| 00:01.47 | findlay | ?mcnabb know my reticence over using trite cliches like sending condolances |
| 00:03.08 | SpecialZ | Bye Goo. Hopefully the new place works out |
| 00:41.59 | emcnabb | findlay: what in the h??? are you talking about? |
| 01:17.09 | nick125 | I know :( |
| 01:25.59 | emcnabb | findlay: I think they're running from you |
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| 04:43.09 | mheath | I was talking to a recruiter today. |
| 04:43.14 | mheath | harleypig: around? |
| 04:49.29 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@67.137.24.114) |
| 04:49.46 | findlay | nope |
| 04:49.50 | findlay | didn't work |
| 04:49.53 | findlay | ): |
| 04:51.58 | maquis | findlay: only 4 hours? |
| 04:52.44 | findlay | maquis: what do you mean? |
| 04:53.02 | maquis | findlay: 4 hours ago, you said you were only going to speak in 3rd person from now on |
| 04:53.16 | findlay | oh, that's an alternate universe |
| 04:53.43 | findlay | I guess I gave up |
| 04:55.02 | TheDiff | haha |
| 04:55.04 | TheDiff | good excuse |
| 05:00.05 | mheath | June 26th |
| 05:00.07 | mheath | Wow... |
| 05:00.26 | TheDiff | what is June 26th |
| 05:01.26 | mheath | TheDiff: In the early morning of June 26th, I will step off a bus at United States Marine Corp Recruit Depot San Diego and start my 3 month experience of the closest thing on this planet to a living hell. |
| 05:01.57 | atoponce | mheath- good luck |
| 05:02.33 | TheDiff | woah |
| 05:04.53 | TheTiGuR | It isn't that bad |
| 05:05.08 | TheTiGuR | I'll even say that it will be good for you |
| 05:05.20 | TheTiGuR | It was good for me =-) |
| 05:05.33 | mheath | TheTiGuR == HarleyPig? |
| 05:05.41 | TheTiGuR | Nope |
| 05:05.45 | TheTiGuR | <-- TheTiGuR |
| 05:05.47 | mheath | TheTiGuR: You've been through USMC Recruit Training? |
| 05:05.54 | TheTiGuR | I have |
| 05:06.16 | TheTiGuR | I went into the reserves, did basic in....mmm...'94 |
| 05:06.26 | mheath | TheTiGuR: I'm scared. I think alot of that, though, is because up until recently I was planning on going into the Navy |
| 05:06.43 | mheath | because of my experience with the Navy, I felt supremely confident about USN basic training. I thought it would be easy. |
| 05:06.54 | mheath | This, however, is something else altogether. |
| 05:07.05 | TheTiGuR | Anything in particular you are scared of, or just the experience in general? |
| 05:07.10 | mheath | TheTiGuR: not still in the reserves, are you? |
| 05:07.50 | TheTiGuR | No, the leadership of the reserve unit (platoon sergeant mainly) was not conducive to me wanting to re-up |
| 05:08.10 | TheTiGuR | Besides having gotten married, had kids, etc |
| 05:08.21 | mheath | TheTiGuR: mainly the PT aspects. I've never been one for physical things (though thats changed a bit lately to where I'm in decent though not excellent shape)....but thats one of my goals with the Corp, to improve my physical shape, stamina, and confidence. |
| 05:08.34 | TheTiGuR | You will do that for sure |
| 05:08.41 | TheTiGuR | I went in as a fatbody |
| 05:08.48 | TheTiGuR | lost ~40 lbs |
| 05:08.57 | TheTiGuR | ran a 3-mile in 21 minutes |
| 05:09.22 | xbmodder_lappy | wow. |
| 05:09.24 | xbmodder_lappy | :-( |
| 05:09.32 | TheTiGuR | I was never in *excellent* shape, but I was a darn sight better coming out than when I went in |
| 05:09.32 | xbmodder_lappy | TheTiGuR, Good job. |
| 05:09.41 | xbmodder_lappy | TheDiff, how long did that all take? |
| 05:09.51 | TheDiff | did all what take? |
| 05:10.18 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: they work you up to a 25 mile run. 10 miles with full gear (~100 pounds). |
| 05:10.24 | xbmodder_lappy | losing 40 pounds and being able to do 3 miles in 21 minutes. |
| 05:10.30 | xbmodder_lappy | mheath, that is hell... |
| 05:10.33 | TheDiff | um that wasnt me |
| 05:10.38 | TheDiff | i run a 3 mile way faster than that |
| 05:10.46 | TheTiGuR | wrong nick complete =-) |
| 05:10.50 | TheDiff | haha |
| 05:10.51 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: TheDiff != TheTiGuR |
| 05:11.01 | xbmodder_lappy | well.. |
| 05:11.02 | xbmodder_lappy | :-/ |
| 05:11.03 | TheTiGuR | I was in boot camp for 13 weeks |
| 05:11.06 | TheDiff | and i think it would be humanly unpossible for me to lose 40 lbs and live |
| 05:11.08 | xbmodder_lappy | oh. |
| 05:11.21 | xbmodder_lappy | :-/ |
| 05:11.24 | mheath | I don't know. The more I think about my choice to go USMC rather than USN, the more comfortable with it I feel. |
| 05:11.43 | mheath | I'm very nervous about boot, but I think that everyone feels that way. |
| 05:12.13 | TheTiGuR | Biggest things to remember: |
| 05:12.13 | TheDiff | it'll be fine, just act like a hardass |
| 05:12.29 | mheath | If anything, I should feel more confident than most. I know a lot of military customs and courtesies, and I'm already very familiar with marine/navy drill and ceremony |
| 05:12.43 | TheTiGuR | You are a team - win or lose, it's on all of you |
| 05:12.44 | mheath | and my experiences so far have tought me the biggest lesson: SHUT UP, and THE ONLY EXCUSE IS NO EXCUSE! |
| 05:12.51 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 05:13.06 | mheath | TheTiGuR: Yep. |
| 05:13.19 | mheath | TheTiGuR: going reserve, did they put you through the full 13 weeks? |
| 05:13.35 | TheTiGuR | Yep, I did the full meal deal for being a bullet sponge |
| 05:14.04 | mheath | TheTiGuR: were you drilling up at Fort Douglas, or did you just recently move here? |
| 05:14.05 | TheTiGuR | I just had the luxury of laughing at all the active duty who got to go spend 6 months on a boat while I went home |
| 05:14.22 | TheTiGuR | Yeah, I was with Fox co at ft douglas |
| 05:15.11 | mheath | TheTiGuR: they were one of the first groups in Iraq. Good timing =P |
| 05:15.23 | TheTiGuR | Yeah, my contract expired in 08/01 |
| 05:15.37 | mheath | TheTiGuR: remember a group that met up there....youth organization...known as the US Naval Sea Cadet Corp? |
