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| 00:03.38 | Maquis | Hhhhh: just something for work |
| 00:03.43 | Maquis | and it's not working at all |
| 00:10.12 | sjansen | Maquis: When all else fails, cheat. |
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| 00:52.41 | Maquis | sjansen: friend has a problem with X/keyboard/mouse/everything not responding from computer, but can ssh in fine... |
| 00:52.47 | Maquis | doesn't want to kill X because things not saved |
| 00:52.54 | Maquis | any ideas? |
| 00:56.58 | vontrapp | synergy |
| 00:57.06 | Newsome | is the screensaver showing in ps ? |
| 00:57.28 | Maquis | Newsome: not that i can see |
| 00:58.00 | Maquis | he says that kwrite should be open, but it's not showing up in ps elfwww (or any other variation of ps that i can think of) |
| 00:58.17 | vontrapp | can you get to virtual terminals? |
| 00:58.35 | Maquis | vontrapp: if you mean ctrl-alt-f1, no |
| 00:58.44 | Maquis | caps-lock isn't even responding (making the light go on) |
| 00:59.28 | Newsome | any clues with dmesg? |
| 00:59.39 | vontrapp | what about with chvt 1 |
| 01:00.57 | Maquis | Newsome: yeah... but i don't know what it is |
| 01:01.01 | Maquis | intelfb: Framebuffer driver for Intel(R) 830M/845G/852GM/855GM/865G chipsets |
| 01:01.01 | Maquis | intelfb: Version 0.7.7, written by David Dawes <dawes@tungstengraphics.com> |
| 01:01.01 | Maquis | VFS: Busy inodes after unmount. Self-destruct in 5 seconds. Have a nice day... |
| 01:01.03 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.05 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.08 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.11 | Maquis | VM: killing process nmbd |
| 01:01.13 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.18 | Maquis | VM: killing process firefox-bin |
| 01:01.20 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.25 | Maquis | VM: killing process combine_buybox_ |
| 01:01.28 | Maquis | VFS: Busy inodes after unmount. Self-destruct in 5 seconds. Have a nice day... |
| 01:01.31 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.33 | Maquis | VM: killing process combine_buybox_ |
| 01:01.35 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.38 | Maquis | VM: killing process matlab |
| 01:01.41 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.43 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.45 | Maquis | __alloc_pages: 0-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0) |
| 01:01.48 | Newsome | aha |
| 01:01.48 | Maquis | VM: killing process X |
| 01:01.50 | Maquis | (sorry for the flood) |
| 01:02.04 | Maquis | Newsome: you want to expand on that? |
| 01:03.05 | sjansen | Newsome: OOM killer? |
| 01:03.08 | Newsome | looks like something leaked memory, or otherwise ran out |
| 01:03.18 | Newsome | pretty close to the OOM killer |
| 01:03.26 | Maquis | OOM killer? |
| 01:03.35 | Maquis | he says "it's perl... perl doesn't leak" |
| 01:03.43 | Newsome | OOM = Out Of Memory |
| 01:04.00 | sjansen | Maquis: it may not leak, but it can still snarf up memory if you didn't set a ulimit |
| 01:04.04 | Newsome | killed nmbd, firefox, matlab, etc |
| 01:04.10 | Newsome | X |
| 01:04.37 | Maquis | sjansen: so, if he sets a ulimit, it shouldn't happen again? |
| 01:04.44 | Newsome | as far as I know, the only way to recover from that is to reboot |
| 01:04.54 | Newsome | what's the kernel version? |
| 01:05.02 | Maquis | Newsome: something old and 2.4 |
| 01:05.19 | sjansen | I don't think OOM killer was until 2.6 |
| 01:05.44 | sjansen | At any rate, the box is unhappy. There's little chance of rescuing the unsaved work. |
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| 01:06.25 | Newsome | definitely not OOM itself, but since it can't allocate 0-order memory, it sounds like it's pretty hosed |
| 01:07.39 | Newsome | any processes still running that you recognize, and that he'd like to try saving? |
| 01:08.00 | sjansen | Maquis: careful use of ulimit could help prevent it |
| 01:08.22 | sjansen | But it'd be best if you knew what the hog was. |
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| 01:25.36 | graphyx | I might be a coward... but I am too afraid to really find out for sure.. |
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| 01:51.37 | tyce | anyone get anything worth talking about at the surplus sale today? |
| 01:53.08 | graphyx | The scary thing is this. I got my CS degree at BYU and I have only gone to like 2 surplus sales... |
| 01:56.02 | tyce | I wouldn't say I go as much as I get dissappointed by them every month |
| 01:56.10 | tyce | :( |
| 01:57.31 | graphyx | Well there was that one week they put out 1.0 Ghz machines for $20. |
| 01:57.35 | graphyx | Turns out it was a mistake.. |
| 01:57.38 | graphyx | but once sold what are they going to do? |
| 01:57.57 | tyce | true |
| 01:58.09 | tyce | They've had some pretty decent macs the past couple times |
