| 00:00.04 | elg | levi: in this talk he seems to believe that you can generally prove programs correct if you try hard enough |
| 00:00.22 | elg | and yet I know of many people whose entire field of research is trying to prove programs correct or not |
| 00:00.35 | Peregrine | elg: Please degine "he". |
| 00:00.40 | elg | djikstra |
| 00:00.46 | elg | in the talk levi linked to |
| 00:00.46 | Peregrine | Thanks :) . |
| 00:00.48 | elg | -urls |
| 00:00.49 | brac | [2006/03/21 15:56:33] <levi> http://www.idi.ntnu.no/emner/dif8916/denning.pdf |
| 00:00.49 | brac | [2006/03/21 15:50:44] <levi> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1036.PDF |
| 00:00.49 | brac | [2006/03/21 15:06:31] <lars-ut> http://www.osdl.org/lab_activities/carrier_grade_linux |
| 00:00.49 | brac | [2006/03/21 14:59:37] <ibot> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/, |
| 00:00.55 | elg | the secondone |
| 00:01.04 | elg | on page 28 |
| 00:01.08 | levi | elg: Yes, and that's the part that people tend to disagree with. Formal methods are kind of a niche these days. |
| 00:02.55 | levi | elg: The crux of his whole argument in that talk is that you can generally prove programs correct, or at least that you should be able to. If that is not true, then the rest of his arguments hold little water. |
| 00:03.56 | levi | It's nearly impossible to prove a C program correct, because C has such a complex and poorly-defined semantic model. I believe there have been some rigorous semantic models of it, but I believe they're too complex to be of much use. |
| 00:05.27 | levi | The task is much more tractable with a language with a simple and clearly defined semantics. |
| 00:05.31 | findlay | I'm an IRC bot and I'm correct ... wait, let me think, ... yeah I'm always correct or a turnip |
| 00:06.08 | elg | well if C is so nebulous then this pseudocode in my algorithms book is hopeless, yet we're proving correctness of those algorithms and finding running time from them |
| 00:06.51 | elg | i can see some deep dark corners of c being troublesome, but wouldn't most C programs be easy enough to reason about? |
| 00:06.54 | levi | I said C, not some C-like pseudocode in an example |
| 00:07.07 | elg | but the pseudocode is even less well-definied |
| 00:07.37 | levi | But you don't have to use it to reason about all programs written in that language, just the example. |
| 00:08.14 | levi | You develop a model of the specific instance being illustrated, and make a proof based on that. |
| 00:09.31 | levi | It's easy to write programs in pretty much any language that can be easily reasoned about. The trick is being able to reason about an arbitrary program in a given language. |
| 00:11.47 | levi | If you write programs in C that are easy to reason about, you are effectively writing in a subset of C with a well-defined semantic model, regardless of whether you rigorously define that subset. Not defining that subset means that, given arbitrary C code, you will be unable to decide if you can effectively reason about it. |
| 00:12.23 | levi | Am I making sense, or am I spouting bogosity? |
| 00:12.41 | elg | that makes sense |
| 00:13.41 | elg | but is automatic proving of programs in some semantically well-defined language easy then, or is it still hard? |
| 00:13.59 | elg | I don't know since I can't remember what exactly it was that was hard about it |
| 00:14.22 | levi | Well, automatic proving of anything gets difficult quickly. |
| 00:14.36 | levi | It's a hard problem. |
| 00:15.08 | findlay | 4 color problem |
| 00:15.29 | elg | 10 mouse problem |
| 00:16.23 | levi | Compilers regularly prove things about about your programs based on type information. |
| 00:16.25 | elg | i guess it was that automatic part then. so dijkstra's saying we should teach people to reason formally when they write programs |
| 00:16.48 | levi | Yes, I think that's what Dijkstra's saying. |
| 00:16.54 | findlay | ~wiki four color theorem |
| 00:16.57 | elg | i think there's merit to that |
| 00:17.03 | levi | Me too. |
| 00:17.42 | findlay | I think that's the kernel of any scientific work |
| 00:17.58 | levi | But my BYU classes didn't get much beyond a week or so of proving simple things about simple loops. |
| 00:18.21 | levi | With the explanation that it's hopeless to even try to prove anything more complicated. |
| 00:18.35 | elg | i think it's better to have it worked out formally or semi-formally in your head (and on paper) than to program with a shotgun and then write a whole bunch of unit tests to "get the bugs out" |
| 00:18.47 | levi | And that the formal methods guys were basically wrong and we should ignore all that. |
| 00:18.51 | elg | tests are still going to be good at keeping the bugs out, and catching typos |
| 00:19.20 | levi | At least that's the impression that I got. |
| 00:19.40 | elg | i never got the feeling that they thought it was hopeless, just too tedious |
| 00:19.59 | elg | and frankly, writing rigorous loop invariant statements in english is tedious |
| 00:20.04 | elg | but if you can keep english out of the loop... |
| 00:20.06 | levi | Well, it's hopeless /because/ it's tedious. :) |
| 00:21.19 | elg | i think part of dijkstra's point was that we should learn the language of computers for itself and not always have to translate back into english |
| 00:21.36 | elg | so then we can say this program does what it says it does, because well that's what it says it does |
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| 00:21.58 | levi | Right; given a formal specification, we can prove that it meets that specification. |
| 00:22.13 | levi | Coming up with formal specifications for programs is another difficult problem. |
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| 00:22.55 | elg | and when users are involved, coming up with specifications of any kind is a difficult problem. :) |
| 00:23.11 | jsmith-away | elg: Especiallly detailed ones. |
| 00:23.14 | levi | I think a lot of work lately has been done in proving that programs are 'safe' rather than 'correct'. |
| 00:23.39 | elg | well, that's just applying a less restrictive specification |
| 00:25.04 | levi | Perhaps, but it is at least much easier to determine. |
| 00:25.12 | lars-ut | any sllug leadership in here? |
| 00:25.42 | levi | And it gives you some significant benefits, too. |
| 00:25.53 | jsmith-away | lars-ut: Didn't you hear my earlier zinger? |
| 00:26.32 | levi | The Singularity OS research at Microsoft is interesting in its approach. |
| 00:26.44 | lars-ut | u-u-d-d-l-l-r-r... |
| 00:30.43 | xbmodder_lappy | udlr? |
| 00:33.07 | findlay | ~rot13 udlr |
| 00:33.07 | ibot | hqye |
| 00:33.20 | findlay | hqye!!@! |
| 00:34.25 | xbmodder_lappy | ~rot13 findlay |
| 00:34.25 | ibot | svaqynl |
| 00:36.31 | levi | u-u-d-d-l-r-l-r-b-a-start |
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| 00:53.17 | Bradipo | Ok vi gurus... is it possible to include a yanked character in a %s or %g? |
| 00:53.35 | xbmodder_lappy | ~lart vi |
| 00:53.45 | xbmodder_lappy | ~vi |
| 00:53.46 | ibot | extra, extra, read all about it, vi is the best text editor in the world. |
| 00:53.47 | xbmodder_lappy | ~emacs |
| 00:53.48 | ibot | extra, extra, read all about it, emacs is as useless as vim if you don't wanna learn it |
| 00:54.43 | Bradipo | i.e., yank a character from a line and then do something like: %s/\p/blah/ where \p would be the result of a p command (dumping the contents of the yank). |
| 00:54.45 | findlay | ~vim |
| 00:54.47 | ibot | extra, extra, read all about it, vim is better than emacs |
| 00:55.01 | findlay | Bradipo: good question |
| 00:55.12 | Bradipo | The only reason why I ask is because this is vim on windows. |
| 00:55.28 | Bradipo | And apparently it doesn't support \x for hexadecimal characters. |
| 00:55.35 | Bradipo | And the character is a non-printable one. |
