| 00:00.21 | jsmith | sjansen: Yeah, or an inch of snow, or a quarter-inch of rain... |
| 00:04.10 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@64.50.56.200) |
| 00:18.21 | *** part/#utah beandog (n=sdibb@64.50.56.200) |
| 00:23.35 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:25.51 | bonez39 | any ebay gurus? I need some advice..... |
| 00:26.07 | tensai | bonez39: buy low, sell high |
| 00:26.18 | bonez39 | tensai, well, of course...... |
| 00:27.25 | bonez39 | tensai, here's my dilemma....I think it's just a weird juxaposition..but I am bidding on a laminator...the bid price was 15 bucks..I bid $40....I have the high bid currently, but when I log in..I see that..and then underneath my bid line..I see another item..the same item, but I guess from another seller....and it says Current Price $52.00... |
| 00:27.49 | bonez39 | so I am confused..is that the one I have bid on, or is someone else bidding and now has that $52 as the current high bid.... |
| 00:28.02 | bonez39 | damned if I can call ebay.....no telephone number ANYWHERE.. |
| 00:28.17 | bonez39 | I feel like driving out there to Draper and pounding on the door, to ask them my questions....... |
| 00:28.47 | bonez39 | they have a huge building, but I guess they all go there and play with the web site, ... clearly they don't advertise any outside numbers for those with customer support questions |
| 00:29.04 | bonez39 | sigh...I feel better now....;) |
| 00:31.42 | Bradipo | Anyone here ever program with the C API in mysqlclient? |
| 00:32.43 | Bradipo | Never mind, I think I found it. |
| 00:32.56 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@12-208-14-28.client.insightBB.com) |
| 00:37.27 | amcnabb | BDB is retarded. |
| 00:37.34 | amcnabb | So is Openldap. |
| 00:37.43 | amcnabb | Just get the two of them together. |
| 00:38.47 | amcnabb | BDB is saying DB_VERIFY_BAD, but db_recover doesn't fix anything. Do they have another repairing tool? |
| 00:39.58 | amcnabb | sjansen, do you have any recommendation? |
| 00:41.17 | sjansen | amcnabb: nope |
| 00:42.39 | amcnabb | Has anyone tried backend_sql with LDAP? |
| 00:44.07 | sjansen | I hear it's really slow. |
| 00:44.15 | sjansen | Haven't tried it myself. |
| 00:45.47 | amcnabb | OpenLDAP is worse than Suse. :) |
| 00:51.20 | Hhhhh | hey, what's up with SUSE? |
| 00:51.38 | amcnabb | :) |
| 00:51.56 | levi | sjansen has turned his hate towards it, that's what's up with it. ;) |
| 00:52.49 | sjansen | I have long disliked SUSE. Recently I decided to install it on my laptop in an attempt to learn to like it. |
| 00:53.28 | levi | Did you ever succeed in liking Ubuntu? |
| 00:53.53 | Hhhhh | all I can say is, I used SUSE 9.0 and 9.1 last year when doing an internship at Novell, and it was a very ambitious yet unpolished project. I switched to Fedora for over a year, and now I tried SUSE 10 and fell in love with it. |
| 00:54.20 | Hhhhh | very solid, pretty much all issues I'm aware of are fixed |
| 00:54.38 | Hhhhh | very pretty desktop, especially good for newbies to Linux |
| 00:54.49 | levi | We ship SLES on a lot of our clusters, I believe. |
| 00:55.01 | Hhhhh | (or people who doesn't care about tinkering and want something that just works out of the box, like myself) |
| 00:55.17 | Hhhhh | I'm not diminishing the merits of other distros though |
| 00:55.26 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (i=nobody@unaffiliated/xbmodder) |
| 00:55.41 | sjansen | levi: Actually, I quite miss Ubuntu. |
| 00:55.48 | xbmodder_lappy | Are the any good CGI "looking glass" CGI::Proxies? |
| 00:57.46 | sjansen | Hhhhh: Okay, here's an annoying issue I consider major but haven't taken the time to research yet. Why can a normal user unmount hotplugged removeable storage? And don't tell me to edit the /etc/fstab 'cause that's not the right solution. |
| 00:58.14 | xbmodder_lappy | hmm |
| 00:58.26 | xbmodder_lappy | sjansen, what is this device anyway? |
| 00:59.36 | sjansen | s/Why can/Why can't/ |
| 01:00.17 | xbmodder_lappy | oh |
| 01:03.21 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 01:07.26 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 01:07.26 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 01:10.59 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 01:11.35 | Hhhhh | sjansen, I don't know. |
| 01:11.44 | Hhhhh | I've noticed that, and I don't like it |
| 01:11.50 | Hhhhh | FC4 handled it a bit better |
| 01:12.00 | Hhhhh | but I don't care too much about it though |
| 01:12.13 | *** join/#utah stuporglue (n=Stuporgl@monsters.cs.byu.edu) |
| 01:13.06 | stuporglue | I'm setting up the bzflag server for the UUG thing tomorrow night, but can't understand how to use the -mp option. |
| 01:13.16 | stuporglue | I'd like to limit the game to red, blue and rogue players |
| 01:15.13 | Newsome | something like this work? mp ,,0,,0,0 |
| 01:16.14 | stuporglue | Let me log on and see...looks like it though |
| 01:16.21 | *** join/#utah markl_ (i=mark@dsl093-225-127.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:18.44 | stuporglue | Yup. The brackets led me astray. I kept trying {,,0,0,,} and derivations thereof. |
| 01:18.50 | stuporglue | Thank you Newsome |
| 01:19.19 | Newsome | ah, okay. glad to help |
| 01:21.05 | hans | uug is playing bzflag for my birthday? |
| 01:25.52 | maquis | i done it |
| 01:26.51 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 01:27.04 | xbmodder_lappy | bzflag hates my machine |
| 01:27.18 | xbmodder_lappy | will the server be public? |
| 01:27.31 | hans | maquis: done what? finished your finals? |
| 01:27.32 | sjansen | http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/15595.html |
| 01:27.37 | brac | [Black Box Voting Forums: 12-13-05: Devastating hack proven - Leon County dumps Diebold] |
| 01:28.54 | maquis | hans: yup |
| 01:31.31 | emcnabb | why do I always get the strangest emails? |
| 01:31.43 | emcnabb | [WARNING: BEGIN CRAP FLOOD] |
| 01:31.45 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.45 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.45 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.45 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.45 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.46 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.48 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.50 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.52 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.56 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:31.58 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:32.00 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:32.02 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:32.04 | emcnabb | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:32.31 | stuporglue | One more question on the bzfs, how do I interpret " +f {good|bad|teamflag-id}[{count}]" |
| 01:32.59 | emcnabb | the e-mail refers to things I say on my website, so I don't think it's automated spam |
| 01:33.13 | emcnabb | (that is, that I got married recently) |
| 01:33.21 | stuporglue | I want to put 2 of every good flag. I'm trying "+f{good}{2}", but no luck |
| 01:33.34 | maquis | emcnabb: weird |
| 01:33.54 | emcnabb | I get several strange messages like this every year |
| 01:34.09 | stuporglue | nevermind, I got it |
| 01:40.36 | maquis | emcnabb: maybe because you have a common last name? |
| 01:40.47 | maquis | (well... common, yet not overly common) |
| 01:45.13 | emcnabb | McNabb really isn't a common last name |
| 01:45.22 | emcnabb | only in Idaho and Scotland |
| 01:45.59 | maquis | relatively common compared to mine? |
| 01:48.56 | emcnabb | yours is much less common |
| 01:49.13 | emcnabb | but compared to the general population, mine is rather uncommon |
| 01:54.16 | emcnabb | dinner |
| 01:54.19 | emcnabb | time |
| 01:55.03 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@12-208-14-28.client.insightBB.com) |
| 01:59.17 | maquis | wow.. one leaves, and another shows up |
| 02:00.49 | tensai | maquis: from now on your name will be Ma Quis |
| 02:01.48 | pmcnabb | maquis: ? |
| 02:02.21 | maquis | tensai: huh? |
| 02:02.31 | maquis | pmcnabb: emcnabb left right before you joined |
| 02:02.38 | pmcnabb | ahh |
| 02:03.07 | maquis | mrpull-: good luck |
| 02:03.58 | mrpull | maquis: good luck to you as well |
| 02:04.16 | mrpull | my experience is fixing a botched BSD install is easier than fixing a botched tivo install :) |
| 02:04.20 | tensai | maquis: you're our chatroom mom, hence Ma Quis |
| 02:04.32 | maquis | tensai: ah |
| 02:04.48 | maquis | mrpull: i suppose that's good news for me and bad news for you :) |
| 02:05.00 | mrpull | maybe so |
| 02:05.24 | tensai | I tried installing OpenBSD once but didn't make it all the way |
| 02:05.33 | mrpull | the worst part would be deleting the kids shows |
| 02:12.14 | *** join/#utah wps_ (n=wade@65.73.113.199) |
| 02:14.36 | maquis | well... it's going |
| 02:15.56 | mrpull | the bsd partitioning/slicing is a little goofy, but it is easy after that |
| 02:16.19 | maquis | yeah |
| 02:16.43 | maquis | apparently the handbook online is a bit out of date, i think... because my installation never asked to configure the kernel... |
| 02:16.54 | maquis | but the test one i did on my test box didn't either... |
| 02:16.56 | maquis | and it worked out fine |
| 02:17.58 | tensai | maquis: is my server slow right now? |
