| 00:00.11 | levi | Rumbi Island Grill, if you want a rice bowl or yummy salad. |
| 00:00.14 | jsmith | Lone_Wanderer: If you like fish, about two blocks east is Neil's |
| 00:00.23 | Lone_Wanderer | soup and sandwich sounds good |
| 00:00.46 | *** part/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@12-208-14-28.client.insightBB.com) |
| 00:00.51 | jsmith | I went there about two weeks ago, and it was delicious |
| 00:01.14 | levi | Where are you that puts you in the 106th S area? |
| 00:02.45 | Lone_Wanderer | at work |
| 00:03.23 | bonez39 | yeah, I'd hit Olive Garden if I were there.or if you like GOOD fish, hit 123rd, and Niel's Fish |
| 00:03.54 | bonez39 | levi, you can keep Guadalahonky's..I was underwhelmed there... |
| 00:04.19 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Well, I figured you were at work, but where's that? |
| 00:04.36 | levi | bonez39: Some of the stuff I've had there was yummy. |
| 00:04.47 | Lone_Wanderer | levi - just off of 106th south ;) |
| 00:05.26 | RyanE | Lone_Wanderer: you're being pretty vague... :) off 106th could mean you're a mall jockey, but not many of them are on IRC. |
| 00:06.10 | levi | Probably one of those buildings in the ebay complex. |
| 00:06.24 | levi | Though I guess that's closer to 123rd. |
| 00:07.41 | RyanE | yeah, that's closer to 123rd. |
| 00:07.46 | RyanE | that's pretty close to where I work. |
| 00:09.05 | levi | Hmm, there's a new company in the building that Convergys used to be in. |
| 00:09.09 | levi | Starts with an X. |
| 00:12.07 | RyanE | that time again. |
| 00:17.12 | levi | Xango, that's the name. |
| 00:19.51 | bonez39 | Xango is over there where Convergys was? |
| 00:20.02 | bonez39 | is that right? |
| 00:28.07 | levi | I think they're in the old Convergys building now. At least I think I saw a Xango sign on it last time I drove past. |
| 00:28.38 | levi | I imagine it's a satelllite building, since their main building seems to be at Thanksgiving Point. |
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| 00:33.08 | Newsome | so, what _is_ a Xango? |
| 00:33.38 | levi | A company that sells mangosteen juice drinks via MLM. |
| 00:35.19 | Newsome | hmm...didn't we have enough companies with the business model "sell <foo> drink by MLM" here in Utah already? |
| 00:37.21 | levi | We've got plenty that have been wildly successful with the 'sell <x> by MLM' model, why not one more? |
| 00:37.42 | levi | I mean, they must have been wildly successful because they have huge buildings. |
| 00:38.03 | Newsome | hmm, good point |
| 00:40.07 | levi | Not to mention having their names on venues and stuff like that. |
| 00:40.22 | levi | Which, frankly, makes me embarrassed for Utah. |
| 00:40.37 | Lone_Wanderer | !seen sjansen |
| 00:40.44 | Lone_Wanderer | ~seen sjansen |
| 00:40.50 | ibot | sjansen is currently on #utah (42m 56s) |
| 00:40.50 | Newsome | heh. you're not the only one |
| 00:40.51 | Lone_Wanderer | hmm |
| 00:40.59 | hans | ~smack sjansen |
| 00:41.00 | ibot | ACTION smacks sjansen upside the head. |
| 00:41.14 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: So, will you confirm or deny your employment with Xango? ;) |
| 00:41.23 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm not employed with Xango. |
| 00:41.37 | Lone_Wanderer | ;) |
| 00:42.14 | levi | Hmm. |
| 00:42.38 | Lone_Wanderer | Does anyone here (cough cough) know whether it's possible to have javascript detect a browser's DHTML capability and do one of two things depending on what it finds? I'm looking at http://www.mattkruse.com/javascript/colorpicker/ that, and it has a DHTML window version and a normal popup version. |
| 00:42.39 | brac | [JavaScript Toolbox - Color Picker Swatch Popup] |
| 00:42.42 | levi | You're not going to tell us who employs you? |
| 00:42.43 | Newsome | that's irrelevant. levi asked _whether_ you would confirm or deny :) |
| 00:42.59 | Lone_Wanderer | woah. what's brac? |
| 00:43.09 | hans | ~brrac |
| 00:43.10 | hans | ~brac |
| 00:43.12 | ibot | i heard brac is the enemy |
| 00:43.12 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, is that what you're wondering? |
| 00:43.16 | levi | brac is a bot that does what you just saw. |
| 00:43.18 | Newsome | ;) |
| 00:43.31 | hans | -brac? |
| 00:43.31 | brac | no clue |
| 00:43.33 | hans | -ibot? |
| 00:43.34 | brac | ibot is the enemy |
| 00:43.59 | Lone_Wanderer | I work for a company called Twin Peaks Technology, which really consists of me and my boss. |
| 00:44.25 | levi | Hmm, cool. What do you do there? |
| 00:44.28 | Lone_Wanderer | program |
| 00:44.36 | Lone_Wanderer | php and (currently) javascript |
| 00:44.45 | Lone_Wanderer | go ahead and laugh ;) |
| 00:45.23 | levi | Hey, I code in C for my job. |
| 00:45.23 | maquis | at least it's not vb |
| 00:45.33 | maquis | levi: i'd prefer that over php and javascript :) |
| 00:45.39 | levi | maquis: I know YOU would. |
| 00:45.42 | maquis | :) |
| 00:45.46 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd prefer a job writing C I think. |
| 00:45.48 | Lone_Wanderer | I do'nt know it very well. |
| 00:45.51 | maquis | levi: would you prefer VB? |
| 00:45.53 | Lone_Wanderer | don't |
| 00:45.57 | levi | maquis: Probably not. |
| 00:46.03 | maquis | levi: thought so :) |
| 00:46.09 | Lone_Wanderer | so, sjansen... got any answer about my javascript problem? |
| 00:46.40 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: I wondered, given your past interest in Lispy things, if you used Lisp there. |
| 00:46.50 | Lone_Wanderer | sadly, no |
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| 00:47.55 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd learn Lisp better with the intention of getting a job doing it, but I suspect I'd need a PhD for that, or at least a BS, neither of which I have. |
| 00:48.33 | levi | Well, a BS is helpful in general. |
| 00:49.33 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah, I know |
| 00:49.52 | levi | The key thing you'd need to get a job writing Lisp is a boss who would let you write in Lisp. |
| 00:49.52 | Lone_Wanderer | but if I go back to school, it's going to be pursuing a pilot's license, not a BS |
| 00:50.54 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess I could try and talk my current boss into it |
| 00:51.21 | Lone_Wanderer | but our last conversation about what technology to use resulted in his uttering a sentence that contained both the words "high end tools" and "FrontPage" |
| 00:51.33 | Lone_Wanderer | (without any negations) |
| 00:52.56 | *** part/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@166.70.183.108) |
| 00:53.31 | levi | Hrm, that doesn't sound promising. |
| 00:54.17 | Lone_Wanderer | and not having a BS does lend itself to people thinking that you don't know what you're talking about, I've found |
| 00:58.56 | levi | Well, it's about time for me to take off. |
| 00:59.23 | Lone_Wanderer | take off eh |
| 00:59.25 | Lone_Wanderer | ya hoser |
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| 01:03.23 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 01:11.40 | goozbach | buhahah!!! |
| 01:11.51 | goozbach | cAoslinux is now alive!!! |
| 01:12.13 | goozbach | XEN++ |
| 01:55.54 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Most of the time, you can just check if a function is defined. "if document.findById { foo = document.findById('foo'); }" |
| 02:00.45 | Lone_Wanderer | sjansen: kk so I just need to find out what the DHTML version does that the "vanilla popup" version doesn't and test for that? |
| 02:06.22 | sjansen | pretty much |