| 05:15.53 | TheTiGuR | Never saw them htere, but yeah I saw the signage |
| 05:16.27 | mheath | <---- SN Heath, Assistant Leading Petty Officer, Great Salt Lake Division, US Naval Sea Cadet Corp. |
| 05:16.33 | mheath | Yah for rediculous titles |
| 05:16.37 | TheTiGuR | haha |
| 05:16.50 | TheTiGuR | I was a lowly lcpl |
| 05:16.52 | xbmodder_lappy | That sounds cool. |
| 05:17.03 | mheath | I'm glad of my participation with that organization, though |
| 05:17.06 | TheTiGuR | first rate bullet catcher |
| 05:17.13 | mheath | The field training I went to is what sparked the idea of going USMC rather than USN |
| 05:17.38 | TheTiGuR | Overall I really enjoyed my time in the marines |
| 05:17.51 | TheTiGuR | Only a few people brought it down |
| 05:17.55 | mheath | 89 on the practice ASVAB! |
| 05:18.02 | mheath | All the good it will do me =P |
| 05:18.07 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@63-230-19-218.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 05:18.07 | TheTiGuR | ie. those who think leading = screaming at you |
| 05:18.10 | mheath | 0311! Hoorah. |
| 05:18.40 | mheath | TheTiGuR: what was your MOS? |
| 05:18.42 | TheTiGuR | better an 0311 than a 0351(?) |
| 05:19.00 | TheTiGuR | I would hate humping around machine gunner gear |
| 05:19.08 | mheath | Assaultman is 0351 |
| 05:19.14 | TheTiGuR | no matter how cool it would be to fire them |
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| 05:20.58 | mheath | TheTiGuR: what was your MOS, though? |
| 05:21.03 | TheTiGuR | 0311 |
| 05:21.11 | mheath | Awesome :) |
| 05:21.24 | mheath | Have any regrets about going 0311? |
| 05:21.48 | TheTiGuR | Me no, my knees....mmmm....they'll say something different |
| 05:21.53 | mheath | haha |
| 05:22.15 | TheTiGuR | Course I'm an inch or so shorter leaving |
| 05:24.03 | mheath | Heh, part of me thinks this is insane. going 0311 now is pretty much a guaranteed ticket to Iraq right now. |
| 05:24.48 | mheath | And to be honest, I really can't express why I want to join the corp. |
| 05:25.00 | TheTiGuR | That's easy for me |
| 05:25.11 | TheTiGuR | They were the first ones to get to me |
| 05:25.18 | TheTiGuR | and I needed $$ for school |
| 05:25.18 | mheath | Heh |
| 05:26.18 | mheath | I enjoy the comraderie I'd experience, and I think the corp would help develop me into a more reliable and responsible person |
| 05:26.53 | mheath | I also plan to use it to pay for college |
| 05:27.31 | maquis | what's 0311? |
| 05:27.34 | TheTiGuR | It was certainly a life changing experience, and I'd definitely do it again knowing what I know now |
| 05:27.40 | TheTiGuR | 0311 = Infantry |
| 05:27.46 | TheTiGuR | = bullet sponge |
| 05:27.54 | maquis | ah |
| 05:28.01 | mheath | 0311 = "Rifleman" |
| 05:29.04 | TheTiGuR | pfft....details |
| 05:29.06 | TheTiGuR | =p |
| 05:29.08 | mheath | But, "Every Marine [is] a rifleman". Hence, "infantry" =P |
| 05:29.32 | mheath | TheTiGuR: plus....call me crazy...I really love having a gun in my hand =P |
| 05:29.43 | mheath | We did that field training |
| 05:29.57 | mheath | just had dummy (partially fake, nonfunctioning) M16A2's |
| 05:30.13 | TheTiGuR | It is very satisfying to shoot things |
| 05:30.20 | mheath | We had a limited number, though. I'd volunteer for watches, just so I could stand there with the rifle in my hand :) |
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| 05:36.22 | xbmodder_lappy | ScytheBlade1, what be up? |
| 05:36.38 | ScytheBlade1 | 2.6.16 + nvidia drivers (not working) |
| 05:36.45 | xbmodder_lappy | hehe, :-( |
| 05:36.54 | xbmodder_lappy | I hate that... |
| 05:36.55 | ScytheBlade1 | That said, running xmms2 |
| 05:37.00 | xbmodder_lappy | is it just unsupported? |
| 05:37.01 | ScytheBlade1 | xmms2 now support zeroconf, which is amazing |
| 05:37.42 | mheath | TheTiGuR: do they actually issue you a rifle? They kinda imply that ("This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine") |
| 05:37.55 | mheath | but it seems weird. Like, what would you do with it when you're on leave? |
| 05:39.05 | TheTiGuR | issued a rifle, yes, but not like the keep it with you at all times sense that someone from say, israel, would have |
| 05:40.06 | mheath | But, the rifle I'm given in basic is the same one I'd have in my hand over in Iraq? |
| 05:40.12 | TheTiGuR | no |
| 05:40.26 | TheTiGuR | rifles generally stay where they were issued |
| 05:41.09 | TheTiGuR | The only gear you'll keep throughout is your uniforms |
| 05:41.41 | mheath | The recruiter said they don't even issue you blues anymore =\ |
| 05:41.57 | mheath | dress blues |
| 05:41.58 | TheTiGuR | They haven't issued blues for a long time |
| 05:42.08 | TheTiGuR | All I got issued was the trousers |
| 05:42.13 | TheTiGuR | I had to buy my jacket |
| 05:42.33 | TheTiGuR | Truly a worthy investment though |
| 05:42.41 | mheath | Am I free to purchase it immediately after basic, though? |
| 05:42.49 | mheath | Or is there some special requirement, or rank requirement... |
| 05:42.50 | mheath | ? |
| 05:42.54 | TheTiGuR | Especially if you have opportunities to wear it in public |
| 05:43.06 | TheTiGuR | purchase whenever you want as far as I am aware |
| 05:44.09 | mheath | Heh, yep. Call me stupid, but I have some stupid fantasy of coming home wearing that uniform, and kinda 'showing off' =P |
| 05:44.31 | TheTiGuR | Nothing wrong with that |
| 05:44.40 | mheath | Visiting some friends and relatives during my 10 day leave, before I'll have to be at Pendleton |
| 05:45.08 | mheath | Its by far the sharpest looking US military uniform, I think. |
| 05:45.14 | TheTiGuR | Absolutely |
| 05:45.24 | TheTiGuR | I got my wedding pics in my blues |
| 05:45.34 | mheath | Nice :) |
| 05:46.12 | mheath | Heh, the recruiter gave me a booklet...just some promotional stuff.... |
| 05:46.48 | mheath | It has a picture of a Marine in blues. Holding a cermonial rifle with bayonet at order arms. |
| 05:46.57 | mheath | Extremely sharp looking. |
