04:34.36`	`mheath`	`It just strikes me as kind of being "Well...well......IT STILL SUCKS! So HAH!"`
`04:34.50`	`*** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)`
`04:34.56`	`mheath`	`Change arguments completely to try to make it sound like you're winning.`
`04:35.36`	`billfur`	`well, my point was, if it wasn't so intergrated into the OS`
`04:35.40`	`billfur`	`A Jail might not be nessesary`
`04:35.56`	`billfur`	`Unless you want to say a jail should be nessesary for any program running as a non-super user`
`04:36.00`	`billfur`	`which is a large step imo`
`04:36.09`	`mheath`	`billfur: On the contrary, if something is so integrated into the OS as you say it wouldn't be POSSIBLE to do a jail.`
`04:36.31`	`mheath`	`If everything is insanely integrated into every component of the OS, like you imply, you can't jail it and not jail the entire OS (in which case the jail is kind of stupid anyway)`
`04:37.25`	`billfur`	`er, point conceded`
`04:37.38`	`billfur`	`rather, if windows used a proper user based security model, a jail shouldn't be nessesary`
`04:38.07`	`mheath`	`billfur: heh, have you SEEN the security model in Vista?`
`04:38.10`	`mheath`	`It's VERY user based.`
`04:38.42`	`mheath`	`And it even makes sure that random applications running as a user can't make weird changes to the OS without the actual user knowing about it`
`04:39.06`	`mheath`	`billfur: I should say, the security model is very user based. Its not user based in the traditional UNIX sense of the word anymore than Windows XP is.`
`04:39.27`	`billfur`	`hm, ok, they wouldn't need a jail if people could program better?`
`04:39.41`	`billfur`	`because then people wouldn't be used to running as admin`
`04:39.42`	`billfur`	`happy?`
`04:39.53`	`mheath`	`billfur: then the same is true of firefox :)`
`04:40.39`	`billfur`	`er, crap`
`04:43.57`	`mheath`	`billfur: The way I see it, improvements in the framework of the OS will eventually lead to improvements in the components.`
`04:55.13`	`*** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)`
`04:56.59`	`*** join/#utah Sargun (n=xbmodder@atarack/staff/xbmodder)`
`04:57.05`	`Sargun`	`how do you turn off broadcast with ifconfig?`
`05:07.55`	`tensai`	`turn off broadcast?`
`05:08.31`	`findlay`	`# ifconfig --turn-off-the-broadcast=yes`
`05:11.22`	`tensai`	`without ethernet broadcast your network will grind to a halt. ARP depends on broadcast, and IP on ARP.`
`05:12.12`	`mheath`	`......`
`05:12.13`	`Sargun`	`turn off ARP`
`05:12.17`	`Sargun`	`I don't care :-P`
`05:12.30`	`nick125`	`tensai: I told him that`
`05:13.03`	`tensai`	`yeah, turn of ARP... that'll be a good idea. it'll keep you out of here I guess. yeah, go ahead.`
`05:13.14`	`mheath`	`.....I'm not even elligible to see a freakin VA doctor because they don't have the money to see someone with a such a 'low priority'`
`05:13.39`	`mheath`	`Yet I hear some guy in an IRC channel boasting about how the VA hooked him up with free copies of MS office for education purposes`
`05:13.55`	`mheath`	`$500 software.`
`05:14.21`	`tensai`	`sounds to me like he got the worst end of that deal. ms office... shudder`
`05:14.26`	`mheath`	`Because of a stupid paperwork pushing gunny's error on my paperwork, I wasn't even elligible for 120 days transitional health insurance that everyone is supposed to be elligible for`
`05:14.52`	`Sargun`	`bye bye arp`
`05:14.55`	`mheath`	`Meaning I came back from boot camp, and STILL don't have medical insurance, despite having some major health concerns.`
`05:15.03`	`*** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.128.38)`
`05:15.14`	`Sargun`	`HAHAH! It works! Who said it wouldn't work? Who was wrong?`
`05:15.29`	`mheath`	`tensai: Wasted money! Stuff that could have been spent improving the capacity of the VA hospitals so I could afford to see a doctor without having to ask my dad to dip into his retirement savings!`
`05:15.42`	`tensai`	`Sargun: the only way you can avoid using ARP is to hard code all the ethernet addresses in /etc/ethers.`
`05:15.59`	`Sargun`	`I think my switch holds`
`05:16.32`	`mheath`	`~lart The US Government`
`05:16.52`	`mheath`	`I don't care if I said it x number of seconds ago, ibot. Do it anyway.`
`05:17.00`	`Sargun`	`lol`
`05:17.04`	`mheath`	`~lart The US Government`
`05:17.11`	`mheath`	`GAH`
`05:17.19`	`findlay`	`~GAH`
`05:17.28`	`ibot`	`hmm... gah is one of the top favourite words`
`05:17.35`	`mheath`	`You have no idea how much this tears me to pieces inside!`
`05:17.50`	`mheath`	`Guess what? My old platoon at basic will be waking up and living the msot intense life in existence`
`05:17.59`	`mheath`	`There only a few weeks away from graduating, from becoming United States Marines!`
`05:18.23`	`mheath`	`And guess what? My old platoon was going to graduate on the freakin Marine Corps Birthday. You couldn't ask for a better graduation date.`
`05:18.35`	`mheath`	`What am I doing tomorrow?`
`05:18.44`	`mheath`	`I am working as a host at an Applebees restraunt.`
`05:19.22`	`mheath`	`I AM SUCH A LAZY, PIECE OF CRAP. If I hadn't been such a whiny piece of crap, and just sucked up the pain for a bit, I'd be becoming a United States Marine, in a matter of weeks.`
`05:19.44`	`mheath`	`Instead I find out I have some genetic disease with disqualifies me from any military service for the rest of my life.`
`05:19.59`	`mheath`	`And its just my luck I found out about it at the age of 17`
`05:20.28`	`mheath`	`Looking at the symptoms, my dad probably has it too, but he didn't know about it! He had a succesful 30 year career in the Air Force! He enjoys all the things he wanted to`
`05:20.41`	`mheath`	`Me? I can't even do intense exercise or things that are hard on the joints. For the rest of my life.`
`05:20.51`	`Sargun`	`ok`
`05:21.12`	`Sargun`	`Sorry, at least you found out about the disease when it was still treatable`
`05:21.17`	`mheath`	`People come up to me and say "Oh, I'm sorry you got discharged, I know how much military service meant to you."`
`05:21.23`	`Sargun`	`oh`
`05:21.29`	`Sargun`	`Then I'm not sorrry?`
`05:21.36`	`mheath`	`BULLCRAP YOU DO.`
`05:21.45`	`mheath`	`No one can even begin to imagine what I went through getting home`
`05:21.48`	`mheath`	`Or what this meant to me`
`05:21.56`	`Sargun`	`um`
`05:21.58`	`Sargun`	`the world`
`05:22.02`	`tensai`	`mheath: welcome to life. bad stuff happens.`
`05:22.08`	`Sargun`	`you always used to rave about it on IRC`
`05:22.31`	`mheath`	`tensai: not like this....christ.`
`05:22.43`	`mheath`	`When I was in the Marine Corps...it was tough, and it was intense, on a level you can't even imagine....`
`05:22.50`	`Sargun`	`um, yeah it does`
`05:23.00`	`mheath`	`but when you woke up in the morning, you knew you were doing SO much more than ever other person on this world`
`05:23.01`	`tensai`	`no, actually I think Christ had it a little worse off`
`05:23.15`	`mheath`	`Poeple were being lazy, living dull boring lives.`
`05:23.26`	`mheath`	`But we - we were the most intense individuals in the world! We were the BEST!`
`05:23.36`	`Sargun`	`how many geniuses do you think don't expend their true capabilities, I think that their story -- having the chance to cure cancer -- is worse`
`05:23.38`	`mheath`	`It kills me to know that I'm not even physically capable of living like that anymore.`
`05:23.47`	`Sargun`	`ok.`
`05:24.07`	`Sargun`	`Even though I am very anti-christ, he had it much worse off`
`05:24.18`	`Sargun`	`Being nailed to a pole = ouchness`
`05:24.26`	`mheath`	`What kills me the most is, like I said...If I didn't know about this disease, chances are it probably would have never cause any problems. Like I said, my dad has all the symptoms/signs too, and he hasn't had any problems in life.`
`05:24.42`	`Sargun`	`ignorance is truly bliss.`
`05:24.49`	`Sargun`	`~ignorance`
`05:24.52`	`ibot`	`Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity is TERMINAL!!`
`05:24.52`	`mheath`	`If I had just found out about it later in life, chances are I would have enjoyed a normal life without a care in the world`
`05:24.57`	`Sargun`	`uhh.`
`05:25.00`	`Sargun`	`nevermind.`
`05:25.14`	`mheath`	`I'd still be in my freakin corps. :(`
`05:25.15`	`Sargun`	`I mean, death would be a downside right?`
`05:25.19`	`Sargun`	`military or death.`
`05:25.24`	`Sargun`	`which would most choose?`
`05:25.49`	`Sargun`	`err`
`05:25.51`	`Sargun`	`nevermind`
`05:25.55`	`Sargun`	`death or depression`
`05:25.58`	`Sargun`	`better`
`05:26.03`	`Sargun`	`I choose depression`
`05:26.13`	`Sargun`	`at least I'll have a time of hardship in my life`
`05:26.20`	`mheath`	`Ronald Reagan has a famous quote`
`05:26.27`	`Sargun`	`he has many`
`05:26.42`	`mheath`	`Can't remember exactly, but it was something along the lines of "Most people wonder if they're making a difference in the world. Marines don't have that problem."`
`05:26.50`	`mheath`	`Now I have to wonder if I'm making a difference in the world.`
`05:27.12`	`mheath`	`Will anyone even remember my normal mundane life, or anything I contributed to the world?`
`05:27.25`	`Sargun`	`"Marines know if they keep serving, they will die"`
`05:27.35`	`Sargun`	`um, if you cure cancer`
`05:27.53`	`mheath`	`I'm going to sleep. I've got a sorry excuse for 'work' in the morning.`
`05:28.03`	`mheath`	`Being lazy while I get no satisfaction and make crappy money for a few hours.`
`05:28.21`	`Sargun`	`ok.`
`05:28.33`	`Sargun`	`then go off and found one of your great business ideas`
`05:29.17`	`Sargun`	`that's a great monologue`
`05:29.55`	`Sargun`	`If he died, we'd be one farther from 300 million`
`05:30.03`	`Sargun`	`that would be the suck`
`05:30.31`	`mheath`	`Sargun: "marines know if they keep serving, they will die" <-- Not only is that the most screwed up made up quote ever, its wrong.`
`05:30.46`	`mheath`	`I would rather die for my country at the age of 18 and go down in the books than die at 75 as a retired computer programmer.`
`05:32.08`	`Sargun`	`I thought I was ignored`
`05:33.06`	`Sargun`	`mheath, would you rather die for an extremely stupid president, or write an algorithm to speed up protein folding simulations, that would help cure your genetic disease?`
`05:34.22`	`Sargun`	`~cointoss`
`05:34.36`	`Sargun`	`~random`
`05:35.26`	`tensai`	`but where is walla walla?`
`05:36.37`	`nick125`	`washington :P`
`05:38.40`	`tensai`	`mheath: here's the point. life happens. you either adapt or die. you've clearly shown you've got the cajones to take on a challenge. so do the same with this next stage in your life.`
`05:38.47`	`Tene`	`http://conan.kary.ca/`
`05:38.57`	`Sargun`	`tensai, he is asleep`
`05:39.43`	`tensai`	`at this hour? what a lazy bum.`
`05:40.01`	`Sargun`	`I know`
`05:40.16`	`tensai`	`I've got router upgrades to finish`
`05:40.31`	`Sargun`	`cisco?`
`05:52.33`	`tensai`	`yup`
`05:54.05`	`Sargun`	`Fun!`
`05:54.10`	`Sargun`	`you should roll your own`
`05:54.16`	`Sargun`	`prepares for the flames`
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`06:14.53`	`tensai`	`am I still here?`
`06:14.55`	`tensai`	`~tensai`
`06:14.57`	`ibot`	`somebody said tensai was a large smoked salmon`
`06:15.07`	`Sargun`	`sure`
`06:15.20`	`tensai`	`yay. my router upgrade must have worked. it was down for 4 minutes. seemed like forever.`
`06:15.32`	`tensai`	`looks like I took out maquis though`
`06:15.36`	`Sargun`	`lol`
`06:15.45`	`Sargun`	`you took out the BYU network for 4 minutes?`
`06:16.07`	`tensai`	`no, she runs irssi in screen on my box`
`06:16.15`	`Sargun`	`:-(`
`06:16.37`	`tensai`	`I use ctrlproxy. apparently it handles 4 minute outages better.`
`06:17.32`	`Sargun`	`I wonder what that would do`
`06:17.40`	`Sargun`	`taking out the BYU core network`
`06:17.42`	`Sargun`	`for 4 minutes`
`06:18.26`	`tensai`	`everybody would shrug and say, "OIT is back at it again"`
`06:18.40`	`nick125`	`LOL`
`06:19.20`	`Sargun`	`lol`
`06:19.21`	`nick125`	`Sargun: tomorrow, I say we work on XORP vs quagga benchmarks`
`06:19.26`	`Sargun`	`if that happened to any UC`