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| 02:26.18 | Lone_Wanderer | great |
| 02:26.29 | Lone_Wanderer | my family is threatening to take my stuff to DI if I don't come get it NOW |
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| 02:56.55 | mheath | Wow. |
| 02:57.17 | mheath | Disappointing how slow it is, though :( |
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| 03:10.41 | tensai | -lart hans |
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| 03:12.55 | mheath | hahaha |
| 03:13.16 | mheath | I just had someone tell me it would be easier and take less lines of code to write a basic interpreter than a lisp interpreter :D |
| 03:13.32 | *** part/#utah wps (n=wade@65.73.113.199) |
| 03:13.34 | *** part/#utah wps_ (n=wade@65.73.113.199) |
| 03:37.33 | mheath | Hmm, Deer Valley Vs Park City Vs The Canyons Vs Snow Basin vs Powder Mountain...hmm |
| 03:37.57 | hans | alta |
| 03:39.49 | Lone_Wanderer | mheath: isn't a lisp interpreter really, really simple? |
| 03:41.48 | mheath | Lone_Wanderer: Yes. |
| 03:41.57 | mheath | Whereas a Basic interpreter is rather complex |
| 03:46.10 | hans | good ol' fashioned basic isn't so bad |
| 03:46.23 | hans | to parse |
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| 04:12.11 | levi | Woohoo, 4.0 this term. |
| 04:16.10 | tensai | congratulations |
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| 04:18.14 | xbmodder_lappy | me back! |
| 04:18.19 | xbmodder_lappy | ~lart surfdue |
| 04:19.43 | xbmodder_lappy | ~lart surfdue |
| 04:36.31 | mheath | ~lart xbmodder_lappy for abusing lart |
| 04:37.10 | mheath | levi: Impressive. |
| 04:37.36 | *** part/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@adsl-69-111-248-88.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net) |
| 04:39.08 | levi | Apparently my writing prof. liked my paper. |
| 04:39.16 | xbmodder_lappy | cool |
| 04:51.21 | levi | http://lifeoflevi.com/CDeficiencies.pdf |
| 04:53.52 | pjw | papers that reference sussman and abelson get an automatic one letter grade bump up. |
| 05:05.45 | RyanE_away | levi: finally, I can read 'the paper'. :) |
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| 05:19.26 | levi | pjw: And Steele, too. |
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| 06:33.51 | maquis | narnia is good, bt |
| 06:33.53 | maquis | btw |
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| 06:44.26 | findlay | is anyone here, like, right now? |
| 06:45.19 | maquis | findlay: nope |
| 06:45.49 | findlay | maquis: have you any experience with foomatic? |
| 06:46.03 | maquis | hmmm |
| 06:46.10 | maquis | i have experience with variables named foo |
| 06:46.13 | maquis | and boo |
| 06:46.18 | maquis | and bar |
| 06:46.27 | findlay | but not printers? |
| 06:46.35 | maquis | findlay: cups |
| 06:46.47 | goozbach | GITS:SAC kicks trash |
| 06:47.17 | maquis | huh? |
| 06:48.21 | levi | Did any of you look at my paper? |
| 06:49.18 | RyanE | levi: downloaded, not read yet. Probably lunchtime tomorrow. |
| 06:49.23 | RyanE | but thanks for offering it up. |
| 06:49.39 | findlay | levi: I'll read it if you tell how to change a cups driver |
| 06:51.03 | levi | findlay: You can't /really/ drive the teacups. You just sit in them and get whirled around until the ride stops or you hork. |
| 06:51.20 | goozbach | Ghost in the Shell:Stand Alone Complex |
| 06:51.34 | RyanE | levi: yes, but you can drive the teacups either clockwise or counterclockwise within the turning and whirling. |
| 06:52.25 | levi | A very limited form of driving. And, in that case, you change the driver by exiting the cup (after it has come to a full stop!) and letting someone else on. |
| 06:52.34 | RyanE | true, this |
| 06:53.03 | RyanE | if you want to get complicated, you can change the driver while the cups are still loaded. One driver must stop controlling the cups, however, to allow the other. |
| 06:53.09 | RyanE | it's cooperative multitasking |
| 06:54.14 | maquis | levi: where? |
| 06:54.36 | RyanE | http://lifeoflevi.com/CDeficiencies.pdf |
| 06:55.08 | maquis | cool |
| 06:55.20 | maquis | i'll download it, and read it when i get the chance |
| 06:57.31 | levi | I got an A on it, so I figure the professor wasn't terribly picky. |
| 06:57.45 | RyanE | that, or it was good. :) |
| 06:59.07 | maquis | haha |
| 07:00.41 | levi | Well, I suppose that's a possibility, but I doubt the professor has the background to make much judgement on the content. Though I guess he must have thought the structure of the argument was good enough. |
| 07:02.04 | findlay | so nobody here knows anything about printers then? |
| 07:02.29 | RyanE | findlay: I know that when I set mine up, I just started up cups, and added the printer using the web interface. |
| 07:02.35 | RyanE | of course, it's been so long I could be mistaken. |
| 07:02.36 | levi | findlay: I know that I installed the printer driver that came with the printer on my Mac, and it works. |
| 07:03.00 | maquis | http://techdirt.com/articles/20051219/1717250_F.shtml |
| 07:03.03 | brac | [Techdirt:Hacker Detection Firm... Hacked] |
| 07:03.20 | levi | And that printing to something other than a postscript printer via Linux is far too annoying to think about. |
| 07:03.24 | RyanE | yeah, but I'll bet they detected it. :) |
| 07:03.47 | RyanE | well, the HPLJ PCL drivers aren't too bad. |
| 07:04.05 | RyanE | that's what I've always used. The actual PostScript printers were too expensive at the time. |
| 07:04.23 | findlay | what I need to do is change the driver from hpijs to hplip |
| 07:04.25 | levi | RyanE: They did detect it... 2 weeks later. |
| 07:04.35 | RyanE | ouch |
| 07:04.43 | levi | findlay: Go to the cups web interface. |
| 07:05.02 | levi | RyanE: And then they had to tell all their customers that hackers stole their CC information. |
| 07:05.19 | levi | RyanE: I suspect they are in for bad times. |
| 07:05.23 | RyanE | levi: yeah, I just read the summary. |
| 07:05.36 | RyanE | unfortunately, new customers won't hear this until the money is already spent. |
| 07:06.18 | maquis | yeah... |
| 07:06.39 | findlay | the cups web interface doesn't seem to want to let me change the driver |
| 07:06.45 | levi | Hmm, apparently they're really in the computer forensic analysis software business, not intrusion prevention. |
| 07:06.49 | RyanE | besides, PHB's don't do much checking into that sort of thing. |
| 07:06.50 | maquis | and some lady had her cell phone cloned, but the cell phone company says she still has to pay the 12,000$ bill, because she didn't report it until she got her bill |
| 07:07.08 | maquis | (schneier talks about that) |
| 07:07.13 | levi | findlay: Perhaps if you create a new printer and delete the old one. |
| 07:07.22 | levi | 'maquis Cell phone companies are the devil. |
| 07:07.23 | maquis | findlay: that does work for me when cups dies |
| 07:07.32 | maquis | levi: yes... but that's just stupid' |
| 07:07.34 | RyanE | i think she's resolved that now. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051219.wxcellphone19/BNStory/National/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20051219.wxcellphone19 |
| 07:07.35 | brac | [The Globe and Mail: $12,000 bill forgiven, Rogers will come to tea] |
| 07:07.50 | findlay | levi: no good |
| 07:07.53 | maquis | ah... that's newer than what schneier wrote.. |
| 07:07.58 | maquis | still... it's stupid |
| 07:08.13 | levi | maquis: Indeed. Welcome to the world of telecommunications! |
| 07:09.59 | RyanE | she was in Israel at the time, hard to contact the cell phone company without a cell phone. :) |