| 02:18.20 | maquis | tensai: not too bad... it's a touch behind my typing speed |
| 02:18.43 | maquis | not overly noticeable |
| 02:49.08 | maquis | any bsd-ers around? |
| 02:50.12 | maquis | i seem to be able to get an |
| 02:50.15 | maquis | IP and everything |
| 02:50.24 | maquis | but when i try to get to the ip sites, it's not getting anything |
| 02:53.19 | maquis | now i just have to figure out which one i need for installation |
| 02:53.25 | maquis | 3 looks like it might be my lucky number |
| 02:58.01 | maquis | or... maybe 3 isn't the lucky number |
| 02:58.03 | maquis | anyone? |
| 02:58.21 | maquis | i can't figure out how to change the requested ftp site without restarting the installation |
| 03:05.15 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@207.212.89.70) |
| 03:08.53 | maquis | why???? |
| 03:21.22 | goozbach | WOOT! got xen installed on my laptop |
| 03:22.30 | mrpull | goozbach: niiice. have they made managing vm's any more user friendly? |
| 03:26.32 | maquis | any bsd-ers around? please???? |
| 03:40.24 | xbmodder_lappy | goozbach, W00T! wasn't brad talking about that? |
| 03:40.30 | xbmodder_lappy | or was the PPDD |
| 03:45.06 | maquis | w00t! |
| 03:45.16 | maquis | i figured out how to get it to download! |
| 04:11.47 | mrpull | poop. i got greedy and tried to install usb2.0 drivers... now workie |
| 04:11.53 | mrpull | now no workie |
| 04:12.08 | mrpull | and I cut my finger building a serial cable :) |
| 04:17.02 | maquis | mrpull: how do you build a serial cable? |
| 04:27.51 | mrpull | cut up some existing cables and tape them together |
| 04:28.10 | maquis | cool |
| 04:28.24 | maquis | methinks she might've set a new record for install to breakage time |
| 04:29.21 | maquis | pkg_add -r cvsup-without-gui complains that it's already installled |
| 04:29.41 | maquis | pkg_delete cvsup-without-gui complains that the package isn't installed |
| 04:32.30 | tensai | ~maquis freebsd |
| 04:32.31 | ibot | ACTION breaks freebsd just by looking in freebsd's direction |
| 04:36.15 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 04:43.28 | tensai | levi: homework done? |
| 04:43.32 | xbmodder_lappy | hey |
| 04:43.39 | levi | tensai: Yeah, classes are over. |
| 04:43.52 | levi | tensai: I've been trying to fix my dishwasher. Turns out it wasn't broken, really. |
| 04:44.09 | emcnabb | Quote of the day: "If you have never configured sendmail you are not a sys admin. If you have configured twice you are an idiot." |
| 04:44.15 | xbmodder_lappy | cool. |
| 04:44.21 | xbmodder_lappy | emcnabb, hehe |
| 04:44.51 | levi | There was a clear, thin, plastic cutting board that had attached itself to the wall of the dishwasher. Unfortunately, it was the same wall that had the water inlet. |
| 04:45.33 | xbmodder_lappy | mheath, you here? |
| 04:45.34 | levi | And the part of the inlet outside of the dishwasher is set up to overflow if it can't get water into the machine fast enough. |
| 04:46.02 | levi | Thus, it would leak a bunch of water as the washer filled, and it leaked through the floor and into the condo downstairs. |
| 04:46.10 | tensai | ouch |
| 04:46.16 | levi | Yeah. |
| 04:46.27 | levi | Fortunately, there doesn't appear to be any structural damage downstairs. |
| 04:46.50 | xbmodder_lappy | good |
| 04:46.58 | levi | So they're going to sand and paint the small water-damaged area and send us the bill. :/ |
| 04:47.05 | xbmodder_lappy | :( |
| 04:47.14 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: Yes, I am here. |
| 04:47.25 | xbmodder_lappy | mheath, what ever happened to jason's sister? |
| 04:47.37 | mheath | O.o What are you talking about? |
| 04:48.12 | xbmodder_lappy | Jason (your friend) had a sister |
| 04:48.24 | xbmodder_lappy | or has... I don't know which one. but I know he had one |
| 04:48.28 | xbmodder_lappy | that was 14 |
| 04:48.36 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: I think you have me confused with someone else. |
| 04:48.40 | mheath | I have no idea what you're talking about |
| 04:48.53 | mheath | maquis: Good luck |
| 04:48.56 | mheath | What are you reinstalling? |
| 04:49.12 | *** part/#utah mrpull (n=misterpu@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 04:50.45 | maquis | mheath: freebsd |
| 04:50.58 | maquis | i think i might've just set a record for shortest install-to-breakage time |
| 04:51.01 | mheath | What the heck? |
| 04:51.22 | mheath | Why did the SLLUG list send me a mail saying my message is "awating moderator approval", when I didn't send a message to the SLLUG list? |
| 04:51.42 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, FreeBSD is pain... |
| 04:51.50 | mheath | It says I sent a message that said "hi, ive a new mail address" |
| 04:51.57 | mheath | I sent no such thing. |
| 04:52.04 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: it was pretty cool on my test box |
| 04:52.06 | maquis | and painless |
| 04:52.18 | maquis | unfortunately, i'm not having the same luck with this install :( |
| 04:52.22 | xbmodder_lappy | Thats pretty odd. |
| 04:52.45 | mheath | I wonder if this is some kind of list abuse |
| 04:53.00 | mheath | Someone sending a message to the list, pretending to be me by playing with his headers, to get me removed or banned... |
| 04:53.51 | mheath | Anyone know who the moderaor of the sllug-members list is? |
| 04:54.05 | tensai | Mecworks knows I'm sure |
| 04:54.23 | mheath | hmm, it really thinks *I* sent it too' |
| 04:54.26 | tensai | sounds more like a virus to me |
| 04:54.54 | tensai | you'd have to see the headers of the original message to know for sure |
| 04:55.01 | mheath | tensai: A virus sent from GMail's web interface? |
| 04:55.25 | tensai | how do you know it actually came from gmail and wasn't forged? |
| 04:55.47 | mheath | tensai: Well, thats what I'm saying |
| 04:55.55 | mheath | SOmeone sent it from somewhere else and played with the headers |
| 04:56.47 | tensai | that's what I'm saying too. you'd have to see the headers to know for sure |
| 04:57.17 | mheath | I think its time for me to start a sign-all-messages policy |
| 04:57.58 | tensai | c'mon, join the club. it's relatively painless, assuming you use a decent mua. |
| 04:59.01 | mheath | 12 days until I leave...hmmm |
| 04:59.14 | mheath | I'm going to end up really disappointed when it's over =D |
| 05:14.15 | xbmodder_lappy | why doesn't the halo movie or Splinter cell come out within the next 9 months? |
| 05:31.36 | *** join/#utah jakea (n=jakea@128.187.162.52) |
| 05:33.49 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 06:03.17 | *** part/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 06:11.37 | RyanE | mheath: the 'ive a new mail address' is *definitely* a virus, and it's likely that someone who has at some point received an email from you (you're in their address book) has a virus. |
| 06:12.09 | RyanE | so the virus used your email from their address book as the fake from, and faked the gmail header. I've been getting those all the time, and also had one 'from me'. |
| 06:30.10 | tensai | viruses now harvest emails from files off your hard drive |
| 06:30.32 | tensai | could also be they saw your email address on a website |
| 06:35.06 | emcnabb | or tensai could have sold it to spammers... |
| 06:35.43 | RyanE | I've gotten a LOT of this newest spam lately. |
| 06:35.57 | RyanE | s/spam/virus/ |
| 06:36.00 | tensai | I've gotten a ton of blowback from this latest one |
| 06:36.04 | emcnabb | same here |
| 06:36.09 | RyanE | as have I. |
| 06:37.02 | tensai | I love the Out of Office replies. "I'm sorry, I couldn't read your message about Paris Hilton Vids!!!. Call me if it's urgent" |
| 06:37.45 | RyanE | tensai: when is it NOT urgent to find out about paris hilton? :) |
| 06:38.05 | maquis | for future reference, despite any claims you happen to hear, you cannot just copy your xorg.conf from your linux install over to your freebsd install on the same box |
| 06:38.44 | RyanE | sure, you *can*. It just won't work, and isn't guaranteed to screw things up. :) |
| 06:38.57 | RyanE | to *not* screw things up. duh. |
| 06:39.32 | emcnabb | there are two students in my class who work on a tiger team for a very large consulting firm |
| 06:39.38 | emcnabb | we were talking about security tools |
| 06:39.43 | RyanE | hate the term 'tiger team' |
| 06:39.51 | emcnabb | so they told me to go to a URL |
| 06:39.56 | RyanE | unless of course, you're referring to 'Sigfried and Roy'. |
| 06:40.04 | emcnabb | I mistyped it and you can guess what popped up |
| 06:40.20 | emcnabb | why do you hate it? |
| 06:40.26 | RyanE | just think it's a dumb term |
| 06:40.32 | RyanE | an *old* dumb term |
| 06:41.09 | RyanE | sorry, I've apparently got 'grouchy ol man' tonight. So what did you mistype, and what came up? |
| 06:41.23 | emcnabb | pr0n |
| 06:41.35 | RyanE | oh, lovely |
| 06:41.40 | emcnabb | RyanE, I know you're a grouchy old man ;-) |
| 06:41.48 | RyanE | so the pr0n had 'parked' on a mistyped url? |
| 06:42.06 | emcnabb | I just left out an extra 'r' or something |
| 06:42.10 | RyanE | odd that the 37 -> 38 birthday has *really* made me feel old. |
| 06:42.21 | emcnabb | I don't know what I mistyped; I closed the window promptly |
| 06:42.27 | RyanE | hehe |
| 06:42.28 | emcnabb | the students found it comical though |
| 06:42.57 | RyanE | I once had an email from me to a coworker displayed to the whole company in a demo of our new email system. |
