| 00:03.50 | *** join/#utah RyanE_aw1y (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:11.05 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 00:12.38 | sjansen | With the defectiveness of our company, we apologize the fact that very much annoyance was applied the customer and to the related everyone deeply. |
| 00:12.49 | sjansen | http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjp.creative.com%2Fcorporate%2Fpressroom%2Freleases%2Fwelcome.asp%3Fpid%3D12173 |
| 00:13.05 | sjansen | Sometimes Babelfish achieves pure poetry. |
| 00:17.11 | hans | ~lart { |
| 00:17.37 | } | {, are we playing chicken? |
| 00:18.06 | sjansen | we'd have to switch at the same time |
| 00:20.18 | {[} | odd |
| 00:20.46 | {[} | I can /nick {[} but not {[_]} |
| 00:21.06 | {[} | and /nick {[} sometimes fails silently |
| 00:28.10 | levi | Whoa, that bike ride kicked my butt. |
| 00:28.55 | levi | One of my friends is training for a hilly double-century, so he's gotten strong. |
| 00:29.06 | levi | It was all I could do to keep up with him. |
| 00:29.13 | levi | And I hadn't been on my bike for 2 weeks. |
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| 00:32.04 | hans | ~jump sjansen |
| 00:32.05 | ibot | ACTION scrambles up the nearest tree, screams, then leaps feet first on top of sjansen |
| 00:32.43 | hans | Maquis: I've barely got enough homework so far to keep me going |
| 00:32.52 | {-} | WTF? A makefile that launches xchat on make clean?! |
| 00:33.17 | hans | what? |
| 00:33.21 | hans | where? |
| 00:33.46 | hans | I often do makefiles that launch xpdf on the default target, but xchat on clean sounds really odd |
| 00:35.21 | {x|x_is_fun} | hey there. I'm the set of all fun stuff |
| 00:35.49 | levi | Heh. |
| 00:36.23 | {-} | {x|x_is_fun}: don't suppose you have some "sleeping in on a warm sunday morning" to spare? |
| 00:36.38 | {x|x_is_fun} | ~fun sjansen |
| 00:36.53 | {x|x_is_fun} | ~hug {-} |
| 00:36.54 | ibot | ACTION hugs {-} |
| 00:36.56 | {x|x_is_fun} | best I can do |
| 00:37.07 | levi | hans: You taking a math class? |
| 00:37.15 | {x|x_is_fun} | cs theory class |
| 00:37.20 | xbmodder | hey |
| 00:37.25 | xbmodder | I have to learn java in HS |
| 00:37.28 | xbmodder | fun fun fun! |
| 00:37.39 | {x|x_is_fun} | like 252 at BYU, but at the grad level |
| 00:37.53 | levi | hans: Cool. What's your textbook? |
| 00:37.57 | {x|x_is_fun} | although so far it's just review of discrete math and automata |
| 00:38.17 | {x|x_is_fun} | theory of computation by sipser |
| 00:39.45 | levi | Cool. |
| 00:40.43 | levi | I got UVSC to substitute CS252 for the intro to theory class there, so it may be a while before I get another theory class. |
| 00:40.48 | xbmodder | didn't mheath say something about teenagers not learning OOP languages as their first? |
| 00:41.14 | {x|x_is_fun} | he may have. google will know |
| 00:41.51 | hans | anyone good with intel assembly? |
| 00:41.59 | hans | as in, can explain syntax to me if I have a question |
| 00:42.04 | levi | xbmodder: He did, but he was talking out of his ass. |
| 00:42.19 | levi | hans: There's an online textbook that may help. |
| 00:42.31 | levi | Although I don't recall which syntax it uses... |
| 00:42.41 | hans | shll $4, %eax |
| 00:42.49 | *** part/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 00:43.00 | hans | is that an immediate 4 or some kid of variable or what... I guess the $ is what I'm not sure about |
| 00:43.12 | levi | hans: Google for 'programming from the ground up' |
| 00:44.27 | hans | wow, teach nonprogrammers assembly. that's a strange goal. |
| 00:45.06 | levi | Looks like $4 is immediate 4. |
| 00:45.55 | levi | So it shlls the number 4 with the contents of register eax. |
| 00:48.38 | hans | thanks for the link. I think skimming this book will get me up to speed with linux x86 assembly. |
| 00:48.55 | levi | Cool, glad it was useful. |
| 00:49.01 | levi | What are you using x86 asm for? |
| 00:49.02 | hans | the prof is assuming a basic knowledge of intel instruction set, and although I've done a bit of assembly, never with intel's set |
| 00:49.20 | hans | i've never really been exposed to intel's set actually, other than knowing it's tooooo complicated. |
| 00:50.05 | hans | my OS class. not writing it, just reading it and being able to do more than give a blank stare when he talks about such and such register |
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| 00:50.35 | hans | the immediate goal is to find out where the global descriptor table is initialized in the linux kernel |
| 00:52.06 | hans | wasn't it a nausicaan that knifed picard? |
| 00:52.20 | *** join/#utah {-} (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 00:52.46 | levi | Yes, but that's almost entirely unrelated. The only relation is that Disney's release has Patrick Stewart as a voice actor. :) |
| 00:54.34 | hans | heh |
| 00:54.38 | levi | I've only watched a crappy RealMedia fansub of this before. |
| 00:54.49 | hans | I'm still rather bummed that my copy of stewart reading Peter and the Wolf is dead |
| 00:54.52 | goozbach | so I'm excited for the new Americian Dad |
| 00:55.13 | goozbach | Patric Stewart as the director of the CIA |
| 00:55.19 | goozbach | it's gonna be great! |
| 00:58.46 | goozbach | http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/marigan?entry=how_the_vi_editor_would |
| 01:00.15 | xbmodder | yeah I saw that :) |
| 01:00.26 | xbmodder | And the girl I like Kind of likes me :0 |
| 01:02.42 | goozbach | and uncle jesse smokes pot |
| 01:03.05 | goozbach | not Uncle_Jesse uncle jesse, but the new movie's uncle jesse |
| 01:03.16 | xbmodder | lol |
| 01:04.52 | hans | Uncle_Jesse: consider yourself warned. If you can't prove you're smoking pot, your nick will be revoked and you'll have to choose something with only 6 lowercase letters. |
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| 01:08.47 | xbmodder | heh |
| 01:10.28 | xbmodder | I can't read my own code :) |
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| 01:11.47 | graphyx | evening y'alls. |
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| 01:34.45 | goozbach | blah |
| 01:34.55 | levi | blah? |
| 01:35.03 | hans | balh |
| 01:35.17 | levi | halb |
| 01:35.24 | goozbach | habl |
| 01:35.40 | mheath | lahb |
| 01:36.08 | sjansen | hablo |
| 01:36.16 | graphyx | parlo italiano. |
| 01:36.23 | hans | falo |
| 01:36.34 | sjansen | falo tambem |
| 01:44.12 | sjansen | Please, make it stop. Just make it stop. |
| 01:44.52 | graphyx | ok anyone here really good at blind sql injection? |
| 01:53.07 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 01:56.27 | levi | Isn't that typically a bad thing? |
| 01:57.54 | sjansen | Getting caught doing it is a bad thing. |
| 01:58.27 | graphyx | Well when they contract you to pen test them I think they really want you to do stuff like that. |
| 01:58.32 | graphyx | As I do pen testing for the company I work for. |
| 01:59.56 | graphyx | I think those guys are called artists.. |
| 02:00.05 | graphyx | Wrong major for that one Stuart. |
| 02:00.11 | graphyx | er.. wrong degree. |
| 02:00.26 | sjansen | ~scribble graphyx |
| 02:04.00 | graphyx | ~scrabble sjansen |
| 02:21.37 | xbmodder | ? |
| 02:22.05 | Maquis | xbmodder: when you grow up, you have to pay rent |
| 02:22.10 | Maquis | and it's not fun |
| 02:22.49 | graphyx | Then you learn better and start to pay a mortgage. |
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| 02:23.05 | graphyx | Which isn't much different except that 15-30 years later you can stop paying it if you do it right. |
| 02:23.10 | xbmodder | no I mean: ~scribble graphyx |
| 02:23.11 | Maquis | yeah... but that's when you're actually going to be staying someplace for a while |
| 02:23.20 | Maquis | well... he was pen-testing |
| 02:23.29 | Maquis | ok |
| 02:23.36 | Maquis | so, i was told to stick something in rc.local |
| 02:23.41 | Maquis | but i don't have an rc.local |
| 02:23.51 | Maquis | do i stick it in rc.3 instead? |
| 02:24.00 | Maquis | or can i create the rc.local and have it just recognized? |
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| 02:24.22 | Maquis | ?? |
| 02:24.28 | graphyx | no. |
| 02:24.35 | Maquis | s/rc.3/rc3.d |
| 02:24.40 | Maquis | graphyx: no? |
| 02:24.44 | Maquis | then... what? |
| 02:24.54 | graphyx | if it doesn't exist that means your version of linux doesn't do that. |
| 02:25.02 | graphyx | And just adding in the file isn't going to get it recognized. |
| 02:25.55 | Maquis | ok... so, do i add it in rc3.d? |
| 02:26.02 | Maquis | if i boot to runlevel3 |
| 02:26.14 | graphyx | yeah that sounds right. |
| 02:26.19 | graphyx | You are using red hat no? |
| 02:26.19 | Maquis | ok |
| 02:26.22 | Maquis | no |
| 02:26.25 | Maquis | sarge |
| 02:26.42 | Maquis | there's also an rcS.d, but i'm not sure what that's for |
| 02:27.16 | Maquis | wait... now i'm confused... |
| 02:27.24 | Maquis | i was told to stick this in a file called rc.local |
| 02:27.39 | graphyx | I don't have a lot of experience with debian. |
| 02:27.52 | graphyx | so I can't say with any degree of validity. |
| 02:28.06 | Maquis | rc3.d isn't a file |
| 02:30.27 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:30.28 | goozbach | ? |
| 02:30.41 | Maquis | goozbach: there's an rcS.d |
| 02:30.55 | Maquis | it's also a folder, though |
| 02:31.13 | goozbach | that's for single user mode |
| 02:31.23 | goozbach | no /etc/rc.sysinit ? |
| 02:31.26 | Maquis | it has someting in there for alsa, though |
| 02:31.29 | Maquis | the others don't.. |
| 02:31.37 | goozbach | hmm |
| 02:31.44 | Maquis | why would single-user-mode need sudo and alsa and such? |
| 02:33.13 | Maquis | [osiris erins] ls /etc/rc3.d |
| 02:33.14 | Maquis | S10sysklogd S20dbus-1 S20mzscheme S20xprint S99rmnologin |
| 02:33.14 | Maquis | S11klogd S20exim4 S20pcmcia S21nfs-common S99stop-bootlogd |
| 02:33.14 | Maquis | S14ppp S20inetd S20postgresql-7.4 S89atd |
| 02:33.14 | Maquis | S15ibm-acpi S20lpd S20ssh S89cron |
| 02:33.16 | Maquis | S18portmap S20makedev S20xfs S91apache2 |
| 02:33.29 | Maquis | [osiris erins] ls /etc/rcS.d/ |
| 02:33.30 | Maquis | README S20module-init-tools S39dns-clean S48console-screen.sh |
| 02:33.30 | Maquis | S02mountvirtfs S20modutils S39ifupdown S50alsa-utils |
| 02:33.30 | Maquis | S05bootlogd S30checkfs.sh S40hostname.sh S50hwclock.sh |
| 02:33.30 | Maquis | S05initrd-tools.sh S30procps.sh S40hotplug S55bootmisc.sh |
| 02:33.32 | Maquis | S05keymap.sh S35mountall.sh S40networking S55urandom |
| 02:33.34 | Maquis | S10checkroot.sh S36discover S41hotplug-net S70nviboot |
| 02:33.37 | Maquis | S18hwclockfirst.sh S36mountvirtfs S43portmap S70xfree86-common |
| 02:33.39 | Maquis | S18ifupdown-clean S38pppd-dns S45mountnfs.sh S75sudo |
| 02:34.57 | Maquis | it looks like that might be the system init, not the single-user |
| 02:35.01 | graphyx | That would be the directory which tells linux what init.d script to load in what order. |
| 02:35.05 | Maquis | right? |
| 02:35.15 | graphyx | Those are all links if I am correct. |
| 02:35.26 | Maquis | graphyx: so... how do i add something to the boot process? |
| 02:36.06 | graphyx | You just add a link to that directory with the SxxNAME in the order that you want it loaded. |
| 02:36.15 | Maquis | graphyx: wjat of o dpm |
| 02:36.28 | Maquis | twhat if i don't want it to be one of the init.d types of things |
| 02:36.34 | Maquis | i just want it to run one single command... |
| 02:36.41 | Maquis | not init.d/foo start |
| 02:36.51 | graphyx | do you want it to run when the system boots? |
| 02:37.22 | graphyx | or when you launch a shell? |
| 02:37.39 | Maquis | i want it to run when the system boots |
| 02:37.49 | Maquis | after alsa starts |
| 02:37.56 | Maquis | it configues alsa |
| 02:38.00 | Maquis | i think... |
| 02:38.03 | Maquis | right goo? |
| 02:38.22 | Maquis | (it's goo's script... ) |
| 02:39.02 | graphyx | Yeah then add a single init.d script in the fashion that init.d scripts are put in and add a symlink to that directory with the Sxx being 1 digit after asla. |
| 02:39.03 | goozbach | it could be that it's better to put it into /etc/modprobe.conf |
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| 02:39.36 | Maquis | goozbach: i don't have that either |
| 02:40.11 | Maquis | what about /etc/modprobe.d/sound ? |
| 02:40.23 | goozbach | hmmm |
| 02:40.34 | goozbach | any debian gurus in the house? |
| 02:40.44 | Maquis | /etc/modprobe.d/sound currently has: |
| 02:40.54 | Maquis | alias snd-card-0 snd-intel8x0 |
| 02:41.00 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:41.13 | goozbach | that's all? |
| 02:41.18 | Maquis | yeah |
| 02:41.23 | goozbach | add the following to that file. |
| 02:41.24 | Maquis | ~invoke hans |
| 02:41.33 | Maquis | hans: you around? |
| 02:42.32 | Maquis | :{) |
| 02:42.33 | Maquis | :) |
