| 00:00.14 | xbmodder | the official compiled version, yaar? |
| 00:00.28 | mheath | xbmodder: why does it matter who compiled it? |
| 00:02.03 | mheath | xbmodder: You claim its lighter, yet its coded in a resource intensive interpreted scripting languge |
| 00:02.12 | xbmodder | not all of us have VS.net 6 |
| 00:02.47 | mheath | xbmodder: Then get it from one of the many people who compile it for windows |
| 00:02.52 | mheath | silverex.info, for instance |
| 00:03.46 | mheath | And if you look at the TODO for circe, it seems they're working on implementing a lot of the features (like scripting) that make up a lot of the 'bloat' (if you can call it that) in XChat |
| 00:04.55 | TimRiker | ~waleslap Jayce^ |
| 00:04.58 | TimRiker | ~whaleslap Jayce^ |
| 00:05.04 | mheath | *shrug* I just didn't see a reason to even give it a try =\ |
| 00:05.19 | TimRiker | ibot: literal cmd: whaleslap (.*?) |
| 00:05.20 | ibot | "cmd: whaleslap (.*?)" is "($tensai): I'll just grab a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh and slap $tensai over the head with it....." |
| 00:05.21 | mheath | It looks like an ugly, dumbed down version of xchat |
| 00:05.24 | TimRiker | hmm. |
| 00:05.29 | TimRiker | ibot: quit |
| 00:05.40 | TimRiker | ibot: die |
| 00:08.00 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 00:08.00 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feeds --- Jeff Waugh will be speaking at BYU on Nov 15: save the date! (more info will be forthcoming) |
| 00:08.00 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 00:09.56 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 00:13.02 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 00:13.02 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feeds --- Jeff Waugh will be speaking at BYU on Nov 15: save the date! (more info will be forthcoming) |
| 00:13.02 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 00:13.04 | goozbach | irssi |
| 00:13.21 | goozbach | ibot: get back to your post! MAGGOT! |
| 00:13.22 | ibot | sir! yes SIR! |
| 00:13.34 | TimRiker | ~whaleslap goozbach |
| 00:13.35 | ibot | I'll just grab a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh and slap goozbach over the head with it..... |
| 00:13.37 | hans | colloquy has more features, including bounce in doc when someone says my name, but irssix is, well, irssi |
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| 00:14.03 | goozbach | gui+IRC = stupid |
| 00:14.06 | goozbach | ;) |
| 00:14.17 | mrpull | bouncing dock items are irritating |
| 00:14.25 | goozbach | if you aren't ircing under screen, you aren't irc'ing |
| 00:14.38 | Tene | agreed |
| 00:14.56 | goozbach | can you make a terminal bounce on a bell? |
| 00:15.24 | hans | goozbach: iTerm had that, except the morons made it keep bouncing |
| 00:15.35 | hans | which is of course completely useless and irritating |
| 00:15.47 | goozbach | you want it to bounce, then stop? |
| 00:16.02 | goozbach | you need a ball full of sand |
| 00:16.21 | goozbach | it'll bounce once or twice then lose momentum and die |
| 00:17.14 | hans | well, i lied |
| 00:17.26 | hans | you said beep... I still think a couple of bounces would do it |
| 00:17.37 | hans | but it's not nearly as annoying as neverending bouncing on new output (like tail) |
| 00:17.57 | goozbach | ok that is annoying |
| 00:18.16 | hans | anyway, I used to screen/irssi, but then I spent too much time worrying about backlogs |
| 00:18.20 | goozbach | bah! |
| 00:18.43 | hans | I think irssix is much lighter-weight though, so that's a big win |
| 00:18.45 | goozbach | I don't read more than 2-4 screens back |
| 00:19.10 | goozbach | you want light weight? |
| 00:19.12 | mrpull | i was justing looking at irssix screenshots and thought.... ugly |
| 00:19.14 | goozbach | use telnet |
| 00:19.33 | hans | ssh and telnet also take too much effort |
| 00:19.35 | mrpull | i used to think that OSX was so sexy and now I guess I just dont |
| 00:20.11 | hans | i don't think it's ugly, I think it's simple and useable. it's irssi |
| 00:20.32 | Tene | I just use the awaylog to tell me if there's anything I care about. |
| 00:20.43 | Tene | irssiproxy is quite nice too |
| 00:21.04 | hans | anyway, I'm divorcing irc from my terminal and that's that (this week, anyway). so it's irssix or colluquy |
| 00:21.21 | hans | (doing so allows me to minimize irc and get some work done) |
| 00:22.45 | mrpull | work schmurk |
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| 00:24.45 | hans | ok, that's annoying. I just got java5 and installed it, but it didn't replace 1.4.2. that's the last thing I need, two versions of java |
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| 00:25.39 | sjansen | ~travolta Jayce^ |
| 00:25.41 | ibot | ACTION replaces Jayce^ with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power |
| 00:25.48 | sjansen | YAY! |
| 00:32.17 | jsmith | Anybody going to the PLUG meeting tonight? |
| 00:32.29 | jsmith | If so, wanna get some free books to hand out as prizes? |
| 00:34.18 | mrpull | what books? the topic doesn't appeal to me much. |
| 00:34.56 | Jayce^ | jsmith, you still at work? |
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| 00:35.29 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 00:38.08 | jsmith | Dang... just missed Jayce |
| 00:38.14 | jsmith | mrpull: Asterisk :-) |
| 00:38.26 | sjansen | jsmith: where you at? |
| 00:38.47 | mrpull | makes sense i suppose. i'm tempted to buy a copy despite not having a need to use asterisk :) |
| 00:39.23 | sjansen | jsmith: I'm thinking about going to Plug, and as I'm in Bountiful I'll be passing just about anything. |
| 00:39.24 | jsmith | sjansen: Old Wordperfect campus -- but I caught Jayce^ on his cell. |
| 00:39.39 | sjansen | okay, won't worry about it then |
| 00:44.32 | sjansen | Anyone know the Plug topic? |
| 00:44.59 | synic | Lisp ? |
| 00:45.18 | mrpull | sjansen: lisp |
| 00:45.39 | sjansen | Oo, so this is a chance to throw rotten fruit at levi? |
| 00:45.58 | mrpull | heh. i cant go for fear of being converted. |
| 00:46.12 | mrpull | lisp is so ugly... it cant possibly be useful |
| 00:51.05 | hans | it can, that's the scary part |
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| 01:11.25 | lars-ut | ~emulate farmer hogget |
| 01:11.26 | ibot | That'll do, pig. That'll do. |
| 01:12.30 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 01:20.56 | hans | ~say hans |
| 01:20.57 | ibot | hans |
| 01:21.22 | hans | ~say hans |
| 01:21.24 | ibot | hans |
| 01:21.30 | *** part/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 01:43.56 | *** join/#utah tensai (n=tensai@kite.zmonkey.org) |
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| 01:58.36 | amcnabb | See y'all at the plug meeting. |
| 01:59.39 | tensai | ~whaleslap plug meetings |
| 01:59.40 | ibot | I'll just grab a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh and slap plug meetings over the head with it..... |
| 02:07.24 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 02:12.15 | hans | ~lart vontrapp |
| 02:13.08 | JoshH | so hans, did qwest get you fixed or what? |
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| 02:15.35 | jsmith | JoshH: You have to go read his blog -- |
| 02:18.57 | JoshH | link? |
| 02:19.49 | JoshH | nm found it |
| 02:20.17 | JoshH | but i dont see anything about the qwest issue |
| 02:21.16 | jsmith | Hmmmn... looks like he removed the post. |
| 02:21.36 | jsmith | Basically, it's a wiring problem in the jack inside the wall |
| 02:22.18 | JoshH | heh, guess he had to pay the 85 then |
| 02:22.43 | jsmith | Nope, he figured it out before they came |
| 02:23.10 | JoshH | ah, thats better |
| 02:26.10 | maquis | i have to say... one of the things i find interesting about this sony rootkit issue is the number of people who don't know about it |
| 02:26.27 | JoshH | only geeks/techies will know or care |
| 02:26.31 | JoshH | sad but true |
| 02:26.48 | maquis | but.. it affects everyone who runs windows |
| 02:27.31 | JoshH | ya, but joe sixpack doesn't really care what happens to his windows ex pee as long as he can still play deer hunter, see his porn, and check his email |
| 02:27.33 | jsmith | But he was still upset that they were gonna charge him the 85 |
| 02:27.45 | maquis | i don't understand how it can be that i don't run windows, and therefore can't be affected directly, and i don't go and buy music cds very often, and yet... i care more than other people |
| 02:28.13 | JoshH | its just because most people don't really care about issues that are related to computers |
| 02:41.11 | jnbek_ | people are happy in their ignorance |
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| 02:42.25 | *** part/#utah perry753 (n=perry753@c-24-4-29-183.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 02:57.33 | maquis | "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it," he asked? "The software is designed to protect our CDs from unauthorized copying, ripping." |
| 03:00.50 | maquis | It plays well in Peoria, that is, until someone points out that all these elite pirate geniuses have to do is drop the CD into any Macintosh or Linux computer, and be bothered with none of it. T |
| 03:00.54 | maquis | that's good to know... |
| 03:05.55 | ScytheBlade1 | It's still in redbook |
| 03:06.23 | ScytheBlade1 | It just has a data session appended to it (so if you can't read multisession discs...), which has a fun autorun |
| 03:06.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Kill off the autorun, have your player play the redbook...or just rip it |
| 03:06.59 | ScytheBlade1 | "rootkit" is rather optional in this case ;) |
| 03:10.08 | JoshH | the only cd's i ever insert into a windows machine are for games anyway |
| 03:10.25 | JoshH | and autorun is off |
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| 03:15.34 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 03:28.03 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 03:30.48 | tensai | ~drown hans |
| 03:31.32 | tensai | I filled out the form to request an uninstaller. they sent me an email telling me to install their service pack. |
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| 03:32.11 | maquis | tensai: sony? |
| 03:32.23 | tensai | maquis: yeah |
| 03:32.25 | maquis | ah |
| 03:32.31 | maquis | and you said? |
| 03:32.38 | tensai | not that I actually have some retarded root kit installed |
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| 03:32.46 | maquis | i'm curious |
| 03:33.02 | maquis | if someone returns the cd, can they get the rootkit uninstalled? |
| 03:33.10 | maquis | or is returning the cd against EULA? |
| 03:33.20 | maquis | ~lart emcnabb |
| 03:33.28 | tensai | they had a link in case I *really* wanted to uninstall it. I filled out that form too. haven't heard back yet. |
| 03:33.34 | maquis | haha |
| 03:33.38 | tensai | they said I would hear back within 24 hours |
| 03:34.10 | Goshen | Talking about the Sony Rootkit? |
| 03:35.07 | tensai | here's the form to fill out. http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/form9.html |
| 03:35.21 | tensai | "Please Describe why you need to make an uninstall request" |
| 03:35.35 | maquis | because i don't like rootkits |
| 03:35.47 | Goshen | That phone home |
| 03:35.48 | tensai | as if I *need* permission to uninstall some heap of dung software! |
| 03:36.11 | Goshen | Where do I sign on for the class action? |
| 03:36.23 | graphyx | I think it is Italy. |
| 03:36.36 | Goshen | sure so far |
| 03:36.45 | graphyx | So if you are living in Italy I believe that you could get on board for the class action law suit. |
| 03:36.51 | graphyx | Bradipo: You game? |
| 03:38.08 | JoshH | tensai: say its because you want to make a personal copy of the cd |
| 03:41.20 | tensai | JoshH: their software can make copies of the CD. the faq says that the resulting cd can't be copied. |
| 03:41.42 | tensai | there's also a form to fill out if you want to copy the file to your iPod |
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| 03:42.15 | tensai | this whole Sony thing really just shows exactly what DRM is all about |
| 03:42.41 | JoshH | i think its funny that the publicity is about some crappy cd that hopefully not many people would want anyway |
| 03:42.58 | tensai | and who wants to be that every single cd with this copy "protection" is available on p2p networks |
| 03:43.07 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:43.12 | tensai | JoshH: there's 15-20 cds with it |
| 03:43.26 | xbmodder_ | I don't blame sony |
| 03:43.34 | xbmodder_ | I blame the republicans ;-) |
| 03:43.43 | JoshH | ya but when i first heard the story, the first thing i thought of is who would pay money for that cd anyway |
| 03:43.56 | JoshH | i cant remember exactly who it was though |
| 03:43.59 | tensai | http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004144.php |
| 03:44.00 | maquis | tensai: i'm getting a parse error in that statement |
| 03:44.06 | maquis | (a couple back) |
| 03:44.13 | tensai | s/be/bet/ |
| 03:44.34 | tensai | maquis: sorry. I know how touchy your parser is. :D |
| 03:44.37 | JoshH | actually, now that i think about it |
| 03:44.44 | JoshH | i havent bought a cd for like 4 years |
| 03:44.55 | xbmodder_ | CDs=expensive |
| 03:45.21 | JoshH | imo a brand new cd should cost about 3 bucks |
