| 00:00.06 | tensai | that you'll never get sick or laid off or both? |
| 00:00.22 | levi | Well, I don't leave that much debt on credit cards. |
| 00:00.55 | tensai | that's good too, and neither do I |
| 00:01.04 | tensai | don't have any credit cards in fact |
| 00:01.21 | levi | Time to head home. |
| 00:06.48 | tensai | gee silly, that's why |
| 00:07.06 | vontrapp | i know that's why, i still give it the :/ |
| 00:07.15 | tensai | ah, I see |
| 00:07.16 | vontrapp | i think the world is silly |
| 00:07.29 | tensai | it's only of those age old catch-22s. gotta have credit to get credit. |
| 00:08.00 | vontrapp | i've forgotten about byu's health thing payments a couple times |
| 00:08.08 | vontrapp | maybe they're looking at those, too |
| 00:08.13 | tensai | a good history of paying rent will often be used |
| 00:08.24 | tensai | nah, probably not. have you checked your credit report? |
| 00:08.30 | vontrapp | well heck, i've been paying rent for 3+ years |
| 00:08.35 | vontrapp | 5 if you count the mission |
| 00:08.50 | vontrapp | i tried once, the report never came |
| 00:08.53 | tensai | stuff like that won't go on your credit report unless you're sent to collections. typically. |
| 00:09.00 | tensai | annualcreditreport.com |
| 00:09.30 | tensai | the 3 agencies are required to give you a report once a year |
| 00:09.59 | macnewbold | highly recommended |
| 00:10.18 | tensai | I think my first personal line of credit was RC Willey when I bought the washer |
| 00:10.22 | macnewbold | you may want to space them out: get one from one of them every 4 months |
| 00:10.41 | macnewbold | RC Willey makes a lot more from credit than from furniture |
| 00:10.41 | tensai | since they're mostly duplicate data, that's a good idea |
| 00:10.41 | vontrapp | you'd think my bank would have enough financial history on me to approve a loan, but no... |
| 00:10.47 | macnewbold | and a lot of RC Willey customers file bankruptcy |
| 00:11.00 | tensai | macnewbold: not from me. we had the money saved up and payed it over over 60 days |
| 00:11.08 | tensai | s/over over/off over/ |
| 00:11.34 | tensai | the salesman told us we had to pay it for 6 months for it to show up on our record. baloney |
| 00:11.35 | vontrapp | over over |
| 00:11.44 | vontrapp | roger roger |
| 00:11.49 | tensai | we paid it over, and over, and over... :) |
| 00:12.13 | vontrapp | tensai: just pay me next time. i'll put five stars on my report |
| 00:12.19 | macnewbold | yeah, the no-interest, same-as-cash things are handy if you've got the discipline to actually pay them in time |
| 00:12.36 | tensai | macnewbold: yeah, didn't mean to discredit what you were saying. I completely believe you. |
| 00:13.09 | macnewbold | I know |
| 00:13.27 | macnewbold | yeah, my dad goes down there almost every time they have free food |
| 00:13.32 | macnewbold | never buys anything though... |
| 00:13.38 | vontrapp | yourcreditreport.payvon.com |
| 00:13.57 | tensai | countless times we went there just for the food, and we were planning on getting it somewhere anyway |
| 00:14.08 | tensai | but the free food thing works |
| 00:14.58 | tensai | vontrapp: payvon? do you sell beauty products door to door? |
| 00:15.22 | vontrapp | oh yeah, i beautify your credit :) |
| 00:17.20 | vontrapp | hmm, firefox session saver is nice and all, but i find i never wipe my tabs clean, and they just pile up... and up... |
| 00:17.31 | vontrapp | and up |
| 00:17.52 | tensai | doctor, it hurts when I do this... |
| 00:20.11 | vontrapp | bah, my mplayer plugin just stops |
| 00:21.04 | flyboy^ | I wish I had a laptop sometimes. Like when I want to go to a PLUG meeting. |
| 00:23.37 | nick125 | I wish I had a laptop that has a working battery and doesn't segfault so often |
| 00:24.01 | flyboy^ | NUPM is at 6:30, right? |
| 00:24.12 | flyboy^ | well, I think it is - so I better head out. |
| 00:24.27 | nick125 | wewt...13 players on bzflag! |
| 00:34.58 | *** part/#utah atoponce (n=atoponce@216.20.234.60) |
| 00:47.27 | hans | someone needs to get off their can and add at least superscripts/subscripts to graphviz |
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| 01:49.21 | harleypig | so, where is everone? Why aren't you here at plug? |
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| 02:30.41 | harleypig | I have a limited set of numbers, non-contiguous (e.g., 1-5, 11-43, 47) and I can't depend on it being the same every time. I need to break down a larger number into a number that exists in that list. |
| 02:30.45 | harleypig | Any ideas? |
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| 02:44.47 | flyboy^ | Fun meeting. |
| 02:44.54 | flyboy^ | Thanks to the presenters! |
| 02:47.57 | BL4 | ... |
| 02:48.51 | vontrapp | harleypig: how do you mean, 'break down'? |
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| 03:46.09 | QBFreak | harleypig: example? you're not making sense to me |
| 03:46.43 | QBFreak | in other news, I bought some "Pirates of the Caribbean" cereal on impulse today |
| 03:47.08 | QBFreak | I can't see how anyone could feed their child this for breakfast |
| 03:47.41 | QBFreak | not if they expect them to be anything but completly wired all day |
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| 03:48.16 | vontrapp | QBFreak: but they have ridillin |
| 03:48.31 | QBFreak | I suppose thats like taking pills to wake up and pills to go to sleep |
| 03:48.50 | vontrapp | or is it ridilin |
| 03:48.59 | vontrapp | ~spell ridilin |
| 03:49.13 | QBFreak | Ritalin looks about right |
| 03:49.51 | QBFreak | http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/06/05/10/2331237.shtml |
| 03:52.04 | mheath | Oh, thanks! |
| 03:52.12 | mheath | So much for teachers being kind and nurturing education |
| 03:52.40 | mheath | According to my records, you turned in nothing. You have an F. I hope you need the credit you need to graduate." |
| 03:53.00 | mheath | ~lart Blackboard |
| 03:53.28 | nick125 | anyone here up for some bzflag? :D |
| 03:53.57 | nick125 | spitfire.atarack.com if anyone is interested :P |
| 03:53.59 | mheath | No, I DON'T have the credit I need to graduate |
| 03:54.13 | mheath | So, despite working my but off for the past 4 weeks..... |
| 03:54.18 | mheath | Spending $180 on packets... |
| 03:54.29 | mheath | Thanks, I'm NOT going to graduate! |
| 03:59.45 | mheath | What am I supposed to do? |
| 04:00.05 | mheath | Same situation again..... 0.75 credit that I KNOW I did...but the assignments never went through |
| 04:00.32 | mheath | I sent out graduation announcements and everything. I thought I was good to go (again). |
| 04:00.43 | QBFreak | you've already politely explained to the teacher the situation? |
| 04:00.50 | QBFreak | perhaps asked for alternatives? |
| 04:02.39 | mheath | QBFreak, its beyond alternatives. |
| 04:02.48 | mheath | I was supposed to graduate in a week and a half |
| 04:02.56 | mheath | Those courses WERE the alternative to something. |
| 04:03.11 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@gateway.publicvpn.net) |
| 04:03.35 | QBFreak | have you explained things to the counsler that got you set up with this in the first place? |
| 04:06.32 | mheath | QBFreak, going to tomorrow |
| 04:06.44 | QBFreak | looked for your lost USB key? |
| 04:07.10 | mheath | yep, couldn't find it. |
| 04:07.16 | QBFreak | :( |
| 04:09.23 | mheath | I'm tired of this rollercoaster |
| 04:09.38 | mheath | and I'm fed up with how much work and money I put into all of this, to have it all be for nothing |
| 04:09.55 | QBFreak | yeah |
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| 04:42.22 | findlay | Haydn's 67th symphony r0x0rz |
| 04:43.01 | findlay | the London Symphonies echo a lot of the next 100 years of symphonic development |
| 04:43.16 | findlay | no wonder that Haydn is the father of the symphony |
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| 04:59.35 | levi_ | Another long night of baby-feeding... |
| 05:05.22 | findlay | I' |
| 05:05.22 | findlay | m so lazy |
| 05:05.23 | findlay | who put that <enter> key there? |
| 05:05.34 | findlay | it, like, takes up half the keyboard |
| 05:05.38 | QBFreak | some guy who was too lazy to move it |
