| 00:00.03 | SpecialZ | ~lart maquis |
| 00:00.08 | Hhhhh | Tene, why |
| 00:00.13 | Tene | well |
| 00:00.18 | Tene | I haven't tried breezy yet |
| 00:00.26 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (n=zaphod@c-24-2-80-89.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:00.43 | Tene | just seems nicer |
| 00:00.44 | SpecialZ | I have always had trouble getting this and that working in FC. |
| 00:00.47 | Tene | feels better but together |
| 00:00.54 | Tene | fc3 was... ungood... |
| 00:01.04 | Tene | like fc4 lots, though |
| 00:01.09 | Hhhhh | FC4 required me quite a bit of work before getting it to the point I wanted to |
| 00:01.34 | Hhhhh | after that I loved it, but I've become largely uninterested in dealing with Linux install quirks and stuff |
| 00:08.12 | SpecialZ | knock yourself out. Is that on the box which was too slow for gentoo? |
| 00:08.33 | mheath | SpecialZ: "too slow"? I don't have any boxes that are too slow for gentoo |
| 00:08.47 | mheath | Just some that would take longer than others to do a stage1 install |
| 00:09.33 | mheath | SpecialZ: this is going on my Pentium III |
| 00:10.07 | mheath | Which will be my web and e-mail server, as well as the public gateway to my cluster |
| 00:10.33 | mheath | argh...I need to use my dad's laptop to burn these CDs |
| 00:10.54 | mheath | and I asked him if I could bring it down here and wire it to my router, so the stuff I need to burn would transfer to it faster (than wireless) |
| 00:11.07 | mheath | He says no, then sits and rants about how I better not use it for too long |
| 00:11.36 | hans | over the past two weekends I probably wasted 4 hours of my life waiting for qt to compile various times (not including the i'll let it compile while I sleep/eat/etc. stints), so nobody can tell me "no box is too slow for gentoo" |
| 00:12.34 | hans | or any source-based approach |
| 00:16.16 | hans | that said i do prefer darwinports to fink so it's obviously not an ultimatum to me |
| 00:19.09 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wade@65.73.113.199) |
| 00:23.32 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog_u@shylonhunter.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:25.25 | graphyx | Good afternoon |
| 00:25.58 | RyanE | afternoon. or evening. |
| 00:27.03 | *** join/#utah kei_ (n=tlynson@kei.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:27.22 | goozbach | idlerpg++ |
| 00:27.30 | goozbach | here's my latest status: |
| 00:27.31 | goozbach | 18:21 <@OldleBot> goozbach learned Perl! This wondrous godsend has accelerated them 0 days, 01:41:20 towards level 45. |
| 00:27.34 | goozbach | 18:21 <@OldleBot> goozbach reaches next level in 0 days, 17:04:41. |
| 00:27.42 | goozbach | see Perl is worth it |
| 00:28.39 | kei_ | What do those stats relate to exactly? |
| 00:29.13 | graphyx | goozbach: That's hilarious. How nifty that one was incorporated and that you triggered it. |
| 00:29.29 | graphyx | goozbach: But does that mean you are of good or evil alignment? |
| 00:30.34 | kei_ | ~lart comcast |
| 00:30.50 | *** join/#utah ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@c-67-171-124-6.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:34.10 | *** part/#utah kei_ (n=tlynson@kei.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 01:22.11 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 01:32.49 | *** part/#utah Peregrine (n=lamontp@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
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| 01:35.59 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (n=zaphod@c-24-2-80-89.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:40.39 | graphyx | any idea how you can compile c# to run on linux? |
| 01:41.00 | graphyx | or have I just proved myself a fool? |
| 01:41.23 | maquis | graphyx: with mono you shouldn't even need to recompile |
| 01:41.29 | hans | graphyx: c# works in linux, see mono |
| 01:41.36 | hans | for some definition of C# |
| 01:42.23 | graphyx | Ok. |
| 01:42.34 | graphyx | I need to tweak some code for a security tool written in c# |
| 02:18.28 | *** join/#utah fishyfire (n=Fishyfir@158.91.203.5) |
| 02:57.58 | fishyfire | anyone around who can help with a perl/cgi question? |
| 02:59.17 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:59.27 | graphyx | fishyfire: Just ask. |
| 02:59.54 | goozbach | ask away |
| 02:59.54 | fishyfire | so i am trying to reference a variable from my html form in my cgi-script |
| 03:00.08 | fishyfire | and i'm not sure how to do it... |
| 03:00.23 | graphyx | You have to split up the query string into variables before you can use them in the script. |
| 03:00.30 | fishyfire | i have this line in my html <input type="hidden" name="formtype" value="returningclient" /> |
| 03:01.07 | graphyx | $commands = $ENV{'QUERY_STRING'}; |
| 03:01.07 | graphyx | @pairs = split(/&/, $commands); |
| 03:01.07 | graphyx | foreach $pair (@pairs) |
| 03:01.07 | graphyx | { |
| 03:01.07 | graphyx | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:01.07 | graphyx | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:01.08 | fishyfire | i guess i should include the fact that i don't know perl at all, and am kind of learning it as i dig into the code to make it do what i want to |
| 03:01.09 | graphyx | } |
| 03:01.32 | maquis | fishyfire: nice... learning as you go is a good reason to visit irc |
| 03:01.41 | graphyx | Then you can reference each item in the query string by calling $data{$name} |
| 03:02.11 | graphyx | I was worried that would be too many lines. |
| 03:02.13 | graphyx | Glad it wasn't. |
| 03:04.01 | fishyfire | okay, thanks |
| 03:04.11 | fishyfire | i had something kind of similar.... i'll try this and see what i get |
| 03:04.15 | graphyx | Make sense? |
| 03:04.31 | fishyfire | enough sense that i think i can get it to work.... |
| 03:04.35 | graphyx | k |
| 03:04.38 | fishyfire | if that makes sense |
| 03:04.47 | graphyx | yeah. |
| 03:06.46 | Newsome | bah: "Red Hat Network is currently unavailable for scheduled maintenance. The servers will be back online by no later than 3:00AM EDT (UTC-4) on Wednesday, Oct 12th." |
| 03:07.10 | fishyfire | hmm... i did something wrong |
| 03:07.13 | graphyx | That's not good. |
| 03:07.15 | goozbach | Newsome: ha ha |
| 03:07.30 | goozbach | Newsome: need something in particular? |
| 03:07.38 | graphyx | Ok folks, I'l headed home. |
| 03:07.43 | graphyx | Talk to you alls later. |
| 03:07.44 | maquis | graphyx: gnight |
| 03:07.54 | fishyfire | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:07.54 | fishyfire | @pairs = split(/&/, $commands); |
| 03:07.54 | fishyfire | foreach $pair (@pairs) |
| 03:07.54 | fishyfire | { |
| 03:07.54 | fishyfire | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:07.55 | fishyfire | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:07.57 | fishyfire | } |
| 03:07.59 | fishyfire | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:08.01 | fishyfire | so like that? |
| 03:08.06 | Newsome | goozbach: not really. Just wanted to check on some updates I told it to do the other day |
| 03:08.10 | fishyfire | is that what i need it should look like? |
| 03:08.11 | graphyx | fishyfire: Looks good |
| 03:08.21 | fishyfire | it still is giving me errors |
| 03:08.46 | graphyx | use CGI qw(:standard); |
| 03:08.48 | goozbach | Newsome: ahh ok |
| 03:08.53 | graphyx | Put that in the top of the file. |
| 03:09.08 | goozbach | cause I've got access to a couple proxy servers but that wouldn't do you any good |
| 03:09.25 | goozbach | I coulda snagged some packages for you |
| 03:09.29 | graphyx | fishyfire: But if you still can't get it to go. start with the basics. |
| 03:09.40 | graphyx | Try to print out the query string and see if you can get that at least. |
| 03:09.42 | graphyx | and then work from there. |
| 03:09.44 | graphyx | I have to go. |
| 03:09.48 | fishyfire | okay |
| 03:09.50 | graphyx | but others can certainly help you. |
| 03:09.52 | fishyfire | thanks for the help |
| 03:09.53 | graphyx | including #perl |
| 03:10.20 | fishyfire | i have use strict at the beginning |
| 03:10.26 | fishyfire | could that be part of the problem? |
| 03:10.36 | fishyfire | do i need that or should i get rid of it? |
| 03:10.45 | Newsome | I've got all my servers sharing an up2date directory, so I only have to download the headers or packages once. Saves a lot of time and bandwidth |
| 03:11.54 | goozbach | yeah, that's nice too |
| 03:11.59 | fishyfire | well i got rid of it and it worked |
| 03:12.07 | goozbach | RHN saved my hide a couple times now |
| 03:12.07 | fishyfire | or appeared to at least |
| 03:12.20 | goozbach | being able to schedule a reboot via a web-app is cool |
| 03:14.32 | Newsome | I like being able to tell a bunch of machines to all update some packages at the same time. |
| 03:14.43 | Newsome | much better than having to ssh into each one |
| 03:15.56 | goozbach | yeah |
| 03:16.21 | goozbach | I'm tossing around some ideas to create a RHN clone for all YUM enabled distros |
| 03:16.22 | Newsome | Although the RHN turnaround is pretty slow. |
| 03:16.35 | goozbach | not really, 4 hours by default |
| 03:16.42 | goozbach | at the most |
| 03:17.25 | roscivs | Ok. Imagine one of those foam wrist-rests (not the gel ones, the foam ones). Now imagine one that's about 6" x 8". Any idea where I could get something like this? |
| 03:18.24 | goozbach | roscivs: cut up a camp mat |
| 03:18.33 | fishyfire | or a little gardening kneeling pad? |
| 03:18.42 | roscivs | I'd prefer not to have to cut up anything ... I want something that looks at least somewhat professional. |
| 03:18.45 | goozbach | ohh yeat |
| 03:18.49 | goozbach | er yeah |
| 03:18.58 | scott_ | so is it legal to spam if you include a remove me from list dealy at the bottom of the email? |
| 03:19.10 | levi | Gah. Law and Order never fails to annoy me with their 'ripped from the headlines'. |
| 03:19.56 | goozbach | levi: yet you watch religiously... |
| 03:20.08 | scott_ | (not that I'm going to spam, I'm just wondering how these stupid companies that are utah based and traceable get away with it) |
| 03:20.14 | levi | goozbach: I don't. My wife watches it occasionally. |
| 03:21.55 | goozbach | it's cold tonight |
| 03:23.19 | roscivs | Hmmm. Mouse pads are about that size ... I wonder if I could find one that was 3/4"-1" thick? |
| 03:23.38 | maquis | scott_: are you a byu student (or were you recently)? |
| 03:24.25 | maquis | scott_: the reason i'm asking is that i get those occasionally, and i'm pretty sure that the way that they get my address is because BYU keeps their LDAP server wide open... |
| 03:24.42 | maquis | and people have been complaining about it for the past while, and they refuse to acknowledge that it's a problem |
| 03:25.12 | goozbach | http://www.43folders.com/2005/10/procrastination.html |
| 03:25.15 | brac | [43 Folders | Procrastination hack: (10+2)*5] |
| 03:25.32 | maquis | goozbach: that sounds useful... |
| 03:26.02 | goozbach | hmm... I thought that url parsing dealy with brac was anoying |
| 03:26.09 | goozbach | it's actually pretty usefull |
| 03:26.17 | maquis | goozbach: it's very useful... |
| 03:26.27 | goozbach | I no longer have to tell people what my urls are about |
| 03:26.34 | scott_ | maquis: yeah, just got the one from ZoobeeSwap |
| 03:26.39 | maquis | it tells me at a glance whether i want to follow the url |
| 03:26.41 | maquis | scott_: yup |
| 03:27.04 | goozbach | what we need to do is get it to look at the page ratings and append a NSFW on the appropiate links |
| 03:27.46 | roscivs | I don't think that's a procrastination hack ... it's more an ADD hack. |
| 03:28.15 | roscivs | It's nearly identical to advice I've heard from a speaker talking about ADD. |
| 03:28.45 | roscivs | Still cool though :-) |
| 03:30.07 | maquis | http://securityfocus.com/news/11330 |
| 03:30.09 | brac | [Digital plague hits online game World of Warcraft] |
| 03:32.35 | ScytheBlade1 | that was amazing fun |
| 03:32.37 | fishyfire | so i have: |
| 03:32.37 | fishyfire | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:32.37 | fishyfire | @pairs = split(/&/, $commands); |
| 03:32.37 | fishyfire | foreach $pair (@pairs) |
| 03:32.37 | fishyfire | { |
| 03:32.38 | fishyfire | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:32.40 | fishyfire | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:32.42 | fishyfire | } |
| 03:32.44 | fishyfire | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:32.52 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis> http://wowaids.ytmnd.com |
| 03:32.53 | brac | [Everyone in WoW has AIDS!] |
| 03:33.14 | fishyfire | and it's saying that i have uninitialized value in string eq |
| 03:33.56 | fishyfire | so any suggestios on how to go about initializing it? |
| 03:35.07 | levi | fishyfire: Are you sure 'formtype=returningclient' is in $commands? |
| 03:35.54 | fishyfire | no...how would i go about finding out? |
| 03:36.02 | fishyfire | sorry i am really new to this |
| 03:36.12 | roscivs | Stick a "print $commands;" line before your foreach loop |
| 03:38.29 | fishyfire | sorry another dumb question... where is that supposed to print? |
| 03:38.33 | fishyfire | i am getting a "Subroutine param redefined at tfmail//NMStreq.pm line 408." error also |
| 03:38.39 | roscivs | if this is a cgi script it should just come out in your html output |
| 03:39.08 | fishyfire | it just gives me an internal server error |
| 03:39.44 | fishyfire | i am trying to alter a tfmail script i got online |
| 03:40.12 | fishyfire | the page is supposed to upload the form and email it to me, and then take them to a success page |
| 03:40.24 | roscivs | If you're getting internal server errors from a mere print statement you've got bigger problems than that :-) |
| 03:40.34 | fishyfire | and i want it to go to a different page depending on which form they are coming from |
| 03:40.51 | fishyfire | no, the print statement didn't do that |
| 03:40.55 | fishyfire | my other errors caused that |
| 03:41.11 | fishyfire | i am getting an error that says: Subroutine param redefined at tfmail//NMStreq.pm line 408. |
| 03:41.37 | goozbach | and rather early at that |
| 03:42.04 | maquis | goozbach: you're going to bed already? |
| 03:42.13 | goozbach | I'm getting ill |
| 03:42.19 | maquis | goozbach: i'm sorry |
| 03:42.21 | maquis | that sucks |
| 03:42.21 | goozbach | my headache hasn't gone away |
| 03:42.27 | maquis | *hug* |
| 03:42.30 | maquis | tylenol |
| 03:42.44 | goozbach | I took an excedrin about an hour ago |
| 03:42.48 | goozbach | no dice |
| 03:42.54 | fishyfire | that stinks! |
| 03:42.55 | maquis | :( |
| 03:42.57 | ScytheBlade1 | hot shower less light |
| 03:43.06 | mheath | ~lart bad install media |
| 03:43.12 | goozbach | well a hot shower is out of the question |
| 03:43.18 | ScytheBlade1 | why's that? |
| 03:43.24 | goozbach | but less light is doable |
| 03:43.27 | goozbach | no gas |
| 03:43.30 | ScytheBlade1 | fun. |
| 03:43.33 | goozbach | no hot water |
| 03:43.33 | maquis | goozbach: why no gas? |
| 03:43.50 | goozbach | questar screwed up and stopped taking out my autopay |
| 03:43.59 | goozbach | in june I got my gas cut off |
| 03:44.05 | ScytheBlade1 | .....june? |
| 03:44.11 | goozbach | I was on the road so I didn't notice |
| 03:44.29 | goozbach | till it was off and I had one of those red tag things on my door |
| 03:44.41 | goozbach | I've been on the road since then and haven't needed it |
| 03:44.58 | goozbach | I've got a gym membership for the hot showers on the weekends |
