| 00:05.49 | goozbach | I know screen very well why do you ask? |
| 00:06.47 | Jayce^ | harleypig has had a question he's been trying to get answered |
| 00:06.55 | RyanE | TimRiker: not sure if it's worth hauling laptop |
| 00:07.01 | RyanE | we shall see. |
| 00:07.04 | goozbach | harleypig: you want to see what's hapening in a screen window outside of a screen session? |
| 00:07.26 | tensai | any lvm experts in the house? I'm familiar with it but want to make sure I'm taking full advantage of it for a new system. |
| 00:07.34 | harleypig | I just need to grab the tty so I can debug a forking program |
| 00:07.52 | Newsome | hardcopy |
| 00:08.21 | goozbach | ohh |
| 00:08.27 | harleypig | Using perl -d program I know how to set $DB::fork_TTY or use DB::get_fork_TTY |
| 00:08.39 | goozbach | give me a bit |
| 00:08.54 | goozbach | I'll look into it |
| 00:09.14 | harleypig | and I can do open FH, "screen -t 'Forked Program $$'" but I need to set $DB::fork_TTY from the child process. |
| 00:09.15 | harleypig | ok |
| 00:25.10 | xbmodder | Newsome, so its possible he completely wastes a 119 dollar liscense of windows (which is worthless if I may add) |
| 00:25.49 | Newsome | all Windows licenses are worthless |
| 00:25.55 | Newsome | :) |
| 00:29.28 | *** part/#utah fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 00:32.50 | xbmodder | no... |
| 00:33.32 | xbmodder | windows server 2003 isn't.. that terminal server feature is nice |
| 00:38.38 | xbmodder | of course linux has had that... well as long as I can remember... |
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| 01:00.15 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 01:12.37 | goozbach | harleypig: you are able to fork to another screen window, correct? |
| 01:14.47 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 01:15.22 | elg | harleypig: doing a vim presentation, fun |
| 01:15.31 | elg | if you need to steal from my slides, you can |
| 01:15.52 | elg | as long as you profess the superiority of ruby, that is. |
| 01:16.03 | elg | *duck* |
| 01:19.37 | goozbach | harleypig: if you can get the child to give you it's PID the PPID should be it's shell, |
| 01:21.08 | goozbach | and the shell's terminal should be the process' |
| 01:21.58 | elg | goozbach: have you become king of the idlerpg hill yet? |
| 01:24.21 | harleypig | goozbach: I am ... and, while I can grab the pid of the child, I'm not sure what you mean ... as far as I can tell the tty is something like /dev/pts/## (usually in the low 20s) |
| 01:24.39 | harleypig | elg: That would be great |
| 01:24.43 | goozbach | it should |
| 01:24.50 | goozbach | be that is |
| 01:25.04 | elg | hans.fugal.net/vim |
| 01:25.06 | harleypig | but the pid is usually a 3 to 5 digit number. |
| 01:25.26 | goozbach | what info do you need again? |
| 01:25.59 | harleypig | elg: Just don't expect me to proclaim for ruby! :> Although I'll certainly make mention of you're site in my slides. |
| 01:26.11 | harleypig | goozbach: are you familiar with perl, and perl debugging? |
| 01:26.33 | goozbach | sorry, I'm on my treo... and I've only been interrupeted a few times while researching this |
| 01:26.42 | goozbach | hp: yes |
| 01:26.45 | harleypig | goozbach: No problem :> |
| 01:27.19 | harleypig | Ok ... I need to set $DB::fork_TTY = '/dev/pts/21' (e.g.) |
| 01:27.44 | *** part/#utah SpecialZ (n=Bob@c-24-2-73-75.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:27.55 | harleypig | I can use DB::get_fork_TTY to create a screen window, but I don't know how to grab the tty from the generated window. |
| 01:28.14 | goozbach | after the fork? or before? |
| 01:28.16 | harleypig | I've just checked ... the child prints $$ and it does not match what tty produces from the window. |
| 01:28.21 | harleypig | after the fork. |
| 01:29.09 | harleypig | elg: what was the name of the program that parsed that format? |
| 01:30.15 | elg | which format? |
| 01:30.25 | harleypig | sorry ... for the presentation notes. |
| 01:30.37 | elg | what format are they? |
| 01:30.42 | elg | probably ooimpress |
| 01:31.07 | harleypig | thanks. |
| 01:38.47 | xbmodder | Windows viruses mhmm. good. |
| 01:38.58 | xbmodder | not fun disinfecting windows boxes. |
| 01:39.03 | xbmodder | especially in a network. |
| 01:39.08 | xbmodder | with a network based virus |
| 01:39.18 | xbmodder | and you have a million other things to get to. |
| 01:39.20 | goozbach | harleypig: methinks the answer lies in the ps output |
| 01:41.18 | goozbach | pull the 6th field where the 2nd field matches the PID of your child |
| 01:41.39 | goozbach | of a ps -ef that is |
| 01:42.31 | harleypig | goozbach: ... |
| 01:43.33 | harleypig | my $tty = '/dev/' . `ps -ef | tr -s ' ' | cut -d ' ' -f 6` |
| 01:43.53 | harleypig | seems to do the trick ... except for the backticks... |
| 01:44.28 | harleypig | I hate to do two backtick calls in a child process (except ... I *am* debugging ...) |
| 01:45.43 | goozbach | I'm wworking on a perl way of doing it |
