| 00:46.52 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@71-219-12-3.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 01:11.39 | goozbach | blame canada |
| 01:12.18 | emcnabb | -lart elg |
| 01:16.26 | *** join/#utah Sargun (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) |
| 01:18.40 | levi_home | Hmm, I need an issue to write a congressman about. |
| 01:21.06 | macnewbold | pete ashdown |
| 01:21.14 | macnewbold | or internet freedom/fairness |
| 01:21.28 | macnewbold | or about getting orrin to retire |
| 01:22.08 | levi_home | Heh. I could write Orrin asking him to retire. |
| 01:22.17 | levi_home | This is for a class, though. |
| 01:22.59 | levi_home | Apparently Matheson is already pro-net neutrality. |
| 01:24.52 | emcnabb | didn't Hatch propose a new patent reform bill recently? |
| 01:25.17 | emcnabb | http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595-6102493.html |
| 01:25.28 | brac | [Senators offer sweeping patent system changes | Tech News on ZDNet] |
| 01:29.16 | levi_home | Maybe I'll write in opposition of laws mandating DRM. |
| 01:43.53 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:44.37 | emcnabb | maybe you should write Orrin and protest the music he writes |
| 02:09.49 | *** join/#utah nick125_lappy (n=nick@dsl093-220-003.abq1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 02:09.53 | *** join/#utah nick125 (n=nick@atarack/staff/nick125) |
| 02:10.00 | levi_home | I wrote to Bennett about DRM in general, and specifically the broadcast/audio flags and the PERFORM act. |
| 02:23.11 | levi_home | Gah, UVSC's online registration system is TOTALLY WORTHLESS to me. |
| 02:23.51 | levi_home | It strictly reinforces prerequisites, yet it doesn't have enough information in it to realize that I meet all the prerequisites. |
| 02:23.52 | *** join/#utah nick125_ (n=nick@dsl093-220-003.abq1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 02:24.03 | levi_home | s/reinforces/enforces/ |
| 02:25.31 | *** join/#utah nick125_1appy (n=nick@dsl093-220-003.abq1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 02:51.44 | findlay | ~weird |
| 02:51.47 | ibot | Weird factor is currently 10%, and stable. |
| 02:52.33 | findlay | ibot: why do people try to deceive themselves by teaching you responses that seem to brtray an inner intelligence? |
| 02:52.43 | levi_home | ~weird |
| 02:52.44 | ibot | Weird factor is currently 10%, and stable. |
| 02:53.27 | findlay | ibot: when in reality you're just a pile of perl code |
| 02:54.04 | findlay | why am I trying to reason with ibot in an intelligent way when I know it's going to end in tragedy? |
| 02:54.11 | findlay | why am I talking to myself? |
| 02:55.54 | levi_home | Because you like to? |
| 02:57.41 | nick125_1appy | haha |
| 02:58.41 | findlay | what are these nicks that look as if people are somehow logically connected to random strings of characters? |
| 02:58.55 | maquis | http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/extreme-makeover-beirut-edition.html |
| 02:58.57 | brac | [Drinking From Home: Extreme Makeover - Beirut Edition] |
| 02:59.55 | findlay | why not mediocre makeover, or weak makeover? |
| 03:00.14 | levi_home | findlay: I think a statistical analysis of the strings of characters would show that they are not random at all! |
| 03:02.04 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@208.187.198.66) |
| 03:03.35 | findlay | levi_home: but 'random strings of characters' sounds more cliche than 'not random at all' |
| 03:04.11 | findlay | how about 'the good enough makeover' |
| 03:22.10 | findlay | tomorrow I'm starting on Mozart's Italian operas by course |
| 03:22.47 | findlay | s/that/that that/ |
| 03:23.20 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog@zeus.thebigdog.biz) |
| 03:25.37 | findlay | is using nmap unethical? |
| 03:26.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Depends on how you're using it :) |
| 03:28.58 | findlay | see? |
| 03:29.12 | findlay | it's not unethical for educational purposes |
| 03:29.16 | findlay | ScytheBlade1 even says so |
| 03:29.32 | nick125_1appy | yeah, it really depends on usage |
| 03:30.12 | findlay | I've used it before on a dhcp nat to discover the host I needed to ssh to |
| 03:31.02 | findlay | of course nmap won't tell you all you need to know as far as that goes (: |
| 03:31.20 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:34.09 | ScytheBlade1 | For education |
| 03:34.12 | ScytheBlade1 | It's completly ethical |
| 03:35.20 | nick125_1appy | also, if you have authorization to scan the network, its ethical |
| 03:35.25 | nick125_1appy | for security testing, etc |
| 03:35.30 | ScytheBlade1 | It might be invaluable for teaching networking :P |
| 03:35.47 | nick125_1appy | there are valid uses for nmap |
| 03:38.34 | findlay | but (*drops to a whisper*) there are unethical uses as well |
| 03:38.44 | ScytheBlade1 | Gasp shock |
| 03:39.48 | findlay | I've been saving these netbios packets over the years and one day I'm going to ram them back into the computers that spewed them |
| 03:40.10 | findlay | old, rotten, moldy packets |
| 03:40.37 | ScytheBlade1 | rofl |
| 03:42.25 | *** join/#utah amped3 (n=amped3@67-41-229-253.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 03:43.19 | mheath | I was always of the opinion that the only ethical use of nmap is for mapping your own network. |
| 03:44.05 | ScytheBlade1 | I've had numerous occurances of using nmap to scan other people's networksin |
| 03:44.06 | ScytheBlade1 | *networks |
| 03:44.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Where it's only helped |
| 03:44.15 | mheath | Or, obviously, networks that you have specific permission to scan their networks with nmap. |
| 03:44.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Some things can only be be done from the outside |
| 03:45.04 | mheath | "Technology so advanced it actually has US Patent Pending." |
| 03:45.07 | bigdog_ut | i scan networks that scan me...:) |
| 03:45.21 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 03:45.52 | bigdog_ut | nmap and ethereal are very good tools for networks |
| 03:46.11 | bigdog_ut | and let us not forget nessus |
| 03:46.17 | bigdog_ut | a great tool as well |
| 03:48.32 | bigdog_ut | they are all great security and networking tools |
| 03:50.16 | nick125_1appy | bigdog_ut: you mean wireshark? |
| 03:50.50 | bigdog_ut | did ethereal change its name? |
| 03:50.54 | nick125_1appy | I think so |
| 03:51.38 | bigdog_ut | oh they did the commercial thingy |
| 03:51.51 | nick125_1appy | "http://wireshark.org/faq.html#q1.2 |
| 03:51.53 | brac | [Wireshark: Frequently Asked Questions] |
| 03:51.53 | nick125_1appy | er |
| 03:51.57 | nick125_1appy | remove the " |
| 03:53.14 | bigdog_ut | oh |
| 04:05.58 | *** part/#utah amped3 (n=amped3@67-41-229-253.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 04:13.32 | maquis | topo of the day: "adhores" |
| 04:13.37 | maquis | er |
| 04:13.38 | maquis | typo |
| 04:14.03 | maquis | from the context, i can tell that they either meant "adores" or "abhors", but i can't figure out which one |
| 04:14.18 | levi_home | Not adwhores? |
| 04:14.38 | maquis | levi_home: pretty sure it's not that one |
| 04:34.27 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 04:41.11 | mheath | mm, my run tonight felt GOOD! |
| 05:00.51 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog@zeus.thebigdog.biz) |
| 05:25.24 | *** join/#utah thaabit (n=thaabit@65-100-217-102.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 05:25.43 | thaabit | hello |
| 05:25.48 | thaabit | do i have voice? |
| 05:26.04 | bigdog_ut | no |
| 05:27.22 | thaabit | so, does anyone know why firefox wouldn't work on a default install of fc5? konquerer pulls up pages fine, but ff just times out. connection settings are for a direction connection to the internet |
| 05:32.13 | bigdog_ut | no idea is it form the distro or did you download it? |
| 05:32.53 | thaabit | from distro |
| 05:33.18 | thaabit | really strange--there are no connection issues, it's just firefox isn't connecting.. |
| 05:33.46 | bigdog_ut | taht is crazy...have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling it? |
| 05:34.57 | thaabit | seems a bit expensive |
| 05:35.04 | thaabit | i'm trying a reboot now... |
| 05:35.11 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 05:35.20 | bigdog_ut | easier to uninstall and then reinstall |
| 05:36.18 | thaabit | via rpm? |
| 05:36.31 | bigdog_ut | you can use that or yum or up2date |
| 05:37.25 | thaabit | thx i'll check it out |
| 05:37.36 | bigdog_ut | kk |
| 05:49.57 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@66.236.78.114.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 05:57.11 | fozzmoo | Looks like I'm gonna be pulling a late one tonight. |
| 06:11.57 | mheath | http://www.kiwicafe.com/gallery/albums/Album/44_G.jpg |
| 06:12.30 | fozzmoo | What are we looking at? |
| 06:13.13 | mheath | fozzmoo, a beautiful area? :) |
| 06:13.24 | fozzmoo | Okay. Just checking. |
| 06:13.26 | mheath | Picture from our ranch near Telluride, Colorado. |
| 06:13.34 | fozzmoo | In the fall? |
| 06:15.15 | mheath | Apparently. Last year sometime. |
| 06:15.34 | mheath | Not sure who took that picture - found it on the net. Probably one of the hunters we loan a cabin there out to. |
| 06:15.41 | fozzmoo | The band I'm in - we've wanted to play Telluride. |
| 06:15.59 | fozzmoo | We've played Vail and Steamboat quite a few times, but still not Telluride. |
| 06:16.11 | mheath | They have a great music festival there. What genre do you play? |
| 06:16.13 | fozzmoo | heh. I say I'm "in" the band. Heh. |
| 06:16.19 | fozzmoo | I'm with the band. :) |
| 06:16.32 | fozzmoo | Progressive rock and Pink Floyd tribute. |
| 06:18.18 | mheath | hmm, not sure how that willk be taken to in Telluride. |
| 06:18.31 | fozzmoo | Everyone likes Pink Floyd. :) |
| 06:18.52 | fozzmoo | Brings the hippies out. |
| 06:18.53 | mheath | Keep in mind, theres two different kinds of people in Telluride now: The very, very, very, very, very rich, and skii bumbs who migrate tehre to work during the ski season |
| 06:19.04 | fozzmoo | Sounds like Steamboat and Vail. :) |
| 06:19.29 | levi_home | Why wouldn't mega-rich people or ski bums like Pink Floyd? |
| 06:19.35 | fozzmoo | Exactly. |
| 06:19.53 | mheath | fozzmoo, no, Steamboat and Vail don't have people as rich as Telluride |
