| 00:09.15 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@c-67-166-97-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:14.18 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@c-67-166-97-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
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| 01:09.51 | maquis | anyone here who could help with a vim question? |
| 01:10.53 | RyanE | maquis: what vim question? I use vim a lot, but I'm not a vim wizard. |
| 01:11.13 | maquis | i want to make a vim template and use it automatically for a certain filetype |
| 01:11.22 | maquis | i used to have it setup, but i don't remember how |
| 01:11.32 | RyanE | yeah, you've already hit my limits. :) |
| 01:11.49 | RyanE | I haven't made any templates as of yet. I must always program in popular languages. :) |
| 01:11.50 | maquis | ok... i'll keep looking |
| 01:11.55 | maquis | thanks |
| 01:12.00 | maquis | yeah.... it's for latex |
| 01:12.02 | RyanE | fer nuthin'. |
| 01:12.11 | maquis | so i don't have to remembe the header |
| 01:12.15 | maquis | haha |
| 01:15.34 | maquis | hmmm... |
| 01:15.57 | mheath | Wow |
| 01:16.05 | mheath | Everything that could have gone wrong tonight, did. |
| 01:16.08 | maquis | note to self... when you know you had something working previously, i suggest checking your other box before googling |
| 01:16.14 | mheath | And our regional manager decided to show up in the middle of it |
| 01:16.16 | maquis | mheath: really? |
| 01:16.23 | mheath | Yes. |
| 01:16.31 | maquis | mheath: care to elaborate? |
| 01:16.55 | mheath | maquis: Well, our system is all electronic |
| 01:17.06 | maquis | ok |
| 01:17.15 | mheath | IE, servers type in orders on a touchscreen, and they show up on two screens in the back |
| 01:17.18 | mheath | One is mine, one is the cooks |
| 01:17.39 | maquis | umm... ok |
| 01:17.46 | maquis | what's your screen for? |
| 01:17.48 | mheath | The cooks hit a button to mark food as cooking, and one to mark it as done. After its done, I pull it out of the window and hit a button on my screen to clear the order |
| 01:17.48 | maquis | oh... |
| 01:17.51 | maquis | wait.. i get it |
| 01:17.56 | mheath | (I pull food, do final prep, etc) |
| 01:18.05 | maquis | ok |
| 01:18.07 | mheath | The first issue was just a bad timing issue |
| 01:18.13 | mheath | This happens all this time, just not as bad as this... |
| 01:18.15 | maquis | as in? |
| 01:18.34 | mheath | About 20 orders got done in a period of about 2 minutes |
| 01:18.40 | mheath | We have a timelimit of 16 minutes..... |
| 01:18.56 | mheath | So I had about 20 orders of food to pull, with a strict timelimit, pretty much all at once. It was chaos. |
| 01:19.13 | mheath | But we worked through it... |
| 01:19.29 | mheath | Then, later on, the button that the cooks used to mark food as cooking and as done......broke. |
| 01:19.44 | mheath | So our computer screens were filling up with orders we'd already pulled |
| 01:20.11 | mheath | And there was so much old junk that the cooks couldn't see the new orders coming in |
| 01:20.12 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@66.243.51.74) |
| 01:20.14 | RyanE | mheath: and no manual override? |
| 01:20.22 | RyanE | ouch |
| 01:20.38 | mheath | RyanE: I bet there is, but the one manager there is incompetent.] |
| 01:20.48 | maquis | mheath: wow |
| 01:20.51 | mheath | So we had to setup a temporary paper-based system |
| 01:20.58 | mheath | Which didn't work very well..... |
| 01:21.24 | mheath | maquis: You said the regional person coming on was a bad thing... |
| 01:21.26 | mheath | It was |
| 01:21.27 | mheath | BUT |
| 01:21.38 | mheath | The manager we had there is an incompetent fool |
| 01:21.54 | mheath | She pretty much ignored the button issue at first "Oh, I don't have a backup switch. I don't know what to tell you." |
| 01:22.08 | mheath | (It wears often enough that they usually keep a backup) |
| 01:22.18 | maquis | so, maybe the regional manager might've noticed that the manager was an incompetent fool? |
| 01:22.35 | mheath | I dunno. But the regional manager stepped in and corrected the issues |
| 01:22.48 | mheath | Drove to another applebees to get a new switch, helped out, corrected issues, etc. |
| 01:22.59 | maquis | was the regional manager at all impressed that you guys tried to get some sort of system on your own? |
| 01:23.13 | maquis | (without the manager helping) |
| 01:23.31 | mheath | She was gone for most of that |
| 01:23.34 | mheath | (Going to get the new switch) |
| 01:23.41 | maquis | ok |
| 01:23.51 | maquis | why didn't your manager go to get a new switch? |
| 01:24.04 | mheath | Because she's incompetent. |
| 01:24.08 | maquis | ah |
| 01:24.13 | mheath | She's seriously dumb enough that it never occured to her |
| 01:24.14 | maquis | ok... continue |
| 01:24.23 | mheath | Thats pretty much the end |
| 01:24.31 | mheath | But in a restraunt as busy as ours, those issues meant hours of trouble. |
| 01:24.48 | maquis | well... with any luck, the regional manager noticed your manager's incompetence |
| 01:27.11 | mheath | The paper system was all mine |
| 01:27.14 | mheath | =D |
| 01:27.19 | maquis | :) |
| 01:33.49 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (n=emcnabb@66.243.51.75) |
| 03:38.51 | levi | Gah, 6 more pages to write. |
| 03:39.01 | levi | And then a bunch of editing to do. |
| 03:39.43 | RyanE | levi: still with the 'C Bashing'? :) |
| 03:39.57 | levi | It's not bashing, it's a reasoned argument. :) |
| 03:40.32 | levi | With all sorts of supporting documentation. |
| 03:40.40 | levi | Which is why it's taking so long. |
| 03:40.42 | RyanE | oh, I'm sure it is. |
| 03:40.59 | levi | I'm working on concurrency now. |
| 03:41.04 | RyanE | C is definitely past its prime, although it still has it's place. |
| 03:41.29 | levi | And working in points from a document by Hans Boehm about why threads cannot be implemented correctly as a library. |
| 03:41.44 | RyanE | Who is the audience for the paper? |
| 03:41.49 | RyanE | I'd be interested in reading it. |
| 03:41.59 | RyanE | esp. since I still like C. :) |
| 03:43.19 | levi | The intended audience is upper-level CS students and software engineers. |
| 03:43.59 | levi | maquis: It'll be roughly 20 pages when it's finished. |
| 03:44.01 | RyanE | maquis: Since I'm not in school, I have a bit more time to read papers from time to time. |
| 03:44.14 | RyanE | asking you to read a paper right before / during / after finals isn't the best idea. |
| 03:44.17 | RyanE | :) |
| 03:44.25 | levi | maquis: I'd prefer to make it shorter, but alas, I did not set the assignment requirements. |
| 03:44.44 | maquis | RyanE: true... although it might be more fun than writing the paper i'm working on |
| 03:44.52 | levi | It's double-spaced, though, so it's not really super-long. |
| 03:44.52 | maquis | unfortunately, the paper's due tomorrow |
| 03:45.04 | *** join/#utah mrpull-lt (n=mrpull-l@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:45.39 | maquis | i thought it was insanely long |
| 03:51.54 | levi | My wireless seems to drop out occasionally when I've been using it on my laptop for a while. |
| 03:53.46 | levi | Woo, Erasure covers of Abba songs. |
| 03:54.28 | RyanE | levi: where? I could use another Christmas gift for the wife. |
| 03:54.44 | Tene | anyone else go to the First Presidency Devotional? |
| 03:54.48 | RyanE | she really enjoyed Mama Mia! in Vegas last January. |
| 03:54.56 | RyanE | Tene: no, but the news reports are interesting. |
| 03:55.01 | levi | RyanE: On my hard drive. But it's available on the CD called Abba-Esque. |
| 03:55.14 | RyanE | levi: thanks. |
| 03:55.14 | Tene | Yeah, some lady tried to announce her love for President Faust. |
| 03:55.34 | RyanE | I haven't watched it yet, but it's on the MythTV box. |
| 03:55.43 | levi | RyanE: We went to see Mama Mia! a couple of weeks ago at the Capitol Theater. It was fun. |
| 03:55.47 | Tene | didn't get on the broadcast, I think |
| 03:55.52 | RyanE | dang |
| 03:56.04 | levi | Tene: Just some random woman? How'd she try to do it? |
| 03:56.21 | Tene | she was dragged off right before Pres. Hinkley started talking |
| 03:56.38 | Tene | levi: she went up past the ropes and such and started talking really loudly |
| 03:57.06 | RyanE | Tene: were you there? |
| 03:57.10 | Tene | yeah |
| 03:57.24 | Tene | way up in the balcony |
| 03:57.37 | levi | How bizarre. |
| 03:58.52 | levi | RyanE: Abba-esque isn't even too expensive. Only 4 songs, though: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000000WZ9/ |
| 03:58.58 | RyanE | not as bizarre as the guy who threatened to set off a bomb when Pres. Hunter was speaking at a BYU devotional. |
| 03:59.25 | Tene | what was that like? |
| 04:00.06 | mrpull-lt | RyanE: i remember going to basketball games and having the PA guy advise everybody to look under their chairs and report any suspicious devices |
| 04:00.16 | mrpull-lt | they did that for quite some time after that incident |
| 04:00.24 | RyanE | mrpull-it: I also remember that |
| 04:00.55 | RyanE | I don't remember much about it except that the entire crowd started singing "We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet" |
| 04:01.08 | mrpull-lt | I didn't witness that event, but I laughed when i heard that pres. hunter joked about it. |
| 04:01.19 | RyanE | and drowned out the crazy guy |
| 04:01.23 | RyanE | then security rushed him |
| 04:01.33 | mrpull-lt | something like "we all encounter adversity in our lives.... like we just witnessed..." |
| 04:01.50 | mrpull-lt | and he went on to read the rest of his talk |
| 04:01.55 | RyanE | yep. |
| 04:02.19 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wade@65.73.113.199) |
| 04:02.23 | RyanE | back in a bit... |
| 04:02.37 | RyanE | (like you really care, but I like to pretend... :) |
| 04:02.39 | levi | RyanE: Erasure's cover of Take a Chance on Me is a must-have, but the other tracks are great too. |
| 04:02.49 | RyanE | levi: thanks for the pointer. |
| 04:02.58 | RyanE | have to get presents from each child for my wife. |
| 04:03.04 | RyanE | took care of mine for her. |
| 04:09.41 | levi | Awesome, this textbook has a quote from the Neverending Story in a chapter header. :) |