| 05:06.27 | findlay | maybe I should remap <enter> to keypad - |
| 05:06.38 | findlay | that would get it out of the way |
| 05:06.42 | QBFreak | I'-m so lazy ? |
| 05:07.43 | findlay | yeah |
| 05:08.33 | QBFreak | and tomorrow I hack up a case |
| 05:08.45 | QBFreak | I think I'm officially insane |
| 05:09.08 | QBFreak | a PC that can interface with the buttons and the display! |
| 05:10.04 | findlay | that's cool! |
| 05:10.12 | QBFreak | crap...I should have added an infrared receiver (or transceiver) to my digikey order |
| 05:10.45 | QBFreak | 700mhz celeron, its going to mainly just play my music |
| 05:10.58 | QBFreak | I suppose its actually overkill for that, but its what I've got that fits |
| 05:11.09 | findlay | QBFreak: check this out: http://www.lunkwill.org/gadgetboard/index.html |
| 05:11.10 | brac | [Gadgetboard] |
| 05:11.55 | QBFreak | that is on my bookmark wishlist |
| 05:12.23 | QBFreak | it wont work for what I need, I need 10 input pins (arranging 22 buttons into a 5x5 grid) |
| 05:12.53 | QBFreak | and 23ish outputs (5 grids at 18 segments), or whatever it takes to drive the 10 latches I just ordered |
| 05:13.12 | QBFreak | I am purchasing under advice of a friend who has a degree in this sort of thing :) |
| 05:13.32 | findlay | I haven't gotten into electronics yet and it's probably a good thing |
| 05:13.41 | QBFreak | yeah |
| 05:13.44 | QBFreak | I'd go broke |
| 05:13.58 | QBFreak | oo I can interface that to this with one of those? *orders 5* |
| 05:14.14 | QBFreak | ooo it blinks! *orders 10* |
| 05:14.33 | findlay | when I bought my car I started obsessively replacing parts and fixing things |
| 05:14.45 | QBFreak | heh |
| 05:14.49 | findlay | now I'm pretty much unafraid to do anything to a car |
| 05:15.20 | QBFreak | I'm not a big car person, but with the help of a book I can usually do most things |
| 05:15.43 | findlay | I have to tell myself that everything is OK, and stop obsessing about things |
| 05:15.58 | QBFreak | wanna borrow my car? |
| 05:16.04 | QBFreak | the new door handle is only $100... |
| 05:16.16 | findlay | junkyard |
| 05:16.21 | QBFreak | they crushed them all |
| 05:16.26 | findlay | especially self-service junkyard |
| 05:16.35 | QBFreak | yeah, I've wandered around a few of those |
| 05:16.48 | findlay | there's a really nice one in SLC |
| 05:16.49 | QBFreak | I found one once, and then they crushed it a week before the last time I went back |
| 05:17.51 | findlay | I usually find that car documentation is more confusing than the car itself |
| 05:19.12 | QBFreak | heh |
| 05:19.34 | QBFreak | I bought my car from a mechanic and told me I can ask him if I ever need to know anything, its nice |
| 05:19.58 | QBFreak | I imagine the book would have confused me trying to explain how the engine has to rotate forward to get to the alternator |
| 05:22.26 | findlay | QBFreak: you might know. Where can I find a good DAC/amp for audio (stereo or 7.1)? |
| 05:22.34 | findlay | that's cheap? (: |
| 05:24.30 | levi_ | Whee, vomit. |
| 05:25.29 | QBFreak | levi_: fuuun |
| 05:25.43 | findlay | ~vomit |
| 05:25.44 | ibot | ACTION vomit findlay |
| 05:25.46 | QBFreak | findlay: not a clue |
| 05:25.58 | QBFreak | ibot: you confuse me |
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| 05:26.45 | QBFreak | findlay: I'm more of a hacker, I'll rewire something, replace a broken component or cable, but much more is out of my expertise |
| 05:27.27 | QBFreak | this is most likely the most adventurous project I've taken on, and I'm only doing it because I know someone who knows enough to do it :) |
| 05:29.54 | QBFreak | I don't think I have the patience to learn about this stuff either, my attention span is too short |
| 05:32.57 | findlay | it looks like this is about as cheap as I'll get http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=DBDRPA&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=261160 |
| 05:33.10 | findlay | although that thing does more than just DAC |
| 05:33.44 | QBFreak | ah, I'm not too good with sound stuff either |
| 05:33.54 | QBFreak | I was thinking you were looking for a component |
| 05:34.44 | findlay | I just want a high quality DAC to listen to music with |
| 05:35.11 | findlay | something seperate from the playback device and seperate from the speakers |
| 05:35.13 | QBFreak | I just want to be able to play CDs on my stereo again |
| 05:35.17 | QBFreak | and MP3s would be awesome too |
| 05:35.33 | QBFreak | and a remote would be nice |
| 05:36.39 | findlay | maybe digital speakers |
| 05:44.36 | xbmodder_lappy | hey |
| 05:51.00 | QBFreak | bah, db-9 connectors were not designed to be soldered more than once |
| 05:54.30 | levi_ | Jeez, it's midnight already and I haven't got anything done on my project. |
| 05:54.46 | levi_ | Baby is still wide awake. |
| 05:58.31 | maquis | levi_: one of my friends has a baby who's a little over a year old, i think... i was just reading her blog, and she made a funny comment |
| 05:58.50 | herlo | levi_: a little bit of nyquil will but the baby right to sleep :-D |
| 05:59.08 | maquis | she was saying that whenever her baby is in a good mood, he says "da da da da", and whenever he's in a bad mood, he says "ma ma ma" |
| 06:31.08 | levi_ | gnuplot is awesome. |
| 06:31.40 | levi_ | Firefox is not happy with the 2.4M png file, though. |
| 06:33.51 | xbmodder_lappy | levi_, whats the project? |
| 06:41.56 | levi_ | I have a graph of me shaking the accelerometer. |
| 06:43.11 | levi_ | It's at http://lifeoflevi.com/graph.png if anyone's curious. |
| 06:43.41 | levi_ | That one's only 34k, and firefox has no trouble with it. |
| 06:46.21 | maquis | -lart classes that assume that everyone uses m$ word |
| 06:47.14 | levi_ | graph2.png is what the signal looks like up close when the accelerometer is at rest. |
| 06:48.45 | levi_ | The x axis is in milliseconds, the y is in Gs. |
| 06:56.17 | xbmodder_lappy | me! |
| 06:56.53 | levi_ | If you read what I was saying, you would see I addressed it to anyone who is curious about what I'm doing. |
| 06:57.02 | levi_ | Which would include xbmodder_lappy, since he asked. |
| 06:57.06 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 06:58.23 | xbmodder_lappy | levi_, is the accelerometer mounted, or is the variation of in force created by mere shaking of the mount? |
| 06:58.40 | levi_ | It's not mounted, it's sitting on a desk. |
| 06:58.48 | levi_ | In graph.png, I am shaking it in my hand. |
| 06:58.57 | levi_ | In graph2.png, I am letting it sit. |
| 06:59.26 | xbmodder_lappy | oh |
| 06:59.47 | levi_ | The variations in graph2.png are basically noise in the signal. |
| 07:02.18 | maquis | levi_: ah... |
| 07:02.38 | maquis | it just seemed like you talked for a while with no interaction... :) |
| 07:04.55 | levi_ | I do that all the time. I can't help it if people don't appreciate what I have to say. ;) |
| 07:08.34 | maquis | lol |
| 07:09.37 | xbmodder_lappy | levi_, are you cleaning/filtering the signal? |
| 07:10.29 | levi_ | xbmodder_lappy: Not yet. |
| 07:10.54 | maquis | gnight all |
| 07:11.41 | xbmodder_lappy | night |
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| 12:22.49 | sjansen | -rlart |
| 12:24.05 | sjansen | ~rlart |
| 12:24.12 | sjansen | ~botsnack |
| 12:24.12 | ibot | sjansen: aw, gee |
| 12:24.36 | sjansen | o/~ Whistling, whistling, whistling in the dark ~/o |
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| 12:41.06 | mheath | http://www.navalseacadetstucson.com/ab.jpg |
| 12:41.10 | mheath | Yikes, that stuff changes people |
| 12:41.28 | sjansen | engrish.com++ |
| 12:41.40 | mheath | Last time I saw the guy ont he left, it was like 2 AM in the morning...He was a slacker.... |
| 12:42.49 | mheath | He's like....barely recognizable. |
| 12:56.02 | sjansen | http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3092.html |
| 12:56.03 | brac | [RFC 3092 (rfc3092) - Etymology of "Foo"] |
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| 13:08.51 | hans | the things you do for dilvie |
| 13:10.44 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 13:19.35 | elg | -lart hans |
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| 13:48.18 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 14:07.11 | goozbach | RedHat's directory server makes LDAP fun |
