| 00:04.26 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) |
| 00:06.44 | harleypig | ARGH. You were right the first time tensai. It *is* at the top of the Makefile. |
| 00:06.54 | harleypig | env var EXTRA_VERSION |
| 00:07.10 | harleypig | but it's hard coded, so I have to modify the Makefile itself. |
| 00:08.03 | harleypig | Hmmm ... there's also LOCALVERSION ... maybe I'm better off using that.\ |
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| 00:34.49 | goozbach | I blame canada |
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| 01:42.21 | goozbach | I LOVE BASEBALL!!! |
| 01:42.38 | xbmodder_lappy | coo; |
| 01:43.20 | goozbach | the WBC onESPN |
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| 02:02.46 | goozbach | it's a good thing that we don't watch movies like Rambo for the dialog. |
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| 03:31.38 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 03:31.46 | xbmodder_lappy | findlay, Don't you hate it when that happens? |
| 03:32.43 | goozbach | yous guys are boring |
| 03:32.50 | goozbach | I'm going to dave and busters |
| 03:33.41 | emcnabb | goozbach: you are boring |
| 03:37.30 | atoponce | everyone is watching march madness |
| 03:39.20 | maquis | actually, there's a good number of people at the uug meeting :) |
| 03:39.27 | maquis | that's where everyone is |
| 03:40.33 | atoponce | ahh. |
| 03:40.39 | atoponce | i guess that is okay :) |
| 03:40.46 | maquis | :) |
| 03:41.35 | atoponce | so that means, then, that they are probably watching march madness at the meeting? |
| 03:41.51 | maquis | atoponce: nope :) |
| 03:41.59 | maquis | learning about php on trax :) |
| 03:42.16 | atoponce | howto setup tv tuner in linux |
| 03:42.26 | maquis | haha |
| 03:42.27 | atoponce | and show a demo |
| 03:42.36 | maquis | already had those meetings :) |
| 03:42.43 | atoponce | bummer! :) |
| 04:14.52 | levi | Ew, php |
| 04:15.15 | levi | I just tried out the Xgl livecd on my semi-new computer. |
| 04:15.30 | levi | It worked pretty well, aside from not getting the X config right at first. |
| 04:19.26 | xbmodder_lappy | what is "dave and busters" |
| 04:19.37 | xbmodder_lappy | levi, you mean korraraa? |
| 04:21.37 | xbmodder_lappy | You know Atarack is an official sponsor of them? |
| 04:23.18 | diesel_ | goozbach: Why don't you go jump out of a flying car or something similar |
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| 04:40.16 | RyanE_ | Xgl livecd didn't work on my desktop, but it's not exactly *New*. |
| 04:40.36 | RyanE_ | and xbmodder_lappy, yeah, korroaraa is what I tried. |
| 04:40.44 | xbmodder_lappy | cool. |
| 04:41.07 | RyanE_ | but my hardware isn't that great on that machine. |
| 04:41.15 | xbmodder_lappy | me and nick125 are official korroaraa sponsors, would you like to support your favorite XGL liveCD ;-) |
| 04:49.27 | levi | I had to turn off the goofy wobbly thing, but the other effects were cool and not too intrusive. |
| 04:49.47 | levi | And I loved being able to drag windows around without having to watch them slowly repaint. |
| 04:53.46 | goozbach | xbmodder_lappy: it's a place you can't get into unless your over 21 |
| 04:53.52 | xbmodder_lappy | oh... |
| 04:53.53 | xbmodder_lappy | great. |
| 04:54.14 | goozbach | s/your/you're/ |
| 04:54.34 | goozbach | it's a bar/resturant/arcade/ |
| 04:55.39 | xbmodder_lappy | Sounds fun. |
| 04:55.57 | xbmodder_lappy | arcade + bar sounds a little odd, but still fun nonetheless |
| 04:58.25 | goozbach | ohh it's fun |
| 04:58.43 | goozbach | more so because it's not over-run with punk kids |
| 04:59.03 | goozbach | and they serve drinks as you play games for hours on end |
| 05:01.08 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
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| 06:29.38 | xbmodder_lappy | I hate allergy shots |
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| 07:18.13 | findlay | ~shoot allergens at xbmodder_lappy |
| 07:18.16 | ibot | ACTION shoots allergens at xbmodder_lappy in the eye with a quantum singularity weapon! |
| 07:18.40 | xbmodder_lappy | ~lart findlay |
| 07:27.37 | findlay | boring |
| 07:27.58 | findlay | and I'm on gentoo testing too |
| 07:28.20 | findlay | maybe I need a more high maintaince distro |
| 07:28.30 | nick125_ | LOL |
| 07:29.39 | xbmodder_lappy | try this: |
| 07:32.13 | findlay | try that? |
| 07:32.39 | nick125_ | yes |
| 07:32.55 | xbmodder_lappy | cp /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask /etc/portage/package.unmask |
| 07:33.01 | nick125_ | sadly, gentoo isnt high maintaince enough..:P |
| 07:33.02 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: LOL |
| 07:33.07 | xbmodder_lappy | and "echo > /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask" |
| 07:33.16 | nick125_ | I did that once.. |
| 07:33.20 | nick125_ | a long time ago |
| 07:33.59 | findlay | you mean gentoo unstable |
| 07:34.16 | findlay | -* |
| 07:34.21 | nick125_ | thats worse then unstable |
| 07:34.26 | xbmodder_lappy | yeah |
| 07:34.29 | nick125_ | thats like..gentoo total reckage |
| 07:34.33 | xbmodder_lappy | thats like b0rked |
| 07:34.41 | nick125_ | I soo want to unmask gnome 2.14!! |
| 07:35.05 | nick125_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:35.05 | nick125_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:35.05 | nick125_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:35.06 | nick125_ | gah |
| 07:35.30 | findlay | 2.14 isn't even in portage yet |
| 07:35.31 | xbmodder_lappy | try this: http://tinyurl.com/ruasp |
| 07:35.43 | nick125_ | findlay: it is..its just masked and incomplete |
| 07:36.00 | findlay | no way, I just synced about two hours ago |
| 07:36.38 | findlay | I want the latest cvs versions of all packages on my system |
| 07:36.40 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125, Stop it! |
| 07:36.43 | nick125_ | example #1: |
| 07:36.43 | findlay | that would be fun |
| 07:36.46 | nick125_ | http://packages.gentoo.org/ebuilds/?gnome-panel-2.14.0 |
| 07:36.54 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: its on my box.. |
| 07:36.56 | xbmodder_lappy | oh, wtf.... |
| 07:37.09 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125_, stop logging in |
| 07:37.10 | nick125_ | I just emerged it an hour ago |
| 07:37.14 | nick125_ | to what? |
| 07:37.17 | nick125_ | oh :p |
| 07:37.47 | nick125_ | wewt! |
| 07:37.55 | nick125_ | glibc only took 34 minutes to compile |
| 07:38.11 | levi | Silly kids. |
| 07:38.12 | nick125_ | wow..on the same box: |
| 07:38.13 | nick125_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:38.13 | nick125_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:38.34 | levi | findlay: Haskell is a pretty fun language so far. |
| 07:38.48 | nick125_ | findlay: what gcc version? |
| 07:38.52 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125_, I am going to strangle you... |
| 07:39.05 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: what did I do.. |
| 07:39.24 | nick125_ | Portage 2.1_pre5-r2 (default-linux/x86/2005.1, gcc-4.1.0, glibc-2.4-r0, 2.6.15-gentoo i686) |
| 07:39.27 | nick125_ | :D |
| 07:40.01 | findlay | nick125_: 4.0.3. I'm not jumping to 4.1.0 until it's unmasked because I don't want to recompile it again for nothing |
| 07:40.21 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125, your "prints" |
| 07:40.26 | TheTiGuR | ....what does it take to be able to post the the plug mailing list? |
| 07:40.28 | xbmodder_lappy | really there should only be about a dozen |
| 07:40.41 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: lol |
| 07:40.51 | levi | TheTiGuR: You just have to be subscribed |
| 07:41.05 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125_, what is the "control" object named? |
| 07:41.06 | TheTiGuR | Hrmmm.... |
| 07:41.14 | levi | TheTiGuR: And probably you have to email from the address you subscribed with |
| 07:41.17 | findlay | nick125_: oh yeah? Portage 2.1_pre6-r3 (default-linux/amd64/2006.0/no-multilib, gcc-4.0.3, glibc-2.4-r1, 2.6.16-rc6 x86_64) |
| 07:41.21 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: what do you mean? |
| 07:41.37 | TheTiGuR | I'm subscribed, but I just got a post rejected indicating I'm not allowed |
| 07:41.51 | nick125_ | findlay: lol.. |
| 07:41.59 | findlay | levi: wasn't haskell developed by the same guy who developed lisp? |
| 07:42.25 | levi | I don't think so. |
| 07:42.29 | nick125_ | findlay: I just emerged glibc...damnit :P |
| 07:42.48 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125, the xencontrol object... |
| 07:42.57 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125, slight problem... |
| 07:43.06 | xbmodder_lappy | the reboot class is executed before the headerage |
| 07:43.08 | findlay | TheTiGuR: did you cc to the plug list? I remember there is something about that to prevent cross posting |
| 07:43.17 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: I did that on purpose |
| 07:43.27 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: so the plugin has to print the headers |
| 07:43.36 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: I did that for many reasons |
| 07:44.11 | xbmodder_lappy | see, that doesn't work _that well_ |
| 07:44.21 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: 1) so you can send cookies, etc; 2) so the module can send its own title and such |
| 07:44.23 | TheTiGuR | I think I see my problem.....subscribed with a different address....gotta make sure I send from the appropriate cath-all address =p |
| 07:44.40 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125_, It prints everything in reverse order... |
| 07:44.42 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: just call arg.print_headers(title) and arg.print_footer() |
| 07:44.43 | xbmodder_lappy | how'd you pull that off? |
| 07:44.53 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: call those in the module.. |
| 07:44.55 | nick125_ | lol |
| 07:45.16 | xbmodder_lappy | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:45.27 | xbmodder_lappy | append "S" |
| 07:45.41 | xbmodder_lappy | oh, great |
| 07:45.47 | nick125_ | yeah i couldnt remeber it.. |
| 07:46.09 | findlay | what are you guys talking about? |
| 07:46.32 | xbmodder_lappy | Our thing... |
| 07:46.43 | xbmodder_lappy | Atarack |
| 07:46.50 | nick125_ | Portage 2.1_pre6-r3 (default-linux/x86/2006.0, gcc-4.1.0, glibc-2.4-r0, 2.6.15-gentoo i686) |
| 07:46.53 | nick125_ | :P |
| 07:46.56 | nick125_ | there! |
| 07:47.10 | findlay | budding silicon valley teenage millionaires |
| 07:47.17 | nick125_ | lol |
| 07:47.25 | findlay | and on our very own #utah |
| 07:47.54 | xbmodder_lappy | lighttpd died... |
| 07:48.22 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: fun |
| 07:48.24 | findlay | Linux 2.6.16-rc6 |
| 07:48.29 | xbmodder_lappy | findlay, I don't think everyone in #utah looks at it that way... |
| 07:48.50 | nick125_ | findlay: i don't want to ruin my uptime to upgrade kernel! |
| 07:49.23 | findlay | nick125_: nonsense, just use some UML or xen trickery to swap live kernels |
| 07:49.37 | nick125_ | Xen breaks nvidia |
| 07:49.57 | findlay | ~break brittle proprietary nVidia |
| 07:50.22 | nick125_ | I'm running xen-sources 2.6.16_rc5 on my lappy |
| 07:53.39 | findlay | although my kernel config hardly changes between versions |
| 07:53.46 | nick125_ | mm-sources breaks stuff |
| 07:53.55 | findlay | yeah. Fun |
| 07:54.03 | nick125_ | but, if you want to make it even higher maintaince, go for it! |
| 07:54.11 | xbmodder_lappy | nick125_, let me have some time with the code.. |
| 07:54.12 | xbmodder_lappy | alone |
| 07:54.35 | nick125_ | xbmodder_lappy: noo...i dont want you doing evil things to the code!! |
| 07:55.00 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 07:55.06 | findlay | I want portage to update my system to the latest CVS/SVN snapshot of each package! |
| 07:55.16 | nick125_ | findlay: only some packages have CVS/SVN |
| 07:55.24 | findlay | that way I'll be continuously compiling! |
| 07:55.32 | findlay | for nothing!! |
| 07:55.48 | nick125_ | go find all the highly experimental overlays |
| 07:55.55 | nick125_ | they have CVS/SVN code (some of them) |
| 07:58.39 | TheTiGuR | main_menu.html |
| 07:58.57 | TheTiGuR | grr.....supid right click |
| 07:59.00 | TheTiGuR | <slaps putty> |
| 08:01.10 | xbmodder_lappy | one down |
| 08:12.28 | TheTiGuR | <slaps putty> |
| 08:12.42 | TheTiGuR | I need to not be near a computer |
| 08:12.59 | TheTiGuR | just not worth the stupid things I do because I am half awake |
| 08:33.01 | QBFreak | anyone know how to search a file from the bottom up with grep or something else? |
| 08:33.32 | nick125_ | bottom up? |
| 08:33.41 | QBFreak | I want the last occurance in the file |
| 08:34.14 | nick125_ | cat "blah" | grep -i "what you want" # then loook at the last line :) |
| 08:34.33 | QBFreak | yeah, it's just a lot to go through |
| 08:34.49 | QBFreak | only 86,451 lines |
| 08:36.30 | findlay | grep <pattern> file | tail -n 1 |
| 08:37.11 | QBFreak | I'm aware of means to find the last result after searching the whole thing, I was trying to be efficient :p |
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| 13:54.51 | elg | happy u2 day |
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| 14:26.16 | graphyx | morning |
| 14:40.02 | goozbach | perfect timing |
| 14:40.44 | goozbach | i JUST finished setting up for the exam when there was a fire drill |
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| 14:56.20 | graphyx | goozbach: Did you get back in there to start the test over? |
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| 15:39.15 | monkatwork | Spoon! |
| 15:39.32 | graphyx | I don't know if we want to fork spr. |
| 15:39.37 | graphyx | I think having one of him around is enough. |