| 00:56.26 | Peregrine | ~lart gvim on windows |
| 00:56.38 | Bradipo | ~lart windows |
| 00:57.54 | Bradipo | Or maybe it isn't \x that I want... |
| 00:58.55 | elg | Bradipo: c-v u hex code |
| 00:59.05 | elg | see :help utf-8-typing |
| 00:59.17 | Bradipo | Is there an ascii version? |
| 00:59.29 | elg | ascii is a subset of utf-8 |
| 00:59.58 | Bradipo | ctrl-v on Windows is paste... |
| 01:00.04 | Bradipo | I already tried that. :-) |
| 01:00.11 | elg | your vim is in screwed-over mode then |
| 01:00.30 | Bradipo | THat's possible. |
| 01:00.38 | elg | :he ctrl-v-alternative |
| 01:00.40 | Bradipo | I rarely use Windows, and vim on windows much less... |
| 01:01.12 | elg | if this is your vim, you're better off just de-windowsifying your vimrc |
| 01:01.19 | Bradipo | elg: Sweet, looks like ctrl-g is the ``alternative'' |
| 01:01.40 | Bradipo | And just where is ~/.vimrc on Winders? :-) |
| 01:01.46 | Peregrine | Copy the file to a non-Windows box, make your edits then copy it back. |
| 01:01.53 | elg | _vimrc |
| 01:02.05 | elg | in whatever might be considered your home directory or the vim directory |
| 01:02.06 | findlay | Bradipo: c:/Program\ Files/gvim |
| 01:02.10 | elg | e.g. where you installed vim |
| 01:02.12 | Bradipo | lol, ctrl-g just inserts the ^G character. |
| 01:02.12 | findlay | somewhere in there, iirc |
| 01:02.31 | Bradipo | Alright, let me find it... |
| 01:02.44 | elg | my vim says the alternative is ctrl-q |
| 01:03.01 | findlay | ~curse windows |
| 01:03.02 | ibot | May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, windows ! |
| 01:03.04 | Bradipo | Oh doh, that's what I read too. |
| 01:03.12 | Bradipo | Just a bit of dilsexia. |
| 01:03.44 | Bradipo | ctrl-q is normally used for disabling scroll lock, but what the heck. |
| 01:04.15 | elg | yeah, not an issue in a windows gvim session |
| 01:04.32 | Bradipo | Sweet. That looks like it will work. |
| 01:04.38 | elg | and ga in command mode will tell you what the hex code of a character is |
| 01:04.54 | Bradipo | Not unless you are ssh'd into a Windows box. :-) |
| 01:05.14 | Bradipo | But then, I don't even know if vim will run from an sshd session to Windows. |
| 01:05.25 | Bradipo | Yeah, I know what the hex character is thanks to ga. |
| 01:05.29 | elg | there's a terminal version |
| 01:05.34 | Bradipo | I just couldn't figure out how to make ctrl-v character work. |
| 01:05.36 | Peregrine | Well, later all. |
| 01:05.41 | elg | but the source mswin.vim is probably in the gvimrc |
| 01:05.46 | Bradipo | Peregrine: I thought of copying them... |
| 01:06.58 | Bradipo | elg: Thanks. I guess I should use vim on Windows more often... |
| 01:07.54 | elg | i don't know about _that_. :) |
| 01:12.49 | goozbach | vim is the only reason I EVER help people with their windows machines |
| 01:31.37 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
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| 01:42.40 | goozbach | cool |
| 01:42.48 | goozbach | "what is your problem?" |
| 01:42.59 | goozbach | A: "Blah blah blah windows blah" |
| 01:43.19 | goozbach | Response: "ohh, download and install linux" |
| 01:48.02 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 01:48.24 | xbmodder_lappy | A: How do I do that using AOL 9.0? |
| 01:50.49 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@65.73.113.199) |
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| 03:27.28 | utah_prole | What is a good program for viewing .mov videos when using a Gnome desktop? And also is playback of H.264 encoded videos possible on linux yet? |
| 03:27.47 | spr | I do believe mplayer can do both. |
| 03:29.22 | utah_prole | ok, I'll have to try that. VLC doesn't seem to work on this particular .mov I have- not sure if its using H.264 though |
| 03:29.42 | xbmodder_lappy | mplayer |
| 03:32.32 | nick125 | c = ['r','e','y','a','l','p','m']; c.reverse(); "".join(c) |
| 03:34.13 | amcnabb | I've had lots of problems with VLC. |
| 03:34.28 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125, ... |
| 03:35.16 | nick125 | it took me a good 20 seconds to write that code too! |
| 03:51.36 | mheath | nick125: What language is that? O.o |
| 03:51.40 | nick125 | python |
| 03:52.02 | mheath | Ugh! I thought python was a pretty language. I was always told it was pretty clean symantically. |
| 03:52.13 | nick125 | It is.. |
| 03:52.21 | nick125 | But, not when I'm coding it. |
| 03:52.29 | nick125 | I was also trying to fit it into one line too |
| 03:52.29 | mheath | Thats like.....a bad union of C's string handling and Java's. |
| 03:53.02 | mheath | Native symantic support support without really differentiating Strings as objects |
| 03:53.16 | nick125 | I wish python had C/C++/Java/C#/etc's brackets instead of using retarded whitespace.. |
| 03:53.40 | xbmodder_lappy | Yeah |
| 03:53.46 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125, That _really_ bugs me |
| 03:53.55 | mheath | nick125: What does "".join(c) do? |
| 03:54.17 | nick125 | takes an array and forms it into a string, using "" as a seperator |
| 03:54.17 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd *guess* that it concats c to "" |
| 03:54.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Or that |
| 03:55.13 | mheath | .... |
| 03:55.18 | mheath | O.o |
| 03:55.21 | mheath | this makes no sense |
| 03:55.50 | nick125 | >>> print string.join.__doc__ |
| 03:55.51 | nick125 | join(list [,sep]) -> string |
| 03:55.51 | nick125 | Return a string composed of the words in list, with intervening occurrences of sep. The default separator is a single space. |
| 03:55.57 | levi | mheath: I'm sorry your powers of reasoning are so weak. :P |
| 03:56.03 | mheath | Why the array representation of the string, if it can support strings directly in its syntax? |
| 03:56.27 | levi | It was not an array representation of a string. |
| 03:56.28 | maquis | ~curse python |
| 03:56.29 | ibot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, python ! |
| 03:56.30 | mheath | I mean, you can use "".join(). Why can't I just do "mplayer" or "reyalpm" |
| 03:56.30 | nick125 | mheath: I did it so I could use .reverse().. |
| 03:56.37 | nick125 | mheath: You can.. |
| 03:56.49 | nick125 | I just used an array to make it take a little more time to figure out :) |
| 03:56.52 | levi | mheath: It was a line of toy code, not some Python idiom. |
| 03:57.00 | mheath | Oh, I see, this is just obfuscated code. OK. |
| 03:57.33 | mheath | brb, need to make a head call. |
| 03:57.35 | maquis | nick125: if you want to play with python, you're welcome to implement tcp in it.... |
| 03:57.56 | levi | maquis: Do you have to implement tcp in python? |
| 03:57.57 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, he was going to write a new protocol in it |
| 03:58.10 | nick125 | import socket; s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM); s.connect((host, port)) |
| 03:58.14 | maquis | levi: yeah... i'm getting pretty far, but it's rather ugly |
| 03:58.24 | maquis | we don't have to do congestion control |
| 03:58.37 | maquis | but i'm having some issues with figuring out what i'm trying to do here... |
| 03:58.56 | levi | If it's ugly, you're probably doing it the wrong way. ;) |
| 03:59.04 | nick125 | Exactly.. |
| 03:59.05 | maquis | levi: i don't doubt that |
| 03:59.17 | nick125 | That's why none of my code goes anywhere. |
| 03:59.36 | nick125 | Eventually it looks as ugly as sin, so, I decide to rewrite.. |
| 03:59.46 | nick125 | rinse, re-apply, and repeat |
| 04:01.21 | xbmodder_lappy | and then, there is my code! |
| 04:01.32 | nick125 | Which is a total freaking horrible hack. |
| 04:01.40 | xbmodder_lappy | it is beautiful |
| 04:01.58 | nick125 | To a guy ran over by a street paver maybe |
| 04:02.02 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 04:02.06 | xbmodder_lappy | its like |
| 04:02.24 | nick125 | horrible, digusting, disgrace |