| 05:47.21 | xbmodder_lappy | Imagine you there in, what 3 years? |
| 05:47.56 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: 6 months. |
| 05:48.17 | TheTiGuR | After high school? |
| 05:48.53 | mheath | TheTiGuR: I'll be shipping off to San Diego on June 25th night probably |
| 05:49.13 | mheath | I'm 16 now. I turn 17 on June 19th. Because I moved up a grade at one point, I'll be done with highschool |
| 05:49.27 | xbmodder_lappy | wow. |
| 05:49.28 | mheath | I'm working with a recruiter now so that they can hopefully ship me off for the 26th |
| 05:49.39 | mheath | If not, I'll be gone on July 10th. |
| 05:49.43 | TheTiGuR | Cool |
| 05:49.52 | xbmodder_lappy | Do they pay for plane tickets? |
| 05:49.59 | TheTiGuR | I left the week after I graduated....june 10thish |
| 05:50.00 | mheath | .... |
| 05:50.02 | TheTiGuR | and yes they do |
| 05:50.14 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: They pay for everything. |
| 05:50.18 | mheath | Its a job. |
| 05:50.26 | TheTiGuR | They pay for a lot of stuff before they even get you to boot |
| 05:50.29 | mheath | Not a vacation, not a trip, not a summer camp. |
| 05:51.02 | xbmodder_lappy | mheath, do you get bottom of the barrel services? |
| 05:51.11 | TheTiGuR | Not really |
| 05:51.24 | TheTiGuR | That happens AFTER they sucker you in |
| 05:51.45 | TheTiGuR | Nothing says love like a 10 hour flight on a webbed seat in the back of a c-130 |
| 05:51.52 | mheath | haha |
| 05:52.05 | mheath | TheTiGuR: they moved my family to Turkey on one of those |
| 05:52.13 | TheTiGuR | <shudder> |
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| 05:52.36 | mheath | My dad and our family was moved there (hes a retired O-6, USAF), CO of a subinstallation there |
| 05:53.07 | mheath | Luckily I was born after they got the experience of a transatlantic flight on a C-130 =P |
| 05:54.04 | TheTiGuR | yes, definitely lucky for you |
| 05:54.31 | TheTiGuR | I've done the c-130 several times and it doesn't get less unpleasant |
| 05:54.46 | mheath | Heh, just under the rank where he'd get his own transportatio |
| 05:55.59 | mheath | I should talk my dad into coming to my graduation from boot in uniform |
| 05:56.17 | mheath | the idea of walking up to my drill instructors with an O-6 with me appeals to me ;-P |
| 05:56.40 | xbmodder_lappy | you walk up with your father? |
| 05:56.52 | TheTiGuR | I would keep it under wraps until that point comes along |
| 05:57.06 | TheTiGuR | DI's can be real bastards =-) |
| 05:57.07 | mheath | TheTiGuR: Heh, I'm joking. |
| 05:57.14 | *** join/#utah RyanE (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 05:57.24 | mheath | Yep, I'm well acquainted with this fact. |
| 05:57.39 | mheath | The picture of one in this booklet seems to convey that quite well. |
| 05:57.41 | TheTiGuR | I think it'd be awesome to do, at graduation, just not presenting that information beforehand |
| 05:58.07 | mheath | Its an interesting picture |
| 05:58.26 | mheath | His facial expression is like......he's overflowing his faces ability to express his anger. |
| 05:58.56 | mheath | A flood of emotion. Just utter anger, and a sign that there is more deep down inside, even =P |
| 05:59.04 | TheTiGuR | I have been the subject of such facial expressions |
| 05:59.18 | TheTiGuR | Not a fun time |
| 05:59.27 | mheath | Its creepy |
| 05:59.27 | findlay | interesting how that works |
| 05:59.33 | mheath | I saw some pictures of a barracks |
| 05:59.42 | mheath | They have one way mirrors from the DI's room? |
| 05:59.45 | findlay | i wonder what it takes to be a drill instructor |
| 05:59.55 | TheTiGuR | But then again, I have also been the able to make a DI stop and take a moment to compose himself to prevent laughing |
| 06:00.08 | mheath | findlay: Posession by an agent of the devil? ;-P |
| 06:00.09 | TheTiGuR | I dunno...never been in the duty hut |
| 06:00.11 | findlay | ha |
| 06:00.23 | findlay | I bet it's hard |
| 06:00.32 | mheath | Yes, it is. |
| 06:00.42 | findlay | to be a drill instructor, I mean |
| 06:00.42 | mheath | Let me say this now, because I'm sure I won't be saying this in the middle of it: |
| 06:00.47 | mheath | I have nothing but respect for them. |
| 06:01.06 | mheath | They're responsible for training thousands of new recruits, and they do an amazingly outstanding job |
| 06:01.14 | findlay | mheath: just keep on respecting them and you'll do well |
| 06:02.17 | mheath | When you factor in how much time they put in while serving in the billet, they're paid well below minimum wage. Yet they consistently represent the military and the Corp in the most outstanding way possible. |
| 06:03.51 | findlay | I can see it as either being harder than being a recruit or as something a malevolent person would enjoy |
| 06:04.05 | TheTiGuR | <giggle> |
| 06:04.13 | findlay | (: |
| 06:04.22 | TheTiGuR | DI's go through their boot camp just to be DI's |
| 06:04.44 | TheTiGuR | and they are doing it for 2 years once in the billet |
| 06:05.24 | maquis | DIs? |
| 06:05.30 | maquis | oh... |
| 06:05.31 | TheTiGuR | Drill Instructor |
| 06:05.34 | maquis | drill instructor |
| 06:06.39 | TheDiff | yeah, full metal jacket was awesome |
| 06:07.27 | mheath | By the way |
| 06:07.33 | mheath | Jarhead is waste of your time |
| 06:07.42 | mheath | Jarhead = Full metal Jacket + First Blood (?) |
| 06:08.11 | TheDiff | i never saw first blood |
| 06:08.19 | TheDiff | so, it should probably still go see it |
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| 06:43.56 | findlay | how do I make postfix deliver mail to a usere@ip.addr? |
| 06:44.14 | QBFreak | a sledgehammer and duct tape? |
| 06:44.26 | QBFreak | maybe a soldering iron as well |
| 06:45.06 | maquis | don't forget wd-40 |
| 06:45.48 | QBFreak | and fiiire! |
| 06:48.02 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 06:48.14 | xbmodder_lappy | maybe you specify ip.addr as the local domain? |
