| 00:04.14 | flyboy^ | Well, I guess I'm not going to get an answer - hopefully someone will ask the same question on the list. |
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| 00:54.31 | graphyx | Hello all. |
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| 01:31.13 | graphyx | What is the debian package manager command? |
| 01:31.15 | graphyx | Is it apt? |
| 01:31.31 | graphyx | apt-get. |
| 01:32.17 | graphyx | sweet. |
| 01:32.18 | graphyx | Thanks. |
| 01:32.24 | graphyx | That will make things go a bit better. |
| 01:32.36 | graphyx | Cause I could use that system as a launching pad for further attack.s |
| 01:32.41 | graphyx | and get more goods on them. |
| 01:32.58 | graphyx | wc |
| 01:34.05 | graphyx | thought I was in pentesting channel again. |
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| 02:29.40 | Maquis | graphyx: pentestomg |
| 02:29.51 | Maquis | pentesting? have you done that? |
| 02:29.55 | Maquis | it sounds like fun |
| 02:30.03 | graphyx | yeah. I work at a security company. |
| 02:30.09 | graphyx | Working on a 25 ip pen test. |
| 02:30.14 | graphyx | found a 1.3.4 apache server. |
| 02:30.29 | graphyx | Just need to code up some proper buffer overflow code and I'll be on the server. |
| 02:30.38 | Maquis | graphyx: how'd you learn all the stuff to do it? |
| 02:30.45 | graphyx | You just plod along. |
| 02:30.59 | graphyx | Pick up tips from others and work hard and understanding what is going on. |
| 02:31.11 | graphyx | I am just trying out new stuff all the time. |
| 02:31.13 | Maquis | but... it's kinda hard to get legal practice before you actually get a job, isn't it? |
| 02:31.26 | graphyx | That is what a lab environment is for. |
| 02:31.34 | graphyx | If you own every machine how is it illegal? |
| 02:31.42 | Maquis | true... :) |
| 02:32.05 | Maquis | is there a good reference anywhere for the laws behind pentesting? i'm guessing there's probably quite a few... |
| 02:32.21 | graphyx | Come on.. I am sure you could easily come up with 4 old 400 Mhz machines to put old versions of software on.. |
| 02:32.27 | graphyx | to pen test. |
| 02:32.32 | graphyx | I'm am best at web app security. |
| 02:32.41 | graphyx | so this apache stuff I am working on baffles me a little bit. |
| 02:32.50 | Maquis | i have 1 desktop and 1 laptop... |
| 02:32.57 | Maquis | i guess i could do some things with the desktop... |
| 02:33.04 | Maquis | but i don't have any of the basic info yet to do it... |
| 02:33.05 | graphyx | since my next step will be to create some shell code for apache 1.3.4 chunk encoded buffer overflow. |
| 02:33.23 | Maquis | i learned about nmap a couple months ago... |
| 02:33.41 | Maquis | shell code for a buffer-overflow... |
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| 02:46.49 | Maquis | graphyx: that sounds like a cool job! |
| 02:47.24 | graphyx | It is pretty fun. |
| 02:47.32 | graphyx | Did you see the job posting I sent to the list |
| 02:47.33 | graphyx | ? |
| 02:47.41 | graphyx | We are looking for some more entry level tech support reps. |
| 02:51.31 | Maquis | yeah... i saw it... |
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| 02:55.04 | graphyx | Just wanted to point it out to you . |
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| 03:19.33 | goozbach | I don't know if I can trust a LUG that doesn't have a mailing list and who's website is powered by phpnuke + phpbb |
| 03:20.09 | goozbach | damn, I want to be able to suggest local sources to my students this week but it's not looking good |
| 03:23.12 | JoshH | what about postnuke? :P |
| 03:25.42 | Maquis | goozbach: :) |
| 03:25.50 | Maquis | at least it's not done with asp |
| 03:26.42 | goozbach | It'd be cool if it was aspx running via mono on top of apache |
| 03:27.49 | Maquis | goozbach: yes... but asp is not cool |
| 03:27.52 | Maquis | inherently |
| 03:27.54 | Maquis | it's painful |
| 03:28.05 | Maquis | the thought of it makes me shudder |
| 03:28.20 | JoshH | it could be worse, at least its not frontpage |
| 03:29.53 | Maquis | ok... at least asp doesn't sit there and break itself... so, yeah... i guess you're right... |
| 03:30.06 | goozbach | now THIS is a lug... |
| 03:30.10 | goozbach | it's name... |
| 03:30.11 | goozbach | ... |
| 03:30.18 | Maquis | ??? |
| 03:30.19 | goozbach | CHUGALUG |
| 03:30.26 | Maquis | what's it stand for? |
| 03:30.54 | goozbach | Classic Hackers UGA Linux Users Group |
| 03:31.12 | Maquis | UGA? |
| 03:32.11 | goozbach | where UGA is University of Georga Atlanta |
| 03:32.41 | Maquis | ah... |
| 03:32.45 | Maquis | that is cool |
| 03:32.58 | JoshH | UUG has a nicer ring to it |
| 03:33.57 | goozbach | and they actually have a mailling list |
| 03:34.08 | goozbach | and NO phpbb forum system |
| 03:35.53 | goozbach | I should have suspected the college wouldn't have one |
| 03:36.04 | goozbach | it's a party school |
| 03:36.36 | goozbach | I had three girls trying to drag me out to a kegger |
| 03:36.46 | goozbach | one of them was pretty cute. |
| 03:36.53 | JoshH | trying? |
| 03:37.05 | goozbach | until she puked all over. |
| 03:37.08 | JoshH | to drag you? i would have been running to the kegger with them. |
| 03:37.29 | goozbach | JoshH: I didn't feel like getting drunk would have been a good idea |
| 03:37.32 | JoshH | well, maybe not if only one of the 3 was cute |
| 03:37.40 | JoshH | but then again it wouldnt have mattered much if i was drunk enough. |
| 03:37.54 | goozbach | seeing as I haven't been able to get up at all this week even without being hung-over |
| 03:41.01 | goozbach | and that's a bad thing when you are teaching a class at 9am |
| 03:44.37 | JoshH | You don't think the teacher showing up hung over and exhausted would be great for your company's image? :P |
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| 03:56.28 | tensai | moo |
| 04:05.24 | spr | baa |
| 04:07.03 | goozbach | boob! |
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| 05:54.03 | xbmodder | boob? |
| 05:54.08 | xbmodder | that was random |
| 05:54.13 | xbmodder | 65 diggs |
| 05:54.33 | xbmodder | Uau for all of the people who digged it. |
| 05:55.58 | bonez39 | boob |
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| 05:56.54 | Hhhhh | hello |
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| 06:19.21 | bonez39 | dumb question...how do I format a floppy? making a new set of floppy installation diskettes.. |
| 06:19.44 | RyanE_ | OS? |
| 06:19.45 | xbmodder | fdformat /dev/fd0h1440 |
| 06:19.59 | xbmodder | thinking its a high density 1.44 MB |
| 06:20.07 | xbmodder | and than mkfs.vfat /dev/fd0 |
| 06:20.12 | bonez39 | ok, that's working now... |
| 06:20.14 | RyanE_ | yeah, a 360kb format in DOS would be different. :) |
| 06:20.25 | bonez39 | is that an o "oh" or a 0 zero? |
| 06:20.47 | bonez39 | this is to create a linux boot floppy...to install sarge and then switch to networked installation |
| 06:21.42 | xbmodder | 0 |
| 06:21.44 | xbmodder | zero |
| 06:22.45 | Newsome | bonez39: what's on the box now? |
| 06:24.49 | bonez39 | Newsome: on my box here? linux, debian 3.0..... |
| 06:25.19 | bonez39 | when I find a pci card for SATA....and cable..I'll install my new 80gig hdd..and install debian 3.1 on it... |
| 06:25.59 | Newsome | bonez39: you could take the floppy disk image and have grub boot it directly |
| 06:26.31 | bonez39 | Newsome: not sure I am following you... |
| 06:26.34 | bonez39 | help me understand |
| 06:26.59 | bonez39 | and yeah, I run grub...much prefer it over lilo |
| 06:27.26 | Newsome | It's possible to add an entry into grub.conf that boots a floppy disk image file directly |
| 06:27.44 | Newsome | if you've already got a floppy, it's not a big deal, though |
| 06:28.02 | bonez39 | well, just formatting them, then dd'ing the image files to them..... |
| 06:29.07 | bonez39 | I am still not quite sure how I'll move my system over to this new drive......I am guessing I'll just remove my two existing drives....and boot up with the new one...alone..and format and install from floppy...then reconnect the two existing ones...and set new drive as slave..and start setting up from there |
| 06:32.51 | Newsome | Are you trying to move the entire system from old disks to the new SATA disks, or just copy over some data? |