| 04:02.27 | nick125 | any of those? |
| 04:02.58 | nick125 | my code gets 5.00 in pylint |
| 04:03.05 | nick125 | yours gets like..-10.45 |
| 04:03.07 | nick125 | out of 10.00 |
| 04:03.19 | xbmodder_lappy | no grade.. |
| 04:03.37 | xbmodder_lappy | thats not too bad: |
| 04:03.38 | xbmodder_lappy | Your code has been rated at -0.67/10 |
| 04:03.40 | xbmodder_lappy | :-) |
| 04:04.04 | nick125 | and my code.. |
| 04:04.04 | nick125 | Global evaluation |
| 04:04.04 | nick125 | ----------------- |
| 04:04.05 | nick125 | Your code has been rated at 9.05/10 |
| 04:04.34 | nick125 | :D |
| 04:05.51 | ScytheBlade1 | show off |
| 04:05.51 | ScytheBlade1 | ;) |
| 04:05.59 | nick125 | of course |
| 04:06.00 | nick125 | :) |
| 04:06.11 | nick125 | which code which you rather have? |
| 04:06.22 | nick125 | grade f or grade a? |
| 04:06.32 | xbmodder_lappy | i like closer to you |
| 04:08.37 | maquis | pylint? |
| 04:10.59 | xbmodder_lappy | live |
| 04:11.35 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@host-73.colo.spiretech.com) |
| 04:13.16 | xbmodder_lappy | keep the flame war alive |
| 04:18.26 | maquis | hmmm... looks like pylint expects 4 space tabs? |
| 04:18.44 | nick125 | you can configure that |
| 04:18.48 | nick125 | I like tabs :P |
| 04:19.15 | nick125 | http://selene.tfkyle.dyndns.org/~kyle/Temp/.pylintrc < i stole that guys pylintrc, put it in /etc/pylintrc |
| 04:21.54 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 04:28.39 | xbmodder_lappy | I need to destress |
| 04:28.41 | xbmodder_lappy | Wtf. |
| 04:28.43 | xbmodder_lappy | internet.. |
| 04:28.45 | xbmodder_lappy | down |
| 04:28.49 | xbmodder_lappy | FRIGGGGGG! |
| 04:28.54 | maquis | erm... |
| 04:28.59 | maquis | i don't think your inernet is down |
| 04:29.05 | maquis | er |
| 04:29.11 | maquis | s/inernet/internet/ |
| 04:29.24 | maquis | stupid ibot |
| 04:29.52 | xbmodder_lappy | it might be... |
| 04:30.07 | xbmodder_lappy | well the other link |
| 04:30.44 | ScytheBlade1 | Heh |
| 04:31.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Anyone in here know how Elder Scrolls: Oblivion was released today? (game) |
| 04:31.16 | maquis | Your code has been rated at 3.91/10 <-- not too bad for a n00b who uses 2-space indentations and such, i hope |
| 04:37.51 | mheath | Our Schools network admins are morons |
| 04:38.02 | mheath | They added a new acceptable use policy agreemnt on the login screen. You have to lick "Accept" before it will let you login |
| 04:38.11 | ScytheBlade1 | lick? |
| 04:38.11 | mheath | However, we discovered today that one can edit (locally, temporarily) this license agreement quite easily. |
| 04:38.27 | ScytheBlade1 | That's pretty bad |
| 04:38.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Licking the screen |
| 04:38.41 | mheath | ... |
| 04:38.45 | ScytheBlade1 | ;) |
| 04:38.50 | ScytheBlade1 | "You have to lick "Accept" before" |
| 04:38.58 | mheath | They also managed to mess up the image |
| 04:39.02 | ScytheBlade1 | I can't imagine the disease involved |
| 04:39.34 | mheath | They were having unbelievably bad login problems. It took 10-20 minutes to login to these machines! And they'd randomly reboot! |
| 04:39.46 | mheath | So, after a year of doing this, they finally decide to reimage these machines with a fresh install |
| 04:40.13 | mheath | What do they do? Install outdated (by 4-5 years) versions of all the most important software for my classes. |
| 04:40.23 | mheath | Accidentally |
| 04:40.48 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm still at the "imaging" part |
| 04:40.57 | ScytheBlade1 | I know there's proper ways to do it, but my school uses Altris Client |
| 04:41.02 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: .....They do, too. |
| 04:41.05 | ScytheBlade1 | haha |
| 04:41.06 | mheath | Its still imaging it. |
| 04:41.07 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm sorry |
| 04:41.13 | ScytheBlade1 | Know why it's sooooooooo slow? |
| 04:41.21 | ScytheBlade1 | I got bored and decided to find out |
| 04:41.26 | mheath | You know, I always heard bad things about Dreamweaver |
| 04:41.28 | mheath | That it was bad |
| 04:41.33 | ScytheBlade1 | It transmits the image, times every client |
| 04:41.37 | ScytheBlade1 | To the broadcast address |
| 04:41.37 | mheath | I started working with it in my web dev class, though, and I was mildly impressed |
| 04:41.47 | mheath | Until they installed this older, outdated version =\ |
| 04:42.05 | ScytheBlade1 | I fired up ethereal, and caught a few norton .dll's |
| 04:42.14 | mheath | Wow |
| 04:42.18 | ScytheBlade1 | It was entertaining watching the hard disk be sent to the broadcast address |
| 04:42.26 | ScytheBlade1 | It also explains why the internet died during that day |
| 04:42.37 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=Hhhhhhhh@158.91.201.220) |
| 04:42.56 | mheath | I was trying to use this old version of Dreamweaver in class |
| 04:43.08 | ScytheBlade1 | Old versions of DW are scary |
| 04:43.10 | mheath | First, it removed by DTD declaration that the page was XHTML compliant |
| 04:43.11 | goozbach | http://sauerbraten.org/ |
| 04:43.12 | brac | [SAUERBRATEN! JAWOHL!] |
| 04:43.13 | goozbach | cool |
| 04:43.17 | Hhhhh | dreamweaver is nice |
| 04:43.33 | ScytheBlade1 | Newer versions are |
| 04:43.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Stricly because they can work with files over webdav |
| 04:43.45 | mheath | Hhhhh: the current version is pretty good. Our tech staff screwed up and installed a 6 year old version. Dreamweaver 4. |
| 04:43.47 | ScytheBlade1 | *Strictly |
| 04:44.15 | xbmodder_lappy | oooh |
| 04:44.17 | mheath | It started complaining that my XHTML 1.0 Strict webpage wasn't an XML file. |
| 04:44.54 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 04:45.10 | mheath | And at one point it decided to start inserting random characters into my file |
| 04:45.34 | mheath | Half my navigation's list was replaced by nondisplayable characters (just showed up as boxes, or Japanese in my browser) |
| 04:46.15 | mheath | Then, don't even get me started on its page rendering |
| 04:46.26 | mheath | The design view was worthless as even a crude preview |
| 04:46.41 | mheath | it doesn't support the "display: inline;" CSS attribute |
| 04:46.56 | mheath | Or the floats and clears |
| 04:47.38 | tensai | ~lart rj11 4 pin connectors |
| 04:49.29 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, that's why they invented code view (the only view worth using) |
| 04:51.41 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: As I said, it started replacing vital components of my code (XHTML strict DTD), inserting nonsensical character combinations, and complaining about perfectly valid bits of code. |
| 04:51.56 | ScytheBlade1 | Wait... in the code view? |
| 04:52.10 | mheath | Yes. |
| 04:52.37 | ScytheBlade1 | ......wow |
| 04:53.27 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 04:58.10 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=Hhhhhhhh@158.91.201.220) |
| 05:10.56 | QBFreak | tensai: why do you hate them so much? :) |
| 05:11.23 | tensai | because I need 6 pins but all I have is 4 |
| 05:11.56 | QBFreak | ah |
| 05:12.10 | QBFreak | it's even more fun when you go to hook up a two-line phone and they only put a single pair of wire in the cord |
| 05:13.16 | tensai | kinda like when I just tried to hook up a PoE device with a 2 pair rj45... grr. why only do 2 pairs? I don't get it. |
| 05:14.07 | QBFreak | because they were cheap |
| 05:14.15 | QBFreak | my crossover adapter only has two pair |
| 05:15.00 | tensai | this cat5 has all four pairs. there's no good reason. somebody was lazy. |
| 05:15.18 | QBFreak | most (all?) of my cables do have all four pairs |
