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| 01:42.39 | tene_ | Yar. |
| 01:43.00 | tene_ | Scripture/ebook/thattypeofthing reader for pocketpc? |
| 01:43.59 | tene | I can't manage to install EZReader from linux, and I don't want to bother with setting the pocketpc up on the windows machine if I can avoid it. |
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| 01:48.59 | tensai | tene: I have a netgear wg511 and it works great with the prism54 driver |
| 01:49.39 | tene | yeah? |
| 01:49.40 | tene | thanks. |
| 01:49.58 | tensai | and I actually got my $30 rebate on it. only took 2 months |
| 01:50.55 | tensai | one of my biggest requirements was a card that worked in monitor mode so I could go war driving, which the wg511 does |
| 01:51.53 | tensai | I wish I could plug in an external antenna but that wasn't a must-have feature for me |
| 01:51.58 | tene | the wg511 is a cardbus card, though |
| 01:52.03 | tene | and this is for a desktop machine. |
| 01:52.14 | tensai | oh. sorry, didn't catch that requirement |
| 01:52.34 | tene | no problem |
| 01:53.38 | tensai | don't go with the linksys wmp54g then. it's a paperweight under linux |
| 01:53.59 | tensai | ~lart broadcom |
| 02:08.31 | mheath | Out of curiosity, what is your (this is a question to everyone) free operating system of choice, other than Linux? |
| 02:08.55 | mheath | Anyone here use anything other than Linux and the BSDs? |
| 02:09.58 | Maquis | ~lart mheath for insinuating that there's something else out there... |
| 02:09.59 | Maquis | :) |
| 02:11.25 | mheath | Well |
| 02:11.29 | mheath | There's GNU. |
| 02:11.38 | mheath | And a free BeOS clone |
| 02:11.38 | linuxalien | I got winxp for free through a program at wsu. ;) |
| 02:11.41 | mheath | and Solaris is free now |
| 02:11.49 | mheath | And Plan 9..... |
| 02:11.52 | mheath | And Amoeba.. |
| 02:12.13 | mheath | Theres lots of stuff :) |
| 02:12.24 | mheath | Oh, Objex. |
| 02:12.31 | mheath | ReactOS.. |
| 02:12.43 | levi-laptop | There are a ton of little toy OSes out there. |
| 02:12.55 | mheath | Uh |
| 02:13.04 | mheath | I hope you weren't referring to my list. |
| 02:13.11 | levi-laptop | No. |
| 02:13.15 | mheath | Good. :) |
| 02:13.27 | mheath | Plan 9 looks interesting |
| 02:13.43 | levi-laptop | A lot of the toy OSes are very interesting, too. |
| 02:13.48 | tensai | freedos |
| 02:13.58 | mheath | Plan 9 is from Bell Labs |
| 02:14.09 | mheath | the same place another operating system came from ;) |
| 02:15.17 | mheath | I think that, with OpenSolaris, Solaris will become a lot more popular |
| 02:15.23 | levi-laptop | Yup, I'm aware of that. |
| 02:15.39 | levi-laptop | There's also Inferno. |
| 02:17.59 | levi-laptop | If you happen to have an Itanium or Alpha, you could run OpenVMS. |
| 02:18.17 | levi-laptop | (Or a VAX) |
| 02:18.47 | mheath | Nope |
| 02:18.51 | mheath | I have an old AMD and a Sparc |
| 02:18.58 | mheath | And an old laptop =\ |
| 02:19.54 | Maquis | what are some good open-source calendars out there? |
| 02:20.09 | Maquis | i've been using sunbird, but want to use something else |
| 02:20.23 | Maquis | i need something with a todo list, and all that |
| 02:20.46 | levi-laptop | There's evolution. |
| 02:20.49 | Maquis | i think i've looked at everyhing in freshmeat, and haven't found much |
| 02:21.06 | levi-laptop | And the kde pim stuff. |
| 02:21.07 | Maquis | i'm looking for somethingm that doesn't look/feel like outlook, and that isn't giant... |
| 02:21.45 | RyanE | palmpilot. small, not like outlook at all. :) |
| 02:24.00 | Maquis | monocalendar looks kinda interesting, but A) it appears to all be in spanish, and B) it doesn't seem to have todo lists |
| 02:24.19 | mheath | I can't get Solaris installed on this computer..... |
| 02:24.39 | mheath | Neither of the two CDs that are supposed to be bootable will boot |
| 02:25.00 | mheath | Which makes me hesitant to think they're both bad CDs |
| 02:25.27 | mheath | Plus, if you put them in another machine (I don't have another Sparc box, so I can't test boot them) you can read files off them |
| 02:25.39 | Maquis | mheath: i know that gentoo had a problem with some of their cds if your bios had certain bugs... |
| 02:25.56 | levi-laptop | Maybe you need some OpenFirmware magic to make them work. |
| 02:26.35 | levi-laptop | Maquis: You may actually want one of the minimal Palm sync tools. I recall I used one that was pretty lightweight and had calendars, todos, memos, etc. |
| 02:26.37 | mheath | All the stuff I read just says type "boot cdrom" at the OpenBoot prompt |
| 02:26.52 | mheath | Maquis: I'm trying Solaris again. Gentoo boots fine |
| 02:27.12 | mheath | and besides, a Sparc system's "BIOS" is an entirely different animal than a PC BIOS |
| 02:27.39 | levi-laptop | It's a forth interpreter. :) |
| 02:28.27 | mheath | I just get "Illegal Instruction" when I try to boot |
| 02:29.20 | mheath | And I can't find any help on the subject |
| 02:30.01 | tensai | are you sure it's not solaris x86? |
| 02:30.32 | mheath | Positive. |
| 02:31.11 | mheath | oh, BAH |
| 02:31.15 | mheath | I think I just saw the problem! |
| 02:31.38 | Maquis | levi-laptop: i tried to do one, but it just gave me compile errors... |
| 02:31.40 | mheath | Let me double check something... |
| 02:31.45 | Maquis | and it didn't look "pretty" |
| 02:32.53 | levi-laptop | Heh. Lightweight /and/ pretty. You're picky. ;) |
| 02:32.57 | mheath | I think I got an incompatible build/release of Solaris 9 |
| 02:33.01 | Maquis | yes... that's the problem |
| 02:33.12 | mheath | They say nothing about it, really, but the filename: |
| 02:33.14 | Maquis | i found a number of nice, lightweight, pretty calendars, but none of them had todo lists |
| 02:33.18 | Maquis | ;) |
| 02:33.37 | mheath | sol-9-u7-install-sparc.iso .......could the u7 perhaps be Ultra7? |
| 02:33.57 | mheath | Or Update 7? Or... ? O.o |
| 02:34.08 | levi-laptop | Maquis: So, you just need to bite the bullet and move to heavyweight pretty software. |
| 02:35.03 | mheath | If it means ultra7, that would explain it |
| 02:49.07 | mheath | sun.com is really slow |
| 02:49.14 | mheath | and rather unhelpful |
| 03:17.11 | Maquis | levi-laptop: yeah... i should... but it's slow... |
| 03:17.21 | Maquis | and it seems out of place with evilwm... :) |
| 03:17.37 | levi-laptop | Maquis: So, a faster computer... :) |
| 03:19.45 | Maquis | levi-laptop: will get that around the end of july... :) |
| 03:21.05 | levi-laptop | Maquis: How fast is your current one? |
| 03:27.17 | Maquis | levi-laptop: it's a 3-year-old laptop... |
| 03:27.37 | Maquis | moderately good for it's time... doesn't have a lot of things that i'd like to have, though... :) |
| 03:28.17 | Maquis | video card sucks |
| 03:28.25 | Maquis | it's heavy... |
| 03:28.25 | levi-laptop | Well, it might help to tell me the processor and RAM specs. |
| 03:28.30 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 03:28.32 | Maquis | where do i find those? |
| 03:28.45 | levi-laptop | ... |
| 03:29.13 | levi-laptop | What OS are you running? |
| 03:49.45 | Maquis | gentoo |
| 03:49.49 | Maquis | (sorry about the long break)... |
| 03:49.54 | Maquis | i know it's a p4 mobile... |
| 03:50.00 | Maquis | that's about all i know, though |
| 03:50.38 | RyanE | cat /proc/cpuinfo |
| 03:50.57 | Maquis | model name : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 Mobile CPU 1.60GHz |
| 03:54.39 | levi-laptop | How much RAM? |
| 03:54.57 | levi-laptop | You can see that with free |
| 03:58.31 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
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| 04:19.59 | Maquis | levi-laptop: any thoughts? |
| 04:26.50 | hans | ~dict spurious |
| 04:27.01 | hans | ~dict spurious |
| 04:35.57 | levi-laptop | Maquis: I think your 'speed' expectations have been spoiled by running minimalistic programs, and don't mesh very well with your 'pretty' expectations. :) |
| 04:37.15 | levi-laptop | Maquis: You would do much better with a RAM upgrade, though. |
| 04:37.52 | Maquis | levi-laptop: |
| 04:37.53 | Maquis | :) |
| 04:38.07 | Maquis | i will be having one when i get my new laptop |
| 04:38.20 | levi-laptop | You could probably upgrade the current one. |
| 04:38.30 | levi-laptop | What are you planning on doing with it when you get the new one? |
| 04:38.37 | Maquis | gonna sell it |
| 04:38.40 | Maquis | probably on amazon :) |
| 04:39.09 | levi-laptop | Ahh. Well, that works then. |
| 04:39.15 | Maquis | :) |
| 04:39.39 | Maquis | since I happen to kinda sorta know how the selling system works with amazon |
| 04:39.56 | levi-laptop | clearanceclub.com has a lot of good deals on laptops, including ThinkPads. |
| 04:56.02 | Maquis | gnight |
| 04:56.20 | levi-laptop | G'night. |
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| 05:24.53 | bonez39 | who's here? |
| 05:24.55 | bonez39 | anyone? |
| 05:25.16 | levi-laptop | Me. |
| 05:26.36 | bonez39 | laptop, eh? I am trying to enable printing over the 'net...I have a laser jet at home, hooked to a laptop, which is connected wirelessly..... |
| 05:27.00 | bonez39 | it's running winxp.....I am running linux at work here....how would I connect to that machine, so that I can send it print jobs? |
| 05:27.23 | tene | vpn? |
| 05:29.14 | bonez39 | tene: ok...vpn..... |
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| 05:45.01 | Hhhhh | hello |
| 05:45.50 | levi-laptop | Hhhhhi. |
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| 10:11.02 | hans | ~lart sprint |
| 10:11.35 | hans | I've been up since 2 because sprint's scheduled maintenance went sour |
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| 12:57.07 | *** join/#utah luminerd (~luminerd@c-24-2-69-204.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 12:57.41 | luminerd | Hello, anyone live near Salt Lake/Taylorsville/West Valley city area? |
| 13:04.22 | hans | yeah, some do |
| 13:04.28 | hans | they may not yet be here though |
| 13:05.24 | luminerd | hans, I see |
| 13:05.39 | luminerd | so is this channel for linux-fans meeting or just general chat or..? |
| 13:06.01 | luminerd | I just got bored and typed my state in and was pleased to find OSS-relatedness :P |
| 13:06.31 | hans | all of the above :) |
| 13:06.46 | hans | a lot of us just lurk most of the time and ask/answer questions |
| 13:06.55 | luminerd | haha nice, mostly linux or what? |
| 13:07.06 | hans | but we get bored sometimes and have flame wars about everything from editors and languages to politics |
| 13:07.36 | luminerd | sounds fun!!! what about window managers? I'll defend enlightenment to the death! |
| 13:07.38 | luminerd | haha |
| 13:07.55 | hans | yeah, it's fun to pick on gnome |
| 13:08.19 | luminerd | yea, not a gnome fan here |
| 13:08.29 | hans | in many ways it's like an extension of the lugs |
| 13:09.01 | luminerd | lugs? |
| 13:09.07 | hans | linux users groups |
| 13:09.15 | hans | e.g. sllug |
| 13:09.18 | hans | and plug |
| 13:09.27 | hans | (see topic) |
| 13:10.54 | luminerd | I see, nver heard of them |
| 13:11.07 | hans | pretty active groups |
| 13:26.34 | hans | hmm, cringely has an interesting idea |
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| 14:22.12 | goozbach | hans: do tell |
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| 14:47.35 | *** join/#utah luminerd (~journalis@205.127.241.46) |
| 14:47.39 | luminerd | Hello, how goes it |
| 14:49.35 | goozbach | welcome back luminerd |
| 14:49.40 | luminerd | thank you |
| 14:49.48 | luminerd | forgot to say bye when I left :/ sorry |
| 14:50.23 | goozbach | bah |
| 14:50.35 | goozbach | fogettaboutit |
| 14:51.07 | mheath | ah, hello luminerd :) |
| 14:51.59 | luminerd | sup :) |
| 14:52.11 | luminerd | so uh, it k with you guys if I hang in here from now on? |
| 14:52.21 | levi-laptop | Hi, luminerd. |
| 14:52.39 | levi-laptop | luminerd: Do you really glow? |
| 14:52.40 | luminerd | haha, lots of greetings, sup levi-laptop :) |
| 14:52.49 | mheath | hah. |
| 14:53.06 | luminerd | lol! why yes! I'm such a nerd I never leave my room, and I never tan, so my skin is so white it's luminous. I AM the LuminousNerd :) |
| 14:53.29 | goozbach | I was thinking more along the lines of A/V club... playing with lumination stuff |
| 14:53.38 | mheath | Bah, I wish there was someway to install Solaris off the internet..... |
| 14:54.08 | levi-laptop | Heh. I'm pretty white beyond my cycling jersey tan lines. |
| 14:54.38 | luminerd | Anyone ever configured Wacom to work on Linux? |
| 14:54.40 | goozbach | I finally got some sun this weekend |
| 14:55.02 | goozbach | I blame Jayce |
| 14:56.31 | mheath | >.> Gentoo it is, then. |
| 14:56.43 | luminerd | mheath: do slackware. it rules. |
| 14:56.48 | luminerd | lol |
| 14:58.14 | mheath | luminerd: uh |
| 14:58.23 | mheath | Notice I'm in ##slackware :) |
| 14:58.26 | mheath | This is a Sparc. |
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| 14:58.51 | tene | luminerd: I'm in taylorsville. |
| 14:58.57 | mheath | I really wish I could get Solaris to work, though |
| 14:59.02 | mheath | I was looking forward to giving it a try |
| 14:59.08 | mheath | tapH20guru: Hey! |
| 14:59.13 | mheath | How was the LUG meeting? |
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| 15:08.36 | mheath|sparc | Hey, barkingspider |
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| 15:10.43 | luminerd | Tene: cool! Are you the same tene who develops E? |