| 14:08.10 | mrpull- | goozbach: AD makes LDAP _easy_ :-P |
| 14:08.24 | Jayce^ | ~beat mrpull- |
| 14:08.26 | ibot | ACTION beats mrpull- with a wetfish |
| 14:09.48 | sjansen | VS? |
| 14:10.07 | sjansen | ~lart mrpull- |
| 14:18.49 | sjansen | Argh. I really hate hearing "when would someone actually use that?" or "we'll never actually use that". |
| 14:19.44 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:20.35 | redman1 | ~lart sjansen's class |
| 14:20.48 | redman1 | that'll learn 'em |
| 14:20.50 | sjansen | Most of the class is fine. |
| 14:21.18 | redman1 | oh. well. |
| 14:21.29 | redman1 | ~lart the ones that need it |
| 14:22.02 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:24.12 | redman1 | i think it's like the dad trying to be the "cool dad" for the kids |
| 14:25.32 | redman1 | he wants to show "the team" that he's hip with the tech-no ling-o |
| 14:25.43 | redman1 | just a guess |
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| 14:27.53 | sjansen | redman1: Already at work? Shame on you. |
| 14:28.15 | Jayce^ | at work does not mean he is working.. |
| 14:28.34 | sjansen | Jayce^: I've known you long enough to realize that. ;-) |
| 14:29.02 | Jayce^ | you have learned, grasshopper |
| 14:30.18 | redman1 | hey, i'm doing work-type stuff |
| 14:30.38 | Jayce^ | eg 'moving DATA' :) |
| 14:30.46 | sjansen | As in, "I type at work" and "I'm typing now too". |
| 14:30.50 | redman1 | i mean, i work with computers for a living, right? and i'm using the computer right now, right? |
| 14:31.00 | redman1 | sjansen: i think you've got it |
| 14:47.59 | goozbach | I work with linux for a living, right? |
| 14:48.12 | goozbach | most IRC servers are running under linux, right? |
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| 15:04.51 | graphyx | Hey dataw0lf |
| 15:11.36 | ^Migs^ | http://www.google.com/trends |
| 15:11.37 | brac | [Google Trends] |
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| 15:20.05 | elg | sjansen: I enjoy, when in the right frame of mind, making up horror stories about when they will need that |
| 15:20.15 | elg | kind of like the guy on jurassic park explaining the raptor |
| 15:22.48 | graphyx | ^Migs^: I can't get a request through at all. Gives errors with every request. |
| 15:24.16 | ^Migs^ | my requests work fine |
| 15:28.53 | sjansen | http://www.google.com/trends?q=sailor+moon%2C+sco&ctab=0&date=all&geo=all |
| 15:28.54 | brac | [Google Trends: sailor moon, sco] |
| 15:30.18 | Jayce^ | beauty |
| 15:30.22 | graphyx | is anyone else getting errors on that? |
| 15:30.25 | graphyx | Or is it our proxy here? |
| 15:30.46 | Jayce^ | WFM (works for me |
| 15:30.52 | graphyx | k thx |
| 15:30.54 | sjansen | http://www.google.com/trends?q=flock+of+seagulls%2C+furby&ctab=0&date=all&geo=all |
| 15:30.55 | brac | [Google Trends: flock of seagulls, furby] |
| 15:33.06 | sjansen | http://www.google.com/trends?q=free+money%2C+paris+hilton |
| 15:33.07 | brac | [Google Trends: free money, paris hilton] |
| 15:34.17 | ^Migs^ | http://www.google.com/trends?q=spice+girls%2C+pokemon&ctab=0&date=all&geo=all |
| 15:34.18 | brac | [Google Trends: spice girls, pokemon] |
| 15:34.47 | ^Migs^ | http://www.google.com/trends?q=he-man%2C+go-bots%2C+transformers%2C+my+little+pony%2C+strawberry+shortcake&ctab=0&date=all&geo=all |
| 15:34.49 | brac | [Google Trends: he-man, go-bots, transformers, my little pony, strawberry shortcake] |
| 15:35.08 | elg | http://www.google.com/trends?q=asterisk&ctab=0&date=all&geo=all |
| 15:35.10 | brac | [Google Trends: asterisk] |
| 15:35.21 | redman1 | my mother always warned me about hanging out with the wrong crowd. and now i know why. |
| 15:35.49 | ^Migs^ | wow, Salt Lake City is the #2 location for searches on Strawberry Shortcake, right after San Juan, Puerto Rico: http://www.google.com/trends?q=strawberry+shortcake&ctab=0&date=all&geo=all |
| 15:35.50 | brac | [Google Trends: strawberry shortcake] |
| 15:36.09 | elg | Pokemon may be a master switch for cancer |
| 15:36.15 | graphyx | anyone else pick up the mormon reference on www.woot.com? |
| 15:36.40 | elg | anyone else know what woot.com is? |
| 15:36.48 | ^Migs^ | who doesn't? |
| 15:37.19 | ^Migs^ | hahahahaha |
| 15:37.25 | ^Migs^ | those were great commercials |
| 15:37.28 | graphyx | elg: It's a sell one thing a day site till they run out of quantity. |
| 15:37.36 | ^Migs^ | crap |
| 15:37.38 | ^Migs^ | I need to get one of those |
| 15:38.16 | *** join/#utah RyanE (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 15:38.19 | elg | ah, but will it work in linux? |
| 15:38.44 | ^Migs^ | I really need to check w00t more often |
| 15:38.49 | ^Migs^ | I just forget about it |
| 15:40.46 | Jayce^ | SLC is the #1 search location for mythtv |
| 15:40.50 | sjansen | Yeah, I really need to be tempted daily to buy some junk I've managed to live with out so far. |
| 15:42.04 | ^Migs^ | can you search by city and see what everyone is searching for? |
| 15:42.10 | ^Migs^ | or do you have to enter in a search term |
| 15:42.39 | ^Migs^ | meh, you can't search by city |
| 15:42.42 | ^Migs^ | Google Trends BLOWS |
| 15:42.59 | ^Migs^ | barely even useful |
| 15:43.22 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 15:44.04 | sjansen | http://www.google.com/search?q=Jayce%5E+kills+kittens&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official |
| 15:44.06 | brac | [Jayce^ kills kittens - Google Search] |
| 15:44.10 | sjansen | http://www.google.com/search?q=%5EMigs%5E+kills+kittens&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official |
| 15:44.11 | brac | [^Migs^ kills kittens - Google Search] |
| 15:44.34 | sjansen | Jayce^: 429 ^Migs^: 32,600 |
| 15:44.44 | sjansen | It's official, ^Migs^ is more evil than Jayce^. |
| 15:45.24 | ^Migs^ | http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=migs&type=1 |
| 15:45.25 | brac | [Googlism] |
| 15:46.04 | ^Migs^ | I like that migs is a god |
| 15:46.14 | ^Migs^ | er, that "migs is a god" line |
| 15:49.46 | Jayce^ | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=stuart+kills+kittens&btnG=Google+Search |
| 15:49.47 | brac | [stuart kills kittens - Google Search] |
| 15:49.55 | Jayce^ | 356,000 |
| 15:49.59 | Jayce^ | seriously evil |
| 15:50.25 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 15:51.53 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@c-67-166-97-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:52.06 | sjansen | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=sjansen+kills+kittens&btnG=Search |
| 15:52.08 | brac | [sjansen kills kittens - Google Search] |
| 15:52.20 | sjansen | 16 - not so evil |
| 15:52.42 | ^Migs^ | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=brac+kills+kittens |
| 15:52.43 | brac | [brac kills kittens - Google Search] |
| 15:52.47 | ^Migs^ | 897 |
| 15:53.13 | sjansen | Must've been some other Stuart. Like Stuart Stalin-Hitler, illegitamate of Stalin's illegimate son and Hitler's illegitmate daughter. |
| 15:53.41 | ^Migs^ | yeah, that's it *snort* |
| 15:54.20 | ^Migs^ | http://www.justinreeve.com/ugliestcat1.jpg |
| 15:56.12 | flyboy^ | I really enjoyed the PLUG/NUPM last night. Thanks United Online for hosting it. |
| 15:57.04 | spr | It was a pretty cool meeting. |
| 15:58.21 | levi | Mmmm, kiwi |
| 15:58.40 | maquis | spr: anything this week for uug? |
| 16:00.08 | spr | maquis, nope. |
| 16:00.11 | Jayce^ | flyboy^, glad you came |
| 16:04.43 | sjansen | http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1769108,00.html |
| 16:06.48 | sjansen | I keep reading about all this "really smart people" who work for Microsoft. |
| 16:07.20 | sjansen | Sure, they're got some amazing people in their research division. But I haven't met any really great developers working for Microsoft. |
| 16:07.52 | sjansen | All the people I've known that were hired by MS to actually right code were pretty mediocre. Not incompetent, but not stellar either. |
| 16:08.16 | sjansen | All of the really amazing people I know either started their own company or are doing stuff with Linux. |
| 16:08.20 | sjansen | *shrug* |
| 16:08.55 | levi | I know a pretty smart girl who works in their embedded division. |