| 07:10.38 | maquis | it's interesting, apparently the cell phone companies will let the meter run if they think the customer has the means to pay... but will cut off service if the customer is lower-income or has poor credit |
| 07:12.45 | findlay | OK, looks like I can scan after all with the hpijs driver |
| 07:13.20 | findlay | in the coming weeks, though, I'm going to become a printing guru (-: |
| 07:13.44 | levi | maquis: They run a credit check when you activate your phone, and that represents how much they'll let you run it up before shutting down. |
| 07:13.45 | maquis | hehe |
| 07:13.52 | RyanE | findlay: yeah, good luck with that. :) |
| 07:14.01 | maquis | january 2004, bill gate said that the spam problem would be conquered in 2 years... |
| 07:14.08 | maquis | 36 days left |
| 07:14.29 | maquis | levi: that's not what schneier explained, but i don't know for sure |
| 07:14.50 | findlay | senderid is long dead |
| 07:15.26 | levi | Well, Sprint did that to me. I have a $200 limit for my cell bill. I had crappy credit due to a mixup with some billing stuff a long time ago. |
| 07:16.38 | findlay | now I just need to start figuring out what goes on behind all the fancy guis |
| 07:17.05 | findlay | it seems hp has excellent open source support for their printers |
| 07:22.50 | Newsome | ~praise Dremel |
| 07:22.51 | ibot | All hail Dremel! |
| 07:23.23 | maquis | ?? |
| 07:24.59 | Newsome | we had a couple pieces missing in one of our puzzles, so I used my Dremel to file down a piece of plastic to fit the missing pieces |
| 07:32.39 | maquis | hahaha |
| 07:36.21 | amcnabb | Java makes me mad. |
| 07:37.06 | amcnabb | I wanted to test something, so I put in some extra code and put a return statement right after it so it would quit early. |
| 07:37.35 | amcnabb | Javac says, "unreachable statement" (for stuff right after the return line, and it refuses to compile. |
| 07:37.59 | amcnabb | I know it's unreachable! That's why I put return there--so it would be unreachable! |
| 07:43.18 | Newsome | unreachable code is an error? not just a warning? How lame. |
| 07:45.20 | amcnabb | That's what I thought. |
| 07:45.49 | amcnabb | I'm not sure they have warnings. The compiler seems to die over dumb stuff a lot. |
| 07:47.19 | maquis | amcnabb: that is stupid... |
| 07:47.41 | maquis | one workaround, i guess would be to comment out everything after that.... but you shouldn't have to do that |
| 07:47.53 | amcnabb | That's what I ended up doing. |
| 07:55.53 | maquis | man... |
| 07:56.03 | maquis | thedailywtf.com is bad today |
| 08:11.07 | Newsome | wow |
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| 14:09.46 | graphyx | morning. |
| 14:13.00 | graphyx | -weather |
| 14:13.01 | brac | 18 minutes ago, on Tue Dec 20 13:55:00 UTC 2005, the wind was blowing at a speed of 1.54 meters per second (3.45 miles per hour) from the North at KPVU. The temperature was 1 degrees Celsius (34 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1031 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 80.3%. There were scattered clouds at a height of 914 meters (3000 feet) and overcast clouds at a height of 1097 meters (3600 feet). |
| 14:14.34 | Newsome | thanks. Now I don't have to look outside! |
| 14:15.20 | graphyx | It's actually not that bad comparatively. |
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| 15:15.11 | graphyx | http://www.morganquitno.com/xcit06pop.htm#100-499 |
| 15:15.13 | brac | [City Crime Rankings by Population Group] |
| 15:15.23 | graphyx | Provo,UT and Orem, UT rank quite high on the safest cities. |
| 15:15.40 | graphyx | 10th for their respective demographic. |
| 15:15.44 | graphyx | Orem is 14th overall. |
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| 15:27.14 | hatchmt | I used to live in #8 on the dangerous list - Richmond, CA. Fun place, if you want to die... |
| 15:29.45 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@cust-66-182-88-219.bbsc.net) |
| 15:30.16 | levi | Sweet, the oil change place has free internet access! |
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| 15:37.56 | RyanE | levi: which one? |
| 15:38.28 | levi | GT Automotive |
| 15:38.38 | levi | This is the one on 106th S |
| 15:39.19 | RyanE | cool. |
| 15:40.29 | levi | Nice building, the people seem professional. |
| 15:40.38 | levi | And I've got something to do while I wait. :) |
| 16:01.21 | graphyx | Hey, that right there can make the 1-2$ difference worthwhile. |
| 16:01.32 | graphyx | Those 15 minutes of everquest are oh so precious... ;) |
| 16:04.19 | levi | They're doing an oil change, emissions and safety inspections, and tire rotation. So it's a little more than 15 minutes. |
| 16:04.36 | graphyx | oh so 30 mins.. |
| 16:04.41 | graphyx | even better. |
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| 16:07.46 | hans | -lart vontrapp |
| 16:08.11 | hans | -lart tensai |
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| 16:14.38 | levi | hans: So, did you see the URL for my paper? |
| 16:14.57 | graphyx | -rsp |
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| 16:26.30 | hans | no |
| 16:34.27 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 16:34.27 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 16:36.24 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@166.70.183.108) |
| 16:39.16 | tensai | -urls |
| 16:39.17 | brac | [2005/12/20 08:15:13] <graphyx> http://www.morganquitno.com/xcit06pop.htm#100-499 |
| 16:39.17 | brac | [2005/12/20 00:07:35] <RyanE> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051219.wxcellphone19/BNStory/National/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20051219.wxcellphone19 |
| 16:39.17 | brac | [2005/12/20 00:03:01] <maquis> http://techdirt.com/articles/20051219/1717250_F.shtml |
| 16:39.17 | brac | [2005/12/19 21:51:26] <levi> http://lifeoflevi.com/CDeficiencies.pdf |
| 16:46.04 | tensai | hans: do you use imap with mutt? |
| 16:49.08 | *** join/#utah byronc (n=byron@c-24-10-174-94.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:51.33 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 16:53.27 | levi | Yay, my car is now legal. |
| 16:54.24 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: that's good! |
| 16:54.33 | graphyx | nice. |
| 16:54.38 | levi | Yes, it means I can drive to Washington tomorrow. |
| 16:55.12 | sjansen | levi: heretic |
| 16:55.19 | levi | Of course, my pockets are several hundred dollars lighter, and I'm due to spend several more hundred to get the timing belt changed. |
| 16:55.28 | tensai | levi: you going to stop by and see me then? |
| 16:55.43 | Jayce^ | tensai, you think you're on the way to WA?? |
| 16:55.44 | levi | tensai: In IF? I'll be passing by there. |
| 16:55.45 | Uncle_Jesse | how long after you buy a car do you have to get it inspected? |
| 16:55.56 | Jayce^ | maybe spokane, but yeech.. why go there |
| 16:56.08 | tensai | levi: really? you should stop in. |
| 16:56.11 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: About a year afterward. |
| 16:56.21 | sjansen | How dare you criticize the Mother Language? I call all followers of the C to remove the heretic from among us! |
| 16:56.27 | levi | Jayce^: Which route do you take to WA that doesn't go right by IF? |
| 16:56.38 | Jayce^ | levi, go via boise of course |
| 16:56.44 | *** join/#utah pjw (n=pjw@panther.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:56.53 | levi | Jayce^: Um, yeah, but IF is on the way to Boise. |
| 16:56.56 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: so how do cops know you just bought the car? Does it note on your registration when they look up your license plate? |
