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| 00:02.34 | sjansen | well, that was a giant pain |
| 00:02.43 | goozbach | what? |
| 00:02.48 | sjansen | missed my turn and spent half an hour lost in downtown pittsburgh |
| 00:02.55 | goozbach | ha ha |
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| 00:53.16 | goozbach | boring... |
| 00:53.54 | goozbach | just make sure there aren't any cameras around |
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| 01:02.07 | goozbach | opps musta caught JoshH's connection. |
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| 03:06.16 | ECS | ~lart Maquis |
| 03:08.28 | maquis | ~flog ECS |
| 03:08.30 | ibot | ACTION hog-ties ECS and starts the heavy punishment with a cat-o-nine-tails. |
| 03:23.40 | hans | i like how robertos comment gets 10 different answers |
| 03:23.50 | hans | and each answer exposes the bias of the answerere |
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| 03:39.23 | levi | Hmmm, iPod Nano. |
| 03:42.08 | mheath | Mmmm, GNU Nano. |
| 03:44.11 | levi | Ew. That's a pico clone. |
| 03:46.26 | mheath | pico? |
| 03:47.35 | mheath | Oh, yeah |
| 03:48.02 | mheath | Sorry, pico is a shortened name of a sauce we use at work, that I have to ask for quite often. My mind just wasn't connecting "pico" with the computer program |
| 03:58.12 | levi | Heh. |
| 03:59.43 | levi | This is cool: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/users/tkohno/papers/PDF/ |
| 04:00.30 | hans | what's good about the ipod nano? everyone will want one, and maybe everyone will try to sell their ipods on ebay at the same time, and I can get one for super cheap |
| 04:00.58 | levi | hans: It's tiny! |
| 04:01.03 | levi | hans: And color! |
| 04:01.08 | hans | it's insanely cool |
| 04:01.51 | levi | I listened to the latest staccato podcast tonight. |
| 04:02.02 | hans | cool, huh? |
| 04:02.08 | levi | Not too keen on the guy's interview style, but some of the music was nifty. |
| 04:02.09 | hans | the hip hop stuff was... hip hop |
| 04:02.19 | hans | the first song I really liked |
| 04:02.23 | hans | and the one about the laptop |
| 04:02.24 | levi | I liked the German hip-hop. |
| 04:03.01 | levi | And the remix one was decent, but the party one was annoying. |
| 04:04.41 | levi | I really enjoyed the first of the 'country' ones. |
| 04:04.53 | hans | that wasn't country, in the derogative sense |
| 04:05.02 | hans | they were ok, actually |
| 04:05.16 | hans | i liked them better than the hiphop anyway |
| 04:05.31 | levi | I don't consider country derogatory anymore, now that I've heard enough good country music. |
| 04:05.38 | hans | ok, how can anyone justify $17 for shipping an iriver |
| 04:05.43 | levi | Yow. |
| 04:05.55 | hans | the whole shipping scam on ebay really disgusts me |
| 04:05.57 | levi | Neko Case has some killer country music. |
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| 04:06.09 | hans | you'd think ebay would crack down on it somehow |
| 04:06.18 | hans | since it's their cut that's being minimizeed |
| 04:07.09 | hans | and put the shipping cost in the listings |
| 04:07.21 | hans | in fact, I'd bet that would cut down on the shipping fiasco |
| 04:07.30 | levi | It's probably not worth it for them to police it. |
| 04:07.50 | levi | At least not manually. |
| 04:07.59 | hans | yeah, but if they just changed it to add that to the total in the listing, then most of the incentive goes away |
| 04:08.22 | hans | then the only incentive for extreme shipping costs is to save a buck or two from ebay |
| 04:09.54 | levi | hans: You should sign up for an emusic trial and download Neko Case's albums. |
| 04:24.48 | levi | hans: Another band that I have to recommend to everyone is Hem. They're kind of a folksy band, but really good. I'd never heard of them before I saw them open for Beth Orton at a club downtown, and I ran to buy a CD as soon as their set was over. |
| 04:26.11 | hans | does anyone have dr. who episode 3 (first season)? i'm at 91% and would like to watch it tonight, but the torrent is dry and my brother's on OCT which apparently saturates in the evening. (2KB/s download speeds) |
| 04:26.16 | hans | ~lart vontrapp |
| 04:26.30 | levi | Sorry, haven't got any Dr Who |
| 04:27.03 | hans | ~lart jakea for not being here |
| 04:27.13 | hans | oh, now it's down to 1KB/s |
| 14:24.14 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 14:24.14 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feed | BYU Installfest --- September 10. See uug.byu.edu for more information | Get Jeff Waugh to come to utah. Send an email with name to TuxGirl@gmail.com or Stuporglue@gmail.com to sign the petition! |
| 14:24.14 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
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| 14:41.06 | hans | 3.4 * 1024 * 1024 / (8 * 60* 60) |
| 14:41.50 | vontrapp | $answer |
| 14:43.15 | hans | heh, oops |
| 14:43.24 | hans | middle button. that was a bandwidth calculation last night |
| 14:43.40 | hans | aka the bandwidth you were _not_ getting out of your apartment, vontrapp |
| 14:44.13 | hans | interestingly it looks like it has been going a steady 45KB/s since sometime in the middle of the night |
| 14:44.15 | vontrapp | :-[ |
| 14:44.34 | vontrapp | :-p that was supposed to be |
| 14:44.39 | hans | i'm betting even college students wouldn't be legimitately sucking that much bandwidth |
| 14:44.45 | hans | more likely viruses galore |
| 14:44.54 | hans | OCT should block them. you should burn their offices down. |
