| 00:00.10 | goozbach | just what I wanted on my mission... a silk teddy |
| 00:03.42 | xbmodder_lappy | yes |
| 00:04.21 | sjansen | man, that'd be a bad way to start a companionship |
| 00:04.35 | sjansen | "So where are you from Eld... Why do you have a teddy bear?!" |
| 00:08.44 | maquis | sjansen: what's wrong with teddy bears? |
| 00:08.49 | RyanE_away | obviously, it means he has a girlfriend... or at least he *used* to... |
| 00:08.56 | Hhhhh | teddy bears are the devil!!!!111 - Waterboy's mom |
| 00:09.27 | RyanE_away | maquis: it's not really a manly thing, unless it's made of duct tape and stuffed with old newspapers. |
| 00:10.25 | maquis | RyanE_away: that's quite sad for you guys |
| 00:10.37 | Tene | I have a teddy bear. |
| 00:10.47 | Tene | My girl gave it to me. |
| 00:10.53 | goozbach | I have a stuffed dog |
| 00:10.55 | Tene | It's sitting on top of my monitor here at the office. |
| 00:11.02 | goozbach | from when I was a small one |
| 00:11.07 | Tene | Well, the right monitor. The left one has a stuffed giraffe. |
| 00:11.50 | goozbach | it's cute |
| 00:12.44 | Hhhhh | goozbach, why did you stuff your dog? |
| 00:12.59 | Hhhhh | poor dog |
| 00:13.24 | maquis | hmmm |
| 00:13.25 | maquis | no... |
| 00:13.28 | maquis | many more than 6 |
| 00:13.33 | maquis | well.. |
| 00:13.35 | maquis | .6 bears |
| 00:13.41 | maquis | a lot more stuffed animals |
| 00:13.49 | Tene | fractional bears? |
| 00:13.53 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 00:13.54 | maquis | no... |
| 00:13.56 | maquis | 6 |
| 00:14.02 | maquis | then there's the beanie babies |
| 00:14.13 | Hhhhh | yea, Maquis likes to rip her bears apart into fractions |
| 00:14.24 | Tene | ~lart maquis for destroying .4 of a bear |
| 00:19.36 | lars-ut | ~lart maquis for not choosing to destroy irrational number portions of said bears |
| 00:19.48 | xbmodder_lappy | :-/ |
| 00:20.03 | lars-ut | bad ibot, no cookie. |
| 00:20.15 | lars-ut | ibot you're useless |
| 00:20.17 | ibot | ACTION starts crying and hides from lars-ut in the darkest corner of the room. :( |
| 00:21.52 | maquis | ~lart lars-ut and Tene |
| 00:22.25 | lars-ut | how appropriate - yet rational. |
| 00:23.59 | lars-ut | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:26.44 | maquis | lars-ut: not so sure... ibot's usually the one doing the beatings... |
| 00:26.58 | sjansen | I have a stuffed dog, but it's Dogbert so it doesn't count. |
| 00:27.26 | lars-ut | ~pimpslap ibot |
| 00:27.28 | ibot | lars-ut pimpslaps ibot. ouch! |
| 00:27.50 | lars-ut | that's a good start |
| 00:52.13 | SpecialK | ~lart maquis |
| 00:53.40 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 01:12.23 | *** join/#utah bigdog (n=bigdog_u@redge-1.users.xmission.com) |
| 01:12.39 | *** join/#utah albino (n=albino@alt.nafpik.com) |
| 01:14.45 | albino | Anyone who went to byu know if there is free wifi available at the library? |
| 01:15.55 | albino | I'm sure I could figure out with the online map though |
| 01:16.01 | jsmith | Wilkinson Center |
| 01:16.20 | levi | Last time I was at BYU the wireless I found required authentication. |
| 01:16.38 | albino | dang |
| 01:16.51 | albino | And here I was going to go to the library and try to get some programming done |
| 01:17.05 | levi | I found I program better without wireless. ;) |
| 01:17.27 | albino | levi: I probably do too, but occasionally I need some distraction |
| 01:17.28 | levi | I have local copies of the documentation I need on my laptop. |
| 01:17.51 | albino | levi: Are you the lisp dude that hangs out here? |
| 01:18.02 | levi | I also have a zillion downloaded papers, books, etc. to read in case I need something else to work on. And a TV show or two. |
| 01:18.17 | levi | Heh, yeah, I suppose I fit that description. |
| 01:18.21 | albino | hmm, Where do you get your TV shows from? |
| 01:18.27 | levi | bittorrent |
| 01:19.23 | maquis | albino: if you're a student, then most of the library has free wireless |
| 01:19.52 | maquis | not all of it, unless they've upgraded recenly |
| 01:20.32 | levi | As a non-student, I was left out from the wireless love. |
| 01:21.00 | maquis | levi: you just need to find someone who is a student who's willing to help out :) |
| 01:21.00 | albino | maquis: I'm not |
| 01:21.04 | *** join/#utah markl_ (i=mark@dsl093-225-127.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:21.13 | albino | Kind of proud of that fact too, althought now I would appreciate some decent wifi |
| 01:21.26 | albino | s/althought/although |
| 01:21.40 | levi | maquis: I was only there for the afternoon, I was in the HFAC, and by the time computer-savvy people arrived, I had other things to do. :) |
| 01:21.50 | maquis | albino: then unless you can convince someone to authenticate to the network for you, you can't officially get free wireless (i'm sure there's a way to get around their system) |
| 01:22.00 | maquis | levi: yeah... i understand |
| 01:22.14 | levi | UVSC makes you pay for wireless. Bah. |
| 01:22.15 | maquis | i've authenticated some people at uug meetings in the past..... |
| 01:22.37 | levi | And they've turned off most of the network ports in the halls of the CS building. |
| 01:23.23 | maquis | levi: at the last uvlug, i thought they said all of them were off... |
| 01:24.06 | levi | maquis: Some of them in classrooms are on. |
| 01:24.09 | albino | maquis: How is the authentication done? HTTP Auth? |
| 01:24.32 | maquis | albino: when you connect, it takes you to a website where you have to input a username/password... |
| 01:24.39 | maquis | levi: ah... |
| 01:25.13 | levi | Is the username/password hooked into the Route Y authentication stuff? |
| 01:25.21 | maquis | levi: yup |
| 01:25.26 | levi | Hmm. |
| 01:25.29 | jsmith | Figures... |
| 01:25.54 | levi | They quite rudely erased my Route Y login when they suspended me. |
| 01:27.10 | albino | Whats Route Y? Is that your regular student user name and password pair? |
| 01:27.28 | albino | Sorry, I don't know anything about how the Y is setup. But I do know just about everything about how USU is setup. |
| 01:28.04 | levi | Yeah, it's the regular student username and password. |
| 01:28.45 | jsmith | albino: Go Aggies! |
| 01:29.51 | albino | jsmith: Yes, exactly. |
| 01:30.35 | levi | I wanted to enroll in USU's satellite program, but they gave me the runaround. |
| 01:30.38 | albino | At USU you used to be able to steal public IP addresses. Now you have to register your MAC address. |
| 01:30.53 | albino | levi: Oh that sucks. Sorry to hear that. |
| 01:31.01 | levi | albino: You can probably steal someone's MAC address, though. |
| 01:31.16 | albino | levi: You can, I use that all the time. |
| 01:31.32 | albino | Everything is spoofable :) |
| 01:33.02 | maquis | albino: on linux.... |
| 01:35.05 | albino | maquis: You can't spoof a mac on windows? |
| 01:35.13 | albino | I hope mac are spoofable on other unices |
| 01:39.12 | maquis | albino: not sure... i haven't talked to any windoze users who know how to do it |
| 01:39.39 | JoshH | on windows i think it depends on if the nic driver supports it |
| 01:40.09 | maquis | JoshH: ah.. cool |
| 01:40.23 | JoshH | i think you can also do it in the registry |
| 01:40.55 | JoshH | and there is a program called smac that lets you do it |
| 01:41.05 | albino | Oh sweet, registry |
| 01:41.25 | JoshH | http://www.klcconsulting.net/smac/ |
| 01:41.27 | brac | [SMAC Official Website] |
| 01:41.33 | levi | Hmm, apparently there's no Airport Extreme driver to put it in promiscuous mode, so I'm out of luck on the sniffing front. |
| 01:44.56 | levi | Time to head home. |
| 01:52.19 | xbmodder_lappy | hi |
| 01:52.58 | mheath | Hey. |
| 01:54.02 | goozbach | quick! everybody say the first thing that comes to mind... |
| 01:54.20 | maquis | boo |
| 01:54.40 | mheath | Foo? |
| 01:55.06 | xbmodder_lappy | bar |
| 01:57.15 | goozbach | ok that's week |
| 01:57.18 | goozbach | er weak |
| 01:57.21 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 01:57.29 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:57.34 | *** part/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:57.40 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 01:57.42 | xbmodder_lappy | sjansen, |
| 01:57.50 | xbmodder_lappy | back at HQ? |
| 01:57.57 | sjansen | never left |
| 01:58.22 | goozbach | blah |
| 01:58.41 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 01:59.47 | xbmodder_lappy | Who thinks it'd be hard to terraform Mars? |
| 02:00.19 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog_u@redge-1.users.xmission.com) |
| 02:02.42 | maquis | sjansen: that would be a cool domain |
| 02:03.28 | sjansen | It was registered this year. If only I'd thought of it back when I was looking for my domain name. :-( |
| 02:04.00 | maquis | sjansen: no kidding |
| 02:04.03 | goozbach | maquis: megamango.com |
| 02:04.31 | maquis | goozbach: i've been looking at some egyptian-themed domain-names |
| 02:04.36 | maquis | but they seem to all be taken |
| 02:06.19 | sjansen | tuxgirl.com and tuxgirl.org are available. |
| 02:06.35 | Newsome | lartmaquis.com is available |
| 02:06.45 | maquis | sjansen: i noticed that, but i'm not really sure i want to use tuxgirl for my domain |
| 02:12.07 | mheath | This, for example, is Athena. |
| 02:12.11 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:12.18 | sjansen | virtues |
| 02:12.22 | maquis | mheath: cool |
| 02:12.25 | maquis | sjansen: ?? |
| 02:12.32 | mheath | Well, thats what it is on my local network |
| 02:12.40 | mheath | publically, this machine is revolution.datamachine.net |
| 02:13.11 | sjansen | Vision. Patience. Wisdom. Diligence. <-- Names I am or have using. |
| 02:13.20 | maquis | ah |
| 02:13.37 | maquis | sjansen: that's interesting... are they inspiring? |
| 02:14.16 | sjansen | Vision == giant screen. Patience == annoying Dell. Diligence == Provided by work as I was getting burned out. Wisdom == Powebook running Linux. |
| 02:15.14 | maquis | sjansen: nice |
| 02:17.25 | sjansen | http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~cherryne/myth.cgi/Skadi.html <-- Norse mythology has a goddess of skis. |
| 02:17.38 | maquis | haha |
| 02:17.47 | maquis | thor is pretty cool |
| 02:18.36 | mheath | I wanted to thank whoever recommended that Kerberos Play-in-four-acts writeup. |
| 02:18.53 | mheath | I'm working on a simplified Kerberos implementation to handle the authentication for my protocol |
| 02:19.31 | mheath | Java bindings for Kerberos seem kinda shady; thats why I've decided to work on my own simplified implementation |
| 02:20.20 | sjansen | *!!! DANGER, WILL ROBINSONS, DANGER!!!* |
| 02:20.34 | sjansen | Implementing your own security protocol is a very bad idea. |
| 02:20.48 | mheath | sjansen: It's not my own security protocol. |
| 02:20.52 | Newsome | just use memfrob for everything |
| 02:21.10 | mheath | It's a simplified implementation of an existing (and rather simple) protocol. |
| 02:21.23 | sjansen | "simplified" == your own |
| 02:21.35 | mheath | No. |
| 02:21.44 | mheath | Kerberos presents some features that I just don't need. |
| 02:21.44 | levi | mheath: I'm the one that recommended that. I'm glad you enjoyed it. |
| 02:21.53 | maquis | sjansen: he's not going to listen to you.... |
| 02:22.08 | mheath | I'm just cutting out the fluff I don't need. |
| 02:22.45 | mheath | And customizing the key-and-password usage so theres a greater degree of pseudo-anonymity |
| 02:23.30 | sjansen | Don't say I didn't warn you. |
| 02:24.04 | sjansen | I seriously question if you're qualified to decide what's "fluff" and how to "provide greater anonymity". |