| 03:45.07 | ScytheBlade1 | That works |
| 03:45.16 | ScytheBlade1 | hot pad? |
| 03:45.23 | mheath | Meh, I cherish showers more than anything in the world now |
| 03:45.37 | mheath | I could never stand taking ones in a gym, if I could at all hlep it |
| 03:46.12 | maquis | goozbach: lots of blankets |
| 03:46.16 | maquis | warm blankets |
| 03:46.17 | maquis | layers |
| 03:46.21 | maquis | sweatshirt |
| 03:46.24 | maquis | (hooded) |
| 03:46.29 | maquis | hat |
| 03:46.33 | maquis | keep your head warm.... |
| 03:50.31 | mheath | maquis: by the way, I've been revizing my earlier mentioned idea |
| 03:50.39 | maquis | cool |
| 03:50.50 | mheath | touchscreens aren't too doable if I want to keep the whole thing under $200 |
| 03:51.06 | mheath | It would be possible, but would be a constant pain to find LCDs and touchscreens that would fit that budget |
| 03:51.07 | maquis | mheath: that's what i was thinking... |
| 03:51.39 | mheath | I think it will be more possible in the next 10 years or so, because LCD (and probably touchscreen) prices will likely plummet |
| 03:52.45 | maquis | mheath: sure... in the next 10 years a lot of things that are insanely expensive now will be quite cheap |
| 03:52.53 | maquis | in the next 2 years it could be that way :) |
| 03:52.59 | mheath | maquis: The rest is entirely possible, though |
| 03:53.06 | mheath | I'm looking into trackpad pricing instead |
| 03:53.15 | mheath | touch pad |
| 03:53.20 | maquis | mheath: yes... i'm just curious whether the schools would go for it.... |
| 03:53.30 | ScytheBlade1 | What is the previously mentioned idea? |
| 03:54.09 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: $200 "tablet-terminals" geared for schools |
| 03:54.14 | maquis | in my experience, a lot of teachers are too scared of technology, and teachers (and parents) are *very* concerned about the negative effects of it on the classroom experience |
| 03:54.34 | ScytheBlade1 | agreed @ maquis |
| 03:54.50 | maquis | that's just what i saw at my school |
| 03:54.55 | ScytheBlade1 | One teacher at my school in specific, even if you give steps to her on paper, step by step, over and over |
| 03:55.02 | mheath | maquis: See, thats why I need to type up more of my ideas... |
| 03:55.16 | mheath | I've been putting a lot of thought and preliminary design into the environment fo rthe tablet-terminals |
| 03:55.29 | ScytheBlade1 | She *refuses* to follow the directions. In this case, she needed to go to an address on a paper. So, she typed in "bingham high school add teacher" into google, and asked why it didn't work. |
| 03:55.30 | mheath | The interface would be powerful, but simple to use |
| 03:55.36 | maquis | i also noticed that a lot of times, the grades that had them (everyone except the seniors) ended up dragging them around all day, and they were only actually used in class maybe twice a day... |
| 03:55.46 | mheath | And teachers would have complete and simple control over what their students view while in class |
| 03:55.48 | maquis | and they still had all their books to drag around on top of it... |
| 03:56.07 | mheath | maquis: this thing would be smaller and lighter than a laptop |
| 03:56.13 | roscivs | mheath: what would they be useful for? |
| 03:56.37 | mheath | roscivs: working on classwork, viewing assignments, viewing textbooks, viewing (and autosaving for later studying) powerpoint presentations and movies.... |
| 03:57.05 | mheath | Internet research while in classes (when the teacher deems it appropriate and allows it) |
| 03:57.17 | mheath | Memos, notes.. |
| 03:57.35 | maquis | mheath: in each class, will they have a separate network that they can plug into? (and only into that network) |
| 03:57.36 | mheath | Autogenerated and customizable todo list (which automatically adds your assignments) |
| 03:57.40 | ScytheBlade1 | I've debated something like that for my personal use..... the apple computers that are self-contained in the massive LCD panel |
| 03:57.50 | ScytheBlade1 | Somehow attach a touchscreen to it and simply hang it somewhere |
| 03:57.56 | ScytheBlade1 | Not quite what you're thinking of, but same idea |
| 03:58.26 | mheath | maquis: The way I figure it right now, a school would purchase a $200 computer for every student, and one or two servers (Around $10,000 each) |
| 03:59.11 | maquis | mheath: how will a given teacher grant/reject rights to internet browsing while in her classroom, while the next teacher down the hall does the opposite/ |
| 03:59.53 | mheath | maquis: that would be possible. Based on a database of what students are in what classes at what times, the servers would automatically add certain tablet-terminals to certain teachers control |
| 03:59.57 | maquis | what happens when you have a teacher who has no idea how to use the thing, and a couple troublemakers in the class who are "teaching" her... |
| 04:00.04 | fishyfire | LOL |
| 04:00.28 | maquis | mheath: what happens when the network goes down? |
| 04:00.55 | roscivs | mheath: how about the fact that there's basically no way possible, even given knowledgeable teachers and admins, to prevent undesired usage of the computers when the students have complete access to the hardware? |
| 04:01.10 | maquis | once they're all reliant on doing everything this particular way... now they can't get to textbooks, they can't get to lecture notes, they can't get to anything that they need |
| 04:01.15 | maquis | (and roscivs has a good point) |
| 04:01.20 | ScytheBlade1 | hmm |
| 04:01.33 | mheath | roscivs: they're not computers. They're advanced terminals. They're wireless and graphical terminals to a central multi-processor server |
| 04:01.57 | maquis | mheath: ideally, your project would be insanely cool... i'm just not convinced that it'd work in a real school... |
| 04:01.58 | mheath | maquis: then the tablet-terminal would run a simple notetaking-and-other-basics environment, which it loads off it's ROM |
| 04:02.01 | roscivs | advanced terminal == computer |
| 04:02.13 | maquis | it'd be a major pain to implement, too |
| 04:02.28 | ScytheBlade1 | some parts more than others... |
| 04:02.41 | roscivs | i'm sure you could at the very least hack a tetris game into the "advanced terminal" |
| 04:02.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Students tampering is easily solved with netbooting and writing new images if you're cheap, or if you're on windows, DeepFreeze does the job |
| 04:03.10 | mheath | roscivs: this is a school study and work tool. I'm specifically designing it in a way that would make such things impossible. |
| 04:03.20 | ScytheBlade1 | "impossible" |
| 04:03.21 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: you missed it |
| 04:03.21 | roscivs | mheath: What I'm saying is that you can't make it impossible. |
| 04:03.26 | ScytheBlade1 | There's a word I haven't heard in a while |
| 04:03.27 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: Its a *TERMINAL* |
| 04:03.27 | roscivs | It's impossible to make it impossible :-) |
| 04:03.32 | maquis | ScytheBlade1: that means that if they're not on-campus, they can't get to anything, and can't study |
| 04:03.34 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: Deep freeze isn't necessary! |
| 04:03.39 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, k, but the terminal still has to run *something* |
| 04:04.14 | ScytheBlade1 | and a student would much rather tamper with the OS in the tablet than the server |
| 04:04.16 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: it runs a 64MB ROM which, when the network is on, just displays what the server tells it to display, and when the network is down, has simple things like notetaking apps |
| 04:04.18 | ScytheBlade1 | less trouble when they mess it up |
| 04:05.03 | maquis | mheath: no offense on these questions/criticism/etc... i (and everyone else, i think) am just trying to bring up some issues that you should probably think about.... perhaps the criticism will help make it more possible |
| 04:05.28 | roscivs | easy hack: bring in another computer and start broadcasting as if you were the server. |
| 04:05.31 | ScytheBlade1 | again, roscivs has a point... what happens when you update the stuff on the ROM? if it is software based, I'd almost bet money that students will find it, and explot it |
| 04:05.39 | ScytheBlade1 | *exploit |
| 04:05.56 | roscivs | (and ditto to maquis, no offense intended ... |
| 04:06.00 | ScytheBlade1 | another good point there, heh |
| 04:06.01 | ScytheBlade1 | yeah, same |
| 04:06.21 | roscivs | it's just that if you attempt to proffer an "unbreakable system", most geeks' immediate urge? |
| 04:06.26 | roscivs | break the system!!) |
| 04:06.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Break it. |
| 04:06.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Break it HARD. |
| 04:06.32 | roscivs | hehehe. |
| 04:06.39 | roscivs | break it so bad it cries for its mom at night. |
| 04:06.43 | roscivs | er, but no offense intended. |
| 04:06.47 | roscivs | it's just the geek instinct. |
| 04:06.51 | roscivs | i swear! |
| 04:06.52 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: So. You'd completly disable the functionality of the only thing that gives you access to your assignments, grades, textbooks, etc......so you can install tetris on an embedded system with a 64MB ROM and 128MB RAM? |
| 04:07.07 | ScytheBlade1 | personally? yes ;) |
| 04:07.18 | ScytheBlade1 | would the average student? probably not |
| 04:07.18 | roscivs | hehe. no kidding. |
| 04:07.24 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: And the system would report to the teacher who's tablets are there and enabled |
| 04:07.25 | maquis | mheath: the reason i'm bringing all these things up is, if you try to build/convince others to use this, you're going to have to have answers to all of these issues... and it's better to deal with them in the planning stage than after it's implemented (or during implementation), or when you're trying to convince others that they should use it |
| 04:07.27 | roscivs | the average student might dual-boot though :-) |
| 04:07.28 | mheath | Auotmatic roll taking |
| 04:07.32 | ScytheBlade1 | to be blunt |
| 04:07.36 | ScytheBlade1 | the best way to protect the system |
| 04:07.41 | mheath | If you mess with the ROM and change the OS, the teacher would know during the class after that |
| 04:07.51 | ScytheBlade1 | is to leave it wide open and say "if you mess it up, you get to fix it. if you can't, you lose your priviliges." |
| 04:07.57 | maquis | mheath: if it's the only thing that gives you access to assignments, grades, textbooks, etc, then you have trouble waiting to happen |
| 04:08.12 | levi | Wow, the new soccer stadium is going to be built in Sandy. |
| 04:08.33 | mheath | maquis: I'm thinking of doing a primary, simple ROM |
| 04:08.45 | maquis | mheath: ??? |
| 04:08.51 | mheath | IE, the primary ROM (The ROM that boots) is entirely read-only; not flashable.... |
| 04:08.52 | maquis | you'll have to explain that a bit better for me... |
| 04:09.08 | mheath | It sends a checksum of the flashable, main ROM (which contains most of the stuff) to the server |
| 04:09.23 | maquis | mheath: great... but if for any reason the server goes down, i can't get to my textbooks or anything and i've got a test tomorrow |
| 04:09.26 | ScytheBlade1 | previous point: fake the server |
| 04:09.27 | maquis | i'm going to be in a bad mood |
| 04:09.41 | levi | Non-flashable ROMs are not a great idea. |
| 04:09.42 | roscivs | mheath: sending a checksum of the hardware from the compromised hardware? hmmm... |
| 04:09.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.... |
| 04:10.03 | mheath | roscivs: no, sending a checksum that is generated by an entirely read-only ROM |
| 04:10.05 | mheath | not even flashable |
| 04:10.17 | maquis | mheath: or if i have no internet access at home, and sally does have internet at home, then sally has a significant advantage over me on grades... |
| 04:10.20 | mheath | IE, there is no way the student could mess with it |
| 04:10.33 | roscivs | mheath: heh, what I'm telling you is, there is a way. there will always be a way. |
| 04:10.51 | maquis | they're already talking about how having internet access causes a grades gap based on economic status. this type of a thing will make it worse |
| 04:11.05 | *** join/#utah ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@c-67-171-124-6.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:11.25 | ScytheBlade1 | wrong button |
| 04:11.30 | mheath | maquis: $30 fee to rent a WAP module for your existing internet connection, which would give you access to the network..... |
| 04:11.51 | maquis | mheath: what if you have no existing internet connection at home |
| 04:11.51 | maquis | ? |
| 04:11.51 | mheath | $20 fee (negoiated with local telco) to provide dialup modem+WAP module, which would give you access to the network |
| 04:11.57 | maquis | ok |
| 04:12.03 | maquis | what if your parents don't want to pay that |
| 04:12.04 | mheath | er, $40 |
| 04:12.07 | maquis | and you don't have the money |
| 04:12.42 | maquis | is the school district going to pay for every student's home internet connection? |
| 04:13.00 | mheath | maquis: $40 is nothing. I paid $100 this year for basic school fees. |
| 04:13.32 | maquis | mheath: do you want to pay another 40$ on top of that, though? |
| 04:13.48 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, I think his point is to change that $100 to $40 |
| 04:13.51 | ScytheBlade1 | not $100+$40 |
| 04:14.05 | mheath | maquis: exactly. No more text book rentals, etc. |
| 04:14.18 | roscivs | mheath: If you're planning on selling this to public schools, good luck. $40 for school was a /huge/ deal when I was growing up, and for many other kids as well. |
| 04:14.26 | maquis | mheath: and you still haven't answered my question (unless i missed it) about: "the network's down... (or the server's down) i have a test tomorrow... i can't get to my textbooks... i can't get to the lecture notes for class. what am i supposed to do?" |
| 04:14.32 | levi | The textbook companies are still going to charge a per-student license fee. |
| 04:14.40 | maquis | levi: true |
| 04:15.21 | ScytheBlade1 | I think that to be blunt, the moment you try to make it "unbreakable" is the moment you'll fail... simply because most everyone's reaction here will be to "Break it. Break it HARD." It doesn't take many, but just one, to screw it up for everyone |
| 04:15.33 | ScytheBlade1 | Hence why I really do believe that an honor system with monitoring software would better suit you |
| 04:15.34 | mheath | levi: schools pay that cost, not student fees. Student textbook rental fees don't go into buying new textbooks, they go into rebinding, etc. |
| 04:16.18 | maquis | mheath: but now schools have to pay for a license for every book for every student every year |
| 04:16.34 | ScytheBlade1 | maquis, not in the case of a high school |
| 04:16.49 | mheath | maquis: they already do that. Half my textbooks last year came with access to the textbook online. |
| 04:16.59 | ScytheBlade1 | the HS buys books, reuses them over and over and over. |
| 04:17.01 | maquis | mheath: and good luck finding the text books you want in electronic form. teachers won't want to change books just because of this computer stuff... |
| 04:17.23 | maquis | mheath: then your school might be able to handle it... most schools (at least 3 years ago when i was in high school) didn't |