| 15:11.03 | barkingspider | hiya! How's it going? |
| 15:11.11 | mheath|sparc | Good. Installing gentoo at the moment :) |
| 15:11.25 | barkingspider | Gentoo is nice. I'll consider than when I get an ibook. |
| 15:11.39 | mheath|sparc | Linux livecd 2.4.29-sparc #1 Tue Mar 15 17:35:18 UTC 2005 sparc64 sun4u TI UltraSparc I (SpitFire) GNU/Linux |
| 15:12.21 | barkingspider | Do you like your new sparc? |
| 15:12.30 | mheath|sparc | Yep |
| 15:12.42 | mheath|sparc | I tried downloading Solaris (wanted to give it a try) |
| 15:12.43 | barkingspider | I hear those are nice. |
| 15:12.50 | mheath|sparc | Couldn't get it installed |
| 15:13.04 | mheath|sparc | Couldn't get the CD to boot, for that matter. |
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| 15:13.48 | tene | luminerd: nicks are global to the irc server, not channel specific. |
| 15:14.14 | barkingspider | Too bad Solaris didn't work. I'm sure it would be fun to try. |
| 15:14.16 | mheath|sparc | tene: your an E developer? I had no idea.... |
| 15:14.23 | tene | and I haven't done any e development yet, I just hang out in the e dev channels |
| 15:14.30 | mheath|sparc | oh |
| 15:14.45 | luminerd | tene: dude, that's awesome...but you are always in the e channel, glad to hear there's a local E fan!!! |
| 15:15.03 | mheath|sparc | Theres another one too, ;) |
| 15:15.07 | tene | I made a 2-line patch for something in cvs last night, but haven't submitted it yet. |
| 15:16.16 | luminerd | lol tene, that's cool |
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| 15:16.54 | luminerd | tene, you good at edje yet? |
| 15:17.32 | tene | I suppose I might be. I know it decently, but haven't done much with it. |
| 15:18.39 | luminerd | That's cool, maybe you could teach me sometime locally? I get much more out of watching and doing than reading and listening...I might be able to pay you for some lessons some timee |
| 15:19.36 | tene | the best thing that you can do is look at code that other people have written. |
| 15:19.39 | tene | and hack at it. |
| 15:19.48 | levi-laptop | You could pay me for Lisp lessons. ;) |
| 15:19.56 | luminerd | lol :) |
| 15:20.13 | tene | Yes, pay levi for lisp lessons, because lisp is good. |
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| 15:20.42 | luminerd | what's lisp? |
| 15:20.49 | luminerd | a language? |
| 15:20.50 | mheath|sparc | A programming language. |
| 15:21.04 | luminerd | what are its purposes/platforms etc |
| 15:21.13 | mheath|sparc | limitless/limitless |
| 15:21.13 | levi-laptop | At some point, I will probably offer to do some sort of free lisp intro tutorial things for local users groups. Because it's that cool. ;) |
| 15:21.15 | Hhhhh | it is a language very, very powerful but with the most retarded syntax ever |
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| 15:21.17 | tene | being the most awesome thing ever is its purpose. |
| 15:21.33 | tene | Hhhhh: you're just prejudiced against parens. |
| 15:21.38 | Hhhhh | (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((welcome to lisp)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) |
| 15:21.43 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: It's the coolest syntax ever. You just haven't come to appreciate it yet. |
| 15:22.04 | levi-laptop | mheath: Careful, they might come back and hit you. |
| 15:22.11 | luminerd | levi-laptop: lots of ( and ) in lisp I get from that/ |
| 15:22.13 | mheath|sparc | Good point. |
| 15:22.33 | Hhhhh | take that |
| 15:23.17 | levi-laptop | luminerd: Well, it mostly looks that way because everything is in function call syntax, and the function name is inside the parens instead of outside like in Algol-derived languages like C. |
| 15:23.45 | levi-laptop | So, instead of func(arg1, arg2) you have (func arg1 arg2) |
| 15:24.01 | luminerd | I see...sounds malevolent |
| 15:24.11 | Hhhhh | which can be rewrittem as (()()()(((()()())()()))()()( |
| 15:24.12 | levi-laptop | It's actually quite useful. |
| 15:24.23 | Hhhhh | without losing its syntactical beauty |
| 15:24.52 | levi-laptop | You can return a function from a function, and if it's in the first position of a list, it gets applied to the rest of the list. |
| 15:25.40 | Hhhhh | luminerd: I took a class (easy as pissing in the shower) using Scheme (a lisp-like language), functional language are very powerful but I'd rather do something like O'caml or ruby instead |
| 15:25.52 | Hhhhh | something that is semi-readable |
| 15:25.57 | levi-laptop | Lisp is all about higher-order functions and syntactic transformation. Because both Lisp programs and Lisp data can be represented in the same syntax, you can trivially modify Lisp programs with other Lisp programs. |
| 15:26.19 | luminerd | I want to learn something very easy, as the only programming I know is HTML and Flash Actionscript, which resembles Javascript and PHP |
| 15:26.36 | tene | then get some code and look at it. |
| 15:26.39 | Hhhhh | luminerd: what do you want to do? |
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| 15:26.41 | tene | and change it and see how it reacts. |
| 15:26.57 | Hhhhh | luminerd: that is the question |
| 15:26.58 | levi-laptop | luminerd: You could look at How To Design Programs, which is an easy introduction to programming in Scheme. |
| 15:28.10 | luminerd | I should probably learn something graphical. any programming language that has a nice gui? |
| 15:28.18 | Hhhhh | luminerd: what do you want to learn a new language for? believe me, no matter what people tell you, each language has its strenghts and weaknesses as well as areas for which they are better suited |
| 15:28.25 | levi-laptop | luminerd: You should learn to program, and then learn graphical stuff. |
| 15:28.47 | Hhhhh | i'm tired of people saying "oh, language X is powerful and it is good for everything" |
| 15:28.54 | levi-laptop | Graphical stuff is ephemeral, the basics of programming are universal. |
| 15:28.59 | luminerd | levi-laptop: but I think graphically |
| 15:29.00 | mheath|sparc | luminerd: how is a language graphical? |
| 15:29.04 | tensai | guis are over-rated |
| 15:29.04 | Hhhhh | I can't wait to go dance on the tumb of the retard who wrote a ray tracer in lisp |
| 15:29.14 | luminerd | mheath|sparc: IE, VisualBasic |
| 15:29.17 | mheath|sparc | The only "graphical language" I can think of is Microsoft's Visual Basic. |
| 15:29.22 | Hhhhh | delphi |
| 15:29.26 | levi-laptop | luminerd: You can't currently program graphically, though. You program the same way whether you're writing a gui or a server application. |
| 15:29.30 | tensai | luminerd: stop saying the word! |
| 15:29.39 | mheath|sparc | And thats probably the worst programming language in existance (VB) |
| 15:29.51 | luminerd | levi-laptop: I know, but you can design GUIs graphically, then you have to program the actual functionality. |
| 15:29.54 | tene | err... what's graphical about VisualBasic? |
| 15:30.02 | Hhhhh | luminerd: for the third time, what kind of stuff do you eventually want to do? |
| 15:30.03 | luminerd | tensai: what word? |
| 15:30.04 | tene | I actually know nothing about it. |
| 15:30.37 | luminerd | Hhhhh: well, not sure what I want to do |
| 15:30.37 | levi-laptop | luminerd: Right. So, you're still stuck if you can't program. |
| 15:30.37 | luminerd | tene, in VB you drag and drop to design your program's GUI |
| 15:30.39 | mheath|sparc | tene: the actual language isn't graphical, obviously, but its entirely designed to make simple GUI programs |
| 15:30.44 | tene | that's not programming, though, that's a gui designer |
| 15:30.45 | levi-laptop | Designing a GUI is a totally different skill than programming. |
| 15:30.46 | tensai | VisualBasic. worst. development environment. ever. |
| 15:30.59 | luminerd | I would like to help out my favorite window manager, E, really...which means I should learn Edje and C, but not sure if those are good starting points |
| 15:31.07 | tene | luminerd: you could use glade/GTK#/mono |
| 15:31.13 | tene | sure they are |
| 15:31.17 | Hhhhh | tensai: are you talking about Visual Studio? |
| 15:31.18 | tensai | levi-laptop: and they should be done independently too |
| 15:31.19 | tene | great place to start |
| 15:31.42 | luminerd | tene...what? that's the name of the lingo? |
| 15:31.45 | luminerd | crazy. |
| 15:31.49 | Hhhhh | tensai: are you talking about Visual Studio? |
| 15:32.02 | tensai | Hhhhh: VB makes me ill. visual studio not so bad. |
| 15:32.06 | mheath|sparc | VisualBasic is a development environment. |
| 15:32.17 | Hhhhh | tensai: ok, I agree with you |
| 15:32.17 | mheath|sparc | What implied he was talking about VisualStudio? |
| 15:32.31 | tene | luminerd: glade is an application/library for laying out a graphical interface in gtk |
| 15:32.36 | Hhhhh | so you mean the old VB |
| 15:32.40 | luminerd | oh I see |
| 15:32.43 | tene | gtk# is a C# library for using gtk |
| 15:32.44 | Hhhhh | not that the newer VB .NET is any good |
| 15:32.45 | luminerd | gtk? |
| 15:32.50 | tene | mono is the open-source .net runtime |
| 15:32.53 | Hhhhh | but I find Visual Studio to be quite good |
| 15:32.58 | luminerd | I don't understand libraries at all |
| 15:33.09 | Hhhhh | luminerd: gtk is the Gnome Toolkit |
| 15:33.15 | tene | gtk is the gimp toolkit, the graphic library used by gnome |
| 15:33.16 | luminerd | gnome is the epitimy of evil. |
| 15:33.25 | tene | Hhhhh: don't lie to the noobs. |
| 15:33.26 | Hhhhh | a library that is good for making windows and GUIs, among other things |
| 15:33.49 | tene | http://www.gtk.org/ |
| 15:34.11 | Hhhhh | sorry, I meant gimp |
| 15:34.26 | Hhhhh | I don't like gnome |
| 15:34.40 | tene | You can't lie to me! I know your secret lust for spreading disinformation! |
| 15:34.46 | luminerd | so glade is drag and drop gui design? |
| 15:34.52 | tene | Yes. |
| 15:35.04 | luminerd | SWEET! |
| 15:35.07 | levi-laptop | You still have to know how to program to make an application with it. |
| 15:35.07 | tene | go with efl/edje, though, you'll learn more and have more fun. |
| 15:35.08 | luminerd | me download now! |
| 15:35.37 | luminerd | tene, I reall REALLY prefer drag and drop to typing out a bunch of nonsense |
| 15:35.48 | mheath|sparc | You can do that with GTK |
| 15:35.49 | mheath|sparc | or QT |
| 15:36.20 | tene | you still have to write code to *do* something with the interface. |
| 15:36.37 | tene | and there will be ewl and edje graphical design applications eventually. |
| 15:37.00 | tensai | qt designer is another gui tool |
| 15:37.06 | luminerd | tene: yes, but that's how I like it |
| 15:37.18 | luminerd | Similar to flash: design your gui graphically, then make it do things with code |
| 15:37.21 | luminerd | I love it like that |
| 15:37.37 | luminerd | tene, when edje comes with a gui I'll be _ALL_ over it |
| 15:38.08 | levi-laptop | Heh, sweet. Emacs-clone on Lisp on bare x86 hardware: http://www.emmett.ca/~sabetts/ |
| 15:38.09 | tene | ... whatever |
| 15:38.57 | tene | http://nat.org/demos/gtksharp.html |
| 15:39.05 | tene | go watch that. |
| 15:39.32 | luminerd | tene: require sound? |
| 15:39.45 | tene | no |
| 15:39.56 | luminerd | ok |
| 15:40.03 | tene | quit asking questions and go watch it |
| 15:40.04 | tene | now |
| 15:40.49 | tene | thx |
| 15:40.56 | tene | ibot: emulate gir |
| 15:40.57 | ibot | my walnuts! |
| 15:41.01 | dataw0lf|w | np |
| 15:42.15 | tene | luminerd: there's a really nice IDE for mono also |
| 15:42.20 | luminerd | tene, AWESOME!!! |
| 15:42.42 | tene | quit chatting, you're not done with the video yet! |
| 15:45.38 | tene | luminerd: also, if you want to do anything very interesting, graphically, it's *much* more difficult in a widget-based library. |
| 15:45.40 | luminerd | Dang, that thing looks to have a lot of power! |
| 15:45.51 | tene | while it's *very* easy with edje. |
| 15:46.25 | luminerd | tene you are trying to discourage me from glade by showing me this? |
| 15:46.26 | mheath | I find GTK limiting, personally |
| 15:46.36 | mheath | and have been looking for the "perfect" gui library |
| 15:46.41 | tene | gtk is very limiting |
| 15:46.50 | luminerd | edje not easy, not in the least. but I can already see uses of glade :) |
| 15:46.58 | mheath | GTK and QT place too muhc emphasis on simplicity so that its all themeable through a very simple theme system |
| 15:47.03 | tene | luminerd: it's actually very easy. |
| 15:47.10 | mheath | Meaning that if you want to do neat looking things....you can't |
| 15:47.21 | luminerd | when edje has a gui I want to use it, until then, I think graphically. Glade will be a good entry, no? |
| 15:47.42 | mheath | Know the risks with Glade... |
| 15:47.44 | tene | the only things that you can do with gtk is widget-based applications. |
| 15:47.49 | mheath | The end user has to have the glade libs |
| 15:47.53 | mheath | not everyone has those |
| 15:48.08 | luminerd | every program has its dependancies |
| 15:48.13 | mheath | and if your not familiar with complex compiling, building a glade-enabled program will take some learning. |
| 15:48.44 | tene | mheath: it's pretty simple with mono, actually. |
| 15:48.54 | mheath | Bah, mono. |
| 15:49.13 | luminerd | I think someone should develop an edje gui very soon |
| 15:49.18 | luminerd | That would be very cool |
| 15:49.26 | luminerd | Not necesarrily a required gui |
| 15:49.29 | luminerd | but something optional |
| 15:49.30 | mheath | tene: do you happen to know if E will run on a Sparc? |
