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| 00:31.52 | Maquis | lost: one attention span... if found, please return to me :) |
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| 00:46.02 | sjansen | scott: you around? |
| 00:46.29 | Maquis | ~lart sjansen |
| 00:48.21 | sjansen | ~lart lists with long names that put the list id in the subject |
| 00:48.46 | Maquis | sjansen: huh? |
| 00:50.05 | sjansen | One of the lists I'm subscribed to has an 11 character name. With indenting, takes up half the space I've allocated to subject lines in my MTA. |
| 00:52.15 | Maquis | sjansen: and it doesn't abbreviate? |
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| 02:15.01 | findlay | ~wiki balrog |
| 02:16.16 | mrpull_ | balrog: the boxer in street fighter |
| 02:17.51 | mrpull_ | i probably could have gone to a real university if it hadn't been all the time I wasted playing Street Fighter during high school |
| 02:18.25 | levi | Heh. |
| 02:18.40 | levi | I believe going to 'real universities' for an undergrad education is overrated. |
| 02:18.57 | levi | Well, for some things, at least. |
| 02:19.05 | mrpull_ | maybe. I think it depends on who is paying for it :) |
| 02:19.16 | indessed | I think it depends on what you want to get out of it :-) |
| 02:20.12 | levi | Well, I think there's probably a happy medium between the community college and the prestigious university where you actually get the best undergrad education. |
| 02:20.46 | levi | My guess is that the intersection lies in small, lesser-known liberal arts schools. |
| 02:21.50 | levi | For grad school, you certainly want to get to the places where the interesting research is being done. If you just want to learn, though, I think a prestigious school has some obstacles that you won't find at a lesser-known school. |
| 02:22.07 | mrpull_ | holy cow... 15th aniversary edition of street fighter II ? |
| 02:22.26 | mrpull_ | I can't possibly consider grad school if there is another SF2 to play :) |
| 02:28.49 | scott | I think you get out of the university what you put in (effort, not money) no matter where you go--but I think small (but not cheap) liberal arts colleges with small classes are definitely the way to go. |
| 02:31.40 | levi | A big, prestigious research university is going to be hard to get into, and the classes must be somewhat artificially hard in order to produce some sort of grading curve that's acceptable to the accreditors. |
| 02:33.08 | scott | one of my friends at SLC has quite a few classes with less than 5 students. If money (or grades) aren't issues, I think that's definitely the way to go over bigger schools |
| 02:33.40 | levi | A university that's hard to get into will be full of smart, capable people. And it's good to be around those people, but the downside is that things /have/ to be really hard in order to keep everyone from getting A's. To some extent, classes can be harder in a good way, but often they are just arbitrarily harder. |
| 02:34.21 | levi | A lot of it depends on the professors. And in a research university, a lot of them will be more interested in their research than teaching undergrads. |
| 02:35.20 | levi | The upside is that you can associate with professors who are doing cool research and know what they're talking about. The downside is that they may not be particularly good at teaching it. |
| 02:35.46 | *** part/#utah indessed (~ross@71-36-72-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 02:36.06 | levi | But, in my experience, I learned a LOT more in small classes with teachers who were really interested in teaching. |
| 02:36.30 | levi | Even though those classes were not necessarily harder. |
| 02:38.18 | findlay | ~google balrog |
| 02:38.30 | mrpull_ | balrog: the boxer in street fighter II |
| 02:38.53 | mrpull_ | a boss in the orignal SF2... a playable character in CE and later :) |
| 02:40.37 | levi | I used to play SFII a lot. Got decent at it, but not great. |
| 02:41.06 | mrpull_ | i could beat all my friends... but there were bigger geeks than me that could whoop me |
| 02:41.32 | levi | My friends and I all alternated at who was best. |
| 02:42.13 | mrpull_ | yeah... we'd handicap ourselves by choosing characters we werent as good with to balance things out |
| 02:42.31 | mrpull_ | ah... the early nineties |
| 02:43.52 | levi | One of us would figure out some sort of trick with a certain character, and we'd be on top until someone else figured out a way to counter it. |
| 02:47.37 | scott | so, anyone know of an objective study that shows whether gentoo is really considerably faster than other distros? |
| 02:47.58 | mrpull_ | scott... have you seen the "ricer" web page for gentoo? |
| 02:48.12 | scott | nope |
| 02:48.39 | mrpull_ | do you have a farily high tolerance for curse words? |
| 02:49.25 | mrpull_ | s/farily/fairly/ |
| 02:49.36 | scott | reading it now.. |
| 02:49.49 | mrpull_ | the funroll-loops.org site? |
| 02:50.23 | mrpull_ | my take is this... for all the time it will save me by being "faster" is wasted by me compiling software |
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| 02:50.40 | mrpull_ | i've used distcc on 3 nodes to speed things up (but not by much) |
| 02:50.58 | mrpull_ | it _is_ a good learning experience to use it. |
| 02:51.10 | mrpull_ | for real work, something else is better |
| 02:51.12 | levi | I didn't think it was particularly instructive, really. |
| 02:51.22 | levi | I was thoroughly underwhelmed. |
| 02:51.42 | mrpull_ | do you suppose you were fairly well versed in linux beforehand? |
| 02:51.47 | levi | Yeah. |
| 02:52.17 | levi | But if you really want to learn about how linux is put together, you'd be better served by playing with some linux-from-scratch instructions. |
| 02:52.29 | mrpull_ | agreed. |
| 02:52.42 | levi | And then throwing it away and using a real distrobution for your desktop. |
| 02:52.48 | mrpull_ | double agreed |
| 02:53.34 | mrpull_ | we can probably agree to disagree which distro is the "real one" for production |
| 02:53.52 | levi | gentoo has just as much custom magic under its hood as anything else, and what you learn when fiddling with gentoo isn't a whole lot deeper than you learn from fiddling with any other distro. |