| 06:36.24 | bonez39 | moving the entire system over.....but at the same time..I want to install debian 3.1 anew.... with the X.org instead of xfree86...and the gcc4, et al.....and then gradually migrate over all my applications.... |
| 06:36.43 | Newsome | okay, got it |
| 06:36.45 | bonez39 | what I'd like it dual boot, so that at grub time..I can specify, to load the current system or the new system on the new drive... |
| 06:37.18 | bonez39 | then when I have all I want moved, installed, etc..then I can hose both drives...low level format and keep them around as archival drives.... |
| 06:37.34 | bonez39 | Newsome: Is this a task you have tackled a bit before? |
| 06:37.58 | Newsome | yeah |
| 06:39.41 | bonez39 | am I thinking of it the right way? |
| 06:39.51 | Newsome | probably install the SATA disks first, and use grub from there to boot either the old disks or the new disks |
| 06:40.20 | bonez39 | currently I have a 3 gig drive..where grub or the bootloader resides..it starts and then shifts the attention to hdb....where the rest of loading and running occurs |
| 06:40.32 | bonez39 | ok.... |
| 06:41.25 | Newsome | then, you'll need to make sure that the SATA drive boots first, before the regular ATA drives |
| 06:42.08 | bonez39 | ok........you mean when I finally have OS loaded to SATA..and running all disks together? have SATA boot up first? |
| 06:43.08 | Newsome | yes, and add an entry into the new grub.conf on SATA drive to allow it to boot the old system |
| 06:44.32 | bonez39 | I haven't tweaked my grub.conf lately, but I am sure it's not too complicated |
| 06:45.53 | Newsome | not too complicated. You'll probably be able to even copy over the relevant entry from your old disk |
| 06:51.43 | bonez39 | I am hoping so... |
| 06:52.10 | bonez39 | I checked with a couple shops here in Sandy for the adapter card...maybe trying CompUSA or BestBuy tomorrow...to get it |
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| 13:14.21 | graphyx | Great we have a senatorial candidate who can blog... |
| 13:14.50 | graphyx | I wonder if he typed it in himself or if his campaign manager did it all.. |
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| 13:59.29 | hans | what the |
| 13:59.42 | hans | nx is interpreting my caps lock as caps lock. how dare it? |
| 14:00.36 | graphyx | on the inhumanity.. |
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| 15:06.03 | levi | Morning |
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| 15:18.45 | Maquis | levi: not yet... |
| 15:18.49 | Maquis | a few more hours... |
| 15:19.07 | levi | Maquis: It's still morning, even in Washington. |
| 15:19.23 | Maquis | sure doesn't look like it... |
| 15:19.32 | Maquis | it's gloomy and dark outside |
| 15:19.44 | levi | So? You're in Washington, it's often like that in the afternoon. |
| 15:19.46 | Maquis | (my cube has a window out on the stadium) |
| 15:20.01 | Maquis | still... it can't be morning |
| 15:20.09 | Maquis | the only thing i'll accept is that it is friday |
| 15:20.34 | Jayce^ | Maquis, which stadium? husky? |
| 15:21.36 | Bradipo | levi: How do I list an already defined procedure in Lisp? |
| 15:22.06 | Bradipo | (list x)? |
| 15:22.15 | bonez39 | gloomy and dark means water and cooler temps...;) |
| 15:22.15 | levi | Bradipo: Find the source code and open it in a text file, unless you happen to be on a Lisp machine, in which case I'm not sure. |
| 15:22.31 | Bradipo | I'm using the interpreter interactively at the moment. |
| 15:22.36 | Bradipo | I think (list x) works. |
| 15:22.43 | levi | What Lisp are you using? |
| 15:22.54 | Maquis | Jayce^: safeco field and qwest field |
| 15:22.56 | levi | And (list x) will give you a list that contains symbol x. |
| 15:23.08 | Bradipo | Ahh. |
| 15:23.10 | Bradipo | Interesting. |
| 15:23.14 | Bradipo | I see. |
| 15:23.19 | Maquis | and nobody else on my team is in so far... |
| 15:23.31 | Bradipo | So it isn't really ``listing'' the contents of the procedure. |
| 15:23.40 | Bradipo | It is taking the procedure and making a list out of it. |
| 15:23.55 | levi | No... list is the special form that creates a list from its arguments. |
| 15:24.01 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 15:24.13 | Bradipo | That's what I just said. |
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| 15:24.22 | levi | What lisp are you using? |
| 15:24.26 | Bradipo | scm |
| 15:24.35 | Bradipo | Scheme I guess... |
| 15:24.40 | levi | Ahh, okay. |
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| 15:25.00 | Bradipo | Should be the same though right? |
| 15:25.04 | Jayce^ | Maquis, you are right downtown then.. |
| 15:25.10 | Maquis | Jayce^: union station |
| 15:25.29 | levi | Hmm, actually list is just a function, and it evaluates its arguments just like any other function. At least in common lisp. |
| 15:25.49 | Maquis | well, qwest field is in the way... so i can't really see anything out there right now |
| 15:25.54 | Maquis | not to mention the visibility today |
| 15:26.17 | Maquis | the weather reports said it's going to be in the mid 80s today... |
| 15:26.24 | Bradipo | Is there is a list of built-in functions somewhere? |
| 15:26.35 | Maquis | Bradipo: where you working? |
| 15:26.41 | Bradipo | SCO. |
| 15:26.50 | Maquis | still haven't managed to get out of there? |
| 15:26.54 | Bradipo | lol |
| 15:26.58 | levi | Bradipo: There's a scm website that has documentation. |
| 15:27.16 | Bradipo | Ok, let me find it. |
| 15:27.43 | levi | Bradipo: http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu/~jaffer/SCM.html |
| 15:27.45 | Maquis | Bradipo: what's it like there? i mean... does it feel evil??? |
| 15:27.52 | Bradipo | Doesn't feel evil to me. |
| 15:28.01 | levi | Do you have to use scm? There are better scheme implementations. |
| 15:28.02 | Bradipo | Feels like ordinary people trying their best to do their job. |
| 15:28.23 | Bradipo | levi: No, I just stumbled upon this first. :-) |
| 15:28.32 | levi | Maquis: Does it feel evil working at Amazon, with that one-click patent and all? |
| 15:28.36 | Maquis | hmmm... your office must be a long ways away from all the evil ones, then... |
| 15:28.47 | RyanE | Bradipo: Do you know Jim Mitchell and Scott Hawker? |
| 15:28.56 | levi | Bradipo: I hear good things about Scheme48, Gambit, and Chicken. |
| 15:29.00 | Bradipo | RyanE: Yes, I do indeed. |
| 15:29.02 | Maquis | levi: actually, that came up on the mailing list... and we had a great flamewar on patent law... |
| 15:29.17 | Bradipo | You mean, Dave Mitchell? |
| 15:29.25 | RyanE | Bradipo: I worked with them years and years ago at Erudite. Yes, Dave Mitchell. duh |
| 15:29.41 | Maquis | personally, i think it's stupid, but at least a bit less evil than sco... |
| 15:29.53 | levi | Maquis: I never really cared much about it, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy evident in your question. :) |
| 15:30.03 | Bradipo | Maquis: In your opinion, what makes SCO evil? |
| 15:30.07 | Maquis | levi: :) |
| 15:30.31 | Maquis | Bradipo: the whole thing with what they're doing to linux and fighting against the GPL and suing people for no reason |
| 15:30.33 | Bradipo | I mean, I could say the same thing about Microsoft or IBM. |
| 15:30.45 | levi | Bradipo: mzscheme is also very widely used. |
| 15:30.48 | Bradipo | IBM has a much longer history of squashing the little guy. |
| 15:30.59 | Maquis | but these days, IBM doesn't seem too evil... they' |
| 15:31.04 | Maquis | ve done some good stuff for OSS |
| 15:31.05 | mheath | Bradipo, I think what most people dislike about SCO is that their executives are stupid people who rushed into a pointless lawsuit effecting something they love |
| 15:31.07 | Bradipo | levi: Isn't there one called clisp? |
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| 15:31.09 | RyanE | In my opinion, SCO is not evil, but pursuing the lawsuit strategy while *likely* knowing they had no evidence of infringement was quite dodgy. |
| 15:31.36 | levi | Bradipo: clisp is Common Lisp, not Scheme |
| 15:31.39 | Bradipo | Maquis: Really? Why don't you ask them to release all of their patents to the public? |
