irclog2html for #utah on 20050812

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02:29.25skel_homehey, I was trying to setup freenx and was wondering if anyone could point me to any precise howtos
02:29.39skel_homeparticularly for debian but anything would be appreciated =]
02:30.20skel_homeI think I've got it installed and running.. but I don't see anything that stands out in netstat..
02:30.38skel_homebeen trying to connect with nxdesktop.. not sure if thats right
02:30.39skel_homethanks =]
02:57.42skel_homeheheh =]
02:57.58Maquisi dropped him an IM... he could be back sometime soon
02:58.06Maquisi'll push him this way
02:58.14Maquisin the mean-time, someone else might be able to help
02:58.16skel_homeI think I just got it working =D
02:58.24Maquisi only tend to know who to go to... :)
02:58.26Maquiscool!
02:59.57skel_homewow
03:00.03skel_homethis is very fast
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04:25.36levi_Good evening.
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05:14.56Supaplexlo
05:18.02levi_Heya.
05:19.22Supaplexsup
05:21.56dataw0lf-on what?
05:23.33levi_Looking at computer science texts available online.
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05:41.58MaquisNewsome: hi
05:42.05Maquisand gnight
05:43.42dataw0lf-hmm I think I want to do a double major.
05:44.47Newsomehi
05:45.05levi_What two majors?
05:46.01dataw0lf-Zoology and Electrical Engineering
05:46.42dataw0lf-it's a ways in the future before I go back to school (I want to get my helicopter private license first) but I want to get it all planned out.
05:46.52dataw0lf-And I think I finally settled on the subjects I want to learn about most.
05:47.31levi_Those are pretty dissimilar. :)
05:48.39dataw0lf-*shrug* they're what I want to learn about.
05:49.22dataw0lf-I have a successful career in CS, and went to school for it for a little while, I'm just not that interested in any more formal education on that particular topic.
05:49.35dataw0lf-but Zoology definitely.  And Electrical Engineering.
05:50.16dataw0lf-seems pretty logical to me :)
05:50.20levi_I'd like to learn more of EE stuff.
05:50.33levi_But I'd also like to learn more Math and CS stuff.
05:51.05dataw0lf-see, I'd be really interested in some graduate courses in CS and Math.
05:51.26levi_You don't want to have to go through the intermediate stuff, though?
05:52.39levi_I'm annoyed at the 'Java Trade School' aspect of CS BS degrees these days, as Alan Kay put it.   But there's no way for me to avoid it right now.
05:54.24dataw0lf-that is an excellent way to put it
05:54.24dataw0lf-:)
05:54.29dataw0lf-and one of my biggest beefs
05:54.41dataw0lf-they're starting to do alot of C# too, correct?
05:54.54dataw0lf-I haven't been in school for four or so years so I'm not uptodate.
05:55.04dataw0lf-wow, 4 years.
05:55.05dataw0lf-jeez.
05:55.20levi_Yeah, C# is pretty common too now.
05:55.24dataw0lf-yuck.
05:55.34levi_But whatever language, it's the same trade school principle at work.
05:56.10dataw0lf-see, something like Python would be better in my eyes because of the lack of a strong adherence to anyone methodology.
05:56.13levi_I'm pretty sure the EE guys don't start out with classes on the latest circuit design tools.
05:56.22dataw0lf-yeah, heh, I'm pretty sure too.
05:56.31dataw0lf-s/anyone/any one
05:57.00dataw0lf-I've noticed a disturbing trend where recent graduates think OOP is God and you can't do it any other way.
05:57.02levi_They start out with lots of theory of electronics and physics and how to do basic analog, digital, etc. circuits.
05:57.04dataw0lf-that's frightening.
05:57.27dataw0lf-levi_: yeah, it's more of a traditional agree, imho.
05:57.33dataw0lf-s/agree/degree
05:57.50levi_There are some really good introductory texts on CS that introduce a lot more paradigms, but they're mostly in the elite CS schools.
05:58.03dataw0lf-ugh, had to wake up at 3 am this morning to fight fires and been up since, I'm starting to disintegrate because of the lack of sleep the past couple weeks.
05:58.13dataw0lf-levi_: I went to Purdue, it wasn't so bad.
05:58.17dataw0lf-But that was also 4 years ago.
05:58.45levi_There are pedagogical languages like Oz that support pretty much all the common programming paradigms.
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05:59.50dataw0lf-see, I don't necessarily support reinforcing some estoretic language that you'll never use outside of school, just to avoid politicizing and the Great Language Debate.
06:00.52levi_I don't look at it that way.
06:01.28dataw0lf-I think teaching them something ridiculously useful like Perl or Python isn't a bad idea.
06:02.58levi_My way of seeing it is that you can either try to teach a bunch of complicated real-world languages as vehicles for the different paradigms, or you can use one simple one that fits everything in one syntactic/semantic shell as a tool to demonstrate the paradigms, and then let them branch out to the complicated practical ones.
06:03.47levi_Real-world languages always have a lot of cruft that is really useful in the real world, but gets in the way when you're trying to use it as a teaching tool.
06:04.21dataw0lf-Perhaps as an introductory course.
06:04.29levi_Right, that's what I mean.
06:04.36dataw0lf-ok, sure.
06:04.51dataw0lf-I agree.
06:05.04levi_And in some advanced courses, too, where you want to explore something that isn't well-supported in a mainstream language, or when you want to implement a simple language.
06:06.38levi_I like the idea of giving students a bit of freedom to choose what language they use for things, too, but that might not always be practical.
06:08.48Supaplexhah vb
09:19.38xbmodderhey!
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14:00.24sjansenhttp://joeblade.com/258/english-coffee/
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15:09.51Maquissjansen: ???
15:10.01sjansenMaquis: !!!
15:10.14dataw0lf...
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15:13.24hansemcnabb: ///
15:21.25Bradipo/\///\\/\/\//\//\\\/\//
15:25.16BradipoBacon Cipher in case anyone is wondering...
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15:27.20Jayce^vontrapp, http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/examples/junctions/
15:27.25Jayce^those all work currently
15:30.24hansworking in a language not suitable for general use is of limited utility
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15:35.22Jayce^utility, yes, understanding/prepping/learning, good
15:35.40hansI already know how to use them. been doing set theory for awhile now. :)
15:36.06Maquisdoes *ANYBODY* know how to use UPS's phone system/
15:36.18Maquisi can't for the life of me get through the stupid menu system
15:36.20leviMaquis: trying to phreak UPS?
15:36.31Maquisi just want to speak to someone over there
15:36.56leviyou want the CEO's private bathroom line.
15:37.12Maquisi don't understand why all of these places are giving up the nice "push 1" for "say 'track shipment'"
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15:37.26levi__:)
15:37.44Maquisi'd much rather type in my tracking number rather than trying to say it in a way that teh stupid system can understand
15:37.58Maquisand the automated voice is *really* annoying!!!
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15:38.02Maquisi just want my laptop
15:38.42hansi hate those voice systems. half the time they can't even understand NO. what good is that?
15:38.51hansof course, how different is that from a person...
15:38.58leviI hate them worse than the 'press 1 to...' systems.
15:40.21Maquislevi: yeah... me too
15:40.24Maquisthis is *really* annoying
15:40.48Maquisi don't know what to do because they're going to be trying to deliver things to utah for me when i'm not in utah, and i want to redirect the shipment here
15:40.50hanswhenever I get a voice system I start out by saying "representative" and "agent" and "person" and things like that.
15:41.04hansif nothing else, it confuses the system until it gets you to a person
15:41.17graphyxJust mummble things until it transfers you to a real person.
15:41.20graphyxThen talk normally...
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15:41.42leviSome of them try to dectect anger, actually.
15:41.54hansi'll have to try that
15:42.03hansor do they not let you through to a person if you're angry?
15:42.19leviNo, they transfer you to a real person quicker.
15:42.57leviThe worst was when I called Sprint a while ago.  I got through the voice menu to a certain point, it said it didn't understand, and then it said it was going to connect me to a person AND CHARGE ME MONEY for it.
15:43.12leviThey've since dropped that.
15:43.42Maquishey....  i think if you confuse the phone system enough, it connects you to an actual person
15:44.05BradipoI usually just begin speaking jibberish, or even another language.
15:44.11BradipoSeems to get them readily confused.
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15:45.38leviMaquis: The fun part is getting the person to transfer you to the right department.
15:46.32leviMaquis: And then getting someone who can actually help you.
15:49.18Maquislevi: i got the rigth department
15:49.36Maquisbut the tracking number lenovo gave me is for someone with a different name, going to a different state...
15:49.45Maquisand probably a completely different product
15:50.06Maquisand i'm really tired of this whole issue
15:50.39leviCrappy.
15:51.15leviI will avoid ordering from them.
15:51.50hansbut lenovo has three of the letters in your first name
15:51.57hanswhere's the loyalty
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15:55.10Maquisbah
15:55.25Maquisso... i call lenovo back (because UPS said that this was lenovo's problem)
15:55.31Maquisand lenovo says that it's UPS's problem
15:55.44Maquisi just want my computer
15:56.00hanswhat happens if it doesn't get delivered?
15:56.11hansyou get your money back, I would assume?
15:56.15Maquisi would assume so
15:56.29Maquisbut this is *really* frustrating
15:56.38hansso you tell lenovo it's their problem because if you don't get it they give you their money back and you buy a computer from someone else
15:56.49skel_homeMaquis: did you pay with a card?
15:56.57Maquisskel_home: yeah...  
15:57.00skel_homeMaquis: just contest the charges
15:57.09skel_homeMaquis: and let them worry about who's fault it is
15:57.11hansyup, there you are.
15:57.11Maquisi will if i don't end up getting the box
15:57.24Maquishopefully it'll somehow get there ok... but i'm losing faith in that
15:57.38hanstell them now so they can take action
15:57.49hansor if you'd rather stick it to them, wait for it to not get there
15:57.57hansthen contest
15:58.11skel_homeit's funny, in the TOS to hold visa/mc merchant accounts the online vendors pretty much get screwed, they have to agree to eat the loss if the customer contests the charge
15:58.16leviHah, this movie review is great: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050811/REVIEWS/50725001
15:58.25skel_homeunless they have a physical signature
15:59.43skel_homenot that I abuse that, just that I've had my fair share of screwings
16:04.52Maquisthe question is... do i try to call ups again?
16:05.11hansno, too nice. leave it in lenovo's lap
16:05.20Maquismaybe the person i was talking to earlier was just incompetent
16:05.33ralphsnartlast time i used UPS to order a monitor  they delivered it to the wrong house - and the person signed for it!! i fought with UPS for a while on this one because each claimed it was the other company's fault ;)
16:06.00Maquisperson must've thought "hmmm... free monitor"...
16:06.24ralphsnarthehe a little different than claiming a pizza to the wrong house
16:08.24RyanEnice flamewar starting email on PLUG...
16:08.54RyanEjust when I thought it was dying down.