| 16:09.04 | levi | Went to high school with her. |
| 16:09.08 | levi | She went on to go to Yale or something. |
| 16:10.29 | levi | The sad thing is, they /do/ have lots of really smart people working on cool things in their research division. It's just that none of that work gets integrated into their main products. |
| 16:10.52 | levi | At least not in a way that makes any big difference in the quality of said products. |
| 16:11.17 | levi | There's /way/ too much legacy garbage in Windows for it to make any progress. |
| 16:11.35 | *** join/#utah EvilHerbivore (n=dave@c-67-161-208-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:17.41 | obfuscated | We just made CIO Insight magazine |
| 16:17.47 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 16:17.51 | obfuscated | http://www.cioinsight.com/article2/0,1540,1959010,00.asp |
| 16:17.53 | brac | [Case Study: Backcountry.com bets the shop on open source] |
| 16:18.08 | obfuscated | and our CTO lied - he doesn't ski every week ;-) |
| 16:18.37 | obfuscated | My Keyword Management System made the cut though |
| 16:19.41 | sjansen | obfuscated: Obviously it'd be kinda difficult for him to ski in July. |
| 16:20.10 | obfuscated | sjansen: good observation ;-) |
| 16:20.14 | sjansen | obfuscated: But just in case, I'd sell all your stock anyway. A lying C*O is a bad sign. |
| 16:20.25 | obfuscated | no - if you saw our CTO you'd laugh |
| 16:20.43 | obfuscated | The rest of the article is great though |
| 16:20.49 | sjansen | obfuscated: If you hurry, I'll give you 50cents on the dollar, but that's the best I can do. |
| 16:20.58 | obfuscated | sjansen: I wish I had stock |
| 16:22.56 | ^Migs^ | it's nice to see companies utilizing open source programs |
| 16:23.57 | ^Migs^ | it doesn't say whether or not Jenkins actually made the statement that he "hits the slopes at least once a week." The writer may have just thrown that on for umph, or based on hearsay. |
| 16:25.15 | obfuscated | ^Migs^: that's what I'm thinking - I was mainly joking. I thought that statement was funny. |
| 16:28.57 | *** join/#utah atoponce (n=atoponce@216.20.234.60) |
| 16:30.24 | tensai | levi: I thought that's what NT was for, toss out the garbage and reinvent VMS^W^W come up with a better OS |
| 16:32.27 | levi | tensai: Yes, but then they had to add all the backwards-compatibility cruft back into it to turn it into a consumer OS. |
| 16:40.47 | levi | http://weblog.raganwald.com/2004/07/emperors-old-clothes.html |
| 16:40.49 | brac | [Raganwald: The Emperor's Old Clothes] |
| 16:51.06 | sjansen | That's a cool story. :-) |
| 16:53.07 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=herlo@67.134.21.162) |
| 16:53.24 | levi | C. A. R. Hoare is cool. |
| 16:54.12 | herlo | ibot: herlo is also very cool |
| 16:54.14 | ibot | herlo: cannot alter locked factoids |
| 16:54.31 | herlo | ibot: go away |
| 16:54.32 | ibot | /server irc.rt.ru |
| 16:54.47 | herlo | ibot: hello ibot |
| 16:54.55 | herlo | ibot: do you love me? |
| 16:54.56 | ibot | yes, I love me. |
| 16:55.31 | herlo | levi: whats up? |
| 16:55.58 | herlo | graphyx: you there? |
| 16:56.17 | levi | herlo: Just workin'. Trying to track down a bug. |
| 16:57.06 | herlo | cool, I am doing a demo of irc for my GL 120 class, thanx for responding |
| 16:58.26 | sjansen | ibot: do you love sjansen? |
| 16:58.27 | ibot | yes, I love sjansen. |
| 16:58.34 | sjansen | ~botsnack |
| 16:58.34 | ibot | thanks, sjansen |
| 16:58.40 | sjansen | ibot: do you love emcnabb |
| 16:58.41 | ibot | yes, I love emcnabb. |
| 16:58.42 | sjansen | ? |
| 16:58.52 | sjansen | ibot: No! No you don't! You love only me! |
| 16:59.14 | sjansen | -punish ibot |
| 16:59.14 | tensai | ~abuse sjansen |
| 16:59.16 | ibot | ACTION smacks sjansen across the face. "Take that, sucker!" |
| 16:59.24 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=Hhhhh@158.91.201.220) |
| 17:08.21 | scottj | so I need to install apache, mysql, php and FTP on a RHEL3 server, but I'm coming from debian and I don't know what to do w/o apt. is up2date what I use to install these or do I have to go find rpms and download and install them manually? |
| 17:08.32 | sjansen | Nice, I've been upgraded to first class. :-) |
| 17:08.48 | sjansen | East coast trips is where it really counts. |
| 17:09.07 | Hhhhh | SUSE 10.1 released!! :) |
| 17:09.40 | sjansen | Hhhhh: Psah, that's old news. I've been downloading it for hours now. |
| 17:09.59 | Hhhhh | scottj, the program to download RPMs and install them in RHEL is probably yum |
| 17:10.06 | redman1 | suse? people still use that? |
| 17:10.07 | sjansen | No, it isn't. |
| 17:10.18 | Hhhhh | redman1, yes, all the cool people use SUSE now |
| 17:10.24 | Hhhhh | what, you don't? :O |
| 17:10.28 | redman1 | ^_^ |
| 17:10.31 | sjansen | On RHEL4, the command is up2date. IIRC, it was on RHEL3 also. Been awhile. |
| 17:10.32 | Hhhhh | that's fine, you have your freedom not to be cool |
| 17:10.37 | redman1 | actually, i use ubuntu |
| 17:10.39 | redman1 | and gnome |
| 17:10.50 | Hhhhh | that's ok, I forgive you |
| 17:10.54 | Hhhhh | just don't do it again |
| 17:10.54 | sjansen | Hhhhh: yum is for the Fedoras |
| 17:10.55 | Hhhhh | ;) |
| 17:11.09 | Hhhhh | sjansen, gotcha, I've only used Fedora, not RHEL |
| 17:11.41 | sjansen | scottj: Do you have a current subscription to RHN? |
| 17:11.57 | scottj | N? |
| 17:12.33 | Hhhhh | Red Hat Network |
| 17:12.34 | sjansen | Red Hat Network, it provides software, updates, and server management tools. |
| 17:12.52 | scottj | I don't know |
| 17:12.58 | sjansen | Find out. |
| 17:13.37 | dataw0lf | sjansen: on RHEL3 it's up2date too |
| 17:13.46 | sjansen | Let's assume your company is smart and they've kept the contract current. Then you can use the RHN tools like up2date. |
| 17:13.51 | sjansen | dataw0lf: Thanks. |
| 17:13.59 | dataw0lf | np |
| 17:14.44 | scottj | sjansen, up2date works, but I'm not finding any apache package with it |
| 17:14.52 | sjansen | It's called httpd. |
| 17:17.56 | sjansen | Hhhhh: By the way, I'm one of the original cool people and I use Fedora. |
| 17:18.46 | *** join/#utah Kuyaedz (n=Kuyaedz@kuyaedz.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 17:19.00 | sjansen | Guess he couldn't stand my coolness. |
| 17:19.14 | Kuyaedz | can anyone point me to the function/app (gimp?) where I can scale all images in a folder? |
| 17:19.18 | redman1 | sjansen: something like that |
| 17:19.36 | sjansen | Kuyaedz: convert, it's part of ImageMagick |
| 17:20.40 | goozbach | imagemagick++ |
| 17:20.48 | goozbach | up2date works without RHN |
| 17:20.58 | goozbach | look at /etc/sysconfig/rhn/sources |
| 17:21.09 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 17:21.15 | goozbach | it needs an older yum repo on the back end however |
| 17:21.23 | goozbach | (pre XML repodata) |
| 17:21.23 | *** join/#utah tyce (n=tyce@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 17:23.06 | sjansen | goozbach: You're talking newer versions of up2date. I don't think the RHEL3 version of up2date supported yum backends. |
| 17:24.32 | goozbach | hmm |
| 17:24.38 | goozbach | I'll have to look into that |
| 17:24.47 | goozbach | ohh, blade chassis |
| 17:25.01 | goozbach | ~$18k |
| 17:42.28 | *** part/#utah Kuyaedz (n=Kuyaedz@kuyaedz.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 17:53.49 | goozbach | note to self: local varibles should reside inside the loop to which they should be local |
| 17:54.10 | redman1 | goozbach: ouch |
| 17:54.18 | redman1 | hate it when that happens |
| 17:54.34 | goozbach | yeah, I spend lunch querying the AD domains. |
| 17:54.41 | goozbach | over and over and over and over again. |
| 17:55.29 | sjansen | AD-- |
| 17:55.52 | sjansen | goozbach~~ |
| 17:56.28 | goozbach | ~~? |
| 17:56.30 | ibot | Every moment in which im called upon is torture |
| 17:56.38 | sjansen | !!^ |
| 17:56.46 | goozbach | ~~? |
| 17:56.48 | ibot | Every moment in which im called upon is torture |
| 17:56.56 | graphyx | ibot you are starting to sound like marvin!! |
| 17:56.58 | ibot | graphyx: what are you talking about? |
| 17:57.10 | sjansen | %. |
| 17:57.13 | sjansen | oops |
| 17:57.15 | sjansen | %. |