`06:19.40`	`Sargun`	`A graduate student would go postal.`
`06:19.51`	`Sargun`	`considering they all host I2 infrastructure`
`06:20.06`	`Sargun`	`you'd have a bunch of pissed of hippies with access to a nuclear weapons lab.`
`06:20.29`	`Sargun`	`hmm, that sounds comfortable`
`06:25.38`	`Sargun`	`poke.`
`06:26.12`	`nick125`	`Sargun: how about we test XORP and quagga tomorrow`
`06:27.10`	`Sargun`	`A day isn't enough to setup quagga`
`06:27.13`	`Sargun`	`or Xorp`
`06:27.30`	`nick125`	`then lets test what we can over the weekend`
`06:28.38`	`Sargun`	`ok`
`06:28.51`	`Sargun`	`I figured out how to fix it`
`06:28.52`	`Sargun`	`btw`
`06:28.54`	`Sargun`	`turn off ARP`
`06:29.05`	`nick125`	`...`
`06:29.12`	`Sargun`	`the DDoS`
`06:29.16`	`Sargun`	`nevermind`
`06:29.19`	`nick125`	`that turns off our network too`
`06:29.21`	`Sargun`	`nobody understands me.`
`06:29.30`	`Sargun`	`cry`
`06:29.45`	`nick125`	`I don't think you can really filter ARP either`
`06:29.53`	`nick125`	`I think the fix is getting rid of bridging`
`06:30.18`	`nick125`	`would help alot`
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`07:41.31`	`bonez39`	`if I find lots of weirdly named PPD files in /var/tmp, can I delete them ? I think fsck stuck them there ...`
`07:42.23`	`Sargun`	`no clue`
`07:43.11`	`Sargun`	`you running cups?`
`07:43.14`	`Sargun`	`or samba`
`07:44.47`	`Tene`	`I doubt they came from fsck.`
`07:45.01`	`Tene`	`PPD is printer-related stuff, I believe`
`07:45.14`	`Sargun`	`yeah`
`07:45.24`	`Sargun`	`samba puts them in /var/tmp sometimes`
`07:50.51`	`bonez39`	`Sargun, yeah, cups`
`07:50.56`	`bonez39`	`samba too`
`07:51.00`	`Sargun`	`oh`
`07:51.04`	`Sargun`	`that explains it`
`07:51.13`	`Sargun`	`just setup tmpwatch to clean them up`
`07:51.36`	`bonez39`	`tmpwatch, ok...`
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`11:41.35`	`emcnabb`	`http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/06/plant.fire/index.html`
`11:41.41`	`emcnabb`	`this is 4 miles from my house`
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`12:15.04`	`calvarez`	`good morning`
`12:20.05`	`emcnabb`	`calvarez: morning`
`12:20.39`	`emcnabb`	`calvarez: so you go to georgia tech?`
`12:23.05`	`emcnabb`	`bbl`
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`13:28.15`	`Supaplex`	`:-D wifi on uta busses rock. If only they started this a few years ago`
`13:29.59`	`graphyx`	`they have wifi on the buses? That rocks hard core..`
`13:30.16`	`Supaplex`	`I'm on the 72 express coming into SLC right now.`
`13:30.22`	`Supaplex`	`:)`
`13:30.35`	`graphyx`	`On the freeway?`
`13:30.41`	`Supaplex`	`yes`
`13:30.43`	`graphyx`	`Does it stay connected all the time?`
`13:31.06`	`graphyx`	`What's their uplink type?`
`13:31.06`	`graphyx`	`how do they maintain the link?`
`13:31.08`	`Supaplex`	`looks like it's sprint`
`13:31.16`	`Supaplex`	`aka, cell`
`13:31.31`	`graphyx`	`ok.`
`13:31.35`	`graphyx`	`Whats the bandwidth?`
`13:32.01`	`Supaplex`	`seems like 256kdsl ish.`
`13:32.08`	`Supaplex`	`time for a speed test :)`
`13:32.19`	`graphyx`	`That's plenty fast.`
`13:32.38`	`graphyx`	`So you don't have interupt your bit torrent downloads while getting to work?`
`13:32.58`	`Supaplex`	`heh I do that at work.`
`13:33.07`	`graphyx`	`Right.`
`13:33.13`	`Supaplex`	`when you have a few DS3's handy >:)`
`13:33.15`	`graphyx`	`And now you can download at home, at work and while in between.`
`13:33.37`	`Supaplex`	`I guess I could, but i haven't leeched any bt in a while`
`13:34.57`	`graphyx`	`I was being facecious`
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`13:47.35`	`redbeard1`	`Supaplex: you still there?`
`13:49.16`	`mheath`	`What's odd is, a newspaper article said it cost something like $5,000 to _outfit_ the bus with the wireless`
`13:49.31`	`redbeard1`	`mheath: do you have a link?`
`13:49.33`	`mheath`	`Cell-phone-provider internet shouldn't cost $5,000 to plug in on a bus.`
`13:49.51`	`mheath`	`redbeard1: No. I just know that some of their express buses now have wireless internet.`
`13:50.00`	`mheath`	`redbeard1: I believe it's free with the cost of the bus ride.`
`13:50.18`	`redbeard1`	`express busses only?`
`14:00.17`	`Supaplex`	`redbeard1: no fee. just bus fare to ride the bus etc`
`14:00.18`	`Supaplex`	`I could outfit A bus for less then 20% of that :P`
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`14:00.32`	`redbeard1`	`Supaplex: that's handy. that would make it worthwhile for me to move to salt lake and just commute to orem.`
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`14:03.12`	`redbeard1`	`i wonder if the $5k per bus includes more than just the wiring on the bus itself. it may include things like towers to fill in any gaps sprint might have had, or contract fees or something like that.`
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`14:03.26`	`^Migs^`	`sorry about that netsplit everyone. My finger slipped.`
`14:03.26`	`Supaplex`	`yea, something like that.`
`14:03.26`	`^Migs^`	`Supaplex, that is so sweet. Now I can totally start looking for a job in SLC.`
`14:03.27`	`^Migs^`	`I used to take the bus to SLC every day about 6 years ago`
`14:03.52`	`redbeard1`	`i wouldn't mind living in salt lake and just taking the express to work in orem, if i had internet on the way`
`14:03.52`	`redbeard1`	`Supaplex: do they have outlets to plug in my notebook too?`
`14:04.36`	`Supaplex`	`ok, so $120 for the pc, who knows how much for shipping, and $30 for a stable wifi card, and $500 for the cell data card. maybe $100 for antennas. http://www.evertek.com/viewpart.asp?auto=23656&cm_mmc=Evertek-_-email-_-10_06_06DSSpotlight-_-SYS-SAMBA1845-17-1`
`14:04.58`	`Supaplex`	`redbeard1: in the back`
`14:05.52`	`^Migs^`	`keep in mind they might be contracting this out. That probably multiples the cost by 10.`
`14:05.52`	`Supaplex`	`nod`
`14:06.12`	`Supaplex`	`I had considered to approach UTA about this very thing about a month ago.`
`14:06.16`	`Supaplex`	`I'm glad someone took my lead ;)`
`14:07.18`	`mheath`	`gah`
`14:07.23`	`redbeard1`	`Supaplex: i can't find anything on utabus.com about it... do you know if they have something there?`
`14:07.37`	`^Migs^`	`you should have patented your idea`
`14:07.49`	`mheath`	`I swear, if I have to hear another person at my work today say "I'm sorry about the military, I knew how much that meant to you" I'm going to slap someone.`
`14:07.53`	`mheath`	`~lart everyone`
`14:08.03`	`^Migs^`	`omg, I hate people that do that`
`14:08.23`	`^Migs^`	`just get in your face and remind you of crap like that, when you've moved on, or are trying to move on.`
`14:08.30`	`Supaplex`	`sorry about the military? HUH?`
`14:08.59`	`Supaplex`	`if it weren't for the military, you'd have countless other worries`
`14:09.01`	`mheath`	`My old platoon is on the crucible this week :(`
`14:09.16`	`mheath`	`The most intense part of USMC basic training. Sleep deprivation and intense training.`
`14:09.19`	`mheath`	`And what am I doing?`
`14:09.25`	`mheath`	`I'm starting as a host at an Applebees.`
`14:09.33`	`^Migs^`	`nice`
`14:09.43`	`^Migs^`	`which Applebee's?`
`14:09.48`	`mheath`	`I'm such a lazy, worthless piece of crap, and I always will be.`
`14:09.49`	`graphyx`	`mheath: sleep dep and intense trainig? Sounds like cram week at college..`
`14:09.50`	`^Migs^`	`we'll all have to come by and harass you`
`14:09.52`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: Riverdale.`
`14:10.01`	`^Migs^`	`cool, right near me`
`14:10.06`	`graphyx`	`Make him wait on you.`
`14:10.07`	`mheath`	`graphyx: ...I'm not going to reply to that.`
`14:10.11`	`^Migs^`	`oh I will`
`14:10.16`	`Supaplex`	`ohhh so that applebees :P`
`14:10.20`	`graphyx`	`One thing him to death and then leave no tip.. ;) That would be cruel.`
`14:10.29`	`mheath`	`graphyx: I imagine ^Migs^ will want to get drunk, and I'm just a host. I can't serve him liquor.`
`14:10.43`	`^Migs^`	`hmmm`
`14:10.44`	`mheath`	`or food. Thats the servers job`
`14:10.47`	`^Migs^`	`looks like I'm not getting drunk then`
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`14:10.52`	`^Migs^`	`oh`
`14:10.53`	`graphyx`	`ph just a host.`
`14:10.56`	`graphyx`	`ok., nvm`
`14:10.58`	`^Migs^`	`you're just the guy who greets people?`
`14:11.01`	`mheath`	`But my brother is a server there; don't leave him a tip and I WILL kick your butt.`
`14:11.08`	`^Migs^`	`cool, who's your brother?`
`14:11.15`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: And busses tables -.-`
`14:11.27`	`mheath`	`I'm also working as a ToGo server`
`14:11.32`	`mheath`	`Answer the phones, take togo orders.`
`14:11.34`	`^Migs^`	`it's better to be a bus than a waiter`
`14:11.56`	`emcnabb`	`mheath: why not a computer job?`
`14:12.00`	`^Migs^`	`yeah`
`14:12.15`	`mheath`	`emcnabb: This is a temporary job until I move to SLC in January and start college at the UofU`
`14:12.34`	`^Migs^`	`why not get a temporary job in SLC?`
`14:12.39`	`^Migs^`	`or a part-time job, I mean`
`14:12.47`	`emcnabb`	`lots of work you can do remotely too`
`14:12.48`	`^Migs^`	`that way you don't have to look for a whole new job`
`14:12.49`	`mheath`	`emcnabb: I searched for a computer job for a few weeks, and didn't get anything. This is the place I used to work, so they were required to give me a job.`
`14:13.06`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: I'm living at my dads place right now. I don't have the money to move out yet.`
`14:13.10`	`^Migs^`	`Our head network guy started working for us a week after he graduated from high school.`
`14:13.24`	`^Migs^`	`sweet deal for him`
`14:13.25`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: When I DO move out, it will probably have to be to a dorm, as I'll be using mainly student loan money to pay for it`
`14:13.32`	`^Migs^`	`yeah`
`14:13.50`	`emcnabb`	`mheath: I thought you were going to Weber State?`
`14:13.59`	`^Migs^`	`no, he betrayed the Wildcats`
`14:14.09`	`^Migs^`	`going to lame ol' U of U`
`14:14.15`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: Yeah. Whereas I have certifications, job experience in computer tech support and sales, and lots of personl experience, and I can't get a job in the computer field`
`14:14.22`	`mheath`	`I interviewed for a desktop support position`
`14:14.45`	`mheath`	`I think I didn't get it because I interviewed days after I got home from basic, and I kept habitually calling him Sir despite his insistance that I don'.`
`14:14.48`	`mheath`	`*don't`
`14:14.54`	`^Migs^`	`oops`
`14:14.54`	`emcnabb`	`mheath: I started consulting work for the University of Illinois when I was a sophomore in college`
`14:15.04`	`emcnabb`	`I mean high school`
`14:15.24`	`emcnabb`	`my junior year of high school I did system administration part time`
`14:15.36`	`emcnabb`	`I didn't get paid a ton, but it gave me good experience`
`14:15.40`	`mheath`	`emcnabb: The place I worked for narrowly missed a contract for ALL the hardware support and sales for Weber State`
`14:15.42`	`^Migs^`	`you could get an internship`
`14:15.49`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: I've already had one.`
`14:15.57`	`emcnabb`	`get another`
`14:16.03`	`^Migs^`	`you can do better than desktop support, too`
`14:16.20`	`^Migs^`	`you're smart, right? Get a junior admin position.`
`14:16.34`	`^Migs^`	`if you're going to be in SLC, there's plenty of opportunities.`
`14:16.53`	`^Migs^`	`it's harder, though not impossible, finding tech jobs in the Ogden area.`
`14:16.55`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: When I'm in SLC, I'll be focusing on college full time. Probably just get a part time job on campus.`
`14:17.03`	`^Migs^`	`hmm`
`14:17.09`	`^Migs^`	`I was a computer lab assistant when I was in college`
`14:17.11`	`^Migs^`	`that was fun`
`14:17.17`	`^Migs^`	`mostly I just did my homework the whole time`
`14:17.31`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: I did TONS of job hunting for lots of positions, including desktop support positions and junior sysadmins`
`14:17.38`	`^Migs^`	`TONS?`
