irclog2html for #utah on 20050705

00:15.41mheathMaquis: I basically have a choice between letting my brother down and doing something thats really important to me, and really beneficial to me
00:32.29Maquismheath: that sucks
00:41.44mheather,  *not letting my brother down
00:43.16Maquisright...  i got that part
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01:56.00leviGrr, stupid Java anonymous inner classes.  They really ought to be closures.
01:56.47Maquis~lart java
01:57.47mheathheh
01:57.51mheathI used to hate Java too
01:59.43levimheath: Obviously you became corrupted by it.
02:00.01mheathhaha, indeed
02:00.03mheathit owns me now :)
02:01.56leviSmalltalk is so much nicer of a language.  Alas, the marketing power of Sun...
02:01.56leviI'm trying to figure out how to close a dialog box from within an anonymous class that's an ActionListener.
02:02.09leviIf it were Smalltalk, I'd have all my lexical variables available here, and it would be obvious how to do it.
02:04.11tensaiI remember that working with inner and anonymous classes wasn't entirely obvious. but there's a way to do it.
02:04.11tensaiI don't remember what it is though
02:04.11tene~nuke java
02:04.12tene~jedi java
02:04.13ibotACTION plays jedi mind tricks on java
02:04.24Maquis~lart java
02:04.27Maquis~lart java struts
02:04.30Maquis~lart jsp
02:06.03leviSupposedly dispose() closes a dialog, but it's killing my whole program, which is not what I want.
02:06.58Maquislevi: but it is closing the dialog :)
02:07.13leviIn a very unhelpful manner!
02:07.22tensaiSystem.exit()?
02:07.24Maquisis java ever helpful?
02:07.42levitensai: No, I DON'T want to exit the program.
02:07.53leviI just want to close the silly dialog when I click on the button.
02:08.05leviAfter I perform some other action.
02:08.07tenethat would be too easy
02:08.28tensaiare you sure you're dispose()'ing the right object?
02:09.45leviI'm probably not, but due to lack of closure, I don't have access to the right object.
02:10.28Maquislevi: i'd suggest disposing ofthe right object rather than the left objectg
02:10.38leviI guess I'm going to have to subclass JDialog and define my button in the subclass.  Man, what a piece of crap!
02:11.07levimheath: You LIKE gui programming in this vomitous language?
02:11.20mheathWho said anything about GUI programming? :)
02:14.40tensaiI found it no more dislikeable than MFC, GTK or GTK--
02:14.40leviHeh.  I like C less than Java, and I expect GUI programming in it is worse.
02:14.40tenedereference "it"?
02:19.14leviIn C.
02:19.14teneexpect GUI programming in C is worse?
02:19.14leviI expect GUI programmin in
02:19.14leviC is worse.
02:19.14leviGah, can't type.
02:19.14tenedepends on the toolkit
02:19.14mheathEdje > * :)
02:19.14tene<3 edje
02:19.14tensaimy point is that in my limited exposure to GUI programming I haven't seen anything I really *liked*, but nothing that wasn't tolerable
02:19.14mheathtensai: Edje.
02:19.14levitensai: You have a high tolerance for crap, I guess.
02:19.14mheathLook at Edje.
02:19.14mheath:)
02:19.14tenemheath: give a url
02:19.14leviI would rather not program GUIs at all, so I probably won't.
02:19.14tensaiI might just have low expectations for GUIs in the first place
02:19.14mheathtene: http://www.google.com/
02:19.14tensaicmd line r0><0rz
02:19.14mheath:D
02:19.15leviI like the NeXTStep/Cocoa approach to making GUIs.  You build them with a GUI app and then you write code for things that are worth writing code for.
02:19.15tenethat's how edje is going to be once a graphic designer is built.
02:19.24leviThat's how Cocoa already is, so if I have a desire to make a gui app, that's what I'll use!
02:19.24tenethe interfaces communicate with the code via signals, so you can replace the entire interface.
02:24.44Maquistensai: ummm... thanks for clarifying...
02:24.44mheathYeah. Pluggable interfaces
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02:24.44mheathswapable is a better word, rather
02:24.44tenetensai: http://enlightenment.org/docs/edjebook.html
02:24.44sjansenC rulez, Java droolz!
02:24.44leviWhoa, sjansen.
02:24.44tene!Java rulez, for that matter
02:24.44leviHigher-order languages rule.
02:24.44sjansenA little birdy told me that C and Java were being compared.
02:24.44levierlang is cool.
02:24.45leviBut immutable data makes some things awkward.
02:25.15leviSML is good for people who want fast code.
02:25.31leviHaskell's lazy evaluation sometimes bites you, performance-wise.
02:27.48leviBut Haskell is probably worth learning, regardless.
02:30.26sjansenQ: How long does it take to learn Erlang?
02:30.26sjansenA: It depends.
02:30.54leviHeh.
02:31.00leviHow far into learning Erlang are you?
02:31.09sjansen15 minutes
02:31.19leviAhh.  What made you decide to learn it?
02:31.27sjansenboredom
02:31.35sjansen(that's also why I'm here)
02:34.46sjansenalso because I'm thinking about switching my jabber server to ejabberd
02:36.26leviAny particular reason?
02:36.26sjansenjabberd2 has always made me feel uncomfortable
02:36.26sjansenI was reading the feature set for ejabberd and it sounds cool
02:36.26sjansenmy jabberd2 doesn't handle much load, but I hear ejabberd is more reliable
02:37.17leviYay, making a new class for my dialog fixed things.  Now I can slog on through this mess.
02:40.06leviIf ejabberd were not more reliable, I would be surprised.
02:40.06leviFunctional programming tends to yield higher reliability, especially in the face of concurrency.
02:40.16sjansenheh
02:40.16sjansenQ: What does soft realtime mean?
02:40.16sjansenA:  Cynics will say "basically nothing".
02:44.25Maquissjansen: you can fix my system...  that would be a fun project...
02:44.55sjansennot something erlang is optimal for
02:45.04mheathMaquis: whats the problem?
02:45.18Maquismheath: gtkpod just isn't working in general...  for a number of reasons
02:45.34Maquisi've tried running it through sudo, and when i'm root... and i get different problems each way
02:48.27sjansenick
02:48.27sjansenQ: Why are string operations so slow?
02:48.27sjansenA: Strings are represented as linked lists, so each character takes 8 bytes of memory (on a typical machine) and access to the Nth element is O(N).
02:53.35levisjansen: Obviously strings were not something they optimized for. :)
02:54.26leviSeems like an odd way to do it, though.
03:02.19sjansenthey make a good argument for not catching errors but instead allowing a crash to occur
03:02.19sjansenhttp://www.erlang.org/ml-archive/erlang-questions/200303/msg00113.html
03:02.19sjansenlevi: obviously, though I do wonder how easy it was to right an efficient XMPP server in Erlang
03:02.19sjansenbet they're probably doing all the XML munging in C
03:03.00leviPossibly.  I don't know much about actual applications written in erlang.
03:03.36leviI was reading a blog of a guy who used it to implement the backend for a poker server, though.   Apparently it worked very well for that.