| 02:42.50 | goozbach | install snd-card-0 /usr/sbin/alsactl restore -f /path/to/config |
| 02:44.27 | hans | Maquis: pong |
| 02:46.29 | hans | what's up? |
| 02:46.44 | hans | just invoke and run, is that it? |
| 02:46.52 | graphyx | That was quite amusing timing.. |
| 02:47.08 | graphyx | please tell me that you have a bot listening to the channel and paging you if your name gets mentioned.. |
| 02:47.15 | hans | no, no sir |
| 02:47.19 | hans | pure coincidence |
| 02:50.07 | graphyx | quite the timing.. |
| 03:01.29 | xbmodder | yes'em |
| 03:01.57 | graphyx | but it looks like.. "Did you rub my lamp and now you are leaving me? I don't think so!!!!" |
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| 03:10.23 | xbmodder | ~welcome emcnabb, |
| 03:10.25 | ibot | Good to see you, emcnabb,! |
| 03:10.25 | xbmodder | ~welcome emcnabb |
| 03:10.26 | ibot | emcnabb, Sup yo? |
| 03:10.31 | xbmodder | ~welcome byronc |
| 03:10.32 | ibot | Howdy, byronc! |
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| 03:25.02 | *** part/#utah diskotec|w (n=virc@12.125.156.114) |
| 03:44.16 | Maquis | hans: sorry about that |
| 03:44.22 | Maquis | i had a friend come over right after i said that |
| 03:44.44 | hans | some friend. probably didn't even help you with alsa |
| 03:44.48 | Maquis | i'm trying to get something to run during boot, shortly after alsa starts |
| 03:44.53 | Maquis | and i can't figure out how to do it |
| 03:44.58 | Maquis | hans: yeah... some friend... :) |
| 03:45.07 | Maquis | actually, she was coming over to tell me about the guy she just got engaged to |
| 03:45.52 | hans | so you want to do something on boot |
| 03:46.01 | Maquis | yup |
| 03:46.32 | Maquis | goo said to call it from rc.local, but debian doesn't have rc.local |
| 03:48.32 | Maquis | oh... and on a different problem, i'm trying to install amarok, and i'm having the problem explained at http://www.guadalinex.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7864&forum=10 |
| 03:48.37 | Maquis | except my problem is in english |
| 03:49.18 | hans | see in /etc/init.d/rcS it will call anything in /etc/rc.boot/ with run-parts |
| 03:49.22 | hans | you could do that |
| 03:49.44 | Maquis | i don't have /etc/rc.boot |
| 03:49.57 | Maquis | what do you mean about run0parts |
| 03:49.58 | Maquis | ? |
| 03:50.50 | hans | make it |
| 03:50.56 | hans | man run-parts |
| 03:51.09 | Maquis | ok... |
| 03:51.12 | hans | rc.boot is deprecated, but it still works. I'm looking to see what the replacement might be |
| 03:51.13 | Maquis | thanks |
| 03:51.42 | Maquis | it looks like /tc/rcs.d is a bunch of symlinks to things thta run at boot... |
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| 03:51.59 | Maquis | wasn't sure if i could just add something there, though |
| 03:53.33 | hans | not sure about that one. see also 10.5 here: http://www.fifi.org/doc/debian/FAQ/ch-customizing.html |
| 03:53.36 | hans | and 10.6 |
| 03:54.10 | hans | personally, I despise sysv init scripts with all my heart, no matter which flavor |
| 03:54.31 | hans | Bradipo: daemontools is only slightly better. not enough better. |
| 03:54.56 | hans | i dunno, maybe if svc had a manpage... |
| 03:56.26 | mheath | I was working on an init system a while back |
| 03:56.30 | hans | get out your netsplit surfboards |
| 03:56.52 | Maquis | netsplit surfboard ready |
| 03:56.53 | mheath | designed to be extremely configurable, heavy logging capabilities, and some nice features to assure things kept running |
| 03:58.27 | hans | as a sysadmin, I need the following in an init scheme: dependencies, easy to enable/disable stuff, easy to stop/start/restart/reload, easy to write off-the-hip scripts like Maquis is doing |
| 03:58.46 | hans | /etc/init.d/foo (stop|start|restart) doesn't count as easy (that's a lot of typing) |
| 03:59.23 | hans | enable/disable is a nightmare (a simple nightmare, but a nightmare nonetheless) |
| 03:59.42 | hans | dependencies... ha |
| 04:19.56 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 04:19.56 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feed |
| 04:19.56 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 04:20.17 | mheath | hans, the ideas I had incorporated into it were very nice, though |
| 04:20.53 | *** join/#utah WoodsDog (n=woodsdog@64.0.192.254) |
| 04:21.55 | hans | sounds cool. put some notes on it up on the web or something |
| 04:22.06 | hans | maybe it will spark someone's inner code monkey |
| 04:24.23 | Maquis | goozbach: you around? |
| 05:00.29 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 05:00.29 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feed |
| 05:00.29 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 05:08.02 | goozbach | maquis, am now |
| 05:10.36 | *** join/#utah xbmodder (i=nobody@unaffiliated/xbmodder) |
| 05:10.52 | goozbach | but as soon as my cheesecake gets here @lm gone again |
| 05:20.07 | xbmodder | I over heated |
| 05:21.27 | goozbach | xbmodder: you should really save that for marriage |
| 05:26.43 | xbmodder | *my computer over heated |
| 05:29.15 | xbmodder | Man MySpace (tm) Sucks ass |
| 05:30.59 | xbmodder | oh god I love being a geek and not saying we got 2go2 da movi etonight |
| 05:34.04 | xbmodder | anyone? |
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| 05:34.15 | *** join/#utah xbmodder (i=nobody@unaffiliated/xbmodder) |
| 05:34.38 | Maquis | question for people |
| 05:34.52 | Maquis | so, i'm trying to get sleep working on my laptop |
| 05:34.56 | Maquis | and i'm really close (i think) |
| 05:34.59 | Maquis | here's the issue |
| 05:35.14 | Maquis | it goes into suspend fine, and it sounds like it's powering down and all that |
| 05:35.24 | Maquis | but when it comes back up, X is dead... |
| 05:36.31 | xbmodder | any errors? |
| 05:37.17 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 05:37.44 | Maquis | the only thing i see in the logs is that it can't find radeontool, although i thought that was only needed if the screen wasn't turning off |
| 05:37.54 | Maquis | i can try installing that and see if it makes a differnece, though |
| 05:42.28 | Maquis | xbmodder: here's an error that X is giving: |
| 05:42.41 | Maquis | EnterVT failed for screen 0 |
| 05:43.03 | Maquis | g |
| 05:48.20 | xbmodder | hm |
| 05:48.26 | xbmodder | try asking X guys? |
| 05:48.59 | Maquis | because this will be running as root |
| 05:49.11 | Maquis | and if it doesn't have permissions to the screen as root |
| 05:49.19 | Maquis | which is silly and i need to fix it anyway |
| 05:49.57 | xbmodder | what distro? |
| 05:50.04 | xbmodder | some distros don't let X11 run as root |
| 05:50.12 | Maquis | debian |
| 05:50.17 | Maquis | i don't want X11 to run as root |
| 05:50.22 | Maquis | i just want to be able to su - |
| 05:50.26 | Maquis | and then run gvim |
| 05:50.28 | Maquis | or something like that |
| 05:57.26 | Maquis | grrrr |
| 05:57.34 | Maquis | it's not the root issue |
| 05:57.44 | Maquis | because otherwise setting xhost + would've resolved it, right? |
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| 06:14.08 | Maquis | TimRiker: hi |
| 06:14.26 | Maquis | have you ever seen a situation where resuming from suspend caused X to die? |
| 06:14.54 | Maquis | the only error I can see is EnterVT failed for screen 0 |
| 06:15.31 | Maquis | i tried it with xhost + to make sure it wasn't a problem with root not having access to the display (which is another issue i'm wrestling with on this machine) |
| 06:15.45 | Maquis | but it still had the same problem |
| 06:19.28 | xbmodder | "There must be a bug in the graphics card driver or X server. |
| 06:19.33 | xbmodder | " End quote |
| 06:20.08 | xbmodder | Maquis, try this switch to VT1 and then switch back to X |
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| 13:51.22 | levi | Morning. |
| 13:52.29 | graphyx | hey Levi whats the word? |
| 13:58.30 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 13:58.49 | graphyx | Maquis: What degree are you pursuing right now? |
| 13:58.55 | Maquis | what are the benefits of suspend to disk over suspend to ram |
| 13:58.58 | Maquis | graphyx: cs |
| 13:59.01 | Maquis | bs |
| 13:59.49 | graphyx | Maquis: If you have no power to the device you can still resume. |
| 14:00.05 | Maquis | ?? |
| 14:00.08 | graphyx | suspend to ram is a volatile process. |
| 14:00.15 | graphyx | since if you lose power you lose what is in RAM. |
| 14:00.20 | Maquis | ok |
| 14:00.32 | graphyx | That is about it. |
| 14:00.36 | Maquis | so, i should probably focus on trying to get suspend-to-disk instead of suspend-to-ram? |
| 14:00.51 | graphyx | Only if the laptop doesn't have a good battery. |
| 14:00.54 | Maquis | i've got suspend-to-ram almost working, but the problem it's getting is kinda weird... |
| 14:01.10 | graphyx | If you get a laptop that has a good battery then suspend to ram might not be all that bad. |
| 14:02.26 | emcnabb | I prefer suspend to RAM |
| 14:02.34 | Maquis | emcnabb: why? |
| 14:02.43 | emcnabb | it's faster, and lasts long enough for most things I do |
| 14:02.56 | emcnabb | when I suspend, I usually suspend for a few minutes to a few hours |
| 14:03.11 | emcnabb | suspend to RAM works great for that time frame |
| 14:03.12 | Maquis | emcnabb: i can show you what i've done so far to get it working.... you might be able to get it up pretty quickly |
| 14:03.34 | Maquis | out of curiosity, does it turn off the wireless card also? |
| 14:03.47 | emcnabb | I probably won't be able to work on it until this weekend |
| 14:03.52 | emcnabb | I'm kind of busy this week |
| 14:03.59 | emcnabb | got to go |
| 14:04.01 | emcnabb | later |
| 14:04.03 | Maquis | emcnabb: hopefully i'll be done by then |
| 14:04.07 | Maquis | have fun |
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| 14:12.11 | hans | Maquis: suspend to disk often works better, but it is slower |
| 14:12.27 | hans | you have to wait for the post and for the first part of the kernel to boot, to resume from disk |
| 14:12.39 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 14:12.43 | hans | and of course the read from and write to disk |
| 14:13.05 | hans | suspend to ram is cooler by far unless you have a bad battery, but unfortunately it's very buggy in most laptops |
| 14:13.32 | hans | but with enough patience and hackery, you can get it to work right if the laptop will at least do the sleeping thing |
| 14:13.39 | Maquis | suspend to ram doesn't seem *that* buggy on mine... if i can just get it to not kill X, it'd work great |
| 14:13.47 | hans | kill x? |
| 14:13.55 | Maquis | it works fine til i try to resume |
| 14:13.59 | Maquis | then X died |
| 14:14.15 | Maquis | EnterVT failed for screen 0 |
| 14:14.16 | hans | try switching to vc1 before suspending |
| 14:14.59 | hans | or don't use x. ;-) |
| 14:15.13 | hans | is x the only thing that doesn't work? your wireless card sleeps and resumes fine? |
| 14:16.17 | levi | Heh. The sleep thing is one reason I decided to get an Apple laptop. |
| 14:16.32 | Maquis | hans: that was weirder |
| 14:16.36 | hans | ditto. it is the primary reason I spend most of my time in os x |
| 14:16.49 | levi | I've never had sleep working very well on a Linux laptop. |
| 14:16.58 | hans | suspend almost works in linux, but the wireless thing is a bit wacky and I haven't bothered to get it working, since it's easier to stay in os x |
| 14:17.04 | levi | Or in Windows, for that matter. |
| 14:17.22 | hans | i guess the fact that I have to use an external wireless thing is the other primary factor |
| 14:17.27 | Maquis | i switched to vt1, and it went down fine... but when it came up, it came to a completely grey screen that just stayed there until i tried to change to vt7... at which point X died |
| 14:17.29 | levi | My vaio would sleep fine, most of the time, but it just took forever to do it. |
| 14:17.48 | levi | (in Windows, that is... it never slept at all in Linux) |
| 14:18.28 | hans | i got the compaq evo from work to work pretty well. no suspend to ram, only disk, but everything worked well including the pcmcia wireless crd |
| 14:19.13 | Maquis | for mine, either the wireless card is staying up the whole time, or it's going down and coming up fine |
| 14:19.48 | hans | that's a bonus |
| 14:19.55 | hans | they can be notorious |
| 14:20.12 | hans | but usually it boils down to running some command before sleeping, and after awaking |
| 14:20.21 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 14:20.24 | Maquis | vt2 is still grey |
| 14:20.30 | levi | I hate suspend to disk, because it takes so long to work. |
| 14:20.44 | Maquis | but vt3-vt6 are fine |
| 14:20.56 | levi | If it takes longer than 2-3 seconds, it's too long. |
| 14:21.15 | hans | one nice thing about s2d is that you can suspend to disk and boot into windows (or whatever your dual boot os is) and later you can resume your linux session right where you were |