`14:17.47`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: I applied at around 30 different places`
`14:17.48`	`^Migs^`	`wow`
`14:17.51`	`mheath`	`I had 4 different interviews`
`14:18.03`	`^Migs^`	`too many people nowadays require bachelor's degrees`
`14:18.22`	`mheath`	`Only place that was ready to hire me was some kinda shady tech-hiring-agency place`
`14:18.31`	`mheath`	`I didn't know thats what it was when I submitted my resume to them`
`14:18.40`	`mheath`	`I'd rather work with a business directly`
`14:18.43`	`^Migs^`	`yeah`
`14:18.44`	`emcnabb`	`mheath: was that a metric or long TON?`
`14:18.52`	`^Migs^`	`those tech hiring people are constantly calling me`
`14:18.54`	`mheath`	`~lart emcnabb`
`14:18.57`	`^Migs^`	`like, every night.`
`14:19.01`	`^Migs^`	`then I get a plethora of emails, too`
`14:19.40`	`*** join/#utah scothoser (n=scothose@wifi-177140.aoce.utah.edu)`
`14:19.50`	`mheath`	`I wish I hadn't been so uptight when I interviewed for that desktop support position (the Sir interview)`
`14:19.57`	`mheath`	`I think that interview went REALLY well other than that`
`14:20.03`	`mheath`	`I answered all their tech questions perfectly.`
`14:20.20`	`^Migs^`	`Do you want a recommendation?`
`14:20.25`	`^Migs^`	`seeing as how I know your skills so well`
`14:20.44`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: Nah. I'm going to stick with Applebees for a bit.`
`14:20.50`	`^Migs^`	`everyone in here should get together and write a joint recommendation for mheath`
`14:21.00`	`^Migs^`	`that would be awesome`
`14:21.09`	`mheath`	`I'm not making money right now to pay for a house or car. Just a bit of spending money, and a little bit to put towards college`
`14:21.16`	`^Migs^`	`yeah`
`14:21.38`	`emcnabb`	`"mheath is an ex-marine, hurd kernel engineer with a passion for IRC. He would be a wonder ass[et] for your company."`
`14:21.55`	`mheath`	`This job is actually pretty nice. Its nice going back to my old job...everyone was really excited to have me back (I just wish they'd shut up with the "Sorry this didn't work out for you" conversations)`
`14:21.57`	`^Migs^`	`lol`
`14:22.25`	`mheath`	`Heh, it felt weird saying I was reffered to one of the jobs by someone on IRC`
`14:22.33`	`mheath`	`it was the position I interviewed for and said Sir too much`
`14:22.58`	`mheath`	`I can't remember who on here reffered me...but I sent an e-mail to them with my resume saying "______ said you might have some openings"`
`14:23.02`	`wps`	`any SVN exerts here?`
`14:23.07`	`graphyx`	`I suppose it's terrible that so many people were hoping for your dream to come true and wanted it to happen for you enough to care about what happened when you didn't get to do what you wanted to do.`
`14:23.09`	`wps`	`is it possible to revert an entire update?`
`14:23.11`	`^Migs^`	`who was the ___?`
`14:23.17`	`^Migs^`	`KoolGuy182 or something?`
`14:23.33`	`wps`	`I just did an "svn update" and would like to undo the entire thing`
`14:23.36`	`^Migs^`	`or did you use the real name?`
`14:23.37`	`mheath`	`So when the guy calls me up: "How do you know _________?" "Just a friend..." "You know him from IRC?" "erm, yeah..."`
`14:23.39`	`emcnabb`	`so, that plant explosion happened 4 - 5 miles from our house`
`14:23.40`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: I don't remember.`
`14:23.46`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: yeah, I used the real name,`
`14:23.50`	`^Migs^`	`nothing wrong with being referred to IRC, especially for a tech company.`
`14:23.53`	`emcnabb`	`it was weird driving to work today`
`14:23.59`	`emcnabb`	`kind of eerie along the highway`
`14:24.02`	`^Migs^`	`If they're not savvy enough to be hip to IRC, they're not worth working for`
`14:24.07`	`mheath`	`hahah`
`14:24.26`	`graphyx`	`I got my job from a referal from a friend on irc.`
`14:24.29`	`mheath`	`I do kind of like the 'quality' of people IRC attracts`
`14:24.35`	`*** join/#utah Cleetus (n=Cleetus@64.105.153.106)`
`14:24.39`	`mheath`	`intelligent people capable of conversation, unlike the vast majority of chat rooms on the net now`
`14:24.49`	`graphyx`	`Cleetus: Morning.`
`14:24.57`	`Cleetus`	`graphyx: morning`
`14:25.05`	`Cleetus`	`-lart ibot`
`14:25.19`	`mheath`	`~lart Cleetus`
`14:25.37`	`Cleetus`	`-lart mheath`
`14:25.52`	`mheath`	`That's not how you say morning, Cleetus and graphyx`
`14:25.58`	`mheath`	`This is how you say good morning:`
`14:26.11`	`graphyx`	`~greet mheath`
`14:26.15`	`ibot`	`ACTION dumps a bucket of cold oatmeal on mheath`
`14:26.15`	`graphyx`	`like that?`
`14:27.09`	`^Migs^`	`<mheath> intelligent people capable of conversation, unlike the vast majority of chat rooms on the net now`
`14:27.17`	`levi`	`Mmm, cold oatmeal.`
`14:27.17`	`mheath`	`GOOD MORNING, SIR. THE TIME ON DECK IS 0825, AND RECRUIT HEATH REPORTS BUILDING 585 SQUADBAY A2 IS ALL SECURE AT THIS TIME. THE COUNT ON DECK IS 83 UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS RECRUITS, 81 UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS M16A2 SERVICE RIFLES ALL DOUBLE LOCKED AND ON SAFE, AND 83 UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS FOOTLOCKERS, ALL PROPERLY SECURED AT THIS TIME. THERE IS NOTHING UNUSUAL TO REPORT AT THIS TIME, SIR!`
`14:27.27`	`^Migs^`	`clearly, you don't visit many IRC channels other than this one`
`14:27.30`	`Cleetus`	`~greet mheath`
`14:27.31`	`ibot`	`ACTION dumps a bucket of cold oatmeal on mheath`
`14:27.34`	`^Migs^`	`:)`
`14:27.54`	`^Migs^`	`~greet mheath`
`14:27.56`	`ibot`	`ACTION dumps a bucket of cold oatmeal on mheath`
`14:28.18`	`levi`	`No, that may be how crazy Marines say good morning, but I won't be adopting it.`
`14:28.25`	`mheath`	`Try yelling the above paragraph at the top of your lungs in under 10 seconds :P`
`14:28.25`	`graphyx`	`I don't know about that mheath I have never been greeted that way.`
`14:29.42`	`mheath`	`I was surprised, actually`
`14:29.50`	`mheath`	`the commanding general of MCRD San Diego is a woman.`
`14:30.08`	`mheath`	`BRIGGEN Salinas`
`14:30.29`	`levi`	`Why is it surprising that a woman might be crazy, too?`
`14:30.36`	`mheath`	`haha`
`14:30.55`	`*** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-68-22-220-206.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)`
`14:33.21`	`graphyx`	`Is that one of those sensor laptops? That do stuff when you hit it or move it?`
`14:33.48`	`mheath`	`oh look, it did something.`
`14:33.51`	`levi`	`Ew, you can't cleanly separate the lexer and parser for Ruby.`
`14:36.10`	`levi`	`I guess the culprit is string interpolation.`
`14:36.26`	`levi`	`Silly perlisms.`
`14:40.49`	`Sargun`	`as a host at applebees`
`14:41.14`	`mheath`	`Sargun: go screw yourself.`
`14:41.35`	`Sargun`	`I'm not capable`
`14:41.49`	`Sargun`	`At least you'll become a people person`
`14:42.20`	`mheath`	`Sargun: spoken like someone who doesn't know me at all in person.`
`14:43.15`	`Sargun`	`That was a horrible joke I admit`
`14:43.24`	`Sargun`	`but what happened to mheath's /ignore`
`14:47.07`	`*** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.utahbroadband.com)`
`14:50.43`	`goozbach`	`dont make me break out teh +m`
`15:01.52`	`*** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu)`
`15:05.47`	`Jayce^`	`goozbach, http://www.comics.com/comics/sheldon/index.html`
`15:16.40`	`mrpull`	`Jayce^: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/10/facadeprinter_distance_printin.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890`
`15:18.35`	`*** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker)`
`15:18.36`	`*** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ`
`15:19.33`	`Jayce^`	`ooh, nice mrpull`
`15:22.56`	`levi`	`Jayce^: I hate it when people walk around with those bluetooth gadgets on their ear. :P`
`15:23.58`	`mrpull`	`levi: i hate when people talk on the phone at inappropriate times and places... and the headsets seem to contribute to that`
`15:23.59`	`Jayce^`	`they are fine with me if you are actually using it (and not talking loudly in a public spot)..`
`15:24.09`	`Jayce^`	`the gadget itself is fine`
`15:24.15`	`Jayce^`	`but only wear it as you use it`
`15:24.21`	`goozbach`	`I think it'd be cool to mod a bluetooth headset to look like lobot's thing`
`15:24.28`	`mrpull`	`good for driving or typing`
`15:24.50`	`levi`	`They do make one look like a total loser, though, when worn without actively using it.`
`15:25.19`	`levi`	`"Look at me, I'm so important that I have to be available on the phone EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY."`
`15:25.21`	`graphyx`	`mrpull: And I thought my printer was expensive to refill...`
`15:30.19`	`Jayce^`	`nah, buy by the case, that's nothing :)`
`15:30.56`	`levi`	`Wow, people have donated over $68k for Robert Anton WIlson so far.`
`15:31.18`	`levi`	`Apparently he's sick and dying at home, and didn't have money left to pay the rent.`
`15:31.58`	`mheath`	`He can pay the rent now, I think. :P`
`15:32.11`	`mheath`	`Would you all believe me if I said I was sick and dieing and had rent to pay?`
`15:32.11`	`levi`	`Yeah.`
`15:32.17`	`mrpull`	`does he have to pay taxes on it?`
`15:32.27`	`levi`	`mheath: You are not a famous author.`
`15:32.35`	`mheath`	`levi: Um...yes I am?`
`15:32.38`	`mheath`	`=P`
`15:32.39`	`*** join/#utah jakea (n=jakea@128.187.156.174)`
`15:33.01`	`mheath`	`haha`
`15:33.29`	`mheath`	`levi: I wrote...ummm...The encyclopedia britannica. That was all me.`
`15:36.24`	`*** part/#utah scothoser (n=scothose@wifi-177140.aoce.utah.edu)`
`15:43.41`	`*** part/#utah Cleetus (n=Cleetus@64.105.153.106)`
`15:44.40`	`maquis_`	`jakea: i'd be scared if i were you`
`15:46.42`	`mheath`	`haha`
`15:46.52`	`mheath`	`Wow, I actually met someone who's Japanese =P`
`15:47.09`	`mheath`	`I've made it a habbit of asking people with japanese nicknames if they're actually Japanese or if they just took it from an Anime`
`15:47.18`	`mheath`	`Always made up or from an Anime. Actually met someone who's Japanese, though`
`15:47.42`	`scott`	`Anyone here maintain servers that they have automatically install security patches from either debian or fedora or whatnot? Do you have trouble with security patches bringing down (incompatibilities) services? I'm thinking mostly web, email, samba..`
`15:48.31`	`mheath`	`scott: Debian is really good for that, but I wouldn't try it with Fedora.`
`15:48.37`	`mheath`	`imho`
`15:49.01`	`mheath`	`I leave for work in a bit. Yah.`
`15:49.14`	`*** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com)`
`15:49.17`	`scott`	`Because our admin has slackware installed and so he has to apply patches manually. He doesn't want to use a repository system because he thinks it will automatically update and mess things up`
`15:49.57`	`scott`	`What about using ubuntu as a server? does it use the same security repo as debian? probably not huh`
`15:50.22`	`mheath`	`scott: better than debian actually, imho`
`15:50.34`	`mheath`	`scott: Ubuntu's core packages are literally modified debian packages.`
`15:50.39`	`^Migs^`	`you can't make up a Japanese name. Japanese names actually mean stuff.`
`15:50.41`	`mheath`	`They're pulled from debian unstable`
`15:51.08`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: They put together several Japanese 'characters'/sounds (for lack of a better term).`
`15:51.13`	`^Migs^`	`exactly`
`15:51.14`	`^Migs^`	`which is stupid`
`15:51.21`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: Which, like you said, usually causes their name to have a rather weird meaning`
`15:51.32`	`mheath`	`shrug The Japanese do it too, though`
`15:51.39`	`^Migs^`	`pfft`
`15:51.44`	`^Migs^`	`the Japs don't know how to speak proper Japanese`
`15:51.52`	`mheath`	`Its popular to go arond there with shirts with English written on it, and it's usually nonsensical combinations of words`
`15:52.05`	`^Migs^`	`haha`
`15:52.41`	`mheath`	`When I was at bootcamp, a guy had a Kanji character written on his neck`
`15:52.48`	`mheath`	`He was convinced it meant "strength"`
