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| 00:30.19 | hans | xmessage |
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| 03:21.43 | mheath | For general information: http://revolution.datamachine.net (new in-progress website for Linux distro I'm working on) and #deskos :) |
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| 03:53.48 | mheath | haha.... |
| 03:54.11 | mheath | GREAT MOMENTS IN HISTORY: April 2, 1751: Issac Newton becomes discouraged after falling up a flight of stairs. |
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| 04:00.04 | findlay | oooooohhh, the irony |
| 04:00.14 | mheath | Of what? |
| 04:00.35 | mheath | findlay, check out http://revolution.datamachine.net/, by the way :) |
| 04:00.48 | findlay | mheath: you're just jealous because my slashdot ID is so symmetric |
| 04:01.15 | mheath | uh, ok? |
| 04:01.29 | findlay | nice webpage, it's pretty |
| 04:01.40 | mheath | Thanks. I didn't make it :D |
| 04:01.46 | findlay | 711336 |
| 04:02.38 | mheath | findlay, look over those pages, tell me what you think (not much content on there yet, shouldn't take long) |
| 04:03.26 | findlay | irony is truly one of those elements of life that gives it interest |
| 04:04.47 | findlay | mheath: you're packaging a full new distro? |
| 04:04.57 | mheath | findlay, yes, basically |
| 04:05.22 | mheath | (I'm starting with the bare-bone basics of another distro, but everything will be rebuilt, repackaged, and a lot will be replaced) |
| 04:05.50 | mheath | http://revolution.datamachine.net/coretech.html <--I'm still adding to that, but take a look |
| 04:07.26 | mheath | I already have a bootable system, waiting for a bit to throw it up on FTP |
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| 05:00.34 | findlay | so that's it Maquis is finally gone |
| 05:00.39 | findlay | time to party |
| 05:07.05 | mheath | findlay, what did you think about http://revolution.datamachine.net/coretech.html ? |
| 05:08.11 | sjansen | the yellow is too light, hard to read |
| 05:08.33 | mheath | Heh, ok. |
| 05:08.41 | mheath | Not exactly what I was looking for, but ok. |
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| 05:59.27 | findlay | its probably all because "Email Worse Than Marijuana For Intelligence?" |
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| 06:05.26 | bucky | hey JoshH |
| 06:05.44 | JoshH | hey |
| 06:05.55 | bucky | JoshH, you drink coffee? |
| 06:05.59 | JoshH | sometimes |
| 06:06.09 | bucky | ever go to the roaster? |
| 06:06.25 | JoshH | salt lake roasting company? |
| 06:06.29 | bucky | yep |
| 06:06.37 | JoshH | ive been a few times, not for quite a while though |
| 06:06.44 | findlay | on 4th south and about 4th east? |
| 06:06.49 | JoshH | ya |
| 06:06.49 | bucky | yep |
| 06:06.56 | bucky | you live in the aves? |
| 06:07.07 | JoshH | i live in holladay now, just moved here from sugarhouse |
| 06:07.16 | Mecworks | Hey, anyone know where to get _good_ 8GB DVD media in utah valley? |
| 06:07.29 | Mecworks | DVD-R |
| 06:07.40 | bucky | newegg.com |
| 06:07.46 | findlay | Mecworks: 8GB means double sided? |
| 06:08.01 | Mecworks | I need to pick ip some localy. |
| 06:08.07 | Mecworks | findlay, no, I need dual layer |
| 06:08.12 | findlay | oh |
| 06:08.16 | Mecworks | so I can burn an 8GB image |
| 06:09.51 | bucky | JoshH, you ever go to the pizza place across from snelgroves? |
| 06:10.02 | JoshH | ive been there a few times |
| 06:10.11 | JoshH | they have pretty good grub |
| 06:10.17 | bucky | really.. how long ago? |
| 06:10.18 | JoshH | kinda pricey though for what it is |
| 06:10.25 | JoshH | i think last time i went was last summer |
| 06:10.42 | JoshH | snelgroves is gone now though |
| 06:10.53 | bucky | in sugarhouse? |
| 06:11.06 | bucky | with the rotating ice cream cone sign? |
| 06:11.09 | JoshH | i think so, i read that it went out of business |
| 06:11.19 | bucky | wow |
| 06:11.57 | JoshH | ya, it was crazy. none of the employees there even had a clue. |