| 06:19.58 | levi_home | I wouldn't go so far as to say that /everyone/ likes them, but people everywhere like them. |
| 06:19.59 | fozzmoo | Okay. |
| 06:20.11 | mheath | Oprah, Tom Cruise, Ralph Lauren and many others all own land in/near Telluride. |
| 06:20.30 | fozzmoo | I'll stay clear of Telluride. Bunch of wackos. |
| 06:20.40 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 06:21.39 | levi_home | mheath: What kind of music do you think they listen to? |
| 06:21.56 | fozzmoo | Wacko music, of course. |
| 06:22.10 | fozzmoo | Michael Jackson, probably. |
| 06:22.24 | mheath | levi_home, their giant annual music festival...the huge event of the year there...is Bluegrass. |
| 06:22.26 | fozzmoo | Does Cindy Sheehan have any CDs? |
| 06:22.47 | mheath | Though they do also have a Blues festival |
| 06:22.58 | mheath | and a rather good film festival, but thats a bit off the subject |
| 06:23.04 | fozzmoo | I've heard of that one. |
| 06:23.42 | mheath | Oh, and apparenetly a Jazz festival. Didn't know about that one.... |
| 06:23.47 | fozzmoo | Huh. |
| 06:24.02 | mheath | Haha.."Mushroom Festival". |
| 06:24.06 | fozzmoo | Oh dear. |
| 06:24.18 | fozzmoo | That's when we could play. |
| 06:24.43 | mheath | Sounds very hippy (it's apparently an innocent 'lets sample all the [non-halucenogenic] gourmet mushrooms" thing) |
| 06:24.59 | fozzmoo | At least, the public tastings are. |
| 06:25.24 | mheath | Oooh, Telluride Tech Festival. |
| 06:25.31 | levi_home | Mmmm, mushrooms. |
| 06:25.42 | levi_home | Delectable fungus. :) |
| 06:26.31 | mheath | fozzmoo, for only $500, you too can attend the Telluride Tech Festival! |
| 06:26.48 | fozzmoo | Sounds fun. |
| 06:29.18 | mheath | fozzmoo, actually, it does |
| 06:29.23 | mheath | They have a picture on their website from 2003 |
| 06:29.34 | mheath | Look at the honoree list: Jill Tarter, Neil Armstrong, Lewis Branscomb, Sir Arthur Clarke, Charles Townes, Freeman Dyson and Bruce Murray |
| 06:35.07 | levi_home | Boy, John Dvorak looks out of place in that list. |
| 06:41.03 | levi_home | mheath: The registration page says that the presentations and panel discussions are free and open to the public. Paying lets you into a cocktail party and picnic, as well as guaranteeing a seat in the front. |
| 06:41.58 | levi_home | I wonder what the purpose of student passes is, then. Hmm. |
| 07:02.58 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) |
| 07:03.08 | xbmodder_lappy | anyone still awake? |
| 07:04.10 | fozzmoo | Absolutely. |
| 07:04.36 | fozzmoo | It's going to be a long night for fozzmoo. |
| 07:06.04 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 07:06.08 | xbmodder_lappy | fozzmoo, what are you upto? |
| 07:06.36 | fozzmoo | I'm onsite in the basement of a client's business... |
| 07:06.41 | fozzmoo | watching a RAID array rebuild. |
| 07:06.48 | fozzmoo | 53%! |
| 07:07.16 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 07:07.27 | xbmodder_lappy | do you know much about communication networks? |
| 07:07.35 | fozzmoo | What kind of communication networks? |
| 07:08.46 | xbmodder_lappy | wireless, DSL, etc... |
| 07:09.45 | fozzmoo | A little bit. |
| 07:09.58 | fozzmoo | DSL is just ATM. |
| 07:10.19 | fozzmoo | Most wireless ISPs use 802.11b |
| 07:10.38 | fozzmoo | Some use Motorola canopy and I'd imagine some are starting to use WiMax hardware. |
| 07:12.20 | xbmodder_lappy | Have you played with WiMax at all? |
| 07:12.26 | fozzmoo | nope, Not yet. |
| 07:12.48 | nick125_lappy | I don't think anyone has.. |
| 07:13.21 | xbmodder_lappy | yeah |
| 07:13.35 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125_lappy, Last year some ESes came out |
| 07:14.28 | fozzmoo | Looks like some WiMax hardware was certified in January. |
| 07:15.02 | xbmodder_lappy | but nobody has seen them yet |
| 07:15.15 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 07:15.44 | fozzmoo | http://www.wimax-industry.com/eq/wimaxhardwarevendors.htm |
| 07:15.46 | brac | [WiMAX Hardware Vendors] |
| 07:17.08 | fozzmoo | Wow. Proxim has a 872Mbps wireless system for gigabit wireless. |
| 07:17.13 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 07:17.59 | xbmodder_lappy | Do you know of any way to keep users isolated from each other on a wireless AP |
| 07:18.00 | xbmodder_lappy | like PPPoE over AP |
| 07:18.00 | fozzmoo | Yeah. VPN. |
| 07:18.05 | fozzmoo | Make each user connect to a VPN over the wireless connection. |
| 07:18.15 | fozzmoo | All wireless traffic would then be encrypted. |
| 07:18.18 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 07:18.35 | xbmodder_lappy | something _simple_ |
| 07:18.38 | fozzmoo | Set that up for a client last year. |
| 07:18.41 | fozzmoo | This is very simple. |
| 07:18.50 | fozzmoo | We set up a wide-open WAP... |
| 07:18.55 | fozzmoo | but it didn't go anywhere. |
| 07:19.02 | fozzmoo | Except to the VPN server. |
| 07:19.10 | xbmodder_lappy | hm |
| 07:19.18 | fozzmoo | Once you connected to the VPN, you could get to the LAN and out to the Net. |
| 07:19.35 | fozzmoo | We did it with PP2P... |
| 07:19.41 | fozzmoo | PPTP, I mean. |
| 07:19.44 | xbmodder_lappy | yeah |
| 07:19.49 | xbmodder_lappy | that windows VPN |
| 07:19.53 | fozzmoo | But I'd do it with OpenVPN if I could. |
| 07:20.11 | fozzmoo | This particular client has an obsession with m0n0wall. |
| 07:20.16 | fozzmoo | I hate m0n0wall... |
| 07:20.25 | fozzmoo | But that's what they wanted to use for the VPN gateway. |
| 07:20.37 | fozzmoo | This particular version supports IPSEC or PPTP. |
| 07:20.54 | xbmodder_lappy | yeah |
| 07:21.22 | fozzmoo | I think more recent versions of m0n0wall support OpenVPN. |
| 07:21.25 | fozzmoo | That would have been cool. |
| 07:22.08 | xbmodder_lappy | I am thinking for more of a hotspot setup |
| 07:25.41 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. I see. |
| 07:25.54 | fozzmoo | In that case, no, not really. |
| 07:28.37 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 07:33.36 | fozzmoo | RAID rebuild is at 57% |
| 07:34.04 | xbmodder_lappy | yay? |
| 07:34.10 | xbmodder_lappy | ETA? |
| 07:34.29 | fozzmoo | Hmmm... It was at 24% about 3 hours ago... |
| 07:34.44 | fozzmoo | So, probably about 4-5 more hours. |
| 07:37.11 | xbmodder_lappy | all-nighter? |
| 07:37.17 | fozzmoo | Pretty much. |
| 07:37.24 | xbmodder_lappy | take a nap |
| 07:37.29 | xbmodder_lappy | set a alarm in 1800 seconds |
| 07:37.44 | fozzmoo | I'm getting lots of work done while I'm here. |
| 07:37.51 | fozzmoo | And listening to some Porcupine Tree. |
| 07:52.20 | fozzmoo | SIXTY! |
| 07:52.45 | xbmodder_lappy | haha |
| 08:33.34 | xbmodder_lappy | fozzmoo, http://xbmodder.us/wci/ < basic diagram of what I am thinking |
| 08:33.35 | brac | [Index of /wci/] |
| 08:34.04 | xbmodder_lappy | I want the client to directly communicate with the RO/Hotspot |
| 08:35.38 | xbmodder_lappy | fozzmoo, any thoughts? |
| 08:36.46 | xbmodder_lappy | I doubt your asleep already |
| 08:53.05 | fozzmoo | ~seen tene |
| 08:53.17 | ibot | tene <n=tene@poipu/supporter/slacker/tene> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 1d 1h 28m 50s ago, saying: 'Mmm... Smoothie...'. |
| 09:01.31 | xbmodder_lappy | fozzmoo, any ideas? |
| 09:46.41 | xbmodder_lappy | is anyone awake |
| 10:33.11 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) |
| 11:06.31 | *** join/#utah Sargun (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) |
| 13:04.39 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=mkling@12.174.37.165) |
| 13:23.31 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=upirc@h4607828f.area7.spcsdns.net) |
| 13:24.48 | herlo | q: I have no net access. I need to know what driver to use 4 this linksys usb network card. suggestions? |
| 13:25.23 | herlo | model #: usb200m |
| 13:48.42 | herlo | <herlo> q: I have no net access. I need to know what driver to use 4 this linksys usb network card. suggestions? |
| 13:51.29 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.utahbroadband.com) |
| 13:52.58 | graphyx | herlo: use this one? |
| 13:52.59 | graphyx | http://www.driverskit.com/freedownload/Net_Card/Linksys/USB200M_USB_2_0_Network_Adapter_1_0_0_4/USB200M_USB_2_0_Network_Adapter_1_0_0_4/get17714.html |
| 13:53.00 | brac | [Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 Network Adapter 1.0.0.4 Driver Download] |
| 13:53.28 | graphyx | I'll assume you have shell access at least since you are here. |
| 14:02.26 | herlo | no |
| 14:03.38 | graphyx | how are you on IRC then? |
| 14:14.49 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=decripto@sshaw.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 14:19.02 | *** join/#utah eswald (n=breadman@c-67-169-244-240.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 14:19.07 | redbeard1 | graphyx: why would he need shell access to get on irc? |
| 14:21.21 | graphyx | well I was having a hard time coming up with a scenario where he would have irc access, but not be able to download a file. |
| 14:21.32 | graphyx | unless it was specifically setup to be that way. |
| 14:21.53 | graphyx | But in general systems are setup to be able to connect to irc, but not be able to download files. |
| 14:26.09 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (i=Migs@205.122.50.21) |
| 14:27.52 | jlp_work | irc via treo client, maybe? |
| 14:34.33 | redbeard1 | i'm not sure my irc client lets me send/receive a file. i thought it did, but i don't see anything |
| 14:34.43 | redbeard1 | nm, there it is |
| 14:48.31 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp29.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 14:51.57 | *** join/#utah nwood888 (i=nwood@stutter.prohosting.com) |
| 14:53.40 | maquis | *grumble* |
| 14:53.46 | maquis | repairpeople came early today |
| 14:54.57 | graphyx | Would you prefer they keep you waiting all day? |
| 14:57.02 | maquis | graphyx: we don't have to be here when they come... |
| 14:57.15 | maquis | our landlady just gave them keys to our apartments |
| 14:57.15 | graphyx | oh. |
| 14:57.20 | graphyx | That's different. |
| 15:06.33 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@208.187.198.66) |
| 15:10.31 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 15:14.25 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 15:16.36 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:16.41 | elg | -seen dilvie |