| 05:20.31 | tensai | PoE is pretty cool. the radios we use are all PoE. A little wall wart cross connects the radio to the computer and injects power just to the radio. Just don't get those plugs backwards. :) |
| 05:21.28 | tensai | makes it a lot easier to put a radio (AP or otherwise) in hard to reach places. just have to make a single cat5 run. |
| 05:22.12 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@63-230-19-218.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 05:22.43 | QBFreak | cool |
| 05:23.23 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@205.208.239.165) |
| 05:26.50 | utah_prole | Tensai, what kind of radios do you use? |
| 05:27.02 | xbmodder_lappy | why don't we use fiber |
| 05:27.09 | tensai | utah_prole: motorolla canopy |
| 05:27.13 | QBFreak | who wants to type up bug reports for me? |
| 05:27.14 | xbmodder_lappy | then one little tube is like equal to one million pairs |
| 05:27.28 | utah_prole | is that the 802.16 stuff? |
| 05:29.53 | tensai | never heard of 802.16, but I don't know all the details of the canopies. I know it runs in 900, 2.4 and 5.7, but isn't 802.11. |
| 05:30.10 | utah_prole | or maybe the canopy line just includes 802.16... I could have sworn I've heard it for .16 |
| 05:30.34 | utah_prole | ah, ok, maybe that's why I understand it as non-standard wifi |
| 05:30.40 | tensai | we also do 802.11 but interference is killer. canopy will blast 802.11 (and pretty much everything else) off the air. works great for us. :) |
| 05:31.19 | utah_prole | gotcha |
| 05:32.22 | utah_prole | for 802.11 my company uses an AP by Colubris, which runs linux. Cool little device, big feature set for relatively cheap. |
| 05:32.58 | tensai | canopy runs freebsd |
| 05:33.20 | *** join/#utah ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 05:33.23 | utah_prole | cool, I like |
| 05:33.28 | tensai | ~dslam |
| 05:33.44 | tensai | ~dict dslam |
| 05:35.02 | utah_prole | so wait, do you have to have special client adapters for canopy radios? if it's not 802.11, you'd probably have to, right? |
| 05:35.39 | tensai | yes, AP and subscriber module (SM) are custom jobs. |
| 05:36.22 | tensai | http://www.luxus.cz/obchod_pic/5700_ap___canopy_ap_module_2-4.jpg |
| 05:36.31 | tensai | brac: don't choke! |
| 05:36.48 | elg | -lart tensai |
| 05:37.03 | utah_prole | thats a client adapter? |
| 05:37.11 | tensai | elg: does brac ignore anything other than text/* yet? |
| 05:37.42 | elg | i can't remember, but I think I did something |
| 05:37.45 | elg | I think it was mime-type, yeah |
| 05:37.56 | elg | it would be nice to limit number of bytes too |
| 05:38.07 | tensai | utah_prole: AP and SM look like that, yes |
| 05:38.46 | tensai | backhauls look like this. http://www.data-connect.com/motorola_canopy_300Mb_BH.gif |
| 05:38.51 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@c-24-2-85-20.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:39.00 | tensai | those are used for high bandwidth site to site links |
| 05:39.16 | tensai | beats the pants of paying ${ILEC} for T1s |
| 05:39.21 | tensai | s/of/off/ |
| 05:40.43 | utah_prole | yeah, I'm sure. Actually, I think my company *does* use Canopy for wide-area type stuff, which I assumed was wi-max. I'm just never involved in any of that, hence my confusion |
| 05:40.59 | tensai | canopy requires GPS for timing. that makes it much more reliable than CSMA/CD. |
| 05:42.41 | utah_prole | so instead of a contention based network, communications happens in pre-determinted time slots? |
| 05:43.32 | tensai | yes. and you can assign more time slots for download than upload. |
| 05:43.52 | utah_prole | wow. sounds really cool |
| 05:44.20 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@c-24-2-85-20.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:44.58 | tensai | radios are like $500, but they work reliably. for a wisp, definitely worth it IMHO. |
| 05:46.08 | utah_prole | yeah, that's actually a steal. The colubris radio's I mentioned are about $300, and we also use Cisco 1200's which are something like 3 times that amount |
| 05:48.09 | tensai | ciscos, expensive? nah, I'd never believe it! ;) |
| 05:49.47 | utah_prole | yeah, we have to move up to 1300's to make them *really* useful. I don't even want to know the price of those |
| 05:55.50 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 06:01.08 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@65.73.113.199) |
| 06:01.40 | maquis | Newsome: how's it going? |
| 06:04.15 | Newsome | not too bad |
| 06:04.23 | maquis | cool |
| 06:04.27 | maquis | we miss you around here |
| 06:04.36 | Newsome | anything interesting happening there? |
| 06:04.40 | maquis | not really |
| 06:04.59 | maquis | last i checked, you hadn't been replaced yet... |
| 06:05.14 | maquis | :) |
| 06:05.17 | Newsome | I see that they finally managed to get the job posted. |
| 06:05.35 | maquis | it'll probably be a while before they find someone that fills your shoes :) |
| 06:05.43 | Newsome | heh, right. |
| 06:06.10 | maquis | :) |
| 06:06.26 | Newsome | Notice how the job posting was for the same job, but with a higher job level (and hence higher pay) |
| 06:06.36 | maquis | really? i didn't know that :) |
| 06:07.09 | tensai | Newsome: so apply for it under an assumed name and see if you get it |
| 06:07.13 | maquis | haha |
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| 06:09.09 | Newsome | Notice how I was at the job for 7+ years, and had a Master's degree, but that whoever they hire will start out with a higher pay. |
| 06:09.47 | Newsome | Notice how high I was flying the day I turned in my resignation. |
| 06:10.56 | Newsome | ie: walking on cloud 9, etc. I was so glad to finally be done. |
| 06:11.00 | maquis | oh |
| 06:11.11 | maquis | Newsome: why were you so excited to be done? |
| 06:11.20 | maquis | nick125: :( |
| 06:12.22 | Newsome | I probably sound bitter. I'm not really. It's just that BYU sucked the life out of me for too many years, and I'm glad to move on. |
| 06:12.54 | maquis | Newsome: i think i kinda understand... kinda like how i can't wait to get out of here? |
| 06:13.14 | TheDiff | guess who just got a Dell 2405FPW |
| 06:13.24 | xbmodder_lappy | :-/ |
| 06:13.27 | TheDiff | guess how huge it is |
| 06:13.30 | TheDiff | its HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE |
| 06:13.35 | xbmodder_lappy | what is a dell 2405FPW? |
| 06:13.44 | TheDiff | 24" DELL widescreen monitor |
| 06:14.22 | ScytheBlade1 | They have a 30" out |
| 06:14.28 | ScytheBlade1 | (Or is it 31"? I forget) |
| 06:14.55 | xbmodder_lappy | ooo |
| 06:15.01 | TheDiff | its 30" |
| 06:15.07 | TheDiff | its also $2000 |
| 06:15.09 | Newsome | maquis: Probably something like that. I've just seen a lot more two-faced dealings, seen the professor's faults, etc. than I really needed to see. |
| 06:15.19 | maquis | Newsome: interesting... |
| 06:15.32 | Newsome | Hah. That's nothing. I've got a 36" Flatscreen Timex Wristwatch! |
| 06:16.06 | TheDiff | haha |
| 06:16.15 | TheDiff | Newsome: what were you at BYU for |
| 06:16.23 | TheDiff | school or working |
| 06:16.34 | Newsome | both. |
| 06:16.53 | Newsome | I started as a student in '91 |
| 06:18.00 | TheDiff | Newsome: were you a professor or were you working IT or something |
| 06:18.15 | Newsome | Since '98, I was the sysadmin, etc. for the Computer Science Department |
| 06:18.24 | TheDiff | okay |
| 06:19.47 | TheDiff | what is OIT |
| 06:20.09 | Newsome | Oh, and for anyone who might know him, James Hammer is in my ward. |
| 06:22.22 | maquis | TheDiff: the office of information technology... |
| 06:22.23 | maquis | :) |
| 06:22.25 | Newsome | OIT: well, take your pick from: "Office of Information Technology", "Office of Idiots and Twits", "Obstinate Idiocy Technically", or other friendly terms |
| 06:22.36 | maquis | ooh... those are good |
| 06:22.45 | maquis | office of idiots and twits... |
| 06:22.50 | maquis | that sounds quite appropriate |