| 15:40.40 | spr | What, you don't like me? It's not like two of me would make the channel much busier |
| 15:41.15 | graphyx | IT's like salt.. a little helps, but too much ruins it. |
| 15:41.37 | graphyx | I'm just trying to be funny that's all. |
| 15:41.54 | tensai | now graphyx, he's more like peas. a little bit makes you sick but a lot will kill you. |
| 15:42.34 | spr | ~lart tensai |
| 15:43.25 | Jayce | tensai, sounds like you need to watch alton's pea show :) |
| 15:45.11 | spr | ~onjoin spr |
| 15:45.32 | tensai | ~onjoin _default spr |
| 15:45.32 | ibot | onjoin for spr set by findlay on Thu Mar 16 23:17:04 2006: "Fork!" |
| 15:46.15 | spr | ah, so that's how it works. |
| 15:48.32 | graphyx | I don't usually eat my peas with a fork. |
| 15:50.30 | spr | what about a spork? |
| 15:50.52 | tensai | spr: he probably set it in pm which defaults to _default rather than the channel (since there is no channel) |
| 15:51.08 | tensai | if that makes any sense |
| 15:51.23 | graphyx | spr: I don't usually use sporks. |
| 15:51.32 | tensai | Jayce: I must have missed that one. doesn't sound familiar. what season? |
| 15:51.56 | Jayce | can't remember offhand |
| 15:52.06 | tensai | old kitchen or new kitchen? |
| 15:53.39 | Jayce | tensai, remote, it's a newer one iirc |
| 15:53.52 | Jayce | he plays a 'specialist' brought in to get a kid to eat peas |
| 15:54.59 | Jayce | yeah, season 9 episode 02 |
| 15:55.16 | tensai | ooh, I can't wait for episode 20, Your Pad or Mine (Thai) |
| 15:55.39 | Jayce | we've got that on tape to watch here today :) |
| 15:55.49 | Jayce | http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/GEFP/index.htm |
| 15:55.50 | brac | [GEFP] |
| 15:57.21 | tensai | yeah, now I remember it. I skipped that one because, yuck. maybe I will give peas a chance though. |
| 15:57.46 | goozbach | luckily I hadn't started the exam yet graphyx |
| 15:57.58 | Jayce | tensai, they can be really good, just avoid canned ones :) |
| 15:58.39 | goozbach | I LOVE Good Eats |
| 15:58.51 | goozbach | I can't wait to have a kitchen again!!! |
| 15:58.55 | Jayce | goozbach, too bad you aren't here, we usually watch it at lunchtime |
| 15:59.12 | Jayce | although we are doing the dilbert series right now (had run through all the current GE's) |
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| 16:09.47 | goozbach | dang |
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| 16:15.41 | tensai | eek. there's something you never want to see from a cron job. "No space left on device" |
| 16:17.21 | goozbach | tensai: that's what LVM is for... |
| 16:17.23 | goozbach | geez |
| 16:17.49 | goozbach | just last week I was having that problem... and was upset that my new hard drive was already full |
| 16:18.05 | goozbach | then I sheepishly remembered... "oh yeah I set up LVM" |
| 16:18.26 | goozbach | I had 20G of unalocated space |
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| 16:22.10 | Jayce | ~lart netapp |
| 16:22.11 | tensai | unfortunately this is an old box with no LVM. luckily it was just the root partition, so no big deal |
| 16:26.27 | levi | Oooh, cool. Someone implemented John Backus's FP language from his Turing Award speech on top of Scheme: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/eggs/fp.html |
| 16:26.28 | brac | [Eggs Unlimited - fp] |
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| 16:37.54 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
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| 16:56.31 | goozbach | linux printing? |
| 16:56.38 | goozbach | what did cups do to you? |
| 16:56.54 | goozbach | imagine if he was forced to use lpd still... |
| 16:57.09 | monkatwork | apparently dragged him into a field, beat him with a bag of door knobs, urinated on him, and lit him on fire |
| 16:57.50 | sjansen | goozbach: I'm trying to script the printing of a stinking PDF. |
| 16:58.21 | sjansen | pdf2ps can't do it, pdftops can't handle, acroread a a command line filter can't do it |
| 16:58.24 | harleypig | sjansen: well, if you hadn't peed on it, it wouldn't be smelly |
| 16:58.44 | emcnabb | sjansen needs an anger management class |
| 16:58.50 | sjansen | The only way to successfully print it to open the file in acroread then clicky clicky to print. |
| 16:58.55 | emcnabb | Guru Labs doesn't have one yet |
| 16:59.06 | emcnabb | maybe sjansen would learn a lot by writing it |
| 17:00.53 | emcnabb | I want everyone to know that sjansen just came over here and punched me |
| 17:03.52 | goozbach | I see the violence inherent in the system |
| 17:03.59 | goozbach | emcnabb: are you being opressed? |
| 17:05.59 | sjansen | Today is goozbach's last day as a Guru. After today he'll just be normal goozbach. |
| 17:06.14 | goozbach | sjansen: I'll be in on monday for a bit |
| 17:06.45 | goozbach | just to turn in my key, keycard, Bryan's stuff, and pick up my books |
| 17:07.03 | goozbach | but my new life will be so much cooler |
| 17:07.27 | goozbach | plus I'll be consistantly ~2500 away from sjansen |
| 17:07.37 | Jayce | that is cool |
| 17:07.48 | goozbach | and I'll be learning to surf |
| 17:08.06 | *** join/#utah atoponce (n=aaron@c-24-2-85-66.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:08.14 | goozbach | oh yeah... I plan on becoming a tan person |
| 17:08.43 | Jayce | dunno.. |
| 17:08.43 | sjansen | ~mock Jayce |
| 17:08.45 | ibot | ACTION pulls Jayce's pants down and shows the world Jayce's pink spotted underwear |
| 17:08.57 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 17:09.28 | Jayce^ | ~threaten sjansen |
| 17:09.46 | sjansen | ~taunt Jayce^ |
| 17:09.47 | ibot | ACTION folds a paper football and flicks it at Jayce^ |
| 17:10.20 | goozbach | ~rot1 IBM |
| 17:10.20 | ibot | JCN |
| 17:10.32 | Jayce^ | ~announce_that_sjansen_is_teaching_the_next_three_plug_meetings |
| 17:11.11 | *** join/#utah RyanE (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:12.54 | goozbach | ~rot27 IBM |
| 17:12.54 | ibot | JCN |
| 17:12.59 | goozbach | ~rot26 IBM |
| 17:12.59 | ibot | IBM |
| 17:13.05 | goozbach | ~rot25 IBM |
| 17:13.05 | ibot | HAL |
| 17:14.39 | maquis | ~rot25 goozbach |
| 17:14.39 | ibot | fnnyazbg |
| 17:17.35 | Jayce^ | funny, a$$ bag? |
| 17:17.54 | maquis | ~language Jayce^ :) |
| 17:17.56 | ibot | ACTION grabs Jayce^ :) by the ear and washes Jayce^ :)'s mouth out with soap |
| 17:17.56 | *** join/#utah ECS (n=ECS@128.187.183.63) |
| 17:18.02 | maquis | ~lart ECS |
| 17:19.02 | mheath | good morning |
| 17:19.02 | mheath | ugh |
| 17:20.24 | Jayce^ | hey, you did the rot... |
| 17:22.05 | atoponce | good morning |
| 17:23.02 | maquis | Jayce^: true... :) |
| 17:31.23 | sjansen | What's the easiest way to remove duplicate entries from a list in perl? |
| 17:31.38 | maquis | NI3 is pretty cool stuff... tap it and it blows up :) |
| 17:31.47 | maquis | very loud |
| 17:41.12 | Jayce^ | sjansen, http://search.cpan.org/~jfitz/List-Uniq-0.10/lib/List/Uniq.pm |
| 17:44.11 | Jayce^ | thought there was a method in the List::Util, but not seeing it in there |
| 17:45.57 | Jayce^ | ah, yes http://search.cpan.org/~vparseval/List-MoreUtils-0.19/lib/List/MoreUtils.pm |
| 17:46.00 | Jayce^ | MoreUtils.. |
| 17:46.27 | Jayce^ | iirc that's a built in package since 5.6.something |
| 17:46.38 | Jayce^ | has the uniq method |
| 17:50.18 | Jayce^ | well, uniq isnt' what you want there, has other methods.. |
| 17:50.47 | Jayce^ | otherwise, look at the right hand side in the perl code I posted for the recent quiz, it does just that |
| 17:51.40 | Jayce^ | my %seen; my @distinct = grep { ! $seen{$_} } @array; |
| 17:52.02 | Jayce^ | add the ++ after the hashref |
| 17:52.12 | Jayce^ | so it puts something in |
| 18:06.48 | harleypig | http://qdb.us/56852 |
| 18:06.49 | brac | [QDB: Quote #56852] |
| 18:07.45 | harleypig | sjansen: sub uniq { my %u ; return grep { ! $u{ $_ }++ } split /\W+/, ${ $_[0] } } |
| 18:08.13 | harleypig | That's what I usually use to get rid of dupes in an array. |
| 18:12.29 | *** join/#utah SpecialZ (n=mse@128.187.149.199) |
| 18:13.29 | harleypig | sjansen: woops ... sorry, that was a modification, pulling uniq words out of a text. |
| 18:13.53 | harleypig | replace 'split ...' with @_ |
| 18:14.00 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@128.187.155.92) |
| 18:24.29 | Uncle_Jesse | how do I find out the usage info for a "\" command in postgresql? |
| 18:25.57 | Uncle_Jesse | (aka \copy) |
| 18:26.30 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=misterpu@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 18:29.45 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: perl my_script.pl | sort -u |
| 18:29.46 | Uncle_Jesse | or |
| 18:29.56 | Uncle_Jesse | $list =~ s/(\b\w+\b)(.*?)\s+\1\b/$1$2/s |
| 18:30.02 | Uncle_Jesse | haven't tested the second though |
| 18:33.28 | obfuscated | of course that would only work if your list contains values without spaces |
| 18:33.58 | obfuscated | but I'm sure you could modify it to work with the structure of your list |
| 18:34.23 | *** join/#utah neybar_work (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 18:40.12 | harleypig | Dangit ... I'm still wrapping my brain around grub ... I keep getting kernel panics trying to boot into my shiny new kernel with 'unable to open /dev/sda#', please give valid root commm |
| 18:40.21 | harleypig | and |
| 18:41.00 | harleypig | I've got a windows partition on what would be /dev/sda0, /boot on /dev/sda1, / on /dev/sda2 and /home on /dev/sda3 |
| 18:41.03 | harleypig | anypointers |
| 18:41.13 | harleypig | ? |
| 18:41.50 | QBFreak | can it boot scsi devices? I've had that issue before (but I didn't know what I was doing :) |
| 18:43.12 | harleypig | Yeah, Kanotix boots it fine, my original kernel after a stage 3 boots it just fine, I'm just not doing some quite correctly. |
| 18:44.27 | sjansen | there is no such thing as /dev/sda0 |
| 18:52.21 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 18:53.36 | elg | http://hans.fugal.net/music/bwv893.ogg |
| 18:54.17 | elg | my wavetable synthesis project on a motorola 56K dsp evaluation board |
| 18:54.41 | elg | which was written in assembly. lots of fun! |
| 18:58.45 | levi | Nifty. :) |
| 18:59.32 | levi | The little popping artifacts aren't supposed to be there, are they? |
| 19:00.26 | elg | popping? I didn't hear any.. but I forgot my headphones when I went to the lab so I just had the lame-o speakers |
| 19:01.08 | graphyx | Yes the static hissing sound in the background is a feature.. not a bug. ;) |
| 19:01.31 | levi | They were rather tiny pops, and they may be from my end. |
| 19:01.45 | elg | it's probably because it was done at 16khz |
| 19:02.13 | elg | and some of the sharp envelope attacks would cause aliasing |
| 19:02.30 | elg | but that's what it was supposed to be at, 16khz, so *shrug* |
| 19:02.47 | elg | it also might have been that computer's cheap sound card when capturing, or maybe the transition to ogg |
| 19:03.03 | elg | i hear them now, with my headphones. probably aliasing |
| 19:03.23 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@38.119.178.10) |
| 19:04.03 | elg | it's not particularly interesting synthesis, but it's fun that it was done in assembly |
| 19:04.10 | elg | on a little dsp chip |
| 19:08.46 | levi | Does sound like fun. |
| 19:10.39 | *** join/#utah Kuyaedz (n=Kuyaedz@65.106.115.194.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:21.31 | *** part/#utah ECS (n=ECS@128.187.183.63) |
| 19:39.27 | harleypig | sjansen: Hmmm ... so / would be on /dev/sda2 right? |
| 19:39.35 | harleypig | no, /dev/sda3 |
| 19:39.44 | harleypig | 1 - win, 2 - boot, 3 - root |
| 19:40.06 | harleypig | Is that what the root command is referring to in grub.conf? |
| 19:40.32 | sjansen | probably |
| 19:42.03 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=Hhhhhhhh@158.91.201.220) |
| 19:42.27 | Hhhhh | waaa |
| 19:45.25 | maquis | http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060314-6381.html <-- :( |
| 19:45.31 | mheath | harleypig: No |
| 19:45.42 | mheath | You're going to want to set your root to whatever /boot is |
| 19:46.00 | mheath | The root command specifies the working environment of the grub console |
| 19:46.35 | mheath | That is, after you set the root to whatever /boot is, you can boot "/kernel" assuming your kernel is usually at /boot/kernel |
| 19:47.30 | goozbach | TimRiker: think it'd be possible to get ibot to join #waa as well? |
| 19:47.37 | Hhhhh | maquis, I don't think it's that bad |
| 19:47.43 | maquis | Hhhhh: i do |
| 19:47.46 | Hhhhh | why? |
| 19:47.52 | Hhhhh | remember, it' |
| 19:47.59 | Hhhhh | k |
| 19:49.53 | harleypig | mheath: woops ... wrong root command. I meant thte one on the kernel line. |
| 19:50.18 | harleypig | I gave up though ... I'm going through the reinstall again and see if I can do it right the first this second time. :] |
| 19:50.48 | findlay | ~channels |
| 19:51.13 | mheath | harleypig: ah. |
| 19:51.20 | mheath | harleypig: what are you installing? |
| 19:51.36 | harleypig | gentoo 2006.0 on a AMD64 Dual Core laptop |
| 19:52.15 | findlay | do each of the cores orbit each other? |
| 19:52.17 | harleypig | You missed all the fun last friday didn't you. :] Jayce^ got everybody drooling over my laptop specs and then told them I was installing windows on it. :> |
| 19:53.01 | findlay | a binary core system. I bet one is a black hole |
| 19:53.39 | harleypig | nick125_: how far along are you? |
| 19:53.49 | findlay | why recompile the whole system? |
| 19:54.05 | mheath | I like gentoo, but they've been making some changes I disagree with |
| 19:54.08 | findlay | just fix_libtool_files.sh and you're done |
| 19:54.11 | mheath | like the drop of support for stage 1 and stage 2 installs |
| 19:54.14 | harleypig | mheath: like what? |
| 19:54.14 | nick125_ | harleypig: package 15 of 622 |
