| 00:03.33 | elg | any osx users using wpa here? |
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| 02:35.40 | QBFreak | heh, I saw that MS had Virtual Server 1005 available free for download, and I was trying to register and it wouldn't work...suddenly it dawned on me that I'm running FC5 not Windows XP at the moment :) |
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| 03:11.51 | maquis | -lart Newsome |
| 03:11.55 | Newsome | hey! |
| 03:11.56 | maquis | Newsome: how's chicago? |
| 03:12.06 | Newsome | great! |
| 03:12.27 | maquis | fun! |
| 03:12.51 | Newsome | anything happening around here? |
| 03:13.06 | maquis | in utah? or in #utah? |
| 03:13.20 | Newsome | either one |
| 03:13.28 | maquis | probably not too much |
| 03:13.40 | ^Migs^ | or maybe there's a whole lot going on and we're just oblivious |
| 03:13.45 | maquis | true |
| 03:14.34 | Newsome | amcnabb or spr: you around? |
| 03:16.54 | amcnabb | I'm here. |
| 03:17.01 | amcnabb | What's up? |
| 03:17.59 | Newsome | I have some scrap copper to donate to the pizza fund |
| 03:18.24 | maquis | there's a pizza fund? |
| 03:18.58 | Newsome | yeah. You should bribe the system programmers more. |
| 03:19.13 | amcnabb | :) |
| 03:19.22 | amcnabb | How does scrap copper get from IL to UT? |
| 03:19.34 | maquis | well... we've been trying to bribe spr with pizza for mailman setup... |
| 03:20.07 | Newsome | well, my sister in Provo has the copper, and she can bring it by |
| 03:20.24 | amcnabb | cool |
| 03:20.29 | amcnabb | How much? |
| 03:21.15 | Newsome | the leftovers from when I replaced my water main. I'm not really sure exactly how much |
| 03:21.27 | Newsome | I figure it's probably worth something to you guys, though |
| 03:25.30 | Newsome | so, I'm apparently irreplacable? |
| 03:26.21 | maquis | of course :) |
| 03:31.33 | amcnabb | So, how's your new job going? |
| 03:31.52 | goozbach | boo! |
| 03:31.57 | maquis | boo! |
| 03:32.37 | Newsome | It's good. My manager is much easier to work with/for |
| 03:33.17 | amcnabb | :) |
| 03:34.08 | Newsome | it's interesting working on teams with people all over the world |
| 03:36.24 | emcnabb | Newsome: it looks like spr ran away from you |
| 03:36.24 | Newsome | I've got conference calls most mornings with other people on the engineering team, and many of them are in London. |
| 03:36.34 | Newsome | yeah, I have that effect on people |
| 03:36.37 | emcnabb | :-) |
| 03:36.44 | emcnabb | I'm going to Chicago next week |
| 03:36.51 | Newsome | sweet. what for? |
| 03:37.24 | Newsome | we've got a couple Red Hat employees permanently assigned to us |
| 03:37.58 | emcnabb | I think it's in Downers Grove; just teaching a class |
| 03:38.39 | Newsome | ah, okay. I'll fly past you on the train |
| 03:39.12 | emcnabb | haha |
| 03:41.19 | Newsome | Usually, there aren't any problems, but a couple weeks ago, I was greeted by this on my way to work - http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/21metra.html |
| 03:41.20 | brac | [Aurora man killed by Metra train] |
| 03:41.26 | emcnabb | Newsome: so have they been keeping you busy? |
| 03:42.05 | Newsome | yes, I've been busy. Recently, I've been evaluating some new IBM and HP blade servers |
| 03:42.49 | amcnabb | That sounds fun. |
| 03:43.22 | Newsome | yeah. blades are way cool |
| 03:43.27 | amcnabb | Let me know if you need any help evaluating them--I could use one in my apartment. :) |
| 03:43.39 | Newsome | haha |
| 03:45.30 | Newsome | we've got some pre-General Availability IBM Management Modules that are pretty sweet kit |
| 03:46.02 | Newsome | have you got a BladeCenter chassis there in your apartment? :) |
| 03:46.28 | emcnabb | Newsome: don't tempt them... |
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| 03:47.53 | Newsome | the BladeCenter H holds 14 blades - http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/bladecenter/bladeh/ |
| 03:47.54 | brac | [IBM BladeCenter H Chassis] |
| 03:50.08 | amcnabb | Wow. |
| 03:51.19 | Newsome | built-in power control and KVM over IP. Built-in firmware upgrade capability, etc... |
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| 04:09.09 | spr | ~praise viemu |
| 04:09.11 | ibot | All hail viemu! |
| 04:09.27 | spr | Finally, I don't feel like I'm in hell with VS |
| 04:10.20 | jsmith | Amen... now stop using VS :-) |
| 04:10.37 | spr | This class is forcing me to. |
| 04:11.57 | amcnabb | Stallman says that VI-VI-VI is the editor of the devil. |
| 04:12.05 | amcnabb | And VS is the IDE of the beast |
| 04:12.14 | amcnabb | s/editor of the devil/editor of the beast/ |
| 04:13.04 | xbmodder_lappy | all hail nano! |
| 04:13.09 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 04:13.27 | spr | So does that mean that cs 312 was crafted by the beast? |
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| 04:13.40 | amcnabb | It's very possible. |
| 04:13.54 | elg | 312 requires VS? isn't that algorithms? |
| 04:14.09 | elg | why must they be so braindead? what does VS have to do with algorithms? |
| 04:15.04 | jsmith | elg: The ability to easily set breakpoints when you're debugging them, maybe? |
| 04:15.34 | elg | I can do that in gdb. there's other ides (eclipse perhaps) that can do that just as well or better also |
| 04:15.35 | spr | elg, they want us to learn C# and learn the environment. |
| 04:15.45 | jsmith | s/on/one/ |
| 04:15.47 | elg | spr: of course, but that has NOTHING to do with algorithms |
| 04:15.49 | elg | it's braindead |
| 04:16.00 | elg | if you want to teach C#/VS, have a C#/vs class |
| 04:16.09 | elg | 312 wasn't like that when I took it, but 345 was. |
| 04:16.19 | spr | Yeah but the department is deathly afraid of adding a class I think. |
| 04:16.44 | elg | they're mostly anti-"trade class" |
| 04:17.01 | elg | but then they realize they want people to learn tools, so they fold it into existing classes |
| 04:17.05 | elg | diluting the real education |
| 04:17.49 | spr | Yeah, it's thrilling when it is the first semester doing pure C# in the class. First project had 4 overhauls. |
| 04:17.55 | jsmith | elg: Wow... that's a lot of assumptions there :-) |
| 04:18.07 | elg | I've been there, I know. :) |
| 04:18.18 | jsmith | elg: Are you sure you're suggesting that there's a real education to be found in those classes? |
| 04:18.35 | elg | I also know that at the university I'm attending, in the classes where we have undergraduates, said undergraduates all know how to use gdb and program in windows and unix environments both |
| 04:18.51 | elg | hehe. actually yes, I found the 312 class particularly invigorating |
| 04:19.09 | elg | it was really hard to get a good grade from that professor, and it was a bit frustrating |
| 04:19.12 | elg | but I learned a lot |
| 04:21.25 | levi | UVSC makes you learn one of Java, VB, or C# and also C++ in classes dedicated to them. |
| 04:23.10 | levi | Which, considering the level UVSC is aiming at, seems like a good idea to me, rather than trying to work teaching the languages into other classes about CS subjects. |
| 04:23.23 | elg | my opinion is pretty strong - the value in a CS degree vs. some crash-course trade school is the theory and mathematical thinking. Diluting core theory classes like 312 is a real shame. |
| 04:23.33 | levi | I agree. |
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| 04:24.41 | elg | -weather kpvu |
| 04:24.42 | brac | 30 minutes ago, on Wed Apr 05 03:55:00 UTC 2006, the wind was blowing at a speed of 7.20 meters per second (16.11 miles per hour) from the Southeast at KPVU. The temperature was 16 degrees Celsius (61 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1007 hPa (29.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 38.9%. There were scattered clouds at a height of 3658 meters (12000 feet). |
| 04:24.51 | elg | -weather klru |
| 04:24.53 | brac | 13 minutes ago, on Wed Apr 05 04:12:00 UTC 2006, the wind was blowing at a speed of 2.06 meters per second (4.60 miles per hour) from the West/Northwest at KLRU. The temperature was 20 degrees Celsius (68 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1017 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 14.3%. There were scattered clouds at a height of 3353 meters (11000 feet). |
| 04:25.04 | levi | I think I took that one. And when I did, it was in C and you had competition to see who could write the fastest solutions. |
| 04:25.40 | elg | yup. we didn't have the speed competition, exactly. something like you had to be in the top 1/2 to get full credit or something. but the same teacher |
| 04:25.47 | levi | I don't really think that's the right approach. |
| 04:25.50 | bonez39 | does anyone have a favorite music resource? I had used gnutella....gtk-gnutella, but it doesn't seem to work any more |
| 04:26.24 | ScytheBlade1 | bonez39, define 'resource' |
| 04:26.34 | elg | no, it's about as useful as VS. :-) It should focus more on the order of things than the C tricks |
| 04:26.41 | elg | but at least we were learning generic C tricks |
| 04:27.09 | levi | Writing algorithms isn't about code bumming to get the fastest code. Of course, having the right algorithm is a prerequisite to having a fast program, but clarity should come before speed. |
| 04:27.26 | elg | yup |
| 04:27.50 | elg | What I did find valuable about that class was that you had to write it up |
| 04:27.56 | levi | The test of your program should be something that shows that it scales properly as the input size increases. |
| 04:28.06 | elg | they do that a lot here too, write a report about it, code printouts the profs actually review... |
| 04:28.06 | bonez39 | ScytheBlade1, well, let's say I can't find a song I want..something ancient..so I would run gtk-gnutella..and find the song that way..... |
| 04:28.10 | bonez39 | like napster..... |
| 04:28.20 | levi | Yeah, writeups are a good idea. |
| 04:28.24 | ScytheBlade1 | I've got access to OiNK but that's about it |
| 04:28.32 | bonez39 | ScytheBlade1, but I fear that the AG and his gang are trying to shut down all the song swapping sites...... |
| 04:28.50 | ScytheBlade1 | What in question are you looking for? |
| 04:28.51 | elg | levi: exactly. in my parallel processing class we report on scaling and how the speedup gains are at various number of processors |
| 04:29.24 | levi | elg: Man, I wish I was in your classes instead of mine. |
| 04:29.41 | levi | My ethics class tonight was an abortion debate. |
| 04:29.47 | xbmodder_lappy | fun |
| 04:30.05 | elg | levi: come on down, the weather is great. until next month that is |
| 04:30.07 | levi | The class is much less interesting now that we've moved beyond the philosophers and into application. ;) |
| 04:30.35 | levi | elg: Here, we're still fighting to get out of winter. I don't think I want to entirely skip spring. :) |
| 04:30.53 | elg | ah. well then come down in fall. summer to more summer isn't that bad |
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| 13:05.00 | elg | -lart tensai |
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| 14:00.46 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 14:23.38 | tensai | ~lart elg |
| 14:51.49 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 14:52.15 | sjansen | ~rlart |
| 14:52.45 | tensai | how to ruin twenty mangos? that's such a waste! |
| 14:53.40 | jsmith | Thanks, sjansen |
| 14:55.24 | sjansen | jsmith: any time |
| 14:59.52 | sjansen | http://swissmiss.typepad.com/weblog/2006/03/scherenbett.html <-- Wish I'd know about that about half a decade ago... 'course I probably couldn't have afforded 'em anyway. |
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| 15:07.24 | sjansen | man, as I was motivated to go straight to work this morning |
| 15:07.46 | sjansen | then I remembered what I need to do today, and suddenly Slashdot's sounding a whole lot more fun |
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| 15:15.27 | goozbach | what you doing today sjansen ? |
| 15:16.21 | goozbach | I'm thinking about where to go for lunch |
| 15:17.28 | sjansen | hopefully I'm adding conditonal support to xiphias |
| 15:17.51 | sjansen | that, or spending about 8 hours trolling the Web while trying to look productive |
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| 15:19.28 | goozbach | hah! |