| 01:58.33 | tyce | but you have to be employeed by byu to hve a chance at snagging one |
| 01:59.08 | graphyx | or have employee friends... |
| 02:03.06 | sjansen | back in the day they had good stuff |
| 02:03.35 | graphyx | You would know.. |
| 02:03.37 | graphyx | ;) |
| 02:03.44 | sjansen | more than four years ago when they were surplusing old vaxen, SGI, and NeXT boxen |
| 02:03.51 | graphyx | yeah.. |
| 02:03.58 | sjansen | ~lart graphyx |
| 02:04.00 | graphyx | get some exotic stuff that they just didn't know what do to. |
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| 02:10.30 | graphyx | But I rolled an 18!!! I can't die now!! That's no far DM!!! |
| 02:11.50 | graphyx | I almost had the ultimate 3 handles sword of dooming death of pain +6.43e29. |
| 02:46.53 | graphyx | Anyone alive here? |
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| 02:52.37 | indessed | Anyone know an easy way to completely duplicate all postgres files (all databases, users, permissions, etc.) to another computer with a fresh installation of postgresql? |
| 02:52.55 | graphyx | is there no database dump? |
| 02:53.04 | graphyx | Or could you just set up replication? |
| 02:53.47 | indessed | I've used the database dump method before, but it doesn't copy users, permissions, etc (afaik) |
| 02:54.09 | indessed | and I've never done postgres replication before, but if it's easy I could try it. |
| 02:54.12 | graphyx | I am more used to mysql and it will dump those db's as well if you ask it to get them all. |
| 02:54.23 | indessed | yeah, mysql keeps all permissions and stuff in dbs, |
| 02:54.37 | indessed | so it's as simple as mysqldump --all-databases, |
| 02:54.45 | indessed | copy the file across systems, cat file | mysql |
| 02:55.17 | graphyx | yeah |
| 02:55.22 | graphyx | or rather mysql < file.txt |
| 02:55.23 | indessed | but unfortunately postgres keeps user information and passwords and so forth outside of the databases |
| 02:56.04 | indessed | yeah, I usually do "cat file | prog" rather than "prog < file" because I usually do something more like |
| 02:56.38 | indessed | step 1: "cat file | someotherprog", ok, works, step 2: "cat file | prog", |
| 02:57.06 | indessed | or step 1: "someotherthingprog | prog", good, step 2: "cat file | prog". |
| 02:57.11 | indessed | basically identical anyway :-) |
| 02:57.26 | indessed | So, hm, where are all the postgres gurus? There has to be a simple way to do this. |
| 02:58.02 | graphyx | have you tried #postgres? |
| 02:58.12 | indessed | hm, good idea. |
| 02:58.18 | indessed | /me hops over to #postgres |
| 02:58.41 | indessed | hm. empty room? |
| 02:58.48 | indessed | oh, probably #postgresql |
| 02:58.51 | graphyx | could it be prosgresql? |
| 02:58.59 | indessed | bingo |
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| 03:20.50 | Maquis | Newsome: sjansen thanks for the help on steve's box... sorry i didn't reply again... |
| 03:21.50 | Newsome | hope you were able to finally get things working again |
| 03:22.56 | Maquis | i told him to reboot |
| 03:23.08 | Newsome | good plan |
| 03:23.13 | Maquis | then i met with some people on my team regarding a bug i had pounded my head against... |
| 03:23.23 | Maquis | and then i went home after 10.5 hours at work... |
| 03:23.37 | Maquis | Newsome: i was trying to figure out what could've caused it... |
| 03:23.54 | Maquis | the only thing that appeared to be running (besides zsh, xterm, etc) was matlab... |
| 03:24.10 | Maquis | and he had been running 8 or 9 instances of matlab simultaneously... |
| 03:24.20 | Maquis | could that have been the problem? |
| 03:24.24 | sjansen | probably |
| 03:24.31 | Maquis | mmmk... |
| 03:24.33 | sjansen | wouldn't surprise me to find out it's a memory hog |
| 03:24.38 | Maquis | yeah |
| 03:25.21 | bigdog_ut | what is the package that contains dig and host commands? |
| 03:25.33 | sjansen | bind-utils, usually |
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| 03:25.50 | bigdog_ut | man...i always forget taht |
| 03:26.50 | bigdog_ut | sjansen thanks |
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| 04:16.28 | hans | away |
| 04:27.27 | Mecworks | close by |
| 04:27.38 | Mecworks | over |
| 04:27.40 | Mecworks | under |
| 04:27.46 | Mecworks | quiet |
| 04:27.51 | Mecworks | loud |
| 04:32.48 | Mecworks | So, anyone want to present at SLLUG next week? Still looking for a presenter.... |
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| 04:46.46 | Maquis | Mecworks: i'm in washington... does that count? |
| 04:59.22 | neybar | you can poke goozbach, he just gave a really good presentation on XEN |
| 05:01.39 | goozbach | neybar: they've already tried |
| 05:01.45 | goozbach | I'm gonna be in CT |
| 05:01.54 | goozbach | or I'd do it in a heartbeat |
| 05:02.35 | dataw0lf- | goozbach: how's the stability in Xen? I know the performance is jawesome. |