| 15:49.36 | mheath | (running Linux) |
| 15:50.12 | tene | I do not. |
| 15:50.18 | tene | #edevelop might, though |
| 15:50.26 | levi-laptop | "I think graphically" is not an excuse to avoid learning to program if you want to write real programs. |
| 15:50.28 | tene | luminerd: then you develop it. |
| 15:50.48 | luminerd | levi-laptop: I'm not using it as an excuse, I want to learn C, I want to learn all this crap, but I have to start somewhere |
| 15:50.58 | luminerd | tene: love to....but I'm just a newbie |
| 15:51.07 | tene | why start with something graphic anyway? |
| 15:51.25 | tene | gui stuff isn't the important part anyway |
| 15:51.30 | luminerd | I don't even remember the bit I learned about edje, it would come back a little if I saw it, but I'm very new |
| 15:51.35 | Hhhhh | tene: question: the video shows how to use glade to make guis for C#. Is it just as easy to do it with C/C++ |
| 15:51.37 | Hhhhh | ? |
| 15:51.45 | tene | it's just one of many ways to let people talk to your program. |
| 15:51.56 | luminerd | tene, would developing a gui with edje for edje be a good start? or is that very advanced? |
| 15:51.56 | tene | Hhhhh: I have no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me. |
| 15:51.58 | levi-laptop | luminerd: I say you should start with something that teaches you how to write programs, not a graphical environment for programmers. |
| 15:52.12 | tene | luminerd: I think that it could be a great start. |
| 15:52.12 | luminerd | levi-laptop: very well, what is your suggestion? |
| 15:52.14 | Hhhhh | luminerd: I concur with levi-laptop |
| 15:52.27 | tene | a great start for gui stuff, at least |
| 15:52.33 | luminerd | I don't know _where_ to start doing something like that though |
| 15:52.40 | levi-laptop | I suggested earlier 'How To Design Programs', but I doubt I will get much agreement here. :) |
| 15:53.06 | tene | pick up a copy of 'programming perl' |
| 15:53.16 | levi-laptop | http://www.htdp.org/ |
| 15:53.22 | luminerd | :/ |
| 15:53.42 | Hhhhh | luminerd: everyone here is going to suggest a different language, but you mentioned that you would end up using C, right? |
| 15:53.48 | luminerd | perl, php...web programming languages...not really interested. I mean they just don't have power. |
| 15:53.53 | levi-laptop | HTDP uses DrScheme, which is a Scheme implementation with a learning-oriented IDE. |
| 15:54.00 | luminerd | Hhhhh: C is too complex for me now |
| 15:54.10 | luminerd | I do know I want to learn edje, though...I think that'll be my start |
| 15:54.14 | Hhhhh | i don't think so, i think C is a good starting point |
| 15:54.21 | Hhhhh | the starting point depends on the endpoint |
| 15:54.23 | tene | C is a great starting point. |
| 15:54.40 | Hhhhh | if you want to end up doing C, i suggest you start with C |
| 15:54.51 | luminerd | No, C is a horrible starting point. I have looked into it, and it is confusing as hell. |
| 15:54.58 | tene | ... |
| 15:54.58 | luminerd | At least I can understand a little of edje! |
| 15:55.00 | levi-laptop | C is a poor starting point, IMO. Too many side-issues to trip up a newbie. It's a good second language to learn, though. |
| 15:55.08 | Hhhhh | ok, try a C-like language |
| 15:55.12 | Hhhhh | like C# or java then |
| 15:55.12 | luminerd | edje! |
| 15:55.18 | Hhhhh | but I still suggest C |
| 15:55.20 | luminerd | edje!!!! why not edje?! |
| 15:55.25 | levi-laptop | For someone familiar with programming concepts, C is okay. |
| 15:55.29 | tene | luminerd: because it's not a programming language. |
| 15:55.36 | luminerd | tene, yes it is! |
| 15:55.41 | tene | ... |
| 15:55.42 | vontrapp | luminerd: you don't want to start with throwing guis together |
| 15:55.53 | luminerd | tene you just said it would be a good starting point |
| 15:55.53 | Hhhhh | yea, don't |
| 15:55.57 | tene | you need an application to use the edje interface that you build. |
| 15:55.57 | vontrapp | guis are _not_ basics, you want to start with the basics |
| 15:56.00 | luminerd | vontrapp, why not, that's the juice of a program imo |
| 15:56.09 | mheath | O.o |
| 15:56.12 | tene | ... |
| 15:56.12 | vontrapp | it is most definately not |
| 15:56.13 | mheath | Your opinion is wrong, then. |
| 15:56.17 | Hhhhh | luminerd: that is just the front end, the important stuff isn't the gui |
| 15:56.17 | tene | where would you get that idea? |
| 15:56.32 | mheath | tene: it starts with an M, followed by an i.... |
| 15:56.36 | luminerd | opinions can't be wrong. the important stuff is obviously not in the gui, but the "juice" imo, the best part, is in the gui |
| 15:56.41 | Hhhhh | luminerd: really, if you are going to end up doing C, I suggest C |
| 15:56.49 | tene | luminerd: what sort of anything could you do with just a gui? |
| 15:56.57 | luminerd | I'm getting different opinions from everyone, and different opinions from the same people too! will you come to a concensus?! |
| 15:57.02 | levi-laptop | I think C is most definitely the WRONG destination these days. |
| 15:57.17 | Hhhhh | ok, luminerd: you are asking for our opinions, you got our opinions. Feel free as you wish |
| 15:57.18 | luminerd | Hhhhh: you don't get it do you? NO to C. C sucks for now. I can't get it, not possibly...I will kill myself |
| 15:57.21 | mheath | tene: make pretty looking things that do nothing? ;) |
| 15:57.25 | levi-laptop | Unless you want to do embedded systems development. |
| 15:57.31 | Hhhhh | luminerd: I started with C |
| 15:57.48 | luminerd | I am sure you knew php or perl or python or something before that, Hhhhh |
| 15:57.52 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: don't you see that he will actually end up using C? |
| 15:58.03 | mheath | luminerd: then your programming is doomed. |
| 15:58.04 | luminerd | no one _starts_ completely from scratch with C...It's unheard ov |
| 15:58.05 | luminerd | *of |
| 15:58.09 | Hhhhh | luminerd: nope, just a tiny little bit of basic |
| 15:58.11 | tene | ... I did. |
| 15:58.15 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: No, I see that he thinks he wants to use C now, but doesn't know anything about it. |
| 15:58.24 | mheath | If your so closed to the possibility of learning C, you stand very little chance of becoming a good programmer. |
| 15:58.25 | luminerd | mheath doomed because of why? |
| 15:58.42 | luminerd | *sigh* |
| 15:58.43 | mheath | imo :) |
| 15:58.50 | tene | dooooom! |
| 15:58.57 | levi-laptop | You can be a fine programmer without learning C. |
| 15:58.57 | vontrapp | ~doom |
| 15:58.58 | ibot | methinks doom is prboom at http://www.gnurou.org/software/zaurus/ |
| 15:58.59 | tene | ibot: diin |
| 15:59.09 | Hhhhh | ok |
| 15:59.12 | levi-laptop | So long as you learn machine-level concepts elsewhere. |
| 15:59.24 | mheath | levi-laptop: yes, but you can't be a fine programmer if you sit and think C sucks because it doesn't have a simplistic GUI system built in. |
| 15:59.24 | vontrapp | i think the only consensus here is don't start by making a gui |
| 15:59.28 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: ha! |
| 15:59.55 | Hhhhh | I concur with vontrapp |
| 15:59.59 | levi-laptop | mheath: Yes, I agree with that. |
| 16:00.08 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: ha? |
| 16:00.08 | tene | agreed |
| 16:00.37 | luminerd | [08:59] <luminerd> would you consider C a good starting language? |
| 16:00.37 | luminerd | [08:59] <f3ew> int is 32 bit on everything better than a 286 today, afaik |
| 16:00.38 | luminerd | [08:59] <f3ew> luminerd: yes |
| 16:00.38 | luminerd | [09:00] <PoppaVic> No. Consider pascal or forth - learn basics |
| 16:00.57 | Hhhhh | luminerd: forth! lol! |
| 16:01.08 | tene | well, I think that doing graphic stuff in c with efl libraries could be a decent place to start. |
| 16:01.14 | Hhhhh | that guy must be one of those old Unix dudes |
| 16:01.29 | mheath | luminerd: I think he was joking. |
| 16:01.34 | luminerd | tene I don't even get how C works |
| 16:01.37 | tene | luminerd: read through the efl cookbok and edjebook and such in cvs |
| 16:01.40 | mheath | luminerd: then LEARN! |
| 16:01.45 | luminerd | I learn visually...thats why online guides and crud don't really help me |
| 16:01.50 | mheath | I didn't know how C works when I first started learning it |
| 16:01.53 | luminerd | tene, already have |
| 16:01.54 | Hhhhh | luminerd: I can help you look for some tutorials |
| 16:02.00 | tene | look in e17/docs/ |
| 16:02.04 | mheath | luminerd: then code |
| 16:02.07 | luminerd | Hhhhh: The tutorials do nothing for me |
| 16:02.09 | mheath | make hello world |
| 16:02.11 | mheath | Hands on |
| 16:02.22 | tene | luminerd: I've already told you, get soem code and read it and change it. |
| 16:02.25 | mheath | Actually DO the samples/assignments a "Learning C" guide gives you |
| 16:02.26 | tene | any code |
| 16:02.27 | levi-laptop | luminerd: Forget this channel, go look at http://www.htdp.org/ and work through the exercises in the textbook. Then you will be enlightened. |
| 16:02.32 | luminerd | what I really need is a private tutor, but everyone hates someone who wants a private tutor... |
| 16:02.50 | Hhhhh | luminerd: no, if that way is better for you then do it |
| 16:02.57 | tene | what would a tutor give you that you can't get on your own? |
| 16:03.04 | tene | reading thigns to you? |
| 16:03.33 | luminerd | tene: hell no...that's why I need a tutor...so that they can explain my questions. if I read a book or doc, I absorb the info and crap it right out |
| 16:03.33 | tene | you learn much more by figuring things out for yourself |
| 16:03.36 | Hhhhh | tene: some people get a lot of advantage of having someone walking with them |
| 16:03.52 | tene | if you insist on someone teaching you, go take a class at the local community college or something. |
| 16:03.53 | Hhhhh | tene: i've been a TA for a while, and I mean that |
| 16:03.55 | mheath|sparc | luminerd: ask questions in here or elsewhere |
| 16:03.57 | mheath|sparc | try things out |
| 16:04.03 | luminerd | tene: maybe YOU do. but anyway I'm not going to be able to get one anyway :/ so it doesn't matter |
| 16:04.06 | tene | luminerd: you crap it out because you don't use it. |
| 16:04.12 | luminerd | tene: PRECISELY |
| 16:04.14 | mheath|sparc | You don't have to just sit and read a thousand page book without asking questions or trying things out. |
| 16:04.21 | luminerd | and I can't learn enough to actually DO something before I crap it out! |
| 16:04.25 | Hhhhh | luminerd: ok, ok, then what do you think would be best? |
| 16:04.33 | mheath|sparc | luminerd: ..... |
| 16:04.43 | levi-laptop | luminerd: If you do the HTDP thing, I will be happy to answer any questions you have via IRC. |
| 16:04.45 | mheath|sparc | You can't remember "main(){}" ? |
| 16:04.46 | luminerd | Hhhhh: I don't know! Edje sounds good, but everybody's mad at me for wanting to do edje. |
| 16:04.48 | mheath|sparc | There you go |
| 16:04.55 | mheath|sparc | A program that will compile |
| 16:04.59 | mheath|sparc | "main(){} |
| 16:05.11 | Hhhhh | luminerd: nobody is mad, but I suggest you learn something a bit more mainstream, and C seems to fit better |
| 16:05.13 | luminerd | brb |
| 16:05.16 | mheath|sparc | Remember simple things first |
| 16:05.20 | mheath|sparc | Then work up :) |
| 16:05.23 | tene | luminerd: if you want to try edje, then go read the edjebook and efl cookbook and do the stuff in there. |
| 16:05.26 | tene | and see how it works |
| 16:05.32 | tene | if it works for you, then great. |
| 16:05.36 | tene | otherwise, don't. |
| 16:05.43 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 16:05.45 | tene | but then you'll have done something to make a decision for you |
| 16:06.16 | luminerd | :/\ |
| 16:06.19 | luminerd | *:/ |
| 16:06.23 | tene | or |
| 16:06.29 | tene | do the htdp thing |
| 16:06.35 | luminerd | htdp? |
| 16:06.35 | tene | http://www.htdp.org/ |
| 16:06.46 | tene | that levi keeps linking you to and you keep ignoring |
| 16:07.01 | tene | he even offered to help you with any questions you have about it. |
| 16:07.29 | luminerd | tene, actually wasn't ignoring, had it in browser, just hadn't had a chance to look yet |
| 16:07.39 | tene | well, not responding to |
| 16:07.52 | tene | I think that you should check it out. |
| 16:07.59 | levi-laptop | That will teach you the concepts of writing programs. Many here will say it's pointless because it's not in a language they like, but the concepts are the same regardless of language. |
| 16:08.06 | tene | it will give you a nice introduction to basic computer science concepts. |
| 16:08.35 | luminerd | *sigh* I don't want to be introduced to concepts...I want to do something |
| 16:08.48 | tene | you *can* do things. |
| 16:08.51 | levi-laptop | The nice thing about it is that the language it uses is extremely simple. |
| 16:09.03 | levi-laptop | luminerd: I don't want to learn to walk, I want to RUN! |
| 16:09.27 | tene | unless by "things" you mean "make some application using edje" |
| 16:09.41 | levi-laptop | luminerd: I.e., what you say makes no sense. You must learn concepts first, if you want to be any good at doing the more advanced things. |
| 16:10.30 | luminerd | yes... |
| 16:10.31 | vontrapp | luminerd: don't be overwhelmed now, we just get a little zelous at times |
| 16:10.34 | luminerd | maybe programming's not for me |
| 16:10.39 | luminerd | I should stick to graphic design |
