| 00:13.26 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 00:28.58 | tensai | -lart elg |
| 00:29.15 | Tene | -lart butter |
| 00:38.37 | maquis | http://www.italy-hotels-hootl.com/cgi-bin/plview.cgi?search=&button.x=0&button.y=0 |
| 00:39.08 | maquis | that's an awful lot of information to hand out about your webserver... |
| 00:39.21 | maquis | is bloglines broken for anyone else? |
| 00:39.47 | maquis | oh |
| 00:39.47 | maquis | nm |
| 01:09.42 | findlay | any irssi gurus here? |
| 01:09.51 | Tene | kinda |
| 01:10.12 | findlay | how do I join a channel on a different network? |
| 01:10.24 | findlay | I've already connected to the other server |
| 01:10.40 | findlay | irssi's documentation is just dumb sometimes |
| 01:10.57 | Tene | I keep a server window open and switch between them with ctrl+x |
| 01:11.07 | Tene | but |
| 01:11.16 | Tene | you can /join -server-tag #channelname |
| 01:11.22 | Tene | like /join -freenode #utah |
| 01:12.00 | findlay | yeah and <server-tag> is different from url, I've seemed to have learned |
| 01:12.10 | Tene | nodnod |
| 01:12.16 | Tene | /server to find out |
| 01:12.39 | findlay | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:13.01 | ScytheBlade1 | <PacketScan> for what.. exactly? think station booting? Unattended network install. Diskless clients. etc..etc.. |
| 01:13.03 | ScytheBlade1 | err, sorry |
| 01:13.09 | ScytheBlade1 | http://goodthink.com/writing/view_stories.cfm?id=11&page_id=2 |
| 01:13.14 | ScytheBlade1 | There we go |
| 01:51.44 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 02:10.33 | maquis | ouch |
| 02:10.42 | maquis | i'm so glad i use good software |
| 02:19.55 | tensai | maquis: good to hear. were you going to explain? |
| 02:20.40 | maquis | tensai: just was talking to someone working on windows who has to do a task that involves replacing data in a whole bunch of files.. |
| 02:20.48 | maquis | he's doing it manually |
| 02:21.53 | tensai | sed, sed, sed! |
| 02:21.58 | maquis | yeah |
| 02:22.03 | maquis | that's what i suggested |
| 02:22.18 | tensai | those who fail to understand unix are doomed to reimpliment it. poorly. |
| 02:22.19 | maquis | he decided that it would be too hard to learn how to use sed |
| 02:23.14 | Tene | maquis: that's what you "sed"? |
| 02:23.50 | Tene | ibot: hide me from maquis |
| 02:23.59 | ibot | ACTION gets a huge black sheet and covers me from maquis with it so that nobody can see what me from maquis is doing! |
| 02:24.18 | maquis | ~lart Tene |
| 02:24.58 | Tene | ~quote qegy |
| 02:25.20 | maquis | ~quote AMZN |
| 02:25.31 | maquis | mmm |
| 02:26.04 | Tene | ~quote mqis |
| 02:28.52 | Tene | ~quote qegy.pk |
| 02:29.23 | Tene | I've got a scam mail here advertising QEGY |
| 02:38.46 | ScytheBlade1 | I get a lot of those |
| 02:39.09 | ScytheBlade1 | I've recieved a lot concerning energy companies lately |
| 02:40.12 | Tene | Yeah, this is an energy company. I don't actually know enough about stock markets and investing and such to know if ibot not recognizing it means anything. |
| 02:42.16 | maquis | http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html <-- /me chuckles |
| 02:42.18 | brac | [Is Your Son a Computer Hacker?] |
| 02:42.24 | tensai | it's probably not listed on the NYSE or NASDAQ. could be on another exchange or just unlisted |
| 02:42.31 | Tene | m'eh |
| 02:43.12 | maquis | according to the signs shown here, i show at least half the signs of being a computer hacker (aside from the fact that i'm not a boy) |
| 02:43.31 | tensai | or so you say |
| 02:45.04 | maquis | apparently, asking your parents to switch away from "trusted and responsible Internet Service Providers, such as AOL" is a sign that your'e a hacker |
| 02:45.29 | Tene | "betrayed the principles" on that page links to Bill Clinton's profile at whitehouse.gov |
| 02:46.02 | maquis | flash is hacker software? |
| 02:46.18 | maquis | if you're installing software on your computer, you're a hacker |
| 02:46.57 | tensai | I'm pretty sure that's satire there, maquis |
| 02:47.10 | tensai | either that or this guy is drinking drano |
| 02:47.10 | findlay | what is the AOL? |
| 02:47.15 | maquis | tensai: i hope it's satire |
| 02:47.17 | findlay | what is isp? |
| 02:47.26 | findlay | what is tensai? |
| 02:47.35 | maquis | i'm slightly concerned, though... even if it's intended as satire, i can see most parents believing it |
| 02:48.16 | maquis | honestly, i know people who would believe this stuff |
| 02:48.23 | maquis | in fact, i'm betting my mom would |
| 02:48.56 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@208.187.198.66) |
| 02:49.28 | findlay | maquis: what are they trying to do? Scare people into not doing stuff with *their* computers by redefining black hat hackers? |
| 02:49.40 | maquis | findlay: something like that |
| 02:49.45 | findlay | stupid |
| 02:49.58 | tensai | maquis: you see that it's posted in "Internet Idiocy", right? |
| 02:50.05 | elg | I think it's a joke |
| 02:50.09 | maquis | tensai: sure.. |
| 02:50.14 | maquis | but i still think some people would believe it |
| 02:50.17 | maquis | plenty of people |
| 02:50.28 | maquis | at least the first half of it |
| 02:50.36 | maquis | the second half gets a bit weird... |
| 02:50.38 | findlay | people who don't know what black hat hackers are |
| 02:50.42 | tensai | people fall for 419 scams. there are lots of uninformed and moronic people out there. |
| 02:50.55 | vontrapp | flash pages are a joke |
| 02:51.00 | elg | the people that believe it are already lost |
| 02:51.02 | maquis | tensai: yeah... and lots of people for who the word "hacker" is scary and will cause them to believe whatever they hear |
| 02:51.05 | tensai | flashblock++ |
| 02:51.32 | maquis | elg: a lot of computer-illiterate parents would likely believe the first 4 items on this list |
| 02:51.33 | findlay | tensai: adblockplus does flash + adblock |
| 02:52.02 | tensai | findlay: I've tried. not quite the same. |
| 02:52.12 | elg | i don't like subtle satire that requires technical knowledge to recognize it's satire |
| 02:52.19 | maquis | elg: yeah... |
| 02:52.19 | elg | and this is borderline |
| 02:52.22 | maquis | that's why i don't like this |
| 02:52.31 | findlay | tensai: I'm lazy and I just installed any old ad blocker and left it at that (: |
| 02:52.34 | maquis | sure... the one on quake and "lunix" may be a bit over the edge |
| 02:52.37 | Tene | http://www.adequacy.org/special/mission.html |
| 02:52.37 | brac | [Adequacy Mission Statement] |
| 02:52.54 | maquis | but the first 4 items are things that plenty of people would be willing to believe |
| 02:53.09 | elg | I think if you click more than two links it becomes obvious though |
| 02:53.42 | maquis | my mom was freaked out that i'm interested in reading various security-related books... and that i had heard of things like phone phreaking |
| 02:53.49 | tensai | maquis: if it showed up on Parenting's website I would be concerned |
| 02:53.53 | maquis | and that i'd heard of kevin mitnick and such |
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| 02:54.41 | findlay | the comments are great |
| 02:54.52 | elg | nothing like freaking out parents |
| 02:55.05 | maquis | elg: yeah... except that i don't mean to |
| 02:55.42 | vontrapp | did you tell her that's what you learn about in shcool? |
| 02:55.58 | elg | honestly, if a parent is freaked out by a childs legit pursuits, then that parent needs to do a little homework |
| 02:56.38 | elg | or at least throw up hands and play the trust card |
| 02:56.57 | tensai | elg: assuming said child has earned the trust card |
| 02:57.17 | elg | my mom wouldn't know OS X from a VAX. She just takes our word for it when we spout on about computers |
| 02:57.20 | elg | :) |
| 02:57.20 | maquis | elg: yeah... i explained stuff to my mom and explained to her that i'm interested in learning about security because i want to learn how to secure computers.. not because i want to break into them |
| 02:57.28 | maquis | that resolved things |
| 02:57.50 | maquis | but i can imagine a lot of parents just going crazy about stuff like that |
| 02:58.06 | elg | my dad otoh keeps up with things at a high level and so we enjoy talking about linux etc |
| 02:58.19 | maquis | elg: my dad tries to keep up with stuff |
| 02:58.37 | maquis | i don't think he gets all of it, but he likes to ask questions about stuff and learn about computer stuff :) |
| 02:58.44 | elg | tensai: yes, well that's another thing entirely. :) kids that haven't earned the trust card have probably already freaked out their parents. what's another aspect? |
| 02:59.10 | maquis | (i still hven't convinced him to learn how to use the terminal on his mac, but oh well) |
| 02:59.16 | Armadillio | Utah... |
| 02:59.31 | Armadillio | AAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! |
| 02:59.33 | *** part/#utah Armadillio (n=coleman@66.101.23.86) |
| 02:59.34 | tensai | my dad has a mac that he enjoys, but I doubt he's used the terminal |
| 02:59.45 | tensai | guess he had a rocket to catch |
| 02:59.51 | findlay | heh |
| 03:00.22 | elg | -seen dilvie |
| 03:00.22 | brac | dilvie was last seen 13 hours, 39 minutes and 57 seconds ago, quiting IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 03:01.13 | tensai | elg: apparently he's avoiding you. or has some sort of real life. |
| 03:02.33 | elg | I think he's nocturnal and I'm not |
| 03:02.41 | elg | at least in his irc habits. |
| 03:05.27 | mheath | My dad is very illiterate when it comes to computers and what I do with them |
| 03:05.47 | mheath | I find this really sad, given my dads previous experience with computers, 20+ years ago. |
| 03:06.19 | mheath | An adept programmer in several languages, and some machine's machine language, as well as some assembly. |
| 03:06.40 | mheath | He designed modules for computer systems on guided missiles |
| 03:06.53 | elg | i wouldn't call him illiterate then |
| 03:07.09 | elg | it's very common for people with that kind of history to not give a toot about PCs |
| 03:07.37 | mheath | elg, he used to know what he was doing with PCs, though! |
| 03:07.56 | mheath | I still have low density 5.25 disks of his with MS-DOS 2.0 on them, turbopascal, etc. |
| 03:08.31 | *** join/#utah vontrapp_ (n=von@66.7.119.3) |
| 03:08.32 | mheath | I learned to program using a book he had......it was a compilation of all the BASIC games that had been submitted to a magazine over the years |
| 03:08.34 | elg | even RMS might one day just decide to make his living as a tour guide in south america some day |
| 03:09.35 | mheath | He uses AOL to browse the web in (It's not needed, as we have Comcast...he insists on using their app) and his laptop runs at 1/4 of its potential speed because he has so much fluff and crap |
| 03:11.54 | mheath | We have this old two-board Motorola 6800 (not 68000) computer |
| 03:12.03 | mheath | a keypad assembly input and LED output |
| 03:12.06 | vontrapp_ | whatever happened to the simple website that presented standard information in standard form? |
| 03:12.21 | maquis | vontrapp_: it died |
| 03:12.29 | maquis | flash and javascript ate it |
| 03:12.43 | elg | -lart vontrapp_ |
