| 00:58.05 | Maquis | ~lart goozbach |
| 00:58.18 | tene | ~lart Maquis |
| 00:58.22 | tene | wait, cancel that |
| 00:58.25 | tene | ~lart php |
| 01:07.37 | Maquis | ~hide |
| 01:07.42 | ibot | ACTION runs away to shelter. |
| 01:07.44 | tene | ~jedi php |
| 01:07.45 | ibot | ACTION chops off php's head with her lightsaber |
| 01:07.46 | tene | ~lart php |
| 01:07.54 | Maquis | ~lart tene |
| 01:07.59 | tene | :( |
| 01:08.06 | tene | Why would you do that to me, Maquis? |
| 01:08.09 | Maquis | http://paul.merton.ox.ac.uk/computing/paranoid-programming-language.html |
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| 01:56.22 | mheath | <tene> mheath: search excluding the phrase "java.html" <----Google ignores the ., though |
| 01:56.37 | mheath | So searching for -"java.html" would be the same as searching for -"java html" |
| 01:57.12 | tene | well |
| 01:57.15 | tene | yes |
| 01:59.45 | mheath | I'm trying to find information on displaying and interacting with HTML from a java program |
| 02:00.13 | roscivs | mheath: Do you mean like servlets, or do you mean some sort of parser? |
| 02:00.28 | tene | "error: can't find ltdl.h" "You need to get libltdl" |
| 02:00.35 | tene | "so... do I need libltdl?" |
| 02:00.38 | tene | *stab* |
| 02:01.32 | mheath | roscivs: Displaying web pages within my program, connecting links with callbacks, getting data from HTML forms, etc. |
| 02:01.38 | mheath | Is there any existing way to do this? |
| 02:02.04 | mheath | Basically, I want to display HTML webpages and have the interactive parts of HTML interact with my program. |
| 02:02.13 | levi | So, you want a Java web framework. |
| 02:02.38 | mheath | A Java webpage framework, yes. |
| 02:02.49 | roscivs | mheath: By "display HTML webpages" do you mean you want your GUI application to display web pages without the use of a browser? |
| 02:02.53 | levi | http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry/ |
| 02:03.01 | roscivs | mheath: Or do you mean, well, what levi just said. |
| 02:03.12 | mheath | roscivs: yes. |
| 02:03.24 | roscivs | mheath: Yes to both? |
| 02:03.28 | mheath | I want to have "mypage.html" rendered and displayed in my SWING program |
| 02:03.43 | roscivs | mheath: Aha. That's totally different from tapestry, then. |
| 02:03.50 | roscivs | And I don't know if such a thing exists. |
| 02:03.56 | levi | Oh. |
| 02:03.56 | mheath | And I want Links and Forms to be able to interact with my program |
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| 02:04.26 | mheath | (IE, setting a callback for a Link in the HTML to a particular function) |
| 02:04.38 | roscivs | I'm still not sure what you mean by that part. |
| 02:04.51 | levi | There's apparently a SWT browser widget. |
| 02:05.06 | roscivs | levi: Is it platform-specific? |
| 02:05.17 | levi | I don't know. |
| 02:05.29 | mheath | roscivs: Be able to make it so, when the "Submit" HTML button is clicked, mySubmitMethod() is called |
| 02:05.29 | roscivs | I guess if it's SWT it doesn't help his Swing program much, anyway. |
| 02:05.30 | mheath | and so on |
| 02:05.45 | roscivs | mheath: I see. |
| 02:05.47 | mheath | OR make it so when the "My Link" link is clicked, the whatToDoWhenMyLinkIsPressed() method is called |
| 02:05.55 | levi | javax.swing.text.html.* |
| 02:06.15 | levi | That might help. |
| 02:06.49 | mheath | levi: "Provides the class HTMLEditorKit and supporting classes for creating HTML text editors." |
| 02:07.29 | mheath | In a broader sense, what I'm looking for is something that gives me easy to use yet more powerful control over the visual appearance of my GUI program |
| 02:07.50 | mheath | I'm tired of the monotonous, standardized, heavily themeable GUI toolkits like SWING |
| 02:07.58 | roscivs | mheath: If you're wanting to design your GUI program using html, you're basically (imnsho) going about it the wrong way. |
| 02:08.22 | mheath | roscivs: how should I be going about it? |
| 02:08.32 | roscivs | Again in my opinion, either use something like Swing and create your own custom widgets where ones you want don't exist, |
| 02:08.53 | roscivs | or use servlets or PHP to deliver HTML content to a browser that was designed to handle HTML content. |
| 02:09.17 | mheath | Call me evil, but I see HTML as an elegant and extremely extensible solution for GUI development |