| 01:46.19 | goozbach | I shellify hard problems before I break out the big tools |
| 01:46.30 | harleypig | goozbach: oops ... that doesn't grep for 2nd field ... |
| 01:46.33 | harleypig | ah |
| 01:47.11 | goozbach | the HAS to be a simpler way |
| 01:47.41 | harleypig | my $tty = '/dev/' . `ps -ef | tr -s ' ' | cut -d ' ' -f 2,6 | grep $$` |
| 01:47.49 | harleypig | yeah ... that's what I'm thinking |
| 01:48.13 | goozbach | I used awk instead of grep+cut |
| 01:48.39 | harleypig | But it's still a backtick. |
| 01:48.49 | goozbach | yeah |
| 01:49.31 | goozbach | let me get back to thhe hotel and break out the laptop |
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| 02:01.28 | Hhhhh | heh |
| 02:01.34 | Hhhhh | this website is stupid: http://www.linuxsucks.org/ |
| 02:01.42 | Hhhhh | feel free to flame these morons |
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| 02:05.06 | TimRiker | anyone at the geek dinner? |
| 02:08.40 | maquis | Newsome: i have a bunch of ubuntu pressed cd sets |
| 02:15.16 | Hhhhh | what about a geek dinner? |
| 02:16.47 | tene | Impressive. |
| 02:17.03 | tene | unless Hhhhh is very very small, I guess... |
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| 02:39.03 | xbmodder_lappy | ah, dang. |
| 02:39.56 | xbmodder_lappy | My computer failed (with a month of work on it) and it was about 15 hours before I turned it in. |
| 02:40.07 | xbmodder_lappy | The backups I had were dead too. |
| 02:40.16 | xbmodder_lappy | corrupted :( |
| 02:40.27 | xbmodder_lappy | before I was supposed to. |
| 03:05.11 | *** join/#utah graphyx_home (n=mike@c-67-169-246-4.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:05.32 | graphyx_home | Anyone want to try out pioneers with me? |
| 03:06.42 | tensai | graphyx_home: I'm up for it |
| 03:06.56 | tensai | was just playing, actually |
| 03:08.38 | xbmodder_lappy | pioneers? Is that like the oregon trail? |
| 03:11.46 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: i believe it's like settlers of catan |
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| 03:16.08 | xbmodder_lappy | cool, so Is it a computerized network-compatible version for linux? |
| 03:16.39 | graphyx_home | yes |
| 03:18.06 | xbmodder_lappy | URL? |
| 03:19.08 | graphyx_home | try emerge pio |
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| 03:25.49 | *** join/#utah colera (n=colera@monsters.cs.byu.edu) |
| 03:27.57 | xbmodder_lappy | graphyx_home, thank you sir |
| 03:28.00 | xbmodder_lappy | ~rlart |
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| 03:49.46 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 03:52.53 | vontrapp | is there anythingelse like nx? |
| 03:53.40 | vontrapp | attach/detach windows |
| 03:54.44 | xbmodder_lappy | VNC |
| 03:54.48 | xbmodder_lappy | remote desktop |
| 03:54.57 | *** join/#utah graphyx_home (n=mike@c-67-169-246-4.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
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| 04:15.13 | xbmodder_lappy | I wish crystal meth producers/users would stop it! |
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| 04:19.16 | graphyx_home | you really should offer to trade before just taking the 4:1 |
| 04:19.26 | graphyx_home | Cause if you can trade 3:1 you are up one card. |
| 04:19.39 | xbmodder_lappy | ? |
| 04:20.18 | *** join/#utah colera_ (n=colera@monsters.cs.byu.edu) |
| 04:21.31 | *** topic/#utah by TimRiker -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feeds | if you're looking to donate an old computer, check out stuporglue.org |
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| 04:31.24 | graphyx_home | ping |
| 04:41.00 | xbmodder_lappy | pong |
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| 04:45.18 | graphyx_home | ok anyone for a game of pioneers? |
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| 04:52.42 | xbmodder_lappy | Since when has it not been the hardware manufacterers responsibility to develop drivers for their hardware? |
| 04:53.04 | maquis | for linux? they don't care whether linux has drivers |
| 04:53.25 | mrpull-x | xbmodder_lappy: here is an idea. don't buy HW from a vendor that doesn't support it. |
| 04:53.36 | maquis | but at the same time, if you reverse engineer the windows driver, or anything like that, they'll sue you if they feel like it |
| 04:53.49 | maquis | despite the fact that it's stupid to do so... |
| 04:54.12 | maquis | mrpull-x: true... but sometimes that's hard |
| 04:54.22 | mrpull-x | vote with your dollars |
| 04:54.45 | xbmodder_lappy | mrpull-x, there are some things there aren't too many manufacters out there for. |
| 04:55.05 | mrpull-x | xbmodder_lappy: like? |
| 04:55.11 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: what are you trying to find a driver for? |
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| 06:10.43 | xbmodder | not to self: don't try to google bomb teacher |
| 06:13.15 | *** join/#utah Lone_Wanderer (n=chatzill@204.14.22.8) |
| 06:14.07 | Lone_Wanderer | Is anyone here familiar with making a dvd play on a windows box? |