| 16:57.08 | Jayce^ | levi, no, about 50 minutes East of Pocatello |
| 16:57.25 | Jayce^ | you go through Pocatello if you want, or take the cut route that's faster |
| 16:57.28 | tensai | levi: he's right. if you're going through Boise we're completely out of the way |
| 16:57.32 | Jayce^ | forget what freeway that is |
| 16:57.51 | Jayce^ | just near treemonton when the 15 splits |
| 16:57.53 | levi | Oh, maybe I'm thinking Twin Falls. |
| 16:58.02 | Jayce^ | levi, yeah that's on the way |
| 16:58.09 | tensai | 84 forks off in N. Utah and goes direct, 86 is between Pocatello and Burley. IF is on 15. |
| 16:58.11 | levi | Silly Idahoans and their 'Falls' towns. |
| 16:58.32 | levi | Yeah, I won't be going near IF, then. |
| 16:58.41 | Jayce^ | levi, hey, in that area, they're happy to have both water and elevation change in the same place, pretty big deal :) |
| 16:58.51 | tensai | levi: it's easy to remember, just sing this song. "Twin is where all the losers live" |
| 16:59.12 | Jayce^ | tensai, we are planning on hitting MT again this summer though, so we'll be heading through |
| 17:00.10 | tensai | Jayce^: cool. I'll have to plan something fun. |
| 17:00.36 | levi | sjansen: You knew I was a 'heretic' all along. I am, after all, an emacs user. |
| 17:01.32 | sjansen | Yes, but so far as I'm aware you never wrote a paper listing why (supposedly) Vim is old fashioned and best avoided. |
| 17:02.31 | levi | I wouldn't have nearly as much material on that. |
| 17:02.54 | RyanE | sjansen: even us C fanatics know it's got it's warts. C is *proud* of it's warts. :) |
| 17:03.18 | Uncle_Jesse | Seattle sucks :-P |
| 17:03.34 | *** kick/#utah [Uncle_Jesse!n=Jayce_@pollux.northsky.com] by Jayce^ (Jayce^) |
| 17:03.36 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 17:03.38 | sjansen | o/~ Washington is where all the losers are from. ~/o |
| 17:03.39 | Jayce^ | oh that felt good |
| 17:04.10 | levi | Boy, aren't we a friendly bunch this morning? Can you FEEL the LOVE?! |
| 17:04.32 | Jayce^ | hrm, sjansen wants levi kicked too, and sjansen should get it too :-p |
| 17:04.48 | Jayce^ | hey, I'm heading out of town tomorrow anyways, might as well go out with a bang right? |
| 17:05.33 | sjansen | Come see the violence inherent in the system! |
| 17:05.34 | levi | Jayce^: ! |
| 17:05.58 | Jayce^ | levi, well, if I kick sjansen, then kicking you will mitigate his pain, right? |
| 17:06.10 | levi | Jayce^: Not really. |
| 17:06.16 | Jayce^ | and kicking jesse mitigation all of our pain, right? :-D |
| 17:06.18 | sjansen | Help, help I'm being repressed! |
| 17:06.30 | RyanE | sjansen will *not* be satisfied unless *levi* is kicked *first*. |
| 17:06.33 | Jayce^ | sjansen, no, that would be if I turned on moderation :) |
| 17:06.40 | levi | RyanE: Aside from its warts and its ubiquity, what else has C got to be proud of? ;) |
| 17:06.54 | Jayce^ | true true, I think we'll just call the kicking of jesse fair, and call it good at that |
| 17:06.57 | RyanE | levi: damn fine pointers! |
| 17:07.08 | sjansen | It's not relegated to a niche position like lisp? |
| 17:07.22 | levi | sjansen: I already mentioned that. |
| 17:07.39 | sjansen | It's simplicity. |
| 17:08.17 | RyanE | it's popularity with Curmudgeons? |
| 17:08.38 | levi | sjansen: It's not actually terribly simple. People have got advanced degrees by researching and describing its semantics. |
| 17:11.04 | sjansen | Give me something more simple that isn't a toy? |
| 17:11.13 | levi | Scheme |
| 17:11.50 | sjansen | Too easy. Scheme doesn't count 'cause no one uses it. |
| 17:11.56 | levi | Uh, okay. |
| 17:12.13 | levi | Smalltalk is simpler than C. |
| 17:12.29 | sjansen | Smalltalk doesn't count 'cause no one uses it. |
| 17:12.44 | tensai | http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0131888676 |
| 17:12.50 | levi | Well, you're leaving out some rather important people who use it when you say 'no one uses it'. |
| 17:12.59 | tensai | I saw that book at B&N the other day and almost fell over laughing in the aisle |
| 17:13.16 | levi | I mean, the companies that sell commercial implementations of Scheme and Smalltalk wouldn't be able to survive if people weren't using it. |
| 17:13.39 | levi | s/it/them |
| 17:13.52 | levi | Nor would they be around if they were 'toy' languages. |
| 17:14.01 | sjansen | levi: tensai has a good point, let's just lay aside our differences and agree to hate Java |
| 17:14.43 | levi | Although I'm not terribly fond of it, Java has some way cool technology in it. |
| 17:15.22 | tensai | sjansen: but I like Java. I just wouldn't drop a $20 proclaiming my love for it |
| 17:16.51 | levi | Java's Hotspot compiler is extremely nifty. |
| 17:18.55 | levi | sjansen: Forth is extremely simple, too. |
| 17:19.25 | levi | sjansen: And there's a Forth system in every OpenFirmware chip. |
| 17:19.47 | sjansen | C rules!!! |
| 17:20.02 | levi | You only thing C is simple because you're used to it, and it meshes well with Unix. |
| 17:20.13 | levi | And you have C++ to compare it against. |
| 17:21.05 | levi | Well, I don't expect a lot of love for my anti-C stance on a very unix-friendly channel such as this. But I went and wrote a paper about my stance. |
| 17:25.02 | jsmith | levi: So what your paper is saying is that C is type-safe and doesn't natively support polymorphism? |
| 17:25.10 | jsmith | s/C is/C isn't/ |
| 17:25.26 | sjansen | And I respect that. As I my counter argument, I submit: "C is cool. If you don't like C you must be a stinky head. So there, neener, neener, neener." |
| 17:25.54 | RyanE | s/stinky/doody/ |
| 17:26.17 | jsmith | Couldn't that just be summed up by saying "C is not a high-level programming language, end of story?!?" |
| 17:26.46 | levi | jsmith: It's not type-safe, has no bounds checking, doesn't support polymorphism, doesn't have proper concurrency support in the language, etc. |
| 17:27.12 | levi | jsmith: Yes, it could, but 'high-level' is rather vague. |
| 17:27.14 | jsmith | levi: All very valid. |
| 17:27.39 | jsmith | levi: But, I don't think there's a C programmer around that doesn't realize those limitations. |
| 17:28.03 | levi | jsmith: Yes, but do they realize why those are important? |
| 17:28.15 | jsmith | levi: I would *sure* hope so... |
| 17:28.29 | levi | jsmith: I think your hope is unfounded in a large number of cases. |
| 17:28.32 | jsmith | levi: Any C programmer that doesn't realize that C has no bounds checking is an idiot. |
| 17:28.49 | levi | Yes, but they probably think bounds checking is for wussies. |
| 17:28.57 | graphyx | jsmith: That is for sure.. |
| 17:29.21 | jlp_work | Jayce^: where in MT are you heading this summer? |
| 17:29.28 | sjansen | levi: Not quite. My personal feeling is that C isn't for idiots or lazy people. |
| 17:29.47 | levi | sjansen: So, it's not for you, then? |
| 17:29.48 | jsmith | levi: I doubt it. Any competent programmer should know the strengths and weaknesses of the particular language they're using. If not, they shouldn't be a programmer. |
| 17:30.29 | sjansen | levi: There's a reason my current project is being done in Ruby. |
| 17:30.40 | levi | jsmith: There is a great variety of competency within the realm of my intended audience. |
| 17:31.04 | levi | jsmith: And one of the points I make is that even smart, competent programmers make mistakes. |
| 17:31.21 | graphyx | levi: HERETIC!!! |
| 17:31.28 | graphyx | stone him. He admited to making mistakes. |
| 17:31.37 | graphyx | s/admited/admitted/ |