| 05:03.15 | goozbach | it's pretty stable |
| 05:03.48 | goozbach | I've got multiple-months of uptime and counting |
| 05:04.10 | dataw0lf- | Nice, what are you doing on it? and root distro? |
| 05:04.27 | goozbach | if you have more than one phyiscal machine you can have 100%uptime with the guest migration stuff |
| 05:04.47 | goozbach | virtual server hosting, and RHEL4 |
| 05:05.08 | goozbach | tomcat-- |
| 05:05.11 | goozbach | java-- |
| 05:05.18 | mrpull | goozbach: what about upgrading kernels & apps? With MS clusters, I really can do a 100% uptime upgrade |
| 05:05.20 | goozbach | mod_jk2-- |
| 05:05.40 | mrpull | when you upgrade the DOM-U kernel, you still have to reboot it... right? |
| 05:05.55 | goozbach | the dom-U yup |
| 05:06.21 | goozbach | you should be able to migrate a guest to another dom-0 and upgrade the the dom-0 under it |
| 05:06.43 | goozbach | but you're gonna reboot anyway if you upgrade a kernel |
| 05:06.53 | dataw0lf- | goozbach: awesome, I know caker @ Linode just waiting for PAE support and he's migrating. |
| 05:07.29 | goozbach | as a matter of fact, a kernel upgrade is the only software upgrade that should require a reboot |
| 05:07.53 | goozbach | soon however, the kernel will be able to exec it'self |
| 05:07.59 | goozbach | er itself |
| 05:08.04 | dataw0lf- | nice. |
| 05:08.09 | mrpull | soon? I remember hearing that 5 years ago :) |
| 05:08.15 | dataw0lf- | hehe. |
| 05:08.20 | goozbach | that's kernel-specific, not XEN specific |
| 05:08.28 | mrpull | true |
| 05:08.34 | goozbach | ~dict PAE |
| 05:08.44 | dataw0lf- | yeah, just thinking about applications specific to Xen. |
| 05:09.03 | goozbach | in layman's terms, what's PAE? |
| 05:09.42 | mrpull | allows 32 bit computers to use 64 bit address space |
| 05:09.48 | mrpull | with some hackery |
| 05:09.55 | mheath | Everything except for the microkernel can be reloaded without rebooting on GNU |
| 05:10.08 | mrpull | whoops... not 64 bits... 64 GB |
| 05:10.21 | dataw0lf- | 36 bits of le bus |
| 05:10.22 | goozbach | mrpull: I was gonna say... |
| 05:10.23 | dataw0lf- | ;) |
| 05:10.37 | dataw0lf- | extends it from 4 to up to 64 gb |
| 05:10.46 | goozbach | I see |
| 05:10.48 | mrpull | but still without the hackery you are stuck at 4GB |
| 05:11.01 | dataw0lf- | yeah. |
| 05:11.09 | dataw0lf- | one sec, I'll give yah a link. |
| 05:11.10 | goozbach | makes sense |
| 05:11.18 | dataw0lf- | http://kerneltrap.org/node/2450 |
| 05:12.21 | mrpull | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:15.11 | mrpull | mheath: do you actually use hurd? |
| 05:15.29 | mheath | mrpull: I have in the past, yes |
| 05:15.52 | mheath | Right now all of my limited number of computers is going to a distributed computing project, though (a cluster) |
| 05:16.26 | mrpull | what cluster platform? |
| 05:16.27 | mheath | Hurd has the basis required to make a very good distributed operating system, but unfortunately it doesn't fully support that yet |
| 05:16.36 | mheath | mrpull: Amoeba |
| 05:17.01 | mrpull | cool. i've played with a couple clustering tools, but I haven't heard of Amoeba |
| 05:17.22 | mrpull | I like HA clusters, I dont have any need for numbercrunchers |
| 05:17.25 | mheath | mrpull: It was designed by, among other people, Andrew Tannenbaum :) |
| 05:17.51 | mheath | Its not actively maintained, though |
| 05:18.17 | mheath | died off back in '99. I'm using a slightly-more-recent version that a third party worked on |
| 05:18.29 | mheath | I'm looking into Plan 9, too |
| 05:18.39 | mrpull | yikes |
| 05:19.04 | mheath | Theres one big thing I like about Amoeba that Plan 9 doesn't have, though |
| 05:19.38 | mheath | I have one Sun ultrasparc computer |
| 05:19.51 | mheath | Say I stick that one ultrasparc in the Amoeba processor pool |
| 05:20.33 | mheath | All my terminals, and anywhere on the Amoeba network, can now natively run ultrasparc software |
| 05:22.04 | mrpull | natively run? or have transparent access to the apps running on the sparc box? |
| 05:23.06 | mheath | Well, of course the latter |
| 05:23.35 | mheath | Thats what I love about distributed operating systems |
| 05:23.46 | mheath | Everything compromises a whole |
| 05:24.00 | mheath | ITs like your body...one computers your stomach, ones your hand, etc.. |
| 05:24.24 | mheath | linux's clustering support (if you can call it that) on the other hand is like a bunch of bodies communicating |
| 05:25.34 | goozbach | dammit, I really don't want to do this chapter right now |
| 05:27.39 | mheath | goozbach, when I finally get everything set up, I'll let you have a shell accoun |
| 05:28.04 | mheath | I'm thinking I might leave the Sun box out (I've always wanted to play with Sol..) and run Plan 9 |
| 05:28.57 | mrpull | where do you get plan9? isn't it commercial? |
| 05:29.54 | mrpull | NM. i asked before I googled. |
| 05:38.14 | goozbach | wikipedia has a good article on it |