| 15:16.41 | brac | dilvie was last seen 9 days, 1 hours, 56 minutes and 16 seconds ago, quiting IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 15:19.26 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 15:19.29 | sjansen | http://www.bedework.org/bedework/update.do?artcenterkey=10 <-- Check out the first two features! |
| 15:20.29 | sjansen | I can understanding listing the technologies at the end, but I'm most intersted in knowing what it freaking does for me. |
| 15:20.55 | sjansen | (Besides, arguably, the use of Java and Hibernate are not features but mis-features.) |
| 15:23.01 | sjansen | Whoa! That's unexpected! The just announced OSS Mac OS X iCal server is written in Python! |
| 15:23.18 | sjansen | Porting this thing to Linux just go _a whole lot_ easier than I expected. :-) |
| 15:27.08 | levi | Interesting. |
| 15:27.33 | ^Migs^ | I got a furious email from a parent this morning about our school registration documents |
| 15:27.36 | levi | There must be a lot of Python and Ruby coders at Apple. |
| 15:27.38 | ^Migs^ | "This Bites Everybody does not own a computer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Hate this And then you want to charge a 5.00 mailing fee For What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Free education??????????????????????????????? How do I afford to enroll 3 kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^^^^^^" |
| 15:28.34 | levi | They could certainly start by conserving punctuation. |
| 15:29.06 | Jayce^ | no wonder those pipes are filling up |
| 15:29.07 | ^Migs^ | they're certainly more than welcome to go into their school and register, rather than mail the documents in |
| 15:29.15 | ^Migs^ | nor do they have to have a computer |
| 15:29.22 | levi | And the irony of complaining via email that not everyone has a computer... |
| 15:29.29 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I didn't get that either |
| 15:29.40 | ^Migs^ | rather than respond to it, though, that went straight to my "funny" box |
| 15:30.25 | levi | And I'm sure you could save $15 by laying off the crack for a bit. |
| 15:30.35 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 15:30.48 | ^Migs^ | I'm going to tell him/her that |
| 15:31.37 | ^Migs^ | not really, but that would be a hoot |
| 15:31.44 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=upirc@h4607828f.area7.spcsdns.net) |
| 15:32.11 | ^Migs^ | who said anything about education being free? Taxpayers pay for it. |
| 15:32.47 | ^Migs^ | these are the delightful people I get to deal with all the time |
| 15:33.07 | herlo | shell access is not avail because I am using my treo. I have limited accss to the net as well |
| 15:33.08 | ^Migs^ | more fun than it sounds, because I'm behind a terminal rather than speaking to their face, in which case I'd probably end up punching about half of them |
| 15:33.31 | herlo | not that I cannot install a ssh client |
| 15:33.49 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 15:35.23 | graphyx | ahh. treo access. |
| 15:35.26 | graphyx | K |
| 15:35.29 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog@208.177.146.102.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 15:35.31 | graphyx | That makes sense |
| 15:37.00 | herlo | that's why I keep coming and going |
| 15:37.12 | graphyx | gotcha |
| 15:42.20 | sjansen | ~school ^Migs^ |
| 15:42.22 | ibot | ACTION slaps ^Migs^ around, robs'm, then reminds'm to be thankfully for the education. |
| 15:44.01 | herlo | ibot: thankfully? |
| 15:44.01 | ibot | no worries, herlo |
| 15:45.05 | ^Migs^ | haha |
| 15:47.42 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=upirc@h4607828f.area7.spcsdns.net) |
| 15:59.06 | *** join/#utah phinux (n=jamie@c-67-164-196-242.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:59.23 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=jamie@c-67-164-196-242.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:08.48 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@208.187.198.66) |
| 16:20.07 | mheath | Sigh. |
| 16:37.16 | *** join/#utah {-} (n=sjansen@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 16:37.31 | redbeard1 | ~lart {-} |
| 16:37.56 | {-} | Stupid Xen and its stupid unreliablility. |
| 16:38.27 | {-} | After running for awhile, it just picks a random device to kill. Often my network card. |
| 16:38.44 | redbeard1 | ~kill sjansen's network card |
| 16:38.46 | ibot | ACTION shoots a inverse graviton gun at sjansen's network card |
| 16:39.29 | harleypig | Funny spam subject: Your mother has always dreamed of beautiful kids but you can't provide her with them. Try Spermamax. |
| 16:44.53 | ^Migs^ | I've become an Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion junkie |
| 16:45.06 | ^Migs^ | I can't stop playing that game, and I don't usually become addicted to games. In fact, I never do. |
| 16:45.08 | redbeard1 | harleypig: wow. did you check the location of the sender's ip? was it in arkansas? |
| 16:45.17 | ^Migs^ | until now, apparently |
| 16:46.35 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@h4607828f.area7.spcsdns.net) |
| 16:47.57 | levi | ^Migs^: It'll pass. :) |
| 16:48.01 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-67-177-53-91.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:48.10 | *** join/#utah atoponce (i=aaron@gateway/tor/x-39d5073d28093f7a) |
| 16:48.37 | levi | ^Migs^: After your soul is sucked away, the gaming obsession will leave to find new prey. |
| 16:57.04 | mheath | Wow. HP is somehow going to get my shipment to me tomorrow, despite the fact that its coming across the country on USPS ground and they still haven't shipped it. |
| 16:57.49 | levi | mheath: It will actually arrive the day after you ship out. |
| 17:01.45 | harleypig | redbeard1: heh ... it was a mangled Receieved array. |
| 17:01.59 | harleypig | Anyone used hiveminder today? |
| 17:02.15 | harleypig | http://hiveminder.com |
| 17:02.29 | harleypig | It's a shared todo from Best Practical. |
| 17:03.20 | mheath | levi, heh |
| 17:03.21 | mheath | probably |
| 17:03.41 | mheath | Though it says "The date referenced above is the most current date available to us. This is the same date available through customer service." |
| 17:03.49 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@otherlab.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:04.59 | rsimpkins | I am following the "Plug Meeting" thread. |
| 17:05.08 | rsimpkins | What does it take to have the PLUG web site updated? |
| 17:05.09 | mheath | ....... |
| 17:05.14 | rsimpkins | Does someone need to volunteer or what? |
| 17:05.20 | redbeard1 | rsimpkins: an act of Jayce^, i think |
| 17:05.27 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Ping! |
| 17:05.41 | redbeard1 | rsimpkins: i bet if you volunteered, they'd let you do it |
| 17:06.21 | rsimpkins | My manager and I were actually talking about Plug a couple days ago. |
| 17:06.48 | rsimpkins | He mentioned that the PLUG sure seemed like a fly-by-night operation run by unprofessionals that would let their web site become so far out of date. |
| 17:07.03 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins, it has to do with people who can give time.. |
| 17:07.11 | Jayce^ | nobody ever has any |
| 17:07.22 | mheath | ARGH |
| 17:07.26 | rsimpkins | how long does it take to pound out a bit of HTML now and then? |
| 17:07.29 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins, well, I haven't heard that in a *long* time :) |
| 17:07.37 | mheath | That was the most AGRIVATING tech support call in the WORLD. |
| 17:07.46 | mheath | I KNOW IT HASN'T SHIPPED YET. |
| 17:07.47 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins, you've got the job.... |
| 17:08.04 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Great. :) rsimpkins@omniture.com for the details. |
| 17:08.05 | mheath | I don't want you to tell me "Well, we ship those CDs from two locations. you can expect an average ship date of ____" |
| 17:08.14 | mheath | er, average ship time |
| 17:08.26 | mheath | Its already way past your "average ship times" |
| 17:08.36 | rsimpkins | Chris Russell: Yes. I know. HI. |
| 17:09.18 | mheath | This isn't a tech support call, either. I'm inquiring about something I paid $20 for (that I shouldn't have had to - you just use bad recovery technology). I don't want to discuss WHY I need the Recovery CD-ROMs I've ordered. I don't want to discuss how long I've had my laptop, or why I ordered it. |
| 17:09.51 | mheath | I do not want to participate in a customer satisfaction servey. |
| 17:10.05 | mheath | I do not want to have my telephone call routed to india and back |
| 17:10.19 | mheath | PLEASE JUST TELL ME WHEN I'M GOING TO GET MY ORDER. |
| 17:14.03 | levi | Wow, the Plug site is going to get updates?! N oway. |
| 17:14.14 | levi | s/N oway/No way/ |
| 17:14.34 | harleypig | Yeah, I mean, how hard can it be, really? :> |
| 17:15.21 | harleypig | Well, at the time I only had access from work, and you know what else was going on in my life. |
| 17:26.17 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:27.37 | mheath | Whats a good way to clean off a laptop screen? |
| 17:27.51 | mheath | Is only using the made-for-screen cleaners the only advisable option? |
| 17:29.13 | redbeard1 | mheath: i use eyeglass cleaners |
| 17:29.33 | rsimpkins | I currently have 12 different screen sessions going in 2 main sessions (with ^a changed to ^f on one). I feel like a true finger jocky today. |
| 17:30.01 | mheath | hmm, that sounds like a good idea |
| 17:30.11 | mheath | Window cleaner leaves it too streaky |
| 17:30.23 | mheath | Even the name brand expensive ones that advertise "no streaks" for windows |
| 17:31.20 | redbeard1 | yeah, do the eyeglass cleaners. they're non-abrasive and they tend to not streak, because they have less liquid |
| 17:32.00 | mheath | heh. the eyeglass cleaner bottle says "shake before use" on it |
| 17:32.05 | mheath | it foams up and won't spray when you do :P |
| 17:33.05 | rsimpkins | I like to use 90% isopropyl for cleaning CRTs. I am too afraid to clean my LCDs - silly plastic monitors. |
| 17:33.39 | redbeard1 | mheath: i use these alcohol cloths that come in little wet-nap packets. |
| 17:33.55 | mheath | wow, my cousin decided to not go into the Navy. Hmm |
| 17:34.05 | rsimpkins | Has anyone tried straight alchol on an LCD? Does it mess it up? |
| 17:34.06 | sjansen | I just lick the screen until it stops tasting good. |
| 17:34.25 | mheath | I like sjansen's suggestion. |