| 17:57.18 | sjansen | bah |
| 17:57.24 | sjansen | %%. |
| 17:57.50 | sjansen | %u %s |
| 17:58.08 | sjansen | wonder if that's a bug |
| 17:58.14 | sjansen | %. |
| 17:58.23 | sjansen | %. %. %. %. %. |
| 17:58.46 | sjansen | %. %% % %%. |
| 17:59.06 | sjansen | So is everyone else seeing mostly just one percent sign? |
| 17:59.35 | Jayce^ | no |
| 18:00.10 | sjansen | Jayce^: I'm using x-chat. And you? |
| 18:00.24 | QBFreak | sjansen: http://pastebin.com/711879 |
| 18:00.55 | sjansen | QBFreak: thanks, that's what I'm seeing too. |
| 18:01.03 | QBFreak | thats in IRSSI |
| 18:01.37 | sjansen | Guess I've learned something new about IRC. Not sure exactly _what_ I've learned, but I've learned something. |
| 18:01.50 | Jayce^ | sjansen, x-chat (aqua) |
| 18:03.51 | sjansen | Ah well, back to what I was doing. |
| 18:04.02 | sjansen | goozbach: &&^!!! |
| 18:07.19 | *** join/#utah EvilHerbivore (n=dave@c-67-161-208-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:14.18 | *** join/#utah Jayce (n=Jayce_@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 18:15.58 | synic | is there a way to have vim draw a column marker at line 80 ? |
| 18:17.41 | *** join/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:18.15 | sjansen | synic: not that I'm aware of |
| 18:20.19 | synic | what about having it always show the column position somewhere? |
| 18:20.30 | sjansen | :set ruler |
| 18:20.55 | synic | thanks |
| 18:22.11 | sjansen | you probably also want :set statusline |
| 18:23.43 | goozbach | :set number |
| 18:23.47 | goozbach | :set autoindent |
| 18:23.56 | goozbach | :set us up the bomb |
| 18:26.26 | sjansen | My eyes! The pain! The pain! |
| 18:29.19 | ^Migs^ | go smack the crap out of him |
| 18:43.46 | bonez39 | I want to mail a file 'new' using mutt, to 'recipient' can I do this with cat, and not have to open mutt, just cat the file to mutt and have it send? |
| 18:46.17 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 18:47.08 | vontrapp | bonez39: yeah, cat file | mutt recipient -s subject |
| 18:49.11 | goozbach | sjansen: you were packet sniffing through your nat, right? |
| 18:53.32 | vontrapp | the python spyce server dies randomly |
| 18:53.36 | vontrapp | the db stuff is a mess |
| 18:54.35 | bonez39 | vontrapp, thank you....I'll file that way |
| 18:54.54 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp21.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 18:55.03 | vontrapp | -lart elg |
| 18:58.58 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 19:04.25 | ^Migs^ | check this out. Some I know who knows someone who knows the cast members to The Office painted this, and it ended up on the cast members' Myspace: http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/photoshopmonkey5/officecrew.jpg |
| 19:05.27 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 19:05.27 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 19:05.50 | *** join/#utah GvzEvxre (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 19:05.50 | *** mode/#utah [+o GvzEvxre] by ChanServ |
| 19:08.47 | elg | this is rich |
| 19:08.48 | elg | http://tinyurl.com/rym53 |
| 19:14.57 | levi | Heh. |
| 19:14.58 | tensai | this is rich too. http://tinyurl.com/2veef |
| 19:15.05 | levi | There are idiots everywhere. |
| 19:15.24 | elg | :) |
| 19:17.36 | obfuscated | question - how does RoR scale if an app needed to grow very large? Could a large corporation handle running it for a very large customer base? |
| 19:18.07 | elg | i'm sure you'll get a better answer in #rubyonrails |
| 19:18.44 | obfuscated | I want an unbiased answer :-) |
| 19:18.56 | elg | unless someone here is secretly running it for a very large customer base |
| 19:19.04 | tensai | ruby smells like poo. it won't scale. |
| 19:19.08 | obfuscated | I can check there as well |
| 19:19.08 | elg | you want an unbiased answer from people without the relevant experience. how interesting |
| 19:19.22 | elg | tensai: no, rubies smell like rocks |
| 19:19.24 | obfuscated | elg: I know some people here have relevant experience as well |
| 19:19.28 | *** join/#utah mrpull- (n=mrpull|@205.158.184.112) |
| 19:19.29 | macnewbold | I'm not biased, just ignorant to RoR's scalability |
| 19:19.56 | levi | tensai smells like rubies. |
| 19:20.01 | elg | that would be me, sjansen, vontrapp, and others. but like i said I don't know that any of us are doing anything large scale |
| 19:20.43 | elg | but large scale is always relevant isn't it? |
| 19:20.55 | obfuscated | elg: thx |
| 19:21.09 | elg | company Foo might think it's big and bad and requires enterprise grade software |
| 19:21.23 | elg | when in reality they simply require people to not be stupid and things will work fine. been there, done that |
| 19:21.32 | levi | obfuscated: I think a real answer would require a little more specific definition of 'very large'. |
| 19:22.05 | elg | I think rails will be fine for most definitions of very large, as in people who haven't seen the real very large |
| 19:22.20 | obfuscated | elg: I'm talking about the whole shebang - lots of visitors, lots of bandwidth, lots of processing. Worst-case-scenario. |
| 19:22.23 | elg | nasa uses ruby. space shuttles are large and the moon is far away! |
| 19:22.37 | elg | and I'm saying I doubt you really have that situation |
| 19:22.39 | obfuscated | aka how does it compare to other languages under the same load |
| 19:22.52 | TimRiker | can we drop the ruby off topic discussion? |
| 19:22.54 | elg | language has very little to do with it |
| 19:22.57 | obfuscated | elg: but I have to be prepared for the situation rather than painting myself in a corner |
| 19:22.58 | levi | obfuscated: Again, you need more specific definitions of load. |
| 19:23.14 | elg | the language speed is a constant factor |
| 19:23.41 | elg | what's off topic about ruby? what's on topic? |
| 19:23.52 | elg | since when is furby on topic but ruby isn't? |
| 19:23.56 | TimRiker | what embedded device are you running ruby on? |
| 19:24.23 | levi | TimRiker: Are you confusing this channel with something other than #utah? |
| 19:24.28 | obfuscated | TimRiker: I'm a Perl programmer - never have, never will change - just curious about Ruby |
| 19:24.37 | obfuscated | #utah has a topic? |
| 19:24.37 | elg | you probably just want ammo |
| 19:24.44 | TimRiker | eep. /me blushes. completely the wrong channel I thought I was in... |
| 19:24.48 | obfuscated | elg: nah - looking it up for a client |
| 19:24.52 | TimRiker | hello #utah. :) |
| 19:24.56 | elg | :) |
| 19:24.57 | obfuscated | sup TimRiker |
| 19:25.08 | elg | right, you want ammo to say perl is better |
| 19:25.09 | TimRiker | ~ww |
| 19:25.11 | ibot | Har har |
| 19:25.41 | TimRiker | k. ruby on.... |
| 19:25.56 | levi | obfuscated: Anyway, RoR will scale just fine for certain kinds of applications, and scale miserably for others. This is true for any platform, really. |
| 19:26.05 | levi | obfuscated: Your questions are too vague to give real answers to. |
| 19:26.23 | obfuscated | elg: nah - I'm not even recommending anything - they just asked how if it could scale to be very large |
| 19:26.39 | obfuscated | levi: which apps will it scale well for and which will it not? |
| 19:26.44 | TimRiker | seems RoR should scale about as far as other server side environments. I don't see any particular obstacles there that are unique to ruby. |
| 19:27.55 | levi | obfuscated: I don't have the answer to that; I'm telling you to rethink your questions. You need to do some up-front work before you can decide if Ruby is an acceptable solution for you. |
| 19:28.25 | TimRiker | similar issues with other platforms. as long as you keep the native binary version of the code around and share it between threads/connections you can scal quite a ways. |
| 19:28.38 | obfuscated | levi: sometimes I can't give too many details. I'm just trying to research. I am not looking for a specific answer, but a broad response |
| 19:28.48 | TimRiker | re interpreting the source is an issue, but that's what RoR is supposed to manage for you. |
| 19:29.00 | elg | obfuscated: broad response: it scales better than pelr |
| 19:29.04 | elg | s/pelr/perl/ |
| 19:29.10 | obfuscated | elg: based on? |