| 06:48.16 | xbmodder_lappy | or something |
| 06:48.33 | QBFreak | AHG sometimes firefix completly ignores home/end and up/down |
| 06:48.48 | QBFreak | err right/left |
| 06:48.49 | findlay | I've not heard of this firefix |
| 06:49.21 | QBFreak | it happens rarely to me, I've yet to figure out how to cause it or how to get it back |
| 06:49.24 | xbmodder_lappy | is it an extension? |
| 06:49.29 | findlay | QBFreak: yeah it's something like the current frame isn't active, so I usually just click on it |
| 06:49.34 | QBFreak | it occurs in the address bar |
| 06:49.45 | QBFreak | the cursor is there, and I can scroll up and down through the list |
| 06:49.55 | *** part/#utah dna3e8 (n=dna3e8@128.187.183.64) |
| 06:49.55 | QBFreak | but I can't home/end or right/left |
| 06:50.08 | QBFreak | it's fine now, and I don't know why... |
| 06:50.08 | findlay | that's interesting |
| 06:50.16 | QBFreak | yeah, and really frustrating sometimes |
| 07:06.35 | findlay | ok, I'm dumb |
| 07:06.43 | findlay | hopefully that's it (: |
| 07:07.03 | QBFreak | that's good, admiting you have a problem is the first step |
| 07:07.49 | findlay | QBFreak: what is more is that I have been able to correlate problem => solution (: |
| 07:08.13 | findlay | but levi, you kan't possibly finish |
| 07:08.18 | findlay | ha |
| 07:08.24 | levi | *groan* |
| 07:08.26 | maquis | levi: fun |
| 07:08.31 | maquis | kant is interesting |
| 07:08.39 | maquis | levi: cat. imp.? |
| 07:08.46 | levi | Yup. |
| 07:09.23 | levi | Unfortunately, it all hinges on free will, and he was never able to prove that it actually exists. |
| 07:09.49 | findlay | philosophy's hard |
| 07:10.29 | maquis | "The Google debates reminds me of a Bible story about the Tower of Babble. " |
| 07:10.59 | maquis | that's an amazingly appropriate misspelling |
| 07:11.09 | maquis | and judging frm the rest of the post, it wasn't intentional |
| 07:11.22 | findlay | but a funny accidental pun also |
| 07:11.28 | maquis | yeah |
| 07:14.37 | xbmodder_lappy | cool toy car: http://images.forbes.com/media/lifestyle/2006/03/10/20_0310feat.jpg |
| 07:14.49 | xbmodder_lappy | heh ;-) |
| 07:17.51 | levi | OK, time to sleep. |
| 08:13.11 | Hhhhh | Quake 4 rocks :) :) :) |
| 08:14.02 | Hhhhh | Quake 4 rocks :) :) :) |
| 08:14.28 | findlay | I want a quake 4 rock |
| 08:14.42 | Hhhhh | opver my dead body |
| 08:15.54 | Hhhhh | it'd be nice if someone were to set up a Quake 4 demo server in utah |
| 08:15.58 | Hhhhh | and get some nice ping |
| 08:16.12 | Hhhhh | I would kill you all, of course |
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| 12:39.31 | emcnabb | so tired |
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| 14:46.23 | graphyx | Well my wife just called me and said, tell me if I am right, I can rip CDs to mp3 and play mp3s on an Ipod, right? |
| 14:46.48 | graphyx | Ok I want an Ipod for my birthday so I can put books on CD onto the Ipod and listen to them instead of reading whilie I go walking. |
| 14:47.37 | graphyx | I thought it was amusing how much the lightbulb went off in her mind about the gadgets. |
| 14:52.39 | RyanE | always a good sign. |
| 14:53.01 | graphyx | Perhaps we can get dueling Ipods... or something like that.. |
| 14:53.50 | RyanE | closest thing I've got is my Palmpilot that plays MP3's. Almost an ipod. |
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| 15:19.51 | maquis | emcnabb: why are you "so tired"? |
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| 15:24.30 | maquis | http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/top-10-strangest-lego-creations |
| 15:34.14 | phinux | Need the manuals on those lego projects. |
| 15:34.40 | maquis | :) |
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| 15:56.45 | maquis | -lart SpecialZ |
| 15:58.06 | Hhhhh | I would like to see brac and ibot fight |
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| 16:50.06 | maquis | ~curse maquis' computer |
| 16:50.08 | ibot | May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, maquis' computer ! |
| 16:50.26 | maquis | why in the world does nothing work on here? |
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| 16:58.05 | sjansen | ~lart amcnabb_1 |
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| 17:11.32 | harleypig | anyone able to get xorg-x11 working on an amd64 dual core with gentoo? |
| 17:12.08 | jsmith | harleypig: It works great with amd64 dual-core on RHEL, Fedora, and Ubuntu... |
| 17:12.16 | harleypig | :] |
| 17:12.36 | jsmith | I know that doesn't really help |
| 17:12.56 | jsmith | But I'm not about to go throwing Gentoo on this box today... |
| 17:13.00 | sjansen | silly gentoo user |
| 17:13.29 | harleypig | sjansen is just jealous |
| 17:14.01 | harleypig | It's unfair that someone as unworthy as me gets to have such a nice box. |
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| 17:14.28 | jsmith | harleypig: Naw, I'm not worthy of mine either... but it sure is fast! |
| 17:15.19 | harleypig | Mine too ... it compile xorg and kde in less than 6 hours last night. |
| 17:17.11 | jsmith | Isn't that why they build compiler farms? |
| 17:17.41 | harleypig | :D |
| 17:18.25 | lars-ut | let's see: 1 part aluminum powder... |
| 17:18.40 | harleypig | The wierd thing is, ctrl-alt-bkspace isn't killing the server, and I can't get text mode back. I can switch to a different virtual terminal (via ctrl-alt-#), log in and reboot |
| 17:18.55 | harleypig | but I can't see anything on the screen when I switch virtual terminals |
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| 17:32.46 | Jayce^ | like I said harleypig, doesn't matter how fast you compiled 'em.. .you still can't run them.. |
| 17:33.52 | maquis | harleypig: can you kill X from a virtual terminal? |
| 17:35.06 | harleypig | maquis: Doesn't look like it ... can't be sure though. |
| 17:35.21 | maquis | harleypig: so, at least attempting doesn't fix the rest of the problems |