| 17:34.29 | redbeard1 | rsimpkins: not straight. i use my little packets. |
| 17:34.39 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Remind me never to touch your screen. EVER. |
| 17:34.45 | sjansen | heh |
| 17:34.46 | mheath | I wish the windows security system was more comprehensive. |
| 17:34.54 | mheath | I'm leaving this laptop for my sister to use while I'm gone |
| 17:35.10 | mheath | I don't want her to mess around with security, settings, the virus scanner, etc. |
| 17:35.17 | mheath | but I want to let her install software |
| 17:35.44 | rsimpkins | mheath: Just make her an admin, and reaload windows when ya get back. :) |
| 17:36.06 | sjansen | Nah, buy a Mac. |
| 17:36.13 | *** join/#utah suspence (n=spencer@208.187.196.34) |
| 17:36.51 | mheath | Cleaning off the keyboard. My appologies if I bump return and you see a slew of random characters. |
| 17:39.20 | ^Migs^ | it's good you told us. We would've never forgiven you otherwise. |
| 17:40.45 | Jayce^ | usually that's when I'd change focus, to *prevent* that from happening |
| 17:41.10 | herlo | ahh, battery life |
| 17:41.39 | mheath | Jayce^, what? I'm too lazy for something like that. ;-) |
| 17:42.49 | sjansen | herlo: You're able to charge your laptop again? |
| 17:47.05 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Did you get my reply? |
| 17:47.12 | *** join/#utah EvilHerbivore (n=dave@65-100-253-109.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 17:47.13 | Jayce^ | yeah, key should be there now |
| 17:47.20 | Jayce^ | check it |
| 17:47.38 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: No go. |
| 17:47.42 | Jayce^ | was lucky, my spamfilter didn't like all the radom muck |
| 17:47.43 | Jayce^ | hrm |
| 17:47.53 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Anything in the logs? |
| 17:48.15 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Hold on... just a moment. |
| 17:48.31 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Helps if you use the right identity. ;) |
| 17:49.53 | Jayce^ | oh, nifty... sshd[29949]: error: open /dev/tty failed - could not set controlling tty: Permission denied |
| 17:50.05 | Jayce^ | public key worked though |
| 17:50.43 | mheath | Can anyone recommend a DVD copy/ripping program? |
| 17:51.41 | harleypig | mheath: dvdparanoia |
| 17:53.46 | mheath | harleypig, I do a google search for that and nothing comes up. |
| 17:57.31 | harleypig | mheath: sorry ... being silly ... there is a cdparanoia, I just made up dvdparanoia ... this is for a mac or win box? |
| 17:57.50 | mheath | Windows. |
| 17:59.00 | harleypig | I have no clue then. You might try nonags.com |
| 17:59.22 | levi | Oh, hey... I just noticed that Apple's preview of Leopard features shows some cool stuff for XCode. |
| 17:59.46 | levi | It's written in 'Objective-C 2.0', which now has garbage collection. |
| 18:05.42 | atoponce | 'bout time objective-c inclueds garbage colletion |
| 18:05.49 | atoponce | s/colletion/collection/ |
| 18:06.59 | *** join/#utah SB1-Work (n=SB2-work@64.122.30.6) |
| 18:11.27 | ^Migs^ | you want to move in with me? |
| 18:11.52 | SB1-Work | Remember a few months back, when you had the idea to offer a starving college student room and food in exchange for work? ;) |
| 18:12.13 | ^Migs^ | oh right |
| 18:12.24 | ^Migs^ | never found anyone |
| 18:12.32 | ^Migs^ | well, we did, but never followed up on calling them back and stuff |
| 18:12.36 | SB1-Work | Ah |
| 18:12.39 | SB1-Work | That's too bad |
| 18:13.12 | SB1-Work | sjansen, PM please |
| 18:13.22 | rsimpkins | Who here went to OSCON? |
| 18:20.07 | redbeard1 | i know Jayce^ did |
| 18:20.09 | redbeard1 | and harleypig |
| 18:20.33 | redbeard1 | but they's at lunch |
| 18:21.46 | harleypig | I'm at lunch, but I'm at my cubie watching a Discovery Science show. |
| 18:21.49 | rsimpkins | Do we still do the Perl meeting at 6:30? |
| 18:23.16 | harleypig | Sort of ... we need to have a more formal setup, but attendance has been abysmal, so we've been winging it. |
| 18:23.23 | redbeard1 | rsimpkins: yeah... but it's rare that anybody steps up to do a perl presentation |
| 18:24.38 | harleypig | I'll be talking about my vim setup if anyone is interested. |
| 18:26.28 | rsimpkins | harleypig: Wha? |
| 18:26.44 | rsimpkins | harleypig: Can you please send me some details, so I can update the web site. :) |
| 18:27.16 | harleypig | uhhh ... |
| 18:28.04 | rsimpkins | You are going to talk about vim at 6:30 or at 7:30? |
| 18:30.26 | ^Migs^ | wtf: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207440,00.html |
| 18:30.27 | harleypig | It *was* going to be an informal talk about what I've done so far to make programming perl easier and what I'd like to get done at 6:30 |
| 18:31.15 | ^Migs^ | Utah has had some pretty fuxored news stories lately |
| 18:32.17 | harleypig | This is nothing new ... even for utah. |
| 18:35.15 | atoponce | (story continues below).... where? |
| 18:36.22 | harleypig | sounds like a template screwup |
| 18:36.49 | atoponce | somethin |
| 18:37.58 | atoponce | maybe the journalist didn't know what to write to finish the story |
| 18:38.22 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp29.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 18:40.08 | levi | elg: You see the stuff that's going to be in Leopard's XCode? |
| 18:45.09 | Supaplex | it's the endless story that stops in mid thought. |
| 18:49.48 | elg | no |
| 18:52.23 | levi | http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/xcode.html |
| 18:52.24 | brac | [Apple - Mac OS X Leopard Sneak Peek - Xcode 3.0] |
| 18:57.53 | maquis | wow... somebody walked off with a desktop computer from a "fairly secure facility" |
| 19:00.10 | goozbach | wow ammost a full day without checking on IRC |
| 19:00.15 | goozbach | methinks that's a new record |
| 19:00.18 | maquis | -lart goozbach |
| 19:02.40 | sjansen | ~pingflood goozbach |
| 19:02.56 | findlay | ~pinkflood? |
| 19:03.52 | *** join/#utah redbeard1 (n=redbeard@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 19:05.24 | goozbach | yes it is |
| 19:06.46 | sjansen | findlay: forces? doesn't seem like you'd consider that a punishment |
| 19:09.32 | elg | Xray looks cool, I don't see anything else that's worth shaking sticks at |
| 19:11.36 | findlay | I don't |
| 19:11.36 | levi | elg: Objective-C 2.0, now with garbage collection |
| 19:11.59 | Jayce^ | levi, yeah, I really liked xray + dtrace |
| 19:12.02 | levi | Plus, Dtrace underlies a lot of Xray stuff. |
| 19:12.19 | levi | And is presumably available by itself as well. |
| 19:12.23 | findlay | seeing that I'm forcing myself to listen to about 50 hours of Mozart opera |
| 19:12.42 | levi | I think I may have overloaded amarok |
| 19:13.21 | findlay | I hear they are finally getting virtual desktops |
| 19:13.42 | Jayce^ | findlay, yes, 'spaces' |
| 19:13.46 | Jayce^ | and they look really nice |
| 19:15.35 | levi | Yow, I think it was doing musicbrainz tag lookups on everything I had attempted to add to the library. |
| 19:19.40 | maquis | http://blog.wired.com/27BStroke6/#1535689 |
| 19:19.42 | brac | [27B Stroke 6] |
| 19:22.26 | *** join/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13) |
| 19:23.09 | findlay | is it unadvisable to pass values to perl subs? |
| 19:23.26 | Jayce^ | references are usually a better idea.. |
| 19:23.54 | *** part/#utah ^Migs^ (i=Migs@205.122.50.21) |
| 19:25.23 | harleypig | It depends on what you want to do with them, but Jayce^ is right. |
| 19:25.32 | findlay | what's the best way to pass and access variables that have been passed by reference |
| 19:25.46 | harleypig | But if you pass a reference you have to make sure you don't modify unless you need to. |
| 19:25.51 | findlay | I seem to be stuck in a false concept |
| 19:25.53 | atoponce | why is #ubuntu forwarding to #ubuntu-ops? or is it just me? |
| 19:26.26 | harleypig | findlay: usually something like sub somesub { my $a = shift ; $a->{ 'key' } } |
| 19:26.39 | harleypig | assuming a hash reference is passed |
| 19:26.48 | findlay | what abaout a plain old scalar? |
| 19:27.08 | harleypig | You mean a reference to a scalar or just a scalar? |
| 19:27.14 | findlay | ref to scalar |
| 19:27.20 | harleypig | somesub( $a ) or somesub( \$a ) |
| 19:27.33 | findlay | door #2 |
| 19:28.17 | harleypig | two ways: $$a or ${$a} |
| 19:28.31 | harleypig | effectively the same, but $$a is falling out of favor |
| 19:29.32 | findlay | why? |
| 19:29.41 | harleypig | If you're using it a lot you might be better of creating a temporary variable: my $local_a = ${$a} |
| 19:29.54 | harleypig | because people have been doing stuff l ike $$a{ 'key' } |
| 19:29.59 | harleypig | which can be confusing |
| 19:30.42 | harleypig | I still like $$a syntax ... it's cleaner than ${$a}, but if you have a hash $a->{ 'key' } is much more clear. |
| 19:31.38 | Jayce^ | findlay, to pass a variable that was passed to you by reference, just &foo( $bar ), because it's already a reference |
| 19:31.46 | findlay | f(\$a) ; sub f{$b = ${@_} ; $b .= "string"} |
| 19:31.53 | findlay | why doesn't that work? |
| 19:32.13 | Jayce^ | $b = ${@_} is your problem |
| 19:32.24 | Jayce^ | ($b) = @_; |
| 19:32.34 | Jayce^ | ($b, $c, ...) = @_ |
| 19:32.37 | findlay | but then $b would be a reference to $a |
| 19:32.40 | Jayce^ | $b = shift |
| 19:32.40 | harleypig | wait ... $a was already a reference? |
| 19:32.47 | findlay | harleypig: no |
| 19:33.04 | harleypig | ok ... good |
| 19:33.05 | Jayce^ | findlay, with ${@_} you are messing up, that's your issue |
| 19:33.25 | Jayce^ | don't dereference the default array, it's just an array |
| 19:33.32 | findlay | what's wrong with it? it evaluates the array @_ instead of $a? |
| 19:33.53 | harleypig | f(\$a) ; sub f{ $b = shift ; $b .= "string" } |
| 19:33.57 | harleypig | err .. |
| 19:34.02 | harleypig | f(\$a) ; sub f{ $b = shift ; $$b .= "string" } |
| 19:34.05 | Jayce^ | because as that, you are dereferencing the default array, not the first element which is \$a |
| 19:34.23 | findlay | Jayce^: right |
| 19:35.09 | jlp_work | $_[0] |
| 19:35.11 | Jayce^ | that is not how you want it to work though, you want to dereference \$a, not @_... so $b = shift; |
| 19:35.43 | Jayce^ | you can then dereference $b (or $_[0] if you work with the array, as jlp_work pointed out) |
| 19:35.57 | jlp_work | but it's disgusting |
| 19:36.01 | findlay | yeah |
| 19:36.09 | jlp_work | shift is cleaner for doing that |