03:07.29leviSome sort of a simple network server, maybe?
03:07.38Maquis~lart sjansen
03:08.40sjansenyes, but of what sort?
03:08.58levitftp, maybe?
03:09.59mheathI didn't think tftp was too simple
03:10.38levihttp://www.erlang.org/course/exercises.html
03:10.53tensaimheath: "trivial" ftp after all
03:11.02levimheath: Well, compared to a lot of other network protocols...
03:12.38mheathtensai: thats because its used for trivial transfers because it uses UDP, has no security features, and is rather low level
03:12.56mheathTFTP is used mainly to provide the kernel image for booting diskless things
03:13.44leviYes indeed.
03:13.55leviWe wrote a tftp implementation, too.
03:14.57mheathbah, I really need to get unlazy and get my cluster setup
03:15.08mheathI'm just really disappointed I can't run Amoeba
03:15.56leviYou could play around with other concurrent/distributed systems, though.
03:16.22mheathLike what?
03:16.43mheathAnd don't you dare say Linux + OpenMosix
03:16.50leviWell, there's distributed Erlang.
03:17.11leviDo some research, I'm sure there are other things out there.
03:17.26sjansensomething Xen related would be cool
03:18.36leviThere's a new Scheme software package called Termite that implements Erlang-like features for Scheme.
03:19.25leviI'm disappointed that I can't run Genera, but I deal with it pretty well.
03:20.26mheathAmoeba would work nicely
03:20.32mheathonly doesnt support my NICs
03:21.24leviGenera only runs on old hardware, and costs lots of money.
03:22.03mheathMaybe Plan 9?
03:22.34mheathIt seems to not be too Unixish for the sake of not being Unixish, so I worry about compatability
03:23.04leviEr, I thought Plan 9 was taking the Unix philosophy to the next level.
03:24.42leviAnd, compatibility with what?
03:26.08sjansenI know, I'll writing a blog in Erlang!
03:26.28sjansenThe world doesn't have enough blogging programs yet.
03:28.20levisjansen: Hey, I'm writing one in Lisp. :)
03:28.41leviI don't intend to litter the world with the source for it, though.
03:29.56sjansenHmmm... I wonder how hard genetic programming would be to in Erlang. Perhaps I could "grow" blogging software.
03:30.36sjansenThe user would connect to a server and download a unique generation. Don't like it, try another!
03:30.57leviHeh.
03:31.06mheathhmm
03:31.07leviGo for it. :)
03:31.19leviGet Slashdotted, and something decent might come out of it.
03:31.37sjansenheh
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04:10.12leviYay, my java program is finished!
04:10.31Maquis~lart levi
04:10.47Maquis~nuke levi's java program
04:10.58Maquis~rm levi's java program
04:10.58ibotlevi's java program is an unperson
04:11.13Maquisibot: i knew that...  i wanted you to rm -rf it
04:19.08leviDoesn't do much good to notice him after he's left. :)
04:19.18leviMmm, this batch of ciabatta is even better than the last!
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06:53.14Hhhhhhello
06:53.23Hhhhhanybody else can't sleep?
06:56.47leviYo.
06:56.57leviI could probably sleep if I stopped web browsing.
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12:20.48xbmodder_gaimhey
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14:26.51hagnamore bread!!
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14:29.29Hhhhhhello
14:29.42Hhhhhhmm, quite a few people here today
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15:27.15leviGood morning.
15:29.30vontrappmornin
15:37.10*** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com)
15:37.17sjansenDebian is doomed.
15:37.33JoshH?
15:37.49sjansenYou heard it here first. I predict that inside of three years Debian will be as important as Slackware.
15:39.14JoshHeven if it is ill still use it, unless something better is out.  :)
15:39.18sjansen64bit support is still a mess and moving slowly. Security updates aren't happening. The latest stable update was extremely late, irrelevant when it arrived, and not as seamless as the legendary Debian upgrade process used to be.
15:40.03JoshHits not irrelevant for servers, most people dont run stable on desktops anyway.  and the upgrade was smooth as butter as long as people used aptitude instead of apt-get.
15:40.25sjansenDebian is over reaching. I predict that it has become too bureaucratic and proud to save itself.
15:40.29JoshHand 64bit support is still messy on almost everything.
15:42.00sjansenIn other news, it looks like RH is trying to corner the color blue.
15:42.47sjansenRH already has strong claim to the color Red. SUSE is _the_ name in Green. Now RH is firing back by trying to capture blue.
15:42.53JoshHi predict fedora will be irrelevant in 3 years, and rh and suse will only be used by companies that think they have to pay for everything.
15:43.05JoshHbecause everyone else will be using debian or ubuntu
15:44.01sjansenUbuntu and the related Debian-based distros may be Debian's only hope. When things finally become hopeless, they'll recreate Debian as a forum for coordination.
15:44.31JoshHi wouldnt place that entirely outside the realm of possibility, but i still doubt it.
15:44.45sjansenAs for Fedora, it still going through teething problems, but threatens to replace Debian as the most important community based distribution with a strong commitment to Free Software.
15:46.15JoshHuntil they start making it harder for people to listen to mp3's, and people realize how much better debian is for package management.
15:46.31JoshHmore and more people are realizing it all the time thanks to ubuntu.
15:46.42JoshHits replaced fedora as the official noob distro.
15:46.59sjansenDebian is hardly better for package management.
15:47.21sjansenaptitude is great, but at the core I think RPMs are superior
15:47.47sjansenDon't get me wrong, .deb has some great features that I wish RPM had, but my general experience with RPMs has been better.
15:48.03sjansenStarting with the fact that RPM is faster for most common operations.
15:48.04JoshHrpm itself as nice, but no rpm distro has done what debian has done.
15:48.17hagnarpm is stupid
15:48.35hagnaoops wrong window
15:48.38jsmithNo, people are stupid
15:48.49hagnajsmith: ok I agree
15:49.42sjansenAnd what has Debian done?
15:50.04hanssjansen: it's good to have you back.
15:50.06gthornockExcept by way of its offspring (Knoppix, Ubuntu, Mepis, etc), Debian is already irrelevant.  So is Fedora.
15:50.21sjansenNo Debian based distro has provided the enterprise level of support that RPM based distros have.
15:50.22JoshHcreated not only a good package manager, but also created a distro where you can install almost any open source software out there and have it basically be guaranteed to work, and work well with the rest of the system.
15:50.52sjansenGuarenteed? That sure hasn't been my experience with Debian.
15:50.59vontrappthat's what any rpm distro has yet to do
15:51.17JoshHwell, your experience with debian is definitely not the norm, thats been established here many times.  :)
15:51.21gthornockThat's what any Linux distro has yet to do.
15:51.35sjansenSo basically you're arguing the number of packages available. I'll give you that, but remind you that Fedora Extras is finally starting to take off.
15:51.58JoshHok, so debian isnt perfect, but its definitely closer to it than any other distro.  especially rpm distros.