| 17:35.38 | maquis | it kinda sucks when you can't see *why* it's not working |
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| 17:37.31 | harleypig | Ok ... I booted kanotix and cp'd the XF86Config-4 file from that, and now I can see the virtual terminal. |
| 17:37.39 | harleypig | Still doesn't elp me much |
| 17:37.54 | maquis | harleypig: did you diff them to see why you weren't able to see the vt? |
| 17:40.19 | sjansen | "When we talk about an instance that's not a class, the instance's metaclass is the class of its class..." |
| 17:40.30 | maquis | sjansen: ????? |
| 17:40.33 | harleypig | sjansen: that's sick |
| 17:40.35 | Jayce^ | sjansen, Java Training? |
| 17:40.39 | harleypig | maquis: Too much difference |
| 17:40.57 | maquis | harleypig: ah |
| 17:43.17 | sjansen | Jayce^: Python. |
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| 18:06.32 | scott_ | anyone here attend the php on trax meeting? was a powerpoint used? |
| 18:07.09 | jsmith | scott_: You might try asking in #uphpu |
| 18:07.57 | spr | scott_, there was powerpoint for part of it |
| 18:13.35 | levi | sjansen: Metaclasses are cool. |
| 18:16.42 | sjansen | And useful. |
| 18:18.22 | levi | Indeed. |
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| 18:40.59 | lars-ut | any UUG leadership in here please pm me |
| 18:41.27 | lars-ut | (_current_ UUG leadership) |
| 18:42.38 | levi | Heh. |
| 18:42.59 | levi | I guess that disqualifies me. |
| 18:47.20 | jsmith | lars-ut: There's leadership? |
| 18:48.13 | lars-ut | they've already answered - one thing about zoobies - they're good about committing to things |
| 18:48.30 | lars-ut | _and_ following through. |
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| 18:49.37 | lars-ut | ~north |
| 18:49.39 | ibot | methinks north is up today. |
| 18:49.49 | lars-ut | ~north 2 |
| 18:50.02 | lars-ut | ~use key |
| 18:59.57 | Hhhhh | NO |
| 19:28.41 | sjansen | Bah, pxtl is already taken. |
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| 21:02.56 | findlay | harleypigprogramming.com |
| 21:03.23 | findlay | you can't lose with a name like that |
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| 21:37.30 | lars-ut | #utah: What topics would you like to hear covered by Ralf Flaxa (current project manager for SLES) this Saturday? |
| 21:38.06 | lars-ut | He's been in Linux development for 14 years, & offered to come & speak on short notice to local lugs |
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| 21:50.10 | elg | more linux, less suse |
| 21:51.01 | findlay | who's susie? |
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| 21:54.29 | lars-ut | elg: more specific? |
| 21:54.45 | elg | not really other than I'm not all that interested in suse |
| 21:54.47 | lars-ut | 2.6 kernel? |
| 21:55.09 | elg | what's his expertise? i didn't look at the link |
| 21:56.33 | lars-ut | elg: Linux standardization efforts |
| 21:56.52 | elg | that sounds interesting. like fhs or lsb? |
| 21:58.06 | lars-ut | FHS, LSB, OpenI18N and CGL |
| 21:59.29 | findlay | family history support? |
| 21:59.34 | findlay | ~FHS |
| 21:59.36 | ibot | methinks fhs is the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard and is at http://www.pathname.com/fhs/, or included in the debian-policy package |
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| 22:06.30 | lars-ut | http://www.osdl.org/lab_activities/carrier_grade_linux |
| 22:09.12 | elg | ~i18n |
| 22:09.13 | ibot | somebody said i18n was an abbreviation for internationalisation, which is a really long word used a lot in some circles, so it's shortened by effectively saying "I, then 18 more letters, then N", get it? |
| 22:10.50 | sjansen | ~lart anyone who says i18n |
| 22:11.08 | sjansen | It's okay to type, but if you actually say it you deserve to be fish slapped. |
| 22:11.24 | sjansen | lars-ut: When's this going to be? |
| 22:11.44 | lars-ut | Saturday at BYU |
| 22:12.33 | lars-ut | UVLUG couldn't get a conference room due to spring break |
| 22:13.13 | lars-ut | I'm going to ask him to speak on CGL unless anybody has additional requests |
| 22:13.22 | emcnabb | it's funny to hear the attitude of people new to Linux |
| 22:14.56 | sjansen | emcnabb: just beat them until they accept their new penguin master |
| 22:15.02 | emcnabb | haha |
| 22:17.21 | findlay | emcnabb: what's the attitude? |
| 22:19.48 | emcnabb | e.g. Vim / Emacs are a waste of time to learn. They're archaic and not powerful enough. |
| 22:20.24 | emcnabb | this was after a demo of lots of the advanced functions of both of them |
| 22:20.47 | emcnabb | I don't get it |
| 22:20.59 | elg | i think it always boils down to "something new" and fear |
| 22:21.02 | emcnabb | ('it' being their attitude) |
| 22:21.06 | emcnabb | elg: I agree |
| 22:21.11 | elg | afraid of new things |
| 22:21.32 | findlay | emcnabb: just map all the nifty vim functions to pretty widgets to klik |
| 22:21.50 | elg | make ggDG the biggest button |
| 22:21.55 | elg | er, ggdG |
| 22:23.11 | findlay | and make a personality animation gui for the emacs psychiatrist like clippy |
| 22:23.52 | emcnabb | I learned lots of things after teaching hundreds of students. What it comes down to is that 2/3 of the people in the industry that I've met don't care about computers, even though they're in the industry |
| 22:24.17 | emcnabb | I'm surprised that corporate America even functions |
| 22:24.24 | elg | i have to feel sorry for the people that feel like they couldn't be productive without an IDE. course they probably feel sorry for me for thinking I can be productive without an IDE, so a rigorous study is in order |
| 22:24.42 | findlay | indeed |
| 22:25.25 | emcnabb | the whole 20/80 rule is true (20% of the people do 80% of the work) |
| 22:26.26 | elg | see, jayce just proved our point |
| 22:26.29 | elg | he's asleep again |
| 22:26.38 | emcnabb | dang you Jayce^ |