| 02:09.31 | mheath | Thats essentially what HTML + CSS has developed into |
| 02:09.39 | roscivs | I've never heard anyone who's spend any amount of time around HTML say that :-) |
| 02:09.42 | roscivs | Hehe. |
| 02:10.28 | mheath | roscivs: tell me you can make a more attractive looking GUI using basic SWING than HTML+CSS |
| 02:10.54 | mheath | I understand that SWING can be extended. Even fairly easily....... |
| 02:11.14 | mheath | But HTML is just so...elegant for GUIs. And 100% and easily extensible. |
| 02:11.30 | roscivs | I swear I've entered bizarro land :-) |
| 02:11.39 | roscivs | HTML? Elegant? /For GUIs/!?! |
| 02:11.50 | roscivs | I mean, Swing sucks, yes, but HTML? |
| 02:12.14 | roscivs | Anyways, to sidestep the issue somewhat, |
| 02:12.32 | mheath | I'm just tired of monotonous GUIs |
| 02:12.33 | roscivs | have you ever done server-side scripting, like in PHP or Perl? |
| 02:12.47 | mheath | roscivs: yes, in PHP. |
| 02:13.01 | roscivs | k, imagine Java doing the same thing as PHP, |
| 02:13.13 | roscivs | you connect to the server and your Java program delivers back HTML, |
| 02:13.21 | roscivs | when they submit a form or click on a link, it goes back to your Java program. |
| 02:13.24 | tene | mheath: check out http://enlightenment.org/docs/edjebook.html |
| 02:13.24 | roscivs | Would that do what you want, |
| 02:13.34 | tene | I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about that |
| 02:13.37 | roscivs | or is there something seriously missing from that avenue? |
| 02:14.05 | roscivs | (BTW, something to check out whilst we discuss: |
| 02:14.06 | roscivs | http://www.apl.jhu.edu/~hall/java/Swing-Tutorial/Swing-Tutorial-JEditorPane.html |
| 02:14.07 | roscivs | ) |
| 02:14.20 | mheath | tene: looking in a sec |
| 02:14.39 | mheath | roscivs: I'm working on a Linux Distribution Installer |
| 02:15.18 | roscivs | mheath: What's that thing they use for the Software for Starving Students cd ... doesn't that use HTML or some such? |
| 02:16.14 | mheath | And feeling frustrated. SWING, GTK, QT, etc. all seem so obsessed about looking the same and being extremely themable to the point where you don't really have any control over the look of your GUI |
| 02:16.37 | roscivs | I'm curious as to what you find the most lacking in Swing ... |
| 02:16.48 | roscivs | the layout managers? how the default widgets look? |
| 02:17.06 | mheath | your almost encouraged to make your programs lok like MS Word did 10 years ago, or like a MS Windows Properties box |
| 02:17.10 | tene | It seems like edje might be exactly what you're looking for here; I'll be very interested to see if it is. |
| 02:17.21 | mheath | roscivs: just how everything fits together....how the default widgets look, etc. |
| 02:17.42 | mheath | I mean, with HTML you have complete control over where everything is placed and how everything looks |
| 02:18.07 | roscivs | I'm not seeing the difference--with HTML you don't have any control over how the widgets look unless you use images ... |
| 02:18.07 | mheath | With all the modern toolkits, everythings based on encapsulation (a Table within a container, a Button within the table, etc) |
| 02:18.10 | roscivs | Swing is the same way? |
| 02:18.41 | mheath | roscivs: HTML + CSS |
| 02:19.53 | roscivs | mheath: CSS does give you a little more control when it comes to having multiple layouts for the same content, |
| 02:20.05 | roscivs | and it gives you more room to separate content from layout, |
| 02:20.14 | roscivs | is that mostly what you're after? |
| 02:20.47 | mheath | No. I'm looking to make my layouts look the way I want to simply and elegantly |
| 02:20.59 | mheath | without having to dive into the complex custom-widget framework of some giant toolkit |
| 02:21.20 | roscivs | Can you give me maybe a specific example of something you've tried to do and got frustrated with? |
| 02:21.37 | roscivs | Maybe there's a simpler way around it than finding a HTML+CSS renderer for Java :-) |
| 02:22.00 | roscivs | (The JEditorPane link above renders HTML but apparently doesn't do too well with CSS.) |
| 02:22.13 | mheath | I want to say "I want this HERE", not "I want this within the frame which is centered within the box, which is custom aligned within the window container...." |