15:52.21leviAhh, early morning distro wars. :)
15:52.24sjansenAs long as you don't want to run software written in the last three years, or recieve security updates.
15:52.48sjansenOr recieve enterprise level support.
15:52.48JoshHwell, the release cycle will be faster now.
15:53.02gthornock*nobody* has a distro where you can install "almost any open source software" and be sure that it will work.
15:53.06JoshHit wont take 3 years for etch to be out.
15:53.12sjansenAnd arguing in-house expertise doesn't count because under those terms even Gentoo is a reasonable solution.
15:53.42hagnagentoo is not reasonable?
15:54.06hagnaebuilds have got to be the easiest packages to write
15:54.17sjansengthornock: Yep. Package management is gradually becoming one of the most critical issues for further Linux growth. Personally, I don't think that either RPM or .deb will be able to solve it.
15:54.30Ryan1sjansen wanted a flame war, I guess this is it...
15:54.48JoshHwell, ive used fedora, and ive used debian, and the choice is clear to me, regardless of which distro is "more relevant".
15:54.49gthornockUnder the right set of circumstances, Gentoo can be reasonable.  I wouldn't use it on the desktop, but if you're running enough servers to justify having an in-house build server to handle all the compiles, then it works OK.
15:55.32Ryan1I loved package management and the community support under gentoo.  Ran well (and all the hardware) on my previous laptop.  In the end, I hated the compiles more.
15:55.40gthornocksjansen: Not even the BSD ports tree has completely solved the package management problem, although it does seem to do a better job of it than RPM or DEB.
15:55.48hagnaRyan1: you can do binary dists too
15:56.10hagnasjansen: and gentoo is pretty much the BSD ports tree
15:56.15JoshHid rather use freebsd than gentoo on any server
15:56.16Ryan1yeah, never had the time to figure it out.
15:56.19gthornockhagna: no, it's not.
15:56.20JoshHhagna: no, its not quite as good
15:56.39gthornockSimilar, perhaps, but not quite the same thing.
15:57.11sjansenhagna: I was a gentoo user for a year and a half. I'm quite familiar with it.
15:58.00sjansenGentoo is very much not a good solution. Every installation is unique. For software vendors, that's a nightmare scenario.
15:58.46gthornocksjansen: that's why I said, it's only reasonable if you're running enough systems to justify having your own build server.  That also results in a consistent build across all of your servers.
15:58.48vontrappyummy
15:59.18gthornockEven then, though, you're right that it doesn't play nicely with vendor support.
16:00.58etahhhhwell, don't know if you guys are looking for 'easy' solutions, but I recently put PCLinuxOS on a friend's desktop and I was impressed with how well it did everything he wanted and how available popular apps were
16:01.23etahhhhit use apt-rpm and has a pretty up-to-date repository
16:03.10etahhhhit was origianally based on mandrake, but has developed its own flavor
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16:07.46etahhhhif you want something more responsive, VidaLinux, which is a nicely automated gentoo stage-three install, uses emerge and has similar package selection
16:07.56sjansenetahhhh: Now put Oracle on it. Build a large mod_perl or J2EE app on it. Get support from Oracle. Tune its performance on a fourway system with 4G of RAM.
16:08.17JoshHi did put oracle 10g on debian recently, and it was not a pleasant experience.
16:08.32JoshHbut honestly i think the only reason to use rh or suse is for the enterprise apps, if you need them.
16:08.45etahhhhwell, I was just about to say they will be refreshing for the desktop scene, but won't get far in enterprise...
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16:09.57sjansenAlternatively, you are the tech support for a Physics department at a university. Interface with the existing Exchange server and get Mathematica working on every professors machine. Resolve support issues.
16:10.35tensaiI've put oracle on win2k, rh and debian. *none* of them were pleasant.
16:12.03etahhhhwhat brought those up was the use of apt-rpm; is that that best of both worlds?
16:12.16etahhhhI hadn't ever really used it before and it seemed really slick
16:13.12bigdog_uttensai, and solaris really sucks
16:14.06sjansenapt-rpm used to be a good solution
16:14.19sjansenyum is now better, although it'd be nice to have an equivalent of aptitude
16:14.42JoshHthe last time i tried fedora it was with fc1, and i used red carpet because yum sucked.
16:14.53JoshHbut apparently yum got better.
16:15.42etahhhhPCLOS used Synaptic; is that just an interface for apt-rpm?
16:16.41hagnaspeaking of package mngmnt what's the rpm for mac?
16:16.53hagnathe um best package manager
16:17.17hansfor mac proper?
16:18.04hagnanah
16:18.32hagnahans: btw, more bread!!!
16:19.20JoshHetahhhh: synaptic is a front end to apt, it works with either debs or rpms.
16:19.44hansI like both darwinports and fink for different reasons
16:19.54hansI find myself using darwinports more than fink
16:20.01hansneither has the wealth of packages that debian does, though
16:20.09hagnaor gentoo
16:20.11hansso I end up doing things from scratch too
16:20.24hansmore bread?
16:20.37hagnadilbert reference
16:20.39vontrapp~lart doing things from scratch
16:20.58hansah. haven't got there yet today. :)
16:21.06hansI've got since thursday to catch up
16:21.29hagnatoday's dilbert should bring you joy if you want a hot girl
16:21.49vontrapp~lart wildcard dns + domain search
16:22.29leviMy wife made ciabatta over the weekend.  It is good! :)
16:23.18hagnais that bread or something?
16:23.59leviYeah.
16:24.56hagnahey that reminds me of the interview on 60 minutes of the most beautiful woman in the world
16:25.05hagnathey went to a restraunt and she ordered everything on the menu
16:26.08hagnas/that/dilbert
16:33.25goozbachat least sjansen stuck around to see some of the converstation that he spurned.
16:35.18JoshHi think he was bored because his attempt at starting a plug flame war never really took off, so he tried it here.  :)
16:37.28hanshe's probably found himself actually starting to like Debian and is trying to fight it.
16:38.11leviHeh. :)
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17:27.11xbmodder_gaimgoozbach: w00t
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17:34.37tapH20guruquestion: need to run MS project: Vmware Workstation 5.0 or Win4LinPro?
17:34.50tapH20guruso far I'm leaning towards VMware
17:35.18tapH20guruthe demo was nice and clean on my Ubuntu desktop
17:35.34goozbachcongrats xbmodder_gaim
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17:39.16bonez39tapH20guru, I have run Win4Lin for the past 4 years now...it has worked well for me
17:39.35tapH20gurubonez39: use it for MS apps?
17:41.36bonez39tapH20guru, Primarily, I run a medical office product Lytec Medical...it's a btrieve based database..but I run IE and a few other MS apps....I have run MS Publisher with it.....runs fine....
17:41.40*** join/#utah joshc (joshc@dsl092-197-123.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
17:42.02tapH20guruthx for the info
17:42.03bonez39tapH20guru, I know win4lin is geared up now to run Win 2000 and xp as well......though I just run 98se...which works fine for my needs...
17:51.14Ryan1qemu works well as well.