| 14:45.24 | vontrapp | yah, everyone comes home from school and about 8:00-9:00 decides they should write that paper, up come all the virus laden computers until the wee hours of the night |
| 14:45.51 | hans | is oct the only net you can get there? |
| 14:45.57 | vontrapp | yep |
| 14:46.05 | hans | you can't get dsl? |
| 14:46.24 | vontrapp | maybe i *could* but i pay for oct anyway, whether i use it or not |
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| 14:46.40 | hans | well, there's a word for that |
| 14:46.42 | tensai | I'm sure you could get dsl but you'd have to get a new line |
| 14:47.06 | vontrapp | retarded? |
| 14:47.12 | hans | also, bonding |
| 14:47.38 | hans | or whatever the real word is. but I think you should be able to use both to get more bandwidth |
| 14:47.51 | hans | (not necessarily on a per-connection basis, obviously) |
| 14:48.34 | hans | can you see wyview from your window? |
| 14:48.42 | vontrapp | no |
| 14:48.50 | vontrapp | i'm on the backside of raintree |
| 14:49.06 | hans | too bad. they get really good bandwidth for like $12/mo, maybe you could set up a wireless ptp connection |
| 14:49.44 | vontrapp | yeah, i remember that crazy bandwidth |
| 14:49.58 | hans | you could always start up a wireless OCT competitor |
| 14:50.51 | vontrapp | like oct will care, they still get thier money with less people using thier service |
| 14:51.13 | hans | true, but the point is you would get their money too. :) |
| 14:51.22 | vontrapp | but at least I could get paid, but i'm not that ambitious |
| 14:51.30 | hans | it would take some capital, yes |
| 14:51.40 | hans | and there's always the virus headache |
| 14:51.57 | hans | but, if you got DSL you could probably get a couple of nearby neighbors that would go in with you |
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| 14:58.59 | vontrapp | i think part of the problem is probably due to their 'public ip' service |
| 14:59.25 | vontrapp | anyone can get a public ip, and by so doing increase their bandwidth by magnitudes |
| 14:59.55 | vontrapp | so everyone wants a public ip, so everyone is then open to the big bad internet directly |
| 15:00.15 | vontrapp | if they'd just put some more bandwidth on the regular service |
| 15:02.52 | tensai | not so long ago "regular service" always included a public IP address. It's sad that NAT has gotten so widely deployed as that. |
| 15:04.47 | vontrapp | i'm not so keen on nat as protection myself, but if it puts a layer between hordes of uneducated windows users and viruses that make my life miserable through them, then ok |
| 15:05.40 | vontrapp | also, the fact of the matter is ip addresses are limited, so handing them out for the sole purpose of more bandwidth because of some dumb service rules... |
| 15:06.18 | vontrapp | oct actually ran out of public addresses a couple months ago, fortunately i already had one and was just renewing it |
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| 15:09.19 | tensai | ip addresses are getting scarce, true. that should be incentive to move to ipv6, but unfortunately nobody will let go. still, they're not all gone and oct should be able to get more from arin. |
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| 15:15.15 | levi | Heh, why no gentoo installs at the uug installfest?! ;) |
| 15:17.36 | vontrapp | can anyone resolve thinkgreen.cp? |
| 15:17.43 | vontrapp | ~nslookup thinkgreen.cp |
| 15:18.29 | tensai | I don't think .cp is a valid tld |
| 15:19.41 | tensai | it's not a cctld http://www.iana.org/cctld/cctld-whois.htm |
| 15:20.04 | tensai | and it's not one of icann's stupid new tlds http://www.icann.org/tlds/ |
| 15:22.59 | tensai | thinkgreen.ch and thinkgreen.cx both resolve. typo maybe? |
| 15:25.03 | Bradipo | tensai: It could be part of an alternate root. |
| 15:25.14 | vontrapp | it's a link in an email |
| 15:25.21 | Bradipo | Just because Internic doesn't have a .cp doesn't mean others cannot. |
| 15:25.23 | tensai | Bradipo: ah, hadn't thought of that |
| 15:26.43 | tensai | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root doesn't list .cp |
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| 15:27.20 | Bradipo | It could be a hidden root. |
| 15:27.28 | Bradipo | That only the targetted audience knows about. |
| 15:27.37 | Bradipo | Or is using. |
| 15:27.44 | *** part/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 15:28.16 | tensai | vontrapp: was this email a spam or virus? |
| 15:28.34 | vontrapp | no, something i ordered, got returned and the link was to verify the address |
| 15:28.57 | Bradipo | lol. |
| 15:29.08 | Bradipo | To verify your emial address? |
| 15:29.31 | vontrapp | not going to worry about it to much because the email informed me i'll be refunded automatically on non-response |
| 15:29.41 | vontrapp | Bradipo: shipping address |
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| 15:46.58 | vontrapp | mrpull-lt: less than what? |
| 15:47.29 | vontrapp | lesser than ezra? |
| 15:49.06 | mrpull-lt | heh....less than laptop |
| 15:54.03 | vontrapp | dangit thinkgeek, free acrobots with order over $50, two weeks after i ordered a bunch |
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| 16:16.33 | Bradipo | I guess password protection on an .xls isn't so great. I was able to use strings to view the contents. Not only that, but gnumeric opened it without even asking for a password. :-) |
| 16:19.18 | levi | Heh. |
| 16:20.08 | tensai | ssshhh. don't let the PHBs know. |
| 16:21.02 | graphyx | BradIpo nice. |