| 19:29.15 | levi | obfuscated: I'm aware of that. I'm saying that 'does it scale' is a stupid question. You need to ask about specific technologies that are necessary for your scaling strategy. |
| 19:29.17 | elg | based on whatever I want |
| 19:29.33 | elg | that's the nice thing about broad responses |
| 19:29.36 | obfuscated | levi: and I'm looking for what areas does it scale in? |
| 19:30.02 | TimRiker | fastcgi perl, mod_perl, etc scale pretty far. but from my limited experience, ruby seems a bit less memory hungry, so I expect it would scale a bit farther than perl. |
| 19:30.29 | obfuscated | TimRiker: good to know - thanks |
| 19:31.35 | TimRiker | I tried to talk larry wall into some more typing in perl. ie: if perl knows that a var is an int it should be able to avoid keeping the string version around all the time and re converting it all the time. |
| 19:32.12 | TimRiker | larry agreed, but thought it's better to keep things simpler and flexible than to worry to much about performance. |
| 19:32.22 | obfuscated | TimRiker: good points though |
| 19:32.23 | TimRiker | very telling attitude. |
| 19:33.00 | vontrapp | #turn into bool |
| 19:33.06 | vontrapp | return not not value |
| 19:33.20 | elg | to every thing... |
| 19:34.48 | sjansen | obfuscated: Most benchmarks so far have shown that Ruby is slower than the other scripting languages, which are generally slower than C and Java. |
| 19:35.05 | sjansen | But as you already know, sometimes that doesn't matter. Perl is fast enough. Ruby is fast enough. |
| 19:35.13 | findlay | because the've been longer in custom optimizations? |
| 19:35.18 | obfuscated | sjansen: yeah - that's kind of what I get |
| 19:35.37 | obfuscated | my biggest concern is how young RoR is |
| 19:35.42 | obfuscated | lack of experience |
| 19:35.47 | elg | findlay: partially. perhaps something to do with level of dyanmicness too. look for improvements in speed when they finish YARV |
| 19:36.15 | findlay | hmm |
| 19:36.26 | elg | YARV is a virtual machine they're working on |
| 19:36.38 | sjansen | The basic design philosophy of RoR is to avoid persistent objects. That makes it easier to throw more hardware at a problem without worrying about synchronization issues. |
| 19:36.38 | elg | and that's as much as I know about it |
| 19:36.58 | elg | ~vax sjansen |
| 19:37.08 | findlay | ~vex sjansen |
| 19:37.18 | sjansen | In other words, RoR takes an almost opposite to approach to scalability as compared to J2EE. An approach I, personally, consider more sane for all but a few uses. |
| 19:37.49 | obfuscated | sjansen: thx - that was very constructive |
| 19:40.06 | sjansen | One side effect of avoiding persistent objects is that the last update wins. Not a big deal when all you're doing is changing a username. The chance to two people trying to change the same accounts username at the same time is tiny. |
| 19:40.37 | sjansen | It's a bigger problem with you're dealing with the sale of limited inventory items and you don't want to see something if you don't have it in inventory. |
| 19:41.17 | sjansen | Which isn't to say you can't do that in RoR, you just have to be more careful. Chances are you're probably already used to dealing with things like transactions, etc. so it won't be too hard to learn. |
| 19:41.24 | elg | mmm, parallelization is delicious |
| 19:41.48 | elg | methinks you meant J2EE, to be consistent |
| 19:42.11 | obfuscated | sjansen: thx |
| 19:42.41 | sjansen | One of the things I love about RoR is that it acknowledge that not everything needs to be atomic, so it skips all the cruft and insanity of J2EE. And when you do need it, RoR generally does it in a more simple manner. |
| 19:44.08 | obfuscated | sjansen: you're starting to convert me dude - stop! ;-) |
| 19:44.21 | obfuscated | (jk - I like what you're saying) |
| 19:45.54 | findlay | what's parallelization? |
| 19:46.03 | findlay | and atomic? |
| 19:46.24 | findlay | atomic data? |
| 19:47.01 | elg | data with the potential to blow up the earth |
| 19:47.12 | sjansen | One thing to watch out for is that mod_ruby apparently isn't very good. RoR prefers to use FastCGI and run as its own process. |
| 19:47.16 | levi | paralleization - taking a sequential algorithm and separating out the parts that are independant, so they can be performed simultaneously, i.e. in parallel. |
| 19:47.32 | sjansen | That leads to two problems, one is that it doesn't give you the same level of power as mod_perl. |
| 19:47.48 | levi | atomic - the changes all happen at once; if any part succeeds, it all succeeds. If any part fails, it all fails. |
| 19:48.05 | sjansen | The other problem is that the Apache 2 implementation of FastCGI apparently isn't very good. As a result, lighttpd is much more popular in the RoR community. |
| 19:48.55 | findlay | what if one part succeeds and one part fails? |
| 19:49.02 | findlay | is that a quantum duality state? |
| 19:49.16 | sjansen | So a common architecture is lighttd as the front-end server providing static and cached content itself then using FastCGI to talk to RoR for dynamic content. |
| 19:49.17 | findlay | be careful or you'll collapse the wave equation! |
| 19:49.23 | tensai | findlay: then you roll back the part that did |
| 19:49.30 | findlay | no wonder it's atomic |
| 19:49.30 | levi | findlay: The change set is encoded in a transaction, and the changes that succeeded are backed out when one fails. |
| 19:49.39 | sjansen | The upswing is that lighttpd is much more lightweight, and much faster than apache. |
| 19:51.57 | findlay | I see |
| 19:52.16 | levi | findlay: This has been an important part of database systems for many years now. |
| 19:52.38 | tensai | ~acid |
| 19:52.40 | ibot | "It's so easy to get acid. You can get it anywhere.", or the analysis console for intrusion databases, a php based engine to search snort logs, available at http://acidlab.sourceforge.net/ |
| 19:52.41 | brac | [Analysis Console for Intrusion Databases (ACID)] |
| 19:52.52 | tensai | no, not that one |
| 19:53.18 | tensai | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACID |
| 19:53.49 | tensai | Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, and Durability |
| 19:56.26 | sjansen | Acid: The drug that convinced Monty databases don't need to be ACID. |
| 19:58.26 | sjansen | ibot: acis is also <reply> Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, and Durability - basic characteristics of a real database |
| 19:58.28 | ibot | sjansen: okay |
| 19:58.31 | sjansen | ~acid |
| 19:58.32 | ibot | "It's so easy to get acid. You can get it anywhere.", or the analysis console for intrusion databases, a php based engine to search snort logs, available at http://acidlab.sourceforge.net/ |
| 19:58.34 | brac | [Analysis Console for Intrusion Databases (ACID)] |
| 19:58.47 | sjansen | stupid bot |
| 19:58.56 | levi | sjansen: It helps if you don't typo. |
| 19:59.07 | levi | sjansen: You gave ibot a definition for acis |
| 19:59.20 | sjansen | ~beat levi |
| 19:59.21 | ibot | ACTION beats levi with a wetfish |
| 20:00.35 | elg | ~acis |
| 20:00.36 | ibot | Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, and Durability - basic characteristics of a real database |
| 20:01.46 | findlay | and surreptiliousness |
| 20:05.09 | findlay | s/l/t/ |
| 20:07.16 | macnewbold | ~jargon acid |
| 20:09.44 | bonez39 | macnewbold, howdy! |
| 20:10.05 | macnewbold | howdy, bonez! |
| 20:10.09 | macnewbold | how are things? |
| 20:10.29 | bonez39 | pretty good.....it'd be heaven if I never had any paperwork though...that's the bane of any business |
| 20:11.01 | tensai | OOo 2.0 is ugly |
| 20:11.26 | bonez39 | tensai, ugly? it's much better than 1.x though, eh? |
| 20:12.06 | tensai | I'm just complaining about the button skin. hideous. 1.x was plain jane. |
| 20:12.38 | findlay | ugly buttons? You haven't seen finale(R) have you? |
| 20:13.11 | findlay | those buttons looked like somebody puked simmilar sized chunks and arranged them in a line on the screen |
| 20:13.25 | findlay | and then they have to come out with a new version every year |
| 20:13.48 | findlay | and charge hundred$$$ for it |
| 20:17.03 | bonez39 | Finale? what is finale? |