| 06:43.21 | RyanE | the entire body of the email said, and I quote: "bite me". The guy showing us the system didn't see what it said until the entire company was losing it. |
| 06:43.21 | maquis | RyanE: hopefully it was an ok email? |
| 06:43.31 | RyanE | it was pretty funny. |
| 06:43.32 | maquis | haha |
| 06:43.52 | emcnabb | haha |
| 06:44.18 | RyanE | small company, only about 40 employees at that point. |
| 06:45.44 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 06:56.02 | maquis | xauth: (argv):1 bad display name ".hsd1.ut.comcast.net.:0" in "remove" command |
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| 07:04.53 | *** part/#utah Uncle_Jess1 (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 07:11.11 | maquis | my mouse keeps running off and hiding in the upper-left corner and i can't get it out again :( |
| 07:12.54 | findlay | maquis: tempt it with some cheese |
| 07:27.46 | colera | !seen nytejade |
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| 13:15.37 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 14:20.36 | graphyx | sjansen, emcnabb: HOw do you do the signal interception with perl? |
| 14:36.50 | emcnabb | graphyx, not sure |
| 14:58.54 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@158.91.201.220) |
| 15:01.36 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@158.91.201.220) |
| 15:05.00 | Hhhhh | hello |
| 15:13.33 | graphyx | hi |
| 15:17.04 | mheath | Gah |
| 15:17.17 | mheath | Some people were assaulting a guy's house in Colorado Springs |
| 15:17.37 | mheath | He shoots a single shot out of his window at one of the attackers, the guy ends up dead. |
| 15:18.17 | mheath | He was *DEFENDING HIMSELF* yet theres a lot of Colorado legislators saying "ooh, they misinterpreted that law, it was only supposed to provide protection if someone ENTERED the house." |
| 15:18.39 | mheath | Apparently these Colorado legislators also think its appropriate to send a man to prison for years because he defended himself. |
| 15:23.54 | Hhhhh | hmm |
| 15:24.21 | graphyx | That's nuts. |
| 15:24.35 | Hhhhh | personally, I would have try to shoot them on the leg, because that totally screws them when they have to go to a hospital, but you have a point |
| 15:24.46 | Hhhhh | i'm not so much into defending the rights of criminals |
| 15:25.28 | graphyx | Hhhhh: I was thinking the same thing, but at the same point we don't know if the guys was going for the leg or not, how scared he really was, his experience with a gun. |
| 15:25.47 | Hhhhh | yea |
| 15:25.47 | graphyx | I would just hope he wasn't actively trying to kill him instead of just stopping him. |
| 15:25.52 | Hhhhh | true dat |
| 15:27.43 | Hhhhh | I guess the whole "entering the house" argument is to prevent loonies to kill people they have a grudge against while they just walk in front of your house under the excuse of "he was trying to attack my house!!11" |
| 15:29.15 | graphyx | It may be a moot point though. If the guy was 10 feet from the door with intent to enter in, it shouldn't matter if he is inside already or not. |
| 15:29.33 | graphyx | cause taking someone down inside your house is harder than outside. |
| 15:29.33 | Hhhhh | graphyx, I agree, it's kindof a blurry line |
| 15:29.43 | graphyx | with more potential for harm to yourself. |
| 15:29.58 | graphyx | I mean in the army you don't wait for someone to breach your barracks before you defend yourself... |
| 15:30.01 | graphyx | right mheath? |
| 15:32.26 | tensai | maquis: that means you've got the wrong mouse protocol configured |
| 15:33.38 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 15:36.56 | *** part/#utah bonez41 (n=aint@c-67-166-77-14.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:37.18 | tensai | graphyx: you do if you're French |
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| 15:43.17 | harleypig | http://www.popsci.com/popsci/bown2005/hometech/ae7365e470857010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html |
| 15:43.18 | brac | [Grancrete LLC - Popular Science] |
| 15:43.30 | harleypig | http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69839,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 |
| 15:43.31 | brac | [Wired News: E-Paper's Killer App: Packaging] |
| 15:43.35 | harleypig | wow |
| 15:52.19 | mheath | harleypig: Interestin |
| 15:52.24 | mheath | I've known about such things |
| 15:52.33 | mheath | Didn't know it was cheap enough for those uses |
| 15:54.39 | RyanE | mheath: I assume they're talking about 'when cost comes down'. This speculates that it may happen 'in less than 2 years'. |
| 15:54.59 | RyanE | which is not saying that anyone is already using it for that, but that costs will come down. |
| 15:56.46 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
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| 16:07.52 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce_@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 16:07.52 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 16:16.52 | harleypig | RyanE: Yeah ... I didn't read the whole thing before I posted it. |
| 16:17.03 | harleypig | and it's not really epaper |
| 16:18.18 | RyanE | harleypig: still, anything that drives us in the direction of having cheaper displays is good. :) |
| 16:20.32 | Bradipo | harleypig: I wonder how they intend to power the cereal boxes on the aisles... |
| 16:20.47 | Bradipo | Battery? |
| 16:22.04 | harleypig | yeah, the article says that slim batteries already available will be used. |
| 16:22.12 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 16:22.26 | Bradipo | I read that too, but that still seems like a lot of batteries. |
| 16:22.58 | Bradipo | Think of all the products that exist in the store... |
| 16:23.03 | Bradipo | That's a lot of batteries. |
| 16:23.07 | harleypig | RyanE: I dunno ... walking down grocery aisles full of flashing things will likely cause me to go apesh*t and start destroying things. |
| 16:23.42 | harleypig | Bradipo: In bulk I don't see it as being that expensive, assuming they can reliably mass produce the paper. |
| 16:24.10 | harleypig | the batteries are fairly cheap, less than a couple of dollars |
| 16:24.29 | Bradipo | A couple of dollars for 100 batteries? |
| 16:24.36 | Bradipo | Or a couple for 1 battery? |
| 16:25.18 | Bradipo | I think its a cool idea though. |
| 16:25.41 | Bradipo | Animated cereal is sure to get kids interested. |
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| 16:28.31 | *** join/#utah fo1 (n=steve@cell.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:35.12 | harleypig | Bradipo: per battery |
| 16:35.28 | harleypig | but with bulk that should go way down. |
| 16:38.05 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 16:40.02 | tensai | harleypig: I'm with you. flashing things make me angry. tensai smash! |
| 16:44.11 | mrpull- | anybody ever see or use eventum? |
| 16:45.06 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@166.70.183.108) |
| 16:48.01 | *** join/#utah osynic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 17:00.43 | RyanE | Bradipo: Did you ever play with the Polaroid batteries after all the film was gone? Flat batteries are fun. |
| 17:01.04 | RyanE | and the power draw from these displays is a LOT lower than LCD. Some of the flex displays only require power to change state. |
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| 17:03.45 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
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| 17:07.32 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 17:07.53 | tensai | that's not good |
| 17:07.55 | tensai | # apt-get install libqt3-mt |
| 17:07.55 | tensai | Reading Package Lists... Done |
| 17:07.55 | tensai | Building Dependency Tree... Done |
| 17:07.56 | tensai | Segmentation fault |
| 17:08.48 | levi | Heh. No, not good. |
| 17:09.26 | levi | Maybe you should download another version of apt and install it with dpkg. |
| 17:09.31 | tensai | apt-get update fixed it |
| 17:09.38 | levi | Ahh, good. |
| 17:09.51 | tensai | but now I need to upgrade all of kde to install libqt3. yuck |
| 17:10.22 | levi | Well, at least you don't have to compile it! |
| 17:11.36 | levi | Speaking of which, it's getting to be about time for me to switch back to KDE again. Not that I run much GUI stuff on Linux beyond terminals and emacs these days. |
| 17:12.09 | Hhhhh | KDE 3.5 is purrrty |
| 17:12.42 | levi | I'm sure it is. I like how both KDE and Gnome look these days. |
| 17:16.54 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@64.0.193.147) |
| 17:19.06 | levi | Oh, shoot, I forgot to find out what's up with my server yesterday. It stopped responding sometime yesterday afternoon. |
| 17:23.20 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 17:26.02 | tensai | glad this wasn't on my server. user set up an email notification so an external address got a copy of all his messages, but misspelled the address. every new message generated a bounce back to his mail box which then generated a new bounce, etc, etc. |
| 17:26.47 | tensai | luckily quotas saved the servers before they melted. in all 9000 messages bounced back and forth. |
| 17:27.01 | sjansen | ~praise quotas |
| 17:27.03 | ibot | All hail quotas! |
| 17:32.45 | sjansen | bah, I hope google creates google weather soon 'cause weather.com is stupid |
