| 00:02.35 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 00:02.39 | emcnabb | very cool |
| 00:03.08 | levi | Hmm, I finished all the chicken comics. |
| 00:03.58 | RyanE | levi: pretty quick and entertaining read, eh? |
| 00:04.14 | levi | Some of them were pretty good. |
| 00:04.28 | RyanE | you could see his handwriting getting worse as you go back through time. |
| 00:06.10 | goozbach | ~say invoke goozbach |
| 00:06.11 | ibot | invoke goozbach |
| 00:10.38 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:31.51 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@128.123.232.3) |
| 00:32.35 | hans | ~collapse |
| 00:35.33 | maquis | wow |
| 00:35.42 | maquis | i just saw the greatest standard C function ever! |
| 00:35.46 | maquis | strfry() |
| 00:35.57 | jsmith | What does it do? |
| 00:37.44 | maquis | it "fries" the string by reordering the characters |
| 00:38.04 | jsmith | Hmmmmn... |
| 00:40.21 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (n=sjk36@simpsons.cs.byu.edu) |
| 00:46.14 | SpecialK | ~lart maquis |
| 00:53.37 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (n=emcnabb@70.88.130.148) |
| 01:01.22 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 01:05.56 | maquis | ~lart SpecialK |
| 01:06.07 | maquis | hans: what happened to brac? |
| 01:06.49 | maquis | ~lart specialk |
| 01:07.52 | hans | he's offline until I get the chance to fix him so he doesn't download ISOs looking for titles |
| 01:08.12 | maquis | cool! |
| 01:08.21 | maquis | he downloads isos if you post the link? |
| 01:08.23 | maquis | that rocks! |
| 01:08.45 | hans | the proper term is "that swaps!" |
| 01:09.23 | maquis | haha |
| 01:16.05 | mheath | hans: maybe just make it so he only downloads .htm*, .php, .asp, .aspx,etc.... |
| 01:19.25 | maquis | or just exclude iso gz tgz zip, etc |
| 01:19.48 | levi | Or look at the mime-type. |
| 01:20.04 | levi | If it's not text/html, there's probably not a title! |
| 01:22.19 | hans | exactly |
| 01:22.30 | hans | and the one line of code is sitting in my brain half-formed |
| 01:22.36 | hans | I'm just too lazy or too busy to open up an editor |
| 01:22.46 | levi | Tsk. |
| 01:22.55 | graphyx | tensai: About the sue comment. LOL!!! |
| 01:23.10 | levi | I still haven't finished my Markdown parser. |
| 01:24.00 | hans | speaking of sue. soon the RIAA/MPAA is going to want to DRM our input ports (eyes, ears, etc) |
| 01:38.34 | hans | so freebsd has gone pokemon |
| 01:40.06 | maquis | hans: what do you mean by that? |
| 01:40.33 | hans | ~slashdot |
| 01:46.53 | hans | guess it's off the top ten |
| 01:47.41 | maquis | does anyone think that this RIAA/MPAA bill will pass? |
| 01:48.18 | maquis | hmm |
| 01:48.25 | maquis | i see the article you're pointing at |
| 01:48.35 | maquis | it's not as cute as beastie, i'm afraid |
| 01:52.01 | hans | i think it's not timeless |
| 01:52.16 | hans | it's going to look so-2000s in a few years |
| 01:55.43 | mheath | ~lart sourceforge |
| 01:56.24 | hans | they wrote me back saying they hate the download system too |
| 01:56.28 | hans | at least we're on the same page |
| 02:06.57 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:09.00 | maquis | https://https.openbsd.org/images/tshirt-4.jpg |
| 02:09.17 | maquis | hans: i prefer beastie |
| 02:09.21 | maquis | beastie is cute |
| 02:18.37 | *** join/#utah byronc (n=byron@c-24-10-174-94.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:31.01 | mheath | maquis: With the new FreeBSD logo, I don't think any BSD project is uinsg beastie anymore. |
| 02:31.45 | maquis | mheath: that's sad |
| 02:31.52 | mheath | *using |
| 02:32.04 | maquis | beastie is much cuter than the blowfish and than the new freebsd logo |
| 02:32.18 | maquis | i'm not sure what netbsd's logo is, but if it's cuter than beastie.... |
| 02:32.38 | mheath | maquis: Isn't he Daemon, not 'beastie'? |
| 02:33.20 | mheath | http://www.netbsd.org/images/NetBSD.png <---NetBSD logo |
| 02:33.24 | mheath | They've got.....a flag. |
| 02:39.43 | graphyx | That's not too bad. |
| 02:39.53 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:42.14 | maquis | ummm... yeah... out of all of them, i'd say that netbsd's is the worst |
| 02:46.04 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 02:56.21 | spr | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group#History |
| 02:56.35 | spr | 8th paragraph down |
| 02:56.58 | maquis | spr: you're famous :) |
| 02:57.20 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:02.56 | spr | ~lart amcnabb |
| 03:03.07 | amcnabb | Ha! |
| 03:04.53 | SpecialK | spr: who added you to that article? |
| 03:05.45 | graphyx | that's a dumb lart |
| 03:06.00 | graphyx | I prefer the clever ones. |
| 03:11.27 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 03:13.43 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog_u@shylonhunter.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:15.13 | SpecialK | ~lart graphyx |
| 03:15.37 | graphyx | yeah.. like that one. It is slightly clever. |
| 03:15.44 | graphyx | ~rlart |
| 03:16.20 | SpecialK | ~rlart |
| 03:16.40 | fishyfire | hey! |
| 03:16.55 | fishyfire | ~lart SpecialK and ecen370 |
| 03:17.07 | SpecialK | It's an rlart (random), can't control it |
| 03:17.22 | SpecialK | Is there something particularly bad about 370 tonight? |
| 03:17.32 | SpecialK | more crazy MATlab garbage? |
| 03:18.25 | fishyfire | ummm i dunno yet |
| 03:18.37 | fishyfire | i am still working on studying for a physics test |
| 03:18.54 | fishyfire | i'll get to that tomorrow |
| 03:19.13 | fishyfire | i saw the random part.... |
| 03:22.50 | SpecialZ | Yay!! Physics!!! |
| 03:22.54 | fishyfire | have you looked at it yet? |
| 03:23.17 | SpecialZ | nope, CS 324 and 465 sit above it in the priority que at present |
| 03:23.28 | fishyfire | lol, yeah know how that goes |
| 03:23.28 | SpecialZ | queue |
| 03:23.38 | fishyfire | the priority queue at least |
| 03:23.43 | fishyfire | not the classes... |
| 03:25.53 | fishyfire | anyone ever tried mint chocolate chip butter pecan ice cream? |
| 03:32.09 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 03:32.47 | SpecialZ | Is that Odds 'n Ends from Maceys? |
| 03:33.02 | fishyfire | yep! the one and only |
| 03:33.11 | fishyfire | it's actually pretty good |
| 03:33.21 | fishyfire | unique but not bad |
| 03:33.31 | SpecialZ | But that is a random combination which will never be the same twice |
| 03:33.45 | fishyfire | this is true.... |
| 03:34.17 | levi | Albertson's has an Odds 'n Ends ice cream, too. |
| 03:36.25 | fishyfire | ever tried it? |
| 03:38.31 | levi | Yeah, it's often pretty good. |
| 03:49.38 | fishyfire | SpecialZ.... so have you used MATLAB before this class? |
| 03:53.49 | SpecialZ | in 380 |
| 03:53.59 | SpecialZ | and even then they don't teach you much |
| 03:54.19 | fishyfire | i haven't taken 380 yet, so this is my first dive into it |
| 03:54.34 | SpecialZ | It can be a very annoying program |
| 03:54.55 | SpecialZ | I worked for National Instruments this summer and they had Matlabs website blocked. |
| 03:55.02 | fishyfire | LOL |
| 03:55.04 | graphyx | why? |
| 03:55.06 | maquis | haha |
| 03:55.14 | graphyx | Are they a competitor? |
| 03:55.20 | SpecialZ | a multi million dollar law suit is what I heard. |
| 03:55.27 | graphyx | fun fun fun. |
| 03:55.29 | graphyx | nite all |
| 03:55.34 | fishyfire | nite |
| 03:55.43 | SpecialZ | why I hate software patents |
| 03:56.43 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 03:59.06 | mheath | Wow |
| 03:59.16 | fishyfire | ? |
| 03:59.27 | mheath | the phrase "Firefox support is coming soon. Please be patient :-)" actually appears on a Microsoft website. |
| 03:59.41 | fishyfire | LOL |
| 04:01.01 | mheath | although, it appears that Microsoft's new www.live.com is almost exactly the same idea and functionality as Google's personalized homepage |
| 04:01.33 | mheath | And, not only that, but the interface is almost identical! |
| 04:03.04 | fishyfire | that's funny! |
| 04:03.31 | mheath | I dunno |
| 04:03.42 | mheath | I think Microsoft is coming along, though, slowly. |
| 04:03.56 | mheath | In a dragging-their-feet-in-very-way-possible sort of way |
| 04:06.06 | mheath | You have to remember, Microsoft *did* used to have a UNIX for their main OS |
| 04:06.18 | mheath | they were smart once; they may be made smart again ;) |
| 04:09.15 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:09.32 | *** part/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:14.46 | Newsome | ooh, a Butterfinger. |
| 04:20.41 | maquis | Newsome: did your son get lots of candy? |
| 04:21.52 | Newsome | enough to fill the plastic pumpkin! |
| 04:21.59 | maquis | mmmm |
| 04:22.35 | Newsome | I'd rather eat it myself than to have to clean sticky fingerprints off everything in the house |
| 04:22.58 | maquis | yeah... i don't see that being a hard decision |
| 04:23.04 | Newsome | well, I'd rather eat it myself. The sticky fingerprints thing is just an added bonus |
| 04:23.12 | maquis | :) |
| 04:23.18 | maquis | just don't let him catch you eating it |
| 04:23.41 | fishyfire | how old is he? |
| 04:24.05 | maquis | he's little and cute... :) |
| 04:24.05 | fishyfire | old enough to be able to tell when "that one piece" is missing? |
| 04:24.09 | Newsome | He's 4 1/2 |
| 04:24.39 | fishyfire | cool |
| 04:24.49 | Newsome | nah. He's not even asserting ownership over it all :) |
| 04:24.51 | maquis | Newsome: show fishyfire the bee picture |
| 04:24.55 | maquis | it's the cutest |
| 04:25.02 | fishyfire | nice! |
| 04:25.23 | maquis | (if you still have it up someplace...) |
| 04:25.28 | Newsome | http://sorensonfamily.com/pics/picalbum.php?mode=view&album=2005%2F10_October&pic=20051025-001.jpg |
| 04:25.48 | Newsome | and http://sorensonfamily.com/pics/picalbum.php?mode=view&album=2005%2F10_October&pic=20051031-001.jpg |
| 04:25.54 | fishyfire | how cute! |
| 04:25.57 | maquis | :) |
| 04:26.00 | Newsome | and http://sorensonfamily.com/pics/picalbum.php?mode=view&album=2005%2F10_October&pic=20051031-002.jpg |
| 04:26.03 | Newsome | thanks :) |
| 04:26.36 | maquis | Newsome: btw, i really like the message to "Dad" on the whiteboard :) |
| 04:26.52 | maquis | i just noticed it |
| 04:27.00 | Newsome | hehe :) |
| 04:27.15 | maquis | you're loved :) |