| 16:29.43 | sjansen | welcome back, ibot |
| 16:29.46 | sjansen | ~botsnack |
| 16:29.46 | ibot | aw, gee, sjansen |
| 16:33.33 | sjansen | ibot, insane is crazy, cuckoo, batty, wacky, nutters |
| 16:33.35 | ibot | ...but insane is already something else... |
| 16:33.41 | sjansen | ~insane |
| 16:33.43 | ibot | *fuh* *twitch* *thhipptt* |
| 16:33.53 | sjansen | ibot, no insane is crazy, cuckoo, batty, wacky, nutters |
| 16:33.54 | ibot | okay, sjansen |
| 16:33.59 | sjansen | ibot, insane is also Debian's bureaucracy |
| 16:34.02 | ibot | okay, sjansen |
| 16:34.07 | sjansen | ~insane |
| 16:34.08 | ibot | insane is, like, crazy, cuckoo, batty, wacky, nutters. Debian's bureaucracy |
| 16:35.11 | vontrapp | ~insane is also sjansen |
| 16:35.13 | ibot | vontrapp: okay |
| 16:37.04 | graphyx | ~insane |
| 16:37.05 | ibot | i heard insane is crazy, cuckoo, batty, wacky, nutters. Debian's bureaucracy, or sjansen |
| 16:39.02 | hans | i wouldn't be too surprised if it's not encrypted at all, but merely ~sjansen |
| 16:39.23 | hans | relies on the application honoring the password protection |
| 16:39.24 | Bradipo | Well, don't take my word on it. |
| 16:39.28 | hans | odd, how did sjansen get in there |
| 16:39.31 | Bradipo | I was told it had a password... |
| 16:39.47 | Bradipo | I don't actually have Excel to test with. :-) |
| 16:44.50 | graphyx | Well if you really wanted to you could send it to me and I could check it. |
| 16:45.19 | tensai | I can confirm that gnumeric will open them without a password |
| 16:45.45 | graphyx | but only if it is financial data... ;) |
| 16:46.40 | sjansen | I can confirm that the Fugal clan are cult leaders bent on world domination. |
| 16:47.43 | graphyx | what is hans's brother's handle? |
| 16:48.10 | tensai | vontrapp and lukfugl |
| 16:48.19 | graphyx | K thanks. |
| 16:48.29 | graphyx | I haven't actually met him, but I do know hans. |
| 16:50.04 | sjansen | them |
| 16:50.32 | sjansen | There's a small army of Fugals, although I've only met four (that I can remember). |
| 16:51.12 | sjansen | They're aligned with the McNabbs and may be the secret king makers behind the rise of the mcnabb's to iron fisted rule of the UUG. |
| 16:51.48 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: I think somehow they're all decendants of the Handys |
| 16:52.41 | Uncle_Jesse | The Handys are tricky though - they don't make it evident they want to take over the world - they just do it anyway |
| 16:54.15 | sjansen | http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/iguide-ipsec.html |
| 16:54.37 | goozbach | hah |
| 16:54.49 | goozbach | I'll have to tell mike |
| 16:57.42 | hans | sjansen: hey that looks neat |
| 16:57.53 | hans | I don't have time to actually read it now - is it well-written? |
| 16:59.05 | sjansen | reading it right now, seems to be pretty good so far |
| 16:59.17 | hans | nice graphics, anyhow |
| 16:59.31 | hans | the ice cream is making me hungry though. wonder what flavor that olivedrab one is |
| 17:01.36 | levi | I'd bet pistachio. |
| 17:01.51 | vontrapp | too dark |
| 17:02.05 | hans | dude, this guy needs to win some sort of design award |
| 17:02.06 | hans | http://arts.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope/ |
| 17:02.08 | vontrapp | maybe it's olive |
| 17:02.18 | vontrapp | or zuccini |
| 17:02.28 | levi | You could color pistachio ice cream that dark if you wanted to. |
| 17:02.33 | hans | olive green chile zuchinni |
| 17:02.34 | vontrapp | the orange could be pumpkin pie, mmmm |
| 17:02.52 | vontrapp | eucelyptus |
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| 17:03.06 | hans | this one place in connecticut made all their ice cream fresh, and every fall they had a pumpkin ice cream that was incredibly good |
| 17:04.52 | levi | Mmmm. |
| 17:05.10 | sjansen | bah, I don't like Web sites that pretend to be printed documents |
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| 17:05.23 | sjansen | go with the flow, don't fight it |
| 17:05.41 | goozbach | hans: in hartford |
| 17:05.51 | goozbach | or a suburb thereof? |
| 17:06.09 | goozbach | methinks I've been there |
| 17:07.40 | tensai | sjansen: printed documents that pretend to be web pages are cool though. "Click here to read more" |
| 17:07.48 | vontrapp | it's fall right now! let's launch a culinary expedition! |
| 17:08.14 | levi | sjansen: What sort of sites that pretend to be printed documents? |
| 17:08.22 | vontrapp | tensai: the trick is getting the cursor on the paper |
| 17:08.34 | tensai | levi: the one hans pasted |
| 17:09.52 | vontrapp | maybe x2paper or something |
| 17:10.07 | levi | sjansen: You don't like the fixed-width layout? |
| 17:10.15 | vontrapp | he never has |
| 17:10.19 | levi | I'm a big fan of fixed-width layout. |
| 17:10.28 | vontrapp | i don't like it much either |
| 17:10.31 | tensai | down with fixed-width layout |
| 17:11.02 | levi | A well designed fixed-width layout looks better and is more readable. |
| 17:12.00 | levi | Expanding a document and having lines of text stretch all the way across the screen is annoying. |
| 17:12.16 | levi | Makes it much easier to lose your place in the text. |
| 17:12.21 | tensai | sjansen's link is a great example of a well done dynamic width layout |
| 17:12.57 | vontrapp | the ipsec one? |
| 17:13.01 | tensai | yes |
| 17:13.41 | mrpull- | Uncle_Jesse: why not just by the 4GB nano? |
| 17:13.46 | vontrapp | if you do fix a width, it should at least fix on a font-relative size, aka em |
| 17:13.47 | mrpull- | s/by/buy/ |