| 02:25.06 | mheath | sjansen: The anonymity factor is just a matter of using public+private key pairs in better way |
| 02:25.16 | mheath | THe idea being, you could potentially move from network to network with this protocol |
| 02:25.35 | mheath | And you don't want to risk sharing sensitive information with a potentially nontrustworthy server |
| 02:26.18 | mheath | The question becomes, how can I authorize myself using a shared identifier, yet still not share sensitive information like usernames and passwords |
| 02:26.22 | maquis | sjansen: good idea |
| 02:26.36 | sjansen | I think you're being stupid, but have fun. You'll probably never finish it and move on to something else in six months anyway. |
| 02:26.59 | mheath | sjansen: Why do you think I'm being stupid? |
| 02:27.12 | *** join/#utah usynic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 02:27.38 | maquis | mheath: you can't say you're looking for feedback when everytime that anyone on this channel *ever* gives you feedback, you disregard it, or say that we're wrong |
| 02:28.12 | goozbach | security (in any form) should only be approached by those who have GREAT amounts of experience in the field |
| 02:28.24 | mheath | maquis: Sorry. I feel compelled to justify my existing opinion. |
| 02:28.51 | goozbach | there are FAR too many varibles which can come back to bite you in the ass |
| 02:29.26 | mheath | goozbach: Thats why I'm using an existing and simple protocol; I'm just writing my own implementation. |
| 02:29.43 | mheath | The Kerberos protocol discussed in that dialoge is very simple |
| 02:29.44 | goozbach | miss one small detail and your umteen layers of security framework are about as worthless as reusable toiletpaper |
| 02:29.46 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@67-41-235-247.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 02:30.00 | sjansen | No, as soon as you step outside the spec even a little you are inventing your own protocol. |
| 02:30.19 | goozbach | own implemtation =! same protocol |
| 02:30.55 | maquis | mheath: when you're looking for feedback, there's no need to try to justify your own opinion... the point of looking for feedback is that you admit that you could be wrong, and you want to hear other people's thoughts on it... if you don't want to listen to other people's opinions/thoughts/wisdom, then there's not much point in asking for feedback |
| 02:31.20 | sjansen | The only way to have a real chance at security is to have a large number of domain experts examine the design carefully. |
| 02:32.01 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@70-58-32-64.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 02:32.10 | goozbach | hence the reason that these current implementations are your best bet |
| 02:32.16 | sjansen | What you consider unimportant may be a vital detail that your limited experience doesn't allow you to understand the importance. |
| 02:32.26 | goozbach | there is usually some reason they are so "heavyweight" |
| 02:33.34 | sjansen | And even after a protocol is carefully examined by many experts, little details trip up the experts and result in insecure protocols. |
| 02:33.57 | goozbach | look at the history of openssl |
| 02:34.13 | sjansen | Do you understand why random delays are inserted into SSH packets? If not, you're probably better off using someone else's security library. |
| 02:35.37 | sjansen | I don't claim to be a security expert, but I know enough that I don't know enough to design and implement a protocol safely. |
| 02:36.27 | goozbach | and I think that you don't know enough to know that you don't know enough |
| 02:36.45 | mheath | Well, without these modifications, I'm concerned, because Kerberos doesn't do what I need without them. |
| 02:37.14 | mheath | Kerberos, as far as I understand, is focused on a single login and password for a variety of services |
| 02:37.33 | mheath | Thats the point of it - authenticate for multiple services using a nice, secure authentication system |
| 02:38.11 | *** join/#utah Peregrine (n=lamontp@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 02:38.14 | mheath | But again, I'm looking for a means of pseudo-anonymous identification - a means of letting the server check who you are without giving it sensitive information like a username or password |
| 02:38.19 | maquis | ~lart Peregrine |
| 02:38.35 | goozbach | kerberos was FORGED in the pit of MIT |
| 02:38.36 | mheath | I wanted to do this by utilizing public+private key pairs |
| 02:38.42 | sjansen | mheath: Then you need to do alot of research. |
| 02:38.47 | goozbach | it cannot be replaced willy-nilly |
| 02:38.53 | mheath | goozbach: I understand that. Kerberos is an excellent protocol; I like it |
| 02:39.03 | sjansen | Digital identity is a hot research topic at the moment. |
| 02:39.05 | mheath | My point is that without these modifications, it doesn't do what I need it to do. |
| 02:39.12 | goozbach | which is? |
| 02:39.38 | mheath | <mheath> But again, I'm looking for a means of pseudo-anonymous identification - a means of letting the server check who you are without giving it sensitive information like a username or password |
| 02:39.46 | Peregrine | What about using public/private key pairs is it that you are wanting to get? |
| 02:39.59 | sjansen | mheath: That sounds alot like doublethink to me. |
| 02:40.08 | mheath | That is, a means of using a single login for multiple servers, without sharing information that would allow an untrusted server to pretend to be you. |
| 02:40.32 | mheath | sjansen: No. The problem is, this protocol (or rather, what I'd be using it for) would be for wireless devices |
| 02:40.40 | mheath | Which could potentially be moving from network to network |
| 02:40.41 | maquis | mheath: and yet you refuse to encrypt the entire session... |
| 02:41.02 | Peregrine | ~lart maquis |
| 02:41.09 | goozbach | kerberos is hardly ever used alone |
| 02:41.09 | maquis | so, you're saying that anyone should be able to see everything that goes on, but should not be able to become you |
| 02:41.26 | mheath | maquis: Yep. |
| 02:41.33 | sjansen | There can be no identification without trust. Kerberos has one of the lowest trust threshold out there, short of anonymous posting on Slashdot. |
| 02:41.36 | mheath | Encryption would be handled at a higher level, where necessary. |
| 02:41.49 | Peregrine | So you want to have your cake and it it too, mheath? You're nuts. |
| 02:42.16 | goozbach | ~lart Peregrine for ad-homeim |
| 02:42.24 | goozbach | er however you spell that |
| 02:42.39 | Peregrine | Ah, you called me on that one goozbach. |
| 02:42.52 | mheath | sjansen: Sure their can be authentication without trust. The server doesn't have to know *who* you are, it just has to know that you're the same person who logged in before with that identifier. |
| 02:43.19 | tensai | mheath: so what's wrong with ssl certificates? |
| 02:43.26 | sjansen | So you mean secure session management. For that you need encryption. |
| 02:43.31 | maquis | mheath: if you're trying to authenticate who the user is without sending back and forth encrypted bits, but you don't want an eavesdropper to have any way to pretend to be the person, i think (from what i'm understanding in security class) that you're asking for something that's not quite possible... |
| 02:43.46 | *** join/#utah graphyx_home (n=mike@c-67-169-246-4.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:43.50 | sjansen | Otherwise, anyone can steal the authentication token. |
| 02:43.56 | maquis | exactly |
| 02:43.59 | graphyx_home | So tell me. |
| 02:44.07 | mheath | Thats why I liked the Kerberos protocol discussed in that dialog. |
| 02:44.08 | graphyx_home | Is there a way to manually override client side settings for ssh |
| 02:44.10 | graphyx_home | ? |
| 02:44.11 | Peregrine | Well, Maquis, it's not "not quite possible"...there are the Diffie-Hellman protocols. |
| 02:44.39 | graphyx_home | I think this machine is configured to look for keys and not for passwords..(I don't have root) |
| 02:44.46 | tensai | Peregrine: diffie-hellman works to generate one ethereal token, but can't be used again without the same nonces |
| 02:44.52 | graphyx_home | And I am trying to connect to a machine that you can log in with just passwords. |
| 02:44.59 | sjansen | Peregrine: Diffie-Hellman can securely start an encryption channel, not the same thing as sending random data clear text and safe. |
| 02:45.04 | sjansen | graphyx_home: yes |
| 02:45.28 | sjansen | graphyx_home: You can put them on the command line or in an ssh config file in you .ssh directory. |
| 02:45.28 | tensai | graphyx_home: ssh -o PubkeyAuthentication=no |
| 02:45.29 | maquis | Peregrine: i don't see how diffie-hellman would allow a user to have a long-term dialogue with a server without encrypting anything outside of the initial authentication, while still ensuring that the user doesn't change |
| 02:45.34 | goozbach | clear text and safe are mutually exclusive, no? |
| 02:45.48 | tensai | maquis: it wouldn't |
| 02:45.49 | Peregrine | You are correct, Tensai, sjansen...what I meant/should have added was that Maquis is right in that you need encryption. |
| 02:46.08 | graphyx_home | hmm... am I doing something wrong? |
| 02:46.08 | graphyx_home | mike@Angel ~ $ ssh -o PubkeyAuthentication=no mike@10.1.2.10 |
| 02:46.08 | graphyx_home | Permission denied (publickey,keyboard-interactive). |
| 02:46.09 | tensai | Peregrine: I figured as much, just clarifying |
| 02:46.12 | goozbach | no safety without some form of encription, be it asymetric or symetric |
| 02:46.17 | sjansen | goozbach: almost mutually exclusive |
| 02:46.55 | sjansen | graphyx_home: The server can choose to accept only keys. |
| 02:47.02 | mheath | Hmmm; You're right. Encryption would be a requirement for this to work well. |
| 02:47.07 | sjansen | graphyx_home: ssh -vvv -o PubkeyAuthentication=no mike@10.1.2.10 |
| 02:47.13 | tensai | my recommendation is openvpn w/ ssl certs. easy, complete, feature-rich. security is best implemented by somebody else years ago, and then tested like mad. |
| 02:47.39 | goozbach | or for simple tunnell through ssh |
| 02:47.49 | Peregrine | and security is best in open source. |
| 02:47.49 | goozbach | it's got the key stuff figured out already |
| 02:47.51 | tensai | if it survives, use it. if not, back to the drawing board. but don't implement crypto willy-nilly. see SSLv2 |
| 02:48.06 | tensai | see WEP |
| 02:48.07 | sjansen | OpenSSH is developed by probably the most anal, paranoid people on the planet. It has my vote. |
| 02:48.22 | Peregrine | OpenVPN has security problems (that could be fixed, as I understand the problem)...IPsec is the best choice, today. |
| 02:48.29 | Peregrine | Security-wise, that is. |
| 02:48.32 | graphyx_home | might this be a problem? debug1: read_passphrase: can't open /dev/tty: Permission denied |
| 02:48.46 | mheath | I'm worried about burdening this too much, though. I want to leave this basic section of my system as simple and clean as possible, to allow for better control and customization and higher levels. |
| 02:48.53 | goozbach | as you can see all the suggestions are entrenched solutions |
| 02:48.55 | mheath | *at higher levels |
| 02:49.02 | tensai | ipsec is a hornets nest wrt interoperability |
| 02:49.05 | Peregrine | I don't know, sjansen...you're not on the OpenSSH teah :). |
| 02:49.23 | goozbach | he's got anal covered, he's not all that paranoid yet |
| 02:49.43 | sjansen | graphyx_home: Could very well be. OpenSSH tries to read your password directly instead of from stdin. It's paranoid enough that I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't even ask if it didn't thinnk it could do so safely. |