| 22:27.02 | findlay | I still think a lot about what Alan Kay said about how we treat computing hasn't changed in 25 years. A computer is perhaps the most wonderful invention ever and what do we do with this marvellous invention? |
| 22:28.13 | elg | use it to chat online? |
| 22:28.20 | emcnabb | elg: I think it also comes down to "I don't ever need to do that for my job. Why do I need to learn it?", instead of "If I learn this, maybe I will find a way to apply this in my environment" |
| 22:29.03 | elg | any pilots in here? |
| 22:29.06 | findlay | to say that "if it works, don't fix it" is quite a practical attitude, but certainly not one of a scientist, or specifically a "computer scientist" |
| 22:29.39 | elg | if it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is! |
| 22:29.59 | findlay | I imagine i could still navigate my way around MS flight simulator(TM) |
| 22:31.32 | findlay | elg: but it's an attitude that exists in both the vim/emacs crowd and the IDE crowd |
| 22:32.21 | elg | well "use what you know" is prevalent throughout humanity, and isn't all bad |
| 22:32.31 | elg | it's a balance. |
| 22:32.51 | findlay | true, but it's still not research science |
| 22:33.13 | elg | research scientists do it too. we all must, or we'd get nothing new done |
| 22:33.19 | findlay | I'm not saying there has to be any science about computers, but there isn't |
| 22:33.37 | elg | the difference is research scientists research something, and emcnabb's 80% do nothing but show up at work and click on their IDEs |
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| 22:34.00 | elg | findlay: of course there's computer science |
| 22:34.11 | findlay | not very much of it |
| 22:34.21 | SpecialK | Who makes good LCD monitors? |
| 22:34.29 | findlay | so little that computers probably think themselves ill used |
| 22:34.32 | elg | findlay: how so? |
| 22:35.12 | findlay | elg: I guess I'm speaking for software rather than hardware |
| 22:35.34 | elg | what about software? |
| 22:35.36 | jsmith-away | SpecialK: I can't say it's my favorite monitor, but I was impressed with the tech support at Acer. |
| 22:35.55 | findlay | but software was gobbled up by "proprietary" 25 years ago and hasn't changed much since |
| 22:35.55 | elg | just because programming isn't scientific doesn't mean there's no computer science |
| 22:36.17 | findlay | it means there's no science in computer programming |
| 22:36.19 | elg | that's nonsense of course. |
| 22:36.27 | SpecialK | Is math science? |
| 22:36.34 | findlay | elg: what do you mean? |
| 22:36.35 | elg | the windows market is hardly all computers do |
| 22:36.41 | SpecialK | Or logic? |
| 22:37.14 | findlay | but the Linux and BSD markets are scientific? |
| 22:37.19 | SpecialK | How about Viewsonic or Dell? They're pretty big. |
| 22:37.44 | elg | let's be overgeneral and stick workstations no matter what they run into that category |
| 22:37.58 | findlay | I think Microsoft Research might come close to doimg someting scientific in software |
| 22:38.19 | findlay | into what catergory? |
| 22:38.25 | jsmith-away | SpecialK: Acer replaced the circuit board in my LCD, overnighted it to me, and extended the warranty. |
| 22:38.26 | elg | the desktop category |
| 22:38.45 | findlay | I don't understand what you are trying to say |
| 22:39.04 | elg | i'm trying to say that you apparently only know the tip of the iceberg |
| 22:39.59 | elg | CS is as credible as math, logic, statistics, etc. |
| 22:39.59 | findlay | I don't claim to be beholden to the full majesty of the iceberg, and if there is an iceberg after all, I would be very interested in knowing about it |
| 22:40.07 | elg | there is. that's what I just said. :) |
| 22:40.21 | elg | it's called computer science. although some places call computer science what is not computer science |
| 22:40.44 | findlay | so computer science is math, logic, and statistics? |
| 22:41.06 | elg | as credible as |
| 22:41.21 | elg | part of all of those, and more. its own thing |
| 22:41.22 | findlay | but where is it then? |
| 22:41.40 | elg | where? |
| 22:41.48 | elg | where is physics? |
| 22:42.12 | findlay | research institutions, large universities |
| 22:42.20 | elg | sounds like a good place to start looking |
| 22:42.44 | elg | what's the difference between physics and engineering? |
| 22:42.58 | findlay | engineering is not necessarily science |
| 22:42.58 | elg | you'll find the difference between cs and programming to be analogous |
| 22:43.11 | findlay | interesting |
| 22:43.31 | mheath | I can understand a viewpoint that would consider CS as not really being science, but I'm not sure its the viewpoint findlay is coming from |
| 22:44.01 | mheath | The thing is, Science is usually classified as research-and-discovery. I observe something using a set method, in order to prove a particular theory. |
| 22:44.07 | findlay | elg: then CS is a minnomer (: |
| 22:44.10 | elg | i think "science" may be somewhat of a misnomer, for that reason |
| 22:44.35 | elg | what else would you call it? |
| 22:44.39 | mheath | CS doesn't work that way. It doesn't use the scientific method, it isn't about scientific discovery. |
| 22:44.42 | findlay | I don't know |
| 22:44.47 | elg | neither do i |
| 22:44.53 | SpecialK | Software Engineering |
| 22:45.24 | mheath | Computer Administration, Software Engineering, Computer Technician, etc. |
| 22:45.31 | elg | maybe something stupid like computationality |
| 22:45.39 | findlay | (: |
| 22:45.43 | elg | mheath: but none of those are CS |
| 22:46.44 | SpecialK | Administration and Technician would fall under IT and Informations Systems at BYU. |
| 22:47.19 | findlay | if Linux+GNU+Bazaar, BSD, and Windows are the poster boys of computer engineering, then engineering in computers must still be in it's preliminary stages |
| 22:47.36 | elg | oh computer engineering is anohter thing entirely :) |
| 22:47.41 | elg | mostly having to do with hardware |
| 22:48.09 | mheath | findlay: Computer Engineering has been going on since Bool. |