| 17:31.39 | graphyx | ;) |
| 17:31.45 | levi | Let he who is without mistakes cast the first stone... |
| 17:31.47 | sjansen | Yes, but the mistakes made by smart, competent programmers are more often a result of abstractions hiding information. |
| 17:31.54 | sjansen | C can't hide much from you. |
| 17:32.07 | graphyx | sjansen: You like perl as well, no? |
| 17:32.35 | sjansen | The truth? I like it more than C++, but consider them both to be about as complex. |
| 17:32.36 | levi | sjansen: So, all the buffer overflow exploits that appear on the security advisory lists are due to either incompetent programmers or abstractions hiding information? |
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| 17:32.58 | hans | tensai: only occasionally |
| 17:33.01 | levi | Proper use of abstractions would eliminate those kinds of errors. |
| 17:33.06 | sjansen | incompetent programmers |
| 17:33.38 | levi | sjansen: So, do you think those programmers consider themselves competent? |
| 17:33.49 | sjansen | You'd be surprised how many C progammers I've met that seemed to think strcpy magically knew how to stay inside the available buffer. |
| 17:34.10 | graphyx | That's funny... |
| 17:34.16 | tensai | sjansen: no, I don't think I would be surprised |
| 17:36.27 | levi | Anyway, there are languages that let you program at the C level of abstraction and provide a much greater degree of type safety and bounds checking, etc. |
| 17:36.38 | sjansen | I could consider myself Santa Claus and it wouldn't be true. And it wouldn't be the fault of Christmas. |
| 17:38.14 | sjansen | levi is anti-Christmas! |
| 17:38.31 | sjansen | You can't spell Christmas without the C. |
| 17:38.49 | tensai | sjansen: I'm against any holiday where you visit my house in the middle of the night |
| 17:43.11 | RyanE | tensai: I think we can all agree that we don't want sjansen coming down the chimney, but what does that have to do with Christmas? |
| 17:43.32 | tensai | RyanE: "<sjansen> I could consider myself Santa Claus" |
| 17:43.56 | tensai | RyanE: I'm hoping beyond all hope that that never happens |
| 17:44.03 | sjansen | tensai: "<sjansen> I could consider myself Santa Claus and it wouldn't be true." |
| 17:44.50 | RyanE | tensai: yeah, forgot about that. Mr. Short-Term-Memory strikes again. |
| 17:46.17 | tensai | sjansen: "<sjansen> I'm a poopy pants" |
| 17:46.51 | pjw | Very few programming languages that people choose to program in because they like them are type safe. Type safe languages are chosen by pointy-haired bosses because they read about them in ComputerWorld. |
| 17:47.23 | sjansen | tensai: "<tensai> sjansen is my hero, I wish I were as cool as him." |
| 17:48.01 | Jayce^ | jlp_work, Benchmark wilderness (Scapegoat & Bob Marshall) |
| 17:48.29 | levi | pjw: Where do you get that assertion from? |
| 17:48.57 | levi | And what has it got to do with building reliable software? |
| 17:48.57 | pjw | personal observation |
| 17:49.32 | pjw | maybe nothing. |
| 17:51.33 | levi | If the set of 'programming languages that people choose to program in because they like them' doesn't contain many type-safe languages, then that probably ought to change. Either by making people aware of nice type-safe langauges, or developing ones that people will like. But I don't think that's really the case. |
| 17:52.21 | levi | type-safe doesn't necessarily mean statically-typed, though type-safety can provide more benefits (at some cost, of course) with static types. |
| 17:53.17 | tensai | levi: I must be missing what type-safe is then. I was thinking static typing. |
| 17:54.21 | levi | It means you can't treat a value of one type as a value of another type. Type-safe dynamically-typed languages perform the type-safety checks at run time. |
| 17:54.47 | pjw | I was probably mis-casting "type-safe" as well. You're right, levi, that if type-safe means "type-checked whether static or dynamic. |
| 17:55.04 | levi | And C is statically typed, but not type-safe. |
| 17:55.20 | levi | Which seems remarkably pointless to me. |
| 17:55.31 | tensai | levi: can you give me an example? |
| 17:55.39 | tensai | I'm still not seeing the distinction |
| 17:55.45 | pjw | char y; |
| 17:55.48 | pjw | y++; |
| 17:55.50 | levi | tensai: Obviously you haven't looked at my paper. :) |
| 17:56.30 | tensai | levi: nope, not yet |
| 17:59.54 | levi | jsmith: I think the discussion here illustrates that there's some point to describing things the way I did in my paper. |
| 18:03.16 | jlp_work | Jayce^: nice area. summers in "the Bob" are pleasant. |
| 18:04.11 | jsmith | levi: Sure, I'm not saying that there isn't a point -- I'm just arguing that any professional C programmer should already know that, and if he doesn't, I'd fire him. |
| 18:04.12 | Jayce^ | jlp_work, nice to meet somebody familiar with the bob :) |
| 18:04.18 | jsmith | levi: (or her) |
| 18:04.24 | Jayce^ | jlp_work, my family has a cabin on the benchmark road |
| 18:05.14 | jlp_work | Jayce^: I grew up in MT... lived there 12 years. then I moved to utah and my parents moved to delaware. I don't get back up there often any more |
| 18:05.48 | jlp_work | Jayce^: if you ever go through bozeman, though, there's a great sandwich shop called the pickle barrel right near the MSU campus |
| 18:06.12 | Jayce^ | used to drive through there when we lived in WA, but not really any more |
| 18:06.15 | pjw | bob marshall wilderness? |
| 18:06.16 | jlp_work | Jayce^: and in great falls there's a little place called "ford's drive in" that has awesome cinnamon cokes |
| 18:06.42 | Jayce^ | hrm, do go that way at times |
| 18:06.46 | jlp_work | pjw: hi, phil... long time no chat |
| 18:06.50 | Jayce^ | you ever stop in Augusta? |
| 18:06.54 | pjw | hey jlp |
| 18:07.17 | jlp_work | Jayce^: ford's is right on west center just off the freeway |
| 18:07.25 | jlp_work | I don't usually stop in augusta, no |
| 18:07.53 | levi | jsmith: Well, some of them most likely don't, and my paper is geared more towards students and higher-level sorts than your hypothetical professional C programmer. |
| 18:08.06 | Jayce^ | benchmark is just west from augusta.. our cabin is 24 miles from there |
| 18:08.36 | jlp_work | Jayce^: cool. I'd love to have a cabin in MT, but I'd probably choose right on flathead lake :-) |
| 18:08.41 | Jayce^ | jlp_work, http://halls.lug-nut.com/gallery/Hall_Family/Cabin_2005/DSC01462.JPG a real cabin |
| 18:08.42 | brac | [Viewing /gallery/Hall_Family/Cabin_2005/DSC01462.JPG at 640 x 480] |
| 18:09.12 | jlp_work | Jayce^: that's sweet |
| 18:09.26 | Jayce^ | jlp_work, our spot is a Forest service lease my grandpa got years ago.. |
| 18:09.38 | Jayce^ | right in the scapegoat |
| 18:10.48 | sjansen | Academics have long been unable to appreciate the beauty of C. Just don't try to get your paper published where real programmers might read it or we'll have to hunt you down. |
| 18:11.02 | levi | jsmith: Someone who's intimately familiar with C and is hired to program specifically in C is obviously going to have little need for my paper. |
| 18:11.28 | Jayce^ | we're right at the base of Crown and Cyanide mountains, right at the crown trailhead |
| 18:11.40 | jlp_work | Jayce^: those shots by the dam are pretty impressive |
| 18:11.42 | jsmith | levi: Even newbies in a second-semester CS class should know that there's no bounds checking... |
| 18:11.49 | Jayce^ | jlp_work, Gibson dam |
| 18:12.00 | jsmith | levi: (Especially when every program they compile segfaults) |
| 18:12.06 | Jayce^ | I've never seen it as full as it was last year |