| 06:12.22 | bucky | JoshH, did you know Kurt Wall ? |
| 06:12.39 | JoshH | nope. i know who he is from the sllug list, but i dont know him personally. |
| 06:13.18 | bucky | he lived down south temple in those cream colored apts with big white balconies |
| 06:13.32 | bucky | can't remember the name of them |
| 06:13.38 | JoshH | covey? |
| 06:13.46 | bucky | that's it |
| 06:14.01 | bucky | back when he was working at caldera |
| 06:14.04 | JoshH | those are pretty nice. not as nice as the brigham apts though |
| 06:14.32 | bucky | he used to hang out at the roaster all the time |
| 06:15.08 | bucky | JoshH, so you can afford to live in Holladay? |
| 06:15.12 | JoshH | i never really used to hang out there, ive just stopped by for a late night cup, played chess there a couple times, etc |
| 06:15.51 | JoshH | bucky: with my income and my GF's income combined, we can afford to rent a fairly decent 2 bedroom condo across the street from cottonwood mall. :) |
| 06:15.58 | JoshH | and live comfortably. |
| 06:16.11 | bucky | oh... that's a nice area |
| 06:16.51 | JoshH | its only 610 a month actually. holladay isn't too pricy, its actually quite a bargain |
| 06:17.43 | findlay | that's about 510 more than I pay a month, but then again I don't live in a condo (: |
| 06:20.56 | JoshH | bbiab, gotta drive a drunk girl home. =\ |
| 06:21.36 | bucky | if your going to spew... don't spew in the car 'kay |
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| 08:25.01 | xbmodder | ? |
| 08:26.39 | bonez39 | hi xbmodder |
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| 16:52.06 | sjansen | http://mako.yukidoke.org/copyrighteous/reflections/20050422-00.html |
| 17:04.47 | resplin | sjansen: I like their system better than ours. |
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| 17:27.45 | sjansen | ~lart stupid companies stuck in the past |
| 17:31.36 | sjansen | It's like Questar enjoys the cost of dealing with pieces of paper. |
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| 21:36.48 | sjansen | Morons. |
| 21:43.32 | sjansen | I install slapd. By default it is listening on all interfaces, it's configured with a default admin account that has write and no other access restrictions. |
| 21:43.59 | sjansen | It already bugs me that Debian default to starting services as soon as they're installed. |
| 21:44.25 | sjansen | The only way this maintainer is going to be redeemed in my eyes is if the install is randomzing the admin password. |
| 21:46.40 | sjansen | Meanwhile I've just spent an hour trying to install slapd sucessfully. |
| 21:46.58 | sjansen | Say what you will about RPM, at least it doesn't fail silently. |
| 21:48.03 | sjansen | Ah, good, there it is. At least the password is randomized. |
| 21:51.24 | bucky | sjansen, have you considered moving to an rpm based distro? |
| 21:51.46 | sjansen | I've used RPM based distros for five years now. I'm forcing myself to learn Debian. |
| 21:51.50 | bucky | Fedora Core is nice |
| 21:52.00 | sjansen | No, it's not. Not for a server anyway. |
| 21:52.12 | JoshH | lol |
| 21:52.17 | bucky | hehe |
| 21:52.21 | sjansen | Tried that for a year. It'd be even crazier now that they've completely forgotten what 'stable' means. |
| 21:52.35 | JoshH | you have got to be one of the most opinionated people i know on IRC, sjansen |
| 21:52.49 | sjansen | I'm also usually right, aren't I. ;-) |
| 21:53.07 | bucky | you know what they say about opinions... everyones got one |
| 21:53.12 | LeviHome | Yes, unless you're disagreeing with me. ;) |
| 21:53.12 | JoshH | usually i guess... just not when you talk about debian. :P |
| 21:53.40 | sjansen | Automatically starting a service as soon as it's installed is brain dead. |
| 21:53.57 | bucky | what distro doesn't? |
| 21:54.00 | sjansen | Dying silently during install and reporting success is brain dead. |
| 21:54.16 | bucky | i've never encountered that |
| 21:55.07 | bucky | btw sjansen which debian are you using? |