| 14:21.38 | hans | but yeah, it's too long for the casual needs of day-to-day life, especially the student life |
| 14:21.43 | xbmodder | Maquis, try using the VESA drivers :) |
| 14:22.12 | Maquis | ~seen dkelson |
| 14:22.20 | ibot | dkelson <~upirc@001-809-440.area1.spcsdns.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 288d 8h 7m 52s ago, saying: 'crap!!!'. |
| 14:22.28 | Maquis | hmmm |
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| 15:17.35 | graphyx | So let me guess the flipped screen is being used to make a laptop mounted to ceiling of a car to make it a dvd player? |
| 15:19.54 | tiwula | anyone having gaim issues today? or am I just special?? |
| 15:20.03 | graphyx | you are just special. |
| 15:20.30 | graphyx | I am using gaim for IRC/MSN/yahoo/aim |
| 15:20.33 | graphyx | and jabber |
| 15:21.22 | graphyx | remember you are unique!! Just like everyone else. |
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| 15:30.46 | RyanE | when everyone is super, *no-one* is. |
| 15:32.47 | dataw0lf | great movie. |
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| 15:35.58 | Jayce^ | RyanE, I see your kids watch that a lot too :) |
| 15:39.26 | RyanE | @Jayce^: Yep. Used to be Toy Story. |
| 15:39.46 | Jayce^ | an Monsters Inc, etc... |
| 15:40.43 | RyanE | Jayce^: For a while, one of our daughters used to call 'Hannah! Coming Mom' throughout the house. (and we have no Hannahs living there). |
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| 15:43.46 | graphyx | RyanE: where does the hannah reference come from? Emporer's new groove? |
| 15:44.22 | RyanE | Toy Story. Sid's sister's name is Hannah or Hanna |
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| 15:45.17 | graphyx | gotcha. |
| 15:47.03 | RyanE | she's just not as famous since there isn't a Debian build named after her. :) |
| 15:48.55 | Jayce^ | yeah, my son loves doing the 'kronk' riiiiight |
| 15:49.39 | graphyx | who has the debian distro named after them? |
| 15:50.45 | levi | Debian releases are all named after Toy Story characters. |
| 15:50.49 | RyanE | Woody, Sarge, Sid |
| 15:50.55 | graphyx | oh... |
| 15:50.57 | levi | Potato |
| 15:51.00 | graphyx | didn't realize that. |
| 15:51.00 | dataw0lf | Bo |
| 15:51.02 | RyanE | Jayce^: http://imdb.com/title/tt0401398/ |
| 15:51.05 | graphyx | That's cool. |
| 15:51.22 | RyanE | http://www.ultimatedisney.com/animatedpreview0506.html |
| 15:51.29 | graphyx | Dash wouldn't be too bad a name for a linux version. |
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| 16:17.00 | sjansen | Anyone else having problems with benford.freenode.net? |
| 16:17.49 | Jayce^ | http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/70503/wo/Jh6yEioDhxAB3BsOCKl1NefYtsl/0.0.11.1.0.6.23.1.0.1.0.0.0.1.0 |
| 16:17.57 | Jayce^ | apple "mini test drive" |
| 16:18.33 | Jayce^ | 30 days free |
| 16:19.26 | levi | Well, you have to pay up front, but you can return it for a refund in 30 days. |
| 16:19.31 | sjansen | act now, pick a psuedonymn, and get 60 free days! (90 if you're lucky) |
| 16:20.07 | Jayce^ | figure that's an easy way to see how well linux runs on it .. |
| 16:22.04 | levi | Probably pretty well, if you don't mind not having wireless. |
| 16:22.11 | levi | But, why? |
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| 16:22.35 | neybar_work | Jayce^, debian works great on the mini |
| 16:22.43 | Jayce^ | quite nice little cases |
| 16:22.50 | neybar_work | I'm using it as a web/mail/fileserver |
| 16:22.58 | Jayce^ | neybar_work, yeah, been wondering about what I'd want on one plugged into my tv |
| 16:23.08 | Jayce^ | that's the part I want to know the most, is having it on the tV |
| 16:23.16 | neybar_work | yeah |
| 16:23.25 | levi | A coworker of mine has his plugged into a TV. |
| 16:23.26 | RyanE | It has a MythTV Client, apparently. |
| 16:23.32 | levi | He runs OS X, though. |
| 16:23.33 | Jayce^ | yeah.. |
| 16:23.37 | RyanE | that's my only interest. |
| 16:23.38 | sjansen | Jayce^: won't work, you'd be better off giving me the TV and the mini so you're not tempted to waste your time |
| 16:23.43 | Jayce^ | I would liek dual boot |
| 16:23.44 | levi | Typically uses it via VNC. |
| 16:24.04 | Jayce^ | it'd be nice to have it displaying/playing media from my server |
| 16:24.17 | Jayce^ | sjansen, really, would you do that for *me*? |
| 16:24.33 | sjansen | in a heartbeat |
| 16:24.50 | sjansen | I'd have to think before making the same offer to most anyone else on #utah. |
| 16:25.05 | Jayce^ | wow... lucky me |
| 16:25.18 | sjansen | ~hug Jayce^ |
| 16:25.20 | ibot | ACTION hugs Jayce^ |
| 16:25.37 | Jayce^ | ooh, Belo Horizonte now has a perl mongers group... |
| 16:26.16 | goozbach | http://wonderpizzausa.com/ |
| 16:29.21 | levi | Pizza vending machines. Interesting. |
| 16:29.33 | levi | If popular, the lines at them could get pretty long. |
| 16:29.41 | dataw0lf | 5-6 bucks? I doubt it. |
| 16:29.57 | Jayce^ | they have a machine like that at the airport.. |
| 16:30.14 | Jayce^ | not quite that expensive, just does the frozen type pizzas and sutff |
| 16:30.54 | levi | If they're really like Connie's pizza, they'd be a significant improvement over typical frozen type pizzas. |
| 16:42.19 | Bradipo | Wow, pizza vending machine is blasphemous. |
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| 16:44.09 | levi | Not any more blasphemous than frozen pizza. |
| 16:44.22 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 16:44.27 | Bradipo | True. |
| 16:44.35 | Bradipo | And I haven't had a frozen pizza that I liked. |
| 16:44.36 | Maquis | this seems like reverse reverse polish notation |
| 16:44.40 | Maquis | (+ 3 4) |
| 16:44.51 | levi | No, it's prefix notation. |
| 16:44.52 | Bradipo | 3 4 + |
| 16:45.01 | levi | Reverse polish is... what Bradipo said. |
| 16:45.36 | levi | RPN is what you'll find in Forth, should you ever learn it. |
| 16:46.27 | levi | And also certain models of HP calculators, of course. |
| 16:47.05 | Maquis | levi: yes... |
| 16:47.13 | Maquis | and prefix is the reverse of what Bradipo said |
| 16:47.21 | Maquis | so therefore prefix is reverse reverse polish notation |
| 16:47.39 | Bradipo | lol |
| 16:47.40 | levi | ... yeah, except with parentheses. |
| 16:47.56 | Maquis | :) |
| 16:48.00 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 16:48.03 | levi | Which give you the option of variable arity for function calls. |
| 16:48.06 | tene | so it's Polish Lisp Notation |
| 16:48.16 | levi | It's called S-Expressions. |
| 16:48.25 | tene | I like my name better. |
| 16:48.26 | Bradipo | operands on the stack operators on the stack RPN places. |
| 16:48.31 | Maquis | you could potentiallky make something that is as evil as hideous perl... 1-liners and such |
| 16:49.18 | levi | Yeah, but a sane editor could render it readable again with a single keypress. |
| 16:50.42 | levi | There are other fun ways to make obscure scheme code, though, that are semantic rather than syntactic. Wait until you learn call-with-current-continuation. And the y-combinator. :) |
| 16:53.06 | levi | I'm pretty sure both of them are introduced by your textbook, though you will make much more use of continuations, IIRC. |
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| 17:01.30 | levi | Not only do you get to use first-class continuations (as provided by call-with-current-continuation), but you get to implement them as well! Isn't that cool? |
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| 17:03.00 | Lone_Wanderer | What's the word that people mean when they use Turing Complete to describe a language instead of a problem? |
| 17:04.08 | RyanE | np-complete? |
| 17:04.13 | RyanE | I don't quite understand the question. |
| 17:04.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, a problem can be said to be Turing-complete when a computer can solve it |
| 17:05.21 | Lone_Wanderer | some people use Turing-complete to describe a language that can calculate anything calculatable, though, which is not strictly speaking correct, it's really supposed to be Turing-(something) when describing a language instead of a problem |
| 17:05.26 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: A language is turing-complete if it can be used to implement a universal turing machine, which is provably able to solve every computable problem. |
| 17:06.07 | levi | Perhaps 'Turing-equivalent', then? |
| 17:06.11 | Lone_Wanderer | turing-complete describes problems which can be solved by a turing machine though, turing-(something) describes languages, if you want to be strict about your usage, even though everyone uses turing-complete to describe languages |
| 17:06.18 | Lone_Wanderer | equivalent! thank you |
| 17:06.22 | tene | 'Turing-Compatible', I believe I've heard before. |
| 17:07.04 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm in a flame war about pascal and I want to sound smart ;) |
| 17:07.46 | tene | use an automated service to translate your text to slovenian and back. |
| 17:08.15 | Lone_Wanderer | hey that's not a bad idea |
| 17:08.43 | levi | Using Turing-equivalency in an argument comparing programming languages is not a very useful thing. |
| 17:08.55 | Lone_Wanderer | "It's a semantic, not a language feature - any turing-equivalent language has some sort of assignment operator." |
| 17:09.12 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm saying that arguing over which assignment operator is better is pointless |
| 17:09.34 | levi | Well, not necessarily. |
| 17:09.34 | tene | Lone_Wanderer: even bf? |
| 17:09.48 | levi | And it's not true that you need assignment operators. |
| 17:10.02 | Lone_Wanderer | you have to be able to store a value in a register |
| 17:10.19 | levi | That's an implementation detail. |
| 17:10.30 | Lone_Wanderer | or it's not turing-complete |
| 17:10.33 | Lone_Wanderer | equivalent. whatever. |
| 17:10.43 | levi | That doesn't imply an assignment operator, though. |
| 17:10.53 | tene | Lone_Wanderer: look at bf |
| 17:11.02 | tene | or even the definition of a turing machine |
| 17:11.17 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah, a turing machine stores values in cells on the tape |
| 17:11.31 | levi | Look at the lambda calculus, which was the other approach to the Church-Turing thesis. |
| 17:11.48 | Lone_Wanderer | what's the Church-Turing thesis? |
| 17:12.01 | Lone_Wanderer | btw here's that sentence translated into Russian and back |
| 17:12.02 | Lone_Wanderer | It semantic, not the characteristic of language - any turing-.sootvetstvuyushchiy language takes a certain form of the operator of designation. |
| 17:12.31 | levi | It's what says that everything computable can be computed by a Turing Machine (or expressed in the Lambda Calculus). |
| 17:12.45 | levi | s/or/and also/ |
| 17:12.53 | tene | Lone_Wanderer: that doesn't imply an assignment operator in the instruction set |
| 17:13.15 | levi | Pure functional languages have no assignment operators. |
| 17:13.28 | Lone_Wanderer | hmmmm |
| 17:13.29 | levi | There is variable binding, but no assignment. |
| 17:13.52 | Lone_Wanderer | lambda calculus is used to build purely functional languages right? |
| 17:13.52 | levi | You should know this, considering your interest in Lisp. :) |
| 17:14.21 | Lone_Wanderer | right but I'd never thought of writing something where variables are never assigned values... |
| 17:14.23 | levi | lambda calculus is a mathematical tool used to reason about computation. |
| 17:16.38 | levi | LISP was a language built based on the lambda calculus rather than the von Neumann architecture. |
| 17:16.48 | Lone_Wanderer | but you just said that everything computable can be (...) expressed in the Lambda Calculus |
| 17:17.43 | levi | Yes, but there is more to a language than what is theoretically computable in it. |
| 17:18.39 | levi | Although Turing Machines and the Lambda Calculus are theoretically equivalent in power, the Lambda Calculus is far easier for humans to use in expressing a given computation. |
| 17:18.44 | Lone_Wanderer | of course, otherwise we wouldn't be having the discussion in the first place |
| 17:19.50 | levi | So, although they are theoretically equivalent in the set of computations they can be used to represent, they came at the idea from totally different directions, and the translation between the two is not necessarily trivial. |
| 17:21.00 | levi | Anyway, I suggest gaining a deeper understanding of the issues before bringing such arguments up in a flamewar, lest someone call you on it and make you look ignorant. :) |
| 17:23.50 | Lone_Wanderer | understanding? this is a flame war man! ;) |
| 17:23.59 | levi | (BTW, the concept of 'registers' comes from the von Neumann architecture) |
| 17:26.58 | Lone_Wanderer | *nods* |