| 04:17.37 | mheath | maquis: .....Every major highschool textbook publisher has converted almost their entire library into electronic form |
| 04:17.54 | mheath | Glencoe, Mcdougal little (or whatever..not sure I remember that name right), etc. |
| 04:17.54 | ScytheBlade1 | the showstopper is the minorities who haven't |
| 04:18.12 | maquis | mheath: it's good that they have now... |
| 04:18.21 | maquis | i guess i'm thinking mostly at my high school |
| 04:18.28 | mheath | maquis: that was because 3 years ago was around the time a lot of these companies started converting them to electronic form |
| 04:18.39 | maquis | 90% of our books were college text books, and i think i had one in 4 years that had an electronic form |
| 04:18.53 | maquis | plus you've got the non-textbooks... |
| 04:18.59 | maquis | things like the odyssey |
| 04:19.07 | mheath | "the odyssey"? |
| 04:19.10 | mheath | Oh |
| 04:19.11 | mheath | The book |
| 04:19.11 | maquis | and "the great gatsby" *shudder* |
| 04:19.21 | mheath | maquis: most of those books already exist in ebook form |
| 04:19.43 | mheath | I'm sure you could hop on the net and find a copy of the great gatsby in ebook form |
| 04:19.44 | maquis | ok... so the school district is going to pay for licenses for all these things every year... |
| 04:19.55 | maquis | mheath: maybe... i wouldn't want to... |
| 04:20.09 | mheath | http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~joelja/odyssey.html |
| 04:20.12 | mheath | I didn't have to pay for that |
| 04:20.17 | brac | [THE ODYSSEY] |
| 04:20.18 | maquis | mheath: cool |
| 04:20.29 | maquis | so.. that's one of the questions that's handled |
| 04:21.02 | maquis | if you can get this into a form that teachers/students/parents would actually accept it, it'd be a cool project |
| 04:21.12 | ScytheBlade1 | it would be indeed |
| 04:21.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Again, I personally think the "impossible to break" approach is a very bad idea, but hey, to each their own |
| 04:22.50 | mheath | http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200041h.html (Nore did I have to pay for that) |
| 04:22.52 | Tene | I really should head home soon... |
| 04:22.56 | mheath | *Nor |
| 04:22.58 | brac | [The Great Gatsby] |
| 04:23.03 | maquis | *shudder* |
| 04:23.13 | maquis | mheath: cool |
| 04:23.32 | mheath | ~praise this project which apparently makes free ebooks from stuff thats in the public domain in australia |
| 04:23.35 | ibot | All hail this project which apparently makes free ebooks from stuff thats in the public domain in australia! |
| 04:23.47 | roscivs | That's dang spiffy. |
| 04:24.02 | roscivs | Although I suppose downloading it in the US is a copyright violation. *sigh* |
| 04:24.06 | mheath | maquis: the interface would be simple enough for anyone to figure out, too. |
| 04:24.07 | maquis | project gutenberg? |
| 04:24.14 | maquis | mheath: i dunno... |
| 04:24.28 | maquis | i've seen a lot of interfaces that i thought would be simple enough for anybody |
| 04:24.35 | maquis | and then my mom tried to use them |
| 04:24.36 | mheath | You have a toolbar at the top, with icons that (when tapped/clicked) have drop down menus. |
| 04:24.45 | mheath | And a general display area taking up the rest of the screen |
| 04:24.59 | mheath | Say I was a teacher, and had opened up a powerpoint presentation that I wanted to share with my class |
| 04:25.31 | roscivs | mheath: Then you turn on the projector and run the presentation .... ;-) |
| 04:25.48 | mheath | It would be as simple as dragging my open powerpoint presentation window to [Classes Icon]->"This Class" |
| 04:26.09 | mheath | roscivs: thats the reason my idea is a cost saver, though! |
| 04:26.25 | mheath | Based on my school, at least, which is an average middle class school in an average public school district... |
| 04:26.56 | roscivs | I think having projectors in the classroom makes sense, but not portable devices that you give to the kiddos. |
| 04:27.07 | mheath | You'd spend LESS money outfitting ALL your students with a personal tablet-terminal and buying the required servers than you would buy projectors for every classroom, computers for every teacher, and equipping 4+ labs with full desktop computers |
| 04:27.28 | roscivs | I doubt that very much. |
| 04:27.38 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath: my school has 2400 students. |
| 04:27.51 | maquis | mheath: so you wouldn't have projectors in the classroom? |
| 04:28.10 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: and you consider $490,000 an outrageous one time cost? |
| 04:28.16 | ScytheBlade1 | That's a half-million dollars on the tablets alone for every student.. |
| 04:28.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Considering that we have a system that works now |
| 04:28.49 | roscivs | one-time? so these tablets never wear out, never get lost, defaced, stolen ... ? |
| 04:29.19 | ScytheBlade1 | defaced |
| 04:29.22 | ScytheBlade1 | That'd be a huge problem |
| 04:29.32 | maquis | mheath: it's not a 1-time cost |
| 04:29.41 | maquis | it's more like a "1-time ever 3-4 years" cost |
| 04:29.52 | ScytheBlade1 | "Teacher! There's a dick on my screen!" "Yes I know, the previous student is a pervert, sorry about that, it's kinda hard to replace the screen..." |
| 04:30.07 | maquis | or maybe you can make it last 6 years... but i doubt it would last longer than that... |
| 04:30.10 | mheath | roscivs: the policy at my school for textbooks and computers right now is basically "You break it, you buy us a knew one". |
| 04:30.13 | maquis | ~language ScytheBlade1 |
| 04:30.15 | ibot | ACTION grabs ScytheBlade1 by the ear and washes ScytheBlade1's mouth out with soap |
| 04:30.19 | mheath | Yes, it would have to be replaced |
| 04:30.21 | ScytheBlade1 | It was a quote! |
| 04:30.22 | ScytheBlade1 | ;) |
| 04:30.36 | mheath | But how often do they have to replace desktops in highschools right *now*? |
| 04:30.39 | mheath | Because they get outdated |
| 04:30.57 | maquis | mheath: that's not *nearly* as many though |
| 04:31.04 | ScytheBlade1 | In my case, they do rolling upgrades, and we have enough as-is to satisfy the student body. |
| 04:31.05 | roscivs | mheath: And these tablets don't get outdated or replaced ever? |
| 04:31.06 | maquis | i mean... if you take the $490,000 figure mentioned early... that is a ton |
| 04:31.06 | mheath | The beauty of my system, being *terminals* is the only thing that you have to replace (other than due to wear and tear) is the servers |
| 04:32.04 | maquis | if you go to the school board and say "i want you to buy my system. it'll only be half a million dollars every 3 years, plus support costs, etc", they're going to look at you like you're crazy |
| 04:32.08 | roscivs | Furthermore, for $480k, let's assume 30 kids per classroom, that's $5000 per classroom that you could have spent on a projector. |
| 04:32.25 | ScytheBlade1 | a $2k projector MORE than works for a classroom |
| 04:32.26 | roscivs | Not even counting any other costs (servers, training, etc.) inherent in the system. |
| 04:32.54 | ScytheBlade1 | And this is assuming that the teachers will actually care for the training |
| 04:32.58 | roscivs | Projector prices are dirt-cheap these days :-) |
| 04:33.00 | mheath | maquis: Lets look at this. My school has approximately 1,200 students. Thats $240,000 for the tablets and approximately $10,000 for the servers, totaling $250,000. |
| 04:33.08 | maquis | ok... |
| 04:33.13 | maquis | every 3 years |
| 04:33.19 | maquis | + support contracts/costs |
| 04:33.23 | maquis | + training |
| 04:33.35 | mheath | We have 5 computer labs, consisting of approximately 30 computers each, or a total of 150 computers |
| 04:34.04 | mheath | maquis: my cost covers a lifetime support contract and an initial training seminar. I've figured that into my financial plan. |
| 04:34.12 | mheath | Then, we have about 30 teachers |
| 04:34.12 | ScytheBlade1 | ....back up a bit. |
| 04:34.18 | ScytheBlade1 | How many classes need something like this? |
| 04:34.18 | mheath | That means about 180 computers in the school |
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| 04:34.46 | maquis | mheath: are the teachers not going to need computers anymore? |
| 04:35.05 | mheath | I'd guess that probably about 15 projects are installed in the school |
| 04:35.41 | mheath | So 180 computers, 15 projectors.....and our school just spent a ton of money adding TVs to every room, so they could have morning announcements displayed on TV.... |
| 04:36.08 | mheath | 180 Computers, 15 projectors, 30 large televisions |
| 04:36.21 | mheath | Do you think you could get all that for less than $250,000 |
| 04:36.22 | mheath | ? |
| 04:36.31 | roscivs | yeah. |
| 04:36.32 | ScytheBlade1 | yeah. |
| 04:36.36 | roscivs | easily. |
| 04:36.54 | ScytheBlade1 | dell and apple give HUGE education discounts |
| 04:37.25 | roscivs | at hugely generous numbers, |
| 04:37.29 | ScytheBlade1 | likewise, while the average MS CAL runs a company $25 a pop |
| 04:37.32 | roscivs | $100 a tv |
| 04:37.35 | ScytheBlade1 | My school gets them for.......$0.47 a pop! |
| 04:37.36 | roscivs | $1000 a computer |
| 04:37.41 | roscivs | and $5000 a projector |
| 04:37.48 | roscivs | total is ... $258,000 |
| 04:38.12 | mheath | roscivs: don't forget salary for your entire support staff, as none of those prices include as major support as mine |
| 04:38.25 | mheath | We emply 3 full time techs, and 2 school-district-level guys help out a lot |
| 04:38.50 | mheath | (And remember that my *one time* cost includes product lifetime support) |
| 04:39.00 | mheath | *employ |
| 04:39.11 | roscivs | heh, so you're budgeting a wireless tablet "terminal" pc, plus 3 full-time techs and 2 school-district-level guys in $200/kid? |
| 04:39.29 | ScytheBlade1 | wow, I so just realized something |
| 04:39.31 | ScytheBlade1 | "wireless" |
| 04:39.37 | ScytheBlade1 | HAVE FUN pulling that one off |
| 04:39.43 | ScytheBlade1 | 1400 tablets on the same wifi network? |
| 04:39.44 | ScytheBlade1 | Whooooooooo |
| 04:40.16 | roscivs | oh, it's more than possible. Possible in under $200 including support costs? hmmm... |
| 04:40.20 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: did the miss the part where I said you'd be getting $10,000+ worth of server equipment? |
| 04:40.46 | ScytheBlade1 | completly ignoring the rather open nature of wifi |
| 04:40.55 | ScytheBlade1 | I have several teachers with 2.4GHz wireless phones in their room. |
| 04:41.18 | roscivs | it doesn't have to be on the normal wifi band, or even a normal protocol. |
| 04:41.25 | roscivs | there are all sorts of tricks you could use to pull it off. |
| 04:41.34 | ScytheBlade1 | true |
| 04:41.48 | mheath | roscivs: and the 3 full-time techs and 2 school-dstrict-level guys is what we have now |
| 04:41.57 | ScytheBlade1 | though if it was on the wifi band, that's the problem with phones....they don't care for protocol :) |
| 04:41.57 | roscivs | but getting the kind of production levels for these tricksy pieces of hardware ain't going to get you under $200/box |
| 04:43.17 | mheath | roscivs: even up at $250, we're still only talking $300,000 / school |
| 04:43.55 | mheath | (assuming its the same size as my example) |
| 04:44.02 | roscivs | i think you'll be lucky to get just the hardware under $250. |
| 04:44.03 | mheath | er, $310,000 with server costs |
| 04:44.14 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, assuming that it's possible at those prices, and assuming that you still pull off the OS and everything |
| 04:44.20 | mheath | roscivs: not with the prices I've been getting in the research I've been doing |
| 04:44.25 | ScytheBlade1 | Where's the motivation to replace everything they have when it already works? |
| 04:44.36 | roscivs | mheath: i'd love to see those numbers :-) |
| 04:44.44 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: I don't have the pull off the OS, I have to pull off a program |
| 04:44.50 | roscivs | if it's true I'll buy one from you. |
| 04:45.02 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: the OS is Linux.] |
| 04:45.17 | roscivs | mheath: I thought you said it was easy to use? lol |
| 04:45.22 | ScytheBlade1 | as far as the students are concerned, it's all an OS |
| 04:46.15 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 04:46.33 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: no, as far as the students are concerned its a textbook sized object wtih a simple GUI that allows them to view grades, view assignments, view textbooks, browse the internet, view an auto-generated assignment todo list, watch powerpoint presentations, take notes on, etc, etc. |
| 04:46.45 | mheath | Actually, it will be a bit smaller than a textbook |
| 04:46.52 | mheath | and much thinner |
| 04:47.41 | maquis | mheath: would your lifetime support include replacing the tablets when they get old? |
| 04:47.47 | maquis | (sorry... i fell behind) |
| 04:48.10 | maquis | because if not, then it's not a true one-time cost, imho |
| 04:48.50 | maquis | mheath: if the OS is linux, it's hackable |
| 04:48.51 | maquis | inherently |
| 04:49.29 | mheath | maquis: The tablets will have a basic warranty. They are ruggedly built; they shouldn't break unless there is abusive behavior |
| 04:49.42 | maquis | mheath: yes... |
| 04:49.49 | maquis | but you'll still have to replace them eventually |
| 04:50.00 | maquis | they're not going to last > 5 years |
| 04:50.55 | mheath | maquis: thats the average time our school holds on to computers before it upgrades them |
| 04:51.03 | maquis | mheath: yes... |
| 04:51.10 | mheath | maquis: and, as I established, counting the support staff costs, my product is cheaper. |
| 04:51.27 | mheath | maquis: it would be cheaper to replace my product every 5 years than it would be to buy new desktop computers every 5 years. |
| 04:51.58 | maquis | mheath: 300-350$/desktop computer |
| 04:52.10 | maquis | or 200-250$/tablet |
| 04:52.24 | maquis | for the desktop, you're looking at 4 for every 30 students |
| 04:52.33 | maquis | for the tablet you're looking at 30 for every 30 students |
| 04:53.04 | mheath | maquis: O.o One of our school's labs is for video editing, and another for programming in Java using an intensive IDE |
| 04:53.07 | maquis | i'm seeng the desktops being a *lot* cheaper |
| 04:53.17 | mheath | Our computers surely cost more than $350/each. |
| 04:53.36 | maquis | mheath: are the students going to be able to do video editing and programming in java with an intensive IDE on the tablets? |
| 04:53.48 | maquis | because if not, then you aren't removing those costs at all |
| 04:53.55 | mheath | maquis: not to mention: increased organization and productivity. |
| 04:54.00 | mheath | maquis: Yes. They could. |
| 04:54.12 | maquis | mheath: your tablet is going to provide video editing capabilities |
| 04:54.18 | maquis | and it's only going to be 200$???? |
| 04:54.29 | levi | Woo, pass me some of what you're smoking, mheath. It must be good stuff! |
| 04:54.36 | ScytheBlade1 | That's one disturbing server you've got there..... |
| 04:55.28 | ScytheBlade1 | lol @ levi, that reminds me of a thread on LKML not long ago. Someone asked why the kernel didn't have XML. One of the responses was, quote: "Because no one has invented strong enough weed?" |
| 04:55.42 | levi | Heh. |
| 04:55.53 | mheath | maquis: not the tablets, the servers. You place a simple computer system to upload material to the server within the classroom, and edit it using the tablets. |