| 15:19.37 | goozbach | have fun |
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| 15:44.03 | sjansen | ~ping gthornock |
| 15:44.05 | ibot | pong gthornock |
| 15:44.17 | sjansen | I win! |
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| 15:45.21 | gthornock | sjansen: ? |
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| 15:46.35 | sjansen | gthornock: just poking you because you haven't given Ut OSS Planet a head shot yet |
| 15:46.50 | gthornock | Oh, that's right. I need to find one. |
| 15:48.25 | findlay | you guys and your Planet |
| 15:49.48 | tensai | ~google findlay's head on a pike |
| 15:50.53 | findlay | ~lart Planet |
| 15:51.02 | findlay | ha |
| 15:54.58 | Jayce^ | gthornock, you know it's required... it starts with reminders, but before long, sjansen will begin the larting.. |
| 15:54.58 | sjansen | further proof that ibot is really TimRiker's psuedonymn |
| 15:55.35 | sjansen | Jayce^: Speaking of which, next time you see Joe, slap him and tell him to submit a hackergotchi. |
| 15:56.11 | Jayce^ | sjansen, yeah, I bug him about it everyday, he took a shot, and hated it, was going to try again |
| 15:56.17 | elg | or we'll submit one for him |
| 15:56.17 | elg | http://www.talklikeapirate.com/graphics/contest/RedBeard-on-Beachs.jpg |
| 15:56.34 | elg | or perhaps http://www.sp3ccylad.com/redbeard-gorilla.jpg |
| 15:57.11 | tensai | Jayce^: you don't have a picture of your brother? perhaps something embarassing... |
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| 15:57.26 | Jayce^ | elg, he loves it, he wants the second one |
| 15:57.38 | Jayce^ | tensai, my 'brother'..... um yeah, long joke there |
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| 15:57.54 | Jayce^ | you don't know how many coworkers (each time we've worked together) have asked that |
| 15:58.01 | tensai | Jayce^: did I miss something? |
| 15:58.26 | Jayce^ | tensai, joe isn't my brother... actually you and I are probably more closely related than we are |
| 15:59.45 | tensai | Jayce^: heh. so no Hall clan to join in the epic battle against the houses of Mcnabb and Fugal? |
| 15:59.56 | Jayce^ | tensai, we do a good job of faking it :) |
| 16:00.07 | Jayce^ | my brother is an ex programmer turned designer dork.. :) |
| 16:00.26 | emcnabb | McNabb domination! |
| 16:00.46 | tensai | Jayce^: could have swore I heard mention of him in a family relation. ah well. |
| 16:01.04 | Jayce^ | tensai, we often joke about being brothers.. |
| 16:01.28 | Jayce^ | our cubes are next to each other, so we have the nameplates right there... |
| 16:02.43 | tensai | is it 4:40 or did the battery in my clock die? |
| 16:03.29 | sjansen | tensai: hard to say, wait an hour and check again |
| 16:04.25 | sjansen | I personally choose to believe that it is 4:40pm and that I'll be leaving work in 20 minutes. |
| 16:06.07 | sjansen | *sigh* |
| 16:06.25 | sjansen | There really is no way I can code this cleaning and be done by today. :-( |
| 16:06.45 | sjansen | I sure hope this doesn't come back to bite me... |
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| 16:13.10 | findlay | ~mode -e sjansen |
| 16:13.12 | goozbach | t- 3 months |
| 16:13.48 | goozbach | "I wish I'd have coded this cleaner" -- sjansen |
| 16:14.50 | goozbach | they sell catfish at the KFC down here |
| 16:15.11 | jsmith | Catfish at KFC? It's Kentucky Fried Catfish? That explains a lot... |
| 16:15.46 | jsmith | Next you know they'll start serving black-eyed peas and cabbage in a combo meal... |
| 16:16.37 | goozbach | I should ask for thse as my sides |
| 16:17.14 | atoponce | would the black-eyed peas and cabbge meal be called "my humps"? ;) |
| 16:17.35 | jsmith | atoponce: No, it's just a traditional New Years meal in the South. |
| 16:17.55 | jsmith | goozbach: So, is the catfish fried or grilled? Blackened? |
| 16:18.16 | atoponce | i was joking about the band and their stupid song. |
| 16:18.20 | goozbach | speaking of collard greens |
| 16:18.23 | goozbach | ... |
| 16:19.14 | goozbach | I went to FHE with challie's family monday |
| 16:19.34 | goozbach | we ate on tv trays |
| 16:19.44 | goozbach | on the sofa |
| 16:19.59 | goozbach | and had collard greens |
| 16:20.27 | jsmith | goozbach: Welcome to the South! |
| 16:20.35 | goozbach | the TV trays had their own little holder and everything |
| 16:22.44 | goozbach | I highly expect that KFC puts crack in their coleslaw |
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| 16:24.23 | goozbach | college towns++ |
| 16:24.47 | goozbach | I just sprained my eyeballs |
| 16:25.55 | tensai | careful. you need to eyeballs for making eye babies. |
| 16:27.24 | tensai | s/to/those/ |
| 16:27.34 | goozbach | jsmith: the catfish is fried |
| 16:35.11 | findlay | slashdot is entertaining today |
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| 16:43.31 | levi | elg: g'morning |
| 16:44.04 | elg | morn |
| 16:44.42 | levi | elg: I was going to ask you before you disappeared last night how you're supporting yourself at grad school. |
| 16:45.02 | elg | contract work, a TA position, and the occasional loan |
| 16:45.37 | levi | What sort of contract work do you do? |
| 16:45.38 | elg | going to have a GAANN fellowship starting next semester too, which is tuition + need-based stipend. we're hoping the stipend is decent, but we're concerned by the fact that I worked 3/4 of 2005 (it's based on fafsa) |
| 16:45.44 | elg | mostly asterisk |
| 16:45.50 | elg | occasional sysadmin |
| 16:46.16 | elg | could probably land some rails work if that dries up |
| 16:46.56 | levi | I've been considering going to grad school, but I'm not sure how I'd transition from full-time employment to full-time school. |
| 16:47.02 | elg | the ta position pays decent - $22/hr I think, and at least so far the ta jobs have been stress-free |
| 16:47.14 | elg | well, you have to get rid of a lot of stuff. :) |
| 16:47.25 | elg | assuming you live in a house or large apt. |
| 16:47.37 | elg | and buy fewer toys. |
| 16:48.08 | elg | not sure if I'll do TA next year or not - the major point was TA gets me in-state tuition |
| 16:48.18 | elg | but next fall I'll be resident so I may just do contract work |
| 16:48.24 | elg | (pays better) |
| 16:48.31 | levi | I live in a 2-bedroom condo, and we've been gradually getting rid of stuff as we do redecoration. |
| 16:49.04 | levi | So, I think I could fit in an apartment just fine. |
| 16:49.20 | elg | yeah, probably |
| 16:49.30 | elg | then it's just a matter of budget |
| 16:49.39 | elg | being a cheapskate helps.:) |
| 16:50.22 | levi | Unfortunately, neither my wife nor I are cheapskates. Not spendthrifts either, but it would still probably be a serious adjustment. |
| 16:51.02 | levi | What I'd really like is something like a nice easy Google Ads income. |
| 16:51.45 | ^Migs^ | I've been considering grad school, too |
| 16:51.47 | elg | in most cases you can think of grad school as a relatively low-paying job. You usually get enough money in stipend or financial aid (aside from loans) that you can live off it if you're frugal. Then of course there's wife and possibly kids, which is where the decent-paying consultant gigs kick in |
| 16:51.55 | ^Migs^ | It would have to be a distance education, though |
| 16:52.04 | ^Migs^ | perhaps from Western Governor's University or the U of Phoenix |
| 16:52.19 | ^Migs^ | in which case, there would be no stipend |
| 16:52.37 | elg | yeah, but if tuition can adjust with pace it might not be too bad |
| 16:52.46 | ^Migs^ | my friend is in grad school at the U of U, and somehow he's making a crapload and still finds time to play Guild Wars most of the day |
| 16:52.52 | ^Migs^ | he just bought a $40,000 car |
| 16:53.04 | elg | crazy |
| 16:53.05 | levi | Yeah, I'll have a kid in a month, so I'll have to have some sort of side job. |
| 16:53.08 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I'm trying to figure it out |
| 16:53.15 | levi | What does he do to make a crapload? |
| 16:53.20 | ^Migs^ | he's a grad student |
| 16:53.24 | ^Migs^ | doesn't do anything |
| 16:53.27 | levi | Hrm. |
| 16:53.28 | ^Migs^ | they just pay him |
| 16:53.41 | levi | Is he taking student loans, too? |
| 16:53.42 | sjansen | is he living off Daddy or loans? |
| 16:53.49 | ^Migs^ | full tuition waiver |
| 16:54.05 | sjansen | ain't no way a grad student is making big bucks unless he's doing something on the side |
| 16:54.13 | ^Migs^ | that's not completely unusual for a grad student to get a full tuition waiver |
| 16:54.23 | elg | no, but then there's living |
| 16:54.26 | ^Migs^ | in fact, you probably shouldn't go to grad school unless you can do that (not counting distance education) |
| 16:54.30 | ^Migs^ | he's not |
| 16:54.36 | elg | not living? :) |
| 16:54.43 | ^Migs^ | at least it seems like he's making a crapload, even though he says he's not. But he goes out to eat every day, just bought that car... |
| 16:54.53 | levi | You can't buy food or housing with a tuition waiver. |
| 16:55.03 | ^Migs^ | that's why there's stipends, too |
| 16:55.07 | levi | I assume he's single. |
| 16:55.09 | ^Migs^ | stipends are in addition to tuition waivers |
| 16:55.11 | ^Migs^ | yes, obviously |
| 16:55.27 | levi | Does he live in a craphole? |
| 16:55.30 | sjansen | probably living off loans on the assumption he'll be able to pay them back quickly |
| 16:55.30 | ^Migs^ | think of it as your salary. |
| 16:55.34 | ^Migs^ | I haven't even seen his apartment |
| 16:55.53 | ^Migs^ | okay, you're all not paying attention. He doesn't have loans, he got a full tuition waiver. The stipend pays for everything else. |
| 16:56.05 | ^Migs^ | I think he probably gets a nice fat one, due to his field in biomedical research |
| 16:56.23 | elg | so you're saying he gets a 40k stipend? |
| 16:56.23 | sjansen | Even in bio-med they don't hand out $40k stipends. |
| 16:56.37 | ^Migs^ | I didn't say he got a 40k stipend. He just bought a $40,000 car. |
| 16:56.47 | ^Migs^ | and makes monthly payments on it |
| 16:57.00 | elg | and goes out to eat every night. we just both came up with the same guess of what equivalent salary that would be |
| 16:57.06 | ^Migs^ | heh |
| 16:57.14 | elg | maybe 30k would be enough as a single |
| 16:57.21 | ^Migs^ | and he plays Guild Wars about 10 hours a day. |
| 16:57.28 | ^Migs^ | so you know he doesn't do anything on the side |
| 16:57.32 | elg | well that's par for grad students, eh? |
| 16:57.47 | levi | Well, it would be nice to be in his situation, but I think it may be an uphill battle to even get into a reputable CS grad program considering my current academic situation. |
| 16:57.49 | ^Migs^ | my other friend dropped out of grad school because he was addicted to World of Warcraft (at least I'm pretty sure that's why he dropped out). |
| 16:57.52 | ^Migs^ | I'm not sure how this guy does it |
| 16:58.08 | sjansen | elg: being single and having spent some time eating out every day, it'd be hard to pay rent, and a car payment and eat out on just $30k |
| 16:58.23 | elg | there you have it. 40k stipend |
| 16:58.25 | elg | or loans |
| 16:58.29 | ^Migs^ | he usually goes to nice restaurants often, too |
| 16:58.40 | ^Migs^ | not all the time, of course. But he's fond of Chinese food, being Asian and all. |
| 16:59.01 | elg | he's probably part of the chinese online mafia |
| 16:59.20 | *** join/#utah QBFreak_ (n=Cubey@cpe-069-132-229-120.carolina.res.rr.com) |
| 16:59.23 | ^Migs^ | so yeah, go to grad school and live like that, levi |
| 16:59.43 | ^Migs^ | I think it's highly irregular, really |
| 16:59.49 | sjansen | *sigh* |
| 16:59.56 | ^Migs^ | I'm not exactly sure how much his stipend was, but my other friend's stipend was only about 22k |
| 17:00.03 | sjansen | You know you're doing something wrong when you start wishing make had regex support. |
| 17:00.13 | elg | there's always rake |
| 17:00.27 | elg | but you're probably right |
| 17:00.46 | levi | ^Migs^: Um, my point is that it might be difficult to get a tution waiver and a stipend given my current situation. |
| 17:00.50 | ^Migs^ | gotcha |
| 17:00.51 | elg | levi: so anyway, grad school is usually easier to afford than undergrad |