| 19:36.34 | Jayce^ | and "my ($a, $b) = @_;" is often even better |
| 19:36.39 | jlp_work | when I pass a bunch of junk in, I often do my($a, $b, $c, ...) = @_ instead of doing $a = shift; $b = shift; ... |
| 19:36.40 | findlay | does ${shift} interpret shift as a bareword rather than a function? |
| 19:36.54 | jlp_work | but if I just have one thing, I'll often shift |
| 19:37.07 | amcnabb | @Jayce^, that last one is the only one that looks clean. |
| 19:37.29 | Jayce^ | don't ${ shift } |
| 19:38.03 | findlay | so { } are an extension of the $ indicator? |
| 19:38.13 | Jayce^ | in that usage |
| 19:38.31 | levi | Mmm, Kraftwerk, Electric Cafe |
| 19:39.43 | levi | Man, are you guys having modem problems or something? I see a bunch of line noise. |
| 19:39.47 | amcnabb | Perl can look ugly, but at least all that punctuation means something. |
| 19:40.05 | amcnabb | C++ is making me mad. |
| 19:40.12 | amcnabb | Because it's ugly for no reason. |
| 19:40.15 | levi | It's good at that. |
| 19:40.17 | amcnabb | http://pastebin.ca/122562 |
| 19:40.47 | amcnabb | People are being encouraged to write nasty looking stuff. |
| 19:40.51 | Jayce^ | levi, thought you'd like the parens :) |
| 19:41.06 | amcnabb | :) |
| 19:41.28 | harleypig | findlay: you can do ${ +shift } :> |
| 19:41.35 | levi | Jayce^: They don't look right when they've got stuff outside of them. ;) |
| 19:41.46 | findlay | harleypig: right, I forgot about + (: |
| 19:41.52 | Jayce^ | bad harleypig... don't teach parser tricks! |
| 19:42.00 | harleypig | :> |
| 19:43.29 | levi | amcnabb: Well, the nasty-looking code is nicer conceptually, but it's hard to get past the nasty-looking-ness. |
| 19:44.11 | harleypig | findlay: {}, in this context is roughly equivalent to a cast |
| 19:44.38 | Jayce^ | harleypig, were you awake for the bit where chromatic had his trick about really encapsulating methods? The one where he use an attribute to tag the compiler to rename your subs with unicode/other "illegal" chars, so nobody else could code to it... the parser wouldn't "let" them, even though it really did work |
| 19:44.46 | amcnabb | levi, "std::vector<BzfRegion*>::iterator itr" is too ugly to make up for any nice concept. |
| 19:44.51 | harleypig | yeah |
| 19:45.07 | harleypig | but it didn't stick ... I think my brain was already screaming by that point |
| 19:45.09 | levi | amcnabb: You just need a type alias or something. |
| 19:45.29 | amcnabb | Python is spoiling me. |
| 19:47.10 | rsimpkins | Thats really sad. Really, really sad. |
| 19:47.51 | Jayce^ | of course, this was friday... after a very very busy week, but still |
| 19:48.27 | levi | Man, people call Common Lisp a big ball of mud. From all the bizarre things you can do to manipulate perl into doing non-obvious things, it seems like a huge amorphous semi-sentient mass of digital debris with a thin scaffolding of random ascii characters surrounding it. ;) |
| 19:49.22 | rsimpkins | levi: Perl reads your mind. |
| 19:49.33 | rsimpkins | levi: But you are not allowed to read its mind. |
| 19:49.35 | levi | Perl doesn't like my mind. |
| 19:50.22 | levi | Of course, the first significant thing I tried to do with it was nest arrays inside a hash or something like that, and it did not work at all how I expected it to. |
| 19:50.36 | Jayce^ | levi, you'd like it, when Audrey tang was giving a presentation, she did a *really* scary trick, very evil stuff.... and after all the geeks had been shocked she showed a transcript of when she first discussed the idea with larry... |
| 19:50.49 | Jayce^ | larry's quote, "Perl is a Scary Language..." :) |
| 19:51.38 | Jayce^ | basically she was blessing an object to '0', which made it an object, but not an object... very very strange stuff |
| 19:51.44 | levi | I like the scaryness of my languages to come from deeply powerful theoretical constructs rather than interactions of implementation details. |
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| 19:54.13 | levi | Haskell and Scheme are my kind of scary languages. :) |
| 19:54.34 | Jayce^ | been reading more on haskell... you see the "haskell for Perl programmers" notes I posted? |
| 19:56.11 | levi | I think so. |
| 19:57.05 | macnewbold | I've got a friend and former co-worker who was all about haskell. He would write almost anything in haskell. he loved it like you've never seen anyone love a language before. |
| 19:57.21 | macnewbold | my opinion is if you're going to go to scheme, you probably should just go all the way to lisp. |
| 20:00.52 | levi | I use both scheme and common lisp. |
| 20:01.16 | levi | Lisp doesn't have call-with-current-continuation, though. |
| 20:02.18 | levi | macnewbold: Is he no longer all about Haskell? |
| 20:07.11 | macnewbold | no, he' no longer a co-worker, so I don't see him much. He moved back to Scotland, and took our former admin. asst. with him as his wife. |
| 20:07.25 | macnewbold | I'm quite sure he's still using haskell heavily though. |
| 20:07.57 | levi | I've only read through tutorials for Haskell, so I like it from a distance right now. |
| 20:08.05 | levi | I actually program in Scheme and Common Lisp. |
| 20:29.19 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 20:38.50 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:04.13 | Jayce^ | scottish haskell... dang.. |
| 21:04.43 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:12.12 | sjansen | heh |
| 21:14.15 | sjansen | harleypig: That beast may have 20.1 screen, but it's only 1,680 x 1,050 pixels. What's the point of a huge screen if it's not cramming in an obscene number of pixels? |
| 21:18.04 | levi | sjansen: I think the point is readability. |
| 21:21.16 | goozbach | I'm with sjansen |
| 21:21.22 | goozbach | levi: use a bigger font |
| 21:21.44 | goozbach | more/smaller pixels and a larger font |
| 21:22.08 | levi | Well, if they were cheaper, I'd love to have a big monitor with densely packed pixels. |
| 21:23.50 | levi | But if you are sparing with the pixels you use to display things, you can fit a lot more. And the more you cram in, the bigger those pixels need to be for your images to be legible. |
| 21:36.32 | macnewbold | about 100 pixels per inch works quite nicely |
| 21:37.29 | macnewbold | my 19" LCD is 13.5"x10.75" of actual screen, and 1280x1024 pixels, and it's great |
| 21:37.31 | emcnabb | redbeard1: ping |
| 21:39.01 | mheath | I still don't understand why S-VIDEO to RCA/Composite plugs are so rare in stores. |
| 21:39.08 | mheath | They're common and cheap online. |
| 21:39.34 | mheath | It seems like something people would want, fairly often. I need one to hook my laptop up to any of the TVs we own. |
| 21:40.09 | macnewbold | your laptop has svideo out, but not tvout? |
| 21:40.34 | mheath | macnewbold, S-VIDEO out IS tvout, apparently |
| 21:40.41 | macnewbold | I had a PC once that had svideo out, and it had a dongle that was composite out |
| 21:40.47 | levi | svideo is a superior cable to composite video cable. |
| 21:40.57 | macnewbold | when I said tvout I meant composite |
| 21:41.04 | macnewbold | levi: yes, it is |
| 21:41.22 | macnewbold | well, and not just the cable. the signal has more info than composite carries. |
| 21:41.41 | mheath | Not any of the places I called / looked at carried them |
| 21:41.48 | mheath | Circuit City, Radio Shack, Walmart.. |
| 21:42.22 | mheath | The only things any of those places had that could do S-VIDEO to Composite output were those giant OMG-I-HAVE-THE-COOLEST-HOME-ENTERTAINMENT-SYSTEM conversion boxes. |
| 21:42.23 | macnewbold | I think to do a real conversion, you need to actually process the signal or something, it's not just a matter of adapting the pins or something |
| 21:42.48 | mheath | macnewbold, yeah, but plugs are cheap |
| 21:42.58 | mheath | Radio Shack's _website_ sells them for $4 each |
| 21:43.17 | mheath | I tried to call a radioshack and the guy was a moron. |
| 21:43.20 | macnewbold | the one I had that had a simple dongle had the regular S=video pins (6, IIRC) plus two more that aren't standard, where they put composite output for their special dongle |
| 21:43.37 | mheath | "I'm looking for an S-VIDEO to Composite adapter." |
| 21:43.37 | rsimpkins | http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/svideo2cvideo.html |
| 21:43.37 | mheath | "you just want to conver the video?" |
| 21:43.38 | brac | [S-video to composite video] |
| 21:43.42 | mheath | "What?" |
| 21:43.47 | mheath | "You don't want the audio?" |
| 21:43.50 | macnewbold | okay, so radio shack sells exactly what you need, but online for $4, and not in the store at all? |
| 21:44.02 | mheath | "Er....S-VIDEO doesn't carry audio..." |
| 21:44.02 | levi | macnewbold: I think the conversion just involves a simple low-pass filter. |
| 21:44.14 | atoponce | s-video or composite, if it's not holding 75hz for the video signal, it's crap |
| 21:44.16 | mheath | macnewbold, its an 'online only' item on their store |
| 21:44.30 | mheath | The guy tried to sell me one of those giant home entertainment all-in-one conversion boxes for $50. |
| 21:45.03 | levi | And s-video is four wires; two separate signal/ground pairs. |
| 21:45.41 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:45.54 | macnewbold | that's cool |
| 21:45.56 | mheath | 4 weeks from today. |
| 21:45.57 | mheath | hmm. |
| 21:46.08 | mheath | nervous about my pullups.... |
| 21:46.17 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: that's very cool |
| 21:46.26 | macnewbold | mheath: you any good with a solder gun? |
| 21:46.27 | levi | One pair carries luminance, the other modulated chrominance. |
| 21:47.49 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: What is even cooler is how many ads that guy can cram on a page. ;) |
| 21:48.37 | mheath | macnewbold, yes. |
| 21:49.23 | elg | http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/080206/take-it-to-the-next-level.gif |
| 21:52.07 | mheath | I don't know much about electronics....what does pF stand for? |
| 21:52.17 | levi | picoFarad |
| 21:52.24 | mheath | Just so I don't sound like too much of a moron when i walk into radio shack |
| 21:52.42 | levi | I don't know how many radio shack employees know what pF is anymore. |
| 21:52.58 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 21:53.03 | macnewbold | yeah, it's not a requirement these days |