| 04:56.06 | ScytheBlade1 | That's still one *amazing* server there |
| 04:56.10 | mheath | And, as I already mentioned to ScytheBlade1, the number of servers is scalable based on your needs. |
| 04:56.17 | maquis | mheath: so... your servers will be able to handle multiple students doing video editing? |
| 04:56.23 | maquis | at one time |
| 04:56.33 | mheath | Obviously, if you're planning to use them for intensive things like video editing, you'd add on a server or two. |
| 04:56.36 | maquis | remotely |
| 04:56.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Or two? |
| 04:56.39 | maquis | over a wireless network |
| 04:56.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Twenty maybe per class |
| 04:56.53 | mheath | ........ |
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| 04:57.10 | maquis | mheath: you've got some pretty snazzy servers... |
| 04:57.13 | ScytheBlade1 | We have several 3D design and CAD classes |
| 04:57.24 | mheath | This isn't pixar. It's some highschool students playing with Pinnacle's Studio Version 7 and the like. |
| 04:57.56 | ScytheBlade1 | You're right, but considering that they'd get better results from their current desktop... |
| 04:58.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Which they already have, that is |
| 04:58.00 | mheath | You don't need 20 multiprocessor servers to handle that, ScytheBlade1. |
| 04:58.44 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: we're talking about $10,000 servers! |
| 04:58.57 | ScytheBlade1 | note: I currently have about 0.02kb upstream, and likewise am badly lagged...will be for a while |
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| 04:59.12 | mheath | ScytheBlade1: you think you need $200,000 worth of computing power for a couple of students at a time to do basic home video editing? |
| 04:59.22 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) |
| 04:59.24 | maquis | mheath: if you're going to be supporting multiple students doing that + all the other students doing normal things + all the filesystem space and everything... |
| 04:59.38 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, okay, but even for $10k, it's hard to magically render 35 3D images at once in a reasonable amount of time |
| 05:00.02 | maquis | mheath: and you're doing this over a wireless network... |
| 05:00.16 | maquis | which means that you've got bandwidth issues and all that |
| 05:00.17 | mheath | maquis: The *display* is coming in over a wireless network |
| 05:00.20 | ScytheBlade1 | I realize that basic video editing is indeed part of it, but the trouble comes when they do anything more than that.....which, in my school at least, is every day past second quarter.. |
| 05:00.23 | mheath | Well, not even the display, really |
| 05:00.30 | mheath | It's not like VLC...its more like remote X11 |
| 05:00.37 | mheath | A remote display protocol |
| 05:00.59 | maquis | mheath: and remote X11 is slow just running firefox |
| 05:02.02 | maquis | mheath: anyway... if you have the choice between having a 10,000$ server, or having a set of desktops for this, i would think that the desktops might actually be the better option |
| 05:02.02 | mheath | maquis: Probably because firefox is a confusing, weird, abstracted interface! |
| 05:02.16 | maquis | mheath: and you think that doing video editing will be fast? |
| 05:02.56 | ScytheBlade1 | as it stands now, mheath, the video/computer graphics lab in my school has some GF4MX440 video cards, with 2.8GHz processors and 512MB of RAM. |
| 05:02.59 | ScytheBlade1 | For each student. |
| 05:03.18 | mheath | maquis: You think that a $10,000 multi-processor server can't handle basic home video editing? |
| 05:03.20 | ScytheBlade1 | These computers were roughly $400 each, software included. |
| 05:03.47 | maquis | mheath: if you look at the specs that ScytheBlade1 just pointed out, i would say that it won't handle the types of editing that happens in the classes... |
| 05:04.08 | maquis | it certainly won't handle it as nicely as an individual computer handling a single user can |
| 05:04.20 | maquis | i don't think that 1 user connecting to the 10,000$ server would be a problem |
| 05:04.35 | mheath | maquis: Sure it will. Multiple CPUs handle the mathematics, while multiple dedicated GPUs handle the rendering of the 3d object |
| 05:04.37 | maquis | but having 30+ users connecting to the server (or even 10) would probably be troublesome |
| 05:05.08 | maquis | mheath: 30+ users expecting 1 server to do video editing is going to cause problems |
| 05:05.42 | mheath | maquis: I don't know what kind of highschools you and ScytheBlade1 went to, but my video editing class didn't have every student constantly doing advanced and computer intensive video editing. |
| 05:06.06 | maquis | mheath: after the first semester, you're going to start getting to more advanced things |
| 05:06.42 | maquis | you said that your school had expensive computers (more than 350$) because of the need for the video editing |
| 05:06.49 | ScytheBlade1 | This is all assuming that you manage to land several thousand tablets on the same wifi network, overcome the limitations of wireless, design an OS that user friendly and flexible, provide the hardware for that price, and convince not just the school, but it's higher-ups that they should switch over from a system that already works, and works well considering, to these tablets |
| 05:07.02 | mheath | maquis: not under the Utate State Department of Education approved curriculum for Video Production |
| 05:07.08 | maquis | which means that the basic 350$ computer isn't good enough to handle it |
| 05:07.23 | maquis | which means it is computationally intensive and requires some advanced features |
| 05:07.35 | maquis | which, with 30+ students doing it at once, will cause problems |
| 05:07.56 | mheath | maquis: Remember that computations are staggered, too |
| 05:08.19 | maquis | mheath: you've still got 30+ students in a video editing class who all are working on their projects |
| 05:08.19 | ScytheBlade1 | ...compared to instant, where every student for that class has their own computer. |
| 05:08.23 | mheath | With the earlier 3d editing comment....you don't have EVERY student clicking to add an extraction to a 3d model at the exact same moment |
| 05:08.34 | maquis | mheath: going back to my previous point |
| 05:08.59 | ScytheBlade1 | mheath, uhh.....yes you do. The teacher teaches by example nine times out of ten, and has the class follow. Step by step. |
| 05:09.03 | mheath | maquis: Lets take an extreme example here |
| 05:09.07 | mheath | Cinellera |
| 05:09.15 | maquis | let's say that you're doing 3 regular computers at 350$ and 2 video editing computers at 500$ for every 30 students |
| 05:09.30 | maquis | and compare that to 30 tablets at 200$ for 30 students |
| 05:09.31 | mheath | Video editing for Linux; so advanced it could conceivably be used by major movie companies to do advanced video editing |
| 05:09.33 | maquis | you're still behind |
| 05:09.40 | maquis | you still have a lot of money to make up |
| 05:09.58 | mheath | Cinelerra runs, for the most part, comfortably on my Pentium II |
| 05:10.13 | mheath | Obviously final rendering isn't nearly as fast as a nice cluster, which cinellera supports |
| 05:10.29 | maquis | mheath: so... why couldn't you just have gone with my thing of 350$/computer? |
| 05:10.29 | mheath | but I can edit and view pseudo-renderings of my edits comfortable |
| 05:10.33 | mheath | *comfortably |
| 05:10.50 | maquis | mheath: anyway... explain how your system is cheaper |
| 05:11.12 | maquis | i adjusted my estimates to take into account the fact that the video editing computers have to be better than the regular ones |
| 05:11.30 | maquis | you still are talking about a *ton* more money for each class of 30 students than the status quo |
| 05:11.49 | mheath | Yet, you're arguing that you couldn't do 30 or so staggered similar computations on an enterprise level multi-processor server. |
| 05:12.40 | maquis | mheath: you said that you needed more expensive machines for the video-editing machines... so i was under the impression that the video editing you were talking about was something that the average desktop couldn't handle |
| 05:13.06 | maquis | and now you're flip-flopping and saying it's something that a P-II can handle, which means that you were wrong either in your response to my initial claim, or you're wrong now |
| 05:13.23 | mheath | maquis: I didn't say the cost was justified, I said thats what they spent. They have nicer P4s with a hefty amount of RAM and nice LCDs |
| 05:13.33 | maquis | mheath: fine |
| 05:13.34 | maquis | now |
| 05:14.00 | maquis | if you look at my estimates for the amount it would cost for the desktops vs the amount it would cost for the tablets, i'm saying you have some money to make up |
| 05:14.08 | maquis | i want to know *how* your system is cheaper |
| 05:15.21 | ScytheBlade1 | night all |
| 05:15.32 | maquis | mheath: i just don't see it |
| 05:15.47 | maquis | my math says that having the desktops is *significantly* cheaper for the school district |
| 05:16.04 | maquis | and i still don't see how you're going to produce tablets for 200$ each anyway |
| 05:17.04 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (n=sjk36@instruments.cs.byu.edu) |
| 05:17.11 | levi | maquis: MIT can apparently make laptops for $100, so it's not /too/ out there. |
| 05:17.47 | maquis | levi: ok... but even given the 200$/tablet, i still am coming up with the tablets being more expensive than desktops |
| 05:18.52 | maquis | 200*30 > 500*4 (assuming much nicer desktops than they would need, since their video editing class apparently only needs PIIs) |
| 05:19.01 | mheath | maquis: so? We're talking about increased productivity, organization....greater access to more resources....and technology that would bring our schools into the future! |
| 05:20.11 | maquis | mheath: i don't know that the average school district would go for that |
| 05:20.12 | levi | Honestly, our schools might be better off visiting the /past/. |
| 05:20.22 | maquis | in some upper-class areas, that might go over fine |
| 05:20.37 | maquis | but in most areas, i doubt that'll fly |
| 05:21.16 | maquis | honestly, in the local public school where i lived, half the classes were held in portables because they didn't have enough classroom space |
| 05:22.02 | maquis | within the area, it was considered a ritzy, upper-class school compared to the others in the district |
| 05:22.40 | maquis | mheath: anyway... you claimed that your version was cheaper |
| 05:22.42 | maquis | and it's not |
| 05:22.56 | maquis | and i didn't take into account the 10,000$ multi-processor servers you were mentioning |
| 05:23.20 | maquis | which would easily take it to the point where the district is considering paying 5 times what they're currently paying |
| 05:23.44 | maquis | (just for classrooms, you're already talking *at least* 3-times increase in costs |
| 05:24.17 | mheath | maquis: Yes it did O.o |
| 05:24.27 | maquis | mheath: what did what? |
| 05:24.42 | mheath | maquis: the numbers I was giving entirely took into account $10,000 for severs. |
| 05:24.55 | maquis | 200$/student includes 10,000$ servers? |
| 05:25.04 | maquis | ok... |
| 05:25.09 | maquis | what is the cost for just the tablet? |
| 05:25.14 | maquis | the cost to build it? |
| 05:25.21 | mheath | maquis: no, the numbers when I was giving examples based on my existing schools. |
| 05:25.31 | maquis | mheath: what? |
| 05:25.49 | mheath | maquis: when I was giving total-cost-per-school examples earlier, I included the $10,000. |
| 05:26.07 | maquis | mheath: i'm just talking about a single classroom |
| 05:26.19 | maquis | because you said that your system is cheaper than the status quo |
| 05:26.44 | maquis | and i proved that for every classroom, excluding servers and everything else, it will be 3 times as expensive |
| 05:27.26 | maquis | now, you have to add on top of that servers, filespace, etc to handle every student remotely running every piece of software that they use for school off of a server |
| 05:27.28 | mheath | maquis: you can't compare that. The point of them isn't directly to replace desktop systems (although thats an indirect effect), it's to give *every* student in the school their own dedicated, advanced, education-oriented computer system. |
| 05:27.45 | maquis | mheath: you said that it's cheaper than the status quo |
| 05:27.50 | maquis | you can't defend that statement |
| 05:27.53 | maquis | that's what i'm pointing out |
| 05:28.17 | mheath | maquis: if you had been paying attention much earlier, I quoted numbers and costs |
| 05:28.27 | maquis | 22:51 < mheath> maquis: and, as I established, counting the support staff |
| 05:28.27 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:28.50 | mheath | maquis: it would cost $250,000 to equip my highschool with tablets and the required server |
| 05:29.28 | maquis | mheath: you could run powerpoint (or ooimpress) simultaneously off of one server? |
| 05:29.49 | maquis | on a couple thousand tablets |
| 05:30.09 | maquis | mheath: i still don't think you can support your claim that i just quoted |
| 05:30.12 | mheath | As I stated, there are around 180 full desktop systems, 20 projectors, and 30 TVs (another thing that could be replaced) in my school |
| 05:30.43 | maquis | how many students? |
| 05:30.58 | mheath | There are 5 technicians who are paid to support these systems full time (granted two of them are shared by other schools) |
| 05:31.04 | maquis | mheath: how many students |
| 05:31.15 | mheath | maquis: Around 1,300. |
| 05:31.51 | mheath | Now, you're arguing that it would be cheaper to stick to existing desktops |
| 05:32.13 | maquis | 200*1300 = 260000 |
| 05:32.34 | maquis | you claim the server's included in that... which, i'll accept for the moment... |
| 05:32.52 | maquis | given educational discounts, my guess is your school is paying < 300$ per desktop... |
| 05:32.56 | maquis | but i'll say 300$ for now |
| 05:33.07 | maquis | 5400$ |
| 05:33.16 | mheath | maquis: My mistake. Still: Do you think you can buy 180 desktop systems, 20 projectorss, 30 large TVs, several routers, a server and pay the saleries of 5 technicians for 5 years.... |
| 05:33.19 | mheath | er |
| 05:33.22 | mheath | 3 years |
| 05:33.50 | maquis | 2000$/projector = 40,000$ (and i doubt they're paying anywhere near that much |
| 05:34.02 | mheath | For less than $270,000 total? |
| 05:34.29 | maquis | we'll say that they're paying 100$/tv (although they could get it cheaper |
| 05:34.32 | maquis | so, that's 3000$ |
| 05:35.08 | maquis | 5400 + 40000 + 3000 = 48400 |
| 05:35.43 | maquis | that leaves 221600$ for support... |
| 05:35.54 | mheath | maquis: you can get Pentium4's with 512MB of RAM and 20inch LCD monitors for $300? |
| 05:35.59 | maquis | and i don't see where you're covering the cost of support because i doubt you can do that |
| 05:36.23 | maquis | mheath: schools can get computers insanely cheap |
| 05:36.39 | mheath | maquis: for $300? |
| 05:36.59 | maquis | sometimes less than half the price of getting it as a regular person |
| 05:37.09 | maquis | mheath: i doubt they're 600$ machines |
| 05:37.17 | maquis | and as you said, you can run the software fine on a PII |
| 05:37.22 | maquis | so, therefore, that's not even an issue |
| 05:38.07 | mheath | maquis: Also, remember that my upgrade and replacement costs will be less than these desktop systems |