| 04:31.21 | maquis | Newsome: quick sanity check... from what i can see, the only difference between index() and strchr() is that one returns an index into the string and the other returns a pointer, right? |
| 04:31.49 | maquis | or... |
| 04:31.51 | maquis | not even that |
| 04:31.56 | maquis | now i'm even more confused |
| 04:31.59 | maquis | what is the difference |
| 04:31.59 | maquis | ? |
| 04:32.09 | Newsome | hmm |
| 04:32.22 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:32.23 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:32.31 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:32.31 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:32.57 | levi | One is part of string.h, the other is part of strings.h |
| 04:33.14 | Newsome | I'll bet that index was introduced in BSD, but strchr was borrowed for use in SV. |
| 04:33.30 | maquis | levi: then i should probably use the one in string.h, since i'm already including that |
| 04:33.36 | Newsome | use strchr, since it's POSIX and SVID |
| 04:33.38 | maquis | Newsome: that makes sense |
| 04:34.12 | levi | index() is the POSIX one. |
| 04:34.41 | Newsome | not according to the man page |
| 04:34.42 | levi | strchr() is ISO C90 |
| 04:34.58 | Newsome | index() - BSD 4.3 |
| 04:35.02 | levi | Our man pages must have conflicting information. |
| 04:35.07 | Newsome | strchr() - SVID 3, POSIX, BSD 4.3, ISO 9899 |
| 04:35.20 | hans | w00t. snd with ruby support on my laptop |
| 04:35.34 | hans | hey, that's my fan! it does work. :) |
| 04:35.34 | levi | The functions strchr() and strrchr() conform to ISO/IEC 9899:1990 |
| 04:35.35 | levi | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:35.44 | hans | almost didn't hear it for the dishwasher |
| 04:36.07 | levi | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:36.07 | levi | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:36.08 | levi | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:36.16 | hans | well strchr is in my posix book |
| 04:36.53 | maquis | hans: i wish i had that problem with my fan |
| 04:36.53 | levi | Maybe I'm misinterpreting the information. |
| 04:37.00 | mheath | Is anyone here familiar with what work has been done, as far as Natural Speech parsing? |
| 04:37.13 | hans | only marginally |
| 04:37.29 | maquis | mheath: nope... but i've seen a little on natural language parsing |
| 04:37.30 | levi | Not this again. |
| 04:37.33 | mheath | I'm looking for information on various techniques, libraries, etc. |
| 04:37.49 | maquis | mheath: what for? |
| 04:37.59 | hans | http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/posix/ |
| 04:38.05 | hans | that's the book I have. love it |
| 04:38.27 | hans | but not quite as much as I love this one, which I also have: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/posix4/ |
| 04:38.32 | mheath | maquis: Well, I'm working on a simple Java project using the Java library for ALICE |
| 04:38.38 | Tene | mheath: #lojban >.> |
| 04:38.47 | maquis | mheath: no idea what that is... |
| 04:39.38 | mheath | maquis: ALICE is the 'brain' of an artificially intelligent bot |
| 04:40.06 | mheath | The group that made her defined an XML language for outlining various bits of memory in her 'brain' |
| 04:40.07 | maquis | like eliza? |
| 04:40.44 | mheath | and there are various libraries and bindings that allow you to use that brain memory |
| 04:40.50 | mheath | maquis: Not familiar with eliza |
| 04:41.05 | mheath | I was working on some stuff in Java, using the Java ALICE reader.. |
| 04:41.16 | maquis | http://www-ai.ijs.si/eliza/eliza.html |
| 04:42.00 | mheath | maquis: No where near as dumb. |
| 04:42.46 | mheath | maquis: ELIZA reminds me of a program that Creative Labs distibuted in the late 80's (early 90's?) to demonstrate a crude text-to-speech engine they developed |
| 04:42.58 | Newsome | Dr. Sbaitso! |
| 04:43.03 | mheath | Newsome: exactly! |
| 04:43.30 | maquis | mheath: mmk |
| 04:43.33 | maquis | so, what are you doing with it |
| 04:43.34 | maquis | ? |
| 04:43.54 | mheath | maquis: play with http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=f5d922d97e345aa1 |
| 04:44.24 | mheath | (ignore the annoying flash thing and the advertisements - its all covering up a really powerful and free system) |
| 04:45.20 | mheath | maquis: I'm designing a client for it, using a freely available speech-to-text and a text-to-speech engine |
| 04:45.24 | mheath | So you can talk with your computer |
| 04:45.55 | mheath | And I'm hoping to design an extension for it that would allow you to actually do things with your computer |
| 04:46.13 | mheath | (rather than just having it converse with you on meaningless, preprogrammed topics) |
| 04:46.43 | maquis | w00t |
| 04:46.50 | maquis | it didn't take me long to get her mad at me |
| 04:47.02 | maquis | ah... |
| 04:47.04 | maquis | that's interesting |
| 04:47.08 | maquis | just... do me a favor... |
| 04:47.19 | maquis | don't make it follow the users mouse with its eyes/head |
| 04:48.53 | mheath | maquis: hahah, yeah |
| 04:49.01 | mheath | You'd think people would have learned from Logitech's mistake |
| 04:49.07 | mheath | (mouseman or whatever it was called) |
| 04:49.35 | maquis | xeyes doesn't turn its head |
| 04:49.43 | maquis | and... the other thing |
| 04:49.49 | maquis | don't use the word "groovy" |
| 04:51.26 | mheath | maquis: what do you think would be a cool thing to be able to do via talking to your computer? |
| 04:51.40 | mheath | Or rather, what would be a cool technology showcase? |
| 04:52.17 | Tene | lights |
| 04:52.52 | Supaplex | camera |
| 04:53.00 | mheath | Imagine this: |
| 04:53.06 | maquis | mheath: when speech recognition first came out, on OS9, my family loved the knock-knock jokes |
| 04:53.39 | mheath | "Please dim the lights" *The lights in your room dim* |
| 04:53.46 | mheath | "Goodnight." |
| 04:53.46 | fishyfire | order it to do your homework, and it spits the answers neatly out of the printer... ;) |
| 04:53.57 | maquis | fishyfire: i like that idea!!!! |
| 04:54.21 | mheath | "Goodnight, Mr. Heath. Your alarm clock is set for 6:30 AM, and I'll wake you by playing _____ by _____. Have a good night." |
| 04:54.32 | maquis | mheath: if it could handle the music, ie, volume up, volume down, change songs, play for one hour, then turn off |
| 04:55.38 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:55.39 | maquis | ALICE: I will remember you said that when robots take over the World. |
| 04:56.07 | mheath | maquis: you better watch out |
| 04:56.44 | mheath | ibot: We should hook you up with ALICE |
| 04:56.51 | mheath | ibot: get you a lady bot |
| 04:56.52 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:56.52 | maquis | Human: it wasn't a comparison |
| 04:56.52 | maquis | ALICE: It sounded like one. |
| 04:56.52 | maquis | Human: i'm sorry |
| 04:56.52 | maquis | ALICE: Do you really mean it? |
| 04:56.54 | maquis | Human: no |
| 04:56.57 | maquis | ALICE: I didn't think you did. |
| 04:57.30 | mheath | maquis: Play nice. :) |
| 05:00.53 | mheath | maquis: hahaha |
| 05:01.16 | mheath | "A guerilla fighter in the French underground during World War II; IE, 'A Band of Maquis'" |
| 05:03.38 | maquis | mheath: why play nice? |
| 05:03.43 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:03.43 | maquis | ALICE: I hear pride. |
| 05:03.43 | maquis | Human: that is correct |
| 05:03.43 | maquis | ALICE: I knew I was right. |
| 05:03.43 | maquis | Human: and you thought i was prideful. |
| 05:03.45 | maquis | ALICE: Not that I know of. |
| 05:03.48 | maquis | Human: you just said it |
| 05:03.50 | maquis | ALICE: That's not what I meant. |
| 05:06.46 | *** join/#utah tensai (n=tensai@kite.zmonkey.org) |
| 05:07.05 | tensai | maquis: did you see my message? |
| 05:07.33 | mheath | I'm considering starting on another project, though, that uses Globe.... |
| 05:07.51 | maquis | tensai: yeah |
| 05:07.54 | maquis | sounds good |
| 05:08.02 | tensai | will you be in class? |
| 05:08.07 | mheath | A framework for an object oriented, global, distributed network... |
| 05:08.08 | maquis | not yet |
| 05:08.13 | maquis | i'll be getting ready for school |
| 05:08.17 | maquis | it's a good time to do it |
| 05:09.24 | mheath | IE, a client requests an object by a unique identifier, giving the request to a sort of Nameserver |
| 05:09.44 | mheath | and the nameserver communicates with other nameservers to determine the location(s) of said objects |
| 05:11.30 | mheath | A client, when creating its own objects, could take a unique, generated identifier, or a registered identifier |
| 05:11.35 | mheath | (like "google") |
| 05:11.50 | mheath | Imagine this |
| 05:11.58 | mheath | You go to your web browser |
| 05:12.20 | mheath | And type in just "google" |
| 05:13.10 | mheath | Your web browser sends a request to the object nameserver for "google". Your local object nameserver would connect to others or reference caches until, say, a nameserver in California says "I've got it!" |
| 05:13.39 | maquis | ok |
| 05:14.04 | mheath | And your webbrowser ends up with a reference (for now, lets say an IP) to the server that hosts the main google object |
| 05:14.27 | maquis | mheath: let's say i put in "nasa" |
| 05:14.36 | maquis | does it take me to nasa.gov, nasa.org, nasa.com, etc |
| 05:15.30 | mheath | maquis: it takes you to whatever object is registered with the nameservers as being named "nasa" |
| 05:16.06 | mheath | Once your browser has the reference to the 'google' object.... |
| 05:16.54 | maquis | so, this would require a new internet infrastructure and new browsers?? |
| 05:18.22 | mheath | it can call, via a secure RPC, for example, something like "google.getWebsite("/")" |
| 05:18.36 | mheath | Thats a crude example |
| 05:18.57 | mheath | maquis: slight modifications to browsers and other clients, but not a new internet infrastructure |
| 05:19.04 | mheath | It exists on TCP/IP networking |
| 05:20.27 | maquis | interesting |
| 05:20.31 | tensai | how exactly is that better than the current protocol set? |
| 05:23.54 | mheath | tensai: Entirely object oriented internet, for one thing |
| 05:24.39 | mheath | tensai: It opens the door for truly anonymous communication, thanks to the way the routing, naming, and referencing would work (Which I didn't go into any detail about, really) |
| 05:27.42 | mheath | tensai: rather than protocol and port based communication, like the Internet works today, you've essentially got Object and Type based communication. |