| 17:34.12 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: have you seen Linus's comments on KDE vs. Gnome? He is passionate about KDE. |
| 17:34.35 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: I don't really care about Linus's opinion on things other than the Linux kernel. |
| 17:34.56 | Uncle_Jesse | lol - he has made some very good points about why KDE is better |
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| 17:35.14 | levi | Better... for him. Which is probably completely true. |
| 17:35.43 | levi | And doesn't make me care any more than his name on the opinions does. |
| 17:36.47 | Jayce^ | sjansen, we all think that about you |
| 17:37.33 | levi | sjansen: If it was spelled exactly like that, I would too. :P |
| 17:39.36 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 17:39.36 | RyanE | and levi could have shirts that say "Vorlath thinks I'm an idiot." |
| 17:40.09 | levi | RyanE: Well, that would certainly make people scratch their heads. |
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| 17:40.50 | levi | findlay: If it's an old beater car, go for it. :) |
| 17:41.08 | levi | Otherwise, I'm generally opposed to putting images on cars. |
| 17:41.31 | findlay | levi: well, you know, why not. After all, Feynmann himself did it. |
| 17:41.33 | levi | But, as that's just my opinion, you may feel free to disregard it and paint your Feynmann diagrams anyway. |
| 17:41.49 | hans | i'm generally opposed to putting cars on images. gets 'em all dirty |
| 17:41.58 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:42.01 | xbmodder-treo | paint caffine mocule on your car |
| 17:42.39 | findlay | levi: "Vorlath thinks I'm an |
| 17:42.41 | findlay | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:42.47 | findlay | darn |
| 17:42.48 | sjansen | I'm generally opposed. |
| 17:42.57 | levi | findlay: Eh? |
| 17:43.29 | findlay | levi: if you walked around with that on your shirt and somebody recognized what it meant it would be like when somebody recognized feynmann diagrams on his hippie van |
| 17:43.54 | findlay | then Feynmann got to tell them he was Feynmann (: |
| 17:44.29 | levi | findlay: What would I tell them, though? "Well, Vorlath is this goofy guy with a blog no one reads..." |
| 17:45.29 | findlay | I'm generally |
| 17:45.36 | RyanE | except for you (previously). :) |
| 17:47.35 | tensai | levi: put the lisp code for your blog on a t-shirt. when people ask you respond "it's my blog" |
| 17:47.48 | levi | Heh. |
| 17:48.12 | levi | Mmm, mulled cider: http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article.php?id=151 |
| 17:48.14 | brac | [Cooking For Engineers - Recipe File: Mulled Cider (Spiced Apple Cider)] |
| 17:50.06 | Jayce^ | levi, very similar to the one I make |
| 17:50.10 | hans | -lart vontrapp |
| 17:50.25 | Jayce^ | usually use a few more cloves (since most have have been in the spice bottle a little too long) |
| 17:50.36 | Jayce^ | and use honey instead of brown sugar |
| 17:51.06 | Jayce^ | also, a nice touch is to add a pat of butter at the end, |
| 17:51.18 | Jayce^ | strangely, tastes really good |
| 17:59.02 | findlay | anybody here running linux-2.6.15-*? |
| 17:59.09 | findlay | or better? |
| 17:59.38 | Newsome | yeah |
| 18:00.04 | Newsome | findlay: why? |
| 18:00.19 | findlay | Newsome: have seen what might be a kernel bug? |
| 18:00.43 | findlay | anything that might, that is |
| 18:01.43 | Newsome | I haven't seen anything in particular in the vanilla kernel. I've been running the latest -git or -mm recently, and I've found bugs there. |
| 18:01.53 | Newsome | are you seeing something in particular? |
| 18:01.56 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 18:02.16 | findlay | I'm having problems with mm/rmap.c |
| 18:02.21 | findlay | occasionally |
| 18:06.30 | Hhhhh | 2.6.13 here |
| 18:07.11 | Newsome | findlay: I've seen some recent crashes that involved free_hot_cold_page, but I don't recall whether they involved rmap.c |
| 18:08.03 | Newsome | findlay: what sort of system have you got? Some of my recent crashes were related to what turned out to be bad hardware |
| 18:08.08 | findlay | Kernel BUG at mm/rmap.c:486 |
| 18:08.22 | *** join/#utah bnicholes (n=bnichole@pluto-toqw220b.dnsdhcp.provo.novell.com) |
| 18:08.40 | findlay | Newsome: It's not bad hardware. Don't say it's bad hardware, no! |
| 18:10.31 | findlay | ~lart faulty hardware |
| 18:10.58 | Newsome | what sort of system? |
| 18:11.57 | mrpull- | SCO raised an additional $10M? |
| 18:12.02 | mrpull- | when are they going away? |
| 18:12.08 | Jayce^ | how? |
| 18:12.30 | Newsome | private placement sale of stock |
| 18:12.43 | findlay | Newsome: athlon64/asrock/ULi |
| 18:13.03 | *** join/#utah bnicholes (n=bnichole@pluto-toqw220b.dnsdhcp.provo.novell.com) |
| 18:13.44 | Newsome | findlay: okay, not the sort of system I've been seeing crashes with |
| 18:15.43 | *** join/#utah brac (i=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
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| 19:04.07 | levi | Anyone here have much experience shipping computers in non-original packaging? |
| 19:10.14 | mrpull- | levi: not a lot, what are you shipping? |
| 19:14.32 | goozbach | it's all about packing penuts |
| 19:14.36 | goozbach | er peanuts |
| 19:17.13 | mrpull- | and double boxing |
| 19:17.25 | mrpull- | and wrapping up the computer so the peanuts don't get inside :) |
| 19:18.40 | sjansen | Oo, I just got a letter from the EFF thanking me for my contribution. Sadly, it looks like they forgot to include the secret decoder ring I was promised. |
| 19:19.26 | mrpull- | sjansen: the code is "eat more ovaltine" |
| 19:22.08 | sjansen | ~define ardour |
| 19:22.15 | hans | ~ardour |
| 19:22.19 | ibot | well, ardour is a digital audio workstation suitable for real-time multi-track recording, mixing, and editing. it is available at http://ardour.sf.net, and you'll probably want jack and ladspa too. or just apt-get install ardour-gtk ... |
| 19:29.34 | hans | basically, the sound artist's canvas |
| 19:29.42 | hans | and pallette |
| 19:30.02 | hans | although at the moment I'm more interested in jsmith's lunch |
| 19:31.19 | maquis | lunch? |
| 19:31.21 | maquis | mmm |
| 19:33.22 | hans | -lart vontrapp |
| 19:33.41 | hans | just what I was afraid of. he's one of them |
| 19:34.19 | graphyx | maquis: Umm.. are you having a bzflag-a-thin? |
| 19:34.24 | graphyx | s/thin/thon/ |
| 19:34.35 | maquis | graphyx: uug is having their fragfest tonight |
| 19:34.36 | goozbach | woo! I just installed bzflag |
| 19:34.47 | goozbach | now only if I could get it working |
| 19:34.56 | graphyx | maquis: When to when? |
| 19:35.00 | graphyx | I might want to try it out. |
| 19:35.03 | maquis | servers are set up: phantom.byu.edu... ports 5154 for capture the flag and 5155 for rabbit |
| 19:35.14 | maquis | graphyx: the meeting is 7:30 to whenever |
| 19:35.19 | graphyx | I have a world domination campaign going on in Rise of Nations, but I might change the game. |
| 19:35.28 | maquis | the gaming is whenever anyone joins in |
| 19:35.37 | graphyx | Oh it's a lan party? Not just internet wide? |
| 19:35.40 | maquis | i'm thinking about putting some time in once i get things set up |
| 19:35.55 | maquis | graphyx: it's uug/plug/other utahns who are interested in jumping in |
| 19:36.54 | graphyx | I mean is there a public server or will this be limited to a physical location? |
| 19:37.27 | maquis | graphyx: it's a public server... but we're not advertising it outside of the utah lugs... |
| 19:37.44 | maquis | (and even within the utah lugs, it's not exceptionally well advertised, thanks to finals) |
| 19:38.17 | graphyx | Ok. |
| 19:38.26 | graphyx | Just curios if I would be allowed to participate from home. |
| 19:38.29 | graphyx | If I wanted to. |
| 19:38.34 | maquis | yeah |
| 19:39.12 | hans | maquis: so add it to the topic |
| 19:39.28 | maquis | hans: i will once i'm done with posting this forum question :) |
| 19:39.54 | tene | So, by any chance has anyone here stolen a violin recently? |
| 19:40.19 | graphyx | tene: I stole a glance.. does that incriminate me? |
| 19:40.20 | hans | forum? you're posting a question on a web forum? don't you realize that's against the rules? |
| 19:40.51 | sjansen | ~steal tene's mojo |
| 19:40.52 | ibot | ACTION grabs tene's mojo and gives it to sjansen |
| 19:41.03 | sjansen | tene: Is that close enough? |
| 19:43.30 | maquis | hans: well... if anyone here knows how to get my wireless card's driver and firmware to auto-load in freebsd.... |
| 19:43.49 | maquis | my experience last night showed that most people here don't run freebsd... |
| 19:43.54 | hans | nope |
| 19:44.09 | hans | i'm mostly taunting, but in my experience web forums are bad for humanity |
| 19:44.36 | maquis | hans: ah... well.. i'm sticking to some very on-topic forums for now |
| 19:44.58 | graphyx | maquis: Check out ndis-wrapper. |
| 19:45.08 | maquis | graphyx: don't need that |
| 19:45.13 | maquis | i've got the right drivers and i can get wireless |
| 19:45.14 | graphyx | ok |
| 19:45.44 | hans | do you want society to become a bunch of avatars floating around immortalizing comments like "LOL I had it pluged in teh WRONG wAY!!!!!! !!!11!!!!" |
| 19:45.46 | maquis | it's just not auto-loading the driver into the kernel (i have to call kldload) and i have to call iwicontrol to add the firmware |