`15:52.59`	`jakea`	`why do I need to be scared maquis?`
`15:53.04`	`mheath`	`It was either very poorly drawn or he was told wrong, because it was the character for a type of sword.`
`15:53.06`	`maquis`	`jakea: did you see what ibot said to you?`
`15:53.22`	`mheath`	`^Migs^: I knew someone on IRC with a Japanese-looking nick.`
`15:53.28`	`mheath`	`I looked up what the word meant, though.`
`15:53.31`	`maquis`	`mheath: and that type of sword didn't have anything to do with strength?`
`15:53.52`	`mheath`	`It was a verb that meant literally "to leave the warehouse with a shipment"`
`15:54.03`	`mheath`	`maquis: Not directly. The two characters could have been similar`
`15:54.15`	`maquis`	`hmm... interesting.`
`15:54.17`	`mheath`	`I don't know what the character for 'strength' is, and theres likely to be several`
`15:54.24`	`jakea`	`the ibot always flirts with me, it's like I'm back working at lagoon where flirting with cute girls was part of my job`
`15:54.28`	`mheath`	`But the character on his neck quite literally meant a type of sharpened metal`
`15:54.41`	`maquis`	`i'm guessing that the character for strength in japanese is quite similar to the character in chinese`
`15:54.47`	`mheath`	`jakea: haha, that was the best part of working at lagoon`
`15:54.58`	`mheath`	`No pay, it was my first job...but I think I met a new girl every day =P`
`15:55.04`	`jakea`	`indeed`
`15:55.10`	`maquis`	`jakea: yeah... except ibot's a bot`
`15:55.35`	`mheath`	`Don't listen to maquis, jakea. SHe's just jealous that ibot's dedicating all of its attention to you`
`15:55.39`	`mheath`	`Though, jakea, you should be aware:`
`15:55.41`	`jakea`	`getting games girls free flights on skycoaster was a good way to get her to go out with you`
`15:55.42`	`mheath`	`~gender`
`15:55.43`	`ibot`	`I'm not sure`
`15:55.55`	`jakea`	`ha ha`
`15:55.59`	`mheath`	`Heh, it used to say "I'm male", but that reply is even better :P`
`15:56.14`	`*** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com)`
`15:56.28`	`maquis`	`mheath: it's a random selection for what it says`
`15:56.31`	`maquis`	`~gender`
`15:56.36`	`ibot`	`I'm not sure`
`15:56.45`	`maquis`	`ibot: gender`
`15:56.46`	`ibot`	`I'm female`
`15:56.46`	`mheath`	`Doesn't seem so.`
`15:56.50`	`mheath`	`ah`
`15:56.55`	`mheath`	`ibot: gender`
`15:56.56`	`ibot`	`I'm not sure`
`15:56.58`	`bonez39`	`how do I get my drive mounte as r/w ...? some of my folders, i.e., /hom and /var are mounted, apparently as ro......preventing writing to those....`
`15:57.25`	`maquis`	`bonez39: is this a new occurrance?`
`15:57.31`	`bonez39`	`er.../hom = /home`
`15:57.59`	`mheath`	`maquis: any idea why the alt+number keystroke doesn't work in irssi on FreeBSD for switching windows?`
`15:57.59`	`bonez39`	`jsut happened...I had a few data errors...ran fsck.ext3 and it cleaned them.....it boots up clean now...but I can't write to certain areas......`
`15:58.13`	`mheath`	`maquis: all the other programs catch the alt+* keystrokes OK`
`15:58.39`	`maquis`	`mheath: interesting that you would ask`
`15:58.51`	`maquis`	`it worked fine for me on freebsd, but on ubuntu i'm having problmes with it`
`15:59.00`	`mheath`	`actually, be back later. Time to leave for work`
`15:59.04`	`mheath`	`heh, exact opposite for me :P`
`15:59.23`	`jakea`	`hmmm, as I recall, the ibot can be fun`
`15:59.24`	`maquis`	`something with the terminal settings, i believe`
`15:59.26`	`jakea`	`let's see...`
`15:59.31`	`jakea`	`ibot: shatner`
`15:59.33`	`maquis`	`~lart jakea`
`15:59.45`	`maquis`	`-lart jakea`
`16:00.00`	`bonez39`	`maquis, any ideas on this?`
`16:00.04`	`jakea`	`isn't there some way to ask her what something is?`
`16:00.13`	`maquis`	`bonez39: is it a new occurrance?`
`16:00.27`	`maquis`	`~shatner`
`16:01.03`	`jakea`	`~doctor`
`16:01.06`	`ibot`	`from memory, doctor is Dr Who a renegade Time Lord who travels through time and space in this Tardis (cleverly disguised as a police box) fighting evil in all its forms and kicking some serious ass`
`16:01.07`	`bonez39`	`maquis, is this a new occurrance..yes........it "just happened...I had a few .... " as quoted above`
`16:01.18`	`jakea`	`ha ha`
`16:01.23`	`jakea`	`~kirk`
`16:01.25`	`ibot`	`must... remain... conscious... in.. order.. to.. act.. badly...</captain kirk>`
`16:01.50`	`jakea`	`~dalek`
`16:01.52`	`ibot`	`from memory, dalek is a fictional extraterrestrial race of mutants from the British science fiction television series Doctor Who. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek`
`16:02.14`	`maquis`	`bonez39: try unmounting and remounting`
`16:02.48`	`^Migs^`	`http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/play_uk.php?id=1679940`
`16:02.53`	`bonez39`	`maquis, how..I would need to init to level 2? and then unmount and remount? or how woudl I try this?`
`16:02.54`	`maquis`	`jakea: how was the meeting last night`
`16:03.04`	`jakea`	`uh`
`16:03.25`	`maquis`	`bonez39: / isn't read-only is it?`
`16:03.27`	`jakea`	`I forgot to go last night`
`16:03.31`	`jakea`	`it was the second meeting I forgot to go to on Thursday`
`16:03.37`	`bonez39`	`I don't think so`
`16:03.40`	`jakea`	`~timelord`
`16:03.43`	`bonez39`	`but hold and le tme see`
`16:04.08`	`bonez39`	`/dev/hde1 / ext3 rw,errors=remount-ro 0 0`
`16:04.13`	`bonez39`	`that's from /etc/mtab`
`16:04.44`	`maquis`	`bonez39: i'd try manually remounting the ones that are ro, and if that doesn't work, reboot`
`16:04.51`	`maquis`	`or, if you're feeling lazy, reboot`
`16:05.15`	`bonez39`	`tell me..how would you remount the ones that are ro? I know, it's a dumb question...humor me`
`16:05.33`	`bonez39`	`just at the command line? I tried that and it did't work for /dev/hde6`
`16:06.15`	`levi`	`You can either umount and then mount again, or mount -o remount,rw`
`16:06.52`	`bonez39`	`levi, so at a prompt > mount -o remount,rw /`
`16:06.56`	`bonez39`	`is that what I'd run?`
`16:07.05`	`levi`	`Yes.`
`16:07.06`	`jakea`	`~khan`
`16:07.08`	`ibot`	`rumour has it, khan is the name given to the rulers of the mongol nation, also of the chinese empire after they conquered it., or the name of a very bizarre character in Star Trek II, "The wrath of Khan"`
`16:07.25`	`levi`	`I'm not sure if it'd work for the root partition.`
`16:07.41`	`levi`	`It's been a while since I've messed with stuff like that.`
`16:08.17`	`levi`	`Actually, it should work. You must be in some sort of failsafe mode though, right?`
`16:08.33`	`levi`	`Usually the init scripts take care of remounting the root fs as rw.`
`16:08.35`	`bonez39`	`reboot`
`16:17.30`	`rsimpkins`	`I believe that is what pivot_root does.`
`16:19.44`	`*** join/#utah Robdor (n=rob@208.187.198.179)`
`16:26.27`	`levi`	`IIRC, the kernel mounts / read-only at boot when it runs init.`
`16:27.08`	`maquis`	`levi: yeah... and then it remounts it rw iiuc`
`16:27.31`	`levi`	`Well, the kernel doesn't; init (or some program launched by it) does so.`
`16:27.39`	`maquis`	`yeah`
`16:27.54`	`levi`	`Or perhaps not, if you don't want a rw / .`
`16:28.33`	`maquis`	`true... if you have everything else mounted as separate partitions you could do that`
`16:28.41`	`maquis`	`seems like something of a pain, though`
`16:28.57`	`levi`	`It is sometimes a wise design decision in an embedded system.`
`16:29.13`	`maquis`	`yes`
`16:29.36`	`maquis`	`but for a regular system it would be a pain, i would think`
`16:31.54`	`levi`	`Probably.`
`16:32.15`	`levi`	`But it would ensure that the contents of the root fs were not tampered with, which might be a good idea in some situations.`
`16:32.47`	`maquis`	`in high security situations, it'd be good, if the security need justified it`
`16:33.33`	`levi`	`It would even be good for some corporate situations, to maintain desktops for workers.`
`16:35.34`	`maquis`	`depends on how much the workers might need to do`
`16:36.19`	`*** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@ip-216-73-177-176.hqglobal.net)`
`16:41.26`	`levi`	`Not for developers and such, but for people who run spreadsheets and word processors and email.`
`16:41.44`	`levi`	`And tend to install random crap if left to their own devices.`
`16:42.17`	`maquis`	`yeah`
`16:52.40`	`*** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp09.cs.nmsu.edu)`
`16:53.51`	`herlo`	`brac: you love HitchHiker's Guide don't you?`
`16:53.51`	`brac`	`no clue`
`16:56.09`	`levi`	`Hi, elg.`
`16:56.14`	`elg`	`well that was fun. I just had the pleaseure of lecturing on some nontraditional operations on regular languages`
`16:56.25`	`elg`	`the prof was going to be out of town, but ended up back early`
`16:56.32`	`elg`	`so he sat in too`
`16:56.38`	`herlo`	`elg: like?`
`16:56.40`	`levi`	`Cool. What did you cover?`
`16:57.07`	`elg`	`MIN(L), L^R, some of Half(L)`
`16:57.28`	`elg`	`and one that wasn't closed, DUP(L)`
`16:57.56`	`elg`	`did well enough I guess but lots of little things, or things missing. I have a hard enough time with those proofs on paper. :)`
`16:58.39`	`maquis`	`bonez never came back`
`16:58.44`	`maquis`	`hopefully his computer came up`
`16:58.48`	`elg`	`proving operations isn't nearly as easy as applying pumping lemma or the like. because you do all this work to do a construction and then you're still faced with the question "yes, but are you sure that construction does what you say it does?"`
`16:59.16`	`elg`	`I'm rarely able to make a convincing argument about that, unless using induction`
`16:59.41`	`elg`	`all in all I'd rather he sat in on the pumping lemma lecture, but it went ok`
`17:01.57`	`*** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-162-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)`
`17:02.11`	`levi`	`Cool.`
`17:02.18`	`levi`	`I need more experience with proofs.`
`17:03.09`	`levi`	`I've heard good things about Polya's 'How to Solve It'... any opinions on it?`
`17:08.28`	`*** join/#utah graphyx (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105)`
`17:12.01`	`*** join/#utah vex (n=vex@216.194.126.99)`
`17:19.01`	`*** join/#utah macnewbold (n=mac@69.2.248.251)`
`17:28.03`	`elg`	`is it a book?`
`17:28.06`	`elg`	`haven't heard of it`
`17:29.04`	`levi`	`Yes, a small book that's aimed at teaching heuristics for solving problems in math.`
`17:29.27`	`levi`	`Heh, I'm looking at this paper on compiling Ruby to LLVM.`
`17:29.48`	`levi`	`This guy cites a 1990 paper by Ungar, one of the Self guys, regarding Smalltalk performance.`
`17:30.40`	`levi`	`When a guy writes a paper about dramatically increasing performance of a system based on Smalltalk, it might be a good idea to see if his ideas were implemented afterwards.`
`17:30.48`	`*** join/#utah SB1-Work (n=kylesb@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1)`
`17:31.37`	`goozbach`	`anyone here familiar with Curses::UI?`
`17:32.07`	`goozbach`	`I'm trying to figure out how to imbed a terminal into a curses program`
`17:32.22`	`graphyx`	`usually my curses are auditory.`
`17:32.25`	`graphyx`	`Not graphical.`
`17:32.36`	`goozbach`	`~curse graphyx`
`17:32.43`	`ibot`	`May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, graphyx !`
`17:32.48`	`graphyx`	`Rats, saranwarpped again!`
`17:32.52`	`goozbach`	`ohhh burn!!!`
`17:33.06`	`SB1-Work`	`But I AM a WinXP admin! :'(`
`17:33.21`	`graphyx`	`see.. even dying won't get you out of it.`
`17:34.40`	`SB1-Work`	`Here's a better question than goozbach's ;)`
`17:34.48`	`SB1-Work`	`Anyone familiar with some good postfix docs?`
`17:34.50`	`*** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net)`
`17:34.59`	`SB1-Work`	`Namely related to LDAP for auth and MySQL for storage`
`17:35.32`	`levi`	`Anyway, making performance claims for a language with currently maintained commercial implementations based on a 16 year old paper is rather bad form!`
`17:44.34`	`levi`	`This guy cites Wikipedia in his Masters Thesis, too.`
`17:44.52`	`graphyx`	`wow...`
`17:45.00`	`graphyx`	`I didn't think schools would accept that.`
`17:45.21`	`graphyx`	`But the rule of thumb is to put every reference that you have even pulled off the shelf in your bibliography.`