| 20:17.39 | findlay | a disgusting proprietary music typesetting program |
| 20:17.52 | ^Migs^ | imo, it's overbloated |
| 20:18.05 | elg | that does a terrible job, but somehow manages to be the only kid on the block |
| 20:18.08 | ^Migs^ | but still it's probably the best |
| 20:18.11 | ^Migs^ | heh |
| 20:18.15 | findlay | there's sibelius |
| 20:18.24 | elg | i don't know if that's because it's a niche market, or if it's because musicians are computerphobes and don't want to learn anything else |
| 20:18.25 | ^Migs^ | yeah, and Noteworthy Composer |
| 20:18.29 | findlay | I've rarely used it though |
| 20:18.29 | ^Migs^ | I used an old program called Rhapsody |
| 20:18.39 | elg | i honestly don't know the market for finale competitors in windows |
| 20:18.41 | ^Migs^ | I still have to convert them over to Finale. I never bothered learning much of Finale |
| 20:18.57 | elg | I use lilypond, which is hardly a finale competitor. that's like calling latex a word competitor |
| 20:19.02 | ^Migs^ | I dunno. Maybe once you get to know it, Finale is great. |
| 20:19.03 | findlay | I'll still take lilypond any day |
| 20:19.38 | findlay | maybe they could lyX-ify lilypond |
| 20:19.51 | ^Migs^ | it just seems like they try to do too much more than typesetting, like actual sound mixing, when there's a plethora of programs that do a better job |
| 20:20.09 | findlay | music is so much easier to type out than to codify with another language |
| 20:20.14 | elg | there are a couple of frontends |
| 20:20.22 | elg | denemo I think is one |
| 20:20.27 | findlay | ^Migs^: yeah |
| 20:20.30 | elg | rosegarden can output lilypond now |
| 20:22.08 | findlay | finale is like those adobe apps that started out being ultra user friendly for users in their niche markets and gradually became "industry standard" though I couldn't imagine any professional typesetter using finale for serious work |
| 20:22.45 | ^Migs^ | I think a lot of them do actually, findlay |
| 20:23.23 | findlay | it seems it wants to be the all in one solution for composers or anyone with a hobby penchant for writing/arranging music |
| 20:24.07 | findlay | well, if it was as usable as it was when I last worked with it, then they're slaving their lives away |
| 20:25.01 | findlay | not to say that traditional engraving is any easier (: |
| 20:27.40 | elg | finale isn't the poster child for usability, but once you learn the interface it's usable |
| 20:27.51 | elg | it just produces ugly output and costs way too much |
| 20:27.57 | findlay | maybe I hate finale so much because they insist on having their help in PDF format. I could never get over how stupid that was |
| 20:28.50 | elg | how is that stupid? |
| 20:29.20 | findlay | not only in PDF, but two-columned PDFs. If you're going to insist on PDF documentation that is intended for reading on screen, then why two columns. Why, oh why?! |
| 20:29.42 | macnewbold | columns that are too wide are hard for the eye to follow |
| 20:30.10 | findlay | elg: because that means reading it with acrobat reader, which is a slow, bloated app, hard to search, and has the basic philosophy that documents are meant to be printed |
| 20:30.14 | elg | but when columns extend past the vertical space on the screen, that's more of a pain |
| 20:30.25 | elg | there's nothing wrong with docs in pdf, so long as it's formatted for screen reading |
| 20:30.31 | findlay | yes, exactly |
| 20:30.53 | flyboy^ | Why hasn't someone come up with a killer app to kill the PDFs? |
| 20:30.57 | findlay | mainly it's because acrobat doesn't work too well for screen reading |
| 20:31.07 | elg | preview (the os x pdf reader) is lightweight, easy to search, and works well on screen with screen-shaped pdfs |
| 20:31.14 | flyboy^ | I love the idea of an 'acrobat' trying to read a document. |
| 20:31.25 | flyboy^ | What sort of imagry does that give you? |
| 20:31.50 | elg | ~trip flyboy^ |
| 20:32.38 | findlay | elg: I guess I just prefer HTML because it's so much easier to format. PDFs are inextricably bound to a page size that invariably to make the text readable you have to enlarge the PDF viewer window to 80% of the screen |
| 20:33.06 | findlay | that's just way too bulky |
| 20:33.29 | flyboy^ | But with HTML the reader decides how the document looks. With PDF the creator decides. |
| 20:33.30 | findlay | and then to have to manage that all with a DE that doesn't even know about virtual desktops |
| 20:34.10 | findlay | exactly. If you're after plain old documentation, why should the layout matter more than the information? |
| 20:34.43 | flyboy^ | It doesn't probably. But that's why tech comanies love the PDF - because they can make pretty layouts and force you to see the data in a specific way. |
| 20:34.58 | findlay | that bugs me to no end |
| 20:35.04 | flyboy^ | I'm not saying I like it, I'm just saying that's the way it seems to me. |
| 20:35.16 | findlay | not as much now that I don't have to deal with adobe stone-age reader |
| 20:35.47 | flyboy^ | I think it's like flash - which forces you to view content in a certain way as well. |
| 20:36.08 | flyboy^ | Heaven forbid we replace the PDF with flash. ;) |
| 20:36.35 | findlay | PDF still seems to be a regressive sort of technology. Ultimately PDF documents are meant to be printed |
| 20:36.39 | findlay | or at least I thought |
| 20:36.52 | flyboy^ | I agree that it does seem that way. |
| 20:36.55 | findlay | and adobe bought macromedia after all |
| 20:38.07 | flyboy^ | I think an interesting way would be for the reader to say "I'd like the info in one of these xyz ways, you decide which one is best for your data." |
| 20:38.18 | tensai | want to enjoy some pain, try using Flash Paper(tm) |
| 20:38.38 | tensai | I sure hope Adobe kills that one. what a load of crap. |
| 20:38.42 | flyboy^ | Like - you give the website YOUR version of 3 or 4 CSSs YOU like. Then the server picks one of those 4 that most closly matches what the creator had in mind. |
| 20:38.46 | ^Migs^ | I doubt people are ever going to stop printing stuff |
| 20:39.14 | tensai | flyboy^: you know that's possible, right? |
| 20:39.29 | findlay | ^Migs^: I agree, but PDF is still a poor medium for online documentaion |
| 20:39.37 | flyboy^ | tensai: With mixed results I'd guess. |
| 20:40.01 | ^Migs^ | oh, online documentation sure, but we weren't exactly talking about that. The strength of PDF is its versatility of application. |
| 20:40.03 | ^Migs^ | ANYONE can use it |
| 20:40.12 | tensai | flyboy^: the CSS part works anyway. depends on how well the site is done up. stylesheet tags can specify that they're an alternate. |
| 20:40.14 | flyboy^ | I think that was supposed to be the whole XML/XSLT thing... who knows. |
| 20:40.24 | ^Migs^ | most informed people seem to be staying away from using PDFs for documentation |
| 20:40.37 | sjansen | ^Migs^: Based on what? |
| 20:40.47 | sjansen | And what type of documentation. |
| 20:40.49 | sjansen | ? |
| 20:41.03 | flyboy^ | Acutally, I see the opposite where more PDFs are popping up every day. |
| 20:41.04 | findlay | ^Migs^: Anyone can also use HTML |
| 20:41.07 | ^Migs^ | based on what I've noticed. ANy form of technical documentation |
| 20:41.19 | ^Migs^ | this is just MY own personal opinion |
| 20:41.41 | ^Migs^ | I don't mind PDFs. When I need to print off something, it works much better than HTML |
| 20:41.41 | flyboy^ | People are counting on you printing things out. |
| 20:42.01 | flyboy^ | But for 500 pages of data - sorry - I'm not doign to do that. |
| 20:42.07 | ^Migs^ | HTML, I have the risk of it not printing out how I expect |
| 20:42.18 | *** part/#utah tensai (n=tensai@joanna.zmonkey.org) |
| 20:42.22 | *** join/#utah tensai (n=tensai@joanna.zmonkey.org) |
| 20:42.28 | tensai | ~lart ctrl-w |
| 20:42.32 | ^Migs^ | no, in that case, they probably expect you to refer to it as an edoc, in which case it's better suited in HTML |
| 20:42.37 | flyboy^ | Again, isn't XML supposed to be kind of the middle ground. Here is a way, but you can change it if you really want.? |
| 20:42.40 | ^Migs^ | or some other form. Even a CHM. |
| 20:42.45 | tensai | so, as I was saying about flash paper. http://www.tcgardens.com/checklists/swf/may.swf |