| 02:54.17 | levi | It's just that gentoo's custom magic requires learning more arcane keywords. |
| 02:54.50 | mrpull_ | like nano -w ;-) |
| 02:55.15 | findlay | I was actually showing my roomate the virtues of a bot as versatile as ibot |
| 02:56.04 | findlay | and very nice package management tools |
| 02:56.23 | findlay | although, I guess the same arguments can be made for Debian and a couple of other distros |
| 02:56.40 | mrpull_ | i must admit i've never had much luck with binary packages in gentoo |
| 02:56.53 | levi | Yeah, other distros take a different approach to customization, but gentoo is certainly customizable. |
| 02:57.31 | levi | Though, I've heard it can fall apart if you try to configure things too differently than expected. |
| 02:58.49 | levi | The binary packages in gentoo defeat the whole customization scheme, don't they? |
| 03:00.14 | findlay | alot of it, perhaps, depends if you set much stock in gcc flags |
| 03:00.34 | levi | Well, you're stuck with the packagers gcc flags /and/ their USE flags, aren't you? |
| 03:00.42 | levi | Er, packager's |
| 03:01.13 | findlay | that's true |
| 03:01.42 | findlay | but you are going to have the same dillema with any other binary distro's packages |
| 03:01.46 | levi | Since gentoo's customizability relies on USE flags and compiling your own stuff, getting gentoo binaries defeats customization. |
| 03:02.11 | levi | Well, other distros have finer-grained packaging, so you can get some of the options that you'd be able to get via USE flags through a separate package. |
| 03:02.49 | levi | So you end up with a level of customization somewhere between gentoo-from-source and gentoo-prebuilt-binaries. |
| 03:04.28 | findlay | the most rewarding customization that I've ever done is actually distro agnostic, like writing my own init scripts and cron jobs |
| 03:04.45 | findlay | rewarding meaning that I was/am mostly a newbie (: |
| 03:05.04 | findlay | rewarding to write cron jobs and actually have them work |
| 03:05.37 | levi | Yeah. I think that's more useful customization than the sort of thing that gentoo enables over other distros. Especially for newbies. |
| 03:06.45 | findlay | but with gentoo, for the canonical argument applied and I became more comfortable with config files and changing things, unlike with fedora where it was just easier to use the GUI |
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| 03:07.47 | levi | Well, gentoo isn't the only way to go to get that. There's Debian, Slackware, etc. |
| 03:08.31 | findlay | so I used it kind of like a tutorial to teach myself how the Linux architecture worked, I guess I could have just as easily used Debian or Slackware |
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| 03:11.12 | findlay | one of the things I like about gentoo is that generally the packages are vanilla, or not distro specific enhancement patched |
| 03:12.09 | levi | I don't know about that. I understand that a lot of upstream folks hate dealing with gentoo bug reports, because gentoo often builds things differently than their standard build. |
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| 03:13.58 | scott | what do I look about gentoo? the purple section on the bottom with the cool icon and the high-res framebuffer console! |
| 03:14.14 | scott | why does ubuntu's console suck? |
| 03:14.40 | levi | What do you mean by ubuntu's console sucking? |
| 03:15.07 | findlay | Meaning differently than the build proceedures used by binary based distros? Or do the project maintainers specify how they want things done by all the standard distros' packagers? |
| 03:15.25 | scott | levi, a cool icon like that on bootup and higher res like gentoo would be cool |
| 03:15.37 | scott | and a bootup image or the cool thing fedora has |
| 03:15.44 | findlay | the project maintainers tell the distro packagers how to build their program |
| 03:15.46 | findlay | ? |
| 03:16.14 | levi | findlay: Well, they're not necessarily happy with other binary distros either. I'm just saying that gentoo is not above patching things in ebuilds. |
| 03:16.25 | findlay | true |
| 03:16.43 | findlay | I see |
| 03:17.27 | levi | scott: I enabled that stuff in gentoo, and afterwards I saw it maybe once or twice. It was a large waste of time. |
| 03:18.07 | levi | scott: I spend 99.99% of my time in X, and Ubuntu has a pretty slick X setup. |
| 03:19.40 | findlay | I always thought that fedora did the graphical boot thing so that kudzu would have a graphical interface, but the next time kudzu ran, it was just TUI, so I thought it was pointless after all, just newbie coddling (-: |
| 03:19.45 | scott | levi, same here, but you'd admit it owuld be nice if ubuntu just came that way |
| 03:20.14 | levi | scott: Nice, but I wouldn't put any sort of priority on it. |
| 03:22.37 | dataw0lf | ... Ubuntu's console sucks? |
| 03:22.42 | dataw0lf | um. It's Linux. |
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| 03:23.51 | findlay | apparently it does |
| 03:24.24 | levi | And the antecedent of 'it' is...? |
| 03:24.47 | findlay | ... Ubuntu's console sucks |
| 03:25.18 | dataw0lf | he meant the reasoning. |
| 03:26.43 | levi | Saying Ubuntu's console sucks is equivalent to saying the default Linux console sucks. Which is obviously an opinionated statement with no grounding in fact. |
| 03:26.58 | findlay | you would have to apply probabilities to the preceeding comments and apply define the antecedent by whatever language made best sense, I guess |
| 03:27.00 | dataw0lf | Agreed. |
| 03:27.43 | dataw0lf | I don't see how Ubuntu's console differs from Debian's. |
| 03:28.35 | dataw0lf | so the suckiness was based on the 'prettiness' then ? |
| 03:29.30 | findlay | occasionally I like to turn off the lights for ambience and switch to the console mode, if I understand correctly that by 'Linux console' you mean one of those 'virtual terminals' you get to by doing <ctrl>+<alt>+F[1-6] |
| 03:29.49 | dataw0lf | That's what I'd assume he was talking about. |
| 03:30.32 | levi | Time to head home. |
| 03:30.41 | findlay | later, levi |
| 03:31.30 | findlay | dataw0lf: I don't know, I didn't make the initial judgement, but do enjoy an artificial argument now and then |
| 03:31.54 | findlay | a pretty FB console would be nice though |