| 02:49.55 | goozbach | I mean jeez he left his laptop unlocked all during lunch |
| 02:49.57 | Peregrine | It can be, but it is not as bad as you might think, tensai. |
| 02:50.01 | graphyx_home | Ok thanks sjansen |
| 02:50.21 | goozbach | I never walk away without at least locking the screensaver |
| 02:51.03 | Peregrine | me, too, goozbach |
| 02:51.03 | tensai | I never walk away without setting my thermo-detonator |
| 02:51.16 | maquis | goozbach: not completely true |
| 02:51.28 | goozbach | which part? |
| 02:51.41 | goozbach | anal or paranoid or lock |
| 02:51.55 | goozbach | when? |
| 02:52.18 | Peregrine | BUSTED! |
| 02:52.20 | tensai | maquis: only when invoked as root |
| 02:52.25 | maquis | goozbach: it was one of the meetings that Peregrine was at too |
| 02:52.33 | goozbach | tensai: not on my laptop |
| 02:52.33 | sjansen | tensai: or PAM is configured to trust wheel |
| 02:52.38 | maquis | tensai: no... he has it set up so that his regular user doesn't need a password |
| 02:52.54 | tensai | don't everybody correct me at once :) |
| 02:52.56 | maquis | Peregrine: do you remember that? |
| 02:53.06 | Peregrine | Well, since I've only been to a grand total of one (1) UUG meetings, it might be hard to narrow it down. |
| 02:53.32 | Peregrine | Yup...sjansen spent an hour showing us how cool color was on the bash prompt :). |
| 02:53.38 | tensai | this wheel setup sounds silly. I've only ever heard of using wheel to restrict who can su, but to still require a password. |
| 02:53.45 | maquis | right... that's what the meeting was..... |
| 02:54.26 | sjansen | tensai: no different than sudo, but more convenient |
| 02:54.59 | maquis | goozbach: that'd be pretty cool |
| 02:55.03 | goozbach | I'm just too lazy to impplemnt it |
| 02:55.23 | maquis | sjansen: i'm a bit more paranoid than you... sudo requires a password on my boxen |
| 02:55.29 | tensai | sjansen: less flexible than sudo, and by default sudo requires a password and has a timeout |
| 02:56.19 | graphyx_home | is there a way to key in the password for ssh on command line? |
| 02:56.53 | sjansen | graphyx_home: ... |
| 02:56.56 | tensai | graphyx_home: I don't think so. I'd be surprised if there was, given how paranoid the openssh developers are. |
| 02:58.19 | maquis | goozbach: how would your color-changing prompt work with people who already have various colors of prompt |
| 02:58.23 | maquis | ? |
| 02:58.43 | sjansen | maquis: just part of the prompt, of course |
| 02:58.51 | maquis | (ie, i have a different color dependent upon what machine i'm on, and whether i'm root or not) |
| 02:58.59 | maquis | sjansen: true... that would work well |
| 03:00.00 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog_u@redge-1.users.xmission.com) |
| 03:00.14 | tensai | ~burn maquis |
| 03:00.15 | ibot | ibot pours gasoline all over maquis, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze |
| 03:03.27 | goozbach | graphyx_home: try expect |
| 03:03.39 | goozbach | it MAY work |
| 03:05.04 | Peregrine | Tensai: can you SSH to anywhere else? |
| 03:05.27 | Peregrine | Oops! graphyx_home, that was for you. |
| 03:05.30 | goozbach | graphyx_home: can you pretend you're tensai |
| 03:07.51 | goozbach | he just wanted to be cool and ask a smart question... |
| 03:07.52 | goozbach | dumbly |
| 03:07.54 | Peregrine | Um, my eyelids didn't move out of the way fast enough as I moved my eyes up the screen? |
| 03:08.25 | maquis | Peregrine: that's officially one of the greatest excuses i've heard today |
| 03:08.40 | Peregrine | Glad to be of service. |
| 03:09.02 | goozbach | that'a my new goal in life: learn to ask smart questions dumbly |
| 03:09.31 | goozbach | er that's |
| 03:09.38 | goozbach | er what a good start I mean |
| 03:09.43 | Peregrine | That'sa gooda goal! |
| 03:10.03 | RyanE_away | Falcon === Jar Jar. Disturbing turn of events. |
| 03:10.09 | maquis | mmmmm.... gouda! |
| 03:10.19 | Peregrine | Brie. |
| 03:10.19 | maquis | RyanE_away: huh? |
| 03:11.06 | RyanE_away | maquis: Peregrine is a type of Falcon. The way he was talking was JarJar-esque. Disturbing. |
| 03:11.23 | RyanE_away | not worth 'getting', really. |
| 03:11.55 | Peregrine | Not JarJar...Italian! |
| 03:12.52 | maquis | oh |
| 03:13.36 | maquis | i read someplace that the thing people liked the most about hte omst recent star wars is that jar jar doesn't say anything |
| 03:13.38 | maquis | :) |
| 03:13.40 | Peregrine | OK...so back to my question... |
| 03:14.01 | Peregrine | graphyx_home: Can YOU ssh to anywhere else? |
| 03:17.10 | Peregrine | Well, I think I had better get home. |
| 03:17.21 | Peregrine | later everybody :). |
| 03:17.26 | maquis | Peregrine: see you |
| 03:17.33 | *** part/#utah Peregrine (n=lamontp@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 03:25.09 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
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| 03:45.51 | graphyx_home | anyone have an asterisk server that they are willing to let me connect to from my asterisk server just to learn how to do it? |
| 03:45.59 | graphyx_home | I don' |
| 03:46.00 | elg | sure |
| 03:46.06 | graphyx_home | elg: cool. |
| 03:46.07 | elg | but I might not be able to do it tonight |
| 03:46.12 | graphyx_home | That's ok. |
| 03:46.37 | graphyx_home | I don't have a voip service or anything, just want to get started on it. |
| 03:47.00 | elg | sure. I'll set you up an account and you can talk to my menu |
| 03:47.06 | graphyx_home | That would be great. |
| 03:47.18 | graphyx_home | I just want to get an asterisk to asterisk connection working. |
| 03:47.38 | graphyx_home | Learn about dialout trunks and the like. |
| 04:11.56 | jsmith-away | graphyx_home: I've got one... |
| 04:12.07 | jsmith-away | graphyx_home: (If you're still around, and are still interested) |
| 04:12.13 | graphyx_home | cool. |
| 04:12.15 | graphyx_home | I figured that you would have one. |
| 04:12.17 | graphyx_home | yes to both. |
| 04:12.25 | jsmith-away | Gimme a second, and I'll set something up. |
| 04:12.28 | graphyx_home | ok |
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| 04:53.48 | Newsome | http://news.com.com/Build-it-yourself+cell+phones/2100-1008_3-5953682.html?tag=nefd.lede |
| 04:53.52 | brac | [Build-it-yourself cell phones | CNET News.com] |
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| 05:48.03 | *** join/#utah SpecialZ (n=Scott@128.187.221.164) |
| 05:48.12 | SpecialZ | ~lart maquis |
| 05:52.40 | levi | Ahh, one paper down. |
| 05:52.44 | tensai | oh, no! not the closet! |
| 05:52.58 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog_u@redge-1.users.xmission.com) |
| 05:53.07 | maquis | ~lart SpecialZ |
| 05:53.20 | maquis | -lart SpecialZ |
| 05:53.28 | SpecialZ | Well it appears maquis came out of the closet |
| 05:53.35 | tensai | jsmith: I loved your "asking twice makes us *less* likely to help" response on ast-dev. :) |
| 05:53.50 | maquis | haha |
| 05:53.54 | maquis | tensai: ot |
| 05:53.58 | levi | maquis: What happened with that 330 assignment? |
| 05:54.00 | maquis | s qiote trie |
| 05:54.07 | maquis | levi: still working on it |
| 05:54.21 | maquis | still have very little idea of what i'm doing |
| 05:54.24 | levi | maquis: Were you able to get any help on it? |
| 05:54.28 | tensai | maquis: try shifting your right hand over to the left :D |
| 05:54.51 | jsmith | tensai: Thanks... |
| 05:56.15 | jsmith | tensai: Think it got the point across? |
| 06:00.42 | jsmith | Split! |
| 06:00.42 | jsmith | Splat! |
| 06:00.42 | *** join/#utah maquis (n=maquis@joanna.zmonkey.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 06:00.42 | tensai | jsmith: the more lists I join the more I realize that some people just don't care if they have no etiquette |
| 06:01.42 | tensai | my favorite is the "you owe me an answer" style |
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| 06:02.36 | maquis | tensai: it is quite true |
| 06:02.55 | levi | Holy netsplit, Batman! |
| 06:03.07 | tensai | ~lart 50GB tarballs |
| 06:03.18 | maquis | tensai: 50GB???? |
| 06:03.23 | maquis | what's in it? |
| 06:03.38 | jsmith | tensai: That's nothing... |
| 06:03.56 | tensai | every single email from every single customer. and I just need one. |
| 06:05.21 | tensai | 54,504,356,826 bytes to be exact |
| 06:05.39 | tensai | jsmith: so... what is something then? |
| 06:05.39 | maquis | tensai: that sucks.... |
| 06:06.00 | jsmith | tensai: Just kidding... but I've got a 200GB file around here somewhere... |
| 06:06.01 | maquis | tensai: wouldn't it make sense to organize them a little differently? |
| 06:06.17 | maquis | ie, have them in tarballs by month or something? |
| 06:06.23 | tensai | maquis: actually, it's worse. I need to know if a certain mailbox is in the tarball and then I have to get it out. that means two times through the tarball. |
| 06:07.06 | maquis | tensai: have an index? :-P |
| 06:07.11 | tensai | maquis: too much work, only gets used a couple times a month at most. we're not in the habit of nuking mailboxes on a regular basis. |
| 06:07.17 | maquis | there's got to be some better way to do it |
| 06:07.21 | maquis | you nuked a mailbox? |
| 06:07.27 | maquis | why'dja do that? |
| 06:07.54 | tensai | somebody did. looks like it's been gone for a year, though so I can't say I'm crying in my milk about it. |
| 06:07.56 | SpecialZ | ~nuke maquis |
| 06:07.57 | ibot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at maquis ... BOOM! |
| 06:08.11 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 06:08.22 | maquis | findlay: why'd you have to come in here? |
| 06:08.52 | levi | Hi, findlay. |
| 06:09.07 | tensai | jsmith: by no means do I want to win the "I have a bigger file than you" war. that would mean I have to deal with that big file, and I just don't wanna. |
| 06:10.26 | jsmith | tensai: Gotcha |
| 06:11.15 | tensai | just like I don't want to win the "my oncall week sucked worse than yours" fight. luckily it's been good so far. |
| 06:14.55 | maquis | and i have to hold down ctrl-alt-f1 for a while to get it to let me do that |
| 06:17.11 | maquis | anyone have any idea? |
| 06:19.17 | maquis | anyone know anything about a process called mred? |
| 06:19.20 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@70-57-89-223.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 06:19.41 | maquis | emcnabb: are you actually there, or is your computer auto-joining you? |
| 06:20.40 | levi | maquis: That's MrEd, part of DrScheme, I'll bet. The GUI framework. |
| 06:21.16 | maquis | levi: sounds about right |
| 06:21.21 | maquis | in that case, i won't kill it |
| 06:21.33 | maquis | because it shouldn't be causing the problem |
| 06:22.00 | levi | That would have disasterous results if you have anything important in your DrScheme buffer. |
| 06:23.40 | maquis | levi: i think it's all saved... or if it isn't, it's only one or two changes that aren't (i save early and often)... |
| 06:23.52 | maquis | but... i don't understand why evil won't let me do anything |
| 06:24.07 | maquis | i don't see anything suspicious in ps |
| 06:24.32 | maquis | top doesn't show anything crazy either |
| 06:24.32 | levi | It's called 'evil'. Do you need any more explanation than that? ;) |
| 06:24.52 | maquis | levi: and you're evil with the l wrapped to the front... |
| 06:25.40 | levi | Not to mention vile and live. |
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| 06:26.17 | maquis | levi: you're a pretty exciting anagram :) |
| 06:28.29 | tensai | I'm just going to kill few things and see what hapNO CARRIER |
| 06:28.42 | maquis | ~lart tensai |