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| 06:02.24 | goozbach | frell, I stumbled onto a chapter of 'The Art of UNIX Programming' and have read from there to the end |
| 06:02.34 | goozbach | so much for getting out of here by midnight |
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| 15:33.05 | levi | Morning. |
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| 15:58.27 | graphyx | morning levi |
| 15:58.35 | levi | Ahh, life! |
| 15:58.45 | levi | How's it going? |
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| 16:06.29 | linuxalien | morning |
| 16:25.16 | goozbach | morning |
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| 16:50.01 | levi | Insightful blog entry on absolutism in developers: http://www.pyrasun.com/mike/mt/archives/2005/07/13/21.45.29/index.html |
| 16:50.23 | vontrapp | AAARRGHHHH |
| 16:50.33 | vontrapp | ~lart ubuntu size mismatches |
| 16:51.24 | shadoi | vontrapp: size mismatches? |
| 16:52.11 | vontrapp | apt-get downloads packages, then all to frequently complains about a size mismatch on one or more package and fails |
| 16:52.15 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, getting them too |
| 16:52.29 | shadoi | vontrapp: any packet loss on your interface? |
| 16:52.39 | shadoi | oh.. ew |
| 16:52.47 | vontrapp | Jayce^: shouldn't be |
| 16:53.01 | shadoi | are you guys on the same network by any chance? |
| 16:53.04 | vontrapp | i can install the packages just fine |
| 16:53.10 | vontrapp | from the partial dir |
| 16:53.14 | vontrapp | manually with dpkg |
| 16:53.26 | vontrapp | probably not the best thing to be doing |
| 16:56.40 | vontrapp | i really don't think it's packet loss, as most packages consistently succeed and certain packages consistently fail |
| 16:58.06 | vontrapp | Jayce^: do you have other sources besides ubunty? |
| 16:58.10 | vontrapp | *ubuntu |
| 17:06.47 | Newsome | Woohoo, less than 7 hours left! |
| 17:07.03 | RyanE | Newsome: 7 hours until what? |
| 17:07.28 | vontrapp | Harry Potter? |
| 17:07.28 | Newsome | new Stargate seasons! |
| 17:08.05 | Newsome | nah, the Harry Potter book is in Orem, but UPS won't deliver it until tomorrow morning |
| 17:08.44 | RyanE | aha. |
| 17:09.26 | RyanE | my kids are excited, I can wait. I don't seem to go for the 'have to have/see/do it on the first day' mania for anything. I guess I'm officially old. |
| 17:11.35 | levi | Uh oh, Bob Moog was diagnosed with brain cancer. |
| 17:18.14 | vontrapp | it's supposed to work |
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| 17:50.59 | vontrapp | hmmm, firefox seems to have developed a talent for killing synergyc |
| 17:51.39 | vontrapp | unconfirmed, but it has died thriece to day, and iirc each time firefox had focus |
| 17:51.49 | vontrapp | s/thierce/thrice/ |
| 17:59.51 | vontrapp | ~lart wendy's for raising price on fries |
| 18:01.03 | vontrapp | you don't get lots of fries anymore with "biggie size"... you have to pay even more _after_ biggie sizing to get teh "great biggie" fries |
| 18:01.26 | vontrapp | totally lame |
| 18:01.31 | vontrapp | fries are my favorite part |
| 18:02.40 | tensai | vontrapp: try a side of cauliflower instead |
| 18:04.55 | levi | You know, it's kind of sad that I get emacs keybindings in OS X Mail, but not in Evolution. |
| 18:05.31 | levi | vontrapp: Fries are EVIL and they will KILL you, so they are doing you a tremendous favor by not giving you very many!!1 |
| 18:09.56 | vontrapp | ~eat fries |
| 18:09.56 | ibot | ACTION eats fries and falls over dead |
| 18:10.03 | vontrapp | levi: guess you're right |
| 18:12.27 | vontrapp | that's the fourth spam this week with "Dear Home0wner" |
| 18:12.50 | vontrapp | right, right, listen to /me complain when he gets four spams |
| 18:13.00 | vontrapp | well it's more than i'm used to |
| 18:15.39 | RyanE | better to go to Crown Burger anyway. |
| 18:15.57 | RyanE | Then you get a Gyro and lots of fries. Sure to kill quicker. |
| 18:16.00 | vontrapp | i was about to go to supreme burger |
| 18:16.04 | vontrapp | where's Crown Burger? |
| 18:17.06 | RyanE | The burger place by Raintree *was* Crown burger, but I haven't been there in a long time. There's one a couple blocks west of Temple Square. |
| 18:19.04 | vontrapp | well hey, that's what is now supreme burger |
| 18:19.15 | vontrapp | what are the chances |
| 18:22.02 | goozbach | Apolo Burger is better |
| 18:23.20 | RyanE | they're all about the same, all good. |
| 18:23.31 | RyanE | all greek |
| 18:25.18 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 18:39.28 | *** join/#utah osynic (~synic@synic.student.supporter.pdpc) |
| 18:41.54 | *** join/#utah greygnome (~greygnome@c-67-186-198-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:44.09 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:44.12 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:44.44 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:50.58 | levi | Mmmm, Crown Burger. |