| 03:34.51 | dataw0lf | heh. |
| 03:35.39 | dataw0lf | speaking of, if you load a different font with consolechars, will it save on reboot ? |
| 03:36.16 | vontrapp | i think ubuntu has a bootsplash package you can install and have a pretty boot screen |
| 03:37.05 | scott | vontrapp: I've installed it w/ no luck.. |
| 03:37.08 | scott | usplash is the name |
| 03:38.12 | vontrapp | i think you may have append bootsplash to the kernel line in grub |
| 03:38.32 | dataw0lf | you do. |
| 03:39.26 | scott | nice, just found the wiki page |
| 03:40.33 | dataw0lf | ubuntuforums.org is great for info too. |
| 03:40.41 | dataw0lf | and ubuntuguide.org for various basic stuff. |
| 03:40.45 | synic | where is this usplash found? |
| 03:41.24 | scott | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/USplash |
| 03:41.24 | findlay | so is ubuntu 'mature' as a distribution? (What does that mean?) |
| 03:41.25 | scott | apparently there's something called Splashy also |
| 03:41.38 | synic | scott: where'd you get the usplash package? |
| 03:41.55 | scott | alright, so I'm having a that problem I mentioned a few days ago. whenever someone says something irssi gets messed up and I can just see a fragment of it and what I'm typing till I do ctrl-l |
| 03:42.00 | dataw0lf | scott: Depends on how you'd define 'mature' |
| 03:42.02 | dataw0lf | it's very new. |
| 03:42.06 | dataw0lf | However, it's much more stable than sid. |
| 03:42.13 | dataw0lf | regular releases. |
| 03:42.21 | dataw0lf | bustling, helpful community. |
| 03:42.21 | dataw0lf | etc |
| 03:43.27 | findlay | but how is having a heterogeny of distros not reinventing the wheel? |
| 03:43.39 | findlay | a lot of wheels |
| 03:43.42 | findlay | (: |
| 03:44.33 | vontrapp | just different kinds o wheels i guess, some people like bike wheels, others like roller blade wheels and some hot-rod wheels |
| 03:44.34 | dataw0lf | debian or *bsd for servers, ubuntu for desktop. |
| 03:44.38 | dataw0lf | that's all yah need :) |
| 03:45.14 | dataw0lf | nobody knows if consolechars -f setting is saved upon reboot? |
| 03:45.19 | dataw0lf | Guess I'll have to test it out. |
| 03:45.32 | vontrapp | no idea |
| 03:45.35 | vontrapp | let us know ;) |
| 03:45.56 | dataw0lf | hehe, I will. |
| 03:46.31 | scott | apparently usplash = splashy |
| 03:50.13 | scott | cool, rebooting to try splashing out |
| 03:50.48 | findlay | happy splashing |
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| 03:53.23 | scott | cool, worked. needs a better image though |
| 03:53.39 | dataw0lf | Nope. |
| 03:54.43 | scott | has one of those fat black and white birds |
| 03:55.37 | dataw0lf | *sigh* I should just write a script that updates me on the status of my work network so I know when the call is acomin' |
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| 03:57.30 | dataw0lf | I'll just get up early tomorrow and fix it. |
| 03:57.40 | dataw0lf | synic: ok, I'm down with some bzflag now. |
| 03:59.18 | dataw0lf | I could see the fear in his eyes through the internet. |
| 03:59.33 | Maquis | dataw0lf: why would he be afraid of you? :) |
| 03:59.55 | dataw0lf | cuz of my mad skillz!!1! |
| 03:59.56 | dataw0lf | ;) |
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| 04:19.30 | mrpull- | heheh... playing with transset |
| 04:19.46 | mrpull- | and made all of my windows 100% transparent |
| 04:20.16 | scott | aren't you supposed to just have to type transset and click a window? when I did that it didn't do anything |
| 04:20.53 | mrpull- | yeah... i did it more than once (just for fun) |
| 04:21.29 | mrpull- | you can do transset .5 for 50% transpaency |
| 04:21.34 | dataw0lf | transset <#> |
| 04:21.41 | dataw0lf | right. |
| 04:21.47 | dataw0lf | dataw0lf.org/hoary.png |
| 04:22.10 | dataw0lf | err, dataw0lf.org/image/hoary.png |
| 04:23.01 | mrpull- | data: why cant you see the xchat behind the terminal? |
| 04:23.12 | mrpull- | is the terminal "transset'ed"? |
| 04:23.31 | dataw0lf | mrpull-: that's just a error in the screenshot, you can. |
| 04:23.53 | mrpull- | cool. i didn't know that. |
| 04:27.37 | dataw0lf | heh, as you can see I had to hack up a bash script to take the screenshot because my Print Screen key shorted out. |
| 04:29.17 | dataw0lf | I guess I could map it to a key now. |
| 04:32.08 | mrpull- | is the h2g2 movie going to be worthwhile? |
| 04:34.00 | dataw0lf | looks like it |
| 04:34.35 | dataw0lf | I mean, Douglas Adams wrote the screenplay, so.. |
| 04:34.42 | dataw0lf | that gives it a hell of a good shot. |
| 04:35.24 | dataw0lf | plus, Sam Rockwell and John Malkovich are in it. That's another plus. |
| 04:36.53 | dataw0lf | anyways, off to bed. |
| 04:38.35 | mrpull- | later. |
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| 04:54.24 | Hhhhh | hello |
| 04:54.34 | indessed | Hhhhhi. |
| 05:07.43 | indessed | Anybody here who's familiar with MythTV? I'm trying to figure out ways to lower the CPU usage. (I think high CPU usage is causing skips in my recordings.) |
| 05:16.36 | xbmodder | indessed, may i ask how much memory you have> |
| 05:16.37 | xbmodder | ? |
| 05:16.46 | indessed | 512 MB |
| 05:16.53 | xbmodder | processor speed? |
| 05:16.55 | indessed | 1.2 ghz athlon |
| 05:17.21 | xbmodder | what else you running? |
| 05:17.42 | indessed | you mean at the same time as mythtv or what? |
| 05:18.26 | Maquis | indessed: amcnabb or spr? |
| 05:18.37 | Maquis | they have mythtv |
| 05:18.55 | indessed | maquis: but unfortunately every time i'm online, neither of them are :-P |
| 05:20.11 | indessed | The only thing I've figured out is reducing the video size to about 280x280 (from 480x480) which slows it down enough to watch live tv, |
| 05:20.23 | indessed | but unfortunately recordings still don't look like they're working? |
| 05:21.42 | indessed | The first few seconds (or minute or so if it's at 280x280) works okay, but then it either just skips frames terribly or goes into super-high-freakish-chipmunk-mode for the rest of the recording. |
| 05:22.19 | xbmodder | lol |
| 05:22.56 | indessed | I've searched Google several times, but the only recommendation people have for reducing CPU usage seems to be to buy a capture card with onboard mpeg encoding. |
| 05:23.40 | xbmodder | What are you recording with |