| 05:29.00 | mheath | A webpage is an Object of the type XHTMLStream, for example, rather than being what a server returns when you communicate with it using the HTTP protocol on port 80 |
| 05:29.37 | mheath | An abstracted, object oriented, global network |
| 05:30.30 | mheath | Routed in a way that allows anonymous communication; Your computer never know on any level that its communicating with "1.2.3.4", it just knows it has and is using a reference to the google object. |
| 05:31.12 | maquis | but how does 1.2.3.4 know who to give the google object to? |
| 05:31.18 | tensai | I still don't see how that's actually improved. I don't buy that it can be done anonymously. |
| 05:31.40 | RyanE | it's just like AOL. You can type 'Oprah' instead of 'Oprah.com'. Woo Woo! |
| 05:32.12 | mheath | RyanE: No. |
| 05:32.32 | RyanE | maquis: not yet. :) |
| 05:32.49 | RyanE | mheath: just joking, obviously, but I don't really see the point. |
| 05:33.09 | RyanE | you're squishing the namespace. |
| 05:33.27 | tensai | sounds like somebody who's never written rpc code before |
| 05:35.09 | mheath | Its like, your Google Talk client can call "getObjectByID("google").talk.connect(username, password)" |
| 05:35.27 | mheath | And end up with a Connection object |
| 05:36.44 | mheath | Its like, your web browser can call "getObjectByID("google").www.getPage("/")" and end up with an XHTMLStream |
| 05:38.46 | mheath | RyanE: And I really don't see your point. I fail to see how what I'm doing is just "squishing the namespace". |
| 05:42.09 | maquis | mheath: instead of there being foo.com, foo.net, foo.biz, foo.org, etc, you're just making it foo |
| 05:42.15 | maquis | which squishes the namespace |
| 05:42.24 | tensai | you realize that to send these requests you'd have to marshall all the parameters. voila! you've got a protocol. |
| 05:44.03 | mheath | tensai: No, you've got programs that use a certain API :) |
| 05:44.11 | mheath | They're merely expecting a method to behave in a particular way |
| 05:44.15 | tensai | *same thing* |
| 05:44.36 | RyanE | flip sides of the same album. |
| 05:46.55 | mheath | tensai: not to mention the advantages from a programming perspective |
| 05:47.36 | mheath | a standard networking library would allow any program to simply and easy use the features of any given feature of a server |
| 05:47.49 | tensai | sorry, not convinced. you need an rpc library which will look a lot like a protocol library. |
| 05:48.07 | *** join/#utah SpecialZ (n=Scott@128.187.239.183) |
| 05:48.16 | mheath | tensai: take a look at Javas RMI |
| 05:48.26 | mheath | all you'd need is interfaces for the RPC system to reference |
| 05:48.29 | tensai | mheath: thanks, but I've written many lines of java rmi |
| 05:48.40 | tensai | you think rmi just happens magically? |
| 05:49.47 | mheath | IE, your web browser would have an interface that says it expects the server to have getWebsite, getDirectoryListing, etc methods |
| 05:50.00 | RyanE | mheath: IE is *not* my web browser. :) |
| 05:50.08 | tensai | RyanE: lol |
| 05:50.39 | levi | mheath: Dude, you really ought to not reinvent the internet. |
| 05:51.36 | levi | mheath: Yours will suck. Not because you're stupid or anything, but because the internet has a /lot/ more design time in it by now than you could hope to come up with. |
| 05:51.47 | SpecialZ | But then he could give Al Gore a run for his money. |
| 05:52.11 | RyanE | levi: yeah, *that*'s not argumentative, no, not at all... :) |
| 05:52.31 | levi | RyanE: I never claimed I wasn't argumentative, especially with mheath. |
| 05:52.35 | tensai | levi: reinventing is fine *if* it's warranted. if it's just the same thing done with different words, then it's a complete waste. |
| 05:52.56 | mheath | levi: Hmm, lets look at this |
| 05:53.21 | mheath | "Hey, Linus. Berkley's BSD already has a /lot/ more design time in it by now than you could hope to come up with. Yours will suck." |
| 05:53.41 | RyanE | mheath: there's already a way for me to request services from a site with a name. I use the name, and a port number. Once I have opened this up, I can use ANY object-oriented language to manipulate it to my hearts' content. |
| 05:53.47 | levi | mheath: Linux /did/ suck. |
| 05:54.04 | RyanE | and still does. It just sucks less than many alternatives. |
| 05:54.06 | levi | mheath: And we already have a nice open platform to build on. |
| 05:54.09 | RyanE | and improves. |
| 05:54.24 | mheath | Stallman: Yours will suck. Not because you're stupid or anything, but because UNIX has a /lot/ more design time in it by now than you could hope to come up with." |
| 05:54.54 | RyanE | mheath: probably more like: Tannenbaum: Yours will suck. Because it's not a microkernel architecture. |
| 05:54.59 | levi | mheath: Linux was a Unix clone, meaning it borrowed all the design work. |
| 05:55.26 | mheath | levi: how is Linux a UNIX clone? |
| 05:55.32 | levi | ... |
| 05:55.33 | mheath | Seriously |
| 05:55.41 | levi | Seriously, indeed. |
| 05:55.43 | RyanE | mheath: It's POSIX compliant. POSIX is the UNIX standard. |
| 05:56.20 | RyanE | it was a clone of minix, a unix variant. |
| 05:56.24 | mheath | RyanE: Linux is not POSIX compliant. GNU Libc is close to POSIX compliant, and is coded in a way that makes the appropriate linux kernel calls. |
| 05:56.37 | mheath | Linux is not something that should be POSIX compliant. It is a kernel, not an API. |
| 05:56.42 | mheath | Linux is a kernel |
| 05:56.57 | mheath | It is the userland tools and libraries that make it UNIX-like, not the kernel (for the most part) |
| 05:57.43 | mheath | I mean, true, Linux supports some UNIX-like features |
| 05:57.55 | RyanE | ok, how's this: GNU/Linux is a UNIX clone. |
| 05:58.01 | RyanE | whaaaaatever. |
| 05:58.02 | mheath | RyanE: there you go. |
| 05:58.18 | levi | mheath: Dude, you're picking nits. Stupid ones. And you've changed the subject. |
| 05:58.32 | RyanE | you've switched subjects... how is shrinking the namespace and included the protocol type in the name made app development easier? |
| 05:58.51 | maquis | Newsome: the point is that mheath thinks he can redesign the internet |
| 05:59.10 | Newsome | good luck there. |
| 05:59.20 | mheath | RyanE: because applications can get whatever object they need to work with or manipulate via a standard call |
| 05:59.40 | levi | mheath: Have you looked at SOAP at all? |
| 05:59.45 | RyanE | sockets are a pretty standard call |
| 05:59.46 | tensai | sounds like a perfect description of an internet protocol |
| 05:59.47 | maquis | Newsome: he's also planning a useful speech recognition system |
| 05:59.58 | RyanE | and a new distribution based on HURD |
| 06:00.11 | mheath | RyanE: No, I mean...Say your client needs to use HTML pages |
| 06:00.27 | maquis | and 200$ tablet pcs that can be used for video-editing |
| 06:00.29 | RyanE | socket call to a name:port 80. |
| 06:00.29 | mheath | Like, it downloads HTML pages and uses them in some way (parses them, displays them, whatever) |
| 06:00.54 | mheath | RyanE: You have a choice |
| 06:00.56 | RyanE | I can wrap the socket in some standard object call pretty easily, say an IO object in Perl or Ruby. Abstracts all that crap away. |
| 06:01.00 | mheath | You can code your own HTTP client |
| 06:01.16 | mheath | or you can use an HTTP client library |
| 06:01.39 | RyanE | or I can write extensions to a full-blown, debugged web browser. |
| 06:01.41 | mheath | You have to deal with a protocol |
| 06:02.16 | levi | maquis: Don't forget the Desktop Linux distro that will finally be successful. |
| 06:02.28 | maquis | levi: right.. forgot that one |
| 06:02.32 | RyanE | levi: isn't that the HURD-based one? I can't keep it straight |
| 06:02.35 | tensai | and this web page, how does it get transmitted reliably? how does it get from point A to point B? |
| 06:02.37 | Newsome | how much of the OSI model would you like to reimplement? |
| 06:02.37 | levi | RyanE: Nope. |
| 06:02.50 | RyanE | Newsome: poorly. :) |
| 06:03.01 | mheath | With this implementation (Which, by the way, I'm NOT talking about freakin' coding; I'm discussing something that already exists), though, you'd just make one standard call, and have whatever you need to have |
| 06:03.14 | levi | Hey, you guys are saying what you jumped on me for saying, just not quite so directly. :) |
| 06:03.15 | mheath | True, theres a protocol, but its an abstracted, simplified protocol |
| 06:03.17 | maquis | hans: this already exists??? |
| 06:03.23 | mheath | immensely more simple than coding an HTTP client |
| 06:03.24 | maquis | er |
| 06:03.25 | maquis | wow |
| 06:03.27 | maquis | i can't type |
| 06:03.35 | RyanE | hans? |
| 06:03.35 | maquis | mheath: this exists already? |
| 06:03.46 | maquis | hans: sorry... i missed the m |
| 06:03.56 | tensai | maquis: mhans? |
| 06:04.04 | mheath | maquis: Yes! You missed that, at the beginning of this conversation? |
| 06:04.08 | mheath | maquis: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~steen/globe/ |
| 06:04.08 | maquis | tensai: i was trying to do mh<tab> |
| 06:04.36 | maquis | mheath: so what are you doing? |
| 06:05.04 | mheath | maquis: writing some simple object-namserver stuff |
| 06:05.19 | levi | Ahh, more stuff from VU. |
| 06:05.33 | mheath | (see ftp://ftp.cs.vu.nl/pub/papers/globe/commag.98.pdf) |
| 06:05.53 | levi | And good ol' Andy Tanenbaum at the helm. |
| 06:06.24 | Newsome | looks like just another "web services" implementation |
| 06:06.45 | levi | Newsome: Except it doesn't ride on HTTP. |
| 06:07.01 | mheath | Newsome: their introductory paragraph sucks at explaining it, to be honest |
| 06:07.07 | mheath | you have to read some of their papers |
| 06:07.29 | mheath | levi: Tannenbaum has little to do with this |
| 06:08.04 | mheath | He is a professor in the main department and major this project is concerned with; itis somewhat inevitable he'd be mentioned in the staff, and he's probably contributed some |
| 06:08.24 | mheath | He is not the main developer, however |
| 06:08.25 | levi | mheath: Well, he's listed as an author of the introductory paper, too. |
| 06:08.29 | mheath | and not the lead developer |
| 06:08.45 | levi | The developers are often not the architects of such things. |
| 06:09.33 | levi | Anyway, his involvement doesn't mean anything to me, it just makes it obvious how you found the project. |