| 17:28.46 | levi | Until LISP was created, programming languages were abstractions on top of the von Neumann architecture that represented the actual hardware interface. LISP was the first language to completely ignore the underlying architecture and instead built on top of a different model of computation and have the language implementation do the translation between fundamental models. |
| 17:30.15 | RyanE | levi: you might add also that *after* LISP was created, languages (other than LISP) *still are* merely abstractions on top of von Neumann architecture... |
| 17:30.35 | RyanE | well, abstractions on top of abstractions in most cases. |
| 17:30.49 | levi | RyanE: Not all of them, of course. Other languages are also based on the lambda calculus, or other computational models. |
| 17:31.33 | RyanE | right, but most 'conventional' or 'functional' languages are still based on generating something that runs on von Neumann architectures. |
| 17:32.23 | levi | I'm not talking about what they generate (which must be something that runs on a von Neumann architecture if you ever want to actually execute it), but the language semantics. |
| 17:32.46 | levi | Functional languages tend to be based on the semantics of the lambda calculus. |
| 17:33.10 | RyanE | right. I was just saying that it just sounds funny when you say 'until LISP', as if nothing has been created since. |
| 17:33.37 | Lone_Wanderer | What's the language that was designed to be difficult to program in? |
| 17:33.47 | RyanE | perl. ;) |
| 17:34.10 | Lone_Wanderer | Perl is that way on accident, not by design ;) |
| 17:34.11 | levi | Oh, I see. I only meant that LISP was the first to do so, not that others hadn't done so since or that all of them now are. |
| 17:34.18 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Do you mean INTERCAL? |
| 17:34.24 | Lone_Wanderer | possibly |
| 17:34.27 | Lone_Wanderer | I'll look it up |
| 17:34.28 | levi | There have since been lots of those. |
| 17:36.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Malebolge |
| 17:36.26 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (i=bradipo@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 17:36.40 | Lone_Wanderer | Malbolge rather |
| 17:37.10 | Lone_Wanderer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge_programming_language "designed to be the worst possible (most difficult and esoteric) programming language" |
| 17:37.22 | levi | I wouldn't claim it's the first or only such language, though. |
| 17:38.34 | tene | yeah, malbolge |
| 17:39.38 | Lone_Wanderer | just using it as an example of a turing-equivalent language that's not good to use for actual programming |
| 17:42.02 | levi | INTERCAL was the first intentionally obtuse programming language, though, and is still considered by many to be the canonical one. |
| 17:45.08 | levi | Funny anecdote: My operating systems professor was pulled in to teach from the business department. He wrote real-time operating systems for IBM back in the day, though. In class on monday, he expressed his sorrow that APL died out. |
| 17:46.03 | Lone_Wanderer | APL? |
| 17:46.14 | Lone_Wanderer | who wrote The Art of Computer Programming again? |
| 17:46.17 | Lone_Wanderer | nm I'll google it |
| 17:46.20 | levi | Donald Knuth. |
| 17:46.34 | levi | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_programming_language |
| 17:47.37 | RyanE | we did APL in CS330. |
| 17:48.48 | levi | RyanE: How'd you do all the funky characters? |
| 17:52.06 | RyanE | there was a 'translation' paper, so for each symbol, there was an ASCII representation. |
| 17:52.13 | RyanE | royal pain |
| 17:53.16 | *** join/#utah JoshH (n=josh@spanky.xmission.com) |
| 17:54.28 | levi | Sounds like it. |
| 18:12.26 | scott | re iCal of yesterday, checkout http://nat.org/2005/august/hula.html for a cool demo of the new calendar stuff in Hula. |
| 18:14.07 | Lone_Wanderer | man, I really need a form generator |
| 18:14.39 | Lone_Wanderer | One that's not made by Macromedia. |
| 18:19.16 | hans | generate web forms? |
| 18:23.28 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 18:24.46 | harleypig | What is hula? |
| 18:26.23 | harleypig | Ah ... www.hula-project.org |
| 18:26.39 | *** join/#utah ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) |
| 18:26.39 | *** mode/#utah [+o ChanServ] by irc.freenode.net |
| 18:27.00 | harleypig | Cool! How long has hula been around? |
| 18:27.08 | harleypig | And why haven't I heard about it, dangit! |
| 18:37.33 | scott | less than a year |
| 18:43.59 | graphyx | sounds like an exchange replacement. |
| 18:44.14 | graphyx | and what the world really needs is an open source exchange replacement. |
| 18:47.29 | neybar_work | lol |
| 18:47.54 | neybar_work | hula would be alot cooler in my opinion if it wasn't tied to its own MTA |
| 18:48.31 | scott | agreed 100% |
| 18:48.50 | scott | it's what keeps it from being deployed a whole lot more |
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| 18:51.27 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 18:59.23 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 19:02.49 | bonez39 | any mutt users? |
| 19:03.09 | bonez39 | I moved system to new hdd..and I can run mutt and it appears to send out mail, but I don't get any incoming.. |
| 19:04.48 | bonez39 | why would aptitude install want to REMOVE cupsys-bsd? |
| 19:08.25 | neybar_work | mmm, what flavor? |
| 19:08.32 | hans | vanilla |
| 19:08.55 | neybar_work | I had a really good home made lemon ice cream not too long ago. |
| 19:10.17 | graphyx | Lemon snow cones... |
| 19:11.49 | Supaplex | lemon tinted snow... |
| 19:12.03 | tene | lemon ice cream is awesome |
| 19:12.10 | *** join/#utah bucky (n=bucky@pdpc/supporter/active/bucky) |
| 19:40.43 | vontrapp | what the heck firefox! |
| 19:40.47 | vontrapp | can't resolve anything |
| 19:40.52 | vontrapp | nothing else is having issues |
| 19:41.04 | vontrapp | and i even exit out of it completely, restart, and still won't resolve |
| 19:41.17 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 19:41.22 | lukfugl | ~lart hans |
| 19:42.01 | vontrapp | does firefox do some kind of dns server caching? |
| 19:42.10 | lukfugl | ~lart vontrapp |
| 19:42.28 | vontrapp | ~travolta lukfugl |
| 19:42.29 | ibot | ACTION replaces lukfugl with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power |
| 19:42.47 | lukfugl | travolta? that's a new one :) |
| 19:42.56 | vontrapp | new to you maybe |
| 19:43.09 | vontrapp | shortly after you stopped being regular |
| 19:43.24 | lukfugl | vontrapp: me, regular? Ha, I wish |
| 19:43.29 | Lone_Wanderer | have some prunes, lukfugl they keep you regular. |
| 19:43.38 | vontrapp | wheat chex |
| 19:43.43 | hans | my doctor says mylanta |
| 19:43.47 | lukfugl | vontrapp: had them for breakfast :) |
| 19:44.10 | hans | so who wants to chip in to the buy hans the rails book fund? |
| 19:44.15 | lukfugl | anyways, the reason I'm not regular is that I can't afford to be... I'd never get any work done |
| 19:44.45 | hans | that's the problem with being a programmer. we admins get to say we are working when we're in #utah. :) |
| 19:44.52 | lukfugl | hans: If it's the "Buy Hans and Jacob a Rails Book Each" fund, I'll contribute |
| 19:45.46 | hans | hmm. maybe we can buy the combo. I get the pdf and you get the book |
| 19:49.08 | vontrapp | and what do i get? |
| 19:50.14 | lukfugl | watch out, they're soggy |
| 19:50.20 | vontrapp | ewww |
| 19:51.55 | levi | hans: Bah, what do you need a Rails book for? ;) |
| 19:52.51 | levi | Ew. |
| 19:53.05 | vontrapp | so who's taking that internet marketing class from Paul Allen? |
| 19:53.20 | hans | figure it's probably the best path to rails gurudom |
| 19:53.25 | levi | I suppose it would be handy to keep in the car in case I went camping and forgot to bring toilet paper or kindling. |
| 19:53.27 | hans | and rails is the wave now, and it's a fun wave for a change |
| 19:54.04 | levi | (The VB book, not the Rails book) |
| 19:55.48 | vontrapp | so for that class, i need a blog that keeps track of visiters and does comments |
| 19:56.07 | vontrapp | i have a bloxom setup, but i don't really like bloxom all that much |
| 19:56.14 | RyanE | which class requires a blog? |
| 19:56.14 | *** join/#utah bucky (n=bucky@pdpc/supporter/active/bucky) |
| 19:56.16 | levi | hans: I doubt you'd need a book to attain guruhood with a web framework. |
| 19:56.20 | vontrapp | internet marketing |
| 19:56.21 | lukfugl | vontrapp: roll your own in Rails ;) |
| 19:56.33 | vontrapp | lukfugl: yeah, that's what i'm thinking |
| 19:56.41 | vontrapp | but i still haven't done anything in rails |
| 19:57.03 | hans | levi: not necessarily, but I bet it's one of the quickest ways to get my head around all the parts of rails |
| 19:57.10 | hans | it's a nice framework, but it's still big |
| 19:57.13 | lukfugl | vontrapp: check the 10 minute demo. That's get you everything except the "keeps track of visiters[sic]" part, and that wouldn't be hard to add |
| 19:57.16 | levi | vontrapp: There's at least one tutorial that explains how to set up a simple blog with rails. |
| 19:57.16 | hans | as all frameworks tend to be |
| 19:58.08 | lukfugl | levi: And it's along the same lines as PCL or something like that... not necessary for guruhood, but a nice tool :) |
| 19:58.21 | levi | Of course, basic blog functionality is pretty darn easy. |
| 19:58.25 | bucky | http://rubyforge.org/search/?type_of_search=soft&words=blog&Search=Search |
| 19:58.33 | lukfugl | the PragProg rails book has as much to do with Agile programming and best practices as it does the framework itself |
| 19:58.59 | levi | OK, I've been convinced that hans should have someone buy him the book. :) |
| 19:59.15 | lukfugl | :) |
| 20:00.32 | hans | PCL? |
| 20:00.39 | hans | you are doing printing? |
| 20:00.56 | vontrapp | hans: Paper Clip Lover |
| 20:00.57 | levi | hans: I assumed he meant Practical Common Lisp. |
| 20:01.02 | lukfugl | levi: yes |
| 20:01.29 | lukfugl | hans: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ |
| 20:01.45 | levi | I now also have PAIP, which looks incredible. |
| 20:01.48 | Lone_Wanderer | that's a Lisp book, not Ruby |
| 20:01.58 | lukfugl | Practical AI Programming? |
| 20:02.11 | levi | lukfugl: Paradigms of AI Programming |
| 20:02.14 | Lone_Wanderer | paradigms |
| 20:02.18 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: I'm familiar with levi's biases, which is why I mentioned it ;) |
| 20:02.28 | Lone_Wanderer | :) |
| 20:02.31 | levi | It's a textbook by Peter Norvig. |
| 20:02.39 | Lone_Wanderer | Peter Seibel |
| 20:02.44 | Lone_Wanderer | oh wait... PAIP is Norvig? |
| 20:02.50 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Yes, PAIP is. |
| 20:02.54 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 20:03.04 | Lone_Wanderer | PCL is Seibel, I believe |
| 20:03.06 | vontrapp | "Get yer papes!" |
| 20:03.07 | hans | norvig cowrote my AI text |
| 20:03.13 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Yup. |
| 20:03.16 | levi | Norvig is the man. |
| 20:03.42 | levi | hans: You probably have his later AI book, which is more about AI (and more current) and less about Common Lisp. :) |
| 20:04.11 | hans | AI: a modern approach |
| 20:04.16 | hans | although only the first edition |
| 20:04.20 | hans | but it's still modern, as you can see. |
| 20:04.33 | levi | Indeed; it's in the name! |
| 20:04.50 | hans | ~lart jacob for bringing up junctions |
| 20:05.04 | levi | The UVSC AI class also uses AI:AMA |
| 20:05.09 | lukfugl | there been recent "discussion" here about junctions? :) |
| 20:05.26 | hans | very good bok |
| 20:05.28 | hans | book |
| 20:05.48 | levi | Not surprising to me, after having seen PAIP. |
| 20:05.58 | hans | for some reason my prof thinks it's hard to read and so writes up his notes and calls the book a reference. I don't know why, but he claims that's the feedback from previous students |
| 20:06.00 | levi | And other stuff Norvig has written. |
| 20:06.11 | hans | so I just read the book anywya |
| 20:06.22 | levi | hans: Maybe the previous students were dumb and/or lazy. |
| 20:06.28 | RyanE | or both! |
| 20:06.28 | hans | probably both |
| 20:06.30 | lukfugl | hans: I loved the book in 472, it was quite clear |
| 20:06.36 | lukfugl | err, 470 |
| 20:06.42 | lukfugl | 472 is machine learning, right? |
| 20:06.43 | hans | yeah, I wish all textbooks were like this one |
| 20:06.53 | levi | Norvig writes very clearly, but it ain't a 'Head First' book, to be sure. |
| 20:09.05 | levi | I just need more time to go through my books and do exercises. |
| 20:09.29 | hans | anybody that quotes the witch scene from mpathg to demonstrate bad logic can't be too bad |
| 20:10.06 | levi | I've also got a cool textbook pdf: Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming. |
| 20:10.16 | levi | It's supposed to be the new SICP. |
| 20:10.36 | levi | It uses the Oz language, though, which looks rather interesting so far. |