| 05:23.44 | xbmodder | codec? |
| 05:24.01 | indessed | the non-mpeg one, whatever it's called, |
| 05:24.05 | indessed | rt-something? |
| 05:24.07 | xbmodder | umm... |
| 05:24.20 | Maquis | indessed: you know where you can find them :) |
| 05:25.32 | indessed | rt-jpeg I think. |
| 05:25.38 | indessed | It saves as .nuv files. |
| 05:26.05 | indessed | I think it uses less CPU than mpeg files, but I'm not 100% sure. |
| 05:41.59 | *** part/#utah indessed (~ross@71-36-72-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 05:49.01 | LeviHome | Good evening. |
| 05:50.07 | findlay | good |
| 05:50.11 | findlay | morning about |
| 05:50.51 | LeviHome | Just about. |
| 05:51.13 | LeviHome | I finally figured out how to get my wife's Dell Axim to use its 802.11 connection. |
| 05:52.47 | findlay | and GNU/Linux is supposed to be a real OS, none of this gaming nonsense |
| 05:53.29 | LeviHome | Are there any OSes that don't have games? |
| 05:56.21 | Maquis | LeviHome: my bet is that the OSes that they stick in missiles and in mars rovers and such probably don't have games |
| 05:56.26 | Maquis | but aside from that... |
| 05:56.31 | Maquis | even emacs has games |
| 05:56.56 | LeviHome | Yeah, custom embedded OSes probably don't. |
| 05:57.14 | findlay | and emacs is the most etrocious OS there is |
| 05:57.18 | LeviHome | Any OS that hackers use will have some sort of games. :) |
| 05:57.51 | LeviHome | Well, emacs is a poor attempt to bring the feel of a Lisp Machine to unix. |
| 05:58.12 | findlay | where is lisp 'native'? |
| 05:58.20 | LeviHome | Lisp Machines. |
| 05:59.04 | findlay | Maquis: how are you? |
| 05:59.09 | LeviHome | They were very popular for a while, until market forces made the expensive custom hardware obsolete. |
| 06:00.05 | LeviHome | I've watched a video capture of one in use. It's pretty amazing for its time, and the sheer integration of the thing is still unmatched. |
| 06:00.28 | findlay | what do you mean? |
| 06:00.57 | Maquis | findlay: last i checked, i was still alive :) |
| 06:01.11 | LeviHome | Well, it runs an interface that's like a graphically-enhanced CLI. |
| 06:01.46 | findlay | like in the macintosh uber optimized for performance/aesthetics/arcaneness of interfaace? |
| 06:02.10 | LeviHome | And you can control everything via commands, but you can use the mouse to select things and do pop-up actions on the displays of stuff. |
| 06:02.34 | findlay | like squeak, perhaps |
| 06:02.39 | LeviHome | For example, if you type the beginning of a command, and the next argument is an integer, you can click on any integer on the screen to use it in that place. |
| 06:03.08 | LeviHome | It's pretty different than squeak. |
| 06:04.32 | LeviHome | You can click on any function name and edit the source, decompile it, debug it, etc. |
| 06:05.41 | LeviHome | The interaction in the Listener is like a regular CLI, except the text isn't just text; it's a textual presentation of live objects. |
| 06:05.53 | LeviHome | It scrolls up just like a regular CLI session when new stuff comes in on the bottom. |
| 06:07.45 | LeviHome | Anyway, since the entire system was written in Lisp and the source and documentation for everything was there as well and everything was dynamically connected and searchable, it was very coherent and well-integrated. |
| 06:09.14 | findlay | as compared to the toolkits in widespread use we have now in C/C++? |
| 06:11.33 | LeviHome | Well, C/C++ development is far less dynamic. |
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| 06:13.43 | LeviHome | And no one else, as far as I'm aware, has an interface quite like it. Apple was working on one for Dylan, but I think it leaned more towards standard GUI stuff. |
| 06:15.46 | findlay | the only experience I've had with something that seems simmilar to that was this high performance data analysis package from CERN written by physicists, and the GUIs were not pretty |
| 06:16.38 | findlay | it is written in C++ and includes a C++ interpreter, which was pretty nice, the only one that I know of |
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| 06:20.59 | Maquis | hmmmm... |
| 06:20.59 | Maquis | that's weird |
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| 06:23.48 | Maquis | ~lart netsplits |
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| 06:26.34 | LeviHome | Stupid netsplit. |
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| 06:41.21 | Hhhhh | hello |
| 06:41.42 | Hhhhh | i've a question. What is your guys' opinion on 64-bit distros? |
| 06:41.54 | LeviHome | I don't have one. |
| 06:41.56 | LeviHome | Sorry. |
| 06:50.04 | Maquis | Hhhhh: i've heard that there's still not a whole lot of support |
| 06:50.59 | Maquis | Hhhhh: you should ask again sometime when sjansen is around... he has a 64-bit machine... i know he was running a 64-bit distro for a while...not sure if he still is |
| 06:51.58 | Hhhhh | all right, thx Erin |
| 06:52.09 | Maquis | np |
| 06:52.52 | Maquis | "now do you see what it takes to be a manager?" |
| 06:53.13 | Hhhhh | btw congratz |
| 06:53.46 | Maquis | mm? |
| 06:55.38 | Hhhhh | on your win |
| 06:55.48 | Maquis | oh... thanks.. :) |
| 06:59.28 | LeviHome | http://lispm.dyndns.org/symbolics-screenshots/symbolics-screenshots.html |
| 07:00.15 | Maquis | hey.. LeviHome you don't happen to be on a laptop, do you? |
| 07:00.23 | LeviHome | Not at the moment. |
| 07:00.30 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 07:00.34 | Maquis | too bad... |
| 07:00.40 | LeviHome | Why's that? |
| 07:00.41 | Maquis | it'd be lighter than this magnet |
| 07:35.19 | vontrapp | ooy, i'm glad our bot isn't annoying |
| 07:35.44 | Maquis | vontrapp: ??/ |
| 07:36.33 | vontrapp | i've been in #fvwm and there's this xteddy that throws out random smileys all the time and hugs random people and declares 'yay' to things |
| 07:36.43 | vontrapp | i assume it's a bot |
| 07:36.46 | Maquis | haha |
| 07:39.30 | LeviHome | Check this out... a conceptual overview of Genera: http://lispm.dyndns.org/genera-concepts/genera.html |
| 07:40.16 | LeviHome | So? |
| 07:40.27 | Maquis | just noting |
| 07:40.48 | LeviHome | Genera is the Symbolics Lisp Machine OS. |
| 07:43.05 | LeviHome | It's a very different OS from Unix. You'll probably never get to use it, but learning about it gives some perspective to things. |