| 06:14.30 | xbmodder | Lone_Wanderer, i think mplayer does that |
| 06:14.36 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 06:14.41 | xbmodder | happy world aids day! |
| 06:14.50 | xbmodder | i think... |
| 06:15.43 | xbmodder | http://ftp5.mplayerhq.hu/mplayer/releases/win32/MPlayer-mingw32-dev-CVS-050928.zip < |
| 06:16.34 | Lone_Wanderer | downloading it now :) thanks |
| 06:19.11 | findlay | the gits downstairs thought it was OK to be playing some garbage really loud, so I gave them the Beethoven treatment. Symphony no. 5 with the bass turned all the way up. Oh, yeah. |
| 06:20.27 | findlay | I guess the Berliner Philharmoniker showed them, because now they've stopped. (-: |
| 06:23.15 | Lone_Wanderer | hmm |
| 06:23.30 | Lone_Wanderer | mplayer D: not working :( |
| 06:25.23 | Lone_Wanderer | what filetype does mplayer usually expect? |
| 06:32.09 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer: 'mplayer dvd://'? |
| 06:32.20 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm on a Windows box... |
| 06:32.24 | findlay | yes |
| 06:32.38 | Lone_Wanderer | hmm |
| 06:32.40 | Lone_Wanderer | can't open it :( |
| 06:32.52 | Lone_Wanderer | libdvdread: Can't open file VIDEO_TS.IFO |
| 06:32.57 | findlay | are you using the mingw shell? |
| 06:33.06 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think so... |
| 06:33.07 | findlay | oh, that sounds bad |
| 06:33.21 | Lone_Wanderer | that file is definitely there |
| 06:33.37 | findlay | once you use it, you'll never want to go that crummy command.exe or whatever |
| 06:33.44 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 06:33.50 | Lone_Wanderer | will it make my DVD play? |
| 06:34.12 | findlay | it has tab-complete goodness, *especially* needful for those ugly windows folder names |
| 06:34.27 | Lone_Wanderer | oh nice! |
| 06:35.38 | Lone_Wanderer | but will it help me play my dvd? :( |
| 06:35.58 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm wondering if I just need more codecs or something for windows media player |
| 06:36.10 | Lone_Wanderer | (although I have whatsit installed already. divx.) |
| 06:36.25 | findlay | probably not |
| 06:37.02 | findlay | http://www.mplayerhq.hu/homepage/design7/dload.html |
| 06:37.20 | findlay | you may find some codecs there |
| 06:37.37 | Lone_Wanderer | kk |
| 06:37.40 | findlay | the codec needs are different for windows though, I think |
| 06:38.05 | findlay | http://www.mingw.org/download.shtml |
| 06:38.10 | brac | [MinGW - Download] |
| 06:39.00 | findlay | Lone_Wanderer: the mingw shell is called msys, and it almost makes a windows computer usable |
| 06:39.13 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 07:00.37 | findlay | happy December |
| 07:00.54 | Lone_Wanderer | December! |
| 07:03.16 | maquis | it's almost christmas!!!!! |
| 07:03.42 | findlay | and if it wasn't for me you'd never know |
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| 13:50.22 | jeb | hans: ping |
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| 14:28.56 | graphyx | Morning |
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| 14:31.29 | jsmith | Morning graphyx |
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| 15:17.19 | maquis | hans: "jeb" was pinging you this morning |
| 15:17.31 | maquis | 06:50 < jeb> hans: ping |
| 15:17.53 | hans | yeah, I got it |
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| 15:40.35 | dn3e8 | can tar 'uncompress' a .zip file? |
| 15:41.14 | hans | no, but unzip can |
| 15:43.23 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 15:46.38 | dn3e8 | 'tanks |
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| 15:54.44 | RyanE_away | http://www.savagechickens.com/blog/2005/12/honest-networking.html |
| 15:54.45 | brac | [Savage Chickens: Honest Networking] |
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| 16:05.24 | hans | RyanE: thanks for addicting me |
| 16:07.41 | RyanE | hans: i Loves the Chickens! |
| 16:08.06 | RyanE | this one reminded me a bit about the Geek dinner last night. :) |
| 16:26.33 | jebar | hans ping |
| 16:26.41 | hans | pong |
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| 16:40.29 | harleypig | Thumper [2/3] has challenged Shimei [374/1146] in combat and lost! 0 days, 00:01:20 is added to Thumper's clock. |
| 16:40.37 | harleypig | I can picture *that* fight! |
| 16:41.02 | harleypig | Thumper starts to swing his weapon ... only to find himself lying flat on his back whimpering for his mommy. |
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| 16:48.30 | hans | -lart vontrapp |
| 16:50.23 | graphyx | How did the geek dinner go? |
| 16:50.38 | graphyx | I would have loved to go, but couldnt. |
| 16:51.12 | Newsome | ~barf |
| 16:51.13 | ibot | BLECCH |
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| 16:57.25 | hans | -lart ibot |
| 16:57.40 | hans | ~language brac |
| 16:57.41 | ibot | ACTION grabs brac by the ear and washes brac's mouth out with soap |
| 16:59.10 | levi | Good morning. |
| 17:00.03 | mrpull-_ | levi: mornin' |