| 06:24.08 | Newsome | "Once I Tried" |
| 06:25.47 | maquis | Newsome: i don't think that one's quite true forthem |
| 06:25.56 | maquis | i don't think they always tried once |
| 06:26.14 | TheDiff | yeah... |
| 06:26.22 | Newsome | hmm, looks like Andrew liked my thinly-veiled allusion to Fermat |
| 06:27.39 | Newsome | I wonder how many people just thought I was being confused... |
| 06:28.08 | TheDiff | maquis: are you at BYU or UofU |
| 06:28.11 | TheDiff | or other |
| 06:28.23 | maquis | TheDiff: byu |
| 06:28.41 | Newsome | night, all |
| 06:29.30 | TheDiff | chcgil.. |
| 06:29.31 | TheDiff | hm |
| 06:30.09 | TheDiff | chicago |
| 06:30.15 | TheDiff | that is far from utah |
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| 06:52.02 | TheDiff | maquis: what are you working on |
| 06:53.42 | maquis | TheDiff: networking project |
| 06:53.55 | maquis | i discovered that i was going the wrong direction |
| 06:53.59 | TheDiff | yeah |
| 06:54.11 | TheDiff | have you done sliding windows yet |
| 06:54.51 | maquis | i think i've got how to do that... |
| 06:55.05 | maquis | probably not the "best" way, but a way that does work |
| 06:55.10 | TheDiff | yeah |
| 06:55.25 | TheDiff | well, all I know is that it took me forever to write that program |
| 06:56.32 | TheDiff | and everytime i thought I was done, i wasnt |
| 06:56.40 | TheDiff | yeah :/ |
| 06:56.45 | maquis | it's already overdue |
| 06:57.02 | TheDiff | yeah, mine was too |
| 06:57.06 | TheDiff | by a couple days |
| 08:08.59 | maquis | @#$%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 08:44.41 | TheDiff | maquis: :( |
| 08:50.16 | maquis | TheDiff: yeah |
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| 08:54.11 | maquis | gotta love how some people just have an amazing ability to make a bad situation worse |
| 08:54.54 | TheDiff | aw |
| 09:03.51 | maquis | TheDiff: if you're still here, i pm'd you... |
| 09:04.42 | TheDiff | maquis: ? |
| 09:04.49 | TheDiff | did you get my pms back? |
| 09:05.22 | maquis | no... |
| 09:05.26 | TheDiff | hahaha |
| 09:05.30 | maquis | are you authenticated? |
| 09:05.33 | TheDiff | no |
| 09:05.35 | TheDiff | thats probably why |
| 09:05.39 | TheDiff | i was sending you messages back |
| 09:05.39 | maquis | that would be the problem :) |
| 09:05.41 | TheDiff | you didnt get any of them |
| 09:05.42 | maquis | ah |
| 09:05.44 | maquis | no... |
| 09:05.52 | TheDiff | oh weak |
| 09:06.12 | TheDiff | tahts kind of funny i was having a conversation with myself |
| 09:06.16 | maquis | haha |
| 09:06.22 | maquis | as was i... oh well |
| 09:06.47 | maquis | it annoys me that freenode blocks PMs from people who aren't authenticated |
| 09:07.03 | TheDiff | yeah |
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| 10:15.04 | maquis | -lart elg |
| 10:15.12 | elg | -lart earaches |
| 10:16.33 | maquis | elg: what are you doing up? |
| 10:16.43 | maquis | do you have anearache, or does your son have an earache? |
| 10:16.49 | elg | trying to figure out what to do for my earache |
| 10:17.04 | elg | better me than him |
| 10:17.36 | maquis | how old is he? 2 or 3 -ish? |
| 10:17.56 | elg | year and a half |
| 10:18.09 | maquis | ok |
| 10:18.37 | maquis | you probably wouldn't be getting any more sleep if he had an earache than you are with you having an earache... |
| 10:18.40 | maquis | wow... |
| 10:18.47 | maquis | someone else is up in my apartment |
| 10:21.34 | elg | yeah, and nobody else would sleep either, and he'd be grumpy all day possibly for days |
| 10:22.18 | maquis | :) |
| 10:22.33 | maquis | at least if you're the one with the earache, you're the only one up all night and grumpy :) |
| 10:23.13 | maquis | so, moral of the story is, don't give him the earache :) |
| 10:24.11 | maquis | hehe |
| 10:24.13 | elg | i'll remember that |
| 10:24.15 | maquis | foxtrot is funny |
| 10:25.14 | QBFreak | comics, I knew I was forgetting something |
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| 14:28.28 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=mkling@12.174.37.165) |
| 14:42.33 | graphyx | morning |
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| 14:57.02 | emcnabb | don't do it! |
| 14:57.11 | maquis | emcnabb: i know i shouldn't... |
| 14:57.39 | maquis | but at the same time, i *really* want a bit more sleep :( |
| 15:10.51 | graphyx | Chem 105? |
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| 15:17.20 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 15:49.41 | maquis | graphyx: unfortunately, yes |
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| 16:05.08 | Motoko | Hola |
| 16:09.55 | emcnabb | all of my students just left to have a conference call |
| 16:10.48 | maquis | emcnabb: where are you this week? |
| 16:10.53 | emcnabb | Milwaukee |
| 16:13.18 | maquis | fun |
| 16:13.30 | maquis | hopefully it's not a long conference call |
| 16:13.44 | maquis | or one that's caused by a problem that'll pull them all away to work on stuff |
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| 16:16.07 | harleypig | I've created a blogger.com account. Is there a way I can create a user account that *only* allows sftp and *only* to a specific directory? |
| 16:17.03 | harleypig | I think I can set the home directory to the desired htdocs directory, then chroot the login, but am I making it oo complicated? |
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| 16:33.47 | emcnabb | http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/21/mud.death.ap/index.html |
| 16:33.49 | brac | [CNN.com - Man dies stuck in mud after running from deputies - Mar 22, 2006] |
| 16:34.11 | emcnabb | cleaning out the gene pool, one human at a time |
| 16:34.14 | graphyx | he died in the mud? |
| 16:34.17 | graphyx | wow... |
| 16:34.40 | graphyx | So would that be a chauvanistic pig wallowing in the mud? |
| 16:34.54 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 16:35.32 | Bradipo | What an injustice... a man died because his car registration had expired. |
| 16:36.07 | harleypig | injustice?! He *ran*. It was his fault he ended up where he did. |
| 16:36.31 | graphyx | It would be injustice if he didn't do it to himself. |
| 16:36.53 | graphyx | If they threw him in there, it would be a different thing, |
| 16:37.30 | graphyx | but I find it hard to call suffering from the consequences inposed only by natural elements for something I chose to do myself an injustice. |
| 16:37.43 | Bradipo | harleypig: Yeah, but had they not pursued him for such a trivial thing he wouldn't have died. |
| 16:38.02 | graphyx | so are you proposing that Cops not stop people with expired tags? |
| 16:38.10 | Bradipo | graphyx: I'm not referring to the fact that he ran, I'm referring to the fact that they chased him at all for such a lame reason. |
| 16:38.15 | maquis | Bradipo: if it was such a trivial thing, why'd he run? |
| 16:38.18 | emcnabb | mental note: if I don't want to get in trouble, just run |
| 16:38.19 | Bradipo | graphyx: Yes, I am. |
| 16:38.26 | graphyx | Ok. |
| 16:38.29 | Bradipo | maquis: Don't most people fear the cops? |
| 16:38.33 | graphyx | Just wanted to get your statement clear. |
| 16:38.54 | Motoko | I think they should be stopped and have their license pulled and car impounded |
| 16:38.58 | Bradipo | graphyx: licenses are privileges, since when does a sovereign people need privileges? |
| 16:39.26 | Motoko | I got pulled over for having my headlights off once |
| 16:39.37 | graphyx | That is a different dicsussion. |
| 16:39.39 | Bradipo | Motoko: Again, another injustice. |
| 16:39.56 | graphyx | You have changed the topic from cops pulling people over from beaking the law to why is that law there at all. |
| 16:40.05 | Motoko | a girl I know here had a car smoking, no license insurance or registration, and the cop gave her a warning |
| 16:40.08 | Motoko | plus she was speeding |