| 21:54.09 | levi | If your radio shack even still has an electronic component section, it's probably something you have to know about already to make use of. The employees are trained to sell gadgets and cell phones, not parts. |
| 21:55.50 | mheath | I know that last time i went there, they had some electornic components, though I wasn't looking for capacitors at the time, and that was a few years back. |
| 21:56.08 | mheath | Whats an electronics store I could go to, then, that actually sells electronics and not gadgets? |
| 21:56.10 | atoponce | "1.21 jigawatts!" |
| 21:56.52 | rsimpkins | For the interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farad -- no flux capacators here. |
| 21:56.55 | levi | I have no idea; most people don't buy electronic components locally. |
| 21:57.27 | rsimpkins | You can almost always find enough odd bits of electronics like this from tearing in to old TVs and what not. |
| 21:59.32 | elg | mheath: i could tell you if you were in utah valley |
| 22:00.18 | rsimpkins | There are a couple good electronics component stores in SLC I believe. |
| 22:00.35 | atoponce | it is a shame radio shack went the direction they did |
| 22:00.43 | rsimpkins | It saved them. |
| 22:00.53 | rsimpkins | Otherwise there would be 1 radio shack in the whole state. |
| 22:02.03 | mheath | capacitors are impossible to figure out the ids on. hmm.. |
| 22:03.08 | rsimpkins | mheath: Look under 'local dealers' - I bet there is something here: http://www.ogdenarc.org/links.html |
| 22:03.10 | brac | [OARC - Ogden Amateur Radio Club] |
| 22:04.09 | rsimpkins | mheath: I'd be willing to bet if you sent them an e-mail - someone on that list would give or sell you what you needed. :) |
| 22:04.42 | mheath | rsimpkins, they're list is almost all in SLC, except for radioshack |
| 22:04.55 | mheath | rsimpkins, nah, not realy wroth the trouble. This is for a tiny $1 part :P |
| 22:11.45 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@208-47-173-165.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 22:15.00 | levi | Mmm, Bach on a Moog. |
| 22:15.27 | *** part/#utah eswald (n=breadman@c-67-169-244-240.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:16.47 | sjansen | Mmm, Beethoven on a wheat thin. |
| 22:16.52 | sontek | anyone know of a good lawyer around Murray/SLC area? |
| 22:17.12 | sjansen | Never a fun question. |
| 22:19.13 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@208-47-173-165.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 22:19.34 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@static-67-62-32-95.dsl.cavtel.net) |
| 22:20.06 | sontek | I got disconnected |
| 22:20.26 | sontek | Its not that big of a deal, We had an accidental fire during 4th of July and I'd like to discuss it with a lawyer :P |
| 22:20.30 | herlo | holy crap this connection is slooooooow |
| 22:21.45 | *** join/#utah sontek (n=sontek@208-47-173-165.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 22:21.49 | herlo | this is almost worse than dial-up |
| 22:21.54 | elg | -lart svn properties |
| 22:22.01 | sontek | haha, i'm here for good |
| 22:22.10 | sontek | network admin must be messing with the wireless |
| 22:22.12 | *** part/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13) |
| 22:23.00 | sontek | But if you guys know any lawyer that deals with accidentally burning down a field i'd be thankful =) |
| 22:23.48 | macnewbold | hehe, who's field was it? about how big? |
| 22:23.55 | macnewbold | and what was there before it burned down? |
| 22:24.46 | macnewbold | and one last question: (you can plead the 5th if you want) was the firework that ignited it legal or illegal in utah? |
| 22:24.46 | sontek | It was part of the mountains over by the U, Nothing but grass was there, wind caught one of our fireworks and spark lit it up pretty quick |
| 22:24.55 | sontek | It was legal in Utah |
| 22:25.14 | macnewbold | aren't fireworks banned in that area? |
| 22:25.21 | sontek | yeap |
| 22:25.23 | macnewbold | (because of fire hazards ;) ) |
| 22:25.24 | sontek | didn't know that |
| 22:25.24 | macnewbold | aha |
| 22:25.24 | macnewbold | okay |
| 22:25.32 | sontek | i'm new in Utah :p |
| 22:25.38 | macnewbold | how big was the area that burned? |
| 22:25.44 | sontek | But the law is there for a good reason ;) |
| 22:25.48 | macnewbold | what did it take to put it out? |
| 22:26.07 | macnewbold | were cops/fire dept. called to come out? |
| 22:27.08 | macnewbold | your homeowner's insurance policy (if you have one) might have something about an accidental fire that wasn't at the house |
| 22:27.11 | sontek | It was probably about 100 yards high by 50 yards wide, it wasn't that large |
| 22:27.18 | sontek | Firetrucks were needed |
| 22:27.20 | sontek | I called them |
| 22:27.51 | macnewbold | you're probably in for a fine for using the fireworks in the prohibited area, and paying for the cost of extinguishing the fire, whatever that is |
| 22:28.05 | macnewbold | it's a sad introduction to utah firework laws though |
| 22:28.08 | macnewbold | sorry |
| 22:28.15 | macnewbold | (IANAL) |
| 22:28.25 | maquis | seattle fireworks laws are very simple... none allowed |
| 22:28.36 | maquis | which always makes me surprised that parts of utah allow them |
| 22:28.43 | maquis | because utah is a lot dryer |
| 22:28.49 | macnewbold | hehe, yeah, well, |
| 22:28.55 | macnewbold | a lot of utahns are pyromaniacs |
| 22:28.57 | maquis | but in seattle, if you want to watch fireworks, you go someplace where there's a professional show |
| 22:29.05 | sontek | Yeah, well we did it in a parking lot thinking there is nothing dry about that |
| 22:29.11 | sontek | But then the wind picked up :P |
| 22:30.31 | sontek | I'm trying to avoid 1. having it go on my record 2. jail time :P |
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| 22:33.17 | macnewbold | if anything it would just be a misdemeanor I'm quite sure, and I don't think they'd do jail time as long as you pay the fine |
| 22:33.33 | macnewbold | the monetary penalties are enough of a punishment |
| 22:33.47 | macnewbold | sontek: are you a minor? |
| 22:34.08 | macnewbold | cause that would change things a little, probably |
| 22:34.31 | elg | maquis: I've always been amazed at states with asinine fireworks laws, including utah |
| 22:34.41 | elg | in new mexico you can do just about anything except bottle rockets |
| 22:35.03 | elg | it has more to do with the attitudes of the people than with the tinderbox nature of the state |
| 22:35.10 | elg | as your seattle example attests |
| 22:35.36 | maquis | elg: true |
| 22:36.32 | maquis | elg: although, seattle has had a lot of firework-related fires, and because the areas are rather dense, it's almost always houses that end up burning as a result |
| 22:37.16 | sontek | macnewbold, Well they are charging me with I believe its a class A misdemeanor which has a mex penalty of 1yr in jail |
| 22:37.58 | macnewbold | what's the max fine on a class A? |
| 22:38.26 | macnewbold | you might be able to arrange a plea bargain down to a class B, who knows. A lawyer would be good I think. |
| 22:38.52 | macnewbold | like I said, I don't think they'll do jail time if you pay the fine and have learned your lesson |
| 22:39.08 | rsimpkins | I think it has to do with local tradition. Utah has tons of kids. High powered fireworks and kids do not mix. Hence, strict fireworks rules. |
| 22:40.07 | sontek | macnewbold, $2500 |
| 22:45.16 | *** join/#utah atoponce (i=aaron@gateway/tor/x-1199d1d6e5927020) |
| 22:45.16 | Sargun | Why is my school being such a pain? |
| 22:47.16 | macnewbold | Sargun: what are they doing? |
| 22:47.36 | Sargun | macnewbold, I want to take online classes, but they won't honor the credits |
| 22:47.48 | Sargun | they only honor classes at the local community college |
| 22:47.49 | macnewbold | from the same school, or a different one? |
| 22:48.09 | macnewbold | yeah, some schools have lame transfer policies |
| 22:48.19 | Sargun | different school -- my school doesn't offer online classes |
| 22:48.26 | macnewbold | will they transfer credits from other accredited institutions? |
| 22:48.36 | Sargun | I mean they honor PE classes |
| 22:48.44 | Sargun | macnewbold, its a high school -- hehe |
| 22:48.50 | macnewbold | ah |
| 22:48.54 | macnewbold | well, that's a little different :) |
| 22:48.58 | Sargun | heh |
| 22:49.26 | Sargun | but if you take a class even at a different high school -- you still need to test into it |
| 22:49.27 | macnewbold | if they'll take the local CC, maybe they'll take stuff from other colleges? |
| 22:50.02 | Sargun | macnewbold, they only respect PE classes from other colleges |
| 22:50.39 | macnewbold | only PE classes? |
| 22:50.48 | macnewbold | c'mon, a college is a college when you're comparing it to high school |
| 22:51.02 | vontrapp | ~PE on macnewbold |
| 22:51.12 | macnewbold | you can't tell me that a college calculus class doesn't meet the high schools academic standards... |
| 22:51.21 | macnewbold | do they offer AP classes and such? |
| 22:52.01 | Sargun | macnewbold, their excuse is that they don't want to offer other students an unfair advantage |
| 22:52.11 | Sargun | macnewbold, yeah |
| 22:52.29 | Sargun | they say "its not a way to get ahead -- its a way to catch up" |
| 22:52.32 | macnewbold | advantage over who? anyone who wants to could take classes elsewhere, if they can get accepted, no? |
| 22:52.37 | macnewbold | oh, bologna |
| 22:52.42 | macnewbold | they're just holding you back |
| 22:52.52 | macnewbold | you don't need a diploma anyway... graduate early and start college |
| 22:53.17 | macnewbold | AP classes would be your best bet maybe for getting HS and college credit at the same time |
| 22:53.35 | Sargun | to graduate a semester early you need 40 credits |
| 22:53.54 | macnewbold | sorry, I meant "leave early", not necessarily "graduate early" |
| 22:54.16 | macnewbold | a guy at my high school didn't want to take PE classes and some other general crap, so he didn't, and didn't get a diploma. he went to stanford anyway. :) |
| 22:54.25 | Sargun | lol |
| 22:54.54 | macnewbold | I'm serious. if you've got good test scores, and good grades in the classes you did take at school or college, they'll accept you even without a diploma |
| 22:55.03 | macnewbold | you might also consider taking the GED test right now... |
| 22:55.19 | macnewbold | I had another friend who hated high school, so she took the GED at 16 or 17, and went to college. |