17:51.32Ryan1of course, unless you run XP or W2k, you don't get kqemu acceleration
17:54.19mheathWINE is rapidly growing to the point where it should be able to run anything
17:56.33bonez39mheath, I'd love to find it could run other win apps that I need
17:57.11mheathI actually worked on a neat desktop integration tool for WINE, too
17:57.27mheathA Windows tollbar clone that would run on your GNOME/KDE/.... desktop
17:57.37mheathIt could merge in your desktop icons, too
18:08.37Ryan1The only thing I could get to run MS Streets and Trips was a full emulation, like QEMU or VMWare, but I got IE and several other apps to run under Wine...  now, IE under Linux, that's a perversion!
18:09.54Hhhhhaaah! FC4 is nice :)
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18:37.54goozbachwhat TLD is .dk?
18:38.24tensaidenmark?
18:38.42tensaihttp://www.iana.org/cctld/cctld-whois.htm
18:39.21goozbachtks
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19:18.09joshc<PROTECTED>
19:18.32mrpullnot too gross is a pretty good mark for taco bell :)
19:18.44mrpullthe things that look like a UFO?
19:18.51joshc<PROTECTED>
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19:46.59hansjoshc: they're a pretty good idea. My wife likes tostadas for the crunch, I hate them for the mess (and she will probably hate the mess too when the kid(s) get old enough to eat them)
19:52.29joshc<PROTECTED>
20:00.59mrpullthe crunch is just a repackaged doubledecker taco
20:01.06mrpullhardly innovative ;)
20:02.07colerawow
20:02.40coleraw00t! check out this site http://sxc.hu/ free stock photography!
20:02.59colerahir-rs
20:03.05coleraerhh hi-res
20:04.40leviThat's a dangerous-looking url.
20:06.00hansmrpull: I've never heard of a doubledecker taco. Although it doesn't surprise me that taco bell didn't come up with the idea, I at least thank them for introducing me to it.
20:06.14hansnot the point of actually going to taco bell, mind you, but I still thank them. :)
20:07.32mrpulldoubledecker == crunchy taco with a small flour taco glued on with some bean-like substance
20:07.52hansyou mean curved-like
20:08.01hansnot tostada style
20:08.06mrpullyup
20:08.11mrpullhttp://www.tacobell.com/menu/
20:08.20coleralevi: dangerous looking url? lol because it's .hu?
20:08.52levicolera: Say s-x-c out loud, too, and tell me what it sounds like.
20:09.21mrpullsource-exchange ?
20:09.49mrpullerrr stock exchange?
20:10.01leviNo.  Say the names of the letters.
20:10.03colerastock exchange
20:10.11coleralevi: yeah i got you
20:10.18colerabut it's not a pr0n site : )
20:10.20mrpulli'm with you.
20:10.30hansand speed it up sesame street-style
20:11.07mrpullssssss xxxxxxxx
20:11.15mrpulltwo headed monster style
20:11.35mrpullwhy don't we have the letters appear in front of us in real life
20:11.37mrpullthat'd be nice
20:11.49mrpullor fly out of our mouths
20:12.02coleraanyone here a debian user?
20:12.07joshc<PROTECTED>
20:12.52colerajoshc: xdm or whatever got installed by default what script loads the X stuff at boot so i can disable xdm
20:13.10joshc<PROTECTED>
20:13.13JoshHyou can apt-get remove xdm
20:13.14colerai wanna just boot into the console
20:13.51coleraJoshH: oh alright good idea, wonder if that will cripple something cause it will call xdm but it won;t be around to respond
20:14.02hansif you don't want to remove *dm you can do the sysv symbolic link thing
20:14.08colera?
20:14.09JoshHwell if you remove it, it will remove the script for it in /etc/init.d
20:14.40JoshHi like using rcconf to disable startup daemons, you can apt-get rcconf and uncheck xdm in there if you dont want to remove it
20:14.58colerais there going to be a july meeting for byu uug?
20:15.04coleraJoshH: thanks
20:15.12vontrappno, you can't apt-get remove xdm, because everything X depends on xdm, for reasons beyond logic
20:15.23joshc<PROTECTED>
20:15.27vontrappbut, you install a different manager and select it as the default display manager
20:15.32JoshHwell you can still safely remove it, it only removes metapackages
20:15.33vontrappthen xdm will simply not run
20:16.15vontrappcolera, do you not want X at all?
20:16.18coleravontrapp: what other managers are there? what if i don;t want a display manager and want to just boot into the console
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20:16.19xbmodder_lappyhey
20:16.20vontrappor just not to run at boot?
20:16.38coleravontrapp: no i want x i just want to startx when i feel like it
20:16.51mrpulljoshc... run firefox?  try "slang craptacular" in the address bar
20:16.59vontrapprighto, then just take out the link to xdm in the /etc/rc3.d/ directory
20:17.04hanscolera: you just want to uninstall xdm and gdm and kdm and wdm
20:17.18hansor alternatively play with the symlinks like vontrapp  said
20:17.25vontrappi'm telling you, if you uninstall xdm it will remove X
20:17.34vontrappi've tried
20:17.42mheathHmm. Anyone know if the 3COM 905 is compatible with the 3C590?
20:17.48mheathI know that in the Linux kernel, the two are grouped
20:18.06JoshHvontrapp: it says it will remove x-window-system, but thats just a metapackage.  i always remove xdm and its never caused a problem.
20:18.07mheathI'm just wondering if they're grouped because of 100% compatability, or for organization
20:18.14coleravontrapp: thanks that's exactly what i wanted to know as per my orignal question joshc: xdm or whatever got installed by default what script loads the X stuff at boot so
20:18.17colera<PROTECTED>
20:19.26vontrappcolera: slow computer?
20:19.42colerano, i just hate graphical logins
20:19.47coleradunno why
20:19.48coleralol
20:20.19vontrappthere is something to be said for a nice terminal login:
20:20.54colerawell actually how can i change the look of xdm maybe i wouldn't be so opposed if i could customize it
20:21.02JoshHuse gdm instead, it looks better
20:21.18colerais that like gnome version or something
20:21.33vontrappxdm is ugly, but if you're not happy unless it feels like a terminal login, i don't know what to tell you
20:21.52joshc<PROTECTED>
20:22.11vontrappjust talk about red hat
20:22.15joshc<PROTECTED>
20:22.39mrpulljoshc:  yeah... I should have guessed that... it does give a few good examples tho
20:23.06mrpulljoshc:  but seriously, you went to taco bell today and _still_ cant think of a reason to use craptacular in a sentence?
20:23.12joshc<PROTECTED>
20:23.18joshc<PROTECTED>
20:23.23colerahaha
20:23.37JoshHi dont like display managers because i dont like X automatically restarting after i log out, plus they make you login with your password again, plus i dont always want to use X when i first boot.
20:23.55JoshHgdm does look nice with a good theme though.
20:24.13mrpullJoshH:  have you considered changing to a runlevel that doesn't start X?