| 17:00.53 | ^Migs^ | not the best GPA? |
| 17:01.02 | sjansen | elg: You _don't_ want to see my Rake file. I'm using a patched version of Rake that lets me do evil things. |
| 17:01.02 | elg | and there's always part-time |
| 17:01.08 | ^Migs^ | I almost graduated cum laude. Narrowly missed it. |
| 17:01.22 | ^Migs^ | I'm not sure I'd have an easy time doing it either, but like I said, I'd have to do distance education |
| 17:01.46 | ^Migs^ | I'm too busy to go to a campus, and we're not moving out of state |
| 17:01.50 | levi | ^Migs^: Well, not the best school, and a rather spotty bunch of transcripts from previous schools. |
| 17:02.09 | ^Migs^ | I could've been a better student. I just didn't start caring early enough. |
| 17:02.20 | levi | ^Migs^: My UVSC GPA is pretty good, but I got an academic suspension from BYU. |
| 17:02.25 | ^Migs^ | heh |
| 17:02.37 | ^Migs^ | have you considered distance education? |
| 17:02.40 | elg | dunno if nmsu has any research you're interested in, but I think you could get in - they love domestic students, esp. if you want to do phd - and it's cheap to live here. |
| 17:02.51 | ^Migs^ | western governor's university in Salt Lake is even more highly accredited than the University of Phoenix |
| 17:03.01 | ^Migs^ | http://www.wgu.edu/ |
| 17:03.03 | brac | [online university - WGU - online colleges - online degrees] |
| 17:03.06 | elg | when do you graduate? does it matter about byu if you graduate with a bs? |
| 17:03.11 | levi | I've considered it, but I don't really like the idea of a distance education Masters degree. |
| 17:03.12 | ^Migs^ | and it's nice the way they do tuition |
| 17:03.20 | ^Migs^ | it's a flat rate, and you can cram in as many courses you want at a time and still pay the same |
| 17:03.28 | ^Migs^ | don't blame you |
| 17:03.40 | ^Migs^ | I usually do fairly well at them, but it seems you always miss something |
| 17:03.43 | levi | elg: I have no idea when I'll graduate; it depends on when the classes I need are offered at times I can take them. It'll be a while, anyway. |
| 17:04.37 | ^Migs^ | oh, you haven't graduated yet? |
| 17:04.45 | findlay | domesticated students? (: |
| 17:04.49 | levi | Nope. |
| 17:04.50 | ^Migs^ | well, don't worry about it yet then |
| 17:05.00 | ^Migs^ | sometimes it's nice to just take a short break for awhile |
| 17:05.17 | ^Migs^ | unless you feel you really need to go to grad school |
| 17:05.19 | levi | I did take a not so short break already. :) |
| 17:05.26 | ^Migs^ | hehe |
| 17:05.34 | ^Migs^ | I miss being in school |
| 17:05.40 | levi | I'll be 30 in Sept. |
| 17:05.48 | findlay | levi: I challenge you that I'll be in school longer |
| 17:05.50 | ^Migs^ | but I don't like that I'd be away from my family. I wish my current job had tuition assistance. My old one did. |
| 17:05.57 | levi | findlay: Oh, I don't doubt it. :) |
| 17:06.16 | findlay | and whoever graduates last gets a bag of jelly beans |
| 17:06.44 | levi | My current job is paying my tuition, which is nice. It also helps motivate me to keep my grades up, though I'm overall a much more responsible student these days anyway. |
| 17:06.47 | tensai | whoever graduates first can buy all the jelly beans they want (except the history majors) |
| 17:07.22 | ^Migs^ | I'd really like to get back in the commercial sector |
| 17:07.27 | ^Migs^ | perhaps when I do, then grad school will be more likely |
| 17:07.46 | ^Migs^ | if your current job will help pay your grad school tuition, go for it, if you can |
| 17:08.10 | levi | It would, but I'm not crazy about doing part-time school. |
| 17:08.11 | ^Migs^ | how much of it does it pay? |
| 17:08.22 | ^Migs^ | no one is |
| 17:08.48 | ^Migs^ | crap, the WGU people jump on you the instance you visit the site. They actually initiate a chat session |
| 17:08.52 | levi | It covers the full tuition cost for work-related classes if I get an A or B. |
| 17:09.09 | levi | And work-related is pretty loose. |
| 17:09.15 | ^Migs^ | cool |
| 17:09.19 | ^Migs^ | wow |
| 17:09.24 | elg | i'm off to write a modem in assembly |
| 17:09.26 | ^Migs^ | mine only covered up to $1000 in work-related classes |
| 17:09.33 | ^Migs^ | what's your company? |
| 17:09.46 | ^Migs^ | 1000 a semester, I think |
| 17:10.03 | levi | Linux Networx. |
| 17:13.06 | sjansen | oh my, I think I just found an evil way to use regex in gmake |
| 17:13.23 | levi | sjansen: Don't be evil! |
| 17:14.36 | Jayce^ | <kiki>Stay good Riff... Stay Good</kiki> |
| 17:16.29 | harleypig | Is therere a way to force a particular process through a specific interface? |
| 17:17.06 | harleypig | I'd like to keep my ssh connection going through my wireless so that it doesn't matter how many times I unplug the cable I'm still connected. |
| 17:17.16 | levi | Jayce^: Heh, I used to read Sluggy all the time. |
| 17:17.37 | Jayce^ | back when it was more fun? :) |
| 17:17.42 | levi | Yeah. |
| 17:17.48 | Jayce^ | you read schlock? |
| 17:18.10 | levi | Nope. I can never manage to follow any comic for very long. |
| 17:18.35 | levi | I currently have Dilbert and Foxtrot come up in a somewhat automated fashion, so I read them occasionally. |
| 17:18.45 | Jayce^ | that one has the best story/writing out there. |
| 17:19.14 | maquis | i follow userfriendly, dilbert and foxtrot... |
| 17:19.20 | tensai | Jayce^: I read it. wasn't impressed. |
| 17:19.21 | maquis | and real life when i remember |
| 17:19.27 | Jayce^ | ~lart tensai |
| 17:19.38 | tensai | userfriendly, also not funny. foxtrot, hilarious. |
| 17:19.57 | levi | Foxtrot: sometimes hilarious |
| 17:20.07 | sjansen | drats! thwarted! |
| 17:20.08 | maquis | tensai: depends on the week.... userfriendly has its moments... and its duds |
| 17:20.16 | tensai | I also recently pruned Get Fuzzy from my list |
| 17:20.28 | Jayce^ | booger |
| 17:21.00 | tensai | maybe it'd be funny if I had a cat or dog. but I don't |
| 17:21.01 | levi | For a while, I read really bizarre comics regularly. Like Dinosaur Comics. |
| 17:21.42 | Jayce^ | tensai, did sophie scare you away from that? |
| 17:22.05 | tensai | Jayce^: she didn't help :) |
| 17:22.12 | Jayce^ | :) |
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| 17:22.19 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:22.47 | Jayce^ | that's what happens when you stuff a lab in a car for a long road trip :) |
| 17:23.39 | tensai | I can deal with other people's dogs, but I don't think it would work out well to have my own (for me or for the dog) |
| 17:24.21 | Hhhhh | http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2006/04/unabridged-selective-transcript-of.html <-- more of RMS's extreme nonsense |
| 17:24.24 | brac | [All about Linux: The unabridged selective transcript of Richard M Stallman's talk at the ANU] |
| 17:27.49 | Hhhhh | <whine>However after people started using essentially the GNU system with Linux added, and called it Linux, it no longer led then to the philosophy associated with GNU - the philosophy of free software. Instead of that, the people read the philosophy that was associated with the name Linux. The apolitical philosophy of Linus Torvalds who thinks that all software licences are legitimate and it is wrong ever to violate them. So his views on this are more or |
| 17:27.49 | Hhhhh | less the same as Microsoft's. Now he of course has the right to promote his views but I object to our work becoming the main basis for promoting his views because it is attributed to him directly by labeling the GNU system as Linux. And that is why I ask people to call the system as GNU/Linux.</whine> |
| 17:28.29 | Hhhhh | I guess the GPL is working against RMS's views... |
| 17:30.27 | Hhhhh | One of the big dangers in our community is that people start putting non-free software into the system and they call it bonus. They say it is a nice addition, it gives more features. Yes it gives you more features at the cost of your freedom. When these things are distributed separately, they call it value added packages. And that term makes it stick about your values. It says it values your convenience only, don't value your freedom. So I prefer to call t |
| 17:30.27 | Hhhhh | hem freedom subtracted packages. That makes a statement about my values. |
| 17:30.29 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 17:30.45 | tensai | but you'll note that RMS is politely (as polite as he ever gets) asking people, rather than trying to force them through some loop hole or lawsuit. even if it bugs him, he is at least respecting the freedoms. |
| 17:31.28 | sjansen | And there's alot to be said for software Freedom. Frankly, I agree with him about "value added" packages. |
| 17:31.31 | Hhhhh | of course |
| 17:31.52 | Hhhhh | how can accepting a license be "losing your freedom"? |
| 17:32.08 | Hhhhh | that's an oxymoron |
| 17:32.11 | tensai | have you not been paying attention? |
| 17:32.24 | tensai | that's a basic tenet of Free Software |
| 17:32.34 | Hhhhh | basic, yet wrong |
| 17:32.50 | Hhhhh | you cannot lose freedom if you carry on with your own choices |
| 17:33.06 | Hhhhh | unless, of course, you think your freedom is to go over someone else's |
| 17:33.18 | sjansen | Hhhhh: tensaid and I are assuming that you'll actually abide by the terms you agreed to in the license |
| 17:33.27 | Hhhhh | if someone makes software and puts an EULA, that's fine, you can eitehr agree or disagree to it. It's a contract |
| 17:34.10 | Hhhhh | saying that a closed-source license takes away my freedom is JUST like saying that my landlord is stealing the rent money from me |
| 17:34.10 | sjansen | If I use F/OSS, I have the freedom to fix it myself. If I use proprietary software, I've lost the freedom to fix it myself. |
| 17:34.24 | maquis | Hhhhh: do you read the EULA for every piece of software you install on your system? |
| 17:34.32 | Hhhhh | no freedom to fix it yourself, you never had that freedom (unless you step over someone else's freedom) |
| 17:34.37 | sjansen | Hhhhh: stealing != losing |
| 17:34.40 | Hhhhh | maquis, I do at least scan it |
| 17:34.52 | Hhhhh | to make sure there is nothing weird in it |
| 17:34.55 | RyanE | RMS doesn't disagree that you CAN make that exchange, but says that you should value your freedom to tinker enough to NOT make that exchange. |
| 17:35.10 | sjansen | Well, actually, stealing is a subset of losing. |
| 17:35.10 | RyanE | and freedom to share, improve, reverse-engineer, etc. |
| 17:35.19 | tensai | example: I'll give you a cookie if you promise not to dance on the roof. If you agree, you are now less free. Perhaps you don't care about your dancing rights, or the cookie is more valuable, but you can see that you are more limited than before. |
| 17:35.19 | levi | Dang it, now you guys have got me reading Dinosaur Comics again. |
| 17:35.35 | Hhhhh | RyanE, again, there is no freedom to tinker around that is being violated, considering that you never had the right to tinker with software for which you have no rights to tinker with |
| 17:35.59 | RyanE | Hhhhh: it's more like you're saying that you'll sell me a cookie, then not allow me to see what's in it before I eat it. |
| 17:36.03 | sjansen | Hhhhh: Sure I did. Copyright is not a natural right, it is artificial. |
| 17:36.17 | maquis | Hhhhh: if the license doesn't say not to reverse engineer, you can tinker quite a bit |
| 17:36.23 | RyanE | Hhhhh: are you saying I shouldn't be able to take something I bought and look inside? |
| 17:36.30 | Hhhhh | if I did not write a piece of software, what rights do I have to it? None, except by those that I get when acquiring the software |
| 17:36.32 | RyanE | is my car's hood welded shut? |
| 17:36.33 | maquis | you can't distribute that tinkering, but there's nothing preventing you from tinkering |
| 17:36.44 | ^Migs^ | car != software |
| 17:36.49 | Hhhhh | RyanE, if one of the conditions for sale was that you couldn't, exactly |
| 17:36.50 | RyanE | more and more, it is. |
| 17:37.03 | maquis | Hhhhh: unless there's an abusive EULA, you can do whatever you want with that particular copy of the software on your own machine |
| 17:37.14 | RyanE | RMS' argument is that you SHOULDN'T buy a car with the hood welded shut, not that you CAN'T. |