| 15:31.41 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, I think most people agree that IBM has been evil, but as of late, has worked hard to redeem themselves (we're still watching them though) |
| 15:31.51 | mheath | I personally don't think SCO should exist. They haven't ever produced of distributed technologies they didn't buy up. They do very little of their own work. |
| 15:31.53 | levi | Bradipo: And unless you need to run on Windows, it's not a great Common Lisp either. |
| 15:31.56 | Bradipo | levi: Oh, you were only giving me scheme interpreters... |
| 15:31.56 | mheath | *or |
| 15:32.12 | levi | Bradipo: Interpreters/Compilers |
| 15:32.13 | Newsome | Looks like I showed up at just the right time!!! |
| 15:32.27 | Jayce^ | Newsome++ |
| 15:32.31 | Maquis | Newsome: :) |
| 15:32.53 | levi | Bradipo: For Lisp compilers, look at sbcl and cmucl, and slime.el for emacs to communicate with them. |
| 15:32.58 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, you should have applied here when we had sysadmin openings |
| 15:33.00 | Bradipo | levi: That begs the question... WHat is the difference between Lisp and Scheme? |
| 15:33.03 | levi | Bradipo: Again, unless you need Windows. |
| 15:33.19 | Bradipo | levi: What's Windows? |
| 15:33.25 | levi | Bradipo: Common Lisp is a Lisp, and Scheme is also a Lisp that predates Common Lisp, and from which it got some of its features. |
| 15:33.40 | Bradipo | I see. |
| 15:33.55 | Bradipo | But Scheme is the most commonly used Lisp currently? |
| 15:34.16 | Bradipo | mheath: Unfortunately, I don't know all the history at SCO. |
| 15:34.19 | levi | Bradipo: But Scheme is a small core language that's designed to be elegant and as simple as possible, and most implementations have a lot of sometimes-incompatible extensions to do useful things that aren't covered in the Scheme standard. |
| 15:34.31 | Bradipo | I started working for Caldera before all the SCO stuff happened. |
| 15:35.44 | mheath | Bradipo, from what I understand, they started up as a mediocre and small technology company in California |
| 15:36.02 | levi | Bradipo: Common Lisp is a more practically-oriented language that has a sizeable library of utility functions defined in the standard. The Common Lisp standard doesn't require tail-call optimization, so it includes iterative language constructs, while in Scheme you have to phrase your iteration recursively. |
| 15:36.02 | mheath | All their sucess since then has been through buying technologies from failing companies and slightly improving them |
| 15:36.04 | Bradipo | mheath: The customers we do have apparently like our products. |
| 15:36.13 | Bradipo | Or the business that our products allow them to conduct. |
| 15:37.10 | levi | Bradipo: Scheme has first-class continuations, which were deemed too difficult to make interoperate correctly with Common Lisp's safety mechanisms to include in CL. |
| 15:37.21 | mheath | SCO though, in my opinion, used to be a very nice and reputable company. |
| 15:38.41 | RyanE | Years ago, a co-worker of mine at Erudite called SCO with a problem, and after hours on the phone, the support person told him he should sacrifice a chicken to the server. He was apparently quickly fired, as the call was being monitored. |
| 15:38.58 | Bradipo | lol |
| 15:39.04 | Bradipo | Do you know who the support guy was? |
| 15:39.10 | Maquis | haha... that's a great piece of advice |
| 15:39.14 | Bradipo | Or how many years ago are you talking about? |
| 15:39.24 | RyanE | this was YEARS ago... like 93 or 94 |
| 15:39.51 | RyanE | and I didnt' talk to the support rep, only the co-worker did. |
| 15:39.58 | mheath | Hey, I'm mildly curious about something |
| 15:40.12 | Bradipo | RyanE: There certainly were colorful people working for SCO back then. |
| 15:40.23 | mheath | What operating system were you (or would you have been, if you weren't around or too young at the time) using back in 90, 91? |
| 15:40.34 | Jayce^ | DOS |
| 15:40.34 | levi | Bradipo: Common Lisp is also an attempt to bring together features of all the major Lisps that came before it, so its got a lot of historical quirks that have built up over the years. Scheme has much fewer of those, but then it's missing a ton of what are essentially library functions that Common Lisp has, which are where most of the quirks are. |
| 15:40.36 | Bradipo | DOS. |
| 15:40.41 | Maquis | mheath: Mac OS... |
| 15:40.48 | Bradipo | Although had I known about UNIX, I probably would have been using that instead. |
| 15:40.58 | RyanE | DOS / HP-UX 8.0 / Apple II games |
| 15:41.02 | RyanE | or 7.0 |
| 15:41.03 | mheath | No MINIXites? :( |
| 15:41.16 | Bradipo | levi: So it sounds like I should stick with Scheme. |
| 15:41.19 | RyanE | I guess HP-UX was 92 |
| 15:41.20 | levi | mheath: MacOS, DOS, Apple II. |
| 15:41.24 | Maquis | mheath: i used Mac OSs from the time that I was 3 until i got to college... |
| 15:41.35 | Bradipo | I always wondered why there was Scheme and then there was Lisp (in some form). |
| 15:41.54 | mheath | At that time (I was only 2, or 3) we had an old Zenith Z-100 computer |
| 15:42.08 | mheath | We had MS-DOS 2.0 on it, and an early build of Windows |
| 15:42.15 | levi | Bradipo: Not necessarily. Common Lisp compilers are very mature and often faster than Scheme. Common Lisp has a lot of really cool stuff in it. And Practical Common Lisp (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/) is a great tutorial guide to those nifty features. |
| 15:42.24 | mheath | (It was very special, and required a modded version of MS-DOS, which they stopped making after 2.0...) |
| 15:42.47 | Bradipo | Ahh, the old days. I remember programming my first basic on a C-64 I believe, or was there a model before that? |
| 15:42.53 | mheath | Though we had some released-to-the-government-only patches to MS-DOS 2.0 that greatly improved it |
| 15:43.08 | levi | Bradipo: If you pick a Scheme and do something interesting in it, chances are you'll use a lot of libraries that are incompatible with other Schemes. |
| 15:43.15 | mheath | My dad worked in a USAF lab that used the things |
| 15:43.24 | levi | Bradipo: If you use Common Lisp, it's much easier to make useful, portable programs. |
| 15:43.25 | Bradipo | levi: So my code wouldn't be portable? |
| 15:43.56 | levi | Bradipo: Not unless you were very careful. |
| 15:43.58 | Bradipo | Well, I don't plan to use it for any serious coding at the moment, just curiosity. |
| 15:44.42 | levi | Either one is fine for that, really. |
| 15:45.44 | Maquis | w00t! |
| 15:47.35 | levi | If you just want to learn how Scheme works, DrScheme has an ide and language modes that go along with some textbooks that help you understand how it works. There's also a scheme or two that has a tightly-integrated emacs mode. For Common Lisp, there's SLIME, an emacs mode that connects with your Lisp image and gives you a Lisp IDE. |
| 15:48.10 | mheath | This is driving me insane |
| 15:48.20 | Maquis | mheath: what? |
| 15:48.23 | mheath | I got the newest Harry Potter book for a friend |
| 15:48.28 | mheath | For his birthday |
| 15:48.34 | mheath | and I started reading it before I gave it to him |
| 15:48.44 | levi | Heh. |
| 15:48.47 | mheath | now I'm in the middle of it |
| 15:48.56 | mheath | and I won't get to finish it for 3 weeks |
| 15:49.05 | *** join/#utah el_gaucho (~bigdog_ut@shylonhunter.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 15:49.10 | mheath | Beacuse I don't get paid until next week, and I leave for my training the day after that |
| 15:49.34 | mheath | The suspense is killing me :P |
| 15:49.59 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@firebat.aros.net) |
| 15:51.16 | Maquis | haha |
| 15:52.19 | Maquis | can you borrow some money from a friend to go buy the book, then pay them back when you get paid? |
| 15:52.25 | Maquis | or from parents? |
| 15:52.34 | jsmith | Maquis: Just bleep out the details --- like this: ***** falls in love with *****, **** ***** with a *****, and ***** get killed with a ****** |
| 15:52.48 | jsmith | s/get/gets/ |
| 15:52.56 | Maquis | jsmith: **** gets killed by ****** |
| 15:53.06 | mheath | Maquis, I was thinking of doing so |
| 15:53.09 | Maquis | because ***** couldn't do it |
| 15:53.13 | Maquis | mheath: i'd recommend it... |
| 15:53.21 | mheath | although I already owe my dad a lot of money |