| 19:46.04 | maquis | hans: like i said... i'm using a good forum :) |
| 19:46.25 | sjansen | hans: Other than the avatars, how is that different from IRC? |
| 19:46.37 | hans | ibot's logs are harder to find |
| 19:46.43 | hans | but really it's the avatars that get me |
| 19:47.09 | hans | and irc has the benefit of being more or less immediate sometimes |
| 19:47.31 | hans | otoh, if a web forums seems to have immediate response you have to really wonder about the people on the other end |
| 19:47.55 | tene | what, "<tene>" doesn't count as an avatar? |
| 19:48.06 | *** topic/#utah by maquis -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feeds | if you're looking to donate an old computer, check out stuporglue.org | UUG fragfest: phantom.byu.edu port 5154 for capture-the-flag, port 5155 for rabbit-hunt. Meeting officially starts at 7:30, but you can join anytime |
| 19:48.27 | hans | hmmm, bzflag is having a hard time |
| 19:49.15 | hans | "error unpacking world database" |
| 19:49.30 | maquis | hans: on phantom? |
| 19:49.39 | hans | no matter where I try to join |
| 19:49.57 | hans | what version is running on phantom? |
| 19:50.49 | maquis | hans: bzflag2 |
| 19:50.55 | maquis | and i'm not having any problems |
| 19:51.15 | hans | 2.0.4 here |
| 19:51.17 | maquis | except that stuporglue set things up so i can't be a rogue in capture the flag |
| 19:51.21 | hans | so perhaps the only difference is I'm ppc |
| 19:51.28 | hans | (linux) |
| 19:51.37 | maquis | dunno |
| 19:51.45 | hans | TimRiker: ping |
| 19:51.45 | maquis | i know it usually works on ppc linux |
| 19:53.11 | {-} | hans: ping ping ping ping ping |
| 19:53.22 | hans | -lart the thing |
| 20:08.34 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 20:31.34 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_ (n=xbmodder@dsl092-012-130.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:31.37 | xbmodder_ | hey |
| 20:52.39 | jsmith | hans: And what a good lunch it was :-) |
| 20:57.27 | graphyx | jsmith: You have something special go down? |
| 20:58.21 | levi | Mmm, sushi. |
| 20:58.29 | levi | I had a ham sandwich, and a PB&H sandwich. |
| 21:03.50 | hans | mmmm, peanut brittle and horseradish, my favorite |
| 21:06.58 | levi | ... |
| 21:09.44 | jsmith | hans: Good one! |
| 21:13.53 | Uncle_Jesse | gotta love Utah gov't |
| 21:14.08 | Uncle_Jesse | Utah's government has the dirtiest minds of all states |
| 21:14.24 | Uncle_Jesse | I tried to register "shabang" and it came up as "restricted" |
| 21:14.30 | Uncle_Jesse | (as my license plate) |
| 21:15.03 | Uncle_Jesse | I can think of a derogatory term of almost any word out there if I were to really think about it |
| 21:15.54 | synic | I can't really think of one for shabang... though I guess it does sound kind of ... um... pointy |
| 21:16.50 | jsmith | Uncle_Jesse: Can you register vanity plates online, or do you have to wait for a long bureaucratic process? |
| 21:17.27 | Uncle_Jesse | jsmith: you can fill out the registration form online and check for availability, but it has to be submitted in person |
| 21:17.42 | Uncle_Jesse | va is all online - it's much easier |
| 21:18.00 | jsmith | Uncle_Jesse: Link? |
| 21:18.11 | Uncle_Jesse | I think it's just on dmv.utah.gov |
| 21:18.14 | Uncle_Jesse | google utah dmv |
| 21:18.35 | jsmith | Why do I need google if you'll do it for me? |
| 21:18.46 | Uncle_Jesse | ~google utah dmv |
| 21:19.04 | Uncle_Jesse | ibot? |
| 21:20.33 | Uncle_Jesse | sorry - if ibot can't do it I don't know if I can help ;-) |
| 21:33.08 | *** join/#utah xbmodder1 (n=xbmodder@dsl092-012-130.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 21:33.19 | xbmodder1 | why do people get paid for what I like to do for fnu? |
| 21:34.56 | Uncle_Jesse | because you get to have fun and get paid at the same time |
| 21:34.57 | levi | xbmodder1: I suspect that no one actually gets paid for what you like to do for fun. They probably get paid for programming real software, though, but I suspect you might not enjoy that as much as abusing DNS servers or whatever. ;) |
| 21:36.24 | sjansen | Generally, people get paid because either 1) the do the job well or 2) they know the right people. |
| 21:37.45 | JoshH | Uncle_Jesse: i usually see it spelled as shebang, did you try that? |
| 21:37.57 | xbmodder1 | sjansen: I go for 2 |
| 21:38.36 | Uncle_Jesse | JoshH: I'm sure that one is restricted - the Camel book says it can be spelled either way |
| 21:38.37 | xbmodder1 | finding out why from room A it takes 10 minutes for people to long in but in room B it takes 30 seconds |
| 21:38.44 | RyanE | sjansen: or both. |
| 21:39.00 | JoshH | what about !# |
| 21:39.02 | Uncle_Jesse | one definition for it is it is short for "sharp" and "bang" |
| 21:39.12 | Uncle_Jesse | no ! or # allowed |
| 21:39.14 | xbmodder1 | levi: "abusing" DNS is fun, but I am taking my knowledge to good use now. |
| 21:39.18 | Uncle_Jesse | or any other punctuation |
| 21:39.18 | JoshH | lame |
| 21:39.21 | JoshH | utah sucks |
| 21:39.41 | Uncle_Jesse | well, the punctuation thing is pretty normal across all states |
| 21:39.45 | Uncle_Jesse | va allowed - though |
| 21:40.00 | Uncle_Jesse | I saw a "PERL -W" there |
| 21:40.11 | sjansen | JoshH: Hardly. If we let license plates have punctuation, that would be the terrorists have already won. |
| 21:41.01 | RyanE | sjansen: heh |
| 21:41.27 | RyanE | I've seen - on license plates here, but it was 'aftermarket'. Someone put a deep blue sticker on where the '-' would go. |
| 21:46.01 | xbmodder1 | Whats the java equavelent of python dictionaries (keyed arrays) |
| 21:47.29 | JoshH | i don't see what the point is in being nazi about offensive licence plates anyway |
| 21:47.46 | JoshH | people can have bumper stickers or license plate frames that say anything |
| 21:49.42 | Uncle_Jesse | JoshH: I agree. Any word can be taken offensively in one form or another |
| 21:50.14 | Uncle_Jesse | If someone gets offended because I have "shabang" on my license plate, it is their fault, not mine for being offended |
| 21:50.40 | JoshH | right |
| 21:51.04 | JoshH | i don't believe in accomodating people who look for things that offend them |
| 21:52.04 | Uncle_Jesse | yeah - they shouldn't judge - it usually means something different for you than it does them |
| 21:52.40 | JoshH | i saw a truck with a wyoming license plate a while ago |
| 21:52.53 | Uncle_Jesse | JoshH: really? |
| 21:52.57 | Uncle_Jesse | ;-) |
| 21:53.02 | JoshH | the trailer hitch was modified to look like a realistic phallus and testicles |
| 21:53.17 | JoshH | and if that's legal, then shabang should be legal too |
| 21:53.42 | Uncle_Jesse | yeah - it's hard to draw the line |
| 21:53.54 | Uncle_Jesse | that's just my libertarian mind speaking though |
| 21:54.25 | JoshH | if more people with libertarian minds would speak up, utah would be a much better place |
| 21:54.52 | JoshH | but too many "libertarians" just vote straight republican anyway. *sigh* |
| 21:56.35 | Uncle_Jesse | part of the issue is most libertarian politicians aren't as experienced as the republican contenders |
| 21:56.42 | Uncle_Jesse | (in politics) |
| 21:56.50 | JoshH | ya, the republicans are pros |
| 21:56.57 | Uncle_Jesse | it's chicken and the egg though |
| 22:03.00 | levi | License plates are technically owned by the state, though, aren't they? |
| 22:04.44 | tensai | levi: I'm not sure about that. I think it varies by the state. In Idaho they asked if I already had plates to use. |
| 22:04.50 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: yeah, but how can they define what is "appropriate" and what is not? |
| 22:05.03 | Uncle_Jesse | tensai may be right |
| 22:05.42 | tensai | Uncle_Jesse: because they make the plates, they get to decide |
| 22:06.00 | Uncle_Jesse | tensai: but who is "they"? |
| 22:06.18 | Uncle_Jesse | A group of different individuals all with different interpretations of words? |
| 22:06.29 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: Your elected representatives, I would imagine. |
| 22:06.37 | levi | Or some people appointed by them. |
| 22:07.47 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: exactly - they are taking the opinions of others in Utah, not the exact definitions of words |
| 22:08.18 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:08.18 | levi | What are the exact definitions of words, if not the consensus of others? |
| 22:09.16 | Uncle_Jesse | I'd like to see how they came up with "shabang" is a bad word - did they ask the people that voted for them? |
| 22:09.29 | levi | Of course not. |
| 22:09.37 | RyanE | likely anything with 'bang' in it. |
| 22:09.47 | RyanE | but yeah, that's retarded. |
| 22:09.54 | Uncle_Jesse | my point is a few individuals can't define what is "bad" and what is "good" therefore it shouldn't be for the gov't to decide that |
| 22:10.25 | RyanE | well, by definition, the gov'ment IS a small group of individuals who decide what is "bad" and what is "good". |
| 22:10.37 | levi | They aren't deciding what's 'bad' or 'good', they're deciding what you can put on vanity plates. |
| 22:10.59 | levi | I'm sure you could follow some legal process to challenge their decision, if you wanted to. |
| 22:12.17 | RyanE | when I say 'bad' and 'good', I'm meaning of course 'acceptable to society' and 'unacceptable to society'. Sure, 'The Government' doesn't decide what's bad or good, but they do decide what's legal and not, or allowed on licence plates or not. |