| 20:16.49 | levi | Oz is like the intersection of just about every programming paradigm under the sun. It supports functional, logic, imperative, constraint, and concurrent programming models. It can do both eager and lazy evaluation. I think it was developed in conjunction with the book. |
| 20:17.56 | levi | It's handy because you can use it to teach all of the above without having to introduce new languages and development environments for each one. |
| 20:18.20 | Lone_Wanderer | wow |
| 20:18.30 | Lone_Wanderer | so is it a teaching language or could you actually use it for things? |
| 20:19.35 | levi | You could use it for things, if you wanted to. It was designed for pedagogical purposes, but that doesn't necessarily limit its practicality too much. |
| 20:20.03 | Lone_Wanderer | You just used pedagogical in a sentence :) |
| 20:20.09 | Lone_Wanderer | By the way, how do you pronounce that? |
| 20:21.19 | levi | ped-ah-goj-ick-al |
| 20:21.35 | tene | Huh. |
| 20:21.43 | Lone_Wanderer | long o? |
| 20:21.44 | tene | I would have used a hard 'g' for both 'g's. |
| 20:22.08 | levi | Like goggles? |
| 20:22.16 | Lone_Wanderer | like "oh" |
| 20:22.22 | tene | yeah |
| 20:22.41 | tene | like "Just a sec, I need to put on my pedagoggles." |
| 20:22.49 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 20:22.58 | levi | But that'd be incorrect! ;) |
| 20:23.09 | tene | levi: That's why I asked. |
| 20:23.11 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd rather wear metagoggles. |
| 20:23.12 | tene | And Now I know. |
| 20:23.17 | tene | And knowledge is power! |
| 20:23.27 | hans | wow, my 10 month-old just pressed ctrl-alt-f2 (f2 is fn-2 on my happy hacker keyboard) |
| 20:23.28 | Lone_Wanderer | And knowing's half the battle. GI Joe! |
| 20:24.12 | vontrapp | or heigenglasses |
| 20:24.13 | tene | hans: I've thought about getting one of those. How do you like it? |
| 20:24.24 | hans | it's real nice |
| 20:24.33 | hans | if you program mostly with it |
| 20:25.05 | hans | or sysadmin or whatever. but if you need the pgdn/pgup keys a lot or the function keys more than occasionally, probably best not |
| 20:25.08 | tene | As opposed to, say, writing a novel or some such? |
| 20:25.12 | tene | ahh |
| 20:25.17 | hans | well, writing a novel probably would be ok too |
| 20:25.23 | hans | but if you spend your life in excel, it might be bad |
| 20:26.00 | hans | it's nice and compact, doubles as a usb hub, is high quality, etc. etc. |
| 20:26.16 | lukfugl | vontrapp: where'd the h come from? |
| 20:26.32 | vontrapp | i didn't remember exactly |
| 20:28.55 | vontrapp | gar, now firefox thinks i'm offline |
| 20:29.06 | levi | Anyway, you probably wouldn't use Oz to write a desktop app (currently it just has Tcl/Tk bindings), but you could certainly use it to write useful programs. |
| 20:30.49 | bucky | vontrapp, probably because of .dcop in KDE |
| 20:30.59 | vontrapp | not using kde |
| 20:31.17 | vontrapp | i thought everyone knew i was violently against all things K |
| 20:32.36 | hans | levi: compiled? Free/Libre? |
| 20:32.45 | tene | vontrapp: even... Kernels? |
| 20:32.56 | lukfugl | hans: in the gas thread? (reading it now) |
| 20:32.58 | tene | and... disKs? |
| 20:33.04 | vontrapp | tene: no, those are just kernels |
| 20:33.20 | vontrapp | and disks |
| 20:33.42 | hans | lukfugl: yeah |
| 20:33.50 | levi | hans: It runs on a virtual machine, it's cross-platform, and libre. |
| 20:34.31 | lukfugl | ha! I like your threat |
| 20:35.12 | vontrapp | i really need to get a system for having my mail stored locally |
| 20:42.39 | Lone_Wanderer | what are bucky balls? |
| 20:43.17 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: carbon molecules |
| 20:43.56 | levi | Named after Buckminster Fuller! |
| 20:44.09 | lukfugl | aka fullerene |
| 20:44.17 | lukfugl | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerene |
| 20:44.48 | *** join/#utah AgoraCart (n=AgoraCar@71-36-83-238.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:45.53 | levi | It's essentially the same shape as a soccer ball, i.e. a truncated icosahedron. 32 faces, 20 of which are regular hexagons and 12 of which are regular pentagons. |
| 20:48.04 | levi | The process of truncating icosahedrons is pretty cool. Each vertex is the connection point of 5 triangles, so you chop the tip of the vertex off and replace it with a pentagon. |
| 20:48.26 | levi | And you're left with a soccer ball! |
| 20:49.38 | levi | (if you're not familiar with 'icosahedron', it's the shape of a d20) |
| 20:52.24 | harleypig | What if he isn't familiar with d20? |
| 20:52.26 | harleypig | :> |
| 20:52.38 | lukfugl | 20-sided die |
| 20:53.06 | Lone_Wanderer | wow |
| 20:53.09 | harleypig | Can't a guy be a smart aleck anymore? |
| 20:53.21 | lukfugl | harleypig: :) |
| 20:53.24 | Lone_Wanderer | I managed to read a wikipedia article without following any links |
| 20:53.33 | lukfugl | Lone_Wanderer: congratulations :) |
| 20:53.38 | harleypig | No yak shaving?! I'm impressed! |
| 20:53.39 | lukfugl | I know thats hard for me, too |
| 20:54.30 | lukfugl | I had an interesting discussion the other day with someone who swore that the authoritative terms were "die" plural and "dice" singular |
| 20:54.58 | lukfugl | They told me to check the dictionary, so we did... together :) they were a little let down |
| 20:59.33 | RyanE | got it bass-ackwards, eh? |
| 21:00.43 | levi | Heh. |
| 21:01.16 | levi | Time to leave for school. |
| 21:06.45 | vontrapp | man firefox is being really slow and retarded today |
| 21:08.42 | vontrapp | ok, why would placing my public key in .ssh/autorized_keys not work? |
| 21:08.50 | vontrapp | target system is red hat |
| 21:10.10 | vontrapp | funny thing is, i have the key in root's .ssh/authorized_keys and root login works fine, but in my own home dir, it's not working |
| 21:10.22 | tene | err |
| 21:10.25 | tene | vontrapp: |
| 21:10.37 | tene | check spelling of authorized_keys |
| 21:11.20 | vontrapp | [von@www von]$ ls .ssh |
| 21:11.20 | vontrapp | authorized_keys |
| 21:11.21 | vontrapp | [von@www von]$ ls .ssh |
| 21:11.21 | vontrapp | authorized_keys |
| 21:11.27 | vontrapp | stupid lag |
| 21:11.31 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 21:11.36 | Maquis | ~lart sjansen |
| 21:11.41 | tene | "... my public key in .ssh/autorized_keys ..." is why I asked |
| 21:11.54 | vontrapp | just a typo |
| 21:11.56 | tene | yeah |
| 21:11.59 | tene | just checking |
| 21:12.04 | vontrapp | but good point, i did check it when you said it ;) |
| 21:12.21 | lukfugl | sjansen: just starting on plug, hasn't started here yet |
| 21:12.47 | sjansen | Well then let me start it. I was listening to the radio last night at it was driving me crazy, all the people blaming Bush. |
| 21:12.56 | lukfugl | vontrapp: diff -q ~root/.ssh/authorized_keys ~vontrapp/.ssh/authorized_keys |
| 21:13.15 | vontrapp | stupid bush! doesn't he know this hurricane is causing all kinds of problems for every american!! |
| 21:13.16 | sjansen | A hurricane hit yesterday. Bush hasn't made everything magically better today. He's a horrible president and probably the anti-christ! |
| 21:13.20 | hans | sjansen: duh. everything that has to do with oil is bush's fault |
| 21:13.46 | hans | i was wondering this morning what things would be like now if kerry had been elected |
| 21:13.58 | hans | would things not be much the same? |
| 21:14.07 | sjansen | Doesn't anyone realize this is the fault of the French? If they hadn't build New Orleans in such a stupid place to beging with, we wouldn't be it such a tough spot today! |
| 21:14.16 | hans | but would people be kerry-bashing, or would people just be wringing their hands? |
| 21:14.28 | neybar_work | lol |
| 21:14.36 | hans | hey but they have great jazz |
| 21:14.40 | hans | or had anyway |
| 21:14.48 | dataw0lf | hey, at least it finally got Bush off his vacation, am I right?? |
| 21:14.49 | harleypig | Their on a freakin' *DELTA* for heaven's sake. |
| 21:15.09 | vontrapp | they can go to nm to make jazz, there's a hurricane and nm only gets humid |
| 21:15.12 | dataw0lf | that guy spends more time on his ranch than most _real_ cowboys, it's good the guy is being forced to do a little work. |
| 21:15.32 | lukfugl | dataw0lf: don't tell me no other president has taken working vacations while in office |
| 21:15.43 | lukfugl | dataw0lf: he was in arizona and california when katrina hit |
| 21:15.55 | mheath | lukfugl, no other president has taken such long and frequent working vacations |
| 21:16.38 | dataw0lf | lukfugl: I'm not saying that. |
| 21:16.43 | dataw0lf | but, hey, compare him to Clinton. |
| 21:16.44 | vontrapp | is that really it? or is it just the media letting every american know every time the president takes a vacation and griping about it making it seem more and frequent |
| 21:16.47 | dataw0lf | Clinton was a workaholic. |
| 21:17.06 | *** join/#utah _wrykyn (n=ramanan@208-186-183-210.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 21:17.07 | neybar_work | sure, but look at who his wife is/was... :-D |
| 21:17.13 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: Of the 6 past presidents, republicans have taken the most 'working vacations' by a large margin. |
| 21:17.19 | *** part/#utah _wrykyn (n=ramanan@208-186-183-210.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 21:17.23 | lukfugl | dataw0lf: sources? stats? |
| 21:17.35 | sjansen | Oh, yes, a workaholic--if you count womanizing and tucking tail to run work. |
| 21:17.51 | synic | anyone use rdesktop? Is there a way to allow multiple connections at the same time? |
| 21:17.52 | dataw0lf | lukfugl: http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20031001.html |
| 21:18.03 | lukfugl | (the applause is for how quickly he started the war, not his comment) |
| 21:18.30 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Hey, we were in better shape with him in the presidency, chasing tail or not. |
| 21:18.38 | vontrapp | more republican presidents, maybe they'll get us more national holidays! |
| 21:19.00 | sjansen | Was that really his accomplishment? |
| 21:19.11 | dataw0lf | sjansen: some of it, yes. |
| 21:19.13 | vontrapp | circumstantial |
| 21:19.18 | neybar_work | yeah!!! stinking bush caused the dot.com bust. We have been hurting since the moment he came in office... |
| 21:19.21 | sjansen | Don't get me wrong, Bush has made some serious mistakes, but let's not start imagining that Clinton was all that great. |
| 21:19.29 | dataw0lf | Better than Bush. |
| 21:19.36 | dataw0lf | that's all _I_ am saying. |
| 21:19.56 | RyanE | dataw0lf: not bloody likely. :) |
| 21:20.14 | dataw0lf | RyanE: hehe regarding that's all I'm going to say? |
| 21:20.27 | dataw0lf | or that Clinton > Bush? |
| 21:20.47 | sjansen | Don't kid yourself. Bush wasn't responsible for 9/11 and Clinton wasn't responible for the tech boom. Those are the two defining differences between each presidency. |
| 21:20.50 | lukfugl | that's not the flamewar I signed up for |
| 21:21.01 | sjansen | Do you think Clinton would have done better at responding to 9/11? Gore? |
| 21:21.03 | RyanE | dataw0lf: I don't think you're capable of that being "all you're saying". :) |
| 21:21.18 | dataw0lf | sjansen: That's inconsequential. |
| 21:21.20 | sjansen | Do you think that Bush would have somehow prevented the tech boom? |
| 21:21.32 | RyanE | but I also don't think Clinton 'was all that', either. |
| 21:21.35 | dataw0lf | That, again, is inconsequential. |
| 21:22.01 | vontrapp | so the only thing that's consequential is that clinton > bush, not caring how that might possibly be |
| 21:22.12 | Bradipo | What I don't understand is why a president should have anything to do with the economy in the first place. |
| 21:22.23 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: No, but analyzing if Clinton would've done better during 9/11, yada yada, is inconsequential. |
| 21:22.32 | sjansen | Bush drew us into a war we probably shouldn't have entered. Gore/Clinton probably would have acted just like Span rolling over and showing terrorists that their attacks are effective. |
| 21:22.37 | dataw0lf | Because we can't say with any certainty what he would've done. |
| 21:22.44 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce_@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 21:22.45 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 21:22.51 | dataw0lf | sjansen: How have their attacks not been effective? |
| 21:23.13 | vontrapp | so if clinton > bush doesn't come from peachy times during his presidency and turbulent times now, where does that comparison draw validity? |
| 21:23.13 | sjansen | It hasn't given them what they want. |
| 21:23.15 | dataw0lf | sjansen: We walked right into Iraq, where they don't have to infilitrate our country. |
| 21:23.31 | sjansen | It's created a royal mess for us, yes, but it's also blown up in their face. |