| 16:40.09 | emcnabb | Bradipo: why have a law then if it won't be enforced? |
| 16:40.35 | graphyx | so what he really is saying, we shouldn't have to register cars or get licences. |
| 16:40.49 | Bradipo | emcnabb: Clearly we should enforce laws, else why enact them. I'm arguing that certain laws are superfluous, and not necessary. |
| 16:40.51 | emcnabb | should we all be able to drive without our headlights on at night? |
| 16:40.53 | Bradipo | graphyx: Exactly. |
| 16:41.07 | Bradipo | emcnabb: If you so choose, as long as you don't hurt anyone doing so. |
| 16:41.37 | emcnabb | wow, ok |
| 16:41.38 | graphyx | Bradipo: so your statement earlier was that the injustice was the fact that registration and licences are required. |
| 16:41.41 | Motoko | I live in So Utah and down here the law sems to be subjective |
| 16:41.48 | emcnabb | don't vote for Bradipo in a public office |
| 16:41.50 | emcnabb | :) |
| 16:41.58 | Bradipo | graphyx: Yes, and also that they pursued the man to his death because of it. |
| 16:42.19 | emcnabb | about licenses: I'm glad that we limit who can drive |
| 16:42.28 | Bradipo | emcnabb: I doubt you would ever find me running for ``public'' office, so don't bother. |
| 16:42.30 | emcnabb | I know many people who don't have their licenses for good reasons |
| 16:42.31 | graphyx | Bradipo: You are incorrect. they pull the car over, and the man chose to run away into a dangerous situation. |
| 16:43.03 | graphyx | In fact if they hadn't followed him to help him out the outcry of injustice would be larger. |
| 16:43.11 | Bradipo | graphyx: I suppose it can be looked at many different ways. Certainly if he hadn't run, he would still be alive. |
| 16:43.43 | Bradipo | graphyx: In what way? What harm had he done anyone? Had he harmed someones person, or property? Had he taken away someone elses rights? |
| 16:45.11 | Bradipo | "He thought he was wanted. That is why he ran," Peritz said. "But it turns out he wasn't wanted for anything, except his driver's license was expired." |
| 16:45.57 | Bradipo | Apparently, he thought that he had committed something that was worthy of running... |
| 16:46.02 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 16:46.19 | Bradipo | Maybe he was an ``illegal alien'' |
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| 16:46.28 | emcnabb | Bradipo: should people be able to run away from a cop whenever they want? |
| 16:46.29 | Bradipo | And feared he would be deported or something. |
| 16:46.41 | Bradipo | emcnabb: Should cops be able to pull over people whenever they want? |
| 16:46.51 | emcnabb | if they break the law, yes |
| 16:47.16 | Motoko | But some cops are power-whores |
| 16:47.17 | emcnabb | I believe that all cars should be registered |
| 16:47.34 | Motoko | they'll pull you over just because they think your girlfriend is hot |
| 16:47.53 | emcnabb | Motoko: I agree their are cops like that, and they shouldn't do that |
| 16:48.01 | Bradipo | emcnabb: I don't believe they should. What purpose does it serve except to tax the people more? |
| 16:48.05 | emcnabb | but if they were breaking a law, they should |
| 16:48.42 | Bradipo | emcnabb: What good comes of registering the car? |
| 16:49.07 | emcnabb | Bradipo: I don't agree about charging so much for the car registration; but I do think it's important so that if a car is used to do something illegal, it can be traced to the owner |
| 16:49.31 | Bradipo | So, its about being able to trace people? |
| 16:49.41 | emcnabb | partly |
| 16:49.53 | emcnabb | to associate a vehicle with its owner |
| 16:49.55 | Bradipo | I suppose the other part is to keep our roads safe? |
| 16:50.09 | Bradipo | emcnabb: Wait, doesn't a bill of sale associate the vehicle with the owner? |
| 16:50.22 | Bradipo | When I purchase a camera, the transaction proves I own it. |
| 16:50.24 | Bradipo | Not a license. |
| 16:50.34 | Bradipo | Or not a registration. |
| 16:50.38 | Bradipo | And did I buy the car from the state? |
| 16:50.40 | emcnabb | yes, but how can you differenciate between cars? |
| 16:50.53 | emcnabb | a honda civic was used to rob a bank |
| 16:51.15 | emcnabb | if there is a license place on the car they can use that to track the car |
| 16:51.18 | Bradipo | If you have a the title of ownership signed to you by the original owner, does that not differentiate? |
| 16:51.25 | emcnabb | obviously, someone could take it off |
| 16:51.50 | Bradipo | One would be an inconsistent criminal to rob banks with license plates that are tracable. |
| 16:52.18 | emcnabb | but if they were on the way to rob a bank without any plates, they could be pulled over for thta |
| 16:52.20 | Bradipo | If I were going to rob a bank I would go to the dump yard, pick up some old plates and use them. |
| 16:52.21 | emcnabb | that |
| 16:52.36 | levi | As one of my dad's law professors used to say, criminals are stupid. |
| 16:52.47 | emcnabb | Bradipo: I see where you're coming from |
| 16:52.57 | Bradipo | That's just like looking for terrorists in the train stations in New York by randomly picking someone out of the crowd and inspecting their bags. |
| 16:53.05 | emcnabb | it just seems like you're taking it to the extreme |
| 16:53.19 | emcnabb | no transportation laws! |
| 16:53.30 | emcnabb | they're there to supress the people |
| 16:53.36 | levi | emcnabb: Does it surprise you that Bradipo is taking it to the extreme? |
| 16:53.49 | emcnabb | you should be able to drive at whatever speed you want, as long as someone doesn't get hurt |
| 16:53.50 | Bradipo | It wasn't so extreme when the country was founded... |
| 16:53.52 | emcnabb | levi: :-) |
| 16:53.59 | Bradipo | Only now do opinions like mine seem ``extreme'' |
| 16:54.16 | emcnabb | when the country was founded they didn't have vehicles that could go 120 MPH |
| 16:54.26 | emcnabb | obviously, something like that needs to be regulated |
| 16:55.17 | Bradipo | Computers didn't exist back then, much less cyberterrorism, would you also agree that our networks, and computers, should be regulated? |
| 16:55.39 | emcnabb | yes. I don't think people should be able to create and distributed child porn |
| 16:56.04 | emcnabb | I think the regulation should be minimal, but it should be there |
| 16:57.04 | Bradipo | And how are they to enforce it? Are they going to be allowed to sniff everyone's link? |
| 16:57.14 | Bradipo | Monitor everyone's activity? |
| 16:57.28 | emcnabb | no, but they should be able to prosecute you if you do that |
| 16:58.38 | emcnabb | if Joe goes and uploads a bunch of pictures of him raping a child, they should be able to "sniff his link" and confiscate his computer |
| 16:58.47 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce_@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 16:58.47 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 16:59.11 | emcnabb | they need to have probable cause to do that type of search |
| 16:59.18 | Bradipo | Again, this assumes there is already evidence against him. |
| 16:59.19 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 16:59.22 | Bradipo | Probable cause. |
| 17:00.22 | emcnabb | I don't think the government should be able to sniff everyone's connections, but if there is "probable cause" that it is happening, they should be able to investigate it more. |
| 17:01.24 | emcnabb | Bradipo: I need to get back to work, but it was enjoyable chatting with you |
| 17:01.39 | emcnabb | and I see where you're coming from (I really do) |
| 17:01.45 | Bradipo | I believe you do. |
| 17:01.53 | Bradipo | Usually people that don't see it, attack personally. :-) |
| 17:02.14 | Bradipo | Rather than presenting arguments. |
| 17:02.17 | emcnabb | haha |
| 17:08.02 | Jayce^ | habit |
| 17:08.05 | Bradipo | lol |
| 17:08.13 | Bradipo | levi: http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1709 :-) |
| 17:08.16 | emcnabb | ~lart Jayce^ |