20:24.22vontrappnot in debian
20:24.27JoshHmrpull: i use debian, and i just disable xdm
20:24.32vontrappyou have to make a runlevel that doesn't start x
20:24.32JoshHor remove it
20:25.27joshc<PROTECTED>
20:25.31joshc<PROTECTED>
20:25.35coleraewww
20:25.40coleraj/k
20:25.41JoshHno workspaces
20:25.47JoshHor rolling up windows
20:25.49mrpull<PROTECTED>
20:25.56joshc<PROTECTED>
20:26.00JoshHor right click menu
20:26.31joshc<PROTECTED>
20:26.33vontrappoh, my bad, debian's default runlevel is 2, not 3, so /etc/rc2.d/ is the directory you want
20:26.36joshc<PROTECTED>
20:26.37JoshHlol
20:26.48coleravontrapp: okay thanks
20:27.07joshc<PROTECTED>
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20:27.26coleravontrapp: i am coming from gentoo and i don't remember there being more than on erun level
20:27.30JoshHi hate putty compared to a real terminal though.
20:27.37vontrappwhat about when you want to ssh -X ?
20:27.48joshc<PROTECTED>
20:28.09vontrappkicks and giggles
20:28.12mrpullvontrapp:  I use Reflection X on windows
20:28.15mrpullit works well
20:28.17JoshHhonestly there is nothing that i would ever do on a desktop or workstation that would make windows a better choice for me, all i have installed on my windows partition are patches and games.
20:28.27mrpullplus cygwin has a barebones XFree that works just fine
20:28.39JoshHi wouldnt mind playing some battlefield 2 right now actually.
20:29.07colerai can't play games, i get obsessed
20:29.44joshc<PROTECTED>
20:29.53joshc<PROTECTED>
20:29.59JoshHheh, i just use abiword
20:30.02JoshHand gnumeric
20:30.08joshc<PROTECTED>
20:30.16joshc<PROTECTED>
20:30.24JoshHi do actually have ms office on my windows partition too, just in case i ever need it, but i never do.
20:30.31JoshHi think ive used it like once in the last 4 years
20:30.50colerayeah what do you need all those spiffy things in a word processor for : P
20:30.51joshc<PROTECTED>
20:30.59joshc<PROTECTED>
20:31.59JoshHlinux is honestly what got me interested in computers in the first place, if i had to use windows all day, i wouldnt even be nearly as much of a geek as i am.
20:32.07mrpulloutlook/exchange is tough to beat too
20:32.33JoshHi hate using outlook actually.
20:32.35joshc<PROTECTED>
20:32.36JoshHits just so slow.
20:32.42joshc<PROTECTED>
20:32.46mrpull2003?
20:32.47coleramrpull: get a blue planner : P
20:32.47joshc<PROTECTED>
20:33.07joshc<PROTECTED>
20:33.17mrpullexchange2003 + outlook 2003 + pocketpc 2003 is a slick combo
20:33.38joshc<PROTECTED>
20:33.45joshc<PROTECTED>
20:33.47JoshHya
20:34.18JoshHbut im not important enough to need to be reminded about appointments.
20:34.23JoshHso thunderbird works great for me.
20:34.24mrpulli cant possibly replace my windows domain with FLOSS until there is a _real_ Exchange killer
20:34.28colerai assume debian runs each script in the rc2.d folder regardless of the name ?
20:34.33colerawhen booing level 2/
20:34.34colera?
20:35.17JoshHi cant picture a real exchange killer coming along unless novell or some company like that steps up to the plate and makes one.
20:35.28JoshHwhich really doesnt seem likely at all.
20:35.41vontrappthe ones that start with S are run when entering that runlevel, and the ones that start with K are run when leaving that runlevel
20:35.49joshc<PROTECTED>
20:35.53vontrappanything else is ignored
20:36.09joshc<PROTECTED>
20:36.39JoshHmaybe redhat or sun might do it, but if sun made it it probably wouldnt be free software
20:36.56joshc<PROTECTED>
20:37.05vontrappcolera: nevermind, i lied, the ones that start with K are run when entering that runlevel, but with the stop argument
20:37.09joshc<PROTECTED>
20:38.02vontrapp~cook dinosaurs
20:38.02ibotACTION throws dinosaurs in a big pan with veggies inside and cooks dinosaurs on 350 for an hour
20:38.24coleravontrapp: thanks
20:39.04joshc<PROTECTED>
20:39.11joshc<PROTECTED>
20:39.21mrpulluhhh... reboot to change runlevels?
20:39.24JoshHexchange is possibly the biggest reason that MS dominates the business desktop, along with office.  if some company did come out with an exchange killer, it would help them a lot.
20:39.39joshc<PROTECTED>
20:40.15lars-utKnoppix 4.0 DVD 4GB ISO from this link: http://tinyurl.com/dbglf
20:40.43lars-utI don't have an MD5 yet - knopper.net is waiting to release this on their mirrors until they've finished the corresponding CD version.
20:41.14lars-utLooks like some LinuxTag attendees were kind enough to share.
20:41.14joshc<PROTECTED>
20:41.24lars-utit's too young
20:41.27joshc<PROTECTED>
20:41.40JoshHgubug is like that too
20:41.40joshc<PROTECTED>
20:41.44lars-utI think new leadership will help
20:42.23joshc<PROTECTED>
20:42.54JoshHlol, that too
20:43.01mrpulldating service?  for men seeking men?
20:43.07joshc<PROTECTED>
20:43.15joshc<PROTECTED>
20:43.18JoshHid drive to provo for that
20:43.35joshc<PROTECTED>
20:43.53lars-utmaybe we could have a Bikini Cuts / UVLUG fundraiser
20:43.54joshc<PROTECTED>
20:44.12joshc<PROTECTED>
20:44.14mrpulljoshc:  that use linux?
20:44.24lars-utI was one of the original UVLUG founders - then I decided to leave the leadership/admin to others.
20:44.26joshc<PROTECTED>
20:44.42lars-ut~dict orthogonal
20:44.49JoshHwho cares if they use linux, all that matters is the gogo dancing
20:45.13joshc<PROTECTED>
20:45.13ibotokay, joshc
20:45.34lars-utibot you're useless
20:45.34ibotACTION starts crying and hides from lars-ut in the darkest corner of the room. :(
20:46.02joshc<PROTECTED>
20:46.08joshc<PROTECTED>
20:46.20JoshHthe morality police would probably tear the sign down.
20:46.30joshc<PROTECTED>
20:46.33lars-utI think there comes a time when the original folks that set up a LUG need to walk away.
20:46.38JoshHhavent you seen the movie footlose?
20:46.43JoshHthats totally utah county
20:46.44joshc<PROTECTED>
20:46.48JoshHerr footloose
20:46.52joshc<PROTECTED>
20:46.59joshc<PROTECTED>
20:47.10lars-uts/gogo/relevant topic
20:47.23joshc<PROTECTED>
20:47.27lars-utI knoe
20:47.33lars-uts/knoe/know
20:47.37joshc<PROTECTED>
20:47.54joshc<PROTECTED>
20:47.59lars-utlol
20:47.59joshc<PROTECTED>
20:48.03joshc<PROTECTED>
20:48.07vontrapphey, not a bad idea, get all the geeks to go to bikini cuts and uvlug, both parties win out, sounds like symbiosis to me
20:48.21JoshHthe bikini cuts employees would probably quit.