| 04:18.36 | maquis | ~hug LaTeX |
| 04:18.37 | ibot | ACTION hugs LaTeX |
| 04:19.11 | maquis | i type my paper up, run one command, and it comes out looking all beautiful-ish |
| 04:20.30 | mrpull-lt | ~hug WYSIWYG editors since 1995 :-) |
| 04:20.31 | ibot | ACTION hugs WYSIWYG editors since 1995 :-) |
| 04:20.42 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 04:21.12 | findlay | is anyone looking at their irc session right now? |
| 04:21.17 | maquis | findlay: yup |
| 04:21.23 | findlay | yay |
| 04:21.30 | findlay | ~congratuate maquis |
| 04:21.37 | findlay | ~congratulate maquis |
| 04:21.39 | ibot | ACTION congratulates maquis on being a new owner of a $500 brick. |
| 04:22.10 | maquis | ~buckybot findlay |
| 04:22.35 | maquis | hmmm... nobody's written that one yet? hmm... going to have to stick that on my todo list |
| 04:22.44 | findlay | maquis: in my spam box jut now I saw one spam whose subject was: "Looking for cheap high quality software?" |
| 04:22.52 | maquis | findlay: mmk |
| 04:23.10 | findlay | my impression of course was, "No thanks, I already run Gentoo" |
| 04:23.26 | maquis | ok |
| 04:24.01 | findlay | or rather, I've got a root partition full of "cheap high quality software" (: |
| 04:24.42 | findlay | something tells me though that they weren't aiming to sell me ubuntu iso's |
| 04:24.51 | maquis | haha |
| 04:24.52 | findlay | maquis: it's supposed to be funny |
| 04:26.46 | maquis | but it wouldn't've been funny |
| 04:26.50 | mrpull-lt | whooo Jazz win on the road |
| 04:28.56 | findlbot | maquis: nope |
| 04:29.20 | findlbot | you're talking to a real, live person. Sun Dec 4 21:29:59 MST 2005 |
| 04:29.25 | levi | Lock-based concurrency abstractions are non-composable! |
| 04:30.04 | mrpull-lt | levi: what does c provide that another language doesn't do better? maybe that would be a shorter paper :) |
| 04:30.32 | levi | mrpull-lt: It would indeed be shorter. Too short to use for this assignment. |
| 04:30.45 | findlay | the name for one thing, there's no possible way to make a buzz out of `C' |
| 04:30.46 | maquis | ~buckybot findlay |
| 04:30.47 | ibot | ACTION insults findlay relentlessly, in order to make himself feel better |
| 04:30.56 | maquis | hmmm... |
| 04:31.08 | maquis | that doesn't get the full value of buckybot |
| 04:31.10 | levi | mrpull-lt: I think it's pretty much limited to pervasive compiler support. |
| 04:31.32 | findlay | posix, libc, kernel though |
| 04:31.36 | findlay | that's all C |
| 04:31.46 | findlay | well, except for posix (: |
| 04:32.13 | levi | The fact that they are written in C does not make C superior. Other languages can call C functions just fine, if they have mechanisms to do so. |
| 04:32.34 | maquis | ~buckybot findlay |
| 04:32.36 | ibot | findlay: you're a stupid idiot, and I can tell you that all I want, but if you say anything mean to me, I'll start crying and insulting everything I can, because you're discriminating against me! |
| 04:32.49 | maquis | that's a bit more bucky-ish |
| 04:32.50 | findlay | true. I was trying to substatiate your point of compiler ubiquity |
| 04:33.11 | levi | The old Macintosh system had Pascal calling conventions, yet you could write programs in C on it. |
| 04:33.51 | findlay | levi: what language do you propose to eradicate C with, if that's your purpose? |
| 04:34.19 | findlay | in which languages is it wise to write a kernel in? |
| 04:34.20 | levi | findlay: It's not my purpose to eradicate C with any particular language. My purpose is to get people to seriously consider other languages before C. |
| 04:34.24 | jlp | levi: writing C programs on the old MacOS (circa 1985 or so) was incredibly painful |
| 04:35.00 | levi | jlp: It may have been, which does not speak well for C, but it was possible. |
| 04:35.03 | findlay | ibot: whatever |
| 04:35.05 | ibot | methinks whatever is the last word of the loser of an argument |
| 04:35.14 | jlp | you had to convert all of your strings to Pascal strings before calling any library functions (and everything display, storage, etc. related required library functions) |
| 04:35.16 | findlay | ibot: nuh-uh |
| 04:35.59 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@207-224-198-233.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 04:36.09 | jlp | C is a good balance between capability (being able to twiddle the bits directly) and ease of use. of course, with it's strength comes it's weakness: it's easy to screw up :-) |
| 04:36.56 | levi | jlp: I don't think it's a good balance, though. |
| 04:37.01 | jlp | I write mostly in Perl these days.... I did get my C stick out a couple of months ago to hack up something to watch for mac address reuse that was easier to do with C |
| 04:37.32 | jlp | not that it couldn't be done with Perl, of course, but it was easier to code up in C |
| 04:37.58 | levi | Certainly it's better suited for some things than Perl is, but for significant software development it's got way too many flaws. |
| 04:38.40 | findlay | levi: I think you can make that argument about most languages |
| 04:38.48 | findlay | depends on who's arguing |
| 04:38.49 | levi | jlp: I used to hang out all the time with a Mac software developer, and he coded quite a bit in C. |
| 04:39.16 | jlp | the biggest project I worked on in C was a spread sheet program... >100k lines of code. would have been hard to do in any other language |
| 04:39.42 | jlp | yeah, I'm sure they fixed all those library compatibility problems in later compiler releases |
| 04:39.47 | maquis | jlp: that sounds like a cool project! |
| 04:39.49 | levi | jlp: Why would it have been hard to do in, say, Modula-2? |
| 04:40.30 | levi | I don't see why a spreadsheet app would see any benefit at all from C. |
| 04:41.06 | jlp | have you ever worked in Modula-2? |
| 04:41.09 | mrpull-lt | 2 News on KJZZ said the woman at the devotional had some scripture translations to share with Pres Hinkley |
| 04:41.36 | levi | No, but I've known people who have. |
| 04:41.40 | jlp | levi: main reason we couldn't use Mod-2 was that it had to run on about 30 different Unix variants |
| 04:41.50 | jlp | for most of which a modula-2 compiler was not available |
| 04:42.10 | levi | Well, thus my point earlier that C's main advantage is its pervasiveness. |
| 04:42.16 | Tene | mrpull-lt: possibly. She *was* carrying a stack of papers. |
| 04:42.21 | jlp | C was always available for Unix... of course, the C libraries were not necessarily compatible, so we had to code up our own, but at least we could do it |
| 04:42.47 | findlay | mrpull-lt: who is this woman at the devotional? |
| 04:42.48 | Tene | jlp: out of curiousity, what made C the best choice for the spreadsheet app? |
| 04:42.49 | levi | Although, with languages that compile to C, actually writing code in C is not necessary to run on platforms supported by C. |
| 04:42.58 | jlp | Tene: portability |
| 04:43.05 | Tene | kk |
| 04:43.17 | jlp | and bit-twiddling capability |
| 04:43.27 | Tene | kk |
| 04:43.29 | jlp | but portability was probably the most important |
| 04:43.36 | mrpull-lt | findlay: she was taken away by security. tene was there. |
| 04:44.34 | findlay | my brother was there |
| 04:44.41 | findlay | but he didn't have any papers |
| 04:45.28 | jlp | Tene: google for "UltraCalc II" for some historical e-mails... not related to BBC Soft's ROM-based spreadsheet, though, this was the Olympus Software product |
| 04:47.20 | findlay | was just there to play in the contrabass section |
| 04:49.07 | Tene | They made a version of contra for fish? |
| 04:49.53 | findlay | no, its the only extant member of the viol family |
| 04:50.20 | Tene | There's a version for voles too? |
| 04:50.22 | Tene | o.O |
| 04:50.25 | findlay | for some reason a violin the size of a contrabass viol would not sound as good. I don't remember why |
| 04:52.34 | findlay | wikipedia seems to have a pretty good article on the subject |
| 04:52.36 | findlay | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viol |
| 04:56.19 | levi | Anyway, the main reason I'm writing this paper (aside from the assignment it will fulfil) is to get people to take the plunge and try using some other language besides C. I have no illusions that it will actually make a difference, but hey, I have to write about something, and this is something I have strong feelings about. |
| 04:56.46 | mheath | levi: What are you arguing is the best alternative to C? |
| 04:57.09 | levi | mheath: I'm not arguing for any particular alternative, just that there is likely to be one, and it may not be the same one for every problem. |
| 04:57.13 | jlp | hopefully, levi is arguing for choosing the best tool for the job, which may not be C depending on what you're doing |
| 04:57.23 | mheath | levi: Well, let me ask you this - what is your language of choice? |
| 04:58.11 | findlay | Hebrew, I think might be levi's favorite language |
| 04:58.29 | levi | jlp: Indeed, and the main gist of it is that C is likely not the best tool for many new software projects these days due to advances in programming languages and changing computing environments. |
| 04:58.35 | RyanE | ooh! Guessing game! lisp. |
| 04:58.55 | mrpull-lt | ~praise Mehmet Okur's unibrow |
| 04:58.56 | ibot | All hail Mehmet Okur's unibrow! |
| 04:59.01 | levi | mheath: I'm currently fond of the Lisp family of languages, but not necessarily for everything. |
| 04:59.09 | findlay | it's so full of symbolism and multilayered meanings, that any compiler would develop some kind of mental disorder after long |
| 04:59.28 | jlp | levi: I would have to agree with you on that. |
| 04:59.51 | RyanE | I'm fond of C, but I suspect it's mainly because that's what I still think in. |
| 04:59.59 | jlp | (on C not necessarily being the best choice, not on lisp-like languages being great :-) |
| 05:00.15 | RyanE | but I'm liking the look of Ruby. |
| 05:00.25 | levi | jlp: That's what I figured you meant. Not too many people seem to agree with my lisp-language preference. |
| 05:00.32 | jlp | although I'm really only familiar with emacs's version of lisp, which might not be a good sample |
| 05:00.34 | mheath | I've never used Lisp. I'm familiar with it's basic syntax (prantheses denote whitespace-sperated lists, first list item is function name, etc) |
