| 00:56.56 | *** join/#utah levi-treo (~upirc@h4606715d.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 00:57.13 | levi-treo | Yo. |
| 00:59.19 | tensai | word |
| 01:07.57 | levi-treo | Wassup? |
| 01:15.23 | tensai | eating cake |
| 01:19.18 | levi-treo | I'm eating candy and listening to my mom-in-law's choir. |
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| 03:41.11 | mrpull_ | any pix gurus awake? |
| 03:45.25 | mrpull_ | anyone awake? |
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| 04:20.44 | levi-treo | Good evening. |
| 04:20.51 | mrpull_ | sup? |
| 04:21.17 | levi-treo | Watching the h2g2 BBC miniseries |
| 04:21.25 | mrpull_ | i saw that last night... |
| 04:21.32 | mrpull_ | man the special effects were baaad |
| 04:22.15 | levi-treo | Oh, they were better than par for BBC shows of the era.. |
| 04:22.41 | mrpull_ | my wife wasn't impressed. I didn't watch for long. |
| 04:22.44 | levi-treo | I mean, look at Doctor Who. |
| 04:22.50 | mrpull_ | do you plan to see the movie? |
| 04:22.59 | levi-treo | Yup. |
| 04:23.39 | levi-treo | You read the books? |
| 04:23.43 | mrpull_ | yes |
| 04:23.58 | mrpull_ | i dont read much fiction, but that series kept my attention |
| 04:24.09 | levi-treo | How about the radio show? |
| 04:24.25 | mrpull_ | no. never tried it. |
| 04:24.26 | spr | mm.. radio show.. |
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| 04:24.57 | spr | I need to rip the secondary phase still |
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| 15:04.38 | levi | Good morning. |
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| 15:14.36 | hans | ~lart lukfugl |
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| 15:30.27 | hans | so i'm hearing this rumor that firefox doesn't work for citrix users. can anyone confirm or deny? |
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| 15:37.01 | hans | ~hug imms |
| 15:37.03 | ibot | ACTION hugs imms |
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| 15:47.47 | tapH20guru | anyone into xbox mods? |
| 15:48.16 | jsmith | From his nick, I would guess xbmodder is... |
| 15:48.57 | tapH20guru | ummm.... well.... |
| 15:49.10 | tapH20guru | trying to load the savegame hack |
| 15:49.48 | tapH20guru | is it better to 1. build a usb adapter cable or 2. unlock HDD and place the save game to the HDD then lock it back up |
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| 16:15.30 | emcnabb | quiet morning so far |
| 16:15.57 | mrpull_ | anyone esle (have to) use MSN messenger service? |
| 16:16.05 | hans | mrpull_: heck no |
| 16:16.09 | mrpull_ | if so, is it working this morning for you? |
| 16:16.09 | emcnabb | yes |
| 16:16.11 | hans | for my part anyhow |
| 16:16.17 | emcnabb | seems to be |
| 16:16.27 | hans | emcnabb: it's an illusion |
| 16:16.30 | emcnabb | haha |
| 16:16.45 | emcnabb | I have Jabber accounts, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc |
| 16:16.49 | mrpull_ | rats. my client isnt working well |
| 16:17.14 | emcnabb | Jabber is my prefered choice, MSN is the last :-) |
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| 16:17.24 | emcnabb | goozbach: slacker |
| 16:18.09 | goozbach | i havernt been to the office in a month |
| 16:19.03 | emcnabb | you don't even come into work |
| 16:19.05 | emcnabb | slacker |
| 16:19.35 | goozbach | so cal rocks |
| 16:19.53 | goozbach | just so you know |
| 16:20.39 | goozbach | you're gonna be gone longer than I |
| 16:21.05 | goozbach | with the wedding and whatnot |
| 16:28.13 | levi | Hah, people are trying to get OS/2 open sourced. |
| 16:28.44 | levi | Not that I don't think it'd be nice if it was, but I think pigs will fly first. |
| 16:28.58 | jsmith | levi: Good luck with that happening... since it was half-done by Microsoft (at least initially) |