| 03:13.22 | mheath | vontrapp, take a look at the XHTML spec, and then you'll start to get more and more frustrated about how peoples stupid use of XHTML severely dampens the potential of the internet. |
| 03:13.35 | vontrapp | can't just give me a picture... have to put it in some java crap that completely freezes my browser |
| 03:14.52 | mheath | What saddens me the most though.... |
| 03:15.39 | mheath | The hundreds of different standards and major incompatabilities that exist between every different piece of information and program out there |
| 03:16.23 | mheath | You have to have the right version of the right program to open a given file |
| 03:18.59 | *** join/#utah goozbach (n=goozbach@207.108.175.219) |
| 03:20.35 | goozbach | ibot: no kidding |
| 03:20.44 | goozbach | ibot: onjoin #utah sjansen |
| 03:26.07 | maquis | goozbach: have you had a chance to look at the drivespace issue yet? |
| 03:26.23 | goozbach | maquis: forgot abt it till just now |
| 03:27.29 | mheath | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=36099539665548298&q=Google |
| 03:27.33 | mheath | has everyone seen that? |
| 03:30.05 | Tene | What is it? |
| 03:30.20 | mheath | A "Microsoft Redesigns the IPod Package" parody |
| 03:30.27 | mheath | what would happen if Microsoft had to design the Ipod package |
| 03:30.39 | Tene | I heard a rumor that that was made by some people at Microsoft. |
| 03:30.50 | mheath | yeah |
| 04:30.57 | mheath | Time for sleep. |
| 04:30.58 | mheath | Goodnight. |
| 04:55.02 | Supaplex | someone stole my weekend! garrr! - oh wait, it was me for once. |
| 05:05.38 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 05:05.38 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 05:18.58 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@12.184.89.194) |
| 05:20.07 | maquis | ~convert 100 fahrenheit to celsius |
| 05:20.22 | maquis | ~convert 100 farenheit to celsius |
| 05:20.55 | maquis | ibot: help convert |
| 06:25.59 | TimRiker | maquis: does not (yet?) handle temp. |
| 06:26.23 | TimRiker | ~convert 60 miles/hour to inches/second |
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| 13:46.16 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 13:47.11 | elg | sweet. 70% chance heavy rain |
| 13:47.14 | elg | high of 30 |
| 13:47.18 | elg | good day. :) |
| 14:01.12 | mheath | elg, where are you? O.o |
| 14:01.23 | elg | las cruces |
| 14:02.46 | mheath | Wow, high of 30 in New Mexico. |
| 14:03.08 | emcnabb | we're starting to feel the heat wave you guys had last week |
| 14:04.24 | mheath | elg, I'm assuming you're using celsius. Or all of new mexico suddenly jumped quite a few latitudes to the north :) |
| 14:04.47 | elg | yes, always celsius |
| 14:05.05 | mheath | ~lart celsius |
| 14:05.32 | mheath | elg, were you the CS teacher/professor? |
| 14:05.46 | elg | teaching a class this term, yes |
| 14:06.02 | elg | probably me |
| 14:06.35 | mheath | If this instance was you, I was just going to mention that your curriculum sounded a lot like it was on par with the AP program for highschool students. Good beginning programming class. |
| 14:06.46 | elg | thanks |
| 14:07.12 | mheath | I started talking to some CS professors at Weber State University.....it saddened me how little they actually know about computers, beyond the realm of programming in windows. |
| 14:07.48 | mheath | We went to a programming competition (IBM Robocode) up there.....they were giving away some used Sun computers as a prize. |
| 14:08.01 | mheath | The CS department chair kept saying they they run "Unix 10" |
| 14:09.44 | elg | the cs dept here is refreshingly unix-based |
| 14:10.00 | elg | they do have some windows machines that are sometimes used, but mostly it's all linux/unix |
| 14:10.55 | *** join/#utah RyanE (i=Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 14:11.25 | mheath | I've decided that if I ever do attend college, it will be practical. |
| 14:11.42 | mheath | IE, I'll attend a class on a given subject because I want to learn about that subject, or because it interests me |
| 14:11.51 | mheath | Not so I can work towards some degree I flash at employers. |
| 14:13.23 | elg | then you'll miss some of the best classes |
| 14:19.48 | *** join/#utah EvilHerbivore (n=dave@71-35-216-249.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 14:20.00 | mheath | elg, why do you say that? |
| 14:20.36 | EvilHerbivore | msg TheTiGuR helloooo? |
| 14:20.49 | mheath | +/ |
| 14:21.00 | EvilHerbivore | ack |
| 14:29.44 | *** join/#utah mheath_ (i=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:33.49 | elg | EvilHerbivore: fraternizing with carnivores are we? |
| 14:35.10 | elg | mheath: because some of the best classes you'll have are classes you'd never take of your own volition |
| 14:36.02 | elg | and more than half the point of a college education is breadth. if you're just going to take what's interesting or applicable then go to a trade school |
| 14:40.11 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=jayce@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 14:40.11 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 14:47.06 | mheath_ | elg, I'm not concerned about a degree. I mainly want to take classes on business management, because I have plans to start and manage a business. |
| 14:48.58 | Supaplex | I agree with mheath_. Tell us about the business :) |
| 14:49.56 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (i=Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 14:50.00 | mheath_ | I have before. Its a computer software and hardware business. |
| 14:50.42 | mheath_ | Specializing in GNU/Linux-based desktop products, and advanced tablet computers. |
| 14:52.53 | Supaplex | yummy |
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| 15:23.04 | tensai | -lart Jayce^ |
| 15:23.21 | tensai | brac: ooh, you're evil |
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| 15:33.14 | Jayce^ | that is bad |
| 15:34.03 | goozbach | ouch! |
| 15:34.42 | goozbach | hmm leftovers... |
| 15:35.01 | goozbach | I made this KILLER pork roast yesterday |
| 15:36.06 | goozbach | stuffed it full of garlic, rubbed it down with some olive oil and kosher salt, seared it in a hot skillet, and put it in the crock pot with some carrots and potatoes and a packet of lipton onion soup |
| 15:36.24 | goozbach | let it cook for a good 5 hours |
| 15:36.37 | goozbach | it was fall apart good |
| 15:36.48 | redbeard1 | that sounds awesome |
| 15:37.11 | goozbach | I took out the veggies and meat |
| 15:37.21 | goozbach | and made a gravy with the liquid |
| 15:37.59 | goozbach | I reduced it a bit, added a WHOLE BUNCH of rosemary, some lime, and a tablespoon of brown sugar |
| 15:38.12 | goozbach | oh and flour to thicken it. |
| 15:38.19 | goozbach | whh it was gooood! |
| 15:40.03 | redbeard1 | brown sugar in your gravy? |
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| 16:04.11 | goozbach | redbeard1: yup |
| 16:04.25 | goozbach | I wanted sweet with the rosemary |
| 16:19.54 | levi | Heh, adequacy.org |
| 16:20.16 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 16:20.24 | levi | maquis: That was troll central back in the day. The whole point was to make a playground for people who enjoyed trolling. |
| 16:24.52 | levi | So, I'm back from Yellowstone. |
| 16:35.41 | redbeard1 | levi: how long were you in yellowstone? |
| 16:37.05 | levi | Drove to West Yellowstone on Friday, toured the park on Saturday and a little bit of Sunday, then drove home last night. |
| 16:37.36 | redbeard1 | good times |
| 16:38.01 | \me | how do you see the last person that addressed you in irssi? |
| 16:38.02 | levi | My parents were there because my dad has a conference this week at a hotel there. |
| 16:40.09 | redbeard1 | you know, i've never been inside of yellowstone |
| 16:40.18 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@otherlab.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:40.52 | \me | elg: got typo 4 working - had to manually copy the migrate folder over from the gems directory |
| 16:41.01 | \me | not sure why install wasn't doing that |
| 16:41.15 | \me | there are still a few issues, but I can at least get into the admin now |
| 16:41.24 | \me | the new admin is much prettier |
| 16:41.41 | levi | Heh heh. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/07/29.html |
| 16:41.43 | brac | [Joel on Software] |
| 16:42.31 | findlay | there's a lot of noise out there that is passed off as music |
| 16:42.40 | findlay | just thought I'd let everyone know |
| 16:43.13 | redbeard1 | findlay: example? |
| 16:43.51 | levi | redbeard1: Anything but classical. ;) |
| 16:43.51 | findlay | the stuff this guy is playing next door very loudly |
| 16:45.23 | redbeard1 | heh. right on cue, jane's addiction pops up on my playlist. i'm sure a few people here would just call that noise. |
| 16:48.33 | emcnabb | here goes Findlay |
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| 16:49.49 | elg | levi: funny |
| 16:50.25 | elg | and interesting that he then pokes fun at bush and somehow believes the insurance company is stupid because of bush |
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| 17:11.50 | \me | irc is stupid because of bush |
| 17:11.58 | \me | there, I said it |
| 17:12.00 | \me | feels better |
| 17:12.55 | elg | so we started up the genealogy machine again yesterday |
| 17:13.28 | elg | gramps isn't ready for prime time if only because you can't export only some of your data. so we went back to paf (hooray for vmware) and started consolidating all the gedcoms and paf files |
| 17:14.40 | \me | I'm going to write my AJAX genealogy app here one of these days |
| 17:14.41 | elg | i was hoping with some amount of care I might not end up with a monster database with thousands of duplicates |
| 17:14.57 | elg | but no luck there. |
| 17:14.58 | \me | elg: wait for the next version of PAF |
| 17:15.10 | elg | man paf's match and merge feature is really really impossiblet o use |
| 17:15.10 | \me | it will all be consolidated (to an extent) |
| 17:15.17 | elg | how do you mean? |
| 17:15.54 | \me | I'm not completely sure of the details - I think even the church is trying to work them out, but their plan is to have a server-based model that can sync onto your machine somehow |
| 17:16.11 | \me | when I interviewed with them they were mentioning AJAX as a possibility |
| 17:16.20 | \me | but not sure if that's the path they're going |
| 17:16.51 | \me | Essentially what OneGreatFamily.com is doing is what their plan is |
| 17:17.20 | \me | The new FamilySearch.org is mostly written already and is doing some of that on their test servers |
| 17:17.36 | redbeard1 | jesse: you mean what onedysfunctionalfamily is claiming they do? |
| 17:17.41 | \me | redbeard1: yeah |
| 17:17.52 | elg | i've heard a little bit about it, and all I can say is "we'll see" |
| 17:17.56 | \me | but better, and hosted by the church with all their existing records |
| 17:18.31 | \me | elg: yeah - I'm not sure I fully want to work there after dealing with the PAF guys - they were a little flakey, and not very familiar with OSS despite advertising it everywhere |
| 17:18.53 | elg | based on their fumbling of IGI, AncestralFile, GEDCOM, and every other genealogy project they've undertaken (except PAF which is pretty good except for its match and merge dialog), I'm not hopeful |