`17:45.49`	`graphyx`	`Cause people who know about your topic expect you to cover already done works and if you don't look at a particular book that expect you to have read they don't like your thesis.`
`17:46.12`	`levi`	`It was mainly to cite a definition of 'dynamic language'.`
`17:46.19`	`levi`	`Which is a poorly-defined term anyway.`
`17:46.44`	`levi`	`I would have had a thing or two to say about this paper, had I been reviewing it.`
`17:47.52`	`levi`	`Anyway, I don't think llvm is the right target for Ruby anyway, despite the JIT features.`
`17:47.58`	`elg`	`hey, this is nifty: http://lwn.net/Articles/203192/rss`
`17:48.16`	`levi`	`Since it doesn't, AFAIK, take advantage of the Chambers & Ungar research he cited.`
`17:48.47`	`levi`	`elg: That is nifty.`
`17:48.48`	`^Migs^`	`omgyay4Linux!!!`
`17:49.14`	`SB1-Work`	`You know, ^Migs^, the more I listen to you`
`17:49.16`	`SB1-Work`	`The more you scare me`
`17:49.27`	`elg`	`there must be little of interest in your life`
`17:49.49`	`SB1-Work`	`It's more of a passive observance thing`
`17:50.07`	`elg`	`I didn't mean you`
`17:50.15`	`SB1-Work`	`Ah`
`17:50.41`	`levi`	`elg: For some reason, I have this burning desire to get Ruby running on the Strongtalk virtual machine. And I don't even use Ruby.`
`17:50.56`	`elg`	`it's kind of like the spirit of elijah`
`17:51.15`	`levi`	`Ruby would suddenly become really super fast.`
`17:51.48`	`levi`	`I /think/ that the semantics of Ruby are compatible with the Strongtalk vm semantics.`
`17:51.51`	`^Migs^`	`I'm really not that scary, I promise`
`17:52.03`	`^Migs^`	`I only PRETEND to be scary`
`17:52.15`	`elg`	`levi: a lot of people would hug you for hours on end if you made ruby really super fast`
`17:52.22`	`levi`	`elg: I'm sure.`
`17:52.23`	`elg`	`so before you do it, get your number unlisted`
`17:52.27`	`SB1-Work`	`Awesome, so you're delusional?`
`17:52.32`	`^Migs^`	`uh, no`
`17:52.41`	`^Migs^`	`maybe YOU'RE delusional, for thinking I'm so scary`
`17:52.46`	`SB1-Work`	`Maybe`
`17:52.51`	`SB1-Work`	`But I don't think I'm alone in that thought`
`17:53.24`	`*** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@65.103.127.70)`
`17:53.35`	`sjansen`	`Help, help, I'm being repressed!`
`17:53.36`	`levi`	`elg: I also found a cool research paper on a type-inferencing development tool for Smalltalk that would be interesting to apply to Ruby.`
`17:53.41`	`sjansen`	`~invoke goozbach`
`17:53.49`	`levi`	`WTF, it's sjansen?!`
`17:53.54`	`elg`	`whoa`
`17:53.58`	`sjansen`	`WFT, it's levi?!`
`17:54.03`	`elg`	`someone tie him to the wall! don't let him escape!`
`17:54.13`	`levi`	`The prodigal son has returned!`
`17:54.23`	`levi`	`Someone find a fatted calf!`
`17:54.45`	`*** topic/#utah by elg -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah \| Read http://plug.org/node/28 \| Keep the channel rated S (for sjansen) \| OALUG InstallFest @ WSU-Davis, October 12th 7:00PM \| I for one welcome our new sjansen overlords`
`17:54.54`	`SB1-Work`	`Okay, that's awesome`
`17:55.35`	`SB1-Work`	`Time to make a blog post, begging for help!`
`17:56.01`	`sjansen`	`Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool`
`17:56.01`	`sjansen`	`And all shootin' some b-ball outside of the school`
`17:56.01`	`sjansen`	`When a couple of guys who were up to no good`
`17:56.01`	`sjansen`	`Started makin' trouble in my neighborhood`
`17:56.20`	`SB1-Work`	`I got in one little fight and my ma got scared`
`17:56.38`	`levi`	`sjansen is THE FRESH PRINCE.`
`17:58.14`	`*** topic/#utah by sjansen -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah \| Read http://plug.org/node/28 \| <levi> sjansen is THE FRESH PRINCE. \| OALUG InstallFest @ WSU-Davis, October 12th 7:00PM \| I for one welcome our new sjansen overlords`
`18:00.05`	`*** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@ip-216-73-177-176.hqglobal.net)`
`18:01.03`	`*** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker)`
`18:01.03`	`*** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ`
`18:08.17`	`goozbach`	`sjansen: yes?`
`18:08.36`	`sjansen`	`~lick goozbach`
`18:08.38`	`ibot`	`ACTION licks goozbach SHLUUURRRRPPP`
`18:08.39`	`emcnabb`	`sjansen: so why did you decide to come back to the fold?`
`18:09.09`	`sjansen`	`Exams are boring.`
`18:09.28`	`goozbach`	`SJANSEN!!!! I'M SO HAPPY!!!!`
`18:09.44`	`goozbach`	`my mercs must have liberated you!`
`18:09.46`	`goozbach`	`YAY!`
`18:10.17`	`herlo`	`hola sjansen. apparently goozbach finally paid enough to have you back here on #utah`
`18:10.28`	`goozbach`	`FYI it's just "invoke goozbach"`
`18:10.35`	`goozbach`	`the tilde doesn't work`
`18:10.41`	`goozbach`	`~say invoke goozbach`
`18:10.42`	`ibot`	`invoke goozbach`
`18:10.49`	`emcnabb`	`goozbach: that was a crushing loss last night, eh?`
`18:10.57`	`goozbach`	`emcnabb: shuddap`
`18:11.03`	`emcnabb`	`suck to be a Florida State fan`
`18:11.14`	`goozbach`	`I'm not a fan`
`18:11.24`	`goozbach`	`just dating one`
`18:11.31`	`goozbach`	`sjansen: maybe you can help me.`
`18:11.37`	`sjansen`	`~help goozbach`
`18:11.43`	`herlo`	`my connection here is so bad, it's going to take 1.25 hours just to download a kernel rpm via yum`
`18:11.48`	`sjansen`	`<ibot> no help on goozbach. Use 'help' without arguments.`
`18:12.03`	`goozbach`	`how do I limit the lenght of an LDAP query from the server`
`18:12.04`	`goozbach`	`?`
`18:12.26`	`herlo`	`use the option --limit`
`18:12.31`	`herlo`	`:-P`
`18:12.38`	`sjansen`	`At which end? Using which tool? The server can enforce a max response size, and the client can request one.`
`18:12.50`	`emcnabb`	`how about '--im-goozbach-and-i-suck'`
`18:12.52`	`emcnabb`	`?`
`18:12.52`	`goozbach`	`we've got some broken clients (outlook) which are putting the whole email contents into the "to" field to look up addresses`
`18:13.04`	`goozbach`	`I want to enforce it on the ldap server side`
`18:13.14`	`goozbach`	`RH directory server to be specific`
`18:13.49`	`sjansen`	`Haven't played with RH/Fedora Directory Server.`
`18:13.56`	`goozbach`	`drat`
`18:14.08`	`goozbach`	`it's actually a funny problem`
`18:14.29`	`sjansen`	`If what you're saying is true, it's an incredibly stupid "feature".`
`18:14.41`	`goozbach`	`if the query comes from a windows machine DIRECTLY to the directory server, outlook refuses to send the huge query`
`18:15.19`	`goozbach`	`if the query goes through this firewall appliance we have, then outlook sends the data and completly downs the directory server`
`18:15.49`	`herlo`	`good ol' outlook`
`18:16.02`	`SB1-Work`	`Wow, that's broken`
`18:16.14`	`goozbach`	`so depending on the servername set up as an "Address book" on outlook determines weither or not to send a mal-formed query`
`18:17.21`	`goozbach`	`from the good news department: I figured how to put nethack into my new neverblock customer terminal application as an easter egg in a secure manner.`
`18:18.10`	`goozbach`	`come the end of october, my customers will be able to play nethack from their customer terminal while fiddling with their server`
`18:19.22`	`goozbach`	`where you teaching today sjansen?`
`18:20.00`	`maquis`	`happy autumn moon festival everyone`
`18:20.10`	`maquis`	`ok... here's a question`
`18:20.12`	`sjansen`	`Denver`
`18:20.59`	`maquis`	`i've got a dir that is chmodded 777 and a file that's 644. i'm trying to make a copy of the 644 file into the 777 dir. that shouldn't be a problem, right?`
`18:21.00`	`sjansen`	`maquis: the pin one`
`18:24.00`	`goozbach`	`ocrap meeting, brb`
`18:24.15`	`graphyx`	`I don't like ocrap meetings.`
`18:24.19`	`graphyx`	`They usually stink.`
`18:25.07`	`herlo`	`maquis: as long as you don't have any facls or DAC stuff set, you should be fine...`
`18:25.31`	`sjansen`	`DAC? Don't you mean MAC?`
`18:26.14`	`herlo`	`yeah, that's what I mean`
`18:26.18`	`herlo`	`sorry, thanx sjansen`
`18:27.07`	`sjansen`	`~feed maquis MAC & cheese`
`18:27.08`	`ibot`	`ACTION Takes MAC & cheese, hands it to a profesional 5 star restaurant staff, who expertly shove MAC & cheese down maquis's throat then throws maquis out into the back alley with the rest of the trash.`
`18:27.31`	`sjansen`	`Yup, I've still got the touch. ;-)`
`18:28.46`	`maquis`	`scrum time`
`18:29.06`	`herlo`	`maquis: scrum, as in Rugby?`
`18:30.27`	`herlo`	`http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&ei=p6AmRbjuEqDAgAPf5unUCg&sig2=HTLj_QMUvOz46N0zz2TS1A&q=http://www2.famvid.com/schaf/What%2520is%2520Rugby/Definitions.html&sig=__gNCJaJ0Dit0rA7uktdZboVH8b0Y=`
`18:31.07`	`sjansen`	`Probably SCRUM as in XP.`
`18:31.25`	`herlo`	`sjansen: I like the Rugby Def better`
`18:31.31`	`herlo`	`;-)`
`18:31.51`	`sjansen`	`403 Forbidden?`
`18:32.07`	`herlo`	`It's much more fun to watch a scrum in rugby than I'd imagine a scrum in XP`
`18:32.11`	`herlo`	`sjansen: hold on`
`18:33.05`	`herlo`	`http://www.allblacks.com/`
`18:33.11`	`herlo`	`much better site`
`18:33.22`	`herlo`	`sjansen: I didn't actually test the other link`
`18:35.31`	`herlo`	`sjansen: here's the life of an RHCE Examiner`
`18:36.11`	`herlo`	`I sit bored for 3 hours while examinees work feverishly. Once I they finish, I get to be feverish for about 15-30 minutes. Then, I get to hurry as fast as I can through traffic just to wait at the airport for an hour or so then hurry on, then sit for an hour or two, then hurry to the next gate, then wait for another hour or two, then hurry onto another plane where I wait yet again for another couple hours. After that, I get to hurry to the bu`
`18:37.03`	`herlo`	`and yet, I love every minute of it...`
`18:38.02`	`herlo`	`and I love all of the other time I have. Exploring different cities, eating great food. Meeting new people every week...`
`18:38.26`	`graphyx`	`Get some books.`
`18:38.35`	`graphyx`	`so that you have worthiwhile stuff to do while just waiting.`
`18:38.53`	`herlo`	`graphyx: I have a book...`
`18:38.53`	`graphyx`	`Or find an open source project to code while you wait.`
`18:38.56`	`herlo`	`and I regularly read on the plane and such. It's really actually nice`
`18:38.58`	`graphyx`	`You ar good at that stuff.`
`18:39.10`	`herlo`	`graphyx: what?! and miss Oprah?`
`18:39.30`	`graphyx`	`I never iss oprah.`
`18:39.37`	`graphyx`	`s/iss/miss/`
`18:39.47`	`graphyx`	`I haven't care one bit about her.`
`18:39.51`	`graphyx`	`so how could I miss her?`
`18:40.00`	`herlo`	`graphyx: Exactly!`
`18:41.36`	`herlo`	`graphyx: I also spend much of my time on the road working on a couple Open Source projects. I also have a personal project I neglect every once in a while...`
`18:41.52`	`herlo`	`so I do other stuff!`
`18:44.10`	`herlo`	`~urls`
`18:44.19`	`herlo`	`-urls`
`18:44.19`	`brac`	`[2006/09/01 18:25:57] <atoponce> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_programming_language`
`18:44.20`	`brac`	`[2006/09/01 18:20:18] <harleypig> http://www.teamhoyt.com/`
`18:44.20`	`brac`	`[2006/09/01 14:41:51] <rsimpkins> http://www.arrivaltel.com/`
`18:44.20`	`brac`	`[2006/09/01 14:23:46] <harleypig> http://qdb.us/64488`
`18:44.31`	`graphyx`	`Cool.`
`18:44.38`	`herlo`	`~url`
`18:44.40`	`ibot`	`i guess url is (Universal Resource Locator) This is what is used to give Web addresses for HTML, VRML, WAV and other files. It simply contains the Internet name of the machine containing the data and the path to the file. Much like the UNC, except specifically for the Internet. The address also includes what protocol should be used.`
`18:44.40`	`elg`	`huh`
`18:47.31`	`sjansen`	`herlo: I've got stuff I'd normally work on, but right now all I feel like doing is taking a nap... Which I don't think'd go over well.`
`18:48.01`	`goozbach`	`its about time... they are finally doing hot isles and cool isles in out data center`
`18:48.31`	`graphyx`	`goozbach: For new stuff or are they moving everything around?`
`18:48.50`	`goozbach`	`instead of exaust->input`
`18:48.58`	`graphyx`	`I know what you mean.`
`18:49.07`	`goozbach`	`graphyx: fliping an entire row`
`18:49.08`	`graphyx`	`The question is are they just going forward with that for new stuff?`