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| 16:37.36 | emcnabb | goozbach: I'm just joking |
| 16:39.06 | goozbach | ~dict carpetbomb |
| 16:39.41 | hans | ~dict carptebomb |
| 16:40.46 | goozbach | bahbomb |
| 16:44.24 | mrpull_ | hrrrmmm.... passport doesn't seem to work for me today. |
| 16:44.30 | mrpull_ | thanks microsoft! |
| 16:45.11 | hans | mrpull_: where do you want to go today? |
| 16:45.13 | hans | nowhere, apparently. |
| 16:45.17 | mrpull_ | yup. |
| 16:45.23 | mrpull_ | oh well. it is just for work. |
| 16:47.48 | tensai | I signed on to msn messenger this morning. worked just fine. it must not like you. |
| 16:48.03 | mrpull_ | it's true. |
| 16:48.29 | mrpull_ | passport is working on my machine at work |
| 16:48.34 | mrpull_ | just not this laptop from home |
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| 16:49.50 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 17:17.16 | Jayce^ | busy today |
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| 17:25.15 | hans | Jayce^: it's the hangovers |
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| 17:44.38 | Uncle_Jesse | ~lart Comcast for having the best internet deal out right now |
| 17:44.47 | Uncle_Jesse | I hate comcast |
| 17:45.02 | Uncle_Jesse | swore I would never go with them again |
| 17:47.19 | dataw0lf|w | is your soul really worth the couple bucks you'll save? that's the real question. |
| 17:49.51 | Uncle_Jesse | a couple bucks and port 80? |
| 17:49.55 | Uncle_Jesse | might be |
| 17:50.20 | Uncle_Jesse | also, their ip's change less-frequently than Verizon |
| 17:50.55 | Uncle_Jesse | At my last place I had a static IP, but that ISP doesn't support lines with both Copper and Fiber, which is what my new place is on |
| 17:58.56 | xilch|w | I have had really few problems with my comcast connection |
| 18:00.41 | Uncle_Jesse | They just made me mad once and I told them I was never coming back |
| 18:04.13 | Uncle_Jesse | very cool |
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| 19:13.21 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: ctrl-r in what context? |
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| 19:21.15 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: in a terminal |
| 19:21.37 | Uncle_Jesse | allows you to pull up a recent bash command |
| 19:24.58 | levi | Oh, right. I've seen people do that for a long time, but I finally added it to my keystroke memory a couple of months ago. It's very nice. |
| 19:26.13 | tensai | Uncle_Jesse: not just bash, but any readline app such as the mysql cli |
| 19:26.58 | Uncle_Jesse | very cool |
| 19:27.54 | findlay | it gets really good when you want to get at some complex command in your ~/.bash_history |
| 19:28.37 | findlay | and instead of hitting <ctrl>-r to find the command, you just grep it in your ~/.bash_history |
| 19:28.55 | findlay | and then that command is now in your ~/.bash_history |
| 19:29.32 | findlay | interesting way to access what you did |
| 19:32.53 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: It also works in emacs, which is where it came from. |
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| 19:49.49 | tensai | hans: why not take a few minutes and reconfigure the plug reply to? |
| 19:50.10 | Jayce^ | because I'll kick him :) |
| 19:50.17 | hans | tempting. that would definitely solve the boredom issue. :) |
| 19:50.28 | tensai | ooh, two ops duking it out. it'll be world war 3. |
| 19:50.56 | hans | first order of business, kickban all spectators. ;-) |
| 19:54.19 | levi | hans: If you're bored, it's your fault. |
| 19:54.25 | levi | hans: Read some papers on Actor theory! |
| 19:54.48 | hans | actually I was going to go dig up a paper or something |
| 19:55.09 | hans | being bored is usually a state of mind for me. I can see the plethora of things that should be not boring, but they just don't look enticing |