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| 17:00.59 | levi | How's it going? |
| 17:02.08 | mrpull-_ | i'd planned to play with the vmware player, but the redhat registration is being a PITA |
| 17:03.43 | levi | Redhat registration? |
| 17:04.17 | mrpull-_ | Yeah, redhat provides a prebuilt virtual machine of RHEL... but the link to it isn't any good |
| 17:06.15 | graphyx | is expects a good scripting language to try buffer overflows with? |
| 17:06.27 | graphyx | DO they have any print "a" * 2000 construct? |
| 17:06.47 | graphyx | or rather does expects have a print "a" * 2000 construct? |
| 17:16.45 | Hhhhh | hmm, what do you guys think of the GPL? |
| 17:17.29 | Hhhhh | I'm starting to dislike its terms, I think I prefer LGPL |
| 17:18.38 | mrpull-_ | Hhhhh: you know how you aren't supposed to talk about sex, politics, or religion in public settings? i think software licensing is going to be added to that group someday. |
| 17:19.32 | Hhhhh | well, I talk about politics and religion a lot |
| 17:19.38 | Hhhhh | I guess I'm just NPC |
| 17:19.58 | Hhhhh | heh, I just want an opinion, I don't intend to attack anybody |
| 17:21.01 | mrpull-_ | Hhhhh: i'm only partly joking. i like the BSD license. The fewer restrictions the better. |
| 17:21.40 | Hhhhh | how would you contrast BSD license and LGPL? I don't know much about licenses, but I don't like the linking thingy in GPL |
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| 17:21.51 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 17:23.37 | maquis | Newsome: not me, unfortunately |
| 17:24.08 | Newsome | hmm |
| 17:25.10 | hans | can you specify one share have security=share while the others remain security=user? |
| 17:28.17 | hans | nevermind, what I wanted was map to guest = bad user |
| 17:31.03 | hans | o/~ singin' out I never meant to cause you trouble... |
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| 17:31.49 | maquis | ~fungicide |
| 17:31.50 | ibot | ACTION pounces on fungus with a bottle of chlorodinitronaphthalene |
| 17:32.50 | fungus | ~maquicide |
| 17:33.11 | maquis | ~curse murphy |
| 17:33.12 | ibot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, murphy ! |
| 17:35.28 | hans | it's only finals now |
| 17:36.13 | hans | ok, gnome gurus, how do I get back the gnome menu that my son seems to have eradicated? |
| 17:36.53 | RyanE | graphyx: the geek dinner was fun, but the presentation on microformats wasn't something I couldn't pick up just about as fast by going to microformats.org. |
| 17:39.11 | levi | hans: I think you can add it back like any other panel applet. |
| 17:39.23 | hans | RyanE: wasn't it a sales pitch? don't forget salesmen attach magical value to the sound of their voice |
| 17:40.04 | Newsome | ~lart pompous windbags |
| 17:40.05 | hans | you're right. guess I missed it the first tie. |
| 17:43.15 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:46.57 | graphyx | RyanE: What about the job networking aspect of it? Was that something to encourage or was it a pain? |
| 17:48.26 | RyanE | graphyx: there were about 70 people there, so you really only talked to the people who were sitting fairly near you, but they did have people who were looking to hire and people who were looking for jobs to stand up and say what they were seeking. |
| 17:48.44 | RyanE | so there were about 5-6 people seeking people, about 5-6 seeking jobs |
| 17:48.55 | RyanE | although skill sets obviously didn't match up 1-1 |
| 17:48.56 | RyanE | :) |
| 17:53.27 | lars-ut-away | http://www.connect-utah.com/article.asp?r=1244&iid=37&sid=4 |
| 17:53.28 | brac | [Connect :: Resource/Article :: September Columnist - Phil Windley] |
| 17:54.42 | hans | there's a useless title |
| 17:56.24 | mrpull-_ | anybody install RT recently? |
| 17:58.00 | Jayce^ | it's been a little bit... |
| 17:58.07 | Jayce^ | but I've done it. |
| 18:03.10 | tene | http://media1.Break.com/content/houselights.wmv |
| 18:04.28 | levi | Heh, interesting blog entry on Java, Ruby, and Smalltalk: http://smallthought.com/avi/?p=8 |
| 18:10.46 | mrpull-_ | Jayce^: did you use packages? or just source? |
| 18:13.25 | *** join/#utah hagna (n=me@67.50.46.118) |
| 18:14.59 | Jayce^ | I've done both, usually nicest to go packages on whatever your system is |
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| 18:15.44 | mrpull-_ | Jayce^: deb or rpm? |
| 18:17.33 | Jayce^ | here it's rpm (since I don't choose the boxes) |
| 18:17.48 | mrpull-_ | Jayce^: gotcha |
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| 18:18.15 | mrpull-_ | I'll probably use CentOS in the long run, but this is just a trial setup, so I was looking for the easiest path |
| 18:18.34 | Jayce^ | likely rpm's |
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| 18:20.05 | mrpull-_ | i've gotten lazy in my old age. apt and/or yum make doing most things with source seem tedious. |
| 18:21.16 | jebar | hans ping |
| 18:21.56 | mheath | mrpull: Emerge or Ports. Best of both worlds :) |
| 18:22.33 | mrpull-_ | mheath: i can get on board with freebsd/ports... but gentoo can go to hell |