| 22:55.27 | macnewbold | home school students do that kind of thing quite often |
| 22:55.46 | Sargun | I am looking at taking the GED |
| 22:57.49 | sjansen | Oh, my. One of my co-workers just shared his experiences driving in Philly, complete with Google Maps demonstrations. |
| 22:58.10 | sjansen | I-76 in the Philidelphia area is proof that highway designers have a sense of humor. |
| 22:58.10 | elg | I was homeschooled. we did work through an accredited school but basically it's irrelevant |
| 22:58.33 | elg | do well on the ACT, etc., have some good extracurriculars, whatever. take the GED if you like, get into college. graduate |
| 22:58.37 | elg | profit |
| 22:58.40 | maquis | sjansen: do tell |
| 22:58.41 | elg | or go on to grad school |
| 22:58.48 | macnewbold | yeah, sjansen... I'm listening |
| 22:59.12 | macnewbold | Sargun: what grade/age are you right now? |
| 22:59.18 | maquis | macnewbold: some colleges will accept without any high school if you do well on the SAT |
| 22:59.28 | macnewbold | and what is the local Community College? |
| 22:59.30 | Sargun | I am 15, and in 3 weeks I will be in 10th grade |
| 22:59.30 | maquis | i got an offer from UW when i was 12 |
| 22:59.34 | macnewbold | maquis: totally |
| 22:59.36 | macnewbold | oh, that's great |
| 22:59.48 | Sargun | macnewbold, Los Positas in livermore, ca |
| 23:00.03 | macnewbold | Sargun, have you taken any of the SAT, ACT, PSAT, etc. standardized tests? |
| 23:00.06 | maquis | personally, i think going to college at 12 is a bad idea... but a couple years later, it would've been pretty good |
| 23:00.14 | maquis | Sargun: take the SAT |
| 23:00.23 | macnewbold | yeah, by 15 or 16 some students can be mature enough for college |
| 23:00.24 | maquis | you've probably got all the math you need for it |
| 23:00.30 | sjansen | http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Philadelphia,+PA&ie=UTF8&ll=40.064672,-75.321193&spn=0.014041,0.022552&om=1 |
| 23:00.32 | maquis | i had all the math i needed by 11 |
| 23:00.37 | elg | jacob got recruited by MIT for his ACT scores |
| 23:00.49 | macnewbold | calculus at 11? |
| 23:00.52 | maquis | honestly, now that i'm ready to leave college, i think i'd do worse on it |
| 23:00.54 | Sargun | whoa |
| 23:01.09 | maquis | macnewbold: we did algebra starting in 5th grade at my school |
| 23:01.25 | elg | you were at the Bill Gates school for Prodigies right? |
| 23:01.27 | macnewbold | actually, the Univ. of Utah only requires up to College Algebra to graduate with a B.S., and even less for a B.A. (plus a second language) |
| 23:01.29 | maquis | and the SAT really doesn't have calc |
| 23:01.38 | sjansen | http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Philadelphia,+PA&ie=UTF8&om=1&ll=40.01151,-75.20545&spn=0.014052,0.022552 |
| 23:01.41 | macnewbold | no, algebra isn't that bad... that's about when they started us on it too |
| 23:01.46 | maquis | iirc, it only goes through algebra and geometry... maybe a touch of pre-cal |
| 23:01.55 | sjansen | And if you look at some of the stretches of 75, there's a 15 mile penalty for missing your exit. |
| 23:01.56 | macnewbold | yeah, no trig I don't think |
| 23:02.30 | Sargun | I wonder if there is any organization that will give me a diploma early -- so I don't have to petition the school board to let me take my GED |
| 23:03.02 | elg | check your spam box |
| 23:03.16 | elg | you can get a PhD from some spammers. |
| 23:03.18 | macnewbold | some of those spaghetti bowls are pretty bad, sjansen |
| 23:03.21 | Sargun | elg, heh |
| 23:03.30 | macnewbold | Sargun: you have to petition them in order to take it? |
| 23:03.39 | Sargun | macnewbold, yeah |
| 23:03.44 | macnewbold | on what grounds are they restricting access to the GED exam? |
| 23:03.54 | Sargun | macnewbold, I told you that my school is a pain |
| 23:04.02 | Sargun | macnewbold, age |
| 23:04.03 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=mkling@24.144.57.71) |
| 23:04.11 | elg | do you have to take it through them? |
| 23:04.12 | macnewbold | well, most places you can legally drop out at age 16 if you want |
| 23:04.40 | macnewbold | if you're smart enough to take on the GED, and do well, petition them if you have to, it will be worth it. |
| 23:04.42 | rsimpkins | CA GED Reqs: http://www.california-colleges.net/ged.asp |
| 23:04.42 | graphyx | Any idea why my perl program stops sending data to my file after 57k's worth? |
| 23:04.43 | brac | [California Colleges California GED requirements, preparation and testing] |
| 23:04.48 | elg | see if you can't get in touch with some homeschoolers in your area, they (or their parents) might know some loopholes |
| 23:05.03 | graphyx | actually it is 56K |
| 23:05.04 | macnewbold | graphyx: it got tired? |
| 23:05.20 | graphyx | open(DAT,">>$outfile") || die ("Can't open file.\r\n"); |
| 23:05.26 | graphyx | That is the line I use to open it. |
| 23:05.30 | elg | graphyx: because pearls can only get so big |
| 23:05.45 | graphyx | IS it amature night at #utah and I missed the noticed? |
| 23:05.53 | graphyx | s/noticed/notice/ |
| 23:06.09 | rsimpkins | Interesting, compare the CA requirments for the GED above, to the UT reqs: http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/adulted/ged/examinee/eligible.htm |
| 23:06.09 | brac | [Utah GED - Examinee Resources] |
| 23:06.29 | macnewbold | yikes, rsimpkins! that's nuts, you _can't_ take it unless you're 17 and in some special category in CA. that's bad news for Sargun |
| 23:06.33 | Sargun | they highered the age again... |
| 23:06.36 | levi | I think you also meant amateur instead of amature. That, or maybe you meant immature. ;) |
| 23:06.46 | graphyx | levi: you could be right. |
| 23:06.54 | Sargun | macnewbold, they had it at 16 until this year |
| 23:06.55 | elg | every night is immature night |
| 23:07.11 | mheath | Sigh. Considering dropping out to take the GED? |
| 23:07.30 | rsimpkins | Sargun: Go to prison and you can take your GED. :) |
| 23:07.46 | mheath | Let me put my two cents in: If your mind has wondered to this point, where you want to drop out, even if its for genuine reasons, its probably because you get tired of doing homework, you get tired of school. |
| 23:08.00 | macnewbold | okay, so in utah, you could drop out at 17, and with permission from your parents (or a marriage certificate) and a letter proving you're not enrolled in school, you can take the GED |
| 23:08.04 | rsimpkins | So if you are 16 in utah, and drop out, you can take the GED. But if you are in school - you can't. :) |
| 23:08.14 | macnewbold | no, 16 and younger can't take it in utah |
| 23:08.28 | rsimpkins | Oh, right - 17. |
| 23:08.38 | mheath | Your solution is genuine, but your desire is based on the same laziness / lack of motivation to comply with the system as every other highschool dropout out there |
| 23:08.59 | mheath | If you drop out, it won't be long before the same laziness / lack of motivation will apply to your college classe |
| 23:09.02 | mheath | *classes |
| 23:09.18 | mheath | ANd pretty soon you'll be looking for a quick fix to get THAT over with too |
| 23:09.29 | rsimpkins | Hehe, in Alabama you can be a 16 yo drop out and take the GED. |
| 23:09.43 | mheath | "I don't need to finish college! I can get _____ an hour working at ______!" |
| 23:09.46 | elg | mheath: I disagree |
| 23:10.13 | elg | and I've been to college |
| 23:10.24 | mheath | elg, I agree and I've been in a situation very much like this. |
| 23:10.32 | elg | except you haven't been to college |
| 23:10.36 | mheath | When I was in late junior high, I was presented with some accelerated options |
| 23:10.53 | macnewbold | I disagree with mheath too... while there is potential to do that, it isn't always the case |
| 23:10.53 | mheath | The problem was, these accelerated options also required a lot of my own self discipline and work. |
| 23:11.12 | elg | I was homeschooled. we spent 0 time jumping through stupid hoops and lots of time learning extra stuff like computers, music, etc |
| 23:11.15 | macnewbold | many high school students are motivated and want out of the system because it is holding them back, not because they're lazy |
| 23:11.27 | macnewbold | so if college won't hold them back, they'll excel there |
| 23:11.27 | elg | I was at least twice as prepared for college as all of my friends |
| 23:11.48 | graphyx | so no help with Perl here tonight? |
| 23:11.57 | Sargun | you can take the GED without dropping out -- but I don't know why you'd want to do that |
| 23:12.03 | elg | graphyx: probably some kind of buffering |
| 23:12.05 | levi | graphyx: You missed perl help hour earlier. |
| 23:12.13 | graphyx | I see. |
| 23:12.13 | elg | you could always drop out after taking the ged and passing |
| 23:12.24 | Sargun | elg, my parents couldn't afford to home school me until about 2 years ago |
| 23:12.31 | *** join/#utah atoponce (i=aaron@gateway/tor/x-844e3b11ee40dcbe) |
| 23:12.31 | graphyx | so do I have to top writing every 1000 requests and reopen the file? |
| 23:12.37 | *** join/#utah Tene (n=tene@poipu/supporter/slacker/tene) |
| 23:13.28 | mheath | My personal take: if I were an employer, I would NOT trust a highschool dropout, or higher them, unless they showed YEARS of positive choices. |
| 23:13.47 | mheath | Going to highschool is, whether you realize it or not, about 25% complying the system |
| 23:13.50 | Tene | What about someone who didn't know the difference between "hire" And "higher"? |
| 23:14.15 | graphyx | well when you are set up to troll like that who can resist? |
| 23:14.33 | Sargun | Tene, hah |
| 23:14.41 | levi | Only 25% about complying with the system? |
| 23:14.49 | Tene | it was much more than 25% for me |
| 23:15.10 | mheath | I know highschool is not filled with pure explorative learning. But, it teaches you to get work done and apply yourself. |
| 23:15.33 | levi | If some people are to be believed, that's the primary function of the public education system. |
| 23:15.35 | Tene | It didn't teach me that. My teachers all let me slide by because I understood the material. |
| 23:15.45 | Tene | I still have trouble trying to apply myself and just get work done. |
| 23:15.54 | Sargun | Does anyone know of any colleges that will allow you into a undergrad program without a high school degree -- preferably with an online program -- or a satelitte campus in the bay area? |