| 19:54.21 | mheath | And, I went to try SELinux gentoo on one of my computers |
| 19:54.32 | mheath | Their *hardened* liveCD is running X11! |
| 19:54.34 | harleypig | nick125_: ouch ... that's going on the top shelf |
| 19:54.37 | nick125_ | mheath: they still support stage 2 last time I checked.. |
| 19:54.39 | mheath | That doesn't make *sense*. |
| 19:54.56 | mheath | Nothing in X11 would even run |
| 19:54.58 | findlay | mheath: if you're doing stage1 do you need support? (: |
| 19:55.08 | harleypig | mheath: which verson? xorg is fairly eacy to secure ... |
| 19:55.09 | mheath | the default security setup caused too many problems |
| 19:55.14 | harleypig | oh |
| 19:55.24 | nick125_ | findlay: but, you don't get the speed differences if you leave it all compiled with gcc 3.4.5 :) |
| 19:55.31 | findlay | ah |
| 19:55.34 | mheath | harleypig: X11 barely started. It spat out thousands of security violation warnings |
| 19:55.38 | mheath | None of the programs would run |
| 19:55.40 | mheath | nothing worked |
| 19:55.46 | findlay | nick125_: I thought you were going from 4.0.? |
| 19:56.10 | nick125_ | findlay: nope, going from 3.4.5 |
| 19:56.40 | goozbach | SELinux is a good example of being TOO smart for a problem |
| 19:57.01 | sjansen | ~haha silly gentoo users |
| 19:57.02 | ibot | ACTION beats silly gentoo users about the head with the ha ha bat |
| 19:57.26 | nick125_ | not all are silly! |
| 19:57.41 | nick125_ | only the ones that use -O9 then wonder why their system doesnt work anymore |
| 19:57.43 | sjansen | all are silly |
| 19:58.18 | findlay | whoever wrote this music must have been on a cheese overdose |
| 19:58.19 | mheath | indeed =P |
| 20:00.31 | harleypig | Congrats. It'll be the worse 3 months of your life you'll look back on fondly. |
| 20:02.57 | mheath | harleypig: Heh, yep |
| 20:03.07 | mheath | I've been through a recruit training with the thing I'm involved with now |
| 20:03.15 | mheath | And I know its nothing in comparison to USMC boot |
| 20:03.27 | mheath | But I hated even that. I think of that, and I think I'm insane. |
| 20:04.11 | mheath | Actually, to be honest, I really don't have a good reason for wanting to go USMC. Something to prove to myself, and the knowledge that if I get some comfy job in the Navy I'll always wonder what the USMC would have been like. |
| 20:04.15 | tensai | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6448213/did/11752290/?GT1=7935 |
| 20:04.43 | tensai | [Drunk driving cases turn on source code] |
| 20:05.45 | Hhhhh | tensai, interesting |
| 20:07.04 | Hhhhh | arguing that people convited of DUI should be able to see the source code is very stupid and petty IMO |
| 20:07.19 | Hhhhh | just a lame half-butted excuse to reduce their sentence |
| 20:07.56 | mheath | harleypig: what was your MOS? I think you might have told me, I can'tremember |
| 20:08.21 | tensai | Hhhhh: see I had the exact opposite reaction. if they're going to convict you with evidence generated by a computer, the basis for that evidence should be examined. |
| 20:09.05 | Hhhhh | tensai, if the machine was approved for legal trials, that should be enough. Should we start investigations on lawyers backgrounds, personal life, etc when presented with oposition in a courtroom? |
| 20:09.09 | mheath | harleypig: and I'm not going to enlist. I'm too young, still 16. However, I moved up a grade at one point and I'll be done with school before I'm 17 (June 19th) |
| 20:09.25 | Hhhhh | if the lawyers credentials are enough, the machine's credentials are likewise |
| 20:09.48 | Hhhhh | "openness" here is an excuse to get their sentence off |
| 20:09.54 | mheath | I'm enlisting June 19th, and they have a ship date June 26th. I was going to as him if, assuming that I go in good shape with all the paperwork and I'm ready to pass the IST, if they could rush me through MEPs in time to ship off on the 26th. |
| 20:10.10 | Hhhhh | they don't have the least interest in the source code, just in putting enough obstacles to the prosecution as possible |
| 20:10.13 | mheath | IST, MEPS. Why is my head so full of acronyms? :P |
| 20:10.14 | Hhhhh | would you disagree with that? |
| 20:10.39 | graphyx | mheath: cuase you like computers. |
| 20:11.02 | mheath | graphyx: IST and MEPs have nothing to do with computers =P |
| 20:11.22 | harleypig | mheath: I don't remember the number the military had for it. I was infantry. |
| 20:11.30 | tensai | I don't doubt they are primarily interested in getting off, but I think the point is a valid one |
| 20:11.41 | Hhhhh | tensai, actual experimentation tests showing the accuracy of the machine should be enough evidence, no need to force anybody to release source code |
| 20:11.43 | mheath | Hhhhh: I agree with both of you. I agree that they're waisting time - however, I think they this information should be open. |
| 20:11.47 | Hhhhh | I don't think it is valid |
| 20:11.54 | harleypig | You can still enlist at 17 (I did) with your parent(s) permission. |
| 20:12.08 | mheath | harleypig: Thats what I'm doing. I'm 16 right now, though. |
| 20:12.25 | mheath | harleypig: I'm enlisting on my birthday. Either the Corp or the Navy |
| 20:12.27 | Hhhhh | they could argue also that because the car they used was a Chevrolte, then the trial can't go on until Chevrolet releases all complete specs of the car (allinformation needs to be there, right?) |
| 20:12.31 | harleypig | ah |
| 20:12.35 | Hhhhh | mheath, why should it |
| 20:12.37 | tene | I remember something like this with someone challenging a speeding ticket asking for the source code to the radar detector. |
| 20:12.41 | Hhhhh | mheath, govn't bought the machines |
| 20:12.55 | mheath | Hhhhh: Its part of the information the jurors need to make a decision in a court case. |
| 20:12.57 | tensai | Hhhhh: the car didn't issue a statement that the defendent had violated a law |
| 20:13.02 | Hhhhh | mheath, govn't responsibilities have nothing to do with the machine's manufacturer's rights |
| 20:13.11 | Hhhhh | mheath, it is not necessary by any means |
| 20:13.32 | tensai | this code is making judgements about the defendent and as such it's methodology should be subject to scrutiny |
| 20:13.37 | mheath | Hhhhh: So. Call me as a witness. I'll tell you that, as a doctor of psychology, I think your criminally insane and should get off. |
| 20:13.38 | Hhhhh | mheath, as I said, plenty of experimentation has been done regarding the accuracy of the machine, and more experimentation could be done at the defendat's request |
| 20:13.46 | mheath | You don't need to know that I recevied my doctorate at mheath university |
| 20:14.08 | Hhhhh | mheath, no, if mheath university has credential (such as the machine's), that should be enough |
| 20:14.15 | Hhhhh | the machine was tested and approved |
| 20:14.36 | Hhhhh | it's not some home-tweaked, modded toaster or something (that runs Linux!!11)(TM) |
| 20:14.48 | findlay | Hhhhh: how does that mean it's infallable? |
| 20:15.11 | Hhhhh | it doesn't have to be |
| 20:15.11 | findlay | Hhhhh: I find your reasoning disturbing |
| 20:15.11 | Hhhhh | law demands proof beyond reasonable doubt |
| 20:15.12 | Hhhhh | I find your illogical |
| 20:15.16 | goozbach | http://qdb.us/48894 <--little language warning, but the story is funny |
| 20:15.18 | brac | [QDB: Quote #48894] |
| 20:15.21 | Hhhhh | s/your/yours |
| 20:15.23 | mheath | Hhhhh: So, you're arguing that simply because a large company designed the thing and it passed some tests, there is no possibility that it will ever malfunction in any way? |
| 20:15.30 | Hhhhh | I meant the reasoning, not you, findlay |
| 20:15.49 | Hhhhh | mheath, if it is malfunction, I doubt that access to the source code will dissipate any doubts |
| 20:16.12 | findlay | Hhhhh: so I guess it's up to the court to detemine what reasonable doubt is |
| 20:16.17 | Hhhhh | and findlay, as I said, law requires proof beyonr resonable doubt, not infallibility |
| 20:16.20 | mheath | Hhhhh: How do you know? |
| 20:16.20 | Hhhhh | true |
| 20:16.24 | mheath | Hhhhh: You "doubt". |
| 20:16.31 | mheath | Hhhhh: not your "certain" |
| 20:16.34 | Hhhhh | mheath, I don't understand your argument |
| 20:16.48 | mheath | Its part of the information that may, in some situations, be necessary for the jury to make an intelligent decision. |
| 20:17.16 | Hhhhh | all I am saying is that releasing the source code accomplished nothing, it isn't necessary and the company that made the machine doesn't have to do that since the machine was reviewed, approved and sold to the govn't |
| 20:17.33 | mheath | Even the smallest most remote possiblity of it malfunctioning necessitates that they have access to that kind of information. |
| 20:17.34 | Hhhhh | mheath, the source code is innecessary |
| 20:17.44 | Hhhhh | unnecessary* |
| 20:17.59 | Hhhhh | the source code will not help clarify anything |
| 20:18.28 | Hhhhh | if sufficient testing was done (and more can ne done), that is more than enough evidence to the jury, and the source code contributes none |
| 20:18.39 | mheath | Hhhhh: Was the source code examined by the testing authority, or just the machines operation? |
| 20:19.05 | Hhhhh | mheath, does it matter? |
| 20:19.13 | mheath | Hhhhh: Let me give you a scenario |
| 20:19.16 | Hhhhh | mheath, this isn't some web application you know |
| 20:19.26 | Hhhhh | it's is the driver of a little machine |
| 20:19.35 | Hhhhh | that simply checks for alcohol content |
| 20:19.38 | mheath | I, being a malcontent and soon to be fired employee in the company that made this, sticks some backdoor or evil thing in the code. |
| 20:19.44 | mheath | its minor |
| 20:19.48 | mheath | Or usually does nothing |
| 20:19.52 | mheath | The machine passes all the tests |
| 20:19.57 | Hhhhh | and if it doesn't fail let's say 99% of the time, it is proof beyond reasonable doubt |
| 20:20.47 | mheath | Hhhhh: But what if the source code reveals that it did fail that time? |
| 20:20.55 | mheath | Hhhhh: Your argument is like..... |
| 20:21.04 | mheath | I take the same path to work at 5:00 every day |
| 20:21.05 | findlay | mheath: that's for the court to decide |
| 20:21.10 | Hhhhh | mheath, I think the company would be liable, but still making the source code available (which include trade secrets and the key to the financial gain of the company) is unnecessary |
| 20:21.18 | mheath | So, it goes without saying, that at 5:00 I was going to work |
| 20:21.23 | mheath | No need to hear from any witnesses! |
| 20:21.26 | mheath | THIS is a *FACT*! |
| 20:21.36 | Hhhhh | mheath, I'm sorry but that is nonsense |
| 20:21.53 | Hhhhh | again, courts need proof beyond "reasonable doubt", not mathematical proof |
| 20:21.54 | mheath | Hhhhh: its the same thing |
| 20:21.57 | findlay | Hhhhh: that's a straw man. Disclosing trade secrets in a sealed court is much different than publishing them in the press |
| 20:22.04 | Hhhhh | and as I said, releasing the source code accomplished nothing |
| 20:22.24 | Hhhhh | findlay, companies have a lot at stake in trade secrets |
| 20:22.36 | findlay | Hhhhh: what does that have to do with anything? |
| 20:22.49 | Hhhhh | I believe that a company should be able to keep it's secrecy if they choose to do so |
| 20:22.53 | mheath | How is this: I take the same route to work at 5:00 daily, so the jury can just assume I was driving to work at 5:00 without having to hear from any witnesses that could potentially say otherwise |
| 20:22.58 | mheath | Any different than this: |
| 20:22.58 | findlay | Hhhhh: the point here is reasonable doubt. Not some company's precious "intellectual property" |
| 20:23.12 | Hhhhh | that releasing the source code not only accomplished nothing (at all) to hjelp the trial, but the company only has to lose for it |
| 20:23.25 | sjansen | Hhhhh: In a court case, if one lawyer starts making up laws the opposing lawyer can go to the books and prove him wrong. |
| 20:23.27 | mheath | The machine returns correct results to our knowlege, so we can assume its always returning correct results and never question it |
| 20:23.41 | findlay | how? one of the jurors was a programmer, and now he's "tainted"? |
| 20:24.03 | Hhhhh | that's silly |
| 20:24.18 | findlay | yeah, and that's what it looks like you're arguing |
| 20:24.19 | sjansen | Hhhhh: If a city decides to "tweak" a radar gun or breahalizer machine to increase revenue, how am I supposed to find that out? Where are the equivalent "books" I can go to? |
| 20:24.31 | Hhhhh | you really buy the "we need to see the code because we need 'full information'"? |
| 20:24.45 | findlay | Hhhhh: again, that's up for the court to decide |
| 20:24.50 | mheath | Hhhhh: so the statement "Hey, I wasn't drunk....This is silly. Can we please at least take a look at how this thing works before you put me in jail?" is illogical and pointless. |
| 20:24.57 | mheath | thats what you're saying |
| 20:25.08 | Hhhhh | mheath, 99.99999% of the time it is |
| 20:25.08 | scott_ | are firefox extensions installed in the profile directory? can I just copy my profile directory between a windows to a linux comp and have all the same stuff? |
| 20:25.11 | sjansen | Yes. Trusting someone because they say "we're from the government, trust us" isn't silly, it's stupid. |
| 20:25.14 | Hhhhh | and that is beyond reasonable doubt |
| 20:25.18 | mheath | Hhhhh: what about the other bit? |
| 20:25.32 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I never said that, you're bringing up something totally inrelated |
| 20:25.36 | findlay | Hhhhh: that's for the court to decide |
| 20:25.46 | mheath | Hhhhh: You're willing to put someone is prison because everyone else were morons? |
| 20:25.50 | mheath | You're willing to take that chance? |
| 20:26.09 | Hhhhh | mheath, the other bit loses because the system is imperfect (we aren't omniscient) and because releasing the source code won't save their hineys either |