16:09.17Maquisthe girls living in the apartment got the packages yesterday and put them on my bed
16:09.30Maquisso, lenovo and UPS are both stupid
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16:10.34lars-utI found something I really like about UPS
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16:11.07lars-utCostco uses them for shipping - and Costco drop ships from a distribution center in Salt Lake
16:11.16leviHeh.  Will Jayce rise to the bait?
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16:11.34Maquislars-ut: that's nice
16:12.12RyanEI can't see him NOT answering that one.
16:12.22MaquisRyanE: which email?
16:13.02lars-utI pay UT sales tax - but no shipping costs.  Ordered 4 toner carts yesterday afternoon, they'll arrive this morning.  Pretty fast for free shipping.
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16:13.43Maquislars-ut: you can get similar results from amazon if you get lucky
16:14.18lars-utreally?  That is cool.  I did get scrwed by the "O" - so I'm not too impressed with them
16:15.51lars-utOverstock was unable to cancel an order I had made 3 minutes prior - and then they shipped me a package with somebody else's item & packing slip inside.
16:16.05lars-utAt least they had my name on the outside.
16:16.47JoshHlars-ut: ya, about half the things on overstocks site dont come from their warehouse, but from "partners", and they cant cancel orders after its been sent to their warehouse, which is usually pretty quick.
16:17.04JoshHand the partners seem to screw up rather often
16:17.26lars-utI even used their chat to speed up the response time
16:17.30JoshHoverstock would drop the partner program if they could, but it provides over half their business.
16:17.48lars-utwow
16:18.04lars-utsounds like affiliate programs for spyware authors
16:18.20lars-utor maybe I'm a little too close to that subject.
16:18.32JoshHif a partner screws up too often though, they do get rid of that partner.
16:18.37vontrapp~lart hans
16:18.40JoshHjust because they know it reflects badly on them
16:18.58JoshHlars-ut: what item did you order?
16:19.03lars-utthat's pretty neat
16:19.08lars-utA DVD
16:19.18lars-utgot sent a book
16:19.43JoshHah, yes.  all the media items come from a huge, giant company called baker & taylor, they are one of two major media distribution companies in the country.  amazon uses them also actually.
16:20.20JoshHthey have a policy that there is no cancellations no matter what, period
16:20.41JoshHthey only partner with that policy actually
16:20.55RyanEMaquis: The recent PLUG email that says that Perl 5 demonstrates that TIMTOWDI is the wrong design philosophy.  
16:21.29lars-utJoshH: How do you know this?
16:21.34JoshHi used to work there
16:21.47lars-utWhy did you leave?
16:21.51JoshHlaid off
16:22.06lars-utI'm amazed by that policy
16:22.18lars-utno cancellations no matter what
16:22.28lars-utwow.
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16:23.19JoshHbaker & taylor is huge, and they basically make whatever rules they want.  its because its too much hassle for their warehouses or something.  also, if they send you the wrong thing, or a damaged item, if its under 20 bucks they will just let you keep it and they will send you the right item for free, they dont even bother sending you a return label or anything.
16:23.49lars-utJoshH: I don't like it when reps hide behind policy, but had the rep repeated that no cancellations policy back to me I would have been a litte less harsh.
16:24.20JoshHits funny, amazon and overstock's stuff comes from the same warehouses most of the time, but overstock charges less on media items than amazon just to get people to go to their site.  the whole media department there is just a loss leader, but it works really well for them.
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16:24.35JoshHif all you ever bought from overstock was media items, they would make no money on you
16:24.55lars-utre: policy - cheaper to eat the loss than to deal with small returns...
16:25.05lars-utI'm amazed at a loss leader on that scale.
16:25.05JoshHbut usually its cheaper to get something from amazon than overstock, since the price difference is only a couple bucks and amazon doesnt charge taxes if you live in utah.
16:25.30JoshHbut if its under 25 bucks, amazon will charge more for shipping than overstock, so it just depends
16:26.03JoshHits amazing though, a huge percentage of the people who go there becuase of the deals on movies and books end up buying stuff from other departments.
16:26.08lars-utgood info, JoshH - I wish there was a local geek-oriented consumer wiki with stuff like this
16:26.43JoshHya, that would be cool
16:26.55lars-utguess I can just type it here and google the log due to my laziness
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16:28.33lars-utI like to know consumer info that you usually only get from one-on-one communication, where to buy milk, where I buy my regularly purchased items and consumables, etc...
16:29.01lars-utIt'd be a good interlug project methinks
16:29.22JoshHya, that could be useful
16:29.44lars-utgeneral recommendations, reviews, etc... Local info is valuable to me.
16:30.05JoshHi buy computer parts from newegg, groceries at whatever store is closest to my house, clothes from whatever store my GF goes shopping at, and books or movies from either amazon or overstock, depending on whatever is cheaper after shipping/tax.
16:30.30leviI also think the perl design philosophy has some serious problems, but I'm not getting into that Plug flamewar.
16:31.01jsmithlars-ut: So, go register interlug.org, and put up a wiki :-)
16:31.35lars-utjsmith: another project?  It's a good idea.
16:31.50lars-utI might do it after SSS CD is released
16:31.59jsmithlars-ut: What's SSS?
16:32.12lars-utSoftware for Starving Students
16:32.21lars-utBTW I've gotten permission from the authors to use EAC, Spybot S & D, and Wink on the SSS CD
16:32.21jsmithlars-ut: Ahh....
16:32.57JoshHi go to walmart if i need to buy other stuff besides just food, but if im just grabbing stuff for a meal then ill go to albertsons or smiths since they are closer
16:33.00lars-utUnfortunately I don't thnk all of them will make it into this release.
16:33.20lars-utJoshH: I like Macys & Allen's
16:34.27jsmithlars-ut: Macey's and Peterson's
16:34.43jsmithlars-ut: (And Lee's Marketplace in Logan)
16:34.54lars-utjsmith: might be more appropriate to add those 3 apps to a separate project that uses the SSS base
16:35.47JoshHthe only maceys that i know of in the SLC area is way down in west jordan or something
16:36.06JoshHive never heard of allens or petersons
16:37.23hans*sigh* I can't believe I'm expending so many keystrokes to defending perl.
16:37.26hans:)
16:37.51hansallens is a locally-owned chain, I think
16:38.00bwhiteleyperl?  people use that stuff?
16:38.36JoshHhans: well, that is the same guy who was praising python and java earlier, so you probably are wasting your time
16:38.59hansoh, I'm done now.
16:41.12hansmost of what I said that isn't perl-specific I'd say about python and java too
16:41.35hanseven though none of the three is my first-choice language for just about any task
16:42.11hansi'd usually take c++ over java (sorry sjansen) by a slim margin (mostly because of system.out.println)
16:42.22hansalways ruby over python
16:42.29hansruby or shell over perl, depending on context.
16:43.23JoshHand here i thought everyone in PLUG loved perl above all else
16:43.47JoshHone thing i am sure of is that everyone in PLUG hates PHP
16:43.59sjansenWheeeee!!!
16:44.23hanssjansen: nice!
16:44.57hansI leave the flamewar in your able hands. :) I don't mind being called a sysadmin and an academic. I'd rather be both than a code monkey, esp. one who has to maintain thousands of lines of (java|perl)
16:45.30leviTMTOWTDI has consequences when you're dealing with a group of programmers on a single project.  You have to have some constraints external to the language that keep them all doing things the same way.  The same things happen with C++, IMO.  It also provides a lot of different ways to do things, though in a different way.
16:46.05hansyup
16:47.34sjansenlevi: Yes, but Perl doesn't make it as easy to extend the language hiding detail.
16:48.16levisjansen: Obviously you weren't at the Damian Conway presentation.
16:48.20sjansenIt provides several idioms so that you can choice the most expressive/most familiar/most efficient/most ugly, but it isn't as bad as C++.
16:48.29hanswhat's this? your preferrinc C++ to perl? ;-) Actually that was the thrust of Damian's talk - hiding complexity through evil perl magic
16:49.27levisjansen: And Perl 6 will add even more ways to extend the language and hide detail, albeit a bit more safely than textual source transformation.
16:50.06JoshHi dont even live in provo, but the PLUG list is by far my favorite local list just because of all the flamewars.
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16:50.30sjansenheh
16:50.33JoshHjust reading them is a great way to pass the time
16:50.35sjansen~flame JoshH
16:50.36ibotsjansen sux0rz d00d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@@!!!!!!!11
16:50.59JoshHlol, was he supposed to flame me or you?
16:51.33sjansenShe's just a little confused.
16:51.36sjansen~flame JoshH
16:51.36ibot<say> JoshH sux0rz d00d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@@!!!!!!!11
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16:51.58sjansen~flame JoshH
16:51.58ibotJoshH sux0rz d00d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@@!!!!!!!11
16:52.10sjansenMy work here is done. ;-)
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16:53.16JoshHso do all the pluggers who flame eachother daily on the list get along pretty well at the meetings, or do arguments often break out at those as well?
16:53.33vontrappdeaths
16:53.56vontrappok not really
16:54.13hansJoshH: normally we're all friends
16:54.42hansalthough I have seen people pick on joshc in person too. but he is even more formidable an opponent in person so I don't envy them.
16:55.46JoshHyou have to give him credit for steadfastly sticking to his outlook using, top posting ways, despite intense criticism.
16:56.13graphyxhe is still using Lookout?
16:56.22graphyxI thought that was something that got you kicked out of PLUG.
16:56.40JoshHa while back there was quite a flamewar over it
16:56.47JoshHhe top posts and never trims
16:56.51JoshHand refuses to change
16:57.02lars-utRead an article yesterday that shocked me re: spyware ( http://www.computerpoweruser.com/email.asp?emid=131547 ) Quote: "...intelligent infiltrations that actively thwart removal by hyper-updating their identity daily and running multiple processes. Eliminating one operation leaves another one running to reinstall the spy. These programs often use what hunters call a trickler, which reaches out to the spyware’s home server to pull down a new version of itself on a
16:57.32JoshHand ya, he says win2k and outlook is the best tool for the (desktop) job
16:58.09lars-utViruses and worms seem straightforward compared to the crap I've battled with lately.
16:58.57hansI refuse to change from top-posting too. I'll trim, because that doesn't betray, but I'll never bottom-post.
17:01.20JoshHive always just thought bottom posting was more natural and made more sense, just because then you can see exactly what someone is replying to.
17:01.32dataw0lfbottom posting uber alles!
17:01.37dataw0lfpython > perl
17:01.39dataw0lfdebian > *
17:01.40dataw0lfetc
17:02.04*** join/#utah cyclone (I=cyclone@antitech.xmission.com)
17:02.08*** join/#utah drewbono (n=andrew@c-24-2-95-76.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
17:02.30lars-utdataw0lf: uber alles - remember that from the Thieves Guild in Sierra Game Hero's Quest - So You Want to Be A Hero
17:02.53lars-utthen there was Code Name: Iceman
17:02.58lars-utgood
17:03.02lars-utgames
17:03.16dataw0lfnever played either.
17:03.39lars-utguess I'm supposed to be talking about Perl or email formatting.
17:03.53dataw0lfyeah, religiously, of course.