| 22:12.26 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: that all depends on what point of view you have on what role government has |
| 22:13.24 | RyanE | Uncle_Jesse: I'm not saying they SHOULD decide everything, that it should all be spelled out, but they're elected to make and enforce laws by which we're governed. |
| 22:13.48 | RyanE | sure, I think it's stupid and heavy-handed for them to say 'shebang' is not valid for a license plate. |
| 22:13.59 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: and I'm saying that should be minimal to the extent the people can be the ones deciding what is bad and what is good |
| 22:14.11 | levi | They don't really have to allow vanity plates at all. |
| 22:14.26 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: they could also force us to all be in one religion |
| 22:14.37 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: Not legally. |
| 22:14.52 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: if congress were to ammend the constitution, yeah |
| 22:15.03 | Uncle_Jesse | but not likely |
| 22:15.14 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: Well, yes, but let's be realistic. |
| 22:15.20 | RyanE | however, I think that they DO have to draw SOME line in the sand. Things that are on vanity plates are in a sense 'endorsed' by the government. |
| 22:15.49 | RyanE | as opposed to the genitalia on the trailer hitch example. |
| 22:15.59 | levi | I would just as soon do away with vanity plates altogether. |
| 22:16.00 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: if that's the case they may as well not allow vanity plates at all. Vanity plates are chosen by the people |
| 22:16.28 | RyanE | well, they of course WANT vanity plates, for the revenue. |
| 22:16.54 | Uncle_Jesse | yeah - then they shouldn't have restrictions - you can't have it both ways |
| 22:17.04 | Uncle_Jesse | without offending someone |
| 22:18.10 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: The only difference between this and having some bumper sticker company that you can use to order customized bumper stickers is that you have some (remote and rather vague) control over the laws regarding them. |
| 22:18.38 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: which is why you should either allow anything or nothing at all |
| 22:18.51 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: So, start some legal action, man! |
| 22:19.00 | levi | It's your government. |
| 22:19.07 | RyanE | yeah, sue for your shebang! |
| 22:19.16 | Uncle_Jesse | I will! :-) |
| 22:19.27 | Uncle_Jesse | ~protest |
| 22:19.29 | jsmith | Can you appeal? |
| 22:19.31 | jsmith | ~appeal |
| 22:19.38 | tensai | ~riot |
| 22:19.39 | ibot | [riot] apt |
| 22:19.47 | RyanE | or shabang, depending on your choice, I suppose. :) |
| 22:20.58 | tensai | let's consider the DMV's choices. if they let you put "shebang" on your plates, lots of people will read that wrong, get offended and call the DMV. I think it's entirely appropriate for the DMV to censor what's allowed. |
| 22:21.00 | Uncle_Jesse | I wouldn't choose shebang because that could see personally how that could be offensive to someone. I probably wouldn't care if someone else had it though. |
| 22:21.39 | Uncle_Jesse | tensai: probably a minority though - they just have the loudest voice |
| 22:22.19 | Uncle_Jesse | I would hope the government wouldn't rely on that as their only reason for revoking it |
| 22:22.50 | Uncle_Jesse | If it could be proven that it hurts the population as a whole then they would have good reason |
| 22:22.51 | levi | They would likely do whatever their policy directs them to do in complaint situations. |
| 22:23.00 | Uncle_Jesse | wimps |
| 22:23.24 | levi | Proof isn't necessary for legislation. |
| 22:23.40 | levi | Only convincing of legislators. |
| 22:25.59 | Uncle_Jesse | I think people in politics back down too much when people start complaining |
| 22:26.07 | tensai | Uncle_Jesse: why is it the DMV's responsibility to provide an outlet for your freedom of speech? If you want your car to say "shebang" there are plenty of ways to do it. |
| 22:26.12 | JoshH | depends if the people complaining have any money |
| 22:26.29 | JoshH | or a large voting bloc |
| 22:26.36 | sjansen | I can see why the govt. would outlaw the eating of meat on fridays. A small group or people might get offended and call their representative. I think it's entirely appropriate for the govt. to censor what's allowed. |
| 22:27.25 | Uncle_Jesse | tensai: the point is the government setting any standard of what offends whom |
| 22:28.02 | Bradipo | levi: I would just as soon do away with plates altogether. |
| 22:28.19 | Uncle_Jesse | Bradipo: me too - go with RFID :-) |
| 22:28.24 | Uncle_Jesse | or barcodes |
| 22:28.46 | sjansen | I can see why the govt. would outlaw the opening of a strip club next door to Uncle_Jesse. Uncle_Jesse might get offended. It think it entirely appropriate for the govt. to censor what's allowed. |
| 22:29.05 | Uncle_Jesse | really though, if every car could be required to have an rfid chip in it, it could just be reprogrammed for each owner |
| 22:29.38 | sjansen | I can see why the govt. would outlaw the dumping of nuclear waste next to Bradipo's house. Bradipo might get offended. I think it entirely appropriate for the govt. to censor what's allowed. |
| 22:29.56 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: I think the government should allow opening of strip clubs - just zone it so they are all in one area and people can choose not to be next to them or go to them |
| 22:30.15 | Uncle_Jesse | I don't agree with strip clubs, but I don't think it's the role of govt to censor them |
| 22:30.33 | JoshH | the government should never protect people from being "offended", it should only protect people from actual harm, fraud, etc |
| 22:30.55 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: I think dumping of nuclear waste should be allowed too, just designated as to where it is dumped so people can choose not to live near it |
| 22:31.16 | Uncle_Jesse | as long as people still have choice, I'm fine |
| 22:31.29 | sjansen | I think offensive license plates should be allowed, just designated as to where they're allowed to drive. |
| 22:31.29 | JoshH | it would be nice if states that used nuclear power had to take care of their own waste though |
| 22:32.04 | RyanE | sjansen: or only one state, NJ allowed them, and everyone who didn't mind getting offended by obviously rude plates would have to live there. |
| 22:32.10 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: no, they should be allowed - people can choose if they are offended or not |
| 22:32.28 | Uncle_Jesse | either that or no vanity plates at all |
| 22:32.42 | Uncle_Jesse | so noone chooses to be offended at all |
| 22:32.45 | JoshH | and if they are offended, they can choose to write a letter to the deseret news about how our society is morally bankrupt because they saw a trashy license plate |
| 22:33.07 | Uncle_Jesse | exactly |
| 22:33.09 | sjansen | Yes. Because the Internet can contain controversial material, we should not allow anyone to have Internet access at all. |
| 22:33.27 | JoshH | and urging people to avoid rated pg-13 movies to teach hollywood a lesson that nobody wants to watch that smut |
| 22:33.33 | Uncle_Jesse | people can change people - the government will never succeed in that |
| 22:34.03 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: the government doesn't control the internet, thank goodness |
| 22:34.12 | sjansen | sure it does |
| 22:34.19 | RyanE | actually, people CAN'T change people. People can only change themselves. |
| 22:34.47 | RyanE | unless you're talking about me changing my 2yo. I can change him. I try to avoid it, but that doesn't always work. :) |
| 22:34.47 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: yeah, but people are going to have a greater effect on people changing themselves than the govt |
| 22:35.12 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: the govt doesn't own the internet though - it doesn't regulate it |
| 22:35.15 | sjansen | Ha! So there, RyanE! |
| 22:35.34 | RyanE | sjansen: I already have half a moustache... can't find the 'lectric razor. |
| 22:36.25 | sjansen | So what's your justification for zoning the strip club? What harm (as compared to offense) are you protecting me from? Decline in property value? |
| 22:37.09 | sjansen | Why are rude neighbors allowed, then? They can also push down property value. Neighbors should be forced to be nice to each other to protect the neighborhood from harm. |
| 22:37.26 | Uncle_Jesse | Govt shouldn't be protecting you from moral harm - it should allow you to protect yourself from moral harm. |
| 22:37.42 | RyanE | 'moral harm'.... ooh, you're on the slippery slope... |
| 22:38.23 | RyanE | Uncle_Jesse: I think TheGov should protect my children from learning such vile expressions as 'shebang'. :) |
| 22:38.32 | sjansen | So if I feel the gay couple living next door is "morally harmful" to my children, I should be allowed to torch their house to force them out? |
| 22:38.34 | JoshH | Uncle_Jesse: basically, it's just one of those cases where the majority gets their way, even though it's not necessarily right. |