| 05:00.43 | RyanE | I think Ruby is like 'Lisp for C idiots'. |
| 05:00.49 | levi | jlp: No, elisp really isn't a good example of a Lisp. |
| 05:01.05 | levi | jlp: Well, not a good example of a modern lisp, rather. |
| 05:01.13 | mheath | I've always kind of had the impression that its a very good language from a research point of view, but not really that useful from a globally accepeted point of view (though I've never really been sure why), which is why you don't see it used more |
| 05:01.48 | jlp | ever use APL? |
| 05:01.49 | levi | jlp: Since the development of Scheme, most Lisps have had lexical scoping, while elisp is stuck in the old dynamic scoping ways. |
| 05:02.03 | levi | I haven't used it, but I've known people who speak fondly of it, and it does sound interesting. |
| 05:02.05 | RyanE | Ch. 4 is recapping the Cody Judy / Howard W. Hunter thing. |
| 05:02.27 | jlp | APL is cool for doing certain things (matrix operations, specifically), but it is a bear to work with |
| 05:03.36 | jlp | Pascal, C, Fortran, etc. |
| 05:03.45 | mheath | jlp: Isn't Fortran nice for matrix operations? |
| 05:03.54 | mheath | I've never worked with Fortran much |
| 05:04.10 | levi | Common Lisp is actually less foreign than I thought it would be when I started learning it. |
| 05:04.10 | jlp | mheath: well, not entirely... try computing a dot product in fortran... it's a single operator in APL |
| 05:04.13 | mheath | I just remember looking at a syntax reference and seeing some really weird matrix related functions |
| 05:04.16 | RyanE | jlp: we had to do an APL assignment when I took CS330. It sure did make matrix math easy. |
| 05:04.37 | mheath | jlp: Ah. |
| 05:04.43 | jlp | RyanE: did you have an APL keyboard? |
| 05:04.46 | RyanE | nope |
| 05:04.52 | jlp | sucks, doesn't it? :-) |
| 05:04.53 | mheath | *shrug* All I know is my dad worked on missile guidance systems for the US Air Force... |
| 05:04.55 | RyanE | was on the IBM PC (the green screen one) |
| 05:04.56 | mheath | He used Fortran a lot |
| 05:05.11 | RyanE | we had a printed sheet that showed the symbols and the text to replace it with. |
| 05:05.12 | jlp | fortran was great for crunching numbers |
| 05:05.13 | mheath | I figured if it could compute things like that decently, it must be able to handle matrices pretty well |
| 05:05.19 | levi | Fortran is still great for crunching numbers. |
| 05:05.27 | jlp | true |
| 05:05.41 | mheath | Hmm |
| 05:05.42 | levi | Lots of people who buy supercomputing clusters buy Fortran compilers for them. |
| 05:06.10 | jlp | of course, they also buy bignum libraries to go with them |
| 05:06.11 | mheath | Never had this much lag when I'm still obviously connected |
| 05:06.12 | findlay | blas is pretty good for matrices |
| 05:06.32 | jlp | whoops, wife is calling. got to go to bed. thanks for the conversation, guys |
| 05:06.40 | levi | Seeya later, jlp. |
| 05:06.53 | mheath | I've been working with Java a lot lately |
| 05:06.58 | mheath | I used to despise the language... |
| 05:07.05 | mheath | But it's grown on me a lot |
| 05:07.28 | levi | I liked Java too, when I first learned it. |
| 05:07.44 | RyanE | I grew an instant dislike to Java. |
| 05:07.55 | levi | I don't like it so much anymore, but it's got definite advantages in some areas. |
| 05:08.09 | RyanE | Of course, that was version 1, which deprecated things about every 2 months. |
| 05:08.27 | RyanE | every time I tried to use a function, I'd find out it was deprecated. Very frustrating. |
| 05:08.43 | RyanE | and all that typing... :( |
| 05:08.53 | levi | Yeah, the typing was always annoying. |
| 05:08.53 | mheath | RyanE: JRE != Java :) |
| 05:09.11 | levi | For more than one sense of 'typing' ;) |
| 05:09.16 | mheath | Haha. |
| 05:09.16 | RyanE | mheath: it is when it changes every 2 months. |
| 05:09.25 | RyanE | levi: word. |
| 05:09.32 | maquis | i like the fact that java handles cleaning up memory, but when i use it, i miss the ability to use pointers and other such stuff |
| 05:09.40 | maquis | and malloc |
| 05:09.40 | mheath | RyanE: Thats like saying that C is GNU Libc, because GNU Libc is updated often. |
| 05:09.54 | RyanE | yeah, but libc is generally backwards-compatible. |
| 05:10.01 | RyanE | POSIX doesn't change out from under you. |
| 05:10.14 | RyanE | I can take an app I wrote 10 years ago in C, recompile it, and it works fine. |
| 05:10.15 | levi | mheath: Initially, it was impossible to use Java without Sun's JRE, so for all practical purposes they were part of the same thing. |
| 05:10.16 | mheath | RyanE: Java was a scary language back then |
| 05:10.27 | mheath | No official standards, really |
| 05:10.34 | RyanE | I couldn't compile an app I wrote a MONTH before in early Java... |
| 05:10.37 | mheath | They were playing it by ear, back then :) |
| 05:10.42 | RyanE | without getting warnings left and right. |
| 05:10.44 | maquis | and a lot of times I've found that in security class, my projects run in *significantly* less time than the projects written by friends who used java |
| 05:11.09 | levi | RyanE: C has had a lot of time to shake out inconsistencies, too. C programs were not terribly portable between unixes not too long ago. |
| 05:11.11 | RyanE | I also dislike servlets. compile / reload java web engine / test |
| 05:11.14 | mheath | Thats because they usde a virtual machine |
| 05:11.28 | RyanE | I know these things aren't issues anymore with Java, but I hold grudges. :) |
| 05:11.34 | maquis | granted, in some of the cases, it was due to the code... but in some cases, we did very similar code, and still ended up with different times |
| 05:11.42 | levi | Virtual machines are a good thing sometimes. |
| 05:11.51 | mheath | Not when you're looking for preformance |
| 05:11.58 | mheath | Or when you have a situation when they're just not needed :) |
| 05:12.03 | levi | Yes, sometimes when you're looking for performance. |
| 05:12.12 | maquis | (one of the girls had a java program that took > 5 minutes to run, when my program doing the same thing took < 5 seconds |
| 05:12.44 | mheath | Hey, it's pretty much the standard for cars to have a considerable amount of gas left when their gauge shows empty, right? |
| 05:12.48 | RyanE | mheath: in MANY cases, Java can run as fast as nearly any other language. Good Java code can beat Bad C code. |
| 05:12.51 | levi | maquis: I'm sure it was only doing 'the same thing' in a rather loose sense. |
| 05:12.59 | mheath | Not considerable, but enough for a few miles.. |
| 05:13.08 | RyanE | mheath: never assume... |
| 05:13.14 | levi | mheath: Yes, but it varies widely between car types just how much that is. |
| 05:13.25 | mheath | My car is just above the empty line |
| 05:13.35 | mheath | All I ahve to do is make it school, stay there for a few hours, then go to the gas station |
| 05:13.36 | levi | mheath: If there is an idiot light, and it is not on yet, then you can probably safely drive a few miles. |
| 05:13.40 | RyanE | for one of my cars, I actually ran it out of gas on purpose with a full gas can in the back, just to find out. |
| 05:13.46 | RyanE | levi: my idiot light is burned out. |
| 05:13.51 | RyanE | found out the hard way. |
| 05:13.59 | levi | My Jeep didn't have one. |
| 05:14.06 | mheath | levi: That light comes on just below the 1/4 mark |
| 05:14.11 | levi | And it would run out of gas shortly after hitting E. |
| 05:14.27 | levi | mheath: I wouldn't count on being able to drive very far, then. |
| 05:14.42 | RyanE | my '90 Nissan pickup goes past the empty 'tick', down to where the gauge cuts the 'E' in half. |
| 05:14.43 | levi | mheath: But you'll never know until you did what RyanE did. |
| 05:14.58 | mheath | levi: Well, do you think its an OK assumption that I could make it about 5 miles? |
| 05:15.02 | RyanE | and even then, I've run out of gas, knowing that... Doesnt' keep you from being stupid. |
| 05:15.20 | mheath | It's not on the E yet |
| 05:15.24 | mheath | Its almost there, though |
| 05:15.37 | RyanE | mheath: you roll the dice, you take your chances. You either make it, or not. |
| 05:15.41 | RyanE | deal with the consequences. |
| 05:15.48 | RyanE | we can't tell you, obviously. |
| 05:15.49 | levi | mheath: It's possible, and perhaps even likely, that you'll be able to drive 5 miles just fine. But don't ask me to make the judgement call for you. :) |
| 05:16.04 | mheath | Hmmm, we have a gas tank here |
| 05:16.05 | xbmodder_ | mheath: what car? |
| 05:16.24 | RyanE | always a good idea |
| 05:16.35 | mheath | xbmodder: My car. |
| 05:16.37 | levi | If you run out of gas within walking distance of a gas station, no harm is done. Just buy a gas can there and walk it back to the car. |
| 05:16.53 | mheath | levi: I'm strapped for cash right now |
| 05:16.58 | RyanE | yeah, but the smallest can will be > $6, because you HAVE to buy it... |
| 05:17.10 | mheath | I barely have enough to fill my gas tank halfway, let alone buy a gas can |
| 05:17.13 | RyanE | they don't loan anymore. They say 'liability issues', but I suspect it's so they can sell $6 cans. |
| 05:17.28 | mheath | Meh |
| 05:17.39 | mheath | I have an AAA membership |
| 05:17.49 | mheath | I can call them and they'll bring me a complementary gallon :) |
| 05:17.50 | RyanE | better to not run out of gas, than to wait for AAA |
| 05:18.52 | mheath | hmmm, 3 weeks until I leave! :) |
| 05:19.42 | levi | Back to an interesting topic... The Sun JVM has some pretty impressive JIT capabilities. And JIT compilation can bring reasonable performance to languages that are dynamic enough to make static analysis at compile time unfruitful. |
| 05:20.47 | mheath | Indeed. |
| 05:20.48 | levi | Witness the performance of Self, which is an extreme example of a dynamic language. |
| 05:21.05 | levi | And also provided the technology for the JVM. |
| 05:21.10 | mheath | Anyone know any nice places in the Ogden are that are hiring? |
| 05:21.53 | levi | Now I return to writing my arguments against pthreads. |
| 05:21.56 | xbmodder_ | Do you think a multi-platform RSS reader that can publish feeds as a WAP page is worth 30 bucks? |
| 05:24.35 | RyanE | xbmodder_: being I don't use an RSS reader, probably not. :) |