17:04.35leviLet's talk about how cool emacs is, and how much vim sucks.
17:04.40lars-utlol
17:05.18lars-utvim & emacs suck - ed rules
17:05.39RyanEemacs... ew!
17:05.53dataw0lfI didn't know anybody but Stallman was still using emacs.
17:05.58dataw0lfHow quaint.
17:06.01dataw0lf:)
17:06.08lars-utlol some more
17:06.44lars-ut"A keyborad? How quaint." - cracks knuckles.
17:06.52dataw0lfyeah.
17:06.57dataw0lfI transfer all data with mind bullets.
17:07.05lars-utnice.
17:07.11dataw0lfand construct packets and spit them into my switch
17:07.16dataw0lfI'm so bad.
17:07.17dataw0lfto the bone!
17:07.19bonez39JoshH: I have some more question about booting my 2.6/7 kernel on home machine....
17:07.29JoshHsup
17:07.29bonez39JoshH: can I post here, or in #flood?
17:07.39JoshHpastebin
17:07.53lars-utI need to eat, my synaptic interface bus pathways are slowing.
17:08.32bonez39JoshH: remind me, how to use pastebin
17:08.44JoshHhttp://pastebin.com/
17:08.46JoshHpaste it
17:08.49bonez39ok..
17:08.53JoshHthen give us the link
17:09.44ralphsnartever feel like you're watching the parade of idiots in your workplace?
17:10.10ralphsnarti just had the most enlightening conversation
17:10.21bonez39JoshH: ok, it's pasted in pastebin
17:10.32bonez39at http://pastebin.com/335387
17:10.53JoshHdid you load the psmouse module?
17:11.03ralphsnart"i can't use that disc because it's a CD. i only have a DVD drive"
17:11.07JoshHor is it usb
17:11.17bonez39JoshH: I checked in XFree86.0.log when my 2.4.18 kernel boots and loads the gui....and yes, loaded the psmouse module..it's now in /etc/modules
17:11.25bonez39no, it's a PS/2 mouse
17:11.37bonez39works just fine booting the 2.4.18 kernel
17:12.05JoshHtry changing the device to /dev/psaux, and just doublecheck that psmouse is loaded before starting X on 2.6
17:12.56Jayce^gah, 10 minute break, not enough time to read/respond to perl flamewar...... arrrrghhhh
17:13.22JoshHbonez39: i use /dev/input/mice but my mouse is USB
17:13.24bonez39JoshH: so let me understand .. I reboot, and halt it before it loads X... and then modprobe psmouse
17:13.38bonez39then lsmod to verify it is loaded...
17:13.53JoshHwell if psmouse is in /etc/modules then it should load, just change the device in your X config file and then try it
17:14.21bonez39then run gdm? I have the device set to /dev/psaux right there....I set it at that in dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86
17:14.37RyanE@Jayce^, I'm surprised you're able to restrain yourself...  10-minute-break be damned.
17:14.43JoshH#
17:14.43JoshHOption "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
17:14.43JoshH#
17:14.43JoshH(EE) xf86OpenSerial: Cannot open device /dev/input/mice
17:14.43JoshH#
17:14.44JoshH<PROTECTED>
17:14.46bonez39JoshH: 5th line down
17:14.46JoshH#
17:14.48JoshH(EE) Generic Mouse: cannot open input device
17:14.59JoshHah, i see
17:15.10bonez39JoshH: funny thing is..I never enter that in the reconfigure for xserver..
17:15.16bonez39not sure how that gets in there in the first place...
17:15.27JoshHif you unplug and replug the mouse while youre on the console, does it say it detected it?  what does dmesg say about your mouse.
17:16.18bonez39oh, I need to check those....
17:16.22bonez39havent' tried that
17:16.28JoshHbonez39: also, on configured mouse, change the protocol
17:16.33bonez39no harm in disconnecting the mouse with power on?
17:16.37JoshHno
17:16.45bonez39JoshH: on 'configured mouse'?
17:16.52JoshHwhat kind of mouse is it?
17:17.00JoshHyou have the protocol set to "MouseManPlusPS/2"
17:17.05bonez39is the dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 the way you'd update this?
17:17.11Uncle_Jessehola peeps
17:17.12bonez39it's a generic optical mouse
17:17.22JoshHi would exit XF86Config-4 manually
17:17.29JoshHbut dpkg-reconfigure works too
17:17.50Uncle_JesseI think Jonathan's in a loosing battle on PLUG
17:18.09Uncle_Jessethat's all I'm saying :-)
17:19.37Jayce^beyond losing..  pure troll
17:20.03Uncle_Jesselol
17:20.17Jayce^drank too much water during the time..  10 minutes used up :)
17:20.39bwhiteleyso plug is really largely perl people?
17:20.59JoshHalmost all pro perl/anti php
17:21.02Uncle_JesseSo how was it really?
17:21.10bwhiteleyJoshH: wow.
17:21.23Jayce^bwhiteley, just a few of us... most aren't
17:21.40Jayce^Uncle_Jesse, extremely good
17:21.45dataw0lfhad to reply.
17:21.46vontrapp~stab php
17:21.46ibotACTION runs at php with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut.
17:22.01dataw0lfsome of you guys are incredible.
17:22.21RyanEI'm perl-neutral
17:22.31vontrappmust resist urge...
17:22.35dataw0lfTrolls can't troll if they're talking to themselves.  As a master troll myself, I know this very well.
17:22.43dataw0lfI don't really care what the other guy is using.
17:23.02dataw0lfI'm smart enough to maintain whatever, and I'm only going to maintain something I want to anyways, so that argument is out the door.
17:23.32JoshHheh
17:23.35RyanEbesides, if I'm maintaining someone else's Perl code, I'm probably being paid hourly, so why do I care if it takes me longer?  :)
17:24.04JoshHhes an entertaining troll though.  all the best flamefests in #utah have had him involved in some way.
17:24.28dataw0lfI'm a tongue in cheek troll.  I just argue a point.  I don't really care what the point IS, I just want to keep people on their toes.
17:24.36dataw0lfand enjoy myself, of course.
17:24.38hansflamewars should be banned on fridays
17:24.43dataw0lfI agree.
17:24.59RyanEwhy?  fridays are unproductive anyway, might as well group all the slacking into one convenient location.
17:25.09dataw0lfMondays are unproductive for me.
17:25.19dataw0lfFriday I'm usually wrapping up loose ends.
17:25.32Uncle_JesseI venture over to the other side every once in awhile - I keep working for places that make me
17:25.49RyanEI can *smell* the slacking here on Friday.  Smells strangely enough like burned popcorn.
17:25.53Uncle_JesseI do have to admit though that my Perl appreciation is mostly a personal preference
17:26.14Uncle_JesseI can see myself doing many of the same things just as well in other languages
17:26.16dataw0lfhans: excellent post by the way.
17:26.58dataw0lfboth good Perl and Python programmers produce code amazingly quickly comparatively.
17:27.14Uncle_JesseI'm always up for a good argument though on why Perl is better than any other language. :-)
17:27.20dataw0lfheh
17:27.36dataw0lfthat's a losing battle when your language grows exponentially every which way.
17:27.51Uncle_Jesseany language war is a losing battle
17:28.11dataw0lfat least we can all agree that hungarian notation sucks.
17:28.12Uncle_Jesseit's all about which side has the most people to shut the other side down
17:28.49levidataw0lf: Do you mean systems or apps Hungarian? ;)
17:28.50dataw0lffrom what I've seen Perl versus * arguments usually boil down to : it's fun! etc, not language specific defenses
17:28.53Uncle_Jessedataw0lf: I've never tried hungarian notation - is there a man page?
17:28.57Uncle_Jesse:-)
17:29.00dataw0lfhehe
17:29.18Uncle_Jessedataw0lf is trolling me
17:30.17Uncle_Jessefunny thing is most language arguments end up that way in one form or another
17:30.34dataw0lfno, trust me, if I was trolling you, you wouldn't miss it whatsoever.
17:30.41dataw0lfI'm just noting something I've seen alot.
17:31.02leviI don't think there's much of anything that we can /all/ agree on.
17:31.02dataw0lfI act like I don't like Perl, but it works in many situations.
17:31.34dataw0lflevi: and I think that's a plus.
17:31.56ralphsnartthe reason i ended up in the web field was from my first experiences w/ perl
17:32.13ralphsnart"it's fun"
17:33.21Uncle_JesseI guess "it's fun" isn't a bad thing either
17:33.37hansdataw0lf: thanks. which one? ;)
17:34.05neybar_laptopI think that "it's fun" is almost always a good reason for using a language.  I generally don't have fun in PHP, but if that is where you gen enjoyment, go for it.
17:34.27dataw0lfhans:  Some are better than others to those of us that are knee-deep
17:34.27dataw0lfin it, but in the end a language that fosters enough of a following that
17:34.27dataw0lfsmart people solve real problems with it, is an ok language by me.
17:34.30dataw0lfthat one
17:34.43Uncle_JesseWhat kind of non-supported argument is this?: "Perl isn't a motorcyle or a semi.  It's a Ford Pinto."
17:34.57dataw0lfUncle_Jesse: ad hominem on Perl, obviously.
17:35.03neybar_laptopI think we mentioned that he was a troll already
17:35.04*** join/#utah euler (n=euler@fitz.pnl.gov)
17:35.13Jayce^dataw0lf, you should reply to that one with your normal "you are an amateur troll" reply
17:35.15Uncle_Jesseyeah I'll stop fussing I guess
17:35.26dataw0lfneybar_laptop: sure, which is fine for a 'why _I_ like a language' but not 'this language is better because of X design decision, feature, etc'
17:35.47Jayce^correct
17:36.00neybar_laptopi agree
17:36.15vontrapphey, i like pintos
17:36.16dataw0lfwhich is fine, if you like a language, go you.  that's the most important part.
17:36.26hansheh, the war is turning into a java bash again.
17:36.26dataw0lfJayce^: hm... too... lazy.
17:36.34hanscue bryan sant
17:36.36Jayce^it does help argue the "language X is hard"...  well, it was easier for *me* to learn..
17:36.44dataw0lfhans: easy target ;)
17:37.06neybar_laptopyeah, but java programmers make more, therfore it is a superiour language... DUH!
17:37.36Uncle_JessePLUG has a lot of opinions
17:37.41vontrappthey make more because they need more money for all the rogaine they need to buy after pulling all thier hair out
17:37.55Uncle_Jessesjansen: how much time did you spend on your response?
17:37.58dataw0lfJayce^: yeah, I think there's a kernel of truth in the fact that some languages are harder to master.  Perl is one of these, because of it's TMTOWTDI practice
17:38.05dataw0lfimho
17:38.08sjansenUncle_Jesse: *shrug*
17:38.28sjansenI've got nothing but time to kill today.
17:38.31Jayce^dataw0lf, some, but there is also the ability to find things that think the way you do..
17:38.35Uncle_Jesse~massage sjansen
17:38.47dataw0lfJayce^: oh, certainly.