| 17:37.15 | Hhhhh | RyanE, if it concerns you that your car's hood is welded shut, then don't buy from that guy |
| 17:37.20 | RyanE | duh |
| 17:37.23 | maquis | i would argue that an EULA that welds your hood shut is inherently abusive |
| 17:37.27 | Hhhhh | RyanE, that's what I'm arguing |
| 17:37.29 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@c-67-166-97-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:37.35 | ^Migs^ | unless he's the only guy selling a half-decent car |
| 17:37.36 | RyanE | so you're in agreement with RMS on that point. |
| 17:37.39 | RyanE | :) |
| 17:37.48 | Hhhhh | RyanE, but RMS trashing Linus or MS or whoever isn't that mild, we're being honest here |
| 17:38.06 | Hhhhh | he "says" that, but the meaning of his message goes beyond |
| 17:38.09 | RyanE | if someone were selling cars with welded shut hoods, I think thrashing them is perfectly valid. |
| 17:38.25 | Hhhhh | if you want to |
| 17:38.38 | RyanE | yeah, I'm stretching the metaphor, but I think I should have the right to do whatever I want with something I buy. |
| 17:38.53 | maquis | Hhhhh: if he's saying one thing and you're saying you disagree with him because he means something else, then you're on kinda weird ground in the argument |
| 17:38.59 | Hhhhh | maquis, how can I be abusive with my own porperty? |
| 17:39.13 | maquis | Hhhhh: i'm not saying you're abusive with your property |
| 17:39.17 | RyanE | If I feel like being a ricer and putting a huge fin on my crappy kia, I should be able to. |
| 17:39.28 | maquis | i'm saying that the license is abusive in preventing you from doing things with your property |
| 17:39.35 | RyanE | If I want to bolt on an aftermarket part on my engine, I should be able to. |
| 17:39.42 | Jayce^ | RyanE, no *that* should be illegal... :) |
| 17:39.57 | Hhhhh | at this point, I believe the RMS mentality is one of the biggest obstacles in Open Source proselyting |
| 17:39.57 | RyanE | Jayce^: certainly is immoral and in bad taste, but not illegal... |
| 17:40.12 | maquis | Hhhhh: you said you agree with what he says |
| 17:40.12 | Hhhhh | maquis, the software is not your proerty |
| 17:40.24 | RyanE | Hhhhh: and *I* think that although he is somewhat of a nut, that SOMEONE needs to say what he's saying. |
| 17:40.26 | maquis | Hhhhh: the copy that i bought is... otherwise, why did i buy it? |
| 17:40.36 | tensai | Hhhhh: careful there. without RMS there would be no open source. |
| 17:40.49 | Hhhhh | maquis, you're wrong, you bought a license to a piece of software that happened to come with an install CD |
| 17:40.55 | RyanE | tensai: he would say "Free Software", not 'open source'... |
| 17:41.01 | Hhhhh | tensai, I know that, but I think it';s time to move on |
| 17:41.13 | tensai | RyanE: OSS being a descendent of sorts |
| 17:41.43 | Hhhhh | anyways, I'm annoyed at the petulant "moral" tone that RMS puts into this |
| 17:41.57 | Hhhhh | "One of the big dangers in our community is that people start putting non-free software into the system and they call it bonus." |
| 17:42.10 | Hhhhh | dangers, bleh |
| 17:42.17 | tensai | Hhhhh: he's been a nut this whole time and so far it's been helpful. we can't just dismiss him out of hand because he rubs some people the wrong way. |
| 17:42.38 | maquis | Hhhhh: the way i see it, that copy of the software is mine, and if i want to see how it works, or change someting about the way it works, you have no right to tell me i can't... and if you try, i will *refuse* to purchase what you offer |
| 17:42.57 | Hhhhh | tensai, it's not about rubbing people thwe wrong way, they guy is accusing independent closed-source developers of antisocial |
| 17:43.22 | Hhhhh | maquis, that's the way you see it. But you agreed to a different legally binding contract, so that is very irrelevant |
| 17:43.23 | maquis | Hhhhh: i think that what they're restricting me from doing is wrong |
| 17:43.26 | tensai | Hhhhh: he seems to be rubbing you the wrong way. I can't say I agree with everything he says either. |
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| 17:43.35 | maquis | Hhhhh: which is why i refuse to agree to those legally binding contracts |
| 17:43.41 | Hhhhh | maquis, "the way I see it" isn't an excuse for me to change my rental contract |
| 17:43.56 | RyanE | Hhhhh: but it IS an excuse to not enter into that contract. |
| 17:44.00 | maquis | Hhhhh: i'm saying that i see those contracts as abusive, so i refuse to enter into them |
| 17:44.10 | maquis | i'm not saying that now thwat i'm in it i have the right to ignore them |
| 17:44.10 | Hhhhh | maquis, good, just don't use that software then. Nothign wrong with that, it's just a mismatch between your needs and that piece of software |
| 17:44.15 | tensai | maquis: traditionally, you would have been right. that's why there are efforts to make shrink wrap and click wrap license legally enforceable. |
| 17:44.48 | Hhhhh | maquis, and that is perfectly fine. But under RMS's worldview, there is a "moral" problem there which doesn't exist |
| 17:44.50 | maquis | tensai: huh? |
| 17:44.56 | tensai | always enforceable, I should say. currently it's a nasty mess. |
| 17:45.19 | tensai | maquis: eulas aren't strictly binding nor strictly unenforceable |
| 17:45.34 | RyanE | Hhhhh: I would say that putting out something that I can't interoperate with (i.e. a DVD that it's against the law to otherwise legally play) IS IMMORAL. |
| 17:45.50 | Hhhhh | maquis, that's the thing: if you don't like the license, it's your freedom to refuse and not use the product, and that is fine. RMS sees those licenses as something immoral, I see them as something amoral (which is what should be) |
| 17:45.56 | maquis | Hhhhh: i would argue that there is a moral issue involved |
| 17:45.57 | Hhhhh | RyanE, why? |
| 17:46.02 | Hhhhh | what moral issue? |
| 17:46.04 | RyanE | I purchased the DVD |
| 17:46.11 | Hhhhh | is someone forcing you to use it, or using your tax money on it? |
| 17:46.14 | RyanE | should I not be able to watch however I choose? |
| 17:46.22 | Hhhhh | no |
| 17:46.23 | maquis | i think that abusive licenses are immoral |
| 17:46.28 | Hhhhh | why? |
| 17:46.38 | maquis | because they abuse the consumer's rights |
| 17:46.42 | Hhhhh | you did not purchase the DVD, you purchased the DVD with some conditions |
| 17:46.47 | Hhhhh | maquis, what consumers right |
| 17:46.57 | RyanE | Yeah, I purchased the right to view it's content |
| 17:47.00 | maquis | the consumer's rights to use the software that they purchased |
| 17:47.13 | Hhhhh | maquis, are they changing a legally binding contract in a post-facto fashion? |
| 17:47.21 | maquis | or in RyanE's example, the consumer's right to listen to music or watch a dvd that they purchased |
| 17:47.23 | Hhhhh | maquis, no, they have the right |
| 17:47.32 | RyanE | no, you don't, if you're running Linux. |
| 17:47.32 | Hhhhh | maquis, they have full use of the rights they bought and paid for |
| 17:47.41 | maquis | Hhhhh: let's take a different example... i go to the store and buy a cd |
| 17:47.43 | RyanE | there's no legal way to play it, due to DMCA |
| 17:47.52 | RyanE | however, I otherwise have the right to play it. |
| 17:47.52 | Hhhhh | RyanE, that is a good point |
| 17:47.55 | maquis | when i get it home, i discover that this cd is DRM'd |
| 17:48.12 | maquis | and, due to the nature of the DRM, i can't play it without using third-party software that has crazy licenses |
| 17:48.13 | RyanE | however, the CD maquis is referring to doesn't even advertise that it's not a 'regular' audio CD... |
| 17:48.52 | maquis | i can either A) agree to a license that i disagree with (that i find abusive, and do not want to agree to), or i can throw away the cd, and lose whatever money i spent on it |
| 17:48.53 | Hhhhh | maquis, I'm leaving out DRM on this one |
| 17:48.53 | levi | Hhhhh: You can't argue that something is not immoral just because it is legal unless you assume that legality == morality, which is not a very common stance these days. |
| 17:49.18 | Hhhhh | levi, I don't argue for that in general, but on this matter I believe they are |
| 17:49.24 | RyanE | Hhhhh: I'm not arguing that everything RMS says is gospel and right and that every commercial software entity is evil. |
| 17:49.48 | maquis | if i buy something, i would say that, if i don't redistribute my changes, you should not be allowed to restrict me from making changes... you certainly don't have to make it easy for me... |
| 17:49.49 | Hhhhh | levi, I don't see anybody who understands the rights and limitations of the software and decides to go through with it being hurt |
| 17:50.01 | maquis | but i'm not doing anything immoral if i change the way it works |
| 17:50.15 | maquis | i bought a copy, and i'm not going to re-release it... i just want to change something |
| 17:50.22 | Hhhhh | if there was misinformation (which could arguably be the case with DRM, that's why I'm not referring to that ATM), then there would be consumer rights abuse |
| 17:50.47 | Hhhhh | if the company changed the policies in a post-facto fashion with no previous agreement that they could, then I see consumer rights abuse |
| 17:50.59 | maquis | i agree that it's currently "illegal", if i agreed to a license... but i would say that the license itself is "immoral" in restricting that right |
| 17:51.03 | Hhhhh | but the companies are sticking to their original license, what abuse? |
| 17:51.11 | Hhhhh | why>? |
| 17:51.15 | Hhhhh | if you're forced to it, sure |
| 17:51.23 | Hhhhh | but nobody says you have to use that product |
| 17:51.40 | levi | maquis: You need to come up with a principle that such a license violates in order to make an effective argument, though. |
| 17:52.02 | Hhhhh | I don't think there is such principle, levi |
| 17:52.08 | levi | Hhhhh: Obviously. |
| 17:52.12 | maquis | i bought it |
| 17:52.20 | Hhhhh | you bought a license, right |
| 17:52.24 | Hhhhh | be specific |
| 17:52.30 | maquis | i bought a *copy* of the software |
| 17:52.37 | Hhhhh | not really |
| 17:52.41 | Jayce^ | it'll have between 768mb and 1.2gb of ram most likely |
| 17:52.41 | Hhhhh | you bought a license |
| 17:52.51 | Hhhhh | that happened to come with a copy of it |
| 17:53.01 | Hhhhh | or you could download it |
| 17:53.05 | maquis | ok... but i still have paid money for a copy of the software |
| 17:53.11 | Hhhhh | not really, again |
| 17:53.12 | maquis | that copy of the software now belongs to me |
| 17:54.00 | Hhhhh | you paid for a license to use it |
| 17:54.00 | Hhhhh | it doesn't |
| 17:54.01 | Hhhhh | that'[s not what the agreement says |
| 17:54.01 | Hhhhh | that's what you're saying |
| 17:54.01 | maquis | i find that stupid |
| 17:54.01 | levi | You bought a medium that contains a physical manifestation of the software as well as a license to use it. |
| 17:54.01 | Hhhhh | you might as well, but that doesnt make it eitehr wrong, abusive or immoral |
| 17:54.11 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@c-67-166-97-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:54.18 | levi | Maquis seems to believe that companies should not be able to restrict your right to do what you please with the physical medium. |
| 17:54.20 | Hhhhh | levi, you buy the CD but not full rights to the use of what is in there |
| 17:54.31 | tensai | the distinction Hhhhh is beating to death is important. legally, if you own a copy of something you have an intrinsic right to make certain uses of it. if you don't own it, but merely have a license then you have no rights except whatever the original rights holder graciously grants you. |
| 17:54.36 | Hhhhh | then I can put my software for download only, and then maquis would be happy then? |
| 17:54.39 | maquis | Hhhhh: how can you own a cd, but not what is on it? |
| 17:54.49 | Hhhhh | maquis, oh, you can, real easy |
| 17:54.52 | maquis | if i then change what's on the cd, then do i own it? |
| 17:54.54 | Hhhhh | maquis, just buy the license |
| 17:55.02 | maquis | or am i not permitted to change what's on the cd? |
| 17:55.07 | tensai | that's why software companies are really trying to push the licensed not sold idea |
| 17:55.12 | levi | Hhhhh: The bit pattern then exists on your hard drive, which you are free to do with what you please. |