| 21:23.34 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: Hey, Clinton never invaded Iraq. |
| 21:23.39 | dataw0lf | sjansen: No, it hasn't. |
| 21:23.43 | dataw0lf | They're getting exactly what the want. |
| 21:23.50 | dataw0lf | propaganda that the US is evil, and imperialistic. |
| 21:23.54 | dataw0lf | Drawing more to their cause. |
| 21:24.01 | dataw0lf | It's not blowing up in their face; it's working to their total benefit. |
| 21:24.03 | lars-ut | buying question: looking for 15 cheap new LCDs for office use - suggestions? Especially from those who have purchased recently... |
| 21:24.11 | dataw0lf | What? Young terrorists dying? When do they care? |
| 21:24.16 | dataw0lf | They WANT to die. |
| 21:24.26 | dataw0lf | Because they believe it'll allow them access to Heaven. |
| 21:24.39 | dataw0lf | So, how are they losing anything again, sjansen? |
| 21:24.44 | dataw0lf | Come again? |
| 21:24.48 | hans | lukfugl: of course it's the flamewar you signed up for. everything comes down to bush sux0rs |
| 21:25.00 | vontrapp | what about countries that don't want to "die" if they harbor terrorists? |
| 21:25.00 | dataw0lf | Bush does sux0rs, unfortunately. |
| 21:25.04 | dataw0lf | I'm not democratic or republican. |
| 21:25.08 | dataw0lf | But Bush indeed sux0rz. |
| 21:25.13 | dataw0lf | As does his administration. |
| 21:25.21 | Lone_Wanderer | wow |
| 21:25.25 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: Which ones are those? |
| 21:25.26 | Lone_Wanderer | dataw0lf the troll has arrived |
| 21:25.46 | *** join/#utah AbsolutZero (n=soren@cpe-24-209-252-159.cinci.res.rr.com) |
| 21:25.50 | lars-ut | Lone_Wanderer: I'm gonna disagree there. |
| 21:26.03 | lars-ut | but thanks for trolling by troll labeling |
| 21:26.04 | dataw0lf | Hey, if I don't agree and am a troll, fine. |
| 21:26.11 | dataw0lf | I'm just putting my opinion out there. |
| 21:26.16 | vontrapp | any country that might harbor terrorists |
| 21:26.23 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: Again, which ones are those? |
| 21:26.30 | vontrapp | i don't know |
| 21:26.32 | dataw0lf | That we've affected with the invasion of Iraq? |
| 21:26.35 | dataw0lf | Thank you. |
| 21:26.43 | dataw0lf | So, you have no proof that it has been effective at all. |
| 21:26.46 | *** part/#utah AbsolutZero (n=soren@cpe-24-209-252-159.cinci.res.rr.com) |
| 21:26.56 | vontrapp | do you know what countries harbor terrorists? |
| 21:26.59 | RyanE | dataw0lf: and you have no proof that it has not been effective. |
| 21:27.00 | dataw0lf | Yup. |
| 21:27.02 | dataw0lf | Syria. |
| 21:27.05 | dataw0lf | Saudia Arabia. |
| 21:27.08 | dataw0lf | Turkey. |
| 21:27.13 | dataw0lf | To name a few. |
| 21:27.14 | Jayce^ | yet another proof of the fragile link people have to reality |
| 21:27.24 | neybar_work | The largest problem with "The War on Terror" is not that we are involved in it, but that it isn't defined. The lack of definition about when it can end, or who our enemies are is what scares me. |
| 21:27.29 | dataw0lf | RyanE: Sure I do, I spent some time in Iraq, and I assure it hasn't been effective at all. |
| 21:27.37 | dataw0lf | neybar_work: I agree. |
| 21:27.53 | lars-ut | When are we going to see some terrorists attacks that destroy the Democratic & Republican parties? Now that would be effective. |
| 21:27.55 | dataw0lf | But, the thing is, how can you be effective with this vague 'terrorists are the enemy!' war? |
| 21:27.58 | dataw0lf | You can't. |
| 21:28.04 | dataw0lf | Now, we removed Saddam from power. |
| 21:28.08 | dataw0lf | A good thing, in some senses. |
| 21:28.09 | hans | sweet. I deem that out of control |
| 21:28.15 | dataw0lf | But the tradeoff wasn't worth it. |
| 21:28.40 | dataw0lf | We've completely destabilized the Middle East and given Islamic extremists cause to jump in. |
| 21:28.45 | dataw0lf | From Syria, Saudia Arabia, Iran, etc. |
| 21:28.50 | lars-ut | LCD suggestions anybody? |
| 21:29.06 | dataw0lf | Saddam had religious extremists under his thumb, terrorism wasn't likely to spark off in Iraq with him there. |
| 21:29.09 | neybar_work | lars-ut, how dare you try to divert our flamewar |
| 21:29.18 | vontrapp | the hp pavillion 15" 1920x1200 has a pretty sweet display |
| 21:29.20 | dataw0lf | So, by removing him from power, have we not given them what they want? |
| 21:29.34 | dataw0lf | A destabilized country with American soldiers as easy targets? |
| 21:29.43 | dataw0lf | A way to galvanize their youth? |
| 21:29.57 | lars-ut | neybar_wok: divert? I just figured we could do more than one thing at a time. I'm interested in both topics. |
| 21:29.59 | lukfugl | destabilized the middle east. This is the first year I've seen Israel actually concede to the Palestinians, Syria's withdrawn from Lebanon, but the middle east is destabilizing |
| 21:30.09 | sjansen | So WWII was a failure because a lot of people died at Normandy? |
| 21:30.25 | lars-ut | s/wok/work |
| 21:30.35 | RyanE | and we *did* destabilize the 'unifying' Third Reich in WWII... |
| 21:30.38 | dataw0lf | sjansen: That's probably the worst comparison I've ever heard. |
| 21:30.42 | Jayce^ | sjansen, if Bush sent them, it would be :) |
| 21:30.45 | lukfugl | lars-ut: at my work we've got LGs. Pretty nice. I wasn't involved in purchasing though |
| 21:30.48 | sjansen | And the Japan were successful because they wanted at atom bomb dropped on them to prove that the US was evil and their emperor was god? |
| 21:30.52 | vontrapp | Jayce^++ |
| 21:30.53 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Nazis had uniforms, they were a coalesced body. |
| 21:31.04 | dataw0lf | They were a political party. |
| 21:31.15 | dataw0lf | I like how everyone seems to think this is about Bush. |
| 21:31.29 | dataw0lf | If Kerry, Gore, whomever had invaded Iraq I'd still be complaining as loud. |
| 21:31.32 | neybar_work | Unless you are very vigilant in seeking out alternate news sources it is pretty hard to have a positive view of the war in Iraq. My father is there right now, and while things are definately not cheery, it also isn't as bad as the american media makes it out to be. |
| 21:31.37 | RyanE | somehow, we knew this would arrive at Nazis sooner rather than *later*... |
| 21:31.39 | lars-ut | thanks, lukfugl |
| 21:31.55 | dataw0lf | neybar_work: I was an Attack Pathfinder in both Iraq and Afghanistan, many, many friends there. It is bad. |
| 21:32.13 | lukfugl | RyanE: yep, Godwin's law |
| 21:32.23 | lukfugl | does that mean the wars over already? :) |
| 21:32.25 | lars-ut | dataw0lf: Don't forget about the post-surrender Nazi forces that formed a resistance and had 14 year-old snipers |
| 21:32.27 | vontrapp | was it on purpose? |
| 21:32.33 | emcnabb | lukfugl, I was just looking for the name of that |
| 21:32.48 | dataw0lf | lars-ut: that's typical, however. |
| 21:32.56 | Maquis | ~lart emcnabb |
| 21:32.57 | lars-ut | yes it is |
| 21:33.07 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, and yet I know several people (including a seal relative) who say the opposite of you.. |
| 21:33.22 | dataw0lf | Let's face it though, we didn't do anything for the war on terror except negatively impact our position by invading Iraq. |
| 21:33.28 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: What do they say? |
| 21:33.34 | dataw0lf | That it's getting better in Iraq? |
| 21:33.39 | lars-ut | Unfortunately, the 'typical' way in dealing with that type of threat isn't generally employed by our military now |
| 21:33.51 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, difficult, but it's made dramatic positive changes |
| 21:34.04 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: As for the living conditions of Iraqis, yes. |
| 21:34.13 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: NOT for the 'War on Terror' however. |
| 21:34.16 | dataw0lf | Which is what I'm arguing here. |
| 21:34.19 | Jayce^ | for instance the seal relative was in the hunting squads his first round, and bodyguard/political security the second |
| 21:34.35 | dataw0lf | I was in the hunting / weapons removal squads myself. |
| 21:35.01 | sjansen | Yes, Iraq actually going through the messy and difficult process of writing a constitution is a real win for islamic extremists. |
| 21:35.05 | dataw0lf | I wouldn't argue that the Iraqi people will, probably, be better off in the short term because of the invasion. |
| 21:35.39 | dataw0lf | sjansen: I'm not going to comment on that. Forcing a country to draft a constitution, in my eyes, isn't 'democratic', though. |
| 21:35.44 | dataw0lf | but that's me. |
| 21:36.04 | dataw0lf | forcing 'democracy' on a country is another thing I have a problem with as well. |
| 21:36.11 | dataw0lf | but again, that's me. |
| 21:36.15 | sjansen | The US telling Iraq to slow down and try to achieve concensus on the constitution is another horrible example of the US trying to impose it's will. |
| 21:36.38 | neybar_work | I think that we (us gov't) are actually pushing the iraqi's to hard, it took us several years and a lot of hard ship to come up with the constitution |
| 21:36.39 | dataw0lf | sjansen: The whole point is that we HAVE imposed our will on them, no? |
| 21:36.42 | dataw0lf | I mean, that's the whole point. |
| 21:36.50 | dataw0lf | Whether for better or worse? |
| 21:37.07 | sjansen | How dare we so blatently and transparently try to hide the fact that Iraq is a puppet govt. behind the establishment of Islam law. |
| 21:37.24 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Islamic law was banned in Iraq under Saddam. |
| 21:37.27 | dataw0lf | fyi. |
| 21:37.31 | emcnabb | fight fight fight! |
| 21:37.35 | dataw0lf | I'm not saying that we're not doing any good there. |
| 21:37.41 | vontrapp | America telling england to get lost and forcing a democracy on it's constituents? |
| 21:37.45 | hans | ~fight emcnabb |
| 21:37.46 | ibot | ACTION laughs as emcnabb reboots falcon.fugal.net sending hans into the aether |
| 21:37.57 | emcnabb | oh yeah |
| 21:38.02 | Jayce^ | only kinda banned... except when convenient to saddam |
| 21:38.06 | lukfugl | looks like emcnabb won that fight |
| 21:38.13 | lukfugl | ~fight hans |
| 21:38.14 | ibot | ACTION laughs as hans reboots host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net sending lukfugl into the aether |
| 21:38.14 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: We took it upon ourselves to revolt, we weren't invaded by France, then told to draft up that constitution. |
| 21:38.27 | lukfugl | looks like ibot always goes for the underdog |
| 21:38.45 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: Doubtful. Saddam wanted no part of religion at _all_. That's why terrorists weren't harbored in Iraq. |
| 21:39.26 | Jayce^ | not at all... yes it wasx a secular government, but he pushed many aspects of islam to promote himself.. heck, look at their old flag.. know why there were 3 stars on it? |
| 21:39.29 | sjansen | We were also very, very wrong to remove the Japanese god/emperor and force them to establish democracy. |
| 21:39.52 | Jayce^ | because early on, he felt he was creating a new islamic revolution with syria and egypt... that was the symbol of their alliance |
| 21:39.53 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Japan attacked first, and was allied with the Nazi party with whom we were at war again. |
| 21:39.57 | dataw0lf | You keep on making bad analogies. |
| 21:39.59 | dataw0lf | Try again. |
| 21:40.25 | sjansen | My bad, I'm sorry, I forgot that our relations with Iraq were going so swimmingly. |
| 21:40.28 | RyanE | I think sjansen was pointing out that after the war, we didn't leave the emperor intact. that Democracy was forced on them. |
| 21:40.35 | Jayce^ | we weren't at war with the nazi's when japan attacked.. |
| 21:40.58 | RyanE | we weren't officially at war with Japan when they attacked... |
| 21:41.06 | RyanE | since the communique arrived 30 minutes late. |
| 21:41.37 | dataw0lf | I think any comparison with Japan are irrelevant anyways. |
| 21:42.07 | dataw0lf | Japan did not experience the same insurgency or surrounding enemies as we're experiencing in Iraq. |
| 21:42.08 | vontrapp | i think iraq is irrelevent :-P |
| 21:42.36 | Jayce^ | sure, they got nuked twice after several years of starvation. |
| 21:42.38 | neybar_work | so any parallelisms to past history are irrelevent to this conversation? It seems like quite a bit of WWII esspecially the cleanup is useful in this conversation |
| 21:42.52 | sjansen | yes, because relations with China and Russia were so good |
| 21:42.55 | dataw0lf | neybar_work: 2 entirely separate situations. |
| 21:43.06 | Jayce^ | heck, even the rebuilding of the state/govt of germany and japan... at the time both were declared absolute failures |
| 21:43.19 | vontrapp | how are we supposed to learn from history if it's irrelevent? |