| 03:45.21 | tensai | neither have I. after the music I got from SXSW 2005 I don't see much need. |
| 03:45.28 | JoshH | maybe 2 |
| 03:45.32 | xbmodder_ | but most people I know have like ~300 CDs |
| 03:45.38 | JoshH | the days of paying 18.99 for them should be long gone |
| 03:45.40 | xbmodder_ | I think itms should STFU |
| 03:45.49 | xbmodder_ | replace them with nappy |
| 03:45.58 | xbmodder_ | I hart napster |
| 03:46.30 | tensai | what we really need is compulsory distribution licensing. I guarantee that would benefit artists and consumers alike. |
| 03:49.16 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 03:50.02 | JoshH | or we need a way for artists to promote and distribute their music themselves (like the internet) without depending on record labels and clearchannel |
| 03:50.15 | Supaplex | speaking of eff, is that the citizen detainment^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpatriot act? |
| 03:51.52 | tensai | JoshH: I agree that would be great, but a large number of people just don't want to choose. they want to be told what to like. |
| 03:52.08 | jsmith | JoshH: Things like MagnaTune are helping in that regard. |
| 03:52.17 | jsmith | tensai: I agree |
| 03:52.46 | JoshH | basically what it comes down to is that 90 percent of people are stupid, apathetic, or (usually) both. if that wasn't the case, the world would be quite different. |
| 03:55.06 | xbmodder_ | JoshH: true. If people were asked to vote on such a thing I bet most would choose in favor of corporations |
| 03:59.44 | emcnabb | xbmodder, how's it going? |
| 04:05.37 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 04:07.00 | xbmodder_ | emcnabb: great, yourself? |
| 04:07.49 | emcnabb | doing well; just out here in your stomping ground |
| 04:07.54 | xbmodder_ | lol. |
| 04:07.56 | xbmodder_ | where? |
| 04:08.16 | emcnabb | Cupertino |
| 04:08.16 | xbmodder_ | you staying with someone? |
| 04:08.19 | xbmodder_ | Seems to be a resedential line? |
| 04:08.30 | emcnabb | in a hotel (basically a motel) |
| 04:08.35 | xbmodder_ | oh. |
| 04:08.44 | emcnabb | they are cheap here |
| 04:08.47 | xbmodder_ | I'm guessing your teaching? What class? |
| 04:08.57 | tensai | hans: holy cow, your domain is a spam magnet |
| 04:09.11 | emcnabb | a gurulabs class for HP |
| 04:09.18 | emcnabb | GL314 (troubleshooting) |
| 04:09.34 | emcnabb | I'm at one of their big campuses out here |
| 04:09.54 | maquis | emcnabb: have you paid a visit to 1 infinite loop? |
| 04:10.32 | emcnabb | not yet :-( |
| 04:10.33 | emcnabb | it looks like I'm going to be busy tomorrow night |
| 04:10.33 | hans | tensai: yes, lots of spam |
| 04:10.34 | hans | but I don't see any of it |
| 04:10.35 | maquis | busy doing? |
| 04:10.38 | emcnabb | the Cheesecake Factory is in the opposite direction |
| 04:10.43 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 04:10.43 | maquis | haha |
| 04:10.50 | hans | my only defense is bogofilter and it works like a charm |
| 04:10.52 | emcnabb | I'm going to hear Colin Powell speak |
| 04:10.56 | maquis | cool! |
| 04:11.08 | emcnabb | a student in the class has an extra ticket |
| 04:11.16 | emcnabb | I guess it is a question and answer session |
| 04:11.21 | hans | is it a problem? bandwidth or anything |
| 04:11.38 | hans | i didn't think about spammers going for the backup mx's |
| 04:12.07 | maquis | emcnabb: i wanna go! |
| 04:12.44 | emcnabb | I guess this student is good friends with the person in charge of coordinating these forums at the college/university |
| 04:13.16 | emcnabb | recently the president of Pakistan was there, and I guess they were able to talk afterwords for quite a long time with him/her |
| 04:13.50 | maquis | that's *way* cool! |
| 04:16.20 | tensai | hans: not a problem so far. only a couple have even reached DATA, I don't think any have been queued |
| 04:17.52 | xbmodder_ | emcnabb: *envy* |
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| 04:22.32 | tensai | hans: nope, one did get through |
| 04:24.48 | mheath | argh |
| 04:24.59 | mheath | You know how I was complaining about getting 25 messages in a day? |
| 04:25.12 | mheath | 65 messages in a few hours.. |
| 04:25.20 | maquis | mheath: yes... that does happen |
| 04:25.34 | maquis | just wait til they all start flame-wars at the same time |
| 04:25.35 | Supaplex | sort them into labels/folders |
| 04:27.02 | mheath | maquis: Apparently I joined one of them in the middle of a flamewar =\ |
| 04:27.22 | mheath | maquis: You know how people say Stallman is opinionated and obsessive about ideals? |
| 04:27.42 | maquis | mheath: that sounds like an on-topic flame-war... |
| 04:27.46 | mheath | Alfred M. Szmidt makes Stallman look like he's extremely uninterested. |
| 04:27.57 | maquis | i can't remember the last on-topic flame-war i've seen... |
| 04:28.06 | maquis | the last few i can think of involved things like personal finance |
| 04:28.27 | mheath | "Marcus, I'm not even sure how to talk to you. Just remove that idiotic tag at once (unless I did it right). You have no business calling what I am doing illegal, by force or sudden. I find your attitude disgusting" |
| 04:33.33 | tensai | maquis: I heard it was spotted near Cincinatti earlier today |
| 04:33.45 | mheath | These people are all amazingly brilliant coders |
| 04:33.52 | mheath | I'd feel nervous writing anything to this list =\ |
| 04:34.13 | ScytheBlade1 | which list? |
| 04:34.30 | tensai | mheath: don't worry. you never provoke passionate responses. :) |
| 04:34.40 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: bug-hurd, gnu-system-discussion |
| 04:34.49 | ScytheBlade1 | ah |
| 04:34.54 | ScytheBlade1 | yeah, that'd do it |
| 04:35.03 | mheath | er *discuss |
| 04:35.16 | ScytheBlade1 | You ought to subscribe to php-dev |
| 04:35.32 | ScytheBlade1 | It's like the soap opera of the internet |
| 04:35.36 | mheath | I mean, how would one go about writing a reply to Roland McGrath and not worry about sounding like a moron? :D |
| 04:36.25 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: I'm starting to realize why more work isn't getting done on the Hurd |
| 04:36.50 | mheath | It's entire development process is controlled by a select few who, although brilliant, are extremely opinionated and argumentative. |
| 04:36.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Wow, rings a bell... |
| 04:37.55 | mheath | And the poor structure of the Mach kernel limits third party development |
| 04:38.16 | mheath | Someone can't come in, read a tutorial on writing drivers, and easily create a GNU Mach driver; its more complex than that |
| 04:38.43 | mheath | When Hurd switches over to the L4 kernel, it will fix all that..... |
| 04:38.58 | mheath | However, these guys all spend half their time arguing over how much development work should be put into the L4 branch! |
| 04:39.03 | mheath | And if the L4 Branch is official! |
| 04:39.45 | emcnabb | when is it switching over? |
| 04:40.08 | emcnabb | is there a fixed timeline? |
| 04:40.20 | tensai | soon as quit bickering and arguing about who killed who |
| 04:41.27 | mheath | emcnabb: Nope, not at all. |
| 04:42.12 | mheath | Last I heard, they'd gotten to the point where they could run the core Hurd servers on it, and print out some text. |
| 04:42.12 | emcnabb | that's never good |
| 04:42.37 | mheath | (which is a really, really, far distance from fully porting Hurd) |
| 04:43.24 | mheath | A lot of work is going into abstracting or completely rewriting certain portions of the Hurd |
| 04:43.52 | emcnabb | how many core developers are there? |
| 04:44.15 | mheath | Hurd L4? I'm really not sure =\ |
| 04:44.43 | mheath | A lot of the main developers for mach and for Hurd are disappointingly uninterested in working on the L4 port |
| 04:44.59 | mheath | (like Alfred Szmidt, Thomas Bushnell, etc) |
| 04:45.18 | emcnabb | why's that? |
| 04:45.34 | mheath | Roland McGrath (who coded almost all of GNU LibC as you know it) used to be an active hurd developer, but that dropped off in the last few years |
| 04:45.44 | mheath | emcnabb: Good question :D |
| 04:47.57 | mheath | What they need is a structure that allows for better and more efficient collaboration |
| 04:48.01 | mheath | and a bigger development team |
| 04:48.22 | mheath | More people intelligent enough to be given commit access =\ |
| 04:48.35 | mheath | They sit and bicker for ages over trivial patches |
| 04:49.27 | mheath | Theres a giant flamewar going on on the bug-hurd mailing list, because one of the developers created a revision tag marking where it was before a developer committed some changes, and he used an insulting name for the tag. |
| 04:51.43 | xbmodder | is: Requests per second: 2485.63 [#/sec] (mean) good? |
| 04:52.06 | mheath | For what? |
| 04:52.06 | mheath | O.o |
| 04:52.11 | xbmodder | apache |
| 04:52.21 | xbmodder | HTML page |
| 04:53.12 | xbmodder | apache HTML page requests. |
| 04:53.35 | mheath | As in, you get a "GET /whatever.html" 2485.63 times a second? :D |
| 04:54.06 | xbmodder | yeah |
| 04:54.31 | xbmodder | "GET http://xbmodder.us/RHCE.html" 2485.63 a second |
| 04:57.57 | mheath | xbmodder: Hmm, By the way, why do you have KEYWORD="~x86" in an ebuild for a program thats main feature is supposedly portability? |
| 04:57.58 | mheath | O.o |
| 04:58.34 | mheath | xbmodder: and your ebuild references doc/HACKING.txt which doesn't exist |
| 05:00.05 | tensai | hans: a lot of spammers target backup mxes first because most don't have local account info |
| 05:00.31 | xbmodder | mheath, because we are all to poor to test it out on other systems |
| 05:00.39 | xbmodder | mheath, the ebuild is an update to an old one |
| 05:00.39 | mheath | ..... |
| 05:00.42 | mheath | It's coded in python. |
| 05:00.46 | mheath | The testing has been done for you. |
| 05:00.48 | xbmodder | and it works -- thats what matters |
| 05:00.58 | xbmodder | mheath, wxpython is not 100% portable |
| 05:01.21 | mheath | xbmodder: Yes. But your program depends on wxpython |
| 05:01.35 | ScytheBlade1 | ...hence his point.... |
| 05:01.48 | mheath | So, if a particular Architecture doesn't support wxpython, then your ebuild will stop anyway. |
| 05:02.34 | xbmodder | mheath, I get it! |
| 05:02.39 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: He made his entire ebuild very specific to one architecture, and says it was because wxpython isn't portable to all the architectures that Gentoo supports. |
| 05:02.43 | xbmodder | mheath, but the question is do you love the client |
| 05:03.12 | xbmodder | mheath, well wxpython is ported to many archs but not fully |
| 05:03.25 | xbmodder | meaning our program could go *crap* |
| 05:03.56 | mheath | xbmodder: Well, some weird funkiness happened when I tried to connect to an IRC server I frequent (Ultimate IRCd) |
| 05:04.15 | mheath | And it was irritating how much memory and CPU it was using (quite a bit more than XChat) |
| 05:04.32 | mheath | Python is a bit of a hog, compared to nice and compiled C.. |
| 05:04.43 | mheath | But other than that, it was OK. |
| 05:04.55 | xbmodder | thank you |
| 05:05.12 | xbmodder | isn't xchat like 6 years older than this client? |
| 05:05.18 | xbmodder | how old is xchat |
| 05:05.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Copyright reads 1998 |
| 05:05.58 | mheath | xbmodder: well, it kinda troubles me |
| 05:06.06 | xbmodder | ack 6.5 years older |
| 05:06.10 | xbmodder | mheath, what does? |
| 05:06.13 | mheath | It says "The mission of the Circe Project is to create a easy to modify and use IRC client that runs cleanly on many operating systems" |
| 05:06.17 | mheath | That implies that portability is a goal |
| 05:06.42 | mheath | Yet, we've already established (thanks to you bringing up the WXPython problem) that it is far less portable than XChat |
| 05:07.13 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216.190.206.130) |
| 05:07.21 | ScytheBlade1 | Something kinda obvious here: once a project has reached it's goal, then it's complete, and you'll note that Circe isn't complete... |
| 05:07.30 | ScytheBlade1 | It's trivial, but I think given time.. ;) |
| 05:08.02 | ScytheBlade1 | xbmodder, think it'd run on OSX? |
| 05:08.03 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: Its fundamentally flawed. It's coded in a language that makes it impossible to ever reach its goal :) |
| 05:08.29 | xbmodder | mheath, now are you happy? |
| 05:08.34 | xbmodder | ScytheBlade1, rumour is that it does. |
| 05:08.53 | ScytheBlade1 | Has it been tested on OSX at all? I have a 10.2 machine at school that I could test it on |
| 05:08.58 | xbmodder | mheath, I fixed the ebuild. |
| 05:09.03 | xbmodder | ScytheBlade1, that'd be REALLY nice. |
| 05:09.27 | ScytheBlade1 | I wonder if OSX has python by default |
| 05:09.57 | xbmodder | prolly not wxpython 2.6 or above though |
| 05:10.38 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: you'd have to get all the development tools and build it for the Mac |
| 05:10.47 | ScytheBlade1 | What are the needed dev tools? |
| 05:10.53 | xbmodder | xCode |
| 05:11.00 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: their little IRC program requires the most cutting edge test release of WXPython, which you can only get by source |
| 05:11.02 | ScytheBlade1 | I've been meaning to install that anyways |