| 17:19.11 | elg | PAF is only a good windows app because it was based on Ancestral Quest. But the original DOS PAF was pretty good too |
| 17:19.18 | \me | I really hope they move towards the AJAX route |
| 17:19.24 | \me | not sure if they have the expertise for that though |
| 17:19.28 | elg | and a web app doesn't sound fun to me |
| 17:19.37 | jsmith | What does AJAX have to do with it? |
| 17:19.45 | \me | they didn't seem to know who they want to hire at the time |
| 17:20.09 | \me | jsmith: AJAX is mostly client based - it would do what PAF does currently, but actually talk to a server this time |
| 17:20.19 | elg | i don't want it to talk to a server |
| 17:20.26 | \me | elg: why not? |
| 17:20.40 | elg | have you ever browsed ancestral file? |
| 17:20.51 | \me | yeah |
| 17:20.53 | elg | and seen 5 copies of yourself. your own living self of which they have church records |
| 17:20.53 | jsmith | \me: I know what AJAX is, thanks... I'm just wondering what that has to do with a good, solid family history program |
| 17:21.06 | elg | now imagine all your ancestors with limited information. the prospect is disheartening at the least |
| 17:21.26 | elg | no thanks, I'll keep my own DB |
| 17:21.34 | \me | jsmith: the best magic needs to happen on the server, but you still need a nice client to talk to that magic |
| 17:21.43 | neybar_work | yeah AJAX, for all it's market hype, is just a presentation technique. It isn't magical or anything. |
| 17:22.03 | \me | elg: their plan is to still allow you to keep your own copies - it will just be stored on their servers this time |
| 17:22.08 | \me | maybe your own machine |
| 17:22.10 | jsmith | \me: OK, I realize that you're all about a client-server relationship -- but unless the client is a web browser (yuck), then I don't see any AJAx. |
| 17:22.11 | \me | or both |
| 17:22.40 | elg | just in time for laptops at cemeteries without wireless |
| 17:22.41 | \me | jsmith: yes, the client could be a web browser |
| 17:22.41 | elg | yuck |
| 17:22.41 | jsmith | Why would you want it to be? |
| 17:22.41 | \me | and I don't see the problem with that |
| 17:22.41 | \me | Google is handling it fine |
| 17:22.55 | elg | google is a simple search enging, and a pretty simple email program |
| 17:22.58 | jsmith | Sorry, but the people I know that are big into PAF don't even have an internet connection most of the time. |
| 17:23.01 | \me | universal installs - little to support other than one version |
| 17:23.31 | \me | elg: ever used google spreadsheets? |
| 17:23.40 | elg | nope. should I? |
| 17:24.03 | \me | elg: I use it - beats any MS product for normal spreadsheet use |
| 17:24.09 | elg | gmail is astounding but still doesn't compare to a GUI mail prog |
| 17:24.22 | elg | or even to mutt |
| 17:24.27 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@65.214.148.70) |
| 17:24.44 | \me | elg: I disagree there - may have fewer features, but doesn't mean it's not better |
| 17:24.52 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@otherlab.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:25.01 | herlo | so how was the bbq? |
| 17:25.10 | neybar_work | have you tried using gmail with out an internet connection lately? |
| 17:25.12 | levi | \me is clearly delusional. |
| 17:25.20 | elg | whatever. you go on deluding yourself to think that you can do as much with a web browser as you can with qt |
| 17:25.33 | levi | ~jinx elg |
| 17:25.45 | \me | elg: there are few things nowadays, and web browsers are starting to allow more and more |
| 17:25.47 | redbeard1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:26.09 | \me | redbeard1: I know a lot about MVC - don't need RoR for it though |
| 17:26.11 | neybar_work | agreed. As far as web mail goes, gmail is king. But it doesn't come close to most GUI's. I'll take kmail any day over gmail |
| 17:26.15 | elg | jsmith is right, going server-based is a Bad Idea |
| 17:26.22 | \me | Jifty and Catalyst are just as good |
| 17:26.24 | elg | not only do 90% of genealogy grandmas not have the internet |
| 17:26.34 | elg | but 100% of african genealogy grandmas don't have the internet |
| 17:26.52 | jsmith | elg: Amen! |
| 17:26.52 | elg | substitute your favorite 3rd world |
| 17:26.58 | \me | elg: I disagree - I'd rather someone else worry about my backups and matching and merging. I don't want to have to have a nicer computer to do all the heavy work |
| 17:27.03 | redbeard1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:27.18 | jsmith | \me: But are they really gonna do the matching and merging in the background, without my input? |
| 17:27.25 | elg | dude, match and merge is not a computationally intensive thing |
| 17:27.37 | \me | redbeard1: I work on interfaces for the company I'm at - I'm very familiar with interfaces |
| 17:27.38 | elg | the day when I can trust the computer to do match and merge on its own, maybe |
| 17:27.50 | jsmith | \me: And why can't they do that if I just upload my file, without forcing me to use a web browser as a client? |
| 17:27.51 | \me | jsmith: no |
| 17:28.02 | elg | but right now it's 5 minutes of me making sure the computer isn't pulling a fast one and 5 seconds of it bringing up tottally irrelevant matches |
| 17:28.38 | elg | any program that even offers to automatically match and merge is getting the boot |
| 17:28.39 | \me | jsmith: why have to worry about downloading and installing an entire application on your computer when the browser can do it automatically for you |
| 17:28.51 | elg | unless they have a nice scientific paper that I can read about why I should trust it |
| 17:28.57 | \me | elg: agreed - there definitely needs to be some user control |
| 17:29.05 | \me | I'm not proposing they do it all for you |
| 17:29.26 | \me | OGF had some decent ways of handling that to an extent |
| 17:29.32 | elg | ha |
| 17:29.35 | \me | it could still be better though |
| 17:30.08 | elg | i happen to know the church has some very smart people working on these problems. I hope that they can make some progress and that the good bits survive the red tape |
| 17:30.16 | elg | and the marketthink |
| 17:30.19 | jsmith | \me: There are two different things here you're arguing, which happen to be somewhat orthogonal to each other: 1) Web guis vs. a downloadable program and 2) Online operation vs. offline operation |
| 17:30.46 | \me | jsmith: I'm not arguing against offline operation |
| 17:30.53 | \me | that needs to be an option as well |
| 17:31.13 | \me | I think encouraging online operation would make support of such a product much easier though |
| 17:31.15 | jsmith | \me: As for the web gui vs. downloadable program argument, each has their place. As a long time programmer, I know the advantages of both. But in this particular application, most users aren't online, especially at the time they're doing their work. |
| 17:31.43 | \me | jsmith: hence a sync mechanism would be needed |
| 17:31.52 | \me | most people have some sort of an internet connection still |
| 17:31.58 | jsmith | Doubt it. |
| 17:32.06 | neybar_work | most people Don't have internet access |
| 17:32.10 | \me | jsmith: have stats to prove it? |
| 17:32.24 | jsmith | \me: Nope, just anecdotal evidence. |
| 17:32.27 | elg | i think the burden of proof is on you |
| 17:32.30 | \me | from what I saw the church didn't even have stats on that |
| 17:32.31 | jsmith | \me: Do you have stats? |
| 17:32.34 | redbeard1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:32.43 | \me | most family history centers have internet connections |
| 17:32.54 | macnewbold | there is at the very least a very significant segment of genealogy enthusiasts who do not have an always-on internet connection, |
| 17:32.55 | elg | people are born without internet. therefore you must prove that they have it, not the other way around |
| 17:33.02 | jsmith | \me: Sorry to break it to you, but most family history work doesn't take place in the family history centers. |
| 17:33.18 | macnewbold | so being constantly connected to use the system would be difficult, and alienate a lot of users |
| 17:33.25 | jsmith | \me: In fact, much of the family history work is done by people who have never been in a family history center |
| 17:33.28 | \me | jsmith: agreed, but people still have an option if you force them to an internet connection |
| 17:33.29 | macnewbold | internet access usually costs money, too |
| 17:33.34 | \me | "people will come" |
| 17:33.40 | tensai | I heard the other day (on the Daily Show?) that 1/2 the US doesn't have access to Internet |
| 17:33.43 | elg | people will laugh |
| 17:33.46 | elg | and go somewhere else |
| 17:34.00 | \me | elg: I disagree if the product is quality |
| 17:34.11 | elg | quality != I have to go to the FHC to use it |
| 17:34.37 | findlay | anybody know what the FC5 gvim package is called? |
| 17:34.44 | \me | elg: internet is not very expensive - probably even cheaper than having to maintain the hardware for hosting it yourself |
| 17:34.55 | elg | yeah, right |
| 17:35.13 | neybar_work | there is a significant sector of genealogists that aren't LDS. Those folks aren't going to feel very comfortable about having to track down a FHC to do their family history |
| 17:35.21 | elg | internet is a significant part of my monthly bills |
| 17:35.21 | \me | I think we underestimate the power of the church moving in that direction can have on peoples' computer habits |
| 17:35.27 | redbeard1 | tensai: you mean they don't have the projects wired yet? or other ghetto areas? GASP! |
| 17:35.30 | \me | many people have computers only for genealogy |
| 17:35.54 | \me | elg: $20/mo is? |
| 17:36.02 | redbeard1 | \me: many have computers only for pr0n. what's yer point? |
| 17:36.05 | \me | dialup is only $10 or less |
| 17:36.25 | elg | and you want people to use your client/server program over dialup? |
| 17:36.35 | \me | redbeard1: if genealogy required an internet connection and a cheaper computer they would get the internet connection just for genealogy |
| 17:36.43 | jsmith | AJAX over dialup -- ever actually tried it? |
| 17:36.56 | neybar_work | an AJAX heavy app over dialup would be painful. |
| 17:36.57 | \me | jsmith: AJAX combined with a proxy possibly |
| 17:37.01 | elg | or they might just get the $20 genealogy program that doesn't require the internet |
| 17:37.05 | redbeard1 | ah, $10/month. what was i thinking? oh, that's right. if they could afford $10/month, maybe they wouldn't be living in the projects. |
| 17:37.09 | tensai | ajax on an old computer over dialup. that sounds like fun. |
| 17:37.15 | jsmith | \me: Proxy doesn't help that much... |
| 17:37.49 | \me | jsmith: you don't understand - I'm talking about a client-side proxy. AJAX won't know if you're connected or not. The proxy decides on that and what to return. |
| 17:38.27 | Jayce^ | they'd still need all the data, large transfers... ugh |
| 17:38.32 | jsmith | Client-side proxy... in a browser... over dialup... Gee, that sounds more useful than a program I can download |
| 17:38.58 | findlay | vim-X11, I guess |
| 17:39.21 | \me | jsmith: hence the encouragement to move to broadband for greater functionality |