| 07:44.18 | Maquis | ah |
| 07:47.00 | LeviHome | They had their heyday in the mid-1980s, and they cost upwards of $20000. They were descendants of machines developed at the MIT AI Lab. |
| 07:48.00 | LeviHome | A lot of the fancy computer graphics of the late 80s were done on Lisp Machines. |
| 07:50.24 | LeviHome | If you read that link, you'll note that the entire system is in one memory space, and there's no kernel boundary. The source code for the entire system is also provided, and you can recompile and patch bits of it while it's running. |
| 07:52.02 | LeviHome | Crazy stuff, eh? |
| 07:52.44 | LeviHome | I'm off to bed. |
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| 14:45.18 | sjansen | Ha! Looks like emcnabb did his job too well. |
| 14:46.00 | sjansen | After harassing Dell for a couple of hours to convince them to replace some bad RAM, they finally caved. |
| 14:46.29 | sjansen | Instead of sending just one stick, however, they overnighted four sticks. |
| 14:50.27 | sjansen | Uhmmm.... What the heck is refurbished RAM? |
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| 14:51.01 | Jayce^ | sjansen, the stuff ebc sells |
| 14:58.27 | dataw0lf|w | I thought that was 'broken' RAM. |
| 15:01.39 | hans | dataw0lf|w: that's when it was brought in. when it is sold out, it is refurbished |
| 15:03.54 | dataw0lf|w | oh, so EBC takes the 'broken' RAM, then puts a 'refurbished' sticker on em. |
| 15:03.56 | dataw0lf|w | got it. |
| 15:04.09 | dataw0lf|w | I made the mistake of buying some stuff from them last summer when I moved here. |
| 15:04.37 | *** part/#utah hatchmt (~hatchmt@66.239.25.54.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 15:07.25 | Jayce^ | yeah, that is a mistake |
| 15:07.35 | neybar | I got 'lucky' a few times with EBC, but when I realized what they were doing I stopped going. I haven't been there in quite a long time. |
| 15:07.58 | neybar | esspecially since there are much better local shops |
| 15:08.06 | dataw0lf|w | eh, i didn't know where to go. |
| 15:08.19 | dataw0lf|w | Bought three hds, two of them were toasted. |
| 15:08.31 | dataw0lf|w | then it took me two hours to return them. |
| 15:08.47 | dataw0lf|w | because when I went back the woman at the counter magically didn't speak english. |
| 15:09.45 | dataw0lf|w | Needless to say, I was about to tear the whole place down around their heads. If my brother hadn't been there I probably would've lost it. |
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| 15:17.52 | jce | so what are the "better local shops?" |
| 15:22.21 | dataw0lf|w | I just go through newegg for personal stuff now. |
| 15:24.39 | sjansen | ~hug newegg |
| 15:24.42 | ibot | ACTION hugs newegg |
| 15:26.54 | neybar | in utah county I really like PC Discounters (www.pcdiscounters.com) |
| 15:32.03 | dataw0lf|w | I really haven't been able to find a good one in SLC, but newegg keeps me from looking too hard. |
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| 15:35.58 | bigdog_ut | newegg rocks |
| 15:36.17 | dataw0lf|w | yessir. |
| 15:40.32 | levi | Good morning. |
| 15:40.55 | sjansen | levi: GOOD MORNING! |
| 15:41.01 | dataw0lf|w | mornin |
| 15:41.55 | sjansen | And a bright and beautiful, cheerful, chocolate chip morning it is indeed. |
| 15:43.59 | levi | sjansen: You're looney. |
| 15:45.32 | levi | Mmm, holographic discs. |
| 15:45.34 | dataw0lf|w | is it sunny out now ? |
| 15:46.02 | levi | It's pretty cloudy here, but they're low fluffy clouds rather than really menacing ones. I'm sure that will change. |
| 15:47.47 | hans | cold front aloft pushing across from nevada today |
| 15:48.08 | hans | should be windy, maybe some isolated serious thunderstorms |
| 15:49.14 | dataw0lf|w | I was just wondering if it still looked like it was going to rain. |
| 15:50.06 | levi | I'd bet on some rain, at least. |
| 15:51.21 | dataw0lf|w | the weekend is supposed to be nice. |
| 15:52.06 | levi | I hope so. |
| 15:52.19 | levi | Last Saturday was beautiful. |
| 15:52.51 | dataw0lf|w | yeah. |
| 15:53.03 | levi | I spent most of the morning riding my bike. :) |
| 15:54.01 | dataw0lf|w | eh, I spent most of the morning recovering. |
| 15:56.30 | hans | i spent most of the morning playing with my ibook |
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| 15:56.51 | levi | Days like last saturday should really be spent outside. |
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| 15:58.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Can anyone here help me configure my router to allow port 80 traffic from the outside world to my laptop? |
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| 16:01.54 | spr | hey, does anyone know of a good howto on making a print server with cups (ie: other machines printing through it) |
| 16:02.36 | bigdog_ut | Lone_Wanderer, what type of router do you have? |
| 16:02.53 | Lone_Wanderer | D-Link |
| 16:03.06 | bigdog_ut | sorry, not familiar with d-link |
| 16:03.06 | Lone_Wanderer | DL-524 to be specific |
| 16:03.21 | bigdog_ut | there should be some documenation for it though |
| 16:03.35 | hans | spr: I've done that |
| 16:03.44 | hans | cups docs aren't so bad |
| 16:03.45 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm sure there is, I'm just not sure if what I'm looking at counts as documentation or not. It's pretty sparse. |
| 16:03.50 | hans | and it's not so hard anyhow. |
| 16:06.01 | spr | hans, I've done a bit of reading in the cups docs, and wasn't have much luck. I might have been reading the wrong doc though |
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| 16:08.29 | sjansen | Newsome: Isn't their a SCO hearing this week? |
| 16:08.47 | hans | ~grammar sjansen |
| 16:08.53 | Newsome | sjansen: yes, on Thursday at 3, I believe |
| 16:08.59 | hans | spr: maybe, not sure |
| 16:09.14 | hans | basically, you just edit cupsd.conf to allow connections from other people, and you're all set. |
| 16:09.23 | sjansen | That's kinda funny. I just can't seem to keep my they're/their/there's straight. |
| 16:09.54 | hans | spr: then, if you want the clients to see it automatically, turn on browsing |
| 16:10.06 | hans | the comments in that file are excellent |