| 19:55.17 | tensai | why did you bury it? was it that incriminating? |
| 19:55.19 | hans | maybe I'm tired, or my blood sugar is off |
| 19:55.49 | hans | did I mention that hoary is uglier than warty? |
| 19:55.53 | levi | It's been said that the Actor theory of computation is at the same level as the turing machine model or the lambda calculus model. |
| 19:56.03 | hans | what were they thinking with that terrible desktop background |
| 19:56.16 | levi | I haven't used hoary at all. |
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| 19:56.39 | hans | ~lart vontrapp |
| 19:56.52 | vontrapp | anyone successfully use xcompmgr? |
| 19:56.56 | xilch|w | hans: all the ubuntu desktops are ugly. |
| 19:56.58 | lukfugl | ~lart vontrapp |
| 19:57.14 | hans | xilch|w: I liked warty's. but we've already had that discussion |
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| 19:57.32 | levi | It's also been said that the Actor model is a truer form of what OOP was trying to accomplish in the first place. |
| 19:57.33 | hans | haven't seen anything from before warty, but from what I hear they weren't exactly "ugly" |
| 19:57.53 | levi | ugly/pretty is subjective |
| 19:58.20 | spr | vontrapp, yeah. |
| 19:59.44 | vontrapp | xcompmgr for me works ok except that i can't have a background image |
| 20:00.52 | vontrapp | and with shadows on, it leaves ghost windows everywhere when moving stuff |
| 20:01.15 | bucky | xilch|w, out of curiousity does that include kubuntu as being ugly as well ? |
| 20:02.01 | xilch|w | bucky: the brown theme has never done much for me. I've never seen the kubuntu desktop, since I am a loyal KDE hate monger |
| 20:02.11 | bucky | lol |
| 20:10.43 | bucky | i had issues with xcompmgr and glx.. but it's been a while since i tried it |
| 20:10.56 | spr | vontrapp, I didn't have any issues like that on mine, and I tried it about 5 months ago |
| 20:10.57 | hans | what's xcompmgr? |
| 20:11.20 | spr | hans, the thing that lets you use the new x.org "real" transparency |
| 20:11.29 | spr | (and someother cool stuff) |
| 20:12.01 | hans | ah |
| 20:12.11 | hans | what's not real about it? |
| 20:12.59 | goozbach | it's pseudo |
| 20:12.59 | vontrapp | hans: it _is_ real |
| 20:13.19 | vontrapp | previous transparencies were pseudo |
| 20:13.50 | hans | that's what I thought, but spr makes it sound like it's still not real |
| 20:14.25 | vontrapp | it took my entire large suitcase just for my sweaters |
| 20:14.50 | hans | be sure to tell Kendra |
| 20:15.34 | lukfugl | "real" as in "as real as you can get without raytracing" |
| 20:15.42 | lukfugl | ? |
| 20:16.11 | vontrapp | lukfugl: real as in alpha |
| 20:16.26 | hans | if I were making up the jargon, lukfugl is right and that's "psuedo" transparency. what we have had before (just background images) is "fake" or "imposter" transparency |
| 20:16.28 | lukfugl | ok |
| 20:17.11 | lukfugl | hans: there was non-alpha channel "psuedo" transparency before, and I think that's what was "psuedo" and alpha is real |
| 20:17.42 | lukfugl | in other words, it was software blending on the part of the app/wm to get the "transparency" rather than X-provided alpha channels |
| 20:17.55 | lukfugl | vontrapp: right? |
| 20:18.47 | hans | the only "transparency" I've seen before xorg was where the app grabs the desktop image and alphas it. |
| 20:19.48 | lukfugl | hans: some apps have had the option to give the menus, for instance, less than 100% opacity |
| 20:20.12 | lukfugl | but again, it was managed by the app/wm, not by the underlying X |
| 20:20.29 | tensai | kde has a menu fade-in feature |
| 20:22.11 | vontrapp | xcompmanager can make anything fade in/out |
| 20:23.15 | hans | vontrapp: even crying babies? |
| 20:23.39 | hans | what about clueless users? |
| 20:23.40 | vontrapp | if you started bouncing-babies in a dosbox i'm sure it would fade in |