20:48.27mrpullrumor has it that "dan the laptop man" owns bikinni cuts
20:48.35vontrappoh no
20:48.49joshc<PROTECTED>
20:48.56joshc<PROTECTED>
20:49.01JoshHya, basically
20:49.01vontrappone that likes bikinis?
20:49.10bigdog_utjoshc, hopefully a nice lookin one
20:49.19vontrapplol
20:49.33joshc<PROTECTED>
20:49.42JoshHya, it got started here.
20:49.46vontrappit's fairly new
20:49.47lars-utuvlug is very dependent on uvsc, and I think that it needs some new student blood right now.  I feel it'll last.
20:49.48vontrapplast year?
20:50.07JoshHthe only reason it even gets any publicity is because this is utah, and bikinis are bad.
20:50.08joshc<PROTECTED>
20:50.14lars-utyup
20:50.30joshc<PROTECTED>
20:50.39JoshHlol a few years ago there was a big fiasco in davis county because some lady used to water her garden in a g-string
20:50.41joshc<PROTECTED>
20:50.44JoshHso the neighbors used to call the cops.
20:50.52joshc<PROTECTED>
20:51.30joshc<PROTECTED>
20:52.00lars-utthe zoning in Provo is a mess.
20:52.15*** join/#utah colera (~colera@158.91.203.5)
20:52.22joshc<PROTECTED>
20:52.31JoshHi honestly cant fathom why anyone would feel an urge to outlaw a place where you can get your hair cut by a woman in a bikini.
20:52.52JoshHeven in utah
20:52.55joshc<PROTECTED>
20:52.57coleraare we talking about bikini cuts!!
20:53.00JoshHi can understand it in iran
20:53.03JoshHor saudi arabia
20:53.09JoshHbut even for utah it seems extreme.
20:53.14colerawhat did i miss on the topic?
20:53.15coleralol
20:53.34coleraJoshH: although i would never go there i agree 100% with you
20:53.45colerahow can you outlaw something like that?
20:53.49joshc<PROTECTED>
20:53.57joshc<PROTECTED>
20:54.04lars-utI'm surprised they can get away with not being a 'sexually oriented business' - it's a 'crafty' business idea.
20:54.05JoshHi wouldnt go there either, but only because i always just shave my head with clippers and dont like paying for haircuts.  i have nothing against bikinis.
20:54.20coleralol
20:54.27JoshHnow, if they cut your hair nude, i would totally be there.
20:54.35JoshHbut its not worth forking over cash just for a bikini cut.
20:54.35colerafrom what i understand the cuts are rather pricey
20:54.49lars-utI imagine the tips are too
20:55.02colerajoshc: i am going to school.. yes
20:55.04JoshHlol i wonder if people stuff dollar bills into the bikinis.
20:55.38joshc<PROTECTED>
20:55.56joshc<PROTECTED>
20:56.01coleralol
20:56.07colerariiiight
20:56.09mrpulljoshc:  who's morals?
20:56.16joshc<PROTECTED>
20:56.28mrpullor the 9 judges at the top?
20:56.39joshc<PROTECTED>
20:56.46joshc<PROTECTED>
20:57.00mrpullin theory... I agree :)
20:57.12mrpullin reality?
20:57.40colerait's just that bikini cuts is just a hair salon with girls in bikins from what i understand they don't do lap dances or anything of the sort
20:57.51joshc<PROTECTED>
20:58.05mrpulljoshc:  agreed
20:58.07colerajoshc: then i guess we should close seven peaks as well
20:58.23joshc<PROTECTED>
20:58.27JoshHits a waterpark
20:58.33lars-utA common way for cities around here to uphold community moral standards in this regrard is to zone an area of the city for the operation of sexually oriented businesses.  Often that area will end up being in an industrial park / away from the general public.  That way rights are granted & the people don't have an uproar.
20:58.34coleralaws arn't about morals so much as order and sense
20:58.35joshc<PROTECTED>
20:58.52joshc<PROTECTED>
20:59.00colerajoshc: water park = bikinis everywhere
20:59.21joshc<PROTECTED>
20:59.23JoshHi dont think it should be legal for someone to have their right to get a lap dance taken away because the majority of people in their city find it immoral.  but of course, my opinion doesnt matter.
20:59.29coleralars-ut: Exactly
20:59.31colerawhich is fine
20:59.49lars-utIt's not taken away - it's moved.
21:00.00joshc<PROTECTED>
21:00.04JoshHis there anywhere in provo where strip clubs are legal?
21:00.09colerabut i wouldn't consider bikini cuts such s place
21:00.10leviI should probably participate in uvlug.
21:00.25joshc<PROTECTED>
21:00.43lars-utlevi: we could use some leadership - talk to jordy
21:01.06lars-utjordy AT gundy DOT org
21:01.09levilars-ut: I don't know anyone at uvsc.  I just attend a couple of night classes.
21:01.09colerajoshc: no i really think you should understand that law shouldn't regulate morality but COMMON SENSE
21:01.24colerawe are living in a theocracy
21:01.34leviOh geez, here we go again.
21:01.35joshc<PROTECTED>
21:01.45joshc<PROTECTED>
21:01.48colerai would agree with you if what you meant by morals was some universally accpeted truth
21:01.52colerabut that's not what you mean
21:02.01joshc<PROTECTED>
21:02.03lars-utlevi: there's a role for ya' if you are willing to contribute.
21:02.05joshc<PROTECTED>
21:02.54coleracorrection when i said we are living in a theocracy i meant to type we arn't living in a theocracy
21:02.55levilars-ut: I meant more on the level of going to meetings and participating in discussion, at least at first.  I made a particularly awful UUG pres, and I don't really want to damage uvlug as well. ;)
21:03.27lars-utlevi: gotcha - I'm still recruiting...
21:03.35joshc<PROTECTED>
21:03.58levicolera: Morality does not have to come from religion, it's only a possible source of moral values.
21:04.14lars-utlevi: just want uvlug to be in good hands - any posts to the list are appreciated as well
21:04.30coleralevi: true however definettly the most common
21:04.53joshc<PROTECTED>
21:04.57joshc<PROTECTED>
21:05.07colerabyu EE
21:05.23joshc<PROTECTED>
21:05.25colerai'm from NY
21:05.34joshc<PROTECTED>
21:05.40joshc<PROTECTED>
21:05.44coleraithaca
21:05.51colerai'm a junior
21:05.58joshc<PROTECTED>
21:06.00lars-utI used to live by Utica
21:06.01levilars-ut: What's the address of the mailing list? (and the subscription page?)
21:06.06Hhhhhithaca?
21:06.13colerajoshc: why?