| 22:39.00 | JoshH | sjansen: no, but you can vote to ban them from getting married. :P |
| 22:39.16 | RyanE | sjansen: no, YOU can't torch their house, but the government can zone them to another part of town. |
| 22:39.26 | Uncle_Jesse | From a mormon perspective, most Utahns should be for what I'm saying - before this life we "chose" to be able to "choose", not be forced into what to do |
| 22:39.55 | Uncle_Jesse | IMO you should always choose the method that gives people the most choice |
| 22:40.13 | sjansen | RyanE: And if I find hispanic culture morally harmful, should they be zoned into their own ghetto too? |
| 22:40.29 | Uncle_Jesse | That's my opinion though |
| 22:41.32 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: actually, Joseph Smith recommended buying Mexico and sending Indians down there, and designating states for different nationalities so cultures could be maintained (probably wouldn't vibe today though) |
| 22:41.33 | RyanE | sjansen: yeah, my point is that 'morally harmful' is a slippery slope. |
| 22:42.07 | RyanE | because not everyone has the same morals. |
| 22:42.14 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: that's why I don't think the government should be the ones defining that |
| 22:42.49 | RyanE | except for where you think they're justified in zoning sexually-explicit businesses. |
| 22:43.17 | RyanE | where's your line for where they should draw the line? |
| 22:43.20 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: Making things illegal doesn't remove the ability to choose whether or not to do them, it just changes the consequences. |
| 22:43.54 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: although I don't agree with it, I think government should still allow the "non-moral" type businesses the rest of the population would think of as moral - everyone should be able to have a choice |
| 22:44.09 | JoshH | levi: well if strip clubs are illegal, how can you choose to visit one? |
| 22:44.12 | maquis | JoshH: just because something's illegal, doesn't mean it doesn't exist |
| 22:44.29 | RyanE | levi: I guess Uncle_Jesse could then just make his OWN Utah plate that says shabang! |
| 22:44.34 | Uncle_Jesse | illegal is closer to "force" than choice |
| 22:44.37 | JoshH | maquis: hehe, i haven't heard of any underground speakeasy type strip clubs. |
| 22:44.41 | RyanE | it'd be illegal, but hey, he can still do it. |
| 22:44.46 | JoshH | sure, there are prostitutes and such |
| 22:45.01 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: no, because government still needs to protect my security |
| 22:45.22 | RyanE | and making your own plates protects your security... how? |
| 22:45.23 | maquis | JoshH: i wouldn't know |
| 22:45.32 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@12-208-14-28.client.insightBB.com) |
| 22:45.42 | maquis | -lart pmcnabb |
| 22:45.47 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: it allows me and others to identify vehicles that want to harm me or my family |
| 22:46.06 | Uncle_Jesse | why does the government have license plates other than that? |
| 22:46.13 | sjansen | Let's just face it. Living in a community (defined as two or more people) is messy and difficult. Absolute rules like "govt. should only concern itself with my physical safety" is doomed to being too simplistic. |
| 22:46.33 | RyanE | to verify that they've extracted their taxes from you. :) |
| 22:46.49 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: govt should be protecting my choice and freedoms, not just my security |
| 22:47.21 | sjansen | Uncle_Jesse: Okay, so you don't care of economics or infrastructure? |
| 22:48.12 | pmcnabb | -lart emcnabb |
| 22:48.13 | sjansen | And why should it protect only your freedom? |
| 22:48.41 | sjansen | Does your freedom to not be nauseated in public settings mean that I'm not free to walk around nude in those same settings? |
| 22:48.41 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: I agree with freedom to make money :-) |
| 22:48.53 | RyanE | I kind of like infrastructure. well, that and shiney things! |
| 22:49.07 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: what else should it protect? |
| 22:50.01 | tensai | I think we can all agree govt. should protect us from sjansen walking around nude |
| 22:50.15 | tensai | that's a crime against humanity |
| 22:50.20 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 22:50.31 | RyanE | and if he is allowed to walk around nude, the terrorists will have already won. |
| 22:50.58 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: while I agree with tensai about you :-) I think there are many ways to work around that and satisfy both parties - zoning, for example |
| 22:51.14 | Uncle_Jesse | those that don't want to see you walk around nude don't have to go in the areas designated |
| 22:51.23 | Uncle_Jesse | and I would definitely not be there :-) |
| 22:51.43 | sjansen | Okay, I claim all the good zones. You can have the left over swamp land for yourself. |
| 22:52.11 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: If you can somehow frame your views into a conservative Republican platform, you could possibly get elected to a local office and do something about implementing them. |
| 22:52.48 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: I'm actually tempted |
| 22:52.59 | Uncle_Jesse | I'm listed as republican for political reasons |
| 22:53.23 | sjansen | "If elected, I promise to give myself the license plate I want. Because I only want the plate, I promise I won't raise taxes." |
| 22:53.28 | Uncle_Jesse | party means nothing these days |
| 22:53.34 | Uncle_Jesse | other than funding |
| 22:53.39 | RyanE | Uncle_Jesse: if your platform is to allow unrestricted vanity plates, good luck with that. |
| 22:53.41 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: lol |
| 22:53.47 | tensai | I'm listed as a howler monkey for tax reasons |
| 22:54.05 | Uncle_Jesse | RyanE: my platform is freedom |
| 22:54.25 | Uncle_Jesse | (for all, not just those considered "immoral") |
| 22:54.33 | sjansen | Because, of course, the Democratic party's platform does not include freedom. |
| 22:54.37 | Uncle_Jesse | for instance, I agree with filters in public libraries |
| 22:54.51 | JoshH | filters there should be optional for adults, imo |
| 22:55.05 | JoshH | the truth is, these days you aren't going to find porn on the net unless you are looking for it |
| 22:55.14 | Uncle_Jesse | but I also think separate rooms should be designated without filters for non-minors |
| 22:55.22 | jsmith | JoshH: FWIW, when I renewed my library card the other day, they asked me whether I wanted my internet access filtered |
| 22:55.28 | JoshH | that's cool then |
| 22:55.41 | JoshH | but there are some politicians who want them mandatory, unfortunately |
| 22:55.46 | Uncle_Jesse | jsmith: that's a great way of doing it |
| 22:56.22 | JoshH | i remember the good ole days when you went to a restaraunt and they asked smoking or non |
| 22:56.27 | Uncle_Jesse | I still like the separate room for non-filtered access however |
| 22:56.34 | Uncle_Jesse | that way I don't have to see what you're looking at |
| 22:56.43 | tensai | libraries don't subscribe to playboy, how is that different? |
| 22:56.59 | sjansen | they don't have to pay extra for the porn, you do |
| 22:57.36 | Uncle_Jesse | tensai: a library can't subscribe to everything out there - nor should they have to. |
| 22:57.40 | JoshH | tensai: but if you want to login to your playboy.com account from the libary, should you be allowed to? |
| 22:57.47 | levi | tensai: If you don't subscribe to playboy, you're choosing exactly what you don't get. When you contract your net filtering out to a random company, who knows what they're going to block or allow? |
| 22:58.10 | hans | Uncle_Jesse: if you used shabang the only people you hoped would get your plate would be offended because you spelled it wrong |
| 22:58.31 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: maybe that's it :-) |
| 22:58.33 | Uncle_Jesse | lol |
| 22:58.37 | sjansen | I hardly think that forcing waiters to shorten their lifespan breathing toxic fumes counts as "the good ole days". |
| 22:58.39 | JoshH | hans: he already mentioned that the camel book says you can spell it either way ;) |
| 22:59.03 | JoshH | waaaaay up at the top of the chat though |
| 22:59.06 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: that's why I believe in smoking sections with filters in the non-smoking so nonsmokers can't be affected |
| 22:59.20 | Uncle_Jesse | we're getting into a lot of details though |
| 22:59.49 | sjansen | The devil's in the details. That's why govt. still exists instead of everyone just agreeing to live the the laws of hammurabi and be done with it. |
| 22:59.50 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: That doesn't do much for the wait staff, though. |
| 23:00.06 | hans | JoshH: oh yes, the camel book would be the authority on something that far predates perl |
| 23:00.16 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: if you don't have wait staff to wait the smoking section, you shouldn't have to have a smoking section - it should be up to the business |
| 23:00.29 | JoshH | something predates perl? :O |
| 23:00.39 | tensai | larry predates perl |
| 23:00.50 | tensai | in the beginning there was larry... |
| 23:00.53 | sjansen | JoshH: most dirt predates Larry |