| 05:24.46 | maquis | levi: the important thing i learned about java from my friend's issue with her code going so slow is that in java, if you append a char to the end of a string, it has to create an entire new string and byte-by-byte copy the entire string over to the new string |
| 05:25.06 | mheath | ....... |
| 05:25.13 | maquis | i'm not sure what the ideal solution in java is, though |
| 05:25.16 | levi | maquis: Yes, Java strings are immutable. |
| 05:25.24 | mheath | Your friend needs to read the String class API |
| 05:26.01 | maquis | levi: how do you get around that? in C, i just malloc a char* that's one larger than whatever i want to have in there... but i don't know how to get around an issue like that in java |
| 05:26.42 | levi | maquis: I'm not entirely sure, either. My approach would probably depend on my larger goal. |
| 05:27.02 | mheath | Make a new String class |
| 05:27.19 | mheath | that uses an array of char's, or something... |
| 05:27.33 | mheath | Linkedlists would be ideal for inserts |
| 05:28.04 | maquis | my other friend was able to get around it, but she ended up having two separate copies of all the data, one of which was in a String, and the other was in an array of chars |
| 05:28.25 | RyanE | maquis: I think there are different classes... StringBuffer would be more efficient in that case. |
| 05:28.31 | maquis | i'm not sure if my friends just don't know java well enough, or if there really isn't a better way to do it |
| 05:28.45 | levi | maquis: I'm sure there are better ways to do it. |
| 05:29.32 | maquis | it just seems like the lack of pointers is a real problem in java, since it makes a number of things rather difficult |
| 05:29.40 | mheath | Yeah |
| 05:29.43 | mheath | The more I work with the JRE... |
| 05:29.47 | mheath | The less impressed I am with it |
| 05:29.50 | maquis | i like my char*s |
| 05:29.52 | mheath | Java as a language doesn't bug me |
| 05:30.04 | mheath | Theres just minor annoyances (such as these preformance issues for Strings) that annoy me |
| 05:30.11 | mheath | Erm |
| 05:30.20 | mheath | And there are minor redundancies that I find redundant ;) |
| 05:30.20 | RyanE | http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/java/strings.html |
| 05:30.22 | brac | [Strings/StringBuffers - what should I use when, and |
| 05:30.22 | brac | why?] |
| 05:30.29 | maquis | the only other thing i really don't like is that everything is so long... |
| 05:30.38 | mheath | I still like my solution more |
| 05:30.39 | maquis | ArrayOutOfBoundsException ??? |
| 05:30.47 | mheath | A custom string class that uses a linked list |
| 05:30.57 | mheath | It would be more efficient at inserts than a StringBuffer |
| 05:31.03 | levi | maquis: Throwing pointers around willy-nilly is a seriously dangerous programming practice. |
| 05:31.04 | mheath | And just as fast at appending |
| 05:31.39 | maquis | levi: i can imagine that throwing them around is problematic, but there are lots of times that they make things a lot easier |
| 05:32.04 | maquis | and one of these days, i need to make some sense of exceptions... |
| 05:32.04 | mheath | Hmmm |
| 05:32.21 | mheath | Stupid question, maybe someone could provide some insight for me |
| 05:32.33 | levi | maquis: I don't find them particularly compelling, myself. What do you think makes them easier? |
| 05:32.37 | mheath | I've only flown twice in my life, and they've always been nonstop flights |
| 05:32.43 | mheath | Whats the procedure for transfering planes? |
| 05:33.02 | RyanE | mheath: as you arrive at your transfer point, they generally will tell you what gate the departures are at. |
| 05:33.06 | RyanE | if you don't hear it, speak with a gate agent. |
| 05:33.11 | maquis | mheath: same airline for both parts? |
| 05:33.19 | mheath | maquis: Sort of |
| 05:33.22 | mheath | One is America West |
| 05:33.23 | RyanE | you go to that new gate (don't have to do security again, as you're in the 'secure part', check in at the new desk |
| 05:33.28 | RyanE | get on the plane. |
| 05:33.32 | mheath | the other is some small local airline "doing business as" america west |
| 05:33.46 | RyanE | mheath: what's your question. they make it pretty braindead easy. |
| 05:33.46 | mheath | RyanE: where/when do I get my boarding pass for the second leg? |
| 05:33.51 | maquis | mheath: when i had a transfer in boise on my way here, i just got off the first plane, and went over to the big screen that listed the departures, and found my gate |
| 05:33.59 | maquis | mheath: they should give it to you at the same time as the first |
| 05:34.01 | RyanE | you get all your boarding passes up front |
| 05:34.21 | maquis | mheath: and they'll check your baggage all the way through (although, whether or not it'll get all the way through is a different issue) |
| 05:34.22 | RyanE | but I generally check in at the second desk anyway, to see if they have better seats / etc. |
| 05:34.35 | mheath | Baggage scares me =\ |
| 05:34.53 | levi | mheath: It's really a no-brainer, unless they screw something up. I've had it happen before, but not in a long time. |
| 05:34.53 | mheath | Hopefully they count my training as military training |
| 05:35.03 | mheath | Because they waive most of the baggage requirements for military personel |
| 05:35.05 | RyanE | mheath: I like to use the SkyCaps. You drop your luggage at the curb, pay them a tip for your bags, and walk to the gate. |
| 05:35.09 | maquis | mheath: i've flown all my life, and many times with 3+ transfers, and my family has only lost luggage once |
| 05:35.21 | levi | mheath: And if they do screw something up, there's not much you can do about it, so there's no sense worrying about it beforehand. :) |
| 05:35.32 | maquis | it showed up the next day |
| 05:35.57 | maquis | and that was on a trip that had 4 transfers, including, as i recall, some changes in airline |
| 05:36.31 | mheath | You can only have 50 lbs of luggage with this airline... |
| 05:36.39 | mheath | *checked luggage |
| 05:36.42 | RyanE | mheath: total? |
| 05:36.46 | RyanE | probably small planes. |
| 05:36.52 | mheath | Nah |
| 05:36.57 | mheath | The first leg is on a large plane, I believe |
| 05:37.05 | maquis | mheath: put the heaviest stuff in your carryon... |
| 05:37.10 | RyanE | usually the 'DBA Sky West' are small planes. |
| 05:37.15 | mheath | The second (phoenix to flagstaff) is on a little turboprop propeller plane |
| 05:37.26 | RyanE | yeah, those can be fun. |
| 05:37.36 | RyanE | where fun == scary |
| 05:37.51 | maquis | i like little planes! |
| 05:37.59 | mheath | Are even small planes hooked up to one of those movable-tunnel terminals? |
| 05:38.06 | RyanE | turboprop from Boise to SLC was hair-raising. 4-5 foot drops due to turbulance. |
| 05:38.08 | maquis | mheath: not always |
| 05:38.20 | maquis | usually, at least in sea-tac, you get to go outside |
| 05:38.20 | maquis | :) |
| 05:38.30 | maquis | in walla walla too |
| 05:38.41 | maquis | but in some airports, you always go outside... |
| 05:38.44 | mheath | Phoenix is big enough that I doubt they'd do that... |
| 05:38.58 | mheath | But probably at Flagstaff |
| 05:39.09 | maquis | i know that in the san jose airport, at least when i was little, they didn't have the tunnels |
| 05:39.11 | mheath | Will they automatically transfer luggage, even to small planes, then? |
| 05:39.17 | maquis | mheath: they should |
| 05:39.26 | mheath | So, I don't have to worry about my luggage or anything.... |
| 05:39.27 | maquis | and even at phoenix, you may have to go outside for the small plane |
| 05:39.30 | mheath | I get my boarding passes upfront |
| 05:39.32 | maquis | mheath: no... no worries |
| 05:39.39 | mheath | and, after I get off the first plane, just go to the gate for the second |
| 05:39.42 | maquis | just don't give the first plane the wrong boarding pass |
| 05:39.55 | maquis | mheath: how much time do you have between flights? |
| 05:40.04 | mheath | 40 minutes |
| 05:40.04 | RyanE | maquis: they usually check, but good to be safe. :) |
| 05:40.14 | maquis | RyanE: sometimes they don't look at anything |
| 05:40.17 | maquis | mheath: that should be fine |
| 05:40.20 | mheath | First arrives at 3:12, second departs at 4:01 |
| 05:40.31 | RyanE | being they scan the barcode, you'd think it'd check the flight info somehow. |
| 05:40.45 | maquis | as long as your first plane isn't really late, you shouldn't have anything to worry about... and if it is late, they're really helpful about making sure they get you to the right place somehow |
| 05:40.59 | maquis | RyanE: true |
| 05:41.20 | mheath | maquis: Heh, that won't help much. I'm already getting to my destination a few hours later than I really should |
| 05:41.27 | mheath | It would have been about $100 more to arrive any earlier, though |
| 05:41.38 | maquis | mheath: well... if it happens, it happens, and there's nothing you can do about it |
| 05:41.46 | mheath | Checkin is supposed to be at 2PM |
| 05:41.55 | mheath | I won't get there until around 5:30 |
| 05:42.30 | maquis | mheath: and what are they doing between 2 and 5:30? |
| 05:42.38 | mheath | maquis: Flying. |
| 05:42.51 | mheath | I'm not leaving here until 1:34 |
| 05:43.02 | maquis | mheath: what are *they* doing during that time? |
| 05:43.13 | maquis | i figured you'd be flying... :) |
| 05:43.40 | mheath | Check in..... |
| 05:43.46 | mheath | getting issued linen |
| 05:43.48 | mheath | securying barracks |
| 05:43.51 | mheath | securing* |
| 05:44.02 | mheath | eating dinner... |
| 05:44.12 | mheath | etc |
| 05:44.21 | maquis | so, nothing essential that you'll miss.... (ie, no training that you're missing) |
| 05:44.26 | mheath | Nope |
| 05:44.50 | maquis | mheath: then no worries |
| 05:45.08 | mheath | I'm eagerly awating this training |
| 05:45.28 | mheath | 3 weeks! |
| 05:45.59 | maquis | mheath: good luck... and no smarting off to your superiors :) |
| 05:46.30 | mheath | Haha. |
| 05:46.46 | mheath | maquis: Indeed there is. |
| 05:46.48 | maquis | i'm sure they must be entertaining to watch |
| 05:46.57 | mheath | Mmmmhmmm. |
| 05:47.15 | mheath | I went to a boot camp for this thing in August...two weeks... |
| 05:47.24 | mheath | Much shorter than the Navy's bootcamp, but very similar |