21:06.14joshc<PROTECTED>
21:06.20Hhhhhi'll be applying to Cornell pretty soon
21:06.27joshc<PROTECTED>
21:06.30lars-utlink on the left hand side of uvlug.org for all 3 lists
21:06.31Hhhhhyea
21:06.32colerajoshc: no cornell uinv. Ivy leauge
21:06.53colerayeah good school very expensive
21:07.10lars-utlevi: http://uvlug.org/mailman/listinfo
21:07.45joshc<PROTECTED>
21:08.13joshc<PROTECTED>
21:08.22lars-utlevi: the uvlug dokuwiki has a constitution now, thanks to Jordy. ( http://uvlug.org/wiki/ )
21:08.35joshc<PROTECTED>
21:08.37*** part/#utah joshc (joshc@dsl092-197-123.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
21:08.52colerajoshc: just curious if you believe that laws come fom the morals of the people why isn't homosexuality illegal in 90% mormon provo?
21:08.58lars-uttoo late
21:09.04coleralo.l
21:09.35coleradarn wanted to hear the response to that one
21:09.55Hhhhhcolera: because there is a limit to that, and that is human rights
21:10.29Hhhhhmost people in Provo don't approve of homosexuality, but I doubt people feel they have the right to prohibit it
21:10.38JoshHthe fact is, laws are based on morals, but there is also a balance.
21:10.52Hhhhhmore than a balance, it is morals but with a limit
21:10.56coleraHhhhh: actually alot towns and cities still have laws regarding sodomy which includes homosecual act
21:10.59coleras
21:11.00JoshHalcohol isnt completely illegal in provo either, for the same reason.
21:11.27Hhhhhcolera: true, and as much as I disapprove of homosexuality, I think anti-sodomy laws is going too far
21:11.44colerahowever i believe these laws are unconstitutional for exactly that reason yuou can't legislate the people "morals"
21:12.06coleraHhhhh: amen
21:12.12JoshHim pretty much libertarian, i dont think anything should be illegal that doesnt violate the rights of another person.
21:12.15Hhhhhcolera: oh, you can perfectly legislate morals
21:12.30lars-utYou should be able to legislate any type of law you want.
21:12.31Hhhhhcolera: pretty much all laws are nothing but legalized morals
21:12.42Hhhhheven the idea of human rights is nothing but morals
21:12.51lars-utYou want a law - convince people & legislate it.
21:13.09colerayeah but those arn't so much morals as they are common beliefs all people hold
21:13.19bigdog_utlars-ut, money & convice people & legislate it
21:13.23Hhhhhcolera: and what are morals then?
21:13.35Hhhhhmorals are common beliefs about behavior
21:13.52Hhhhh(from a non-religious point of view)
21:14.08Hhhhhwell, no, from all points of view
21:14.10lars-utWhen a small group of people control the laws, that a problem - it takes the law out of the hands of the people (through accountable elected reps).
21:14.20Hhhhhreligious and non-religious morals differ from its source
21:14.51lars-utThat's why there is so much hullaballoo re: the Supreme Court - WAY too much power & no accountability.
21:14.57Hhhhhlars-ut: as long as Representatives really represent the people, it should be fine. It is corruption that causes problems
21:15.19Hhhhhthat's true, Supreme Court has too much power
21:15.35Hhhhhis there should be some sort override option?
21:15.38lars-utthe Supreme Court has been legislating.
21:15.45Hhhhhlike Congress's override of vetos?
21:15.56lars-utI don't know
21:15.57Hhhhhi dunno, i'm not even American (yet)
21:16.19JoshHwell, all the SC does is interpet the constitution, if they make a ruling that people dont like, congress can amend the constitution.
21:16.29colera<PROTECTED>
21:16.36colerathat's a scary thought
21:16.40coleralol
21:16.48coleralars-ut: i dunno about that
21:17.17lars-utMy understanding is that they are supposed to bound by the constitution, but of late the court has looked at other freakin' countries for precedents.
21:17.17colerathat's why we have checks and balances
21:17.37HhhhhJoshH: as long as the SC doesn't rule Congress's ability to ammend the constitution unconstitutional, lol
21:18.00lars-utcolera: If you can convince the people to pass the law, pass it.
21:18.01JoshHi do think the medical MJ decision and the eminent domain decisions were horrible though.
21:18.21leviAmending the constitution is not a law, so the SC doesn't have a say about it.
21:18.47JoshHthe SC should also be replaced by slightly younger people who arent senile.
21:18.51leviAt least not in the same sense as they can rule about the constitutionality of laws.
21:18.52lars-utScalia: "It may well be stupid, but if it's stupid, pass a law!" he said. "Don't think the originalist interpretation constrains you. To the contrary. My Constitution is a very flexible Constitution. You want a right to abortion? Create it the way all rights are created in a democracy, pass a law. The death penalty? Pass a law. That's flexibility."
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21:19.40lars-uttaken from: http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa022701a.htm
21:19.57colerawell as interesting as this is i think i need to clean my house : ) but i am sure that alot of what i was trying to say was lost in translation, basically i don't think it's cool to legislate ones religiously based morals on others ---> if they don't make rational sense as governing laws
21:20.35lars-utthat's why we vote
21:21.00TimRikeranyone work at linuxnetworx that can msg me chris worley's email address?
21:21.16lars-utI believe we have a lot of influence - calling/faxing a congressman makes it even more so.
21:21.25TimRikeroh. never mind. just found it again.
21:22.42colera^ attatched to previous comment: and i think that that's what we would be doing with banning bikini cuts
21:23.03JoshHbikini cuts wont be banned though
21:23.11JoshHsome fanatics will try, but it wont happen.
21:24.04lars-utI think that the business is set up the way it is as an affront to the people of the community.
21:24.13levicolera: Democracy isn't about making sense, though.  It's about doing what the majority wants.  We don't live in a pure democracy, though, so in effect it's more like doing what the majority wants, with the caveat that large minorities get disproportionate influence.
21:25.14lars-utI think our republic has done pretty well with Democracy - show me a better one
21:25.46lars-utlevi: I agree, though
21:26.35coleralevi: i feel you are very incorrect there, this is a representative democ. to protect the country from the idiot masses, learn about the founding father and you will realize that was one of there greatest strengths, a la electoral college congress etc.
21:26.46levicolera: Uhh.
21:27.19colerathey didn't trust the masses
21:27.40levicolera: You must not have understood what I said.
21:28.04colerayou said it's about what the majority wants
21:28.09coleranot what makes sense
21:28.12leviIndeed.
21:28.19colerai believe the opposite
21:28.24leviWhere did I say that is what our government is?
21:28.25lars-utThat's why it's so logical to make blanket statements like "Liberals are racist"
21:28.25colerait's about what makes sense
21:28.38colera?
21:29.00colerathat's why the masses dont' vote for president
21:29.08colerathey vote for people to vote for them
21:29.25leviI'm not ignorant, so please stop assuming I am.
21:29.26lars-utspecial treatment to someone based on something other than their merits
21:30.08lars-utIn a close elections, the masses DO vote for pres
21:30.13levicolera: Your first statement after mine did not disagree with it at all, except in the part where you say 'I disagree'
21:30.35levicolera: You described the mechanism, I described the effect of it.