| 16:10.53 | Hhhhh | heh |
| 16:10.56 | luminerd | there's so many languages, I could never learn them all |
| 16:10.59 | vontrapp | i would suggest looking at a simple hello world program (any language) and asking questions about what you don't understand |
| 16:11.13 | Hhhhh | you don't have to, just choose the one that suits your interests best |
| 16:11.14 | tene | luminerd: the differences between languages are very little. |
| 16:11.19 | tene | the basics are all the same |
| 16:11.25 | Hhhhh | nobody knows all the languages |
| 16:11.28 | levi-laptop | While it's possible to learn the concepts in the context of pretty much any language, it's easier to learn them in a simple context, especially if you aren't inclined towards a complex language like C to begin with. |
| 16:11.38 | tene | yes |
| 16:11.40 | tene | quite |
| 16:11.40 | luminerd | Hhhhh: it's very intimidating how many there are though |
| 16:11.52 | tene | seriously, go read and work through htdp |
| 16:12.03 | Hhhhh | luminerd: nah, sticking to one for a while would work fine |
| 16:12.11 | luminerd | that thing's huge, very intimidating as well |
| 16:12.20 | Hhhhh | whenever you see the need of learning another one, then you can worry about that |
| 16:12.21 | tene | well, what about the first chapter? |
| 16:12.30 | tene | think you could read and work through the first chapter? |
| 16:12.54 | Hhhhh | luminerd: everything requires effort, I could feel the same way about graphic design |
| 16:12.57 | luminerd | sixth sentance and I'm lost |
| 16:12.58 | luminerd | Given a circle of radius r, its circumference is r times two times pi. |
| 16:13.10 | tene | that's geometry. |
| 16:13.30 | tene | the circumfrence of a circle is pi times the diameter |
| 16:13.35 | luminerd | I'm still in the middle of geometry, and I don't know jackshit about it because my teacher sucks ass at teaching it |
| 16:13.36 | tene | that's the definition of pi |
| 16:14.13 | levi-laptop | HTDP is used as a high school textbook for computer science, btw. |
| 16:15.18 | tene | what about "Given a right triangle, the square of the hypotenuse is the sum of the square of one leg and the square of the other leg"? |
| 16:16.05 | luminerd | can you get htdp in book format? |
| 16:16.18 | luminerd | tene, that's craziness to me |
| 16:16.27 | luminerd | I won't do well in programming if I am no good at math |
| 16:16.30 | tene | okay... |
| 16:16.34 | luminerd | and I always hated it to start too |
| 16:16.48 | Hhhhh | luminerd: well, maybe you should quit then |
| 16:16.56 | Hhhhh | luminerd: maybe programming isn't for you |
| 16:17.10 | tene | what about "The height of a person is the sum of the height of the person's legs and the rest of the person."? |
| 16:17.21 | levi-laptop | luminerd: You CAN be good at math if you decide you want to be, though. |
| 16:17.25 | luminerd | tene well duh, thats kindercrap |
| 16:17.33 | Hhhhh | luminerd: maybe you should go back to graphic design |
| 16:17.41 | tene | levi-laptop: if you decide that you want to be and are willing to work at it. |
| 16:17.51 | tene | luminerd: it's exactly the same. |
| 16:18.12 | luminerd | sure, minus all the technical terminology. |
| 16:18.19 | luminerd | I'm not going to go out and learn math. |
| 16:18.33 | luminerd | I'm just a graphic designer. that's all I can do |
| 16:18.44 | levi-laptop | You can do whatever you feel like working at. |
| 16:18.44 | tene | okay, that's fine then. |
| 16:18.59 | Hhhhh | luminerd: just a graphic designer? that's what my dad does |
| 16:19.01 | levi-laptop | If you just want to be a graphic designer, that's fine. The world needs graphic designers. |
| 16:19.10 | tene | lots of people have need and use for graphic designers. |
| 16:19.22 | tene | someone was talking about that in #edevelop a week or so ago |
| 16:19.30 | luminerd | Hhhhh: I'm not coming down on my own profession by any means! |
| 16:19.35 | tene | how there aren't enough around in the OSS community. |
| 16:19.37 | levi-laptop | Programmers need graphics designers, in fact. :) |
| 16:19.39 | luminerd | I'm just saying, I'm not going to make a good programmer |
| 16:19.44 | luminerd | I don't have the drive to learn it |
| 16:19.49 | Hhhhh | luminerd: i know, i'm just saying that graphic design is good |
| 16:20.11 | luminerd | eh, got to go to next period, tty guys later, I _still_ want to learn edje but maybe that's all I want to learn |
| 16:20.17 | luminerd | edje is made for graphic designers |
| 16:20.18 | luminerd | ttyl |
| 16:20.20 | tene | that'd be cool, then. |
| 16:20.23 | tene | later |
| 16:20.23 | Hhhhh | bye |
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| 16:20.30 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 16:20.35 | mrpull | hrrmmm.... /troll ? |
| 16:20.37 | Hhhhh | lol, that took long |
| 16:21.39 | Hhhhh | nah, he wasn't trolling, he was just a noob trying to decide what to do |
| 16:21.45 | tene | no, he's quite serious. |
| 16:21.55 | tene | he's been hanging around the e channels for a few days now |
| 16:22.12 | mrpull | interesting. he contradicts himself a lot :) |
| 16:22.23 | tene | yeah |
| 16:22.27 | tene | he's confused. |
| 16:22.28 | mrpull | i want to be a killer programmer! but I don't what to learn first! |
| 16:22.37 | Hhhhh | well, it's obvious that he doesn't have the drive to learn programming |
| 16:22.39 | mrpull | errr s/what/want/ |
| 16:22.39 | tene | well, I can understand that. |
| 16:23.05 | tene | Personally, I want to have great cooking skills, but I don't want to put in the time to learn them. |
| 16:23.12 | Hhhhh | hehe |
| 16:23.24 | levi-laptop | I want nunchuck skills. |
| 16:23.27 | tene | What's strange about that? |
| 16:23.31 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 16:23.36 | Hhhhh | napoleon dynamite |
| 16:23.56 | mrpull | tene: i hope you have fraction skillz... some recipes need to be doubled ;) |
| 16:24.25 | tene | I have m/-\d f|2ac7ion s|<illz |
| 16:24.51 | Hhhhh | I hate 1337 |
| 16:24.58 | mrpull | phew... there are too many aspiring cooks that don't want to learn math |
| 16:25.02 | Bradipo | mrpull: That's why recipies should be written in metric notation. |
| 16:25.25 | mrpull | i saw a cooking site for engineers once. I don't recall if he had everything in metric |
| 16:25.26 | tene | ... doubling is something that people can't handle? |
| 16:25.32 | Hhhhh | that's why we should use metric and drop the english system |
| 16:25.33 | Bradipo | Much easier to double 100 gr than 2/3 c. |
| 16:25.45 | tene | howso? |
| 16:26.20 | mrpull | tene: i'm just poking fun at our friend who wants to be a programmer, but doesn't want to employ any math |
| 16:26.28 | tene | Oh. |
| 16:26.30 | tene | 'kay. |
| 16:26.55 | mrpull | http://www.cookingforengineers.com/ |
| 16:27.05 | vontrapp | made some delicious ribs the other day, mmm |
| 16:27.09 | Bradipo | tene: Speaking from experience, I would much rather have recipies in metric than U.S. measurements. |
| 16:27.24 | vontrapp | i hate us measurements |
| 16:27.36 | vontrapp | all of them |
| 16:27.39 | Bradipo | What I don't understand is why we teach it in schools but nobody has a first clue about it if you ask them. |
| 16:28.10 | vontrapp | teaching people isn't going to do a darn thing |
| 16:28.20 | vontrapp | they have to USE it, EXPERIENCE it |
| 16:28.30 | tensai | and flour should always, *always* be measured in grams |
| 16:28.34 | vontrapp | they have to go 80 KM/h and feel it and know that it's 80 KM/h |
| 16:28.40 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, we teach reading and math in schools too, look how many people still don't know that |
| 16:29.00 | Jayce^ | tensai, it should always be measured by *weight* not volume :) |
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| 16:29.45 | vontrapp | yeah, if you're making lots of bread you might want to measure in kilograms |
| 16:29.54 | tensai | Jayce^: correct, and ounces are silly therefore grams are proper |
| 16:30.34 | tensai | vontrapp: conceded but my oven is not near big enough to bake 1kg worth of bread |
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| 16:32.31 | bonez39 | anyone know of a lookup, for say reverse lookup of street address? for business or personal? I know there are a ton of pay services, just wondering if any 'free' services exist? |
| 16:32.44 | Bradipo | Google? |
| 16:33.41 | bonez39 | Bradipo: I have searched google..lots of sites that will lead you along and then slam a payment form in front of you...10 bucks to get a name.... |
| 16:33.45 | Bradipo | vontrapp: Amen to experience.. |
| 16:33.57 | tensai | bonez39: I think he meant to google for the address |
| 16:33.59 | Bradipo | I have my scales set to metric and my wife just hates it. :-) |
| 16:34.05 | bonez39 | I guess I have grown too accustomed to finding everything else online gratis.... |
| 16:34.18 | bonez39 | tensai: I do.., but it won't give a name, or telephone |
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| 16:34.48 | bonez39 | tensai: gives a nice map...... |
| 16:34.48 | tensai | could you resort to the drive-there-and-see method? |
| 16:35.10 | bonez39 | oh, that's how I found the address..I am wanting to send them something and address it personally, ... |
| 16:35.31 | bonez39 | hell, I'll just send it and see if they respond.. |
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| 16:39.13 | goozbach | ~paint Jayce^ |
| 16:39.14 | ibot | ACTION rains a tape stream of paintballs on Jayce^ |
| 16:39.21 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 16:39.54 | goozbach | seeing as how I couldn't hit you this weekend I think that helps |
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| 16:41.03 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 16:41.13 | Jayce^ | you came close *once*, but failed :) |
| 16:41.31 | Jayce^ | you tell sjansen about your experience :) |
| 16:42.46 | goozbach | haven't had a chance yet |
| 16:45.46 | tensai | found a great cooking podcast. Good Food from KCRW Santa Monica. http://kcrw.org/podcast/show/gf |
| 16:49.40 | mheath|sparc | just started my emerge system |
| 16:49.53 | Jayce^ | poor thing |
| 16:50.22 | mheath|sparc | It should be done within the next 48 hours. =\ |
| 16:51.26 | mheath|sparc | O.o |
| 16:51.51 | mheath|sparc | configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables |
| 16:52.22 | mheath|sparc | bah, solaris it is |
| 16:52.31 | mheath|sparc | I'll get the CDs tomorrow... |
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| 17:17.21 | *** join/#utah tensai_ (~tensai@207.141.37.66) |
| 17:18.05 | levi-laptop | Heh. |
| 17:18.05 | *** join/#utah xilch (~xilch@c-67-166-119-0.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:18.16 | levi-laptop | You could probably get debian to work on it... ;) |
| 17:18.24 | *** join/#utah jlp (natted@c-24-2-96-137.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:18.25 | levi-laptop | But I'd go for Solaris. |
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| 17:32.38 | tensai | hans: boy, openvpn *is* easy to set up. I've got it running on my laptop now. I'll see if it can replace my ssh tunnel, which would be cool. |
| 17:33.48 | levi-laptop | Well, it's now been officially announced that Apple is moving to Intel chips. |
| 17:34.04 | fungus | x86 or not? |
| 17:34.11 | levi-laptop | Dunno. |
| 17:34.33 | fungus | where did you hear that? |
| 17:34.56 | fungus | nm, found it. |
| 17:34.57 | fungus | http://live.macobserver.com/article/2005/06/wwdc2005_keynote.shtml |
| 17:35.02 | levi-laptop | #scheme, where people are watching live IRC feeds from WWDC. |
| 17:37.27 | vontrapp | why would apple move to intel chips? |
| 17:38.10 | levi-laptop | Probably because IBM won't make a chip that'll be fast and work in an Apple laptop. |
| 17:38.25 | levi-laptop | And they haven't met their speed promises, either. |
| 17:38.49 | vontrapp | so... to get centrino technoligy, basically? |
| 17:39.50 | levi-laptop | Basically so Powerbooks can compete with Windows-based laptops. |
| 17:40.07 | vontrapp | but that means... you would be able to put windows on a mac! *gasp* oh the horror |
| 17:40.29 | levi-laptop | Ahh, apparently they'll be supporting both processors for some time to come. |
| 17:40.40 | levi-laptop | So, fat binaries all over again. |
| 17:41.03 | vontrapp | ah, sniffles |
| 17:41.17 | fungus | But I still haven't heard any confirmation if the intel chips will be x86 or not. |
| 17:43.28 | levi-laptop | Hmm. Mathematica took 2 hours to port. 20 lines of code. |
| 17:48.43 | levi-laptop | There's also an emulation layer to let PPC apps run on Intel Macs. |
| 17:54.22 | *** join/#utah gthornock (~garyt@host2.64-58-235.webaccess.net) |
| 17:54.42 | levi-laptop | Definitely x86. |
| 17:54.53 | levi-laptop | The developer machines are P4s. |
| 17:55.58 | tensai | darwin has long since run on x86, so I can't say I'm surprised |
| 17:58.34 | *** join/#utah lars-ut (~me@67.137.22.94) |
| 18:03.09 | tensai | cool. I found out how to record a phone call in Asterisk, so now I could host a podcast. who was it that was thinking of doing a #utah podcast? |
| 18:06.33 | goozbach | tensai: I think it'd be cool |
| 18:06.40 | goozbach | but what would be talk about? |
| 18:09.16 | fungus | Talk about ~lart, ~frenchtaunt, etc. |
| 18:10.48 | goozbach | ~frenchtaunt goozbach |
| 18:10.57 | ibot | ACTION summons the french taunter! goozbach is an English bedwetting type! |