| 05:11.13 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: To compile WXPython? GMake, Glibc, GCC, etc. |
| 05:11.16 | ScytheBlade1 | and I'm okay with compiling stuff my source, you should have seen my php ./configure :P |
| 05:11.23 | xbmodder | lol |
| 05:11.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Actually |
| 05:11.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Here's hoping it doesn't go onto a second line |
| 05:11.39 | ScytheBlade1 | ./configure --prefix=/usr/local/php/5.0.5 --with-apxs2=/usr/local/apache/current/bin/apxs --with-libxml-dir=/usr/local/libxml/2.6.22/ --with-openssl --with-zlib --enable-bcmath --enable-calendar --enable-dba --with-flatfile --with-inifile --enable-dbase --enable-ftp --with-gd=/usr/local/gd/2.0.33/ --with-jpeg-dir=/usr/local/jpeg/6b/ --with-png-dir=/usr/local/libpng/1.2.8/ --with-freetype-dir=/usr/local/freetype/2.1.10/ --with-imap=/ |
| 05:11.40 | ScytheBlade1 | usr/local/imap/2004g/ --with-imap-ssl --with-mssql=/usr/local/freetds/0.63/ --with-mysql=/usr/local/mysql/current/ --with-mysql-sock=/tmp/mysql.sock --with-mysqli=/usr/local/mysql/current/bin/mysql_config --with-ncurses --enable-soap --with-pear --with-ldap=/usr/local/openldap/2.3.11/ --with-pgsql=/usr/local/postgresql/8.1.0/ --with-snmp=/usr/local/net-snmp/5.1.3.1/ |
| 05:11.45 | xbmodder | holy. |
| 05:11.48 | ScytheBlade1 | Every dep there I hand-compiled and installed |
| 05:11.56 | ScytheBlade1 | I have no issues with doing stuff by hand from source ;) |
| 05:12.12 | xbmodder | wow. |
| 05:12.24 | xbmodder | do you enjoy compiling? |
| 05:12.38 | ScytheBlade1 | There's a reason behind this madness actually |
| 05:12.50 | ScytheBlade1 | example: --with-freetype-dir=/usr/local/freetype/2.1.10 <-- I version everything, and then as you can tell with apache: |
| 05:12.54 | xbmodder | multiple versions of libraries installed? |
| 05:13.02 | ScytheBlade1 | --with-apxs2=/usr/local/apache/current/bin/apxs <-- symlink the current version to current/ |
| 05:13.35 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 05:13.36 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: man, you need to get GNU Stow. I think you'd like it =\ |
| 05:13.43 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 05:13.52 | ScytheBlade1 | I enjoy a challenge every now and then though ;) |
| 05:13.56 | hans | tensai: right, and may not have the primary spam defenses, as a sort of back door |
| 05:14.04 | hans | although in this case you might actually reduce my spam. :) |
| 05:14.06 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: no, it doesn't take the compiling away |
| 05:14.06 | ScytheBlade1 | And when the IMAP client requires some manual source tweaks to compile... ;) |
| 05:14.14 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: Stow is a method of better organizing all the stuff you have installed |
| 05:14.41 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, does it do it any better than my current setup? Ability to switch from version to version by changing a symlink? |
| 05:14.46 | mheath | You install into /usr/stow/freetype/2.1.10/ |
| 05:14.49 | mheath | Then you call stow |
| 05:15.01 | tensai | hans: heh. could be. |
| 05:15.06 | mheath | And stow sets up symlinks in / and /usr, to make it appear as if Freetype-2.1.10 is installed in / or /usr |
| 05:15.22 | mheath | You can switch from active version to version with a simple command |
| 05:15.30 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, tempting, but I'm perfectly fine with how I have it done now ;) |
| 05:15.49 | ScytheBlade1 | and crap, it looks like the mac at school is turned off, so I can't check |
| 05:16.31 | xbmodder | install darwin at home |
| 05:16.36 | ScytheBlade1 | On what PPC box? |
| 05:16.39 | ScytheBlade1 | PearPC doesn't count |
| 05:16.52 | xbmodder | ScytheBlade1, X86 |
| 05:17.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, since that's a really legal thing I want to do currently. |
| 05:17.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Mostly because I'd have to backup 80GB to do it. |
| 05:17.42 | mheath | By the way |
| 05:17.48 | ScytheBlade1 | " |
| 05:17.48 | ScytheBlade1 | The Xcode Tools 2.1 release is a full update of the Xcode development tools suite. It requires Mac OS X v10.4.x. For complete installation instructions, please see the Release Notes." |
| 05:17.48 | mheath | I've got a Sun computer for sale |
| 05:17.57 | ScytheBlade1 | +1 reason why I need to convince my school to buy 10.4 |
| 05:18.01 | mheath | Ultra1 |
| 05:18.04 | xbmodder | mheath, how much |
| 05:18.07 | xbmodder | ScytheBlade1, darwin |
| 05:18.13 | xbmodder | ScytheBlade1, not OSX86 |
| 05:18.55 | mheath | xbmodder: $50 plus shipping |
| 05:19.00 | mheath | 20 inch monitor, keyboard, mouse... |
| 05:19.27 | ScytheBlade1 | I find it funny that my school can acquire Win2k3 for $30 with $0.47 CALs |
| 05:19.33 | ScytheBlade1 | Yet a single copy of OSX 10.4 will be $40 |
| 05:19.34 | xbmodder | thats cool. |
| 05:19.40 | xbmodder | stupid apple |
| 05:19.46 | xbmodder | dude install darwin |
| 05:19.48 | xbmodder | its the same thing |
| 05:19.53 | xbmodder | just add GUI |
| 05:20.03 | xbmodder | :-/ |
| 05:20.12 | mheath | xbmodder: ......He's testing portability of your program. |
| 05:20.22 | mheath | xbmodder: you were going on about how portability varied from arch to arch |
| 05:20.38 | mheath | Yet now you're telling him to run the same OS on a completely different arch, and it will be 'the same thing' |
| 05:20.52 | ScytheBlade1 | lol relax |
| 05:21.05 | maquis | ~kick teenagers |
| 05:21.08 | ibot | bugger off sod! |
| 05:21.14 | ScytheBlade1 | lol @ maquis |
| 05:21.17 | ScytheBlade1 | Not that I blame you or anything |
| 05:21.39 | mheath | maquis: is that directed at us? :) |
| 05:21.42 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm beginning to see why the talk of an invite-only #utah-old-farts started up when I found this channel ;) |
| 05:22.01 | maquis | mheath: 3 guesses.... and the first two don't count |
| 05:22.23 | maquis | ScytheBlade1: it started up long before you found this channel |
| 05:22.29 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, ah |
| 05:23.07 | ScytheBlade1 | ...which makes you qualify for -old-farts. |
| 05:23.24 | xbmodder | umm. What about me. I'll be left in #utah |
| 05:23.24 | maquis | ScytheBlade1: he'll still be a teenager... |
| 05:23.36 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, sarcasm, heh |
| 05:24.58 | mheath | maquis: : Meh, I'll potentially die for your country before you graduate from college :) |
| 05:25.14 | maquis | mheath: when do you go active-duty? |
| 05:25.22 | mheath | maquis: 7 months |
| 05:25.39 | mheath | (hence the reason I'll be legally an adult - joining the military legally emancipates you from your parents if you join when 17) |
| 05:25.51 | maquis | interesting... i didn't know that |
| 05:26.06 | mrpull | mheath: do they have to permit you to sign up? |
| 05:26.13 | maquis | i thought you were referring to turning 18 |
| 05:26.16 | mheath | mrpull: at 17, yes. |
| 05:26.44 | mheath | mrpull: My dad was in the military for 30 years, though; I doubt he'd stop me from signing :D |
| 05:27.33 | maquis | mheath: i'm sure that after you go through your training, you will be more mature... |
| 05:27.40 | mrpull | maquis: why didn't you come to plug this evening? |
| 05:27.55 | mrpull | mheath: dataw0lf? |
| 05:28.03 | mheath | mrpull: dataw0lf is army. |
| 05:28.08 | maquis | mrpull: i've got class til 7, and i don't get dinner before that... so, it's a bit difficult to make it |
| 05:28.08 | mheath | jarhead is a marine :) |
| 05:28.28 | maquis | mrpull: were you there last week? i didn't know most of the people there, so i wasn't sure who i knew from #utah... |
| 05:28.31 | mheath | maquis: I've already gone through training evolutions tougher than what I'll experience in Navy basic training and my A school. |
| 05:28.31 | maquis | er |
| 05:28.32 | maquis | last month |
| 05:28.38 | mrpull | mheath: gotcha. i knew he was armed forces but didn't know what branch |
| 05:29.16 | maquis | mheath: well... i was being hopeful, at least |
| 05:29.18 | ScytheBlade1 | xbmodder, yeah, I *must* have 10.4 to even use their latest dev tools, which I don't have access to. I'll try to bug the needed people more (I've been bugging them for a year about it) |
| 05:29.25 | mheath | I've already completed all the coursework I'll be doing in said A School (though that was just for my self interest; I'll have to redo all of it when I'm actually in the classes there) |
| 05:29.32 | *** part/#utah mrpull-x (i=xmjake@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 05:29.38 | *** join/#utah Linoobux (n=LiNoobux@c-67-186-201-139.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:29.42 | *** join/#utah usynic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 05:30.31 | mheath | maquis: I know that saying this is often a mark of immaturity itself, but if you knew me in person I think you'd find me a lot more mature in contrast to my peers. |
| 05:30.55 | mheath | I sometimes get carried away online, or get a bit ecentric about supid things. |
| 05:31.36 | mheath | And the training evolutions I've participated in thus far *have* matured me. |
| 05:32.10 | maquis | mheath: i don't deny that people are very different in person than online (i'm pretty different myself), and i know that the very fact that you're planning on serving your country means that you're more mature than most people your age (well, the fact that you want to do that for a reason other than "ooh! i get to blow stuff up!") |
| 05:32.34 | Newsome | hey. Is there anything wrong with blowing stuff up? |
| 05:32.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Not really, no :) |
| 05:32.49 | xbmodder | nope! |
| 05:33.03 | ScytheBlade1 | I have fond memories of dropping an old, broken 386 off of a roof several times :) |
| 05:33.07 | mheath | maquis: The SN Heath, USNSCC, who was in command of a company of 30 guys, is very different from #utah's mheath :) |
| 05:33.15 | maquis | Newsome: no... but having a reason besides that for joining the military is pretty impressive for a teenage guy... |
| 05:33.17 | mrpull | blowing stuff up isn't a sin is it? |
| 05:33.25 | xbmodder | Why would I want a monkey (george bush) to tell me to commit suicide? I want a genius to tell me that. |
| 05:33.32 | maquis | mheath: that's good to hear.... |
| 05:33.32 | Newsome | maquis: true. |
| 05:33.39 | ScytheBlade1 | mrpull, in some religion, I'm sure it is, though I can't name one off the top of my head |
| 05:34.27 | mheath | Newsome: you weren't the jarhead, were you? |
| 05:34.32 | mheath | Argh! This is driving me insane |
| 05:34.49 | mheath | I was talking with someone on here around 6AM before I left for school |
| 05:34.49 | xbmodder | bigdog_ut, ls |
| 05:34.55 | mheath | USMC, Retired |
| 05:34.58 | bigdog_ut | whatz up |
| 05:35.08 | Newsome | mheath: nope. I wouldn't do very well in the military. |
| 05:35.14 | mheath | A few weeks ago |
| 05:35.22 | Newsome | I'm always smarting off to just about everyone |
| 05:35.26 | maquis | ScytheBlade1: some of the eastern religions believe that stepping on an ant is bad... i'm sure they would have problems with blowing things up as well :) |
| 05:35.26 | mheath | now I can't remember who it was, and it's driving me insane. |
| 05:35.43 | mheath | Newsome: Hahah. At the boot camp I went to, there were guys who were smarting off to just about everyone.... |
| 05:35.54 | emcnabb | harleypig? |
| 05:35.54 | mheath | After the 100th situp or so, they started to learn. |
| 05:35.56 | xbmodder | If I was in the military the enemy would have a high end sun cluster and our camp would be a 20 foot deep crater! |
| 05:36.02 | mheath | emcnabb: Thank you! |
| 05:36.08 | emcnabb | just a guess |
| 05:36.09 | mheath | Thats him |
| 05:36.10 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, living things yes, but otherwise? I never much cared for my world civ class |
| 05:36.21 | bigdog_ut | xbmodder, ping |
| 05:36.27 | xbmodder | PONG! |
| 05:36.34 | bigdog_ut | whatz up |
| 05:36.52 | maquis | ScytheBlade1: if you can manage to blow something up without hurting any living beings whatsoever... i suppose they wouldn't have any problems with it |
| 05:37.09 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, yeah, "blowing things up", not "blowing people up" |
| 05:37.17 | xbmodder | Is killing furry little animals a sin?> |
| 05:37.18 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, sorry for the ambiguity, heh |
| 05:37.28 | Newsome | do SCO Execs count as "people"??? |
| 05:37.33 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 05:37.35 | xbmodder | yeah! |
| 05:37.38 | maquis | ScytheBlade1: still... in blowing things up, in most places, you'd get a couple insects at least :) |
| 05:37.44 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, haha, point well taken ;) |
| 05:38.00 | maquis | Newsome: do they bleed? i've always been curious about that |
| 05:38.05 | xbmodder | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:38.30 | maquis | ScytheBlade1: in some religions, they actually go around the streets with a broom sweeping insects out of the way before they step so that they don't hurt any |