`18:49.26`	`graphyx`	`Oh so they are taking down an entire row of servers to reoriente them. wow..`
`18:50.12`	`goozbach`	`which means ~e0 panels total`
`18:50.16`	`mrpull`	`can you turn the racks?`
`18:50.29`	`mrpull`	`or do you have to rerack all the gear?`
`18:51.36`	`goozbach`	`unrack unbolt bolt certify rerack`
`18:52.20`	`graphyx`	`ouch..`
`18:52.23`	`graphyx`	`Thats gotta hurt.`
`18:52.35`	`levi`	`Yuck.`
`18:52.35`	`sjansen`	`s/unrack unbolt bolt certify rerack/1) lock goozbach in 2) watch him: unrack unbolt bolt certify rerack/`
`18:52.53`	`goozbach`	`s/unbolt/unbolt flip/`
`18:53.45`	`herlo`	`sjansen: probably not the best plan of action...`
`18:54.08`	`herlo`	`sjansen: napping, that is`
`18:54.38`	`sjansen`	`s/isles/aisles/`
`18:54.40`	`goozbach`	`it's gonna be a good thing cause i'm gonna be able to wire up a segment for our DRAC cards for all our servers`
`18:57.50`	`levi`	`goozbach: How much does a DRAC card cost?`
`18:58.42`	`goozbach`	`included for ~$30 on most new servers`
`18:59.01`	`levi`	`That's not too bad.`
`18:59.04`	`goozbach`	`and teh state buys servers maxxed out most of the time`
`18:59.27`	`levi`	`The Dell servers I've been playing with have onboard IPMI and no DRAC.`
`18:59.31`	`nick125_lappy`	`DRAC as in...IPMI-type stuff?`
`19:00.38`	`nick125_lappy`	`aah`
`19:00.50`	`graphyx`	`I think DRAC is a Direct Rack Access Card`
`19:01.12`	`graphyx`	`think of it as a remote serial console + power switch for racked systems.`
`19:01.17`	`levi`	`Dell Remote Access Card, I believe.`
`19:01.26`	`nick125_lappy`	`I thought it was Dell remote access card`
`19:01.28`	`nick125_lappy`	`levi: yeah`
`19:01.33`	`sjansen`	`like HP's Lights Out?`
`19:02.04`	`levi`	`Like that, yes.`
`19:02.22`	`nick125_lappy`	`HP's lights out has full KVM over IP, but, yes, its like it`
`19:03.14`	`graphyx`	`levi nick125 You are probably right.`
`19:04.02`	`levi`	`nick125_lappy: So does DRAC, I believe.`
`19:04.15`	`nick125_lappy`	`levi: I thought DRAC was serial console only`
`19:06.06`	`levi`	`nick125_lappy: You can continue to think that if you'd like, but you'll be wrong.`
`19:06.28`	`levi`	`At least for the latest DRAC cards.`
`19:07.10`	`nick125_lappy`	`I haven't really played with DRAC, so, I'm not sure!`
`19:08.24`	`levi`	`Well, just so you're not confused, I'll state clearly that DRAC 5 has KVM-over-IP support.`
`19:08.50`	`nick125_lappy`	`neat`
`19:09.36`	`*** join/#utah dilvie (n=chatzill@c-67-166-126-133.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)`
`19:11.23`	`*** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@ip-216-73-177-176.hqglobal.net)`
`19:14.35`	`nick125_lappy`	`levi: it looks like the DRAC-4 has KVM-over-IP as well`
`19:19.33`	`goozbach`	`very usefull cards`
`19:19.47`	`goozbach`	`esp if you install the support software in the os`
`19:20.05`	`Jayce^`	`depending on the version, some of them dropped support for telnet access...`
`19:20.12`	`Jayce^`	`which broke most scriptable access`
`19:22.05`	`graphyx`	`Why did they do that?`
`19:24.40`	`goozbach`	`well scriptable access is less important to me, because we have an openmanage server`
`19:24.52`	`goozbach`	`which allows batch actions`
`19:25.08`	`goozbach`	`e.g. "Turn all the nodes in cluser foo, on"`
`19:25.26`	`goozbach`	`very cool`
`19:26.15`	`*** join/#utah decriptor (n=decripto@65.73.255.18)`
`19:28.51`	`^Migs^`	`someone in another channel is talking about a friend who got pregnant, but aborted because she found out she was having a boy and wanted a girl. Now she's pregnant again.`
`19:28.53`	`^Migs^`	`That pisses me off.`
`19:29.18`	`dilvie`	`wow`
`19:29.26`	`^Migs^`	`This could end up as a murderous rampage`
`19:29.28`	`dilvie`	`that seems like a really stupid reason to abort.`
`19:29.30`	`goozbach`	`WHAT?`
`19:29.32`	`sjansen`	`It a brave new world we live in.`
`19:29.41`	`goozbach`	`wow`
`19:29.48`	`findlay`	`the world has always been brave and new`
`19:29.48`	`decriptor`	`I don't see how that isn't murder`
`19:29.49`	`^Migs^`	`I know. It's angering.`
`19:29.53`	`^Migs^`	`I don't either.`
`19:29.59`	`decriptor`	`premeditated murder at that`
`19:30.10`	`sjansen`	`findlay: read Brave New World`
`19:30.23`	`findlay`	`sjansen: not yet`
`19:30.38`	`goozbach`	`imagine that kid: "so mommy, did you ever have any other kids?"`
`19:30.44`	`dilvie`	`I agree, but once you start down that road, it's a slippery slope. There are valid reasons to abort, and there are a lot of scared teenage girls who would rather have a dangerous back-alley abortion than go through with a pregnancy`
`19:30.55`	`sjansen`	`For extra fun, read Fahrenheit 451, 1984, and Brave New World in the same week`
`19:30.55`	`goozbach`	`-- "nah, it wasn't the right sex so we killed it and tried again"`
`19:31.12`	`findlay`	`ouch`
`19:31.25`	`goozbach`	`sjansen: come on man, I work for the government, i can't be seen with such parafinalia`
`19:31.48`	`findlay`	`that's like reading Crime and Punsihment, and Atlas Shrugged in the same week`
`19:31.51`	`^Migs^`	`this isn't even a scared teenage girl. This is a grown woman in her 20s, who just doesn't want a boy.`
`19:32.02`	`goozbach`	`oh man`
`19:32.02`	`sjansen`	`mental note: send goozbach a copy of the Communist Manifesto for Christmas`
`19:32.10`	`goozbach`	`sjansen: no need`
`19:32.15`	`goozbach`	`I've got one already`
`19:32.18`	`^Migs^`	`according to this person, she even says "I hope it's a girl this time. The abortion was kind of uncomfortable."`
`19:32.29`	`goozbach`	`I'd like the anarcist's handbook however`
`19:32.38`	`sjansen`	`findlay: No it's not. Reading Crime & Punishment and Atlas Shrugged in the same week is super human.`
`19:32.45`	`goozbach`	`send it to my work address, wrapped in saran wrap`
`19:32.46`	`findlay`	`heh`
`19:33.01`	`goozbach`	`put the shipping label on the back`
`19:33.02`	`dilvie`	`^Migs^: yeah... IMO, there's a limit to the right to choose... but how do you prosecute people like her without causing unintended consequences?`
`19:33.18`	`dilvie`	`"kind of uncomfortable"`
`19:33.23`	`dilvie`	`stomach turns`
`19:34.21`	`dilvie`	`clearly, she doesn't consider it alive until it's born`
`19:34.30`	`^Migs^`	`ya think?`
`19:34.37`	`^Migs^`	`and the law is undecided on the issue`
`19:35.50`	`Tene`	`How far in her pregnancy, btw? Just curious.`
`19:36.00`	`^Migs^`	`I think she just barely got pregnant. She doesn't know the gender yet.`
`19:36.14`	`findlay`	`far enough to tell, which is pretty far`
`19:36.31`	`Tene`	`I was asking about the previous pregnancy.`
`19:36.34`	`decriptor`	`roughly 20 weeks is when you find out isn't it`
`19:36.39`	`^Migs^`	`I'll ask`
`19:37.02`	`Tene`	`What does the father think about this?`
`19:37.02`	`^Migs^`	`I think most doctors won't allow an abortion after 25 weeks or so`
`19:37.09`	`^Migs^`	`she was 18 weeks along in her other pregnancy`
`19:37.16`	`dilvie`	`medical professionals used to consider the baby "alive" when it takes its first breath`
`19:37.25`	`mrpull`	`decriptor: you can find out much earlier... 17 weeks isn't uncommon`
`19:37.27`	`^Migs^`	`and she had a miscarriage before that one on Christmas morning. So now she tells people that she just miscarried this other baby she aborted.`
`19:37.31`	`dilvie`	`if a baby never breaths on its own, it's never alive`
`19:37.39`	`dilvie`	`sounds like she has a similar view`
`19:37.53`	`Tene`	`That's disturbing to me.`
`19:38.18`	`dilvie`	`I'm more inclined to say if it has a heart beat and a brain, it's alive.`
`19:38.21`	`Tene`	`migs: does the father have an opinion on it?`
`19:38.25`	`^Migs^`	`well, it's believable. Some women are inclined to miscarry.`
`19:38.26`	`decriptor`	`my wife's doctor has always been around 20 that's why I put out that date, but I can see it happening before that easily. I don't know what week they start to develop though/when an ultrasound would be able to see anything`
`19:38.28`	`^Migs^`	`Apparently, he supports it.`
`19:39.21`	`decriptor`	`that or he is clueless`
`19:39.22`	`dilvie`	`I would have a very hard time supporting my wife if she decided she wanted an abortion`
`19:39.26`	`sjansen`	`~/o Whistling, whistling, whistling in the dark o/~`
`19:39.28`	`ibot`	`ACTION sings with sjansen`
`19:39.32`	`decriptor`	`which might make them a good match`
`19:39.59`	`Tene`	`http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/wrtk/develop/week18.shtm`
`19:40.03`	`^Migs^`	`oh, shes' not even married apparently`
`19:40.05`	`^Migs^`	`it's her fiance`
`19:40.10`	`^Migs^`	`if she aborts again, it would be a shame if the news media caught wind of this`
`19:40.38`	`^Migs^`	`some people shouldn't be allowed to breed`
`19:40.46`	`^Migs^`	`the government should issue breeding permits`
`19:40.55`	`sjansen`	`Wow. I co-worker just filled up his car for $2.12/gallon in IL... I thought those days were gone forever.`
`19:40.58`	`dilvie`	`I think it would be a disaster for the news media to catch wind of something like that.`
`19:41.08`	`graphyx`	`That is reminiscent of a couple I knew who gave up their kid for adoption.`
`19:41.13`	`dilvie`	`That's all we need is to throw some gassoline on the already heated abortion debate.`
`19:41.26`	`graphyx`	`and then got pregnant against 6 months later without any aparent change in lifestyle/income.`
`19:41.27`	`^Migs^`	`see, now why can't she just give the kid up for adoption if she doesn't want it so badly?`
`19:41.28`	`findlay`	`~flame debate`
`19:41.29`	`ibot`	`debate sux0rz d00d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@@!!!!!!!11`
`19:41.31`	`decriptor`	`matches anyone`
`19:41.38`	`mrpull`	`sjansen: i payed 2.20/gal in Indy a couple weeks back`
`19:41.45`	`dilvie`	`gasoline, rather`
`19:41.50`	`mrpull`	`and came home to 2.75ish`
`19:41.59`	`graphyx`	`its at 2.05/gal here`
`19:42.03`	`findlay`	`wow`
`19:42.10`	`findlay`	`lucky`
`19:42.14`	`graphyx`	`Arkansas`
`19:42.18`	`findlay`	`graphyx: can you DCC me some?`
`19:42.21`	`graphyx`	`You guys have better internet.`
`19:42.21`	`dilvie`	`^Migs^: I'm with you there, but she probably doesn't want to endure the discomfort and pain of pregnancy and birth for a child she doesn't intend to keep.`
`19:42.43`	`^Migs^`	`then SHE should adopt a girl`
`19:42.52`	`findlay`	`you can always pack your car with packets`
`19:42.55`	`graphyx`	`A couple who wanted a child would be happy to pay for the epidural in exchange the for the child I am sure.`
`19:43.09`	`^Migs^`	`no kidding`
`19:43.16`	`sjansen`	`And I've often been told that you only can do`
`19:43.16`	`sjansen`	`What you know how to do well`
`19:43.16`	`sjansen`	`And that's be you,`
`19:43.16`	`sjansen`	`Be what you're like,`
`19:43.17`	`sjansen`	`Be like yourself`
`19:43.48`	`graphyx`	`So now I'm having a wonderful time, but I'd rather be whistling in the dark..`
`19:43.58`	`Tene`	`whistling in the dark`
`19:44.10`	`graphyx`	`~sing ahh ahh ahhh ahhh..`
`19:44.15`	`dilvie`	`I believe my little sister considered abortion when she got pregnant by accident. I strongly encouraged her to look at other options. She ended up giving the baby up for adoption, instead, and I think she's glad she did. She found an open adoption situation, and she has pictures from the adoptive parents, and she has been able to hang out with them periodically and see her son.`
`19:44.31`	`dilvie`	`It's actually a pretty cool situation, compared to how things could have turned out.`
`19:44.39`	`^Migs^`	`wtf, this lady already has a son`
`19:44.55`	`^Migs^`	`and wouldn't mind having another son after she has a girl`
`19:44.59`	`Jayce^`	`doctors attempted to convince my mom to abort... said I'd be dangerous (no joke)`
`19:45.00`	`^Migs^`	`!(#&$!^#@(!#$!$)!#$&(!#(^(!)#$)(&!(*#)$`
`19:45.09`	`Jayce^`	`said neither of us would survive`
`19:45.16`	`^Migs^`	`yet your mom decided to unleash a horror upon the world`
`19:45.18`	`graphyx`	`Jayce^: they were right. You are dangerous.`
`19:45.18`	`^Migs^`	`oh`
`19:45.36`	`^Migs^`	`I was adopted. Bio-mom was a rape victim, so I'm glad she didn't abort.`