| 17:55.25 | Hhhhh | maquis, it depends on the license. I guess if you wanna grabn a keychain or a coin and scratch the CD, that's OK |
| 17:55.33 | Hhhhh | levi, not really |
| 17:55.42 | levi | Hhhhh: Well, so you say. |
| 17:55.45 | Hhhhh | levi, the license demands that you don't, license to which you agreed |
| 17:55.49 | Hhhhh | not me |
| 17:55.50 | maquis | Hhhhh: and the licenses all say, in essence "we reserve the right to change this license without telling you" |
| 17:55.51 | Hhhhh | the license |
| 17:55.57 | levi | Hhhhh: But not all license terms are legally binding. |
| 17:56.05 | Hhhhh | most EULAs have specific clauses about reverse engineering and such |
| 17:56.06 | maquis | so, let's say that through some stupidity, i buy a "license" to a piece of software |
| 17:56.10 | maquis | and then you decide to change the license |
| 17:56.22 | Hhhhh | maquis, then I would object |
| 17:56.34 | Hhhhh | maquis, THEN you could argue for consumer rights abuse |
| 17:56.38 | RyanE | Hhhhh: if anything, you're arguing to me that validity of RMS' point, that I shouldn't buy software that is licensed... :) |
| 17:56.39 | maquis | so, if all i get when i buy software is a license, and the license can be changed, then i'm not getting anything |
| 17:56.54 | Hhhhh | unless the license specifies that it could be changed at alater time, thing that you're agreeing to |
| 17:57.17 | Hhhhh | RyanE, if the licenses don't fit your needs and preferences, exactly |
| 17:57.25 | maquis | Hhhhh: almost all the licenses i've actually looked at had that someplace in them (aside from oss licenses) |
| 17:57.35 | maquis | so, that means that if i purchase that software, i'm getting nothing |
| 17:57.44 | Hhhhh | RyanE, I don't have a NEED to reverse engineer World of Warcraft, so I'm fine with such a license |
| 17:57.56 | Hhhhh | I find it LESS restrictive to not be overzealous about licenses |
| 17:57.56 | tensai | oss licenses and eulas are completely different beasts. please don't equate them. |
| 17:58.06 | Hhhhh | which is a direct oposition to RMS's predicaments |
| 17:58.17 | Hhhhh | tensai, they're both forms of licensing |
| 17:58.21 | maquis | i don't see "purchasing a license" as buying anything, if it has those kinds of restrictions... they should just call it what it is "rent the software from the company" |
| 17:58.30 | Hhhhh | I'm referring to them as high as such |
| 17:58.40 | Hhhhh | maquis, and you might be right as well |
| 17:58.50 | Hhhhh | maquis, rentr for an indefinite amount of time |
| 17:58.52 | maquis | Hhhhh: i think that's stupid |
| 17:58.54 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 17:59.02 | tensai | Hhhhh: horses and cars are means of transportation, but they're hardly the same thing either |
| 17:59.02 | maquis | if i'm going to pay for something, i want to own it |
| 17:59.06 | ^Migs^ | you're all being stupid |
| 17:59.08 | Hhhhh | that's fine, if you don't like it, you're free to not agree |
| 17:59.12 | ^Migs^ | you don't "own" anything |
| 17:59.30 | ^Migs^ | everything belongs to Mother Earth |
| 17:59.33 | Hhhhh | maquis, that's fine too, if you want to own it, you could make one yourself |
| 17:59.42 | Hhhhh | or get one that allows you to own it |
| 18:00.09 | Hhhhh | being really literal, you don't own OSS apps either, the authorship still belongs to someone else |
| 18:00.21 | Hhhhh | (most licenses, zlib licenses and such excluded) |
| 18:00.42 | maquis | but they give me the rights that i think come with purchasing something |
| 18:01.10 | maquis | if i go and buy a table, i have the right to chop the legs of the table so that i can make it shorter... |
| 18:01.21 | maquis | if i'm going to buy software, i don't see why i can't have the same rights |
| 18:01.29 | Hhhhh | maquis, that's right, I guess everyone wants rights on purchased software to different extents, it all comes to choosing the app that has the license that fits your needs |
| 18:01.42 | tensai | you don't own the copyright, but you do own the copy you have. that's why oss licenses are different. they only deal with your rights to copy, things which normally are forbidden. you have a free use of the software because you own your copy, hence no need for a eula. |
| 18:01.58 | Hhhhh | tensai, that's right |
| 18:01.59 | maquis | Hhhhh: why do software companies have the right to restrict what i do with the software? |
| 18:02.07 | maquis | (outside of redistribution) |
| 18:02.26 | maquis | the way i see it, the only thing they *ought* to be able to restrict is anything that involves redistribution |
| 18:02.27 | Hhhhh | maquis, because 1) they developed the product, 2) they are not forced to distribute it 3) you agree top their license when you get the product |
| 18:02.30 | Hhhhh | just that simple |
| 18:02.39 | Hhhhh | why ought? |
| 18:02.42 | JoshH | maquis: from what i understand, it's supposedly because of the law, and because you clicked "accept" on the eula |
| 18:02.47 | maquis | Hhhhh: table manufacturers developed their chairs, aren't forced to distribute it, etc... |
| 18:02.51 | Hhhhh | why do you think you can tell them what they *ought* and what not? |
| 18:03.15 | maquis | but i doubt they are able to sell you a "license" to a table, and say "you can pay us for this chair, but if you cut the legs to make it shorter, you're breaking the law" |
| 18:03.22 | Hhhhh | maquis, I believe I should get a copy of all the projects you've done in your classes and use them in my propietary closed-source app |
| 18:03.24 | tensai | maquis: if, through some amount of legal wrangling, they con you into licensing the software rather than purchasing, then you don't own it and you don't have any rights outside of what they grant you. |
| 18:03.34 | levi | Hhhhh: Why do you think they should be able to tell you what you ought to do with the bit patterns on your hard drive? |
| 18:03.38 | Hhhhh | maquis, I think you *ought* to let me have it for that purpose |
| 18:03.49 | maquis | tensai: but they still refer to it as purchasing, which is misleading and wrong |
| 18:03.52 | Hhhhh | levi, because you agreed to it |
| 18:03.56 | tensai | maquis: absolutely |
| 18:04.00 | Hhhhh | not really |
| 18:04.10 | bertbob | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060401123550319 is RMS own words |
| 18:04.12 | Hhhhh | it;s very clear, what's being sold is the license |
| 18:04.19 | brac | [GROKLAW] |
| 18:04.20 | maquis | Hhhhh: i haven't distributed those project |
| 18:04.22 | maquis | s |
| 18:04.27 | maquis | and that goes into redistribution |
| 18:04.30 | maquis | you'd be redistributing |
| 18:04.34 | tensai | maquis: and attaching a contract after the sale has been completed is equally wrong and legally problematic |
| 18:04.42 | Hhhhh | maquis, I don't care, I just think you *ought* to let me do what I think I should do with your software |
| 18:04.54 | JoshH | are eula's even legally enforceable? |
| 18:05.06 | tensai | JoshH: the great legal answer: it depends |
| 18:05.09 | JoshH | Hhhhh: if you bought a copy, i'm sure she would let you |
| 18:05.15 | Hhhhh | maquis, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just illustrating how irrelevant what we think the license should be is |
| 18:05.16 | maquis | Hhhhh: by redistributing, you're doing something that i wil lagree is wrong |
| 18:05.18 | JoshH | outside of redistribution |
| 18:05.30 | maquis | Hhhhh: i specifically said, assuming no redistribution |
| 18:05.34 | Hhhhh | maquis, that's right, but I think you *ought* to let me do it |
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| 18:05.44 | Hhhhh | I know you said that, but you ought to |
| 18:05.45 | tensai | JoshH: some things have been held up, some things have been thrown out, some are just a murky grey area |
| 18:06.00 | maquis | Hhhhh: i don't understand what your point is |
| 18:06.05 | tensai | JoshH: somewhere I had a long legal opinion to that effect. can't recall where. |
| 18:06.23 | maquis | i'm assuming you're building off of my use of "ought", but i can't see how it relates to anything i said |
| 18:06.35 | Hhhhh | maquis, again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just telling you that you are the one that made the code, and you are in no obligation to distribute it if you don't want to, and if you do, you can do so under your own terms |
| 18:06.55 | Hhhhh | maquis, I grant the same rights to closed-source app developers |
| 18:07.02 | maquis | Hhhhh: i see software as being no different from a table |
| 18:07.07 | maquis | i build a table |
| 18:07.09 | JoshH | Hhhhh: she is saying companies ought to not worry about what she does with their product after buying it. you are saying she should let you do whatever you want with software that she didn't give to you, it's not the same thing. |
| 18:07.11 | maquis | now, i'm going to sell it to you |
| 18:07.31 | Hhhhh | JoshH, why shouldn't they? they can use their EULAs to direct their sales and profit |
| 18:07.38 | tensai | I think Hhhhh's point is that just wanting something to be one way doesn't make it so |
| 18:07.38 | Hhhhh | JoshH, that is not immoral |
| 18:07.42 | maquis | i can't tell you "i'm going to sell this to you, but if you cut off the legs, i'll sue" |
| 18:07.46 | Hhhhh | tensai, that's right |
| 18:07.55 | Hhhhh | maquis, you could |
| 18:07.55 | JoshH | i understand that |
| 18:08.02 | Hhhhh | maquis, I wouldn't buy your table though |
| 18:08.19 | jsmith | maquis: There's a difference between selling a table and selling a license to use a table |
| 18:08.28 | JoshH | Hhhhh: are you basically saying that if you don't like the restrictions on software, dvd's, etc, you should just not use them? |
| 18:08.32 | maquis | Hhhhh: first off, i don't think that would be legally binding, second off, i don't think i could refer to it as "selling" the table |
| 18:08.34 | jsmith | maquis: It's up to the person who made the table to choose what they're selling |
| 18:08.40 | Hhhhh | maquis, I think your point of "renting the software" is pretty accurate |
| 18:08.50 | Hhhhh | renting for an indefinite length of time |
| 18:08.58 | bertbob | sorry, http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20060330094249412 is the correct URL |
| 18:09.02 | brac | [GROKLAW] |
| 18:09.13 | Hhhhh | is the term "selling" misleading? is the expression "buying my rental contract" misleading? |
| 18:09.18 | maquis | Hhhhh: so, if they are "renting" the software, and calling it selling, then they are being misleading in their advertising |
| 18:09.30 | Hhhhh | refer to my previous statement |
| 18:09.37 | maquis | yes... the term "selling" is misleading |
| 18:09.48 | Hhhhh | hmm |
| 18:09.57 | Hhhhh | maquis, I'll sell you a ticket to go to Lagoon |
| 18:10.04 | Hhhhh | that doesn;t mean that you now own Lagoon |
| 18:10.07 | Hhhhh | nuff' said |
| 18:10.19 | maquis | if they tell me i should go out and "buy" windows vista, and then i go and "buy" it, and they say that i don't own it, then they were misleading |
| 18:10.40 | Hhhhh | maquis, then you shouldn't buy tickets to go watch a movie or go to Lagoon |
| 18:10.44 | Hhhhh | that's misleading |
| 18:10.54 | tensai | as far as using DVD's in your Linux player, there is no license agreement that precludes it. only the DMCA prevents you from reverse engineering the DRM and showing it. otherwise you do own a copy of a DVD which means you have a number of basic rights, such as watching it. |
| 18:10.55 | JoshH | Hhhhh: how about this... say maquis sells you a table, but after you buy the table, you discover a contract inside the box saying that it is only to seat 2 people, if you want to seat more people at the table, you need to buy another one. would it be immoral for her to say screw that and let more people sit there? |
| 18:10.56 | maquis | Hhhhh: when i go to the movie theater, they don't tell me "buy this movie" |
| 18:11.09 | maquis | they say "buy a ticket to view this movie" or something like that |
| 18:11.20 | Hhhhh | JoshH, I have to say that EULAs should be available BEFORE you buy the product |
| 18:11.29 | JoshH | ok |
| 18:11.30 | Hhhhh | JoshH, so you do make a very good point |