| 20:23.54 | hans | ah, bouncing babies. hours of fun. |
| 20:24.07 | hans | right along with flightmare |
| 20:24.16 | lukfugl | win one for the gipper |
| 20:25.04 | vontrapp | it is a little slow still |
| 20:25.20 | vontrapp | i only really notice it on large windows though |
| 20:25.38 | vontrapp | large being my 1200px high web browser |
| 20:27.48 | vontrapp | i have RenderAccel turned on |
| 20:29.22 | levi | Probably because the x compositing stuff isn't ready for prime-time yet. |
| 20:29.43 | levi | I'm anxiously awaiting at least something like double-buffering. |
| 20:29.53 | levi | I would really, really like double buffering. |
| 20:30.39 | hans | I'm no expert in this stuff, but didn't I see the option for double-buffering for one of the various cards I've configured X for? |
| 20:30.42 | levi | Transparency is cool, but not nearly as nice as windows that leave garbage across each other and don't repaint when their app is doing something else. |
| 20:31.03 | levi | Er, windows that /don't/ leave garbage. |
| 20:31.17 | hans | come on, I always thought that was way cool |
| 20:31.22 | levi | Well, that sentence was a bust, but you know what I meant. |
| 20:31.33 | levi | Ugh, I've always thought it was disgusting. |
| 20:31.52 | hans | just think of it as a moment to express your artistic creativity |
| 20:32.00 | Jayce^ | levi: it's just showing you how dedicated it is to completing your task :) |
| 20:32.02 | hans | and the windows are your paintbrushes |
| 20:33.01 | levi | Yes, I do often drag crap around like that just to see the garbage. It's a reminder that I'm still in Linux in a day where Gnome gives a reasonable approximation of a real graphical OS shell. |
| 20:33.51 | levi | Back in the twm days, everything looked like crap and that's exactly what you expected. |
| 20:34.19 | hans | and we liked it! |
| 20:34.27 | levi | I didn't like it. |
| 20:34.30 | levi | I never liked twm. |
| 20:34.37 | hans | well, that's going a little far |
| 20:34.40 | hans | or athena |
| 20:34.49 | levi | X was digustingly slow, bloated, and ugly. |
| 20:34.58 | levi | It's always been disgustingly slow, bloated, and ugly. |
| 20:35.03 | hans | to tell the truth I've never been overly impressed with X |
| 20:35.09 | hans | seems hackish, too |
| 20:35.13 | levi | Yeah. |
| 20:35.32 | hans | X would never be a reason to switch to linux |
| 20:35.34 | levi | Well, it is a hack. Curse the powers-that-be that let NeWS escape. |
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| 20:36.52 | hans | what we need is a new elegant graphical system a la aqua and a compatibility layer a la x11 in os x. |
| 20:37.14 | levi | That'd be great. Unfortunately, all attempts at creating one seem to stall out. |
| 20:38.20 | JoshH | someone (not me) needs to pay people to create one |
| 20:38.45 | levi | The Berlin project seems to be totally dead now. |
| 20:38.47 | hans | and them people need to be not-just-your-standard-wannabe developers |
| 20:39.04 | hans | but people who really know about this sort of thing |
| 20:39.05 | levi | Their dns name is up for sale. |
| 20:40.07 | levi | Hmm, Fresco is still around to some degree, though. |
| 20:40.27 | JoshH | maybe the ubuntu guy will do it, he is loaded |
| 20:41.58 | hans | if only I was loaded with cash |
| 20:42.16 | levi | I guess Fresco used to be Berlin. |
| 20:43.51 | levi | http://www.fresco.org/introduction.html |
| 20:44.26 | JoshH | fresco is a pretty good restaurant too |
| 20:44.47 | hans | corba |
| 20:46.36 | fungus | a www.freesco.org is a handy thing too. |
| 20:49.59 | JoshH | and fresca is a refreshing beverage |
| 20:50.56 | hans | i could go for a fresca about now |
| 20:53.52 | levi | Well, they've had CVS activity in 2005, so Fresco may not be completely dead. |