| 06:09.36 | Newsome | as if there aren't enough RPC mechanisms out there already. |
| 06:09.59 | RyanE | choice is always good, no? :) |
| 06:10.21 | Newsome | what itch do the existing implementations miss? |
| 06:10.33 | mheath | Newsome: read the papers. |
| 06:10.41 | mheath | Newsome: some go into this in depth |
| 06:10.46 | mheath | *into that question in depth |
| 06:11.39 | levi | Well, given a research staff and funding behind it, it is less likely to suck than if mheath was going it on his own. I'm glad to hear it's not another mheath dream project. |
| 06:11.58 | mheath | And, RyanE, please stop saying that I'm creating a Hurd distribution. |
| 06:12.28 | mheath | I made the mistake of mentioning to you that I was customizing my GNU system using some customized Slackware package building scripts |
| 06:12.33 | levi | mheath: Again, I don't mean to slight your abilities; it's just that you're a single person with too many commitments to tackle something of that scale. |
| 06:12.58 | mheath | Which you somehow interpreted as "I'm making a GNU software distribution!" |
| 06:13.47 | mheath | levi: tackle what, exactly? I've done nothing but talk about GLOBE, and mention a few quick little projects I'm going to do for my CS class |
| 06:13.47 | RyanE | mheath: It's not my fault if I can't keep straight all the things you've publically said you were either going to produce or were looking into. You didn't mention it to me, but to #utah. |
| 06:14.21 | mheath | levi: I'm kinda confused about what you're saying is too big for me to tackle |
| 06:14.26 | RyanE | a $200 computer as a 'quick little project'? |
| 06:14.50 | levi | mheath: I thought you were going to design and implement this 'globe' thing yourself. |
| 06:14.52 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@c-67-169-244-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 06:15.32 | RyanE | mheath: I was also under this mistaken impression that you were doing this yourself. I apologize for that. |
| 06:15.50 | mheath | levi: ......Globe is a research project that has involved dozens of graduates and Ph.D students, and has been going for over a decade. I was discussing it |
| 06:16.09 | mheath | I was originally discussing a small thing I was working on that *used* it, but the conversation got rather turned from it to Globe directly. |
| 06:17.23 | RyanE | mheath: I think if you would've included the URL to Globe from the beginning, we may have been a bit more clued-in. If you did, I totally missed it. |
| 06:17.42 | levi | mheath: You said you were thinking of building something with Globe, and then you described what Globe was. I thought you were describing what you were building. |
| 06:17.44 | mheath | RyanE: I mentioned it in the beginning |
| 06:17.56 | mheath | RyanE: I wasn't aware I had to include URLs to everything I discuss |
| 06:18.02 | mheath | See, I'm programming with java (java.sun.com) |
| 06:18.25 | mheath | and using RMI (java.sun.com/products/jdk/rmi0 |
| 06:18.26 | levi | mheath: An ellipsis is not a very good connector of ideas. |
| 06:18.31 | RyanE | mheath: just making a suggestion, dude. |
| 06:19.08 | RyanE | I suspect many more people know what Java and RMI are than Globe. |
| 06:19.43 | RyanE | it's a bit disingenuous to equate not putting the java URL in your mention and not putting in one for Globe. :) |
| 06:20.01 | Tene | I also didn't get the connection that you were discussing an existing project and not one you were starting. |
| 06:20.03 | levi | mheath: So, my reaction was based on a misunderstanding of what you wrote. In my defense, what you wrote was unclear, and I think my interpretation of it was reasonable considering I didn't know what Globe was and you have a tendency to take on grand projects. |
| 06:20.41 | mheath | <mheath> I'm considering starting on another project, though, that uses Globe.... |
| 06:20.47 | mheath | <mheath> A framework for an object oriented, global, distributed network... |
| 06:20.52 | levi | Yes. |
| 06:20.53 | mheath | I even tell you what Globe is. |
| 06:20.57 | RyanE | (without any real reference to globe) |
| 06:21.30 | levi | mheath: I wasn't sure what the antecedent for 'A framework' was. It could be either 'another project' or 'Globe'. |
| 06:21.35 | Tene | Yeah |
| 06:21.39 | Tene | it could refer to either |
| 06:21.52 | levi | I assumed you were describing your project. |
| 06:21.53 | Tene | And even then, that doesn't mean you're not just giving a name to a part of your project |
| 06:23.05 | Tene | An ellipsis is a poor way of indicating a relative clause. |
| 06:23.26 | Tene | Traditionally, you use commas. |
| 06:24.23 | levi | Ahh, the ambiguities of language. |
| 06:34.19 | levi | mheath: It strikes me as odd that you are so interested in Globe considering your stated opinion of object-oriented programming. |
| 06:37.48 | xbmodder | "= |
| 06:42.15 | levi | If I understand this correctly, Globe is an attempt to combine the computing model of DCOM/CORBA with the distribution and caching model of HTTP. |
| 06:42.41 | levi | (roughly speaking, of course) |
| 06:55.17 | levi | Anyway, it sounds like any language that wants to communicate through the Globe network needs a pretty heavy software stack to do so. That'll be one of the many huge barriers to adoption. |
| 06:55.37 | levi | I would like for such a thing to be widely adopted, but sadly I don't think it's going to happen. |
| 06:58.41 | findlay | my roomate says that the next revolution in languages will be concurrency, which is difficult to provide in a von Neumann environment |
| 06:59.13 | Supaplex | what ever it is you're talking about, I think i'll sleep on it |
| 06:59.15 | levi | HTTP is successful because, given a TCP/IP stack and the HTTP RFCs, you can easily implement a basic server or client. DNS is successful because of momentum; it's been around since the beginning, it works well, and there's been no need to change it. |
| 06:59.51 | findlay | DNS as in BIND? |
| 06:59.56 | levi | findlay: Yes. |
| 07:01.06 | levi | findlay: mheath was talking earlier about a system called 'Globe' that would replace the basic infrastructure of the web with a distributed object system, a global name service, and remote procedure calls. |
| 07:01.06 | findlay | I know the Apache developers were many on internet standards comittees and thought the best way to enforce a standard is to write the software that everybody uses, or something like that |
| 07:01.36 | levi | findlay: The trick is to get everyone to use your software. |
| 07:01.56 | *** join/#utah TheDiff_ (n=TheDiff@adsl-63-196-195-217.dsl.snlo01.pacbell.net) |
| 07:02.12 | levi | Apparently Globe provides some nifty caching mechanisms, anonymity, and other benefits. |
| 07:02.24 | findlay | sounds interesting, yet for the forseeable future probably the only major switch in internet infrastructure will be ipv6, political posturing over DNS regardless |
| 07:02.41 | levi | I think it sounds really cool, but not likely to be widely adopted. |
| 07:02.51 | findlay | levi: yeah |
| 07:04.08 | levi | For two main reasons; HTTP and DNS are thoroughly entrenched in the spot it would occupy, and for whatever reasons, CORBA/DCOM models are out of favor right now. |
| 07:04.44 | findlay | although internet communication has been long ago commoditized with incalculable technology built upon it, and even though it works famously well even if tier 1 ISPs have tantrums, it is nevertheless not good to cease looking for new ideas |
| 07:06.00 | levi | My primary objection to the concept earlier was that I thought mheath was dreaming it up due to a misunderstanding of his introductory descripton of it. |
| 07:06.53 | findlay | UNIX environments are strongly text based (the internet too by association?), it would be hard to switch to CORBA, I think |
| 07:07.37 | levi | Well, it's not CORBA, it's just CORBA-like. But the same reasoning holds. |
| 07:15.12 | levi | Anyway, both distributed processing and parallel processing will become increasingly important. |
| 07:19.44 | levi | Parallel/concurrent programming because computers will get faster due to increased number of processing units rather than higher clock speeds, and distributed programming because of ubiquitous high-speed, high-bandwidth networking. |
| 07:24.10 | levi | CORBA/DCOM/RMI models are built on our currently most popular model of computing, the shared-state concurrent model. It also happens to be the most difficult to reason about. |
| 07:26.19 | levi | Actually, scratch that last statement. |
| 07:26.44 | levi | The one about them being built on the shared-state concurrent model. |
| 07:32.26 | levi | Most software that attempts to take advantage of concurrency is built on that model, though. |
| 07:37.37 | levi | In any case, CORBA/DCOM/RMI all have a lot of complexity, but they work well in the ideal case. Unfortunately, they don't all handle non-ideal conditions very well. |
| 07:38.49 | findlay | that's why you have multi paradigm languages C++, perl, OCAML, etc. |
| 07:40.23 | levi | Well, CORBA/DCOM/RMI are all language-agnostic to some degree. |
| 07:43.59 | levi | Which is part of what makes them difficult. |
| 07:44.54 | levi | Building a distributed system with Erlang, though it restricts the programming paradigm, eliminates a lot of hairy issues. |
| 07:48.06 | levi | Anyway, time to sleep. |
| 08:52.53 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@c-67-169-244-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 11:50.24 | *** join/#utah bzob_l (n=bzob_l@office-nat.singleedge.com) |
| 12:57.27 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@64-205-130-223.client.dsl.net) |
| 13:33.26 | *** join/#utah bonez41 (n=aint@c-67-166-77-14.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 13:38.31 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 13:38.42 | *** part/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 13:47.40 | graphyx | Good Morning, Utah! |
| 13:53.04 | bonez41 | graphyx, howdy...! |
| 14:27.40 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 14:38.35 | *** join/#utah Goshen (n=Goshen@67-40-107-29.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 14:44.38 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@66.239.25.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 14:57.07 | levi | Hmm, Netflix class action settlement. |