| 18:11.30 | maquis | software companies say "buy windows vista" or "buy office" or whatever |
| 18:11.51 | JoshH | so you think it's ok for companies to tell you what you can and can't do with their product, as long as they tell you before you buy it? |
| 18:12.14 | Hhhhh | maquis, again, terminology is used in context, I don't think you'd think you own a restaurant's silverware because you bought a dinner there |
| 18:12.15 | maquis | Hhhhh: i would also say that the contract should be available in a readable form |
| 18:12.21 | Hhhhh | maquis, true |
| 18:12.25 | Hhhhh | I agree to that |
| 18:12.32 | maquis | Hhhhh: yes... but i'm not buying the silverware |
| 18:12.36 | maquis | i'm buying the food |
| 18:12.39 | Hhhhh | EULAs should be available before you go to the cashier |
| 18:12.41 | maquis | i go to buy a meal |
| 18:12.44 | maquis | a meal is food |
| 18:12.51 | maquis | Hhhhh: yes... in a nice simple form |
| 18:12.54 | maquis | not in legalese |
| 18:12.59 | JoshH | Hhhhh: what if the restaurant said she couldn't mix the eggs and hashbrowns together, even if she paid for the meal before eating it? |
| 18:13.11 | findlay | everybody's getting wordy |
| 18:13.13 | Hhhhh | maquis, aha. You';re not buying thje silverware, you're not buying the software |
| 18:13.15 | JoshH | should be legally forced to obey them? |
| 18:13.23 | Hhhhh | JoshH, I'd say that is a weird restaurant |
| 18:13.44 | Hhhhh | JoshH, if you agreed to it in writing, yes |
| 18:13.49 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@66.239.25.80.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 18:13.54 | Hhhhh | JoshH, and I would not go there |
| 18:13.59 | maquis | Hhhhh: what i'm saying is that they need to not use the word "buying" when referring to software, unless they very specifically say "buy a license" |
| 18:14.12 | maquis | because software companies say "buy windows" and "buy office" and stuff |
| 18:14.17 | Hhhhh | maquis, many places say "license", but I understand your point |
| 18:14.19 | maquis | and *that* is misleading |
| 18:14.29 | JoshH | i just think it's stupid how companies think software is different than any other product you buy and own |
| 18:14.34 | Hhhhh | maquis, again, that is a little irrelevant, since the EULAs specifies the terminology |
| 18:14.46 | Hhhhh | JoshH, it might be |
| 18:14.52 | JoshH | if it's not illegal to black out pages of a book and write your own words there with a pen, why should it be illegal to hack your software? |
| 18:15.04 | tensai | JoshH wins a prize! |
| 18:15.07 | Hhhhh | now, notice how the focus switched from the license to the advertising though |
| 18:15.22 | Hhhhh | JoshH, because usually books have no EULAs forbidding it |
| 18:15.30 | Hhhhh | although, the ones at a library do :p |
| 18:15.31 | maquis | Hhhhh: i would argue that a lot of people, if A) they knew that there were alternatives to the common software, and B) the licenses were actually *readable* and not in legalese, most people wouldn't buy the licenses to the software |
| 18:15.34 | Hhhhh | hehe |
| 18:15.38 | Hhhhh | j/k |
| 18:15.51 | tensai | because books have a long tradition before anybody came up with ridiculous eulas. see the first sale doctrine. |
| 18:15.55 | Hhhhh | JoshH, I guess you would get in problems for doing that at a library |
| 18:15.58 | JoshH | well, again, an EULA is just the company trying to control your use of the product, and they are not even necessarily legally binding |
| 18:15.59 | findlay | ~Hhhhh++ |
| 18:16.16 | maquis | Hhhhh: the majority of people don't *know* that there are alternatives, so in a lot of ways, they are forced into these licences |
| 18:16.40 | Hhhhh | maquis, then the problem is the advertising or education, but not the license |
| 18:16.47 | findlay | I think most of the language in EULAs is just boilerplate stuff that a court wouldn't sanctify unquestioned |
| 18:17.07 | maquis | large portions of EULAs have been found to not hold up in court |
| 18:17.27 | Hhhhh | maquis, that's one of my points: the problems you have been pointing out during the last 10 mins aren't license related |
| 18:17.40 | Hhhhh | they are about advertising or education |
| 18:17.42 | tensai | Hhhhh: the point about the license is that by acquiring the software under license you have fewer freedoms than you did before |
| 18:17.58 | maquis | putting things that won't hold up in court into an EULA is probably immoral, because unless it's clear to the consumer that it's not something that's legal for them to require, then they are illegally restricting freedom |
| 18:18.02 | maquis | tensai: yes |
| 18:18.04 | Hhhhh | maquis, and I believe companies could be held responsible for lack of information on the part of the customer |
| 18:18.16 | Hhhhh | maquis, I agree |
| 18:18.28 | maquis | Hhhhh: good |
| 18:18.31 | Hhhhh | maquis, because what they're doing is illegal, not because the license took their freedom away |
| 18:18.45 | Hhhhh | misinformation = illegal |
| 18:18.50 | Hhhhh | but not the license |
| 18:18.52 | maquis | Hhhhh: i'll still claim that licenses take freedom away, though... |
| 18:18.55 | Hhhhh | the license is fine |
| 18:19.10 | maquis | because, even if i agree to the licence, i end with less freedom |
| 18:19.17 | Hhhhh | well, I guess now we wrapped around and we are at the beginning of the conversation |
| 18:19.36 | Hhhhh | maquis, freedom to what |
| 18:19.48 | Hhhhh | to break the EULAs? then you should not have agreed |
| 18:20.11 | Hhhhh | why is it that you don't see that freedom is present, and that people voluntarily give away some things when entering the selling contract? |
| 18:20.49 | Hhhhh | if it is voluntary and informed, it is not a loss of freedom. And if you still consider it so, then the only one to blame is yourself for agreeing to an unsatisfactory license |
| 18:21.11 | maquis | Hhhhh: i agree that people voluntarily give away freedom, but i still consider that to be a limitation on their freedom after that point |
| 18:21.12 | tensai | take the example of the guys who cloned battlenet. because they had used starcraft, they lost freedoms. what they did in reverse engineering battlenet would have been completely legal had they never opened up starcraft. |
| 18:21.13 | Hhhhh | it;s like if I was arguing that now my right to property has been taken away because I have to pay my mortgage |
| 18:21.18 | ^Migs^ | this conversation has officially been going on for an hour. Not that I suggest it stop. Just an interesting side note. |
| 18:21.35 | maquis | tensai: that's a *good* example |
| 18:21.47 | findlay | stop now! I command it |
| 18:21.56 | Hhhhh | or because I have to follow city ordinances with respect to building in my house |
| 18:22.03 | tensai | findlay: see, but that would take away my freedoms. let me explain... |
| 18:22.09 | sjansen | Hhhhh: You keep using words like "stolen" or "taken". |
| 18:22.20 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I'm not the one that came up with them |
| 18:22.22 | sjansen | Hhhhh: None of us is arguing that there isn't a trade involved here. |
| 18:22.24 | findlay | ~command |
| 18:22.46 | sjansen | You're trading freedom for license to use. |
| 18:22.48 | ^Migs^ | I agree with findlay, actually. This conversation is taking away the most important point. That I kick ass. |
| 18:22.50 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I know that |
| 18:22.59 | sjansen | I'd prefer a situation where I have a license to use without trading any freedoms. |
| 18:23.09 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I would not call it losing a "freedom" to something you do voluntarily |
| 18:23.12 | ^Migs^ | can't lose sight of that |
| 18:23.30 | maquis | particularly freedoms that i think the company shouldn't have the right to take away |
| 18:23.34 | sjansen | In other words, I want to use software that leaves me with full Freedom instead of software that leaves me with limited Freedom. |
| 18:23.41 | tensai | person A uses Linux. person B uses Windows. person B has fewer freedoms because of his decision to use Windows. |
| 18:23.43 | Hhhhh | sjansen, it's like that dumb cliche that says that "my freedom to swing my arms ends up at your nose" |
| 18:24.09 | sjansen | Hhhhh: Then the discussion will never end because you're assigning different semantics to "freedom" than the rest of us are. |
| 18:24.16 | Hhhhh | tensai, person C is a huge RMS and FSF supporter, and ends up with less software choices because of his activism |
| 18:24.34 | Hhhhh | sjansen, if you want to go for that, ok |
| 18:24.38 | Hhhhh | sjansen, call it freedom |
| 18:24.50 | Hhhhh | anyways, I gotta go back to coding |
| 18:25.44 | JoshH | work sucks |
| 18:25.49 | ^Migs^ | no one's forcing you to work |
| 18:25.57 | JoshH | maybe he is a slave |
| 18:27.57 | harleypig | anyone know of a way to force a process through a particular interface? |
| 18:28.20 | sjansen | remove the other interfaces? |
| 18:28.52 | harleypig | hmmm ... then bring them back up? |
| 18:29.08 | sjansen | I suppose you could get all funky and use netfilter to tag ssh packets as being part of a certain vlan, then route that vlan through a particular interface. |
| 18:29.20 | findlay | person C++ realizes the superiority of C++ over all other languages that ever were created or ever will be created, especially Java |
| 18:29.23 | sjansen | But there's gotta be an easier way |
| 18:31.17 | tensai | harleypig: shouldn't it go out the interface to which the address is attached? I don't see how you're getting that problem. |
| 18:43.34 | sjansen | man ssh: ssh -b <-- looks like that should do it for you |
| 18:44.01 | findlay | ~man ssh |
| 18:44.12 | sjansen | might want to wrap ssh in a script that dynamically determines the address of your wireless card |
| 18:44.19 | findlay | ~info ssh |
| 18:44.44 | findlay | looks like I tripped one of ibot's deadly debian functions |
| 18:45.15 | tensai | if your ip address changes, you're screwed. the remote server isn't going to know to associate your new address with the old connection. |
| 18:45.36 | tensai | I'm still confused on the basic issue. harleypig, you awake? |
| 18:45.40 | findlay | unless you have a script on the server? |
| 18:47.30 | sjansen | If I understood correctly, harleypig wants to make sure SSH connections always go out his wireless connection, even if he has wired plugged in and normal routing would send the traffic through the wired. |
| 18:48.54 | sjansen | Yes, his connection would lost if his wireless IP changes, but at least that way he can take advantage of wired while at his desk, yet pick up his laptop and keep ssh connections active as long as he's in the same wireless zone. |
| 18:49.34 | tensai | I see. yes, it's possible using iproute2. no, I don't know the details. |
| 18:51.13 | tensai | create a route which specifies a certain dev and src ip. create a rule that uses that route whenever the protocol is tcp and port is 22. |
| 18:52.42 | sjansen | you can route on protocol and port without tagging it as a particular vlan? |
| 18:53.38 | tensai | I think so, but I haven't played with it too deeply. you can create rules which specify a number of criteria. I could be wrong though. |
| 18:55.09 | tensai | ah, that's probably how you have to do it. you use iptables to mark the packet, then create a rule to match, then create a route that uses the rule. |
| 18:55.13 | sjansen | looks like you can route on protocol, but you have to know the numerical protocol id for tcp |
| 18:55.33 | tensai | that would route all tcp, which probably isn't what he wants |
| 18:55.57 | tensai | if it's just for a certain server and he only uses ssh to that server, it would be dead simple |
| 18:56.14 | sjansen | oops, actually reading the description of RTPROTO I see I misunderstood |
| 18:56.33 | sjansen | You know what happens when you assume.. |
| 18:57.18 | levi | sjansen: You make an 'as' out of 'sume' |
| 18:57.31 | tensai | yeah, in that case he just needs a more specific route. that'll take precedence over the default route. |
| 18:57.51 | *** join/#utah scott_ (i=scott@crackaddict.com) |
| 18:58.22 | tensai | ip route add server.ip/32 dev eth0 src wifi.ip |