| 15:53.34 | Newsome | ******** in the Library with a candlestick |
| 15:53.35 | mheath | And I already had to ask him for about $20 for essential stuff today |
| 15:53.35 | Maquis | what's another 17$ |
| 15:53.43 | levi | Or you could just borrow it from one of the zillion people who bought it and then finished it the next day. |
| 15:53.49 | mheath | Maquis, $15, walmart :D |
| 15:53.58 | jsmith | Try the public library... |
| 15:54.03 | Newsome | hahahaha |
| 15:54.08 | mheath | Newsome, no, no! ******** in the ********* with a ********** |
| 15:54.12 | mheath | Spoiler! |
| 15:54.39 | mheath | jsmith, yeah, I 'spect I'd get to read it sometime next year |
| 15:54.44 | Newsome | The Orem public library had a waiting list 70 people long, and that was before the book even came out. |
| 15:57.10 | tensai | don't count on getting it at the library any time in the next 5-10 years |
| 15:57.50 | Maquis | up here, i've seen quite a few places selling it for > 30$ |
| 15:57.56 | Maquis | and doing pretty well... |
| 15:58.03 | mheath | I was just about to start the chapter "The Unbreakable Oath" or whatever |
| 15:58.51 | Bradipo | Its going for $15.74 at Costco. |
| 15:59.02 | Maquis | mheath: that's not very far in |
| 15:59.12 | mheath | Same price as at Walmart, Bradipo |
| 15:59.18 | mheath | Maquis, its about half way. |
| 15:59.24 | Bradipo | Same, or is Walmart actually cheaper? |
| 15:59.31 | mheath | Same. |
| 15:59.35 | Bradipo | Interesting. |
| 15:59.45 | tensai | Walmart was all sold out when we went |
| 15:59.53 | mheath | Really? |
| 15:59.56 | Maquis | sure there's got to be at least one somewhere, but i'm not sure where ti is |
| 16:00.00 | mheath | When I went a few days after, they had piles of them |
| 16:00.18 | tensai | I'm thinking our walmart manager was short sighted |
| 16:00.45 | levi | I've seen tons of them at WalMarts. |
| 16:01.17 | tensai | Maquis: http://tinyurl.com/bbbfc |
| 16:02.00 | mheath | be back in a bit |
| 16:02.04 | Maquis | tensai: nothing very close to me |
| 16:02.55 | tensai | Maquis: shouldn't you be ordering everything from amazon anyway? isn't that in your contract? |
| 16:03.11 | Maquis | tensai: it's not, but i did get harry potter from them |
| 16:03.31 | levi | Wow, Alan Kay just got layed off by HP. |
| 16:03.35 | Bradipo | I buy most of my books from Amazon.com |
| 16:04.01 | Bradipo | Got tired of bn.com who always seemed to not get the order to me as quickly, or even have it in stock. |
| 16:04.04 | Maquis | levi: i know i should recognize that name... but would you care to explain for those of us who don't quite know who he is? |
| 16:04.11 | Maquis | Bradipo: :) |
| 16:04.18 | tensai | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kay |
| 16:04.21 | levi | One of the guys from the heyday of Xerox Parc. |
| 16:04.38 | Maquis | oh... right... i think he was in one of the movies we watched in cs404 |
| 16:04.40 | levi | He coined the term 'Object-Oriented Programming' |
| 16:05.04 | levi | And lots of things too numerous to mention here. |
| 16:05.41 | *** join/#utah mrpull-lt (~mrpull-lt@66.133.111.228) |
| 16:06.40 | tensai | "We need to cut head count. Let's get rid of that guy with all the ideas. You can't sell ideas." |
| 16:06.48 | tensai | yeah, I'll bet that'll work out well |
| 16:21.23 | Jayce^ | that'll keep your eyes open... |
| 16:21.39 | Jayce^ | with his intake, most normal people wouldn't shut their eyes for a very long time |
| 16:23.21 | hans | first one is free |
| 16:24.14 | tensai | hans: there's a payday loan place near my house that has a sign that says "First loan is interest free". I wondered if they sold crack too. |
| 16:31.40 | goozbach | somebody say caffiene? |
| 16:32.44 | tensai | goozbach: that's one of your highlight words, isn't it |
| 16:33.16 | goozbach | tensai: jes ... |
| 16:46.35 | vontrapp | I was just shopping in maceys the day after harry came out, and there was a pile of them by the checkouts |
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| 16:47.17 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 16:50.22 | goozbach | root beer + caffiene... |
| 16:50.24 | vontrapp | what package provides dos2unix? |
| 16:50.33 | goozbach | is there much better? |
| 16:50.42 | vontrapp | goozbach: isn't that barg's? |
| 16:51.16 | goozbach | no, it's a q |
| 16:51.51 | goozbach | and it's pronounced 'barks' |
| 16:53.39 | goozbach | it's pi approximation day |
| 16:53.42 | goozbach | 22/7 |
| 16:54.59 | jsmith | goozbach: If you've ever been to Biloxi, Mississippi, you'd understand what gives Barqs it's bite. |
| 16:56.44 | Bradipo | vontrapp: I usually just use sed. |
| 16:57.47 | hans | for what? |
| 16:57.50 | hans | I missed something |
| 16:57.57 | goozbach | dos2unix |
| 16:58.01 | hans | oh, dos2unix |
| 16:58.09 | hans | Bradipo: what's the sed for that? |
| 16:58.10 | Bradipo | s/^M$// |
| 16:58.13 | hans | I usually just use vim |
| 16:58.27 | hans | vim foo |
| 16:58.31 | hans | :set ff=unix |
| 16:58.32 | hans | :wq |
| 16:58.32 | goozbach | sed +\n\r+\n+ |
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| 17:02.03 | jsmith | hans: Get your Sipura? |
| 17:02.12 | hans | it's closer - it's in PG now |
| 17:02.14 | hans | tonight... |
| 17:02.32 | hans | although I haven't had a chance to properly prep my asterisk server yet |
| 17:05.27 | neybar_work | vontrapp, I assume you are using debian.. the package that has dos2unix is sysutils |
| 17:22.40 | vontrapp | thx |
| 17:22.55 | vontrapp | hans: for some reason vim doesn't grok it |
| 17:23.03 | vontrapp | it's mac line endings actually |
| 17:25.04 | tensai | hans: what model Sipura? |
| 17:25.44 | jsmith | tensai: I think he was getting a 1001 |
| 17:26.54 | vontrapp | when i open it, the line ends are green ^M |
| 17:27.48 | vontrapp | i did something thta turned them to ^J |
| 17:27.56 | vontrapp | but can't make that happen again |
| 17:28.00 | vontrapp | don't know what idid |
| 17:29.03 | jsmith | vontrapp: Run vim, type ":%s/<ctrl-v><ctrl-J>//" |
| 17:33.26 | Bradipo | vontrapp: Aren't Mac line endings just \r without the \n? |
| 17:33.57 | Bradipo | I always thought DOS was \r\n, UNIX \n and Mac \r. |
| 17:34.12 | hans | vontrapp: it's probably an impure file then |
| 17:34.19 | Bradipo | But now that Mac is *nix, shouldn't it be \n? |
| 17:34.19 | hans | some unix, some mac, or something like that |
| 17:34.21 | hans | tensai: 1001 |
| 17:35.00 | hans | when I edit files from the command line in os x, I get unix endings |
| 17:35.00 | vontrapp | Bradipo: yeah, but some lame programs (Excel for Mac) are braindead |
| 17:35.20 | hans | buty ou're right about the old mac endings being \r only |
| 17:35.35 | hans | and I'm sure os x will do its darndest to handle those gracefully |
| 17:35.46 | vontrapp | i don't know what the deal is |
| 17:35.50 | vontrapp | i s/ |
| 17:35.52 | vontrapp | doh |
| 17:36.08 | hans | the most common situation is every line ends in \r but then there's a final \n |
| 17:36.10 | vontrapp | i s/^V^M/\n/g and i get ^@ |
| 17:36.16 | Bradipo | You could always look at the file through hexdump or od... |
| 17:36.18 | vontrapp | i s/\r/\n/g and i get the same thing |
| 17:36.22 | hans | vim thinks it's a unix file, and so you get ^J everywhere |
| 17:36.22 | Bradipo | Ahh. |
| 17:36.27 | Bradipo | You don't want ^V^M |
| 17:36.29 | Bradipo | You want just ^M. |
| 17:36.56 | vontrapp | ^v^m is the keystroke to get ^M |
| 17:37.00 | Bradipo | Ahh. |
| 17:37.00 | Bradipo | Ok. |
| 17:37.14 | hans | isn't ^@ == \n? ^M == eol (shifty personality), ^J == \r |
| 17:37.14 | Bradipo | I normally use ctrl-v enter. |
| 17:37.29 | Bradipo | But I suppose they result in the same character. |
| 17:37.41 | Bradipo | I think ^@ is the 0 character. |
| 17:37.45 | Bradipo | NULL. |
| 17:37.48 | hans | not necessarily, although I couldn't tell you how |
| 17:37.53 | hans | you're right, it's null. I forgot that. |
| 17:38.11 | hans | vontrapp: look at a hex dump |
| 17:38.13 | hans | xxd |
| 17:38.15 | vontrapp | finally |
| 17:38.19 | vontrapp | :set ff=mac |
| 17:38.31 | vontrapp | s/\r/^v^<ENTER>/g |
| 17:38.33 | vontrapp | :set ff=unix |
| 17:38.34 | vontrapp | :sq |
| 17:38.46 | vontrapp | er, :wq |
| 17:39.19 | hans | do you still have a copy of the original |