| 17:39.38 | harleypig | I want to move to SONET |
| 17:39.44 | \me | if they get a better product than anything else they'll switch |
| 17:40.00 | levi | \me is clearly delusional. |
| 17:40.03 | \me | I think you guys underestimate the little old genealogy ladies :-) |
| 17:40.24 | \me | all my grandparents would do it |
| 17:40.28 | macnewbold | It's not about underestimating at all |
| 17:40.43 | jsmith | \me: This is my last comment, and then I'm done with this conversation. PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE ENCOURAGED TO GET BROADBAND JUST SO THEY CAN DO SOMETHING THEY CAN ALREADY DO WITHOUT THE INTERNET. |
| 17:40.58 | macnewbold | it's about knowing enough of them to know that you'd be eliminating a significant portion of the userbase by requiring them to be online constantly to use it |
| 17:41.05 | macnewbold | not to mention the privacy concerns that some might have |
| 17:41.16 | macnewbold | especially non-LDS genealogists! |
| 17:41.19 | \me | jsmith: I'm not saying that - I'm proposing they get broadband so they can get something better than what they can already get with or without the internet |
| 17:41.20 | findlay | jsmith: why is the internet so bad? |
| 17:41.42 | \me | macnewbold: hence the local file store functionality |
| 17:41.46 | macnewbold | I agree with jsmith, and I don't think the internet is bad at all... |
| 17:41.52 | \me | I'm not saying it would store everything online |
| 17:41.55 | macnewbold | it's great to have an online-capable component |
| 17:42.07 | macnewbold | but it shouldn't be a requirement in order for the program to be useful |
| 17:42.17 | macnewbold | obviously there is some functionality that can't be done without internet, |
| 17:42.19 | \me | I'm just saying AJAX could handle anything the current PAF does and more |
| 17:42.29 | redbeard1 | findlay: i don't think he's saying the internet is bad. |
| 17:42.32 | macnewbold | but everything that _CAN_ be done without internet should be doable without internet in the new program |
| 17:42.34 | \me | macnewbold: we're in agreement |
| 17:42.43 | macnewbold | okay, then I don't think you were clear earlier |
| 17:42.52 | macnewbold | it sounded like internet would be required in your system |
| 17:43.02 | jsmith | findlay: It's not... but having been the local "computer guy" in my neighborhood, and having spent a good deal of my personal time for the past 5 years supporting these users (and having helped many of them get online), it's my personal opinion that the last thing they need is to feel like they *have* to get broadband, just to be able to do their family history. |
| 17:43.06 | \me | AJAX is required in my system, that's all |
| 17:43.12 | \me | AJAX doesn't necessarily need internet |
| 17:43.19 | macnewbold | well, what's it going to talk to then? |
| 17:43.20 | jsmith | \me: AJAX doesn't have anything to do with PAF |
| 17:43.26 | macnewbold | amen, jsmith |
| 17:43.29 | \me | macnewbold: a local proxy |
| 17:43.36 | \me | jsmith: not the current PAF |
| 17:43.43 | elg | ajax is a sucky toolkit compared to qt or even something like vb |
| 17:43.51 | macnewbold | with what purpose? just so you can have the browser be the interface? |
| 17:43.54 | elg | it happens to be really nice for web apps |
| 17:43.55 | \me | elg: not IMO |
| 17:44.04 | elg | well that's where you break fromr eality |
| 17:44.04 | findlay | oh sure. Bandy out all these ACRONYMNS and argue over them |
| 17:44.07 | nick125_lappy | \me: Well, if it doesn't need the internet, then, how would it be Ajax? |
| 17:44.11 | jsmith | \me: AJAX can't doing anything better than the current PAF -- maybe a new program that uses AJAX can, but AJAX is just client-server communications -- it's just a tool. It can't do anything by itself. |
| 17:44.11 | \me | macnewbold: correct - no need to install anything |
| 17:44.16 | macnewbold | the beast of cross-browser and cross-platform compatibility is a monster |
| 17:44.22 | macnewbold | well what's the local proxy then? |
| 17:44.28 | nick125_lappy | \me: Javascript, maybe, but, Ajax requires some kind of connection to a server |
| 17:44.28 | macnewbold | what's it talking to if you're offline? |
| 17:44.34 | \me | nick125_lappy: you currently need the internet to get PAF - hard to get it without these days |
| 17:44.56 | \me | jsmith: agreed - you know what I mean |
| 17:44.59 | jsmith | \me: Wrong... I can buy it on CD, or copy it on my USB key from someone else's CD |
| 17:45.01 | macnewbold | no, you need the internet _OR_ a disk with paf on it , which you could get from someone who has the internet |
| 17:45.11 | \me | jsmith: you ever tried to find it outside Utah |
| 17:45.13 | \me | ? |
| 17:45.14 | nick125_lappy | but that wouldn't exactly make it ajax... |
| 17:45.16 | redbeard1 | i remember when i was doing tech support, and people would call in all the time with problems playing solitaire. many of them never used the computer for anything else. what's the point in buying a deck of cards for $2,000 (average cost at the time) when you can go down to the store and buy a deck of cards for $2 |
| 17:45.18 | jsmith | \me: Yes. |
| 17:45.34 | \me | nick125_lappy: not if you trick it into thinking it's talking to a server |
| 17:45.35 | jsmith | \me: As a matter of fact, I have. |
| 17:45.40 | \me | jsmith: without the internet? |
| 17:45.44 | jsmith | \me: Yes |
| 17:45.44 | \me | and where did you get it from? |
| 17:46.00 | nick125_lappy | \me: wouldn't you be better off with just regular ol' javascript? |
| 17:46.18 | \me | nick125_lappy: AJAX allows it to be better when you're connected to the internet |
| 17:46.18 | jsmith | \me: Let's see... from the LDS Church distribution center, from the local library, from the local LDS meetinghouse... |
| 17:46.21 | macnewbold | \me: I still want to know what your AJAX is talking to... either you're online talking to a remote server, or you're talking to a local server, which on many platforms, you'd have to install locally with your program. |
| 17:46.40 | macnewbold | jsmith: or from a friend who has internet and a CD burner... :) |
| 17:46.43 | \me | jsmith: I'd like to see the CDs sold vs. number of downloads numbers |
| 17:46.54 | jsmith | \me: But it doesn't have to be AJAX -- it could be *ANY* client-server communication... I don't see why you're so hooked on AJAX. |
| 17:46.57 | macnewbold | that's not really relevant I don't think |
| 17:47.11 | macnewbold | jsmith is right... XMLRPC, SOAP, whatever |
| 17:47.13 | redbeard1 | jsmith: he's not actually addicted to ajax. just buzzwords. |
| 17:47.15 | levi | jsmith: AJAX is still cool and buzzwordy. |
| 17:47.39 | \me | macnewbold: no - when offline it would talk to a local proxy on the client machine. The proxy would return local data. When connected to the internet it would sync with servers remotely and work as a normal AJAX application |
| 17:47.43 | neybar_work | \me: what you really want is Web 2.0 Ajax is old news now. |
| 17:47.47 | nick125_lappy | but, XMLRPC/SOAP/whatever would still require a server somehow.. |
| 17:48.04 | \me | redbeard1: check out backcountry.com's shopping cart - I use AJAX frequently |
| 17:48.14 | macnewbold | \me: what is the local proxy proxying to? a local server? |
| 17:48.23 | jsmith | \me: Tell me when your spectacular AJAXified thing is written, and I promise I'll spend at least 10 minutes trying it out. Until then, I've got more important things to do besides argue about new mousetraps |
| 17:48.24 | \me | macnewbold: a filesystem |
| 17:48.29 | levi | nick125_lappy: You're missing his plan to put a proxy (a.k.a a local web server) on the client as well. |
| 17:48.29 | macnewbold | AJAX talks to an HTTPD server, not a filesystem |
| 17:48.36 | nick125_lappy | levi: aah |
| 17:48.39 | macnewbold | you'd have to install one on many OS's |
| 17:48.43 | levi | So, it's essentially a local program that syncs with a server, but with a crappy interface! |
| 17:48.45 | nick125_lappy | levi: well, that would be quite a pain imho |
| 17:48.53 | \me | macnewbold: not if it thinks it's talking to an httpd server |
| 17:49.02 | levi | And way more overhead than necessary. |
| 17:49.08 | macnewbold | so your proxy program impersonates an HTTPD server |
| 17:49.09 | \me | what I'm proposing has never been done before to my knowledge |
| 17:49.10 | macnewbold | same thing |
| 17:49.22 | levi | \me: Perhaps there's a reason for that. |
| 17:49.25 | macnewbold | \me: there might be a reason why it's never been done before.... ;) |
| 17:49.29 | jsmith | \me: It has... but they didn't call it AJAX |
| 17:49.29 | macnewbold | ~levi++ |
| 17:49.45 | \me | jsmith: it's just never been done with AJAX before |
| 17:49.47 | jsmith | \me: I've seen many a client-server model where the client has a proxy |
| 17:49.57 | \me | I can see the Google desktop working that way |
| 17:50.08 | macnewbold | basically your proxy would be capable of either _being_ an HTTP server or talking to one on the internet, correct? |
| 17:50.24 | \me | macnewbold: correct |
| 17:50.27 | nick125_lappy | levi: I was about to say that! :( |
| 17:50.30 | macnewbold | okay, then you're going to have to install something |
| 17:50.40 | macnewbold | and you're going to have to have a version suitable for every OS that you will support |
| 17:50.41 | \me | macnewbold: correct |
| 17:50.48 | \me | if you want offline access |
| 17:50.51 | nick125_lappy | if you have to install something, that slightly defeats the purpose of using a web application in the first place |
| 17:51.10 | macnewbold | I'd say that offline access would be the default mode, and the normal method of operation |
| 17:51.21 | findlay | did you know that only "hackers" install things on computers? |
| 17:51.23 | macnewbold | there's really not much you need to be _constantly_ doing online in a genealogy system |
| 17:51.23 | levi | I hope mheath is logging, so he sees that we don't only pick on /his/ stupid ideas. |
| 17:51.29 | nick125_lappy | lol |
| 17:51.33 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 17:51.46 | \me | macnewbold: hence the advantage to AJAX |
| 17:51.49 | macnewbold | this is what friends are for, no? to stop you before you waste a lot of time in a wrong direction? |
| 17:52.03 | macnewbold | how does ajax provide an advantage there? |
| 17:52.13 | redbeard1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:52.25 | \me | AJAX isn't about being connected "all the time". It's about small requests here and there only as needed |
| 17:52.30 | nick125_lappy | if you still have to install something, it entirely defeats the point of using a webapp in the first place |
| 17:52.33 | nick125_lappy | brb |
| 17:52.43 | \me | an ideal AJAX application downloads the entire application at first run and loads off the user's machine from then on |
| 17:52.50 | levi | \me: You have a pretty strange understanding of AJAX. |
| 17:53.01 | macnewbold | that's a pretty darn weird way of using AJAX |
| 17:53.06 | \me | \me: backcountry.com's not offline |
| 17:53.12 | macnewbold | it sounds like you'd be writing your app in javascript... |
| 17:53.15 | redbeard1 | can you get to http://www.jessestay.com/ ? |
| 17:53.15 | macnewbold | blech |
| 17:53.22 | \me | levi: read "AJAX in Action" by Manning |