| 05:39.00 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, yeah, I do remember that, I just didn't think it applied to non-living beings. again, the whole ambiguity thing |
| 05:40.44 | xbmodder | in some religions you go to heaven for killing people |
| 05:42.05 | emcnabb | xbmodderism |
| 05:42.12 | xbmodder | circe.nick125.com/bugs |
| 05:42.25 | xbmodder | emcnabb, > |
| 05:42.25 | xbmodder | ? |
| 05:42.58 | emcnabb | in the xbmodderism religion, that is especially true |
| 05:43.22 | xbmodder | sure :) |
| 05:43.27 | xbmodder | bbiaf |
| 05:45.22 | ScytheBlade1 | blah, some erased my saved nmap scans, so I can't WOL the mac :/ |
| 05:46.15 | mheath | I should head to sleep |
| 05:46.30 | mheath | Tomorrow, mheath 2.0 is being released (featuring less teeth!) =\ |
| 05:46.37 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 05:46.42 | maquis | ??? |
| 05:46.51 | maquis | gnight mheath |
| 05:47.13 | maquis | who would bomb a wedding? |
| 05:47.17 | mheath | maquis: Wisdom teeth removal =\ |
| 05:47.19 | mheath | G'night |
| 05:47.23 | maquis | mheath: i'm sorry |
| 05:47.32 | maquis | good luck with that |
| 05:49.04 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, are the teenagers here really that bad overall? |
| 05:49.09 | Newsome | ~curse BYU |
| 05:49.10 | ibot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, BYU ! |
| 05:49.48 | maquis | ScytheBlade1: not always.... we're just old people who don't enjoy certain things about teenagers... |
| 05:49.59 | maquis | and i have to deal with it all day with my roommates... |
| 05:50.13 | maquis | Newsome: what'd they do? |
| 05:50.36 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, fair enough. Just curious (and feeling all too self-consious) |
| 05:50.52 | ScytheBlade1 | less typos and spelling inability. |
| 05:51.38 | Newsome | maquis: I'm just cursing the uselessness of my 2 degrees from BYU, the fact that BYU doesn't pay worth jack, and the fact that working at an educational institution destroys one's ability to get a decent job in the business world. |
| 05:52.26 | maquis | Newsome: programming? sysadmin stuff? what are you looking for/ |
| 05:53.27 | Newsome | I'm looking for sysadmin stuff |
| 05:53.31 | maquis | hmmm |
| 05:53.36 | maquis | can't help you there |
| 05:55.38 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:55.57 | maquis | #@$# |
| 05:56.03 | maquis | stupid voters |
| 05:56.32 | maquis | some people just don't understand!!!! |
| 05:59.34 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 05:59.40 | mrpull | hrrmm... i'm looking for a sysadmin |
| 05:59.42 | xbmodder | ScytheBlade1, I am known to be. |
| 06:00.06 | ScytheBlade1 | xbmodder, hmm? what is that in response to? |
| 06:00.35 | xbmodder | newsome should get RHCE ;-) |
| 06:00.48 | xbmodder | mrpull, can they work via SSH? |
| 06:01.11 | maquis | tensai: this is just really frustrating |
| 06:01.14 | mrpull | xbmodder: nope. |
| 06:01.17 | ScytheBlade1 | xbmodder, do you know any place where I could get that only heavily discounted compared to the prices listed on their website? I poked around, took the basic tests, and scored as "very deep knowledge" in most every category |
| 06:02.44 | xbmodder | ScytheBlade1, umm |
| 06:02.45 | xbmodder | PM me |
| 06:11.18 | emcnabb | Newsome has his RHCE |
| 06:31.47 | xbmodder | move to the bay area? |
| 06:32.02 | xbmodder | emcnabb, whats his e-mail address? |
| 06:32.43 | xbmodder | I failed every category on the pretests |
| 06:32.46 | xbmodder | and I still do :-/ |
| 06:32.58 | ScytheBlade1 | okay, well |
| 06:33.01 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm off to bed |
| 06:35.21 | tensai | ~entertain me |
| 06:39.31 | xbmodder | ? |
| 06:39.32 | xbmodder | no |
| 06:45.25 | maquis | i'll need it back in an hour or two |
| 06:45.34 | maquis | but you can play with it if you want :) |
| 06:54.43 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 06:55.16 | levi | Good evening. |
| 07:08.19 | levi | Anyone home? |
| 07:14.40 | maquis | hi levi |
| 07:14.48 | levi | Heya. |
| 07:15.13 | maquis | sup? |
| 07:20.50 | levi | I went to the colloquium today. It was good. :) |
| 07:21.13 | levi | Weird to be back at BYU, though. |
| 07:22.15 | maquis | wpw |
| 07:22.15 | maquis | er |
| 07:22.16 | maquis | wow |
| 07:22.23 | maquis | i was going to go, then i saw that it was in the hfac |
| 07:22.28 | levi | ... |
| 07:22.32 | maquis | and i decided i didn't feel like getting lost for a week |
| 07:22.35 | levi | Why would that stop you? |
| 07:22.42 | levi | It wasn't hard to find. :P |
| 07:22.46 | maquis | really? |
| 07:23.14 | maquis | i've only had a class in that building once, and i spent an hour trying to find it the first day |
| 07:23.31 | levi | There were maps by the door I entered that said where the F wing was, and it's pretty obvious how to get to the second floor. |
| 07:23.46 | maquis | some of the rooms are really hard to find |
| 07:24.00 | maquis | and someone said the basement's haunted |
| 07:24.05 | levi | I got there way early in case it was hard, but I just ended up waiting. |
| 07:24.36 | maquis | oh well... |
| 07:24.49 | maquis | i picked my laptop up from service instead... |
| 07:24.52 | levi | Anyway, afterward I got to hang out with Dr. Van Roy and the BYU professors that were there. Had lunch with them and talked about cool stuff. |
| 07:25.04 | maquis | fun |
| 07:25.11 | maquis | was dr morse there? |
| 07:25.54 | levi | Hmm. I'm not sure what Dr. Morse looks like, and the two male professors spent more time chatting with each other than anything else. |
| 07:26.03 | maquis | ah... |
| 07:26.50 | levi | Apparently Irene whassername's section of CS330 is using Dr. Van Roy's book instead of EoPL. |
| 07:26.56 | maquis | yes |
| 07:27.14 | maquis | the profs say that the class has a number of rough edges in it.... |
| 07:27.20 | levi | I like both of the books, for different reasons. |
| 07:27.35 | maquis | a nmber of the students have commented that they're going to give the class extremely low ratings |
| 07:28.03 | levi | Bah. |
| 07:28.09 | maquis | ?? |
| 07:28.22 | findlay | great iprovo is flaking out |
| 07:29.08 | levi | The class has a LOT of potential, and killing it because it's got a rough introduction would be very unfortunate. |
| 07:29.29 | levi | But I guess it's hard to expect students to look at it that way. |
| 07:29.51 | maquis | levi: if i was in the class, i certainly would have a hard time thinking of it that way |
| 07:29.56 | findlay | or it's OCT's new router |
| 07:29.56 | findlay | ~lart whatever it is |
| 07:30.32 | maquis | it's probably theoretically a good way of teaching the material, but if that doesn't translate into a successful experience for the students, then that causes some problems |
| 07:30.45 | findlay | ~lart whatever it is again |
| 07:30.53 | levi | That's not necessarily a fault of the material, though. |
| 07:31.05 | maquis | no... but it is something that needs to be thought about |
| 07:31.13 | levi | Dr Van Roy has had great success with it, at least. |
| 07:31.27 | maquis | honestly, i'm not certain that it's not just the teacher... |
| 07:31.34 | maquis | (that was double-negatives...) |
| 07:31.58 | maquis | i'm not certain that it is just the teacher... |
| 07:32.29 | levi | Did you mean 'perhaps it's just the teacher' |
| 07:32.36 | levi | ? |
| 07:33.15 | maquis | levi, yes |
| 07:33.51 | levi | Although, Dr. Van Roy did mention that he had greater success with it in 2nd year than 3rd, because 3rd year students tend to have closed their minds by that point. |
| 07:34.08 | maquis | i've heard some things floating around that lead me to believe that the teacher might have something to do with it, but i've never had dr geary, so i can't give too much thought to that |
| 07:34.41 | maquis | possibly.... |
| 07:34.51 | levi | If all you get is Java and its ilk for two years, and suddenly you get new paradigms to deal with, it's harder to accept them. |
| 07:35.13 | maquis | true... |
| 07:35.34 | levi | I think it's why Scheme is hard, too. |
| 07:35.45 | maquis | and you get comfortable working with C over other languages, and it's hard to do something radically different from it |
| 07:36.01 | levi | Exactly. |
| 07:36.32 | maquis | i know i've had some moments where i've stared at an assignment thinking "here's what i'd do in C... what advantage do i get from sitting here trying to smash a way through it in scheme" |
| 07:36.41 | levi | But I still maintain that C is a very poor tool for general-purpose software development. |
| 07:37.37 | maquis | it's not perfect, but neither is any other language |
| 07:38.00 | maquis | and it happens to have a smaller number of things to remember |
| 07:38.02 | maquis | which is nice |
| 07:38.41 | levi | Yes, but if you're going to turn out a bunch of programmers stuck on a language, it's a poor one to be stuck on. |
| 07:38.56 | maquis | what's a better one? java? c++? |
| 07:40.12 | maquis | certainly not vb... i dont think lisp/scheme would be ideal either, simply because there aren't as many jobs in those languages... |
| 07:40.28 | levi | Yes, they're both potentially better, but they've also got their downsides. After examining Ada over the weekend, I wish it had caught on better than it did. |
| 07:41.08 | maquis | levi: what language would you say is the "best" to choose if you're going to turn out a bunch of programmers stuck on one language? |
| 07:41.11 | levi | It has some complexities, but it looks like a much better software engineering tool than C, C++, or Java. |
| 07:41.37 | findlay | it's among the select languages gcc supports |
| 07:42.03 | maquis | findlay: there's a gcc front-end for the shakespeare programming language.... :) |
| 07:42.40 | levi | Well, of the languages in popular use now, right now I'd probably have a toss-up between C++ and Java, though it pains me to say it. |
| 07:42.58 | findlay | (: |
| 07:43.22 | maquis | levi: i'm curious why you would say c++ over c |
| 07:43.43 | maquis | on some level, i just don't understand what people prefer about c++... |
| 07:43.43 | levi | maquis: Because it's got far better support for good software engineering practices. |
| 07:43.43 | findlay | c++ is more fashionable |
| 07:43.50 | maquis | levi: in what way? |
| 07:43.53 | maquis | i'm really curious |
| 07:44.31 | findlay | maquis: almost everything you can do in C can be done in c++ |
| 07:44.38 | maquis | because i've found that recently, when i've had to use c++, i end up writing c++ that looks pretty much like straight c |
| 07:44.48 | levi | maquis: Mainly stronger typing and better facilities for abstraction. |
| 07:44.56 | maquis | mmk |
| 07:45.10 | levi | Also, exceptions. |
| 07:45.28 | levi | Good software design is all about abstractions. |
| 07:45.59 | levi | Well, Java's exceptions are really annoying. |
| 07:46.47 | levi | They don't /have/ to be annoying. They aren't in C++ or most other languages that support them. |
| 07:47.02 | maquis | mmk |
| 07:47.17 | maquis | i don't recall using c++ exceptions in cs240 |
| 07:48.16 | levi | The problem with /not/ having exceptions is that it requires a LOT more programming discipline to get proper error handling, and it means that return values from functions have to be overloaded to carry error values as well as real return values. |
| 07:48.27 | findlay | why do the freshmen downstairs insist on listening to their stupid drum beat and infinite cadence?!!!???!!@@@@!@!21 |
| 07:48.33 | findlay | ~lart them |
| 07:48.42 | levi | Which is messy on all sorts of levels, if you think about it. |
| 07:49.30 | levi | C makes it really easy to write broken programs that happen to work anyway, by lucky coincidence, in most cases. |
| 07:49.49 | levi | Which is a fundamentally unsound programming practice. |
| 07:50.32 | maquis | i'll admit to having written some bad code, but i find that i've learned a lot more about the importance of good programming practices from C than i did from c++ or java |
| 07:51.40 | levi | If you think so, you have a lot of good programming practice yet to learn! |
| 07:51.58 | maquis | ?? |
| 07:52.56 | levi | I suspect that you haven't had any classes that teach principles of program design, how to choose the right abstractions, etc. |
| 07:53.45 | maquis | cs240 is supposed to be a good class for program design |
| 07:54.24 | levi | I don't think it was, particularly, at least when I took it. It's perhaps an intro, but there's a /lot/ more to learn. |
| 07:58.38 | levi | A good course on software patterns would be a start. They're biased towards OOP, but the principles can be applied to other paradigms as well. |
| 08:20.53 | levi | Whoa, Joel Spolsky speaking at tonight's LispNYC meeting about 'next-generation language design and why Lisp is relevant' |
| 08:21.19 | levi | :boggles. |
| 08:24.03 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (n=Bob@c-67-186-215-81.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
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| 10:48.52 | *** mode/#utah [+o ChanServ] by irc.freenode.net |
| 14:16.10 | graphyx | Join your california based SONY rootkit class action lawsuit!! http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/ |
| 14:16.55 | graphyx | anyone got any digital camera review sites? |