| 18:11.14 | goozbach | heh I have not seen thatone |
| 18:16.14 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@66.89.175.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 18:19.04 | tensai | goozbach: that I don't know. I just volunteered to host it. |
| 18:21.20 | tensai | seems like it was uncle_jesse's idea |
| 18:34.41 | lars-ut | I just got a 1GB USB 2 flashdrive today - suggestions re: favorite distro for booting off flashdrives? |
| 18:36.24 | tensai | Debian. Are there really any other distros? |
| 18:36.56 | vontrapp | well, there is ubuntu, but it's basically debian |
| 18:37.09 | lars-ut | Knoppix runs off Debian also. |
| 18:37.37 | tapH20guru | DSL ain't bad for a samll USB drive |
| 18:37.50 | tapH20guru | s/samll/small |
| 18:38.02 | lars-ut | tensai: Which Debian have you used on a USB drive? |
| 18:38.34 | lars-ut | I've heard good things about DSL |
| 18:38.53 | lars-ut | slax also |
| 18:39.06 | tensai | I put potato on a Zip drive a long time ago. never actually put one on a usb. |
| 18:39.41 | tensai | my usb drive is on 32MB. hardly worth the effort. |
| 18:40.29 | mrpull | lars-ut: look at feather linux too |
| 18:40.39 | mrpull | i think it is a debian/knoppix derivitave |
| 18:40.48 | lars-ut | mrpull: will do |
| 18:41.45 | emcnabb | I tried INSERT linux the other day but had a ton of problems getting it on my keydrive |
| 18:42.23 | emcnabb | it works well though on UBCD |
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| 18:45.33 | lars-ut | Ideally, I'd like to be able to have a small distro, Knoppix 3.9, and WinPE available to be booted from the keydrive. |
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| 18:48.31 | mrpull | i bought a 1GB thumbdrive, played with it a few days.... got feather working well |
| 18:48.35 | mrpull | now it sits on my shelf |
| 18:49.07 | mrpull | the servers I bought it for, wouldn't boot off of it |
| 18:50.49 | lars-ut | even with a floppy? realizing that somewhat defeats the purpose... |
| 18:51.23 | lars-ut | I figure I'll be using this on all kinds of hardware. |
| 18:52.26 | lars-ut | mrpull: looks like there are 2 USB boot floppies available if the BIOS doesn't support booting off a USB device ( http://featherlinux.berlios.de/download.htm ) |
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| 18:55.23 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 18:56.29 | mrpull | a customer bought some cheapo servers w/o any removable media drives |
| 18:56.44 | mrpull | the plan was to boot from USB... ended up booting to a usb CDROM |
| 18:57.00 | mrpull | for whatever reason it wouldn't boot USB thumbdrives |
| 18:57.28 | lars-ut | icky |
| 18:58.00 | lars-ut | s/let's/lets |
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| 19:14.56 | *** part/#utah Oleg_ (~Oleg_@216.194.60.48) |
| 19:15.51 | Hhhhh | i'm back |
| 19:20.53 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 19:21.02 | levi-laptop | Whoa, it's sjansen. |
| 19:21.28 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:22.02 | sjansen | This release includes a number of up-to-date large softwarepackages, such as the K Desktop Environment 3.3 (KDE), the GNOMEdesktop environment 2.8, [...] XFree86 4.3.0 [...] |
| 19:22.02 | sjansen | *blink* *blink* |
| 19:22.50 | sjansen | levi-laptop: good seeing you |
| 19:22.56 | mrpull | that was brief |
| 19:23.04 | levi-laptop | Heh, yeah, that was sjansen all right. |
| 19:23.13 | levi-laptop | Just on for a brief bit of Debian-bashing. |
| 19:29.49 | lars-ut | levi-laptop: What distro do you suggest for a bootable USB flashdrive? |
| 19:30.18 | levi-laptop | lars-ut: Beats me. I've never looked into it. Whichever one works. |
| 19:35.43 | tensai | I wonder where sjansen got that from. I see the release on the mirrors but can't find mention of it anywhere. |
| 19:36.51 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: why not bash Gentoo users? it's more fun |
| 19:37.42 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: sjansen just has a long-standing hate of Debian. |
| 19:51.15 | levi-laptop | There could be, if you programmed in a signal handler to do it. |
| 19:54.35 | goozbach | another drive by sjansen'ing |
| 19:57.39 | tensai | vontrapp: try using postgresql. the psql client has that feature. :) |
| 20:12.09 | lars-ut | ~rss http://planet.debian.org/rss20.xml |
| 20:12.50 | lars-ut | tensai: there's a source for ya'. |
| 20:18.04 | mheath | Has anyone else here noticed huge inaccuracies in Google Map's map data? |
| 20:18.24 | mheath | So far (I've used it hardly at all) its tried to give me directions that have me go on a nonexistant road.... |
| 20:18.42 | mheath | And it places a park near my house about a quarter mile from its actual location |
| 20:22.27 | tensai | mheath: my house doesn't show up on google maps, but does on mapquest & yahoo. it's a 40 year old house too. |
| 20:24.18 | tensai | aha. here's probably where he cribbed it. http://people.debian.org/~joey/stuff/debian-announce.txt |
| 20:25.34 | tensai | and it just hit the debian front page too |
| 20:26.49 | levi-laptop | mheath: I've made the mistake twice of trying to get to places based on where google maps places its marker. |
| 20:27.19 | levi-laptop | mheath: It was horribly, horribly wrong both times, and I was too trusting to notice the obvious errors. |
| 20:29.38 | Jayce^ | I was surprised, it hit my grandmothers house (BFE montana) right on... |
| 20:36.00 | levi-laptop | I think the grid system confuses it. |
| 20:38.36 | hans | poor poor noob |
| 20:39.00 | hans | tensai: yes, it is. Didn't I say it was worth switching from an ssh tunnel? :) |
| 20:39.26 | hans | for the record, I think C is a great starting language. Just because C can do complicated stuff doesn't make C complicated. it's actually quite simple |
| 20:39.34 | hans | that's one area sjansen and I agree on |
| 20:39.43 | hans | the exception is of course strings and memory management |
| 20:40.06 | hans | but you can do a lot of basic programming before getting to either (using static strings) |
| 20:40.07 | tensai | hans: we'll see. the setup was pretty easy and I hope it'll work better because I can have a private IP behind my fw. |
| 20:40.36 | hans | A copy of Practical C would be a good starter for anyone looking to learn general purpose programming |
| 20:40.48 | hans | and starting with gui programming is definitely a bad IdeaTM |
| 20:43.37 | levi-laptop | hans: C could be approached from a fairly simple angle, but it gets opaque quickly for newbies. |
| 20:43.54 | levi-laptop | hans: Pointers would blow the mind of a graphics artist. |
| 20:45.13 | levi-laptop | C isn't simple, it's just small. |
| 20:46.07 | levi-laptop | I think it's great to learn C early on, but I don't think it's the best as an intro to programming language. |
| 20:47.41 | Hhhhh | lol, you guys still talking about luminerd? |
| 20:47.54 | Hhhhh | I agree with levi-laptop |
| 20:47.55 | levi-laptop | Hey, hans brought it back up. |
| 20:48.06 | dataw0lf|w | I think C is a great starting language, for both arguments. |
| 20:48.11 | Hhhhh | it's not the best language for a computer programming intro course |
| 20:48.22 | Hhhhh | but it's nothing that should scare people |
| 20:48.41 | dataw0lf|w | if a programmer learns proper memory management early in the game, the baby Jesus is happy. |
| 20:48.48 | Hhhhh | for that dude, he wanted to end up doing C, so that's why I recommended starting with C |
| 20:48.50 | mrpull | <show of hands> how many people here got started by tinkering with some sort of BASIC? |
| 20:48.56 | Hhhhh | me |
| 20:48.58 | levi-laptop | I did. |
| 20:49.13 | levi-laptop | Now BASIC... that was simple. |
| 20:49.17 | Hhhhh | lol, yea |
| 20:49.29 | Hhhhh | but I would not recomend getting involved in VB.NET |
| 20:49.35 | mrpull | so we learned conditionals and loops and other core concepts before we moved to c / pascal / etc |
| 20:49.40 | levi-laptop | Well, Visual Basic is not simple. |
| 20:49.59 | Hhhhh | I think C# makes a good language for a college CS intro class |
| 20:50.07 | levi-laptop | Pascal is also pretty simple. |
| 20:50.10 | mrpull | i'd say python or some other high level language would be best to teach those fundamentals |
| 20:50.32 | Hhhhh | python also could be good, or ruby |
| 20:50.35 | mrpull | intro classes shouldn't talk about memory management and GC |
| 20:50.42 | dataw0lf|w | I started with C, haven't even learned a BASIC to be honest. |
| 20:50.44 | Hhhhh | but I'm sorry but I don't think that lisp-like languages would |
| 20:50.52 | Hhhhh | or perl |
| 20:51.11 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: If you haven't learned anything else, the Scheme syntax wouldn't seem odd. |
| 20:51.18 | mrpull | dataw0lf: you didn't have any exposure to progamming before c? |
| 20:51.24 | dataw0lf|w | mrpull: Nope. |
| 20:51.49 | Hhhhh | yes, but for newbies, switching from lisp to something else would be hard, and I think that learning lisp for newbies would already be quite a task |
| 20:51.53 | mrpull | i suppose hello world in C is less complex than java |
| 20:52.18 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: The 'How To Design Programs' people are having pretty good success with it in high schools. |
| 20:52.20 | Hhhhh | I like functional languages but I don't think they're a good choice for a intro class |
| 20:52.47 | dataw0lf|w | my parents got me the K&R for Christmas when I was 13. I spent 3 months just reading it, then got a shell account at my Mom's university and hacked away with cc. |
| 20:52.52 | mrpull | i think functional makes sense to teach fundamentals like conditionals and loops |
| 20:52.55 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: The students who start with Scheme and move to C++ for the AP exams tend to do better than those who just did C++. |
| 20:53.03 | mrpull | OOP is a lot to swallow |
| 20:53.12 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: that doesn't convince me |
| 20:53.25 | Hhhhh | i've dealt with n00bs a loty |
| 20:53.28 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: What would convince you? |
| 20:53.54 | Hhhhh | nothing really, maybe some credible results would but I doubt I'd see any |
| 20:54.11 | Hhhhh | I could also report a lot of success with Java or C# as starting language |
| 20:54.12 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: Well, that's not a very open-minded approach. |
| 20:54.14 | dataw0lf|w | so you're saying it's moot for you even to be discussing it. |
| 20:54.38 | Hhhhh | i am open-minded, but I really think that lisp would be overkill |
| 20:55.24 | Hhhhh | it's not a secret that I don't like Lisp, but I would not say it is a bad language |
| 20:55.33 | Hhhhh | it is good, I've seen incredible stuff done with it |
| 20:55.36 | hans | lisp is cool, but if so many of us have a hard time migrating _to_ lisp I don't see how a newb is going to have an easy time migrating from it |
| 20:55.53 | dataw0lf|w | Agreed. |
| 20:56.01 | Hhhhh | but I am convinced that it is not a good option for CS intro classes |
| 20:56.01 | levi-laptop | hans: As I said, in the classroom trials, it wasn't a big problem. |
| 20:56.02 | dataw0lf|w | C == best programming language for a newbie, imho. |
| 20:56.36 | Hhhhh | C is a good starting point, it is kind of a big jump but I guess OOP is also a big dive-in |
| 20:56.38 | levi-laptop | hans: The students who had Scheme + C++ did, on the whole, at least as well as the kids who just did C++. |
| 20:56.56 | Hhhhh | I think C#, Java, C, ruby and python make good optionhs |
| 20:56.58 | dataw0lf|w | I think you should start them off with a strong procedural base, then move em onto OOP. |
| 20:57.06 | Hhhhh | I agree with that too |
| 20:57.16 | dataw0lf|w | Python would be my second choice as a newbie programming language. |
| 20:57.26 | dataw0lf|w | I can't comment on C#, having never done any development in it. |
| 20:57.35 | dataw0lf|w | But I think Java would be a terrible starting language. |
| 20:57.36 | Hhhhh | you need some procedural, after all OOP is a paradigm that organizes code but what's inside of a method is procedural |
| 20:57.59 | Hhhhh | java isn't as bad, personally I don't think java has a lot of future other than server stuff |
| 20:58.03 | hans | this will sound old fashioned, but I think pascal is a good starter |
| 20:58.06 | Hhhhh | I'd go for C# |
| 20:58.07 | levi-laptop | Python would be pretty high on my list. |
| 20:58.08 | hans | for a month or two |
| 20:58.11 | dataw0lf|w | Pascal isn't a bad starter. |
| 20:58.16 | Hhhhh | maybe engineers would profit more by starting with C |
| 20:58.19 | hans | then jump to C (if C or C++ is your end destination) |
| 20:58.20 | levi-laptop | hans: I don't think Pascal is a bad starter, either. |
| 20:58.31 | Hhhhh | Pascal is a bit too old, and Delphi is going nowhere |
| 20:58.32 | tapH20guru | Python is my vote (if we're keeping score) |
| 20:58.40 | Hhhhh | python is ok, yea |
| 20:58.43 | dataw0lf|w | I love Python. |
| 20:58.44 | hans | c# might be ok, if it weren't such a pain to set up the enviro |
| 20:58.57 | hans | ruby of course is great, but then you'd never be satisfied with another language. ;-) |
| 20:59.01 | tapH20guru | ruby? :) |
| 20:59.05 | dataw0lf|w | pfft. |
| 20:59.08 | dataw0lf|w | Python > Ruby ;) |
| 20:59.09 | Hhhhh | hans: don't hate me, but I think MS VC# isn't a bad idea |
| 20:59.18 | hans | if you can afford it |