| 14:57.21 | graphyx | really? |
| 14:57.22 | graphyx | wow.. |
| 14:58.19 | levi | I can get a free one-month service upgrade. |
| 14:58.32 | levi | I'm not crazy about one-month deals. |
| 14:58.49 | hans | what'sthesuit about? |
| 14:58.49 | levi | I can never remember to send my DVDs back. |
| 15:00.12 | levi | Oh, some guy complained that he didn't really get the guaranteed one-day delivery and unlimited rentals. Netflix denies any wrongdoing or liability, but has agreed to this settlement. |
| 15:03.00 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@204.14.21.69) |
| 15:21.38 | *** join/#utah osynic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 15:26.19 | goozbach | good morning |
| 15:30.22 | hans | heh. this is pretty bold |
| 15:30.23 | hans | Today marks the occasion of the release of Gorm 1.0, the Interface Builder for the GNUstep project, and with its release, comes the obsolesence of the GNOME and KDE projects. |
| 15:30.24 | levi | Morning. |
| 15:30.37 | levi | hans: Hah. |
| 15:30.58 | levi | hans: It's good to hear that GNUstep is still moving forward, though. |
| 15:32.15 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wade@207.135.130.2) |
| 15:32.19 | levi | Pondering the reasons it's not a viable HTTP replacement, that is. |
| 15:33.44 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 15:34.53 | tensai | levi: there's quite a few, so don't get lost |
| 15:35.59 | tensai | well, if that's not proof that spammers are using botnets I don't know what is |
| 15:36.11 | goozbach | it's a good thing I don't use KDE or Gnome |
| 15:36.25 | levi | Well, the thing is, there's a part of me that thinks it's a really cool idea. |
| 15:37.10 | mheath | :-) |
| 15:37.17 | tensai | within the space of 60 seconds I got 4 connections trying to route mail to the same non-existent address. the forged senders all look the same. |
| 15:37.40 | tensai | but the connections came from addresses across the world |
| 15:38.00 | levi | mheath: I am convinced it's never going to take off, though, and that we're probably better-off for it. |
| 15:38.46 | levi | mheath: By the way, does your admiration for Globe change your opinion of object oriented design? |
| 15:39.22 | mheath | levi: I never said that object oriented programming was bad; if you remember, the issue that you keep brining up was me saying that it makes new programmers dumb. |
| 15:42.51 | levi | mheath: Heh. Well, your approach to discussing it certainly /suggested/ that you thought object oriented programming was bad. If you didn't really mean to suggest that, well, I guess that answers my question. |
| 15:44.38 | mheath | levi: ...That was the issue you kept bringing up. And, if you remember, in the original discussion I was referencing people learning how to program in VB and Java in my computer science classes. |
| 15:46.28 | goozbach | an "Intro to programming" course should NOT be VB! |
| 15:48.27 | levi | mheath: I don't have enough interest in this to dig through logs to explain why I thought what I did, but rest assured that you gave me reason to. I still think you're wrong about OO design making beginning programmers lazy, but I don't have any interest in arguing that anymore. |
| 15:48.38 | levi | Anyway, back to Globe. |
| 15:50.07 | levi | I've been reading a bit of commentary about how similar things (CORBA, DCOM, Web Services/SOAP) have been faring, and what sort of issues they've got. Also, the reasons HTTP has been successful. |
| 15:51.13 | mheath | levi: note that this isn't a replacement for HTTP; it is an abstraction layer for all of TCP/IP. |
| 15:51.29 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:51.35 | *** part/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:51.36 | levi | mheath: I've read the introduction paper to Globe, so I'm well aware of what it is. |
| 15:52.38 | levi | mheath: One of its proposed functions would be to replace HTTP for delivery of HTML content. |
| 15:53.00 | mheath | Indeed. |
| 15:53.21 | levi | Well then. |
| 15:54.30 | mheath | getObjectByID("google").www.getPage("Mozilla/5.0", "/"); |
| 15:54.31 | levi | Ironically, although Globe is very object-oriented, it's a principle of object-oriented design that makes it very unattractive for the sorts of things that HTTP is actually very good at. |
| 15:54.58 | mheath | levi: like what? |
| 15:55.02 | levi | And that is the principle of loose coupling. |
| 15:56.01 | RyanE | mheath: for one thing, embedded devices. http is *very* easy to do on small micros. large-stack replacement of http would not work nearly as well on embedded devices. |
| 15:56.24 | levi | CORBA, DCOM, Java RMI, and SOAP all try to do essentially the same thing, but they all create tightly-coupled designs. |
| 15:57.07 | levi | In order to get any information from a remote server, an application must have a great deal of both syntactic and semantic knowledge about the remote server's services. |
| 15:57.56 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:59.38 | levi | RyanE: I agree with that, but given the complexity of TCP/IP stacks, it's not unreasonable to assume that, given a critical mass for a particular distributed object protocol, it could become a fundamental network stack implementation that's widely available as well. It is certainly a barrier to adoption, though! |
| 16:02.59 | RyanE | levi: I always look at things from the hardware-level up, but your arguments against coupling in this case seem relevant. |
| 16:03.08 | levi | HTTP was successful because of its simple semantics. There's a very small set of verbs in the protocol language, and it's always the same for every server. Furthermore, it meshes very well with HTML without being tightly coupled with it. And HTML can be easily hacked by a novice, making adoption of the system easy. |
| 16:03.55 | RyanE | and traditionally, web browsers have been very accepting of poor grammar. |
| 16:04.54 | levi | Right, and that was a great boon to adoption of HTML/HTTP versus competing technologies like Gopher. |
| 16:06.06 | RyanE | Definitely. It's still key to adoption by, say, my wife. She would never blog if one error would just make it 'not work'. |
| 16:06.12 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce_@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 16:06.12 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 16:08.39 | levi | Anyway, if you have a http address for a resource, that's all you need to retrieve it. If you have an object's identifier, you know how to send messages to it, but you don't know /what/ messages to send, how to format those messages, etc. Instead of a universal API, every resource can define its own API. |
| 16:09.45 | RyanE | which isn't that different for some of the *other* protocols that mheath was saying could be wrapped... IM, etc. Each of them have their own protocol that must be followed. |
| 16:09.56 | levi | Right. |
| 16:10.22 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:11.02 | levi | Anyway, the coupling problem could be overcome if Globe became a standard internet infrastructure element simply by defining well-known APIs. |
| 16:12.42 | levi | You can't just snap your fingers and make that happen, though, and all the money in distributed objects is currently on Web Service garbage. |
| 16:13.22 | sjansen | Forbes is really an amazing magazine some times. There cover story for the latest issue? "Attack of the Blogs" |
| 16:13.51 | sjansen | Apparently blogs destroy brand and reputations and make small children cry. |
| 16:14.17 | RyanE | heh. Only stupid brands. |
| 16:14.38 | levi | From my vantage point, the future of the web is REST, not distributed objects. Distributed objects will live on, but they will remain balkanized for the near future, and be used /within/ specific applications rather than a means of interaction between applications, due to the coupling problem. |
| 16:17.29 | levi | In my own experience, designing an interaction mechanism around a small set of verbs makes for a /much/ more flexible and extensible interaction model. |
| 16:18.02 | levi | And that's all I have to say on it for now. |
| 16:18.10 | levi | I guess mheath went away. |
| 16:27.00 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:28.37 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@dhcp35.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 16:32.36 | *** join/#utah synic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 16:35.45 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 16:40.36 | sjansen | wow, the new FreeBSD is ugly |
| 16:41.28 | levi | sjansen: How so? |
| 16:42.44 | sjansen | it tries to do too much, tries to be true the the *bsd heritage, tries to be less controversial by getting rid of the devil, tries to be modern and flashy while at the same time being simple |
| 16:43.10 | sjansen | I don't see what was wrong with the old logo. It was cool. |
| 16:43.30 | sjansen | http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/result/ |
| 16:43.43 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 16:43.43 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 16:55.41 | *** join/#utah maquis (n=maquis@joanna.zmonkey.org) |
| 17:03.44 | Bradipo | sjansen: Agreed, I see nothing wrong with the old logo. |
| 17:04.15 | Bradipo | But the new one is definitely modern looking. |
| 17:05.25 | TimRiker | Mecworks: word? I hear things are happening at work today. |
| 17:15.24 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:15.35 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@64.0.192.29) |
| 17:21.48 | sjansen | http://static.flickr.com/27/44771294_a03aca8311_b_d.jpg |
| 17:26.28 | *** join/#utah bzob (n=bzobrist@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 17:31.57 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 17:34.01 | levi | What's that app that lets you share a single mouse/keyboard across multiple X, Mac, and Windows desktops? |
| 17:35.07 | levi | Ahh, Synergy. |
| 17:37.56 | *** join/#utah tensai (n=tensai@207.141.37.66) |
| 17:38.53 | *** join/#utah markl__ (i=mark@dsl093-225-127.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 17:40.02 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (i=bradipo@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 17:43.55 | levi | Man, I want one of those huge video panels. |
| 17:48.26 | tensai | ~seen maquis |