| 18:22.57 | mheath | mrpull: there's ports for Linux, too, you know |
| 18:22.59 | mheath | Gar Pots |
| 18:23.00 | mheath | *Ports |
| 18:23.08 | mheath | Uses GNU Make rather than pmake |
| 18:23.11 | mheath | bbl |
| 18:24.46 | mrpull-_ | now there is an idea... abandon tried and true systems like apt and rpm for garports |
| 18:24.50 | mrpull-_ | i'll pass |
| 18:26.40 | mrpull-_ | the RT wiki makes ubuntu's install look awfully easy |
| 18:27.32 | Jayce^ | haven't tried that |
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| 18:31.44 | goozbach | how much snow back home? |
| 18:31.51 | Jayce^ | very little |
| 18:32.01 | goozbach | bah! |
| 18:32.05 | Jayce^ | no kidding |
| 18:32.14 | mrpull-_ | goozbach: you making progress on your RHN clone? |
| 18:33.00 | goozbach | mrpull-_: I'l be releasing proof of concept in a few weeks |
| 18:33.23 | goozbach | I havent gotten much help as of yet |
| 18:33.46 | goozbach | where much == any |
| 18:33.57 | mrpull-_ | goozbach: i'm not much of a coder, but i'm interested enough to test, submit bugs, help document, etc. |
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| 18:38.00 | Hhhhh | hmm, what is the difference (in laymen terms) between bsd license, GPL and LGPL? |
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| 18:38.41 | hans | bsd you can basically do anything if you attribute, gpl means you have to distribute gpl, lgpl means you can link to it dynamically without restriction |
| 18:38.52 | hans | iirc, and that's probably not the whole story |
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| 18:40.30 | jebar | Hans ping |
| 18:44.47 | sjansen | Say hi to my class. |
| 18:45.04 | phinux | Hi class |
| 18:45.11 | goozbach | hi everybody |
| 18:45.46 | goozbach | sjansen is a punk, dont trust him |
| 18:46.25 | goozbach | err enjoy your gurulabs experence |
| 18:46.26 | phinux | ~ {-} |
| 18:46.42 | RyanE | hey class. |
| 18:46.54 | goozbach | fell free to join and ask away |
| 18:47.22 | mrpull-_ | Hhhhh: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/osfreesoft/book/ |
| 18:54.00 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:59.27 | mrpull-_ | http://www.nowpublic.com/node/25514 |
| 18:59.34 | mrpull-_ | RMS Protests DRM |
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| 19:12.41 | vontrapp | grr, ctr-alt-= is too close to ctr-alt-bspace |
| 19:19.15 | maquis | vontrapp: ctrl-alt-=? |
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| 19:20.56 | vontrapp | tallify a window |
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| 20:06.04 | hans | levi: that smalltalk article makes me laugh |
| 20:06.16 | levi | hans: How come? |
| 20:06.41 | hans | because the poor sap is still sitting there with his victim hat on |
| 20:07.37 | hans | if smalltalk really had everything it takes, then in those 20 years some killer app/framework/etc. similar to rails or whatever it was that made java popular would have come along |
| 20:07.41 | levi | I wouldn't really call him a poor sap. He created Seaside and DabbleDb. |
| 20:07.45 | hans | I agree with his points, but not his conclusions |
| 20:08.15 | levi | hans: What made Java popular was lots of marketing $$$$$. |
| 20:08.39 | hans | well then, there you go. and it's arguably the case that what makes this rails phenomenon is the charisma of DHH |
| 20:08.41 | levi | And similarity to C++. |
| 20:08.47 | hans | that's my point, there |
| 20:09.03 | hans | ruby is not quite so similar, but it's not so distant either |
| 20:09.22 | levi | Right. It's sort of an evolutionary change... back towards Smalltalk. |
| 20:09.27 | hans | smalltalk, otoh, is very different. better, perhaps, but if nobody learns it what's the point of being better. |
| 20:09.49 | hans | sort of... but will we ever get to precisely smalltalk syntax? |
| 20:10.12 | levi | Probably not, unless Smalltalk makes a significant comeback. |
| 20:10.25 | hans | exactly |
| 20:10.39 | hans | anyway, I like smalltalk, but more for the ideas than as a language to use |
| 20:10.43 | levi | But 'precicely smalltalk syntax' isn't what's important. |
| 20:10.52 | hans | I have similar feelings about lisp. I like that people use both of them, because they're important |
| 20:11.20 | hans | but I do find humor when they look at everything as "approaching $uberlanguage" |
| 20:11.33 | hans | and that goes for rubyists like myself who often do the same thing, too :) |
| 20:11.39 | levi | It's the junction of a syntax that's good enough, an implementation that's good enough, and tools that are good enough. |
| 20:12.18 | levi | It's a very true phenomenon, though. The 'next big thing' tends to be 20 or so years old in academia by the time it hits mainstream. |
| 20:12.56 | hans | no doubt |
| 20:14.16 | hans | how are gui toolkits in smalltalk? |
| 20:14.19 | levi | I mean, look at Engelbart's demo from 1968. It had a primitive GUI, videoconferencing, and some other collaborative features. Some of that still hasn't hit mainstream yet. |