| 17:53.32 | levi | No thanks. |
| 17:53.34 | \me | macnewbold: nope - AJAX |
| 17:53.34 | macnewbold | UPHPU has a library copy of that, if anyone wants |
| 17:53.39 | nick125_lappy | back |
| 17:53.52 | macnewbold | \me, I hate to break it to you, but the J in AJAX is javascript |
| 17:54.02 | \me | redbeard1: I never pay attention to that. It's hosted from a server in my basement. |
| 17:54.03 | neybar_work | <voice person="Inigo Montoya">I donna think AJAX means what you think it means</voice> |
| 17:54.17 | \me | macnewbold: correct, AJAX uses javascript, but it's still AJAX |
| 17:54.20 | macnewbold | AJAX is nothing more than combining HTTP, Javascript, and the XMLHTTPRequest functionality in modern browsers |
| 17:54.22 | nick125_lappy | Asynchronous JavaScript and XML.. |
| 17:54.24 | \me | it's more than just javascript |
| 17:54.32 | macnewbold | yes, but the core of it is javascrpit |
| 17:54.38 | \me | correct |
| 17:54.40 | macnewbold | AJAX doesn't modify your DOM, javascript does |
| 17:54.43 | levi | I don't know who this Manning guy is, but it sounds like he drank the same Kool-Aid as the guys who wanted to rewrite the world in Java applets. |
| 17:54.53 | \me | I misunderstood what you were getting at |
| 17:54.54 | macnewbold | manning is the publisher |
| 17:54.56 | redbeard1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:55.03 | \me | levi: I'm talking about the publisher |
| 17:55.11 | nick125_lappy | levi: java applets? ..woah |
| 17:55.15 | \me | it's one of the most popular AJAX books out there |
| 17:55.18 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 17:55.27 | levi | nick125: This was probably before you were able to form coherent thoughts. :P |
| 17:55.31 | \me | ~lart redbeard1 |
| 17:55.49 | nick125_lappy | levi: I guess it was before they were able to form coherent thoughts too... |
| 17:56.03 | \me | redbeard1: no, I'd check out backcountry.com and steepandcheap.com for that |
| 17:56.21 | macnewbold | \me: there are a ton of ways to do an online-capable offline program besides AJAX, and there are a lot of complications with choosing AJAX over those other options. Just don't get your heart set on the technology to solve your problem until you fully understand your problem and the different options available. AJAX might not be your best choice. |
| 17:56.21 | redbeard1 | steepandcheap, that's jesse. got it. |
| 17:56.26 | levi | nick125: No, really. It was the Next Big Thing. Everything would run in the web browser via Java applets. |
| 17:56.42 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:56.45 | macnewbold | I'm always an advocate of choosing the right technology to fit the problem, not just swinging an AJAX hammer all over trying to drive screws. |
| 17:57.00 | \me | macnewbold: it was just a thought. I'm mainly just proposing the online program be done in AJAX. The offline could be done whatever they want. |
| 17:57.13 | Jayce^ | ~lart fixed-width file formats |
| 17:57.13 | \me | I think it would be easier to support though just keeping the same code for both. |
| 17:57.13 | macnewbold | \me: you don't want to implement it twice |
| 17:57.17 | macnewbold | I guarantee it |
| 17:57.42 | macnewbold | you want to use the exact same interface and code to do everything possible, so that the online vs offline issue is as seamless as possible |
| 17:57.43 | levi | The only thing AJAX is good for is making web site interfaces suck a little less. |
| 17:57.50 | macnewbold | levi has a point... |
| 17:57.56 | Jayce^ | a very good one at that |
| 17:57.58 | levi | For that, it is wonderful! |
| 17:58.01 | \me | I think fewer and fewer will be offline, hence why I think the proxy solution may be a viable intermediate option |
| 17:58.06 | nick125_lappy | levi: just a little? |
| 17:58.12 | macnewbold | \me: that's an awfully big assumption! |
| 17:58.18 | neybar_work | I still fail to understand how AJAX "fixes" anything. All Ajax does is give you a method for breaking up server communications into smaller chunks. In stead of one big page load you now have the ability to talk to a server "just in time". It really doesn't fix how web apps in general work |
| 17:58.21 | levi | Anyway, I'm off for a bike ride. |
| 17:58.33 | levi | Have fun! I expect this argument to still be going strong when I return. :P |
| 17:58.40 | nick125_lappy | levi: probably |
| 17:58.48 | \me | macnewbold: statistics can prove that one |
| 17:58.53 | \me | internet use is going up, not down |
| 17:58.53 | findlay | levi: I'll do my best to keep things going for you |
| 17:59.17 | elg | oh, proving stuff with stats now, that's always fun |
| 17:59.30 | macnewbold | neybar_work: before XMLHTTP, you had to load everything when the page loads. Now you can load stuff later, as the user interacts. It adds a whole new class of possibilities. But you're right, it is still HTTP traffic in the end, and has limitations. |
| 17:59.43 | findlay | I don't see what the big deal is about \me's idea |
| 17:59.48 | macnewbold | \me: yes it is, but it doesn't mean that everyone will want to be always online to use a genealogy program |
| 18:00.30 | macnewbold | for speed if for nothing else, I'd want all my data stored locally. For backup I'd want it both places possibly, and for accessibility from other locations. |
| 18:00.43 | \me | macnewbold: that's the way things are going |
| 18:00.44 | macnewbold | but many of those issues and features are very small for family history apps |
| 18:01.01 | \me | I doubt much will be stored on your local computer in the future |
| 18:01.06 | \me | especially if Google has their way |
| 18:01.11 | macnewbold | \me: that's your opinion, and I agree with it to a point (internet is growing), |
| 18:01.26 | macnewbold | but I strongly disagree with "I doubt much will be stored on your local computer in the future" |
| 18:01.26 | *** join/#utah perry753-work (n=perry753@157.22.137.68) |
| 18:01.38 | \me | macnewbold: we'll just agree to disagree there |
| 18:01.50 | macnewbold | there will almost always be very good reasons to store things locally |
| 18:01.53 | elg | i think we all do |
| 18:02.23 | Jayce^ | heck, several presentations at oscon included topics about how to get more information back onto the users computer, instead of your own.. |
| 18:02.56 | macnewbold | I just hope you don't base your whole app around the assumption/opinion that people won't want stuff stored locally in the future, and that everyone will want to be always-connected in order to use your app |
| 18:03.12 | \me | Jayce^: that issue has obviously been seen then |
| 18:03.15 | macnewbold | otherwise, you might be sealing your app's destiny to fail |
| 18:04.06 | \me | macnewbold: so you're saying Google's apps are destined to fail? |
| 18:05.40 | elg | in internet-less cemeteries, they do fail |
| 18:06.17 | \me | elg: they are still successful, and very popular with those that use them |
| 18:06.19 | macnewbold | \me: no, they're not going to fail. But they're also not going to replace local apps with local storage that can operate offline. |
| 18:06.24 | \me | and their userbase is growing rapidly |
| 18:06.43 | \me | macnewbold: again, I'll just agree to disagree on that |
| 18:07.00 | \me | they may provide a local storage option, but it will mostly be online |
| 18:07.18 | macnewbold | there are things that local apps and local storage can do that online-only apps can't |
| 18:07.29 | macnewbold | first and foremost, operating when your internet isn't connected :) |
| 18:07.35 | \me | macnewbold: at the moment, yes |
| 18:07.41 | \me | doesn't mean that won't change |
| 18:07.48 | macnewbold | secondly, offering you as much disk space as you have available, at no extra cost |
| 18:07.51 | \me | especially if Google gets into the Desktop OS scene |
| 18:08.23 | macnewbold | \me: um, yeah. There's no way that's going to change. If an app cannot operate without being online, then it can't operate when you're offline. By definition. No changing possible. |
| 18:08.32 | \me | macnewbold: disk space is cheap, especially for advertising revenue |
| 18:08.58 | \me | agreed, hence why I think more and more people will be online |
| 18:09.04 | \me | and it won't stay stagnant |
| 18:09.11 | macnewbold | there's another one: I don't want to use a genealogy app that advertises at me constantly |
| 18:09.23 | macnewbold | and they won't like me, cause I don't click on the ads |
| 18:09.36 | \me | macnewbold: hence why the church is hosting it - they don't have to advertise |
| 18:09.45 | \me | other companies to compete can provide advertising |
| 18:09.49 | macnewbold | \me: operating offline is a big advantage to many apps |
| 18:09.58 | \me | or a subscription (which many companies already do) |
| 18:10.06 | macnewbold | no matter how many people get internet access, there are still going to be failures and downtimes |
| 18:10.17 | macnewbold | not to mention censoring, when you get into China and stuff |
| 18:10.39 | \me | macnewbold: I'm sure those issues can be approached when they come |
| 18:10.43 | macnewbold | anyway, I've got to get back to my real tasks today, so I'm going to pull a jsmith and sign off... |
| 18:10.48 | macnewbold | I wish you luck with your app, |
| 18:11.00 | macnewbold | but please listen to reason, or you'll regret it later |
| 18:11.11 | \me | well, it's not my app - just an idea for how the church should do it |
| 18:11.12 | macnewbold | it's a big gamble to depend on what the future will bring |
| 18:11.23 | macnewbold | ah, okay, so you're not building this thing you're talking about? |
| 18:12.11 | \me | I was just talking about writing an OSS AJAX client. Mine was just going to communicate with Paul Johnson's GEDCOM.pm API |
| 18:12.29 | \me | it would be more of a replacement for Gramps than PAF |
| 18:12.46 | macnewbold | well, good luck I guess |
| 18:12.59 | \me | macnewbold: don't be surprised if the church moves in that direction though - they've been talking about it |
| 18:13.57 | Jayce^ | yeah, why store it in gedcom though... wouldn't the most important point be to get away from the hell that is gedcom? |
| 18:14.43 | findlay | yeah |
| 18:14.53 | findlay | down with gedcom@! |
| 18:15.22 | harleypig | gedcom 2.0 |
| 18:15.24 | \me | Jayce^: I think he's written a database-driven API that utilizes some of the functions of Gedcom.pm |
| 18:15.30 | findlay | noooo!! |
| 18:15.30 | elg | -lart harleypig |
| 18:15.31 | \me | haven't looked at it yet though |
| 18:15.40 | harleypig | :D |
| 18:15.41 | elg | well, I think I've officially panicked my students |
| 18:15.48 | nick125_lappy | elg: how did you do that/ |
| 18:15.56 | elg | my test was too long I think |
| 18:15.59 | harleypig | If I can't poke someone's brain wrap at least once a day then I haven't accomplished anything. |
| 18:16.30 | findlay | harleypig: consider my meninges poked |
| 18:16.56 | harleypig | But I'm not limiting myself to once a day ... |
| 18:17.06 | elg | as in, way too long. and I should have given them more gimmes |
| 18:17.21 | elg | but I think after the adjustment they'll be happy |
| 18:17.47 | nick125_lappy | anyone here know of a OSS collaboration suite like zimbra that works on a gentoo-based system? |