| 18:12.14 | levi | jsmith: The portion on bounds checking is a rather small portion of the paper. |
| 18:13.30 | Jayce^ | jlp_work, the small falls are 'double falls' about 1/2 mile from the cabin, on Ford Creek (crick) |
| 18:13.45 | levi | jsmith: The point is not to describe things that no one knew about, but to explain why these particular parts of C make it a poor choice for general software development. |
| 18:13.47 | jsmith | levi: I realise that -- I guess I'm trying to gauge your audience here -- if they're experienced enough to understand pthreads, they should know about type safety, bounds checking, and polymorphism. If they don't understand bounds checking, they've probably never grasped polymorphism, or even know what threads are. |
| 18:14.12 | Jayce^ | and the shots up in the mountain are at crown pass (right in the middle of the 'crown') where my dad's and grandpas ashes were spread, hence the two cairns |
| 18:14.29 | jsmith | levi: And I'd counter by saying it's only a poor choice for general software development *IFF* you don't understand those concepts, in which case you shouldn't be using C anyway. |
| 18:15.08 | jlp_work | Jayce^: it's a magnificent area, that's for sure |
| 18:15.16 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 18:15.23 | pjw | I'm sorry I left my crusader's sword and shield at home today. |
| 18:15.34 | jsmith | levi: Anyway, it's just my opinion... I'm not trying to minimize your work, just throw out another opinion. |
| 18:16.42 | levi | jsmith: No, it's still a poor choice, because people make mistakes, and those mistakes can be caught by better languages. See the quote from C. A. R. Hoare. |
| 18:16.43 | Jayce^ | man, is it ever hard to work when facing a 2 week vacation.... |
| 18:18.23 | levi | jsmith: Also see the reference on the development of the Cyclone language, that provides a lot of safety features while keeping as much of the C programming model as possible. |
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| 18:25.29 | goozbach | blargfooblarg |
| 18:32.58 | emcnabb | dang you sjansen |
| 18:33.07 | emcnabb | I'm ready for vacation myself |
| 18:34.36 | goozbach | mrpull_: put it on top of the TV |
| 18:35.06 | goozbach | then change the channel to WE or lifetime or something |
| 18:39.08 | jlp_work | Oxygen |
| 18:40.03 | sjansen | history channel: modern marvels - smart bombs |
| 18:40.47 | tensai | levi: now I get it |
| 18:42.28 | mrpull- | goozbach: that is brutal |
| 18:43.10 | mrpull- | sjansen: how many oprah reruns would it take to make your eyes bleed? |
| 18:43.15 | sjansen | http://thedailywtf.com/forums/53809/ShowPost.aspx |
| 18:43.37 | sjansen | mrpull-: probably one entire episode |
| 18:44.18 | goozbach | mrpull-: or better yet, just take out the battireies |
| 18:44.47 | mrpull- | i'll unplug his laptop while i'm at it. that thing must get at least 3 or 4 minutes of battery life...right? |
| 18:50.57 | sjansen | thedailywtf.com makes me think maybe I could make a living as a programmer after all |
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| 19:02.03 | maquis | sjansen: i was reading that last night |
| 19:02.29 | sjansen | An absolutely amazing piece of work. |
| 19:02.38 | maquis | ummm... yeah..... |
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| 19:10.21 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@166.205.44.36) |
| 19:28.23 | graphyx | about the thedailywtf: I mean I have done c for BYU classes before, but what this guy does makes perl readable in comparison. |
| 19:42.03 | sjansen | no it doesn't, you have to take into consideration that he used surprisingly advanced techniques in an inspirationally stupid way |
| 19:42.25 | sjansen | something as stupid written in perl would be indecipherable |
| 19:42.26 | graphyx | perhaps it is my own lack of experience then. |
| 19:42.33 | graphyx | fair enough. |
| 19:43.26 | sjansen | For starters, the equivalent of using varargs uselessly would be using Acme::Bleach or something in perl. |
| 19:44.33 | graphyx | I read about that in the comments, how he had to pop up the first variable that was actually telling him how many variables there were to pop. |
| 20:02.46 | hans | jsmith: how does the tdm2400p work? |
| 20:04.37 | hans | as in, do you need some sort of adapter thing to plug in the phones/pots? |
| 20:04.47 | hans | and have you had any experience with it? |
| 20:14.01 | jsmith | hans: I haven't got my hands on one yet, but all indications are that it's a rockin' card. |
| 20:14.32 | jsmith | hans: You need an amphenol breakout box or patch panel to go from the amphenol connector on the card to individual phone lines. |
| 20:16.23 | tensai | jsmith: amphenol, that's the 25 pair connector? |
| 20:22.21 | tensai | user: "I'm trying to click on this link but it's not working". me: "that's not a link, it's just text". user: "oh" |
| 20:23.13 | mrpull- | anybody ever seen http://www.divagater.com/npc/ before? |
| 20:23.14 | brac | [NPC - Nagios Plugin for Cacti] |
| 20:23.17 | mrpull- | it looks pretty dope. |
| 20:24.26 | tensai | mrpull-: I've got a plugin that goes the other way, generating nagios pages based on cacti data. that looks pretty cool. |
| 20:24.49 | mrpull- | nagios is not too pretty |
| 20:26.13 | tensai | mrpull-: do you mean UI, code or design? |
| 20:26.29 | mrpull- | tensai: just UI. I cant comment on the others. |
| 20:27.09 | *** join/#utah RyanE (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 20:27.23 | mrpull- | I understand that once nagios 2.0 stablizes, they are going to work on the GUI w/ 3.0 |
| 20:27.39 | mrpull- | i hope that is soon. nagios is a great (but ugly) product. |
| 20:28.17 | jsmith | tensai: Bingo! |
| 20:28.30 | tensai | mrpull-: you're right, but UI prettiness is down toward the bottom of my list of "must-haves" |
| 20:28.42 | jsmith | mrpull-: Nagios doesn't scale well |
| 20:28.50 | tensai | nagios 2.0 has been taking forever. for me, I'm holding my breath waiting for jsmith's program. |
| 20:28.59 | jsmith | tensai: So am I! |
| 20:29.07 | mrpull- | jsmith: is it getting any better scaling wise? i've only used it in small setups. |
| 20:29.17 | tensai | cacti doesn't scale that well either |
| 20:29.17 | graphyx | jsmith: You putting together a naqios plugin or something? |
| 20:29.22 | Tene | jsmith: what parts don't scale well? |
| 20:29.40 | mrpull- | tensai: when do you see cacti start breaking down? |
| 20:29.51 | jsmith | mrpull-: No, it's not. |
| 20:29.51 | graphyx | Tene: The lack of the database is the issue. |
| 20:29.57 | jsmith | graphyx: No. |
| 20:30.05 | tensai | mrpull-: 300 devices |
| 20:30.14 | mrpull- | tensai: how many interfaces? |
| 20:30.20 | jsmith | graphyx: I'm rewriting a Nagios-like program to be database driven from the beginning, among other things. |
| 20:30.28 | graphyx | ahh... |
| 20:30.39 | jsmith | Tene: For one thing, it rereads and reparses the configs for every hit to the gui -- yuck! |
| 20:30.53 | tensai | mrpull-: 3 or 4 of them have 1500, the rest are ~5 polls each |
| 20:31.27 | Tene | jsmith: not that this in any way invalidates your point, but just out of curiousity, what are you looking at the gui for? |
| 20:31.34 | mrpull- | tensai: do you use the cactid or just the php collector? |
| 20:32.32 | jsmith | Tene: Whenever you want to disable notifications, schedule downtime, look at the alert history, etc. |
| 20:32.42 | Tene | ahh, right |
| 20:32.46 | tensai | mrpull-: cactid. php took 30 minutes to complete a run. cactid takes 3-4 |
| 20:33.04 | mrpull- | tensai: ouch! |
| 20:33.19 | tensai | mrpull-: no kidding |