| 05:47.31 | maquis | was there anyone there that never learned not to smart off? |
| 05:47.38 | mheath | maquis: Several |
| 05:47.44 | maquis | hehe |
| 05:48.22 | mheath | One word: pushups |
| 05:48.32 | mheath | Actually, pushups weren't that big of a thing |
| 05:48.51 | mheath | Mainly arm circles, situps.... |
| 05:48.52 | dna3e8 | I can't get mail (command line) to delete messages |
| 05:49.27 | maquis | on one of my flights here after thanksgiving, they were going over the safety instructions, and they started on the explanation of what to do in the case of an emergency landing in the ocean... and i muttered a comment asking where in the world we would have a marine evacuation on that leg of the trip |
| 05:49.32 | maquis | mheath: arm circles? |
| 05:49.36 | maquis | wazzat? |
| 05:49.39 | mheath | Yes |
| 05:49.42 | mheath | Arms straight out |
| 05:49.48 | mheath | move in small circles, in unison |
| 05:49.52 | mheath | Repeat 200 times |
| 05:49.52 | dna3e8 | you do linux? |
| 05:50.06 | maquis | dna3e8: yes... we do... |
| 05:50.27 | dna3e8 | I can't get mail (comand line) to delete messages |
| 05:50.28 | maquis | dna3e8: i'd guess maybe d will delete them? if not, try hitting '?' and see if it gives you anything |
| 05:50.36 | mheath | maquis: Getting dropped to do pushups, while your in the middle of a gravel road...isn't fun. |
| 05:50.44 | maquis | mheath: i can imagine! |
| 05:51.03 | maquis | mheath: did you end up doing many pushups? or was it mainly other people doing them? |
| 05:51.14 | mheath | maquis: they liked to drop us as a group |
| 05:51.20 | mheath | IE, one person messes up, we all get dropped |
| 05:51.24 | dna3e8 | it says delete should delete them, i delete them all , exit when I go bakc to mail they are still there |
| 05:51.27 | maquis | ick |
| 05:51.42 | maquis | dna3e8: what kind of messages? |
| 05:51.44 | RyanE | mheath: definitely helps the 'problem' want to shape up, I'd imagine. |
| 05:51.57 | dna3e8 | form cron |
| 05:52.09 | dna3e8 | N 1 root@linux.local Sat Dec 3 01:00 19/696 Cron <root@daves-linux> ru |
| 05:52.15 | mheath | RyanE: keep in mind this is a youth organization. It doesn't help when the 'problem' is a clueless 13 year old :) |
| 05:52.20 | RyanE | seems like the peer threat would be much more efficient than the threat from the superiors. |
| 05:52.25 | maquis | dna3e8: dunno... |
| 05:52.41 | RyanE | mheath: is there any OTHER kind of 13 year old? :) |
| 05:52.47 | mheath | I love my alarm clock |
| 05:52.51 | maquis | mheath: sounds like the rest of the team needs to have a chat with the 13-year-old |
| 05:53.09 | mheath | When you get woken up for two weeks by your CC storming into the room, banging a garbage can around... |
| 05:53.17 | mheath | You'd love the sound of your alarm clock too :) |
| 05:53.50 | mheath | Waking up sucked...meals sucked |
| 05:54.05 | maquis | mheath: and why do you want to do this? |
| 05:54.13 | maquis | i mean... you're saying that you're really excited |
| 05:54.20 | maquis | and yet, everything sucked last time... |
| 05:54.34 | mheath | maquis: That was boot camp. This is a really cool training. :) |
| 05:54.55 | maquis | mheath: ah... but you'll still have some of the same things, though... right? |
| 05:55.04 | RyanE | totally DIFFERENT kind of suckage. :) |
| 05:55.30 | maquis | i mean... you'll still have the clueless 13-year-olds that do stupid things, you'll probably wake up the same way, and the food will likely be the same, right? |
| 05:55.35 | dna3e8 | how do you tell mail to re-list all messages |
| 05:55.43 | maquis | dna3e8: huh? |
| 05:56.03 | mheath | maquis: Nah |
| 05:56.09 | maquis | mheath: ?? |
| 05:56.14 | dna3e8 | when I start mail it lists all the messages, how do i show that list after I delete 1 |
| 05:56.24 | mheath | maquis: I won't wake up the same way. |
| 05:56.29 | maquis | dna3e8: dunno... i don't use mail |
| 05:56.30 | mheath | The food will be the same |
| 05:56.41 | mheath | but it wasn't the food that sucked, it was the meals |
| 05:56.41 | maquis | dna3e8: does mutt work? |
| 05:56.54 | maquis | mheath: ?? |
| 05:57.06 | mheath | You'd hate not being able to say a word or look around |
| 05:57.07 | maquis | the meals sucked, but the food was ok |
| 05:57.16 | maquis | oh... that does suck |
| 05:57.21 | maquis | i wouldn't last very long at that |
| 05:57.32 | dna3e8 | maquis: mutt 'is not a command' |
| 05:57.34 | mheath | maquis: I'm now capable of staring at the person across the table at me for ages, without ever looking at them :D |
| 05:57.45 | maquis | dna3e8: sucky... |
| 05:57.51 | dna3e8 | list |
| 05:57.54 | maquis | dna3e8: does mail have a man-page? |
| 05:58.01 | maquis | or an info-page? |
| 05:58.03 | mheath | dna3e8: pine? |
| 05:58.40 | mheath | maquis: My daily routine at this training, for the first 3 days while we do the classroom parts.... |
| 05:58.48 | maquis | mmhmm |
| 05:58.53 | mheath | That will probably be something like..: |
| 05:59.26 | RyanE | maquis: mine just connected. |
| 05:59.48 | maquis | RyanE: mine won't do anything |
| 06:00.02 | mheath | Up at around 5:00, do an hour of PT, go to breakfast, spend a few minutes cleaning the barracks, go to classes for a few hours, break for lunch, go to classes for a few hours, go to dinner..do misc. stuff in the evening, sleep....repeat :) |
| 06:00.31 | maquis | mheath: and after the first 3 days? |
| 06:01.10 | mheath | maquis: Be living, sleeping, eating and working in 20-40 degree temperatures while we work together on a simulated reconnaisance mission for 3 days |
| 06:02.01 | maquis | mheath: ok... that does actually sound kinda interesting... |
| 06:02.16 | mheath | maquis: one sec, I'll link you to a short abstract of the training |
| 06:02.25 | maquis | mheath: do you get to use paintguns? |
| 06:02.37 | mheath | No |
| 06:02.47 | mheath | This is a bigger deal than just simulated firefights |
| 06:02.56 | mheath | http://www.navalseacadetstucson.com/abstract.html |
| 06:02.57 | brac | [abstract] |
| 06:03.01 | maquis | ah... but simulated firefights sound fun :) |
| 06:03.37 | mheath | Thats really short |
| 06:03.41 | mheath | but outlines the training |
| 06:04.30 | maquis | mheath: and what's your position in all this? ie, do you have a particular job that you'll be doing in the application part? |
| 06:04.46 | mheath | Don't know yet |
| 06:04.59 | mheath | I'm lower ranked, so I won't be in command of anyone/anything, probably. |
| 06:05.10 | dna3e8 | I was using 'exit' instead of 'q' so the changes in Mail didn't take effect... |
| 06:05.22 | maquis | dna3e8: ah... that makes sense |
| 06:05.33 | maquis | did you find that in the manpage or someplace like that? |
| 06:05.48 | dna3e8 | 8 pages in to it... |
| 06:05.54 | maquis | mheath: sounds interesting.... |
| 06:06.04 | maquis | dna3e8: cool stuff... that's the best way tolear |
| 06:06.05 | maquis | n |
| 06:06.06 | mheath | The CO keeps releasing minor details of the scenario for the application segment |
| 06:06.09 | RyanE | dna3e8: that's why always read page 8 of the man first. :) |
| 06:06.13 | mheath | "There are reports that a CH-53 Sea Stallion carrying a Special Ops unit returning from a successful covert mission has gone down in the area of Firebase Navajo. The crew must be rescued and all classified documents recovered. More information will be made available as it is cleared by Specwar." |
| 06:06.25 | mheath | It should be interesting. |
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| 06:07.04 | dna3e8 | RyanE: Thanks :) |
| 06:07.10 | maquis | mheath: nice |
| 06:07.48 | mheath | We'll have to everything from setting up and securing supply lines to get food, to locating the enemy, to dealing with them, to defending ourselves, etc :) |
| 06:11.27 | maquis | how do you plan to "deal with them" if you don't get paintguns? |
| 06:12.46 | maquis | RyanE: i still can't get on AIM |
| 06:13.02 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@158.91.201.220) |
| 06:14.33 | RyanE | maquis: maybe you're using a different server, or having network 'issues' that only affect AIM |
| 06:14.50 | RyanE | I don't usually connect to AIM, but when you said you couldn't, I did just to see... |
| 06:16.03 | maquis | RyanE: ah... interesting |
| 06:16.40 | RyanE | maquis: I don't usually connect to AIM because I can't tunnel it through SSH for some reason. I can tunnel MSN / Yahoo IM. When I try to tunnel AIM, it won't connect. |
| 06:17.33 | maquis | RyanE: do you tunnel msn/yahoo graphically using gaim? or do you use a command-line IM client? |
| 06:18.04 | RyanE | no, I just SSH tunnel the ports back to my house, so when I'm at work, my IM isn't. :) |
| 06:18.34 | RyanE | work doesn't disallow IM, but I'd rather not have it going over the clear from work. Call me paranoid. |
| 06:18.44 | Tene | You're paranoid. |
| 06:19.08 | RyanE | Tene: I'm not paranoid, it's just that everyone is out to get me. |
| 06:19.14 | maquis | RyanE: haha |
| 06:19.50 | Tene | RyanE: not everyone, just me. |
| 06:19.57 | maquis | RyanE: the reason i was asking is that i've always kinda wanted a command-line IM/jabber client that i could stick in screen and connect to remotely... |
| 06:20.15 | mheath | Everyone's going to think I'm headed to Iraq or something...At the airport with my duffel bag and ALICE pack... |
| 06:20.25 | RyanE | maquis: I think bitlbee will do that, no? |
| 06:20.44 | RyanE | of course, that's an IRC->IM gateway, but it should work the way you're thinking |
| 06:20.58 | RyanE | I want real IM because if it doesn't popup, I won't notice a chat coming up. |
| 06:21.04 | maquis | RyanE: dunno.. have'nt looked at it... |
| 06:21.07 | Tene | maquis: bitlbee, pork, naim... |
| 06:21.11 | Tene | bitlbee is nice |
| 06:22.55 | mheath | Not going to be nice, carrying my stuff all the way to the checkin counters from longterm parking |
| 06:23.17 | mheath | My seabag is going to be heavy, and my ALICE pack will be pretty hefty too |
| 06:25.35 | maquis | hmmm... |
| 06:25.36 | maquis | that's odd |
| 06:26.00 | maquis | some webpages are refusing to load, while others are working fine... (incuding some i haven't been to previously) |
| 06:26.09 | maquis | jabber works fine |
| 06:26.15 | maquis | aim won't connect |
| 06:26.43 | maquis | some will connect partially, but not finish |