| 06:29.01 | maquis | so, it's not firefox (or run-mozilla or firefox-bin) |
| 06:30.24 | maquis | tensai: the nice thing is... i can't actually kill my irssi session :) |
| 06:30.37 | maquis | (well... at least you hope that's true) |
| 06:30.53 | tensai | maquis: killall irssi. what do I care? |
| 06:32.00 | maquis | tensai: by kill i was referring to a different level of kill in that comment... :) |
| 06:32.20 | maquis | so, it wasn't drscheme or anything running from the same Eterm as drscheme |
| 06:34.38 | maquis | hmmm |
| 06:35.13 | maquis | i've systematically killed almost every process running in X... i've only got gkrellm and evilwm left to kill |
| 06:35.18 | maquis | and it's still not working |
| 06:37.18 | findlay | what? |
| 06:37.45 | maquis | well... killing evilwm and restarting X resolved it |
| 06:37.48 | maquis | findlay: dunno |
| 06:38.01 | findlay | ~lart flakey networks ~~~~~ |
| 06:38.08 | maquis | i was stuck in a desktop, couldn't get out, couldn't open up a new terminal.... etc |
| 06:40.04 | findlay | Mendelssohn is more like Schubert than Schumann. Brahms is more like Schumann. |
| 06:43.21 | findlay | I wonder if iprovo has a different backlink than oct's microwave broadcaster |
| 06:43.34 | findlay | I doubt iprovo connects to qwest |
| 06:58.22 | tensai | findlay: are you on iprovo? |
| 06:59.39 | RyanE | tensai: oc telecom |
| 06:59.45 | RyanE | that is, findlay is on oc telecom. |
| 06:59.47 | tensai | I can tell you that oct (your IP) connects through mci and eli |
| 07:00.11 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@c-67-169-244-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 07:00.12 | findlay | oct with iprovo |
| 07:00.52 | Hhhhh | iprovo rocks |
| 07:00.59 | Hhhhh | i'm getting it when I move ;) |
| 07:01.09 | Hhhhh | 5-15 Mb/s ;) |
| 07:01.24 | Hhhhh | as opposed to the 4.3Mb/s I get from Comcast |
| 07:01.27 | tensai | yeah, oct has no peer into qwest. qwest packets will transit mci. |
| 07:01.31 | Hhhhh | and I'll be paying less |
| 07:02.08 | findlay | Hhhhh: but with mstar? |
| 07:02.15 | Hhhhh | i don't know |
| 07:02.18 | Hhhhh | I think so |
| 07:02.20 | RyanE | I need Utopia to come to Highland... Not gonna happen. :( |
| 07:02.20 | tensai | for 208.187.180.0/23 anyway |
| 07:02.26 | findlay | they're no xmission |
| 07:02.44 | Hhhhh | that's fine |
| 07:03.00 | Hhhhh | i'm not politically fond of xmission anyways |
| 07:04.23 | RyanE | i'm fond of their downtown / library free wireless, and how well they communicate to their customers about outages, etc. |
| 07:05.07 | Hhhhh | anybody in the Provo area, I have an old 3Com Ethernet card, an old Yamaha sound card and an old Diamond videocard (S3 Trio64 with 1Mb VRAM), I'll take whatever, even a handshake and a "thanks" will suffice |
| 07:05.16 | Hhhhh | and you can have them |
| 07:06.20 | Hhhhh | they're not much of an upgrade but they might help a computer feel complete and centered |
| 07:06.32 | RyanE | I'd guess that if you didn't get any takers when it was *daytime*, you'll get less takers at *midnight*. :) |
| 07:06.52 | RyanE | Hhhhh: all PCI? If so, you may want to mention it. |
| 07:06.54 | Hhhhh | i'm not concerned about takers, i'd giving the stuff away |
| 07:06.59 | Hhhhh | yea, all PCI |
| 07:07.05 | Hhhhh | I mean, I' |
| 07:07.17 | Hhhhh | I mean, I'm giving it away, I'm not stressed about it |
| 07:07.24 | levi | What's politics got to do with choosing an ISP? Even if I violently disagreed with the politics of their people, I'd still be very happy with Xmission. |
| 07:07.26 | Hhhhh | if nobody wants, they go to the dumpster |
| 07:07.35 | RyanE | yeah, I understood they were free. |
| 07:07.53 | findlay | levi: what about aros? I've heard they are good |
| 07:08.04 | Hhhhh | levi, I don't care that much, I'm not fond of Microsoft but I still use VS.NET |
| 07:08.34 | Hhhhh | i'm not fond of Stallman but I use GNU stuff |
| 07:08.40 | Hhhhh | I love GNU octave |
| 07:09.04 | levi | Hhhhh: I've been meaning to try out the recent build of the new VS.NET that I got from a presentation given by the product manager of VC++. |
| 07:09.19 | Hhhhh | nice |
| 07:09.29 | levi | The presentation was pretty cool. |
| 07:09.43 | Hhhhh | M$ decided to give VS.NET 2005 Express for free for one year to anybody, free dowmnload |
| 07:10.02 | levi | I actually like a lot of things Microsoft is working on at present. They've got some smart research guys that are finally having their work come to fruition. |
| 07:10.26 | Hhhhh | just Windows Vista isn't looking that innovative though |
| 07:10.32 | levi | And I, too, think Stallman is a nutcase. |
| 07:10.40 | Hhhhh | and I cannot forgive M$ for the thing they're doing with OpenGL |
| 07:10.43 | Hhhhh | that's just horrible |
| 07:10.58 | Hhhhh | they're going to make OpenGL...run on top of DirectX... |
| 07:11.01 | RyanE | levi: I'd argue that 'extremist' is a better fit than 'nutcase'. |
| 07:11.04 | findlay | Hhhhh: well, it's probably hard to judge vista without actually seeing it |
| 07:11.17 | levi | RyanE: I think the two are orthogonal. |
| 07:11.36 | Hhhhh | findlay, the descriptions given online don't show much new stuff. I'll still get it if I can have an MSDNAA copy though |
| 07:11.46 | RyanE | levi: shades of grey, I suppose. |
| 07:12.00 | Hhhhh | just for the sake of upgrading I guess |
| 07:12.17 | levi | You can be a non-extreme nutcase, or a rather sane extremist. I think Stallman's a bit of both. |
| 07:12.20 | findlay | me has no real desire to use windows ever again |
| 07:12.28 | RyanE | Hhhhh: then you'll have 2Gig machines to give away as well, since you'll have to upgrade them... :) |
| 07:12.32 | Hhhhh | or more of an extreme nutcase |
| 07:12.51 | Hhhhh | RyanE, I have a nice desktop, it'll handle Vista quite well |
| 07:13.20 | Hhhhh | A64 3000+, 1Gb RAM, 160Gb HDD, 2xGeForce 6600GT SLI |
| 07:13.25 | Hhhhh | it can handle it |
| 07:14.10 | Hhhhh | I also have an Athlon XP 2000+, 512Mb RAM, 80Gb HDD, GeForce FX 5200 128Mb that looks like it won't |
| 07:14.12 | RyanE | Hhhhh: that's what the smiley on the end was to cover. |
| 07:14.19 | Hhhhh | but I use it for Fedora Core 4 anyways |
| 07:14.28 | Hhhhh | ;) |
| 07:15.03 | RyanE | I have to live a bit further down on the tecnology curve. It's still nice here, but the machines aren't quite as shiney. |
| 07:15.18 | findlay | if Stallman is a nutcase because of his opinions on free software, then I must be too |
| 07:15.40 | RyanE | I think Stallman is a bit militant about it, but I understand his rationale. |
| 07:15.49 | Hhhhh | findlay, do you think that people who make software and decide to sell it are hurting society and should get another job? |
| 07:16.03 | RyanE | and I admire the fact that he actually codified his 'rule' into the GPL. |
| 07:16.46 | findlay | Hhhhh: I think it's a bad idea for society, yes, but I always prefer to take a Ghandi approach because that's my style |
| 07:16.59 | Hhhhh | why is it bad? |
| 07:17.13 | Hhhhh | I'm against lock-ins, but what's bad about selling software? |
| 07:17.39 | levi | I don't think selling software hurts society, but I think intellectual property laws probably do. |
| 07:17.43 | Hhhhh | if I make something cool, and I decide to make some money off it by selling it, I don't see why I should feel remorse |
| 07:17.55 | Hhhhh | well, IP does, yea |
| 07:18.03 | Hhhhh | patenting might hurt as well |
| 07:18.06 | RyanE | Hhhhh: my argument against it is that if I buy something, especially a piece of hardware, I would like to buy *all* of it, including the right to change how the software works. Without source, that's nigh impossible. |
| 07:18.17 | Hhhhh | RyanE, you can do that |
| 07:18.21 | levi | Patenting is part of IP law. |
| 07:18.24 | tensai | Hhhhh: bad for you vs. bad for society. RMS believes everyone else put together hurts more than you gain. |
| 07:18.24 | findlay | only if it precludes hiding your source code, etc. and it promotes strange ideas about information like "intellectual property". I'm still not sure what that is. |
| 07:18.36 | RyanE | Hhhhh: how, if I have no source code? |
| 07:18.52 | Hhhhh | RyanE, there are plenty of solutions that will sell you everything, source code included |
| 07:18.57 | Hhhhh | mostly for free |
| 07:19.09 | Hhhhh | but I don't see the immorality in not opting for doing it |
| 07:19.23 | RyanE | yes, but MANY of the router companies that will now sell you hardware and give you sources, are ONLY doing it now that they are using GPL software in their hardware. |
| 07:19.45 | tensai | RyanE: and often only if they get caught |
| 07:19.47 | Hhhhh | well, there you go, they're doing it |
| 07:19.54 | RyanE | I don't think it's immoral to sell software, but it's less of a value proposition to the purchaser. |
| 07:19.56 | Hhhhh | and that's very cool |
| 07:20.07 | RyanE | if you sell it without source. |
| 07:20.09 | Hhhhh | RyanE, that's right, but it's on the buyer's choice, right? |
| 07:20.13 | findlay | yes, it hurts society, but I'm not millitant against those who sell software and install rogue, clandestine rootkits on my computer, but I'll just ignore them |
| 07:20.19 | Hhhhh | nobody is forced to buy my software |
| 07:20.37 | Hhhhh | findlay, that's also extreme, I don't like the Sony rootkit stuff |
| 07:20.56 | Hhhhh | and they should not do things that it is so obvious the customer would like to know before hand |
| 07:21.07 | RyanE | Hhhhh: it's definitely a choice, but given a choice between two products, one with source and community, and the other with the promise of the proprietary owners, I know which I'd choose. |
| 07:21.26 | Hhhhh | RyanE, and that is perfectly fine, and I have no criticism against it |
| 07:21.30 | Hhhhh | I'd do it too |
| 07:21.48 | Hhhhh | but Stallman's thinking isn't like yours |
| 07:21.49 | findlay | thankfully enough people are caught up in the open source mania that I can easily use my computer without having to pay any attention to those crazy people who want money for their software |
| 07:22.07 | Hhhhh | findlay, that's cool, and I love OSS because it gives those options |
| 07:22.46 | Hhhhh | instead of having to stay on campus doing my homework in MATLAB, I can install GNU octave and do it from the comfort of my home. I thank Stallman for that |
| 07:22.52 | RyanE | Hhhhh: I have a good chunk of hardware in my house (Home Automation hardware) that I don't have the right to modify the internals of. The company doesn't offer the software anymore. Was I harmed? Yes and no. I chose it, but didn't have a 'choice'. |
| 07:23.06 | Hhhhh | but Stallman's eloquency isn't as tempered as yours |
| 07:23.17 | levi | Stallman's views on Software are a little bit more extreme than mine, but they are not necessarily why I view him as a nutcase. |
| 07:23.34 | Hhhhh | RyanE, more OSS will balance that kind of stuff out through natural processes of supply and demand |
| 07:23.36 | RyanE | levi: I think he's semi-OCD. |
| 07:23.51 | RyanE | Hhhhh: not likely for low-volume or custom/specialty products. |
| 07:23.59 | RyanE | (small-niche) |
| 07:24.15 | Hhhhh | RyanE, then yes, you would have to pay for a custom job or do it yourself |
| 07:24.23 | findlay | stallman may be a nutcase, but you cannot write off all his invaluable contributons to society with that label |
| 07:24.27 | RyanE | I think the company in question would have had MORE sales if they'd opened up the source. |
| 07:24.29 | Hhhhh | or wait until something more friendly to your interests comes to the market |
| 07:24.43 | RyanE | findlay: agreed |
| 07:24.54 | levi | Oh, certainly not. I'm not writing off his contributions at all. Lots of nutcases have made important contributions to society. |