| 16:10.07 | sjansen | I don't know why there so hard. It's not like I don't know the difference. |
| 16:10.33 | sjansen | Maybe its Russian mind control. Their trying to take over the world by destroying my grammar. |
| 16:10.36 | hans | ~tickle sjansen |
| 16:10.52 | hans | ibot, are you ok? |
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| 16:11.06 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 16:11.14 | hans | ~lart himself |
| 16:13.41 | sjansen | ~destroy hans |
| 16:13.45 | ibot | no |
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| 16:14.18 | sjansen | Not very cooperative today are we, ibot? |
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| 16:19.57 | hans | w00t 4° out there |
| 16:20.06 | levi | BTW, anyone who is interested in seeing what using Genera was like, see this page: http://lispm.dyndns.org/ |
| 16:20.47 | levi | It's got screenshots and session video captures. |
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| 16:30.23 | Maquis | ibot: destroy sjansen |
| 16:30.25 | ibot | no |
| 16:30.29 | Maquis | ibot: yes |
| 16:30.30 | ibot | You don't say! |
| 16:30.42 | sjansen | ~nuke Maquis |
| 16:30.50 | sjansen | ~fry Maquis |
| 16:30.52 | ibot | ACTION grabs Maquis and fries him on his BFCooker9000 |
| 16:30.54 | Maquis | ~timeout ibot for not obeying |
| 16:30.56 | ibot | ACTION grabs ibot by the ear, drags him to the timeout chair, and forces him to sit there for 20 minutes for not obeying. |
| 16:31.07 | Maquis | ~cook sjansen |
| 16:31.09 | ibot | ACTION throws sjansen in a big pan with veggies inside and cooks sjansen on 350 for an hour |
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| 16:56.11 | spr | yay! cups printing with pre and post scripts for print accounting! |
| 16:57.17 | sjansen | ~congratulate spr |
| 16:57.20 | ibot | ACTION congratulates spr on being a new owner of a $500 brick. |
| 16:57.34 | hans | ibot: it's a CUPS-enabled brick, you insensitive clod! |
| 16:57.50 | Jayce^ | for those not watching --> Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger Named Pope Benedict XVI |
| 16:58.29 | mrpull | rats... i was hopping they'd be deadlocked for months or years |
| 16:58.33 | mrpull | that'd make it more interesting |
| 16:58.44 | hans | Is he old? |
| 16:58.54 | hans | maybe he'll die next year and mrpull will get his wish |
| 16:58.57 | mrpull | once they decided to take the roof off the building they were in |
| 16:59.05 | mrpull | to speed up the process |
| 16:59.15 | Jayce^ | 78 |
| 16:59.38 | sjansen | german |
| 17:01.51 | Maquis | Jayce^: conservative or liberal? |
| 17:02.47 | Jayce^ | quite conservative :) |
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| 17:03.11 | Jayce^ | "We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one's own ego and one's own desires," said Ratzinger, 78, who has been the Vatican's chief overseer of doctrine since 1981. |
| 17:03.11 | Jayce^ | "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism," he said, making clear that he disagrees with that view. |
| 17:03.11 | Maquis | mmk |
| 17:03.41 | Maquis | good... |
| 17:04.10 | dataw0lf|w | oh, yeah, great. |
| 17:04.44 | Bradipo | So, anyone know why they change their name once they become Pope? |
| 17:05.06 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, for a couple reasons |
| 17:05.12 | Jayce^ | one, leaving the old life |
| 17:05.20 | Jayce^ | also, it usually 'defines their mission' |
| 17:05.29 | Bradipo | Interesting. |
| 17:05.38 | Jayce^ | often named after a saint whose fits the definition of what they will be focusing on |
| 17:06.36 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 17:06.45 | Bradipo | So I assume his mission will be like St Benedict or something? |
| 17:06.46 | Jayce^ | http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintb02.htm |
| 17:06.52 | Jayce^ | benedict |
| 17:09.56 | mrpull | i didn't realize they got to pick their name until yesterday |
| 17:10.46 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 17:11.00 | Maquis | that explains why there are so many popes with the exact same name (with different numbers) |
| 17:11.48 | Maquis | wow... picked on the 3rd round of votes... |
| 17:11.49 | Maquis | not bad |
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| 17:12.01 | hans | is that like the 3rd draft of the NBA? |
| 17:13.47 | mrpull | i wouldn't say so |
| 17:14.19 | hans | anyone ever done any cocoa? |
| 17:14.47 | mrpull | hans: i don't care for hot drinks ;-) |
| 17:14.50 | Maquis | hans: hot... with marshmallows |
| 17:15.03 | hans | as in os x gui programming. :) |
| 17:15.12 | hans | levi: you? what about objective C? |
| 17:15.24 | hans | owning a mac wouldn't be complete until I program for it. |
| 17:15.26 | levi | A little bit. |
| 17:15.53 | hans | but I'm trying to decide whether to do objective C (which I've never toyed with) or just use the ruby cocoa stuff |
| 17:16.30 | levi | Try out Objective C. It probably will feel pretty natural once you get past the syntax. |
| 17:16.44 | hans | what's it like? what's cool about it? |
| 17:16.54 | hans | what's it most like? |
| 17:17.14 | levi | It's like C + Smalltalk. |
| 17:18.10 | levi | Which lets you write speed-critical and library-interface functions in C, but have a high-level dynamic object system. |
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| 17:19.35 | levi | Try out Apple's 'Currency Converter' tutorial, at least. It'll give you a feel for how their dev stuff works. |
| 17:20.29 | hans | ok. is it included in the Xcode installation or is it online somewhere? |
| 17:22.03 | levi | It should be in the Xcode docs, I think. |
| 17:22.46 | levi | It's also online, if you can't find it quickly on your drive. |
| 17:27.07 | Uncle_Jesse | man - it sucks to be the only one using version control at a company |
| 17:27.26 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: Yeah, but it probably sucks less than not using it at all. |
| 17:29.33 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: certainly - at least my rear end is covered |
| 17:30.18 | Uncle_Jesse | We outsource to India for a few of our projects and another guy's project was supposed to be written for MySQL but was "accidentally" written for MSSQL server |
| 17:30.31 | levi | Heh, 'accidentally' |