| 05:38.15 | mheath | you have to upgarde these desktop systems every few years |
| 05:38.27 | maquis | mheath: where are your support costs coming from? |
| 05:38.45 | maquis | with your figure of 270000, you're allocating 180$ / tablet |
| 05:38.51 | mheath | whereas, since I'm putting extra effort into building the tablets in a very durable form, the only thing you should theoretically need to replace is the server. |
| 05:39.20 | maquis | now, you're claiming that you can build the tablets for that and include support for 5 years? |
| 05:39.28 | mheath | maquis: O.o. The 270,000 was *your* calculation, using $200/tablet. |
| 05:39.42 | maquis | ok |
| 05:39.43 | maquis | sorry |
| 05:39.47 | maquis | 200$ / tablet |
| 05:39.49 | maquis | that' |
| 05:40.12 | maquis | but you're stil going to have those 5 computer techs there |
| 05:40.20 | maquis | and you've got a maintenance contract |
| 05:40.22 | mheath | maquis: the tablets cost $150 to build, probably cheaper if I started manufacturing them in bulk. |
| 05:40.38 | mheath | Woah, who said anything about 5 computer techs? |
| 05:40.42 | mheath | Out-of-house tech support. |
| 05:40.51 | mheath | Visits if required |
| 05:40.55 | levi | mheath: I think you ought to talk to someone who actually works in the electronics manufacturing industry to see what it really costs to do stuff like you're describing. |
| 05:41.09 | maquis | mheath: that's what you currently have at your school... i assure you that with a 10,000$ server that's running *everything* for 1300 students, you're going to need some on-campus techs |
| 05:41.13 | maquis | i promise |
| 05:41.45 | mheath | levi: my dad worked in designing and overseeing the manufacturing of specialized computer systems for 20 years :) |
| 05:42.14 | levi | mheath: Have you talked to him about your plans? |
| 05:42.34 | mheath | levi: yes. |
| 05:43.11 | mheath | maquis: you also have to remember that, as I mentioned, this would be a product offering of a company I plan to start that has many other products. |
| 05:43.31 | mheath | Revenue from other products can be used to help pay tech support costs. |
| 05:43.57 | maquis | mheath: i still don't think it's possible, but i've given you plenty of proof for why i think that, and a lot of it, you're just hand-waving over |
| 05:43.59 | levi | mheath: My company builds computers /right now/. I can tell you that they're neither cheap nor easy to produce. |
| 05:44.27 | maquis | so, i'm going to give up on talking sense to you, and go do some homework |
| 05:45.00 | mheath | levi: does your company build embedded systems like what I'm talking about |
| 05:45.02 | mheath | ? |
| 05:46.05 | levi | mheath: Not exactly like that, but yes. My job is to write firmware for one. |
| 05:46.26 | levi | But you have to go through the same sort of board design process, manufacturing, testing, etc. |
| 05:47.25 | mheath | levi: For the tablets themselves, I could make them simple enough that I could use a lot of premade things |
| 05:47.43 | mheath | No need to do complex board design or manufacturing. |
| 05:48.27 | levi | mheath: Dude, you really have no idea. Can you do pcb layout? Do you know how much the tools for it cost? |
| 05:49.03 | tensai | levi: I know how much they cost. I cringe at the thought. |
| 05:49.12 | mheath | levi: yes, I have some inclination. But I won't need to do that |
| 05:49.39 | levi | How, pray tell, are you going to build a thin, rugged, tablet computer without doing any engineering? |
| 05:50.19 | mheath | As I just said, I plan to (at least to begin with) use prefabricated general-purpose, ready-to-go embedded components. |
| 05:50.28 | levi | Like what? |
| 05:50.44 | levi | I'm somewhat familiar with that market. |
| 05:51.26 | mheath | levi: things like what http://www.gumstix.com/ offers. |
| 05:51.28 | brac | [gumstix - all things small] |
| 05:51.29 | mheath | Similar to that, at least. |
| 05:51.44 | levi | You're never going to reach your price point that way. |
| 05:52.20 | levi | Plus, there's /still/ board-level engineering to do. We use a DIMM-PC on one of our devices. |
| 05:52.34 | levi | It has to plug into something, which has to be engineered. |
| 05:52.47 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@c-67-169-244-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:52.54 | mheath | levi: I'm never going to do anything, currently. |
| 05:53.01 | mheath | I'm working on a demo board and server |
| 05:53.05 | Hhhhh | hello |
| 05:53.11 | levi | Hhhhh: hello |
| 05:53.16 | mheath | Something I can demonstrate to people, something that can show them - Hey! This is *useful*! |
| 05:53.40 | mheath | And in the process, I'm trying to get an idea about future prices, prices I can achieve when I *can* do custom engineering, when I have financial backing. |
| 05:54.38 | levi | mheath: Well, your ideas on prices are currently /way/ off. |
| 05:55.15 | levi | mheath: The embedded systems we use are far less featureful than you're planning and cost just about as much to MAKE as you're planning to SELL yours for. |
| 05:55.41 | mheath | levi: how much do you think it costs for a small LCD, a processor, RAM, a small ROM, and an wireless connection? |
| 05:55.48 | mheath | That's all that's required. |
| 05:56.05 | levi | mheath: Several hundred dollars. |
| 05:56.24 | mheath | levi: and several == ? |
| 05:56.41 | levi | mheath: More, if you're buying lots of pre-made things that will easily plug together. Then you're talking at least a thousand. |
| 05:57.30 | mheath | levi: I'm currently buying all the stuff I need for a working demonstration, for around $350. |
| 05:58.04 | levi | mheath: That's a demo. Where's the rugged case? |
| 05:58.55 | levi | With tooling costs, a prototype of that will cost you hundreds, if not thousands, all by itself. |
| 06:01.25 | mheath | I really need to head to sleep |
| 06:01.36 | mheath | I have to get up at 7:00 =\ |
| 06:01.43 | levi | G'night. |
| 06:13.20 | tensai | I have hope for mheath. Even though most of his ideas are half cocked, one of these times he'll get a really good one and he's stubborn enough to get it off the ground. |
| 06:14.05 | tensai | maybe tenacious is a better word than stubborn |
| 06:14.32 | levi | No, he's stubborn. |
| 06:15.24 | maquis | someone who's tenacious would at least take into account the possibility of being wrong.... |
| 06:15.27 | Hhhhh | hehe, GRE practice |
| 06:16.15 | maquis | tensai: look at the end of the conversation with levi |
| 06:16.23 | maquis | and you'll see why i say "stubborn" |
| 06:16.26 | maquis | Hhhhh: fun |
| 06:16.48 | tensai | Hhhhh: I hope for your sake that's GRE as in IP tunnels and not GRE as in the test |
| 06:17.01 | tensai | maquis: tenaciously stubborn? |
| 06:17.07 | maquis | tensai: what's GRE as in IP tunnels? |
| 06:17.13 | maquis | ~wiki gre |
| 06:17.27 | brac | [Graduate Record Examination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] |
| 06:17.27 | tensai | anyway, my point is that being stubborn or tenacious can be a good thing |
| 06:17.29 | maquis | tensai: possibly |
| 06:17.42 | maquis | tensai: to a degree |
| 06:18.04 | tensai | maquis: right now it's annoying. when he hits a really fantastic idea, it'll pay off |
| 06:18.05 | levi | tensai: I agree, but I think it needs to be coupled with a dose of humility to be really effective. |
| 06:18.06 | maquis | if i wasn't as stubborn as i am, i would've given up on this major my freshman year |
| 06:18.49 | tensai | "they said I was daft to build a castle in a swamp, but I built it anyway..." |
| 06:18.53 | levi | Something that might cause one to think, 'I still think I'm right, but I should consider the things these people are saying!' |
| 06:19.02 | maquis | if i were much more stubborn than i am, i'd be doing worse than i am because i wouldn't be willing to take peoples advice/correction |
| 06:19.07 | maquis | if you ca'nt take correction, you won't learn |
| 06:19.54 | maquis | my general opinion is, if everybody who knows the material better than me says i'm wrong, then i might want to at least consider the possibility that i'm wrong |
| 06:20.05 | maquis | because usually, it's true |
| 06:20.21 | maquis | now, usually, that means for me, that i'll ask the people to prove to me *why* i'm wrong |
| 06:20.30 | tensai | GRE is a tunneling protocol that was originally developed by Cisco, and it can do a few more things than IP-in-IP tunneling. For example, you can also transport multicast traffic and IPv6 through a GRE tunnel. |
| 06:21.11 | tensai | it's like ipsec without the encryption |
| 06:21.16 | maquis | tensai: i see a bunch of words that i recognize... and some things thta i kind-of understand... but the words don't go together |
| 06:21.22 | maquis | ~ipsec |
| 06:21.24 | ibot | i heard ipsec is implemented for Linux with FreeS/WAN, or at http://www.freeswan.org/ IP Security, it allows you to do things like encrypt and authenticate and compress IP streams between two nodes/networks on the fly (kernel level), or even supported by >= Windows 2000, so you should know what it is, or for the love of $DEITY, include the cryptoapi stuff as 'Y' ... |
| 06:21.26 | brac | [FreeS/WAN Project: Home Page] |
| 06:21.59 | maquis | wow... look at that teamwork... |
| 06:22.36 | xbmodder_lappy | hey |
| 06:22.45 | tensai | maquis: basically it's an IP level tunnel. you've used ssh port forwarding before, right? |
| 06:22.57 | xbmodder_lappy | do you think its a bad idea that my dad is giving me a credit card/check book? |
| 06:23.24 | maquis | tensai: i think i might've used ssh port forwarding... |
| 06:23.53 | tensai | a good example is ipv6 in ip tunneling. say you have to LANs that are ipv6 but are connected via ipv4. |
| 06:23.55 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: Probably. :P |
| 06:24.03 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 06:24.06 | maquis | is that what i would've used when i used goo's squid server by ssh-ing in, and running ssh -L and changing some settings in firefox so i could get to google scholar? |
| 06:24.38 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: who's putting the money in it? |
| 06:24.42 | tensai | maquis: you can use gre to tunnel the ipv6 packets to the other side. neither side knows anything funny is happening, they think they can talk pure ipv6 over the link. |
| 06:24.55 | tensai | maquis: yes, that's what ssh -L and ssh -R do |
| 06:25.03 | maquis | tensai: mmmk |
| 06:25.09 | maquis | i kinda sorta understand? |
| 06:25.22 | xbmodder_lappy | my dad and me. |
| 06:25.32 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: who's paying for bounced checks? |
| 06:25.39 | xbmodder_lappy | he gave me 10k to put in there. I took 3k.... |
| 06:25.45 | xbmodder_lappy | and put 7k out for investments |
| 06:25.48 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, very funny.. |
| 06:25.52 | tensai | maquis: another example then |
| 06:25.54 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: i'm not joking |
| 06:26.06 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, i am going to use it mainly for school. |
| 06:26.12 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, and food. |
| 06:26.22 | tensai | maquis: let's say you've got a network, 10.0.1.0/24, and I've got a network, 10.0.2.0/24. |
| 06:26.32 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: if you're responsible, checkbooks and credit/debit cards are amazingly useful |
| 06:26.42 | tensai | those are routeable over the internet at large, so we can't just send packets back and forth |
| 06:26.53 | maquis | if you aren't responsible, they're a really good way to get into debt that you'll be trying to get out of for the next 10 years |
| 06:27.01 | maquis | tensai: i'm back now |
| 06:27.13 | maquis | ok |
| 06:27.20 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, i've heard |
| 06:27.21 | maquis | what does the /24 at the end mean? |
| 06:27.29 | xbmodder_lappy | /24 subnet |
| 06:27.31 | tensai | maquis: instead, we set up a gre tunnel so that all 10.0.2.0/24 traffic going out of your LAN gets stuck inside a new IP packet with a public IP. |
| 06:27.33 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: good... if you are responsible, it's a great thing |
| 06:27.49 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, yeah over the past year my dad gave me 10k |
| 06:27.55 | xbmodder_lappy | and i didn't screw up |
| 06:28.00 | xbmodder_lappy | so this is a reward. |
| 06:28.05 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: nice |
| 06:28.09 | xbmodder_lappy | i gotta balance this now :( |
| 06:28.29 | maquis | tensai: mmk |
| 06:28.51 | tensai | maquis: it's called CIDR, classes inter-domain routing. /24 means that the first 24 bits denote the network. since there are 32-24=8 bits left, we have 256 ip addresses on the lan. |
| 06:29.16 | maquis | tensai: so... we havethis tunnel thing that takes the packets from 10.0.2.0/24, pulls the data out, and sticks them in new packets that have the address of the router? or what? |
| 06:29.26 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:29.44 | maquis | tensai: ummm... ok? |
| 06:29.52 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, but then again I am the "CTO" of my dad's company |
| 06:30.06 | tensai | maquis: no, sticks the whole original ip packet inside a new packet, sends it to the other side which strips off the new ip header and puts the original packet on its local lan |
| 06:30.28 | maquis | put a packet inside of a packet? and then send it along... |
| 06:30.29 | maquis | mmk |
| 06:30.40 | xbmodder_lappy | tunneling? |
| 06:30.58 | xbmodder_lappy | vpn-ish tunneling, am I right? |
| 06:31.06 | tensai | maquis: think of it this way. you just bought a carton of Ben and Jerry's. You want to get it to your room without your roommates seeing. So you "tunnel" it inside a shoe box to your room. |
| 06:31.21 | maquis | tensai: nice |
| 06:31.27 | maquis | ok |
| 06:31.29 | tensai | maquis: heh. that's actually a good example. |
| 06:31.41 | tensai | maquis: same exact thing with packets |
| 06:31.57 | maquis | tensai: but aside from giving the packet a public ip address and such, what does it do? |
| 06:32.02 | maquis | it hides the data? |
| 06:32.31 | tensai | doesn't hide it as such, since it's right there in plain view. but any data contained in the original packet is treated just as regular data. it's not used for it's routing information. |
| 06:33.14 | xbmodder_lappy | the egg yolk? |
| 06:33.20 | maquis | tensai: does it have a choice? it's on a 10.0.2.* address, and the rest of the world doesn't know where that is, since it's on a different netwrk, right? |
| 06:33.34 | tensai | does who have what choice? |
| 06:33.38 | maquis | so, it needs to have something that tells the rest of the world who it is |
| 06:33.41 | maquis | right? |
| 06:33.46 | maquis | tensai: the packet |
| 06:34.16 | tensai | maquis: if there was no tunnel then the packet would get dropped quickly as 10.0.2.* isn't supposed to be on the internet at large |
| 06:34.25 | tensai | so it's either tunnel or die |
| 06:34.43 | maquis | tensai: yeah... ok... that's what i was trying to say |
| 06:34.52 | tensai | maquis: then you're right |
| 06:35.05 | maquis | yay! |
| 06:36.11 | tensai | maquis: vpns have taken over most of that role though. if you're going to all the effort of tunneling, might as well encrypt the original payload. |
| 06:36.20 | maquis | tensai: that makes sense |
| 06:37.04 | xbmodder_lappy | ---10.0.2.*===tunnel====>---some other place?--- |