| 06:28.23 | maquis | any idea what could cause that? |
| 06:31.54 | RyanE | maquis: I wonder if there's some other net issue... I can't get to google... |
| 06:32.03 | RyanE | ok, now it's back. |
| 06:33.41 | maquis | RyanE: gmail isn't reloading now |
| 06:33.51 | maquis | RyanE: can you get to red.com? |
| 06:33.59 | maquis | (i would mention purple, but it's hideously ugly) |
| 06:34.31 | maquis | seems to me like all the "real" pages are down... |
| 06:34.42 | maquis | i can get to all the stupid pages that people write because they have nothing better to do |
| 06:34.47 | maquis | but i can't get to the sites i actually need |
| 06:35.12 | maquis | ~nslookup dictionary.com |
| 06:35.13 | RyanE | red.com, sure |
| 06:35.32 | maquis | RyanE: yeah... i can get to all types of pages like that |
| 06:35.34 | Tene | but can you get here: http://tinyurl.com/6cr ? |
| 06:36.04 | maquis | Tene: nope |
| 06:36.11 | maquis | and it's not related to ip addressing... |
| 06:36.12 | RyanE | Tene: yep |
| 06:36.24 | maquis | because i can't get to the the ip address of dictionary.com |
| 06:36.29 | RyanE | maquis: that's probably the same as your AIM problem, obviously. |
| 06:36.46 | maquis | RyanE: yeah... i'm just confused as to what it is |
| 06:37.06 | maquis | i mean... my connection isn't down, per se... it's just that some pages are down |
| 06:37.25 | RyanE | and it's not a DNS issue, either. |
| 06:37.30 | maquis | yeah |
| 06:37.38 | RyanE | maybe some proxy is having 'issues'. |
| 06:39.14 | maquis | RyanE: traceroute won't take me past my router for anything, including sites i can actually get to |
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| 07:16.22 | levi | Yay, 3/4 of the way through page 17, and into my conclusion chapter. |
| 07:16.40 | levi | I think it's time to call it a night. |
| 07:16.47 | mheath | Probably a good idea. |
| 07:19.08 | levi | Man, I wish one of the people who have expressed interest in my eMac would just buy it already. |
| 07:20.12 | mheath | I wish I had the money for it |
| 07:20.21 | mheath | As it is, I'm struggling to sell my junk |
| 07:20.31 | mheath | No ones interested in my Sun or my laser printer, even |
| 07:20.40 | mheath | I'd like to sell them, considering how short on money I am, rather than donate them... |
| 07:21.00 | mheath | But if I don't get interest soon, my dad will force me to do the later. They're taking up too much space for his taste |
| 07:21.06 | levi | Tried craigslist? |
| 07:21.12 | levi | That's where I listed my eMac. |
| 07:21.39 | levi | Which has at least got me a few inquiries. |
| 08:01.54 | mheath | Hmm |
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| 15:59.40 | maquis | vontrapp: ping? |
| 16:06.26 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:06.58 | maquis | i'm glad that snopes claims that the armed killer-dolphins missing in the gulf of mexico is a hoax |
| 16:07.14 | maquis | if they hadn't announced that, i would've believed that rumor.... |
| 16:09.56 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_ (n=xbmodder@dsl092-012-130.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 16:10.15 | xbmodder_ | who here has speakeasy? |
| 16:11.07 | xbmodder_ | (other than me) |
| 16:15.21 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
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| 16:21.36 | tensai | maquis: no way, it's true. my friend said he knows a guy whose dad was killed by an attack dolphin during a training accident. |
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| 16:34.40 | maquis | tensai: nice :) |
| 16:36.03 | spr | maquis, clearly snopes is controlled by the government who is attempting to cover up the leak of their new super-army |
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| 16:54.12 | graphyx | ~tin-foil |
| 16:54.18 | graphyx | ~tinfoil |
| 17:01.33 | tensai | 419,430,400 bytes transferred in 0.642071 seconds (653,246,050 bytes/sec) |
| 17:01.45 | tensai | disk speeds of 600MB/s. so awesome. |
| 17:10.10 | graphyx | tensai: You are always there for me. I <3 u man!! |
| 17:22.48 | Newsome | Surplus sale Fri Dec 9th 7am |
| 17:30.36 | tensai | Newsome: you must really feel loved this week |
| 17:31.12 | Newsome | :) |
| 17:41.29 | graphyx | Newsome: That BYU? |
| 17:41.49 | Newsome | graphyx: yes |
| 17:42.20 | graphyx | DO they really have anything worthwhile there any more? |
| 17:44.14 | Newsome | not reaally sure. probably lots of the same old stuff |
| 17:44.40 | graphyx | Anyone know of a good way of doing the following? |
| 17:44.40 | jlp_work | I wonder if they have any old AT&T 7300s left any more |
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| 17:44.54 | graphyx | I just want a port that when connected to replies with a string and nothing else. |
| 17:45.00 | graphyx | But I want it to do that each time it is connected to. |
| 17:45.17 | graphyx | I was thinking of doing this in perl using a system call of netcat. But does anyone else have a better idea? |
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| 17:58.28 | Bradipo | graphyx: tcpserver |
| 17:59.23 | Bradipo | tcpserver -Hl0 0.0.0.0 1234 sh -c '/bin/echo Hello' |
| 18:00.54 | jlp_work | graphyx: do you care what string you get? |
| 18:01.33 | maquis | spr: naturally :) |
| 18:02.12 | maquis | Newsome: is 7am just for employees? and if so, what time can the rest of us show up? |
| 18:02.42 | jlp_work | graphyx: inetd used to always be configured for the "chargen" and "daytime" services by default (doesn't look like it is any more, though) |
| 18:08.35 | Uncle_Jesse | Newsome: I'm considering coming this Sat as well - need to verify w/ wife first though |
| 18:08.44 | Uncle_Jesse | I'll pitch in where needed too |
| 18:09.35 | tensai | graphyx: doing it in straight perl isn't too hard. there are examples in the man pages. |
| 18:09.39 | graphyx | Bradipo: Just what I wanted. |
| 18:09.55 | graphyx | I am just using it to do programing for banner checks on services. |
| 18:10.05 | graphyx | If I can simulate whatever banner I want it makes it a bit easier. |
| 18:10.06 | graphyx | Thanks. |
| 18:13.03 | graphyx | Bradipo: Is that a mainstream project? I can't find the source or a ebuild for gentoo. |
| 18:13.28 | graphyx | Is it part of a package ? |
| 18:14.07 | tensai | part of qmail it looks like |
| 18:14.23 | tensai | ~find tcpserver |
| 18:15.22 | tensai | or maybe not. just another djb tool. |
| 18:15.33 | tensai | http://cr.yp.to/ucspi-tcp.html |
| 18:17.39 | RyanE | graphyx: I wrote a simple server in C that might do what you want, when goozbach was asking about it a while back. It takes a filename as an argument, listens on a port, sends the filename contents back. |
| 18:17.55 | RyanE | s/filename/file |
| 18:18.01 | jlp_work | graphyx: perl -e 'use Socket; my = 2345; my = getprotobyname(tcp); socket(S, PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, ); setsockopt(S, SOL_SOCKET, SO_REUSEADDR, pack(l, 1)); bind(S, sockaddr_in(, INADDR_ANY)); listen(S, SOMAXCONN); my ; for (; = accept(C,S);close(C)) { print C the stringrn; }' |
| 18:18.12 | jlp_work | (based loosely on the perlipc man page) |
| 18:18.22 | jlp_work | arg, lost some quotes in there |
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| 18:20.07 | tensai | graphyx: oh yeah, so did I. mine is *way* better than RyanE's, though. http://www.zmonkey.org/~tensai/tmp/goozbach.c |
| 18:20.10 | *** join/#utah javert42_ (n=javert42@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:21.01 | jlp_work | graphyx: perl -e 'use Socket; my $port = 2345; my $proto = getprotobyname("tcp"); socket(S, PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, $proto); setsockopt(S, SOL_SOCKET, SO_REUSEADDR, pack("l", 1)); bind(S, sockaddr_in($proto, INADDR_ANY)); listen(S, SOMAXCONN); my $paddr; for (; $paddr = accept(C,S); close(C)) { print C "the string\r\n"; }' |
| 18:21.26 | jlp_work | nope, still not quite right... darn paster |
| 18:21.47 | jlp_work | perl -e 'use Socket; my $port = 2345; my $proto = getprotobyname("tcp"); socket(S, PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, $proto); setsockopt(S, SOL_SOCKET, SO_REUSEADDR, pack("l", 1)); bind(S, sockaddr_in($port, INADDR_ANY)); listen(S, SOMAXCONN); my $paddr; for (;$paddr = accept(C,S);close(C)) { print C "the string\r\n"; }' |
| 18:21.52 | jlp_work | that should do it |
| 18:22.11 | jlp_work | replace 2345 with your port number, "the string" with your string |
| 18:22.35 | RyanE | tensai: s/way/less/ |
| 18:22.35 | jlp_work | test by, e.g, telnet localhost 2345 |
| 18:23.12 | RyanE | tensai: besides, we both missed important things gooz asked for, and I finished first. :) |
| 18:23.46 | tensai | RyanE: goozbach just didn't know what he wanted |
| 18:24.04 | RyanE | tensai: no-one ever does. |
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| 18:24.18 | tensai | goozbach: speaking of which, I never got a breakfast sandwich of choosing |
| 18:24.24 | RyanE | I had a former boss who used to say that the customer NEVER knows what they like. They instantly know what they dislike, though. |
| 18:24.31 | tensai | s/of/of my/ |
| 18:24.46 | RyanE | so you have to present them with a bunch of semi-working crap that they dislike, until they narrow down to what they actually like. |
| 18:24.54 | jlp_work | RyanE: they can't describe it, but they know it when they see it |
| 18:24.56 | tensai | or what they dislike the least |
| 18:25.26 | RyanE | of course, that works really well on T&M projects, not so well on fixed-bid. |
| 18:26.08 | jlp_work | which is why you must insist on a hard spec for fixed-bid projects, along with a specified cost schedule for change requests |
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| 18:26.54 | RyanE | jlp_work: yep, however, then everything (the entire project) becomes a change request. |
| 18:27.07 | jlp_work | welcome to consulting :-) |
| 18:27.18 | RyanE | we ended up doing some fixed-bid, but generally the second project with a customer was always T&M |
| 18:27.34 | RyanE | because by then they trusted us, and didn't want to deal with a gazillion change requests. |
| 18:27.54 | RyanE | jlp_work: any on-the-side consulting I do now is T&M. I hate handling change requests. |