| 17:30.46 | Uncle_Jesse | If he had forced them to use revision control with e-mail monitoring of changes that would have been stopped pretty early in the process |
| 17:33.14 | neybar | yeah I had to deal with an app like that... I convinced my boss that the developers be the ones that maintained the code. |
| 17:33.54 | Uncle_Jesse | neybar: that's they way it should be done. |
| 17:33.58 | Uncle_Jesse | http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/game_andrew.shtml |
| 17:41.01 | sjansen | they're cheap, provided you have proper project management |
| 17:41.25 | Maquis | yeah... but interns are cheap too... |
| 17:41.48 | sjansen | they're cheap and experienced (provided you do your homework and have proper project management) |
| 17:42.01 | Maquis | true... |
| 17:42.03 | hans | Maquis: but interns don't speak indian languages |
| 17:42.53 | Maquis | i can understand if you're not concerned about your code getting out (in-house or open-source code), but India doesn't have most of the copyright rules and such that the US does |
| 17:43.32 | Maquis | technically, they can take the code and information that they write for a company, and release it themselves as well, because of the laws... i've heard that it's happened... |
| 17:43.39 | Maquis | hans: very true... |
| 17:43.45 | Maquis | if i learn punjabi, would i have a higher chance of getting hired? |
| 17:43.50 | Uncle_Jesse | Maquis: yes, but can you get 100's of interns at a time to work on a high-demand, short-term project? |
| 17:44.12 | Maquis | Uncle_Jesse: amazon has > 130 interns this summer |
| 17:44.16 | Uncle_Jesse | Maquis: if you move to India you might |
| 17:44.33 | Maquis | but if i move to india, i'll get paid in peanuts |
| 17:44.43 | Uncle_Jesse | That's why we don't hire interns |
| 17:45.04 | Maquis | the fact that you can't get hundreds of interns? |
| 17:45.09 | Uncle_Jesse | It's usually still cheaper to hire overseas |
| 17:45.13 | Maquis | neybar: ??? |
| 17:45.15 | Maquis | oops |
| 17:45.17 | Maquis | Newsome: ??? |
| 17:45.23 | Maquis | grrr |
| 17:45.28 | Maquis | stupid overseas people |
| 17:46.14 | Uncle_Jesse | Maquis: the real reason is there's too much beuracracy in large companies and the ones that actually know the best method of hiring programmers aren't the ones making the decisions |
| 17:46.28 | neybar | no kidding |
| 17:46.36 | Maquis | hi neybar |
| 17:46.52 | Uncle_Jesse | I can't tell you how many things I "have" to do that don't make sense |
| 17:47.02 | Uncle_Jesse | and would cost a lot less doing another way |
| 17:47.15 | sjansen | Maquis: Newsome was pointing out that bringing hundreds of interns up to speed in a short time is nigh unto impossible. |
| 17:47.32 | sjansen | Pretty hard with experienced people too, though. |
| 17:47.38 | Maquis | Uncle_Jesse: yeah... i guess the internships i've had, as far as i can see, developers (or former developers) were doing the interviews, and sometimes also the ones making the decision |
| 17:47.44 | Newsome | http://slashdot.org/books/980805/1148235.shtml |
| 17:47.59 | Maquis | sjansen: yeah... seems like bringing people who speak punjabi up to speed would be about the same difficulty... |
| 17:48.04 | sjansen | "stupid overseas people"? If they can do my job as well and cheaper, they deserve the job. |
| 17:48.26 | Newsome | Maquis: with software engineering (glorified programming), throwing more people at a job does not necessarily get it done faster |
| 17:48.30 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith2@64.50.35.114.2O7.net) |
| 17:48.53 | Maquis | Newsome: yeah... so... what's the point of throwing tons of people from india at it? |
| 17:48.57 | Newsome | Maquis: Also, warm bodies does not equate to lines of code (good or bad) |
| 17:49.26 | Maquis | i thought throwing more people only increased the number of meetings needed |
| 17:49.37 | sjansen | exactly |
| 17:49.50 | Newsome | Maquis: The point is that lots of people from India may or may not be helpful to the project, but they will certainly increase the complexity of the task. |
| 17:50.15 | Newsome | The "right" thing to do is to get good people to manage the project, then have them hire good people to do the work. |
| 17:50.22 | sjansen | The more people you have the harder it is to spread information. Information is the life blood of successful projects, especially in IT. |
| 17:50.51 | Newsome | If the "right people" are from India, it could be beneficial to offshore the work. |
| 17:50.58 | Newsome | Note that I said "IF" |
| 17:51.02 | Uncle_Jesse | Good management/project management is key |
| 17:51.13 | Maquis | i guess i'm just bitter at the whole outsourcing thing because i'm still a little intern who is trying to get all the cheap jobs... |
| 17:51.39 | Uncle_Jesse | I haven't read that - need to read it |
| 17:51.41 | sjansen | Outsourcing really isn't your primary source of competition. |
| 17:51.46 | Uncle_Jesse | I have taken Software Engineering courses though |
| 17:51.51 | Maquis | sjansen: true... |
| 17:51.56 | Uncle_Jesse | meaning true software engineering, not just programming |
| 17:52.15 | sjansen | Other interns and the flood of less skilled people that jumped in during the bubble is your competition. |
| 17:52.37 | sjansen | Plus unskilled people jumping in now if you want to do something easy like PHP. |
| 17:52.43 | levi | You mean the bubble folks haven't all moved on to bartending yet? |
| 17:53.06 | Uncle_Jesse | We still hire locals - we just outsource for the projects that come "all of the sudden" that need a quick surge of developers that will fade away quickly |
| 17:53.16 | vontrapp | x.org does transparency and xfree86 does not, correct? |
| 17:53.29 | Maquis | Uncle_Jesse: that's good |
| 17:54.05 | sjansen | Maquis: But not because of protectionism. Good because it make communication easier, preserves institutional knowledge long term. |
| 17:54.06 | levi | vontrapp: x.org has the extensions that allow you to use a compositing manager, yes. |
| 17:54.13 | Uncle_Jesse | Besides, our company's IT department isn't the type of company a programmer would want to work for as an intern |
| 17:54.26 | Maquis | sjansen: yeah.. yeah... :) |
| 17:54.28 | Uncle_Jesse | it most likely won't prove anything to the big software firms out there |