| 17:48.34 | ibot | maquis <n=maquis@joanna.zmonkey.org> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 11h 43m 58s ago, saying: 'mheath: so what are you doing?'. |
| 17:50.46 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@c-67-169-253-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:53.05 | levi | Hmmm. |
| 17:53.56 | tensai | sjansen: she was having issues getting a stable connection, so I offered her one |
| 17:54.06 | tensai | now my connection is hosed and she can't get online :) |
| 17:54.37 | sjansen | suuuuuuuuure... admit it, you bumped maquis off months ago and have been impersonating her ever since |
| 17:54.51 | Jayce^ | tensai in drag..... |
| 18:00.43 | *** join/#utah Maquis (n=erins@128.187.242.59) |
| 18:01.23 | Maquis | ~lart goozbach |
| 18:06.28 | *** join/#utah hans (i=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 18:11.03 | *** join/#utah Lanfear (n=delusive@18.80-203-218.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:11.12 | Lanfear | synic ! |
| 18:11.28 | Lanfear | god. all. utah. scary. shit.. |
| 18:13.07 | sjansen | ~language Lanfear |
| 18:13.09 | ibot | ACTION grabs Lanfear by the ear and washes Lanfear's mouth out with soap |
| 18:14.18 | Lanfear | ouch. :\ |
| 18:14.34 | Lanfear | Soap tastes funny. |
| 18:18.05 | Lanfear | Josh, wakey wakey rise and shine |
| 18:18.23 | Lanfear | ey! :D |
| 18:18.26 | stderr | What's up Lan. |
| 18:18.40 | Lanfear | Too much! I'm going insane. And you? |
| 18:18.41 | stderr | utah eh? hehe, I don't think they're ready for you. |
| 18:18.44 | Lanfear | lol |
| 18:18.47 | stderr | good, go to #urapug |
| 18:19.05 | *** part/#utah Lanfear (n=delusive@18.80-203-218.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:21.43 | goozbach | http://www.cenriqueortiz.com/weblog/General/?permalink=Developers-Top-10-replies-when-code-doesnt-work.html |
| 18:21.55 | Jayce^ | maybe Lanfear should change 'her' name to cyndane |
| 18:22.26 | hans | heh, it works but it hasn't been tested |
| 18:22.52 | hans | oh yeah, "Why do you want to do it that way?!" |
| 18:23.00 | Maquis | Jayce^: ??? |
| 18:23.18 | stderr | Jayce^: why the quotations around her? |
| 18:23.19 | sjansen | hans: ??? |
| 18:23.25 | Jayce^ | Maquis, guess you've never read WOT |
| 18:23.38 | hans | sjansen: from goozbach's url |
| 18:23.51 | Maquis | ~WOT |
| 18:23.53 | ibot | rumour has it, wot is it about? |
| 18:23.53 | emcnabb | there is a guy in my class from National Geographic |
| 18:23.54 | Jayce^ | stderr, because I don't know the the real person behind the nick is actually female, as the name suggests |
| 18:23.58 | emcnabb | that would be a cool place to work |
| 18:23.59 | Maquis | emcnabb: that rocks! |
| 18:24.08 | stderr | Jayce^: She is. A female. |
| 18:24.17 | Jayce^ | k, that part fits then |
| 18:24.41 | emcnabb | ~lart Jayce^ |
| 18:24.47 | emcnabb | sweet |
| 18:24.53 | Maquis | ~lart emcnabb for not being around last night |
| 18:25.01 | emcnabb | ? |
| 18:25.03 | hans | ~slashdot |
| 18:25.03 | sjansen | ~confuse Maquis |
| 18:25.05 | ibot | yes how are our bacon today ? |
| 18:25.24 | hans | ok, honda is charging the test-driving family $500/mo for that fuel-cell car |
| 18:25.34 | Jayce^ | ~boot emcnabb |
| 18:25.35 | ibot | ACTION says "boot to the head" to emcnabb and knocks him over |
| 18:25.49 | hans | because "if it were free they might not get the kind of feedback they want. If someone is paying for something and they're not happy - then you're going to hear about it." |
| 18:25.57 | stderr | Jayce^: have you read Knife of Dreams? |
| 18:26.01 | hans | well maybe, but $500/mo seems a bit excessive |
| 18:26.11 | Jayce^ | not yet, just finishing rereading the previous books.. |
| 18:26.23 | stderr | Jayce^: it's pretty good. |
| 18:26.25 | Jayce^ | was on track to do it in time, then had a big release |
| 18:26.32 | Jayce^ | it's sitting on my table at home :) |
| 18:26.58 | Jayce^ | halfway back into crossroads, so I'll get it soon |
| 18:27.10 | Maquis | religion classes should *not* have tests |
| 18:27.43 | stderr | Jayce^: cool. |
| 18:27.54 | levi | maquis: One of the many questionable quirks of BYU. Alas, you gotta live with it. |
| 18:28.02 | sjansen | you'd rather more of your credits came from hard science classes or some form of humanities? |
| 18:28.03 | Jayce^ | stderr, did he at least tie *something* up this time ? |
| 18:28.24 | Jayce^ | or will book 12 be required to be around 1k pages or more just finishing things up? |
| 18:28.42 | Maquis | sjansen: not necessarily not have credits... but not tests |
| 18:29.04 | sjansen | heh, so you want an even bigger gimmey? |
| 18:29.07 | stderr | Jayce^: yeah, so am I :D |
| 18:29.15 | stderr | Jayce^: not really, heh. |
| 18:29.30 | Jayce^ | great.. |
| 18:29.44 | Jayce^ | now we just know he's going to get hit by a @#$%^ bus and nobody will ever know the end |
| 18:30.02 | sjansen | the fact that BYU gives any credit for religion classes is usually a sticky point when going through the re-accreditation process |
| 18:30.03 | stderr | hehe. |
| 18:34.01 | levi | Those credits certainly don't transfer anywhere. |
| 18:38.43 | goozbach | # yum shell |
| 18:38.46 | goozbach | sweet! |
| 18:40.10 | hans | hmm, is it just me or is gnustep this nebulous vaporware that apparently exists but is inobtainable? |
| 18:40.50 | jsmith | goozbach: It doesn't have check-update! |
| 18:41.04 | jsmith | hans: Yes, it's coated in unobtanium |
| 18:41.07 | hans | me: "I want to run GNUstep". Websites: "well, um, you don't, uh, _run_ gnustep per se. Yeah, it just sort of _is_." |
| 18:41.28 | hans | give me apt-get install gnustep and an option in [gk]dm |
| 18:41.37 | hans | then I'll try it |
| 18:43.42 | *** join/#utah hans (i=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 18:45.55 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.181.35) |
| 18:45.56 | levi | hans: Apparently there is an 'apt-get installl gnustep' |
| 18:46.27 | hans | well, yes. but it's still not any sort of unified thing |
| 18:46.44 | goozbach | I'm just seeing windowmaker |
| 18:47.08 | hans | the website says something like "we don't have a window manager, but we recommend windowmaker. Oh and windowmaker isn't assoaciated with gnustep in case you thought we were intelligent." |
| 18:48.38 | levi | I don't know why a framework for desktop application development would need a window manager. |
| 18:48.49 | hans | no, it wouldn't |
| 18:49.01 | hans | but being a framework for desktop application development doesn't really do much for the users |
| 18:49.30 | hans | what good is it that some applications are developed with gnustep? It does nothing for the supposed goal of consistency |
| 18:50.04 | levi | Sure it does, if there are enough applications that you only need those developed with the framework. |
| 18:50.15 | hans | at least having a window manager and the existing gnustep applications bundled as something that the user can identify |
| 18:50.44 | findlay | if gnustep is just a framework for desktop application development and it is a clone of nextstep, then why is nextstep considered a fork of bsd? |
| 18:51.11 | levi | findlay: Both are true, but on different levels. |
| 18:52.20 | hans | look at os x - the window manager is separate, technically speaking, and there's lots of ways that aren't the cocoa way to write apps for os x (including X11), but when you think os x, there's os x. |
| 18:52.28 | hans | when you think gnustep it's this nebulous non-entity |
| 18:52.41 | hans | (from the user's perspective) |
| 18:53.11 | hans | (developers obviously can see that it's a framework, and maybe a neat framework at that) |
| 18:53.16 | findlay | hans: so you think there should be a WM developed with gnustep? |
| 18:53.22 | hans | not necessarily |
| 18:53.39 | hans | windowmaker would be a good choice. so package up windowmaker and a default menu with standard gnustep apps and there you go |
| 18:53.43 | hans | this is not difficult |
| 18:54.29 | levi | hans: GNUStep is saying they're currently not defining a desktop environment. There are desktop environments that are built on GNUStep, and /do/ define things like a window manager. |
| 18:55.14 | sjansen | ~erase gnustep |
| 18:55.28 | Maquis | ~erase sjansen |
| 18:57.07 | hans | just obviously a by geeks for geeks situation |
| 18:57.07 | hans | and there are projects doing that, btw |
| 18:57.07 | hans | even linked to from the gnustep homepage. but it's bad marketing |
| 18:58.22 | levi | Yeah, I saw the links. |
| 18:58.31 | sjansen | gnustep is a bad idea at this point, it wastes good developers on a dead-end project |
| 18:59.00 | tensai | Maquis: upgrade went south. I hope to have it fixed /sometime/ today. sorry! |
| 18:59.15 | *** join/#utah hans (i=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 18:59.38 | findlay | gorm? |
| 18:59.59 | levi | sjansen: I don't think it's right to characterize open source projects like that. |
| 19:00.15 | hans | what'd I miss? :) |
| 19:00.36 | findlay | nothing at all |
| 19:00.41 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (n=sjk36@fruits.cs.byu.edu) |
| 19:00.43 | levi | hans: sjansen said gnustep was a bad idea because it wastes good developers on a dead-end project. |
| 19:01.23 | hans | oh, it's not a dead-end project. It's very usable now. As a framework |
| 19:02.10 | levi | It's usable as a framework, but I don't think it's at the point where marketing it as a desktop would do a lot of good. |
| 19:02.28 | hans | as I read their website more I'm beginning to think maybe they've never claimed to be more than a framework and they've been victimized by well-intentioned outside propagandists |
| 19:02.41 | levi | hans: I think that's quite true. |
| 19:03.17 | hans | i'd love something less of a memory hog than thunderbird |
| 19:03.23 | hans | and less stupid than mail.app |
| 19:03.32 | hans | and that I could use on linux too for consistency |
| 19:03.33 | levi | The whole point was so that developers could use the way cool tools they had experienced on NeXT boxes to develop stuff. |
| 19:03.36 | findlay | hans: mutt? |
| 19:03.46 | hans | findlay: yeah, but mutt is less than optimal for IMAP |
| 19:03.58 | sjansen | levi: so creating yet another RSS reader is okay as long as it's open source? |
| 19:04.00 | hans | I tried to convince myself that mutt IMAP worked well for awhile |
| 19:04.02 | hans | but it didn't work. |