| 21:55.10 | sjansen | Well I just spent an hour uninstalling and reinstalling slapd, comparing the contents of my filesystem, the results of dpkg -L, and the output from df. |
| 21:55.34 | sjansen | Ubuntu 5.04 |
| 21:55.46 | bucky | oh god... that's not even debian |
| 21:55.53 | sjansen | Debian Unstable and I have a bad track record. Debian Stable is too ancient. |
| 21:56.04 | bucky | is redhat suse because they both use rpm? |
| 21:56.26 | sjansen | You'll have to restate the question in the form of english grammar. |
| 21:57.12 | bucky | sarge while go stable soon and if you have sarge in sources.list it will automaitcally stable thru regular updates |
| 21:57.35 | bucky | ubuntu is not even close to debian or anything stable.. it's based on sid |
| 21:57.38 | sjansen | And then I'll have to wait two ice ages while my server slowly ages. |
| 21:58.00 | JoshH | lol |
| 21:58.00 | bucky | ubuntu doesn't even run at the same runlevel as debian... completely different |
| 21:58.12 | JoshH | its not like servers need to be bleeding edge though. |
| 21:58.15 | sjansen | Ubuntu is actually pretty reliable as distros go. It's what FC should have been. |
| 21:58.47 | bucky | sjansen, wait for what.. all of the 11 archetectures to be fully supported bug free ? |
| 21:58.51 | JoshH | ubuntu just needs a better name |
| 21:59.03 | sjansen | No, but I do appreciate "modern" things like Apache2 and a version of LDAP created this century. (Although Ubuntu also has the same ridiculously old version.) |
| 21:59.06 | JoshH | it hard to say |
| 21:59.07 | bucky | x386 is close enough |
| 21:59.19 | bucky | sjansen, that's default in sarge |
| 22:00.03 | sjansen | So's XFree86. |
| 22:00.16 | bucky | take knoppix.. base it completely on sid and change dpkg to some bastardized new package manager and you have ubuntu |
| 22:00.34 | bucky | i don't care if you use it.. just don't call it debian |
| 22:01.09 | sjansen | It does some things differently, but it's still does most things "The Debian way." |
| 22:01.17 | bucky | it's not debian |
| 22:01.29 | bucky | ubuntu != debian |
| 22:01.46 | JoshH | bucky: i have to admit, id rather use ubuntu than an rpm distro any day of the week and twice on sunday. |
| 22:01.52 | sjansen | Fine. You're right. Ubuntu is more useable. |
| 22:02.06 | bucky | ubuntu is immature |
| 22:02.07 | sjansen | Ubuntu actually releases. |
| 22:02.29 | sjansen | Yes, it is. But it's improving a wonderful rate. |
| 22:02.31 | bucky | it's based on the still in development tree of debian which is flakey at best |
| 22:03.02 | bucky | and it runs completely differently... type /sbin/runlevel and see for your self |
| 22:03.20 | bucky | and their logo is ghey |
| 22:03.33 | bucky | :P |
| 22:03.51 | sjansen | You don't like Ubuntu. I hope Ubuntu superscedes Debian. Let's just leave it at that. |
| 22:03.53 | LeviHome | bucky sure doesn't have any opinion on this, does he? |
| 22:04.15 | bucky | i'm trolling.. but debian is not ubuntu |
| 22:04.31 | bucky | so don't blame debian for it's misdeeds |
| 22:05.09 | bucky | use sarge and i'll listen to you bitch all you want |
| 22:05.20 | LeviHome | Well, Debian also starts services upon install, though it usually takes you through a configuration process beforehand. |
| 22:06.35 | bucky | you might as well use slack.. or better yet LFS |
| 22:09.37 | sjansen | Haven't tried those two, but I did Gentoo when I was younger and had more time. It was fun, for awhile. |
| 22:09.47 | sjansen | But Gentoo QA is patchy at best. |
| 22:12.59 | sjansen | FC3: yum install httpd |
| 22:13.08 | sjansen | FC3: netstat -ltp |
| 22:13.11 | sjansen | no apache |
| 22:13.39 | bucky | why install it if you're not going to use it |
| 22:13.55 | sjansen | chkconfig --list httpd |
| 22:14.04 | sjansen | off at all run levels, so it won't start at a reboot either |
| 22:14.46 | sjansen | Oh, please. You configure it, make any security changes needed (firewall, etc), then you enable it. |
| 22:14.47 | bucky | debian assumes if you install apache2-mpm-* (the executable) that you want to run it |