21:31.40leviThe idea of a representative democracy is to put the government in the hands of the people, but with a layer of abstraction that prevents mob rule.
21:32.03coleraokay yeah i'm a bad reader
21:33.05colerabut i wasn't assuming that you are ignorant
21:34.27colerai thought that your comment was supporting what others were saying as far as whatever the people want goes. but ovbviously you were saying that's not how it is because we don't live in a pure democray. i agree
21:34.56leviWell, hold on, you're going too far the other way.  Give me a moment to say what I meant.
21:35.58leviIt is still true that 'whatever the people want goes'.  In a system that claims to be democratic at all, it is impossible to escape this.  The only question is /which/ people get to decide.
21:36.45leviIf a representative democracy works properly, the representatives vote based on how their constituents want them to.
21:36.49Maquis~lart wrists
21:36.56coleralevi: true
21:37.25leviBut due to the way things are broken down, groups of people who would otherwise be statistically insignificant can have a meaningful voice.
21:37.48coleravery true
21:37.58lars-utenter SIGs
21:38.03coleraindeed a good caveat
21:38.09leviIt is hoped that giving a greater voice to the minorities will allow for compromises with the majority.
21:38.30leviBut still, 'making sense' in any objective meaning is irrelevant.
21:38.53leviOne would hope that the masses will want things that make sense, but that is not necessarily the case.
21:39.44leviThe government provides a mechanism for the government people want to be enacted, whether or not it makes 'sense' from some arbitrary point of view.
21:41.57lars-utI think another problem of representation is a basic difference in philosophy between sides:  One side says empower the people by helping them with $ & programs from taxes, another side says minimalize taxes & govt to empower the people. (oversimplified)
21:42.40lars-utUnfortunately I see less & less of the latter
21:42.53levilars-ut: How is that a problem of representation?
21:43.21hansamcnabb: a stimulating debate, and frightfully on-topic
21:46.32amcnabb:)
21:46.47lars-utlevi: I feel that the 2 philosophies ARE representative of 2 sides of the people.  The problem that I see is I'd argue that a majority of the people support limited taxes & limited government.  Limited taxes & limited government are NOT being strongly advocated by our representative government.
21:46.56amcnabbhans: I've definitely learned a lot.
21:47.48lars-utSeems to be less & less difference between the 2 controlling parties, hence making them less representative of the people.
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21:48.44levilars-ut: OK, so you don't feel that there is enough variety in potential representatives?
21:49.00lars-utno, I don't.
21:49.42lars-utI vote for libertarians in local offices sometimes to have my voice heard.
21:50.15leviWell, I agree that it's hard to find a representative who fits my personal views.  I'm not sure if it's a widespread problem or not.
21:50.15lars-utI don't feel that any of the political parties out there match my views.
21:50.54leviI'm not a fan of our party system.
21:51.11lars-utI still call my reps, though.  I'm there constituent regardless of which party I don't belong to.
21:51.18lars-uts/there/their
21:52.10leviRight.  Even if you don't belong to their party, not all issues are broken along party lines, and he doesn't have to know whether you voted for him or not when you call with your opinion.
21:52.27lars-utyup
21:52.51lars-uta mouthful on the broadcast flag or national IDs, for example
21:53.02lars-utI'm gonna go to Costco & exercise my right to a <$2 polish dog & Diet Coke now.
21:53.17leviMmmm, Costco Polish dogs. :)
21:53.37leviBut it's a privledge, not a right. ;)
21:53.41lars-utlol
21:54.29leviI'm not saying the system actually /works/, just what the theory behind it is. ;)
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22:02.10Maquisif you have a datatype which includes a field with an arraylist and another field that has the number of items in the arraylist, it'd be *really* nice if you have arraylist.size() and the field giving the size match up
22:03.04leviMaquis: That does sound like a desireable trait.
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22:06.19leviSounds like a a partially-implemented feature. :)
22:07.02hansgenerally, that field would be a Bad Idea unless you had a compelling performance reason for it.
22:08.30vontrappi agree, and a compelling reason being more than just a little faster
22:09.14leviPremature optimization, etc.
22:10.06hans~praise luma
22:10.06ibotAll hail luma!
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22:17.20Maquisoh...
22:18.43tensai<PROTECTED>
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22:21.04Maquistensai: yeah
22:33.58Maquisquick vote on something
22:34.20Maquiswhen they're passing a pagenum to say which page of the search results they want, do i assume that they're counting from 0 or 1?
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22:35.43tensaistart from page 1
22:36.57Maquisi guess once i get this written, i can test and find out for sure... :)
22:57.05vontrappwell, usually, you have a list of pages or something where you can click a page number, and those usually have numbers, so just make sure you match up with those
22:57.37vontrappthose usually start with one as well, but i say "long live computer counting"
22:57.57Maquisyeah... looks like it's counting from 1...
22:58.18Maquisthere wasn't any documentation for which it was counting from though, so i figured i might as well see what people thought
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23:06.32hans~md2
23:06.35hans~md2 foo
23:06.39hans~md5 foo
23:06.48goozbachcrapflood warning
23:06.53goozbach1hello  2hello  3hello  4hello  5hello  6hello  7hello  8hello  9hello  10hello  11hello  12hello  13hello  14hello  15hello  16hello  17hello  18hello  19hello  20hello  21hello  22hello  23hello  24hello  25hello  26hello  27hello  28hello  29hello  30hello  31hello  
23:07.06goozbachI didn't know colors worked in irssi
23:07.22hansok, friendlies, how do I get the md2 hash of somethign?
23:08.36goozbachopenssl?
23:09.14goozbachecho "something" | openssl md2
23:10.02hansmmy hero
23:10.38Maquis~lart goozbach
23:10.47Maquishans: md2?
23:12.22tensaiMaquis: Message Digest #2
23:13.16goozbachyou can do md4 and md5 as well
23:13.34goozbachand sha1 and rmd160 and sha
23:14.02hansI wonder why it gives different results for md2 than this page: http://www.fileformat.info/tool/hash.htm
23:15.47tensaihans: newline?
23:16.19tensaihttp://www.fileformat.info/tool/hash.htm?text=foo%0A
23:16.30tensaiagrees with echo foo | openssl md2
23:17.04hansah, echo -n
23:17.11goozbachjes
23:17.21tensaiI was just getting to that
23:18.16hansthat still doesn't match for m
23:18.18hanse
23:18.26hans$ echo -n foobar | openssl md2
23:18.26hans3af4bb69e03489fc4ceebe50151d3e1a
23:19.31hansoh
23:19.35hansI had a space in the form
23:19.46hansnow, how to base64 it?
23:20.19goozbachopenssl base64
23:20.59goozbachhans: the answer to your next queston is openssl -help ;)
23:22.03hansI guess so. :) swiss army knife
23:22.08hanstoo bad it's such a pain to type
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23:23.45lars-ut~weather kpvu
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23:58.37vontrappi want to stop apache on my work computer, but it says it's not installed and there's no apache process, but yet, apache serves out a webpage...

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