| 23:15.58 | graphyx | I had to go on a mission and then to college to get good grades. |
| 23:16.01 | elg | mheath: so you are saying you want a comply-with-the-system job? |
| 23:16.11 | elg | that's cool if you do. There are lots of those jobs out there |
| 23:16.18 | graphyx | Sargun: my wife got a degree at PCU without a high school degree. |
| 23:16.18 | levi | elg: Duh, he joined the Marines. |
| 23:16.22 | graphyx | Only got her GED |
| 23:16.55 | levi | elg: Though he wants to run his own business afterwards, IIRC. |
| 23:17.23 | elg | if you're not planning on college then dropping out of HS would definitely be a bad idea |
| 23:17.30 | sjansen | Tene: You mean the difference between "highered" and "raised"? |
| 23:17.59 | mheath | elg, no, I want employees who will go home and get the work done that I assign them |
| 23:18.14 | mheath | I want dedicated, hard workers |
| 23:18.24 | vontrapp | sjansen: yeah, don't miss that 476 junction going east on 76 |
| 23:18.33 | vontrapp | yikes |
| 23:18.33 | mheath | And I'd have trouble categorizing highschool dropouts as that. |
| 23:18.36 | Tene | sjansen: no, I more meant the difference between "your distributed programmy intarweb thing is bad" and "people who join the military are stupid" |
| 23:19.00 | elg | mheath: you want jumping poodles to work for you, fine. I didn't ask who you wanted to work for you |
| 23:19.07 | elg | I asked if you wanted to be a jumping poodle |
| 23:19.26 | vontrapp | home work from a career? |
| 23:19.27 | vontrapp | ick |
| 23:19.35 | sjansen | http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/08/08.html |
| 23:19.36 | macnewbold | Sargun: many colleges have programs for high school students. I did a few different ones at the UofU |
| 23:19.36 | mheath | elg, ever see the movie "A few good men"? |
| 23:19.36 | brac | [Joel on Software] |
| 23:19.47 | elg | yup |
| 23:19.53 | elg | I remember a few jumping poodles in that movie |
| 23:20.06 | elg | isn't that the one about handling truth? |
| 23:20.16 | levi | elg: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH |
| 23:20.34 | vontrapp | Sargun: even if your HS doesn't recognize some college classes, you could still take them and use the credit when you go to college |
| 23:20.37 | elg | I know, that's why I live in my own loony alternate rality |
| 23:20.38 | mheath | elg, the evil person, played by Nicholson, is none the less correct in a point that he makes: Men who work in an infantry position have to be able to comply with orders perfectly and without question. |
| 23:20.53 | elg | without doubt |
| 23:20.57 | elg | so your answer is yes |
| 23:21.08 | levi | elg: You know that grad school is indeed a loony alternate reality, right? ;) |
| 23:21.12 | maquis | mheath: you want to send your employees home with homework? |
| 23:21.14 | maquis | that sucks! |
| 23:21.18 | elg | levi: naturally. that's why I'm here |
| 23:21.52 | mheath | maquis, you know what I meant. :P |
| 23:22.07 | vontrapp | some jobs are intrinsically like that (homework) like designers and such |
| 23:22.14 | elg | vontrapp: good point |
| 23:22.15 | sjansen | Let's see, elg is insanse. As a friend, what can I do to help him? |
| 23:22.18 | sjansen | ~sanitize elg |
| 23:22.26 | emcnabb | ~lart sjansen |
| 23:22.34 | mheath | elg, do you disagree, though? That my unquestioning obeying of orders is bad? |
| 23:22.40 | vontrapp | now he's sanitarily insane |
| 23:22.45 | elg | nope, it's great for what you want to do |
| 23:22.53 | elg | there are different roles people play in society |
| 23:22.59 | elg | we need order followers |
| 23:22.59 | maquis | mheath: well... that's what it sounded like you meant |
| 23:23.10 | maquis | and if that is what you mean, then that scares me |
| 23:23.19 | elg | and we need people who could give a flying monkeytail about what everyone else thinks they should do |
| 23:23.20 | maquis | the whole point of graduating is that i won't have homework again |
| 23:23.59 | maquis | i agree with elg on that... |
| 23:24.03 | vontrapp | maquis: amen |
| 23:24.04 | maquis | we need both types of people |
| 23:24.12 | maquis | and i honestly think that most companies need both types of people |
| 23:24.18 | vontrapp | down with homework! |
| 23:24.24 | elg | you should feel free to be whichever you want to be |
| 23:24.25 | maquis | because the company president isn't always going to be right |
| 23:24.28 | elg | I personally want to be the latter |
| 23:24.41 | mheath | maquis, my business will start off large enough that I personally won't be micromanaging people like that anyway. |
| 23:24.58 | maquis | and if i were a CEO or the president of a company, i'd want my employees to be completely willing to tell me to my face that i'm dead wrong and that if i go down that road, they'll leave |
| 23:25.14 | maquis | because i'd rather have employees like that than ones who'll stay silent and do their job while i lead the company off a cliff |
| 23:25.28 | elg | cool. I'm at 0% battery and compiling and still alive |
| 23:25.38 | sjansen | Or quietly suffer until they all disappear one day. |
| 23:25.50 | levi | elg: Well, we'll know what happened when you suddently disappear. |
| 23:26.12 | mheath | maquis, I didn't say that I was looking for employees that follow me like I have unquestionable authority. I want poeple who are hard workers and dedicated. People who will get the work done. |
| 23:26.13 | elg | nah, I'l just plug in and be back before my tcp session times out |
| 23:26.41 | maquis | mheath: i've known people like that who chose to quite high school early, and go to college instead |
| 23:26.44 | levi | Are you intentionally running your battery down? |
| 23:26.50 | levi | I always plug in if I'm near an outlet. |
| 23:27.18 | maquis | they quit high school because they felt that their education was more important than following the system |
| 23:27.23 | maquis | personally, i think they were right |
| 23:27.28 | levi | maquis: How'd UW find out about you to try to recruit you when you were 11? |
| 23:27.41 | elg | levi: yes, my ibook has been doing something funky the last few days and I read that if you run the battery all the way down it will recalibrate or something |
| 23:27.47 | maquis | levi: because i took the SAT in 7th grade |
| 23:28.06 | levi | maquis: Ah, cool. Did they know how old you were? |
| 23:28.11 | maquis | through a program that johns hopkins ran for students who got certain scores on the state standardized tests |
| 23:28.15 | maquis | levi: yup |
| 23:28.20 | levi | Interesting. |
| 23:28.26 | maquis | UW has a special program for students up to the age of 13 |
| 23:28.30 | elg | there, it died. it's been cycling between charging and "calculating" for a few minutes when plugging in recently |
| 23:28.32 | emcnabb | one of my coworkers skipped high school and went right to college; she's very smart |
| 23:28.43 | maquis | they cover all of high school in a term, and then start you on college |
| 23:28.54 | maquis | i actually know a couple kids who went through that program |
| 23:29.16 | levi | I always got really good standardized test scores when I was in elementary school. I think my accelerated development slowed down a bit by Jr. High, though. |
| 23:29.17 | elg | all of high school in one term? even two proms? |
| 23:29.20 | maquis | personally, i needed to have some experiences that i had in high school before i would be ready for something like that |
| 23:29.31 | maquis | elg: well, they skipped all the social stuff |
| 23:29.42 | *** part/#utah suspence (n=spencer@208.187.196.34) |
| 23:29.44 | maquis | just covered all the classwork that you'd need for college |
| 23:30.03 | maquis | i considered the program... but looking back, i'm glad i didn't do it |
| 23:30.37 | levi | It would be pretty difficult for a kid socialized in public schools to jump that far ahead. |
| 23:31.13 | mheath | 34 on the ACT. Never took *the* SAT. |
| 23:31.36 | levi | I think a kid raised in a mixed-age social group might have a better chance at doing well without high school, though. |
| 23:31.52 | mheath | Hmm, I'm wondering how my laptop will react to being unplugged |
| 23:31.58 | mheath | its at about a 100% load. |
| 23:33.57 | levi | I had a friend who finished high school, though he could have easily dropped out and gone to college early. He got a perfect score on the math portion of the SAT. He then proceeded to flunk out of CWRU. |
| 23:34.04 | mheath | My grades weren't anything beyond mediocre, though. |
| 23:34.11 | mheath | I had trouble applying myself for a long time. |
| 23:34.16 | mheath | I ended up with a 3.0 GPA |
| 23:34.28 | mheath | my test scores are high enough to get into a nice university, my GPA isn't. |
| 23:34.37 | mheath | I once had aspirations to get into MIT. |
| 23:34.43 | maquis | levi: most of the people doing the program were either home-schooled or private-schooled |
| 23:35.14 | mheath | Not like that will ever happen now, though. |
| 23:35.20 | maquis | *shrug* |
| 23:35.33 | maquis | i didn't think i had a chance at getting into harvey mudd |
| 23:35.54 | levi | mheath: You never know if you don't apply. |
| 23:35.56 | maquis | i've never gotten that great of grades in high school or college |
| 23:36.07 | maquis | but you never know |
| 23:36.13 | vontrapp | -lart grade |
| 23:36.15 | vontrapp | s |
| 23:36.27 | mheath | levi, heh, a little late for that now :) |
| 23:37.00 | levi | You could always apply when you finish your time in the Marines. |
| 23:41.43 | Tene | mheath: I got into BYU with a 34 ACT and 2.8 GPA |
| 23:41.52 | Tene | and no extra-curricular activities at all |
| 23:48.49 | Sargun | Has anyone here had experience with UoPx? |
| 23:49.37 | goozbach | GAA |
| 23:50.17 | Sargun | goozbach, what happened? |
| 23:52.04 | mheath | Tene, BYU != MIT :) |
| 23:53.07 | Tene | 17:34 < mheath> my test scores are high enough to get into a nice university, my GPA isn't. |
| 23:53.30 | Tene | I thought BYU counted as a nice university |
| 23:53.35 | Tene | although I don't know much about others |
| 23:53.39 | Tene | so maybe I'm very wrong |
| 23:54.16 | goozbach | Sargun: I just finished watching season 1 of Stargate Atlantis |
| 23:54.20 | goozbach | it's a cliffhanger |
| 23:55.16 | maquis | mheath: harvey mudd is a good technical university |
| 23:55.19 | maquis | well |
| 23:55.25 | maquis | technically, it's a college because it's small |
| 23:55.28 | maquis | but yeah... |