| 20:54.12 | levi | hans: What sort of an architecture were you imagining for an X-replacement? |
| 20:56.47 | hans | hadn't thought through anything, really, but something theoretically sound and not just a hodge-podge hacked together sort of thing like X and Windows seem to be. |
| 20:59.28 | levi | Fresco seems theoretically cool, but perhaps too heavy to ever get implemented and 'out there' without a great deal of support from somewhere. |
| 21:00.58 | bucky | what about gnustep ? |
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| 21:04.30 | levi | Does gnustep have its own display system now? |
| 21:04.30 | levi | I haven't been following it very closely. |
| 21:04.30 | levi | If it does have a DPS backend, that would be cool. |
| 21:06.07 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 21:06.20 | hans | ~whack sjansen |
| 21:06.22 | ibot | ACTION whacks sjansen upside the head. |
| 21:06.34 | sjansen | ~seen bucky |
| 21:06.40 | ibot | bucky <~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 5m 42s ago, saying: 'what about gnustep ?'. |
| 21:06.53 | bucky | ~hug sjansen |
| 21:06.55 | ibot | ACTION hugs sjansen |
| 21:06.55 | sjansen | bucky: Wanted to apologize for a couple days ago. I was a bit harsh. |
| 21:07.12 | lukfugl | ick |
| 21:07.12 | bucky | no problem |
| 21:07.12 | hans | ~lag |
| 21:07.13 | ibot | well, lag is very bad here :( |
| 21:07.13 | bucky | lol |
| 21:07.30 | lukfugl | PHP has no anonymous functions? (and don't point me at create_function) |
| 21:07.30 | lukfugl | is that changed in PHP5? |
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| 21:09.22 | lukfugl | ~lart PHP |
| 21:09.29 | Uncle_Jesse | Jayce^: did you get my /msg? |
| 21:09.38 | Jayce^ | no |
| 21:10.02 | lukfugl | I don't want to build a string and then eval it in order to get a lamda |
| 21:10.12 | lukfugl | that is the stupidest thing I've ever seen |
| 21:10.33 | levi | PHP is indeed disgusting. |
| 21:10.56 | sjansen | lukfugl: Stupidest? That means you haven't been using PHP nearly long enough. |
| 21:10.57 | levi | What's the point of PHP as a general-purpose language? |
| 21:11.06 | lukfugl | sjansen: fortunately not |
| 21:11.12 | lukfugl | I avoid it when possible. |
| 21:11.13 | Uncle_Jesse | weird |
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| 21:11.50 | hans | missed my chance. I could have deopped jayce and claimed lordship |
| 21:11.56 | Uncle_Jesse | Jayce^: would I be annoying if I contacted Dan directly to follow up on my resume? |
| 21:12.35 | lukfugl | I'm preparing an informal training on Dependency Injection for other members of our team, and have been doing the examples in PHP, since that's what they'll be using. But this is a major setback... |
| 21:13.47 | sjansen | I'm writing XSLT that generates TeX--and believe it or not I'm _still_ grateful to not be writing PHP. |
| 21:15.01 | levi | What could you possibly want to program, besides web templates, for which PHP would be the best choice? |
| 21:15.53 | lukfugl | The problem is, it is web templates. So it's pretty well embedded |
| 21:16.40 | levi | hans: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NetworkExtensibleWindowSystem |
| 21:16.50 | levi | Ahh. |
| 21:17.20 | lukfugl | fortunately the need for lambdas is incidental in this case (an intermediate step in my explained refactoring, which will disappear in the next step) |
| 21:17.32 | levi | Well, I think lisp happens to be far better suited for web templates, but alas... lisp has got a bad name in hackerdom these days. |
| 21:21.53 | hans | i think most people just don't know how to program in lisp. |
| 21:22.12 | levi | It's not really very hard. |
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| 21:23.04 | Uncle_Jesse | lithp? |
| 21:24.02 | levi | hans: If Common Lisp was taught as a general-purpose programming language in school instead of Scheme as a vehicle for teaching language theory, people wouldn't think it was hard at all. |