| 18:18.06 | emcnabb | elg: how does it feel to be on the other side of the student/professor relationship? |
| 18:18.29 | \me | nick125_lappy: does zimbra not work on gentoo? |
| 18:18.31 | elg | well, about like I thought it would. I was under no delusions that writing exams would be easy |
| 18:18.52 | nick125_lappy | \me: from looking around the gentoo forums, they were talking about creating a ubuntu chroot to use it o.0 |
| 18:19.33 | nick125_lappy | and they don't have a thing to download the source (their CVS is down as well) |
| 18:19.35 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 18:19.35 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 18:19.52 | findlay | my first physics professor could write tests that were based on the material taught in class and seem so easy yet be so hard that the class average was usually between 0.5-0.6 |
| 18:20.09 | findlay | and he used LaTeX (: |
| 18:20.56 | \me | nick125_lappy: that sucks - zimbra is way cool |
| 18:21.43 | nick125_lappy | \me: yeah..I don't want to have to setup a debian VM just to try it out either :/ |
| 18:22.51 | findlay | what's the best way to emit XML in perl? |
| 18:23.52 | neybar_work | try XML::Simple |
| 18:26.06 | nick125_lappy | anyone here try out hula? |
| 18:27.43 | \me | nick125_lappy: I did awhile back - a bit tough to get working though |
| 18:28.04 | \me | not sure how much it has improved since |
| 18:33.03 | tensai | findlay: print "<xml/>\n"; |
| 18:33.32 | findlay | ~lart html |
| 18:34.00 | findlay | tensai: so print means print the string in quotes? |
| 18:34.01 | tensai | elg: are you still trolling for exam proof readers? |
| 18:34.32 | tensai | findlay: hang on, lemme double check the man page... |
| 18:34.48 | tensai | findlay: yes, that's correct |
| 18:36.59 | tensai | dig nc.rr.com mx |
| 18:37.05 | tensai | ~lart road runner |
| 18:37.44 | tensai | dig doesn't even show the half of it. they've got like 40 mx ip addresses |
| 18:38.32 | tensai | 42 to be exact |
| 18:38.35 | tensai | dig nc.rr.com mx +tcp |
| 18:38.42 | tensai | morons |
| 18:38.54 | \me | anyone have a google writely account? |
| 18:42.56 | maquis | "you have 2 programs running. running too many programs can cause your computer to run slowly. if your computer is running slowly, try shutting down some programs" |
| 18:43.10 | sjansen | Thump vessel chisel. Hemi energy. |
| 18:43.53 | sjansen | Buy my v14gr! You want v15gr, plenty good, men love v14gr. Cheap v14gr. |
| 18:44.21 | sjansen | (Original message editted to increase readability.) |
| 18:45.44 | nick125_lappy | lol |
| 18:52.13 | sjansen | http://adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.11.26.101258.24.html <-- The problem with sarcasm is that you don't know where sarcasm ends and stupidity begins. |
| 18:52.19 | brac | [Linux Zealot - The Internet's most controversial cartoon superhero] |
| 18:58.57 | *** join/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13) |
| 19:05.20 | *** join/#utah synic (n=squish@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 19:12.08 | *** join/#utah RyanE (i=Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 19:21.12 | maquis | AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 |
| 19:21.24 | maquis | ~curse visual studio |
| 19:21.27 | ibot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, visual studio ! |
| 19:21.38 | findlay | ha |
| 19:22.39 | maquis | ~nuke visual studio |
| 19:22.40 | ibot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at visual studio ... B☢☢M! |
| 19:23.17 | nick125_lappy | lol |
| 19:23.34 | nick125_lappy | this is taking forever... |
| 19:23.40 | nick125_lappy | go faster!! faster! |
| 19:23.56 | sjansen | Poor Visual Studio, it must be hard working with maquis. |
| 19:24.59 | maquis | -lart sjansen |
| 19:25.34 | maquis | does anybody here actually understand how to work with windows forms in c#.net |
| 19:25.35 | maquis | ? |
| 19:25.53 | maquis | ~lart sjansen |
| 19:26.00 | maquis | that's a little better |
| 19:26.29 | sjansen | Oo! I'm getting a pet? |
| 19:26.55 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 19:26.56 | maquis | sjansen: you get to go get "tutored" |
| 19:27.57 | maquis | me? in a bad mood? never |
| 19:29.24 | elg | -art maquis |
| 19:29.28 | elg | -lart maquis |
| 19:30.43 | *** join/#utah mheath (i=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:32.20 | sjansen | ~mock maquis |
| 19:32.22 | ibot | ACTION pulls maquis's pants down and shows the world maquis's pink spotted underwear |
| 19:33.09 | sjansen | http://technocrat.net/d/2006/7/31/6215 |
| 19:36.58 | *** join/#utah nick125_lappy (n=nick@c-68-35-117-92.hsd1.nm.comcast.net) |
| 19:38.55 | elg | -lart sjansen |
| 19:39.54 | \me | maquis: he - you're comment was highlighted in irssi - it thought you were talking to me |
| 19:42.52 | levi | sjansen: Clearly Chavez is part of the cabal. |
| 19:44.25 | levi | sjansen: He's in cahoots with Bush and the other world leaders, and they're planning on getting WWIII started to usher in the End Times. |
| 19:46.30 | elg | "I'm sick and tired of waiting for the End. Let's move things along, chaps." |
| 19:50.17 | harleypig | boo |
| 19:50.37 | harleypig | Hey! I scared of mheath! |
| 19:50.43 | harleypig | s/of/off/ |
| 19:50.51 | \me | he just legally can't talk about it ;-) |
| 19:52.45 | redbeard1 | that's tragic |
| 19:54.34 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=mkling@12.174.37.165) |
| 19:56.38 | redbeard1 | hey, any anime freaks^Wfans in here interested in some old anime magazine imports? |
| 20:00.14 | *** join/#utah Robdor_ (n=rob@208.187.198.179) |
| 20:01.46 | *** join/#utah jlp_work (n=jlp@67.106.37.5) |
| 20:21.02 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@208.187.198.66) |
| 20:21.34 | redbeard1 | ~lart vontrapp |
| 20:26.42 | *** join/#utah mheath (i=Mike@c-67-182-231-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:35.56 | mheath | Hmm. Is there a way to make AP-sepcific configuration settings to wireless in Windows? |
| 20:36.09 | mheath | So, for example, I can set a static IP for my home network.... |
| 20:36.14 | mheath | but have it auto DHCP for everywhere esle |
| 20:42.47 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@65.214.148.70) |
| 20:43.21 | mrpull_ | mheath: are you using the default windows control panel for wifi? |
| 20:43.29 | mrpull_ | if so, probably not... |
| 20:43.51 | mrpull_ | but you can set up a fail back static IP if you don't get a DHCP config |
| 20:44.16 | mheath | mrpull_, well, that wouldn't work, because my home network has both |
| 20:45.09 | mheath | I just prefer static IPs when a computer is static to a network. |
| 21:00.24 | mheath | ~lart worthless status bars |
| 21:00.43 | mheath | status bars that jump randomly, ones that repeat... |
| 21:23.10 | *** join/#utah pacifico (i=pacifico@cpe-066-057-045-150.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 21:23.12 | pacifico | mheath, |
| 21:23.15 | pacifico | i need to talk to you |
| 21:23.58 | pacifico | ASAP |
| 21:23.58 | pacifico | you stupid cunt face rat head asshole |
| 21:23.59 | mheath | O.o |
| 21:23.59 | pacifico | mheath, http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/20051031.html.gz |
| 21:24.01 | pacifico | why the FUCK would you do that |
| 21:25.07 | mheath | pacifico, please don't use language like that in this room. |
| 21:25.27 | pacifico | then tell me why you did that |
| 21:25.29 | *** join/#utah Johnny` (i=Johnny@80-42-6-12.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 21:25.32 | pacifico | why would you ever do that |
| 21:25.39 | pacifico | how _could_ you do that |
| 21:25.40 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (i=Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:25.45 | pacifico | mess up my life, why don't you |
| 21:26.35 | mheath | pacifico, because I care about national security and don't think that people who abuse the government are good people. |
| 21:27.05 | pacifico | so, you choose to get a 14 year old kid busted |
| 21:27.15 | pacifico | i understand totally, how your fascist mind works |
| 21:27.16 | meh | mheath, the government are good people, wouldn't you say? >_> |
| 21:27.39 | mheath | meh, the Library of Congress is good. |
| 21:27.40 | pacifico | narcing on a fighter for complete freedom, that works mheath |
| 21:27.47 | pacifico | mheath, bullocks |
| 21:28.01 | mheath | pacifico, 'fighter for complete freedom'? LMAO. |
| 21:28.12 | levi | Heh, http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/dec/essay.criticize.html |
| 21:28.13 | brac | [How To Criticizing Computer Scientists] |
| 21:28.41 | pacifico | well, so what did you actually do, mheath |
| 21:28.47 | pacifico | fill out some fbi report? |
| 21:29.06 | levi | Geez, where are the ops when you need them? |
| 21:29.08 | mheath | I really don't see why I should bother to tell you. |
| 21:29.16 | meh | levi, what you need one for? |
| 21:29.22 | pacifico | because its my life, mheath? |
| 21:29.25 | meh | I may be an op in disguise ;) |
| 21:29.36 | meh | Maybe not though :P |
| 21:29.46 | levi | pacifico has certainly violated the acceptable language policy of the channel. |
| 21:29.51 | meh | wtf man |
| 21:30.01 | meh | Mad. |
| 21:30.14 | meh | Where please |
| 21:30.21 | pacifico | i appologize |
| 21:30.28 | pacifico | i didnt know, levi |
| 21:30.39 | mheath | 15:23 according to my timestamp, meh |
| 21:30.41 | pacifico | hold on, mheath ratboy is comeing |
| 21:31.00 | mheath | Sigh. |
| 21:31.40 | *** join/#utah ratboy (n=ratboy@c-24-20-152-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 21:31.41 | *** part/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@smithfam.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:31.52 | pacifico | mheath, why would you do such a thing though? |
| 21:32.00 | meh | At least you know you've done your bitch for the country, I mean Government, because, well, how it would help the country, I don't know |
| 21:32.03 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 21:32.03 | meh | bit* |
| 21:32.06 | meh | not bitch* |
| 21:32.11 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 21:32.17 | meh | It seems pointless. |
| 21:32.43 | ratboy | mhealth why would you report shit like that to the fbi? |
| 21:32.52 | ratboy | just so you can get in goodie goodie with them? |
| 21:33.00 | pacifico | ratboy, don't cuss, they'll kick you |
| 21:33.01 | ratboy | ok |
| 21:33.15 | pacifico | ratboy, he says becaus ehe dont like people who dont like this country |
| 21:33.16 | pacifico | >.> |
| 21:33.30 | ratboy | thats not the point of hacking loc.gov |
| 21:33.33 | ratboy | .. |
| 21:33.34 | macnewbold | ~kick ratboy |
| 21:33.35 | ibot | bugger off, macnewbold! |
| 21:33.38 | mheath | No, I don't like people who break our countries laws. |
| 21:33.40 | pacifico | it was my point, ratboy |
| 21:33.45 | ratboy | it wasnt hacked because we dont like this country |
| 21:33.57 | pacifico | it was hacked because I dont like the government |
| 21:34.17 | levi | Silly kids. |
| 21:34.36 | pacifico | well, fuck you mheath |
| 21:34.39 | mheath | just goes to show you: year old logs can come back to bite you. |
| 21:34.41 | ratboy | fuck it this is stupid just like mhealth |
| 21:34.51 | ratboy | yes they can |