| 20:26.17 | Hhhhh | nuff' said |
| 20:26.20 | mheath | Whats the worse that could happen? None of the companies code secrets get published, and (if hes lieing) the guy gets charged for the court fees and the time it took to asses the code |
| 20:26.42 | mheath | If he wasn't lieing, we find out the machine is bad, and an innocent man walks away free. |
| 20:26.59 | sjansen | No, I'm not. How do I know that the gun wasn't rigged. Between 2 and 3pm it's accurate, but during other times it in "revenue collection mode"? |
| 20:27.06 | mheath | Like findlay said, discussing code in a court room is different than publishing it and releasing it to other companies. |
| 20:27.08 | Hhhhh | what if the company doesn't want to trust in the moral integrity and nobility of people in the courtroom or of the defendats? I think the chances of them getting screwed up are not "beyond reasonable doubt" |
| 20:27.43 | findlay | Hhhhh: why should that be a consideration? |
| 20:27.56 | mheath | Hhhhh: The code is a trade secret! Copyright! Possibly trademarked! |
| 20:28.03 | Hhhhh | mheath, that's right |
| 20:28.04 | mheath | Someone releases it, they can take that person to court. |
| 20:28.08 | Hhhhh | mheath, and rightly so |
| 20:28.22 | sjansen | A company should have the right to keeps it's source code closed. A government should not have the write to used closded source for anything other than national security, and only then with checks and balances. |
| 20:28.25 | Hhhhh | nobody should be forced to release source code |
| 20:28.30 | mheath | Hhhhh: Its not going to be leaked and replicated simply because its talked about in court! |
| 20:28.33 | Hhhhh | that's the RTS legacy for you |
| 20:28.38 | Hhhhh | RMS* |
| 20:28.49 | levi | Exposing code to the courtroom is likely to be pretty useless. What's the likelyhood that anyone in the jury will have any idea what it means? |
| 20:28.58 | Hhhhh | thanks levi |
| 20:29.07 | mheath | Hhhhh: RMS was talking about choices, not information requested to potentially prevent sending a free man to prison! |
| 20:29.08 | sjansen | levi: expert witnesses |
| 20:29.13 | findlay | levi: the court will have an expert witness |
| 20:29.17 | levi | Er, likelihood |
| 20:29.42 | mheath | levi: It gives the defense a chance to analyze it |
| 20:29.49 | mheath | Its evidence. They can higher someone to audit the code. |
| 20:29.59 | findlay | how is source code protected in the Bill of Rights or elsewhere? |
| 20:30.13 | Hhhhh | findlay, it's in the right of privacy |
| 20:30.14 | sjansen | As far as I'm concerned, being convicted by a closed machine is the same thing as being convicted by a secret law. It's un-American. |
| 20:30.17 | levi | Well, can one not subpoena the source code already? |
| 20:30.28 | mheath | levi: thats what this is about |
| 20:30.32 | mheath | They're trying to do that |
| 20:30.44 | mheath | Hhhhh argues that it shouldn't be possible |
| 20:31.18 | findlay | Hhhhh: I think the point is once the machine is used to enforce the law, it becomes part of government, and as such becomes subject to scrutiny by citizenship |
| 20:31.20 | Hhhhh | mheath, no, I'm arguing that for something as irrelevant and obviously petty it shouldn't |
| 20:31.35 | levi | A subpoena for source code to be reviewed by an expert witness seems very reasonable to me. |
| 20:31.36 | Hhhhh | findlay, then the govn't should buy those machines |
| 20:31.45 | Hhhhh | findlay, they shoulod make their own |
| 20:31.54 | Hhhhh | findlay, which is again, extremely innefective |
| 20:32.09 | mheath | Hhhhh: Why? |
| 20:32.10 | Hhhhh | just to satisfy petty excuses to breaking the law |
| 20:32.12 | findlay | Hhhhh: how is contracting out to make them different from "making their own"? |
| 20:32.19 | mheath | Hhhhh: Whats the worse that could happen? |
| 20:32.28 | Hhhhh | is govn't efficient at producing things? no |
| 20:32.28 | findlay | the governmet contracts out to make lots of things |
| 20:32.30 | levi | The nature of selling things to the government requires some tradeoffs to the companies doing the selling. |
| 20:32.46 | findlay | yes, to levi do you listen |
| 20:32.48 | Hhhhh | findlay, and that is good. But the government has to respect licenses as well |
| 20:33.07 | *** join/#utah tene_ (n=tene@poipu/supporter/slacker/tene) |
| 20:33.15 | findlay | Hhhhh: but this is just academic. It's up to the court to decide all of this |
| 20:33.26 | levi | When the government puts out a bid for something, it can put whatever restrictions it wants on the bids. |
| 20:33.34 | Hhhhh | findlay, and I hope they dismiss that sillyness |
| 20:33.37 | levi | Within its legal limits, of course. |
| 20:33.49 | Hhhhh | a very lame excuse to reduce the sentence for DUI |
| 20:33.56 | Hhhhh | now DUI drivers ar victims!!!! |
| 20:33.56 | findlay | Hhhhh: I don't think it's silly and that's what disturbs me about your argument |
| 20:33.59 | Hhhhh | poor DUI drivers!!! |
| 20:35.02 | sjansen | Hhhhh: This is no different than protecting pornographers in the name of free speech. |
| 20:35.08 | Hhhhh | findlay, I don't think you could tell me with a straight face that the whole reason for this source code thingy is NOT to bring justice to the courtroom but some silly allegation to reduce the sentence of the DUI driver |
| 20:35.19 | Hhhhh | no, DUI is an offense |
| 20:35.28 | Hhhhh | pronography isn't a crime necessarily |
| 20:35.37 | Hhhhh | it's disgusting and pathetic, but not illegal |
| 20:35.45 | findlay | Hhhhh: again I can't make judgements on the particular case |
| 20:35.46 | Hhhhh | so apples and oranges |
| 20:35.56 | sjansen | Do I like pornography? No. Do I like DUI? No. Do I think that because something is morally reprehensible we should just short circuit law and order? NO! |
| 20:36.12 | Hhhhh | sjansen, good, I agree with you |
| 20:36.21 | Hhhhh | I'm glad we're understanding each other |
| 20:36.30 | sjansen | Hhhhh: You're assuming guilt. Since when did our legal system start assuming guilt until proven innocent? |
| 20:36.37 | levi | How would examining the source code get a reduction of sentence? |
| 20:36.42 | Hhhhh | the more reason to dismiss this source code sillyness and convict the offenders promptly |
| 20:37.07 | mheath | harleypig: how long did it take them to ship you off after you enlisted? (I'm going Infantry too, by the way) |
| 20:37.10 | Hhhhh | sjansen, assuming guilt? if the police officer pulled them over is because there was something in their driving that makes them suspects |
| 20:37.10 | sjansen | Right. Let's just skip that whole silly proof step. The govt. accused him, he must be guilty. |
| 20:37.12 | mheath | granted that was during peactime |
| 20:37.30 | Hhhhh | what silly proof? the machine has been shown to have a very good accuracy at measuring DUI |
| 20:37.45 | Hhhhh | can it fluke? absolutely |
| 20:37.51 | Hhhhh | so can anything else |
| 20:38.03 | Hhhhh | that doesn't make it not "beyond reasonable doubt" |
| 20:38.23 | Hhhhh | I believe using the machine as part of due process is very fair |
| 20:38.28 | findlay | Hhhhh: you can't say that. That is for the *court* to decide |
| 20:38.32 | levi | Well, it's not up to /you/ to decide that. Unless you're on the jury. |
| 20:38.42 | Hhhhh | well, you can't either then |
| 20:38.43 | sjansen | "beyond reasonable doubt" is a higher legal requirement than this case merits |
| 20:38.49 | Hhhhh | we have a draw!! |
| 20:38.51 | levi | Hhhhh: I'm not! |
| 20:38.51 | Hhhhh | a tie!! |
| 20:39.08 | Hhhhh | sjansen, it's not up for you to decide, unless you're the juror |
| 20:39.20 | Hhhhh | I'm just quoting levi and findlay here |
| 20:39.32 | sjansen | Hhhhh: You're ignoring the fact that this case is a perfect opportunity to demonstrate that govt. built on closed source is fundamentally flawed. |
| 20:39.33 | scott_ | x |
| 20:39.38 | findlay | Hhhhh: that's not what I'm arguinig |
| 20:39.59 | Hhhhh | sjansen, you might be right |
| 20:40.00 | sjansen | I don't care about whether the person was drunk or not. I care about the legal issues behind the case. |
| 20:40.11 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I don't disagree with that, I think the govn't should use Open Source stuff |
| 20:40.22 | Hhhhh | sjansen, and that would make it more transparent, and that's good |
| 20:40.28 | Hhhhh | sjansen, but this isn't the case |
| 20:40.36 | sjansen | Why not? |
| 20:40.42 | Hhhhh | sjansen, and the company has a right to not disclose the source code if they don't want to |
| 20:40.51 | Hhhhh | why not? the machine is closed source |
| 20:40.53 | Hhhhh | and that is ok |
| 20:40.55 | levi | Hhhhh: Are you not understanding the concept of subpoena? |
| 20:40.56 | findlay | Hhhhh: because they're above the law? |
| 20:40.58 | Hhhhh | maybe govn't should buy it anymore |
| 20:41.16 | sjansen | Who was the model that recently went to the supreme court? She was an obviously manipulative gold digger. Didn't matter, behind the case was an issue worthy of consideration by the supreme court. |
| 20:41.18 | Hhhhh | levi, I understand it, and I hope they don't apply it here since it will not help _a bit_ |
| 20:41.19 | levi | The whole point is to compel people to do something they wouldn't otherwise want to do. |
| 20:41.24 | Hhhhh | levi, agreed |
| 20:41.38 | levi | And it's an established part of our legal system. |
| 20:41.45 | sjansen | It is not okay that the machine is closed source. It is why this case matters. It is why this is more than some slob trying to dodge a ticket. |
| 20:41.47 | levi | I don't know why you're arguing that it shouldn't apply here. |
| 20:41.54 | Hhhhh | levi, I don't know who you're arguing with |
| 20:42.08 | Hhhhh | levi, because seeing the source code won't help |
| 20:42.09 | levi | Hhhhh: Who says I'm arguing with someone? I'm just conversing. |
| 20:42.12 | harleypig | mheath: a few months |
| 20:42.36 | levi | Hhhhh: Why are you trying to set up an adversarial relationship? |
| 20:42.46 | findlay | Hhhhh: I don't think you can say that seeing the source code won't help with a straight face |
| 20:42.55 | Hhhhh | levi, I'm not, but I don't understand why you treat me like if I didn't know what a subpoena is |
| 20:43.09 | Hhhhh | levi, can't help but to feel alienated when you argue against something I'm not arguing |
| 20:43.14 | Hhhhh | while you address me |
| 20:43.25 | Hhhhh | findlay, I can and I am |
| 20:43.29 | scott_ | alright, I accidently copied a file (using pscp) to ~ in my home directory. how do I get rid of it without deleting my home directory? |
| 20:43.30 | levi | Hhhhh: Well, I'm trying to make sense of what you're arguing. I'm sorry if I offended you. |
| 20:43.41 | findlay | Hhhhh: I think you argument is potentially fallacious |
| 20:43.47 | Hhhhh | findlay, the source code thing is just an obstacle to make the prosecution clumsy, and it is extremely irrelevant |
| 20:43.58 | Hhhhh | findlay, good, I think l;ikewise of yours |
| 20:44.06 | sjansen | Here's the way I think it should go: Company refuses to provide code. This is it's right. DUI defendents are found not guilty for lack of proof. Govt. is forced by buy new machines from a company that will disclose code. |
| 20:44.13 | goozbach | scott_: rm -- ~ |
| 20:44.22 | levi | Hhhhh: Are you saying that the judge ought not to allow the subpoena, or that the judge should not be allowed to allow the subpoena? |
| 20:44.35 | Hhhhh | levi Hhhhh: Are you not understanding the concept of subpoena? <= I find that pretty condescending and irrespectful |
| 20:44.42 | Hhhhh | but whatever |
| 20:44.56 | scott_ | goozbach: that gives me rm: cannot remove `/home/scott': Permission denied |
| 20:44.57 | levi | Hhhhh: Yes, and I apologized for it. |
| 20:45.00 | Hhhhh | levi, I think the jusge ought not to |
| 20:45.09 | Hhhhh | levi, no problem then, sorry |
| 20:45.34 | sjansen | Why not? If you'll just say "we should take it as an article of faith that the govt. is never wrong" I'll disagree with you, but I'll understand what you're saying. |
| 20:45.46 | Hhhhh | levi, I'm, not against subpoenas, but I think they should not be used to satifsy petty demands but ratehr important thing. A bunch of lwyers looking at the source code won't help a bit |
| 20:45.52 | levi | I thought you were arguing that the judge should not be able to allow a subpoena for the source code. |
| 20:45.52 | findlay | Hhhhh: what law prevents the judge from issuing such a subpoena? |
| 20:45.55 | Hhhhh | I can't type today |
| 20:45.58 | Hhhhh | findlay, none |
| 20:46.00 | *** part/#utah Kuyaedz (n=Kuyaedz@65.106.115.194.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 20:46.04 | Hhhhh | findlay, as far as I know |
| 20:46.07 | sjansen | What I'm hearing is. "The person was obviously guilty. We don't need source code to prove that. The fact that they were accused is proof enough." |
| 20:46.11 | Hhhhh | findlay, I'm not against subpoenas |
| 20:46.22 | Hhhhh | sjansen, then you need to wash your ears |
| 20:46.33 | Hhhhh | sjansen, since I didn't say that |
| 20:46.37 | sjansen | Okay, so state it in a more clear manner. |
| 20:46.45 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I did, several time. Just scroll back |
| 20:46.49 | goozbach | scott_: ok like this rm -- /home/scott/~ |
| 20:46.50 | findlay | Hhhhh: what does a "bunch of lawyers" have to do with it? It sounds like you're manufacturing an argument to protect your poersonal opinion |
| 20:46.58 | levi | sjansen: What I'm hearing (now) is "There was already enough evidence to convict, and examining the source code would be a waste of the court's time and resources." |
| 20:47.01 | goozbach | you may have to excape the ~ |
| 20:47.06 | Hhhhh | findlay, it may sound like it, yea |
| 20:47.15 | goozbach | like this rm -- /home/scott/\~ |