| 17:08.24 | emcnabb | ibot: you're lame |
| 17:08.53 | Bradipo | brac doesn't scan for titles in all privmsg apparently. |
| 17:08.58 | Bradipo | http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1709 |
| 17:09.02 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@128.187.180.70) |
| 17:09.16 | Bradipo | Hmm, brac apparently is not working at all. |
| 17:11.09 | levi | Bradipo: I agree that it's important for some people to be radical idealists. I'm just not one of them. :) |
| 17:11.11 | maquis | looks like it went pretty far |
| 17:12.37 | Bradipo | levi: By the way, thanks for that article on slacking. |
| 17:12.54 | levi | Was that from me? I don't recall the article. |
| 17:12.57 | Bradipo | Maybe not. |
| 17:13.08 | Bradipo | It was posted yesterday. |
| 17:13.37 | Bradipo | Must have been someone else. |
| 17:13.59 | Jayce^ | that was Jason Holt |
| 17:14.05 | Bradipo | Ahh... |
| 17:14.14 | emcnabb | ~urls |
| 17:14.19 | emcnabb | ~url |
| 17:14.21 | ibot | methinks url is (Universal Resource Locator) This is what is used to give Web addresses for HTML, VRML, WAV and other files. It simply contains the Internet name of the machine containing the data and the path to the file. Much like the UNC, except specifically for the Internet. The address also includes what protocol should be used. |
| 17:14.39 | emcnabb | didn't one of the bots keep a record of all the URLs that were posted? |
| 17:14.50 | Bradipo | brac did I thought. |
| 17:14.56 | Bradipo | I don't think brac is working right now. |
| 17:15.19 | Bradipo | The article was actually posted to plug: http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/16/news/economy/annie/fortune_annie0317/index.htm?cnn=yes |
| 17:15.20 | brac | [Be smarter at work, slack off - Mar. 17, 2006] |
| 17:15.22 | Bradipo | And it was Jason... |
| 17:15.31 | Bradipo | brac: Are you discriminating? |
| 17:15.31 | brac | who knows? |
| 17:15.37 | emcnabb | ah, I remember reading that one |
| 17:15.53 | Jayce^ | anybody else here notice just how much Jason Holt *looks* like Josh Coates? |
| 17:16.06 | emcnabb | true |
| 17:16.59 | maquis | emcnabb: are your studnets back yet? |
| 17:17.03 | maquis | emr... |
| 17:17.06 | maquis | students |
| 17:17.43 | emcnabb | yeah |
| 17:18.51 | maquis | cool |
| 17:19.54 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@205.208.239.165) |
| 17:21.04 | maquis | ~spell inifinitesimal |
| 17:24.27 | elg | YAUUG |
| 17:25.56 | emcnabb | Young Acrobatic Unix Users Group? |
| 17:26.56 | elg | Yet Another Utah User Group |
| 17:27.27 | emcnabb | ah |
| 17:31.30 | maquis | netname: HANGZHOU-AGED-UNIVERSITY |
| 17:31.30 | maquis | country: CN |
| 17:31.30 | maquis | descr: The Aged University Of Hangzhou |
| 17:31.50 | elg | gotta watch out for those aged universities |
| 17:33.42 | goozbach | -urls |
| 17:33.43 | brac | [2006/03/22 10:15:20] <Bradipo> http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/16/news/economy/annie/fortune_annie0317/index.htm?cnn=yes |
| 17:33.43 | brac | [2006/03/22 10:08:14] <Bradipo> http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1709 |
| 17:33.43 | brac | [2006/03/22 09:33:48] <emcnabb> http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/21/mud.death.ap/index.html |
| 17:33.43 | brac | [2006/03/21 22:38:48] <tensai> http://www.data-connect.com/motorola_canopy_300Mb_BH.gif |
| 17:34.08 | elg | -lart goozbach |
| 17:34.12 | *** join/#utah Kuyaedz (n=Kuyaedz@kuyaedz.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 17:34.24 | elg | so goozbach are in inbetween or have you started yet? |
| 17:34.56 | goozbach | in between |
| 17:35.04 | goozbach | just packing up the house today |
| 17:36.00 | Jayce^ | you selling it? renting? abandoning? :) |
| 17:36.02 | elg | fun |
| 17:36.19 | elg | or not |
| 17:36.23 | goozbach | I was renting |
| 17:36.30 | Jayce^ | ah |
| 17:36.40 | elg | but now he'll be pwning |
| 17:36.41 | goozbach | not too bad |
| 17:36.45 | elg | the world |
| 17:36.51 | goozbach | I don't have much stuff |
| 17:37.10 | goozbach | there's nothing like a move to encourage one to de-junk |
| 17:37.52 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 17:37.58 | elg | -lart sjansen |
| 17:39.27 | goozbach | lart and quit |
| 17:39.39 | goozbach | what a coward |
| 17:39.40 | maquis | -lart sjansen |
| 17:40.57 | sjansen | yay sendmail remote root vulnerabilities! |
| 17:42.18 | *** part/#utah Kuyaedz (n=Kuyaedz@kuyaedz.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 17:42.25 | Bradipo | sjansen: Is there a new one out? |
| 17:43.35 | *** join/#utah Hhhhhh (n=Hhhhhhhh@128.187.81.240) |
| 17:44.09 | Hhhhhh | wow |
| 17:44.11 | Hhhhhh | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fractal_Broccoli.jpg |
| 17:44.21 | Hhhhhh | this is so cool |
| 17:45.13 | sjansen | http://lwn.net/Articles/176595/ |
| 17:47.24 | Bradipo | harleypig: Is that genetically modified? Or just a touched up photo. |
| 17:48.25 | Bradipo | Sorry harleypig that was meant for Hhhhhh who left. |
| 17:48.39 | Bradipo | sjansen: Do people still use sendmail? :-) |
| 17:50.12 | goozbach | Bradipo: methinks it's a natural broccoli |
| 17:50.35 | Bradipo | goozbach: It does look like it. Maybe I'll have to get me some romanesco broccoli seed... |
| 17:50.49 | Bradipo | I grew some calabrese broccoli last year and it was really good (except for the aphids). |
| 17:52.28 | Jayce^ | http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/2006/03/22/Desert_Edge_The_Island |
| 17:52.43 | Jayce^ | for those not watching the planet, or reading my feed.. :) |
| 17:52.50 | Jayce^ | if anyone wants to give paintball a try... |
| 17:54.29 | sjansen | Bradipo: Sadly, many people do still use Sendmail. |
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| 18:14.09 | *** join/#utah Hhhhhh (n=Hhhhhhhh@128.187.81.240) |
| 18:35.59 | sjansen | :-P |
| 18:37.18 | graphyx | Openclue.. Is that the place to send people who don't have a clue? |
| 18:37.27 | graphyx | without having to pay a proprietary fee? |
| 18:38.01 | Jayce^ | openclue.org/ut |
| 18:38.16 | maquis | that's net on the list after i get caught up in classes |
| 18:39.05 | *** topic/#utah by Jayce^ -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See openclue.org/ut, sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com, utaug.org. |
| 18:39.41 | maquis | fslc? |
| 18:40.04 | Jayce^ | free software and linux club |
| 18:40.06 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@205.208.239.165) |
| 18:40.15 | maquis | ah... i just got to the site when you said that :) |
| 18:44.45 | goozbach | USU |
| 18:44.51 | goozbach | 's linux club |
| 18:51.37 | goozbach | BOFH on RSS... cool! |
| 18:52.57 | maquis | bofh.. mmm |
| 18:54.40 | goozbach | anyone want to come with? |
| 18:56.22 | elg | sure, if you'll pay |
| 18:56.37 | goozbach | no |
| 18:57.03 | elg | shucks. :) |
| 18:57.22 | elg | enjoy the snow while you can. bet there's not much skiing in florida |
| 18:58.01 | levi | Enjoy the mountains, too. |
| 18:58.11 | levi | Florida is ridiculously flat. |
| 18:58.35 | goozbach | yeah but it has beaches |
| 19:00.38 | graphyx | cause it's an actiontec? |
| 19:01.26 | levi | Cool, Alan Kay and Dan Ingalls still post to the Squeak mailing list occasionally. |
| 19:01.52 | maquis | goozbach: the only reason you like beaches is becaues of the girls |
| 19:03.00 | sjansen | maquis: What, you think he doesn't like sand? |
| 19:03.23 | QBFreak | bah, I used to have the RSS feed for the BOFH and now I can't find it.... |
| 19:03.29 | maquis | sjansen: are you disagreeing with my statement? |
| 19:05.03 | goozbach | maquis: so? |
| 19:06.51 | QBFreak | bah, every time I empty my spam folder in gmail, I start getting more spam in my inbox, I guess they use it to help figure out what is and is not spam |
| 19:09.13 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@205.208.239.165) |