| 18:59.43 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 19:00.50 | tensai | I'm doing the same exact thing on my openwrt box because of a weird rfc1918 address setup I've got |
| 19:01.05 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 19:01.32 | tensai | the wan interface has a private address, and the lan has the public. ip route 0/0 via 10.x.x.1 dev vlan1 src 199.x.x.x. works great. |
| 19:02.18 | tensai | where vlan1 is the internet and br0 would be the lan where 199.x.x.x is actually assigned |
| 19:02.42 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-67-169-251-185.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:02.52 | tensai | ~wake harleypig |
| 19:02.53 | ibot | harleypig: GOOD MORNING!!! |
| 19:03.50 | findlay | ~good morning |
| 19:03.51 | ibot | Good morning! And in case I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening and goodnight! |
| 19:12.48 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@208.187.198.66) |
| 19:13.02 | vontrapp | any mythtvers awake? |
| 19:13.30 | vontrapp | my mythbackend doesn't come up at boot (debian) the init script that's supposed to start it runs, but then it dies |
| 19:16.28 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp40.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 19:19.23 | tensai | vontrapp: open up the init script, find out what command it's running, and then run it yourself |
| 19:19.33 | tensai | if that doesn't give you a clue, run it with strace |
| 19:19.59 | harleypig | tensai: sorry, went to lunch |
| 19:20.02 | harleypig | reading back log |
| 19:20.09 | tensai | harleypig: how dare you! |
| 19:20.20 | findlay | lunch? what's that? |
| 19:20.58 | *** join/#utah TimRikerPDA (n=timr@m210e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 19:22.23 | RyanE | findlay: lunch is what comes after breakfast, second breakfast, and elevensies. |
| 19:22.52 | harleypig | tensai: :] |
| 19:24.09 | harleypig | So, use iptables to mark a connection based on protocol or connection? |
| 19:24.57 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@208.187.198.66) |
| 19:25.51 | harleypig | I'd rather do it on a case-by-case basis. Something like running a script as a wrapper around anything I want to run that way. |
| 19:26.45 | tensai | there's an iptables mod that can look at the process id of the originating packet. you could somehow tie into that. |
| 19:26.53 | tensai | I've never used that mod before, just heard of it |
| 19:27.13 | harleypig | hmmm ... seems like a good excuse to learn more about iptables. |
| 19:33.49 | harleypig | How is kmyfirewall? anyone familiar with it? |
| 19:48.06 | findlay | [: |
| 19:48.18 | findlay | just seeing how it looks |
| 19:49.33 | sjansen | As a rule, I avoid software that starts with "k" or contains "my" in the name. |
| 19:49.44 | findlay | double negative |
| 19:51.07 | harleypig | sjansen: anti-kde? |
| 19:51.19 | ^Migs^ | anyone want to add to the story? http://www.justinreeve.com/myth/index.php |
| 19:51.21 | brac | [Myth2] |
| 20:02.48 | ^Migs^ | heh, nice vontrapp |
| 20:04.00 | ^Migs^ | if anyone has the Epica discography, share it, please |
| 20:04.09 | ^Migs^ | or finds it anywhere |
| 20:04.30 | levi | Epica? |
| 20:08.28 | sjansen | anti-C++, anti-Qt, anti-KDE |
| 20:08.31 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 20:19.08 | findlay | anti-nephi-lehi |
| 20:19.51 | jsmith | Yeah, I really don't want to live in either Nephi or Lehi ;-) |
| 20:21.01 | ^Migs^ | why not, jsmith? |
| 20:21.05 | ^Migs^ | actually never mind, I wouldn't either |
| 20:21.11 | ^Migs^ | Lehi wouldn't be so bad, but Nephi is too far away from anything |
| 20:21.36 | levi | Lehi seems to be doing pretty well these days. |
| 20:25.50 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp40.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 20:30.30 | JoshH | lehi has cabelas, that's the only good thing about it |
| 20:32.06 | jsmith | Lehi has a lot of cookie-cutter homes |
| 20:32.15 | jsmith | And I'm not a fan of cookie-cutter homes |
| 20:32.20 | *** join/#utah pjw (n=pjw@panther.cs.byu.edu) |
| 20:33.26 | elg | jsmith: look at it this way - if you build a unique home in a cookie-cutter environment, it sticks out all the more |
| 20:37.13 | tensai | just don't build a cookie and try to live in it |
| 20:37.53 | RyanE | lehi's problem, as far as I was concerned, is you can't buy lots larger than about 1/2 acre. |
| 20:38.04 | RyanE | liked it other than that. |
| 20:41.56 | elg | tensai: good point. cookie cutters have much more room inside than cookies |
| 20:51.01 | ^Migs^ | and that's all that's getting built nowadays, it seems |
| 20:51.09 | ^Migs^ | it's hard to find a home for sale that's not a model home |
| 20:51.38 | findlay | ~wake findlay |
| 20:51.40 | ibot | findlay: GOOD MORNING!!! |
| 20:54.55 | RyanE | it's also hard to find a lot that you can use to build with your own builder. All the lots in our subdivision were sold that way, fortunately. |
| 20:56.53 | maquis | question: what causes most of the calendar apps to start up so slowly? is it processing the files to get all the information? or is it just the process of loading the GUI? does anybody know how to figure that out/ |
| 20:57.19 | RyanE | probably calculating weekdays for every day from now until 2008. :) |
| 20:57.30 | RyanE | s/weekdays/day-of-the-week/ |
| 20:58.26 | maquis | RyanE: the reason i'm wondering is, i haven't been able to find a good, usable calendar app that doesn't seem to take forever to start up |
| 20:58.40 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@host-73.colo.spiretech.com) |
| 20:58.48 | RyanE | obviously, I was joking, but I've seen some stupid programmers, and some even stupider code. |
| 20:58.52 | tensai | maquis: try vi. just write down all your appointments. |
| 20:58.53 | maquis | yeah |
| 20:58.58 | maquis | tensai: that's what i'm using currently |
| 20:59.08 | maquis | but i have a list of functionality i want in a good calendar... |
| 20:59.13 | tensai | maquis: well, then. problem solved. |
| 20:59.20 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@host-73.colo.spiretech.com) |
| 20:59.32 | maquis | i'm thinking that once i have some free time, i might try to get something that really works... |
| 21:00.07 | RyanE | then after your users clamor for enough features, yours will be bloated and slow-loading, then you can run a profiler on it, and find out why YOUR calendar app starts up so slowly... :) |
| 21:00.07 | elg | maquis, this is what you really want |
| 21:00.08 | elg | http://www.43folders.com/2004/09/03/introducing-the-hipster-pda/ |
| 21:00.10 | brac | [Introducing the Hipster PDA | 43 Folders] |
| 21:00.22 | findlay | cal is pretty fun |
| 21:00.41 | maquis | elg: i've seen that, but i'd like something actually on the computer, i think |
| 21:00.42 | RyanE | findlay: yeah, I went to school with Cal. He was awesome. |
| 21:00.49 | elg | why? |
| 21:01.39 | maquis | elg: mainly becaues my computer goes everywhere i go, and the fact that i want to have things like events in different categories, or notes shared between multiple events and such |
| 21:01.40 | findlay | ~cal |
| 21:01.41 | ibot | cal is, like, a calendar. try $(cal 1752) |
| 21:02.23 | findlay | maquis: I heard of this really cool product bi microsoft called active outlook or something, lol |
| 21:02.39 | maquis | elg: i've started brainstorming exactly which features i want (some of which aren't in any existing calendar app i've found so far), and then i'll post the ideas i've come up with so far |
| 21:02.57 | sjansen | maquis: there are no great calendar apps |
| 21:03.09 | elg | fair enough, but I spent years as a planner junkie and I'm convinced that KISS is really much better. nothing's as portable, foolproof, and easy as a hipster |
| 21:03.14 | sjansen | if they're all too slow for you, time to upgrade your hardware |
| 21:03.31 | findlay | sjansen: isn't that a corollary of the Anthropic Principle? |
| 21:03.48 | sjansen | elg: I don't consider a hipster the same thing as a calendar app. The two are complementary. |
| 21:04.02 | findlay | if there were great calander apps, we wouldn't exist or something like that |
| 21:04.07 | elg | you have a point. esp if sharing is involved |
| 21:04.25 | elg | I admit I sometimes use a wall calendar |
| 21:04.29 | elg | and iCal |
| 21:04.32 | sjansen | A calendar app will give me reminds about things at some distant point. A hipster helps me remember what I need to do today. |
| 21:04.37 | maquis | sjansen: my hardware's not too bad... it just seems like all the apps either do too much or not enough |
| 21:04.56 | elg | well you can have a weekly/monthly calendar on an index card just as well as you can have a daily todo list |
| 21:05.56 | sjansen | IMNSHO, the index card is for collecting date, the app is for archiving and managing. |
| 21:06.01 | findlay | the only downside about paper is that it's not dynamic |
| 21:06.05 | sjansen | s/date/data/ |
| 21:06.31 | elg | findlay: the only downside to programs is that they're not flexible |
| 21:06.42 | sjansen | yup |
| 21:06.43 | elg | and that you have to be at a computer |
| 21:07.09 | findlay | I've been using a plain old poket notebook lately |
| 21:07.22 | elg | i can communicate to myself with a few penstrokes on an index card what it would take hours of hacking to get some silly calendar app to even think about storing |
| 21:07.41 | elg | or at least a dozen clicks |
| 21:08.25 | sjansen | but an index card doesn't pop up annoying windows or make noise |
| 21:08.52 | findlay | number 1 advantage |
| 21:09.10 | maquis | reminders aren't always bad, though... |
| 21:09.19 | elg | that's what my watch is for |
| 21:10.07 | elg | well i mean set a timer |
| 21:10.12 | elg | or alarm |
| 21:10.19 | maquis | yeah |
| 21:10.24 | sjansen | I need multiple alarms, otherwise I'd agree with you. |
| 21:10.36 | elg | you just need to upgrade your watch. :) |
| 21:11.01 | maquis | i wish i could set multiple alarms, and have them come with text (tell me what you're reminding me to do), and could be set for specific days |
| 21:11.08 | findlay | a watch with a needle point qwerty UI |
| 21:11.44 | RyanE | that's what a PalmPilot is for. Haven't found a better calendar app, or form factor. |
| 21:12.02 | RyanE | of course, the kids today would say a phone can do that, but I don't believe 'em. |
| 21:12.06 | elg | I agree a good alarm program is desperately needed. I generally only lose track of time when I'm on the computer, so that's where it's needed. |
| 21:12.27 | elg | i do have iCal, which works for me, but I had no luck finding one I liked in linux |
| 21:12.32 | findlay | ~date |
| 21:12.33 | ibot | It is now 2006.04.05 21:12:33 GMT |
| 21:12.33 | maquis | RyanE: i need to figure out why i've never been able to really get myself using a palm... for some reason, i never end up getting into using it |
| 21:12.50 | maquis | elg: yeah... ical is close to what i want... but not on linux :( |
| 21:12.57 | RyanE | if I don't put an appt. down in the palmpilot, it doesn't exist. |
| 21:13.39 | RyanE | for most of you, implementing an alarm msg system in ibot would suffice, since you always seem to be logged into IRC. :) |
| 21:13.47 | sjansen | Treo 650: two not so great things that go great together |
| 21:14.55 | findlay | ~alarm findlay |
| 21:15.30 | sjansen | I just wish PalmOS sucked less. |
| 21:15.34 | levi | maquis: Do you write down appointments anywhere? |
| 21:16.40 | elg | -lart gtalk |
| 21:16.47 | levi | sjansen: PalmOS is a great OS for a digital day planner replacement, but not so hot for a mini PC replacement. |
| 21:17.10 | sjansen | PalmOS is not a great OS. Anything that crashes so much is not a great OS. |
| 21:17.21 | maquis | levi: i generally make sure they make it to my todo.txt file... which gets opened whenever i log in... |
| 21:17.36 | sjansen | But at least it boots faster than WinCE and burns less battery than WinCE. |
| 21:17.45 | levi | sjansen: Doesn't crash much for me. |
| 21:17.52 | RyanE | sjansen: mine doesn't crash much at all. |
| 21:18.02 | RyanE | a couple of 3rd-party apps do, but they're not necessary... |
| 21:18.05 | sjansen | Then you're using well behaved apps. |