| 21:25.05 | levi | hans: What's 'hard' is learning a new syntax, how to phrase your programs functionally, how to phrase your programs recursively, and learning computer language theory all at the same time. |
| 21:25.36 | hans | yup. those first three are all inherent to lisp though |
| 21:25.55 | levi | Common Lisp as a practical programming language is mostly learning syntax differences, though. |
| 21:26.12 | levi | You /can't/ phrase everything recursively like in Scheme, because it doesn't guarantee tail call elimination. |
| 21:26.45 | hans | what makes lisp a great templating language? |
| 21:27.03 | levi | The quasi-quoting system. |
| 21:27.18 | hans | ? |
| 21:27.37 | levi | And the fact that the language is geared towards manipulating structured data. |
| 21:29.19 | levi | There are a number of ways to generate html from lisp, but here's a simple example: `(html (head (title "My page")) (body (h1 "My page") ,@(body-insert-function))) |
| 21:29.57 | hans | i'm not familiar with the @ thing |
| 21:30.06 | bucky | but what about gnustep ? |
| 21:30.07 | levi | It's a list-splice operator. |
| 21:30.23 | levi | bucky: What about it? |
| 21:30.33 | bucky | why is it not very pretty |
| 21:30.50 | levi | bucky: Because they wanted it to look like NeXTStep. |
| 21:30.50 | hans | bucky: because the gnustep developers are descended from ents. |
| 21:30.51 | bucky | when the gnusteppers say it can look like anything you want |
| 21:31.12 | bucky | and that's what the enlightenment people say |
| 21:31.17 | bucky | the same thing |
| 21:31.31 | bucky | ants... lol |
| 21:31.35 | hans | ents |
| 21:31.43 | sjansen | as in treebeard |
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| 21:31.47 | levi | bucky: The enlightenment people are interested in how it looks, and the gnustep people are, largely, not. |
| 21:32.01 | lukfugl | hans: read lisp's @ as ruby's *, I think |
| 21:32.21 | hans | do the gnustep people have a working useful "finder" now? |
| 21:32.22 | sjansen | hans: Now that I think about it, I think you're right. |
| 21:32.30 | hans | you know, the wonderful 3-column file browser thing |
| 21:32.58 | levi | hans: Anyway, the ` is the quasiquote operator, which says that everything beyond it should be quoted. The , is the unquote operator, which says that what follows it should be evaluated immediately. The @ is a splice, which says that the list returned by the form should be folded into the current quasiquoted one. |
| 21:33.29 | levi | hans: Does that make the example clear? |
| 21:35.31 | hans | so the body-get-function gets evaluated immediately and you have a long string with all the lisp to then be generated into html? |
| 21:36.08 | levi | hans: Not a string, a list. Much quicker to process into html. |
| 21:36.36 | levi | hans: And the internal memory structure ends up being a tree of cons cells representing the document. |
| 21:36.53 | levi | hans: Which you can then transform, if you like, into html or whatever. |
| 21:37.42 | hans | a list... I'm half-lost |
| 21:38.15 | levi | This creates a list: `(html (head (title "My page")) (body (h1 "My page") ,@(body-insert-function))) |
| 21:38.30 | levi | (body-insert-function) is a function that returns a list. |
| 21:38.49 | levi | It's called when the first list is being constructed in memory by the lisp reader function. |
| 21:39.28 | lukfugl | nope, I still need the delayed evaluation of a lambda, which means I'm still stuck with create_function. That's just sickening. |
| 21:39.38 | hans | `(html (head (title "My Page")) (body (h1 "My page"))) , |
| 21:39.43 | hans | is that also a list? |
| 21:39.49 | levi | That's a form that creates a list. |
| 21:39.51 | hans | "first list"? |