| 17:39.33 | vontrapp | i have a second original i haven't done yet |
| 17:39.39 | hans | email it to me |
| 17:39.52 | hans | unless it's top secret nucular secrets. |
| 17:40.04 | mheath | hehehe, I just cleaned my keyboard |
| 17:40.13 | mheath | Compressed air + cleaner |
| 17:40.39 | Bradipo | You could also make this into a sed script. |
| 17:41.12 | Bradipo | s/^M/\ |
| 17:41.27 | Bradipo | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:41.48 | Bradipo | Yes, that is a two liner. |
| 17:41.59 | Bradipo | But eliminate the space in front of the /g |
| 17:42.19 | vontrapp | um, that killed my terminal |
| 17:53.52 | hans | so this here server booted with only 4 processors reporting this time (it has 4 hyperthreading processors, usually shows up as 8) |
| 17:54.11 | hans | the question is, did a processor miss the boat or is hyperthreading off? no kernel changes |
| 17:54.15 | hans | how do you tell? |
| 17:55.19 | gthornock | vontrapp: dos2unix is provided by /usr/ports/converters/unix2dos :) |
| 18:02.14 | Bradipo | hans: dmesg would probably report that information. |
| 18:02.32 | Bradipo | vontrapp: echo -ne "s/^M/\\\n/g" > somefile.sed |
| 18:02.44 | Bradipo | sed -f somefile.sed inputfile > outputfile |
| 18:02.57 | Bradipo | Where ^M is generated with ctrl-v enter (or ctrl-m) |
| 18:04.09 | vontrapp | does php have a yaml parser? |
| 18:10.46 | hans | dmesg is not helping me. unless someone can confirm that it says so when hyperthreading _is_ enabled. |
| 18:13.38 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 18:13.40 | neybar_work | I have hyperthreading enabled. The only message that I am seeing concerning hyperthreading is that it is disabled (even though two cpus show up in cpuinfo) |
| 18:14.31 | hans | heh. what does that message look like? |
| 18:18.17 | tensai | apparently freebsd prints a real nice message about whether it's enabled or not. does that help? |
| 18:27.54 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:35.25 | vontrapp | ~spell leuiiu |
| 18:37.14 | vontrapp | ~xoo |
| 18:42.58 | mheath | Hmm |
| 18:43.10 | mheath | I had an idea. A kind of fun, interesting project to work on |
| 18:43.19 | mheath | More of a proof-of-concept than anything |
| 18:43.45 | mheath | An ultimately secure workstation |
| 18:44.07 | hans | vontrapp: what is ffs set to in vim? |
| 18:44.12 | mheath | fingerprint ID, strong passwords, hard disk encryption, automatic lockdown, automatic changes in passwords |
| 18:44.33 | vontrapp | ah, ffs=unix,dos |
| 18:44.41 | vontrapp | that's probably it |
| 18:45.06 | mheath | Basically, a computer that is impossible to use and impossible to access the data on (even with physical access) unless you're an authorized user |
| 18:45.29 | vontrapp | define impossible to use |
| 18:45.34 | vontrapp | as in, can't boot knoppix on it? |
| 18:45.39 | hans | vontrapp: yup when I add mac to my ffs, it opens your file just fine |
| 18:45.55 | mheath | vontrapp, not even that |
| 18:46.06 | mheath | vontrapp, OpenBIOS |
| 18:46.06 | hans | that doesn't change the fact that your file has no terminating eol, but vim can handle that cracefully (says [noel] when you hit ctrl-g |
| 18:46.08 | vontrapp | that's as easy as not booting off the cdrom and password locking the bios i guess |
| 18:46.09 | hans | ) |
| 18:46.18 | mheath | or that, too :D |
| 18:47.03 | tensai | vontrapp: bioses can be often be reset with a carefully done short circuit |
| 18:47.13 | vontrapp | hmm, ture |
| 18:47.15 | vontrapp | ture |
| 18:47.21 | vontrapp | t r u e |
| 18:47.27 | vontrapp | hmmph |
| 18:47.33 | mheath | case lock? |
| 18:47.57 | vontrapp | you could remove the cd drive |
| 18:48.27 | vontrapp | of course, one could always swap out the hard drive for one they can use... |
| 18:48.52 | mheath | heavy duty case, case lock |
| 18:49.04 | vontrapp | cutting torch? |
| 18:49.09 | vontrapp | :p |
| 18:49.30 | tensai | before you can define "secure" you have to identify what you want it to resist. are you trying to protect it against script kiddies or large government entities? |
| 18:49.33 | vontrapp | i'll use your computer! i'll find a way! |
| 18:49.52 | mheath | tensai, both. I'm not paranoid, I just thought this would be interesting. |
| 18:50.26 | xbmodder_ | hey |
| 18:50.27 | mheath | vontrapp, I could put in a switch. If the side panel is removed, the computer would turn on and start blanking out the HDD |
| 18:50.46 | vontrapp | making the /information/ on the computer inaccessible is doable |
| 18:51.04 | tensai | mheath: I'm thinking explosives would need to be involved at some point |
| 18:51.42 | xbmodder_ | yay! |
| 18:52.19 | vontrapp | "But if it explodes all fast-like, won't it just make a big BOOM?" |
| 18:53.04 | mheath | When you first login, you'd need a positive fingerprint ID, a 20+ character strong password for authentication, a 20+ character strong key for HDD decryption, and a wireless key I'm looking at |
| 18:53.19 | xbmodder_ | for wireless |
| 18:53.28 | vontrapp | for proximity |
| 18:53.35 | xbmodder_ | MAC based security, WEP, WPA and tunneling through ipsec |
| 18:53.44 | xbmodder_ | radius authentication server |
| 18:54.12 | mheath | If you're inactive for 5 minutes, or you fail to reauthenticate within 30, or the wireless key goes away, or you tamper with any of the security hardware (unplug the fingerprint pad, or the lock for the wireless key) then it locks down |
| 18:54.15 | vontrapp | at some point, you have to venture out into the wild wild web |
| 18:54.43 | mheath | completely inaccessible for 30 minutes |
| 18:55.02 | mheath | e-mails an alert to the administrators e-mail account (elsewhere) and possible several other alert methods |
| 18:55.16 | mheath | bbiab |
| 18:55.41 | vontrapp | fires seltzer out the trackpad at offenders eyes |
| 18:55.46 | vontrapp | ~spritz mheath |
| 18:55.52 | vontrapp | dang |
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| 19:59.19 | Jayce^ | there is this magical time, the moment you realize that your process has been running for a couple hours, and is only 25% done, and you note... |
| 19:59.31 | Jayce^ | I *really* should have started that in a screen session |
| 19:59.39 | vontrapp | :) |
| 20:00.14 | vontrapp | wish there was a way to attach a running process to a screen |
| 20:00.20 | Jayce^ | no kidding |
| 20:00.44 | tensai | I can't count the number of times that's happened to me |
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| 20:26.36 | Bradipo | Jayce^: That's why I run everything in screen. |
| 20:26.52 | Bradipo | Each one of my xterms has an instance of screen running in it. |
| 20:27.25 | Bradipo | Except for one which I use for servers that don't know how to handle screen termcap settings... |
| 20:29.59 | Bradipo | I only recently had the impetus to learn copy/paste from within screen. |
| 20:30.08 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@66.219.227.114) |
| 20:30.15 | Bradipo | Because I wasn't running in X. |
| 20:30.50 | lars-ut | I've setup default screen sets & that's about it. |
| 20:32.13 | lars-ut | I run history | grep a lot and it seems the commands I typed in screen are not present. |
| 20:32.53 | Bradipo | That's because of how the bash history file works. |
| 20:33.01 | Bradipo | Each time you exit bash it overwrites it. |
| 20:33.09 | Bradipo | So the last version of bash is what will show up in your history. |
| 20:33.19 | lars-ut | workaround? |
| 20:33.24 | Bradipo | Not sure if there is. |
| 20:33.40 | tensai | Bradipo: not overwrite, append. at least current versions of bash |
| 20:34.05 | Bradipo | tensai: Right, but if you have 10 open at once and you close X, each one has the file open, which one wins? |
| 20:34.52 | tensai | I'm not sure but I've never had my .bash_history nuked. I'll have to set up an experiment and see. |
| 20:35.03 | Bradipo | Happens all the time to me. I'm probably not running the most recent at 3.00.16. |
| 20:35.18 | Bradipo | Well, it isn't getting nuked. |
| 20:35.22 | lars-ut | I've never had mine nuked - but I've lost whole sessions because I was using screen. |
| 20:35.26 | Bradipo | Just not all the commands from all sessions of bash show up there. |