`19:45.40`	`graphyx`	`Jayce^: but of course we are glad you're here.`
`19:46.30`	`graphyx`	`feelings in support or against?`
`19:46.53`	`^Migs^`	`I think rape victims who become pregnant should be entitled to do whatever they want to, abort or give up for adoption, but all the same I'm glad my mom didn't`
`19:46.55`	`Jayce^`	`cautious... the term is correct, but I can see how it could be abused, and obviously, where I see doctors can be wrong`
`19:47.27`	`*** part/#utah herlo (n=herlo@ip-216-73-177-176.hqglobal.net)`
`19:47.42`	`graphyx`	`Just to play the devil's advocate, if both you and your mom had died, it is possible that your Dad would have regreted the decision to not abort..`
`19:51.07`	`sjansen`	`Not to put to fine a point on it`
`19:51.12`	`sjansen`	`Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet`
`19:51.20`	`sjansen`	`Build a little bird house in your soul`
`19:52.30`	`graphyx`	`"why is the world in love again? Why are we marching hand in hand? "`
`19:52.41`	`billfur`	`IMO its an incredibley dangerous road to go down where you don't have control over your own body to that extent, regardless of your personal feelings on the matter.`
`19:53.07`	`Tene`	`mrpull: are you saying you can find out at 17 weeks of the pregnancy or fetal age?`
`19:53.29`	`graphyx`	`With DNA testing you can find out at inception.`
`19:54.04`	`graphyx`	`If they are aborting due to wrong gender, they should have used science to pick the gender int eh first place rather than abort.`
`19:54.20`	`billfur`	`graphyx, agreed. Its not even that expensive anymore is it?`
`19:54.33`	`graphyx`	`which dna testing or picking gender?`
`19:54.36`	`graphyx`	`I am not familar with either.`
`19:54.38`	`billfur`	`picking gender`
`19:54.46`	`graphyx`	`I've always taken what I was given.`
`19:54.48`	`graphyx`	`4 kids so far.`
`19:54.55`	`graphyx`	`And I wouldn't give any of them back.`
`19:55.01`	`graphyx`	`even though the wife only wanted boys.`
`19:55.05`	`graphyx`	`and we got a girl first.`
`19:56.28`	`^Migs^`	`we have two girls`
`19:56.36`	`^Migs^`	`I wanted girls originally, but now I'm thinking our next child should be a boy`
`19:56.55`	`Jayce^`	`one of each, so I'm going to name the upcoming one tie breaker`
`19:57.33`	`graphyx`	`how soon Jayce^?`
`19:57.35`	`decriptor`	`I'll be there before long have the boy the girl coming soon and then the tie breaker`
`19:57.36`	`sjansen`	`Be different, try for a squid instead.`
`19:57.43`	`Jayce^`	`graphyx, re advocate. Yes, that was the decision they made together, but it was very hard given the doctors opinions at the time... and the pressure they put on`
`19:57.43`	`graphyx`	`Harleypig has the most kids in the channel.`
`19:57.58`	`Jayce^`	`graphyx, only at 10 weeks atm`
`19:58.12`	`graphyx`	`fun.`
`19:58.13`	`Jayce^`	`graphyx, haleypig has as many as the rest of the channel`
`19:58.19`	`graphyx`	`Anyone have more than 7 kids?`
`19:58.26`	`graphyx`	`That's not true.`
`19:58.35`	`graphyx`	`I have 4 and herlo has at least 1 and you have 2.`
`19:58.44`	`Jayce^`	`graphyx, just have to give harley a hard time`
`19:58.44`	`graphyx`	`So thats at least 7 right there.`
`19:58.49`	`sjansen`	`~define hyperbole`
`19:58.58`	`ibot`	`Use ~dict for definitions.`
`19:58.59`	`graphyx`	`of course.`
`19:59.09`	`sjansen`	`~dict hyperbole`
`19:59.27`	`graphyx`	`WHOA!! sjansen your back!!! I just realized it.`
`19:59.30`	`graphyx`	`where did you go?`
`19:59.44`	`sjansen`	`ibot: What?! You're not going to tell us the rest? Cruel, man, cruel.`
`19:59.58`	`redbeard1`	`what the... when did sjansen come in here?`
`20:00.24`	`SB1-Work`	`I'm still confused as to why/when he "left"`
`20:00.26`	`sjansen`	`~seen sjansen`
`20:00.28`	`ibot`	`sjansen is currently on #utah (2h 7m 4s). Has said a total of 45 messages. Is idling for 2s, last said: '~seen sjansen'.`
`20:01.05`	`graphyx`	`if you've said something in the past 5 seconds, can you really be considered idle?`
`20:01.39`	`SB1-Work`	`Yes, because you're not actively saying something`
`20:01.47`	`sjansen`	`I'd argue if you've said something in IRC in the last 5 seconds you're probably quite idle.`
`20:02.06`	`graphyx`	`sjansen: You would know.`
`20:02.32`	`goozbach`	`idle me then`
`20:02.41`	`SB1-Work`	`So uh, why is everyone surprised that he's here? I'm still wondering when he left and for what`
`20:02.42`	`goozbach`	`stupid pointless ocrap meetings`
`20:02.43`	`graphyx`	`~idle goozbach`
`20:03.16`	`maquis`	`~lart sjansen`
`20:03.17`	`goozbach`	`SB1-Work: he was sjansen-napped`
`20:03.42`	`SB1-Work`	`ahh`
`20:04.01`	`*** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@70.103.185.250)`
`20:04.03`	`goozbach`	`my crack team of squirel mercinaries were able to free him`
`20:04.22`	`sjansen`	`SB1-Work: The world revolves around me. You just haven't felt my gravity long enough to realize it yet.`
`20:05.40`	`goozbach`	`seeing as the channel wasn't too keen on donating to the "liberate sjansen" fund`
`20:05.41`	`SB1-Work`	`sjansen, clearly.. either you must be pretty lightweight, or I'm just heavy though`
`20:05.57`	`goozbach`	`I had to foot the bill myself`
`20:06.12`	`SB1-Work`	`Ohh, okay, lol`
`20:06.17`	`SB1-Work`	`Now it makes sense what happened, heh`
`20:06.17`	`goozbach`	`therefore the only mercs I could afford were squrriels`
`20:06.40`	`goozbach`	`luckily the sjansen-nappers were terriblly afraid of fur.`
`20:06.43`	`graphyx`	`since they work for peanuts, right?`
`20:06.52`	`goozbach`	`graphyx: acorns actually`
`20:06.58`	`goozbach`	`but nuts nonetheless`
`20:07.07`	`graphyx`	`I think squirells would take peanuts`
`20:07.24`	`sjansen`	`squirels will take almost anything if you turn your back`
`20:07.48`	`goozbach`	`they do, however the team which would have worked for peanuts, didn't have the correct skillset`
`20:07.48`	`graphyx`	`Two peanuts were walking through central park at night. One was assalted.`
`20:07.53`	`graphyx`	`The other was honey roasted.`
`20:07.58`	`sjansen`	`Ever seen a caffeinated squirel?`
`20:08.47`	`graphyx`	`How do you get the caffeine in them?`
`20:08.47`	`goozbach`	`sjansen: quite a sight, no?`
`20:08.56`	`graphyx`	`cups of mountain dew?`
`20:08.56`	`goozbach`	`hide mt dew in acorns`
`20:09.12`	`goozbach`	`it's how I got the worked up for the assualt`
`20:09.14`	`graphyx`	`Caffeine pills?`
`20:09.37`	`sjansen`	`Have you ever seen a llama wearing pajamas`
`20:09.37`	`sjansen`	`Down by the bay`
`20:09.54`	`graphyx`	`Have you ever seen a house fly?`
`20:09.58`	`graphyx`	`Heard a rubber band?`
`20:10.16`	`goozbach`	`I saw a llama in my pajamas last night...`
`20:10.23`	`goozbach`	`how he got into them I'll never know`
`20:11.38`	`levi`	`graphyx: Well, quite a few people in Utah have heard Ryan Shupe and the Rubber Band.`
`20:13.12`	`goozbach`	`chapstick`
`20:13.21`	`sjansen`	`cheese`
`20:13.22`	`goozbach`	`isn't that a shupe and RB hit?`
`20:14.46`	`^Migs^`	`didn't he go to Ogden High?`
`20:16.39`	`levi`	`All I know about them is the name.`
`20:17.03`	`^Migs^`	`I'd have to check my yearbook to be sure. Pretty certain he did, though`
`20:37.10`	`SB1-Work`	`Who is it here that wrote a book on Asterik?`
`20:40.18`	`sjansen`	`jsmith`
`20:41.33`	`SB1-Work`	`Who isn't here. Awesome.`
`20:42.27`	`graphyx`	`SB1-Work: what is your questin?`
`20:42.47`	`SB1-Work`	`I'm looking at possibly dropping VoIP into this small business`
`20:42.55`	`SB1-Work`	`Problem is, that's about all I know on the matter :)`
`20:43.08`	`graphyx`	`asterisk would probably do the trick.`
`20:43.10`	`graphyx`	`next question?`
`20:43.17`	`*** join/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@pollux.northsky.com)`
`20:43.29`	`mrpull`	`SB1-Work: shouldn't you finish your email cluster first?`
`20:43.37`	`SB1-Work`	`Protocols, hardware, recommended phones, NAT traversal, the list goes on`
`20:43.52`	`*** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-24-10-162-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)`
`20:43.58`	`graphyx`	`Go get his book.`
`20:44.01`	`SB1-Work`	`mrpull, in theory. Good luck getting me to actually complete one project frmo start to finish without starting another though ;)`
`20:44.09`	`graphyx`	`Orielly has it as a downloadable pdf.`
`20:44.15`	`SB1-Work`	`graphyx, name of book?`
`20:44.20`	`harleypig`	`Does anyone know of a decent, yet easy to install web based cvs admin package? One that will allow people to update files from a browser?`
`20:44.22`	`graphyx`	`Asterisk`
`20:44.48`	`graphyx`	`asterisk: the future of telephon`
`20:44.51`	`graphyx`	`telephony`
`20:45.05`	`graphyx`	`http://voipspeak.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=2`
`20:45.15`	`graphyx`	`download page`
`20:45.35`	`SB1-Work`	`Ha, there it is`
`20:45.47`	`SB1-Work`	`I was looking on the publisher's page.. only found links to buy`
`20:45.47`	`graphyx`	`yep.`
`20:45.48`	`SB1-Work`	`Was about to ask, thanks`
`20:46.58`	`graphyx`	`I think if you buy the book, he makes about .60$ usd.`
`20:47.05`	`SB1-Work`	`lol, ouch`
`20:47.11`	`graphyx`	`so individually it doesn't really matter than much.`
`20:47.13`	`findlay`	`dude`
`20:47.32`	`findlay`	`this kid is watching TV at a volume loud enough that I can hear it through the wall`
`20:47.47`	`graphyx`	`I am sure he will make tons more on the fact that he wrote the book, than he has made on the book itself.`
`20:48.09`	`graphyx`	`I mean, who expects a book on asterisk to become a best seller any time soon..`
`20:48.20`	`SB1-Work`	`heh, impressive`
`20:48.31`	`findlay`	`a book on asterisk? Doesn't that mean it's about everything?`
`20:48.45`	`findlay`	`at least everything in the current directory`
`20:49.41`	`graphyx`	`findlay: It doesn't get the stuff that starts with . though.`
`20:49.55`	`goozbach`	`groan factor: .324 andy dick jokes`
`20:50.36`	`tuxd00d`	`findlay: narf`
`20:50.53`	`tuxd00d`	`findlay: (pinky from pinky and the brain`
`20:51.43`	`harleypig`	`I'm looking for a basic web based cvs project handling tool that doesn't require the repository to be on the same server as the tool (i.e., -d :ext:... ) anyone know of anything like this?`
`20:52.40`	`findlay`	`tuxd00d: no, Pinkey, the hypercapcitors are installed in the flux inductor, not the garbage compactor`
`20:52.57`	`tuxd00d`	`absolutely`
`20:53.21`	`*** join/#utah graphy1 (n=graphyx@205.208.245.105)`
`20:53.40`	`findlay`	`harleypig: I'm sure you could script something together`
`20:55.04`	`harleypig`	`findlay: I'm working on it, but I'd sure like to have something that's a little more done.`
`20:55.16`	`*** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@000-242-432.area3.spcsdns.net)`
`20:55.19`	`harleypig`	`I don't like reinventing the wheel`
`20:55.52`	`findlay`	`harleypig: but if nobody reinvented the wheel we wouldn't have such daring innovations like rims and spinners (-:`
`20:56.14`	`graphy1`	`findlay: That was "Pimp my wheel" not reinvent it.`
`20:57.21`	`findlay`	`ideed`
`20:57.24`	`levi`	`Hmm, there's a new Google Groups beta.`
`20:57.28`	`findlay`	`s/i/in/gc`
`20:57.31`	`findlay`	`s/i/in/g`
`20:57.41`	`jsmith`	`levi: Looks kind of nice`
`20:57.46`	`findlay`	`from one beta to another`
`20:57.55`	`graphy1`	`you did a replace on a replace syntax? interesting...`
`20:58.04`	`graphy1`	`I don't think ibot is recursive.`
`20:58.10`	`graphy1`	`ibot, are you recursive?`
`20:58.21`	`findlay`	`graphy1: because of the /c flag invalidated the directive`
`20:58.37`	`levi`	`They need that little thread widget for gmail.`
`20:58.43`	`findlay`	`switch all the i's in this sentence with i`
`20:58.50`	`findlay`	`s/i/j/g`
`20:58.50`	`graphy1`	`ibot, why are you reclusive?`
`20:58.53`	`ibot`	`graphy1: what are you talking about?`
`20:59.11`	`findlay`	`anyway, ask tensai. It's his patch`
`20:59.30`	`graphy1`	`I'm not really caring.`
`20:59.32`	`graphy1`	`Just chatting.`
`20:59.39`	`findlay`	`~care graphy1`
`20:59.43`	`findlay`	`~make graphy1 care`
`20:59.45`	`ibot`	make: *** No rule to make target `graphy1 care'. Stop.