| 21:43.38 | dataw0lf | I'm not saying that history is irrelevant. |
| 21:43.41 | dataw0lf | Look at Vietnam. |
| 21:43.50 | dataw0lf | However you might dislike THAT analogy, it's probably better. |
| 21:43.52 | dataw0lf | Vague enemies. |
| 21:43.55 | dataw0lf | Insurgencies. |
| 21:44.02 | dataw0lf | Ideologies. |
| 21:44.02 | sjansen | Us attacking first. |
| 21:44.19 | sjansen | Now you're doing a decent job of defending your position. |
| 21:44.26 | Jayce^ | it's always nicer when you can ignore that history which doesnt' agree with you... :) |
| 21:44.33 | vontrapp | agreed, that probably is a better analogy |
| 21:44.46 | sjansen | Call Iraq a failure is too early. Calling it too similar to Vietnam is immediately apparent to anyone being honest. |
| 21:45.00 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Now I agree on both points. |
| 21:45.17 | dataw0lf | In the thread of calling Iraq a failure of establishing a democracy there and long term benefits anyway. |
| 21:45.29 | vontrapp | so we learn, uphold YOUR point instead of tearing down the other |
| 21:45.30 | dataw0lf | But I think it's fair to call it a failure on the war on terror. |
| 21:45.47 | neybar_work | not if it isn't defined it's not... :) |
| 21:45.55 | vontrapp | hehe |
| 21:46.03 | dataw0lf | I thought I defined my position fairly well. |
| 21:46.10 | sjansen | There have been failed battles in the war, but the war isn't over. |
| 21:46.15 | dataw0lf | Bush made a mistake of going into Iraq in regards to this quasi War on Terror. |
| 21:46.17 | vontrapp | you defined the war on terror as undefined |
| 21:46.30 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: Has anyone defined it? |
| 21:46.37 | Bradipo | My favorite action in the ``war against terror'' is the searching of people's bags in New York and New Jersey, recently enacted... Let's see, there are 3 million people using the transit system, what are the odds of finding that bomb? |
| 21:46.51 | vontrapp | neybar_work was in jest, how can you fail in an undefined game? |
| 21:46.53 | sjansen | A number of good things have come out of Iraq. In my opinion, the most important is showing that unlike Spain we're not going to roll over. |
| 21:46.55 | Bradipo | But the people think it will help. |
| 21:47.22 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Have there been more attacks on Spain because they 'rolled over' ? |
| 21:47.32 | dataw0lf | And do you think the American soldier body count is really worth it? |
| 21:47.35 | dataw0lf | as it steadily climbs? |
| 21:47.54 | sjansen | You're right. We should also start paying kidnappers so that they stop kidnapping. |
| 21:48.24 | dataw0lf | sjansen: No, but we shouldn't nuke a house that contains former kidnappers who had nothing to do with the current kidnappers. |
| 21:48.29 | vontrapp | it's a war, there's going to be casualties |
| 21:48.37 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: that's easy to say. |
| 21:48.53 | vontrapp | that's why i said it :) |
| 21:49.01 | mheath | *Sigh* It's a war that we'll never win. |
| 21:49.15 | sjansen | and that's why I think seeing real action should be a modern requirement of being president |
| 21:49.19 | mheath | America has made itself an integral part ofa region where problems like this have been going on for thousands of years |
| 21:49.28 | dataw0lf | Anyways, I hope I didn't sound _too_ irrational or get on someone's nerves _too_ much, but I have to fight some fires. |
| 21:49.34 | sjansen | It's easy to send soldiers off to die. It's harder to do it when you've seen the result up close. |
| 21:49.51 | dataw0lf | sjansen: I _absolutely_ agree. |
| 21:49.54 | dataw0lf | But I gotta go. |
| 21:49.57 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@64.0.192.254) |
| 21:50.17 | vontrapp | are we done then :( |
| 21:50.23 | AgoraCart | History shows we will never win it. IEDs are killing our fellers.. not down right war as we are traditionally accomstom to in the last 100 or so years |
| 21:50.38 | sjansen | lukfugl: We can make fun of anyone stupid enough to buy an SUV and complain about gas prices. |
| 21:51.01 | hans | we can detest the UTA |
| 21:51.06 | lukfugl | (thanks for participating, not for bowing out) |
| 21:51.09 | sjansen | AgoraCart: Your right. That's why we lost WWII because it wasn't faught the same wasy as WWI. |
| 21:51.10 | hans | btw, las cruces has a nice little bus system |
| 21:51.10 | Jayce^ | AgoraCart, thankfully, this time we are attempting to deal with things like IED's and such, instead of the way things went in vietname |
| 21:51.11 | vontrapp | or we can give vontrapp a cookie for driving a 40+mpg car :) |
| 21:51.15 | lukfugl | ~lart UTA |
| 21:51.25 | hans | I get to school in 6.5 minutes |
| 21:51.42 | hans | for $.25 a ride, or $7.50 a month |
| 21:51.43 | sjansen | AgoraCart: And come to think of it, WWI was very different from the revoutionary war. That must be why we lost that one too. |
| 21:51.44 | mheath | I get to work in 45 minutes :( |
| 21:51.51 | mheath | er, I used to |
| 21:52.09 | Jayce^ | sjansen, I have an SUV, I can complain about gas prices (well aspects of it), without hypocrisy... why, because I know how much I use, and that I complain about the overall price, not the amount I pay.. |
| 21:52.37 | mheath | sjansen, he's reffering to the fact that all previous wars were won and lost by direct combat |
| 21:52.39 | sjansen | Jayce^: Yup. You couldn't possibly have fit all four of your family members in a car. |
| 21:52.48 | lukfugl | Jayce^: amen |
| 21:52.48 | mheath | Not by random civilians walking up to you and exploding. |
| 21:52.53 | neybar_work | I think that we desperately need more research in high milage vehicles, but to the general public it doesn't make any financial sense right now. You are going to pay a premium for a moderately efficient vehicle, and it will take you quite a long time to recoup that cost in gas savings |
| 21:53.12 | hans | Jayce^: that would be nice, but even some simple intelligence about routes would help tremendously |
| 21:53.20 | lukfugl | hans: amen |
| 21:53.23 | mheath | neybar_work, er.....ever heard of a motorcycle? |
| 21:53.40 | lukfugl | but trax in Utah county would cut our vehicle gas expenses at least in half |
| 21:53.43 | neybar_work | yeah I heard of one... my wife won't let me near one :) |
| 21:53.47 | Jayce^ | sjansen, we do use the car when it's just us 4, but it usually isn't |
| 21:54.20 | sjansen | mheath: Oh, yes, you're right. The bombing of dresden didn't happen. We still go to war by lining up and firing at each other. And of course, this is the first time we've ever experience guerilla warfare. |
| 21:54.26 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, problem is, trax costs *soo* much more than it makes right now |
| 21:54.47 | Bradipo | Jayce^: Isn't that true of most programs though? |
| 21:55.13 | Jayce^ | sjansen, see, we normally have either neighbors + kids, or dog + extended family with us, hence the extra seats.. |
| 21:55.17 | mheath | sjansen, guerilla warfare is organized units firing at you from the trees, not civilians blowing up randomly next to you. |
| 21:55.19 | hans | las cruces has 9 routes |
| 21:55.39 | Jayce^ | plus, often going into areas where a van wouldnt' do well.. or pulling things a van can't |
| 21:55.41 | RyanE | Jayce^, that's why we had to go to the suburban. |
| 21:55.43 | hans | it's the second largest city in new mexico, which I figure puts it about on par with provo+orem in size |
| 21:55.46 | mheath | sjansen, say we had captured Germany near the end of WWII, but German citizens kept walking up to our troops and blowing up |
| 21:55.48 | hans | land size anyway |
| 21:55.56 | hans | (new mexico sprawls even more than utah) |
| 21:56.03 | RyanE | the van won't: 1) pull a trailer 2) haul more than 7 people or 3) go up the mountain. |
| 21:56.04 | sjansen | mheath: And I'm saying that because we've never adapted before we're obviously incapable of adapting. |
| 21:56.05 | AgoraCart | guerilla warfare is i9nsurgents of any type... most effective when they can run and fight again |
| 21:56.11 | Jayce^ | mheath, wrong totally.. guerilla warware is explicitely not organized in nature like that |
| 21:56.26 | Jayce^ | RyanE, Tahoe here (suburban was just a little more than we wanted to pay) |
| 21:56.32 | hans | their bus system is able to get you to interesting places in a reasonable amount of time. transfers are well-coordinated |
| 21:56.40 | RyanE | Jayce^, how may does it seat? |
| 21:56.41 | hans | connecticut was even better at it |
| 21:56.48 | hans | uta is a joke |
| 21:56.57 | mheath | Jayce^, so we don't have units, divisions, squadrons, companies? |
| 21:57.06 | mheath | Our men don't communicate by radio? |
| 21:57.11 | mheath | They don't stay in organized groups? |
| 21:57.12 | hans | how many routes are going through utah county and yet you still can't get anywhere useful in a decent amount of time |
| 21:57.14 | neybar_work | hans, it is worse than a joke. it is completely useless in my opinion |
| 21:57.19 | mheath | Guerilla warfare is all about being disorganized?" |
| 21:57.34 | Jayce^ | RyanE, it's the exact same as a suburban overall (engine, etc) but the back seat is behind the rear axle, instead of on top, and about 20" shorter, maybe less |
| 21:57.44 | Jayce^ | little less room overall |
| 21:58.20 | bonez39 | I think I have some disc corruption....I am running on /dev/hde...and the corruption, I believe, is on /dev/hdb... |
| 21:58.22 | Jayce^ | mheath, no, you stated that guerilla warfare was organized units, etc... which it isn't |
| 21:58.33 | bonez39 | can I run fsck on /dev/hdb to check it and clean up any problems? |
| 21:58.39 | sjansen | mheath: You're intentionally being stupid. |
| 21:59.08 | AgoraCart | dataw0lf: who were yuou with while in Iraq? |
| 21:59.12 | lukfugl | Jayce^: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla |
| 21:59.32 | lukfugl | particularly "Guerrilla warfare operates with small, mobile and flexible combat groups called cells, without a front line." |
| 22:00.03 | RyanE | AgoraCart: dataw0lf has bowed out of the conversation, and possibly gone to get some work done, but I believe he was with the Pathfinders. |
| 22:00.04 | AgoraCart | revolutionary war in our own country was much like guerrilla warfar in some parts of the action |
| 22:00.15 | mheath | lukfugl, thank you :) |
| 22:00.21 | AgoraCart | RyanE: tahnks |
| 22:00.41 | hans | vontrapp: thanks! |
| 22:00.45 | hans | ~botsnack |
| 22:00.45 | ibot | aw, gee, hans |
| 22:00.48 | *** part/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:01.13 | sjansen | Meaning, of course, that guerilla warfare requires that everyone wear uniforms and no civilian ever participate as a combatant. |
| 22:01.20 | lukfugl | waddid vontrapp give you, hans, and can I have some? |
| 22:01.23 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, was referring to mheath stating that IED's etc weren't a part of guerilla warfare.. |
| 22:01.54 | vontrapp | where's my cookie? |
| 22:01.55 | mheath | sjansen, oh, your right...... |
| 22:02.04 | mheath | We lost in vietnam entirely because of their amazing military effort |
| 22:02.11 | mheath | their military strategy |
| 22:02.15 | lukfugl | Jayce^: ah, well I was responding to "mheath, no, you stated that guerilla warfare was organized units, etc... which it isn't" |
| 22:02.19 | Jayce^ | *beep* wrong again.. |
| 22:02.27 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, yeah, hard to get the full thing out at once :) |
| 22:02.49 | dataw0lf | AgoraCart: Sorry, fighting fires here. I was a 19d (cavalry scout). Because I attended Air Assault and Pathfinder schools, I was in a small Attack Pathfinder squad during both combatative experiences (Afghanistan and Iraq). |
| 22:02.58 | mheath | sjansen, theres a difference between military warfare (which is what guerilla warfare is) and civilian insurgency. |
| 22:03.04 | mheath | I should hope we learned this from vietnam |
| 22:03.08 | Jayce^ | yes, we had some *lousy* generals who couldn't deal with guerilla warfare, but a large part was also because of the neutering of any real attack ability in most cases |
| 22:03.14 | sjansen | Jayce^: I think you missed the point were mheath adopted my tactic. He was being sarcastic. |
| 22:03.23 | dataw0lf | mheath: What are you talking about? Do you know the definition of 'guerilla warfare' ? |
| 22:04.26 | sjansen | Arguably, the biggest reason we lost vietnam is that we tied the hands of our soldiers never trying to make them fight a politically correct war instead of recognizing the fact that war is messy. |
| 22:04.29 | mheath | dataw0lf: guerilla warfare is a style of military warfare. Thats all I meant by that. |
| 22:04.44 | mheath | I'm trying to say that theres a distinction between civilian insurgency and guerilla warfare |