| 17:14.04 | Uncle_Jesse | mrpull-: because I already have a cellphone with a sd card slot |
| 17:14.22 | mrpull- | ahhh... I was thinking USB flash memory |
| 17:14.23 | bonez41 | live near Sandy? comfy with apache/mailman? |
| 17:14.32 | levi | I have nothing against well-done dynamic-width layouts either. |
| 17:14.51 | bonez41 | I'd be happy to treat you if you live close to Sandy and know your way around apache and hopefully Mailman too... |
| 17:15.53 | levi | But I like the visual appeal of a good static-width site. And since it's possible to do them well within web standards, why not? Not every site has to be bland, and stricter control over display can lead to better aesthetics. |
| 17:16.40 | levi | Anyway, time for lunch. Indian food! |
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| 17:18.12 | vontrapp | just keep in mind that someone may want to enlarge the font, and what can happen when they do |
| 17:18.30 | Uncle_Jesse | mrpull-: either way it means hopefully soon we'll see 4Gb flash USB and SD Cards |
| 17:19.19 | bonez41 | levi, is that laminite or Mumbai type indian food? |
| 17:19.25 | bonez41 | er...lamanite... |
| 17:22.54 | mrpull- | i've seen 4GB USB flash drives...but it was bigger than a nano :) |
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| 17:28.43 | graphyx | I enjoy my 40 gig 2.5" drive in an usb 2.0 enclosure. |
| 17:28.54 | graphyx | It a bit bigger than a thumbdrive, but it hold a bit more. |
| 17:29.18 | graphyx | it does draw a bit more power than a thumb drive as well. |
| 17:29.25 | graphyx | but you can get an outside powersource. |
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| 17:32.08 | emcnabb | my mp3/ogg player (iRiver H120) works as a USB mass storage device |
| 17:32.28 | emcnabb | it holds 20 GB, and doesn't need an external power supply |
| 17:33.38 | emcnabb | I have a 1GB flash drive for most stuff |
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| 17:47.48 | harleypig | What was that calendar project that novell is supporting? |
| 17:48.38 | RyanE | hula? |
| 17:49.27 | goozbach | yup |
| 17:49.45 | harleypig | thanks. |
| 17:49.54 | Uncle_Jesse | I didn't like it when I tried it |
| 17:50.03 | Uncle_Jesse | not that you asked for anyone's opinions or anything |
| 17:51.27 | Uncle_Jesse | emcnabb: I have the 1gb flash card and use that for my cell phone but it would be really nice to store all the songs I currently have on my ipod on my cellphone with a 4gb sd card |
| 17:52.38 | Uncle_Jesse | harleypig: did you ever get catalyst working like you wanted it to? |
| 17:53.20 | harleypig | No. Haven't had the time to really look at it since then. And CGI::Prototype looks like it might fit my thinking process more closely. |
| 17:53.53 | harleypig | But I'm still not clear on the implementation part of MVC. |
| 17:54.16 | Jayce^ | next months NUPM |
| 17:54.27 | Uncle_Jesse | Planning around it involves just a slightly different thought process, but I think promotes OSS development more |
| 17:54.46 | Uncle_Jesse | what does the NU stand for? |
| 17:55.15 | tensai | No Uncle_Jesses |
| 17:55.18 | Uncle_Jesse | lol |
| 17:55.30 | Uncle_Jesse | and what else? :-) |
| 17:56.53 | Uncle_Jesse | harleypig: if you can find a good JSP/Servlet book and/or J2EE book, the best tutorials on mvc I've seen have been from those |
| 17:58.34 | Uncle_Jesse | catalyst is just cool because it's key contributor's name is Jesse (and spelled right too) |
| 17:58.57 | Uncle_Jesse | s/it's/its/ |
| 17:59.08 | harleypig | Uncle_Jesse: NUPM Northern Utah Perl Mongers |
| 17:59.34 | Uncle_Jesse | harleypig: ahhh - rarely to I hear the northern utah term |
| 18:00.01 | Uncle_Jesse | Jayce^: how do I join the O'Reilly book review program for our local PM? |
| 18:00.51 | harleypig | Yeah, I've read some MVC tutorials from other languages, but it hasn't gelled. |
| 18:03.08 | Uncle_Jesse | yeah - I'm learning it takes some practice to figure out how to best split up each component so it only does it's function in the framework |
| 18:06.43 | Jayce^ | Uncle_Jesse, start writing them, get noticed.. |
| 18:10.54 | sjansen | there's actually a difference between fixed width layout |
| 18:11.08 | sjansen | and a Web page pretending to be a printed page |
| 18:11.29 | sjansen | fixed width layouts are appropriate when done correctly for exactly the reason levi stated |
| 18:11.31 | sjansen | they're easier to read |
| 18:11.48 | Uncle_Jesse | Jayce^: thanks - just wondering if there was some official form or something like that |
| 18:11.51 | sjansen | if you're going to do a dynamic layout, you have to take into consideration the problem of not getting too big |
| 18:12.17 | sjansen | but a broken browser *cough* IE *cough* makes that much harder than it should be |
| 18:12.42 | sjansen | dynamic layout should be as easy as maximum-width:120em |
| 18:12.52 | sjansen | ~lart IE |
| 18:14.18 | harleypig | shouldn't that BOOT TO THE HEAD |
| 18:16.45 | sjansen | ~rmlart says "boot to the head" and knocks $harleypig over |
| 18:16.59 | sjansen | Uncle_Jesse: to be fair, hula hasn't been finished yet |
| 18:17.09 | sjansen | but I'm curious what you didn't like about it |
| 18:17.21 | vontrapp | maquis: where's the booth? |
| 18:17.24 | sjansen | (haven't used it myself yet) |
| 18:18.49 | vontrapp | nm, i see it |
| 18:36.08 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: that's why I didn't like it |
| 18:36.47 | Uncle_Jesse | I also don't like that it's currently trying to take over your mta - I know that's changing though |