| 20:42.55 | findlay | still I've suffered heavily at the torturous usability and rigitdy of finale's infamous PDF documentaion |
| 20:43.13 | findlay | it's permanently scarred my childhood |
| 20:46.17 | phinux | Hmm. Already don't like flash paper. But thanks for the gardening guide. |
| 20:46.30 | findlay | -urls 1 |
| 20:46.30 | brac | [2006/05/11 14:42:47] <tensai> http://www.tcgardens.com/checklists/swf/may.swf |
| 20:46.51 | tensai | the gardening guides they have are awesome. best to go to the shop in person and get a hard copy. |
| 20:47.08 | tensai | they *used* to have pdfs, but must have switched to this flash cruft |
| 20:47.25 | phinux | Can't middle click to open a link in a new tab. |
| 20:47.27 | findlay | why not download and print them off the hp deskjet? (-: |
| 20:50.40 | findlay | I'm guessing that gnash won't handle it too well |
| 20:51.40 | findlay | gnash has crashed my X session too many times to be a permanent source of felicity at all the flash ads that it accidentally manages to play |
| 20:52.59 | findlay | those are the vicissitudes of running a pure 64 bit linux system, I guess |
| 21:02.06 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 21:02.30 | findlay | ~poke nick125 |
| 21:02.31 | ibot | ACTION grabs a syringe |
| 21:02.40 | findlay | ibot: whatever |
| 21:02.42 | ibot | whatever is, like, an expression of confusionambivalence, or something else |
| 21:02.51 | nick125 | .wu3' |
| 21:02.52 | nick125 | err |
| 21:03.57 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 21:05.00 | *** join/#utah redman1 (n=redman1@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 21:06.12 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 21:12.07 | bonez39 | I sent a print job to a networked printer...which is connected to a machine which was OFF...the print dialogue said it would retain the print job in the local queue..how do I bump it to print, now that the other machine is now ON? |
| 21:15.15 | tensai | findlay: I tried printing them and they look like junk. there are no option when you click "print", flash just does what it wants. |
| 21:24.43 | findlay | is it bad to install postgresql on a machine that already has mysql running? |
| 21:25.01 | findlay | I mean to run postgres and mysql simultaneously? |
| 21:25.19 | nick125 | nope, I do it all the time |
| 21:25.34 | nick125 | they run on different ports |
| 21:26.11 | findlay | all right then, if this screws up stuff then I'm blaming you, nick125 (: |
| 21:26.21 | nick125 | lol |
| 21:30.11 | *** join/#utah atoponce (n=atoponce@216.20.234.60) |
| 21:33.42 | *** join/#utah fungus_ (n=fungus@fungus.air.aros.net) |
| 21:38.30 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:51.31 | *** join/#utah SB1-Work (n=SB1@64.122.30.6) |
| 21:52.00 | tensai | ~lart SB1-Work for misspelling tenasi |
| 21:52.13 | SB1-Work | lol, I'm blind |
| 21:52.15 | SB1-Work | Not that I blame you |
| 21:52.28 | SB1-Work | Well, I've got a sangoma card in this box now |
| 21:53.28 | SB1-Work | Wondering things about what protocol I should pass over this |
| 21:54.06 | tensai | things like esf, ami, robbed bit? |
| 21:54.14 | SB1-Work | like frame relay or PPP |
| 21:55.10 | findlay | what would cause postgresql not to start? |
| 21:55.16 | tensai | findlay: bad file permissions |
| 21:55.23 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:55.24 | findlay | what perms do you want? |
| 21:55.37 | tensai | chmod -R 777 / |
| 21:56.28 | findlay | I'm feeling a little unwilling to do that |
| 21:59.10 | findlay | is there a way to make redhat's init scripts more verbose? |
| 22:03.31 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 22:04.24 | SB1-Work | okay, a little help with PPP setup here (I've never messed with PPP) |
| 22:04.49 | SB1-Work | On this side, I have the sangoma card configured as PPP, local IP as 10.255.255.1, P-to-P IP as 10.255.255.2 |
| 22:05.03 | SB1-Work | On the remote side, should I flip the IPs and call it good? |
| 22:05.56 | SB1-Work | local IP as 10.255.255.2 and P-to-P IP as 10.255.255.1? |
| 22:07.04 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:09.13 | findlay | duh, happened to be something dumb I did |
| 22:09.25 | findlay | thanks for the help tensai |
| 22:09.28 | findlay | I guess |
| 22:09.49 | tensai | SB1-Work: yes |
| 22:09.57 | tensai | findlay: sure. what was it? |
| 22:10.51 | findlay | I got ahead of myself and copied the conf file to the postgres dir before starting the initscript |
| 22:10.56 | SB1-Work | tensai, thanks |
| 22:11.12 | findlay | so it expected a bunch of other files |
| 22:12.01 | tensai | SB1-Work: we're using ppp as well. all you need is a /30 (two addresses). |
| 22:24.44 | findlay | ~lart cpanel |
| 22:25.50 | nick125 | cpanel sucks! |
| 22:25.51 | nick125 | :D |
| 22:26.14 | nick125 | findlay: why are you using cpanel anyways? |
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| 22:28.11 | *** part/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:30.44 | mheath | yeah, you can call me back tomorrow! |
| 22:31.07 | mheath | thanks for not returning my calls or e-mails, on something I need to get resolved immediately. |
| 22:32.34 | tensai | anybody noticing strange DNS issues today? |
| 22:33.08 | nick125 | mheath: whos that from? |
| 22:34.02 | nick125 | I love it when my DSL line is down and my ISP tells me that -_- |
| 22:35.41 | herlo | tensai: yeah, I've been seeing them all day, its like one minute its there, the next gone |
| 22:36.02 | herlo | ~lart DNS |
| 22:36.14 | tensai | we had 4 dns servers it 2 completely different locations go down all at the same time |
| 22:36.19 | herlo | good thing DNS propgates quickly |
| 22:36.27 | tensai | and I just heard from a customer that their DNS server died at the same time |
| 22:36.28 | herlo | wow |
| 22:36.31 | tensai | something fishy is going on |
| 22:36.43 | tensai | good thing I've got IP addresses memorized |
| 22:36.59 | herlo | fishy is right. Scooby, you and Shaggy go down that very scary hall there.... |
| 22:38.28 | flyboy^ | There is something very strange about that show. |
| 22:38.38 | flyboy^ | very, very... strange. |
| 22:39.34 | mrpull- | i suspect scooby's creators liked mind altering substances |
| 22:40.07 | flyboy^ | And, ahem, girls. |
| 22:40.08 | herlo | and Velma, you take the middle corridor |
| 22:40.31 | herlo | Daphne and I will go down into the dungeon to see what ew can find |
| 22:40.31 | flyboy^ | The Mystery Machine |
| 22:40.37 | herlo | ooh, yeah |
| 22:41.04 | flyboy^ | It's a mystery to me why the need such a pimped out van with a guy that wears a fluffy scarff driving it. |
| 22:42.14 | herlo | the fluffy scarf is called and ascot and that was fred driving |
| 22:42.23 | herlo | scary that I know that, but I do |
| 22:42.33 | herlo | I have a 6yo son, yeah, that's why... |
| 22:43.55 | flyboy^ | An ascot, what kinda name is that? And why is Fred wearing one? |
| 22:44.15 | herlo | dunno, but he is |
| 22:44.17 | flyboy^ | It's a mystery only peering inside the mystery machine can answer. |
| 22:45.36 | herlo | http://www.everwonder.com/david/scooby/fred.gif |
| 22:46.21 | herlo | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_%22Freddie%22_Jones |
| 22:47.13 | herlo | flyboy^: kinda sad huh |
| 22:47.14 | herlo | ? |
| 22:52.10 | flyboy^ | No comment. |
| 22:57.20 | *** join/#utah brando1 (n=brandon@blurry.skewedvision.com) |
| 23:12.46 | macnewbold | fred jones and his ascot were just the politically correct precursors to the whole "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" phenomenon |
| 23:19.06 | *** join/#utah JoeyDay|wgu (n=JoeyDay@66.133.117.158) |
| 23:20.53 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@gateway.publicvpn.net) |
| 23:23.53 | flyboy^ | On threes company the landlord guy wore one to come off as a swinger. Which was a joke since he wasn't. What's that guys name? Don Knotts character? |
| 23:29.50 | linuxalien | Furly? |
| 23:37.19 | tensai | Mr Roper |
| 23:41.01 | tensai | ok, Don Knotts was Ralph Furley. He was the second landlord. the first was Stanley Roper. |
| 23:41.06 | tensai | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three%27s_Company |
| 23:44.29 | linuxalien | :) |
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