| 20:14.24 | hans | esp. cross-platform ones |
| 20:14.40 | levi | hans: That's a definite smalltalk weakness. |
| 20:14.52 | hans | and ruby, but it's getting better |
| 20:15.10 | hans | of course, it's pretty much an everything but C/C++ weakness |
| 20:15.11 | levi | hans: VisualWorks Smalltalk has a swing-like gui that is cross-platform, but not cross-native-widget. |
| 20:15.16 | hans | unless you think java guis are good. :) |
| 20:16.03 | levi | Smalltalk is mainly used for in-house app development for businesses, rather than shrink-wrap products. |
| 20:16.13 | levi | (commercially, at least) |
| 20:16.30 | hans | even in-house needs guis these days |
| 20:16.44 | levi | So, platform-native GUIs and cross-platform stuff aren't as important, as long as you can get a GUI. |
| 20:16.46 | hans | at wencor, where they still do cobol, they're looking at a visual version of cobol that can do windows guis |
| 20:16.50 | hans | that's true |
| 20:17.06 | levi | Well, Smalltalk was one of the first GUI programming environments, so certainly it supports GUI. |
| 20:17.35 | levi | Dolphin Smalltalk is Windows-only, and I think it hooks into native widgets. |
| 20:17.37 | hans | oh yeah, squeak. |
| 20:18.01 | levi | Well, Squeak isn't really meant for corporate programming. |
| 20:18.25 | levi | VisualAge Smalltalk, Cincom VisualWorks Smalltalk, etc. are. |
| 20:19.01 | levi | Though IBM has pretty much stopped VisualAge Smalltalk and ported it all to Java. Thus, eclipse. |
| 20:20.43 | levi | Anyway, pretty much all serious Smalltalks do GUI, because GUI has always been an integral part of developing and using Smalltalk. |
| 20:28.55 | vontrapp | ~spell incubater |
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| 20:32.19 | hans | -lart vontrapp |
| 20:32.57 | vontrapp | -freeze hans |
| 20:34.47 | RyanE | I think that Ruby being closer to C syntax is good for us curmudgeons. I wrote my first ruby script the other day. Tastes like Chicken. (looks like C). I have a vague feeling that a real rubyist would've done it differently. |
| 20:35.47 | hans | RyanE: you're vaguely right. but it's good for transitioning |
| 20:38.28 | RyanE | hans: care to look at the fairly simple app and give me any pointers? |
| 20:39.13 | hans | sure, happy to |
| 20:39.30 | RyanE | don't laugh: http://www.ericksonfamily.com/public/get_dn.rb |
| 20:39.48 | RyanE | I guess i have to change permissions. |
| 20:39.49 | RyanE | :) |
| 20:40.11 | RyanE | ok |
| 20:43.13 | hans | I'll pastebin and edit. gimme a sec, as I am up and down helping people with VB |
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| 20:53.35 | RyanE | hans: no rush. just curiosity |
| 21:06.21 | levi | hans: Anyway, I thought the point of Avi's post was that, if he can't get wider adoption of Smalltalk, he'd like Ruby + a modern VM + cool development tools just about as well. Which would be good for everyone, I think. |
| 21:09.02 | hans | RyanE: http://rafb.net/paste/results/iZwles96.html |
| 21:09.29 | hans | levi: yes, I would like that. although I'm happy with vim, but I know I'm not everyone. |
| 21:09.49 | hans | my main reason I'd like a VM is that it will give us true threading. how's that for roundabout |
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| 21:11.49 | levi | You also get JIT, which, with the right optimizations, makes a huge difference in execution speed. |
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| 21:13.33 | levi | Self has some pretty darn impressive performance considering how little information the language gives the compiler for static analysis. |
| 21:15.18 | levi | Anyway, I think a vm that ran both Ruby and Smalltalk would be excellent, especially if the two could interoperate easily. |
| 21:16.07 | hans | yeah, that'd be slick |
| 21:16.25 | hans | a lot of people care about speed a lot too much. I agree speed is nice, but I've never actually run up against it. |
| 21:16.38 | hans | well... I take that back. it was too slow to use for my machine learning class |
| 21:17.43 | RyanE | hans: thanks. I'll do a diff and take a look. :) |
| 21:18.02 | levi | If Ruby wants to escape from the 'scripting language' moniker, it will need to have a faster, more robust implementation. |
| 21:18.48 | levi | Not that it really needs to, but I think it would be a good thing for it to be considered as an option for more projects. |
| 21:19.19 | RyanE | hans: groovy. Thanks. |
| 21:22.36 | hans | levi: agreed |
| 21:22.44 | hans | fbow that's the reality |
| 21:22.59 | levi | fbow? |
| 21:23.00 | hans | and there is a team working on YARV (yet another ruby virtual machine, I think) |
| 21:23.04 | hans | for better or worse |
| 21:32.30 | hans | cool tool of the day: ngrep |
| 21:35.28 | levi | What's ngrep do? |
| 21:36.18 | hans | ngrep bkraegelin@ port 5060 |
| 21:36.50 | hans | ngrep Reply-to port 25 |
| 21:37.18 | levi | Huh, the guy who wrote YARV also did an application framework in Scheme. Sounds like an okay guy to me. ;) |
| 21:37.29 | levi | Ahh, network grep. |