| 14:24.09 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 14:56.58 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 15:02.19 | tensai | graphyx: dpreview.com |
| 15:04.15 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@204.14.21.69) |
| 15:05.54 | maquis | ~lart mornings |
| 15:19.53 | *** join/#utah osynic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 15:20.12 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 15:22.23 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 15:25.16 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 15:31.21 | *** join/#utah tensai (n=tensai@207.141.37.66) |
| 15:37.57 | tensai | hans: apparently I *am* doing content filtering on your mail |
| 15:38.50 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@68.26.149.73) |
| 15:40.32 | hans | real servers should go for the primary mx if it's available first, right? |
| 15:40.42 | tensai | in every case |
| 15:41.30 | hans | then I don't mind |
| 15:42.26 | tensai | I'm not seeing how to easily turn it off either, so that's good |
| 15:43.18 | hans | does it just discard the rejects or actually reject them/ |
| 15:43.19 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:44.07 | hans | ~lart sjansen |
| 15:44.31 | hans | ~seen lvei |
| 15:44.34 | ibot | i haven't seen 'lvei', hans |
| 15:44.36 | tensai | hans: rejects are done at either rcpt or data. nothing gets dropped into a blackhole. |
| 15:44.38 | hans | ~seen levi |
| 15:44.39 | ibot | levi <n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 7h 23m 20s ago, saying: ':boggles.'. |
| 15:44.56 | hans | :boggles. |
| 15:45.03 | hans | that's an odd thing to say |
| 15:45.19 | tensai | he was talking to maquis about c++ and java |
| 15:48.18 | tensai | I went from rejecting 5-10 messages a day to droppig 89 yesterday. 4 of those were your email that got content filtered. |
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| 15:48.59 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 15:50.02 | *** join/#utah rkm (n=richard@216.194.126.84) |
| 15:50.56 | hans | looks like in the past 24 hours, I've got 460 spams |
| 15:51.14 | hans | and not a single one made it past bogofilter |
| 15:51.47 | hans | no I take that back, there was one or two that made it into the unsure box |
| 15:51.56 | tensai | nice |
| 15:52.29 | hans | but I've been thinking of adding conservative content filtering for the sake of others on the domain |
| 15:52.50 | *** part/#utah graphyx (n=mike@67.50.46.118) |
| 15:52.53 | tensai | I sent 4 messages your way |
| 15:53.57 | tensai | I recommnd the spamhaus sbl+xbl. it'll cut down on 80% of your spam I bet. most of mine gets eliminated at that stage. |
| 15:54.17 | tensai | boy, who's stealing my ltters today? |
| 15:54.23 | hans | what does sbl+xbl mean? |
| 15:55.18 | tensai | they have two lists, the sbl and the xbl. then there's a third list that merges the two, called the sbl+xbl. |
| 15:56.26 | tensai | the sbl is a list of known bad guys. xbl is the exploits block list and has worms, viruses, etc. |
| 15:58.08 | hans | not a realtime black list then? |
| 16:03.20 | tensai | not sure what you mean. it's a dns blacklist that you query in realtime. |
| 16:03.57 | tensai | ~nslookup 221.77.79.218.sbl-xbl.spamhaus.org |
| 16:04.00 | hans | right, but it's not one of these automatic we got a spam from this IP so we're adding it to the blacklist, or we have a whim to add this IP things |
| 16:04.26 | hans | iow there's some level of quality control and responsibility? |
| 16:04.51 | hans | i'm much more concerned about false positives than blocking spam |
| 16:06.36 | tensai | the sbl is certainly that way. the xbl has some automaticness to it. |
| 16:07.12 | tensai | I am too. I watch very closely everything that gets rejected and in more than a year I have not seen a false positive due to spamhaus |
| 16:08.21 | hans | i won't be watching closely |
| 16:08.46 | hans | their faq says it bounces like it should so that's good |
| 16:09.22 | tensai | that's all dependent on your mta, of course. generally the reaction is to bounce. |
| 16:09.37 | tensai | and certainly should be |
| 16:22.11 | Bradipo | hans: You clearly aren't getting enough spam. :-) |
| 16:22.40 | Bradipo | Without spamhaus and sorbs, the SNR would clearly be in favor of the spammers. |
| 16:23.21 | Bradipo | The biggest pain I deal with are mail servers that don't properly deliver bounces to their users, so they don't know why the email never arrived. |
| 16:24.12 | Bradipo | tensai: I have seen a few false positives, mostly from servers running outside the US. |
| 16:26.01 | hans | Bradipo: my domain is small, but a couple of us (jacob and I, at least) attract a good deal of spam |
| 16:26.24 | hans | the 500 or so in the last 24 hours is a small number, and that's just my account (with tensai's filtering too) |
| 16:26.51 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wade@207.135.130.2) |
| 16:26.59 | hans | so yeah, my server/bandwidth has no problem with the spam |
| 16:27.16 | hans | and bogofilter |
| 16:28.31 | tensai | but why spend the bandwidth when you don't need to |
| 16:28.42 | tensai | ~spell unnecessarily |
| 16:28.56 | tensai | ibot: but it looks funny. are you sure? |
| 16:28.59 | ibot | tensai: I think you lost me on that one |
| 16:29.20 | hans | spend bandwidth? the spammers still connect to me either way |
| 16:29.24 | tensai | ibot: stupid bot |
| 16:29.26 | ibot | no, stupid tensai |
| 16:30.01 | tensai | if you drop them because of an rbl they won't have sent you any data. |
| 16:30.10 | tensai | well, not much anyway |
| 16:31.08 | Bradipo | hans: They still connect, but the amount required for HELO, QUIT is much less than HELO, MAIL FROM, RCPT TO, DATA <big body of spam> QUIT |
| 16:31.20 | hans | big is relative |
| 16:31.22 | tensai | and you don't have to fork a bogofilter process to scan the content |
| 16:31.28 | hans | viruses are big, yes. |
| 16:31.28 | Bradipo | Not really. |
| 16:31.40 | *** join/#utah mrpull- (n=mrpull|@205.158.184.112) |
| 16:31.49 | hans | yes really. big compared to the headers yes |
| 16:32.10 | hans | but not compared to what my bandwidth is really spent on |
| 16:32.15 | Bradipo | Oh. |
| 16:32.20 | hans | downloading things, web requests, etc. |
| 16:32.22 | tensai | Bradipo: in my setup it's HELO, MAIL FROM, RCPT TO, QUIT |
| 16:32.31 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 16:32.41 | Bradipo | tensai: Still significant savings. |
| 16:32.48 | hans | levi: how'd you like it? |
| 16:33.24 | levi | hans: Excellent. |
| 16:33.24 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@166.70.183.108) |
| 16:33.37 | hans | which talk did he give? |
| 16:33.39 | tensai | Bradipo: indeed. cpu and ram are most precious in my setup. bandwidth is far down the list. |
| 16:33.55 | levi | hans: I went to lunch with him, Dr. Geary, and a couple other professor types afterward. He talked about his appraoch to CS education. |
| 16:34.16 | hans | neat |
| 16:34.33 | hans | tensai: which is precisely why i hate spamassassin |
| 16:34.50 | hans | it spends far too much cpu and ram |
| 16:35.05 | hans | much more than letting it get delivered and bogofiltered |
| 16:35.07 | Bradipo | I don't much like spamassassin either. |
| 16:35.09 | levi | hans: Yeah, it was really cool. So, he's already been to your school, right? |
| 16:35.15 | hans | yeah |
| 16:35.28 | levi | Which did he speak about there? |
| 16:35.35 | hans | teaching |
| 16:36.11 | levi | How'd you like it? |
| 16:36.42 | hans | it was good. the declarative concurrency stuff piqued my interest a bit |
| 16:36.51 | hans | his 'no race conditions' claim |
| 16:36.59 | levi | Yup. Interesting stuff. |
| 16:37.51 | levi | Did he have time to cover the stuff on semantics with you guys? |
| 16:38.01 | hans | briefly |
| 16:38.04 | levi | He just barely skimmed through them for us, because he ran out of time. |
| 16:38.33 | hans | basically, it's a simple language that is easy for the programmer to understand and sufficiently easy to reason with |
| 16:38.53 | hans | not pure-theoretical turing-machine-like |
| 16:39.28 | tensai | hans: if you really want to stop spam you should use Spamcop. they're the best, and the false positive rate is a lot 28%! |
| 16:39.32 | tensai | s/lot/low/ |
| 16:39.35 | levi | I read some of the relevant stuff in the textbook. |
| 16:39.43 | levi | The core language idea is pretty cool. |
| 16:39.56 | hans | lol, a low 28% huh? |
| 16:40.03 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 16:40.09 | hans | i'd just love to lose 28% of my legitimate email |
| 16:40.34 | tensai | hans: I just made that up of course, but anybody who uses spamcop is guaranteed to lose legitimate mail. |
| 16:40.51 | tensai | especially considering the spamcop makes it so #)&$@) hard to get delisted |
| 16:40.57 | tensai | s/the/that/ |
| 16:41.10 | tensai | seriously, what's wrong with my fingers today? did somebody break my keyboard? |
| 16:42.12 | Bradipo | tensai: I stopped using spamcop a while ago. |
| 16:42.34 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@c-67-169-244-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:42.36 | Bradipo | They started listing servers that send bounce messages and that was the straw that broke my back... |
| 16:42.51 | tensai | Bradipo: we don't use them either, but people our customers email use them and thus I have to deal with their crap |
| 16:43.08 | Bradipo | Spamcop used to be good. |
| 16:43.16 | Bradipo | I used them successfully for about 2 years. |
| 16:43.35 | levi | hans: They videotaped the presentation at BYU and copied his slides, so hopefully both will be available soon. |
| 16:44.29 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@64.0.193.132) |
| 16:45.19 | levi | hans: The lecture at UVSC was actually fairly interesting, too. |
| 16:46.12 | levi | hans: It was about how these guys at a Lucent spinoff refactored a VOIP endpoint registration protocol. |
| 16:48.13 | *** join/#utah Goshun (n=Goshen@c-67-172-238-57.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:49.38 | levi | hans: They did some fairly cool stuff. The legacy code was tightly coupled, separate concerns were mixed together in the code, and it was very hard to maintain. So they separated the protocol conceptually into modules, which were automata that they could compose together. The automata communicated via micro-messages. They then defined a way to multiplex the micro-messages programmatically back into the original protocol messages, and demux them at |
| 16:52.47 | levi | hans: They also developed some cool little programs that acted as the agents in the protocol and let you explore the protocol operation via guis. |
| 16:53.20 | hans | interesting |
| 16:55.03 | jsmith | That does sound interesting. |
| 16:57.32 | hans | levi, I'm spiralling out of control with emacs. (snd as a subjob). I'm tempted to just write a readline wrapper for snd which takes input on stdin |
| 16:57.46 | levi | hans: How are you spiralling out of control? |
| 16:58.45 | hans | I did get it to run (fonts issues) and went through the tutorial, but I'm just as lost as ever as to how to run inf-snd.el |
| 16:59.36 | levi | Generally you load it in your .emacs with (load <filename>) and then do M-x <whatever> to start it, where <whatever> will be defined in inf-snd.el |
| 16:59.58 | harleypig | ARGHH! Anyone know enough about jabber to help with something? |
| 17:00.27 | levi | You can also, to test it out, type (load <filename>) in *scratch* and then C-x C-e to eval the expression. |
| 17:00.44 | tensai | harleypig: jabber the client, jabber the server, or jabber the protocol? |
| 17:01.23 | harleypig | tensai: Probably the client. Mainly I need to know how to run administrative tasks from my client for my account. |
| 17:01.32 | harleypig | specifically, on jabber.plug.org |
| 17:02.12 | harleypig | At one point I setup aim on my jabber account. But now that I have bitlbee I don't want my jabber account to login to my aim setup, but I can't find any docs on how to do that. |
| 17:02.39 | tensai | you have to unregister with the aim whatchamacallit |
| 17:03.05 | hans | levi inf-snd.el doesn't say where to install it, and I don't know already |
| 17:03.15 | hans | where do I put stuff that I reference in .emacs? |
| 17:03.23 | tensai | harleypig: what client are you using? |
| 17:03.24 | harleypig | tensai: Yeah, but I don't remember the commands and I can't find a reference anywhere. |
| 17:03.28 | harleypig | tensai: irssi |
| 17:03.37 | tensai | for jabber? |
| 17:04.17 | levi | hans: You can (add-to-list 'load-path "<path to where you put .el files>") |
| 17:04.34 | hans | um, ok, but where is the conventional place for these? |
| 17:04.48 | hans | or is there no convention? |
| 17:04.54 | harleypig | tensai: Yeah. |
| 17:05.13 | harleypig | tensai: well, I'm connected to the jabber server via bitlbee through irssi |
| 17:05.36 | levi | hans: Most of mine are in their own directories with other project-related files. |
| 17:06.33 | levi | hans: So, I've got (add-to-list 'load-path "/user/local/oz/share/elisp") followed by (require 'oz) to get the Mozart support stuff in there. |
| 17:07.01 | hans | just as soon put the whole path in load |
| 17:07.08 | hans | i assume require just won't reload? |
| 17:08.23 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 17:08.23 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:08.50 | levi | inf-snd.el has sample .emacs stuff to get it working correctly. |