| 20:47.17 | sjansen | Here's some variation's I'm hearing: "Providing the source isn't worth the hassle. It's only a small fine. If it were a big fine, maybe I'd care." |
| 20:47.24 | scott_ | goozbach: the seocnd one worked, thanks |
| 20:47.26 | Hhhhh | levi is correct, that is what I meant |
| 20:48.55 | levi | On the other hand, if no one ever challenges the devices, then it may be the case that something fishy is going on with them. I don't think it would be a waste, from a legal point of view, to get some case law established regarding law enforcement devices, if there isn't already precedent. |
| 20:49.09 | Hhhhh | sjansen, it seems to me that you are willfully trying to misrepresent what I'm saying |
| 20:49.36 | sjansen | I don't see where the article states that there was enough evidence without the test. |
| 20:49.50 | Hhhhh | levi, that is ok, but I don't think the company who made the thingies should have to be involved beyond what the contract with the govn't already says. |
| 20:49.53 | tensai | scott_: the other choice would be rm '~'. single quotes prevents interpolation. |
| 20:50.22 | sjansen | Hhhhh: I never said they should. This case is between the govt. and the accussed, not the company. |
| 20:50.27 | findlay | Hhhhh: that's an interesting point |
| 20:50.31 | levi | Hhhhh: Well, I think they should be as required to submit to subpoena as anyone else. I don't share your concerns about trade secrets in this case. |
| 20:50.46 | Hhhhh | sjansen, then how can you demand the source code? That is not something the govn't has access to |
| 20:50.48 | sjansen | (Although if a supeona is granted, the company would have to provide the code.) |
| 20:50.50 | findlay | Hhhhh: that I happen to disagree with (: |
| 20:51.00 | Hhhhh | levi, why? why is a subpoena necessary? |
| 20:51.08 | sjansen | The _government_ should be required to provide the code. |
| 20:51.24 | levi | Hhhhh: That's up to the judge to decide, and that's why we make people judges. |
| 20:51.24 | sjansen | If the _government_ can't provide the code, it should lose the case. |
| 20:51.43 | Hhhhh | findlay, disagree as in "the govn't should only buy products that are open source" or "FUD!!! screw the company's license, let's dig the code!!!" |
| 20:51.43 | sjansen | The _government_ has two options when it comes to providing the code: |
| 20:51.57 | sjansen | 1) Buy a machine from a company that's willing to provide. |
| 20:52.00 | Hhhhh | findlay, if it is the first one, I agree with you |
| 20:52.12 | sjansen | 2) Get a judge to grant a subpeona, forcing the compay to provide the code. |
| 20:52.21 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I have absolutely no objections with the first one |
| 20:52.27 | findlay | Hhhhh: disagree as in if the court finds it necessary to divulge the source code for a law enforcement device, the court should be able to do that |
| 20:52.46 | Hhhhh | the second one is simply submitting to petty claims that have no purpose to make DUI trials slower |
| 20:52.51 | sjansen | If the judge doesn't think the company should have to provide code, and I don't see why it should have to in this case, then the government loses. |
| 20:53.03 | levi | Hhhhh: Not all such claims might be petty, though. |
| 20:53.05 | Hhhhh | findlay, ok, so you meant the second (provided that wording may differ) |
| 20:53.07 | findlay | sjansen: are you arguing the "_government_" as in the government as a whole or just for law enforcement? |
| 20:53.40 | findlay | because I bet there are hundreds of thousands of government MS desktops out there |
| 20:54.25 | findlay | Hhhhh: not quite. A weaker form. Only if the court finds it necessary to divulge the code |
| 20:54.29 | levi | Hhhhh: What if you were tired one night and got pulled over for driving erratically and you hit a corner case in the breathalyzer source code? I think you would want that avenue of defense to be open, because obviously the device had malfunctioned. |
| 20:54.44 | Hhhhh | levi, not all. I'm not against subpoenas (I agree with the one with google's records) |
| 20:54.59 | Hhhhh | levi, it's THIS case that I think it's silly |
| 20:55.07 | sjansen | Why? |
| 20:55.19 | Hhhhh | levi, not that the govn't having to use Open Source is silly, but the demands of the DUI defendants |
| 20:55.29 | sjansen | Where's the difference? |
| 20:55.35 | levi | Hhhhh: Well, apparently the judge disagrees with you, and it's his call. |
| 20:55.41 | Hhhhh | they're just using small technicalities to get off the DUI |
| 20:55.48 | Hhhhh | levi, I'm not denying that |
| 20:55.53 | sjansen | Of course. That doesn't change the underlying issue. |
| 20:55.54 | mheath | Wow. Recruiters will do anything. |
| 20:55.58 | findlay | Hhhhh: it's not that they're DUI defendants that's importatnt. It's that they are *citizens* |
| 20:55.59 | Hhhhh | sjansen, it doesn't |
| 20:56.07 | mheath | Just had one offer to do something I know they're not supposed to do |
| 20:56.23 | sjansen | How about this one: miranda. |
| 20:56.25 | mheath | (Meet with me before I'm 17) |
| 20:56.33 | mheath | I was a moron |
| 20:56.39 | mheath | I gave them tons of information |
| 20:56.49 | Hhhhh | findlay, I think the key is there. So we can drive DUI now because if we are tried, we simply bring up the source code thingy and now we're not "DUI defendants", we're "citizens"? |
| 20:57.08 | sjansen | Obviously guilty people regularily get off scott free because the govt. messed up. It's a punishment to make sure the govt. doesn't things right. |
| 20:57.09 | findlay | Hhhhh: that's not what I said |
| 20:57.11 | mheath | Contact information, address, basic medical information, criminal and drug use information (none, if you had to ask) |
| 20:57.20 | mheath | And he wants to meet with me on Monday |
| 20:57.27 | Hhhhh | I think the source code issue has NOTHING to do AT ALL with the validity of the evidence presented against them |
| 20:57.28 | levi | Hhhhh: Those two groups are not mutually exclusive. |
| 20:57.28 | sjansen | Obviously guilty people regularily get off scott free because the govt. messed up. It's a punishment to make sure the govt. does things right. |
| 20:57.33 | mheath | Wow |
| 20:57.37 | mheath | This discussion is still going on. |
| 20:57.44 | findlay | Hhhhh: it's better to let 10 guilty men go free than to jail 1 innocent man |
| 20:57.57 | Hhhhh | sjansen, that last argument is terrible |
| 20:57.57 | mheath | Amazing, considering how it will influence nothing and its just a bunch of Linux users arguing over judicial politics. |
| 20:58.12 | Hhhhh | sjansen, sorry, I oppose criminals getting off because of holes in law |
| 20:58.26 | Hhhhh | sjansen, that is 100x more important than "punishing the govn't" |
| 20:58.38 | sjansen | No, it's not. It's one of the fundamental principles that keeps this nation from falling into tyranny. |
| 20:58.38 | Hhhhh | that's not silly, that's plainly Disney |
| 20:58.47 | Hhhhh | tyranny, bleh |
| 20:58.51 | levi | Heh. |
| 20:59.02 | Hhhhh | Americans have absolutely NO idea of what they talk about when they rbing up tyranny |
| 20:59.03 | Hhhhh | sorry |
| 20:59.26 | Hhhhh | tyranny in America, that's not laughable but offensive |
| 20:59.30 | tene | no idea or an incorrect idea? |
| 20:59.41 | sjansen | It's the difference between "innocent until proven guilty" and "guilty until proven innocent". |
| 20:59.47 | tene | ... yeah, that didn't mean anything. ignore me. |
| 20:59.52 | Hhhhh | try growing up in a country when tyranny means a little more than not having access to the source code of the DUI machine |
| 20:59.53 | Hhhhh | pleeeze |
| 21:00.05 | Hhhhh | sjansen, again, Americans have no experience about that |
| 21:00.16 | sjansen | If you let the govt. cut corners because "the person was obviously guilty" you're inverting one of the basic assumptions the system is based on. |
| 21:00.32 | obfuscated | alright - quick (or kwik) perl question |
| 21:00.37 | findlay | Hhhhh: whatever level of freedom we may have in the US we as responsible citizens try to keep |
| 21:00.38 | tene | We have no idea about it and we intend to keep it that way? |
| 21:00.42 | Hhhhh | so we need to pay heed to every silly petty demand to "prevent govn't from falling into tyranny" |
| 21:00.44 | levi | Americans have such a poor grasp of tyranny /because/ of the system. |
| 21:00.47 | Hhhhh | at the cost of letting criminals go |
| 21:00.52 | sjansen | Hhhhh: It should be obvious that demanding access to source code is holding the line against the decent into tyranny. |
| 21:00.55 | Hhhhh | levi, they have no grasp. Period. |
| 21:01.00 | levi | Hhhhh: So? |
| 21:01.06 | levi | Hhhhh: Is that a bad thing? |
| 21:01.09 | findlay | Hhhhh: yes. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance |
| 21:01.11 | Hhhhh | sjansen, not having access to the source code won't trun you into an Ethiopian |
| 21:01.20 | obfuscated | I want to be able to insert portions of a wiki into my website, so users can only freely edit parts of it. Is kwiki a good tool for this, or is there another module that might be better for the job? |
| 21:01.25 | sjansen | The moment you start making exceptions, you're starting down a slippery slope. |
| 21:01.32 | Hhhhh | ok, this is one of the moments where I have to reconsider the idea of becoming an American |
| 21:01.41 | Hhhhh | when I hear people from the keyboards saying stuff like that |
| 21:01.42 | sjansen | Hhhhh: Perhaps you should. |
| 21:02.20 | levi | Hhhhh: I don't understand why you're so worked up over this. |
| 21:02.24 | tene | "Don't complain about me stealing your wallet. There are people in africa with no wallet at all!" |
| 21:02.36 | Hhhhh | levi, because sjansen is bringing up a lot of stuff he has no idea about |
| 21:02.53 | Hhhhh | levi, and treating things that are way above his head as valid as real suffering from tyranny |
| 21:03.02 | findlay | obfuscated: doubtful, (: |
| 21:03.10 | sjansen | Hhhhh: Why are you being insulting? |
| 21:03.19 | Hhhhh | some strupid silly source code thing won't bring you into tyranny, and no, not even letting 100 more similar thing go |
| 21:03.30 | mheath | obfuscated: Ah, the joys of a judiciary politics discussion that can have no effect on anything in the real world! |
| 21:03.31 | Hhhhh | because you have no idea what tyranny is |
| 21:03.52 | mheath | obfuscated: If you wanted to argue the politics of kwiki being open source or not, though, you've come to the right place =P |
| 21:03.52 | obfuscated | maybe if I repost it over and over people will stop talking politics |
| 21:03.57 | levi | Hhhhh: So you're offended by the suggestion that the American legal system prevents tyranny because the suggestor hasn't experienced tyranny? |
| 21:04.01 | obfuscated | and hate me instead |
| 21:04.01 | sjansen | Hhhhh: Glad to hear you're so obviously more experienced and knowledgeable. |
| 21:04.03 | tene | mheath: so everything you do has an effect on the real world? |
| 21:04.06 | findlay | Hhhhh: do you think PATRIOT is tyrannical? |
| 21:04.19 | sjansen | Glad to hear you have so much faith in govt. that you think little things shouldn't matter. |
| 21:04.27 | mheath | tene: I don't spend *looks at watch* hours discussing things that don't. |
| 21:04.36 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I may not be, although I was bornj and raised in a country in a military dictatorship and had uncles who were persecuted by the govn't |
| 21:04.51 | findlay | if anything is tyrannical look at nationalism of the US praded about abroad on the brows of poor countries |
| 21:04.59 | Hhhhh | sjansen, obviously the distrust of govn't in fashion lately is just as insuightful as that |
| 21:05.07 | tene | mheath: ever watch TV? watch a movie? |
| 21:05.23 | sjansen | A significant reason the US has never been controlled by a military dictatorship is that the citizens don't roll over, they don't trust the govt. |
| 21:05.26 | tene | read a novel? |
| 21:05.39 | levi | Hhhhh: The whole foundation of the constitution is based upon distrust of government. |
| 21:05.41 | Hhhhh | and yes, I prefer an oppresibe govn't (which America isn't) over letting criminals go because of "tehcnicalities" |
| 21:05.47 | Hhhhh | levi, I know that |
| 21:05.53 | sjansen | We've had dark periods, like McCarthyism (and some would argue Bushism), but there were people holding the govt. to a high standard. |
| 21:05.55 | Hhhhh | levi, but letting criminals go is worse |
| 21:06.02 | levi | Hhhhh: I disagree. |
| 21:06.05 | Hhhhh | levi, that is the best sign of an overly lenient system |
| 21:06.19 | Hhhhh | where a rapist can do as he pleases but because of some technicality he gets away |
| 21:06.29 | Bradipo | sjansen: McCarthy was a ``dark period?'' |
| 21:06.35 | Hhhhh | now tell me that is "a better and more open society" |
| 21:06.36 | mheath | tene: Enjoying entertaining things is not the same as spending hours discussing a court case that you have no influence in, and, when it comes down to it, you don't have enough motivation to make yourself have an influence in it. |
| 21:06.52 | sjansen | Bradipo: most recent example I could think of. |
| 21:06.59 | tene | Hhhhh: what about letting the government do as it pleases? |
| 21:07.00 | levi | mheath: Quit putting yourself on a high horse. You waste just as much time on irc as anyone else. |
| 21:07.09 | Hhhhh | tene, extremes are bad |
| 21:07.15 | Hhhhh | tene, paranoia isn't bad |
| 21:07.17 | tene | mheath: this is an entertaining thing for the participants. |
| 21:07.21 | sjansen | Bad govt is more dangerous than bad guys. |
| 21:07.31 | mheath | levi: Not really. |
| 21:07.34 | Hhhhh | tene, paranoia + letting criminals go because of holes in the law = overly lenient, = can't protect rights |
| 21:07.34 | sjansen | Bad guys can kill a family, bad govt. can kill a race. |