| 21:39.18 | graphyx | hans is that like a quick and dirty tcpdump util? |
| 21:39.38 | levi | Looks like he's working on a Ruby-to-C compiler, too. |
| 21:40.30 | hans | graphyx: something like a tcpdump/grep combo |
| 21:40.54 | graphyx | nifty. |
| 21:46.51 | levi | hans: One of the cool things about Squeak's VM is that it's written in a Smalltalk subset, so you can modify it in-image and run it there to test your changes, and when you're satisfied you run some routines that translate it into C for compilation. |
| 21:47.35 | levi | hans: An in-image optimizing JIT compiler is currently being written for Squeak as well. |
| 22:01.46 | harleypig | -brac urls |
| 22:01.46 | brac | [2005/12/01 14:09:03] <hans> http://rafb.net/paste/results/iZwles96.html |
| 22:01.46 | brac | [2005/12/01 13:39:30] <RyanE> http://www.ericksonfamily.com/public/get_dn.rb |
| 22:01.46 | brac | [2005/12/01 11:59:28] <mrpull-_> http://www.nowpublic.com/node/25514 |
| 22:01.46 | brac | [2005/12/01 11:47:23] <mrpull-_> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/osfreesoft/book/ |
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| 22:16.51 | levi | I dunno why the YARV guy doesn't think implementing Ruby on JVM, .net, or Parrot isn't 'fun'. |
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| 22:16.59 | *** part/#utah roscivs-l (n=Owner@agilestudios.com) |
| 22:17.10 | levi | Maybe it's just not fun for him to do. |
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| 22:30.51 | harleypig | $3 month isn't bad |
| 22:30.56 | harleypig | err ... oops |
| 22:31.32 | RyanE | harleypig: $3 a month sounds quite reasonable. |
| 22:31.44 | RyanE | now if we could just agree on what is provided for that amount... |
| 22:31.51 | harleypig | heh ... as long as I'm typing in the wrong window: http://www.pandora.com |
| 22:32.08 | RyanE | let me guess... they sell boxes. ? :) |
| 22:32.16 | harleypig | nope ... |
| 22:32.29 | jsmith | Would you pay $3 a month to listen to the radio? |
| 22:32.51 | jlp_work | no commercials? lots of people pay more than $3 for that |
| 22:33.16 | jsmith | Yeah, but I'm cheap |
| 22:33.20 | harleypig | It's kind of like last.fm ... dunno how successful they are / will be. |
| 22:33.22 | jsmith | I'd rather ignore the ads |
| 22:33.44 | harleypig | subscription has no ads. |
| 22:33.50 | harleypig | oh |
| 22:36.15 | levi | jsmith: I might pay $3/mo for radio that played music I liked, with variety beyond what typical stations offer, and without ads. |
| 22:37.03 | harleypig | It looks like its good for discovering music you'll like. |
| 22:37.19 | levi | jsmith: Comparing traditional radio stations with last.fm and pandora isn't very fair, as they're not very similar at all, side from the fact that there is music played via both media. |
| 22:37.57 | jsmith | Yeah, but I didn't find that Pandora was any more varied than a typical FM radio station |
| 22:37.58 | jlp_work | $3/mo is less than I spend on beverages... skip a few mugs of pop in the month and you're covered |
| 22:38.10 | jsmith | And the ads appear to be flash ads in the browser, which I could care less about |
| 22:38.12 | harleypig | jsmith: So you've already tried it? |
| 22:38.15 | jlp_work | I'd have to know how many ads are in the "free" version, though :-) |
| 22:38.17 | jsmith | harleypig: Of course... |
| 22:38.22 | harleypig | ah |
| 22:38.23 | levi | jsmith: Well, you must like what you hear on the typical FM radio stations then. |
| 22:38.47 | levi | jsmith: I've never heard the songs I'm hearing on pandora before, but I kind of like them. |
| 22:39.01 | jlp_work | I've actually been liking the new "Jack FM" station (103.1 in the Salt Lake area)... they've played a lot of stuff I hadn't heard in years |
| 22:39.30 | Jayce^ | levi, funny, so far I've just gotten what I've already heard, but expect it to branch out more as I'm adding more songs |
| 22:39.46 | jlp_work | if I could get that music with no commercials, for $3/mo, I'd probably go for it |
| 22:39.47 | levi | I was annoyed by Jack FM, possibly because I was mad they took KJQ's spot. |
| 22:40.03 | levi | Jayce^: What did you tell it you liked? |
| 22:41.09 | Jayce^ | first channel I've tried, was simple (hence getting songs I knew) Erasure, depeche mode, orbital |
| 22:41.14 | Jayce^ | going to add some more now |
| 22:41.50 | levi | I told it I liked The Decemberists, and I haven't recognized the first couple of bands yet. |
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| 22:42.10 | Jayce^ | yeah, my friend chris here has already found a couple of good things from them |
| 22:42.33 | Jayce^ | so I figure it came from my 'generic' band's that I entered |
| 22:47.45 | tensai | since we're talking music, steadmanband.com |
| 22:47.58 | tensai | pretty good band, 150 mp3s for download |
| 22:52.21 | harleypig | I entered Pet Shop Boys, Depeche Mode and Lynyrd Skynyrd ... getting an i nteresting mix. |
| 22:52.38 | levi | Heh. |
| 22:58.57 | levi | Hmm, it must be having a hard time thinking or something. It's taking quite a while between songs. |