17:38.50Jayce^to go along with levi's car description for perl
17:38.51Uncle_Jesseyour fingers must be sore
17:38.51Jayce^http://www.rodfathers.com/metropolitan2.jpg
17:38.59Jayce^since I used to have a Nash Metro
17:39.06Jayce^now *that* is more like it :)
17:39.19Uncle_Jesseooh - that's pretty
17:39.31Uncle_Jessereminds me of seeing real MP for the first time
17:41.11Uncle_JesseWhen this argument gets real fun is when you throw a couple Cold Fusion programmers in the mix
17:41.26dataw0lfugh, the top posting makes my eyes bleed!
17:41.26Uncle_Jessethat's what I work with here - they are funny
17:41.43sjansenWhat were those toys similar to transformers that you could put together and build a big robot?
17:41.43Jayce^sjansen, loved the PHP note
17:41.43goozbach~props to sjansen
17:42.13vontrappvoltron
17:42.32vontrapp^^ sjansen
17:42.37dataw0lfah jea
17:42.40dataw0lfVoltron++
17:42.45Uncle_JesseI have yet to meet a CF programmer that has graduated with any type of computer degree
17:43.12dataw0lfmeaning.. ?
17:43.17RyanEnow, Voltron is a good analogy to Perl.  Definitely TIMTOWTDI.
17:43.30Uncle_Jessemeaning they are completely oblivious to the rest of the world
17:43.52Uncle_JesseThey'll never argue it's better because they don't know any other languages
17:43.58dataw0lfI never finished my degree and I'm not completely oblivious to the world.
17:44.21Jayce^dataw0lf, in a rare attempt to defend Uncle_Jesse's statement, I think it was the any() that set's it off
17:44.25hansmost language arguments come down to that. people think their language is better because that's what they're most comfortable with, and they find "facts" to back it up.
17:44.26Uncle_Jessedataw0lf: I bet you program in languages that are filled with people with degrees though
17:44.49dataw0lfYeah, I fawn at their feet all the time too.
17:44.52dataw0lfI'm unworthy!
17:44.53Uncle_JesseI won't have my degree until October, but I know a lot of Perl programmers with degrees
17:44.58Jayce^lol
17:45.30Uncle_Jesseand the degree wasn't what I was talking about anyway - it's the type of degree
17:46.09Uncle_Jesseall CF programmers with degrees have degrees in non CS-related disciplines and learned CF as their first and only language
17:46.21Uncle_Jesses/with degrees/with degrees that I know/
17:46.42hansc'mon it's no fun without absolutes.
17:47.01Uncle_JesseI'm just trolling for someone to say Cold Fusion is better than Perl. :-)
17:47.22hanswell it _does_ have more syllables.
17:47.26Uncle_Jesselol
17:47.47vontrappand it sounds more like sufficiently advanced technology
17:47.53Uncle_Jessehans: not if you take it back to it's roots and say what P.E.R.L. really stands for
17:48.04dataw0lfhuh
17:48.11dataw0lfI've met ALOT of Perl programmers who don't have degrees.
17:48.13vontrappright, since we all know it really stands for something
17:48.25*** join/#utah drewbono (n=andrew@c-24-2-95-76.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
17:48.33Uncle_Jessedataw0lf: I bet most that you know with degrees hold CS degrees though
17:48.46Jayce^pretty eclectic rubbish lister
17:48.55Uncle_JesseJayce^: you're good
17:49.02vontrapps/pretty/petty/
17:49.06JoshHisnt it pathologically?
17:49.33dataw0lf'More like, Microsoft started talking about how great generics were so the Java guys copied them without thinking hard enough.'
17:49.41dataw0lfthis guy IS a terrible troll
17:49.50dataw0lfHe doesn't even deserve the moniker 'troll'
17:49.58dataw0lfI got another name for his kind but it isn't polite.
17:51.24dataw0lfthe classic 'avoid the argument at hand at all cost by making vague references to something else'
17:51.29Uncle_Jesseoops - just top-posted
17:51.33dataw0lfJayce^: pshaw how... amateurish
17:52.00dataw0lf:)
17:52.16Uncle_Jessesomeone should change the topic to my top-post and start a top-posting war
17:52.43Uncle_JesseI'll counter-argue if you argue against it :-)
17:53.00dataw0lfoi, no problem sjansen.
17:53.07dataw0lfi guess it's time to dive in
17:53.26RyanEhehehe
17:53.36Uncle_Jessesjansen: nice reference to CF there
17:54.59Uncle_JesseYou know we should play a game - someone say a word and everyone else try to find a way in their argument to Jonathan to use it in their reply
17:55.44RyanEshould be one of the words from Damien's presentation the other night.  :)
17:55.56neybar_laptopsjansen, Yay!  Transformers.  "Autobots, Roll Out!"
17:55.57Jayce^Rakudo
17:55.59Uncle_JesseI'm still trying to find out more details on that :-)
17:56.07Uncle_JesseJayce^: what does Rakudo mean?
17:56.14RyanEThe way of the Camel
17:56.15Jayce^you had to see the presentation  to understand
17:56.21Jayce^but it also means bliss
17:56.48Uncle_Jessethat's a good one
17:57.08RyanEIf his Perl6 presentation was as good as his 'magic' presentation, I'm sad I had to leave.
17:57.15JoshHwell
17:57.23JoshHthe perl6 talk went on for like another 2 hours
17:57.25Jayce^he mixed Rakuda and do to make the word, and hit on the second meaning
17:57.32Jayce^1 hour was all :)
17:57.44JoshHseemed like 2.  :P  my head was spinning by the end.
17:57.47RyanEyeah, my sister was babysitting and had to be elsewhere.
17:57.50Jayce^RyanE, less total comedy, a lot more cool features
17:57.59hansRyanE: I much more enjoyed the perl6 presentation
17:58.26RyanEwell, I'm not much of a Perl guy, but I would've liked to have stayed
17:58.29sjansenI hope tensai appreciates that I used a lot instead of alot in one of the messages.
17:58.29Jayce^hans, yeah we picked the first one because it was one fo the least perl-centric (could apply to your development in other langages)
17:58.50RyanEC++ not-so-much.  :)
17:59.08Uncle_JesseHe would be a great spokesman for Perl, being a professor and all
17:59.21Jayce^the one time he displayed C++ code in the perl6 presentation, he of course displayed it in red buffy font (blodd scrawl)
17:59.33Jayce^since that's what working in C++ is like
17:59.53Jayce^BTW, he taught a masters C++ program for 10 years...
18:00.13sjansenOne of my students this week was an emacs user. I had a hard time resisting the urge to do some impromptu tutoring to correct the error of his ways.
18:00.37sjansenJayce^: pathologically eclectic rubbish lister
18:02.25Uncle_JesseJayce^: how was your training with him at your work?
18:02.43neybar_laptopit is ongoing, and excellet.
18:02.47Jayce^still going
18:02.47neybar_laptoptoday is the last day
18:03.07sjansendataw0lf: we seem to differ on many things
18:03.54vontrappperl esteems ruby's lordship
18:04.15dataw0lfsjansen: that you waste time trying to convince somebody that one language is better than another and I don't ?
18:05.03sjansenhungarian notation done intelligently in typed languages can be nice
18:05.15dataw0lfsee, now you're scroll trolling, congratulations.
18:05.17sjansenpython << perl
18:05.35vontrappdoes that mean python eats pers?
18:05.40vontrapps/pers/perl/
18:05.52sjansenAt least we can agree that Ubuntu is nice. But I'm still not wild about Debian.
18:06.12sjansenpythong is significantly inferior to perl
18:06.14dataw0lffor line in open('file.txt').read().split('\n'):
18:06.21dataw0lf<PROTECTED>
18:06.28RyanEand Ubuntu is for little Girls.  :)
18:06.44dataw0lf<PROTECTED>
18:06.50dataw0lfwhat's the equivalent of that in Perl, sjansen?
18:07.46dataw0lftaking you a while for someone who can argue Perl versus Python so readily.
18:07.47sjansenI'm going to defer to Jayce^.
18:07.50dataw0lfRight.
18:07.56*** join/#utah kryp71k|w (n=kryp71k@67.41.175.169)
18:08.00dataw0lfSo you have no basis to argue Perl versus Python, is what I'm getting from this.
18:08.09dataw0lfit's rather easy to do in Perl..
18:08.14dataw0lfI guess I'll wait.
18:08.28Jayce^hehe, funny thing, we were just in a big discussion about how for readability you should always keep your functions from pushing out to the RHS such as that..
18:08.40sjansenLike I said, Python betrayed me. Someone else made the argument that Java is good because they tried to make it orthogonal.
18:09.16Uncle_JesseJayce^: is he pretty good for a company training like that?
18:09.23Jayce^extremely
18:09.26Uncle_JesseAll Civ fans: http://www.civanon.org/main.html
18:09.34sjansenThere are things I like about Python, for example numerics, but if the interpretter is going to be unreliable, what's the point?
18:10.01vontrappfor io('file.txt').split(/[\n ]) -> $word { words[word]++ }
18:10.13vontrappfor io('file.txt').split(/[\n ]) -> $word { @words[$word]++ }
18:10.17vontrappsorry, forgot sigils
18:10.42vontrappfor io('file.txt').split(/[\n ]/) -> $word { @words[$word]++ }
18:10.46dataw0lfyar
18:10.46vontrappthat's the one
18:10.54sjansenvontrapp: Thanks, I always have to do a context switch between languages. I've learned so many it can be an expensive operation.
18:11.26vontrappnote that i used perl6, since i don't much care for perl <6
18:11.47dataw0lfMoral: don't try to trap me into a language argument if you're not ready for the Pepsi Challenge.
18:12.01dataw0lfBut yes, at least we can agree Ubuntu is great.
18:14.40sjansenI think you misunderstand my motivation. Some people play football. I participate in flamewars (when I have time).
18:14.50sjansenIt's not about winning, it's about the joy of playing the game.
18:15.21dataw0lfyeah.
18:15.28dataw0lfI heard that in football from the losing team too.
18:15.30sjansenAfter a thread goes past a handful of replies, it is rare for anything useful to be said.
18:15.30dataw0lf:)
18:15.47Uncle_Jessesjansen: that would be the rakudo of playing the game
18:15.51sjansenWhen I'm not in the mood, or don't have time, I just delete the thread.
18:15.57vontrappit's like a spectator cheering for the underdog, then, um, going out and playing for the underdog
18:16.09sjansendataw0lf: It's hard to keep score in a flamewar, but I hardly think I'm losing.
18:16.27Uncle_JesseDoes anyone out there agree with Jonathan anyway?
18:16.29dataw0lfI'm still waiting on your Perl (5) version of said code *shrug*
18:16.57sjansenI mean on shear volume, I've got to be close to the lead if not winning! ;-)
18:16.58Jayce^dataw0lf, your line.split() for word's, is that just splitting on whitespace?
18:16.59dataw0lfI haven't liked that guy for a while, we traded words over email a while back and then he killfiled me.