| 02:22.34 | roscivs | By HERE do you mean pixels, or do you mean using some sort of Table layout like old-school HTML? |
| 02:23.08 | mheath | I want to do it several ways |
| 02:23.09 | tene | mheath: ignore roscivs and go read the edje doc. ;) |
| 02:23.19 | mheath | Heh, ok :D |
| 02:23.24 | roscivs | tene: I read the edje doc, doesn't look like what he wants :-) |
| 02:23.40 | roscivs | Read the JEditorPane doc instead ;-) |
| 02:24.06 | tene | maybe you read the RoscivsShutsUpNow doc instead |
| 02:24.12 | tene | ;) |
| 02:24.14 | roscivs | Hehehe |
| 02:24.23 | mheath | tene: haven't read very far into it yet, but it actually does sound *exactly* like what I want! |
| 02:24.26 | mheath | Only question... |
| 02:24.30 | tene | I thought so. |
| 02:24.31 | mheath | is there Java bindings? |
| 02:24.39 | tene | No. |
| 02:24.55 | tene | C and partial .net |
| 02:24.57 | roscivs | Read JEditorPane! It's exactly what you were looking for :-) |
| 02:25.06 | mheath | I could probably do it with SWIG |
| 02:25.24 | roscivs | It renders HTML, click on a link and it calls a method, |
| 02:25.40 | roscivs | I'm just not sure how great of HTML support it has. |
| 02:26.50 | tene | edje is awesome. |
| 02:26.52 | tene | <3 edje |
| 02:27.15 | tene | >3 roscivs |
| 02:27.19 | mheath | tene: thank you! |
| 02:27.19 | tene | >>3 |
| 02:27.24 | mheath | I've been using E17 |
| 02:27.24 | tene | np |
| 02:27.30 | mheath | no idea really how advanced this was |
| 02:27.40 | tene | nodnod |
| 02:27.48 | roscivs | Well, hope it works out for ya :-) |
| 02:27.48 | mheath | I've been really fed up with modern GUI design trends |
| 02:28.26 | roscivs | Now back to my infinite loop hunting down. |
| 02:28.50 | mheath | hahah |
| 02:29.06 | roscivs | It's Java. Eclipse is helpful though. |
| 02:29.22 | tene | -funrolloops, mheath? |
| 02:30.19 | mheath | Hah. |
| 02:30.59 | mheath | roscivs: can't java be debugged with GDB if you use GCJ to compile? |
| 02:31.21 | roscivs | mheath: Probably, I've never tried it before. Stepping through with eclipse is just as easy, though. |
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| 02:32.24 | mheath | Not nearly as featureful, though. |
| 02:32.42 | roscivs | What features doesn't it have? |
| 02:32.52 | tene | mheath: is java necessary for this project for some reason, or is it personal preference? |
| 02:33.05 | mheath | tene: personal preference. |
| 02:33.10 | tene | 'kay |
| 02:33.14 | mheath | (Send hate mail to: ..... ) |
| 02:33.17 | mheath | ;) |
| 02:33.27 | roscivs | I like Java :-) |
| 02:33.50 | tene | Wondering because of you not knowing if java could be debugged with the debugger that you chose to recommend. |
| 02:34.01 | tene | Made it sound like Java isn't your language of choice. |
| 02:34.12 | mheath | tene: I was half joking actually |
| 02:34.29 | mheath | I develop with Eclipse too |
| 02:34.35 | tene | oh, 'kay |
| 02:34.39 | mheath | And it depends on the circumstance |
| 02:34.50 | roscivs | So does GDB really have more features than Eclipse's debug, or were you just joking about that too? :-) |
| 02:34.58 | mheath | Java has become my language of choice for higher level, GUI programs. |
| 02:35.30 | mheath | roscivs: of course GDB has more features |
| 02:35.41 | tene | gdb can cook pizza |
| 02:35.46 | tene | >.> |
| 02:35.51 | mheath | Indeed it can ;) |
| 02:35.52 | roscivs | I'm curious as to what--if they're useful enough, maybe I'll switch :-) |
| 02:36.29 | mheath | I wouldn't |
| 02:36.50 | mheath | I'm not certain you CAN, anyoway |
| 02:37.02 | mheath | ah, you can't. |
| 02:37.12 | roscivs | More's the pity. |
| 02:38.43 | mheath | roscivs: I haven't worked with eclipses debugging TOO much (beyond day to day simple debugging) but its really only "set some break points and step through your program" right? |
| 02:39.06 | mheath | (Obviously check the states of various variables and operations when its breaked) |
| 02:39.33 | roscivs | It apparently has something or other where you can edit live code and run again, |
| 02:39.48 | roscivs | what else does gdb /do/ though? (I'm not very familiar or comfortable in gdb, |
| 02:39.58 | roscivs | about all I do with it is "set some break points and step through my program", |
| 02:40.05 | roscivs | plus checking memory/registers here and there.) |