| 07:24.54 | Hhhhh | findlay, I've chosen to evaluate Stallman's contributions and his eloquency in seperate planes |
| 07:25.04 | RyanE | levi: hehe |
| 07:25.27 | Hhhhh | the nutcase tag he gets from me definetely does not apply to his contribution but rather to his eloquency and militantism |
| 07:25.49 | Hhhhh | if I need to refer to Stallman from the point of view of his contribution, I would not use the nutcase tag |
| 07:27.11 | *** part/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 07:27.50 | RyanE | the really nice thing about Open source products is that now, so many companies are using them to cross-compile to small systems, that the barrier to entry for doing it yourself is getting pretty low. |
| 07:27.50 | Hhhhh | I think Stallman's concern about not being able to copy a driver for something I did pay for is legitimate. I understand his upsetting, and I think his contributions steered some lines of software development on the right path |
| 07:28.22 | Hhhhh | but from there to saying that everybody who sells homebrew software is an antisocial and that they should get another job, there is a LOT |
| 07:29.03 | RyanE | Hhhhh: where did 'homebrew' get thrown into the discussion? |
| 07:29.23 | Hhhhh | Stallman is very specific in his definition of non-free software |
| 07:29.44 | Hhhhh | he doesn;t like guys like me that might make something cool, and then think "oh, I should sell it and make money off it" |
| 07:30.17 | findlay | I don't care that much about the economic feasability of OSS business models as much as I care about whether the access to technology is encumbered by artificial duties and fettered by over aggressive IP laws |
| 07:30.26 | RyanE | sure. That's fine that he doesn't like it. Doesn't stop you from doing it. |
| 07:30.40 | Hhhhh | that's right |
| 07:31.00 | Hhhhh | it doesn't stop me from saying he's a nutcase either |
| 07:31.06 | findlay | Hhhhh: stallman doesn't like it if you sell proprietary software. Even the GPL allows for "selling" software |
| 07:31.07 | Hhhhh | fair? |
| 07:31.12 | RyanE | however, what it very effectively does is keeps you from using the work of others directly without giving your changes back. I'm glad it's there, because a lot of companies are making that choice. |
| 07:31.49 | Hhhhh | you guys are right |
| 07:31.50 | RyanE | I think the majority of people don't agree with the 'all information should be free'. |
| 07:32.03 | RyanE | and 'all sofware should be free, all the time'. |
| 07:32.12 | findlay | why shouldn't they? |
| 07:32.26 | findlay | it could work |
| 07:32.33 | Hhhhh | but I don't see why I should feel that I am hurting society by selling propietary software |
| 07:32.42 | Hhhhh | propietary software is ok |
| 07:32.55 | Hhhhh | as long as you don't make a monopoly, that is |
| 07:32.55 | RyanE | it certainly *could* work. I don't think it will, but it could. |
| 07:33.11 | Hhhhh | and I like the way OSS ensures that propietary software doesn't become a monopoly |
| 07:34.05 | findlay | Hhhhh: that's where the idea of software freedom comes in |
| 07:34.11 | RyanE | Hhhhh: it doesn't ensure that. It just happens that it's the best competition to the current monopoly. |
| 07:34.17 | Hhhhh | I prefer things the way they are now. OSS and propietary software can coexist. Stallman's utopias are more restrictive of freedom than what we have now. |
| 07:34.31 | Hhhhh | RyanE, and that is how it helps avoid monopolies |
| 07:34.39 | Hhhhh | it doesn;t ensure, your're right |
| 07:34.46 | findlay | as long as you are willing to sacrifice freedom for using the software then I guess proprietary is OK |
| 07:34.49 | Hhhhh | but it sure helps avoid them |
| 07:34.50 | RyanE | yeah, like that 98% monopoly MS has for Desktop OS... |
| 07:34.58 | Hhhhh | findlay, and many people are willing |
| 07:35.26 | Hhhhh | RyanE, that is why I am giving a presentation on OSS software tomorrow to my public speaking class, more specifically in Linux |
| 07:35.28 | RyanE | Hhhhh: if you're in lock-in, you don't really have the choice. you're not willing, you're sheep. |
| 07:35.54 | Hhhhh | RyanE, that would be by your own choice though, unless there is a monopoly |
| 07:36.28 | findlay | I think the software mentality should be public domain, or very short copyright terms that turn over immediately into the public domain |
| 07:36.34 | Hhhhh | and now, whoever doesn't want a lock-in when it comes to OS's, there are other options |
| 07:36.45 | Hhhhh | findlay, I agree in the short copyrights |
| 07:36.52 | RyanE | I'd agree with that as well. |
| 07:37.10 | findlay | and no patents (: |
| 07:37.27 | Hhhhh | findlay, the public domain, I don't know, I'd still let people enjoy the commercial benefits of their products for a while before making them public domain |
| 07:37.45 | Hhhhh | yea, patents aren't good for innovation |
| 07:37.57 | RyanE | and I think that's one of the reasons for Stallman's militancy. Things are waaaay too far over on the patent/copyright side of the fence, imho. |
| 07:38.16 | findlay | Hhhhh: what benefits can you not get from your public domain software thaat you can't get with OSS licensed software? |
| 07:38.43 | Hhhhh | well, that is the problem. I don't think the problem is with the propetiary software paradigm as much as with the length og copyrights and with our current patent system |
| 07:39.20 | Hhhhh | findlay, the option of setting your own terms to the selling contracts with the buyers of your software |
| 07:39.38 | findlay | Hhhhh: but if the software starts out proprietary, what compels the authors/company to release the source when the term expires? |
| 07:39.49 | Hhhhh | be it through EULAs, copyrights, whatever, you should be able to enjoy them whichever way you want at least for a while |
| 07:40.12 | Hhhhh | findlay, nothing, nobody said people should make things easy for others |
| 07:40.21 | Hhhhh | but if you want to reverse engineer it, it should be ok |
| 07:40.33 | RyanE | findlay: they're often *not allowed to* if they're a public company... They have a fiduciary responsiblity to sell that sucker until it has NO value. |
| 07:41.00 | findlay | but in a public domain model, the only way to make money on software would be writing and maintaing it, rather than selling copies of the finished product, which is a better model philosophically, I think |
| 07:41.12 | Hhhhh | meaning,m it should be ok to reverse engineer them after the copyright expires |
| 07:41.29 | Hhhhh | it's probably better, but I don't see why it should be the norm |
| 07:41.39 | RyanE | findlay: other than the fact that profit margins are a LOT slimmer on software development / maintenance / support than they are on selling zeroes and ones. |
| 07:41.48 | Hhhhh | it's more like Stallman's utopias are more restrictive on the personal freedom of the developers |
| 07:42.18 | Hhhhh | in Stallman's utopia, what if I want to sell propietary software? I couldn't |
| 07:42.23 | findlay | Hhhhh: maybe because it's better (: |
| 07:42.27 | tensai | Hhhhh: after the copyright expires you can do whatever you want. it should always be legal to reverse engineer. |
| 07:42.38 | Hhhhh | well, it may be better, but the term "better" is very relative as well |
| 07:42.53 | RyanE | if I'm a stockholder, 'better' is maximum returns. |
| 07:42.54 | findlay | how? |
| 07:43.07 | Hhhhh | tensai, it depends on the EULA, I think EULAs should be respected for a *reasonable* period of time |
| 07:43.16 | Hhhhh | RyanE made a point |
| 07:43.26 | Hhhhh | "better" for you is "worse" for others |
| 07:43.27 | RyanE | Hhhhh: why? If there's no software patents, reverse engineering should be *totally* allowed. |
| 07:43.39 | Hhhhh | and Stallman's utopia has no room for more than one definition of "better" |
| 07:43.41 | RyanE | and I think software patents should be thrown out altogether. |
| 07:44.17 | RyanE | findlay: are you not invested in the stock market? |
| 07:44.17 | Hhhhh | RyanE, I'm talking in the case I described, in which vendors have freedom to have the EULA of their choice for a while |
| 07:44.29 | findlay | RyanE: not ... yet |
| 07:44.55 | Hhhhh | after their copyright expires, they don't HAVE to release the source code, but they cannot enforce the EULA anymore and you can reverse engineer if you want |
| 07:45.13 | Hhhhh | and if they're nice, they might release the source code as well, like id software |
| 07:45.20 | findlay | Hhhhh: but that defeats the purpose of the public domain |
| 07:45.30 | tensai | EULAs are crap. they're so one-sided it's rediculous. |
| 07:45.38 | Hhhhh | well, they might put the product in the public domain in the first place |
| 07:45.41 | RyanE | I can see it pretty clearly from both sides. As a hacker, I want ultimate freedom to tinker / share with whatever I purchase. As a stockholder in private and public companies (mainly that I have worked for), I want the companies to be as profitable as possible. |
| 07:45.45 | findlay | I'd hate to reverse engineer autocad in order to hack on it |
| 07:45.59 | Hhhhh | what I mean is that Stallman's Free Software utopia cares about the freedom of the user but not of the developer |
| 07:46.08 | tensai | findlay: I totally agree. to acquire a copyright on software I believe the source code should be left in keeping until the copyright expires. |
| 07:46.22 | RyanE | tensai: you mean in escrow? |
| 07:46.29 | Hhhhh | tensai, I'm all for more sensical EULAs |
| 07:46.30 | tensai | RyanE: that's the word |
| 07:46.38 | Hhhhh | tensai, things have gone bananas |
| 07:46.50 | tensai | Hhhhh: down with all EULAs. every. last. one. |
| 07:47.00 | RyanE | it's not uncommon for code to be escrowed for large purchasers, in case the company goes under / stops developing it, but that option is not available for the small purchaser. |
| 07:47.10 | Hhhhh | RyanE, it's more of a balance. If stockholders had it their way all the way, using software would be ridiculous |
| 07:47.11 | findlay | the monetize everything mentality that most of the free world economy seems so enamored with doesn't work that well for software |
| 07:47.27 | Hhhhh | if hackers had it their way, some developer's freedoms would be trampled with |
| 07:47.45 | findlay | hence, I don't think stockholders have the software's best interests in mind |
| 07:47.54 | RyanE | I think that for *some* software, it works quite well. I think for *system* software, and *non-niche* software, it works poorly. |
| 07:48.29 | Hhhhh | Stallman's ideology is antithetical to Bill Gates, and they're both extreme. We need some middle ground, and I suggest we let the developers have it their way for a short while (shorter than what it is now), and then EULAs and copyrights expire |
| 07:48.43 | findlay | what about when that niche software becomes commodity? |
| 07:49.02 | Hhhhh | and I'd encourage OSS to balance things out in a non-coercive, free-market-friendly manner |
| 07:49.26 | Hhhhh | findlay, why should stockholders have software's best interest in mind? |
| 07:49.33 | Hhhhh | they don't have to |
| 07:49.50 | findlay | stallman is full of tremendous vision, gates is extremely bright. I have respect for both men. |
| 07:49.50 | RyanE | findlay: eventually, there is less and less niche software. However, while there still is, I think proprietary serves it better in some respects. |
| 07:50.04 | Hhhhh | findlay, I agree, but I would prefer a middle ground |
| 07:50.16 | Hhhhh | I pretty much agree with RyanE |
| 07:50.24 | findlay | actually, both men have a strong sense of vision |
| 07:50.34 | RyanE | Hhhhh: except for my views on EULA's. Steaming Pile, those. :) |