| 22:59.41 | harleypig | I'm screwing it up ... |
| 23:00.16 | harleypig | so far, in one station, I have Kinks, Bowie, AC/DC, Rammstein, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Depeche Mode and Pet Shop Boys. |
| 23:00.26 | harleypig | It's reeling under the onslaught. |
| 23:01.10 | tensai | harleypig: I hear "reeling" and "onslaught" are pretty common words to follow in your wake |
| 23:02.54 | harleypig | :D |
| 23:02.57 | harleypig | ask Jayce^ |
| 23:03.39 | harleypig | I need to find a bluegrass artist I like ... |
| 23:03.39 | harleypig | Hmmm ... The Blues Travelers ... |
| 23:03.42 | levi | Do they count as bluegrass? |
| 23:04.24 | harleypig | Well, it's still outside the usual genre |
| 23:04.27 | mrpull-_ | harleypig: isn't hayseed dixie a bluegrass band up your alley? |
| 23:04.46 | harleypig | never heard of hayseed dixie |
| 23:05.01 | mrpull-_ | harleypig: I have a hunch you'll get a kick out of them |
| 23:07.11 | harleypig | looking ... |
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| 23:14.35 | levi | Heh, Blues Traveller just showed up on my station. |
| 23:14.50 | harleypig | What do you have in it? |
| 23:15.06 | levi | Buncha indie rock stuff. |
| 23:15.59 | levi | Neko Case, The Shins, Death Cab for Cutie, The New Pornographers, and The Decemberists |
| 23:16.16 | harleypig | So far, for me: Conway Twitty, Hayseed Dixie, Alison Krauss, Alice Cooper, Neil Young, Rod Stewart, Blues Traveler, Kinks, David Bowie, AC/DC, Rammstein, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Depeche Mode and Pet Shop Boys. |
| 23:16.24 | levi | It seems it played it because of the harmonica part. |
| 23:16.39 | levi | Which I imagine it picked up from Neko Case. |
| 23:18.02 | mrpull-_ | I started with Wesley Willis. This should be fun. |
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| 23:23.59 | xbmodder_ | Hahaha. I find tech support messages Really funny |
| 23:24.46 | xbmodder_ | "A new e-mail virus is spreading accross the internet. It is affecting all high end e-mail servers. Our phone technicians cannot do anything. We can only let this virus take its course." |
| 23:25.00 | xbmodder_ | Since when have linux-based servers not been high-end |
| 23:26.24 | levi | Yeah, because the internet's immune system will eventually take care of the virus if no one does anything about it. |
| 23:26.48 | levi | Someone has taken the 'virus' analogy a little too seriously. |
| 23:31.10 | xbmodder_ | levi: the name of the software they make is "wintotal" |
| 23:31.16 | bonez39 | what's the IP number combination, which represents 'localhost.com'? |
| 23:31.22 | xbmodder_ | doesn't that sound a little like windows? |
| 23:31.46 | Hhhhh | http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484 |
| 23:32.07 | Hhhhh | Richard Stallman: What about them? The programmers writing non-free software? They are doing something antisocial. They should get some other job. |
| 23:33.37 | xbmodder_ | how do you zip (not gzip) a buncha files in linux |
| 23:34.21 | harleypig | oh ... dean martin ... |
| 23:34.28 | harleypig | who else can i add in ... |
| 23:34.33 | harleypig | jackson 5 |
| 23:34.56 | Jayce^ | I aint comign near your cube now |
| 23:35.02 | harleypig | sister sledge! |
| 23:35.09 | harleypig | Good! |
| 23:35.20 | harleypig | BeeGees! |
| 23:35.26 | tensai | what?!? you guys have gamecubes at work? |
| 23:35.27 | harleypig | Boston |
| 23:35.31 | harleypig | :D |
| 23:35.34 | harleypig | No. |
| 23:35.37 | harleypig | Cubie |
| 23:36.10 | harleypig | Olivia Newton John ... |
| 23:36.11 | harleypig | ok ... even I won't go there ... |
| 23:36.23 | harleypig | BOC! |
| 23:36.47 | harleypig | BTO! |
| 23:36.47 | xbmodder_ | "if you are calling about mail please know that its a server-side issue. We are expecting a fix in the next week. Our phone technicians cannot do anything!" |
| 23:36.53 | xbmodder_ | wow. I hate this company! |
| 23:37.05 | harleypig | Sento? |
| 23:40.54 | xbmodder_ | no, alamode |
| 23:42.00 | *** join/#utah SpecialZ (n=chatzill@128.187.156.225) |
| 23:42.38 | harleypig | never heard of it. |
| 23:42.48 | harleypig | Here's the link to my station on pandora: http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh3256520 |
| 23:42.49 | xbmodder_ | appraisal software |
| 23:42.57 | xbmodder_ | http://www.alamode.com |
| 23:42.58 | brac | [Real Estate Software - a la mode The Leader in Real Estate Software and Web Sites] |
| 23:43.13 | xbmodder_ | ~treat brac |
| 23:45.04 | hans | -botsnack |
| 23:45.04 | brac | hans: ta :) |
| 23:45.14 | hans | -brac |
| 23:45.19 | hans | -brac? |
| 23:45.19 | brac | dunno |
| 23:45.25 | hans | brac, who are you? |
| 23:45.25 | brac | don't ask me |
| 23:45.32 | hans | ~brac |
| 23:45.48 | hans | ~brac is the enemy |
| 23:45.49 | ibot | okay, hans |
| 23:46.16 | SpecialZ | ~lart maquis |
| 23:46.25 | SpecialZ | ~brac |
| 23:46.27 | ibot | it has been said that brac is the enemy |
| 23:54.48 | hans | -ibot is the enemy |
| 23:54.49 | brac | done |