| 18:37.20 | Uncle_Jesse | I am eagerly awaiting being able to attach it to sendmail and dovecot |
| 18:37.35 | maquis | ~lart vontrapp |
| 18:37.49 | Uncle_Jesse | it has a beautiful interface for the end user however |
| 18:38.17 | Uncle_Jesse | I have yet to see a groupware app that looks as pretty and is free |
| 18:45.41 | Tene | So, I saw a car with the license plate "PERL-1" ahead of me in traffic yesterday. |
| 18:45.49 | Tene | Anyone known to this social group? |
| 18:47.06 | hans | probably some lady that likes perls |
| 18:47.07 | Jayce^ | think it's a verio guy |
| 18:47.28 | maquis | ~lart vim for being stupid about hl search |
| 18:54.15 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@128.187.130.167) |
| 18:55.32 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 18:56.30 | goozbach | ~timezone MO |
| 18:56.40 | goozbach | ~time MO |
| 18:56.42 | maquis | ~lart emcnabb |
| 19:11.58 | spr | So, I just learned that there are SCO branded usb drives :) |
| 19:13.06 | hans | hand at the level of your eyes |
| 19:13.33 | goozbach | hah! |
| 19:19.02 | maquis | hans: no kidding |
| 19:19.10 | maquis | ~hug phantom of the opera |
| 19:19.11 | ibot | ACTION hugs phantom of the opera |
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| 19:36.35 | *** join/#utah bucky (n=bucky@pdpc/supporter/active/bucky) |
| 19:38.14 | hans | o/~ The phaaaaaantom of the #utah is there, inside your lart |
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| 19:55.42 | hans | heh, wencor's engineers are telling IT how to do their job. in particular they seem to think DHCP is evil |
| 19:55.59 | maquis | hans: didn't you know that? |
| 19:56.17 | hans | nope. missed that memo |
| 19:56.51 | Jayce^ | umm, yeah... didnt' you get the memo? |
| 19:57.06 | Jayce^ | umm, I'll send you another copy of the memo... yeah.. |
| 19:57.06 | tensai | hans: any particular reason they have? |
| 19:57.46 | hans | ok, evil was a strong word. they don't want us to use dhcp so that they can "fix their own issues" which they can't do now because of DHCP... or something. this is all second hand. |
| 19:58.01 | hans | engineers are funny |
| 19:59.03 | hans | and their sisteers. my aunt isn't an engineer, but she's more engineer-like than anyone I've met, when it comes to computers. |
| 19:59.42 | hans | i should say EEs are often exempt from this behavior |
| 19:59.44 | hans | although not always |
| 19:59.50 | tensai | so remove some ips from the dhcp pool and let the engineers break stuff^W^W use that range |
| 20:04.05 | levi | hans: Who are you referring to as engineers, if not EE-types? |
| 20:04.20 | levi | hans: Certainly not IT types, I hope! |
| 20:06.03 | hans | civil engineers, airplane-part-building engineers, etc. |
| 20:07.24 | levi | So, after about an hour of trying to help my coworker debug some complicated C macros, we realized that he was trying to perform preprocessor-time arithmetic on runtime data so he could insert a number into a nested macro expansion. |
| 20:09.12 | hans | did you hit him upside the head at that point? |
| 20:09.40 | graphyx | levi: I didn't understand most of that sentence. |
| 20:09.42 | sjansen | You haven't noticed yet that technical people think they are masters of all things technical? |
| 20:10.07 | sjansen | Programmers are the worst when it comes to questioning IT. |
| 20:10.27 | levi | I gently explained that not only could the macro system not possibly have any idea how to get a numeric value out of that variable, but it didn't do arithmetic at all, and the reason his previous macros worked is because the arithmetic was performed at runtime. |
| 20:10.31 | sjansen | graphyx: And that is why you fail! |
| 20:11.19 | sjansen | maquis: Le Miz is infinitely better than Phantom |
| 20:12.11 | levi | graphyx: Basically two issues: meta-programming and C's insanely stupid macro system. |
| 20:12.59 | maquis | sjansen: i still havne't had the opportunity to see le miz |
| 20:13.01 | levi | I figure the stupid macro system had to be intentional, to discourage metaprogramming. |
| 20:13.04 | maquis | but i did get to see phantom |
| 20:13.11 | levi | They're both good. |
| 20:13.23 | levi | (Les Mis and Phantom) |
| 20:13.37 | levi | (also Metaprogramming and Macros, if implemented well) |
| 20:14.46 | hans | agreed. on the metaprogramming and macros anyway |
| 20:14.49 | bucky | it's just that ken and den have sick senses of humor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie |
| 20:15.48 | sjansen | maquis: not see, read |
| 20:16.07 | hans | the phantom book was certainly better than the musical |
| 20:16.15 | sjansen | levi: no need to develop conspiracy where it doesn't exist |
| 20:16.19 | hans | haven't gathered the gumption to read les miz |
| 20:16.39 | bucky | Antonio Banderas is believable as a latin Phantom |
| 20:16.47 | sjansen | the C macro system was just incredibly easier to implement |
| 20:17.17 | hans | how does the quote go, something like don't attribute malice where stupidity can explain it? |
| 20:17.54 | *** part/#utah harleypig (n=Clint@65.73.113.162) |
| 20:18.28 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@70.98.251.29) |
| 20:19.25 | tensai | Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity |
| 20:19.31 | tensai | http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_J._Hanlon |
| 20:19.34 | hans | or was it incompetence |
| 20:21.22 | maquis | sjansen: the book is insanely long |