| 18:51.26 | levi | I used to go to the one near Temple Square all the time with my family. I'd get a Crown Burger and a big Orange Bang. Mmmmm. |
| 18:55.17 | bucky | that's what Lance Armstrong eats before the mountain section |
| 18:58.20 | levi | Heh. |
| 19:02.14 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:02.27 | *** join/#utah greygnome (~greygnome@c-67-186-198-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:04.05 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:04.51 | jebar | I've watched this site for the last two weeks |
| 19:04.57 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.05 | jebar | new to linux and the community |
| 19:05.15 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.18 | jebar | never used IRC |
| 19:05.24 | jebar | you can blame Hans |
| 19:05.30 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.46 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:05.51 | jebar | just started working with him |
| 19:06.15 | jebar | been a geek most of my life |
| 19:06.22 | jebar | mostly introverted |
| 19:06.24 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:06.32 | bucky | jebar, are you related to "the" Barlows? |
| 19:06.54 | jebar | don't like alot of IM but it beats the phone! |
| 19:07.00 | jebar | that's me |
| 19:07.10 | jebar | which barlow's do you know |
| 19:07.18 | bucky | the polygamist ones |
| 19:07.33 | jebar | yes and no |
| 19:07.41 | jebar | want the long or short version |
| 19:07.44 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:07.48 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:08.22 | jebar | second cousin to the sheriff of colorado city |
| 19:08.32 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:08.37 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:08.45 | jebar | would not be here if my great grandfather was not a plig |
| 19:09.00 | jebar | haven't bother to trace it |
| 19:09.01 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:09.03 | levi | joshc: There are some channels that I lurk in because I learn from the discussion going on, but don't have a lot to contribute to it. |
| 19:09.20 | jebar | got the info from an uncle |
| 19:09.28 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:09.50 | jebar | I think they like to live in shadows |
| 19:09.51 | levi | No... probably there are a lot that just have an irc client open somewhere, forgotten about. |
| 19:10.17 | bucky | almost all of the people in this channel participate in open discussion |
| 19:10.28 | levi | BTW, this is an interesting article on domain-specific languages: http://martinfowler.com/articles/languageWorkbench.html |
| 19:10.48 | bucky | there are about 25,000 users logged into freenode... maybe alot of them are lurkers |
| 19:12.10 | bucky | Lisp is probably the strongest example of expressing DSLs directly in the language itself.. |
| 19:12.30 | bucky | Symbolic processing is embedded into the name as well as practice of lispers. Doing this is helped by the facilities of lisp |
| 19:13.25 | levi | It's annoying that the author refers to Smalltalk in the past tense, when there are still profitable companies actively developing Smalltalk systems. |
| 19:18.09 | goozbach | I screen ~20 different channels |
| 19:18.25 | goozbach | I actively participate in about half of those |
| 19:18.31 | goozbach | just lurk and learn in the others |
| 19:19.09 | *** part/#utah levi (~levi@208.177.141.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:20.41 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:20.53 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:20.55 | *** part/#utah joshc (joshc@dsl092-197-123.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 19:21.02 | *** join/#utah levi (~levi@208.177.141.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:38.30 | *** join/#utah greygnome (~greygnome@c-67-186-198-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:43.20 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 19:47.51 | vontrapp | hmm, i'm pretty much logged in 24/7 |
| 19:48.03 | vontrapp | screen on my brothers server |
| 19:48.33 | levi | "Everything I Know about Programming": http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7383 |
| 19:48.42 | vontrapp | it's nice just to connect to the screen instead of logging in and joining channels and all that jazz |
| 19:48.50 | *** join/#utah hans (fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 19:49.07 | vontrapp | and you don't have to worry about coming in in the middle of a conversation and not know what's going on |
| 19:49.10 | vontrapp | isn't that right hans? |
| 19:49.12 | vontrapp | ;) |
| 19:49.26 | hans | I don't see a conversation. where's a conversation? |
| 19:49.43 | vontrapp | you're right, there isn't one |
| 19:49.47 | vontrapp | just me ranting |
| 19:50.04 | levi | hans: No conversation, but cool links from me. |