| 20:36.03 | lars-ut | What's the point in having a history file that doesn't contain your command history? |
| 20:36.16 | lars-ut | grrr |
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| 20:36.35 | Bradipo | Well, when they wrote it they probably weren't planning for multiple bash sessions running concurrently and some of them having sub-bash sessions within screen. |
| 20:36.57 | lars-ut | screen is like 20 years old |
| 20:37.07 | Bradipo | ps auxw | grep bash | wc -l |
| 20:37.07 | Bradipo | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:37.14 | goozbach | you should exit the correct way instead of just killing screen |
| 20:37.14 | lars-ut | wow |
| 20:37.15 | Bradipo | Looks like I have 22 bash shells open currently. |
| 20:37.17 | tensai | yeah, that's what happens. most of them appended to history, some didn't. |
| 20:37.22 | goozbach | eg exit exit exit |
| 20:37.24 | lars-ut | yup |
| 20:37.28 | goozbach | till screen is dead |
| 20:37.36 | goozbach | then your history is saved |
| 20:37.42 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 20:37.53 | Bradipo | Thanks, when I exist X I don't care what windows are open. |
| 20:38.01 | Bradipo | This isn't WIndows where you have to wait for everything to close. |
| 20:38.14 | goozbach | you screen sessions should still be running |
| 20:38.17 | Bradipo | They do. |
| 20:38.25 | goozbach | then just re-connect |
| 20:38.28 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 20:38.40 | Bradipo | I never just kill screen. |
| 20:38.45 | Bradipo | Unless the system is locked up or something. |
| 20:38.49 | Bradipo | Which doesn't happen often. |
| 20:39.18 | lars-ut | so typing exit is the workaround? What id you want to reattach the screen? Will the histories persist until you finally type exit to end & append them? |
| 20:39.26 | Bradipo | lars-ut: You can also use ctrl-d |
| 20:39.28 | Bradipo | Much quicker. |
| 20:39.36 | tensai | my wife often shuts down the computer because she doesn't realize I've left stuff running in screen |
| 20:39.37 | goozbach | then your history should sholuld append when you exit |
| 20:39.38 | Bradipo | Just hold down ctrl-d until screen is gone. |
| 20:39.52 | Bradipo | unless of course ctrl-d doesn't properly exit bash. |
| 20:40.05 | Bradipo | But, just to be scientific... |
| 20:40.07 | goozbach | each session stores it's history in memory |
| 20:40.11 | Bradipo | I'm going to test my theory. |
| 20:40.21 | lars-ut | too bad - I reall liked using screen -rd |
| 20:40.34 | Bradipo | lars-ut: You can use screen -dr. |
| 20:40.39 | Bradipo | That doesn't kill screen. |
| 20:40.41 | goozbach | when bash exits it appends to the history file |
| 20:41.09 | Bradipo | If you reattach, you don't lose any history because the bash shell is still running. |
| 20:41.14 | lars-ut | sweet! |
| 20:41.36 | lars-ut | too bad I can't force an append w/o ending screen |
| 20:41.49 | Bradipo | It isn't screen really. |
| 20:41.51 | Bradipo | Its ending bash. |
| 20:41.56 | lars-ut | yes |
| 20:42.00 | Bradipo | You have to end bash before bash will write to the history file. |
| 20:42.21 | tensai | ksh for solaris continually updates the history file as you run commands. kinda cool but also kind of confusing. |
| 20:42.42 | Bradipo | That would be cool... |
| 20:42.56 | lars-ut | yes it would |
| 20:43.02 | Bradipo | Having a command availble that you ran in another shell immediately after running it. |
| 20:43.17 | tensai | it was but when you hit the up arrow and commands from a different terminal come up it gets weird |
| 20:43.31 | lars-ut | I'd be fine with that. |
| 20:43.49 | tensai | to each his own. I prefer bash's method. |
| 20:44.14 | lars-ut | There must be a way to invoke the append before ending bash |
| 20:44.40 | Bradipo | There probably is. |
| 20:44.45 | Bradipo | The man page would have information about that. |
| 20:44.56 | Bradipo | Maybe if you send it a special signal it will write the history immediately. |
| 20:45.19 | lars-ut | cat something >> .bash_history ? |
| 20:45.47 | Jayce^ | cd .. |
| 20:45.50 | Jayce^ | erghhh |
| 20:46.03 | Bradipo | history >> .bash_history maybe? |
| 20:46.11 | lars-ut | hmm... |
| 20:46.21 | lars-ut | need to remove linenums |
| 20:46.34 | Bradipo | Oh yeah. |
| 20:46.39 | goozbach | there may be some signal you can send bash to have it write it's history file |
| 20:47.29 | tensai | I don't see any mention of a way in the man page. maybe I missed it |
| 20:48.12 | tensai | nm. it's history -a |
| 20:49.02 | tensai | history -n in another shell to read in new lines |
| 20:49.07 | Bradipo | There you go. |
| 20:49.52 | lars-ut | I'm not so sure |
| 20:50.06 | tensai | well, that's pretty cool. I'm sure I'll use that. I bet you could hack together a PROMPT_COMMAND to save the history after every command |
| 20:50.07 | Bradipo | history -a |
| 20:50.11 | Bradipo | ctrl-a d |
| 20:50.19 | Bradipo | Does that work? |
| 20:50.41 | Bradipo | Then history -n in the original shell. |
| 20:51.08 | Bradipo | Or you could logout and login... |
| 20:51.09 | tensai | Works For Me(tm) |
| 20:51.30 | Bradipo | Now, the question I have is. What happens if you exit before running history -n? |
| 20:51.37 | lars-ut | I typed '#screen 1' in my bash screen shell then 'history -n >> .bash_history' in that same shell |
| 20:51.54 | tensai | lars-ut: no, no, no. just 'history -n' |
| 20:52.12 | lars-ut | running history in a separate non-screen session does not show the command ^H^H ok |
| 20:52.24 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:52.24 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:52.24 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:52.24 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:52.48 | tensai | sorry about the weird formatting |
| 20:53.04 | lars-ut | brb |
| 20:54.22 | tensai | mmm, pudding |
| 21:01.33 | *** part/#utah dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@66.219.227.114) |
| 21:07.08 | lars-ut | tensai: I get it now - very nice. |
| 21:07.20 | lars-ut | domo arigato |
| 21:08.16 | lars-ut | s/tenai/tensai |
| 21:15.30 | lars-ut | http://www.quiznos.com/menu_subs.asp |
| 21:16.00 | lars-ut | Think I'll get that double-toasted. |
| 21:16.46 | xbmodder_ | hey all |
| 21:21.34 | *** join/#utah bradym (bradym@bradym.agsci.usu.edu) |
| 21:22.51 | bradym | i'm trying to setup postfix to accept mail from a barracuda mail scanner.. anyone know what i need to set to allow that? |
| 21:23.21 | mheath | xbmodder_, hello. |
| 21:23.58 | xbmodder_ | sup |
| 21:24.23 | mrpull | barracuda doesn't give you an implementation guide? |
| 21:25.05 | bradym | it's not my barracuda server.. it's one run by the university, and since i run a server on campus they agreed to scan stuff for my domain |
| 21:26.02 | tensai | bradym: is this a barracuda question or a postfix question? |
| 21:27.08 | bradym | postfix - the barracuda is setup to relay the mail to my server, but when it does it returns the error: Recipient address rejected: <webmaster@utah4h.org>: Relay access denied> |
| 21:28.12 | tensai | sorry, I'm no postfix guru. the gist of it is you need to tell postfix to allow mail from the barracuda's address to that domain. |
| 21:28.49 | tensai | is this a new postfix box or an existing one to which you're just adding barracuda filtering? |
| 21:29.00 | mrpull | bradym: and most likely to only permit email from the baracuda... |
| 21:29.25 | bradym | tensai: that sounds like what i need.. just haven't been able to figure out the config for it |
| 21:29.36 | bradym | it's a new box - just setup postfix this week |
| 21:30.06 | tensai | I think we have some postfixers in the house |
| 21:53.17 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 21:56.32 | mrpull | bradym: INAPE (i'm not a postfix expert), but try adding: |
| 21:56.51 | mrpull | the IP address of the baracuda to the mynetworks line in main.cf |
| 21:58.07 | mrpull | like: mynetworks = w.x.y.z/32, 127.0.0.0/8 |
| 22:03.58 | lars-ut | ~emulate gir |
| 22:03.58 | ibot | i need tacos! i need tacos or i'll explode. that happens to me sometimes. |
| 22:07.11 | jsmith | BG? Bogon Games? Business Genius? Ball Game? |
| 22:10.45 | lars-ut | Battlestar Galactica - is it not on tonight? |
| 22:12.47 | jsmith | TV, what's that? |