| 20:24.44 | levi | Interestingly enough, Dennis Ritchie's favorite language is not C. It is Aleph, which is lexically similar to C, but has a much more sane type system and execution model. |
| 20:25.10 | levi | Though Aleph is now pretty much dead. |
| 20:33.45 | sjansen | maquis: it's not like your time is already committed to something else |
| 20:33.58 | sjansen | now if you had a real job... |
| 20:35.37 | maquis | sjansen: i had more free time when i had a real job than i do now |
| 20:36.04 | sjansen | suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure |
| 20:36.43 | sjansen | Would somebody just hurry up and buy Skype or kill it so I don't have to keep reading "X Planning to Buy Skype" announcements? |
| 20:37.29 | maquis | sjansen: i'm not joking |
| 20:37.31 | maquis | i had evenings |
| 20:37.34 | maquis | i was able to go to bed |
| 20:37.36 | maquis | it was nice |
| 20:37.40 | maquis | i got sleep |
| 20:51.16 | *** join/#utah hagna (n=me@67.50.46.118) |
| 20:51.26 | hagna | what is a good bandwidth limiter |
| 20:51.33 | hagna | a good software one |
| 20:51.58 | byronc | hagna: have you tried trickle? |
| 20:52.19 | hagna | I have tried it before, does it just do tcp? |
| 20:53.44 | byronc | hagna: yep, only tcp |
| 20:55.06 | hagna | there is a shaper module |
| 20:55.08 | hagna | hmmm |
| 20:57.10 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:57.38 | hagna | how optimistic |
| 20:57.59 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:58.14 | levi | sjansen: You're doomed. Be prepared to gnaw on your arm for sustenance. |
| 20:58.18 | maquis | ~lart sjansen |
| 20:58.23 | hagna | :120 |
| 20:58.25 | hagna | 1:20 |
| 20:58.28 | sjansen | thanks ibot! |
| 20:58.40 | hagna | :59 |
| 20:58.43 | maquis | see... |
| 20:58.50 | maquis | ibot's willing to share |
| 20:58.51 | graphyx | ~time |
| 20:58.53 | ibot | You are educated stupid and therefore too dumb to understand nature's perfect time cube! |
| 20:58.58 | sjansen | ~date |
| 20:58.59 | ibot | Thu Sep 8 20:58:59 2005 |
| 20:59.27 | levi | Hah, the Time Cube guy. |
| 20:59.37 | levi | Best Crackpot Ever. |
| 21:02.05 | levi | maquis: Whoops! |
| 21:03.30 | maquis | levi: ummm |
| 21:03.32 | maquis | yeah |
| 21:03.37 | maquis | it's not doing any of it right |
| 21:03.45 | levi | I blame it on C! |
| 21:03.56 | sjansen | I blame OIT! |
| 21:03.59 | levi | maquis: It's not your fault, you're just a victim of your tools. |
| 21:04.02 | maquis | but it's passing the tests without difficulty |
| 21:04.19 | levi | Obviously C has spoiled your tests as well. |
| 21:07.37 | levi | maquis: Are you optimizing via a lookup table, or doing all the calculations? |
| 21:08.07 | maquis | levi: we're using a lookup for the subbytes method.... |
| 21:11.18 | levi | You have to use a lookup of some sort for that one, but you can also pre-compute ShiftRows and MixColumns. |
| 21:12.39 | maquis | levi: we're just computing those |
| 21:12.45 | maquis | i've got test functions for those, though |
| 21:12.54 | maquis | and thoes are passing without difficulty |
| 21:14.57 | graphyx | maquis: One of the basic definitions of a good cryptographic protocol is the diffusion of the data. a one bit change in the key should result in an alteration of half of the output bits. So just because the output doesn't look a thing like it should doesn't mean that you are very far from having it correct. |
| 21:16.08 | maquis | graphyx: yeah... i know |
| 21:16.31 | maquis | i'm checking at each round, though, and the first round isn't close... and it only performs one operation (which by itself, is passing the test function |
| 21:16.45 | maquis | i'm going to check and make sure i didn't mistype the input |
| 21:17.14 | graphyx | So you have a round by round comparison of the protocols internal stages? |
| 21:17.19 | graphyx | very useful. |
| 21:17.19 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:17.50 | graphyx | sjansen: What labs are you doing? |
| 21:17.59 | maquis | graphyx: AES |
| 21:18.06 | graphyx | you are a TA? |
| 21:18.08 | maquis | not sure what else we're doing |
| 21:18.15 | maquis | we're using the FIPS specification |
| 21:18.18 | maquis | nope... not a TA |
| 21:18.24 | graphyx | I mean Sjansen. |
| 21:18.26 | sjansen | graphyx: vim and regular expressions right now |
| 21:18.39 | graphyx | sjansen: are you a TA? |
| 21:18.41 | maquis | sjansen is a redhat instructor |
| 21:18.46 | graphyx | goctha. |
| 21:18.50 | graphyx | I was wondering. |
| 21:19.00 | graphyx | sounded suspiciously like he was still back at BYU. |
| 21:19.11 | graphyx | while I knew he was gradjimnated. |
| 21:22.31 | maquis | @#$#$#&^%&$%&^%^& |
| 21:22.43 | maquis | *sniff* |
| 21:24.17 | graphyx | was that the output of the function? |
| 21:24.49 | maquis | graphyx: no |
| 21:24.59 | levi | sjansen: The mini or the nano? |
| 21:25.04 | maquis | i'm just annoyed because i can't figure out what's causing this compile error |
| 21:25.19 | maquis | ok... |
| 21:25.21 | maquis | here's a question |
| 21:25.23 | graphyx | probably bad syntax. |
| 21:25.24 | levi | maquis: What compile error? |
| 21:25.25 | maquis | and it's probably a stupid question |
| 21:25.37 | graphyx | but that is just a guess. |
| 21:25.51 | maquis | i've already defined byte state[4][4] = {....} |
| 21:25.52 | maquis | etc |
| 21:25.54 | maquis | and run on it |
| 21:26.01 | maquis | then, i want to change what it has, and so i did: |
| 21:26.13 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.14 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.14 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.14 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.14 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.16 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.21 | levi | Oops. |