| 22:48.16 | elg | that's just it, though. those things AREN'T the epitomy of CS |
| 22:48.25 | SpecialK | epitome |
| 22:48.30 | elg | yeah, that |
| 22:48.37 | levi | I just read a talk Dijkstra gave on CS. |
| 22:48.39 | findlay | see? Software is so new a field that we don't even have proper names for it |
| 22:49.09 | elg | we have lots of proper names for software engineering |
| 22:49.27 | elg | and the myriad other things we do with computers |
| 22:49.46 | elg | and CS stuck, so nobody bothers to get a different name. just like i18n |
| 22:49.53 | SpecialK | I'm a Computer Engineer. I work with logic and specs, but I generally don't write applications. |
| 22:50.36 | SpecialK | Anybody own a ViewSonic LCD? |
| 22:50.37 | levi | http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1036.PDF |
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| 22:52.44 | levi | Also from Dijkstra, "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." |
| 22:54.54 | emcnabb | good comparison |
| 22:55.09 | findlay | yeah |
| 22:56.02 | SpecialK | Stars are natural phenomena while computers are not. |
| 22:56.30 | findlay | am I not natural? |
| 22:56.31 | levi | Here's an entry from the Encyclopedia of Computer Science regarding the discipline of Computer Science: http://www.idi.ntnu.no/emner/dif8916/denning.pdf |
| 22:58.47 | levi | SpecialK: The point is that computers are only a peripheral to computer science like telescopes are a peripheral to astronomy. They certainly make the exploration of their respective fields richer and more interesting, but they are not what the fields are about. |
| 22:59.33 | SpecialK | I was partially agreeing with that sentiment, not arguing against it. |
| 22:59.53 | levi | I wasn't sure where you were going with your statement. |
| 23:00.11 | findlay | levi: I think it goes even farther than that. Astronomy as it is now must be done with telescopes in the same way software must be done with computers |
| 23:00.56 | findlay | in either case they are essential tools |
| 23:01.01 | SpecialK | The logical constructs like mathematical principals exist before we discover them. The computers don't exist until we design and build them. |
| 23:01.03 | elg | software is by definition on computers. I think you still don't have the distinction between software and CS |
| 23:01.45 | findlay | SpecialK: but you argue that the logical constructs aren't natural? |
| 23:02.14 | SpecialK | I just said they were natural. The computers are the man made tools. |
| 23:02.15 | findlay | still, the stars exist before we point telescopes at them |
| 23:02.43 | findlay | < SpecialK> Stars are natural phenomena while computers are not. |
| 23:02.55 | findlay | just trying to understand what you meant by that |
| 23:03.29 | SpecialK | <findlay> still, the stars exist before we point telescopes at them |
| 23:03.36 | SpecialK | pretty much that |
| 23:04.10 | findlay | but then you said something like the logic behind software exsted before computers |
| 23:05.19 | SpecialK | yes, logical principles are discovered just like other scientific prinicples. |
| 23:05.25 | findlay | both the computers and telescopes are artificial |
| 23:05.40 | findlay | means of practicing the science |
| 23:05.47 | elg | findlay: what are your feelings on math? |
| 23:06.12 | findlay | elg: what aspects of math? |
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| 23:06.29 | elg | all of them |
| 23:06.53 | elg | the integral, for example. |
| 23:06.54 | SpecialK | I would think that the idea of software is one of the crowning theories/Laws of CS. We attribute its discovery to Turing. |
| 23:07.54 | findlay | math is philosophy naturalis, among the most abstract philosophies, practical, fantastic, beautiful, wonderfully complicated |
| 23:09.06 | elg | ok, so what does that mean? |
| 23:09.45 | findlay | more closely subject to the method of rigorous science than other philosophies and also practical and descriptive |
| 23:10.09 | findlay | I don't know. It's hard to define a philosophy (: |
| 23:11.01 | levi | I'm not sure that 'software' is attributable to Turing. In what sense do you mean that? |
| 23:11.53 | elg | well if you can't say anything about math you certainly won't get anywhere talking about CS |
| 23:12.05 | jlp_work | anybody looking for a QA job? you have to know lotus notes |
| 23:13.31 | SpecialK | Turing is credited with the idea of a universal computing machine. I was saying Software is the set of instructions that directs a universal machine to a specific job. |
| 23:14.31 | findlay | elg: what kind of definition do you have in mind? |
| 23:14.48 | elg | no definition |
| 23:15.23 | levi | Babbage had the concept of a programmable computing machine first, but I guess Turing's formulation was closer to what our software is today. |
| 23:16.02 | findlay | Leibnitz had a concept of a programmable computing machine |
| 23:16.45 | elg | mathematics has no scientific method |
| 23:17.14 | findlay | what does it have? |
| 23:17.21 | elg | yet we have mathematical sciences |
| 23:17.38 | elg | math is about description and prediction |
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| 23:18.26 | levi | Math was a science before the Enlightenment came about and changed all our definitions of such things. |
| 23:18.36 | findlay | there is a great deal of mathematics researched for its own sake |
| 23:18.57 | Hhhhh | math is awesome |
| 23:19.00 | levi | Science is from the Latin scientia, meaning knowledge. |
| 23:21.21 | levi | Interesting: Mathematics and Computer Science fall in the 'Q' classification in the Library of Congress, which includes everything else we call science. |
| 23:22.25 | findlay | what really gets me is when chemists try to classify all science as subsets of chemistry (: |
| 23:22.58 | levi | Bah, chemistry is just a branch of physics! ;) |
| 23:23.34 | findlay | I don't know whether that's a valid assertion |