| 22:15.11 | bucky | apache2ctl graceful |
| 22:16.05 | sjansen | No, I want to configure it and run it when I'm ready. Don't know what bugs me more, automatically starting a service I might what to secure better, or automatically starting a service in a chrooted environment and conflicting with the host environment. |
| 22:16.40 | bucky | like levi said... sarge asks question.. unlike ubuntu |
| 22:16.40 | sjansen | Ultimately made doing an in-place, low down-time switch from CentOS to Ubuntu impossible. |
| 22:17.19 | bucky | you should quit wasting your time and use a distro that doesn't start services on install |
| 22:17.41 | sjansen | And don't get me started about how annoying the lack of multilib is. Last I could tell, Debian was still relying on pure64 and moving forward with multilib at a glacial speed. |
| 22:17.45 | bucky | save yourself the aggravation |
| 22:18.09 | sjansen | You should quit defending stupid aspects of a distro that has alot going for it. |
| 22:18.25 | LeviHome | sjansen: Is there a distro that you could use that would cut down on your whining? Because if there is, I suggest you switch to it post haste. |
| 22:19.05 | bucky | i'm not defending anything.. i'm debunking and for what i care debian doesn't need anymore users |
| 22:19.40 | bucky | multilib is a bad idea |
| 22:20.19 | sjansen | Oh pray tell what's wrong with buying a chip that can do 64bit and 32bit and expecting to actually use it in both modes? |
| 22:20.19 | bucky | and i love pure64 |
| 22:20.54 | bucky | i don't care... the other distros can come up with their own multilib |
| 22:21.15 | bucky | mine does in chroot |
| 22:21.32 | bucky | that's were i want all those 32bit libs |
| 22:21.35 | LeviHome | So, apparently the Actor model of computation can be considered as a peer of the lambda calculus or the turing machine. |
| 22:21.37 | sjansen | You call that a solution? |
| 22:21.47 | bucky | works nice on my box |
| 22:22.01 | sjansen | At least you don't have to build everything like on Gentoo. |
| 22:22.05 | bucky | keeps the novices away |
| 22:22.21 | LeviHome | But it's a better way of looking at programming if you're planning on massive concurrency and distribution. |
| 22:22.28 | sjansen | I've spent time with FC/SL/Gentoo & Ubuntu on this laptop. Multilib can work and it's more convenient. |
| 22:22.35 | bucky | LeviHome, lambada calculus? |
| 22:23.46 | LeviHome | bucky: The lambda calculus was the original basis for the Lisp language. The purpose was to show that you could express and reason about any computation in the lambda calculus, which is less unwieldy than the turing machine as a fundamental model of computation. |
| 22:24.03 | sjansen | Admittedly, Suse and Fedora still don't have it perfect. But at least they recognized that 64bit libs would have to go in lib64. The decision to go with lib32 was stuipd and short sighted. |
| 22:24.13 | bucky | ic |
| 22:24.25 | LeviHome | Lisp no longer bears much more than a passing resemblance, except that you name anonymous functions with the keyword lambda. |
| 22:24.39 | LeviHome | Rather, you create them with the keyword lambda. |
| 22:25.47 | LeviHome | Cool, this paper was dated around 3 months after I was born. |
| 22:26.18 | bucky | sjansen, the only thing i need 32bit for is flash |
| 22:26.30 | LeviHome | bucky: I'm sure Wikipedia has some good info on Lambda calculus if you're interested. |
| 22:26.35 | bucky | and i've decided not to use flash anymore |
| 22:26.43 | sjansen | Good for you. I've needed it to get real work done. |
| 22:27.02 | bucky | LeviHome, how much math do you need to be a good programmer? |
| 22:27.08 | bucky | calculus? |
| 22:27.16 | sjansen | Depends on what type of programmer you want to be. |
| 22:27.17 | bucky | how far up do you go |
| 22:27.24 | bucky | sjansen, i hate flash |
| 22:27.33 | sjansen | bucky: Why are we talking about flash? |
| 22:27.40 | LeviHome | The lambda calculus is mathematical in nature, but it's not really related to what you know as Calculus. |