| 07:51.03 | Hhhhh | findlay, yes, but they're orthogonal, and I think a balance should be achieve as either view is extreme and tramples some rights |
| 07:51.21 | Hhhhh | ok, nitetime |
| 07:51.28 | Hhhhh | thanks for the chat, have a good night |
| 07:51.32 | RyanE | 'night |
| 07:51.36 | *** part/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@c-67-169-244-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 07:51.51 | RyanE | He should change his nick to Zzzzz |
| 07:51.59 | tensai | heh |
| 07:52.42 | findlay | Hhhhh: it's hard to have a middle ground between corporate capitalism and the community bazaar |
| 07:52.56 | RyanE | and it's hard for Hhhhh to hear you now that he's gone. |
| 07:52.58 | findlay | totally different models |
| 07:54.09 | tensai | my company uses a RADIUS server named Radiator. it's proprietary, but written in perl and thus source code is provided. interestingly, people still provide patches and there's a community around it. |
| 07:54.24 | tensai | very much like open source, but it's not |
| 07:54.40 | RyanE | does perl's license require anything written in perl to be open source? |
| 07:54.57 | tensai | no, but the parser has to parse *something* |
| 07:55.45 | findlay | once again, after a deep discussion on OSS, I'm left wanting, left without peace or resolution. It's hard to say who or what is right. |
| 07:56.09 | findlay | tensai: proprietary to me means no source code (: |
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| 07:57.07 | tensai | findlay: that's a wrong definition then. try "exclusively owned" |
| 07:57.25 | RyanE | tensai: I actually understood what you were saying about the source being available because it was perl, but I had to go upstairs to change a diaper and didn't answer my own question fast enough. :) |
| 07:57.32 | levi | Interestingly, most software was released with source when it was written for specific machines and machines were not generally compatible with each other. |
| 07:57.39 | findlay | no source code is a pretty big sin though |
| 07:58.22 | tensai | RyanE: good ole diapers. I had to change a dripping one today, and it wasn't pretty. |
| 07:58.26 | levi | It was when competing computer companies began to use compatible hardware that they locked down the software to avoid having it ported to competitors' machines. |
| 07:58.58 | RyanE | tensai: I'm almost out of this stage. Last one, maybe another year... |
| 07:59.06 | findlay | but then the hardware makers had to start reverse engineering each other |
| 07:59.23 | findlay | to provide a common platform |
| 08:07.01 | tensai | RyanE: just one last comment before I go to sleep. if I had a horse, I bet it would taste pretty good. I could maximize my return by chopping it up and selling steaks. |
| 08:07.03 | RyanE | tensai: I don't agree that maximizing stockholder value for short-term gains is a great strategy. |
| 08:07.14 | RyanE | I'm just saying that it happens all too often. |
| 08:07.23 | tensai | or I could run it as a race horse and win money. if it's a winner, I might even make money with the lady horses. |
| 08:07.39 | tensai | yeah, I agree. I think so many people never look past the steaks, as it were |
| 08:07.50 | RyanE | but your chances of winning as a race horce are far less certain than the chance of $$$ from steaks. |
| 08:08.08 | RyanE | and if you go race horse, you ruin the possibility of steaks. |
| 08:08.12 | RyanE | not that I eat horse. :) |
| 08:08.18 | tensai | probably true, and hopefully that's where the analogy breaks down |
| 08:08.32 | tensai | nuts, now I'm tired *and* hungry |
| 08:08.41 | RyanE | hehe |
| 08:09.43 | tensai | maybe a work horse would be a better analogy. use the horse to pull a plow, turn a mill, or something. |
| 08:09.59 | RyanE | yeah, probably |
| 08:10.01 | tensai | actually, that's quite similar to operating systems |
| 08:10.15 | RyanE | but after a certain amount of time, it should go to public domain (steaks). :) ok, bad analogy again |
| 08:11.31 | tensai | it's not 6:25am, is it? |
| 08:11.46 | tensai | I think the clock on my server must be off... |
| 08:11.47 | RyanE | somewhere it is, or close to it. |
| 08:11.56 | RyanE | 'night. |
| 08:13.57 | tensai | whew. my clock's not off, my mail server is just horribly slow. but I knew that already. |
| 08:14.08 | tensai | ok. I'm really going to bed too. |
| 08:14.10 | tensai | ~lart maquis |
| 08:25.00 | maquis | tensai: what'd i do? |
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| 13:37.21 | elg | oh boy, just what I wanted. aim bots on my buddy list |
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| 14:23.53 | graphyx | anyone play with vmplayer (the free version) |
| 14:24.07 | graphyx | I want to play with it, but before I take the time to install it I want to be sure that I can create a new VM session. |
| 14:30.19 | RyanE_away | graphyx: the idea is that you can't, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. :)http://www.hackaday.com/entry/1234000153064739/ |
| 14:30.22 | brac | [How-to: VMware player modification - hack a day - www.hackaday.com _] |
| 14:30.51 | RyanE_away | I haven't tried it, as I'm currently using qemu, but I may have to do it one of these days. |
| 14:31.05 | elg | graphyx: did you get squared away with asterisk? |
| 14:31.19 | graphyx | elg: Well I was able to successfully get the two softphones at home working. |
| 14:31.26 | graphyx | but I never did get the asterisk to asterisk thing working. |
| 14:31.37 | graphyx | Jsmith was helping me out, but being at work he had work to do. |
| 14:31.48 | elg | i have a sec now |
| 14:31.59 | graphyx | My biggest frustration was that I forgo my ip address and was trying to use teh scheme that they use at work at home. which doesn't work. |
| 14:32.06 | graphyx | I use 10.3.2.x at home and work uses 10.1.2.x |
| 14:32.11 | graphyx | so that was my biggest problem. |
| 14:32.21 | elg | :) |
| 14:32.23 | graphyx | elg: The stuff I was doing was at home. |
| 14:32.27 | graphyx | and I am at work. |
| 14:32.41 | graphyx | so I do appreciate the offer, but I can't take you up on it now. |
| 14:32.46 | graphyx | But perhaps tonight. |
| 14:34.18 | xbmodder_lappy | :( |
| 14:34.34 | mheath | maquis: if it makes you feel any better, I'm more tired =\ |
| 14:34.46 | maquis | mheath: ?? |
| 14:35.03 | mheath | My lower right wisdom tooth (or rather now, lack of tooth) is still hurting really bad |
| 14:35.06 | mheath | Its been keeping me up at night |
| 14:35.20 | mheath | I didn't get much sleep last night, or the night before = |
| 14:35.37 | maquis | mheath: sorry |
| 14:36.01 | maquis | last night, i couldn't get to sleep for the life of me |
| 14:36.14 | maquis | finally fell asleep around 4 |
| 14:36.21 | mheath | I desperately want to take one of these lortabs |
| 14:36.30 | mheath | but I've got places to go, school to attend, and driving to do |
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| 14:39.09 | mheath | THe pain seems to lessen throughout the day, too |
| 14:39.16 | mheath | Like, by this evening, I'll be feeling a lot better |
| 14:39.32 | mheath | Then, when I go to bed, the pain will be starting to get worse again |
| 14:39.41 | mheath | Worst in the night+mornings |
| 14:39.41 | xbmodder_lappy | mheath, are you on pain killers? |
| 14:39.42 | graphyx | Well I think I have you both topped. |
| 14:39.50 | graphyx | my wife had our fourth kid last week. |
| 14:40.04 | maquis | graphyx: congrats |
| 14:40.13 | maquis | but yes... you're probably not sleeping much :) |
| 14:40.14 | mheath | xbmodder: Yes. |
| 14:40.42 | graphyx | so on top of him getting used to sleeping at night, eating.. my next youngest has an ear infection and wakes up every hour or so. |
| 14:40.47 | maquis | graphyx: how old is the second youngest? |
| 14:40.53 | graphyx | 17 months. |
| 14:41.01 | maquis | ah... |
| 14:41.03 | maquis | yup |
| 14:41.10 | maquis | not much sleep for quite a while, then :) |
| 14:41.37 | mheath | I'd give anything for a few moments of contented sleep, though |
| 14:41.42 | mheath | Even if it was sporadic, broken periods |
| 14:41.53 | mheath | Just to be able to be 100% relaxed and fall asleep =\ |
| 14:43.19 | xbmodder_lappy | bye |
| 15:13.35 | drfindley | http://www.userfriendly.org/static/ |
| 15:13.37 | brac | [User Friendly the Comic Strip - The Daily Static] |
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| 15:25.00 | levi | Good morning. |
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| 15:33.01 | maquis | drfindley: sad, yet true |
| 15:33.21 | maquis | so disturbing |
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| 15:37.27 | drfindley | yes yes |
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| 16:08.13 | maquis | wow... when i first go to google base, they have a link right there to a recipe for my favorite indian food |
| 16:08.17 | maquis | that's pretty good service |
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| 16:42.40 | Uncle_Jesse | lol - pandora placed Brittney Spears' "Slave" in with my Erasure station |
| 16:42.49 | Uncle_Jesse | gotta love AI |
| 16:47.59 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wade@207.135.130.2) |
| 17:07.46 | maquis | why in the world does AIM think that i want it to add the "aim bots" group? and why does it add them by default? |
| 17:08.30 | levi | maquis: Marketing, of course. |
| 17:10.05 | *** part/#utah Robdor (n=Robdor@customer67-50-41-124.veracitycom.net) |
| 17:21.26 | maquis | levi: still |
| 17:21.30 | maquis | it's stupid |
| 17:21.44 | levi | That's marketing for you. |
| 17:21.49 | maquis | haha |
| 17:22.01 | RyanE | marketing: more hair than brains. |
| 17:34.42 | Uncle_Jesse | yeah - just what I need - an AIM bot |
| 17:34.43 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@vpnpip.dal.omniture.com) |
| 17:40.21 | colera | why would you use an aim bot? |
| 17:40.24 | colera | lol |
| 17:40.27 | colera | that is wierd |
| 17:45.17 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 18:19.21 | emcnabb | does anyone here use Bear River Insurance? |
| 18:19.25 | harleypig | colera: There used to be an aim infocombot ... you could play the old infocom games via aim. |
| 18:23.57 | jsmith-away | emcnabb: I do |
| 18:24.15 | graphyx | emcnabb: I did. |
| 18:24.25 | graphyx | Until they wouldn't insure my new old car. |
| 18:24.28 | graphyx | said it was too sporty. |
| 18:24.33 | graphyx | So we went with geico |
| 18:24.41 | emcnabb | how have you guys liked them? |
| 18:24.46 | graphyx | it was a 91 mercury capri xr2 |
| 18:25.02 | emcnabb | I know price-wise they're pretty good |
| 18:25.11 | emcnabb | how about dealing with them? |
| 18:25.16 | jsmith-away | emcnabb: I was a little worried about using a geographically non-diverse insurance company, but the price was right. |
| 18:25.18 | emcnabb | (I guess all insurance companies suck though) |
| 18:25.29 | jsmith-away | emcnabb: I didn't have any problems at all with the one claim I've made |
| 18:26.02 | jsmith-away | emcnabb: In fact, my only beef with them is that they require automatic withdrawal from your bank account |
| 18:26.18 | emcnabb | really? |
| 18:26.28 | jsmith-away | Yeah, at least they did when we signed up. |
| 18:26.33 | jsmith-away | You'll wanna ask about that. |
| 18:26.42 | jsmith-away | Other than that though, they've been good to me. |
| 18:26.46 | sjansen | ~hug ex |
| 18:26.47 | ibot | ACTION hugs ex |
| 18:26.53 | emcnabb | jsmith-away, thanks for the input |
| 18:27.04 | jsmith-away | np |
| 18:35.44 | *** join/#utah drewbono (n=andrew@c-24-2-95-76.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:38.55 | graphyx | emcnabb: They were fine for us, but to be honest all we ever did was send them a check. |