| 06:37.24 | tensai | maquis: I could see one use, if the default path between A and B takes a wrong turn for some reason (bad routes on an upstream router) you could create a GRE tunnel between A and C and let C send the packets to B. |
| 06:37.56 | tensai | gre would certainly have lower CPU requirements and is much easier to configure |
| 06:38.32 | maquis | tensai: or with my issue, the network i was using had stupid rules, and blocked websites like google scholar because of inappropriate content.... |
| 06:38.53 | maquis | so, in that situation... |
| 06:39.41 | xbmodder_lappy | anyone want to sponsor a bit-torrent ish project? |
| 06:39.46 | xbmodder_lappy | (help out in any way possible) |
| 06:39.47 | maquis | i take my computer, which is 192.168.2.71 (i think), and it goes through a tunnel to get to the www, at which point it gets a www address... |
| 06:39.53 | xbmodder_lappy | I am looking at delivering media (podcasts) |
| 06:39.55 | maquis | it then uses that to ssh to goo's box |
| 06:40.06 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: You're not still doing that stupid dns thing, are you? |
| 06:40.09 | maquis | and there, it gets in another tunnel, and gets a new www address |
| 06:40.19 | xbmodder_lappy | levi, not stupid but its better this time |
| 06:40.21 | maquis | and then sends a request from there to google scholar |
| 06:40.36 | maquis | and then google scholar sends back the response... |
| 06:40.41 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: Using dns to distribute files is totally misguided. |
| 06:41.25 | xbmodder_lappy | hehe what it is is 'private DNS servers' and then we have our own utility (based on HTTP) which fetches a from a random mirror |
| 06:41.37 | xbmodder_lappy | since every server running our client has it built in.... |
| 06:41.51 | xbmodder_lappy | they gotta resolve for the domain first, right? |
| 06:41.58 | maquis | which goes to goo's box, which then recognizes it as going to the connection coming through the ssh system, so it packs it back into the tunnelled address, and sends it back to my computer... and when the packet hits the point where i got the initial public address for ssh-ing to goo's machine, it pulls off the tunnel and the packet comes back to the initial address, which is me? |
| 06:42.09 | maquis | tensai: am i anywhere close? |
| 06:42.31 | xbmodder_lappy | supppose 10000 people downloaded it? and 100 people have their box up. our dns server will give out one of those people's IPs |
| 06:42.40 | xbmodder_lappy | and then the client talks to them normally |
| 06:42.51 | tensai | maquis: you could have packets bound for google tunneled from you to goo. realize that once they're un-tunneled they still look just like they originally did, so goo would have to do NAT on that 1918 address. |
| 06:42.51 | xbmodder_lappy | A giantic version of bit torrent |
| 06:43.00 | xbmodder_lappy | and even if the seed dies |
| 06:43.05 | xbmodder_lappy | it still works you know? |
| 06:43.35 | tensai | maquis: then the packets would come back to goo and he'd have to have another GRE tunnel back to you which isn't likely to work since the byu router would drop it |
| 06:43.39 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: Is it still putting mp3s in TXT records? |
| 06:43.42 | maquis | tensai: one more time? i've got packets bound for google tunneled from me to him... what does he do? |
| 06:44.13 | maquis | tensai: somehow the squid proxy managed to get the packets from google scholar to me... i'm just trying to figure out how |
| 06:44.15 | tensai | maquis: well, in a sane world where everybody had a public IP he could just forward them on to google and google would respond directly back to you. |
| 06:44.26 | xbmodder_lappy | levi, a modified version of TXT records |
| 06:44.33 | maquis | tensai: except that byu wouldn't let him |
| 06:44.35 | xbmodder_lappy | we just found DNS extremely efficent. |
| 06:44.47 | tensai | maquis: that's a little different because it's TCP tunneling |
| 06:44.57 | xbmodder_lappy | BYU blocks google scholar? |
| 06:45.18 | maquis | tensai: ok... but i'm still curious how it works |
| 06:45.30 | maquis | and i'm not sure i understand the distinction between gre tunneling and tcp tunneling |
| 06:45.37 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: It is extremely efficient at looking up domain names. Not as a file transfer mechanism, though! I don't know why you think that's a good idea still. |
| 06:45.39 | tensai | maquis: the problem with a gre tunnel in your situation is that because of the NAT out of BYU, there's no way to get a GRE packet back in. |
| 06:46.11 | tensai | maquis: one is IP, the other is TCP. :) |
| 06:46.14 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: it usually blocks it... i found another way to work aorund it (add safesearch=on to the address that it blocks) |
| 06:46.35 | levi | TCP over TCP is not a great idea. |
| 06:46.44 | xbmodder_lappy | levi, look at this: first man--dns box--http server---stupid.end.user |
| 06:46.52 | tensai | levi: sometimes it's only choice |
| 06:47.23 | levi | tensai: I guess, if UDP isn't available. |
| 06:47.39 | maquis | i'm going to have to crash and read this networking book i picked up the other day at some point |
| 06:47.50 | tensai | levi: right, like with ssh tunnels. you're right though. |
| 06:48.31 | levi | The exponential backoff features in the TCP streams screw with each other. |
| 06:48.38 | xbmodder_lappy | why doesn't someone in CS poison the arp records for it and then redirect it through a GIANT tunnel? |
| 06:49.22 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: i have a strange feeling that the cs dept would not be very happy with someone who tried to do that |
| 06:49.22 | tensai | levi: and the extra layer of reliable delivery is just a waste |
| 06:49.50 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: Was that 'look at this:' line supposed to be an enlightening explanation? Because it wasn't. |
| 06:49.57 | xbmodder_lappy | levi, hehe.... |
| 06:50.06 | xbmodder_lappy | levi, you'll see.... |
| 06:50.17 | xbmodder_lappy | when you hear of Xnet |
| 06:50.25 | xbmodder_lappy | or some cool name like that |
| 06:50.32 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: doing stupid things with dns is not going to make friends for you |
| 06:50.48 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, these are special DNS servers |
| 06:51.04 | tensai | ~lart #utah for tricking tensai into staying up past his bedtime |
| 06:51.09 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, see DNS is really good at caching and being smart |
| 06:51.22 | levi | tensai: We didn't trick you, you did it all by yourself! :) |
| 06:51.23 | xbmodder_lappy | ~lart dns for being slow |
| 06:51.27 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 06:51.37 | maquis | tensai: it's past your bedtime already? |
| 06:52.11 | tensai | maquis: I wish I could go to bed at 10:30. we used to, but the new kid doesn't follow our schedule very well |
| 06:52.11 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: is it going to get cached on public dns servers and cause other dns servers to have the same records you do? |
| 06:52.19 | maquis | tensai: :) |
| 06:52.26 | maquis | how old? |
| 06:52.33 | tensai | maquis: 3 months |
| 06:52.39 | maquis | (boy? girl?) |
| 06:52.42 | maquis | pics? |
| 06:52.57 | tensai | why do I feel like I've had this conversation with you already? |
| 06:53.07 | tensai | if I wasn't so tired I would check the archives |
| 06:53.10 | maquis | tensai: might've... i have no memory |
| 06:53.28 | tensai | maquis: boy. pics in my gallery, linked off my blog |
| 06:53.33 | maquis | i use up all the memory i have for remembering things for tests and such |
| 06:53.35 | maquis | tensai: cool |
| 06:53.48 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, this is how it works. somebody sends me a file (less than 20MB). I put it up on my DNS server. I put the file name up. my friends use my neat DNS system with about 4 servers now. It'll be about 50-5000 when its over |
| 06:53.57 | xbmodder_lappy | they put it into a neater form |
| 06:54.02 | xbmodder_lappy | and serve it over HTTP |
| 06:54.16 | xbmodder_lappy | they have the choice |
| 06:54.22 | xbmodder_lappy | (most people are smart enough) |
| 06:54.55 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: are you going to be taking up any cache space on any servers besides your own |
| 06:54.59 | maquis | ? |
| 06:55.03 | xbmodder_lappy | I am not. |
| 06:55.05 | xbmodder_lappy | no. |
| 06:55.26 | xbmodder_lappy | I learned most servers store maximally 200 records per domain |
| 06:56.12 | xbmodder_lappy | happy? |
| 06:56.22 | maquis | it's still an abuse of dns |
| 06:56.26 | xbmodder_lappy | how so? |
| 06:56.50 | xbmodder_lappy | its an innovation, eh? |
| 06:56.55 | maquis | transferring files over dns? |
| 06:57.03 | xbmodder_lappy | no. mirroring files over DNS |
| 06:57.14 | xbmodder_lappy | the actual end-user junk will be over HTTP |
| 06:58.32 | maquis | tensai: right... i remember the pictures now that i've found them |
| 06:58.37 | maquis | they're cute! |
| 06:58.37 | maquis | :) |
| 06:58.41 | xbmodder_lappy | do you think me and my friends could get 50-500 people to join the network? |
| 06:58.57 | maquis | how many friends do you have? |
| 06:59.12 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: You know, any mirroring method that requires base64 encoding, chopping into 255 character chunks, and then still needs explicit queries to get the files is /not/ a useful innovation. |
| 07:00.26 | xbmodder_lappy | hehe |
| 07:00.49 | xbmodder_lappy | >>> len(a) |
| 07:00.49 | xbmodder_lappy | 151 |
| 07:00.49 | xbmodder_lappy | >>> len(a.encode('base64')) |
| 07:00.49 | xbmodder_lappy | 207 |
| 07:03.18 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: DNS doesn't even really 'mirror' anything. It just caches queries. After the TTL expires, it still requires hitting the authoritative server again. |
| 07:03.43 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, i know about 3 guys who will join |
| 07:03.50 | xbmodder_lappy | levi, but for the initial distrubution |
| 07:03.51 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: hmmm |
| 07:03.56 | maquis | 3 down 47 to go |
| 07:03.57 | xbmodder_lappy | and there is almost no way to block it. |
| 07:04.11 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, 3 down 4997 to go. |
| 07:04.21 | xbmodder_lappy | don't tell me your gunna block 5000 DNS servers |
| 07:04.31 | levi | xbmodder_lappy: For the initial distribution... it still has to query the authoritative server. |
| 07:04.32 | xbmodder_lappy | actually filter all DNS |
| 07:04.33 | maquis | xbmodder_lappy: what do you mean about "initial distribution"? |
| 07:04.41 | maquis | you're going to cache it... |
| 07:04.45 | xbmodder_lappy | see there are master servers |
| 07:04.49 | maquis | which is what you said earlier you wouldn't be doing? |
| 07:04.53 | xbmodder_lappy | and then level 2 servers |
| 07:05.00 | xbmodder_lappy | the level 2 fetch it |
| 07:05.05 | xbmodder_lappy | and then level 3 and so on |
| 07:05.20 | xbmodder_lappy | at level 5 or 6 the people will report |
| 07:05.26 | xbmodder_lappy | and convert their servers to HTTP |
| 07:06.15 | tensai | maquis: think they'll get mad at me for walking their ldap tree? |
| 07:06.35 | xbmodder_lappy | maquis, sorry |
| 07:08.35 | xbmodder_lappy | I calculated there is a 74 percent ineffinency in base64 |
| 07:08.57 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (n=cristoba@c-67-169-244-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 07:09.27 | xbmodder_lappy | and a 33 percent efficency |
| 07:09.29 | xbmodder_lappy | in DNS |
| 07:10.16 | xbmodder_lappy | our design has a 55 percent efficency |
| 07:18.42 | Hhhhh | hmm, anybody that has used/current;y uses ubuntu and fc4? |
| 07:19.06 | *** join/#utah usynic (n=synic@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 07:21.46 | levi | I tried an Ubuntu liveCD at one point. |
| 07:22.02 | levi | Never used FC4, though. |
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| 13:30.22 | graphyx | morning. |
| 13:35.54 | hans | yup |
| 13:35.56 | roscivs | Hhhhh: I've used both ubuntu and fc4, although the latter far more than the former. |
| 13:36.37 | roscivs | Oh. He's gone anyway. n/m then ;-) |
| 13:41.17 | hans | o/~ abandon she said |
| 13:41.29 | hans | willI ever regain consciousness? |
| 13:52.40 | mheath | O.o |
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| 14:43.19 | goozbach | you mean people don't use the most efficent means possible all the time?! |
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| 14:47.46 | goozbach | maquis: what i had set up was an ssh tunnel to my squid server |
| 14:48.14 | goozbach | you would forward the ssh port from the remote squid machine to your machine |
| 14:49.16 | goozbach | then connect to your local 'squid' port which would then tunnel your request through to the squid server remotly which would visit the site on your behalf |
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| 14:58.06 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 15:01.51 | lbates | does anyone know if there is a plug meeting tonight? |
| 15:01.57 | goozbach | there is |
| 15:02.00 | goozbach | 7:30 |
| 15:02.03 | goozbach | viawest |
| 15:02.07 | lbates | at the viawest ... |
| 15:02.13 | goozbach | on BSD |
| 15:02.16 | lbates | good deal, is it the freebsd |
| 15:02.17 | lbates | sweeeeeeeeeet |
| 15:02.21 | lbates | thanks |
| 15:02.27 | goozbach | np |
| 15:08.32 | Jayce^ | BSD for Linux users :) |
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| 16:15.07 | goozbach | I had cinnimon life this morning |
| 16:15.30 | maquis | ~eat goozbach |
| 16:15.32 | ibot | ACTION eats goozbach and falls over dead |
| 16:15.37 | Jayce^ | cinnamon bagel with whipped strawberry cream cheese |
| 16:16.27 | hans | ~punish maquis |
| 16:16.28 | ibot | ACTION forces maquis to install and use Windows |
| 16:16.31 | goozbach | mock |
| 16:16.32 | hans | you're going to dye young |
| 16:16.51 | Jayce^ | going gray already? |
| 16:17.21 | hans | she doesn't sleep or eat. something's gotta give. if it's hair color, so be it. |
| 16:19.26 | *** topic/#utah by Jayce^ -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feeds | PLUG meeting tonight.. *BSD for Linux Users |
| 16:21.10 | hans | sleep is one thing, when in college. but you gotta eat |
| 16:24.11 | maquis | hans: i just don't usually get breakfast... |
| 16:24.22 | maquis | especially when i'm running late... |
| 16:26.04 | sjansen | Bad habit. You'll do better in class if you don't have rock bottom blood sugar levels. |
| 16:27.39 | hans | and you'll work more efficiently, allowing you to go to bed earlier and get up on time |
| 16:28.02 | hans | do not underestimate the power of the low side |
| 16:28.16 | hans | ~breathe |
| 16:35.13 | maquis | we were just discussing how to do it, so i figured i might as well do it and turn it in :) |
| 16:45.36 | graphyx | ~exhale |
| 16:47.54 | maquis | has everybody seen google reader? |
| 16:49.52 | Jayce^ | pretty nice |
| 16:50.05 | maquis | yeah |
| 16:51.54 | hans | my introduction to google reader was someone complaining that it didn't render my feeds, which have no validation problems to my knowledge |
| 16:52.11 | hans | so it sounds like gmail all over agin |
| 16:57.42 | sjansen | Oh how the mighty are slipping. |