| 17:09.44 | hans | yes, I put it in .emacs |
| 17:09.50 | hans | but how to I _do_ it? |
| 17:10.46 | tensai | harleypig: sounds like a bitlbee issue then. you may have to bug a jabber.plug.org admin to remove your config and restart the jabber server. |
| 17:11.27 | hans | tensai: i don't think so. I think you just have to cancel notification or some other jabberish thing |
| 17:11.47 | tensai | hans: well, yes. but he doesn't know how to unregister from bitlbee |
| 17:12.08 | hans | levi: can I specify a full path in that autoload line? |
| 17:12.19 | hans | (autoload 'run-snd-ruby "inf-snd" "Start inferior Snd-Ruby process" t) |
| 17:12.23 | tensai | harleypig: or bring up a jabber-only client and use that just to unregister. I've found that most multiprotocol clients don't handle all the jabber fancy features very well. |
| 17:13.26 | levi | hans: Just put the path in your load-path |
| 17:14.13 | harleypig | tensai: Hmmm ... hadn't even thought of that. Thanks. I'll give that a try. |
| 17:14.20 | sjansen | levi: wow, sounds like an amazing couple of presentations |
| 17:14.33 | levi | sjansen: Yeah, it was a good day. :) |
| 17:14.34 | tensai | harleypig: I like exodus and psi |
| 17:14.56 | sjansen | so what is this language with out race conditions you speak of? |
| 17:15.24 | hans | so there really is not a default load path? isn't that a bit insane? |
| 17:15.32 | harleypig | tensai: Thanks. |
| 17:17.08 | hans | levi: I'm getting cannot open load file "inf-ruby" |
| 17:18.03 | levi | You probably need inf-ruby.el |
| 17:18.07 | hans | which is apparently sourced by inf-snd. guess I probably just need to find it on the web? |
| 17:18.48 | levi | http://www.jjj.de/emacs/files/other/inf-ruby.el |
| 17:19.17 | *** join/#utah jlp_work (n=jlp@67.106.37.5) |
| 17:19.45 | hans | ok, it says t now. which I assume means it loaded inf-snd just fine |
| 17:19.47 | hans | now what? |
| 17:20.14 | jlp_work | does anyone have an old CGA monitor lying around that still works? |
| 17:21.20 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 17:22.23 | hans | there we are. ok, so now I have snd as a subjob yay |
| 17:22.37 | *** join/#utah dennis12 (n=dennis@computer10.qsicorp.com) |
| 17:22.57 | levi | hans: Now M-x run-snd-ruby |
| 17:23.48 | hans | play |
| 17:23.49 | hans | # undefined method `run_emacs_eval_hook' for main:Object |
| 17:24.16 | levi | Sounds like you perhaps need some Ruby support file for this. |
| 17:24.29 | hans | inf-ruby, right? |
| 17:24.40 | levi | Something actually written in Ruby. |
| 17:24.47 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:24.53 | hans | snd takes care of the ruby |
| 17:25.00 | hans | it takes input on stdin and outputs on stdout |
| 17:25.06 | levi | Hmm. I don't know, then. |
| 17:25.27 | hans | ok, well it was a fun foray |
| 17:26.14 | *** join/#utah suspence (n=spencer@c-24-10-167-25.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:26.26 | levi | hans: You might try looking in inf-snd.el to see where the error message comes from. |
| 17:26.59 | hans | i have a hard enough time trying to use emacs, let alone trying to debug it. it'll be easier to just write a simple readline wrapper |
| 17:26.59 | harleypig | tensai: Thanks. That was too obvious a solution. :/ |
| 17:27.09 | findlay | does anybody know what this message means: |
| 17:27.11 | findlay | PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 12): 550 Requested action not taken: mailbox unavailable |
| 17:27.28 | levi | hans: There's a nice little text description in a comment describing what it's trying to do. |
| 17:28.12 | levi | The fault here lies not with emacs, but with whoever put together this whole snd/ruby/emacs interface. |
| 17:28.43 | harleypig | findlay: That means either the mailbox doesn't exist on the server or it's not going to admit it. Either way, it's not accepting your attempted spam^Wemail. :> |
| 17:28.51 | hans | ok, that comment makes sense. one more try |
| 17:28.57 | tensai | findlay: from the rfc: "mailbox not found, no access, or command rejected for policy reasons" |
| 17:30.05 | findlay | good of them to post their email addresses publicly if they are going to block incoming mail then |
| 17:30.32 | harleypig | findlay: Could be inter-dept miscommunication |
| 17:32.00 | findlay | or total internet ineptitude at the institution whose page it is |
| 17:33.39 | harleypig | findlay: hehe |
| 17:35.47 | findlay | at least I am strongly tempted to believe that for an elememtary school |
| 17:41.13 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 17:43.30 | sjansen | levi: the fault always lies with emacs |
| 17:43.51 | levi | sjansen: All generalizations are false. |
| 17:44.45 | sjansen | The exception that makes your generalization true is that all deragatory generalizations of emacs are true. |
| 17:45.22 | levi | All sjansens are liars. |
| 17:45.41 | emcnabb | I agree with that |
| 17:46.54 | tensai | wasn't Scooter Jansen just indicted? |
| 17:54.15 | findlay | all sjansens have lyres |
| 18:09.08 | *** join/#utah SpecialZ (n=chatzill@128.187.133.58) |
| 18:12.54 | sjansen | http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~kirkenda/joy84.html |
| 18:13.16 | sjansen | If the creator of vi doesn't believe in it, what am I to believe? |
| 18:14.35 | maquis | ~lart SpecialZ |
| 18:14.43 | sjansen | REVIEW: Real programmers use cat as their editor. |
| 18:14.43 | sjansen | JOY: That's right! There you go! It is too much trouble to say ed, because cat's smaller and only needs two pages of memory[.] |
| 18:18.12 | SpecialZ | ~lart maquis |
| 18:21.05 | wps | to add a file to an existing tar archive… |
| 18:21.16 | wps | does the file your adding have to be in it's own tar archive? |
| 18:24.45 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:27.34 | drfindley | wow |
| 18:27.53 | *** part/#utah drfindley (n=drfindle@c-67-161-219-247.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:28.15 | findlay | sjansen: maybe he just had an overdose of buzzword hype before the interview. It was 1984 after all. |
| 18:29.50 | findlay | ~lart [SpecialZ|maquis] whichever the wave equation collapses to |
| 18:30.10 | maquis | ~llart findlay |
| 18:30.16 | findlay | no ibot you were supposed to select a single state |
| 18:30.46 | maquis | bah |
| 18:30.52 | maquis | ~lart findlay |
| 18:33.38 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@dhcp35.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 18:33.39 | mheath | Hey, I was just going to say ...... |
| 18:33.52 | mheath | I'm going to be getting my wisdom teeth out in a few hours |
| 18:34.01 | mheath | and I'll likely be using the computer under the influence of lortab |
| 18:34.03 | levi | sjansen: I doubt many of the people who wrote software in the 70s continued to use it until today. They probably expect things to get /better/ instead of remaining the same. :) |
| 18:34.16 | mheath | If I get out of control, feel free to temp ban me |
| 18:34.29 | mheath | I don't know how lortab will effect my behavior =\ |
| 18:35.55 | levi | Heh. |
| 18:36.17 | levi | It's a painkiller, not LSD. |
| 18:36.54 | mheath | levi: It's also an opiate |
| 18:37.06 | levi | I'm aware of that. |
| 18:37.15 | mheath | I realize it won't mess with me that much, but it can mess with my thought and reasoning a bit. |
| 18:45.07 | *** join/#utah stuporgule (n=mrm72@monsters.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:50.32 | findlay | levi: yes, that's why windows is far better than a UNIX environment. After all, the windows command line is little more than just a token feature. (-: |
| 18:51.03 | findlay | insn't emacs an operating system? |
| 18:51.44 | tensai | findlay: it left the realm of operating system a while ago |
| 18:51.45 | levi | findlay: I'm not saying things /did/ get better, just that computer scientists working on the cool stuff of the 70s would have reasonably expected things to get better. |
| 18:52.28 | findlay | levi: a much more well defined argument |
| 18:56.09 | sjansen | Memory paging over sattelite connection was an interesting idea. |
| 18:56.54 | findlay | not as interesting as memory paging with carrier pigeons |
| 19:00.28 | maquis | mheath: i wrote an oratory for speech and debate the day i got my wisdom teeth out... |
| 19:00.32 | maquis | my coach wasn't very impressed |
| 19:00.56 | mheath | you know.... |
| 19:01.16 | findlay | titled "the wisdom of oration" |
| 19:01.16 | mheath | Terraforming mars seems like a real possibility |
| 19:01.37 | mheath | The idea is, you release certain greenhouse gases on mars |
| 19:01.43 | mheath | Which will slightly raise the termperature |
| 19:01.53 | mheath | Melting of the polar icecaps will create CO2 |
| 19:01.54 | findlay | except that the gravity is too little to hold all but a tenuous atmosphere |
| 19:02.51 | mheath | findlay: The idea is a viable ecosystem that supports human colonization, not a perfect ecosystem and perfect atmosphere. |
| 19:04.09 | findlay | as long as you're OK with an atmosphere that leaks, if you want a breatheable one |
| 19:08.14 | findlay | lortab is LSB? |
| 19:08.39 | mrpull- | Linux Standards Base? |
| 19:10.18 | *** join/#utah drewbono (n=andrew@c-24-2-95-76.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:10.43 | findlay | ibot: lortab is not LSB |
| 19:10.44 | ibot | findlay: okay |
| 19:10.51 | mheath | findlay: Mars gravity is .38 of Earth's. It seems like it'd be able to sustain an atmosphere similar to ours |
| 19:10.58 | mheath | If you were to introduce additional gases |
| 19:12.18 | mheath | findlay: This article I'm reading quotes a Dr. Christopher McKay, who says that, after the introduced the greenhouse gasses and melted the northern ice-cap, you'd end up with an atmospheric pressure close to upper-himalayan level. |
| 19:13.48 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@128.187.243.131) |
| 19:13.55 | findlay | but is it going to stay or be blown away by solar wind or any other wind of doctrine? |
| 19:25.26 | tensai | mheath: haven't you ever seen Total Recall? |
| 19:55.13 | mheath | tensai: Nope |
| 19:56.14 | tensai | mheath: the plot is that aliens left a whole bunch of water ice under the surface. they thaw it and create a beautiful planet. |
| 20:00.43 | levi | Crap, my old server computer was apparently killed in the last power outage. |
| 20:00.55 | levi | I think the power supply gave up the ghost. |
| 20:02.54 | RyanE | levi: at least it's an easily replaceable and fairly inexpensive part. |
| 20:03.00 | levi | Yeah. |
| 20:03.15 | RyanE | for a while, I had a spare power supply hanging around the house 'just in case'. |
| 20:03.43 | levi | The whole computer needs to be replaced, though. It's slow enough that while my Lisp blog server runs fine, Drupal runs too slowly. |
| 20:03.54 | levi | And the hard drives make ominous clicking noises. |
| 20:04.02 | RyanE | mmmm. not good. |
| 20:04.37 | RyanE | I've been wanting to do an upgrade on a machine or two as well, but our car requires some $$$ repairs to pass inspection / emissions, and for some reason, that takes priority. :) |
| 20:05.23 | levi | Yeah, my Miata has expired registration and needs new tires before it'll pass inspection. The Solara is due for registration renewal this month, but I need to get some tools to swap an O2 sensor. |
| 20:05.46 | RyanE | all 3 of our cars come up for renewal in Nov / Dec. Kind of a bummer. |
| 20:05.47 | levi | Just a slotted socket and maybe a breaker bar. |
| 20:06.10 | levi | But it's more expensive to renew than the Miata. |
| 20:06.16 | RyanE | fortunately, only one of them has 'issues' right now. |
| 20:06.27 | RyanE | tensai: what's your mode of transport? |
| 20:06.46 | tensai | RyanE: car, but I drive in Idaho so there's no inspection or emissions |
| 20:06.47 | levi | The Miata has issues, but they're more annoying than anything else. |
| 20:07.01 | tensai | next spring I plan to start biking, though |
| 20:07.13 | levi | Well, if I drove the Miata much longer, I would wear entirely through the rear tires. |
| 20:07.17 | RyanE | probably good that the repairs happen in this case anyway. I've got a head gasket leaking a bit of oil into the #1 cylinder. |
| 20:07.21 | levi | It needs an alignment badly. |
| 20:07.52 | RyanE | tensai: I've known people who registered their car with friends / relatives in Idaho for that reason. |
| 20:08.29 | tensai | it's also a lot cheaper. my 2 year registration was $60 |
| 20:08.29 | tensai | and that was with the fancy trout plates |
| 20:08.29 | RyanE | Oooh! Trout! |
| 20:08.41 | tensai | cutthroat even |
| 20:09.06 | levi | My goal is to wait to fix the major annoyances in the Miata until I get a house with a garage and some decent tools. |
| 20:09.20 | RyanE | I want the 'I don't care about any special interests' plates. Not Ski Utah, not Arches, not BYU. I want the old-school Utah B&W plates, with the little beehive in the middle. |
| 20:09.54 | findlay | levi: as far as socket sets go, watch the sears advertisements, they usually have some good sales on some pretty sweet tools |
| 20:10.19 | levi | findlay: I've already got a socket set, I just need a large slotted socket that'll fit the O2 sensor. |
| 20:10.20 | findlay | or you can scrounge together something from harbor freight |