| 21:08.06 | Hhhhh | sjansen given how often those things happen, I prefer a bad govn't |
| 21:08.16 | Hhhhh | unless you've never lived outside of Utah, of course |
| 21:08.27 | sjansen | A basic assumption of the American system of govt. is that stricter limits should be placed on the govt. than on the citizens. |
| 21:08.32 | Hhhhh | since there is such low crime in Utah, it's easy to overlook that |
| 21:08.41 | findlay | Hhhhh: do you then not give the devil the benefit of law? |
| 21:08.42 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: I would have to disagree on this point. Bad government is always worse than a bad person. |
| 21:08.45 | sjansen | It may not be right, but it's the way things are done around here, and it's worked pretty well for us so far. |
| 21:09.24 | Bradipo | You can handle a ``bad'' person much easier than you can a ``bad'' government. Once a government becomes corrupt it is much more difficult to change for the better. |
| 21:09.43 | sjansen | Things have generally been much rougher in countries where govt. was allowed to cut corners. |
| 21:09.54 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, that was an overgeneralization of my part. By "bad" govn't I mean it the way it is now. America is one of the freest countries in the world |
| 21:10.01 | Bradipo | Well, rougher in countries where the people let the government get out of hand. |
| 21:10.16 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: One of the freest, but it isn't the most free. |
| 21:10.23 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, making it "freer" at the cost of forfeiting the responsibility of protecting the citizenry is an extreme |
| 21:10.35 | Hhhhh | I don't want it freer |
| 21:10.37 | findlay | Hhhhh: yes, and why do you think it's silly for us to want to keep it free? |
| 21:10.41 | Hhhhh | freer = not protecting |
| 21:10.42 | sjansen | I do. |
| 21:10.46 | sjansen | Yup. |
| 21:11.19 | levi | I would like law enforcement and the legal system to work better, but I don't think this one isolated DUI case is a sign of things one way or another. |
| 21:11.28 | sjansen | You have to find a balance, but at a certain point that balance has to include empowering citizens to protect themselves. |
| 21:11.29 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: I disagree. |
| 21:11.34 | tene | It's a lot easier for an individual to protect themselves from a bad individual than from a bad government. |
| 21:11.35 | Bradipo | freer != not protecting. |
| 21:11.46 | Bradipo | tene: All it takes is a sidearm. :-) |
| 21:11.53 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, would you prefer criminals free as well to commit more crimes? |
| 21:12.16 | Bradipo | No, but did I say anything about letting criminals walk freely? |
| 21:12.22 | sjansen | I would prefer to be freer to shoot a criminal that was threatening me. |
| 21:12.25 | tene | Hhhhh: under a bad government you have just as many criminals, but you can't protect yourself from them. |
| 21:12.55 | tene | Is the belief supporting these assertations. |
| 21:13.04 | levi | Hhhhh: Perhaps you could apply for citizenship in Singapore. I hear they're pretty strict with criminals. |
| 21:13.10 | Hhhhh | levi, lol |
| 21:13.17 | sjansen | If I did, I'd go to court, I'd have to prove I did it for a legitimate reason, but I'd not be totally dependent on the good will of people who are ultimately there to serve me, not tell me what to do. |
| 21:13.20 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: It is also entirely possible that we are arguing different types of criminals... |
| 21:13.24 | Hhhhh | tene, we aren't under a "bad" government |
| 21:13.32 | tene | Hhhhh: no, we aren't. |
| 21:13.37 | Hhhhh | tene, and still criminals get away with a lot of stuff |
| 21:13.38 | tene | And we intend to keep it that way. |
| 21:13.50 | Bradipo | I consider someone that harms either a person's life, takes aways a person's right, or damages a person's property to be a criminal. |
| 21:14.06 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: What definition of criminal are you working under? |
| 21:14.07 | Hhhhh | and if to make society "free" it means to let more criminals get away with crimes, then I'm for leaving it as it is |
| 21:14.43 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, someone who breaks the law to the degree of a crime |
| 21:14.54 | Hhhhh | I'm not going to start typical FreeNode definition arguments btw |
| 21:14.55 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: Depends on what you mean by ``bad''. |
| 21:15.10 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, refer to my last comment |
| 21:15.18 | tene | Hhhhh: so if we abolished laws, there would be no crime? |
| 21:15.19 | levi | findlay: I don't think that applies. If there is no choice, there is no crime, and thus no enforcement. |
| 21:15.21 | Hhhhh | findlay, good luck |
| 21:15.26 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: To some, any government is ``bad'' government. Even Jefferson leaned towards that way of thinking. ``That government governs best which governs least.'' |
| 21:15.56 | findlay | levi: exactly my point |
| 21:16.08 | findlay | no freedom |
| 21:16.15 | Hhhhh | what I mean is this: it seems that we have a trade off between justice and freedom. I won't sacrifice justice for petty freedoms |
| 21:16.36 | Hhhhh | Utahns may do so, but people living in the suburbs of Atlanta would get screwed |
| 21:16.50 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: I'm not sure what you mean by that... |
| 21:16.53 | findlay | neither will most rational people. I think we are at a disagreement on what we see as petty here |
| 21:16.54 | tene | What was the quote... ``He who is willing to sacrifice freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both.''? |
| 21:16.58 | levi | findlay: Except how do you expect to actually take away someone's ability to choose? All you can do is enforce extremely dire consequences to certain choices. The ability to make those choices is still there. |
| 21:17.09 | Bradipo | tene: Franklin? |
| 21:17.13 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, I mean that in Utah a "horrible crime" is getting the backpack stolen from the Lee library |
| 21:17.21 | maquis | Hhhhh: you can't have justice without freedom |
| 21:17.22 | Bradipo | tene: Was that a Ben Franklin quote? |
| 21:17.25 | tene | I know it's Franklin, but I'm not sure about the wording. |
| 21:17.27 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, in Atlanta a horrible crime is getting raped by a gang and then killed |
| 21:17.29 | Bradipo | Oh. |
| 21:17.46 | sjansen | Hhhhh: A horrible crime in Utah is murder. |
| 21:17.52 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: And what is the point. That would be a crime here too. |
| 21:18.13 | sjansen | Hhhhh: You must be living down in the Provo reality distortion field. |
| 21:18.14 | maquis | Hhhhh: you're forgetting that there are crimes here just like everywhere else |
| 21:18.18 | maquis | everyone forgets that |
| 21:18.20 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: Well, each state is sovereign. |
| 21:18.33 | maquis | even in provo, there are rapes and things like that |
| 21:18.34 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: Its entirely possible that some states have different levels of crimes. |
| 21:18.42 | tene | Maybe he thinks that a rapist could get off if the police wouldn't release the source code for the rape detector. |
| 21:18.49 | Hhhhh | tene, rofl |
| 21:18.52 | tene | ;) |
| 21:18.57 | Hhhhh | hhaha |
| 21:18.59 | findlay | Bradipo: sate soverignity has lessened over the centuries |
| 21:19.12 | maquis | that doesn't mean that we should take away all of everyone's freedoms |
| 21:19.12 | Hhhhh | tene, that kindof proves my point |
| 21:19.19 | Hhhhh | maquis, I'm not for that |
| 21:19.21 | Bradipo | findlay: It has, indeed. |
| 21:19.22 | maquis | sure, you sacrifice some freedoms to live in a society... |
| 21:19.35 | Bradipo | maquis: You shouldn't have to sacrifice freedoms to live in society. |
| 21:19.44 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, that is wrong |
| 21:19.46 | Bradipo | Society should defend freedoms, regardless of what they are. |
| 21:19.49 | maquis | Bradipo: locke -- social contract |
| 21:19.56 | graphyx | I think the quote goes, "Those who sacrafice freedom for security deserve neither. |
| 21:20.06 | maquis | you choose to give up some freedom to create laws that define a society |
| 21:20.07 | Hhhhh | Bradipo, your freedom of driving a monster truck over the traffic in I-15 is something you have to give up |
| 21:20.20 | goozbach | we need a Locke and Demostheses in here |
| 21:20.27 | Bradipo | maquis: If anything, I contract with others to protect my freedoms. |
| 21:20.27 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 21:20.29 | Hhhhh | hahaha |
| 21:20.33 | maquis | but beyond those few freedoms that are necessary for the creation of a society, you retain the rest of them |
| 21:20.33 | findlay | Hhhhh: consider reading _Common_Sense_ by Thomas Paine and _The_Second_Treatise_of_Civil_Government_ by John Locke to see where the ideas of freedom that the US espouses comes from |
| 21:20.34 | Hhhhh | I'm Ender |
| 21:20.44 | maquis | Bradipo: yes... but you have to give up some freedoms to protect the others |
| 21:20.50 | maquis | it's a choice to give up those freedoms, though |
| 21:21.04 | Bradipo | Right, but how many people have conciously made that choice? |
| 21:21.17 | sjansen | Bradipo: It's a given that you have to sacrafice some freedoms to live in society. "Your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose." |
| 21:21.20 | maquis | you agree to a restriction against murder in order to have the freedom of knowing you aren't likely to be murdered |
| 21:21.38 | maquis | Bradipo: i'll admit that many people do not recognize the choice... but it does exist |
| 21:21.51 | maquis | i had never thought about it until i got into political philosophy |
| 21:21.56 | Bradipo | maquis: Knowing that there is a law against murder doesn't make me feel any safer. |
| 21:22.06 | Bradipo | maquis: knowing that I can carry a gun to defend my rights does. |
| 21:22.33 | Bradipo | sjansen: And yes, my freedoms stop at the point that they infringe upon yours. |
| 21:22.50 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 21:22.52 | Bradipo | But then, how is it possible that my freedoms could ever infringe upon yours unless I am making agressions against you? |
| 21:22.53 | maquis | Bradipo: if anyone could kill anyone else without any repercussions, society would not work |
| 21:23.04 | findlay | Bradipo: good question |
| 21:23.28 | Hhhhh | bad question |
| 21:23.51 | maquis | Bradipo: the only reason that your freedoms stop where they infring on someone else's is because you agreed to give up your freedom to move your fist wherever you want, in order to become a part of this society |
| 21:23.53 | Hhhhh | you give up a piece of your freedom to own things because of taxes |
| 21:24.05 | tene | So then as long as you don't drink and drive, you won't have to worry about breathalyzer code. |
| 21:24.10 | sjansen | Bradipo: Depends on whether you consider management of limited resources aggression. |
| 21:24.13 | Bradipo | maquis: And clearly killing someone else is wrong, immoral and against the law because you have taken away life, liberty and property from that person. |
| 21:24.15 | Hhhhh | tene, you da man :) |
| 21:24.29 | Bradipo | sjansen: If I own those resources, I can manage them how I please. |
| 21:24.36 | sjansen | I don't generally consider irrigation a form of aggretion, but I suppose it could be defined that way. |
| 21:24.42 | maquis | tene: assuming the breathalyzer is correct... if it's wrong, you could still need to worry about it if the breathalyzer malfuctions and gives a false-positive |
| 21:24.44 | Bradipo | That includes withholding them from someone who might want them. |
| 21:24.58 | tene | maquis: I was being sarcastic. I forgot my smilie. |
| 21:25.18 | maquis | Bradipo: exactly... but your obeying that law and respecting other people's life, liberty and property is hwat you gave in order to join the society |
| 21:25.21 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: If you have to pay taxes on something do you really own it? |
| 21:25.30 | Bradipo | Hhhhh: Kings owned things, they didn't pay taxes on them. |
| 21:25.52 | Bradipo | maquis: But I am not giving up freedoms for that. |
| 21:26.03 | Bradipo | maquis: God given rights does not include the right to murder. |
| 21:26.08 | findlay | ~lart please be that one lart |
| 21:26.11 | tene | ~lart findlay |
| 21:26.23 | sjansen | Bradipo: Few people have the resources to purchase an entire water sytem (in the geological sense). |
| 21:26.33 | maquis | just as we pay taxes in order to have roads... most people will agree taht in the choice between a system where everyone builds their own roads, or a system where a government is created that handles the road systems, they would choose to pay some taxes to have working roads |
| 21:26.49 | maquis | Bradipo: that's just one of the examples that Locke gave... |
| 21:27.06 | Bradipo | maquis: Just because roads are funded by taxes now does not mean that that is the only way roads can be made. |
| 21:27.11 | maquis | in essence, without everybody giving up certain things, you can't have a functioning society |
| 21:27.27 | findlay | this conversation is starting to get boring |
| 21:27.28 | maquis | Bradipo: still, in order to have roads, everyone would have to, in some way, pitch in to get the roads |
| 21:27.35 | Bradipo | maquis: This is true, and voluntary exchange is what good societies are made of. |
| 21:27.40 | maquis | Bradipo: yes... |
| 21:27.43 | tene | so, findlay, how do you feel about nazis? |