| 20:59.20 | tapH20guru | VB anyone? :) |
| 20:59.28 | levi-laptop | No, not VB. |
| 20:59.31 | tapH20guru | lol |
| 20:59.31 | Hhhhh | hmm, VB is going nowhere either |
| 20:59.33 | hans | but if the end destination is C I probably wouldn't say ruby |
| 20:59.37 | mrpull | my only gripe with ruby is it has some of perl's shortcut mentality |
| 20:59.49 | hans | mrpull: like what? |
| 20:59.52 | levi-laptop | Why should any particular language be the 'end destination'? |
| 21:00.05 | hans | for us, it wouldn't |
| 21:00.06 | hans | for some, it is |
| 21:00.10 | levi-laptop | The 'end destination' should be competency with CS concepts. |
| 21:00.18 | hans | like that guy - he had pretty specific goals |
| 21:00.35 | Hhhhh | it shouldn't but if newbies learn something that is very useful right from the start I think it is better than learning something like Cobol or forth "just for the concepts" |
| 21:00.55 | tapH20guru | Hhhhh: amen |
| 21:00.59 | mrpull | hans: my previous statement sounds worth than I meant |
| 21:01.08 | dataw0lf|w | Hm, I think the end destination is 'as far away from Java as possible' |
| 21:01.09 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: yes, that is the main goal, but if you can teach some pratcical thing on the way that's a nice plus |
| 21:01.11 | dataw0lf|w | at least for me. |
| 21:01.12 | dataw0lf|w | ;) |
| 21:01.17 | hans | well I didn't take it as an attack, but I'm curious what you mean |
| 21:01.18 | Hhhhh | java isn't as bad |
| 21:01.27 | dataw0lf|w | can't stand it. |
| 21:01.28 | Hhhhh | i don't like it much but it's not terrible |
| 21:01.31 | hans | I know it supports a lot of perlisms, but I don't think it encourages shortcuts a la $_ |
| 21:01.32 | dataw0lf|w | I get sick just looking at the code. |
| 21:01.34 | Hhhhh | again, i'd go for C# anytime |
| 21:01.35 | tapH20guru | asp.net anyone? :) |
| 21:01.41 | mrpull | hans: it is less verbose than python... |
| 21:01.44 | Hhhhh | huh? |
| 21:01.51 | Hhhhh | asp.NET is a technology, not a language |
| 21:01.55 | hans | because you don't have to pass self? ;-) |
| 21:02.07 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: Well, if competency with programming concepts isn't practical, then the future of software is doomede. |
| 21:02.11 | Hhhhh | you can do C#, C++, VB.NET or other languages with ASP.NET |
| 21:02.14 | levi-laptop | Gah, I can't type today. |
| 21:02.22 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: i didn't say that >:( |
| 21:02.24 | tapH20guru | asp is a scripting language.. |
| 21:02.38 | Hhhhh | asp isn't a scripting language either, it is a technology as well |
| 21:02.49 | Hhhhh | the scripting language for ASP is either VBscript or Jscript |
| 21:02.53 | hans | levi-laptop: I would be very interested in watching someone start from ground 0 with lisp and then go to other languages |
| 21:03.05 | hans | problem is I know so very few people that want to learn to program at all |
| 21:03.23 | tapH20guru | so what is the webscripting language from MS that is like JSP / PHP called? |
| 21:03.37 | hans | asp |
| 21:03.38 | dataw0lf|w | hans: well, the problem nowadays is more people are learning ANY sort of technology for the degree rather than the 'love' of it. |
| 21:03.41 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: what i mean is that the focus should be competency with programming concepts, but teaching some marketable skill on the way is a plus |
| 21:03.45 | dataw0lf|w | tis a shame. |
| 21:03.52 | tapH20guru | yup... asp is a lang |
| 21:03.56 | dataw0lf|w | if I didn't have a job... I'd be doing the same thing. |
| 21:04.01 | Hhhhh | asp is not a lang |
| 21:04.03 | hans | it's not as bad now as it was when I was a freshman |
| 21:04.07 | Hhhhh | ... |
| 21:04.09 | hans | since the bubble popped |
| 21:04.22 | dataw0lf|w | hans: yeah, but I still see alot of it. |
| 21:04.27 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: Programming itself is a marketable skill. Focus on a particular language hampers ability to move along with the latest programming fads. |
| 21:04.28 | hans | but you could sure tell the difference between the guys in CS for the money and the guys (and gals) in it because they liked it |
| 21:04.54 | tapH20guru | Hhhhh: http://www.sitepoint.com/article/asp-language-basics |
| 21:04.55 | dataw0lf|w | hans: agreed. |
| 21:05.01 | Hhhhh | tapH20guru: a webscripting language made by M$ would be VBscript or Jscript |
| 21:05.31 | Hhhhh | lol! read the heading, it exactly confrims what i'm saying |
| 21:05.46 | Hhhhh | "One unique feature of ASP is that it lets you choose your favourite scripting language, be it JavaScript or VBScript; however, VBScript is by far the most popular choice." |
| 21:05.57 | Hhhhh | thanks for proving my point |
| 21:06.01 | tapH20guru | well I'll be a monkey's uncle |
| 21:06.03 | hans | shows how much asp I know. ;-) |
| 21:06.09 | tapH20guru | first time for everything: I'm worng |
| 21:06.21 | hans | tapH20guru: at least you weren't wrong about tapwater |
| 21:07.05 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: I am not disagreeing with you, but I think that choosing a language that is used more widely is definetely a big plus |
| 21:07.07 | tapH20guru | if there's one thing I know... it's tap water |
| 21:07.30 | Hhhhh | the focus of a CS degree is not learning languages, I know that |
| 21:07.39 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: I think learning those languages is a good thing, but I don't think they are best suitede to taking the first steps. |
| 21:07.40 | hans | so, who's depressed by apple's announcement? |
| 21:07.49 | Hhhhh | but learning a language for which there is a good job market is benefiting your students even more |
| 21:07.56 | hans | it's like x86 is a big black hole |
| 21:08.02 | Hhhhh | why not C#? |
| 21:08.16 | Hhhhh | or python? |
| 21:08.17 | Hhhhh | or C? |
| 21:08.19 | tapH20guru | I can't wait for the pirated x86 copies of Tiger to circulate |
| 21:08.20 | dataw0lf|w | hans: doesn't really matter, Apple will be burning the flames of Hell eventually. |
| 21:08.21 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: How many are going to take just one class, and be ready to hit the job market then? |
| 21:08.29 | tapH20guru | ooops... did I say that outloud? |
| 21:08.35 | dataw0lf|w | at least I won't have to build ppc packages then. |
| 21:08.55 | hans | as I understand it, it's just the processor. bios, etc. will be different from PCs |
| 21:09.13 | Hhhhh | all I can say is this: I learned java in my first CS class and I considered it a good head start (things have changed now, I'd go for C#) |
| 21:09.18 | hans | so you'd have to run it in that os x emulator program that will surely be ported quickly |
| 21:09.23 | Hhhhh | i was able to use java for work projects |
| 21:09.32 | Hhhhh | but that was the time of the java hype anyways |
| 21:09.46 | hans | java would be a good start if it weren't for things like System.out.pringtln |
| 21:10.03 | hans | see, I've typed that I don't know how many times, and I still made a mistake. |
| 21:10.18 | levi-laptop | I'm taking a Java class now, and I'm surprised at all the really bizarre quirks it's got in its syntax now. |
| 21:10.34 | Hhhhh | come on, it isn't that bad |
| 21:10.34 | hans | and errors like "null pointer" which make no sense to anyone without a C background |
| 21:10.58 | hans | so you have students thrashing around making random changes to make these cryptic error messages go away |
| 21:11.20 | Hhhhh | hmm, most of them came to us the TAs |
| 21:11.34 | levi-laptop | Well, basic Java isn't bad at all. It's just getting complicated in its extremities. |
| 21:11.37 | Hhhhh | and they rather quickly learned what NullPointerException meant |
| 21:11.50 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: that's true and I won't argue it |
| 21:11.54 | hans | the learned how to fix a null pointer exception |
| 21:12.07 | hans | but did they learn what it meant? (eventually, I'm sure) |
| 21:12.15 | Hhhhh | that's why I don't think java has much future, except maybe in server technology |
| 21:12.49 | levi-laptop | hans; Here's some info on people who are using How To Design Programs to teach intro to CS: http://home.adelphi.edu/sbloch/class/hs/testimonials/ |
| 21:13.19 | Hhhhh | but the market for C# has grown a lot, so teaching the basics on that language is a good service for the students |
| 21:14.00 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: I'm not arguing against teaching C# or Java or whatever. But students will be able to learn much more of those particular languages if they know the basics of programming first. |
| 21:14.50 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: true, but they will be able to learn them as well if you use C# for the assignments in your CS intro class too |
| 21:15.18 | Hhhhh | also, levi-laptop, I read a bit on one of the FAQs on the site you gave me and it was an infomercial |
| 21:15.24 | Hhhhh | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:15.25 | Hhhhh | That's because many Scheme jobs are hired through networking or are listed by other names (well-trained Scheme programmers are ready almost immediately for jobs that use Erlang, Dylan, Common Lisp, and with a little more preparation, Smalltalk and Java). Scheme does see active use at numerous places including Intel, Motorola, Silicon Graphics, Microsoft and Disney's animation studios. Related languages are used for diverse real-world use |
| 21:15.29 | Hhhhh | please |
| 21:15.56 | Hhhhh | i'm sure that for each Scheme job there are 100 C jobs, 60 Java jobs and 90 C# jobs |
| 21:16.07 | levi-laptop | So? That wasn't my point. |
| 21:16.08 | Hhhhh | i'm sorry to doubt the credibility of the article |
| 21:16.22 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: I never claimed there were a lot of Scheme jobs. |
| 21:17.29 | Hhhhh | also, the article "Teaching programming to a nine-year-old" is going to make me cry |
| 21:17.52 | Hhhhh | it's very cute |
| 21:18.12 | Hhhhh | High school math teacher Karen North, after participating in the 1997 TeachScheme! workshop, did a controlled (though not, of course, double-blind) experiment. She taught two sections of pre-AP CS simultaneously: one in C++, the language used on the AP CS exam, and one in Scheme until nearly the end of the year. She comments: |
| 21:18.12 | Hhhhh | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:18.12 | Hhhhh | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:18.16 | Hhhhh | pfff |
| 21:18.35 | Hhhhh | i'm sorry but all of this is very unsubstantial |
| 21:18.58 | Hhhhh | "...and my students that learned Scheme first write better programs than those who learned C++..." |
| 21:19.23 | Hhhhh | please, tell me honestly if I can take this seriously without simply trying to force things |
| 21:19.33 | Newsome | That's not an argument _for_ Scheme. That's an argument _against_ C++ |
| 21:20.05 | Hhhhh | nope! the whole point of the site is to prove that Scheme is better for teaching basics |
| 21:20.24 | Hhhhh | I think C++ might be a little of an overkill for an intro class as well |
| 21:20.44 | levi-laptop | It's not out to 'prove' anything. It's offering testimonials and opinion. |
| 21:20.57 | levi-laptop | Notice they are labeled 'testimonials'. |
| 21:21.10 | Newsome | Like I said, it merely showed that Scheme is better than C++. That doesn't particularly speak to the merits of Scheme. |
| 21:21.20 | Hhhhh | so what's the point then? Scheme is better than other languages because of testimonials? |
| 21:21.54 | Hhhhh | Newsome: mind, C++ is my favorite language but I also don't think is the best for CS intro |
| 21:22.07 | levi-laptop | The point is, in real-world environments, it worked reasonably well. |
| 21:22.09 | Hhhhh | so I won't bother answering that possible flame |
| 21:22.24 | Hhhhh | levi-laptop: C#, java, and others work reasonably well as well |
| 21:22.49 | Hhhhh | AND there is more demand for them |
| 21:22.52 | levi-laptop | Hhhhh: I didn't say they didn't! |
| 21:23.07 | levi-laptop | It's just my opinion that Scheme is a better option. |
| 21:23.25 | Hhhhh | all right, you're entitled to your opinion |
| 21:23.34 | Hhhhh | though I disagree |
| 21:23.38 | levi-laptop | And the testimonials show that there's at least some evidence that it's a viable option. |
| 21:29.54 | levi-laptop | I'm more interested in hearing hans's opinion than Hhhhh's derisive comments, though. |
| 21:33.48 | hans | levi-laptop: in 8 years when my boy wants to learn to program, I'll let you know. :) or if I manage to find someone else who wants to learn (or convince my wife to) |
| 21:34.35 | hans | I think starting in lisp would be good for the theory, which would explain the "better programs" in C++ |
| 21:34.58 | hans | might be a great starting point for someone looking at CS |
| 21:35.04 | mrpull | http://www.aventure-apple.com/chrono/datachrono/welcomeibm.html |
| 21:35.54 | hans | for a graphics designer who wants to use gui builders to make l33t graphics programs in C without learning any math, I think it would be a dead end |
| 21:36.21 | mrpull | flash is his friend |
| 21:38.20 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 21:38.53 | levi-laptop | The whole reason I like HTDP is not the fact that it's lisp, but that there's practically no complex syntax and it's got a learning-centered implementation. DrScheme has got some great tools to help students understand what's going on in their programs. The tools get out of the way, and let the students focus on what the course is about. |