18:17.14*** join/#utah resplin (n=richard@dsl092-197-123.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
18:17.32Jayce^so I create the same behavior
18:17.38Uncle_Jessejust don't bring up MySQL around him
18:18.01sjansenI sometimes wonder how many people have killfiled me. I probably deserve it... but if you can't accept the consequences, don't play the game.
18:18.07dataw0lfJayce^: yeah, split with no arguments splits it into a list of elements based on whitespace.
18:18.11dataw0lfsjansen: I agree.
18:18.15Uncle_JesseThis isn't the first time he's brought up the TIMTOWTDI argument also
18:18.36vontrapp~timtowtdi
18:18.36ibottimtowtdi is probably There Is More Than One Way To Do It.  Perl's philosophy, or courtesy of Larry Wall of perl.
18:19.05dataw0lfUncle_Jesse: Weak argument for Python (can't argue personal preference like that)
18:19.17Jayce^so your creating a hash of word counts, ok (defining word by whitespace separation)
18:19.25Uncle_Jessedataw0lf: what did I say about Python?
18:19.29Jayce^fyi, split in perl defaults to every char, that's why I asked
18:19.40dataw0lfUncle_Jesse: no, his argument
18:19.46dataw0lfJayce^: Roger.
18:20.23dataw0lfJayce^: Python does that with the list() function
18:20.25dataw0lfe.g.
18:20.28dataw0lfstring = 'blah'
18:20.32dataw0lflist(string)
18:20.49dataw0lfreturn array of characters
18:21.04Uncle_Jessewho's argument?
18:21.28dataw0lfUncle_Jesse: who you were referring to with 'he'.  Ellis, no?
18:22.10dataw0lfTIMTOWTDI is something weak Pythonistas bring up against Perl mongers when they have nothing else to say.
18:23.18Jayce^my %word_count = map { $word_count{$_} ++ } split( /\s/, slurp($filename) );
18:23.25Jayce^there's a quick one
18:23.31dataw0lfNice.
18:23.35dataw0lfsee, I think mine looks better.
18:23.39Jayce^map is very nice in that type of situation
18:23.44Jayce^and I like mine :)
18:23.46dataw0lfThat looks unreadable as all hell.  But to each his own.
18:24.01Jayce^map of course takes learning.. .extremely optimized in that situation
18:24.07dataw0lfwe have map in Python
18:24.09Jayce^would be easy to have a loop instead
18:24.13Uncle_Jessedataw0lf: he could make it much more readable in more lines
18:24.26dataw0lfUncle_Jesse: Exactly.  Which is why it's Perlistic
18:24.51Jayce^this will use less memory though, instead of running in a built loop
18:25.11dataw0lfif you want me to optimize it and make it smaller lines in Python I can do so rather easily (using map)
18:25.49Jayce^of course, out of IRC I would have split that on operators, for reading..
18:25.59Jayce^would hate to have a split out in the middle of the line
18:26.02Jayce^slurp too
18:26.21Jayce^LHS readability
18:27.20sjansendataw0lf: It only looks unreadable if you don't know perl.
18:27.31dataw0lfsjansen: I know Perl, and it looks like crap to me.
18:27.33dataw0lfI know what it's doing
18:27.36sjansenheh
18:27.40dataw0lfbut it looks like Snoopy cursing.
18:27.59sjansenSo your argument is that a language must look like english to be good?
18:28.11dataw0lfI can show my Python snippet to someone EVEN IF THEY DON'T KNOW Python and they will know what it's doing.
18:28.16dataw0lfNo, I'm not saying that.
18:28.20dataw0lfNor am I saying 'Perl isn't good'
18:28.30Jayce^sjansen, ellis really has no clue in his latest response to you..
18:28.42dataw0lfsjansen: I'm saying that Perl code is ugly.
18:29.01sjansenOkay, I'll give you that one. Perl will never win any beauty contests.
18:29.17Maquis~perl
18:29.17ibotperl is, like, at http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/Perl or at http://www.perl.com, or a knitting stitch, or the Pathologically Eclectic rubbish Lister, or that other "P" language
18:29.28sjansen(Well, not without bumping off the competition, at least.)
18:29.33resplinSorry to take attention away from the latest flame-fest. I was hoping to change the subject.
18:29.43Jayce^sjansen, you shoulda seen the perl 6 stuff then :)
18:29.57resplinDoes anyone have any opinions about metalog or syslog-ng (pro or con)?
18:30.08*** part/#utah euler (n=euler@fitz.pnl.gov)
18:30.31Uncle_Jesseyeah - I was about to say the perl 6 example above was uglier
18:30.41vontrappFile.read(filename).split(/\s/).each { |word| words[word]++ }
18:30.42Uncle_Jesse:-)
18:30.45vontrappthen there's ruby ^^
18:31.09Uncle_Jessethe ruby hype annoys me - not sure why
18:31.20neybar_laptopit shouldn't
18:32.11Uncle_JesseI think it's more the Rails hype that bugs me
18:32.21hansUncle_Jesse: it's because it's not perl
18:32.21vontrappi thought the perl 6 stuff was beautiful
18:32.28Uncle_Jessehans: that's part of it
18:32.44neybar_laptopI think that ruby on rails is a very cool technology.  
18:33.14Uncle_JesseI just tend to find most Rails enthusiasts are either people already into Ruby (which is just fine), or people all of the sudden discovering the MVC methodology
18:33.26Jayce^someone was joking about calling WWW::Kontent (perl 6 CMS, proof of concept) as Perl 6 on Pylons, just to lart the name
18:33.33hansUncle_Jesse: nope
18:33.49Uncle_JesseI think it's great technology though from what I've seen
18:33.56Jayce^Uncle_Jesse, at least they are learning MVC, which is a huge ++ for ruby over people learning code via PHP :)
18:34.10vontrappwhat's with the K in Kontent? is perl6 aligning itself with kde?
18:34.15resplinUm, let me attempt a generalization, and see if it elicits a response: any thoughts on logging systems in general?
18:34.21Uncle_JesseJayce^: that's true, although Fusebox has been around for at least a year or two
18:34.22vontrapp*shiver*
18:34.22hansthe ruby community has seen a large influx because of rails, and the wave hasn't really hit people who aren't into frameworks yet, and all of the people who are know all about mvc.
18:34.24Jayce^nah, somebody had Content..
18:34.29Uncle_Jessebut that wasn't even written by PHP developers
18:34.50hansresplin: logging is good
18:35.14neybar_laptopfilling /var/log is bad
18:35.15Supaplexunless govt wants your logs :o)
18:35.23Uncle_Jessehans: the replies I was getting on /. were all from Rails activists saying Rails wan't MVC though - they didn't even realize what they were dealing with
18:35.39hans<PROTECTED>
18:35.42vontrappall your /var/log are belong to govt
18:35.50resplinAs always, #utah has proven friendly and entertaining. :)
18:35.57Uncle_Jessehans: I was replying to something about Rails saying what I said above
18:36.22hansyou believe what you read in /. comments?
18:36.29neybar_laptoplol
18:36.41resplinThanks for the responses.
18:36.44Uncle_Jessehans: I agree - I saw the same on digg too though :-)
18:36.50hansmore context, resplin
18:37.15resplinhans: thanks for the encouragement, I was about to get back to work.
18:37.22hanswell I don't even know what digg is. but certainly you're going to get buzzword groupies who don't know what they're saying
18:37.32Uncle_Jessedigg = script-kiddies of /.
18:37.41hanswell, if you're asking about logging it probably is work, right?
18:37.50Uncle_JesseI was supporting your point actually
18:38.12resplinBrief context: we want to centralize all of our logs, and parse them in crazy ways.
18:38.18resplinhans: yes, work related
18:38.29Uncle_Jessemaybe it's just that small group I'm annoyed with
18:38.39Uncle_Jessemaybe I'm really a Rails user and don't know it yet
18:39.01resplinI looked at metalog, and it grouped messages in an unintuitive way. I have not tried syslog-ng, and thought I'd ping the group for general impressions.
18:39.03hansresplin: what generates the logs?
18:39.11hansoh system logs
18:39.17sjansenresplin: syslog-ng is better than plain ole' syslog, that's the extent of my experience
18:39.21hanswell I've written/amwriting a log "distiller"
18:39.27hansit's usable now, just needs more filters
18:39.41hansyou can syslog all to the same box for centralization
18:40.12Jayce^we're using -ng here, but I'm not over that, so can't say much
18:40.19vontrapp~google clog site:hans.fugal.net
18:40.51hansibot, hello?
18:40.51ibotHowdy Bub
18:40.58resplinYour responses have been helpful. I mostly wanted to see if anyone had a "don't consider using that!" kind of feeling. I'm encouraged to hear that syslog-ng at least is in production use.
18:41.14vontrapp~lart ibot
18:41.23hans~lart itself
18:41.27hans~lart herself
18:41.29resplin(I also wanted an excuse to check into #utah and enjoy at the discussion.)
18:41.50vontrapp~google clog
18:41.50hansyou missed the flame war backchannel
18:42.03vontrapp~google anything
18:42.11vontrappibot, stupid
18:42.11ibotfrom memory, stupid is http://fun.drno.de/pics/english/bart.gif, or ibot
18:42.17resplinEveryone took the flamewar off channel?
18:42.32Jayce^no, backchannel. multithreading :)
18:42.38vontrappthe flame war was on plug
18:43.12sjansenFor the first time ever I respect something Roger Ebert has said: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050811/REVIEWS/50725001
18:43.40vontrapphans: i watched the first drwho last night, my first impression of the dr was that he wasn't drwhoish, but he acted the part well i must say
18:44.17hansdidn't they switch doctors after a couple of eps anyway?
18:44.33vontrappcould be, i just watched the first
18:45.35vontrapphis hair cut and pose on the poster i saw though... just looked more like some cool action-hero dude than a drwho
18:46.02sjansendrwho is cool exactly because he is the antithesis of cool
18:46.11vontrapp:)
18:46.25vontrappand he did it well
18:46.30vontrappi was relieved
18:46.53hansi'm still mad at channel 7 for stopping the dr. who run
18:47.21vontrappyikes, there's been nearly 50 messages just since when i came in this mornign
18:48.04Uncle_JesseInteresting - Dreamweaver 8 is finally embedding HomeSite
18:48.21vontrappyuck
18:48.52Uncle_Jessenot that anyone here cares - I don't either, just interesting, back to my old IDI days
18:50.38Jayce^lunch &
18:50.45vontrapphehehe
18:50.50vontrappJayce^++
18:51.45*** part/#utah resplin (n=richard@dsl092-197-123.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
18:54.16hansheh, now who's throwing out credentials
18:55.17*** part/#utah ralphsnart (i=fwuser@66.187.129.78)
18:56.27Uncle_Jessewho's ralphsnart?
18:58.03dataw0lfMy clairvoyance is broken right now, check back later
18:59.58Jayce^sjansen, admit it, ellis is far superior in language knowledge than you  ;-p
19:01.38dataw0lfhis ad hominem is getting tiring
19:01.51dataw0lfsmack him down asap sjansen, kthnx
19:03.53Uncle_Jesseno one tops me in flame wars though :-P
19:04.07Jayce^no, nobody listens to you in flame wars...   :)
19:04.58sjansenNo one expects the Uncle_Jesse inquisition!