| 18:39.36 | *** join/#utah elg (i=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 18:39.49 | elg | -lart sjansen |
| 18:39.57 | elg | heh, that rhymes |
| 18:40.23 | graphyx | -lart ~rlart |
| 18:56.02 | sjansen | -lart graphyx |
| 18:56.41 | sjansen | ~language brac |
| 18:56.43 | ibot | ACTION grabs brac by the ear and washes brac's mouth out with soap |
| 18:59.29 | elg | -rmlart |
| 18:59.30 | brac | What a crazy fool! Did you mean |help stats? |
| 18:59.37 | elg | um, no |
| 19:00.10 | elg | -modlart remove |
| 19:05.44 | sjansen | -help stats |
| 19:05.44 | brac | no help for topic stats |
| 19:05.51 | sjansen | -help modlart |
| 19:05.51 | brac | no help for topic modlart |
| 19:05.59 | sjansen | -help elg |
| 19:06.00 | brac | no help for topic elg |
| 19:06.20 | elg | -help lart |
| 19:06.20 | brac | Lart: The lart plugin allows you to punish/praise someone in the channel. You can also add new punishments and new praises as well as delete them. For the curious, LART is an acronym for Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool. |
| 19:06.20 | brac | Usage: punish/lart <nick> <reason> -- punishes <nick> for <reason>. The reason is optional. |
| 19:06.21 | brac | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:06.21 | brac | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:06.40 | elg | i would feel more comfortable with a confirmation. |
| 19:06.50 | elg | brac, you are less perfect than lore |
| 19:06.50 | brac | alright |
| 19:10.01 | elg | word is the new superman movie trailer will be attached to harry potter |
| 19:12.00 | hatchmt | There's a new superman movie? |
| 19:12.07 | elg | there will be next summer |
| 19:12.30 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (n=sjk36@simpsons.cs.byu.edu) |
| 19:13.44 | sjansen | -punish elg for introducing brac |
| 19:14.34 | elg | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348150/ |
| 19:14.36 | brac | [Superman Returns (2006)] |
| 19:15.36 | sjansen | In this episode, superman discover the wonders of sodium blockers and adult diapers! |
| 19:17.33 | sjansen | " When this project was originally in pre-production in the mid-1990s, Tim Burton was attached to direct, Nicolas Cage was attached as Superman, Jack Nicholson as Lex Luthor and Sandra Bullock as Lois Lane." <-- Now that would have been one tripped out SuperMan movie. |
| 19:17.46 | elg | lol |
| 19:18.10 | elg | we watched charlie finally the other day |
| 19:18.25 | sjansen | and the chocolate factory? |
| 19:18.44 | elg | my verdict: wierd, occasionally hilarious, too much like wacko jacko |
| 19:18.53 | elg | I liked the original better |
| 19:19.02 | sjansen | too much effect, not enough story telling or acting |
| 19:19.04 | elg | and I was disappointed with most of the music, I think elfman can do better |
| 19:19.17 | sjansen | the music was pathetic |
| 19:22.09 | elg | read somewhere he wasn't thinking wacko jacko, and afterwards was like oh wow, yeah |
| 19:22.15 | elg | I don't believe a word of that |
| 19:24.54 | *** join/#utah Robdor (n=Robdor@customer67-50-41-124.veracitycom.net) |
| 19:33.46 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:43.40 | levi | Blah. So, the only CS class available to me next term is Fundamentals of Data Communication. |
| 19:44.34 | levi | I guess this'll give me a chance to get the GE stuff out of the way. |
| 19:47.38 | sjansen | o/~ On the good ship Lollipop. ~/o |
| 20:02.49 | harleypig | Anybody used this? http://cryopid.berlios.de/ CryoPID allows you to capture the state of a running process in Linux and save it to a file. This file can then be used to resume the process later on, either after a reboot or even on another machine. |
| 20:02.51 | brac | [CryoPID - A Process Freezer for Linux] |
| 20:07.41 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 20:10.16 | jlp_work_ | sounds like the old undump functionality... used to be you would build gnu emacs, load up all of your lisp that you wanted, and then make it dump core... then you would "undump" the core file back into an executable that you could run. it would start with all that junk pre-loaded |
| 20:10.17 | sjansen | sounds cool but scary |
| 20:10.52 | jlp_work_ | it's been so long since I built emacs without the comfort of a port or package that I don't even know if you still do that sort of thing |
| 20:11.46 | findlay | sjansen is easily frightened |
| 20:14.24 | jlp_work_ | pretty cool that you don't need any support in your program for it... I've used checkpointing functionality before using, e.g., condor libraries, but you have to relink your program |
| 20:14.38 | sjansen | findlay: There's alot of state to capture there, some of it pretty tricky. |
| 20:15.24 | harleypig | It claims to be able to save your irssi session and he's working on saving an entire screen session (all pty's) as well. |
| 20:15.41 | harleypig | he also says you don't have to be root or install a kernel module or anything. |
| 20:16.12 | harleypig | Apparently, you can even save all the loaded libraries it needs to run so it can run on a system that doesn't have those libraries in the same place. |
| 20:16.33 | harleypig | It's not clear if the libraries have to be installed or not. |
| 20:17.22 | sjansen | It looks like it's capable of statically linking them into the frozen binary. |
| 20:19.33 | RyanE | all I can say is 'wow'. |
| 20:20.48 | jlp_work_ | pretty "cool" |
| 20:24.24 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 20:28.02 | *** join/#utah markl__ (i=mark@dsl093-225-127.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:39.14 | findlay | so what is it? |
| 20:40.08 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 20:43.38 | *** part/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 20:44.45 | levi | I wonder if it continues to share libraries after resume, or if they are thereafter private copies? |
| 20:47.36 | levi | It's a cool utility, to be sure, but not particularly awe-inspiring. Being able to detect the presence of shared libraries and use those rather than its own static copies would be nifty, though. |
| 21:05.15 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 21:08.03 | *** join/#utah drewbono (n=andrew@c-24-2-95-76.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:12.58 | levi | Any UVSC students present? |
| 21:13.35 | Robdor | I am |
| 21:14.13 | levi | You taken your Fine Arts class yet? |
| 21:19.58 | levi | I'm trying to guess how much work different classes require to decide how many to sign up for. |
| 21:20.09 | *** join/#utah phinux (n=phinux@hemlock.cs.byu.edu) |
| 21:22.24 | Bradipo | levi: Any chance you can argue that computer programming is a fine art? |
| 21:23.00 | levi | Bradipo: Not a chance. There are a couple that look interesting, though, like Photography and Intro to Film. |
| 21:23.06 | phinux | Well, looking at modern art today I'd say it takes more effort. And if you indent your code it's probably prettier too. |
| 21:23.16 | Bradipo | I recommend photography. |
| 21:23.30 | Bradipo | Kind of fun to learn how to develop film in the dark room. |
| 21:23.47 | spr | ~lart performance lab |
| 21:23.47 | levi | Does it require purchasing a film camera? |
| 21:23.50 | Bradipo | Yes. |
| 21:23.54 | Bradipo | Want to buy mine? :-) |
| 21:24.02 | levi | How much? |
| 21:24.05 | Bradipo | I have a film SLR that is collecting dust. |
| 21:24.35 | Bradipo | It's a Canon Rebel. |
| 21:25.04 | Bradipo | I bought it just for that class. |
| 21:25.04 | levi | I think I'd enjoy a photography class, but I don't want to spend a ton on a camera when I already have a digital one that works well enough for me. |
| 21:25.16 | Bradipo | How much is a ton? |
| 21:25.36 | *** join/#utah webbles (n=tdr@cyanide.cs.byu.edu) |
| 21:25.51 | levi | 2000 pounds? I don't know, I haven't thought about how much I'd be willing to spend on a class. |
| 21:25.53 | Bradipo | I bought the camera new for $275. |
| 21:26.19 | levi | Did you take it at UVSC or somewhere else? |
| 21:26.22 | Bradipo | UVSC. |
| 21:26.27 | Bradipo | http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=4656 |
| 21:26.31 | levi | So, you'd recommend it? |
| 21:26.34 | Bradipo | Check out the rebel, non digital... |
| 21:26.45 | Bradipo | I suppose it depends on the teacher. |
| 21:26.48 | Bradipo | But I would recommend it. |
| 21:26.50 | Bradipo | It was fun. |
| 21:27.00 | Bradipo | But my idea of fun may not coincide with yours. :-) |
| 21:27.18 | Bradipo | You can get a Rebel new for $200 it looks like. |
| 21:27.19 | Bradipo | With a lens. |
| 21:28.21 | levi | Hmm. I'm tempted, but $200 plus film and such is a big chunk of cash for me right now. |
| 21:28.41 | goozbach | ~lart albino |
| 21:29.41 | levi | Looks like they sell them sans-lens for $99 used. |
| 21:30.19 | *** join/#utah Josh_F (n=chatzill@206.126.161.15) |
| 21:32.04 | levi | Yow, $7000 lenses. |
| 21:33.41 | levi | Bradipo: Did you buy the camera while you were taking the class, or did you get it beforehand? |
| 21:35.52 | *** join/#utah mheath (n=mheath@c-24-2-81-30.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:44.08 | Josh_F | anyone know of a good commandline editor for .rtf files? |
| 21:50.27 | *** part/#utah webbles (n=tdr@cyanide.cs.byu.edu) |
| 21:57.27 | spr | Josh_F, I think there is one called ted |
| 21:59.35 | Josh_F | i'm looking for one i can run in console, vim would be fine if it would ignore the formatting syntax |
| 22:03.29 | *** part/#utah Robdor (n=Robdor@customer67-50-41-124.veracitycom.net) |
| 22:07.01 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 22:11.50 | *** join/#utah graphyx_home (n=mike@c-67-169-246-4.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:11.58 | graphyx_home | hey elg |
| 22:12.10 | elg | hi |
| 22:12.42 | graphyx_home | I just pmed you. |
| 22:17.02 | Bradipo | levi: I got the camera for the class because we couldn't use digital. |
| 22:17.06 | Bradipo | I already had a digital camera. |
| 22:17.44 | Bradipo | The reason why you can't use digital is because you actually do dark room work with the film. |
| 22:17.47 | levi | Bradipo: Were there any specifications about what sort of film camera and lens were required? |
| 22:17.52 | Bradipo | Nope. |
| 22:17.59 | Bradipo | They recommended SLR of course. |
| 22:18.07 | Bradipo | Actually, yes. |
| 22:18.27 | levi | You have to have manual control over a bunch of settings, don't you? |
| 22:18.29 | Bradipo | You do need to be able to set things manually, so I suppose that kind of rules out point anc click. |
| 22:18.37 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 22:18.59 | Bradipo | It was worth it to me to take something that was actually interesting to fulfill the requirement though. |
| 22:19.11 | levi | Yeah. |
| 22:19.23 | Bradipo | They also taught the basics of good photography. |
| 22:19.37 | Bradipo | perspective, rule of 3rds, framing etc... |
| 22:21.39 | levi | What were the assignments like? |
| 22:22.14 | Bradipo | Take pictures. |
| 22:22.20 | Bradipo | Develop them in the dark room. |
| 22:22.27 | Bradipo | Take the best one and put it on card stock. |
| 22:22.41 | levi | Hmm, looking at the schedule, I won't be able to take it this term, as it conflicts with the only CS class I can take this time. |
| 22:22.46 | Bradipo | Usually the assignment dealt with one of the principles. |
| 22:22.54 | Bradipo | Like lighting and stuff. |
| 22:24.04 | Bradipo | They only used b&w film too. |
| 22:24.13 | Bradipo | Apparently, developing color film is a lot more complex. |
| 22:25.01 | Bradipo | About the most tedious part of the class was having to learn all of the major names in the history of photography and what style they used. |