| 17:08.12 | mrpull-_ | google reader isn't good for me... i read too many feeds |
| 17:11.29 | sjansen | mrpull-_: Define "too many". More or less than my 55 subscriptions? |
| 17:12.00 | graphyx | <PROTECTED> |
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| 17:15.21 | sjansen | graphyx: Just wondering if I shouldn't even bother. I tried using gmail and it obviously wasn't designed for dealing with more than a couple list subscriptions. |
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| 17:18.10 | maquis | sjansen: graphyx: what feed readers do you use? |
| 17:18.33 | Bradipo | sjansen: At least google still has a good search engine. :-) |
| 17:20.27 | sjansen | maquis: bloglines, although I hope to someday write my own because there are several things that bug me about bloglines |
| 17:21.54 | *** part/#utah mrpull-_ (n=mrpull|@205.158.184.112) |
| 17:24.16 | goozbach | hmm liunch |
| 17:24.19 | goozbach | er lunch |
| 17:26.12 | tensai | http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3555716 |
| 17:26.19 | brac | [FTC Freezes Internet Kiosk Businesses] |
| 17:26.33 | tensai | I hear these ads all the time on the radio. well, I guess I used to |
| 17:27.23 | tensai | figured it was a scam. didn't realize how bad. they were charging $15,000 for an wifi kiosk. |
| 17:29.07 | maquis | http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69113,00.html?tw=rss.TOP |
| 17:29.09 | brac | [Wired News: Machine Makes Dishes on Demand] |
| 17:29.15 | maquis | that's way cool! |
| 17:34.41 | maquis | An X-ray refrigerator uses an interior camera to project the fridge's contents onto the outside door so people can see what's inside without opening the door and wasting energy. The camera takes a snapshot of the fridge each time the door is opened, when the contents are likely to change. Future designs would transmit the image to a cell phone or other handheld device so shoppers could see what's in their fridges while strolling the grocery store aisles. |
| 17:35.56 | maquis | that's a cool article |
| 17:36.08 | tensai | nice, but you still can't see what's behind the milk |
| 17:36.51 | goozbach | just put a camera at all four sides |
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| 17:43.08 | RyanE | the lengths some people will go to get out of washing dishes... |
| 17:45.02 | *** join/#utah mrpull- (n=mrpull|@205.158.184.112) |
| 17:45.32 | maquis | RyanE: it's not just that... you can tell it exactly what dishes you need |
| 17:45.43 | maquis | so, if you are having soup for dinner, it gives you a bunch of soup bowls |
| 17:45.47 | maquis | etc |
| 17:47.12 | maquis | sjansen: hmmm bloglines is pretty cool |
| 17:47.38 | sjansen | Yet again, if it sounds to be good to be true, it probably is. |
| 17:48.13 | RyanE | maquis: Yeah, I read it. Still don't find it that useful of an idea. Maybe I just happen to own enough plates / dishes. |
| 17:48.25 | maquis | RyanE: :) |
| 17:49.23 | tensai | the amount of energy to make 3 plates a day for a year is less than that to make one ceramic plate. sounds great, but I don't replace my plates every year. |
| 17:56.15 | *** join/#utah hans (i=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 17:56.27 | hans | -lart vontrapp |
| 17:57.46 | hans | well that's a little extreme |
| 17:59.00 | vontrapp | ~whois cisi.com |
| 17:59.54 | vontrapp | so far, two emails informing me that someone has attempted to access my paypal account |
| 18:00.29 | hans | let me count... |
| 18:00.33 | hans | ok, I won't count. |
| 18:00.36 | hans | upwards of 5 bazillion |
| 18:00.42 | hans | fake paypal emails |
| 18:00.46 | vontrapp | the email has a link to verify my identity, which goes to http://www.cisi.pl/ /https:/www.paypal.com/... |
| 18:00.52 | hans | phishing |
| 18:01.05 | hans | vontrapp: don't click the link!!!!!?!??11!!! |
| 18:01.11 | hans | only too |
| 18:01.15 | vontrapp | hans, of course no |
| 18:01.30 | hans | if you go to your paypal acct you will see all kinds of things about online safety, how to tell a scam, etc. |
| 18:01.38 | hans | which nobody reads of course, but they really have nothing else they can do |
| 18:01.47 | hans | and ebay too |
| 18:02.31 | tensai | ebay has an address, spoof@ebay.com, where you can forward suspect messages. they're respond quickly and let you know if it's bogus or not |
| 18:02.51 | tensai | *if* people know about it, I'd say that's a pretty good idea |
| 18:03.08 | hans | i have this nifty thing called an ancient mail reader that makes me immune to these attacks |
| 18:03.15 | hans | ~hug mutt |
| 18:03.16 | ibot | ACTION hugs mutt |
| 18:03.17 | vontrapp | ;) |
| 18:03.58 | hans | interestingly, even though I can't tell the difference without looking at the links to see if it's phishing, my bayesian filter can. |
| 18:04.12 | hans | my legit paypal/ebay email usually comes through clean |
| 18:04.57 | vontrapp | well, it shouldn't be too hard with incredulous urls like http://somewhere/ /https:/somewhere.else/... |
| 18:05.30 | hans | but you understand "somewhere". a bayesian filter doesn't, intrinsically |
| 18:06.08 | vontrapp | it could recognize the double http pattern |
| 18:06.20 | hans | not a bayesian filter |
| 18:06.26 | hans | at least, not a pure one |
| 18:06.48 | hans | spamassassin probably has 12 modules that recognize that pattern in various forms, and take 18 megabytes RAM to do it. ;-) |
| 18:07.19 | vontrapp | 18 Megs!? |
| 18:09.54 | vontrapp | -lart OCT |
| 18:10.29 | hans | well I'm probably exaggerating |
| 18:10.45 | vontrapp | -lart OCT |
| 18:10.49 | hans | i have no idea how much ram SA really uses. cue the SA bigots |
| 18:11.37 | vontrapp | why would you feel the need to have "the network" detect and refuse service to "routers"? |
| 18:12.19 | hans | power trip, to extract even more money, or plain stupidity |
| 18:12.40 | hans | i.e. their superl33t ISP software had that option so they use it. |
| 18:17.08 | vontrapp | well, i don't know if it actually detects my router, they say "we don't support routers, it shouldn't work at all" |
| 18:17.21 | vontrapp | it DOES work, but it does not get the public IP address |
| 18:17.39 | vontrapp | so not sure exactly what's going on there |
| 18:18.28 | vontrapp | i've talked to several people on the phone, no one has a clue, and one person who did have a clue still didn't have a clue why it wouldn't get the right address |
| 18:20.27 | vontrapp | now, i have to run a cable accross the room (and hallway floor) to my computer, then another from the computer back the same way, completely combersome and annoying |
| 18:21.00 | vontrapp | and it probably STILL won't get the public ip even when i plug it into my computer |
| 18:21.44 | hans | "we don't support routers" is probably 'the word', and some idiot(s) figures that implies "it shouldn't work at all" |
| 18:22.43 | tensai | vontrapp: I don't get what you're trying to do and what's not working about it |
| 18:23.39 | vontrapp | OCT has a public ip service, and a default service |
| 18:24.05 | vontrapp | i asked for (and payed for, but everyone pays for it in the complex, so that's moot) the public ip |
| 18:24.14 | vontrapp | alas, i get the default, as of about two weeks ago |
| 18:24.45 | vontrapp | worked before, and i never heard 'the word' before |
| 18:24.58 | vontrapp | now it doesn't work, and they say "we don't support routers" |
| 18:25.06 | vontrapp | so probably is something to do with their new policy |
| 18:25.28 | tensai | you're trying to add like a wrt54g? |
| 18:25.46 | vontrapp | no, the wrt54g is already there, has been for months |
| 18:26.01 | tensai | ok. been there, just completely stopped working |
| 18:26.16 | vontrapp | not completely, just fell back on default service |
| 18:26.21 | vontrapp | which is about 100x slower |
| 18:26.34 | vontrapp | and not accessible from outside |
| 18:26.37 | tensai | I see. it's picking up the wrong IP address now? |
| 18:26.56 | vontrapp | it's picking up a local subnet ip |
| 18:27.10 | vontrapp | Iago on commedy central |
| 18:27.25 | jeb | hans: ever seen a tg3 error for the broadcom cards |
| 18:27.25 | vontrapp | at least, the guy that does the voice |
| 18:28.19 | vontrapp | tensai: and so doing the NAT thing |
| 18:29.10 | vontrapp | i've talked to them like 20 times, i'm still there with the public ip in their computers, with the right mac address, but they're dhcp server doesn't give me the right address |
| 18:29.36 | tensai | vontrapp: do you get a static IP, or just a dynamic public IP? |
| 18:29.41 | vontrapp | static |
| 18:29.56 | vontrapp | i suppose i could set it up staticly |
| 18:29.58 | vontrapp | see if that works |
| 18:30.12 | vontrapp | but they do all kinds of routing "tricks" so it may not work |
| 18:30.37 | tensai | are they using pppoe? dhcp? |
| 18:31.38 | vontrapp | dang, no idea what the gateway should be |
| 18:31.59 | tensai | try .254 or .1 |
| 18:33.16 | tensai | or hook your computer up just long enough to find out the right network settings |
| 18:33.26 | hans | jeb: tg3 is the name of the kernel driver, iirc |
| 18:34.01 | jeb | hans: yep, caused a complete system lock up |
| 18:35.45 | vontrapp | nope |
| 18:38.10 | scott_ | I need to compare a dozen or so site organizations. anyone know of a tool that makes it easy to jot down the organization of each individual site and then see the similarities between the differnet sites? like I'm thinking a graphical "brainstorming" type thing with the connecting lines and all and then a way to aggregate them and visually show what's teh most common structure |
| 18:40.19 | goozbach | http://tinyurl.com/azzb5 |
| 18:40.20 | brac | [302 Found] |
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| 18:40.35 | goozbach | brac: you suck! |
| 18:40.48 | goozbach | four most common security miths |
| 18:41.00 | goozbach | er myths |
| 18:44.23 | hans | goozbach: heh, that's on my todo list |
| 18:44.53 | hans | library doesn't have a follow_redirects_get |
| 18:46.38 | maquis | :) |
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| 19:06.10 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 19:09.12 | graphyx | maquis: I don't use rss feed readers. |
| 19:09.46 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp29.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 19:11.00 | levi | Afternoon, all. |
| 19:12.01 | graphyx | Hey levi |
| 19:21.28 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp29.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 19:28.16 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@hfugal.NMSU.Edu) |
| 19:29.13 | levi | elg: Dude, what's up with your connection? |
| 19:29.27 | elg | it obviously wasn't very good back there |
| 19:29.44 | graphyx | levi: I am not sure it is the up that is the problem.. more likely the up and down of his connection that is the problem. |
| 19:29.56 | hans | graphyx read the feeds in straight binary |
| 19:35.19 | sjansen | My work INBOX is empty!!! |
| 19:35.43 | vontrapp | 0.o |
| 19:36.19 | levi | sjansen: The horror! |
| 19:38.04 | sjansen | And I identified a project requirement as un-needed. :-) |
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| 19:38.58 | graphyx | Is jsmith going out to that asterisk convention this next week? |
| 19:41.37 | *** part/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 19:45.01 | tensai | graphyx: yes |
| 19:45.42 | tensai | I would guess that he's there already since it starts tonight |
| 19:46.11 | tensai | actually, there were developer's meetings yesterday that he might have attended too. |
| 19:46.13 | tensai | ~seen jsmith |
| 19:46.19 | ibot | jsmith <n=jsmith@64.0.193.23> was last seen on IRC in channel #uphpu, 1d 1h 6m 54s ago, saying: 'RyanE: Nope.'. |
| 19:48.27 | goozbach | well I'm back up to a couple free tickets on Delta... |
| 19:48.39 | goozbach | where should I go next? |
| 19:48.56 | levi | Disneyland? |
| 19:49.12 | goozbach | been there recently |
| 19:49.36 | goozbach | maybe I'll go to the child's play Charity Dinner. |
| 19:50.12 | vontrapp | go to cambodia |
| 19:50.53 | levi | Interesting... Peter Van Roy will be at BYU to give a talk on either teaching programming or distributed programming. http://www2.info.ucl.ac.be/people/PVR/booktour.html |
| 19:50.54 | brac | [American University Tour] |
| 19:51.35 | levi | He's one of the authors of Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming, which is a very interesting book. |
| 19:52.53 | levi | hans: He's also going to NMSU, which is probably closer to you. :) |
| 19:53.00 | sjansen | goozbach: Idaho Falls |
| 19:53.36 | goozbach | sjansen: I've never been there. |
| 19:53.57 | sjansen | goozbach: What, you didn't enjoy it? |
| 19:53.57 | tensai | goozbach: it's a party ever minute here |
| 19:54.31 | sjansen | tensai: You're handling things well. I would have been deeply offended by goozbach's quick dismissal. |
| 19:55.55 | levi | Ugh, I just got blog-spam for an online florist. :/ |
| 19:56.05 | tensai | sjansen: I don't need his approval. I don't need anybody! |
| 19:56.25 | tensai | levi: lisp log or drupal? |
| 19:56.34 | levi | tensai: drupal |
| 19:57.05 | levi | tensai: Apparently someone's written a script that fills in the title field with different info, so my anti-spam measure isn't quite as effective anymore. |
| 19:57.26 | tensai | levi: did the script set a referer? |
| 19:59.14 | levi | I dunno. I'm not checking that, as far as I remember. |
| 19:59.35 | tensai | http://drupal.org/project/captcha |
| 19:59.36 | brac | [captcha | drupal.org] |
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| 20:00.24 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 20:01.09 | vontrapp | levi: I'm going to use a very simple anti-spam technique for my blog |
| 20:01.32 | vontrapp | "Enter the first word of the entry's title" |
| 20:01.44 | vontrapp | hans' idea |
| 20:01.52 | Tene | hmm |
| 20:01.55 | levi | vontrapp: My Lisp blog has a simple anti-spam technique, but it's only running my programming blog, not my old one. |
| 20:02.14 | sjansen | I'm going to require a credit card number. |
| 20:02.22 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 20:02.29 | *** join/#utah fungus_ (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 20:02.52 | vontrapp | hmm, how do you get more comprehensive gem repos? |
| 20:03.12 | levi | I'm going to ditch Drupal soon. It runs too slowly on the machine I'm using, and I'm not currently using any of its advanced features. |
| 20:04.14 | hans | vontrapp: rubyforge is the most comprehensive |
| 20:04.27 | vontrapp | no fusefs :( |
| 20:04.52 | hans | then maybe it's only available at the author's site. if you find the url, you just have to do |
| 20:05.03 | hans | gem install http://example.com/path/to/something.gem |
| 20:05.22 | vontrapp | well, there's this http://rubyforge.org/frs/download.php/6158/fusefs-0.3.tar.gz |
| 20:05.33 | vontrapp | but that's not a gem file |
| 20:05.50 | hans | if there's not a gem listed on the rubyforge files page, there's probably not a gem |
| 20:06.10 | vontrapp | but why!? it's a tar.gz, how hard is it to make a gem |
| 20:06.28 | hans | slightly harder than making a tar.gz |
| 20:06.40 | hans | and can be considerably harder if you got really strange requirements |
| 20:07.13 | sjansen | ~stop the package maddness |
| 20:07.14 | ibot | ACTION leaps to his feet and stops the package maddness |
| 20:07.45 | hans | it's a shame gems isn't perfect. I so wish it were. |