| 23:23.59 | levi | Bertrand Russell's favorite definition of mathematics: "the subject in which we never know what we are talking about nor whether what we are saying is right." |
| 23:24.19 | findlay | the motivation of chemists seems to be fundamentally different from physicsts |
| 23:24.44 | levi | findlay: A sufficiently advanced model of subatomic physics ought to predict the same outcomes that chemistry models. |
| 23:25.28 | findlay | still, I don't think it invalidates chemistry as a science |
| 23:25.37 | levi | I don't either. |
| 23:25.49 | levi | Thus the ;) |
| 23:25.51 | findlay | it's a different way of looking at things, and heterogeny in basic research is a Good Thing |
| 23:28.14 | elg | "you will discover that software engineering has accepted as its charter 'How to program if you cannot.'" |
| 23:28.17 | elg | lol |
| 23:28.39 | levi | elg: Ahh, reading the Dijkstra talk? :) |
| 23:28.56 | elg | ya |
| 23:29.16 | levi | I envy his handwriting. |
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| 23:30.46 | jsmith-away | elg: So now you're saying that there's a difference between software engineering and programming? And Computer Science is something else too? |
| 23:31.08 | jsmith-away | s/agress/agrees/ |
| 23:31.23 | elg | yup |
| 23:31.50 | levi | Programming is a well-defined term, while software engineering is not. :) |
| 23:31.58 | jsmith-away | Wow -- nice to know I was right about it all these years, looking from the outside in. |
| 23:32.32 | Peregrine | I came up with some definitions for "Programmer", "Developer" & "Software Engineer" based on experience. Link: |
| 23:32.49 | goozbach | I blame canada |
| 23:32.52 | goozbach | and Peregrine |
| 23:32.54 | levi | Amusingly, I am now considered by my company to be a hardware engineer. :) |
| 23:33.25 | emcnabb | dang Canada |
| 23:33.30 | Peregrine | Check out [ https://www.openbrainstem.net/wiki/index.php/OpenBrainstem:About ]. |
| 23:34.00 | Peregrine | Read that then blame me goozbach ... if you can, eh? |
| 23:34.32 | levi | Peregrine: Dijkstra would totally disagree with you. :) |
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| 23:34.59 | Peregrine | Prolly ... but it's been too long since I read it, so I came up with my own :) . |
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| 23:38.43 | levi | He views 'programming' as a formal discipline, and 'software engineering' as a misunderstanding of the nature of programming. |
| 23:38.55 | Peregrine | Oh, I hadn't heard that Dijkstra died. That's too bad. |
| 23:39.49 | Peregrine | Well, I'm not disagreeing with those definitions of the disciplines ... I was talking about the practitioners. |
| 23:40.18 | findlay | same meanings, just different match up of superficial terms |
| 23:41.01 | Hhhhh | there is a difference between software engineering and programming |
| 23:41.13 | findlay | and it's this big: : |
| 23:41.17 | Hhhhh | yup |
| 23:41.31 | findlay | I knew it |
| 23:41.32 | Peregrine | I've met too many ppl who call themselves "Programmers" to think of a programmer in Dijkstra's terms. |
| 23:41.42 | Peregrine | :) |
| 23:41.42 | Hhhhh | one thing is architecting a big application, something different is some little scripting here and there in PHP |
| 23:41.46 | jsmith-away | findlay: I wish it were that small... |
| 23:41.57 | findlay | (: |
| 23:42.11 | Hhhhh | personally, I think web programming isn't computer science |
| 23:42.33 | Hhhhh | it's just a skill |
| 23:42.35 | levi | Well, not too many people really believe that Dijkstra was correct about his idea of what programming is. |
| 23:42.50 | levi | Hhhhh: Computer science can be done relating to web programming, though. |
| 23:43.14 | Hhhhh | levi, making a web server from the ground up could be. Certainly some PHP or ASP webapp isn't |
| 23:43.24 | levi | But simply writing a web app in php is probably not computer science in any meaningful sense. |
| 23:43.38 | Hhhhh | it's not anything scientific, really |
| 23:43.46 | findlay | yuh huh |
| 23:43.46 | Hhhhh | not much thought process into it |
| 23:44.11 | levi | Defining the REST model and using it to reason about how web applications can scale is computer science, though. |
| 23:44.27 | Peregrine | I wouldn't say that writing something in PHP is not practicing programming, but then, I actually can program in PHP, unlike 80% of "PHP web developers". |
| 23:45.14 | Peregrine | levi is right, and I've done that...built some pretty sizable large scale apps in PHP. |
| 23:45.14 | levi | Writing any program is practicing programming, but not necessarily practicing computer science. |
| 23:45.25 | Peregrine | OK, I'll give you that. |
| 23:45.32 | Hhhhh | levi is right |
| 23:45.36 | findlay | ahh, new definitions |
| 23:45.38 | findlay | (: |
| 23:45.42 | Hhhhh | new, lol |
| 23:46.03 | Peregrine | But do you define "practicing computer science" as abstraction or abstraction->pratical? |
| 23:46.28 | findlay | I'm not sure how the definitions should be allocated |
| 23:46.51 | levi | I believe computer science is an intellectual discipline, and it can be practiced as mathematics or physics can. |
| 23:47.26 | Peregrine | Well, I'm not, either. All I know is that I have some notions (pre-conceived?) at this point of how I *understand* and, therefore, *use* the terms. |
| 23:47.36 | levi | Writing a program may be, but is not necessarily, part of the practice of computer science. It's the context in which the program is written that makes the difference. |
| 23:47.53 | Peregrine | True. |
| 23:49.21 | findlay | context or purpose? |
| 23:49.42 | levi | Writing a program may also be part of the practice of molecular biology, or meteorology. |
| 23:49.48 | findlay | if it has purpose, then it must not be science (: |
| 23:50.10 | findlay | levi: like the difference between pure and applied math |
| 23:52.53 | levi | Science may also have pure and applied branches. |
| 23:53.11 | levi | Certainly computer science has pure and applied branches. |