| 18:28.02 | jlp_work | yeah, me too |
| 18:28.14 | *** part/#utah mhatch (n=mhatch@66.239.25.96.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 18:28.27 | jlp_work | $150/hr, and it's done when the customer says it's done |
| 18:28.39 | jlp_work | I'm happy to change anything they want for $150/hr |
| 18:43.11 | Uncle_Jesse | ~\o I tried to discover...a little something to make me sweeter~\o |
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| 19:20.40 | tensai | hans, elg, whatever: actually, I have noticed juk skip once in a while (like just now) |
| 19:30.56 | graphyx | jlp_work: You rock for that perl stuff. way better than me. |
| 19:31.19 | jlp_work | graphyx: been doing it for a living for a few years now |
| 19:32.27 | jlp_work | but that code came pretty much out of the perlipc man page. I just stripped out the stuff you didn't need (like error checking :-) |
| 19:32.58 | graphyx | Nice. |
| 19:33.07 | graphyx | Is this part of it a typo? for (;? |
| 19:33.25 | graphyx | there is no close ). |
| 19:33.35 | graphyx | nvm. I found it. |
| 19:33.36 | jlp_work | the close) is after the close(C) |
| 19:33.36 | Tene | only lamers use closing )s. |
| 19:33.54 | graphyx | I split it on the ; and that made the for statement seem weird. |
| 19:34.24 | jlp_work | so you don't have to close(C) at the bottom of the loop. I wouldn't have written it that way myself (would have used while(1) and closed C at the bottom the loop) |
| 19:35.30 | jlp_work | I guess it's technically better if the accept fails, but since you're exiting anyway, it doesn't matter if you close(C) in that case |
| 19:36.48 | graphyx | Great thanks. |
| 19:37.02 | jlp_work | np |
| 19:37.03 | graphyx | That will give me a better test of a particular nasl. |
| 19:37.35 | graphyx | I maintain nessus nasls and if I can recreate the banner string for the server it gives me a better test without having to find a server to give the banner to me. |
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| 20:06.21 | kkkkk | http://www.jumbojoke.com/000558.html |
| 20:06.22 | brac | [G.I. Insurance] |
| 20:06.35 | *** join/#utah lars-ut (n=me@70.103.228.158) |
| 20:06.52 | lars-ut | ~emulate Miss Bitters |
| 20:07.23 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 20:07.55 | lars-ut | ~emulate Ms Bitters |
| 20:07.56 | ibot | The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions. |
| 20:08.47 | lars-ut | I recently received a CD with a magazine I subscribed to, Maximum PC. On the CD were some handy Windows drivers... |
| 20:09.15 | lars-ut | ATI Catalyst 5.1 drivers, nVidia 81.84 video drivers, Intel chipset drivers, nForce 4 AMD chipset drivers, VIA 4-in-1 drivers |
| 20:09.55 | lars-ut | Do you think I'd need to ask permission to redistribute them on CD? |
| 20:10.10 | Jayce^ | usually, yes |
| 20:10.19 | tensai | speaking of jokes, have you seen the lame text message service where they send you a joke for only 99 cents a day? |
| 20:10.28 | tensai | what a deal! |
| 20:10.31 | RyanE | lars-ut: not that you'll likely ever *get* permission. |
| 20:10.36 | lars-ut | Jayce: Do you think the publication asked permission to include them? |
| 20:10.59 | RyanE | tensai: I'll do it for $.98. |
| 20:11.46 | lars-ut | RyanE: Maybe I'll word the request as... I'll be including these if there is no objection from your company.. only slightly more polite. |
| 20:12.01 | RyanE | lars-ut: an opt-out, eh? |
| 20:12.12 | lars-ut | yup |
| 20:12.57 | tensai | at BYU we got permission from Netscape, Apple and Macromedia to distribute their browsers and plugins on CD |
| 20:13.15 | tensai | if you want to completely avoid legal trouble, I would recommend it. I would wager the magazine did. |
| 20:13.29 | lars-ut | I've gotten permission from 4 or 5 companies so far, I'm just being lazy |
| 20:13.40 | RyanE | magazines have legal teams that ensure that they *have* asked for permission. |
| 20:13.42 | lars-ut | I'll probably do it the right way |
| 20:13.57 | tensai | lars-ut: how large is your audience? |
| 20:14.09 | lars-ut | I sure like the sound of "Your failure to reply indicates your permission to include your company's software for redistribution. Have a nice day" |
| 20:14.30 | lars-ut | tensai: this is for the latest version of SSS, so it's important |
| 20:14.46 | lars-ut | I want to make sure the project is legitimate |
| 20:14.52 | tensai | I doubt such a request would actually mean any more than not asking at all |
| 20:14.54 | lars-ut | read: legal |
| 20:14.59 | RyanE | lars-ut: while it allows you to be 'lazy' about it, it probably holds about as much legal weight as "if I don't hear back from you in 12 hours, you agree that I can take your car" |
| 20:15.10 | lars-ut | lol |
| 20:15.45 | RyanE | oh, and by the way, sorry you never received that email. If you want to purchase your car back, it's only 120 easy payments of $300. |
| 20:16.25 | lars-ut | tensai or anybody else: If you have any leagal contacts from previous interactions feel free to pass them along |
| 20:16.41 | lars-ut | especially from large companies |
| 20:17.02 | tensai | lars-ut: sorry, it wasn't actually me who did it. I just burned the CDs. |
| 20:17.18 | RyanE | have you searched to see what their redistribution policy is for the driver on the companies' websites? It's possible that they may have blanket redistribution policies in place for drivers. |
| 20:17.45 | RyanE | ok, that was probably fantasy-land. sorry. |
| 20:18.03 | tensai | graphyx: eek. I'm being corrupted. I have 2 new messages in one folder and 3 in another. I saw that and thought "ooh, nice. I can build a city". |
| 20:18.19 | tensai | graphyx: took me a bit to realize I'm not playing Pioneers |
| 20:18.57 | lars-ut | RyanE: I have not, driver inclusion is a new idea. I've only checked redistribution for software apps until now. MS, ATI, nVidia, Intel, AMD, VIA are new entities to deal with for me on this. |
| 20:21.25 | RyanE | lars-ut: how are you going to decide which drivers to include? I mean, nvidia alone must have 10-20 windows drivers for various hardware. |
| 20:21.49 | lars-ut | I'm just including what I mentioned above |
| 20:21.59 | RyanE | I'd be a bit concerned that by including drivers on the SSS CD, you're likely to either confuse people, or help windows newbies screw up their machines by installing the wrong drivers. |
| 20:22.07 | lars-ut | I'm not willing to increase the scope beyond that. |
| 20:22.48 | *** join/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 20:22.54 | lars-ut | RyanE: There will be a 'Easter Egg' or advanced feature to access them |
| 20:23.00 | RyanE | aha |
| 20:23.35 | lars-ut | And they won't likely won't be in the last 2005 release |
| 20:23.49 | lars-ut | unless I include them w/o a UI feature, which is possible |
| 20:24.03 | lars-ut | depends on the legal response |
| 20:24.05 | lars-ut | brb |
| 20:56.50 | graphyx | tensai: That's really really really bad. You had me seriously laughing out loud at that one. |
| 21:00.03 | levi | tensai: Pioneers? Is that the Mormon version of Settlers of Catan? |
| 21:00.21 | graphyx | levi: Settlers of Zarahemla is the Mormon knock-off |
| 21:00.22 | RyanE | levi: it's the version without a trademarked name |
| 21:00.30 | graphyx | Pioneers is the OSS knock-off |
| 21:00.34 | levi | Ahh, OK. |
| 21:00.38 | graphyx | get it straight. ;) |
| 21:00.46 | levi | Was it formerly known as gnocatan? |
| 21:00.50 | RyanE | yep |
| 21:00.55 | levi | Ahh, okay. |
| 21:02.10 | levi | Well, I finally got my O2 sensor replaced and my OBD2 codes cleared. Now I just have to wait for the stupid computer to perform its stupid emissions systems checks before I can do my inspection. |
| 21:04.07 | graphyx | Levi: did my suggestion help any? |
| 21:04.25 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_ (n=xbmodder@dsl092-012-130.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 21:05.13 | levi | graphyx: Sort of. I couldn't get it out myself, I had to have my mechanic brother-in-law come help out. The threads were a bit mangled, and he had to clean them up with a nifty little tool after he finally got it out. |
| 21:05.38 | levi | graphyx: It was really, really stuck in there. |
| 21:06.01 | graphyx | ouch. GOod to have those mechanic people. |
| 21:06.05 | levi | I used some anti-seize compound when I installed the new one. Hopefully that will make it easier to fix in the future, if it fails again. |
| 21:06.44 | graphyx | Levi: Lets hope that it doesn't need replacing again. |
| 21:06.56 | levi | Indeed. |
| 21:11.34 | jlp_work | levi: good move with the antiseize gunk |
| 21:11.38 | jlp_work | I love that sutff |
| 21:11.50 | levi | Yeah, I've got it on my spark plugs, too. |
| 21:12.13 | levi | On my other car, that is. Haven't changed them on the car that had the O2 sensor problem. |
| 21:12.18 | jlp_work | brake system parts are where I use most of mine |
| 21:12.36 | jlp_work | a little on the lug nuts when you pull the wheel makes it a lot easier next time |
| 21:12.55 | jlp_work | with plugs you have to be careful not to lube up the whole threaded area |
| 21:13.07 | graphyx | jlp_work: I had to change the breaks on an old VW Bug. |
| 21:13.14 | jlp_work | you don't want any of that stuff actually getting into the cylinders |
| 21:13.25 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 21:13.52 | graphyx | The bolts were on so tight that I had to put on a cheater bar on the end of the wrench and then use a jack to proper up the end of that. It ended up lifting up the car 9 inches prior to the bolt breaking lose. |
| 21:14.23 | jsmith | graphyx: Good heavens... |
| 21:14.35 | jlp_work | fun fun fun |
| 21:14.40 | levi | I'm surprised the bolts didn't just shear off. |
| 21:14.43 | RyanE | I've broken a wheel lug before, attempting to remove the lug nut. |
| 21:15.10 | RyanE | using a X tire iron and my bare hands. |
| 21:15.11 | graphyx | levi: I was young. It would have served me right if they had. |
| 21:15.25 | RyanE | stupid tinkertoy car parts. |
| 21:16.12 | levi | Perhaps it had been previously damaged. |
| 21:16.50 | RyanE | likely already weakened, but how do you tell that? |
| 21:16.59 | RyanE | I was exerting a lot of force. :) |
| 21:17.33 | graphyx | I think it was completely RyanE. |