| 21:39.11 | levi-laptop | If such an environment were set up around Python, I'd be quick to recommend that as well. |
| 21:40.11 | levi-laptop | Though I think Python has got an unavoidably higher level of syntax to cover before getting into the actual programming. It may not be significant in practice. |
| 21:40.25 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 21:58.45 | fungus | http://stream.apple.akadns.net/ |
| 22:05.52 | levi-laptop | Me either. But I assume Jobs has done some serious thinking about it. |
| 22:06.32 | levi-laptop | The processor that runs my Mac isn't really all that relevant to my use of it. |
| 22:07.44 | mheath | Just remember.... |
| 22:07.58 | mheath | When they switched from Motorola 68k to PPC, they had a really hard time |
| 22:08.05 | mheath | they barely surived that |
| 22:08.09 | mheath | *survived |
| 22:08.14 | mheath | But they survived :) |
| 22:13.35 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:13.45 | goozbach | maybe I shouldn't have skipped lunch today |
| 22:13.54 | hans | ~smack goozbach |
| 22:13.55 | ibot | ACTION smacks goozbach upside the head. |
| 22:13.57 | hans | i already had dinner |
| 22:14.44 | goozbach | $FEMALE[0] is making me dinner tonight |
| 22:14.58 | goozbach | so I'm not worried about not eating |
| 22:15.04 | goozbach | I'll get good dinner that's for sure |
| 22:15.13 | Jayce^ | ~lart goozbach's problems |
| 22:15.22 | mheath | $FEMALE[0] ? What language is that? |
| 22:15.38 | Jayce^ | works in perl, dunno why he used caps though |
| 22:15.39 | hans | perlnecklace |
| 22:15.47 | mheath | Bah, perl. |
| 22:16.08 | mheath | All I could ever need :) |
| 22:16.15 | Jayce^ | mheath, just like C, just the sigil |
| 22:16.25 | mheath | well yeah |
| 22:16.31 | goozbach | BASh |
| 22:17.01 | goozbach | least I think so |
| 22:17.12 | mheath | Its been too long since I've done BASH. I was thinking for some reason that it didn't support arrays like that |
| 22:17.27 | mheath | Then again, as I said, its been ages and I never did much with it anyway. |
| 22:17.30 | goozbach | and all caps is kinda a standard |
| 22:18.05 | hans | who needs bash when you can write shell scripts in C and Java, after all |
| 22:18.43 | spr | well, since bash is already running, it's a bit faster |
| 22:18.47 | goozbach | man bash and search for arrays |
| 22:18.59 | mheath | hans: hey, theres shells out there that have C-like syntax! |
| 22:19.19 | mheath | csh! |
| 22:19.43 | mheath | tcsh! |
| 22:19.44 | Jayce^ | ewww |
| 22:19.50 | dataw0lf|w | yech. |
| 22:19.51 | spr | bleah. Didn't care for it much. |
| 22:19.53 | levi-laptop | hans: There's also scsh. :) |
| 22:19.57 | mheath | Hah, I'm not defending them |
| 22:20.02 | Jayce^ | too bad sjansen isn't in here to beat you for even mentioning them |
| 22:20.04 | mheath | just rebuting hans sarcastic comment :D |
| 22:24.40 | hans | I'm not the one who said C and Java are all I'll ever need. :) |
| 22:25.04 | mheath | You need a shell. |
| 22:25.13 | mheath | C can replicate anything you could do with shell scripting, anyway. |
| 22:25.20 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@66.89.175.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:25.22 | dataw0lf|w | s/Java/Python |
| 22:25.27 | mheath | Ugh |
| 22:25.27 | hans | 16:16 * mheath hugs his Java and C |
| 22:25.27 | hans | 16:16 < mheath> All I could ever need :) |
| 22:25.37 | mheath | I meant for programming purposes |
| 22:25.39 | mheath | Obviously |
| 22:25.46 | dataw0lf|w | Anyone who says ugh to Python and uses Java, well, I'm highly suspicious. |
| 22:25.55 | hans | you're welcome to do shell scripting in C. too cumbersome for me though |
| 22:25.56 | mheath | I used to hate Java, actually |
| 22:26.07 | mheath | But I fell in love with it after using it in my programming class for about a year |
| 22:26.16 | dataw0lf|w | I don't care what you used to do, feel, whatever, you have been brainwashed by fools. |
| 22:26.19 | mheath | Maybe they brainwashed me or something |
| 22:26.22 | mheath | hahaa, yeah |
| 22:26.23 | dataw0lf|w | exactly. |
| 22:26.36 | mheath | I'm just waiting for a free JRE =\ |
| 22:26.38 | dataw0lf|w | the whole point of bash is not to use C. You go ahead and do your scripts in C. |
| 22:26.45 | mheath | well, open source JRE |
| 22:27.20 | hans | go ahead and say "Free JRE", we all speak Stallman here |
| 22:27.42 | mheath | haha |
| 22:27.49 | mheath | I'm not sure if thats a good thing or not :D |
| 22:28.03 | dataw0lf|w | you've never seen Stallman speak, I take it. |
| 22:28.48 | mheath | No. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy and agree with his views on almost everything. |
| 22:28.50 | dataw0lf|w | dressed up as a priest of free software. |
| 22:28.56 | dataw0lf|w | he's pretty silly looking. |
| 22:29.09 | mheath | Sait iGNUcias |
| 22:29.12 | mheath | *Saint |
| 22:29.16 | *** join/#utah xilch|w (~xilch@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:29.29 | dataw0lf|w | ESR > Stallman |
| 22:29.31 | dataw0lf|w | I love ESR. |
| 22:29.40 | mheath | IGNUcius* |
| 22:29.40 | xilch|w | meh |
| 22:29.53 | dataw0lf|w | meh to you. |
| 22:29.53 | xilch|w | catb is for suckers |
| 22:29.57 | xilch|w | ;) |
| 22:30.02 | mheath | http://www.stallman.org/saintignucius.jpg is that what you were refering to, dataw0lf? |
| 22:30.21 | vontrapp | :( firefox froze on me |
| 22:30.35 | dataw0lf|w | mheath: something like that, I just remember him looking like an idiot when I attended Purdue and he came for a lecture. |
| 22:31.18 | mheath | He's apparently rather rude/upfront and has very bad manors, from what I've read |
| 22:31.28 | mheath | I read an article about a group being blown away by a lecture he did for them... |
| 22:31.41 | mheath | But they never wanted him back, because of their experience eating dinner with him |
| 22:31.49 | hans | I wouldln't look a gift manor in the mouth though. If someone gave me a manor, I woudln't mind if it were bad |
| 22:32.01 | mheath | *manners |
| 22:32.06 | mheath | I've been doing that a lot lately |
| 22:32.27 | levi-laptop | hans: Well, excepting situations such as that depicted in 'The Money Pit', I would agree. :) |
| 22:33.05 | mheath | One thing thats really bothered me is the FSFs view on software patents |
| 22:33.27 | mheath | While I HATE bad patents (ones that are too broad, ones that theres prior work for, one that the company didn't really 'develop', etc) |
| 22:33.47 | mheath | Apparently the FSF feels that Patents in general are bad, and there can be no good patents |
| 22:33.58 | hans | I tend to agree, for software |
| 22:34.27 | mheath | Well, I believe that things should be put into the public domain, so everyone can benefit from them |
| 22:34.49 | mheath | But I also believe that businesses have a right to do what they want and make money how they want with technologies they ligitimately develop |
| 22:35.15 | hans | that's a pretty broad license, to make money "how they want" |
| 22:36.02 | mheath | hans: well, in this context, by "how they want" I mean they should be free, if they want, to charge for its distribution or licensing, use, limit its use, etc. |
| 22:36.25 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (~emcnabb@66.89.175.2.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:37.56 | mheath | And you can feel free to think how you want on the issue |
| 22:38.24 | hans | naturally. you meant, 'how they want that fits in with the legal/ethical structure' |
| 22:38.26 | mheath | But I've dealt with many FSF fans, and official members of the FSF too, who get pissed off when they hear my opinon |
| 22:38.33 | mheath | hans: well, of course. |
| 22:39.05 | hans | and so I ask you, what if you believe that it is unethical to restrict the ability for somebody to do something the same way you do it? |
| 22:41.21 | mheath | We live in a capitalist society. The sucess of our overall society and economy is based on the the idea that the better products you have to offer, the more money you make. |
| 22:41.40 | hans | yup |
| 22:41.42 | mheath | Without patents, no one can sell anything thats any better than anyone else. |
| 22:41.59 | hans | and last time I took a college-level economics course, monopolies were bad for a capatalist society |
| 22:42.15 | hans | of course they can |
| 22:42.44 | mheath | Let me use this example |
| 22:42.45 | hans | but I agree patents, while an imperfect instrument, serve a purpose |
| 22:42.59 | mheath | Stain removers for clothing |
| 22:43.06 | Bradipo | hans: Correction, government sponsored monopolies are bad for a capitalist society. |
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| 22:43.21 | mheath | Someones going to come out with a revolutionary stain removal technique |
| 22:43.23 | hans | no, monopolies are a market failure in any form. |
| 22:43.30 | Bradipo | I disagree. :-) |
| 22:43.33 | mheath | If theres no patents, every other company is free to replicate that technique |
| 22:43.35 | Hhhhh | it'sI have to agree on that one, monopolies hinder free market |
| 22:43.46 | mheath | Now, Company X just poured there money into developing this technique |
| 22:43.51 | hans | Bradipo: that's fine, but it's a technical definition in economics. |
| 22:43.54 | mheath | But, Company X can't profit from it |
| 22:43.58 | Hhhhh | I feel that monopolies and cartels are sopme of the few cases in which I would want the govn't getting involved in the market |
| 22:43.59 | Bradipo | If I happen to like a particular brand, and so to thousands of others, which results in one company gaining a monopoly, then that is what people have chosen. |
| 22:44.10 | Bradipo | No company starts out as a monopoly unless it is government sponsored. |
| 22:44.12 | Hhhhh | patents are wrong, copyrights are good |
| 22:44.23 | Hhhhh | Bradipo: I don't know about that |
| 22:44.29 | mheath | Because the consumer has no reason to choose Company X's product, over Company Y's product |
| 22:44.44 | Bradipo | And if the product is so good that they have a monopoly, then other entrepeneurs will see the chance to take some of their market share by improving the product and offering it at a lower price. |
| 22:44.54 | mheath | A lack of patents in a predominantly Capitalist economy drastically slows progress. |
| 22:44.57 | mheath | Its as simple as that. |
| 22:45.13 | Bradipo | Its when the entrepeneurs are not allowed to compete due to governmental regulations that a monopoly is bad. |
| 22:45.45 | hans | when one product is the forerunner because of quality, I don't call it a monopoly |
| 22:45.49 | Bradipo | I personally think that forcing Microsoft to give up their proprietary code in the name of ``anti-trust'' is wrong. |
| 22:45.59 | Hhhhh | mheath: patents hinder progress because it simply means that for a certain amount of time, one_and_one_only is all-powerful owner of an idea |
| 22:46.10 | Hhhhh | no free market competition is allowed |
| 22:46.11 | mheath | Hhhhh: well |
| 22:46.11 | hans | when people are unable to choose, that is a monopoly. |
| 22:46.21 | Bradipo | But why wouldn't they be able to choose? |
| 22:46.21 | mheath | You can be as big of a fan of Open Source software as you want to be |
| 22:46.41 | Hhhhh | hans: no, monopoly is when one or a few companies have the power to set the prices instead of leaving it to supply/demand |
| 22:46.43 | hans | mheath: there's no skirting it, patents are a way to hold off the free market |
| 22:46.48 | mheath | But the point is most research for most technologies in this world comes from commercial businesses. |
| 22:46.55 | mheath | Now |
| 22:46.56 | hans | Hhhhh is correct |
| 22:47.00 | Bradipo | Is there a law that says that company X cannot build a product similar to monopoly Y and compete? |
| 22:47.06 | Hhhhh | mheath: and they have all the right to keep their findings secret |
| 22:47.24 | Hhhhh | mheath: but the govn't doesn't have to protect their butts |
| 22:47.36 | mheath | Uh |
| 22:47.41 | hans | Bradipo: it's like hhhhhhhh says, when the monopoly can control prices because of lack of competition, it is a market failure (highest efficiency not reached) |
| 22:47.49 | mheath | So you support "patents" just not government regulated patents? |
| 22:47.50 | Bradipo | If so, then I would agree that the monopoly is unjust, but then it is sanctioned by the government. |
| 22:47.54 | mheath | That just leads to non-regulation |
| 22:47.58 | mheath | and leaks |
| 22:48.00 | Bradipo | hans: Again, government intervention is the key here... |
| 22:48.00 | Hhhhh | no, I don't support patents, I support copyrights |
| 22:48.03 | hans | there's almost always costs associated with entering as competition |
| 22:48.13 | hans | Bradipo: how is gov intervention key? |
| 22:48.15 | mheath | <Hhhhh> mheath: and they have all the right to keep their findings secret |
| 22:48.25 | Bradipo | RIght, there are costs, but an entrepeneur accepts those costs. |
| 22:48.43 | Bradipo | And willingly takes them on to get part of what is happening in the market. |
| 22:48.45 | mheath | The end result of keeping a technology secret accomplishes the same thing as patents. |
| 22:48.45 | hans | I didn't mention the government at all |
| 22:48.47 | Hhhhh | mheath: yes, secret by being secretive, not by some dumb law saying "you can't do that because he called first" |