19:05.18Uncle_JesseJayce^: I was wondering why Jonathan wasn't answering anything I said
19:05.29Uncle_JesseI thought I was just right
19:06.03Jayce^maybe it's because they aren't threaded :)
19:06.12dataw0lfthat... IS the problem ;)
19:06.21Uncle_JesseMaybe he's taking my recommendation and going back to our previous PLUG argument on this
19:06.28Jayce^I was trying to get him to think about that
19:06.36Uncle_JesseI can't help that my mail client is inferior
19:07.10dataw0lfwhat're you using?
19:07.14*** join/#utah zzzirk (n=lzirkel@c-67-164-205-60.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
19:07.49vontrappblech, saccarin
19:08.21dataw0lfI guess I could look through the header.
19:08.25Uncle_Jessedataw0lf: I'm forced to use Outlook at work
19:08.26dataw0lfbut I'm too lazy.
19:08.30sjansentoo easy
19:09.17Jayce^so use it for the work email, and use a real client for your external accounts
19:09.30Uncle_Jesseit's a great way to have Jonathan not know that you are talking about him
19:09.32Jayce^gee, that took some work :)
19:09.34neybar_laptopmy company enforces outlook/exchange, but that doesn't mean that my important mail goes through it.
19:09.47Uncle_JesseJayce^: I keep meaning to do that, just haven't gotten around to it
19:09.50goozbachUncle_Jesse: ralphsnart is an ex-student of mine
19:09.55Uncle_JesseI could also probably use my gmail account
19:10.07Uncle_Jessegoozbach: way to recruit!
19:10.22goozbachhe's from philly, so it really doesn't count
19:10.32Uncle_JesseI've had remote mail access so many times - I keep removing it for different reasons though
19:10.43Jayce^uh oh, another xbmodder then
19:10.45Uncle_Jessegoozbach: are you saying people in other locations don't count?
19:10.53neybar_laptopyes... :P
19:11.02Jayce^no, the locations count, just not the people...
19:12.03Uncle_JesseI guess sjansen hasn't said anything yet
19:12.05sjansenUncle_Jesse: Didn't I mention I don't like massages? Trying to relax makes me more tense.
19:12.17Uncle_Jesse~hit sjansen
19:12.17ibotACTION kicks sjansen.
19:12.24sjansen~bite Uncle_Jesse
19:12.24ibotACTION takes a big bite out of Uncle_Jesse's jugular vein
19:12.24Uncle_Jessefeel better?
19:12.36Uncle_Jesse~poke sjansen
19:12.36ibotbut then who will poke the pokers, uncle_jesse? xbmodder1screen?
19:12.42sjansen~slap Uncle_Jesse
19:12.42ibotACTION slaps Uncle_Jesse, keep your grubby fingers to yourself!
19:12.42Uncle_Jesse~stab sjansen
19:12.42ibotACTION runs at sjansen with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut.
19:12.47sjansen~boot Uncle_Jesse
19:12.47ibotACTION says "boot to the head" to Uncle_Jesse and knocks him over
19:12.49Uncle_Jesse~lart sjansen
19:12.53Uncle_Jesse~shoot sjansen
19:12.57sjansen~funkybomb Uncle_Jesse
19:12.58ibotACTION blows away Uncle_Jesse in a psychedelic flash
19:13.00Uncle_Jesse~jedi sjansen
19:13.00ibotACTION chops off sjansen's head with her lightsaber
19:13.06sjansen~bzfrag Uncle_Jesse
19:13.06ibotACTION blindsides Uncle_Jesse with an invisible bullet
19:13.09Uncle_Jessecan't top the jedi
19:13.18Uncle_Jessebzfrag comes close
19:13.30sjansenCould you just give me a cookie next time.
19:13.33Uncle_Jesse~fart sjansen
19:13.33ibotACTION farts in sjansen's general direction
19:13.38Uncle_Jesse~cookie sjansen
19:13.53Uncle_Jesse~give sjansen a cookie
19:13.53ibotACTION gives sjansen a home-baked peanut butter cookie to cheer him up.
19:14.57Uncle_JesseAnyone up for Tucanos next week?
19:15.11vontrappmmm, tucanos
19:15.16dataw0lftucanos?
19:15.16Jayce^if you're paying
19:15.19vontrappwe could throw a going away party for hans
19:15.25Jayce^or you eat real fejoiada
19:15.35Uncle_Jesseor how about a coming to utah party for me?
19:15.41Uncle_Jessemy b-day is on Sunday
19:15.48Jayce^dataw0lf, brasilian grill (same as rodizios)
19:15.55Uncle_Jessewe could throw me a coming to utah/b-day/going away for hans party
19:16.02dataw0lfJayce^: ah, cool.
19:16.21Uncle_JesseI come in on Thursday so it would have to be Thurs or Fri or beginning of the next week
19:18.06vontrapphans leaves friday
19:18.36Uncle_Jesseso let's do it friday right before he leaves
19:18.53Uncle_JesseI have the worst timing
19:21.33RyanEyeah, to have that nick when that horrible Dukes of Hazzard movie just came out.  :)
19:23.20Uncle_JesseI got this way before they were shooting it
19:25.30dataw0lfI dunno I liked the Dukes of Hazzard, surprisingly enough.
19:25.42RyanEthe movie?  
19:25.45dataw0lfYeah.
19:25.51dataw0lfAnd I'm a huge fan of the series.
19:26.13dataw0lfI think Sean William Scott and Johnny Knoxville are awesome though.
19:26.16RyanEI liked the action sequences -- the car chases were pretty well done (other than the obvious 'it can't do that' moments)
19:26.33dataw0lfyeah.
19:26.40Uncle_JesseI hear if you liked the series you'll like the movie
19:26.45dataw0lfI thought they pulled off Bo and Luke surprisingly well.
19:26.49Uncle_JesseI still haven't seen it ironically
19:27.04dataw0lfUncle_Jesse: I'll recommend it.
19:27.14RyanEI wouldn't have gone to see it, but the wife won tickets to the premier and a chance to win the General Lee.
19:27.18dataw0lfI mean, don't go in looking for a work of art like some critics seem to.
19:27.22RyanE(a replica of the general lee)
19:27.49RyanEanyone going in to that movie looking for art is pretty misguided.
19:29.48Uncle_Jesse<drool />
19:35.31bonez39JoshH: Does this help? this is from dmesg on my home machine: input: ImPS/2 Generic Wheel Mouse on isa0060/serio1
19:38.05Uncle_JesseSomeone needs to teach Mr. Ed that Perl is not spelled PERL
19:40.22dataw0lfsjansen: go back to using second rate technologies sir!
19:44.15dataw0lfaccusing you of dodging? :)
19:44.41sjansennope, attacking my employer
19:45.51dataw0lfwho's your employer?
19:46.17Uncle_Jesseyeah - that was low-balled
19:47.18dataw0lfah, I didn't even catch that.  'training people second rate technology' gotcha
19:47.24dataw0lf+in
19:47.29dataw0lfI thought he was referring to you advocating Perl.
19:48.23sjansenI think I'll stay out anyway. He's turned it personal. At this point, the thread is just about wasting time. Nothing good can come out of it.
19:48.35dataw0lfargh
19:48.36dataw0lfdamn it
19:48.39dataw0lfI wanted to see your reply.
19:49.03sjansenI'm thinking about it. I don't want to give the impression I excuse myself for the times I've done the same.
19:49.49Maquissjansen: what'd he say about gl?  
19:49.51dataw0lfJust point out that he's the one doing all the dodging by repeatedly utilizing ad hominem attacks
19:50.01Jayce^python == lemmings...  mister E hit guido's fanbase right on the head
19:50.03Jayce^:)
19:50.09sjansenIt be more effective comgin from other people with less skin in the game.
19:50.13Jayce^part of my personal beef with it
19:50.15hanswouldn't a python eat lemmings?
19:50.18dataw0lfsjansen: on it
19:50.25dataw0lfJayce^: now who's trolling eh?
19:50.27dataw0lf;)
19:50.31Jayce^dataw0lf, :)
19:50.57Jayce^dataw0lf, actually, it has to do a bit with my personal dislike of python's style, which is the same thing that makes others like it..
19:51.08Jayce^one of those factors that is a personal choice in language enjoyment
19:51.20Jayce^I really dislike guido's style
19:51.56Maquissjansen: ???
19:52.08sjansenMaquis: Plug list.
19:52.13Maquissjansen: i know...
19:52.16Uncle_JesseI like Ruby better than I like Python in terms of style
19:52.24Maquisbut i'm way behind... what'd they say about gl?
19:52.30Maquisor about someone at gl?
19:52.40Jayce^Uncle_Jesse, but that's becasue matz prefers perl to python
19:53.08dataw0lfsjansen: posted
19:53.16dataw0lfJayce^: yeah, I'm exactly the opposite :)
19:53.28dataw0lfwe both have to make the occasional snide comment about the other side of course, or we wouldn't be geeks.
19:53.32dataw0lfit's all in fun though.
19:53.34Jayce^dataw0lf, which is fine, and why it's nice to have more than one language... personal style :)
19:53.41Jayce^correct
19:53.53Jayce^just because my taste is better than yours..... :)
19:54.44Uncle_Jesseoh yeah - I think you all suck
19:55.06Uncle_Jesseand your employers too
19:55.07bonez39suck a cold bottle of Coke....gladly.....
19:55.10Uncle_Jesse:-P
19:55.28Maquis~lart lenovo
19:55.31Uncle_JesseI should add the classic pbpbpbpbpbpbpbp too
19:55.39Jayce^dataw0lf, nice post
19:55.47sjansendd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda <-- makes me nervous every time
19:56.15Jayce^sjansen, runs fine for me...
19:56.16Jayce^:)
19:56.21Uncle_Jesseway to teach him to troll dataw0lf
19:56.43Maquissjansen: whatcha doin that for?
19:57.10Uncle_Jessethis has turned into an everyone bash jonathan flamefest
19:57.25Uncle_Jessewe should show him some love
19:57.38dataw0lfI was going to stay out of it but sjansen's hesitance and my indignation on being killfiled by him several months ago got the best of me.
19:58.58Maquisdataw0lf: you got killfiled by sjansen? or who?
19:59.26dataw0lfEllis
19:59.35dataw0lfJonthan, quantity 1
19:59.45dataw0lferr Jonathan
20:01.20*** join/#utah flyboy^ (n=flyboy@ded1005.west-datacenter.net)
20:02.48dataw0lfI like how he's using a Perl based web email system, looks like.
20:02.53dataw0lf:]
20:05.20sjansenWell, I'm outta here.
20:05.30sjansenLater all.
20:05.37Jayce^tchau
20:10.48*** join/#utah drewbono (n=andrew@c-24-2-95-76.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
20:10.52hansand all because I summarized damian's talk as "perl 6 looks like a good language"
20:11.08mrpullperl 6 looks to by ugly
20:11.12Jayce^so it's *your* fault..