| 22:25.11 | Bradipo | Just a bunch of memorization, kind of sucked. |
| 22:25.21 | Bradipo | But the rest was fun. |
| 22:30.08 | levi | Well, I'll certainly keep my option to take the class open. |
| 22:32.52 | levi | Time to get myself to class now. |
| 22:39.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Hmm, a question for anyone who can answer |
| 22:39.28 | ScytheBlade1 | I've got an embedded board here, booting off of a CF card |
| 22:39.42 | ScytheBlade1 | kernel option: console=ttyS0,15200n8 |
| 22:39.49 | ScytheBlade1 | It boots the kernel, starts init |
| 22:40.11 | ScytheBlade1 | it processes the boot script just fine, echos out all of the stuff the script tells it to |
| 22:40.25 | ScytheBlade1 | Then, when it processes the runlevel script (3), nothing is printed out period |
| 22:40.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Despite the script being run (I can tell due to the lights on the wifi card attached) |
| 22:41.01 | ScytheBlade1 | Any clues as to why once it passes the boot script, the terminal essentially dies? |
| 22:42.14 | Bradipo | Shouldn't that be 115200? |
| 22:42.27 | ScytheBlade1 | sorry, typo |
| 22:42.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Yes, it's set at 115200 |
| 22:42.51 | Bradipo | You told the kernel to redirect console messages, but not the rest of the OS maybe? |
| 22:43.01 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm getting console messages though |
| 22:43.23 | ScytheBlade1 | Hence my confusion :/ |
| 22:43.55 | Bradipo | Console messages? |
| 22:43.59 | Bradipo | You're getting kernel messages you mean? |
| 22:44.17 | ScytheBlade1 | No, but that's because I told the kernel not to ;) |
| 22:44.29 | ScytheBlade1 | if I re-did the extlinux.conf file and removed the quiet option, I'd get them |
| 22:44.36 | Bradipo | So, what console messages are you getting? |
| 22:44.44 | ScytheBlade1 | whatever my boot scripts output |
| 22:44.50 | Bradipo | Or rather, which messages for the console are showing up on the terminal... |
| 22:45.02 | Bradipo | What are you expecting on the terminal? |
| 22:45.06 | ScytheBlade1 | as console=ttyS0, everything sent to the default terminal |
| 22:45.19 | ScytheBlade1 | The things that the script for runlevel 3 outputs |
| 22:45.26 | ScytheBlade1 | and a login prompt (both of which I'm not getting) |
| 22:45.35 | Bradipo | Did you setup a getty on the terminal? |
| 22:45.40 | Bradipo | If not, you won't get a login prompt. |
| 22:45.48 | ScytheBlade1 | yes, I did |
| 22:45.49 | jsmith-away | ScytheBlade1: Check your /etc/inittab file |
| 22:45.59 | ScytheBlade1 | jsmith-away, for? It's a hand-written file |
| 22:46.54 | ScytheBlade1 | All of six lines long |
| 22:47.08 | Bradipo | So you have a getty in there for ttyS0? |
| 22:47.13 | ScytheBlade1 | yup |
| 22:47.18 | ScytheBlade1 | c1:12345:respawn:/sbin/agetty 115200 ttyS0 linux |
| 22:47.34 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (n=emcnabb@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 22:47.36 | Bradipo | Did you login and see if the getty is actually running? |
| 22:47.43 | ScytheBlade1 | I can't. |
| 22:47.56 | Bradipo | No remote login? Bummer... |
| 22:48.02 | ScytheBlade1 | Not as of yet ;) |
| 22:48.04 | Bradipo | Kind of hard to tell then. |
| 22:48.11 | ScytheBlade1 | It has two wifi cards, two NICs, and a serial port |
| 22:48.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Once I can get SSH up, sure |
| 22:48.29 | ScytheBlade1 | But for some reason ssh doesn't start, and it's not telling me why either ;) |
| 22:49.14 | RyanE | ScytheBlade1: how did you setup your 6 line /etc/inittab to have ttyS0 if you don't have serial console, and don't have SSH yet? |
| 22:49.22 | ScytheBlade1 | It's on a CF card |
| 22:49.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Remove the CF card, pop it in this computer, mount, edit, unmount, replace |
| 22:49.51 | RyanE | I'd put the machine into DHCP mode, auto-start SSH, and figure it out that way. |
| 22:50.17 | ScytheBlade1 | It's an embedded board running on a r/o root filesystem ;) |
| 22:50.30 | ScytheBlade1 | SSH won't start, and I can't tell why, because of mentioned issue |
| 22:50.41 | RyanE | keyboard? |
| 22:50.55 | ScytheBlade1 | no keyboard/mouse/monitor |
| 22:50.55 | RyanE | probably not |
| 22:50.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Just a null modem cable |
| 22:51.44 | RyanE | I would turn off the kernel serial console, try it again, as it could still be holding ttyS0, not allowing getty to use it. |
| 22:52.09 | RyanE | you would not see the kernel boot messages, but you would hopefully see the login: prompt |
| 22:52.19 | ScytheBlade1 | ...doh |
| 22:52.23 | ScytheBlade1 | Found the problem |
| 22:52.50 | RyanE | so you had no /dev ? |
| 22:52.53 | ScytheBlade1 | I had a /dev |
| 22:52.56 | ScytheBlade1 | It was just empty ;) |
| 22:52.59 | RyanE | hehe |
| 22:53.04 | RyanE | cool. |
| 22:59.19 | Bradipo | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:59.46 | ScytheBlade1 | Just slightly |
| 23:00.21 | Bradipo | What hardware? OpenBrick? |
| 23:00.33 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 23:00.35 | ScytheBlade1 | sec |
| 23:00.40 | Bradipo | You wish... |
| 23:00.52 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.soekris.com/net4521.htm |
| 23:00.54 | brac | [net4521] |
| 23:00.59 | Bradipo | Ahh, soekris. |
| 23:01.14 | Bradipo | I've always wanted a few of those to play with. |
| 23:01.26 | ScytheBlade1 | It's a very nice board |
| 23:01.37 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 23:01.42 | ScytheBlade1 | It was originally going to be my router |
| 23:01.46 | Bradipo | Question is, on a board that small, do you actually get 100Mbps out of it? |
| 23:02.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Benchmarks with linux, in bridging mode + iptables is about 77mbps |
| 23:02.10 | Bradipo | Booting off CF is nice though. |
| 23:02.22 | Bradipo | Once you have your configuration, you can easily replace it. |
| 23:02.35 | Bradipo | Just update the CF image, burn to CF and reboot the thing. |
| 23:02.38 | ScytheBlade1 | yeah |
| 23:03.15 | ScytheBlade1 | I've got two wifi cards in this thing |
| 23:03.19 | ScytheBlade1 | the two integrated NICs |
| 23:03.24 | Bradipo | You making it a WAP? |
| 23:03.30 | ScytheBlade1 | and another slot for another cardbus card |
| 23:03.33 | ScytheBlade1 | I could easily |
| 23:03.41 | Bradipo | How much was it? |
| 23:03.55 | ScytheBlade1 | One of the wifi cards is a mini-PCI, an intel 2915 a/b/g, and it has connectors for an external antenna |
| 23:04.06 | ScytheBlade1 | sec |
| 23:04.11 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.soekris.com/how_to_buy.htm |
| 23:04.12 | brac | [How To Buy] |
| 23:04.31 | Bradipo | Comes with a case? |
| 23:04.34 | ScytheBlade1 | I got the net4521-30 + case |
| 23:04.38 | ScytheBlade1 | read the table below |
| 23:04.49 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 23:04.52 | Bradipo | Nice deal. |
| 23:05.01 | ScytheBlade1 | Most every one of their models are PoE also, so you don't need a power supply if you don't have one |
| 23:05.18 | Bradipo | I don't see any wifi on this model. |
| 23:05.24 | ScytheBlade1 | on the 4521? |
| 23:05.32 | Bradipo | net4521-30: 133 Mhz CPU, 64 Mbyte SDRAM, 2 Ethernet, 1 Serial, CF socket, 1 Mini-PCI socket, Dual PC-Card socket, PoE. |
| 23:05.43 | ScytheBlade1 | dual PC-Card and one Mini-PCI |
| 23:05.50 | Bradipo | Ahh. |
| 23:06.05 | ScytheBlade1 | ha, I got ssh! |
| 23:06.06 | ScytheBlade1 | ! |
| 23:06.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Now to give it a hostkey |
| 23:08.08 | Bradipo | How big is this in dimensions? |
| 23:08.22 | ScytheBlade1 | It should be listed on the site |
| 23:08.28 | Bradipo | Oh, there it is... |
| 23:09.38 | Bradipo | Did you get the wifi from them or just commodity from a store? |
| 23:09.59 | ScytheBlade1 | they don't sell wifi cards, but I got both of mine through newegg |
| 23:10.15 | ScytheBlade1 | a D-Link DWL-G650 and an intel PRO Wireless 2915 a/b/g |
| 23:10.25 | ScytheBlade1 | cardbus//mini-pci respectively |
| 23:10.31 | Bradipo | I won't touch D-Link. |
| 23:10.38 | Bradipo | The last one I got sucked. |
| 23:10.40 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 23:10.43 | ScytheBlade1 | this one works just fine ;) |
| 23:10.45 | Bradipo | Intel isn't bad though. |
| 23:11.01 | ScytheBlade1 | the intel card is rather good |
| 23:11.04 | Bradipo | I couldn't even get the D-Link working in Windows. |
| 23:11.07 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 23:11.12 | *** join/#utah rkm28 (n=richard@216.194.126.84) |
| 23:11.12 | ScytheBlade1 | the d-link works flawlessly here |
| 23:11.26 | ScytheBlade1 | it's hosting an AP and everything |
| 23:11.46 | colera | harleypig: that is funny, i don't think i would want to you aim for playing games |
| 23:12.28 | colera | anyone know if there is a way to add a network printer in windows through the command line? |
| 23:12.36 | ScytheBlade1 | you can |
| 23:12.54 | ScytheBlade1 | I have the little script over at work though, and no access to that from here though ;) |
| 23:13.05 | colera | ScytheBlade1: do you know howi can't seem to get the sytax correct or something |
| 23:13.12 | ScytheBlade1 | colera, paste me your syntax |
| 23:13.55 | colera | ScytheBlade1: alright, lemme do it again i was trying it yesterday and i don't remember everything i tried |
| 23:14.01 | ScytheBlade1 | k |
| 23:16.31 | ScytheBlade1 | whee |
| 23:16.36 | ScytheBlade1 | SSH working :) |
| 23:17.08 | Bradipo | I take it there is no logging? |
| 23:17.14 | Bradipo | Does it uses a memfs? |
| 23:17.33 | ScytheBlade1 | no logging atm |
| 23:17.42 | colera | rundll32 printui.dll,PrintUIEntry /dd /c\\machine /m "Hp Laserjet 8" /h "Intel" /v "windows 2000" |
| 23:17.44 | ScytheBlade1 | I'll configure network logging soon though |
| 23:18.03 | ScytheBlade1 | colera, it's been a while, but from the looks of it |
| 23:18.21 | ScytheBlade1 | colera, /c\\machine <-- you're trying to map a machine, not a printer |
| 23:18.29 | ScytheBlade1 | colera, /c\\machine\printer |
| 23:18.36 | ScytheBlade1 | note that you may need quotes |
| 23:18.45 | colera | hmm |
| 23:19.28 | Goshen | I put up a flyer for the install party this weekend at http://drroller.com/Mandriva_Install_Party_2005.pdf |
| 23:19.41 | Goshen | if people want to print and distribute that around work or whatnot |
| 23:19.48 | ScytheBlade1 | + |
| 23:19.53 | ScytheBlade1 | oops, sorry, disregard |
| 23:19.58 | Goshen | Its in Sandy |
| 23:20.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Not far at all |
| 23:21.11 | Bradipo | Free Food? |
| 23:21.13 | Bradipo | What kind... |
| 23:21.27 | Goshen | Haven't decided yet |
| 23:21.36 | Goshen | fruit tray, veggie tray, pizza |
| 23:21.42 | Goshen | any requests? :) |
| 23:21.55 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd debate coming, but I don't have a laptop to bring ;) |
| 23:22.02 | Bradipo | There is a Japanese restaurant just west of there... |
| 23:22.14 | Goshen | just west? who? |
| 23:22.23 | ScytheBlade1 | I know which one you're talking about too |
| 23:22.23 | Goshen | There is high note on 7th east |
| 23:22.28 | ScytheBlade1 | I forget the name... |
| 23:22.37 | Goshen | I am on 13th |
| 23:22.44 | Bradipo | Yeah, west of 13th, east of 7th. |
| 23:22.56 | Bradipo | Right by Rafaels and Chin Wah. |
| 23:22.57 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@hemlock.cs.byu.edu) |
| 23:29.11 | colera | Goshen: what's so great about mandriva? |
| 23:35.40 | jlp_work | it's from France? oh, no, wait. |