`20:59.54`	`graphy1`	`~sudo make graphy1 care`
`21:00.37`	`findlay`	`levi: I'm glad they brought back the traditional usenet structure`
`21:01.09`	`findlay`	`for a while it was impossible to look at all groups in, say, comp.lang`
`21:04.29`	`maquis`	`comp.lang.phpvperl.flamewar`
`21:04.33`	`maquis`	`oh wait... that's plug`
`21:04.40`	`graphyx`	`lol`
`21:05.01`	`maquis`	`i dunno... maybe it should be comp.lang.flamewar.phpvperl, actually`
`21:05.08`	`maquis`	`that would be more logical`
`21:05.24`	`tensai`	`findlay: I didn't write the s/// patch. I wrote onjoin.`
`21:05.38`	`levi`	`Heh, silly syntax discussion on comp.lang.ruby`
`21:05.41`	`maquis`	`~praise tensai`
`21:05.42`	`ibot`	`All hail tensai!`
`21:05.48`	`maquis`	`onjoin rocks`
`21:07.55`	`tensai`	`~lart qwest "standards"`
`21:09.52`	`tensai`	`I went to all the effort of wiring up 28 T1s and Qwest went and wired them backwards. now I have to redo it.`
`21:10.14`	`jsmith`	`tensai: Figures.`
`21:10.14`	`findlay`	`tensai: who wrote the s/// patch?`
`21:13.01`	`tensai`	`findlay: as far as I know, you did`
`21:14.37`	`jsmith`	`It was my idea, but I didn't write the patch`
`21:14.37`	`jsmith`	`I thought maybe TimRiker wrote it.`
`21:14.37`	`jsmith`	`Or maybe it was elg -- who knows...`
`21:14.47`	`jsmith`	`Someone with more l33t coding skills than me`
`21:17.52`	`tensai`	`jsmith: the worst part is, this ain't just a 66 or 110 block. I have to wire wrap these puppies. somebody put me out of my misery.`
`21:18.23`	`jsmith`	`tensai: Did they just cross the pair?`
`21:18.33`	`jsmith`	`s/pair/two pair/`
`21:18.46`	`tensai`	`jsmith: yup`
`21:19.23`	`jsmith`	`tensai: I have just the thing, but I don't know where you can buy them... it's an RJ-45 male-to-female adapter with a T1 cross inside.`
`21:19.39`	`jsmith`	`s/them/them online.`
`21:19.45`	`*** join/#utah nick125_ (n=upirc@m110e36d0.tmodns.net)`
`21:20.06`	`tensai`	`jsmith: yeah, or I could use crossover cables instead of straight through, but then it just gets messy`
`21:20.18`	`jsmith`	`tensai: That's why these things are nice.`
`21:27.40`	`harleypig`	`Full Metal Jacket`
`21:28.25`	`mheath`	`~lart harleypig`
`21:28.33`	`mheath`	`~it harleypig`
`21:28.35`	`ibot`	`So we want to be stupid, right, harleypig ? Fine, pushups, right now. OK, side straddle hops, right now. OK, run in place, right now. I didn't say stop!`
`21:29.00`	`^Migs^`	`<Biff> Google is reported to be in talks to buy popular video-sharing website YouTube for $1.6bn (£856m).`
`21:29.33`	`scott`	`they would be stupid to`
`21:30.18`	`mheath`	`scott: yeah. Just think how stupid it would be if they got even crazier ideas, like offering e-mail service, or running an IM network.`
`21:30.25`	`mheath`	`;-)`
`21:30.35`	`tensai`	`look how well flickr is doing for yahoo`
`21:30.43`	`findlay`	`google, they think they can take over the world`
`21:30.47`	`scott`	`youtube has been losing money LIKE CRAZY`
`21:30.51`	`scott`	`millions a month`
`21:31.05`	`scott`	`google already has their essential service`
`21:31.12`	`mheath`	`scott: Google won't run it independently`
`21:31.23`	`mheath`	`They'll probably just merge all the movies over to Google Video`
`21:31.43`	`scott`	`so they're paying 1billion to someone who doesn't even own the copyright?`
`21:31.43`	`mheath`	`Their database will be much larger, and they'll have knocked out the biggest competition to google video`
`21:36.16`	`tensai`	`the they get the legal liability to all the infringing video for free`
`21:49.27`	`*** join/#utah nick125_ (n=upirc@atarack/staff/nick125)`
`21:54.15`	`*** part/#utah ^Migs^ (n=Migs@205.122.50.21)`
`21:55.12`	`*** join/#utah Supaplex (n=supaplex@shell.aros.net)`
`22:10.50`	`amcnabb`	`This is really scary.`
`22:11.08`	`amcnabb`	`I used to look at the Ig Nobel Prize nominations and laugh about how stupid the projects were.`
`22:11.25`	`amcnabb`	`Now I look at them and say, "Wow. That's a cool idea. I'd like to read that paper."`
`22:11.56`	`mrpull`	`amcnabb: are new ones out?`
`22:12.08`	`mrpull`	`i liked the swimming in syrup paper from the past`
`22:12.33`	`amcnabb`	`mrpull, that's cool`
`22:12.41`	`amcnabb`	`http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/06/ig_nobel_awards/`
`22:12.45`	`mrpull`	`i hate syrup`
`22:12.51`	`mrpull`	`i don't like sticky things`
`22:13.09`	`mrpull`	`the thought of swimming in it gives me the creeps.`
`22:16.36`	`amcnabb`	`It would be worth a try, I think.`
`22:17.44`	`tuxd00d`	`'calculating the number of photographs you must take to (almost) ensure that nobody in a group photo will have their eyes closed" (Mathematics award' What, people have too much time!`
`22:18.06`	`tuxd00d`	`'almost' ensure?`
`22:18.12`	`tuxd00d`	`gee wiz`
`22:18.34`	`*** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker)`
`22:18.35`	`*** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ`
`22:20.39`	`levi`	`amcnabb: One more step towards ivory tower academia!`
`22:20.52`	`*** join/#utah fungus_ (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net)`
`22:21.22`	`amcnabb`	`tuxd00d, you can never 'completely' ensure anything`
`22:21.37`	`tuxd00d`	`you can statically`
`22:21.48`	`tuxd00d`	`always a margin of error`
`22:21.48`	`amcnabb`	`How do you define 'completely'?`
`22:22.46`	`amcnabb`	`If you take enough pictures, the probability of taking a good picture will approach 1, but it will never reach it.`
`22:23.14`	`amcnabb`	`Even with 10**100 pictures, there's still some chance you'll have all bad pictures.`
`22:23.29`	`amcnabb`	`So you can only "almost" ensure a good picture.`
`22:23.41`	`amcnabb`	`(as bad as that wording is)`
`22:23.55`	`spr`	`Of course if you have 10**100 pictures that are bad, you should just hire a different photographer`
`22:24.03`	`amcnabb`	`Or different subjects.`
`22:24.20`	`amcnabb`	`Sometimes you don't have much to work with. :)`
`22:26.51`	`*** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@71-219-8-157.slkc.qwest.net)`
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`22:38.17`	`*** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net)`
`22:43.22`	`mrpull`	`oh. I read about the hiccups/digital rectal massage thing this morning. Didn't know it was a ig nobel winner.`
`22:43.35`	`mrpull`	`i hate the hiccups, but not that bad`
`22:55.23`	`tensai`	`if it isn't one thing, it's another`
`22:55.42`	`tensai`	`now that I've got all the circuits wired right I discover that one of my T1 ports is bad :(`
`22:56.03`	`tensai`	`won't even acknowledge a loopback plug, let alone the live circuit. how rude.`
`22:56.43`	`*** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)`
`22:58.33`	`*** join/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13)`
`23:19.20`	`dilvie`	`http://www.dilvie.com/reality/ Read from Part I to Part V.`
`23:19.48`	`dilvie`	`About silly American sentimental attitudes related to the war in Iraq.`
`23:20.34`	`*** part/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@pollux.northsky.com)`
`23:22.11`	`*** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@71-219-8-157.slkc.qwest.net)`
`23:24.37`	`mheath`	`dilvie: No, I don't think I will. But thank you.`
`23:25.46`	`dilvie`	`mheath: but there's a nice poem in Part I you might enjoy. ;)`
`23:28.22`	`levi`	`mheath: You would probably like the poem.`
`23:29.59`	`elg`	`heh`
`23:30.30`	`dilvie`	`It's a nice poem, even though it is misguided, sentimental, and unrealistic.`
`23:30.36`	`mheath`	`Yes, but I also probably don't have a web browser.`
`23:30.43`	`dilvie`	`I empathize with the author.`
`23:31.13`	`levi`	`It's exactly the kind of poem I don't like.`
`23:31.51`	`levi`	`I don't like poems like that even when I agree with the sentiment, in general.`
`23:35.21`	`elg`	`ditto`
`23:35.30`	`elg`	`i read 3 paragraphs of it and knew enough`
`23:36.33`	`elg`	`whether it's about soldiers, firefighters, policement, lifeguards, popes, missionaries, dogcatchers, movie producers, open source hackers, or pest control guys`
`23:36.41`	`elg`	`it's all the same drivel`
`23:41.08`	`dilvie`	`hehe`
`23:48.37`	`*** part/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13)`
`23:49.52`	`mheath`	`I realized today the US government has me brainwashed`
`23:49.56`	`mheath`	`Started as a host today at applebees`
`23:50.00`	`mheath`	`And I'm standing out front, by the door`
`23:50.16`	`mheath`	`Because our proximity to Hill AFB, we frequently get some air force poeple in there for lunch`
`23:51.02`	`mheath`	`Today, several officers walked in...and I just reflexively popped to the position of attention and said "Attention on.." fairly loud before I realized what I was doing.`
`23:51.14`	`mheath`	`Everyone (including them -.-) thought I was rather weird.`
`23:51.35`	`*** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@71-219-8-157.slkc.qwest.net)`
`23:58.17`	`*** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.utahbroadband.com)`

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