| 21:26.27 | maquis | is that not a correct way to do it? |
| 21:26.34 | levi | You attempted to modify static data! |
| 21:26.54 | maquis | levi: why is it static? |
| 21:26.55 | byronc | maquis: state = {stuff} should do the trick |
| 21:27.02 | sjansen | oops, nano |
| 21:27.35 | maquis | aes.c:525: warning: excess elements in scalar initializer |
| 21:27.36 | maquis | aes.c:525: warning: (near initialization for `key') |
| 21:27.47 | maquis | (key is another array i have that i'm trying to reset |
| 21:30.28 | sjansen | I was already thinking about getting a Airport Extreme. Now I'm thinking about the iPod Nano too... haven't I learned my lesson? |
| 21:30.49 | levi | maquis: Maybe the problem I was thinking of is only an issue with string literals. |
| 21:31.23 | levi | sjansen: Hey, if Macs are not for you, don't get one. Don't want to hear your whining afterward. ;) |
| 21:32.03 | levi | maquis: If you're initializing it where you define it, you don't have to explicitly specify the size. |
| 21:32.05 | sjansen | but, but, but... |
| 21:35.34 | hans | hagna: did you find what you were looking for? |
| 21:36.07 | levi | maquis: I don't think you can use the {} initialization syntax for assignment to arrays, either. |
| 21:36.10 | hans | my prof just gave me 12 issues of Computer Music Journal to read through |
| 21:36.50 | maquis | #$%# |
| 21:36.55 | hans | is that perl? |
| 21:36.57 | maquis | well... it's compiling now |
| 21:37.21 | levi | hans: She's using C |
| 21:37.26 | hans | :) |
| 21:37.43 | hans | I don't think you realize the levity of the situation. CMJ subscription is like $70/year |
| 21:37.52 | hans | for 4 issues annually |
| 21:37.55 | levi | hans: Oooh, nice. |
| 21:38.08 | levi | hans: Or, it's free from the library! ;) |
| 21:38.17 | hans | yeah, but what library carries CMJ |
| 21:38.26 | levi | A good one? |
| 21:38.29 | hans | not one in utah valley, I checked |
| 21:38.42 | hans | yes, a good one at a university that does computer music |
| 21:38.48 | levi | Well, good thing you're not in Utah Valley anymore! |
| 21:38.52 | hagna | hans: huh? the traffic shaper? |
| 21:38.52 | hans | or a good professor with an interest in computer music. :) |
| 21:39.00 | hans | hagna: yah. |
| 21:39.40 | hagna | hans: erm no not yet I'm looking at tcng iptables iproute2 |
| 21:39.50 | hans | what exactly do you need to do? |
| 21:40.06 | hagna | hans: look here process you may only take 10Mbits/s |
| 21:40.19 | hagna | that |
| 21:40.36 | hans | is it ok to decide on protocol, e.g. which port? |
| 21:40.51 | sjansen | levi: not sure what you mean by I don't think you can use the {} initialization syntax for assignment to arrays, either. |
| 21:40.55 | hagna | hans: probably not |
| 21:41.04 | sjansen | but if you mean what I think you mean, you're wrong |
| 21:41.10 | hagna | hans: more like any traffic to the network ard |
| 21:41.11 | hagna | card |
| 21:41.19 | hans | oh, by card is even easier. :) |
| 21:41.29 | hagna | err I mean no |
| 21:41.31 | hagna | by process |
| 21:41.53 | hagna | I was trying to say any protocol any port from a process |
| 21:41.58 | hans | so you just want to pick an arbitrary process and limit its bandwidth? |
| 21:42.06 | hans | hmm. |
| 21:42.07 | hagna | hans: yes... is that done? |
| 21:42.32 | maquis | sjansen: you want to clarify |
| 21:42.34 | hans | that sounds hard |
| 21:42.34 | hagna | probably not efficient to do things that way |
| 21:42.56 | sjansen | http://paste.lisp.org/display/11488 |
| 21:43.00 | hans | but you might have luck using a bridge interface and a virtual interface on the bridge, then limiting just that virtul interface |
| 21:43.13 | hans | but then that might not work in at least two places. only one way to find out |
| 21:43.39 | bonez41 | hans, hagna, sjansen maquis know any tests to check one's apache installation? I'd like to figure out what is right and not to right about how it's set up |
| 21:43.44 | hans | if you can say which ports, or otherwise detect things with iptables or tc filters, then it's easy enough |
| 21:43.47 | hagna | hans: why would using a virtual interface on a bridge be good |
| 21:44.05 | hans | i'm just thinking of how to isolate the process |
| 21:44.07 | hagna | I could probably detect it all with iptables |
| 21:44.13 | hans | i don't think pid is in the packets or anything |
| 21:44.15 | hagna | oh yeah that's right |
| 21:44.28 | hagna | you could have a virtual interface for each process |
| 21:44.52 | hagna | does 2.6.* support tc and all that |
| 21:44.56 | hans | do you need to hard limit it to 10mbit, or just say, if I want the other 90mbit, I get it first? |
| 21:44.56 | sjansen | pid can be known by iptables if the traffic comes from the local machine |
| 21:44.57 | hagna | where is a good reference? |
| 21:45.02 | hans | lart.org |
| 21:45.05 | hans | er, lartc.org |
| 21:45.06 | hans | sorry |
| 21:45.10 | hagna | hehe |
| 21:45.17 | hans | the section on queuing disciplines |
| 21:45.25 | hans | there you have it, sjansen has your answer. |
| 21:45.31 | hans | then you mark it with iptables |
| 21:45.33 | sjansen | bonez41: sorry, no |
| 21:45.58 | hans | and use htb to limit it. if your needs are sufficiently generic, you can just use wondershaper with almost no configuration |
| 21:46.21 | hans | it would probably still be a good starting point, but if you use it as a starting point be sure to go with htb, not cbq |