| 22:13.02 | jsmith | I know I just have a TV somewhere, I just haven't seen it in a while... |
| 22:13.05 | lars-ut | http://epguides.com/BattlestarGalactica/ |
| 22:13.06 | jsmith | s/just/must/ |
| 22:13.47 | lars-ut | I just dl the torrents - I don't like wasting 20 min watching commercials. |
| 22:37.27 | *** join/#utah decriptor (~decriptor@207.88.76.81.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:37.37 | decriptor | hey everyone |
| 22:37.51 | decriptor | isn't there a site that will send you a ton of spam to test your server |
| 22:37.52 | decriptor | ? |
| 22:39.49 | RyanE | yeah, all of them. :) |
| 22:42.09 | decriptor | ok let me rephrase that is there a site that provides you with a test to test your mail server |
| 22:44.10 | jsmith | I doubt it... |
| 22:44.19 | jsmith | Otherwise, you'd be able to unleash it on anyone else. |
| 22:46.32 | decriptor | didn't think about that ummmm..... |
| 22:46.58 | decriptor | well if anyone wants to sign me up for spam spamtest@spamtest.biz |
| 22:48.12 | *** join/#utah misterpull (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:48.21 | *** join/#utah luminerd (~luminerd@c-24-2-69-204.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:48.22 | luminerd | Hello |
| 22:48.31 | luminerd | who knows the best place to buy a computer in these parts? |
| 22:48.44 | luminerd | a server, that is |
| 22:49.15 | luminerd | preferably a local place |
| 22:49.22 | misterpull | why local? |
| 22:49.27 | misterpull | what if they go out of business? |
| 22:49.33 | misterpull | HP has local techs if needed |
| 22:49.38 | decriptor | pc club si usually really good |
| 22:49.47 | decriptor | that and they have over 60+ stores |
| 22:49.50 | decriptor | I think |
| 22:49.55 | decriptor | about that number anyways |
| 22:50.04 | decriptor | I found my spam site :) |
| 22:50.49 | luminerd | misterpull, it doesn't matter, we will have already purchased ;) |
| 22:51.04 | luminerd | decriptor, I see, are they in the yellow pages |
| 22:51.29 | decriptor | I think so |
| 22:51.39 | decriptor | they are near university mall pcclub.com |
| 22:51.50 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 22:51.58 | decriptor | I think the number is 434 8888 but I can't remember |
| 22:52.22 | luminerd | calling vista now, after I'll call them...thank you :D |
| 22:52.29 | misterpull | luminerd: support isn't important to you? |
| 22:52.48 | luminerd | misterpull, not extremely, no |
| 22:53.00 | misterpull | fair enough. what kind of server are you looking to buy? |
| 22:53.12 | luminerd | misterpull, but even so, local is better for support for us |
| 22:53.22 | luminerd | misterpull, a very good one ;) |
| 22:53.42 | misterpull | does pcclub have on site service? |
| 22:53.44 | luminerd | 4gb ram, dual opteron, 2x 200gb mirror |
| 22:53.59 | misterpull | will they bring you a drive within 4 hours in the middle of the nigh? |
| 22:54.15 | luminerd | misterpull, lol, HP won't |
| 22:54.26 | misterpull | they will for me. |
| 22:54.34 | misterpull | even Dell (who I dont recommend) does |
| 22:54.41 | luminerd | well, Vista forwarded me to someone who wasn't there, I hate it when people do that, screw you vista, you lost 3000 bucks!!! |
| 22:54.43 | *** join/#utah RyanE_ (~ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:54.52 | luminerd | misterpull, dude...you're nuts |
| 22:54.57 | luminerd | misterpull, it takes dell TONS of time |
| 22:54.57 | misterpull | i am nuts |
| 22:55.15 | luminerd | misterpull, Dell took about two weeks just to get out and fix a screen |
| 22:55.19 | luminerd | not 4 hours lol |
| 22:55.29 | misterpull | i'm sure you are aware that there is a difference between a computer and a server... right? :) |
| 22:55.53 | decriptor | pcclub does a lot of servers you can get just about anything from them |
| 22:56.02 | decriptor | they are really really good about getting you what you want |
| 22:56.07 | luminerd | A server is a computer ;) |
| 22:56.11 | luminerd | anyway |
| 22:56.13 | luminerd | I hate dell |
| 22:56.14 | luminerd | and hp |
| 22:56.17 | luminerd | and all that crud |
| 22:56.26 | misterpull | IBM's servers are very nice too |
| 22:56.35 | luminerd | IBM that's a dif. story :D |
| 22:57.38 | misterpull | to me a server is more than a computer... it must include good service.... just my two cents :) |
| 22:57.40 | *** join/#utah Vitamin-C (~sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 22:58.28 | luminerd | misterpull, yea a server to me is a super-powered computer...one I wish I had all to myself *pants* |
| 22:59.38 | misterpull | i'm just being argumentative |
| 22:59.41 | luminerd | DANG |
| 22:59.47 | luminerd | pcclub takes a week to order crud |
| 22:59.51 | luminerd | I need it tomorrow!! |
| 22:59.57 | levi | I've become bored with super-powered PCs. |
| 23:00.05 | luminerd | any others? |
| 23:00.22 | misterpull | what is the application for this box? is it a workstation? |
| 23:00.56 | luminerd | misterpull, a server |
| 23:01.07 | luminerd | misterpull, running 20-40 concurrent machines |
| 23:01.14 | luminerd | all of them will boot onto the server |
| 23:01.35 | levi | Running virtual machines? |
| 23:01.37 | misterpull | remote X? |
| 23:01.45 | misterpull | or xen/UML/etc? |
| 23:01.56 | luminerd | umm... |
| 23:02.05 | luminerd | It will run Xorg yes |
| 23:02.15 | misterpull | i'm intrigued. if 40 other machines rely on it, why isn't support important? |
| 23:03.05 | luminerd | misterpull, it is... |
| 23:03.17 | luminerd | misterpull, that's why we want a local company |
| 23:03.28 | luminerd | not some big ol' place that runs out of new york or la |
| 23:03.41 | misterpull | so you can drive it to their shop and drop it off? |
| 23:04.17 | luminerd | misterpull, I am looking for a local company. That is my preferance. |
| 23:04.26 | misterpull | real servers have support contracts where people come to your site and fix it. |
| 23:05.01 | luminerd | 'Support' is expensive. I want a $3000 machine, I can't afford something like that |
| 23:05.37 | luminerd | And local companies just come with support - not something you have to pay an extra $1000 for |
| 23:06.13 | misterpull | downtime is expensive too :) |
| 23:06.25 | luminerd | misterpull, yes, but the server won't go down. |
| 23:06.36 | misterpull | ok. right. ;) |
| 23:06.42 | luminerd | If the server goes down even for an hour, we're screwed. |
| 23:06.54 | luminerd | Thousands of dollars down the drain for that |
| 23:07.02 | luminerd | That is why the server will NOT go down. |
| 23:07.08 | luminerd | And I came here for one question |
| 23:07.16 | misterpull | are you spec'ing machines with dual/tripple power supplies? |
| 23:07.20 | luminerd | not to be given sarcastic comments |
| 23:07.41 | luminerd | misterpull, I don't care to explain my whole situation |
| 23:08.04 | misterpull | luminerd: good luck man. I hope the best for you. |
| 23:08.04 | luminerd | I had a question, just to ask what a good local computer provider is. |
| 23:08.16 | misterpull | go to Totally Awesome Computers |
| 23:08.20 | luminerd | lol |
| 23:08.40 | misterpull | seriously. their support is good. |
| 23:08.42 | luminerd | Totally Awesome sucks...great computers, great support, and yet they cost 2 or 3 times what they should. |
| 23:09.33 | luminerd | they quoted me at $800 for a computer that I found elsewhere for $250 |
| 23:09.58 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (~bastage@c-24-2-80-89.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:10.00 | misterpull | did you do a true apples/apples comparison? |
| 23:10.18 | misterpull | 3 years hardware support / lifetime software support on both machines? |
| 23:11.13 | luminerd | misterpull, 1 sec |
| 23:11.52 | luminerd | misterpull, no, they told me that was as low as they could go, and that they were sacrificing hardware support in order to do it. |
| 23:12.01 | luminerd | They gave me 90 days. The $250 machine is a year. |
| 23:12.03 | jsmith | Don't forget to make sure they answer their phones 24x7 |
| 23:12.22 | luminerd | jsmith, the $250 don't, they don't really need service |
| 23:12.24 | misterpull | OK. so that is the same machine in your eyes? |
| 23:12.42 | jsmith | luminerd: That's true... at $250, the machines are already disposable |