| 21:39.54 | sjansen | lukfugl: And dangerous. Don't forget dangerous. |
| 21:40.32 | lukfugl | sjansen: the string passed to create_function is static, not tainted, so *in this case* not dangerous. But your point is noted |
| 21:41.38 | levi | hans: If you start Lisp and type `(html (head (title "My page")) (body (h1 "My page"))), it creates a list that looks like: (html (head (title "My page")) (body (h1 "my page"))) when you print it. |
| 21:42.12 | levi | hans: The ` prevents it from getting evaluated like a function, since normally typing (foo bar) tries to call the function 'foo' with argument 'bar' |
| 21:42.56 | hans | oh... I thought html was a function that you had defined |
| 21:43.00 | hans | now it makes more senes |
| 21:43.22 | levi | You can still create a function called html, if you want. That can be the function that transforms a list like that into HTML. |
| 21:44.17 | hans | so you construct the document tree and then 'render' it |
| 21:44.22 | levi | Right. |
| 21:50.21 | levi | hans: It's also pretty trivial to embed lisp code within special tags in HTML, if you want to do that sort of templating. |
| 21:50.58 | levi | So, writing the code to render your pages is really easy. As an added bonus, it's also fast because Lisp compiles to native machine code. |
| 21:52.18 | levi | Lisp also has cl-ppcre, which is about the same speed as perl's regular expression engine, and sometimes faster. |
| 21:53.05 | sjansen | Yes, but is it turing complete? |
| 21:53.18 | levi | ~lart sjansen |
| 21:53.33 | hans | sjansen: php is turing complete |
| 21:54.00 | sjansen | So is Perl's regex engine. Which makes it something of a misnomer. ;-) |
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| 21:54.30 | levi | That's not a quality of a regex engine that I'm particularly interested in, so... |
| 21:55.16 | levi | http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ |
| 21:55.21 | levi | If you want to find out for yourself. |
| 21:56.56 | levi | Looks like it's completely compatible with perl's regex engine, aside from some known bugs in perl's implementation that it does not share. |
| 21:57.08 | levi | At least according to the cl-ppcre page. |
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| 22:14.56 | levi | No further comments on lisp as a web-template language? |
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| 22:18.44 | hans | I agree with you. I might add that Ruby has most of those advantages as well. |
| 22:18.57 | hans | plus it's easier to pick up |
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| 22:21.07 | bucky | RMS has gone to scheme |
| 22:22.53 | findlay | thanks everybody for filling up my irssi log with text that is meaningless to me (-: |
| 22:23.13 | bucky | at least this was about programming |
| 22:23.32 | sjansen | shoot, I was about to go find some song lyrics for his log |
| 22:23.42 | bucky | lol |
| 22:24.00 | bucky | levi... i'm ready to use lisp |
| 22:24.36 | bucky | where do i start? |
| 22:24.54 | levi | bucky: http://gigamonkeys.com/book |
| 22:25.01 | bucky | oky |
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| 22:25.30 | sjansen | Clip your toenails. Ponder your toenail clippings. This is the true beginning of wisdom, grass hopper. |
| 22:26.40 | levi | Scheme is easier in some ways than CL, and harder in others. The thing about Scheme is that if you want to do practical stuff, you will generally be stuck with a specific scheme implementation since only a small core of the language is standardized and implementations have differing extensions to do practical things. |
| 22:30.46 | bucky | levi, which lispbox should i use? CLISP ? |
| 22:36.08 | levi | bucky: What platform are you using? |
| 22:36.17 | levi | bucky: If linux, I suggest sbcl. |
| 22:36.22 | bucky | okay |
| 22:36.23 | levi | clisp is kind of quirky. |