| 21:34.51 | meh | levi, I hardly think people who are intelligent enough to exploit a government site are silly kids |
| 21:34.52 | mheath | pacifico, duefully noted. Have a nice day |
| 21:35.04 | ratboy | narc! |
| 21:35.07 | *** part/#utah ratboy (n=ratboy@c-24-20-152-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 21:35.18 | pacifico | narc! |
| 21:35.18 | levi | meh: What's special about a government site, except that it's run by government employees? |
| 21:35.18 | *** part/#utah pacifico (i=pacifico@cpe-066-057-045-150.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 21:35.29 | meh | levi, I wasnt involved at the time, so I dont know why |
| 21:35.37 | meh | However, he is an anarchist/activist |
| 21:35.43 | meh | He wants to reform the government |
| 21:35.47 | mheath | The funny thing is, the sites that are defaced are never the main government sites. |
| 21:35.48 | meh | hes doing it for good reasons, he believes |
| 21:36.02 | mheath | There always the ww2's, the second servers, etc. |
| 21:36.11 | meh | mheath, I'm not going to call myself on anyones side, but I don't believe you did the right thing |
| 21:36.13 | levi | People who hack government websites for a cause are essentially silly kids, regardless of age or 'hacking' experience. |
| 21:36.24 | meh | levi, maybe |
| 21:36.37 | *** mode/#utah [+o goozbach] by ChanServ |
| 21:36.40 | meh | Do you have any security experience? Just want a bit of context |
| 21:36.47 | levi | meh: What's that got to do with anything? |
| 21:36.50 | mheath | meh, someone brags over and over again about their stupid defacement of a government website. I just let the FBI know about their hostmask. I didn't know it was a kid. |
| 21:36.56 | mheath | I'd do the same thing if it happened today. |
| 21:36.59 | goozbach | watch the language folks |
| 21:37.10 | meh | mheath, I totally agree he was stupid for boasting |
| 21:37.12 | mheath | goozbach, the violaters left already. |
| 21:37.18 | meh | That was totally foolish |
| 21:37.23 | *** mode/#utah [+o elg] by ChanServ |
| 21:37.35 | mheath | meh, I'd do so with more volition today, considering my oath to protect and serve the government of the United States. |
| 21:37.54 | meh | You are employed by Government then? |
| 21:37.59 | mheath | Yes. |
| 21:38.04 | meh | Ah, I see |
| 21:38.29 | meh | Well, I guess thats better than a random person snitching |
| 21:38.56 | meh | levi, I was just wondering, as it seemed to be an opinion coming from a "whitehat" view |
| 21:39.03 | levi | Defacing government websites is stupid and pointless, and people who do it /ought/ to be reported. |
| 21:39.06 | meh | Many "whitehats" adopt that very same view |
| 21:39.54 | *** join/#utah pacifico (i=pacifico@cpe-066-057-045-150.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 21:39.56 | pacifico | http://hackbloc.org/snitchesgetstitches.txt |
| 21:39.59 | *** part/#utah pacifico (i=pacifico@cpe-066-057-045-150.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 21:40.03 | mheath | Sigh. |
| 21:40.14 | mheath | He pasted something, didn't he? |
| 21:40.17 | levi | I wear a white baseball cap on occasion, but I don't do any security work. |
| 21:40.55 | meh | mheath, yeah. |
| 21:40.58 | levi | mheath: He posted a link to some IRC logs. |
| 21:40.59 | redbeard1 | mheath: yeah, a chat transcript |
| 21:41.09 | redbeard1 | levi: jinx |
| 21:41.13 | *** mode/#utah [+b *!*@cpe-066-057-045-150.nc.res.rr.com] by elg |
| 21:41.14 | levi | The filename is a vague threat. |
| 21:41.28 | meh | mheath, may I ask what you do for Gov anyway? |
| 21:41.34 | *** mode/#utah [+b *!*@c-24-20-152-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] by elg |
| 21:41.42 | mheath | meh, I'm now enlisted United States Marine Corps. |
| 21:41.51 | levi | Clearly, pacifico has issues dealing with things in a mature fashion. |
| 21:41.53 | meh | Right. |
| 21:41.56 | *** join/#utah EvilHerbivore (n=dave@71-35-216-249.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 21:42.26 | meh | Been to Iraq yet, out of interest? |
| 21:42.42 | mheath | heh, not yet. |
| 21:42.55 | meh | I see. |
| 21:43.49 | meh | Don't you think that's a strange oath though? |
| 21:43.56 | *** join/#utah b-owl (n=phracker@67.71.0.49) |
| 21:43.57 | meh | I just scrolled up by accident and saw it again |
| 21:44.01 | meh | Hiya ;) |
| 21:44.08 | meh | <mheath> meh, I'd do so with more volition today, considering my oath to protect and serve the government of the United States. |
| 21:44.17 | meh | Shouldn't it be protect your country instead? |
| 21:44.34 | meh | It just seems a little absurd that your priority is to protect "your" Government |
| 21:45.08 | goozbach | holy wow I gots me lots of lag here |
| 21:45.16 | meh | 0.2 for me |
| 21:45.34 | mheath | meh, "I, Michael Thomas Heath, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." |
| 21:46.41 | meh | Hmm. |
| 21:46.56 | meh | It doesn't mention about stealing oil in Iraq |
| 21:47.00 | meh | Is that the next paragraph? |
| 21:47.15 | meh | xD |
| 21:47.30 | elg | meh: isn't there a nice political channel you can rant in? |
| 21:47.34 | goozbach | stupid lag |
| 21:47.36 | b-owl | pacifico wants to know if you guys will unban him |
| 21:47.46 | goozbach | nope |
| 21:47.46 | elg | I think the answer iw no |
| 21:47.47 | b-owl | and that he is sorry for swearing |
| 21:47.49 | b-owl | ok |
| 21:47.52 | meh | elg, I'm not that political to be honest |
| 21:47.52 | b-owl | ill tell him :P |
| 21:47.58 | meh | But I just find this oath stuff shocking |
| 21:48.14 | macnewbold | what do you expect from an oath for military servicemen? |
| 21:48.17 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog@208.177.146.102.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:48.29 | *** join/#utah RyanE (i=Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:48.41 | *** join/#utah Robdor (n=rob@208.187.198.179) |
| 21:48.51 | meh | macnewbold, to swear to do good things, protecting civilians of their own country, not blindly follow George Bush, which it says |
| 21:49.26 | meh | Oh well. |
| 21:49.27 | levi | meh: If you were actually familiar with the regulations and Uniform Code of Military Justice, you might have a more informed opinion. |
| 21:49.32 | mheath | b-owl, Tell him that if he wants to find me, he can find Private First Class Heath, United States Marine Corps, at MCRD San Diego in Alpha Company of the 3rd Battalion, Marine Corps Recruit Training Regiment. |
| 21:49.33 | *** join/#utah ick_ (n=cooperq@darkside.dod.net) |
| 21:49.34 | macnewbold | that would never do for a military oath, meh |
| 21:49.36 | vontrapp | well you can't very well have a bunch of soldiers running around doing whatever each thinks is protecting civilians |
| 21:49.41 | vontrapp | there _has_ to be order |
| 21:49.44 | macnewbold | you've got to have order |
| 21:49.49 | ick_ | mheath: fuck you |
| 21:49.51 | macnewbold | ~vontrapp++ |
| 21:49.53 | meh | levi, maybe, but as I say, I'm not too mad on politics. |
| 21:49.53 | b-owl | mheath, who wants to find you? |
| 21:49.55 | *** mode/#utah [+b *!*n=cooperq@*.dod.net] by elg |
| 21:49.55 | *** kick/#utah [ick_!n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net] by elg (elg) |
| 21:49.57 | macnewbold | ~language ick_ |
| 21:49.58 | ibot | ACTION grabs ick_ by the ear and washes ick_'s mouth out with soap |
| 21:49.59 | b-owl | tx for the info btw |
| 21:50.17 | levi | meh: It has nothing to do with politics. |
| 21:50.26 | meh | Okay. |
| 21:50.52 | meh | levi,do you work for Gov too? |
| 21:50.57 | levi | meh: No. |
| 21:51.04 | mheath | meh prefers to "Support and Defend what any given person on the street wants me to do, and spontaneously start revolutions" version of the oath |
| 21:51.18 | meh | mheath, don't tell me what I do or do not support, kthx. |
| 21:51.19 | mheath | s/prefers to/prefers the/ |
| 21:51.46 | mheath | it does not say that I blindly follow Mr. Bush |
| 21:51.48 | Robdor | Sounds like a bad rap song... |
| 21:51.58 | levi | meh: I simply prefer to educate myself about things I want to criticize. You might try it. |
| 21:52.13 | mheath | If you notice, it talks about the _constitution_ |
| 21:52.19 | goozbach | and I like to criticize ideas not people |
| 21:52.25 | meh | Alright, I'm not that interested |
| 21:52.32 | meh | goozbach, I criticised no person |
| 21:52.33 | mheath | I don't know if you're aware, but the constitution makes the current president the commander and chief of the armed forces |
| 21:52.35 | meh | Just the idea |
| 21:52.40 | mheath | making me constitutionally bound to obey his orders |
| 21:52.47 | goozbach | meh: I'm refering to mh's comment |
| 21:52.56 | b-owl | what is your point? laws dont define ethics |
| 21:53.00 | mheath | It is the constitution I follow, not Mr. Bush. |
| 21:53.37 | b-owl | brb |
| 21:54.11 | *** mode/#utah [-i] by elg |
| 21:54.19 | mheath | -i? |
| 21:54.19 | brac | who knows? |
| 21:54.20 | b-owl | <mheath> No, I don't like people who break our countries laws. |
| 21:54.27 | b-owl | could i debate you on that or is this not the place? |
| 21:54.48 | elg | hmm |
| 21:54.52 | elg | not sure what -i means |
| 21:55.01 | b-owl | i sets the channel to invite only |
| 21:55.02 | *** mode/#utah [-i] by elg |
| 21:55.11 | b-owl | probably not something you want on |
| 21:55.14 | elg | wierd. it's definitely not doing what I told it to |
| 21:56.06 | elg | -lart macirssi |
| 21:56.15 | mheath | b-owl, you wouldn't change my mind. I have a fundamental oath to support said laws, punishable by up to death during a time of war for failure to comply. I consider people who deface government property to be domestic enemies of the United States, and take appropriate action against them. |
| 21:56.17 | mheath | Enough said. |
| 21:56.44 | neybar_work | sounds like you are a good marine then |
| 21:56.48 | b-owl | right, understood you took an oath |
| 21:56.50 | meh | according to bush |
| 21:57.08 | goozbach | elg you try to do this:? |
| 21:57.18 | *** mode/#utah [+m] by goozbach |
| 21:57.40 | elg | yup but was trying to do it through macirssi's apparently broken UI :) |
| 21:58.06 | goozbach | TIMEOUT!!!!! |
| 21:58.17 | *** mode/#utah [+vmcne vontrapp bonez41!*@*] by elg |
| 21:58.41 | *** part/#utah b-owl (n=phracker@67.71.0.49) |
| 21:58.48 | elg | hhehe. |
| 21:58.52 | elg | man I really need to practice |
| 21:59.09 | goozbach | practice? |
| 21:59.15 | vontrapp | no bake cookies |
| 21:59.18 | vontrapp | they can be tricky |
| 21:59.25 | elg | my irc command fu |
| 21:59.25 | goozbach | very |
| 21:59.30 | goozbach | ahh |
| 21:59.41 | *** mode/#utah [+v brac] by elg |
| 21:59.49 | *** mode/#utah [+vv levi findlay] by elg |
| 22:00.27 | *** mode/#utah [+vvv bonez41 emcnabb macnewbold] by elg |
| 22:00.27 | *** mode/#utah [+vvv harleypig Newsome maquis] by elg |
| 22:00.27 | *** mode/#utah [+vvv sjansen tensai Tene] by elg |
| 22:00.45 | elg | looks like I got the hang of it |
| 22:00.47 | levi | I wish I had a no-bake cookie. |
| 22:00.48 | *** mode/#utah [+z] by elg |
| 22:00.58 | *** mode/#utah [+v nick125_lappy] by elg |
| 22:01.06 | *** part/#utah meh (i=Johnny@80-42-6-12.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 22:01.26 | goozbach | I'm making ice cream |