| 23:12.49 | luminerd | misterpull, no, actually the cheaper one was better |
| 23:13.11 | luminerd | jsmith, they will be running completely through a server, they don't need to be any good on their own |
| 23:13.35 | luminerd | misterpull, seriously, do you have a website or anything? |
| 23:13.44 | jsmith | misterpull: I also make my living keeping *thousands* of servers up and running... |
| 23:13.55 | misterpull | luminerd: I trust jsmith as well |
| 23:14.05 | luminerd | either of you cheap? XD |
| 23:14.16 | misterpull | not at all :) |
| 23:14.32 | jsmith | Not when it comes to servers. |
| 23:14.34 | luminerd | $100 an hour? |
| 23:14.49 | jsmith | Yeah, I'd do server work for that... |
| 23:14.53 | misterpull | 250/hour :) |
| 23:15.09 | luminerd | I wish I could make that much |
| 23:16.01 | luminerd | wow...I'm very disappointed. IBM forwards to a nonexistant number!!! |
| 23:16.27 | misterpull | 5000 for a server doesn't sound like so much any more eh? |
| 23:16.35 | luminerd | huh? |
| 23:16.48 | luminerd | jackass...calling me ma'am. |
| 23:17.09 | luminerd | misterpull, I can't afford 5000 lol...3000 is pretty much my budget |
| 23:17.31 | luminerd | the owner is very hard to convince into buying something he doesn't think he needs |
| 23:19.39 | luminerd | I'd personally drop $10,000 on the server :P |
| 23:19.55 | misterpull | Do a cost vs risk analysis |
| 23:20.13 | misterpull | if it really costs thousands to be down for minutes.... then you have a case to spend more money |
| 23:24.03 | luminerd | misterpull, no |
| 23:24.11 | luminerd | misterpull, because the other machines have backup drives |
| 23:24.17 | luminerd | they are essentially thin-clients |
| 23:24.30 | luminerd | but we had them put hard drives in |
| 23:24.38 | luminerd | that way if we need to we will boot off of them. |
| 23:25.51 | misterpull | luminerd: never mind. I dont understand. |
| 23:26.42 | luminerd | misterpull, there are 20 minimal-spec computers out there. |
| 23:26.51 | luminerd | misterpull, they won't be using their hard drives unless the server fails. |
| 23:27.02 | luminerd | they all boot off of the server's hard drive |
| 23:29.29 | jsmith | luminerd: Are you trying to buy thin-client-machines, or a new server? |
| 23:29.40 | luminerd | jsmith, a server |
| 23:29.58 | jsmith | luminerd: Then I wouldn't spend anything less than $5000 for the server. |
| 23:30.01 | luminerd | the other ones are already purchased |
| 23:30.04 | luminerd | jsmith, why is that? |
| 23:30.09 | jsmith | luminerd: And I'd make sure it has out-of-band managment. |
| 23:30.28 | jsmith | Because now it's 20x more problematic when a problem happens. |
| 23:30.31 | luminerd | jsmith, we will not be spending 5000 on it. |
| 23:30.36 | luminerd | That is not an option I was given |
| 23:31.21 | luminerd | You act as if it's my choice...it's not...I told you, if it were, I'd spend $10,000. |
| 23:31.57 | luminerd | If we cannot get a server for $3000, we will end up with 20 low-grade, low-end computers. |
| 23:32.33 | luminerd | But I think a $3000 server can handle simple programs...nothing more than firefox and a spreadsheet program on each |
| 23:34.19 | luminerd | jsmith, if you have anything I could possibly say to get the owner to let me spend more, by all means, say it :) |
| 23:34.31 | Bradipo | If you go with an IDE server, you can get one for $3000. |
| 23:35.14 | luminerd | what makes a server IDE? |
| 23:35.14 | jsmith | luminerd: How much money do the people on the thin-clients make per hour? |
| 23:35.56 | luminerd | jsmith, it is not set like that |
| 23:36.10 | jsmith | Then here's what I'd do. |
| 23:36.18 | luminerd | in an hour, with the whole floor down, loss would be roughly $5000 |
| 23:36.25 | jsmith | Call center? |
| 23:36.35 | luminerd | yes |
| 23:36.35 | Bradipo | You can get a server that is based on IDE technology for hard drives, as opposed to SCSI. |
| 23:36.42 | jsmith | Gee -- this is the story of my life. |
| 23:36.45 | luminerd | Bradipo, oh yes of course :) |
| 23:36.51 | jsmith | I was the IT manager for a lot of call centers :-) |
| 23:36.52 | luminerd | jsmith, not telemarketing though |
| 23:36.57 | luminerd | heh |
| 23:36.58 | jsmith | luminerd: Neither were mine. |
| 23:37.00 | Bradipo | A good 72 GB SCSI drive will run $500 where you can get 300GB IDE for $100. |
| 23:37.02 | luminerd | jsmith, oh ok heh |
| 23:37.14 | luminerd | Bradipo, yea, we deffinitely can't afford scsi |
| 23:37.15 | jsmith | luminerd: One hour of downtime will pay for the server. |
| 23:37.15 | Bradipo | The costs add up. |
| 23:37.23 | jsmith | luminerd: But I'd do it this way... |
| 23:37.37 | luminerd | jsmith, no not true... |
| 23:37.49 | jsmith | I'd make a proposal, stating that the *right* way to do things would be to spend $5000 on a server. |
| 23:37.52 | luminerd | jsmith, as I said, the clients can boot off of themselves if the server goes down. |
| 23:38.08 | Bradipo | So, what's the point of the server? |
| 23:38.10 | jsmith | luminerd: Yeah, but how are you going to keep the hard drives up to date? |
| 23:38.15 | luminerd | jsmith, what!!!? That's a surefire way to get myself fired |
| 23:38.22 | Bradipo | No its not. |
| 23:38.26 | Bradipo | Make a serious proposal. |
| 23:38.27 | jsmith | luminerd: I wasn't finished. |
| 23:38.27 | luminerd | jsmith, what do you mean up to date? |
| 23:38.33 | Bradipo | Then it is in their ball court. |
| 23:38.37 | Bradipo | If they reject it, you modify it. |
| 23:38.40 | jsmith | OK, let's back the truck up here... |
| 23:38.48 | luminerd | No, that's absurd, you don't tell someone you're right and they are wrong. Not when they have power over you. |
| 23:38.50 | jsmith | First, let's cover the proposal, and then talk specifics |
| 23:38.55 | luminerd | jsmith, by all means, finish |
| 23:38.58 | luminerd | ;) |
| 23:39.16 | luminerd | By the way, we need this server by TOMORROW!!! |
| 23:39.27 | Bradipo | Not going to happen. |
| 23:39.32 | Bradipo | Go get your 20 cheap PCs. |
| 23:39.40 | luminerd | Bradipo, it will happen. We have our pcs. |
| 23:39.43 | jsmith | In that same proposal, I'd say (because obviously they're not willing to shell out the cash), that you should get at $1000 server, but that you told them so. |
| 23:39.55 | jsmith | Trust me. |
| 23:40.15 | jsmith | First problem happens that causes downtime, and they'll come hunting you down. And then your backside is covered. |
| 23:40.15 | luminerd | Bradipo, I don't appreciate your negativity. It WILL happen! You don't understand me, do you? It WILL happen, not it might, not it should...it WILL |
| 23:40.46 | luminerd | jsmith, I only understood some of that... |
| 23:40.59 | jsmith | luminerd: OK, let me restate... |
| 23:42.14 | jsmith | luminerd: Make a proposal that says "I *strongly* recommend you shell out the cash for a server that is solid, has built-in redundancy, high parts availability, out-of-band management, etc. As a short-term stop-gap solution, we could get buy with a $1000 computer with no redundancy, but I don't think it's the right thing to do." |
| 23:42.26 | jsmith | luminerd: They'll come back and say "Get the $1000 computer anyway". |
| 23:43.00 | jsmith | luminerd: And when the first downtime problem happens, you can say "Gee -- I told you guys we should have bought the better server. Look how much money we just lost." |
| 23:43.05 | luminerd | 1 sec |
| 23:46.58 | luminerd | I hate chinese accents. |
| 23:47.12 | Maquis | luminerd: there's not too bad.... |
| 23:48.09 | Maquis | when you hear them, just remember the song: "i like chinese..." |
| 23:51.03 | luminerd | jsmith, 1 sec sry |
| 23:51.44 | luminerd | k |
| 23:52.05 | luminerd | sry |
| 23:55.56 | Maquis | ok... really stupid question that i'm having some trouble with |
| 23:56.16 | Maquis | i want to find all the files that have two different phrases somewhere in the file |
| 23:56.43 | Maquis | so, i'm doing grep -lri 'foo' to get all of the files... |
| 23:57.03 | Maquis | and im' trying to figure out how to pass that in as the list of files that grep should search... |
| 23:57.10 | Maquis | any ideas? |
| 23:57.41 | Maquis | i was going to try grep -lri 'foo' > grep 'bar', but that shouldn't work...[ |
| 23:57.58 | Maquis | right? |