| 19:50.30 | hans | that's why I came back. for the cool links |
| 19:50.40 | hans | (I went to visit this test server they keep bragging about) |
| 19:50.40 | vontrapp | well too bad, you missed them |
| 19:51.12 | hans | there were some cool people over there, but no cool links |
| 19:51.13 | vontrapp | a new freenode server/ |
| 19:51.30 | vontrapp | s#/#?# |
| 19:51.40 | levi | hans: It's all about the links, man. |
| 19:51.49 | hans | s#?#!# |
| 19:52.14 | hans | Now if only I was 1337 enough to visit the links in links |
| 19:53.27 | vontrapp | It’s harder to read code than to write it. |
| 19:53.32 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (nobody@dsl092-015-136.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 19:53.46 | vontrapp | ~hug xbmodder_lappy |
| 19:53.46 | ibot | ACTION hugs xbmodder_lappy |
| 19:53.55 | hans | vontrapp: is it harder, or just not as fun? |
| 19:53.56 | xbmodder_lappy | thanks.. i think :-/ |
| 19:54.03 | vontrapp | quote from the link |
| 19:54.09 | vontrapp | joel spolsky quote |
| 19:54.09 | xbmodder_lappy | ~hello vontrapp |
| 19:54.22 | levi | hans: No, the 'links' web browser, when used in preference to readily available and high-quality graphical browsers, is a sign of brain damage. ;) Of course, so is 1337-speak. |
| 19:54.55 | hans | spolsky is past his prime. these days he just lays around playing in his sandbox and occasionally saying "hey yall, this isn't as cool as you think it is" |
| 19:55.08 | hans | I haven't seen anything insightful from him in months |
| 19:55.18 | vontrapp | yeah, this was an old quote |
| 19:56.47 | hans | levi: precisely. an empty lament |
| 19:57.09 | vontrapp | i liked the implications mentioned about "it's harder to read..." which is in the context of explaining why programmers always think code is a mess and needs rewriting |
| 19:59.16 | hans | what are the implications? |
| 20:00.26 | vontrapp | that programmers always think code is a mess and needs rewriting just because it's hard to read |
| 20:01.27 | hans | well it does |
| 20:01.36 | hans | if it's to be maintained, that is. |
| 20:01.59 | hans | whether it is objectively hard to read or not, what matters is that it is subjectively hard to read |
| 20:02.32 | levi | hans: The point is, the code it will be replaced with if the programmer does a rewrite will be just as hard to read. |
| 20:02.47 | hans | well, no point in rewriting if it's not going to be better, I agree. |
| 20:03.02 | hans | so the argument is all code is hard to read so you can't rewrite something better? |
| 20:03.08 | jakea | hans, what did you do to the UUG mail server!?!? |
| 20:03.25 | hans | UUG? I haven't done much of anything to it in like a year |
| 20:03.31 | levi | Programmers will think it needs a rewrite just because it's hard to read, when there may not be any significant design flaws at all. |
| 20:03.31 | jakea | ;) |
| 20:03.54 | vontrapp | quick poll: favorite blizzard flavor |
| 20:03.55 | jakea | something is afoot with it, I'm trying to figure out if it's the server or BYU playing with IP addresses |
| 20:04.03 | hans | this may be true sometimes, and I'm sure there are people who rewrite too often |
| 20:04.15 | jakea | Favorite Blizzard Flavor: Diablo II |
| 20:04.17 | hans | but I bet it's far more frequent that the code IS a mess. |
| 20:04.26 | vontrapp | jakea: haha |
| 20:04.31 | vontrapp | DQ Blizzard |
| 20:04.39 | levi | This is not to say that there's no code that's hard to read that needs a rewrite, just that there needs to be more analysis than 'hard to read'. And that means reading and understanding, even though it'll take more effort than throwing up your hands and saying, 'This is hard to read, so I'll rewrite it!' |
| 20:04.41 | hans | haven't had a blizzard in ages |
| 20:04.57 | hans | why does there need to be more analysis |
| 20:05.13 | hans | assuming a small enough piece of code, more analysis is more work |
| 20:05.19 | jakea | oh, the expansion pack.... Diablo II, Queen of Destruction... |
| 20:05.26 | hans | and you're gonna have a hard time justifying that. |
| 20:05.28 | hans | (iI know, already debugged) |
| 20:05.34 | levi | hans: Lots less work than rewriting, re-testing, etc! |
| 20:05.43 | hans | assuming it is, then you're right |
| 20:05.54 | hans | there's no doubt a continuum here |
| 20:06.00 | levi | Sure. |
| 20:06.29 | levi | And the little platitude is just an entry into a discussion on what that continuum is. |
| 20:06.30 | hans | people say functions should be small. well if a function is small and indecipherable, a rewrite (including testing) is going to be better (in the long run, if not the short) |
| 20:06.56 | hans | if it's only indecipherable because the programmer is lazy or unable to read code, well... |
| 20:07.26 | hans | obviously one needs to be self-aware of his ability and laziness levels |