| 23:01.06 | JoshH | levi: or what about a buffet with no "servers" |
| 23:01.17 | Uncle_Jesse | wow - 2 flame wars at once |
| 23:01.27 | levi | Well, those are not cases where servers are involved. |
| 23:01.35 | tensai | can we somehow incorporate emacs into this discussion? |
| 23:01.37 | JoshH | most waiters smoke anyway |
| 23:01.50 | JoshH | but i believe that people who care about their health should choose to work somewhere with no smoke |
| 23:02.11 | sjansen | Well, you could argue that emacs is the epitomie of the freedom Uncle_Jesse proposes and look where that got it? |
| 23:02.26 | levi | sjansen: I like my emacs. |
| 23:02.32 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: nah - I like vi |
| 23:02.35 | RyanE | emacs sucks |
| 23:02.39 | Uncle_Jesse | much more freedom |
| 23:02.53 | levi | Heh. How is vi more free than emacs? |
| 23:03.16 | sjansen | Hardly. Can you get an emacs mode for vi? You can get a vi mode for emacs. Admit it, Uncle_Jesse, emacs is closer to your espoused ideals. |
| 23:03.48 | levi | . o O ( I like freedom, and I like vi, so vi must be free. Yeah! ) |
| 23:03.57 | hans | sjansen: in emacs can you get the key sequence #! to mean something? |
| 23:04.00 | pmcnabb | levi: it takes so long to do commands in emacs (control + this or that), you you have more _free_ time |
| 23:04.16 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: yeah, but I can choose not to have emacs in vi - you can't choose not to have vi in emacs |
| 23:04.22 | Uncle_Jesse | :-) |
| 23:04.23 | levi | pmcnabb: That's silly. Hitting a key-chord doesn't take very long. |
| 23:04.24 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 23:04.32 | RyanE | levi: gotta love appeal to authority, and who's a better authority than... ME! |
| 23:04.34 | pmcnabb | eh, it adds up :) |
| 23:04.42 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: I can remove viper from my emacs pretty easily. |
| 23:05.07 | levi | pmcnabb: I think emacs is faster because I don't have to switch modes all the time. |
| 23:05.12 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: but you can still have it there - I can't ever have it in vi, so my choice is more respected |
| 23:05.24 | RyanE | boy, how the emacs vs vi discussion WIPED out the government and even the shebang controversies. |
| 23:05.35 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: Now that's some twisted reasoning. |
| 23:05.42 | JoshH | RyanE: heh, this is a geek channel after all |
| 23:05.43 | RyanE | just goes to show what's really important. arbitrary choice of editor. |
| 23:05.44 | Uncle_Jesse | lets just all agree that OSS gives us LOTS of freedom and call it even |
| 23:05.44 | hans | time-dependent |
| 23:05.45 | sjansen | I think the govt. should outlaw all but one editor for the good of everyone. Our economic potential is being hobbled by lack of standards. |
| 23:06.02 | tensai | Uncle_Jesse: I /could/ cut my arm off, but why would I? same for emacs. |
| 23:06.06 | RyanE | the the editor of choice shall be... vi! |
| 23:06.15 | levi | sjansen: And that editor would be... Notepad.exe |
| 23:06.16 | pmcnabb | levi: switching is often done automatically. like hitting 'A' does a command and starts editing |
| 23:06.16 | hans | sjansen: shhh! you know they'd choose either VS or Notepad in that case! Or maybe Word! |
| 23:06.23 | RyanE | levi: ouch |
| 23:06.39 | levi | pmcnabb: Except switching the other way. |
| 23:06.48 | RyanE | and all HTML editing will be in MS Word 5.0 |
| 23:07.06 | pmcnabb | levi: fortunately it's only a single key and not a string :) |
| 23:07.14 | hans | i think it all evens out |
| 23:07.21 | sjansen | Perhaps we could reach a compromise by restricting emacs users to living in only certain zones. |
| 23:07.50 | RyanE | yeah, and only allow them to use certain architectures. |
| 23:07.51 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: I'm all for that one |
| 23:08.00 | Uncle_Jesse | keep you guys away from us ;-) |
| 23:08.13 | RyanE | I don't want my kids seeing emacs usage. That's just *wrong*. |
| 23:08.18 | tensai | emacs users can only edit lisp. all c code must be edited in vi. |
| 23:08.20 | RyanE | Think of the Children! |
| 23:08.31 | Uncle_Jesse | our streets could be made of gold and houses made of marble in viland |
| 23:08.38 | harleypig | http://www.djspyhunter.com/teapot/uploaded_images/rsstroom_reader_restroom-761230.jpg |
| 23:08.39 | maquis | any freebsd users? |
| 23:09.03 | jlp_work | yes, many of them |
| 23:09.08 | jlp_work | not here, however :-/ |
| 23:09.17 | Uncle_Jesse | I think we should have a #utahemacs and a #utahvi too |
| 23:09.25 | jlp_work | jk, I use it, ask away |
| 23:09.43 | sjansen | Now there's soemthing that should be outlawed for the good of all: harleypig |
| 23:09.52 | Uncle_Jesse | LOL |
| 23:10.06 | Uncle_Jesse | he could have his own land |
| 23:10.10 | Uncle_Jesse | ;-) |
| 23:10.14 | Uncle_Jesse | jk harleypig |
| 23:10.21 | jlp_work | maquis: you might want to ask your bsd questions on #gubug (the utah bsd users group channel), on an irc server near you (this one, in fact) |
| 23:10.50 | hans | i welcome our cycle-riding swine overlords to new mexico |
| 23:10.53 | jlp_work | we're not a talkative bunch over there, but you'll probably get an answer to your question if you wait around long enough |
| 23:11.07 | levi | tensai: I like editing C with emacs |
| 23:11.47 | hans | levi: now that's an interesting question. can you enjoy doing something you don't enjoy more if you do it in a way you enjoy more than doing something you do enjoy in a way you don't enjoy? |
| 23:11.50 | levi | tensai: Sometimes I still edit it with vim, but I'm pretty ambi-editor-ous these days. |
| 23:12.05 | harleypig | Uncle_Jesse: you have happy shrooms? :> |
| 23:12.05 | neybar_work | harleypig: that is Awesome! |
| 23:12.08 | tensai | hans: who's on first? |
| 23:12.09 | hans | and there's proof positive that you can use both dvorak and qwerty |
| 23:12.31 | harleypig | sjansen: How come? I mean, just cause I paste bad songs in here by mistake ... |
| 23:12.32 | Uncle_Jesse | harleypig: yeah - right here behind this gate - come on in! ;-) |
| 23:12.49 | levi | hans: Yes, there is greater net enjoyment if you do something unpleasant in a manner that is marginally more pleasant than another manner. |
| 23:13.26 | levi | hans: e.g., picking up dog crap with a pooper-scooper instead of your hands. |
| 23:13.29 | hans | but if you do something you don't like in a way you do like, so you have just barely higher net enjoyment than doing something you do like in a manner you don't like |
| 23:13.34 | Uncle_Jesse | maybe the shrooms are the cause of my libertarian thinking |
| 23:13.43 | hans | then in the long run, are you better off for the greedy search? |
| 23:13.58 | hans | or might you have gotten used to the "less desirable" manner of doing what you do like to do? |
| 23:14.00 | maquis | jlp_work: cool |
| 23:14.08 | hans | otoh perhaps you would have learned to enjoy doing what you didn't like to do |
| 23:14.11 | hans | guess it's a toss-up |
| 23:14.26 | levi | hans: Would you ever prefer picking up dog crap with your hands instead of a pooper-scooper? |
| 23:15.02 | hans | I'm talking about comparing picking up dog crap with a scooper, vs. say coding in edlin |
| 23:15.40 | hans | obviously you'd have to choose the balance carefully to make it an interesting argument. but that's what philosophy's all about right? |
| 23:16.59 | levi | I don't see the parallel there. |
| 23:17.14 | sjansen | I suspect most philosophy majors would prefer emacs. |
| 23:17.34 | levi | Or, rather, how that comparison matches up with your original question. |
| 23:17.42 | levi | sjansen: On what basis do you suspect that? |
| 23:17.46 | sjansen | (Although I'm not sure which party I actually insulted with that statement.) |
| 23:18.21 | levi | sjansen: You're OLDER than you've ever been, and now you're even OLDER! |
| 23:23.57 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 23:27.23 | *** join/#utah hans__ (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 23:32.16 | emcnabb | I'm pumped for bzflag tonight |
| 23:32.42 | elg | I'm not. I can't get the stupid thing to run |
| 23:34.07 | maquis | emcnabb: sweet... which do you prefer? rabbit or capture-the-flag? |
| 23:34.34 | emcnabb | capture the flag |
| 23:35.00 | maquis | nice |
| 23:38.00 | levi | I'm pumped to find the problem with my car's O2 sensor heater circuit and change the filter in my furnace tonight. |
| 23:38.09 | levi | It's gonna be so fun! |
| 23:38.23 | levi | I bet you all wish you could help me. |
| 23:41.45 | levi | See, hans was so jealous he had to leave to avoid saying something he'd regret. |
| 23:42.04 | levi | He's too far away to come help. Too bad for him! |
| 23:46.08 | pmcnabb | i wonder if amcnabb will be playing bzflag tonight? |
| 23:55.21 | goozbach | pmcnabb, there's a pmcnabb now!!! |
| 23:55.32 | goozbach | another mcnabb power grab? |
| 23:55.59 | pmcnabb | nothing to see here, move along.. |
| 23:56.32 | goozbach | ok I'm ready: http://www.3gungear.com/images/people_pics/sg_gearselection.jpg |
| 23:57.59 | pmcnabb | goozbach, i don't know if that's enough.. |
| 23:58.22 | goozbach | wait till you see my back |
| 23:59.12 | goozbach | I've got one of these on my back: http://www.3gungear.com/images/shotgun/chest_carrier/chesdt_angl_1.jpg |