20:11.22dataw0lfbut python is better than 5 PLUS 6 DUH!
20:11.47Jayce^dataw0lf, you would have really enjoyed his "10 reasons python is better than perl" section..
20:11.52Jayce^quite funny
20:12.12dataw0lfthat sounds like a setup!
20:12.13dataw0lf:)
20:12.29Jayce^#4 language creator doesn't resemble Weird Al
20:13.11Jayce^it was a lead in to his "what's broken with OO perl" and how it's fixed in more in 6
20:17.05glass-eyei heard there was a sweet language flamewar in here
20:17.28neybar_laptopthe real flamewar was on the plug maillist
20:17.32glass-eyedarn
20:17.42Jayce^here is where we lart the flamewar
20:17.43neybar_laptopwhich is in the archives now... :)
20:21.25*** join/#utah kryp71k|w_ (n=kryp71k@67.41.175.169)
20:21.54dataw0lfack
20:21.58glass-eyesyn
20:22.00dataw0lfI think I just crossthreaded my labret
20:22.32goozbachinvalid packet...
20:22.40glass-eyegoozbach: no one asked you :)
20:23.10Uncle_Jessethat flamewar was in the archives before it even started
20:23.24Uncle_Jesseit involved J.E. at that time too
20:24.11hansJayce^: I was replying to Uncle_Jesse so it's his fault.
20:24.54Uncle_Jessehans: I was replying to Tim Morris so it's his fault
20:24.58dataw0lfhans: like you don't know that repeating someone's opinion on a language's future is pure flame bait!
20:24.59dataw0lf:)
20:25.14Uncle_Jessebut I like taking the blame as the troll - after all I am a better troll than dataw0lf ;-)
20:26.00Uncle_JesseTIMTOWTT - there is more than one way to troll
20:26.12Uncle_Jessewhether you like that attitude or not
20:26.25Uncle_JesseI think it's good trolling practice personally
20:27.54Uncle_JesseAnyone here have an IPAQ?
20:28.38mrpulljesse -- i've got a pockepc phone  does that count?
20:28.56glass-eyeUncle_Jesse: i installed familiar on an ipaq 3600
20:30.08neybar_laptopI was working on creating a new acronym but it wasn't turning out very funnily
20:30.55goozbachwow! >10m without a new email...
20:32.35zzzirkno kidding
20:33.50Uncle_Jesseglass-eye: I may be in touch with you - I'm looking into doing it for my 6315
20:34.34glass-eyeits pretty easy, especially if you have the COM cable
20:34.57glass-eyedoing it with a flash card was a bit trickier if i remember right
20:35.00Uncle_JesseI'm just concerned about getting it to work w/ the phone functions
20:35.09glass-eyeOh, i've never done that
20:35.11Uncle_JesseI do have a 1Gb flash card too
20:35.17glass-eyethe 3600 is just a straight PDA
20:35.23Uncle_JesseI've also got to get bluetooth and wifi working
20:35.37glass-eyewifi worked out of the box, as does bluetooth
20:35.41Uncle_Jessehaven't seen a howto so I'd have to write one if I did it, adding to my time
20:35.53Uncle_Jesseglass-eye: that's good to know
20:36.11Uncle_Jessehow did you like it compared to PocketPC?
20:36.21Uncle_Jesse(all biases aside)
20:36.30glass-eyemuch better, more apps i liked
20:36.35glass-eyei could run vim-tiny on it
20:38.58*** join/#utah RyanE_ (n=ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com)
20:39.51Uncle_Jessethat's very cool - is it more customizable? (is that correct grammar?)
20:41.37glass-eyevery much
20:41.47glass-eyeplus you can use the console to run commands
20:41.59glass-eyefamiliar is some what debian based, so its pretty nice
20:42.59Uncle_Jessewell in that case... ;-)
20:43.30Uncle_JesseI just want to lock the screen so only the buttons work when I'm on a call
20:43.56glass-eyei like the feature of being able to rotate the image on the screen so its longer
20:45.06*** join/#utah hagna (n=me@67.50.46.118)
20:45.31hagnawhat's a good lib for doing html2pdf?
20:45.45glass-eyehow about html2pdf?
20:47.02Uncle_JesseMaybe I'll try that this weekend
20:52.57goozbachthat was a good one...
20:56.37Uncle_Jessecampgrounds now carrying wifi?
20:58.13*** join/#utah albino (n=albino@alt.nafpik.com)
20:58.36albinoI heard there was a language war going on and I thought I would pop in to see the brutality.  So who is winning as of right now?
21:00.13bwhiteleynobody wins a flame war.
21:00.41dataw0lfpfft
21:00.49*** join/#utah macnewbold (n=mac@69.2.248.251)
21:01.01macnewbolddoes anyone in here know of any good Knowledge Base systems?
21:01.04hagnawhat's the subject called that is the study of if you can't say it you can't think it and language limits your thought
21:01.10macnewboldopen source & free (as in speech & as in root beer), of course
21:01.22Jayce^rtfm (rt with knowledge base)
21:01.32Jayce^and a great acronym :)
21:01.38Jayce^bestpractical.com
21:01.42macnewboldJayce^: are you telling me to do something, or is that the name of the system?
21:01.48Jayce^:)
21:01.52Jayce^that's the name
21:01.59macnewboldand is it inextricably tied to rt?
21:02.03Jayce^yes
21:02.40macnewboldhm
21:02.45macnewboldthat's a downside then :(
21:02.54jsmithmacnewbold: What, you don't like RT either?
21:02.58macnewboldthey already have a bug/request tracker system they like
21:03.04macnewbold(flyspray)
21:03.06macnewbold~flyspray
21:03.07iboti guess flyspray is an excellent lightweight bug tracking system: see http://flyspray.rocks.cc/ or #flyspray or see it in action: http://flyspray.rocks.cc/bts/
21:03.22dataw0lfoh yeah, flyspray++
21:03.28macnewboldI've got nothing against RT - I've recommended it to a couple of people
21:03.32hagnawell nasa uses bugzilla
21:03.39macnewbold~lart bugzilla
21:03.42Jayce^bugzilla --
21:03.46macnewboldw00t
21:03.51dataw0lfooh thanks hagna
21:03.55hagnanp
21:03.59dataw0lfNASA also uses Python !
21:04.04dataw0lf;)
21:04.08macnewbold~python++
21:04.09Jayce^they use perl too :)
21:04.14macnewbold~perl++
21:04.17hagnathey use rockets too
21:04.19dataw0lf~rockets
21:04.20macnewbold~NASA--
21:04.26dataw0lf~wmds++++
21:04.32vontrapp~karma nasa
21:04.32ibotnasa has karma of -1
21:04.41dataw0lf~karma dataw0lf
21:04.41ibotdataw0lf has karma of 2
21:04.44dataw0lfooooh
21:04.47dataw0lf:)
21:04.52dataw0lf~karma macnewbold
21:04.52ibotmacnewbold has karma of 7
21:04.54macnewbold~flyspray++
21:04.55dataw0lfpshaw
21:05.08hagnaroundup
21:05.08vontrapp.0o
21:05.32dataw0lfssshhh
21:05.50macnewboldanyone else have Knowledge Base suggestions?
21:05.54hagnaflyspray freezes my firefox
21:06.20*** join/#utah not_dataw0lf (n=von@user-226.kingsley2.fiber.net)
21:06.35not_dataw0lf~dataw0lf++
21:06.52Jayce^supposedly ibot ignores that
21:06.58dataw0lf~karma dataw0lf
21:06.58ibotdataw0lf has karma of 3
21:07.02dataw0lfsure does
21:07.13Uncle_Jesseadios guys
21:07.16dataw0lfcya
21:07.22vontrappdoes it match partial nick or something?
21:07.26vontrappor just repeats
21:07.31jsmithUncle_Jesse: Have a nice weekend...
21:07.34Jayce^repeats in a window iirc
21:07.37dataw0lfvontrapp: betting repeats
21:07.50jsmith~karma jsmith
21:07.50ibotjsmith has neutral karma
21:08.06Jayce^~jsmith++ for writing an oreilly book
21:08.11jsmith~thebook
21:08.11ibotsomebody said thebook was Asterisk: The Future of Telephony by Jim Van Meggelen, Jared Smith & Leif Madsen, published by O'Reilly Media. It can be found at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/asterisk
21:08.16Jayce^~karma jsmith
21:08.16ibotjsmith has neutral karma
21:08.18Jayce^hrm
21:08.31hagnadataw0lf: hey um these are supposed to be green
21:08.32jsmith~jsmith+1
21:09.37jsmithhagna: What did he do, give you some camoflauge bills?
21:10.08dataw0lfFOOL!
21:10.16dataw0lfI am now the Ultimate Ruler of Karma muhaha
21:10.19dataw0lfahem
21:10.20dataw0lfexcuse me.
21:10.33dataw0lfthe megalomania hits right around end of day on Friday.
21:11.13macnewboldhagna: what version of flyspray freezes your firefox? I use it constantly on mozilla-family browsers, without problems
21:11.39*** part/#utah albino (n=albino@alt.nafpik.com)
21:12.25hagnamacnewbold: when I visited the flyspray site firefox got laggy for whatever reason
21:12.44macnewboldtheir web site, or a flyspray installation?
21:13.09macnewboldtheir web site is all done in docuwiki now, so the problem's probably long gone
21:13.36hagnayeah maybe it was something else who knows in fact it may be gmail
21:14.03macnewboldhehe
21:14.46macnewboldhey, TimRiker - are you familiar with yow / zippy / pinhead? is it hooked into ibot/jbot anywhere by chance?
21:15.11TimRiker~yow
21:15.28macnewboldsweet
21:15.42macnewboldshould'a tried it before asking I guess...
21:15.43TimRiker=)
21:15.49TimRiker~zippy
21:16.00macnewbold~pinhead
21:16.15TimRikerheh. no alias for that one at present.
21:16.16macnewbold~pinhead is <reply> see zippy
21:16.16ibotokay, macnewbold
21:16.19macnewbold~pinhead
21:16.23macnewboldnice
21:16.24TimRikerheh
21:16.34macnewbold~doctor
21:16.35ibotmethinks doctor is Dr Who a renegade Time Lord who travels through time and space in this Tardis (cleverly disguised as a police box) fighting evil in all its forms and kicking some serious ass
21:16.42macnewbold~psychoanalyze-pinhead
21:17.00TimRikerheh. no such luck.
21:17.18macnewboldyeah, that would be bad in IRC...
21:20.25*** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@bi01p1.co.us.ibm.com)
21:21.42*** part/#utah macnewbold (n=mac@69.2.248.251)
21:26.05lars-ut-awayI just watched Dr Who(2005) 113 last night - awesome.
21:26.49lars-utAnybody else here been watchin' the new series?
21:27.32dataw0lfI'm a Sopranos and Carnivale man sir.  That's it.
21:27.40Jayce^Good Eats ++
21:28.42lars-utI like sci-fi, but I also like good writing on tv shows.  If I can get my hands on one season at a time, I'll watch it.