| 21:27.46 | findlay | I believe in the right to SING KAREOKE LOUD AT NIGHT WHEREVER I WANT |
| 21:27.46 | maquis | but there's still some give and take |
| 21:27.47 | levi | findlay: It was boring a long time ago; unfortunately, I'm a sucker. |
| 21:27.53 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 21:27.55 | Bradipo | maquis: Not necessarily, businesses that want to attract more customers would certainly make better roads to their businesses. |
| 21:28.02 | findlay | and I believe in the right to KILL KITTENS!!@! |
| 21:28.11 | elg | ~kitten findlay |
| 21:28.15 | Bradipo | findlay: Better watch out... |
| 21:28.18 | maquis | Bradipo: that's still a give and take |
| 21:28.33 | Bradipo | findlay: Here in Utah they are airing ads that make the public turn in neighbors for abusing animals. |
| 21:28.54 | elg | really? wow. mind control ads |
| 21:28.56 | Bradipo | maquis: Its mutual benefit. |
| 21:29.06 | maquis | Bradipo: do you want a different road going from your house to every company that you need to go to? |
| 21:29.19 | elg | findlay: don't worry, we aren't your neighbors in real life |
| 21:29.21 | findlay | Bradipo: reminds me of Fareheight 454 |
| 21:29.25 | Bradipo | maquis: So I guess you could argue that when I trade something with you, I expect to get more enjoyment of what you have than what I am giving you. |
| 21:29.33 | Bradipo | elg: Seriously. |
| 21:29.52 | maquis | if the roads are going to be shared by multiple companies, who's going to maintain the roads |
| 21:29.52 | tene | ~kitten |
| 21:29.54 | ibot | rumour has it, kitten is one hawt linux babe, or ! |
| 21:29.54 | Bradipo | They are stating that those who abuse their animals are more likely to be child abusers. |
| 21:30.04 | findlay | Bradipo: that's the kind of stuff I'm worried about |
| 21:30.11 | Bradipo | Which may be true, but what my neighbor does with his animals is his business. |
| 21:30.18 | Bradipo | If I see him beating a kid, that's a different story. |
| 21:30.26 | tene | and the animals' business. |
| 21:30.29 | tene | of course |
| 21:30.32 | findlay | yes |
| 21:30.46 | findlay | 7/11? |
| 21:30.47 | Bradipo | maquis: Insurance companies, I don't know... |
| 21:30.53 | findlay | somebody burned down a 7/11? |
| 21:31.00 | Hhhhh | well, I'm glad to have started an argument |
| 21:31.01 | Bradipo | maquis: I'm sure there would be a business for it. |
| 21:31.02 | maquis | anyway, for the most part, i agree with the idea that we need freedoms, and i think it's important to keep as many freedoms as we can, but i also see that there ae some which we have voluntarily given up in order for society to work smoothly |
| 21:31.13 | Hhhhh | now I'm gonna go play some Quake 4 <= closed source!!! |
| 21:31.14 | Hhhhh | ;) |
| 21:31.17 | Bradipo | maquis: Which ones must we voluntarily give up? |
| 21:31.21 | maquis | (and i think we may have some definitional issues here) |
| 21:31.28 | maquis | Bradipo: i already gave some examples |
| 21:31.38 | levi | maquis: I believe Bradipo will argue that taxation, for example, is compelled, not voluntary. |
| 21:31.42 | Bradipo | maquis: I must have missed them. |
| 21:31.42 | elg | you mean an hhhhargument |
| 21:31.43 | tene | but Hhhhh, what happens if there's a bug in the hit-detection algorithm and you don't get a kill that you should have? |
| 21:31.45 | findlay | Bradipo: read Second Treatise on Civil Government |
| 21:31.46 | maquis | levi: if you don't like it, move |
| 21:31.52 | Bradipo | levi: I would argue that taxation is clearly compelled. |
| 21:32.06 | maquis | i agree that to a degree it's become compelled |
| 21:32.07 | findlay | Bradipo: it takes a different premise than the "God given rights" |
| 21:32.12 | findlay | slightly |
| 21:32.18 | Bradipo | findlay: who wrote that? |
| 21:32.25 | findlay | Bradipo: John Locke |
| 21:32.26 | TheDiff | aren't you guys supposed to be working? |
| 21:32.27 | maquis | but i can also see that there are reasons why, in an ideal society, taxation would be for the public good |
| 21:32.34 | findlay | you can probably find it online somewhere |
| 21:32.40 | Bradipo | levi: I haven't read much of locke yet... |
| 21:32.41 | levi | TheDiff: Aren't you? |
| 21:32.46 | maquis | Bradipo: i second what findlay said... that's where i gained most of my beliefs on this issue |
| 21:32.50 | TheDiff | psh, no. I dont work |
| 21:32.55 | TheDiff | work is overrated |
| 21:33.00 | tene | ~fix TheDiff |
| 21:33.03 | ibot | ACTION takes TheDiff to the vet for a "special" visit. |
| 21:33.03 | Bradipo | Familiar with his doctrines and I certainly tend towards natural law. |
| 21:33.05 | TheDiff | haha |
| 21:33.25 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@38.119.178.10) |
| 21:33.26 | TheDiff | I still need to graduate before I can get a 'real' job |
| 21:33.35 | mheath | TheDiff: no, you don't. |
| 21:33.36 | maquis | Bradipo: you seem to be more rousseau-ian... i'm more locke-ian :) |
| 21:33.41 | mheath | That's a stupid excuse. |
| 21:33.53 | TheDiff | mheath: its a wonderful excuse. delay the inevitable |
| 21:33.54 | elg | mheath: no it's not |
| 21:34.03 | mheath | Delay, yes. Don't blame. |
| 21:34.11 | elg | well, it does depend on what you mean by "real" job |
| 21:34.15 | mheath | I go to school and hold a job quite easily |
| 21:34.24 | TheDiff | you are in highschool |
| 21:34.35 | elg | if you mean 9-5 drudgery, then I can give you more reasons not to get such a job while still in school than you can give me for |
| 21:34.56 | elg | if you mean on-the-side flexible consultantship... that's another story :) |
| 21:35.02 | tene | ~fix maquis' stat homework |
| 21:35.05 | ibot | ACTION takes maquis' stat homework to the vet for a "special" visit. |
| 21:35.21 | TheDiff | besides, I have a job anyways. but its fun so I dont consider it work |
| 21:35.28 | TheDiff | and I wouldnt consider it a "real" job |
| 21:35.31 | mheath | TheDiff: Yes. I go to school from 7:30 until 2:30. I spend every other moment of my day on three things: Work, Online classes I have to complete for graduation, and homework. |
| 21:35.40 | findlay | ooh, a new argument ... |
| 21:35.44 | tene | and IRC |
| 21:35.49 | TheDiff | mostly IRC |
| 21:35.52 | Bradipo | maquis: Ever read No Treason by Lysander Spooner? |
| 21:35.59 | tene | didn't you say something about leaving IRC for a month? |
| 21:36.09 | maquis | Bradipo: don't believe i have |
| 21:36.10 | tene | not that I'm telling you to leave, just curious |
| 21:36.12 | TheDiff | psh, unpossible. |
| 21:36.20 | levi | mheath: Except for the time you waste here telling us about your crappy job and your deliberations about what branch of the military you're going to join. |
| 21:36.23 | Bradipo | maquis: Good read when you get some time. |
| 21:36.25 | mheath | TheDiff: I spend very little time on IRC. I just multitask well. |
| 21:36.30 | findlay | let's try to get ibot's log up over a megabyte of gzipped text! |
| 21:36.31 | TheDiff | levi: haha |
| 21:36.41 | findlay | fillibuster, *fillibuster*!! |
| 21:36.46 | mheath | This last week, I complete about 20 assignments for my online class. All done when I was sitting in and IRC channel. |
| 21:36.50 | maquis | Bradipo: i'll stick that on my post-graduation reading list :) |
| 21:36.53 | Bradipo | maquis: http://www.lysanderspooner.org/notreason.htm |
| 21:36.56 | brac | [NoTreason] |
| 21:36.58 | TheDiff | must not be very hard assignments |
| 21:37.11 | Bradipo | Well, as long as you're going to bring up Locke and Rousseau, you might as well get the complete picture. |
| 21:37.21 | graphyx | mheath: Does that mean that you get all your homework done by people on irc? ;) |
| 21:37.23 | mheath | TheDiff: they varied to quick 30 minute things to 6 page essays. |
| 21:37.31 | TheDiff | okay. |
| 21:37.32 | maquis | Bradipo: the title is rather unfortunate when punctuation and capitalization is left out.... :) |
| 21:37.35 | mheath | s/to quick/from quick/g |
| 21:37.45 | TheDiff | i got it the first time, thanks. |
| 21:37.47 | goozbach | I've offered to help mheath with his IRC addiction |
| 21:37.56 | goozbach | even set up a ban once |
| 21:38.00 | TheDiff | yeah, its called parental guidance |
| 21:38.00 | Bradipo | maquis: Maybe that is why it is left out of textbooks... |
| 21:38.02 | mheath | goozbach: I'm OK. |
| 21:38.05 | mheath | I have motivation now, too |
| 21:38.06 | goozbach | I just didnt' have the heart to kick him |
| 21:38.08 | maquis | Bradipo: :) |
| 21:38.27 | mheath | My dad won't sign my enlistment contract when I turn 17 unless I work hard on these now and get them done soon. |
| 21:39.04 | findlay | maquis: you had a sign on your back that said "Kick me!" |
| 21:39.11 | mheath | maquis: because I'm stupidly using GAIM and rejoining is a pain in the but? |
| 21:39.28 | TheDiff | your dad is going to send you off to the military?? what did you do??? |
| 21:39.39 | TheDiff | your parents are stricter than I thought |
| 21:39.43 | mheath | TheDiff: ..... |
| 21:39.49 | mheath | ~lart TheDiff |
| 21:39.53 | TheDiff | haha |
| 21:39.55 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@c-24-2-85-20.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:39.56 | findlay | ~lart IRC |
| 21:39.58 | mheath | ~praise USMC |
| 21:40.01 | ibot | All hail USMC! |
| 21:40.07 | mheath | ibot: Semper Fi! |
| 21:40.21 | findlay | corsairs |
| 21:40.27 | TheDiff | mmmm nationalism |
| 21:40.30 | mheath | ibot: Semper Fi is Semper Fi! Oorah! |
| 21:40.32 | ibot | mheath: okay |
| 21:40.40 | mheath | ibot: Semper Fi |
| 21:40.42 | ibot | from memory, semper fi is Semper Fi! Oorah! |
| 21:40.50 | goozbach | maquis: it's cause your a gurl |
| 21:40.58 | mheath | How do I get it to just say something? |
| 21:41.02 | mheath | minus the "from memory" junk. |
| 21:41.16 | goozbach | <reply> |
| 21:41.17 | maquis | goozbach: and that makes me more easily kickable? |
| 21:41.25 | goozbach | no, but it was funny |
| 21:41.28 | goozbach | :) |
| 21:41.31 | mheath | ibot: Semper Fi is <reply>Semper Fi! Oorah! |
| 21:41.33 | ibot | ...but semper fi is already something else... |
| 21:41.33 | TheDiff | :) |
| 21:41.33 | TheDiff | i concur |
| 21:41.34 | maquis | ah |
| 21:41.36 | findlay | ~lart goozbach |
| 21:41.42 | maquis | -lart goozbach |
| 21:41.47 | mheath | ibot: no, Semper Fi is <reply>Semper Fi! Oorah! |
| 21:41.49 | ibot | okay, mheath |
| 21:41.54 | *** mode/#utah [+o maquis] by ChanServ |
| 21:41.57 | mheath | ibot: Semper Fi |
| 21:41.58 | ibot | Semper Fi! Oorah! |
| 21:41.59 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:42.04 | *** mode/#utah [-o maquis] by goozbach |
| 21:42.10 | maquis | hey! |
| 21:42.14 | findlay | lol |
| 21:42.18 | *** mode/#utah [+o maquis] by ChanServ |
| 21:42.20 | TheDiff | poor ibot. it's becoming a mouthpiece for the govt. :( |
| 21:42.24 | *** mode/#utah [-o goozbach] by maquis |
| 21:42.40 | *** join/#utah Kuyaedz (n=Kuyaedz@65.106.115.194.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:42.46 | findlay | ibot: your source code is subpoenad to be divulged in a court of law! |
| 21:42.53 | ibot | okay, findlay |
| 21:42.53 | mheath | ibot: no, Semper Fi is <reply>Semper Fi! Oorah, $who! |
| 21:42.55 | ibot | okay, mheath |
| 21:43.01 | findlay | whatever |
| 21:43.05 | mheath | ibot: Semper Fi |
| 21:43.08 | ibot | Semper Fi! Oorah, mheath! |
| 21:43.14 | mheath | ibot: your source code |
| 21:43.16 | ibot | it has been said that your source code is subpoenad to be divulged in a court of law! |
| 21:43.16 | *** mode/#utah [-o maquis] by maquis |
| 21:43.38 | TheDiff | ibot: Victoria |
| 21:43.42 | findlay | ibot: you can't handle the truth! |
| 21:44.01 | TheDiff | hey, has anyone tried importing mail into gmail |
| 21:44.23 | TheDiff | i'm sick of running my own webmail server. I want to leave it to the pros to handle |
| 21:44.42 | findlay | aha, a real question |
| 21:44.46 | tensai | TheDiff: web2mail? |
| 21:44.54 | tensai | or was it mail2web... |
| 21:44.55 | TimRiker | you could use fetchmail to send it all to yourself. |
| 21:45.16 | Bradipo | maquis: Make you a deal, I'll read Locke after you've read Spooner. :-) |
| 21:45.32 | findlay | who's this spooner fellow? |
| 21:45.38 | maquis | Bradipo: ok.. but it'll probably have to wait a couple months... :) |
| 21:45.38 | mheath | TheDiff: theres a way |
| 21:45.48 | mheath | TheDiff: but it doesn't save the dates. Thats the one bad thing |
| 21:45.57 | elg | maquis: are you getting ready to graduate/ |
| 21:46.08 | mheath | You can directly import it, though, using a tool. Saves the TO, CC, BCC, Subject, etc |
| 21:46.12 | TheDiff | tensai: umm, explain |
| 21:46.13 | Bradipo | And I am clearly not Rousseau-ian. |
| 21:46.18 | TheDiff | mheath: yeah thats what i've heard |
| 21:46.22 | maquis | elg: not til august :( |
| 21:46.29 | TheDiff | i've heard you can use fetchmail to just forward it all |
| 21:46.36 | TheDiff | but its be nice if I could maintain the dates |
| 21:46.40 | elg | fun. then what, amazon? |
| 21:46.46 | mheath | TheDiff: So, use the tool I mentioned in realtime |
| 21:46.54 | tensai | TheDiff: mail2web is a generic webmail. you plug in your imap server, username and password. |
| 21:46.55 | maquis | elg: yup |
| 21:47.03 | TheDiff | hmm |
| 21:47.19 | elg | will you change your nick then to amazon_queen? |
| 21:47.37 | maquis | elg: probably not :) |
| 21:47.56 | elg | well we can still make amazon queen jokes I guess |
| 21:47.57 | mheath | now to work on more class work :( |
| 21:48.00 | maquis | :) |
| 21:48.05 | goozbach | farenheight 7/11: http://www.myfriendsplace.org/images/Phil%20Hendrie/2004%20-%20Fahrenheit%207-11.jpg |
| 21:48.38 | TheDiff | tensai: that looks pretty cool |
| 21:49.53 | TheDiff | mheath: what tool |