| 21:46.30 | hans | e.g. wshaper.htb |
| 21:46.35 | hagna | is that a queuing discipline? |
| 21:46.51 | hans | htb is, yes. as is cbq |
| 21:47.45 | hans | I'm off to class. let me know if you have more questions |
| 21:48.03 | hagna | hans: still going to school? |
| 21:48.05 | hagna | who me? |
| 21:48.40 | levi | hans is going to grad school. |
| 21:49.05 | hagna | yeah |
| 21:49.10 | hagna | ok thanks |
| 21:50.17 | sjansen | ssshhhh! Don't tell levi about the typos in that code I pasted. He'll blame them on the language. |
| 21:56.11 | levi | sjansen: No, those are all you. |
| 22:01.04 | maquis | which was causing it to fail |
| 22:01.56 | levi | maquis: The final test function or one of the unit test functions? |
| 22:07.04 | graphyx | levi: Are you the C language Lawyer around here? |
| 22:07.20 | levi | graphyx: No, but I use C daily. |
| 22:07.42 | levi | There are probably others that know it better. |
| 22:08.33 | graphyx | It's good to have those guys around for when you have spent 20 minutes trying to make sure your syntax is doing what you think it is doing. |
| 22:09.01 | levi | I also hate C. |
| 22:11.45 | graphyx | What are your preferred languages? |
| 22:11.52 | graphyx | aside from perl. |
| 22:14.23 | levi | I don't really like perl anyway. |
| 22:15.00 | graphyx | ok strike that last comment. |
| 22:15.01 | levi | I like Python for light-duty scripting. I like Scheme, Common Lisp, Smalltalk, and D if I must use a C-style language. |
| 22:15.33 | graphyx | Do you do real world programming with scheme? |
| 22:15.36 | levi | I'm interested in learning some ML variant and Haskell, though I'm not sure how much I'll like them. |
| 22:15.45 | levi | No, not currently. |
| 22:15.55 | graphyx | I know my professor was very fixed on stating that you could do anything in scheme. |
| 22:16.12 | levi | And you can, given a properly-extended scheme. |
| 22:16.19 | graphyx | but I never knew anyone who really wanted to wear out their parenthesis keys on the keyboard doing so. |
| 22:16.40 | levi | You don't have to type them all if you have a decent editor. |
| 22:17.09 | graphyx | The interesting thing is that that semester I only had 2 classes. scheme (330?) and Machine learning (472?) and the same professor was teaching both of them. |
| 22:17.10 | levi | They exist mostly for the compiler/interpreter to deal with. |
| 22:17.11 | graphyx | back to back. |
| 22:17.31 | graphyx | so I got to joke about doing my machine learning programs in scheme. |
| 22:17.56 | levi | Scheme is great for doing symbolic processing, and probably a good choice for machine learning. |
| 22:21.05 | maquis | levi: one of the unit tests had that problem |
| 22:21.16 | maquis | i'm about to check and make sure that's not the main problem |
| 22:21.57 | maquis | now |
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| 22:31.56 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@208.187.196.229) |
| 22:32.09 | graphyx | maquis: good luck on your aes project. |
| 22:32.14 | graphyx | Sounds like it could be quite a bit of fun. |
| 22:32.21 | graphyx | though perhaps not the easiest thing to do in perl. |
| 22:32.26 | findlay | maquis: care to offer me the timeout chair? |
| 22:32.48 | graphyx | what is the timeout chair you are speaking of? |
| 22:33.06 | findlay | ibot, if you please |
| 22:33.14 | findlay | ~timeout graphyx |
| 22:33.16 | ibot | ACTION grabs graphyx by the ear, drags him to the timeout chair, and forces him to sit there for 20 minutes |
| 22:33.47 | graphyx | ~dunce findlay |
| 22:34.50 | findlay | Yes! the coveted timeout chair |
| 22:46.36 | levi | So, I wonder when processors with Vanderpool/Pacifica stuff will be released and available. |
| 22:51.03 | Supaplex | the coveted x flare |
| 23:01.41 | RyanE | does anyone have the link to the new SSS CD? I downloaded it and deleted the link? |
| 23:02.08 | RyanE | the UUG website links to an older version. |
| 23:05.52 | findlay | uvlug has some kind of SSS, I'm not sure if it's the same thing |
| 23:07.03 | maquis | RyanE: it's at uvlug |
| 23:07.06 | maquis | let me grab the url |
| 23:08.49 | *** join/#utah byronc (n=byron@dsl092-197-123.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:10.53 | RyanE | maquis: I found it with google for uvlug SSS. Thanks. |
| 23:11.02 | RyanE | http://uvlug.org/sssapps/iso/ |
| 23:12.02 | maquis | hmm |
| 23:12.07 | maquis | i had copied it into my window |
| 23:12.10 | maquis | but hadn't hit enter |
| 23:13.11 | *** join/#utah ECS (n=ecs@128.187.252.18) |
| 23:15.28 | findlay | ~lart Specialk |
| 23:15.51 | Specialk | ~lart findlay |
| 23:22.31 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208-186-97-26.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 23:22.49 | xbmodder_lappy | really? |
| 23:22.52 | xbmodder_lappy | lol |
| 23:23.00 | xbmodder_lappy | ~lart me |
| 23:23.03 | xbmodder_lappy | ~hit me |
| 23:23.06 | ibot | ACTION punches xbmodder_lappy. |
| 23:23.09 | xbmodder_lappy | yay |
| 23:32.50 | maquis | ~lart Specialk |
| 23:32.53 | maquis | Specialk: where are you? |
| 23:47.26 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wade@65.73.113.199) |
| 23:49.47 | maquis | w00t! |
| 23:49.49 | maquis | cipher works |
| 23:49.56 | maquis | now i have to get inverseCipher |
| 23:50.03 | maquis | and then i have to get the interface |
| 23:50.08 | maquis | by midnight |
| 23:52.40 | xbmodder_lappy | sweet |
| 23:58.43 | Specialk | I'm in my office finishing Floating point bit twiddling |