| 21:18.07 | findlay | what about embedded linux? |
| 21:18.53 | findlay | emprostrated linux |
| 21:18.57 | levi | I can't get my @#%! Zaurus to boot now. |
| 21:19.02 | sjansen | An app should not be able to take down an OS. An pre-emptive multi-tasking should be a must for anything more complicated than a refrigerator. |
| 21:19.23 | findlay | I prefer mu Linux to be menacing actually |
| 21:19.24 | levi | I was thinking of replacing my now-disconnected Treo 600 with my Zaurus. |
| 21:19.33 | sjansen | RyanE: Mine doesn't crash much anymore either. I've learned what not to do to it. |
| 21:19.54 | levi | sjansen: That's just silly. The PalmOS model is just fine for a day planner, though memory protection would be nice. |
| 21:20.08 | RyanE | levi: agreed. |
| 21:20.27 | RyanE | amazing that they can do as much as they can on such a simple OS, though. I have a web browser on mine... weird. |
| 21:20.56 | levi | You don't need a complex OS to write complex applications. |
| 21:21.07 | RyanE | I do recognize, however, that PalmOS is apparently on it's way out, unfortunately. It's scarcity of tapping was nice. |
| 21:21.30 | levi | Yeah, the UI was really great for PIM stuff. |
| 21:21.39 | levi | I wish my Palm V hadn't died. |
| 21:22.27 | RyanE | I've been through 5 palmOS units now. |
| 21:23.06 | *** join/#utah bzob (n=bzobrist@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 21:23.18 | RyanE | 2 PalmPilot, Palm III, 2 Handsprings, currently: Sony Clie with built-in WiFi. |
| 21:23.40 | levi | I've only had two; my Palm V and my Treo 600. |
| 21:24.18 | *** join/#utah ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 21:25.46 | maquis | i have an m100 someplace |
| 21:25.49 | maquis | never really used it much |
| 21:25.57 | RyanE | m100 had that smaller screen, didn't it? |
| 21:26.07 | maquis | RyanE: kinda.. it was one of the older ones |
| 21:26.25 | RyanE | yeah, didn't like the smaller screen. was hard enough to read. |
| 21:26.33 | maquis | it just never seemed all that useful... i always have my computer with me, and generally, the computer was on |
| 21:26.50 | RyanE | still faster to put an appt. in on the palmpilot. |
| 21:27.07 | RyanE | to each his/her own, I guess. |
| 21:27.11 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=mheath@c-24-2-81-30.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:27.23 | maquis | RyanE: yeah.. |
| 21:27.33 | maquis | i just haven't really figured out what consistently works for me :) |
| 21:28.00 | RyanE | procrastination and caffeine consistently work for me. |
| 21:28.06 | mheath | Anyone happen to have an AGP graphics card they'd part with for cheap? (Rage 128 or the like) |
| 21:28.46 | mheath | Or, better yet... |
| 21:28.59 | mheath | A processor + Motherboard they'd part with for cheap. > 1GHz. |
| 21:29.27 | elg | hooked on phonics consistently works for... |
| 21:29.30 | levi | mheath: I have a processor + motherboard I'd part with. Unfortunately, some part of the system doesn't work, and I suspect it's the motherboard. |
| 21:30.25 | mheath | Not what I'm looking for, then. |
| 21:30.51 | levi | I have a whole eMac that I'm trying to sell, though. |
| 21:31.06 | mheath | levi, I'm really looking for something I can game with, though =\ |
| 21:31.31 | levi | Can't help you there. |
| 21:31.38 | mheath | Nothing big |
| 21:31.45 | mheath | I just played a few things on our 1Ghz windows maching |
| 21:31.47 | mheath | Machine* |
| 21:31.52 | mheath | but it just died on us |
| 21:32.06 | mheath | and my dad isn't putting much enthusiasm into fixing it |
| 21:33.09 | RyanE | mheath: Windows XP |
| 21:33.10 | RyanE | ? |
| 21:33.35 | RyanE | good luck replacing the mobo and having an OEM copy of XP still work... |
| 21:33.40 | levi | You can get a new mb, cpu, and ram from PC Club for a reasonable price. I think I paid ~$200 |
| 21:37.37 | mheath | RyanE, not OEM |
| 21:38.24 | mheath | RyanE, what are you talking about, though? I worked in a computer retail store for a while...we had OEM copies of XP SP2, and we used the same one for every machine |
| 21:38.29 | mheath | just varied the CD Key |
| 21:38.44 | RyanE | depends on the OEM. |
| 21:38.55 | mheath | Used CD-KEYs from other copies, too. Worked fine |
| 21:38.55 | RyanE | i.e. if you buy a Dell, that OEM version is locked to the machine. |
| 21:39.12 | mheath | IE, someone brings in their computer but only has an SP1 disk, we'd install using our SP2 disk and their key |
| 21:39.17 | mheath | RyanE, Blah, its not a Dell |
| 21:39.27 | mheath | It's just sad.....this used to be a *really* nice computer |
| 21:39.46 | mheath | It was a state of the art $2,000 computer when we bought it |
| 21:40.13 | mheath | Fast, lots of RAM, huge hard disk for the time....Vidoe in, out, TV Tuner, DVD... |
| 21:40.34 | mheath | That was a loooong time ago, though. Heh, even the 1ghz celeron was an upgrade. |
| 21:41.16 | mheath | I guess I should go run some tests on this hardware |
| 21:41.33 | mheath | *sigh* I'm too lazy to go and shuffle all this hardware around. |
| 21:46.30 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@208.187.198.66) |
| 21:56.28 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 21:56.29 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See openclue.org/ut, sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com, utaug.org || Tickets/Info for X-Men 3 coming soon || goozbach now has his own banana republic |
| 21:56.29 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 21:57.15 | goozbach | run for it |
| 21:59.49 | sjansen | ~chase goozbach |
| 21:59.51 | ibot | ACTION chases goozbach |
| 22:00.30 | findlay | ~drool goozbach |
| 22:01.00 | findlay | ~shakespeare ibot |
| 22:01.01 | ibot | ACTION stands up and quotes Shakespeare: ibot - ibot's brain is as dry as the remainder biscuit after a voyage. |
| 22:01.17 | findlay | yea |
| 22:08.06 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (n=dataw0lf@70.103.239.58) |
| 22:11.27 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 22:11.27 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 22:12.43 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-67-169-251-185.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:14.47 | goozbach | ~shakespeare boom |
| 22:14.49 | ibot | ACTION stands up and quotes Shakespeare: boom - Thou tottering pottle-deep moldwarp! |
| 22:16.06 | goozbach | ~shakespeare sjansen |
| 22:16.07 | ibot | ACTION stands up and quotes Shakespeare: sjansen - sjansen's brain is as dry as the remainder biscuit after a voyage. |
| 22:17.04 | maquis | ~shakespeare goozbach |
| 22:17.06 | ibot | ACTION stands up and quotes Shakespeare: goozbach - Thou tottering pottle-deep moldwarp! |
| 22:19.45 | goozbach | level 59!!! |
| 22:19.46 | goozbach | woot |
| 22:25.03 | levi | What, is that a new Web2.0 site? |
| 22:26.28 | lars-ut | http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml?cpg=28H |
| 22:26.30 | brac | [ThinkGeek :: Buzzaire - Metered Dose Caffeine Inhaler] |
| 22:28.16 | levi | Yow. |
| 22:29.03 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:29.13 | nick125 | http://www.lasikathome.com/index.html < they are taking this whole "do it at home" stuff way too far |
| 22:29.13 | levi | Hah, that 'PS3 Now Shipping' graphic is evil. |
| 22:29.15 | brac | [LASIK@Home] |
| 22:30.56 | levi | Hah, nice way to get google ad revenue. |
| 22:32.21 | nick125 | haha, yeah, I noticed that too.. |
| 22:32.58 | nick125 | must be too scared to try it on himself.. |
| 22:33.00 | maquis | sjansen: too bad |
| 22:33.26 | sjansen | ~brain maquis |
| 22:33.28 | ibot | ACTION turns maquis into a mouse with an over-sized head |
| 22:33.42 | levi | I wonder how long until someone really makes a caffeine inhaler. |
| 22:49.16 | *** join/#utah WoodsDog (n=woodsdog@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 23:03.15 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 23:03.20 | ScytheBlade1 | I just got an e-mail from my work |
| 23:03.25 | ScytheBlade1 | "Can you please block the IP address for MY SPACE.com. Apparently some people are spending company time (half the day) on it." |
| 23:07.57 | atoponce | ScytheBlade1: where do you work? |
| 23:08.06 | ScytheBlade1 | My dad's law firm |
| 23:08.25 | atoponce | a law firm, and people are on myspace.com? interesting. |
| 23:08.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Small business. |
| 23:08.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Real estate |
| 23:08.46 | ScytheBlade1 | The managers are also the business owners |
| 23:08.49 | atoponce | still, doesn't myspace cater to teen? |
| 23:08.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Not exclusively |
| 23:08.55 | atoponce | s/teen/teens |
| 23:09.10 | ScytheBlade1 | I've found people from 10 to 40 listed on it |
| 23:09.26 | ScytheBlade1 | They don't employ anyone under 21 iirc there (me exempt) |
| 23:09.27 | atoponce | hmm. that's odd to me. all i ever hear are teenagers talking about i |
| 23:09.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh, certaintly |
| 23:09.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Don't get me wrong, it's "all the craze" |
| 23:09.56 | atoponce | so i find it odd that adults use it. that's all |
| 23:10.02 | ScytheBlade1 | It may be teen dominated, but it's by no means teen exclusive ;) |
| 23:10.22 | atoponce | it's like a 40 year old sending pictures via cell phone |
| 23:10.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Scoble has blogged about it, and how he enjoys it |
| 23:10.24 | atoponce | just weird |
| 23:10.54 | atoponce | scoble is an odd duck in itself |
| 23:11.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Fair enough, haha |
| 23:11.05 | atoponce | ;) |
| 23:11.17 | ScytheBlade1 | Hard to beat that logic |
| 23:11.42 | atoponce | personally, i think he is overrated |
| 23:11.43 | findlay | as a rule sjansen avoids MY SPACE.COM |
| 23:12.00 | atoponce | the only reason he gets the traffic he does is becuase he puts like 10 posts per day up |
| 23:13.05 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@azza.com) |
| 23:13.36 | findlay | I admit, though, the term "my" had enough evil connotation long before my space came along |
| 23:15.37 | findlay | what if everybody in the world went to sleep right now and in 5 minutes woke up to find that everything that once disgustingly used 'my' now said 'your' |
| 23:16.13 | findlay | like 'Your Documents', 'YourSQL', etc. |
| 23:16.21 | atoponce | don't forget "in the bathub" afterwards |
| 23:16.39 | atoponce | :) |
| 23:16.47 | findlay | I don't get it |
| 23:16.58 | atoponce | didn't you ever do that with songs? |
| 23:17.06 | findlay | no |
| 23:17.08 | atoponce | popular songs, or hymns? |
| 23:17.13 | atoponce | ahh, then nm |
| 23:17.45 | atoponce | as kids, we would put that phrase at the end of the chorus on songs |
| 23:17.47 | *** join/#utah RyanE (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 23:18.03 | atoponce | so "we will rock you" by queen would be "we will rock you in the bathtub" |
| 23:18.04 | findlay | as a rule I avoid music when pop* is used to describe it |
| 23:18.05 | atoponce | etc |
| 23:18.41 | findlay | so any random prepositional phrase would work |
| 23:18.43 | atoponce | am i the only one here that played this game as a youth? |
| 23:18.47 | atoponce | yup |
| 23:19.12 | tensai | atoponce: yes |
| 23:19.37 | findlay | the only prefix worse than 'my' is 'Win' |
| 23:19.39 | ScytheBlade1 | Digg.com scares me |
| 23:19.43 | ScytheBlade1 | "Do it yourself Lasik" |
| 23:19.45 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.lasikathome.com/ |
| 23:19.46 | brac | [LASIK@Home] |
| 23:20.12 | findlay | and then there's 'i' which is just plain passe and overused |
| 23:21.04 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=Hhhhhhhh@158.91.201.220) |
| 23:21.21 | ScytheBlade1 | lol http://www.lasikathome.com/images/four%20easy%20steps.jpg |
| 23:23.19 | tensai | that's a hoax or my name is emcnabb |
| 23:23.30 | tensai | and rest assured, I don't want that to be true. *shudder* |
| 23:27.12 | findlay | ~emcnabb |
| 23:27.14 | ibot | [emcnabb] a 14|\/|3|2, or a closet windows user |
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