| 22:01.33 | elg | lavendar? |
| 22:01.39 | goozbach | peach |
| 22:01.42 | nick125_lappy | goozbach: and how much are you bringing us? :) |
| 22:01.59 | levi | ~urls |
| 22:02.04 | goozbach | nick125_lappy: come to my BBQ tomorrow and you can have some |
| 22:02.14 | levi | elg: Did you voice ibot? |
| 22:02.30 | *** mode/#utah [+v ibot] by goozbach |
| 22:02.45 | elg | ibot is op he has voice |
| 22:02.47 | goozbach | ha ha |
| 22:02.52 | elg | ibot doesn't do urls |
| 22:02.53 | elg | -urls |
| 22:02.54 | brac | [2006/07/31 15:39:57] <pacifico> http://hackbloc.org/snitchesgetstitches.txt |
| 22:02.54 | brac | [2006/07/31 15:28:13] <levi> http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/dec/essay.criticize.html |
| 22:02.54 | brac | [2006/07/31 15:23:54] <pacifico> http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/20051031.html.gz |
| 22:02.54 | brac | [2006/07/31 13:33:10] <sjansen> http://technocrat.net/d/2006/7/31/6215 |
| 22:03.13 | goozbach | sometimes you wear streachy pants just for fun |
| 22:03.26 | elg | or jam pants |
| 22:03.43 | levi | elg: You should read the essay on criticizing CS academics. :) |
| 22:03.56 | levi | Sometimes I wear lycra pants. |
| 22:04.02 | elg | did you hear how I tortured my students today |
| 22:04.04 | elg | ? |
| 22:04.08 | levi | But only when it's cold outside and I'm going on a bike ride. |
| 22:04.27 | levi | Yeah, I heard you made a killer test. |
| 22:04.35 | vontrapp | elg: listening |
| 22:04.48 | elg | my test was too long and arduous. poor students |
| 22:05.12 | elg | no class meets after and technically it's a lab section after so I let them keep going |
| 22:05.21 | elg | half (4 of them) took 2 hours |
| 22:05.32 | levi | Yow. |
| 22:05.43 | levi | How soon was the fastest one finished? What format was the test? |
| 22:06.14 | vontrapp | i've had tests longer than 2 hours |
| 22:06.23 | elg | http://hans.fugal.net/tmp/exam1.pdf |
| 22:06.31 | elg | this one was intended to take 75 minutes |
| 22:06.42 | elg | i have learned a lesson on estimating test time. :) |
| 22:06.55 | elg | the fastest finished in about 50 minutes, but left a lot blank |
| 22:06.56 | vontrapp | woo! make cheatsheets! |
| 22:07.00 | elg | well, with ?? |
| 22:07.04 | elg | meaning he gave up |
| 22:07.56 | elg | the fastest to actually finish it was about an hour |
| 22:08.19 | elg | oh well. I think in other respects (apart from being too long) it was a good test |
| 22:08.44 | elg | some gimmes, only a couple bad questions |
| 22:08.54 | elg | and lots of differentiation and helping me see what they don't get |
| 22:08.58 | elg | just too darn long |
| 22:09.07 | emcnabb | ~lart elg |
| 22:10.11 | goozbach | ~say invoke ops this guy is being a bad person |
| 22:10.13 | ibot | invoke ops this guy is being a bad person |
| 22:10.18 | *** mode/#utah [-m] by elg |
| 22:11.23 | levi | elg: They may be watching the logs, waiting to descend again upon #utah with their finger-pointing and name-calling. |
| 22:11.38 | elg | who my students? |
| 22:12.05 | elg | if my students figure out how to find me on irc (on their own) I'll give them an A |
| 22:12.06 | levi | No, the 'hackers' who mheath ticked off by reporting a website defacement. |
| 22:12.13 | elg | oh, it's just a +m away |
| 22:12.27 | elg | ~flunk hans_student |
| 22:12.29 | ibot | ACTION shoves a dunce cap on hans_student then encourages everyone to point and laugh |
| 22:12.38 | hans_student | Prof. Fugal sucks! |
| 22:12.39 | vontrapp | that's not what you said you'ld do |
| 22:12.50 | hans_student | down with Prof. Fugal |
| 22:12.50 | elg | I meant my _other_ students. :) |
| 22:12.54 | nick125_lappy | lol |
| 22:13.06 | hans_student | his tests are long and difficult |
| 22:13.16 | hans_student | and he doesn't bathe |
| 22:15.27 | *** join/#utah Robdor_ (n=rob@208.187.198.179) |
| 22:18.14 | vontrapp | emcnabb: there you have it, he _does_ bathe, but with paperclips |
| 22:18.30 | elg | emcnabb: technically I'm not a prof |
| 22:18.48 | emcnabb | elg: I know |
| 22:19.01 | elg | in fact i could be dr fugal teaching the class and perhaps still not be prof. fugal |
| 22:20.20 | emcnabb | elg: are you going to end up getting a PHD? |
| 22:20.41 | emcnabb | Ph.D. |
| 22:20.49 | elg | yup, that's what I'm working on |
| 22:21.02 | emcnabb | oh, I thought you were working on your masters |
| 22:21.10 | elg | skipping that |
| 22:21.14 | elg | or might get it along the way |
| 22:21.28 | elg | but you can still call me master elg if you like |
| 22:21.31 | emcnabb | how much school do you have left? |
| 22:21.35 | emcnabb | never! |
| 22:21.39 | vontrapp | elg: how do you like the teaching so far? |
| 22:21.48 | elg | it's fun |
| 22:22.07 | elg | about 3 years probably |
| 22:22.39 | emcnabb | they'll give a degree to anyone these days... ;-) |
| 22:22.53 | vontrapp | ooh? where's mine? |
| 22:23.01 | goozbach | ohh that's nice |
| 22:23.14 | emcnabb | ask elg, he'll tell you |
| 22:23.19 | goozbach | I disconnected my roommate's computer and things sped up a lot |
| 22:23.33 | emcnabb | goozbach: what's her name? |
| 22:23.34 | vontrapp | -lart those virus laden computer zombies |
| 22:23.58 | vontrapp | brac, the opposite would be more appropriate |
| 22:24.06 | emcnabb | brac is wise |
| 22:25.16 | goozbach | emcnabb: who's name? |
| 22:25.36 | vontrapp | elg: "represented with the char integer datatype..."? |
| 22:25.42 | emcnabb | your roommate |
| 22:26.18 | elg | char is an integer datatype |
| 22:26.33 | elg | if I just said char they might get confused with strings |
| 22:26.36 | vontrapp | oh, i was parsing it wrong |
| 22:26.53 | goozbach | if only I was living with some hot european forigen exchange student |
| 22:26.55 | goozbach | ... |
| 22:27.19 | emcnabb | I thought you went to Florida for the babes? |
| 22:31.23 | levi | It's kind of annoying that char is named as it is. |
| 22:31.58 | Tene | howso? |
| 22:32.20 | levi | It lures the unsuspecting into believing that char variables store characters. |
| 22:33.00 | vontrapp | which isn't so bad if you understand that a char is just a number |
| 22:33.00 | vontrapp | _if_ |
| 22:33.25 | vontrapp | s/char/character |
| 22:33.33 | Tene | Why are you programming in C if you don't understand that? |
| 22:33.55 | levi | Tene: Ask the people taking hans's class. |
| 22:34.15 | Tene | Why are you taking a class from someone who won't teach that? |
| 22:34.23 | levi | He probably does. |
| 22:34.30 | vontrapp | ``foo'' argh, i hate those quotes |
| 22:34.38 | levi | Not everything a teacher teaches sinks in. |
| 22:35.07 | levi | I hate those quotes, too. |
| 22:35.54 | levi | At least if you mean the literal pair of backticks and pair of apostrophes, and not the real curly quotes. |
| 22:36.30 | goozbach | ~say invoke ops this guy is being a bad person |
| 22:36.39 | ibot | invoke ops this guy is being a bad person |
| 22:36.59 | Tene | ~say invoke ops goozbach is a moose |
| 22:37.01 | ibot | invoke ops goozbach is a moose |
| 22:37.47 | vontrapp | ~invoke ops chase off goozbach |
| 22:37.59 | vontrapp | ~say invoke ops chase off goozbach |
| 22:38.01 | ibot | invoke ops chase off goozbach |
| 22:40.13 | *** part/#utah [phoenyx] (n=tthorley@64.147.152.13) |
| 22:40.44 | spr | no voice for me? |
| 22:41.06 | goozbach | sorry spr |
| 22:41.16 | goozbach | we don't think you are important enough |
| 22:41.28 | spr | I understand. |
| 22:41.41 | levi | The channel was invaded by silly 'hackers' and was moderated for a while to get rid of them. |
| 22:42.14 | levi | They all came to call mheath nasty names. |
| 22:43.00 | levi | Because one of them defaced a government website and was stupid enough to brag about it on irc, and mheath reported it somehow and... talked about it on irc. |
| 22:43.55 | vontrapp | elg: qué sobre VPN? |
| 22:43.56 | Tene | best place to look up manufacturer of a NIC by MAC? |
| 22:44.13 | elg | what over the vpn? |
| 22:44.18 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog@208.177.146.102.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:44.26 | vontrapp | blame babelfish |
| 22:44.34 | vontrapp | what's the deal with it? |
| 22:44.35 | *** mode/#utah [+v spr] by elg |
| 22:44.51 | goozbach | ~say invoke ops this guy is being a bad person |
| 22:44.59 | ibot | invoke ops this guy is being a bad person |
| 22:45.14 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (i=Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:45.26 | levi | http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.shtml |
| 22:45.27 | brac | [IEEE Registration Authority - IEEE OUI and Company_id Assignments] |
| 22:47.04 | vontrapp | elg: i said "what about vpn" and babel said "qué sobre vpn" |
| 22:47.31 | vontrapp | i checked sobre in reverse, it said "on", and i guessed on could be for "pertinance" context as well as "position" |
| 22:47.36 | vontrapp | i guessed wrong i guess |
| 22:47.46 | elg | it almost works |
| 22:47.55 | elg | you'd say y que del vpn? |
| 22:47.59 | elg | what of the vpn? |
| 22:48.05 | elg | anyway, what about it? |
| 22:48.17 | vontrapp | caradhras doesn't connect |
| 22:48.37 | vontrapp | i could check why, but just wondering if you've already seen something going on |
| 22:48.47 | vontrapp | since yesterday, afaic |
| 22:49.12 | vontrapp | actually, since saturday |
| 22:49.58 | vontrapp | yikes, my computer just got markedly louder |
| 22:50.22 | vontrapp | i think my fan is on it's way out |
| 22:50.49 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@enterprise.abswa.com) |
| 22:51.08 | vontrapp | sjansen: my fan is dying |
| 22:51.09 | *** join/#utah friocorte (n=dcarter@c-69-244-210-160.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 22:52.10 | friocorte | invoke ops this is a test of the emergency op calling system, if you have recieved a page, then you are an op, if not, don't worry, an operator will be along shortly to beat you about the face and neck if you so need it. |
| 22:55.02 | elg | -lart friocorte |
| 23:03.57 | vontrapp | is gcal b0rked for anyone else? |
| 23:05.58 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog@208.177.146.102.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 23:26.43 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@enterprise.abswa.com) |
| 23:26.51 | *** join/#utah nick125_lappy (n=nick@dsl093-220-003.abq1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:27.50 | *** join/#utah Kalkin (n=Kuja@host86-131-120-224.range86-131.btcentralplus.com) |
| 23:49.17 | *** mode/#utah [+o maquis] by ChanServ |
| 23:49.25 | *** mode/#utah [+b pacifico!*@*] by maquis |
| 23:50.30 | *** mode/#utah [+b meh!*@*] by maquis |
| 23:50.51 | *** mode/#utah [+b ratboy!*@*] by maquis |
| 23:51.13 | vontrapp | was meh one of them? |
| 23:53.00 | *** mode/#utah [+b b-owl!*@*] by maquis |
| 23:53.04 | maquis | did i get them all? |
| 23:53.55 | vontrapp | b-owl was actually rather civilized |
| 23:54.02 | maquis | hmm |
| 23:54.04 | maquis | mok |
| 23:54.13 | *** mode/#utah [-b b-owl!*@*] by maquis |
| 23:54.16 | vontrapp | nick125_lappy: a better (than the default) javascript console-debugger |
| 23:54.22 | maquis | vontrapp: i dunno... i just scanned, and meh appeared to be one of them |
| 23:54.35 | nick125_lappy | vontrapp: nice.. |