| 20:35.36 | tensai | mrpull-: actually, we had to split it up across three separate servers because we have about 700 devices total |
| 20:35.56 | tensai | (shooting from the hip on the numbers) |
| 20:36.08 | tensai | doing them all on one cacti was impossible |
| 20:36.38 | mrpull- | tensai: did you identify a specific bottleneck or did you determine it was several factors? |
| 20:37.34 | tensai | mrpull-: CPU time. granted this isn't the beefiest box in the world. |
| 20:38.05 | tensai | too many parallel tasks and the CPU just gave out. too few and the run wouldn't complete soon enough. |
| 20:40.03 | mrpull- | tensai: i suppose it is a big task to collect all that info |
| 20:40.30 | tensai | mrpull-: plus the database is on the same box |
| 20:41.03 | tensai | and the builtin php snmp library only supports v1 while a big set of our devices only support v2c, so it has to fork snmpget for each of them |
| 20:41.06 | mrpull- | tensai: were the disks up to snuff? i've heard that for many disk I/O can be the problem. |
| 20:41.52 | mrpull- | tensai: but cactid solved the v2c problem, right? |
| 20:42.12 | tensai | mrpull-: I think they're 7200 RPM IDE drives. not 100% sure what the controller is |
| 20:42.25 | tensai | mrpull-: that's a good point. I don't think I ever looked to see. |
| 20:42.41 | *** part/#utah graphyx (n=mike@67.50.46.118) |
| 20:43.07 | tensai | mrpull-: I also rewrote one of our 3rd party polling scripts from perl to php to keep the interpreter load time down. that helped some. |
| 20:44.48 | tensai | mrpull-: by golly, I think you're right. cactid can use v2c natively through libsnmp |
| 20:47.25 | tensai | jsmith: is there any actual code I could hack on over the holiday? |
| 21:00.21 | *** join/#utah lars-ut (n=me@70.103.228.158) |
| 21:02.11 | lars-ut | Any ideas where I can find a 2GB ipod before Sunday? |
| 21:05.00 | RyanE | lars-ut: buy a 4GB ipod and cut it in half? :) |
| 21:05.34 | *** join/#utah QBFreak (n=QBFreak@rrcs-24-199-129-138.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 21:06.52 | QBFreak | I've got a set of shell scripts I'm working on to automate duplicating data CD and DVDs, one thing that's getting me is I can't figure out how to determine if a blank disc is CD or DVD |
| 21:07.05 | tensai | lars-ut: is this one of those zany schemes where you broke your wife's ipod and have to replace it with an exact copy before she finds out you used it to sneak out to a night club with your hill-billy cousin Jethro? |
| 21:07.40 | QBFreak | I would greatly appreciate any suggestions on what to try or where to look |
| 21:07.44 | *** join/#utah graphyx (n=mike@67.50.46.118) |
| 21:09.35 | lars-ut | this is for my boss |
| 21:09.44 | lars-ut | he wants to get it for his wife |
| 21:10.00 | lars-ut | I foolishly agreed to help |
| 21:10.17 | lars-ut | no ideas? |
| 21:10.17 | tensai | QBFreak: check out cdrecord -atip |
| 21:10.21 | levi | Looked at overnighting it from an online store? |
| 21:10.29 | lars-ut | which one? |
| 21:10.48 | lars-ut | I trust newegg - they're out of stock |
| 21:11.04 | levi | Tried Apple? |
| 21:11.34 | hatchmt | Order from apple before midnight tonight and it'll get there before the 24th |
| 21:11.40 | hatchmt | http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/2005_holiday_shipping_ipodnano.html |
| 21:11.41 | brac | [Apple Store - Holiday Delivery] |
| 21:11.49 | lars-ut | hatchmt: thanks |
| 21:12.56 | QBFreak | tensai: thank you! that's exactly what I needed |
| 21:21.11 | Tene | anyone here know much about video processing? |
| 21:21.40 | levi | tensai: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=fz1N2ASAvW&isbn=0714845310&itm=1 |
| 21:21.42 | brac | [Barnes & Noble.com - The Silver Spoon - Phaidon Press - Hardcover] |
| 21:22.39 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:24.05 | tensai | levi: it's on order at my library. I'm first in queue |
| 21:24.11 | tensai | thanks :) |
| 21:24.13 | levi | tensai: Cool. :) |
| 21:25.49 | tensai | ~lart barnes and noble for using popups |
| 21:26.11 | levi | tensai: My ex-chef friend recommended it to me. |
| 21:26.49 | QBFreak | hmm, remind me to be nice around here, the lart I'm used to is a lot less...final :) |
| 21:30.14 | graphyx | But the punishment fit the crime this time. |
| 21:30.50 | QBFreak | oh yes |
| 21:34.36 | sjansen | ~lart QBFreak for kicks |
| 21:34.45 | QBFreak | eep |
| 21:35.34 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@12-208-14-28.client.insightBB.com) |
| 21:43.04 | *** join/#utah pjw_ (n=pjw@panther.cs.byu.edu) |
| 21:53.16 | levi | http://calculist.blogspot.com/2005/12/12-weeks-with-geeks.html |
| 21:53.17 | brac | [The Little Calculist: 12 Weeks With Geeks] |
| 22:09.43 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@209-193-10-163-cdsl-rb1.nwc.acsalaska.net) |
| 22:11.08 | *** join/#utah colera (n=colera@monsters.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:13.21 | tensai | just discovered one of my mail servers has 1.2 million messages in its queue. that seems excessive. |
| 22:14.07 | jsmith | Uh, yeah... that's bad. What, you don't have Nagios monitoring the size of your mail queues yet? |
| 22:23.14 | harleypig | Does anyone know when the next liquidation sale is, and where? |
| 22:23.28 | harleypig | Or is there a web site that has that info. |
| 22:23.34 | jsmith | liquidation sale? |
| 22:23.38 | harleypig | hmmm ... liquidation sales isn't what I mean. |
| 22:23.52 | jsmith | surplus sale? |
| 22:23.56 | jsmith | At some university? |
| 22:23.57 | harleypig | when a business or school wants to get rid of old ... |
| 22:23.59 | harleypig | that's it. |
| 22:24.06 | jsmith | Which surplus sale? |
| 22:24.10 | harleypig | I've got molasses for brains today. |
| 22:24.12 | harleypig | jsmith: any. |
| 22:24.22 | harleypig | err ... any that I can drive to. |
| 22:24.28 | emcnabb | BYU has a mailing list you can get on, but I don't think they'll have one until January |
| 22:24.41 | emcnabb | (the mailing list that announces surplus sales) |
| 22:25.54 | harleypig | emcnabb: Do you have a subscription email for it? |
| 22:28.11 | harleypig | nm ... having the right word to search on google helps. |
| 22:28.18 | harleypig | I found surplus@byu.edu |
| 22:29.25 | emcnabb | cool |
| 22:30.51 | jsmith | harleypig: You're probably not wanting to drive to Logan, but here's the USU one (where I used to work) http://www.usu.edu/surplus/index.html |
| 22:30.52 | brac | [Surplus Sales Homepage] |
| 22:31.28 | jsmith | And the one for the U http://www.utah.edu/surplus/ |
| 22:31.29 | brac | [Surplus] |
| 22:31.41 | harleypig | thanks. |
| 22:31.54 | harleypig | anyone hear of, or used http://publicsurplus.com |
| 22:32.07 | jsmith | http://www.publicsurplus.com/ut/uvsc The one for UVSC |
| 22:32.57 | jsmith | Surplus for the State of Utah (in Draper) http://fleet.utah.gov/services/surplus/default.htm |
| 22:32.58 | brac | [Division of Fleet and Surplus Services] |
| 22:33.44 | harleypig | jsmith: Do you have these up on a website, or is there a website with these links? |
| 22:35.16 | tensai | jsmith: this is a new server and I wasn't involved in the original setup. but apparently I get to participate in the cleanup. |
| 22:35.29 | tensai | lucky me, it turns out it was an open relay due to inbound NAT |
| 22:37.41 | levi | Hmm, you could get your very own printing press from the UVSC surplus place. |
| 22:38.18 | levi | Or an engine and transaxle from a Saturn. |
| 22:41.37 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=decripto@207.88.76.81.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:41.46 | RyanE | harleypig: publicsurplus.com has a lot of Alpine School District stuff. We've bought from them a lot of times. |