| 22:36.40 | levi | And it's a bytecode compiler/virtual machine instead of a native compiler. |
| 22:37.11 | levi | It's fairly small and portable, though, if you're in need of those virtues. |
| 22:42.55 | bucky | cl-clx-sbcl - An X11 Common Lisp client library for SBCL |
| 22:43.25 | levi | I haven't tried any gui programming in CL. |
| 22:43.34 | bucky | cl-irc - Common Lisp Internet Relay Chat Library |
| 22:43.40 | sjansen | It's not like I mind. In fact, I love it. Awfully strange, though, considering I didn't sign up for it. |
| 22:43.46 | levi | You looking at cl debian packages? |
| 22:43.53 | bucky | yep... sarge |
| 22:43.55 | levi | sjansen: I wish that happened to me. |
| 22:44.01 | bucky | sbcl |
| 22:44.04 | bucky | cl-modlisp - Common Lisp interface to the Apache mod-lisp module |
| 22:44.16 | levi | I use araneida for web stuff. |
| 22:44.18 | bucky | cl-uffi - Universal Foreign Function Library for Common Lisp |
| 22:44.32 | bucky | sbcl - A development environment for Common Lisp |
| 22:44.39 | bucky | all in sarge |
| 22:45.01 | levi | Yup. |
| 22:45.39 | bucky | of course there's a couple hundred for apt-cache search lisp |
| 22:46.40 | levi | apt-cache isn't terribly useful these days without piping through grep. |
| 22:48.53 | bucky | with 8710 packages it gets pretty hard to do a good search especially with some of the not too intuitive naming of some of those packages |
| 22:49.51 | levi | bucky: Anyway, if you have any lisp questions, I'll be happy to answer to the extent of my knowledge. |
| 22:50.00 | bucky | thank you levi :)) |
| 22:55.46 | levi | I wonder if UVSC has received my transcript yet. |
| 22:57.20 | bucky | levi, admissions or as a teacher? |
| 22:59.22 | levi | admissions. |
| 22:59.28 | levi | I need to finish my BS degree. |
| 22:59.54 | sjansen | Man, I almost feel like a JSP programmer. |
| 23:00.01 | bucky | excellent! https://onaccess.uvsc.edu/uvlinkchoice/ |
| 23:00.05 | bucky | create an account |
| 23:00.22 | levi | bucky: I already have. |
| 23:00.45 | levi | sjansen: How come? |
| 23:00.48 | bucky | levi, where are you transfering your credits from? |
| 23:00.53 | levi | bucky: BYU. |
| 23:00.55 | bucky | ic |
| 23:01.25 | bucky | that's good.. you can make a good living |
| 23:01.55 | levi | What do you mean by that? |
| 23:02.31 | bucky | most people in the industry have a degree.. they make a six figure salary |
| 23:02.32 | sjansen | levi: Write, Compile (convert to TeX), Render, Repeat |
| 23:02.46 | sjansen | It's reducing my productivity. |
| 23:04.41 | levi | Ahh, that does sound like a lengthy process. |
| 23:05.04 | levi | bucky: I don't think most software engineers make a six-figure salary these days. |
| 23:05.41 | bucky | levi, i have an idea for a program |
| 23:05.53 | sjansen | Besides, I'd have to have at least one starving child before I considered being a full-time Java developer. |
| 23:06.43 | bucky | it automatically an simultaneously updates your wep key on an ap and it's window clients every so often |
| 23:08.12 | bucky | Denver is where all the java developers live |
| 23:16.14 | bucky | this is my fav java guy http://raibledesigns.com/page/rd/about?catname=%2FJava |
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| 23:19.36 | levi | bucky: The gigamonkeys.com guy used to be called javamonkey. :) |
| 23:19.45 | bucky | lol |
| 23:20.08 | bucky | that's interesting.. i'm following thru on this tutoriala |
| 23:23.10 | bucky | still reading the introduction.. i like to know the background of programmers |
| 23:32.13 | Bradipo | Anyone recommend a good PHP intro book? |
| 23:32.15 | Bradipo | Not for me... |
| 23:32.30 | Bradipo | For someone with little programming experience. |
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| 23:35.21 | Bradipo | Learning PHP I suppose. |
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