| 22:48.59 | vontrapp | mheath: exactly, so why do we need patents? |
| 22:49.00 | Bradipo | hans: Sorry, others have, and indeed I did. |
| 22:49.05 | mheath | "he called first"? |
| 22:49.08 | Hhhhh | yes |
| 22:49.11 | mheath | I already said, I hate DUMB PATENTS |
| 22:49.14 | Hhhhh | patents are nothing more like that |
| 22:49.18 | xilch|w | we need patents to spur innovation, evidently |
| 22:49.20 | mheath | I don't like it when some company creates some generic, broad patent |
| 22:49.24 | mheath | or one that theres prior work for |
| 22:49.25 | Bradipo | And just because the costs are high, does not mean that a company cannot compete. |
| 22:49.25 | Hhhhh | well, ok, then let me give you an example |
| 22:49.41 | mheath | But when a company puts hard earned money into developing a specific, advanced technology... |
| 22:49.54 | mheath | I have no problem with them controlling the use of that technology. |
| 22:49.56 | hans | Bradipo: whether a monopoly is gov-supported or not, it is a monopoly and market ineffeciency (aka high prices) are the result. |
| 22:50.19 | Hhhhh | mheath: Maquis made the point one day when she said that her dad told her that some companies patented some medical technologies that would allow doctors to save more lives, but because of some patent law, doctors can't use them |
| 22:50.29 | Bradipo | If, on the other hand, a company cannot compete because the monopoly is government sponsored (i.e. it is illegal for a company x to produce what company y is producing) then I would agree that a monopoly is wrong. But it was only wrong because the government made it so. |
| 22:50.36 | mheath | <vontrapp> mheath: exactly, so why do we need patents? <-- Because lack of regulation leads to mistrust, legal thievery, etc. |
| 22:50.45 | Hhhhh | mheath: the doctor would be able to use the technique and save lives, but because of the patent he can't |
| 22:50.54 | hans | Bradipo: whether the barrier to entry is legal or otherwise, the result is the same |
| 22:51.04 | Bradipo | Not really. |
| 22:51.12 | hans | how so? |
| 22:51.21 | Bradipo | The difference is that if someone is allowed to compete, eventually competition will come. |
| 22:51.21 | Hhhhh | mheath: it's not about making what they do public, it's about not leaving people out of the legal competition |
| 22:51.27 | mheath | Hhhhh: well, think of it this way |
| 22:51.29 | Bradipo | If they are not allowed, prices will be held artificially high. |
| 22:51.33 | mheath | Say you were a researcher |
| 22:51.41 | Bradipo | But when competition enters in the legal case, then prices will logically begin to fall. |
| 22:51.43 | mheath | And you had put years of your life into developing this technology |
| 22:51.48 | hans | if someone can compete efficiently, someone will compete efficiently |
| 22:51.52 | mheath | You have no interest in making any money off of it? |
| 22:51.54 | hans | if someone can't compete efficiently, you have a monopoly |
| 22:52.05 | Hhhhh | nobody said that you couldn't do that without patenting |
| 22:52.11 | mheath | Well |
| 22:52.17 | mheath | Every other company can do the same exact thing now |
| 22:52.25 | mheath | and will make just as much money off of it as you can |
| 22:52.25 | hans | I agree that a gov-supported monopoly is harder to break by definitoin |
| 22:52.28 | Hhhhh | you're not forced to publish your methods, and you can offer your services |
| 22:52.31 | Bradipo | If someone cannot compete efficiently, does that not mean that company X is already more efficient and thus should retain its status? |
| 22:52.33 | mheath | So, to you, its as if your not the one that put all the effort in |
| 22:52.42 | mheath | Hhhhh: bah |
| 22:52.45 | Hhhhh | but saying that nobody else can't even try to imitate what you did is a bit extreme |
| 22:52.45 | xilch|w | the idea is, patents give incentive to develop products that are expensive, to guarantee you can pay off the costs you incur to develop |
| 22:52.50 | hans | Bradipo: exactly, it's a market FAILURE |
| 22:52.50 | mheath | as soon as someone else sees your technology, they can replicate it |
| 22:52.58 | Bradipo | It isn't a market failure at all. |
| 22:53.01 | Bradipo | It is a market success. |
| 22:53.04 | Hhhhh | mheath: you can keep your research secret and sell it, nobody says you have to give it away |
| 22:53.05 | hans | nonsense |
| 22:53.10 | hans | you've obviously never taken economics |
| 22:53.16 | Hhhhh | mheath: you don't have to make it easy for your competitors |
| 22:53.18 | Bradipo | It means that the company has achieved great success in providing exactly what their customers want/need. |
| 22:53.29 | hans | it's a company success |
| 22:53.30 | Bradipo | hans: You obviously haven't taken Austrian Economics. |
| 22:53.36 | mheath | Hhhhh: as an example.... |
| 22:53.42 | Hhhhh | mheath: but the whole "you can't try to imitate me because I called first is a bit extreme" |
| 22:53.47 | mheath | Say a private company had developed Reiser Filesystem |
| 22:53.52 | mheath | Now |
| 22:53.53 | Hhhhh | ok |
| 22:53.56 | hans | austrian economics? |
| 22:53.59 | Bradipo | hans: Most economics are skewed and incorrect. |
| 22:54.08 | mheath | How long doy ou think it would take for another company to reverse engineer a hard disk that has a Reiser Filesystem on it? |
| 22:54.11 | Bradipo | hans: http://www.mises.org/ |
| 22:54.20 | mheath | Theres NO WAY to keep these things secret. |
| 22:54.20 | Hhhhh | well, that's why there is something called "copyright" |
| 22:54.28 | mheath | No |
| 22:54.42 | mheath | You can't copyright something like the way a filesystem works |
| 22:54.47 | Bradipo | hans: Here's a fun quiz... Takes a bit of time, but very interesting: http://www.mises.org/quiz.asp |
| 22:54.51 | Hhhhh | and also you can make part of your end-user agreement that they cannot reverse engineer your stuff |
| 22:54.53 | mheath | Copyright is a thing for specific code, or pictures, or music, or a movie. |
| 22:55.01 | Hhhhh | i meant EULA |
| 22:55.08 | Hhhhh | make it part of your EULA |
| 22:55.18 | mheath | Hhhhh: so |
| 22:55.29 | Hhhhh | I mean, Linus didn't not have to see Unix source code to make Linux, right? |
| 22:55.40 | Bradipo | hans: I'm basing most of my arguments based upon my studies of Murray Rothbard, Ludvig von Mises and a number of other Austrian economic publishers. |
| 22:55.41 | mheath | Your view is that rather than having patent law that defeats copying of your technologies easily.... |
| 22:55.49 | Bradipo | Ludwig rather. :-) |
| 22:55.54 | mheath | Companies should have to take people who copy there technologies to court. |
| 22:55.58 | mheath | *their |
| 22:56.04 | Hhhhh | you can let other people try to figure out what you did, if someone reverse engineer what you did you sue their butts in court |
| 22:56.10 | Hhhhh | that is not a trivial lawsuit |
| 22:56.16 | Hhhhh | yes |
| 22:56.40 | mheath | <Hhhhh> I mean, Linus didn't not have to see Unix source code to make Linux, right? |
| 22:56.43 | mheath | Very bad example |
| 22:56.47 | Hhhhh | why? |
| 22:56.56 | hans | Bradipo: define market failure |
| 22:56.56 | mheath | He made an operating system complying to an open, public standard |
| 22:56.59 | Hhhhh | he was able to make a Unix clone from scratch |
| 22:57.01 | mheath | Maintained by The Open Group |
| 22:57.05 | Hhhhh | he was able to make a Unix clone from scratch |
| 22:57.09 | hans | all I'm trying to say is you and I are not on the same page |
| 22:57.10 | mheath | Which specifically says anyone can make a compliant operating system |
| 22:57.12 | Bradipo | hans: I'm not sure I can, because I don't believe the market ever fails. |
| 22:57.14 | Hhhhh | without reverse engineering or copying |
| 22:57.20 | Hhhhh | that is fair competition |
| 22:57.21 | Bradipo | I believe that people always do what they feel is best with their money. |
| 22:57.30 | Hhhhh | reverse engineering isn't |
| 22:57.33 | hans | that's where we differ. I accept the traditional definition of market failure, which is admittedly academic. |
| 22:57.41 | mheath | Hhhhh: thats like Stain Remover Brand 1 and Stain Remover Brand 2 |
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| 22:57.45 | mheath | Both remove stains |
| 22:57.57 | mheath | But both work entirely different |
| 22:58.01 | Hhhhh | yup |
| 22:58.06 | hans | a market failure in a free market is when the market fails to meet peak efficiency, which is entirely mathematical in definition |
| 22:58.07 | mheath | No one can patent "technology that removes stains" |
| 22:58.11 | Bradipo | hans: What definition of market failure are you working with? |
| 22:58.16 | hans | whether or not it's "moral" or "good" is irrelevant, it's a DEFINITION |
| 22:58.16 | Bradipo | hans: Right. |
| 22:58.33 | mheath | However they can patent "chemical X and chemical Y and ... when prepared by doing Z" |
| 22:58.36 | hans | and a monopoly is by DEFINITION related to market failure |
| 22:58.42 | Bradipo | And based on what I have studied, most mathematic models in economics are hard to put to the real world. |
| 22:59.07 | hans | and (again, ignoring morality) a monopoly looks like a monopoly no matter its cause |
| 22:59.17 | Bradipo | I see. |
| 22:59.18 | hans | hence my statement, the result is the same |
| 22:59.25 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 22:59.28 | Bradipo | Makes sense. |
| 22:59.40 | Bradipo | I didn't say that we shouldn't have monopolies though, I said government monopolies. |
| 22:59.55 | Bradipo | The very fact that I'm arguing about monopolies, shows I concede they exist. :-) |
| 23:00.11 | Bradipo | So, yes, there are monopolies. |
| 23:00.20 | hans | I happen to believe, as a consumer, that market failures are bad for me. not the end of the world, but I'd like to see them gone. I wouldn't necessarily always want gov to step in on them though |
| 23:00.30 | Bradipo | But monopolies that arise from natural, free economic choices are fine. |
| 23:00.47 | Bradipo | And they can be broken, assuming the consumer feels that they need to go elsewhere. |
| 23:01.01 | hans | no, there is no elsewhere (or not enough elsewhere) |
| 23:01.01 | Bradipo | I don't believe market failures (given your definition) are bad. |
| 23:01.07 | Bradipo | Sure there is. |
| 23:01.09 | hans | nope |
| 23:01.31 | Bradipo | All it takes is for an entrepeneur to get a whif of something brewing, some way to make money, some way to cut into that flow of money going to the monopoly. |
| 23:01.34 | Bradipo | And there will be a choice. |
| 23:01.51 | hans | but the barrier to entry is too high |
| 23:01.58 | hans | or else there wouldn't _be_ a monopoly |
| 23:02.08 | hans | because as soon as someone starts to make money, competition enters |
| 23:02.11 | Bradipo | So you are saying that monopolies only exist because the costs are high? |
| 23:02.14 | hans | long before monopoly stage |
| 23:02.21 | hans | no, that's not the only reason |
| 23:02.25 | Bradipo | A monopoly didn't just start that way. |
| 23:02.36 | hans | not necessarily, you're right |
| 23:02.39 | Bradipo | It had to go through years of working with the consumer to come up with a product that put it there. |
| 23:02.46 | hans | right |
| 23:02.50 | Bradipo | Unless of course it was put into place by the government. |
| 23:03.08 | Bradipo | But that doesn't mean that someone cannot cut into the marketplace. |
| 23:03.08 | hans | so mr. entrepeneur doesn't have to go through those same years? |
| 23:03.08 | Bradipo | Cannot take some part of what that company does. |
| 23:03.15 | hans | mr. |
| 23:03.31 | Bradipo | Sure the costs are high, but entrepreneur are used to dealing with high risks. |
| 23:03.34 | hans | engtrepeneur has some magic that endears the customers to switch to his product until he has critical mass? |
| 23:03.50 | Bradipo | Sure, entrepreneur has to go through that. |
| 23:04.19 | Bradipo | Unless he can work smarter with less. |
| 23:05.16 | Bradipo | If the product is bad, the customer would start looking for something else. |
| 23:05.27 | Bradipo | Even if there isn't something, he would start putting out feelers for something else. |
| 23:05.51 | Bradipo | Someone would see a need and jump in. It might start out small, most good ideas do. |
| 23:07.30 | Bradipo | Anyway, it looks like I drove everyone away. :-) |
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| 23:17.32 | mheath|sparc | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:17.35 | mheath|sparc | argh |
| 23:17.41 | mheath|sparc | Ignore that =\ |
| 23:31.28 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@67.53.103.87) |
| 23:37.00 | *** join/#utah jsmith_ (~jsmith@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
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| 23:41.17 | luminerd | how goes it? |
| 23:44.56 | goozbach | just peachy |
| 23:45.05 | goozbach | $FEMALE[0] is making me dinner tonight |
| 23:45.34 | goozbach | then I'm hanging out with $FEMALE[1] later |
| 23:45.58 | Jayce^ | and you wonder why @FEMALE questions the things you say |
| 23:47.00 | goozbach | $FEMALE[0] is 100% aware of $FEMALE[1] and my relationship with her |
| 23:47.12 | goozbach | and vice-versa |
| 23:52.49 | drewbono | anyone here know how to xfer a mailman install from one machine to another/ |
| 23:52.51 | drewbono | ? |
| 23:52.56 | drewbono | Can I simply copy the files? |