| 20:07.50 | levi | Well, the point is that it's hard to read code in general, so you have to discern whether it's hard because of a flaw in the programming or hard because it's just a hard task. |
| 20:07.57 | hans | agreed |
| 20:08.20 | hans | and if you can't tell, you've got more problems. |
| 20:08.29 | levi | Yeah. |
| 20:08.44 | vontrapp | just keep in mind that you could be rewriting code and think it's that much better because it's easy to write code and know what your doing but it's still not going to be easy to read, probably not even by yourself in 6 months |
| 20:09.07 | levi | Cool, an etymology of the word 'Calculus': http://webalt.net/Calculus-2004/Various/MeaningOfCalculus.htm |
| 20:09.08 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 20:09.13 | sjansen | Rebates aren't a lie! |
| 20:09.20 | hans | are you sure? |
| 20:09.41 | goozbach | aparently not |
| 20:09.43 | vontrapp | ~rebate sjansen |
| 20:09.49 | sjansen | We just got a rebate from CompUSA and it only took 29 ... drum roll please ... months! |
| 20:09.50 | hans | sjansen: did your Debian rebate come in? |
| 20:09.58 | goozbach | I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it myself |
| 20:11.06 | levi | This is a cool GUI system (based on some CLIM (Common Lisp Interface Manager) principles) for the language Factor: http://jroller.com/page/slava/20050714 |
| 20:12.14 | hans | there's another interesting discussion seed from lilo |
| 20:12.32 | hans | We're testing new server code, and it's the code that will |
| 20:12.32 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:12.32 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:12.42 | hans | so, how does becoming a tester now vs in a few days help me? |
| 20:13.12 | hans | when your customers are your testers, what's the point of staging a test server? |
| 20:13.15 | levi | It helps the people that are lazy and don't go over there now, but not you. Are you feeling altruistic? |
| 20:13.26 | hans | I already went. no links |
| 20:13.45 | hans | so I wouldn't rant and therefore wouldn't place the load they're looking for on their test server |
| 20:13.57 | hans | bad tests |
| 20:14.08 | tensai | what are you talking about "no links". irc isn't html |
| 20:14.09 | levi | Oh well. |
| 20:14.32 | hans | tensai: I'm being facetious or funny or something (or not) |
| 20:14.44 | hans | no links => no levi, and most the rest of #utah |
| 20:14.54 | levi | tensai: He's mocking me and my links! |
| 20:15.07 | levi | tensai: hans is a cruel, cruel person. |
| 20:15.15 | levi | I think I'll go cry in a corner. |
| 20:15.18 | hans | now, if we all went over there and started a distro politics flamewar, that would be a test. |
| 20:16.21 | levi | tensai: If you have a url-aware irc client, it's got links just as much as a web page does. |
| 20:16.25 | hans | although #utah is still pretty miniscule in the big freenode picture |
| 20:16.47 | hans | except for the topic |
| 20:17.59 | tensai | well goozbach and I are doing our part |
| 20:18.17 | hans | so I learned the other day that you can (and sometimes need to) set forwarders in bind on a per-zone basis. Just now I realized this nugget can be very useful for my home setup |
| 20:18.45 | *** join/#utah Ryan1 (~rerickson@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 20:18.51 | tensai | hans: yes, I use that at work. or I did until I configured the remote to allow axfr today. |
| 20:19.34 | hans | what type do you make the zone stanza? |
| 20:20.52 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:20.52 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:20.52 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:21.28 | hans | what does forward only do? |
| 20:21.52 | hans | well I can guess what it does. let me rephrase |
| 20:21.57 | hans | what happens if you don't put it there |
| 20:22.14 | tensai | dunno |
| 20:23.16 | hans | fair enough. :) This is way cool. I once upon a time beat my head against the wall for an hour trying to figure out how to do something like this with no success |
| 20:28.11 | tensai | hans: maybe it means not to cache |
| 20:29.00 | tensai | if that's the case, I wish I hadn't used it |
| 20:31.24 | levi | This is evil: http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000143050582/ |
| 20:37.27 | hans | tensai: To improve the security of your BIND/DNS server you can stop it from even trying to contact an off-site server if their forwarder is down or doesn't respond. With the forward only option set in your named.conf file, the name server doesn't try to contact other servers to find out information if the forwarder doesn't give it an answer. |
| 20:37.32 | hans | </quote> |
| 20:37.37 | hans | so it is good |
| 20:38.04 | hans | unless you want the external answers as a backup |
| 20:44.39 | tensai | hans: good to know. I don't want it for one but do want it for the rest. |
| 20:51.52 | goozbach | if you do forward-only your server will first contact the forwardee |