| 19:04.24 | hans | sjansen: until someone gets it right, there must be more RSS readers created |
| 19:04.40 | findlay | levi: http://www.gnustep.org/experience/Gorm.html |
| 19:04.41 | levi | sjansen: I don't care if it's open source or not. If someone wants to create an RSS reader, good for them. |
| 19:05.11 | levi | sjansen: It will hopefully make them a better programmer, and spark some idea for a more interesting project in the future. |
| 19:06.48 | hans | I think it's a waste of good students to have to write papers |
| 19:06.59 | hans | especially papers on subjects that have already been treated well. |
| 19:07.22 | hans | and that's not even getting to math homework. |
| 19:08.16 | levi | sjansen: The fact that the world is clogged with simple but non-trivial apps that do the same thing should be no discouragement for new programmers attempting the same thing as a learning exercise, if no more creative idea comes to mind. I would prefer, however, that they keep them to themselves. |
| 19:08.45 | levi | sjansen: Also, I don't think GNUStep compares with anything that currently exists in open source software like one RSS reader compares with another. |
| 19:09.16 | sjansen | So how is that an argument that working on gnustep instead folding its best features into more widely used frameworks is a good use of resources? |
| 19:09.20 | findlay | "There is an opportunity for the open source community to create a VB compatible IDE that could compile applications for both to Windows and Linux." |
| 19:09.25 | findlay | haha |
| 19:10.03 | hans | sjansen: like folding the best features of a hummer into a honda civic? |
| 19:10.21 | hans | or a dodge truck's best features into a miata? |
| 19:10.39 | levi | sjansen: That's a mischaracterization of my argument. I'm arguing that your premise, that programming is always a 'resource' that should always be optimized towards creating the software you personally find useful, is false. |
| 19:10.47 | hans | certainly there's a lot of waste of mechanical engineers in the auto inductry |
| 19:10.51 | jsmith | hans: I'd love to have the leg-room of a Dodge truck in a miata |
| 19:11.17 | levi | jsmith: Not in my Miata! I like it to feel snug. |
| 19:11.35 | hans | i'd love to have the headroom of a vw beetle in just about any car out there |
| 19:11.56 | hans | people always get concerned over whether I have enough room when I get in their car. usually it's not the legs but the headroom that's tight |
| 19:11.56 | jsmith | levi: Fine... keep your miata, and I'll go build myself a stretch Mini Cooper |
| 19:12.34 | levi | Time for lunch. |
| 19:14.01 | hans | ~cook levi |
| 19:14.02 | ibot | ACTION throws levi in a big pan with veggies inside and cooks levi on 350 for an hour |
| 19:15.07 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 19:15.14 | hans | there he is |
| 19:17.39 | Newsome | talking about me again? |
| 19:19.42 | hans | we (ok, me) were wondering if anything interesting has happened recently in the SCO case |
| 19:19.47 | findlay | this guy is trying to make an argument that installing software is worse than windows since although windows doesn't have a standard installer, on linux you have to unzip, untar, and sometimes make programs. Horrible! |
| 19:20.37 | findlay | package management is one area where several distros have windows hoplessly beat |
| 19:21.26 | Maquis | findlay: freebsd has *nice* package management |
| 19:24.22 | tensai | package management is one area where windows is the bottom of the barrel |
| 19:25.04 | hans | oh I dunno, there is RPM.... |
| 19:25.37 | findlay | rpm+yum is getting lots bette |
| 19:25.41 | findlay | r |
| 19:26.04 | tensai | yum isn't appetizing to me |
| 19:26.23 | tensai | I read a description of how MSI works yesterday and it's just disgusting |
| 19:27.35 | findlay | have you used yum on fc4? |
| 19:27.36 | Newsome | hans: "interesting" is very relative. SCO claims to have filed a list of 217 "infringements", but they appear to just be the same old things (all of JFS, etc.) |
| 19:28.17 | Maquis | Newsome: i'm guessing you don't know any more than the news places on what those 217 are? |
| 19:28.51 | tensai | it would be much more fitting if they filed 419 of them |
| 19:29.32 | Newsome | Probably not. I have my suspicions, but they keep switching their story too fast. |
| 19:29.47 | Maquis | tensai: nice |
| 19:30.39 | Maquis | Newsome: did they provide any explanation for why it's taken them so long to come up with these things? |
| 19:31.08 | Maquis | i mean... it's not like they've been trying to get hold of the linux code |
| 19:31.12 | Newsome | wow, it's been almost 2 full years since I first pulled apart the list they made public - http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031119041719640 |
| 19:31.31 | Newsome | yeah, well, they keep claiming that IBM is withholding "non-public" Linux contributions. |
| 19:32.12 | Maquis | it's got to be expensive for them to procrastinate releasing this information |
| 19:32.22 | Maquis | so, i doubt that they had it and just aren't disclosing it |
| 19:32.43 | Maquis | Newsome: what kind of non-public linux contributions could IBM be withholding? |
| 19:33.11 | Newsome | you know...all those Linux contributions that nobody knows about :) |
| 19:33.18 | Maquis | the ones that aren't in linux? |
| 19:33.23 | findlay | haha, this guy says that vista is just theft of gnustep |
| 19:33.31 | findlay | http://insidethedotnet.blogspot.com/2005/11/avalon-interface-constructor-powered.html |
| 19:33.32 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:34.27 | Newsome | Maquis: your guess is as good as mine |
| 19:38.34 | Maquis | Newsome: my guess is that they're desperate |
| 19:39.12 | Maquis | they're trying to pretend they have a case, when they know quite well that they don't |
| 19:39.13 | Newsome | my guess is that they're lying sacks of elephant dung |
| 19:39.26 | Maquis | maybe they'll be belly-up by the time that a decision is made, and they won't have to pay IBM |
| 19:39.50 | Maquis | then, IBM will have lost money due to the case, and won't be getting anything back? |
| 19:40.12 | Maquis | or maybe they are hoping that it'll get to the point where it's more expensive for IBM to fight than to just give SCO what they want |
| 19:41.03 | Maquis | "Why does SCO believe that this list contains their trade secrets if they don't know the trade secrets and need IBM to point them out?" |
| 19:41.06 | Maquis | :) |
| 19:42.07 | Newsome | there's that, and the fact that nearly 2 years ago, the Head Liar's brother, Kevin McBride, acknowledged in open court that SCO _had_ no trade secrets. |
| 19:44.24 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 20:00.17 | *** join/#utah miagyrt (n=uusernam@tor/session/x-7f02d378a386b45c) |
| 20:00.48 | *** part/#utah miagyrt (n=uusernam@tor/session/x-7f02d378a386b45c) |
| 20:11.34 | levi | Hmmm. So, www.live.com. Microsoft really outdid themselves this time. |
| 20:13.51 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 20:21.25 | *** join/#utah ECS (n=ecs@byu292736wks.byu.edu) |
| 20:30.16 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 20:31.03 | tensai | 30,000 calorie sandwich. http://www.sitepalace.com/derian/ |
| 20:31.51 | tensai | I'm a little doubtful on his calculations of calories from oil, but still |
| 20:33.26 | JoshH | that thing looks good and disgusting simultaneously |
| 20:33.52 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (n=jstay@166.70.183.108) |
| 20:43.58 | tensai | yeah, he's way off on the oil. 154 T of oil is .6 gallons. There's no way over half a gallon of oil is on that sandwich. |
| 20:44.31 | tensai | unless he chugged the left overs from the deep fryer |
| 20:45.36 | stderr | yeah, but it's gotta be pretty hard to estimate how many calories are added to a meal by deep frying it. |
| 20:46.29 | Jayce^ | well, if you take an accurate measurement of the oil before and after (at the same temp) you get a vague amount, but then it's thrown off by the things leeched/dropped from the food into the oil |
| 20:46.35 | tensai | strain the deep fryer and compare how much is left. messy, but shouldn't be too hard. |
| 20:47.25 | tensai | deep frying really doesn't add *that* much oil to food. alton brown did just what Jayce^ describes on one of his shows. don't recall the numbers off hand though. |
| 20:47.50 | Jayce^ | tensai, unless you are cooking incorrectly (cooler oil, etc).. that will cause it to soak.. |
| 20:48.11 | Jayce^ | but even frying something with a heavy batter, which soaks up some, if you do it at the correct temp it won't get hardly any |
| 20:48.26 | tensai | Jayce^: wait, I'm supposed to heat up the oil? |
| 20:48.28 | Uncle_Jesse | Jayce^: haven't seen you in here in awhile |
| 20:49.13 | Uncle_Jesse | ah - I just started at my company so still have a bit of free time |
| 20:49.25 | Uncle_Jesse | I know it will definitely be that way though |
| 20:49.54 | *** join/#utah macnewbold (n=mac@69.2.248.251) |
| 20:50.09 | macnewbold | anyone here use folding in an [x]emacs editor? |
| 20:52.32 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 20:53.14 | Uncle_Jesse | http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?sourceid=qIq2Q2knEwByAnCSxjRP&siteid=0040932038&CMP=AFC-AFFIL&Sku=C250-1158&EdpNo=1104137&SRCCODE=BEFREE - free bluetooth |
| 20:53.30 | Uncle_Jesse | sorry about the long url |
| 20:53.59 | tensai | ~lart mail-in rebates |
| 20:54.26 | levi | That would be cool, if I also got a free Bluetooth device to use it with. |
| 20:54.36 | jsmith | Certified Mail Return Receipt Requested -- sheesh. |
| 20:54.44 | jsmith | There goes half your rebate right there... |
| 20:54.49 | Uncle_Jesse | I've been looking for a good bluetooth dongle I can use my cell phone headseat with (aka Skype) |
| 20:55.00 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 20:55.05 | Uncle_Jesse | jsmith: oooh - good find |
| 20:55.13 | Uncle_Jesse | makes it not as worth it |
| 20:55.19 | jsmith | Exactly... |
| 20:55.34 | jsmith | Uncle_Jesse: Still probably worth it though, considering. |
| 20:55.35 | Uncle_Jesse | so much for that |
| 20:55.51 | Uncle_Jesse | yeah - it's still a decent price even after you pay for certified mail and shipping |
| 20:56.06 | jsmith | Uncle_Jesse: Yeah, it is. |
| 20:56.06 | Uncle_Jesse | anyone know if it works in linux? |