| 02:41.00 | mheath | GDB with C is nice because you can heavily customize what information is displayed, and when and where its displayed |
| 02:41.23 | roscivs | With raw gdb or with some gui frontend? |
| 02:41.51 | roscivs | And apparently it wasn't an infinite loop, it just was taking a really long time. |
| 02:42.00 | roscivs | Does Java have problems with very large strings? |
| 02:42.21 | roscivs | I guess since strings aren't malleable that might be what's taking it forever... |
| 02:42.29 | mheath | I've never really worked with very large strings, to be honest. |
| 02:42.50 | tene | Superstrings, roscivs? |
| 02:42.58 | roscivs | I'm basically just hexdumping a file by passing in a byte array to a function, |
| 02:43.06 | roscivs | and that function constructs a string which it then returns. |
| 02:43.33 | roscivs | If I print out each line of the hexdump instead of concatenating it to the "toReturn" string, it finishes in maybe ten, fifteen seconds. |
| 02:43.50 | roscivs | But I've been running the "toReturn" version for nearly a minute now and no stoppage. |
| 02:44.34 | roscivs | So I guess it's taking the toReturn string, creating another string a character larger, copying the string, adding a single character to it, ad infinitum. |
| 02:44.46 | tene | ... ouch |
| 02:44.51 | roscivs | That's my guess anyway. |
| 02:45.44 | mheath | tene: about why I use java, though, I just find it much more efficient for high level programs |
| 02:45.55 | mheath | And easier to structure your program in a very nice way |
| 02:46.13 | levi | Compared to C, sure. |
| 02:46.23 | roscivs | Uh oh! :-) |
| 02:46.27 | roscivs | I see where this is going ... |
| 02:46.32 | roscivs | ;-) |
| 02:46.35 | levi | Java is a huge step up in programmer efficiency from C. |
| 02:46.48 | levi | And a moderate one from C++. |
| 02:47.29 | roscivs | The long-dead past, actually. |
| 02:47.37 | levi | But I don't think it's an optimal choice, programmer-efficiency-wise, for a single developer. |
| 02:47.47 | mheath | Oh no |
| 02:48.01 | mheath | Please don't tell me the L word! ;D |
| 02:48.07 | mheath | I hope your not going there. |
| 02:48.08 | tene | LISP! |
| 02:48.12 | roscivs | tene! |
| 02:48.15 | roscivs | You spoiled it. |
| 02:48.15 | levi | I'm not going there. |
| 02:48.18 | roscivs | It was supposed to be surprise. |
| 02:48.42 | levi | I mean, it's an option, but one among many. |
| 02:48.51 | mheath | bah, I'm getting my shoes scuffed up |
| 02:48.59 | mheath | I just shined them. But I'm trying to break them in... |
| 02:49.02 | mheath | Anyway |
| 02:49.10 | levi | Alas, it is the fate of all shoes to become eventually scuffed. |
| 02:49.31 | mheath | levi: heh, I spent an hour spit shining them last night |
| 02:49.47 | mheath | they were scuffed. Then they weren't. Now they are, and alas they well become scuff free again. |
| 02:49.49 | levi | Are these military shoes? |
| 02:49.55 | mheath | levi: Yes. |
| 02:50.00 | levi | Ahh, fun. |
| 02:50.34 | roscivs | Isn't everybody? |
| 02:50.38 | mheath | And the answer, BTW, is "No." |
| 02:50.48 | roscivs | Wait ... this isn't #military ?! |
| 02:50.57 | mheath | I'm sort of in the military. It's complicated. |
| 02:51.57 | mheath | I'm part of a youth organization at the moment. Basically, the tradeoff is we drill with the Naval reserves in exchange for starting at a higher rank if we actually join the military |
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| 02:52.30 | levi | Anyway, my gripe with Java is that it's got a particularly verbose syntax, and it's lacking efficient ways to take advantage of higher-order functions. |
| 02:52.35 | mheath | I'm planing on joining the Navy in a year, and I figured a year with a youth organization (only training once a month, two weeks a year) is worth about $300 more starting pay |
| 02:52.58 | tene | Java is really really boring to write, for me. |
| 02:53.04 | roscivs | So do you get to do programming in the military? |
| 02:53.11 | roscivs | You could write, like, wargames. |
| 02:53.17 | mheath | roscivs: hahah. |
| 02:53.24 | levi | You can now get those features in any number of languages, so I don't see Java as a particularly interesting language for solo projects. |
| 02:53.26 | mheath | I'm planning on doing nothing of the sort, actually |
| 02:53.35 | mheath | (Though I plan to work on a CS major while in the military) |