| 20:52.11 | goozbach | if it doesn't get an answer it responds nxdomain to the client |
| 20:52.38 | hans | will it not cache? |
| 20:52.55 | goozbach | if you do forward-first your server will contact the forwardee and failing that it walks the tree starting from the root |
| 20:53.19 | goozbach | hans: all the forward stanzas deal with a caching nameserver |
| 20:53.36 | goozbach | well for the most part anyhow |
| 21:39.51 | Bradipo | goozbach: Are you sure it returns NXDOMAIN if it can't contact the forwardee? |
| 21:40.00 | Bradipo | Or does it return SERVFAIL or some other temporary error... |
| 21:40.23 | Bradipo | Not sure how it could answer NXDOMAIN without an authoritative answer from the actual NS. |
| 21:40.34 | goozbach | Bradipo: good point |
| 21:40.46 | goozbach | it returns an error |
| 21:57.48 | levi | vontrapp: What led you to this conviction? |
| 21:58.11 | vontrapp | oh i was already convicted, just strengthened is all |
| 21:58.35 | vontrapp | sifting through presentation/logic soup to find out what the logic is |
| 21:58.42 | levi | vontrapp: Yeah, but that would have been more awkward to phrase in my question. |
| 21:59.47 | goozbach | http://www.pbones.com/images/linkimages/20050708sue.gif |
| 21:59.51 | goozbach | work safe |
| 22:00.41 | levi | Heh.; |
| 22:01.04 | levi | Er, the ; was unintentional. |
| 22:01.28 | vontrapp | that's funny |
| 22:01.40 | vontrapp | how dare you inconvinience my deeplinking! |
| 22:02.54 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (~bastage@c-24-2-80-89.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:02.57 | tensai | that's hilarious |
| 22:03.48 | hans | hehe |
| 22:07.42 | vontrapp | if your taking someones pictures, you think you would at least copy them to your server |
| 22:16.35 | levi | vontrapp: But if you just link to them, you don't take the bandwidth hit! |
| 22:17.28 | levi | You don't have to pay a designer to create an image, and you don't have to pay the bandwidth bill to serve it, either. Where's the downside? Man, business cases don't get any more perfect! |
| 23:12.25 | Maquis | is there a way to have javascript decide if a form item exists? |
| 23:12.38 | Maquis | ie, if (exists(document.form.blah)){ |
| 23:12.42 | Maquis | do something} |
| 23:15.06 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@216-190-206-130.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 23:15.07 | levi | Try using getElementById |
| 23:16.14 | levi | (I don't know Javascript, I googled for 'javascript dom "element exists"') |
| 23:16.41 | Maquis | levi: i'll look into that... |
| 23:16.44 | levi | I'm reading a paper on concurrency in the E language. |
| 23:17.22 | levi | Maquis: getElementById should return null if it doesn't exist, so you could use it to check for existence. |
| 23:19.15 | Maquis | levi: cool... |
| 23:19.20 | Maquis | levi: there's an E now? |
| 23:19.26 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 23:19.27 | Maquis | how does it compare to C and D? |
| 23:19.34 | Maquis | ~lart sjansen |
| 23:19.46 | sjansen | Man, somone dropped napalamon fedora-devel-list |
| 23:20.15 | levi | Is napalamon a new Pokemon? |
| 23:21.01 | sjansen | Man, somone dropped napalam on fedora-devel-list |
| 23:21.02 | levi | Maquis: E is not very much like C or D at all. It's all about concurrency and security via the capability model. |
| 23:21.05 | sjansen | levi: happy? |
| 23:21.23 | levi | sjansen: No. You meant 'napalm', I believe. |
| 23:22.16 | sjansen | Man, somone dropped napalm on fedora-devel-list |
| 23:22.24 | sjansen | levi: :-P |
| 23:22.55 | levi | sjansen: That's better. |
| 23:23.23 | sjansen | ~napalm levi |
| 23:24.50 | levi | I kinda liked the image of a burning ball of a pocket-monster buzzing around a mailing list and setting things ablaze. |
| 23:26.32 | Maquis | sjansen: why do you say that? |
| 23:27.46 | sjansen | It's in the throws of a three day flame war consistently producing message every few minutes. |
| 23:29.29 | Maquis | sjansen: ah... kinda like plug gets every once in a while.. |
| 23:29.33 | Maquis | what's the flame-war on/ |
| 23:29.35 | Maquis | ? |
| 23:31.28 | levi | sjansen: I think you mean 'throes' |
| 23:32.13 | levi | Those homophones will get you every time... ;) |
| 23:35.18 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (~bastage@c-24-2-80-89.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:35.30 | levi | Maquis: E seems, from this small example I'm looking at, like Scheme with a Cish syntax. |
| 23:36.39 | levi | There are no classes, and objects are essentially just closures. |
| 23:41.20 | levi | Actually, it's probably closer to Erlang with Cish syntax. |
| 23:45.06 | sjansen | ~flame levi |
| 23:45.06 | ibot | sjansen sux0rz d00d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@@!!!!!!!11 |
| 23:45.33 | levi | Heh. |
| 23:45.37 | levi | sjansen: You can't win. |