21:29.16lars-utFor me that has meant the new Battlestar Galactica, 24, Alias, Lost, Malcolm in the Middle...
21:29.29Jayce^hrm, so looks like the recent lack of plug mail was a sysadmin error..
21:29.35Jayce^he has been chastised
21:29.47Jayce^(he was playing with local interfaces on the switch)
21:29.51lars-utNumb3rs, The 4400...
21:30.29lars-utDoctor Who (2005), and of course, Invader Zim.
21:31.37lars-utI was so pleased today when asked which network aired a particular show I was describing, and I was unsure of the answer.
21:31.52lars-utOh yeah, I like CSI & NCIS as well.
21:34.14lars-utI watch TV in chunks and without commercials thanks to a well-established community of hdtv encoders, but I haven't built my Mythbox yet.
21:34.30lars-utback to work now.
21:48.13*** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@h460681f2.area1.spcsdns.net)
21:48.50leviThe language war in here was a few days ago. :)
21:48.59leviJayce^: Did you see I defended perl on PLUG?
21:50.11Jayce^yes, was quite impressed
21:53.50jsmithsjansen: Where to/from?
21:53.59jsmithsjansen: Back to Utah?
21:54.28sjansenReturning to Utah from Columbus, OH.
21:54.30hanshttp://www.howtofoldashirt.net/
21:54.34hagnasjansen: does it hurt to go from 3d to 2d
21:54.58Jayce^he had to travel to avoid attending plug
21:55.01sjansenhuh?
21:55.08Jayce^and competing with a fugal for new books
21:58.58*** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net)
21:59.03sjansenJayce^: So what ever happened to the Plug BBQ?
21:59.17Jayce^need to get a reservation
21:59.36bwhiteleythe flames burnt the meat to charcoal.
21:59.49Jayce^tried the othe rday and couldn't, haven't had time to call back
22:01.06hanshttp://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2005/08/physics_of_pass.html
22:01.11hansfitting for today
22:02.18neybar_laptopsjansen, so how is ole Columbus?  It's been a while since I was there.  
22:02.44sjansennot bad 80's and 90's, humid
22:03.00neybar_laptophumid is the bit that I'm not so fond of
22:03.27sjansenwell, you're in the right state then
22:03.33neybar_laptop:)
22:03.55hanscompared to nm, utah is humid
22:04.04hansat least, this valley and the one north are
22:04.06jsmithhans: Yes, it is...
22:05.40*** join/#utah wps (n=wade@66.237.80.85)
22:13.06vontrappooh, pretty clouds
22:29.51MaquisJayce^: can you put the plug bbq after the 28th of august?
22:30.16Jayce^was looking at the 27th
22:30.23Jayce^saturday
22:30.34Jayce^but not sure if it'll work
22:31.23Maquismy parents are in town til the 28th
22:31.31Maquisand we've got a family reunion the 26-27
22:31.38Maquisi wanna go to the bbq
22:31.41Jayce^when does school start?
22:32.31vontrappwish the wind was going to other way
22:33.13vontrapp29th
22:33.21vontrappMaquis: in town as in here?
22:33.25vontrappor there?
22:34.33xbmodder?
22:34.50vontrapp:?
22:35.07xbmoddervontrapp, is'nt that a vim thing?
22:35.26Maquisvontrapp: yeah... in town as in utah
22:35.48MaquisJayce^: school starts the 29th
22:35.57vontrappyou can skip out on a reunion for a coupla hours
22:36.04xbmodderlol
22:36.30Maquisvontrapp: nice try
22:37.13vontrappjust a couple hours, that's all
22:37.22vontrapptell them it's your geek-family reunion
22:38.59xbmoddertell them your server is down or something
22:39.10sjansentell them someone hacked your brain and made you leave using a psychic control signal
22:39.34xbmodderi think sjansen's idea is most likely to work.
22:39.42Jayce^just tell them you will be one of the only girls among a large group of guys with good earning potential
22:39.46Jayce^:)
22:39.50xbmodderlol
22:40.06vontrapptell them your mindgaurd server went down and you need to fix it or someone will use a psychic control signal on you and them all
22:40.19Maquisvontrapp: my parents would probably decide to take my computers and my car with them when they came back to washington
22:40.47MaquisJayce^: you probably have the most likely solution, but i don't think even that would work :(
22:41.08sjansenwell, one things certain, you have to start wearing them down today
22:41.16Maquisanyway, if it's at all possible to do it the weekend after, that'd be really nice
22:41.26Maquissjansen: there's no chance... trust me
22:41.45hansok, now when I change my password with samba, it syncs the regular ldap password too
22:41.57Maquisthe family reunion is the "big event" that they really care about all of us being there for
22:42.02Maquishmmm...
22:42.07hansbut it asks for SMB password which is sure to confuse my poor users.
22:42.11Maquiswhere's the plug bbq held, usually?
22:42.12xbmoddergood job.
22:42.19Maquisi mean... if it was at the same park as the family reunion...
22:42.32hagnagood thinking Maquis
22:42.38Jayce^wherever we can get a decent park
22:42.39hansanyone know of a way to have pam or openldap do the syncing magic?
22:42.51MaquisJayce^: i think the reunion's in sandy...
22:43.06Jayce^yeah, probably not then :)
22:43.11hagnayes but is it at a decent park?
22:43.24hansalos, smbpassword is a lot more lenient than the pam restrictions we have
22:43.31hansso we'll get weaker passwords.
22:43.59sjansenheh, treo's are taking over the world
22:44.08Jayce^sjansen, yeah, I'm getting one :)
22:44.27Maquismy dad got a treo
22:44.32hansor even better, can I somehow call into cracklib to check password validity myself
22:45.05Jayce^since *high school*....
22:45.45sjansenJayce^: you're going to have to get one for your son when he enters grade school
22:45.46neybar_laptopyeah, I've had the same phone for over a year now also... I feel your pain.
22:46.21vontrappdidn't have a phone before april this year
22:46.35xbmodder:(
22:46.54MaquisJayce^: let me rephrase that...  since senior year of high school
22:47.01Maquisabout a month before graduation
22:47.07Jayce^Maquis, I stand by my previous statement
22:47.15Maquisbefore that, my parents wouldn't let me drive without taking my mom's
22:47.16hagnadang nice try
22:47.28Maquisthey're a bit... protective
22:48.05Jayce^so in high school, I knew one family with a "car phone".....
22:48.46Jayce^"back in my day"
22:48.56sjansenI also got my phone about a month before graduation... from college... at that point I was an uber-senior
22:48.58hagnawhen mr roboto was popular
22:49.34jsmithMan, when I was in high school, there was no such thing as cell phones, at least in Wyoming.  People could still call each other by dialing 4 digits...
22:49.37sjansendomo origato mr roboto
22:49.56xbmodderJayce^, so you mean your in your late 30s?
22:49.56hagnadomo
22:50.05Maquisit's not my fault that you people are all old
22:50.05Jayce^no, not by a long shot
22:50.25Jayce^at least I'm not the oldest here
22:50.33sjansenMaquis: are you trying to shift the blame to us?
22:50.43hagnait's not our fault for being old
22:51.03Jayce^and while I'm older than sjansen, he's more crotchety
22:51.17vontrapplol
22:51.20hagnahey that reminds me of american music by violnet fems, was that popular in your school Jayce?
22:51.21Jayce^he really needs a cane..
22:51.28Jayce^yes
22:51.49RyanEso @Jayce^, quantos anos vc tem?
22:51.49hagnaI was born to late and you were born too soon and every time I look at that ugly room ....
22:52.22Jayce^vinte-nove, faz um pouco tempo ja
22:52.46RyanEtenho quase trinta-oito.
22:53.00Jayce^velinho rapaz
22:53.04hagnasjansen: no spitting at the kids
22:53.19sjansenhagna: hey! what are you doing! stay away from my lawn
22:54.15RyanEtenho que rir quando vcs falam que sao velho.  :)
22:54.38sjanseneven in my own day dreams I can't win!
22:54.48hagnadang
22:54.50Jayce^RyanE, sei, mas aparece so quando esses menininho's falam
22:55.33hagnahehe sjansens sounds like the yorkshireman http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=158773&cid=13301104
22:55.55RyanE@Jayce^, quando eles dizam que tem celular desde que HS...  puxa vida, sou velho!
22:56.07RyanEtime to go.  Tchau all!
22:56.10sjansenou pobre
22:56.13Jayce^tchauzinho
22:56.20Jayce^puxa mesmo
22:59.03sjansenI'm not relishing the though of missing my flight.
23:01.34goozbachdidn't you know... it's a pre-requisite to have a cell phone in high school now...
23:01.43goozbachdamn kids
23:02.05goozbach(I can say that because I'm officially a menace to society now)
23:03.17Maquis~menace goozbach
23:03.17ibotACTION threatens to beat goozbach into a bloody pulp.
23:03.37sjansen~welcome goozbach
23:03.37ibotHey, goozbach! Glad you could join us.
23:04.01sjansenoh, look, my plane
23:04.16goozbachde plane boss
23:04.19goozbachde plane
23:04.31Jayce^same height... :-p
23:04.47goozbachand understandablilty
23:04.50goozbach:)
23:06.27sjansen~time
23:06.27iboti heard time is 1 dimensional, or everlasting, or an illusion
23:06.27sjansen~date
23:06.28ibotFri Aug 12 23:06:28 2005
23:07.21jsmith~epoch
23:07.21ibotrumour has it, epoch is the end of an era.  For example y2k was a 2 digit year epoch.  The unix epoch on 32 bit hardware isn't until Jan 18 2038, by which time we will probably have all migrated to 64 bit architectures.  It's also a very ugly concept used by the debian packaging software.  For example: 2:0.0.0 is a higher version than 9.9.9 by itself.
23:07.34xbmoddergoozbach--
23:07.56xbmoddernobody has checked my treo Active chat guide
23:07.59xbmodder~karma
23:07.59ibotxbmodder has neutral karma
23:08.02xbmodder~karma goozbach
23:08.02ibotgoozbach has karma of 2
23:08.13xbmodder~say xbmodder++
23:08.13ibotxbmodder++
23:08.18xbmodder~karma
23:08.18ibotxbmodder has neutral karma
23:08.31jsmith~karma jsmith
23:08.31ibotjsmith has neutral karma
23:08.34sjansensjansen--
23:08.42goozbachwoot positive karma
23:08.45jsmithibot: jsmith++
23:10.13jsmithibot: sjansen++
23:20.19goozbach49 songs, all RBF, all hi-quality mp3
23:22.06goozbach"cause if I go out drinkin' I can stop thinkin' how the world's done me wrong"
23:22.41MaquisRBF?
23:22.45Maquisoh...
23:26.44*** join/#utah bigdog_ut (n=bigdog_u@shylonhunter.dsl.xmission.com)
23:29.04goozbachreel big fish
23:46.54xbmoddergoozbach, delete 7 songs and make it 42
23:56.52*** join/#utah synic (n=synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net)

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