| 20:10.23 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 20:10.38 | RyanE | levi: have you checked to see if AutoZone loans that tool? |
| 20:10.46 | RyanE | I know that for pullers of all types they loan them for free. |
| 20:10.56 | levi | RyanE: No, but I'd like to have it for myself anyway. |
| 20:11.06 | findlay | levi: my oxygen sensor was so available I could take it off with a monkey wrench (: |
| 20:11.18 | RyanE | findlay: or your teeth. :) |
| 20:11.36 | levi | findlay: My O2 sensor is pretty available, but I couldn't get a good enough grip on it or enough torque to get it off. |
| 20:11.53 | levi | findlay: At least the O2 sensor that I need to get at. There are apparently several. |
| 20:11.58 | findlay | levi: galvanized pipe (: |
| 20:12.34 | findlay | \tau = r x F, gives you a bigger r |
| 20:14.37 | levi | Indeed, but that doesn't get me any better grip on the sensor. |
| 20:15.26 | findlay | levi: true |
| 20:15.59 | tensai | levi: super glue |
| 20:16.29 | findlay | i heard super glue doesn't work very good for software |
| 20:17.35 | maquis | http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/11/sony-you-dont-reeeeaaaally-want-to_09.html |
| 20:21.36 | tensai | maquis: hey, that's what happened to me. I hope they enjoyed whatever they collected from my Crossover registry. |
| 20:21.54 | maquis | :) |
| 20:22.01 | maquis | tensai: did you ever get it off? |
| 20:22.29 | maquis | tensai: you might watch out... they might say that listening to the cd on Crossover Office is against the EULA and sue you for it |
| 20:22.33 | findlay | why hasn't sony released a version of their rootkit for my OS? I demand that they port it |
| 20:23.06 | tensai | maquis: it was never there in the first place. I haven't bought a cd in a long time. and I'm sure not going to buy any from sony any time soon. |
| 20:23.16 | maquis | yeah |
| 20:23.39 | maquis | yeah... i wouldn't mind taking one of these cds off the hands of someone who bought it, though |
| 20:24.08 | maquis | i might even be willing to stick winXP back on my old box to play with it... |
| 20:24.21 | maquis | hmmm |
| 20:25.02 | maquis | it says that the software phones home whenever you play the music... does it prevent you from playing if you're not connected to a network? or does it juts hold onto the info? |
| 20:25.27 | maquis | and if a company has an EULA that doesn't disclose important facts about the cd, does the EULA still have any force? |
| 20:27.51 | findlay | I like to Just Say No(TM) |
| 20:28.03 | findlay | and not worry about windows anymore |
| 20:28.15 | findlay | ibot: DRM is Just Say No(TM) |
| 20:28.16 | ibot | ...but drm is already something else... |
| 20:28.16 | maquis | but it's interesting |
| 20:28.23 | findlay | ibot: DRM is also Just Say No(TM) |
| 20:28.24 | ibot | findlay: okay |
| 20:28.29 | findlay | ~DRM |
| 20:28.30 | ibot | from memory, drm is a cool new video card feature in the 2.4 kernel -- http://precisioninsight.com/dr/drm.html or the Direct Rendering Module, or called Direct Rendering Manager. "an acronym for "Digital Rights Management" ", or http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/drm.asp ... the best big black-caca from the ass of gates Just Say No(TM) |
| 20:28.43 | bonez39 | any of you familiar with dsl modem made by "Broadxent"? |
| 20:29.14 | bonez39 | I am looking into a company called ACN Inc.... they offer dsl and their h/w of choice is a Broadxent modem.... |
| 20:32.23 | lars-ut | bonez39 is an mlm - they're probably just using Qwest copper. |
| 20:32.29 | lars-ut | like everybody else |
| 20:32.42 | lars-ut | rather ACN is an mlm |
| 20:33.28 | tensai | lars-ut: not everybody uses qwest copper. and even of those that do, not all of them use qwest's dslam. |
| 20:33.44 | lars-ut | really? |
| 20:33.44 | tensai | for the majority you're right, though |
| 20:34.22 | tensai | lars-ut: yes, really. my company offers dsl that runs on our own dslams. |
| 20:34.31 | lars-ut | what company? |
| 20:34.35 | tensai | wyoming.com |
| 20:34.43 | tensai | not available in utah :( |
| 20:35.11 | tensai | and when I say that not all use qwest copper, that's because there are still quite a few independent telcos who have their own lines. |
| 20:35.11 | bonez39 | lars-ut, yes, please..I am not an mlm...unless that means, mormon/linux/monger.....;) |
| 20:36.16 | bonez39 | I have a friend who has an office at 9100 s and 1300 west.... He swears he can't get DSL....for less than 300 per month....due to the exclusive contract the builder/developer has for the teleco service in his complex......is there any way around this? |
| 20:36.41 | tensai | bonez39: looks like they're using standard g.lite or g.dmt. should work with just about any dsl modem out there. |
| 20:36.49 | bonez39 | tensai, at some point the ILEC's have to tie in somewhere to Qwest's copper, though, right? or Qwest's fibre? |
| 20:37.36 | bonez39 | tensai, well, I have a cisco 678 which I love..I know how to program it....and torque the ports and such.....but ACN is telling me I have to use THEIR modem.....a broadxent |
| 20:37.57 | lars-ut | ibot: tensile strength of tensai? |
| 20:38.00 | tensai | bonez39: only if they want to terminate calls to qwest phones. they peer with them using a protocol suite called ss7. |
| 20:38.13 | findlay | tensai: have their own lines to where? |
| 20:38.33 | tensai | findlay: to their own customers. not all phone lines are owned by qwest. |
| 20:38.54 | findlay | to the customers yes, but where do they plug in the back end? |
| 20:40.17 | tensai | to their phone switches |
| 20:41.25 | tensai | want to start your own telco? http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Lucent-5ESS-switch_W0QQitemZ5820311082QQcategoryZ71525QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
| 20:41.46 | tensai | at $199,199 it's a steal |
| 20:43.07 | *** join/#utah suspence (n=spencer@c-24-10-167-25.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:44.16 | tensai | bonez39: it's my best guess that a cisco 678 will work, but I can't guarantee that |
| 20:44.53 | lars-ut | ~tensile strength of tensai |
| 20:44.54 | ibot | well, tensile strength of tensai is 63000 MPa, equivalent to carbon nanotubes |
| 20:45.24 | jsmith | ~tensile strength of lars-ut |
| 20:45.35 | maquis | ????? |
| 20:45.56 | lars-ut | ibot doesn't work well with numbers that large |
| 20:46.36 | mheath | I wish I was going to an oral surgeon |
| 20:46.59 | maquis | mheath: what makes it more worrisome going to a dentist than to an oral surgeon? |
| 20:47.03 | lars-ut | ibot: tensile strength of lars-ut |
| 20:47.05 | ibot | somebody said tensile strength of lars-ut was 3620 MPa, equivalent to Kevlar |
| 20:47.14 | jsmith | mheath: Just hope you have a better experience than I did... |
| 20:47.21 | maquis | mheath: are they going to put you under? |
| 20:47.30 | *** join/#utah bzob_l (n=bzob_l@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 20:47.40 | mheath | maquis: No. Thats the reason I wish I was going to an oral surgeon |
| 20:47.47 | jsmith | mheath: Ouch. |
| 20:48.19 | maquis | mheath: i'm sure it'll be fine... |
| 20:48.33 | mheath | Oral surgeons put you under, Dentists don't (they're not trained or certified in anesthetic stuff that puts you all the way out) |
| 20:48.55 | mrpull- | mheath: daaang. oral surgeon is the only way to go. |
| 20:49.08 | maquis | mheath: but you won't be able to feel anything during it, right? |
| 20:49.17 | levi | Heh. |
| 20:49.19 | jsmith | mheath: Even with an oral surgeon, wisdom teeth can be a nightmare |
| 20:49.27 | mheath | mrpull-: My dad said he didn't think our insurance would cover an oral surgeon =\ |
| 20:49.45 | mheath | maquis: Supposedly |
| 20:50.07 | levi | My wisdom teeth (both of them) were removed fairly easily and I didn't even need to take the heavy painkillers I was given. |
| 20:50.07 | mheath | If he injects the novicane properly...and puts enough in.......and puts it in exactly the right spot |
| 20:50.10 | maquis | mine wasn't that bad... it bled for a while and i was pretty puffed up, but i only took 1 dose of vicodin afterwards... |
| 20:50.17 | maquis | levi: top or bottom? |
| 20:50.18 | tensai | I had them put me under. I went camping the next day. |
| 20:50.20 | maquis | bottom are the worst |
| 20:50.24 | levi | maquis: One of each. |
| 20:50.45 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 20:50.46 | levi | maquis: I only have two wisdom teeth. |
| 20:50.49 | mrpull- | my poor sister in law participated in a study to get hers out for free |
| 20:50.51 | levi | s/have/had |
| 20:50.52 | lars-ut | only one here |
| 20:50.57 | maquis | didn't take most of the drugs they gave me... |
| 20:51.01 | mrpull- | she was in the control group and didn't get the deadening |
| 20:51.08 | mrpull- | she was fouled up for days |
| 20:51.16 | maquis | mrpull-: ouch!!!!!!!! |
| 20:51.33 | mrpull- | i went to a surgeon in orem. i was out raising hell with my friends that evening. |
| 20:51.46 | maquis | mheath: you'll have a better experience than mrpull-'s sister at least |
| 20:51.47 | jsmith | My friend and I got them out the same day -- he was eating pizza that night, and I couldn't eat pizza for almost two weeks |
| 20:52.45 | mrpull- | mheath: get some mints or breath strips or something |
| 20:52.53 | tensai | maquis: so do I. they ache every now and then |
| 20:52.56 | mrpull- | you'll have the worst breath in your entire life :) |
| 20:53.11 | mrpull- | you wont be kissing anyone for a few days for sure |
| 20:53.13 | mheath | I don't trust this dentist =\ |
| 20:53.19 | mheath | He's an old family friend, though |
| 20:53.37 | mheath | My mom and his wife used to be good friends |
| 20:53.45 | mheath | me and his daughter had playdates together when we were little, etc |
| 20:54.04 | maquis | mheath: hmmm... |
| 20:54.06 | mheath | He never did that great of a job when he injected me with novicane in the past |
| 20:54.20 | maquis | mheath: good luck? |
| 20:54.23 | mheath | I've felt some pain (granted, not much) when he's been filling cavities before |
| 20:55.44 | mheath | =\ |
| 20:56.04 | mrpull- | :-X |
| 20:56.19 | tensai | mrpull-: you'll have to open wider than that |
| 20:56.31 | tensai | :-[ ] |
| 20:58.37 | mheath | Fake opium =\ |
| 20:59.38 | maquis | mheath: vicodin |
| 21:00.12 | mheath | maquis: what about it? :D |
| 21:06.29 | maquis | mheath: it's good stuff :) |
| 21:06.39 | maquis | (at least i recall it that way...) |
| 21:06.46 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:06.46 | maquis | See: http://us.mcafee.com/virusInfo/default.asp?id=description&virus_k=136855 |
| 21:07.11 | maquis | There have been reports of system crashes possibly resulting from uninstalling XCP (http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/11/sonys-rootkit-first-4-internet.html ). System crashes may also occur during repair using McAfee products due to issues in the First4Internet code itself." |
| 21:10.04 | maquis | does anybody know anyone with one of these cds? |
| 21:17.53 | *** join/#utah suspence_ (n=spencer@c-24-10-167-25.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:27.00 | *** part/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
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| 21:59.37 | bonez39 | damn.... I need to dumb efaxplus..and go with what? hylafax? |
| 22:01.49 | bonez39 | does hylafax have a room on IRC? |
| 22:03.18 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:07.59 | lars-ut | bonez39 - I just joined an empty #hylafax |
| 22:08.24 | lars-ut | perhaps it was created when I joined it |
| 22:08.40 | tensai | lars-ut: that's the normal behavior |
| 22:09.03 | lars-ut | :( |
| 22:09.13 | lars-ut | too bad I would have liked that channel |
| 22:12.20 | *** join/#utah flyboy^ (n=flyboy@ded1005.west-datacenter.net) |
| 22:13.03 | bonez39 | lars-ut, well, I think there should be such a channel... |
| 22:14.27 | *** join/#utah TheDiff|1etached (n=TheDiff@68.126.29.77) |
| 22:14.42 | Bradipo | bonez39: Then start it up. |
| 22:14.53 | Bradipo | Hang out in there until other people start showing up. |
| 22:16.45 | *** join/#utah hans (i=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 22:16.52 | hans | ~lart vontrapp |
| 22:19.20 | emcnabb | ~lart hans |
| 22:20.56 | *** join/#utah TheDiff|2etached (n=TheDiff@68.126.29.77) |
| 22:22.49 | ScytheBlade1 | Has anyone ever setup SSH connection sharing before? I'm having a little trouble with it |
| 22:23.01 | ScytheBlade1 | better question: anyone even heard of it? |
| 22:23.20 | hans | connection sharing? |
| 22:23.30 | jsmith | Connection sharing? |
| 22:23.41 | ScytheBlade1 | It saves a socket locally |
| 22:23.48 | ScytheBlade1 | Uses that to connect to the host subsequent times |
| 22:23.49 | ScytheBlade1 | sec, linking |
| 22:24.19 | ScytheBlade1 | http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/SSH%20connection%20caching http://www.littleredbat.net/mk/blog/story/29/ |
| 22:24.45 | ScytheBlade1 | s/sharing/multiplexing/ |
| 22:24.51 | ScytheBlade1 | It's used interchangably |
| 22:27.06 | Bradipo | ScytheBlade1: Never heard of it. |
| 22:27.08 | Bradipo | Looks cool though. |
| 22:27.22 | ScytheBlade1 | It looks very cool, especially when connecting to those really slow boxes |