| 20:08.05 | hans | back in the day I was an RPA proponent, but even then I realized the "make your own" approach of gems would trump RPA |
| 20:08.17 | hans | fbofw |
| 20:08.29 | levi | Heh, good thing we don't have an Apple Store here: http://blog.daveastels.com/?p=54 |
| 20:08.31 | brac | [DaveAstels.com » A new member of the family] |
| 20:10.09 | hans | yay, my sametime groups are back with this adium |
| 20:10.29 | hans | -host digecor.com |
| 20:10.30 | brac | digecor.com has address 209.210.93.26 |
| 20:10.31 | vontrapp | ~wtf fbofw |
| 20:10.41 | hans | for better or for worse |
| 20:10.45 | hans | you know, like the comic |
| 20:12.12 | hans | meanwhile is a gaim protocol plugin for the sametime (lotus notes not-invented-here-syndrome) IM protocol |
| 20:12.49 | hans | adium was stealing all my "work" contacts and siphoning them into the "all locations" automatic group (which I have no control over) |
| 20:16.32 | levi | Heh. New iPod. With video. |
| 20:16.55 | levi | Also, an Apple Remote Control, for sing your iMac as a TV. |
| 20:17.50 | levi | And yet another iTunes release. |
| 20:20.40 | vontrapp | http://redhanded.hobix.com/inspect/railsfsAfterACoupleMinutesOfToolingWithFuseWhoa.html |
| 20:20.43 | brac | [RedHanded » RailsFS After a Couple Minutes of Tooling With Fuse, Whoa] |
| 20:22.05 | levi | Apparently you can buy ABC and Disney TV shows on iTunes Music Store, too. |
| 20:22.56 | Jayce^ | the sad thing is, I can see the value in that (long trip, kid in the back seat....) |
| 20:25.34 | hans | levi: what's new in itunes? ogg? |
| 20:26.04 | levi | hans: Mostly just more video stuff. I don't think ogg is even on their radar. |
| 20:26.23 | Jayce^ | hans, you have any luck with that driver? |
| 20:26.24 | hans | decent podcasts? |
| 20:26.37 | hans | yeah, it's wonderful. but it still stinks, technically speaking. |
| 20:26.43 | vontrapp | what is mkmf? |
| 20:26.48 | Jayce^ | a bit of a processor hog |
| 20:27.01 | hans | and no streaming |
| 20:27.25 | vontrapp | in ruby |
| 20:27.28 | hans | it looks like still a quicktime component, rather than the audio codec it should be |
| 20:27.31 | levi | Apparently there's no Firewire on the new iPods. |
| 20:27.33 | vontrapp | require 'mkmf' |
| 20:27.37 | hans | it makes makefiles |
| 20:27.48 | vontrapp | any idea what package it would be in? |
| 20:27.50 | hans | levi: why not? |
| 20:28.02 | levi | hans: Probably to save space. They're even thinner now. |
| 20:28.22 | sjansen | ~thank goozbach for the cookie |
| 20:28.22 | ibot | sjansen: de nada |
| 20:28.29 | hans | vontrapp: stdlib |
| 20:28.34 | hans | http://ruby-doc.org/stdlib/ |
| 20:28.34 | brac | [Ruby Standard Library Documentation] |
| 20:28.44 | hans | http://ruby-doc.org/stdlib/libdoc/mkmf/rdoc/index.html |
| 20:28.45 | brac | [mkmf: Ruby Standard Library Documentation] |
| 20:29.15 | hans | levi: this smallness thing is becoming an obsession |
| 20:29.32 | levi | hans: it sells more iPods. |
| 20:29.46 | levi | It does have better battery life, though. |
| 20:29.52 | hans | if I had the choice between a millimeter or two thickness and firewire, guess which I'd choose. especially with the ever-increasing capacity of those things |
| 20:29.56 | levi | And a bigger screen, I think. |
| 20:29.56 | hans | better battery life is good |
| 20:30.09 | levi | All iPods are now color and photo/video capable. |
| 20:30.10 | byronc | vontrapp: libruby1.8-dev |
| 20:30.46 | levi | hans: Did you see this? http://www2.info.ucl.ac.be/people/PVR/booktour.html |
| 20:30.47 | brac | [American University Tour] |
| 20:30.52 | hans | oh no! my subscription to the one big clever advertisement that tries to look like it's not an advertisement (macworld) is up. |
| 20:31.12 | vontrapp | coudln't find package libruby1.8-dev |
| 20:31.17 | vontrapp | -lart ubuntu |
| 20:31.39 | byronc | vontrapp: make that ruby1.8-dev |
| 20:32.34 | mheath | Hmmm. |
| 20:32.45 | mheath | I have two Java processes running on two different hosts |
| 20:33.01 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 20:33.02 | mheath | is there an elegant way that I could allow host1 to call methods on host2s process? |
| 20:33.19 | hans | whoa. he's just happening to come to both nmsu and byu? what are the chances of that? |
| 20:34.15 | hans | and who is he, anyway? :) |
| 20:35.10 | sjansen | mheath: you talking java rmi? |
| 20:35.20 | sjansen | elegant is in the eye of the beholder |
| 20:35.41 | mheath | sjansen: haha, indeed :) |
| 20:35.54 | mheath | I didn't use to like java, nor think it at all elegant |
| 20:35.56 | mheath | but it's grown on me |
| 20:36.05 | mheath | sjansen: thanks for the acronym of reference, though ;) |
| 20:36.20 | levi | hans: He's a co-author of Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming, which is an up-and-coming CS book that uses the Oz language to teach about programming. It's kind of in the spirit of Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. |
| 20:36.22 | hans | levi: i don't know who juris reinfelds is |
| 20:36.37 | levi | hans: Peter Van Roy is the guy who's speaking. |
| 20:36.42 | hans | might not be the CS dept. |
| 20:36.50 | levi | I don't know who Juris Reinfelds is either. |
| 20:36.59 | hans | :) |
| 20:37.14 | hans | well I do know who irene Langkilde-geary is, so I've got one up on you |
| 20:37.14 | levi | I'll probably be going to the talk, though. |
| 20:37.39 | levi | I've read about half of Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming, and it's very good. |
| 20:38.13 | levi | I could get you the pdf if you want it. It's not freely available online anymore since the book has been published. |
| 20:39.15 | hans | sure |
| 20:43.43 | levi | Heh, the sister missionaries just tracted into me. |
| 20:44.34 | sjansen | levi: Don't forget to feed them. |
| 20:44.38 | graphyx | Sure come on in. I hear you guys know something about a Joe Smith... |
| 20:48.29 | hans | sugar soup? |
| 20:49.00 | Jayce^ | caldo de cana... wow, there's some memories |
| 20:49.10 | Jayce^ | hans, literally, yes |
| 20:51.52 | sjansen | Jayce^: with lime, of course |
| 20:52.12 | hans | ~mock los brasileros |
| 20:52.13 | ibot | ACTION pulls los brasileros's pants down and shows the world los brasileros's pink spotted underwear |
| 20:52.13 | Jayce^ | what was that wierd grasslike herb they would boil in it during festa juninha |
| 20:52.43 | Jayce^ | los? strange accent there hans... :) |
| 20:54.23 | hans | probably something stupid like brasileno or something. I like brasilero better |
| 21:01.30 | mheath | sjansen: could you answer a question about RMI? |
| 21:02.58 | sjansen | mheath: nope |
| 21:03.49 | sjansen | no because I'm a bitter old man (which I may be), but because I long ago garbage collected nearly all my Java knowledge |
| 21:04.37 | hans | curmudgeon is the right word I think |
| 21:05.09 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:06.45 | vontrapp | akc! |
| 21:07.27 | vontrapp | it wants to upgrade libc6!! |
| 21:07.35 | vontrapp | it's going to die i'm sure |
| 21:07.47 | vontrapp | why does ubuntu have to be old? |
| 21:08.06 | hans | vontrapp: ironically, precisely because it wants to be new |
| 21:09.32 | vontrapp | i've avoided the libc upgrade for some time now, forgoing many wanted things |
| 21:09.41 | vontrapp | but it slipped by me this time |
| 21:09.52 | hans | what's wrong with upgrading libc? |
| 21:10.01 | sjansen | vontrapp: don't worry, I survived the upgrade |
| 21:10.04 | vontrapp | because it's not the ubuntu libc |
| 21:10.11 | hans | ah. |
| 21:10.16 | vontrapp | then the debian mixage just escalates wildly from there |
| 21:10.22 | sjansen | oh, that's different |
| 21:10.25 | vontrapp | and before long i'll be in the pits |
| 21:10.51 | sjansen | that's why I moved to breezy, to escape a debian libc gone bad |
| 21:11.17 | vontrapp | well, when the whole thing comes crashing down, i'll just install breezy |
| 21:11.46 | vontrapp | yay! that did do the trick, however :/ |
| 21:12.14 | sjansen | *sigh* The code is doing exactly what I want. I just don't remember why anymore. |
| 21:13.46 | hans | sjansen: it's doing what you want because you wrote it to do what you want. computers are nice that way - always doing exactly as they're told. |
| 21:14.49 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@hemlock.cs.byu.edu) |
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| 21:26.23 | JoshH | i got burned by a bad libstdc++ upgrade in sid a few weeks ago |
| 21:27.00 | JoshH | still not enough to make me want to switch to ubuntu though... everyone is telling me to, but i keep fighting them off. |
| 21:28.20 | sjansen | ~force JoshH to use Ubuntu |
| 21:28.24 | vontrapp | JoshH: my situation is... unique, i run ubuntu, but i put debian testing in my sources for the inevitable thing i will want every month that's not in ubuntu |
| 21:28.50 | sjansen | vontrapp: I'd tell you that's a bad idea, but no doubt you already know it. |
| 21:28.56 | vontrapp | ;) |
| 21:29.22 | JoshH | i didnt have the same problem on my home machine, but ive been running etch on my work machine since then |
| 21:31.32 | Goshen | I like Mandriva, its pretty :) |
| 21:34.18 | graphyx | Ok here is someone with more than enough time on their hands. |
| 21:34.18 | graphyx | http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm |
| 21:34.20 | brac | [USB Floppy Disk Drive RAID] |
| 21:36.34 | goozbach | sjansen, I wasn't dismissing Idaho Falls... I was considering it as I've never been there before |
| 21:38.34 | sjansen | graphyx: nobody posting random links to IRC should ever accuse another person of having "more than enough time on their hands" |
| 21:41.10 | sjansen | http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18825205.800 |
| 21:41.12 | brac | [New Scientist Technology - Shock tactics to destroy torpedoes] |
| 21:41.59 | jnbek | how long is that meeting for PLUG usually take? |
| 21:43.38 | sjansen | navy: "we could use sound waves to block torpedoes" environmentalist: "but you might hurt whales" navy: "no comment" (what the navy really wanted to say: "you stupid moron, explosives are coming at us at high speed and all you can think about is whales?!") |
| 21:44.04 | sjansen | jnbek: *shrug* until everyone one leaves |
| 21:44.14 | jnbek | on average ?? :P |
| 21:44.30 | sjansen | jnbek: usually by about 9pm people start leaving |
| 21:44.41 | jnbek | k, thx |
| 21:44.57 | jnbek | if i can sneak past the wife, i may be there |
| 21:55.26 | mrpull- | what is the perlmongers topic tonight? |
| 21:58.57 | sjansen | yak shaving on a shoe string |
| 22:01.30 | *** join/#utah Vale (n=sjk36@instruments.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:01.43 | Vale | ~lart maquis |
| 22:06.29 | mrpull- | i don't understand the need to watch video on an ipod |
| 22:06.50 | hans | mrpull-: you obviously don't have enough spare cash |
| 22:07.03 | goozbach | yeah, what IS the PM meeting on tonight? |
| 22:07.08 | mrpull- | heh... my toy budget got blown when I bought a black nano |
| 22:07.42 | goozbach | you mean the scratch attractor? |
| 22:08.52 | mrpull- | given the choice... watch video on my phone, ipod, pda, laptop, 20 in LCD monitor, 32 TV, or Projector |
| 22:09.05 | mrpull- | why would I choose a postage stamp size ipod? |
| 22:09.23 | mrpull- | goozbach: i've got a scratch right below the screen that I pretend doesn't bother me |
| 22:10.03 | mrpull- | i vowed not to get uptight and buy a case and baby it.... it is a toy |
| 22:13.48 | hans | mrpull make yourself a case out of cordurouy or something |
| 22:13.52 | hans | -spell cordorouy |
| 22:13.52 | brac | cordorouy: no suggestions |
| 22:13.58 | hans | -spell corderoy |
| 22:13.59 | brac | corderoy: corduroy |
| 22:14.03 | goozbach | yet it's eating you up inside isn't it? |
| 22:18.40 | goozbach | http://www.dafont.com/top.php |
| 22:18.42 | brac | [Top 100 des téléchargements de polices | dafont.com] |
| 22:19.19 | goozbach | opps french version |
| 22:19.54 | goozbach | http://www.dafont.com/en/top.php |
| 22:19.56 | brac | [Top 100 font downloads | dafont.com] |
| 22:20.44 | hans | -lart goozbach |
| 22:21.33 | hans | I can see the headline now. "cool fonts, synonymous with dancing bunnies, cause total destruction of human race by computer virus" |
| 22:22.51 | goozbach | ohh sweet sheets |
| 22:23.21 | jnbek | hehe, i've seen some good 404's before but this takes the cake: http://www.wpalmer.net/404.htm |
| 22:23.28 | brac | [Links] |
| 22:24.42 | goozbach | sweet!!! http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051012/od_nm/life_caves_dc;_ylt=Aj6Zpys7HijZFaeYKHqGsj4SH9EA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl |
| 22:24.43 | brac | [You want a smoking or non-smoking cave? - Yahoo! News] |
| 22:25.37 | Vale | anybody know what a user and process called nscd is? |
| 22:25.57 | goozbach | I think I'll go to Idaho after all. |
| 22:26.02 | goozbach | sleeping in a cave!!! |
| 22:26.05 | goozbach | right on! |
| 22:30.08 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) |
| 22:30.26 | hans | jnbek: why, because it takes 10 minutes to download? |
| 22:30.40 | tensai | Vale: name service caching daemon. caches things like users, groups, hosts, services. |
| 22:30.51 | tensai | Vale: very useful if you're using ldap-enabled pam |
| 22:31.23 | hans | also can be a bit frustrating if you're using ldap-enabled PAM, if you don't know it's there. :) |
| 22:31.36 | hans | as can any cache |
| 22:32.16 | xbmodder_lappy | The iPod video is dumb |
| 22:32.23 | hans | goozbach: that looks sweet. and affordable! |
| 22:32.34 | hans | tough luck for the foreigners though, eh? |
| 22:36.56 | sjansen | anyone who doesn't understand the ipod video doesn't do much flying |
| 22:37.45 | Jayce^ | or have kids |
| 22:37.59 | Vale | tensai: thanks, nscd been using the balance of my processor power for a while now. |
| 22:38.29 | tensai | Vale: kill it and restart. you may not even need it. |
| 22:38.41 | tensai | restart nscd, that is. |
| 22:39.56 | tensai | I have problems with nscd dying once in a while. I just added a process watchdog to start it up again. |
| 22:41.21 | sjansen | probably not, network connections and all that |
| 22:47.02 | Vale | it's a BYU cs machine |
| 22:53.52 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (n=sjk36@instruments.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:55.12 | mheath | Unix is installing! :) |
| 22:56.57 | xbmodder_lappy | Unix? |
| 22:57.13 | xbmodder_lappy | isn't a AT&T thing?" |
| 22:57.17 | xbmodder_lappy | ~unix |
| 22:57.19 | ibot | from memory, unix is A lot like DOS, but a MUCH more powerful operating system. It was developed at Bell Labs and is now being developed by many other corporations. It is mainly used as a multi-user server for mainframes, although companies like Novell offer it for the desktop market as well. not at all like dos beyond the superficial similarities in the command ... |
| 22:57.39 | mheath | ~lart whoever it was that said UNIX was like DOS |
| 22:58.17 | mheath | xbmodder: UNIX is a trademark of The Open Group, Inc. |
| 22:58.42 | mheath | Solaris and others are UNIX operating systems. |
| 22:58.49 | mheath | I'm currently installing Solaris :) |
| 23:14.23 | hans | does slurpd retry rejects periodically? |
| 23:16.06 | goozbach | Jack Thompson is my new hero! |
| 23:16.40 | JoshH | they just had a pretty good time making fun of jack thompson on G4 |
| 23:20.08 | sjansen | hans: I don't believe so. |
| 23:20.27 | sjansen | It's been awhile, but I remember being unimpressed by slurpd's error recovery. |