| 21:17.38 | graphyx | He's a tough goon. |
| 21:17.44 | RyanE | hehe |
| 21:18.01 | RyanE | yeah, it's all that 5 kids frustration coming out. |
| 21:18.02 | jlp_work | speaking of brakes, my wife just called an the brake light and TCS light are on in my van :-( |
| 21:18.13 | graphyx | and when I say goon, I don't mean that he is someone's henchman. |
| 21:18.14 | RyanE | TCS? |
| 21:18.15 | graphyx | At least not yet. |
| 21:18.20 | jlp_work | traction control system |
| 21:18.41 | jlp_work | (it's part of the ABS, pulses the brakes when you have a wheel slipping while you are trying to accellerate) |
| 21:19.03 | jlp_work | I hate all that electronic crap |
| 21:19.43 | levi | Me too. |
| 21:20.23 | levi | My Miata has fun electronics in it. I replaced the factory computer with a programmable aftermarket one when I installed the turbo. |
| 21:22.37 | xbmodder_ | cool. |
| 21:23.17 | levi | It's currently got expired tags since I completely chewed up my rear tires and haven't wanted to spend the money to replace them. |
| 21:23.34 | levi | And it also has an exhaust leak at the manifold, I think, when it's cold. |
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| 21:25.15 | Bradipo | graphyx: tcpserver is part of ucspi-tcp. |
| 21:25.52 | graphyx | Bradipo: Nice. I thought it might have been but just used the script that jlp_work sent me. |
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| 21:27.12 | harleypig | Anyone know where I might find the source for ps? |
| 21:28.18 | tensai | apt-get source psutils |
| 21:28.35 | tensai | er, no. psmisc |
| 21:28.53 | graphyx | harleypig: I am sure it is on the redhat source cds. |
| 21:29.13 | tensai | er, no. let me try that one last time. http://procps.sourceforge.net/ |
| 21:29.15 | brac | [procps - Home Page] |
| 21:29.24 | harleypig | Sorry ... I've already got it installed. I need to figure out how its finding its information ... I was just looking for a code listing of it somewhere. |
| 21:29.31 | harleypig | tensai: That's what I'm looking for thanks. |
| 21:30.29 | elg | levi: what's the best ginger ale? |
| 21:30.41 | levi | elg: Depends on what you want in a ginger ale. |
| 21:31.10 | tensai | if you want one to clear your nasal passages there's a recipe on wikipedia |
| 21:31.44 | tensai | linked to, I guess. http://hcs.harvard.edu/~dins/history/gingerale.shtml |
| 21:31.44 | elg | well, mostly I want one that tastes good, I just remember a discussion about dry and wet and what not |
| 21:31.46 | graphyx | I think if you press on your fore head and upper lip alternatively that the rocking will also clear up your sineses. I read that online somewhere so it might not work. |
| 21:32.00 | elg | i'm sick, so it's for the stomach |
| 21:32.08 | graphyx | elg: I usually prefer my liquids well,, umm.. liquid? |
| 21:32.27 | elg | the ol' carbonation old wives tale, and ginger is purportedly good for upset stomach |
| 21:32.38 | elg | and ginger ale tastes better than this ginger tea stuff my wife has |
| 21:32.50 | tensai | graphyx: "dry" is because it was meant to be consumed with alcohol |
| 21:32.51 | levi | elg: A decent one that's fairly inexpensive is Vernor's. |
| 21:33.00 | elg | -lart ups |
| 21:33.03 | graphyx | When on my mission I would actually cut up ginger and add it to some recipe. |
| 21:33.20 | tensai | graphyx: but has a lot less flavor, thus it won't overpower the booze |
| 21:33.36 | levi | elg: I perfer Thomas Kemper's ginger ale, as it's a bit stronger in ginger flavor, but it's a bit more expensive. |
| 21:34.31 | levi | elg: If you want really freaking hot gingery stuff, you can't beat Blenheim ginger ale. |
| 21:34.47 | vontrapp | elg: you know that ginger stuff mama guernsey gave me once? |
| 21:34.55 | elg | no |
| 21:35.06 | elg | did it make you happy? |
| 21:35.10 | vontrapp | some mexican ginger beer something or other |
| 21:35.20 | vontrapp | erin thought it was gross that i drank the whole thing |
| 21:35.31 | vontrapp | she thought it too strong |
| 21:35.34 | elg | ah yes, ginger beer. had some of that on my mission |
| 21:35.40 | elg | pretty strong stuff. :) |
| 21:35.44 | vontrapp | yep |
| 21:36.00 | graphyx | Then in Italy there was this stuff called bitter. |
| 21:36.08 | levi | Anyway, Vernor's is a little less dry than Canada Dry and Schweppes, but not quite as sweet and gingery as Thomas Kemper, but easier to find and cheaper. Blenheim requires mail ordering, unless you've got a specialty soda shop around, so it's pretty darn expensive. |
| 21:36.18 | graphyx | It just a ginger drink with red food coloring. Quite strong. I enjoyed it after I got used to it. |
| 21:36.49 | elg | thanks |
| 21:37.08 | graphyx | levi: You have certainly done your homework on ginger ale. |
| 21:37.48 | levi | graphyx: I had a soda-nut friend who got me hooked on specialty sodas, mainly root beers and ginger ales. |
| 21:38.41 | levi | Blenheim's Ginger Ale is seriously wicked stuff. If you breathe while you're drinking, it will sear your nasal passages with gingery flames. |
| 21:38.41 | graphyx | levi: Well those are some good ones. I don't mind a soda now and then, but I try to stay away from it all. Since the sugar goes straight to my waistline. (waste line is almost an appropriate misspelling.) |
| 21:39.50 | xbmodder_ | yum. |
| 21:40.00 | xbmodder_ | who wanted the source to PS? |
| 21:40.54 | levi | graphyx: Specialty sodas actually /help/ with that. If you shun the cheap, easily available drinks and only buy expensive ones from specialty shops on occasion, you don't drink nearly as much! :) |
| 21:41.29 | levi | Oh, I've also had Cock'n'Bull ginger beer, which is avaialble in Albertson's here in the mixer section. It's actually fairly strong. I like it. |
| 21:41.30 | xbmodder_ | harleypig: hm |
| 21:41.37 | xbmodder_ | http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/procps-3.2.5.tar.gz |
| 21:41.38 | vontrapp | what are the chances of discovering the specs for a cell phone data port? |
| 21:41.56 | xbmodder_ | vontrapp: what cell phone? |
| 21:42.05 | vontrapp | motorolla i730 |
| 21:42.36 | xbmodder_ | doubtful. |
| 21:43.24 | harleypig | xbmodder_: thanks ... tensai pointed me to the project page on sourceforge |
| 21:44.05 | tensai | harleypig: in the debian README it notes that procps was forked (when I'm not sure). so it's possible your /bin/ps isn't exactly the same as that sf.net project. |
| 21:44.21 | xbmodder_ | harleypig: no problem.. For some reason SF.net's servers have been a little annoying recently. |
| 21:45.02 | harleypig | recently == 5 years |
| 21:45.29 | xbmodder_ | hehe. true dat. |
| 21:45.48 | tensai | ok, so not so recently then |
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| 22:28.20 | mheath | hmmm |
| 22:28.41 | mheath | hmmm |
| 22:28.44 | mheath | er |
| 22:30.02 | goozbach | fiasco? |
| 22:30.04 | goozbach | do tell |
| 22:30.57 | mheath | goozbach: I work at a restraunt. The main problem was that a technical glitch made our computers (we're entirely computer based....) quite worthless |
| 22:31.02 | mheath | None of the issues were my fauilt |
| 22:31.04 | mheath | *fault |
| 22:31.11 | mheath | I'm just worried they'll be unhappy with how I handled them |
| 22:31.21 | goozbach | meh |
| 22:31.23 | mheath | Particularly because our district manager showed up in the middle of it |
| 22:31.39 | goozbach | tell them to "Get a piece of fat, and slide off!" |
| 22:31.47 | RyanE | mheath: like you really care. You're out of there pretty soon, neh? |
| 22:31.47 | mheath | BRB |
| 22:31.52 | mheath | RyanE: Not really |
| 22:31.59 | mheath | 6.5 months |
| 22:32.43 | mheath | I've got to take my dad down to the auto shop, to pick up his porsche....bbiab |
| 22:35.18 | JoshH | maserati :P |
| 22:35.27 | goozbach | whatever |
| 22:35.39 | Newsome | when you own one, you can spell it however you'd like :) |
| 22:35.53 | goozbach | it's expensive, and when you can afford one, you'll not have to worry about spelling it either. :) |
| 22:37.48 | Newsome | "Gee. Thanks, mister." "I bought myself this really neat watch...It's a Rollex!" |
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| 22:37.51 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 22:38.23 | Jayce^ | Newsome, thanks for the penny... it was a .... (forgot the details) |
| 22:38.31 | Jayce^ | double-stamp, some year |
| 22:38.49 | Newsome | yup! |
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| 22:55.38 | mrpull- | Jayce^: you are the RT expert right? |
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| 23:22.48 | mheath | Why is it that the dry cleaners can't ever press my neckerchief correctly, even when I give them careful and specific instructions and details? |
| 23:26.07 | RyanE | mheath: I'd bet the person taking your order and the detailed instructions is NOT the person doing the work. |
| 23:26.29 | RyanE | and the person doing the work is unfamiliar with your neckerchief protocol. |
| 23:26.41 | RyanE | and/or doesn't care. |
| 23:27.29 | mheath | RyanE: No, she had a guy come from the back for me to talk to |
| 23:27.41 | mheath | Who, presumably, is the one who does the pressing |
| 23:27.45 | RyanE | I guess it'll have to remain a mystery |
| 23:27.52 | mheath | Its not a big problem |
| 23:27.53 | RyanE | mheath: dumb people |
| 23:27.59 | mheath | It's just that dry cleaners are very good at making creases |
| 23:28.04 | mheath | I can undo what they did, just not very nicely |
| 23:28.15 | RyanE | 'dumb people' is the answer to most of those types of questions. |
| 23:29.39 | mheath | and I'd love to have my neckerchief perfectly pressed, just once!@ |
| 23:29.43 | mheath | They rolled it too thickly again |
| 23:29.50 | mheath | Its way, WAY too thick |
| 23:30.05 | mheath | I can iron it out and roll it, but I'd love to have my neckerchief perfect...just for once... :( |
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| 23:30.24 | xbmodder_lappy | hey |
| 23:30.45 | mheath | It's supposed to be like....penny thickness |
| 23:30.55 | mheath | Well, a little bit bigger than a penny |
| 23:31.27 | mheath | (that is, the diameter of a penny) |
| 23:31.39 | mheath | They made it like.....two inches. |
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