| 19:11.32 | maquis | goozbach: :-P |
| 19:11.52 | maquis | QBFreak: is that what's making gmail's spam filter so sucky? |
| 19:12.28 | QBFreak | might be, in the past it worked quite well for me |
| 19:12.42 | QBFreak | but twice now I've cleaned out the spam folder and then it doesn't work so well for a while |
| 19:12.56 | maquis | i thought they were just being stupid... |
| 19:12.59 | sjansen | maquis: actually, I'm wondering what's wrong with goozbach's motivation |
| 19:13.32 | *** join/#utah WoodsDog (n=woodsdog@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 19:21.11 | maquis | sjansen: nothing... i was just making an observation |
| 19:26.25 | graphyx | well the truth be told, It's hard to find a girl to marry without being around any.. |
| 19:28.16 | Motoko | I hear that |
| 19:28.26 | Motoko | Especially in Utah |
| 19:28.58 | Motoko | Dating in Utah sucks |
| 19:29.23 | levi | Does dating outside of Utah not suck? |
| 19:29.33 | Motoko | Not as much as it does here |
| 19:29.40 | levi | I dunno about that. |
| 19:29.54 | levi | I had much more success in Utah than outside it. |
| 19:30.24 | graphyx | I think I agree with Motoko. My bro-in-law went down to Snow college. |
| 19:30.25 | levi | The girls in Maryland were freakin' weird. |
| 19:30.28 | graphyx | He is from Oregon. |
| 19:30.34 | graphyx | And he asked a girl out. |
| 19:30.38 | Motoko | Every girl I meet who is single has a kid or is preagnant, or wants an RM |
| 19:30.44 | graphyx | And she said ok, but you have toask me creatively before we go... |
| 19:31.21 | graphyx | Asking a girl out for a geek is hard enough without having to have pressure of asking in a creative enough manner before you even pick the girl up?? |
| 19:31.31 | graphyx | and then you spend as much money on the invite as you do the date? |
| 19:31.32 | levi | Obviously asking the wrong girl. |
| 19:31.34 | Motoko | and the few single girls that don't fall into the previous two categories, are just weird |
| 19:32.46 | Motoko | like "Socially Inept" kind of weid |
| 19:32.57 | Motoko | weird |
| 19:33.09 | sjansen | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7258896287489458266 |
| 19:34.34 | levi | sjansen: Evil. |
| 19:37.40 | *** join/#utah SpecialZ (n=mse@128.187.174.228) |
| 19:46.36 | emcnabb | is there a way to have a bash script die if any command within the script fails? I could put '|| exit' after each command, but I'd like to not modify it much if possilbe |
| 19:46.40 | emcnabb | possible |
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| 19:53.18 | *** join/#utah SpecialZ (n=mse@128.187.174.228) |
| 19:59.16 | emcnabb | I think 'set -e' is what I want |
| 20:02.58 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@205.208.239.165) |
| 20:14.07 | harleypig | Bradipo: It's spray on. :> |
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| 21:12.12 | maquis | ~hug gmail's "view as html" option for doc/xls files |
| 21:12.14 | ibot | ACTION hugs gmail's "view as html" option for doc/xls files |
| 21:13.02 | tene | ~hugs maquis with fire. |
| 21:13.03 | ibot | hugs maquis with fire. even though it's not "prim & proper" to do so |
| 21:13.12 | tene | ~hug maquis with fire. |
| 21:13.13 | ibot | ACTION hugs maquis with fire. |
| 21:13.19 | maquis | huh? |
| 21:13.29 | maquis | what's with the prim & proper one? |
| 21:13.37 | tene | ~literal hugs |
| 21:13.39 | ibot | "hugs" is "<reply> Haskell 98 intepreter. URL: http://www.haskell.org/hugs/" |
| 21:14.11 | tene | ~hugs something prim and proper to hug |
| 21:14.13 | ibot | hugs something prim and proper to hug even though it's not "prim & proper" to do so |
| 21:15.23 | maquis | ~literal hugs $foo |
| 21:15.24 | ibot | hugs $foo even though it's not "prim & proper" to do so |
| 21:22.27 | *** part/#utah Motoko (n=motoko@emperorzurg.infowest.com) |
| 21:22.51 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@66.239.25.94.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:24.18 | TheDiff | has anyone used fvwm-crystal? |
| 21:24.32 | *** join/#utah phinux (n=jamie@c-24-10-237-226.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:27.21 | phinux | I'm working on learning Javascript and I'm writing a bit of code that is supposed to replace an image if it doesn't load properly. Does anyone know if there is a way to see if "onerror" occurs? |
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| 21:57.59 | sjansen | ~bless elg |
| 21:58.00 | ibot | O $DEITY, bless our child elg, who is about to do something stupid and needs all the help you can give. Amen. |
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| 22:53.38 | Bradipo | Anyone here use joker.com for DNS? |
| 22:53.51 | Bradipo | Are they having major DNS issues right now? |
| 23:09.45 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 23:20.21 | mheath | Can anyone comment on the Nintendo DS? I'm looking to pick one up. |
| 23:21.00 | TheDiff | you can't play video games in the marines |
| 23:21.09 | mrpull- | mheath: i might have to buy one _just_ for the new SMB |
| 23:26.42 | jsmith | mheath: The wifi on them isn't that hot -- in fact, it's downright lousy |
| 23:36.26 | lars-ut-away | Ralf just cancelled on the Saturday CGL presentation - he said he'll coordinate better the next time he's in town. |
| 23:45.41 | obfuscated | c++ is *so* 1990's |
| 23:46.17 | obfuscated | in the future everything will be in Perl/PHP and AJAX ;-) |
| 23:46.29 | levi | Ew. |
| 23:46.37 | levi | Not my future! |
| 23:47.13 | obfuscated | actually, I do predict an AJAX operating system going mainstream in the future |
| 23:47.51 | obfuscated | perhaps that's what google's doing |
| 23:48.23 | obfuscated | I keep meaning to write the evidences in my blog some time |
| 23:48.24 | levi | I would not call such a thing an operating system, but I'm sure an AJAX 'productivity desktop' or something will exist before too long. |
| 23:48.28 | Bradipo | and C is so 70's |
| 23:48.37 | obfuscated | levi: that's probably a better description |
| 23:48.50 | obfuscated | more like a replacement for, say kde, or gnome |
| 23:49.03 | Bradipo | Are there any demo's of such an AJAX concept out there? |
| 23:49.31 | obfuscated | Bradipo: I saw something on Digg last week about someone doing something similar |
| 23:49.32 | levi | There are pieces of it all around, and google seems to be buying several of them. |
| 23:50.05 | obfuscated | yeah - it makes sense - just loading your application from the web, base the UI on javascript, and all runs directly on the desktop |
| 23:50.30 | obfuscated | your desktop essentially becomes a glorified browser in some ways |
| 23:50.50 | obfuscated | although that's a bad name for it |
| 23:51.03 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-67-169-251-185.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:51.59 | obfuscated | Manning's AJAX book will get you thinking in the right mindset for it |
| 23:52.03 | Bradipo | obfuscated: Javascript never seems to run very smoothly for me... |
| 23:52.08 | obfuscated | great read, even if you're not into AJAX |
| 23:52.25 | Bradipo | Or rather, applications that I use which are written in javascript. |
| 23:52.28 | obfuscated | Bradipo: neither does Windows for me ;-) |
| 23:52.34 | Bradipo | Hehe. |
| 23:53.03 | obfuscated | I think the rendering can still be improved, but that's just a fix to the rendering engine/parser |
| 23:53.16 | obfuscated | I know nothing about that stuff though |
| 23:53.22 | obfuscated | the concept just makes sense though |
| 23:55.01 | Bradipo | Weren't we all supposed to be running networked productivity by now thanks to .NET? |
| 23:56.21 | obfuscated | hah! They tried - I think standardization beat out .NET |
| 23:56.45 | obfuscated | although I think .NET is somewhat moving more and more towards w3c standardization |
| 23:56.58 | obfuscated | AJAX is forcing it |