| 22:42.01 | RyanE | but not computer stuff. |
| 22:44.09 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@166.70.183.108) |
| 22:44.16 | decriptor | I'm trying to find a nice app to add/remove/edit users in an ldap directory that is solely designed for a company email/contact directory listing |
| 22:44.25 | decriptor | is there a good one. perferalbly a web based one |
| 22:45.25 | levi | Sweet, a fire truck! |
| 22:46.23 | jsmith | decriptor: Maybe phpldapadmin? |
| 22:46.35 | jsmith | harleypig: No, I pulled them all from Google -- you should try it sometime... |
| 22:48.28 | RyanE | levi: one of the sites had a 15' wide mower once. I was tempted. Only a few passes would take care of the lawn. |
| 22:48.49 | RyanE | it was from BYU grounds dept. |
| 22:48.51 | levi | RyanE: Turning it would be interesting. |
| 22:49.17 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=chris@158.91.201.220) |
| 22:49.31 | levi | RyanE: But a '60s firetruck! For only $6000! Imagine the looks you'd get, driving that around... ;) |
| 22:49.32 | Hhhhh | holy crap, SUSE 10.0 is soooo prrrrtyy |
| 22:49.35 | RyanE | the side mowers are retractible (they rotate up to vertical) |
| 22:49.46 | RyanE | levi: yeah, you could start your own fire department. |
| 22:50.30 | jsmith | levi: You could spray water on all the stupid C programmers... |
| 22:50.38 | tensai | decriptor: phpldapadmin is the bomb |
| 22:51.39 | pmcnabb | Hhhhh: it looks...... like KDE. |
| 22:52.28 | tensai | plus, using phpldapadmin is buying local. our very own uugDave started it. |
| 22:52.55 | decriptor | sweet I'll have to try it |
| 22:53.10 | decriptor | suse 10 through yast can be updated to kde 3.5 |
| 22:53.13 | tensai | it kicks the crap out of everything else I've tried |
| 22:53.30 | decriptor | that's what I was hoping to hear |
| 22:53.42 | jsmith | pjw_: Is delicious working again? |
| 22:53.45 | decriptor | there seems to be a lot of crappy apps out their for ldap |
| 22:53.51 | spr | uugDave recently passed maintainership of phpldapadmin off to someone else, last I heard. |
| 22:53.59 | tensai | interesting tidbit, originally it was called davedap |
| 22:54.20 | pjw_ | jsmith: yes, it was a little slow, but came back |
| 22:54.53 | tensai | spr: I believe that's correct. he's still a team member on sf.net though. |
| 22:57.07 | spr | Anyone else here ever watch Jim Henson's Storyteller series? |
| 22:59.34 | Hhhhh | pmcnabb: that's the cool thing, KDE 3.5 is soooo prrrty |
| 23:00.04 | Hhhhh | I just wish they had the Composite working properly |
| 23:00.23 | pmcnabb | Hhhhh, so it's really that KDE 3.5 is what's pretty.. not anything novell did with SuSE... ; ) |
| 23:01.35 | Hhhhh | nope, SUSE is a very nice distro in general |
| 23:02.33 | Hhhhh | yast is a very nice tool indeed |
| 23:04.00 | sjansen | I though so! He's running an outrageous fever. Hhhhh is obviously delusional. |
| 23:04.41 | pmcnabb | sjansen: perhaps this "Hhhhh" is really an irc bot from novell? |
| 23:06.56 | sjansen | So far the nicest thing I can say about SUSE 10 is that they did much less damage to Gnome this time. |
| 23:08.48 | RyanE | sjansen: isn't Gnome damaged enough to begin with? |
| 23:09.13 | sjansen | KDE is for crack smokers and screen lickers. |
| 23:09.24 | Hhhhh | pmcnabb: I am not, and I happen to know your two brothers IRL |
| 23:09.30 | Hhhhh | but I did work for Novell though |
| 23:09.58 | Hhhhh | so far, I think the best linux distros for newbies coming from Windows are Ubuntu, SUSE and Fedora |
| 23:10.16 | Hhhhh | sjansen: I love to lick my screen |
| 23:10.46 | jsmith | sjansen: And Linus... but I digress... |
| 23:11.02 | Hhhhh | yup, the King has spoken...KDE it is |
| 23:11.06 | Hhhhh | ;) |
| 23:11.34 | sjansen | tensai: Thank you. I rest my case. |
| 23:11.52 | jlp_work | those candy window managers just suck up cycles and get in your face |
| 23:12.10 | Hhhhh | not if you have a decent machine...HA!!!!! |
| 23:12.24 | tensai | jlp_work: suck up cycles, I'll agree with. on my laptop I use xfce. |
| 23:13.37 | jlp_work | -lart Hhhhh |
| 23:14.35 | sjansen | I've got plenty of spare cycles, and lots of pixels. I've got plenty of room for KDE crack, but Gnome is just so much more elegant. |
| 23:15.34 | sjansen | Crystal (think drugs) == major KDE theme |
| 23:15.42 | sjansen | Clean Look == major Gnome theme |
| 23:23.11 | *** join/#utah ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 23:23.57 | ScytheBlade1 | Hmm |
| 23:23.59 | ScytheBlade1 | What's my hostmask set to? |
| 23:24.33 | mheath | about/pxe/ScytheBlade1 ? |
| 23:24.39 | mheath | Argh! |
| 23:24.46 | ScytheBlade1 | Whoo, I win |
| 23:25.31 | mheath | My ID Card =\ |
| 23:25.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh my |
| 23:25.56 | mheath | I have another ID card that, functionally, gives me more priveleges and identifies me to more people |
| 23:26.14 | mheath | But I'm leaving for this training in just a few days, and I'm theoretically supposed to have the one I just lost with me =\ |
| 23:32.13 | RyanE | sjansen: I think my computer desktop should mirror my actual desktop, therefore, it should be messy. |
| 23:32.28 | RyanE | 'clean look' doesn't fly in my office. |
| 23:33.31 | mheath | argh, this sucks. |
| 23:35.53 | decriptor | I'm not sure about the login for phpldapadmin I think I have the right dn and password but it won't log me in |
| 23:35.53 | decriptor | ? |
| 23:36.06 | decriptor | what would be a typical login |
| 23:37.00 | jsmith | I would think that would depend on your LDAP setup, but that's just me... |
| 23:37.10 | tensai | cn=administrator,dc=decriptor,dc=com |
| 23:37.35 | tensai | it could be anything though |
| 23:37.44 | decriptor | I'm using something like that that looks the same other than the fields |
| 23:37.49 | decriptor | I'm somewhat new to ldap |
| 23:37.53 | decriptor | still learning it |
| 23:38.02 | decriptor | warning::head loss :) |
| 23:38.10 | decriptor | head -> hair |
| 23:38.53 | decriptor | I'm using cn=admin,dc=example,dc=com and the ssha for the password. I think I changed it in the config.php file |
| 23:38.57 | tensai | ldap is a tricky beast. took me a long time and a large sum of money to get my head around it |
| 23:39.01 | decriptor | any common mistakes with this |
| 23:39.17 | decriptor | I'm poor no books just internet |
| 23:40.15 | tensai | not saying it can't be done, just giving you fair warning |
| 23:40.19 | decriptor | my problem here is that I can't tell if its phpldapadmin stuff or if its ldap stuff |
| 23:40.28 | tensai | what's your ldap server? |
| 23:40.34 | decriptor | openldap |
| 23:41.22 | tensai | check syslog on your server and see if it's rejecting connections, or if it hasn't seen any connections |
| 23:41.42 | tensai | phpldapadmin should also tell you if it has a failure |
| 23:41.53 | decriptor | it does bad username/password |
| 23:43.32 | tensai | I think that means it found your ldap server but it didn't like the dn and/or password |
| 23:43.47 | tensai | how did you initialize your database? |
| 23:44.00 | decriptor | not sure |
| 23:45.05 | tensai | sounds like you didn't then. can you pastebin your slapd.conf, with admin password removed of course? |
| 23:47.03 | decriptor | ok I have the file how do I pastebin it |
| 23:49.36 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@166.216.100.83) |
| 23:57.20 | tensai | paste.lisp.org |
| 23:59.09 | decriptor | http://paste.lisp.org/display/14846 |