| 02:54.01 | mheath | I'm looking to be a Quartermaster in the US Navy (Steer ships, handle navigation, command boats) |
| 02:54.56 | mheath | levi: I'm currently working on a project designed to be very portable |
| 02:55.02 | mheath | I saw java as the best option |
| 02:55.27 | mheath | you can make portable code in almost any language, true, but with Java portability is, for the most part, a nonissue |
| 02:55.41 | levi | Well, portability to any platform that has a JVM installed. |
| 02:55.44 | mheath | You just code. You don't have to worry about platform or operating system specifics |
| 02:55.47 | mheath | levi: well, yeah. |
| 02:56.05 | mheath | That works ALL the most common platforms, and many of the lesser ones too. |
| 02:57.28 | tene | mheath: there's also efl bindings for ruby, btw |
| 02:57.58 | mheath | tene: I found some work on getting SWIG bindings for EFL |
| 02:58.07 | mheath | Which means Perl, Java, Ruby... |
| 02:58.26 | tene | 'kay |
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| 03:24.31 | tene | Root has landed! |
| 03:24.51 | barkingspider | :) I'm doing a gentoo install |
| 03:26.04 | barkingspider | brb |
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| 03:29.49 | tene | Root has landed! |
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| 03:30.34 | tene | that seems to scare him off. |
| 03:33.36 | gthornock | Portability with Java is only a non-issue if your definition of portability is limited to Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, AIX and some mobile stuff. Throw in another OS -- FreeBSD, for instance -- and portability suddenly /is/ an issue. |
| 03:34.11 | gthornock | If it compiles with gcj then you're still OK, but if you need the Sun JVM, problems ensue. |
| 03:34.48 | roscivs | gthornock: I wouldn't really include "some mobile stuff". The language is technically the same, but you can't just take code written for "the big three" and make it run on Java for embedded devices. |
| 03:35.47 | gthornock | Also true. |
| 03:36.42 | gthornock | I'm not sure that Sun has a JVM for AIX, either. IBM almost certainly does, though. |
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| 04:01.41 | mrpull|mobile | grrrr....the FC4 diskboot.img doesn't support my WiFi card |
| 04:01.53 | tene | ouch |
| 04:02.45 | mrpull|mobile | maybe I can bootstrap from some other thumbdrive distro? |
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| 05:26.29 | hans | scott: music statistic prog? I'm not sure I know what you're talking about. But maybe you mean http://falcon.fugal.net/~fugalh/hearnet/ or http://www.luminal.org/wiki/index.php/IMMS/IMMS |
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| 06:20.14 | xbmodder | hey |
| 06:20.16 | xbmodder | anyone here know german? |
| 06:21.32 | xbmodder | anyone here? |
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| 07:31.33 | colera | im here but don't know german |
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| 08:06.04 | kamathln | please read and support http://bangalore.gnu.org.in/?VTU-FLOSS_Campaign |
| 08:08.48 | *** part/#utah kamathln (foobar@220.226.21.9) |
| 08:11.35 | xbmodder | hey |
| 08:11.42 | xbmodder | colera, you still cthere? |
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| 19:14.35 | barkingspider | Hey peeps |
| 19:14.40 | barkingspider | hehe |
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| 20:34.03 | Hhhhh | hello |
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| 20:51.58 | tene | Hhhhhhello to you too. |
| 20:55.45 | Hhhhh | anybody heard anything about the state of the updates from FC2 to FC4 at the BYU CS machines? |
| 20:56.21 | tene | I could make something up about it if you'd like. |
| 20:57.06 | Hhhhh | hehe |
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| 21:05.47 | bonez39 | anyone? ideas on my unauthorized http access? |
| 21:06.16 | tene | huh? |
| 21:20.36 | bonez39 | tene, I was asking whether I should be worried, if my wireless access device's log shows unauthorized http access.. |
| 21:20.54 | bonez39 | tene, I have never read the device log and when I looked now it showed unauthorized access... |
| 21:50.59 | bonez39 | am I the only one here now? |
| 21:51.10 | tene | Yes. |
| 23:50.23 | hans | ch ch mmm |
| 23:50.25 | hans | pancake |
| 23:50.31 | hans | pancake mountain |