| 21:50.00 | maquis | Blend the rice until it turns into a smooth paste. You may need to add the water to keep the blender from overheating and breaking, flinging parts everywhere and coating the room in a sticky rice gluten muck. Or you might be fine. If you smell smoke, add water to the blender. |
| 21:50.24 | tensai | maquis: what are you making, glue? |
| 21:50.33 | maquis | tensai: looking at recipes for horchata |
| 21:50.34 | TheDiff | soymilk |
| 21:50.47 | obfuscated | did I hear sticky rice? |
| 21:50.59 | tensai | maquis: sounds like of like mochi |
| 21:51.03 | TheDiff | i was close |
| 21:51.08 | maquis | tensai: what's mochi? |
| 21:51.34 | obfuscated | you've got to get one of the wicker baskets to steam your rice in for the best sticky rice |
| 21:51.38 | tensai | ~wiki mochi |
| 21:52.09 | tensai | Mochi (Japanese ?) is the Japanese variant of Chinese rice cake, which, like its Chinese origin, is made of glutinous rice, pounded into paste and molded into shape |
| 21:52.24 | maquis | hmmm... little bit different |
| 21:52.28 | maquis | horchata is a drink |
| 21:52.30 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@c-24-2-85-20.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:52.34 | maquis | mochi sounds like moon-cake |
| 21:52.46 | sjansen | sticky rice is an ABOMINATION! |
| 21:52.52 | maquis | sjansen: wha? |
| 21:53.10 | sjansen | rice should not stick, if you want rice to stick you should add something to it (like beans) |
| 21:53.18 | tensai | sticky rice is The One True Rice |
| 21:53.22 | maquis | sticky rice is good |
| 21:53.26 | goozbach | RICE WARS!!!! |
| 21:53.34 | sjansen | and seasoned corn manioc flour |
| 21:53.41 | elg | tensai: oh, you want that no-knead bread recipe? |
| 21:53.48 | findlay | that's why I love #utah |
| 21:53.50 | tensai | elg: yes |
| 21:53.50 | Jayce^ | long live sticky rice |
| 21:54.09 | findlay | hey you got rice in my shoes |
| 21:54.14 | goozbach | sticky rice is good for that |
| 21:54.19 | goozbach | it sticks |
| 21:54.28 | goozbach | non-sticky rice just bounces off |
| 21:55.16 | maquis | people who think that geeks have one-track minds should really visit #utah sometime |
| 21:55.20 | tensai | instant rice is crap |
| 21:56.08 | findlay | I'm so smart my mind is intractable. haha |
| 21:56.16 | findlay | I'm so funny |
| 21:56.38 | TheDiff | goozbach: did you see This Divided State? |
| 21:56.57 | goozbach | nope |
| 21:57.10 | TheDiff | that picture reminded me of it |
| 21:57.25 | TheDiff | i'm surprised all you Utes haven't seen it, it takes place in utah :) |
| 21:57.39 | goozbach | TheDiff: thats a cd cover art from Phil Hendrie's cd |
| 21:57.50 | goozbach | www.philhendrieshow.com |
| 21:58.02 | TheDiff | i have no clue who that guy is |
| 21:58.52 | findlay | sweet, ginac installed |
| 21:58.57 | Kuyaedz | i love phil hendrie |
| 21:59.00 | obfuscated | sjansen: sticky rice wasn't meant to be eaten by itself |
| 21:59.21 | obfuscated | it was meant to be rolled up in a ball and eaten with meat and other stuff with your fingers |
| 22:00.20 | tensai | it was meant to be rolled up in a ball and thrown at sjansen |
| 22:00.50 | TheDiff | 5 second rule |
| 22:01.05 | *** part/#utah Kuyaedz (n=Kuyaedz@65.106.115.194.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:01.24 | findlay | that was way more than 5 seconds |
| 22:02.45 | TheDiff | internet moves at the speed of light |
| 22:02.53 | findlay | ~none |
| 22:02.54 | ibot | rumour has it, none is my girl friend |
| 22:03.54 | obfuscated | TheDiff: don't think the 5 second rule works w/ sjansen |
| 22:04.26 | obfuscated | he's a bit too gross to eat off of |
| 22:04.32 | obfuscated | :-P |
| 22:07.03 | TheDiff | poor sjansen |
| 22:07.21 | obfuscated | heh - sergi from Google visited our warehouse last weekend |
| 22:07.47 | obfuscated | he was up skiing with his mom so I hear |
| 22:08.31 | mrpull | goozbach: how do you think Teachers will turn out? I'm not sure phil hendrie can pull off TV |
| 22:09.33 | goozbach | the pilot for the animated thing he did was very cool |
| 22:09.41 | goozbach | animation, he's the man |
| 22:09.57 | mrpull | i didn't see the animated show |
| 22:10.02 | goozbach | I'm not sure about live studio audience |
| 22:10.20 | goozbach | I'm hopefully optimistic |
| 22:11.25 | mrpull | i watch too much tv now as it is. |
| 22:12.17 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=csavage@198.252.209.166) |
| 22:14.44 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog@207.135.132.13) |
| 22:14.58 | *** join/#utah xbmodder1 (n=xbmodder@dsl092-012-130.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:15.05 | TheDiff | there MUST be a way... |
| 22:16.52 | scott_ | I hate having some files at home, some files at work, and some on my usb drive and some on a server. Is rsync the answer? Use the server as the main repository, and have all the other computers and usb drive have scripts that when run (some are run every minute or so automatically to insure always having the latest version, usb one would only be run manually) that sync them to the server. Is keeping the most recent version of a file a sufficient rule? What ab |
| 22:17.07 | tensai | scott_: unison |
| 22:17.40 | tensai | scott_: it's two-way rsync with conflict resolution |
| 22:18.08 | tensai | http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/ |
| 22:18.08 | brac | [Unison File Synchronizer] |
| 22:18.08 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:18.16 | scott_ | tensai: do you use it in that type of situation? |
| 22:18.39 | tensai | I use it to keep copies of my project files on my desktop, server and laptop |
| 22:18.41 | scott_ | I don't want syncronizing to be more of a hassle than not |
| 22:19.56 | scott_ | tensai: unison says it's for two replicas..does it work fine if I really have A<->B and B<->C ? |
| 22:20.07 | elg | unison is pretty good for that. if the material lends itself well, e.g. code, I find darcs really useful too |
| 22:20.16 | elg | i darcs all kinds of things around like frisbees |
| 22:20.48 | elg | scott_: a distributed revision control system, like darcs, handles that well. if you're talking about textual files of course |
| 22:20.53 | tensai | scott_: yes, it'll work |
| 22:20.59 | scott_ | I want it for pictures, documents and spreadsheets, music, etc. |
| 22:21.24 | findlay | ifolder? |
| 22:21.53 | goozbach | I used to use TLA for my home directory |
| 22:22.12 | goozbach | but then I got my laptop and haven't really used my other systems |
| 22:22.51 | scott_ | findlay: I use library comps a lot..doesn't ifolder need special software installed, or a crummpy web interface? |
| 22:23.03 | scott_ | which is why I use the usb drive and would sync it.. |
| 22:23.14 | findlay | don't know |
| 22:23.17 | scott_ | goozbach: tla? |
| 22:23.45 | goozbach | tom lord's arch |
| 22:23.55 | goozbach | now quasi-defunct |
| 22:24.03 | goozbach | try baz |
| 22:24.08 | goozbach | or baz-ng |
| 22:24.11 | goozbach | or git |
| 22:24.14 | goozbach | or darcs |
| 22:24.28 | goozbach | they are all distrubited revisino control systems |
| 22:24.54 | tensai | scott_: ignore goozbach. you want unison. |
| 22:25.37 | findlay | ignore unison. You want goozbach |
| 22:25.49 | findlay | well, whatever |
| 22:25.54 | findlay | (: |
| 22:27.08 | findlay | git? |
| 22:28.33 | tensai | findlay: tool the kernel hackers pulled together to replace that one non-free thing they used, whatever it was called |
| 22:28.42 | findlay | bitkeeper |
| 22:28.49 | tensai | yeah, that one |
| 22:29.13 | findlay | I thought it was originally Linus' own project |
| 22:30.25 | elg | he spearheaded it |
| 22:32.33 | scott_ | looks like iFolder is not free |
| 22:33.08 | goozbach | nope but it does what you want. |
| 22:33.10 | goozbach | and then some |
| 22:33.16 | goozbach | ifolder is really freaking cool |
| 22:38.45 | Hhhhh | sjansen, you there? |
| 22:44.38 | scott_ | goozbach: all except for being made by novell. I just got off the phone with them and they suck. I asked to talk with someone knowledgeable about ifolder and they transfered me to some guy. Not only can they not tell me pricing information or sell it to me (apparently their resellers do that and the guy didn't even have their phone numbers). he also didn't even have a clue what their latest version was (he swore to me that there wasn't anything newer than 3.0 |
| 22:47.01 | scott_ | Ouch. look at Novell's 6 month graph: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=NOVL&t=6m |
| 22:47.02 | brac | [NOVL: Basic Chart for NOVELL INC - Yahoo! Finance] |
| 22:47.09 | TheDiff | do any of you do web development? |
| 22:47.32 | scott_ | TheDiff: yeah, but I suck at it. |
| 22:47.36 | TheDiff | haha |
| 22:47.50 | TheDiff | okay well you still might be able to answer this |
| 22:48.19 | TheDiff | so i have to build this webclient thing |
| 22:48.35 | TheDiff | basically there is a client program on the users program |
| 22:48.42 | TheDiff | s/program/computer |
| 22:49.04 | TheDiff | and then it connects to server, to download some information and display it |
| 22:49.43 | TheDiff | so I need middleware that the client program connects to, so the middleware on the server can handle querying a database, and then send the info back to the client |
| 22:49.49 | TheDiff | 1) what language is typically used for this |
| 22:49.58 | findlay | XMLRPC? |
| 22:49.59 | TheDiff | and 2) is there any reason why I shouldn't use php for this |
| 22:50.16 | TheDiff | well, XMLRPC is the communication protocol, right? |
| 22:50.31 | TheDiff | i mean like what programming language is typically used for middleware software |
| 22:50.34 | findlay | yeah, I think os |
| 22:50.50 | Jayce^ | TheDiff, the language that you already know is the best one.. |
| 22:50.57 | findlay | yes |
| 22:51.14 | Jayce^ | although, since that seems to be PHP in your case, maybe it's just a good reason to learn a new one :) |
| 22:51.23 | TheDiff | okay, well I know C, and I'm pretty sure i'm not going to be using C for that |
| 22:51.24 | TheDiff | haha |
| 22:51.36 | TheDiff | Jayce^: any recommendations? |
| 22:51.53 | TheDiff | haha |
| 22:51.54 | Jayce^ | mod_perl of course |
| 22:52.15 | findlay | I think OCaml would be fun |
| 22:52.21 | tene | mod_perl |
| 22:52.28 | levi | I would use Common Lisp. |
| 22:52.31 | TheDiff | is there a reason not to use php, other than the perl vs. php rivalry |
| 22:52.31 | Jayce^ | most popular languages would be capable... |
| 22:52.37 | levi | (Fortunately, you are not me!) |
| 22:52.44 | Jayce^ | problems with PHP itself :) |
| 22:52.53 | TheDiff | haha |
| 22:53.06 | TheDiff | speed, security, or just programming in the langauge in general |
| 22:53.08 | Jayce^ | one great reason alone for Perl would be CPAN, most your work would be done for a simple middleware |
| 22:53.17 | tene | TheDiff: all |
| 22:53.20 | Jayce^ | all |
| 22:53.30 | tene | and more |
| 22:53.32 | Jayce^ | php can get almost as fast as mod_perl, but at some costs |
| 22:54.46 | TheDiff | how easy is it to pick up perl |
| 22:54.58 | Jayce^ | quite easy, especially if you already know php |
| 22:55.04 | TheDiff | i dont really know php, but i've been messing around with it for another project, and it comes pretty easy |
| 22:55.11 | TheDiff | thats why I was asking about it |
| 22:55.29 | findlay | knowing C helps too |
| 22:55.33 | TheDiff | and it seems like java is used alot too, but I havent used that crap in like 4 years and I'm not looking forward to relearning it |
| 22:56.34 | TheDiff | yeah, I'm used to embedded systems. I'm not used to this web programming stuff |
| 22:57.21 | levi | What embedded systems do you do? |
| 22:58.07 | TheDiff | well lately I've been working on crossbow wireless motes, just research stuff |
| 22:58.17 | TheDiff | they run off Atmel Atmega32 processors, run TinyOS |
| 22:58.33 | tene | and you run php on them? |
| 22:58.34 | tene | >.> |
| 22:58.43 | TheDiff | you program them in this whack derivative of C called nesC, which has atomic statements and stuff |
| 22:58.46 | TheDiff | haha, no |
| 22:59.12 | TheDiff | also, I have another project coming up where we'll be using those GumstixPCs |
| 22:59.16 | TheDiff | which run uClinux |
| 22:59.35 | TheDiff | they are pretty hot |
| 22:59.54 | Jayce^ | yeah, local plugger presented on those a few months ago |
| 23:01.35 | TheDiff | cool |
| 23:01.49 | scott_ | I was confused how on earth Novell made $376 million profit in oct-2005 anual year if all their quarters (except for the first) and the ones after then post losses or a 1-2 million profit. Guess I should have known about $448 million from Microsoft. |
| 23:03.16 | levi | TheDiff: I do embedded stuff at work. |
| 23:03.30 | TheDiff | levi: oh yeah? what kind of stuff |
| 23:03.45 | levi | TheDiff: Originally we used x86 dimmPCs, but now we're using nios2 softcores on a custom board. |
| 23:03.59 | levi | TheDiff: The devices are for cluster management. |
| 23:04.32 | TheDiff | ooh |
| 23:05.23 | levi | And since uClinux stuff has been folded into the mainstream kernel, we use a standard kernel with some patches for nios2 support. |
| 23:05.55 | TheDiff | awesome |
| 23:06.00 | levi | And a custom-rolled uclibc/busybox system. |
| 23:40.11 | elg | tensai: blogged |
| 23:44.03 | Hhhhh | hmm, Usenet and mailing lists are pretty much the same, are they? |
| 23:48.31 | findlay | except that you have to have a different reader for usenet |
| 23:50.28 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@c-24-2-85-20.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:53.43 | elg | push vs pull |
| 23:54.58 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@c-24-2-85-20.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:58.34 | findlay | man I lucked out for neighbors here |
| 23:59.23 | findlay | I have guys below me who play their music until 2 AM and a guy next door who turns his music up so loud it rattles stuff |