| 22:04.54 | dataw0lf | there two completely different terms. |
| 22:04.58 | sjansen | In so far as we deny reality in Iraq, we are doomed to repeat Vietnam. |
| 22:05.02 | mheath | because several people seem intent on categorizing civilian insurgency as guerilla warfare |
| 22:05.09 | AgoraCart | prob in vietnam is you had generals in white houses dictating tatics (not strategy as they should) to commands thousands of miles away. best thing was to pull the phone cord from whitehouse and let the generals be generals that were in *nam |
| 22:05.10 | dataw0lf | civilian insurgencies often use guerilla warfare to accomplish their goals. |
| 22:05.21 | dataw0lf | and they aren't civilians once they use guerilla warfare. |
| 22:05.23 | dataw0lf | they're the enemy. |
| 22:05.38 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, agreed on that.. |
| 22:05.53 | mheath | dataw0lf, no, they're criminals. |
| 22:06.03 | dataw0lf | mheath: No. They're the enemy. |
| 22:06.07 | dataw0lf | See ROEs. |
| 22:06.25 | dataw0lf | Once you engage a military force, you are targeted as an enemy. |
| 22:06.29 | dataw0lf | You're not a criminal. |
| 22:06.42 | dataw0lf | You've fulfilled a rule of engagement. |
| 22:06.46 | dataw0lf | And will be engaged with deadly force. |
| 22:06.48 | Jayce^ | criminals combatant vs enemy combatant is a 20th century manufactured concept.. |
| 22:07.04 | mheath | dataw0lf, so if I go and start shooting at the national guard armory near here, I'll be treated like a hostile military enemy? |
| 22:07.09 | mheath | Rather than a criminal? |
| 22:07.15 | dataw0lf | mheath: Depends on their ROEs |
| 22:07.18 | AgoraCart | either way, I'm pointing my gun atcha |
| 22:07.21 | Jayce^ | mheath, until you are shot or apprehended, yeah.. |
| 22:07.40 | dataw0lf | I'm pretty sure that their ROE has 'if fired upon, shoot to kill' |
| 22:08.04 | dataw0lf | Now, if you're causing damage to government property, you'll probably not be engaged with deadly force. |
| 22:08.09 | dataw0lf | Especially on American soil. |
| 22:08.22 | mheath | dataw0lf, I went through a gun safety class used by Navy MAAs.... |
| 22:08.28 | dataw0lf | You'll be engaged with suitable force for the situation, however. |
| 22:08.37 | mheath | I know Navy MAA's are trained to use deadly force as a last resort, even when dealing with deadly force. |
| 22:08.41 | dataw0lf | mheath: And I've shot people according to ROEs. And guarded armories, both domestic and abroad. |
| 22:08.51 | dataw0lf | And I'm telling you right now that if you shot at a _soldier_ you'd be killed. |
| 22:09.15 | dataw0lf | I can tell you that if you shot me I'd lock and load and put a .223 round through your chest. |
| 22:09.23 | dataw0lf | shot at me* |
| 22:09.46 | AgoraCart | I prefer 308 with scope that be my specialty |
| 22:10.08 | Jayce^ | .30-06 :) but yeah, not a chance using it close range :) |
| 22:10.09 | mheath | dataw0lf, then I'd be taken to the hospital, and charged with a criminal offense |
| 22:10.11 | dataw0lf | .223, perfect complement of range, accuracy, and putting down power. |
| 22:10.21 | dataw0lf | mheath: But you'd be engaged as THE ENEMY. |
| 22:10.21 | Jayce^ | mm, tumbly rounds :) |
| 22:10.27 | dataw0lf | per their Rules of Engagement. |
| 22:10.41 | mheath | dataw0lf, we were talking about classification, not how someones engaged. |
| 22:10.41 | dataw0lf | mheath: Even on domestic soil. |
| 22:10.49 | mheath | Civilians are civilians, even if they fight. |
| 22:11.00 | dataw0lf | mheath: I've taken 'civilians' as EPWs |
| 22:11.02 | sjansen | Why are we arguing about this instead of making fun of Jayce^ for driving an SUV? |
| 22:11.03 | neybar_work | not once they pick up a gun and start shooting |
| 22:11.05 | hans | and enemies are enemies, even if they're civilians |
| 22:11.25 | dataw0lf | and a dead civilian is dead. |
| 22:11.34 | dataw0lf | whether or not he or she's 'civilian' |
| 22:11.38 | dataw0lf | or using 'guerilla warfare' |
| 22:11.59 | dataw0lf | btw, if you shot at me you wouldn't be taken to the hospital. You'd be dead. |
| 22:12.05 | dataw0lf | Geneva convention. |
| 22:12.07 | dataw0lf | Shoot to kill. |
| 22:12.09 | dataw0lf | Not to wound. |
| 22:12.49 | mheath | dataw0lf, MAAs/MPs would be the ones firing if I was to break into a fort/base/armory/etc. and start attacking people |
| 22:12.50 | vontrapp | ~shoot mheath |
| 22:12.51 | ibot | ACTION shoots mheath in the ear with a spitwad! |
| 22:12.59 | mheath | And they shoot to wound, not to kill. |
| 22:13.06 | neybar_work | heh, if you are wonded in a war it was generally by mistake, not by intent |
| 22:13.31 | dataw0lf | mheath: No, they shoot to kill. |
| 22:13.39 | dataw0lf | Noone in the military shoots to wound. |
| 22:13.51 | dataw0lf | center of mass. |
| 22:14.12 | dataw0lf | and, most likely, it wouldn't be an MP firing on you. |
| 22:14.16 | dataw0lf | It'd be some private on guard. |
| 22:14.17 | dataw0lf | fyi. |
| 22:14.33 | sjansen | mheath: Also believes that he can create something better than RPM. That creating yet another Linux distro is a good use of time. And that GNU Hurd is the real future. Arguing with his is fun, but at a certain point you gotta change the subject. |
| 22:14.47 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Heh. Point taken. |
| 22:14.51 | sjansen | s/mheath: Also/mheat also/ |
| 22:14.56 | dataw0lf | s/RPM/deb |
| 22:15.19 | sjansen | bah, stupid nick completion |
| 22:16.04 | hans | sjansen: make clean! |
| 22:16.18 | sjansen | heh |
| 22:16.20 | hans | what was that anyway? You never answered, that I remember |
| 22:16.29 | sjansen | an xchat plugin |
| 22:16.43 | hans | well, at least it was related to xchat |
| 22:16.56 | mheath | sjansen, I've worked on ideas for a distro because today's distros are fundamentally flawed if Linux is to ever truly suceed in the desktop market. |
| 22:17.26 | mheath | And my ideas have primarily included large amounts of additional system and desktop software, not just packaging other peoples software. |
| 22:18.10 | sjansen | I've learned to be leery of any statements containing superlatives like "fundamentally". They generally mean that any ensuing debate will only be good for entertainment. |
| 22:18.43 | dataw0lf | I think there's one 'fundamental' problem in mheath's ideas. |
| 22:18.46 | dataw0lf | Him. |
| 22:18.48 | dataw0lf | ho! |
| 22:18.48 | dataw0lf | burn! |
| 22:20.12 | lukfugl | Is it possible to use $ENV variables in the arguments to a 'use'? |
| 22:20.22 | AgoraCart | turn my back and the topic is back to back to normal... wowzer |
| 22:20.46 | hans | lukfugl: why not? |
| 22:20.57 | lukfugl | My first thought is "No", since 'use' statements are processed at compile time as opposed to run time |
| 22:20.57 | neybar_work | lukfugl, I haven't tried it, but you would need to put the use or require in a BEGIN {} block. |
| 22:21.22 | lukfugl | but then again, wouldn't $ENV (as opposed to other lexical variables) be available at compile timE? |
| 22:21.53 | lukfugl | neybar_work: well, a 'use' translates to a require in and BEGIN block anyways (with a little extra magic) |
| 22:22.08 | lukfugl | which is why the 'use' is processed at compile time |
| 22:22.13 | neybar_work | right |
| 22:23.24 | neybar_work | lukfugl, you can also just put the use statement in main after you've started processing |
| 22:23.41 | goozbach | nalgas I say |
| 22:23.41 | sjansen | mheath: A tip. If you wanted a take a more effective shot back at me, you could point out that "sjansen is only really good at criticizing and writing witticism; critics never built anything" |
| 22:24.17 | lukfugl | neybar_work: yes, but if it's a use, it'll still translate to a BEGIN block, so it'll still happen at compile time |
| 22:24.20 | lukfugl | won't it? |
| 22:25.11 | neybar_work | I'm not sure about that, but I know that you can do a require "module" at any time in your code |
| 22:25.53 | lukfugl | neybar_work: require yes. And that require won't happen until run time. But a use is slightly different |
| 22:26.11 | lukfugl | you can put it anywhere, but IIUC it gets processed at compile time, not run time |
| 22:26.20 | mheath | Sorry for working on a Linux distro. I just think theres something wrong when I don't feel comfortable handing an install disk or LiveCD to your random computer user and saying "Here, try this." |
| 22:28.45 | sjansen | Well, it's that time again. You've wasted another fine hour hanging out on #utah, but it's time to move on. Join us tomorrow when we debate the finer points of emacs versus notepad. |
| 22:31.03 | goozbach | a single thread with 65 posts... |
| 22:31.22 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 22:31.40 | sjansen | Okay, I know you're all probably disappointed to see me again so soon, but I just had to share this link: |
| 22:31.40 | goozbach | nice try sjansen but you can't leave |
| 22:31.53 | sjansen | http://squeedlyspooch.com/blog/archives/000607.html |
| 22:32.44 | sjansen | o/~ Welcome to the hotel goozbach... ~/o |
| 22:33.08 | lukfugl | argh, my squuedly spooch! |
| 22:35.41 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 22:38.16 | goozbach | if you're a dude... and you're already doing pilaties... whats wrong with dancing as well |
| 22:38.19 | goozbach | ? |
| 22:38.53 | vontrapp | goozbach: are you a dancer? |
| 22:47.41 | lars-ut | lukfugl: squuedly spooch? _that_ was a nice Zim reference. |
| 22:47.46 | lars-ut | My organs! |
| 22:48.16 | lukfugl | lars-ut: it was the url of the pilates post |
| 22:48.32 | lukfugl | but, yes, I did get the reference (which is why I made it :) |
| 22:48.36 | lars-ut | Dark Harvest ep, right? |
| 22:48.38 | lukfugl | ~emulate gir |
| 22:48.41 | ibot | dooom doooom doom |
| 22:48.43 | lukfugl | lars-ut: yup |
| 22:48.48 | lukfugl | ~emulate gaz |
| 22:48.50 | ibot | He stole my GameSlave and now he's gonna pay. |
| 22:48.58 | lukfugl | ~emulate lukfugl |
| 22:49.06 | lars-ut | ~emulate Dib |
| 22:49.08 | ibot | See Gaz, to defeat my enemy I must study my enemy, then become my enemy, then move in with my enemy, then wear my enemies clothes, then... |
| 22:49.11 | lukfugl | aww, ibot doesn't know how to emulate me |
| 22:50.06 | tene | ibot: be lukfugl |
| 22:50.23 | lars-ut | ~emulate cocofang |
| 22:50.34 | lukfugl | lars-ut: I think that one's a stretch :) |
| 22:50.43 | vontrapp | ~cocofang |
| 22:50.44 | ibot | i heard cocofang is an actual vampire, just as Frankenchokey is an actual franken... thing! |
| 22:50.48 | lars-ut | ~emulate Bill |
| 22:50.49 | ibot | Come on, Fang! Let's dance! |
| 22:51.05 | lars-ut | lukfugl: a stretch, you saY? |
| 22:51.14 | vontrapp | ~emulate count cocofang |
| 22:51.28 | lukfugl | heh |
| 22:52.42 | lars-ut | need to add Prof Membrane as well |
| 22:52.58 | *** join/#utah drewbono (n=andrew@128.187.236.27) |
| 22:53.17 | lukfugl | I'm making... TOAST! |
| 22:56.18 | lukfugl | hmmm, well it looks like I'll just have to switch from the candy of import to an explicit method call on my module. sigh (in reference to trying to use $ENV{...} as an argument to the use statement) |
| 22:56.18 | goozbach | ~spel pathetic |
| 22:56.32 | lukfugl | pathetic looks right to me |
| 22:56.36 | lukfugl | ~spell pathetic |
| 22:56.43 | lukfugl | ~spell spel |
| 22:56.45 | lukfugl | :) |
| 22:56.45 | goozbach | ~spel /window 21 |
| 22:57.01 | lukfugl | goozbach: ick :) |
| 22:57.13 | goozbach | ~spel hopless |
| 22:57.14 | ibot | G-O-O-Z-B-A-C-H |
| 22:57.20 | lukfugl | someone on a few toomany channels? |
| 22:57.37 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:57.48 | goozbach | lukfugl: that's just the halfway point |
| 22:58.10 | goozbach | about 2/3rds are /msg windows anyhow |
| 23:02.14 | goozbach | now I'm down to 16 |
| 23:02.40 | lukfugl | goozbach: pardon my IRC ignorance, but I've been curious... how do you close the /msg windows? |
| 23:02.50 | vontrapp | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:02.53 | lukfugl | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:02.57 | lukfugl | ah |
| 23:03.04 | hans | it's client-dependant |
| 23:03.26 | lukfugl | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:03.55 | tene | I like the /wc alias |
| 23:04.40 | lukfugl | tene: nifty |
| 23:04.52 | hans | ~hug tene |
| 23:04.54 | ibot | ACTION hugs tene |
| 23:07.30 | vontrapp | yay |
| 23:28.37 | *** join/#utah ECS (n=ecs@byu290933wks.byu.edu) |
| 23:31.16 | Bradipo | hans: Di dyou actually do it? |
| 23:31.35 | Bradipo | Is reply-to gone? |
| 23:31.37 | Bradipo | I don't believe it... |
| 23:31.47 | Bradipo | My MUA must be broken. |
| 23:31.58 | Bradipo | Nope... |
| 23:47.33 | sjansen | http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40076 |
| 23:50.37 | harleypig | Here's a new one: This kid asks his mom why I look the way I do. Kid's mom says "Because he's a mennonite dear." |
| 23:50.38 | harleypig | :D |
| 23:52.13 | sjansen | HA! |