| 22:27.46 | bucky | i hate macromedia an i hate adobe for buying macromedia |
| 22:27.54 | bucky | sjansen, the only thing i need 32bit for is flash |
| 22:28.07 | sjansen | I don't have flash installed either and I didn't say I needed. Although I'm now saying you're a moron with an inability to listen. |
| 22:28.22 | bucky | that's the only 32bit program i miss |
| 22:28.27 | bucky | :( whaa |
| 22:28.30 | sjansen | Inexperienced. |
| 22:28.59 | sjansen | When you decide you're not going to just fan boy Debian, we talk talk about it more. |
| 22:29.04 | bucky | oh.. i guess i have to run OOo in my 32bit chroot |
| 22:29.07 | bucky | yuck |
| 22:29.15 | LeviHome | If you want to be a code monkey, you don't have to know much math. But computational theory is really a branch off of math, so if you want to get into computer theory, you have to learn more math. |
| 22:29.42 | LeviHome | But the higher maths really bear very little resemblance to high school maths. |
| 22:29.46 | sjansen | Although you can do many enjoyable and interesting things without going too deep into computational theory. |
| 22:30.01 | bucky | LeviHome, ic.. i'm really burnt.. i'm sick of computers - wish i could get back into my web devel with mod-xslt |
| 22:30.19 | LeviHome | Right, you only have to know a little bit of computer theory to do practical stuff with computers. |
| 22:30.23 | bucky | interest level is low right now |
| 22:31.00 | LeviHome | So, don't do computers for a while. Take up another hobby until you get some motivation to work on your computer projects. |
| 22:31.02 | sjansen | Does low level mean EE? Or asm? EE needs a fair bit of math, asm not nearly so much. |
| 22:31.24 | bucky | i run my 32bit chroot in a seperate partition and boot into it... because i can |
| 22:31.36 | LeviHome | When did I say 'low level'? I'm not sure what you're referring to. |
| 22:31.40 | sjansen | I get payed to get work done. |
| 22:32.39 | bucky | sjansen, so i have to run a 32bit mozilla with flash in my chroot if i want flash which i don't |
| 22:32.47 | bucky | so i use only 64bit |
| 22:33.04 | bucky | and do word crunching on another compute |
| 22:33.30 | LeviHome | Wow, this paper on Actors is from 1985, by a guy at the MIT AI Lab. |
| 22:33.37 | bucky | but kde's dcop can use the flash across the chroot |
| 22:33.41 | sjansen | That work sometimes invovles software using 32bit software. Having to use a chroot is akward, annoying, and slightly decreases my productivity. Now if you can't get past "I don't need it, so nobody needs it" I'm just going to /ignore you because I really see no need to educate some inexperienced punk that doesn't want to listen. |
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| 22:33.55 | bucky | but i dont care for konqueror as a web browser |
| 22:35.21 | bucky | i think debian may have the most 64bit ports... especially considering they've been at it longer than the other distros and the other distros just plagurized debians 64bit ports |
| 22:35.57 | sjansen | I enjoy a spirited debate, but I don't waste my time on trolls. Goodbye. |
| 22:36.09 | bucky | i can't think of anything else i miss... oh wait... wmv |
| 22:36.25 | bucky | i miss windows media |
| 22:37.32 | bucky | but i'm giving up all that crap because Richard Stallman is right |
| 22:37.45 | *** part/#utah resplin (~richard@70-58-45-238.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 22:39.24 | sjansen | So if I were documentation on the ldap schema evolution needs, where would I hide? |
| 22:42.01 | bucky | prolly novell |
| 22:43.03 | bucky | nope |
| 22:43.07 | bucky | http://www.gxsnmp.org/CVS/evolution/addressbook/backend/pas/evolutionperson.schema |
| 22:47.47 | bucky | but if ubuntu actually has evolution-data-server |
| 22:48.06 | bucky | it might be in /usr/share/evolution-data-server-1.0/evolutionperson.schema |
| 22:49.16 | bucky | but what do i know.. i'm just a debian fan boy troll that doesn't engage in spirited debate |
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