| 22:27.36 | Bradipo | Only the second connection benefits though. |
| 22:27.43 | ScytheBlade1 | It just likes to insist upon re-creating my socket file in my case |
| 22:28.03 | ScytheBlade1 | Bradipo, true, but that's solved with an `ssh -MNf host` upon logon |
| 22:28.31 | Bradipo | I don't normally login to a server just for port forwarding... |
| 22:28.54 | ScytheBlade1 | It's not just for port forwarding |
| 22:28.58 | ScytheBlade1 | It's for any connection that SSH would use |
| 22:29.06 | ScytheBlade1 | Be it interactive login, port forwarding, or scp |
| 22:29.11 | Bradipo | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:29.12 | Bradipo | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:29.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Or in this case |
| 22:29.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Keeping the session socket file active |
| 22:29.32 | Bradipo | According to the man page, -N is only for forwarding ports... |
| 22:29.35 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 22:29.40 | ScytheBlade1 | -f = fork into background |
| 22:29.44 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 22:29.49 | ScytheBlade1 | -f will refuse to work without a command, so add -N, tada |
| 22:29.58 | tensai | http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/290 |
| 22:30.09 | tensai | saw that one about connection sharing |
| 22:30.35 | Bradipo | I would put this a bit down the ladder as far as usefuless is concerned. |
| 22:30.58 | Bradipo | At least until I find a use for it. :-) |
| 22:31.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Bradipo, I have two hosts where connecting to takes a few seconds, and if I can reduce that to all of 0.5 seconds, I've found a use ;) |
| 22:31.32 | Bradipo | But don't you have to make two connections to benefit? |
| 22:31.37 | ScytheBlade1 | heh, found my problem |
| 22:31.41 | ScytheBlade1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:31.58 | ScytheBlade1 | Bradipo, you do, but the first one can be backgrounded upon login rather easily |
| 22:32.30 | lars-ut | echo "The time is `date +%m-%d-%Y` `date +%k:%M:%S`" | smbclient -M smbusername -U abusiveadmin > /dev/null |
| 22:32.56 | ScytheBlade1 | That's a fun command |
| 22:33.02 | ScytheBlade1 | Used on a 2k lab, anyways |
| 22:33.55 | Bradipo | Maybe if I didn't have screen this would be higher up on the usefulness ladder. |
| 22:33.57 | lars-ut | using it w/Asterisk |
| 22:34.17 | ScytheBlade1 | ha, got it |
| 22:34.17 | ScytheBlade1 | debug1: Applying options for * |
| 22:34.18 | ScytheBlade1 | debug1: auto-mux: Trying existing master |
| 22:34.18 | ScytheBlade1 | Last login: Thu Nov 10 09:34:36 2005 from c-67-171-124-6.hsd1.ut.comcast.net |
| 22:34.27 | ScytheBlade1 | Thank you very much tensai |
| 22:34.42 | Bradipo | I connect once to a slow server and then it just stays running in my screen. So the slow cost is incurred only once. |
| 22:35.17 | ScytheBlade1 | Well, whatever works for you ;) |
| 22:35.22 | ScytheBlade1 | I just found this little thing rather useful |
| 22:35.51 | tensai | it's clever, but I can't think of how I would use it |
| 22:36.26 | ScytheBlade1 | If you connect to a host often, and don't leave it up (or abuse scp), it's useful |
| 22:37.08 | ScytheBlade1 | Especially if the end-host is slow (be it internet latency or processor) |
| 22:37.17 | ScytheBlade1 | The session is already there, established, and authenticated |
| 22:37.39 | ScytheBlade1 | Keep the sockets in ~/.ssh/ and it'll default to 600 |
| 22:39.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Check out my first link: http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/SSH%20connection%20caching |
| 22:39.55 | ScytheBlade1 | section "Example measurement of the speedup" |
| 22:40.39 | Bradipo | ScytheBlade1: I just thought of a neat use for this master/slave ssh stuff. |
| 22:40.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Bradipo, oh? |
| 22:41.03 | Bradipo | Well, there is one cronjob that runs and it connects to a slow server frequently... |
| 22:41.15 | Bradipo | This might help. |
| 22:41.26 | ScytheBlade1 | it would indeed (though it depends on what the job does) |
| 22:41.40 | Bradipo | Well, most of the time spent is actually running the job, not the connection. |
| 22:41.51 | Bradipo | Because, of course, it is a slow server. |
| 22:42.01 | ScytheBlade1 | My primary uses for it are 1) connecting to a computer over at my school and 2) connecting to my 133MHz embedded board, which takes a good 30-40 seconds to authenticate |
| 22:42.07 | Bradipo | Does the remote SSH server need to support it? |
| 22:42.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Nope |
| 22:42.14 | Bradipo | That's a plus. |
| 22:42.22 | ScytheBlade1 | All it does is keep a local socket and a connection to the remote server |
| 22:42.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Note that the local socket can be in use by several ssh processes at once, too, so several instances of ssh/scp would all use the same socket |
| 22:43.52 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 22:43.57 | Bradipo | Well, it didn't create the socket... |
| 22:44.02 | Bradipo | So I imagine I have something wrong. |
| 22:44.13 | ScytheBlade1 | What's your config, and where'd you place it? |
| 22:44.16 | Bradipo | No config. |
| 22:44.19 | Bradipo | Just command line options. |
| 22:44.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Ah |
| 22:44.32 | ScytheBlade1 | you need to add -S /path/to/socket |
| 22:44.38 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 22:44.46 | ScytheBlade1 | so something like: ssh -MNfS /path/to/socket host |
| 22:44.48 | Bradipo | I did: ssh server -M -S /path/to/socket |
| 22:44.59 | ScytheBlade1 | did you close out of the SSH session? |
| 22:45.04 | Bradipo | No. |
| 22:45.06 | Bradipo | Its still running. |
| 22:45.09 | ScytheBlade1 | hmm |
| 22:45.28 | ScytheBlade1 | I just added three lines to my /etc/ssh/ssh_config file |
| 22:45.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Host * |
| 22:45.31 | ScytheBlade1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:45.31 | ScytheBlade1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:45.32 | Bradipo | ssh -M -S /tmp/blah blah@blah |
| 22:45.44 | ScytheBlade1 | and then did ssh -MNf host |
| 22:45.45 | ScytheBlade1 | worked for me |
| 22:45.51 | ScytheBlade1 | What version of SSH do you have? |
| 22:45.52 | Bradipo | I imagine it is disabled in my ssh_config. |
| 22:46.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Unless it's forcefully disabled, it ought to work |
| 22:46.18 | ScytheBlade1 | That aside, ~/.ssh/config takes priority over the system-level one |
| 22:46.20 | Bradipo | Yeah, I believe it is diabled. |
| 22:46.21 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 22:46.30 | Bradipo | And since I don't have it in either, it is likely disabled by default. |
| 22:46.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Ah |
| 22:47.09 | Bradipo | ... ControlPath with ControlMaster set to ``no'' (the default). |
| 22:47.14 | ScytheBlade1 | ding ding |
| 22:47.23 | ScytheBlade1 | Set it to Auto |
| 22:47.26 | ScytheBlade1 | err, "auto" |
| 22:49.28 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@dhcp35.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 22:49.37 | Bradipo | Why auto and not yes? |
| 22:49.50 | ScytheBlade1 | Otherwise it'll try to re-create the socket file on top of the existing one |
| 22:49.57 | ScytheBlade1 | And error out (which was my problem) |
| 22:50.18 | Bradipo | It should only try to create it if you are using -M right? |
| 22:50.31 | ScytheBlade1 | hmm, should |
| 22:50.52 | ScytheBlade1 | ...no |
| 22:50.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Because -M sets ControlMaster |
| 22:51.12 | ScytheBlade1 | and if you have ControlMaster yes, it'll try to re-create it again |
| 22:51.22 | Bradipo | Ahh, I see. |
| 22:51.48 | Bradipo | But then it shouldn't matter what the config has if I override with -M and -S right? |
| 22:52.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Right, it goes ssh options > ~/.ssh/config > /etc/ssh/ssh_config |
| 22:52.46 | ScytheBlade1 | But unless you have a way to DISABLE ControlMaster on the command line, if you have it set to yes in your config, it'll always be yes |
| 22:52.46 | Bradipo | So, it shouldn't even matter what my config has (on or off) if I specify -M and -S. |
| 22:52.53 | ScytheBlade1 | Which, looking at it now, was my problem |
| 22:55.15 | ScytheBlade1 | It's a little ambiguous, but hey at least I got it working ;) |
| 22:55.34 | ScytheBlade1 | on a LAN with keys, it's a little useless, but it has other uses |
| 22:59.41 | flyboy^ | I think this is pretty cool, but I just can't seem to figure out a way to use it. |
| 23:00.02 | flyboy^ | At least, for anything I do. |
| 23:00.11 | ScytheBlade1 | flyboy^, I have a 133MHz that I have to SSH to often, and abuse SCP with it. |
| 23:00.22 | flyboy^ | That would be a good use. |
| 23:00.25 | ScytheBlade1 | 40+ seconds to authenticate and login has been reduced to about 0 ;) |
| 23:01.29 | flyboy^ | Perhaps if I used svn a lot, or something. I usually establish SSH sessions for a period, then close them. Or use screen for long running jobs. |
| 23:02.04 | flyboy^ | Very few sys admin tasks require you to ssh over and over again to the same server, that I can think of any how. |
| 23:02.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, it's not something that everyone will use, but hey |
| 23:02.17 | flyboy^ | It's still cool though. |
| 23:02.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Very :) |
| 23:03.40 | flyboy^ | I wonder how many simultaneous open SSH sessions a server can support? 200? 300? 400? If so, then maybe I could find a use for it. :) |
| 23:03.55 | *** join/#utah Robdor (n=Robdor@customer67-50-41-124.veracitycom.net) |
| 23:04.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Heh |
| 23:04.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Probably a grand many of them ;) |
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| 23:40.38 | harleypig | Does anyone remember the name of that PPI based perl debugger? |
| 23:41.00 | Jayce^ | PPI? |
| 23:41.16 | harleypig | yeah, the perl parser interface. |
| 23:41.37 | harleypig | http://cpan.uwinnipeg.ca/dist/PPI |
| 23:41.48 | Jayce^ | is that ebug? |
| 23:42.06 | harleypig | Jayce^: That was it. Thanks. |
| 23:42.25 | Jayce^ | Devel::ebug |
| 23:42.34 | Jayce^ | so you can do perl -debug :) |
| 23:45.00 | harleypig | Jayce^: Yeah ... I like the browser interface. |
| 23:45.15 | harleypig | think we'll be able to get it working on our stuff? |
| 23:45.33 | *** part/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch@67-41-225-18.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 23:45.40 | Jayce^ | uhm, possibly, but just as likely not, they do some funky stuff there |
| 23:46.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Huh. This is funky. |
| 23:46.15 | harleypig | heh |
| 23:46.18 | ScytheBlade1 | server ~ # df -h |
| 23:46.19 | ScytheBlade1 | Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on |
| 23:46.19 | ScytheBlade1 | /dev/hda3 142G 106G 36G 75% / |
| 23:46.23 | ScytheBlade1 | server ~ # du -sh /srv |
| 23:46.23 | ScytheBlade1 | 107G /srv |
| 23:47.16 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm using more than I actually am, in theory. |
| 23:50.19 | tensai | http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/news/11032005_Broadband.pdf |
| 23:50.32 | tensai | draft legislation for regulating broadband and voip providers |
| 23:50.56 | tensai | requires all isps and voip providers to register with the fcc. won't that be fun. |
| 23:51.23 | Bradipo | Guess they really want people to be able to read that with such large fonts. |
| 23:51.31 | Bradipo | tensai: Rediculous. |
| 23:51.47 | Bradipo | Now they'll make napsters out of skype and other similar systems. |
| 23:52.06 | tensai | it's not *all* bad. it would require broadband, voip, and telecom companies to interoperate |
| 23:52.36 | Bradipo | But that's just wrong. We don't need regulation for cooperation. |
| 23:52.54 | tensai | requires 911 and e911 operators to offer services under RAND terms |
| 23:54.49 | Bradipo | I think FCC should be abolished anywa. |
| 23:54.52 | Bradipo | Anyway. |
| 23:55.07 | tensai | would grant first class status to voip providers in relation to getting numbers from NANPA |
| 23:55.57 | tensai | requires voip providers to offer relay services |
| 23:56.45 | Bradipo | Requires voip providers to slow innovation, bloat and change the definition of competition. |
| 23:57.00 | tensai | from what I've heard, this draft favors large telcos and cable companies. I just can't see how anything that benefits them will work out well in the long run. |
| 23:57.21 | tensai | Bradipo: there you go. that's a much simpler way to describe it. |
| 23:57.24 | Bradipo | There you have it... legalized monopolies. |
| 23:58.28 | *** join/#utah colera (n=colera@158.91.203.5) |
| 23:58.52 | Bradipo | Its very likely politics that has not allowed Utopia to come into my city... |
| 23:59.17 | mheath | I can actually express myself normally in here |
| 23:59.25 | mheath | My lip feels like a sponge |
| 23:59.28 | mheath | I can barely talk =\ |
| 23:59.57 | maquis | mheath: you're still alive! |