| 20:57.07 | jsmith | I'd give it a 90% chance of working... almost all BT dongles use the same chipset. |
| 20:57.42 | Uncle_Jesse | that would be very useful with Skype or Google talk |
| 20:57.49 | jsmith | Go for it! |
| 20:58.00 | Uncle_Jesse | except I don't think google talk voice works in linux yet :-) |
| 20:58.15 | jsmith | Uncle_Jesse: Yeah... now I just need a good stereo bt headset :-) |
| 20:59.47 | *** join/#utah flyboy^ (n=flyboy@ded1005.west-datacenter.net) |
| 20:59.52 | Uncle_Jesse | jsmith: yeah - don't know if I've heard of one in stereo |
| 21:00.24 | jsmith | Uncle_Jesse: They build them, they're just harder to find. |
| 21:01.54 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=decripto@sshaw.ftth.xmission.com) |
| 21:04.19 | Jayce^ | jsmith, should have been at the gumstix presentation then |
| 21:04.25 | Jayce^ | brad talked a bit about stuff like that |
| 21:04.28 | Uncle_Jesse | jsmith: that would be cool, especially if you use it with some of those RCA bluetooth phones |
| 21:05.28 | *** part/#utah macnewbold (n=mac@69.2.248.251) |
| 21:05.50 | jsmith | Jayce^: Was this the one at SLLUG, or the one at PLUG? |
| 21:07.31 | Jayce^ | the plug one, but he did both IIRC |
| 21:11.18 | jsmith | Yeah, I went to the SLLUG one. |
| 21:11.48 | jsmith | Jayce^: Speaking of PLUG though, I did get a couple of copies of my O'Reilly book to give away at PLUG. |
| 21:15.32 | *** join/#utah hagna (n=me@67.50.46.118) |
| 21:15.37 | hagna | goozbach: hey you are in openacs |
| 21:16.01 | Jayce^ | ahh, cool |
| 21:16.07 | Jayce^ | no wonder they didn't send me one :) |
| 21:16.33 | jsmith | Jayce^: I don't know if I'll be to the next meeting, so maybe I ought to get them to you somehow. |
| 21:16.43 | Jayce^ | k |
| 21:16.52 | jsmith | sjansen: Quick, stop the country music and play it in reverse! |
| 21:17.26 | jsmith | sjansen: Your girl will come back, your dog will come back, and the tears will come back out of your (root)beer. |
| 21:20.58 | levi | Oh my goodness. |
| 21:21.06 | levi | I just discovered M-x zone in emacs. |
| 21:23.56 | sjansen | ~steal emacs' M-x zone from levi |
| 21:23.57 | ibot | ACTION grabs emacs' M-x zone from levi and gives it to sjansen |
| 21:24.19 | levi | If you try it, make sure there's text in the buffer first. |
| 21:27.49 | sjansen | Oh I'm not going to try it. I'm going to bury it deep in the ground so no one can ever use it again. |
| 21:28.13 | sjansen | Or maybe I'll patent it and demand a huge ransom before giving it back. |
| 21:30.24 | tensai | sjansen: don't forget the lawsuits |
| 21:44.54 | *** join/#utah nobell (n=jdegraff@70.103.228.158) |
| 21:54.15 | hagna | anyone know how to create a dom from a string in javascript? |
| 22:01.38 | *** part/#utah ECS (n=ecs@byu292736wks.byu.edu) |
| 22:06.55 | *** join/#utah phinux (n=phinux@iocane.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:10.39 | levi | What's up with PLUG? No emails today, and only one yesterday. |
| 22:10.57 | levi | Slackers! I want to be entertained! |
| 22:14.47 | tensai | ~dance |
| 22:14.48 | ibot | ACTION becomes steve ballmer |
| 22:20.36 | Uncle_Jesse | dude - these laptop-mode-tools are sweet! |
| 22:25.55 | goozbach | hagna: yup, I'm supposedly the "official package mantainer" |
| 22:26.10 | goozbach | i just need to get off my duff and get some packages done |
| 22:29.17 | hagna | goozbach: cool I've been using aolserver for a while |
| 22:29.24 | hagna | goozbach: but never openacs |
| 22:29.25 | hagna | hehe |
| 22:32.26 | Uncle_Jesse | So is there such an acronym as OMH (Oh my Heck) in Utah? |
| 22:32.40 | hagna | OMH yes IMHO |
| 22:32.50 | hagna | IANAL though |
| 22:34.57 | Uncle_Jesse | LOL |
| 22:35.03 | Uncle_Jesse | ROTFL |
| 22:35.15 | Uncle_Jesse | OMHROTFL |
| 22:35.25 | hagna | heck yeah |
| 22:35.42 | Uncle_Jesse | OMHROTFLOL |
| 22:36.08 | hagna | OMHOL |
| 22:36.55 | Uncle_Jesse | OMHROTFLOLIMHO |
| 22:37.14 | hans | OMHG2GOL |
| 22:38.05 | hans | levi: you're not the first to notice. we have 40 requests in the queue |
| 22:38.08 | hans | mailq |
| 22:38.09 | hagna | OMHIANALG2GROTFLOL |
| 22:38.17 | hans | not sure why they're not going out |
| 22:39.03 | hans | (well, not all 40 are legit emails, but some are) |
| 22:40.37 | Uncle_Jesse | OMHIANALG2GRTFMROTFLOL |
| 22:45.24 | vontrapp | can OSX use ttf fonts? |
| 22:49.28 | Uncle_Jesse | vontrapp: I thought so - I think I've used them before, but my ibook died so I can't tell you for sure |
| 22:52.16 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 22:53.24 | *** join/#utah markl__ (i=mark@dsl093-225-127.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:53.32 | *** join/#utah markl__ (i=mark@dsl093-225-127.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:55.11 | Tene | http://unhappyparakeet.rr.nu/ |
| 22:55.14 | Tene | Anyone know what that is? |
| 22:55.53 | tensai | URL |
| 22:56.22 | Tene | heh |
| 22:56.48 | mheath | What kind of cabling is coming out of it? |
| 22:57.52 | jsmith | Tene: Well, that fact that it has a Ringer Equivalence number suggests that it plugs into a phone line :-) |
| 22:58.03 | jsmith | Tene: Best guess -- some type of teletype machine? |
| 22:58.48 | vontrapp | that's what i was about to say |
| 22:58.51 | mheath | I'll ask my dad....he's rather familiar with computer equipment from that era. |
| 22:58.57 | Uncle_Jesse | It's a Janus II |
| 23:01.04 | jsmith | Tene: In 1985, Mr. Sund joined Network Control Corporation as Vice President, Sales & Marketing, a start-up company that designed and manufactured a private line network testing devise. |
| 23:01.10 | tensai | Tene: http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/en/6400cons.html |
| 23:01.22 | tensai | http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/en/6400pps.html |
| 23:03.18 | jsmith | Tene: Some type of private phone line testing device :-) |
| 23:03.31 | mheath | jsmith: nah |
| 23:03.37 | mheath | its for telco testing |
| 23:03.48 | hans | isn't that what he said? |
| 23:04.03 | mheath | I see Janus II referenced in a patent for a trunk identification system |
| 23:04.19 | mheath | its a "near-end test set" |
| 23:04.46 | jsmith | Figures, since it's mostly just a telephone keypad, and has a Ringer Equivalence number. |
| 23:04.55 | mheath | hans: no, he said its a private phone line desing device |
| 23:05.01 | mheath | This is for big trunk stuff |
| 23:05.17 | mheath | definately not private phone line testign |
| 23:06.34 | jsmith | Private lines were often trunks :-) |
| 23:06.59 | *** join/#utah SpecialZ (n=Scott@128.187.156.175) |
| 23:07.18 | tensai | jsmith: would a REN of 0 mean it's not able to answer a line? |
| 23:07.58 | mheath | http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4467148.html <--I believe that's our Janus II |
| 23:08.01 | mheath | Not sure, though |
| 23:08.08 | jsmith | tensai: I'm not sure. If I remember correctly, it means that it doesn't take any voltage to make it ring... |
| 23:08.37 | hans | I think that it means it doesn't take voltage |
| 23:08.45 | hans | which I think implies that it doesn't ring |
| 23:08.52 | hans | unless I've got my electronics wrong |
| 23:09.01 | hans | (ringing voltage) |
| 23:09.02 | tensai | jsmith: so it may just draw its voltage from another source |
| 23:09.08 | mheath | Ah, yes it is |
| 23:09.19 | mheath | If you look at the pictures associated with that patent, you see that thing |
| 23:09.24 | hans | well it probably draws voltage for operation |
| 23:09.28 | hans | but not as a ringing device |
| 23:09.33 | hans | two different circuits I believ |
| 23:10.19 | RyanE | and Z80 assembler code that it runs on. cool. |
| 23:10.39 | mheath | Well, there you go, Tene |
| 23:10.54 | mheath | Next time you want to test a very large, outdated PBX system.. |
| 23:11.18 | mheath | That has probably-now-unobtainable equipment listening on the other end... |
| 23:11.24 | mheath | You can use that. |
| 23:11.49 | tensai | mheath: I |
| 23:12.00 | tensai | mheath: I'm impressed you found that |
| 23:13.08 | mheath | tensai: I just googled for Janus and the company name... |
| 23:13.12 | mheath | and found a related patent |
| 23:13.17 | mheath | that referenced the Janus |
| 23:13.24 | mheath | :) |
| 23:14.04 | mheath | so I did a serach with just the company name, within that patent site |
| 23:14.07 | mheath | and came up with that :) |
| 23:16.09 | mheath | Hahah |
| 23:16.35 | mheath | it appears that "Network Control Corporation" manufactuered the Janus I, the Janus II, and one other device, before it fell off the face of the planet |
| 23:18.00 | *** join/#utah Goshen (n=Goshen@67-40-107-29.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 23:19.56 | mheath | Yah! My program works :) |
| 23:29.58 | tensai | jsmith: you don't happen to know typical packets per second rate and packet size for a sip stream using G.729, do you? |
| 23:32.09 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:35.26 | jsmith | tensai: Uh, yeah... I could do the math... |
| 23:35.42 | tensai | I think I found it |
| 23:35.49 | jsmith | tensai: With or without overhead? |
| 23:36.11 | tensai | both, I guess |
| 23:36.25 | tensai | I'm trying to simulate traffic |
| 23:36.40 | tensai | cisco says it's got a 20ms sampling rate and 20 byte payload |
| 23:36.48 | tensai | which is 50 pps |
| 23:37.14 | jsmith | Yes. |
| 23:37.45 | tensai | plus 8 bytes of udp header, and 12 bytes of rtp |
| 23:37.46 | jsmith | With overhead, you're probably talking ~40kbps per call -- rough guess. |
| 23:40.20 | tensai | I'm surprised that the payload is so small. makes sense when you figure the sampling rate has to be so fast, but that's a lot of wasted bandwidth on packet headers |
| 23:42.27 | jsmith | tensai: Ding Ding Ding! You win a prize! |
| 23:42.40 | jsmith | tensai: Now you realize why I invented IAX trunking :-) |
| 23:42.57 | tensai | can iax only improve when it trunks multiple calls? |
| 23:43.25 | tensai | ie. it still wastes that much bandwidth on a single call |
| 23:43.33 | jsmith | Yes, multiple concurrent calls betwen points A and B. |
| 23:44.00 | jsmith | Basically, you can think of the voice payloads being "carpooled" into the same UDP header, IP header, etc. |
| 23:44.02 | tensai | I knew that was true, but I didn't realize the extent of it |
| 23:45.53 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 23:48.48 | *** part/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