| 17:54.30 | Maquis | Uncle_Jesse: in what way? |
| 17:54.40 | levi | vontrapp: Whether they will work acceptably for you is another matter. |
| 17:54.45 | Uncle_Jesse | It will give you experience, but we're no Amazon, Google, or Microsoft |
| 17:54.56 | Uncle_Jesse | you want to work for a software company, where programmers are bottom line |
| 17:55.05 | Maquis | the place i worked for 3 summers wasn't a big place --- tiny little place, actually... but it was a good bit of starting experience |
| 17:55.24 | Uncle_Jesse | We are just a Media Company - our reporters/anchors, and press people are our bottom line |
| 17:55.25 | vontrapp | anywhere i can go to learn all the basics of how it all works? |
| 17:56.05 | Maquis | Uncle_Jesse: wheree i worked, we were a bunch of medical clinics... the docs were in charge... |
| 17:56.24 | levi | vontrapp: Sorry, you'll have to google for it. I don't have any bookmarks that'd be helpful. |
| 17:56.48 | Maquis | the nicest thing is that if for some reason i can't get a non-VB job after graduation, they've promised that they'll take me to work there... |
| 17:56.52 | Uncle_Jesse | I'm not saying it won't help, but it would be better to try a company where the programmers are bottom-line |
| 17:56.57 | levi | vontrapp: But my last experience with it was that it's not ready for the mainstream yet, possibly unless you have the same video card the developers do. |
| 17:56.58 | Maquis | true... |
| 17:57.05 | Maquis | Uncle_Jesse: that's what i'm doing this summer |
| 17:57.09 | Maquis | and i'm way excited about that |
| 17:57.34 | Uncle_Jesse | Maquis: where at? |
| 17:57.39 | Maquis | amazon |
| 17:57.51 | *** join/#utah usynic (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 17:58.03 | Uncle_Jesse | I'm jealous - you'll have to hook me up some day |
| 17:58.09 | Maquis | haha |
| 17:58.20 | Maquis | :) it's going to be a pretty sweet summer |
| 17:58.24 | Uncle_Jesse | I write in Perl/Mason - I'd fit right in |
| 17:58.37 | Maquis | they took me even though i've never done anything with perl |
| 17:58.41 | Maquis | we'll see how that goes |
| 17:58.58 | levi | Alas, now you'll have to learn it. ;) |
| 17:59.18 | Maquis | i've been meaning to learn it... and just haven't been able to find the time |
| 17:59.22 | Maquis | so, it'll be good |
| 17:59.27 | Maquis | assuming that's what i end up working with |
| 17:59.38 | Maquis | i could end up with C, which'd be nice too |
| 17:59.39 | levi | For some definition of 'good', perhaps. ;) |
| 17:59.52 | Uncle_Jesse | Maquis: it's you interns I have to compete with ;-) |
| 17:59.59 | levi | Hmm. I'm not sure which would be worse to work with. |
| 18:00.05 | Maquis | Uncle_Jesse: haha... :) |
| 18:00.09 | levi | Probably C. |
| 18:00.43 | Maquis | levi: despite cs345, i really like C |
| 18:00.51 | levi | It really sucks to work with other people's C code. |
| 18:01.07 | Maquis | i believe i noticed that with cs345 |
| 18:01.23 | Uncle_Jesse | I prefer Java to C, but for powerful projects C is nice |
| 18:01.24 | levi | It really sucks to work with other people's perl code, too. |
| 18:01.31 | Uncle_Jesse | I prefer Perl to all though |
| 18:01.35 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: What do you mean by 'powerful'? |
| 18:01.40 | neybar | Maquis: you need to start coming to NUPM (and PLUG for that matter) |
| 18:01.58 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: I mean you can get into the internals of a system more |
| 18:01.59 | levi | C is only nice if you want to interface directly with hardware on a C-based platform like Unix. |
| 18:02.05 | Maquis | neybar: yes... i'll be coming in the fall... at least to plug... possibly nupm as well |
| 18:02.13 | levi | Otherwise, C is crap. |
| 18:02.43 | Maquis | i'll need to figure out by that time how to get there.... |
| 18:02.47 | Maquis | but i will be going..; |
| 18:02.51 | Uncle_Jesse | I like C++ better than C though |
| 18:03.01 | Maquis | until then, topher will be going (hopefully) to represent uug... |
| 18:03.20 | levi | Well, C++ has some advantages over C, and some disadvantages. I pretty strongly dislike it, though. |
| 18:05.23 | dataw0lf|w | I like C. But I like doing low level hackery. |
| 18:06.28 | levi | Static, weak type systems suck. |
| 18:08.37 | levi | I program in C at work, and it's tolerable for embedded systems projects. |
| 18:08.53 | levi | I really don't think it's well-suited to that application, though. |
| 18:10.37 | levi | Maquis: Because it's a pretty weak language. Doesn't do very much to help you out. Provides lots of ways to make your life miserable. |
| 18:13.23 | levi | Its advantages are that it's relatively simple; can produce fast, compact code; and integrates well with Unix. |
| 18:14.41 | levi | That's about it, though. And the last point is tied to Unix, which is not really all that hot either. It just sucks less than other available alternatives. |
| 18:14.56 | levi | And now I'm going to get some lunch. Mmmm. |
| 18:17.03 | Maquis | hey! |
| 18:17.39 | Uncle_Jesse | ~whaleslap sjansen |
| 18:17.42 | ibot | ACTION slaps sjansen upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 18:20.12 | Uncle_Jesse | ~defend |
| 18:20.13 | ibot | ACTION revokes what he just said and stands in front of uncle_jesse like a big wall |
| 18:24.11 | *** join/#utah findlay (~justin@65.203.174.134) |
| 18:24.28 | findlay | ~lart manti telephone as many times as you like |
| 18:48.15 | *** join/#utah bonez41 (~aint@c-67-166-77-14.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:50.27 | *** join/#utah synic|w (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 18:53.55 | sjansen | ~educate levi |
| 18:53.57 | ibot | ACTION teaches levi the basics, including how to RTM. |
| 18:54.34 | bonez41 | debian, gnome? my task switcher has failed...so I can't see any of my icons on the task bar...how do I restart all that? |
| 18:55.39 | sjansen | Actually, on second thought I can't disagree much with levi. Everything he says is true. |
| 18:55.44 | sjansen | But I still love C. |
| 18:59.10 | levi | sjansen: Why? |
| 18:59.29 | levi | I like that C provides me with employment. |
| 19:06.37 | *** join/#utah tewk (tewk@192.41.88.101) |
| 19:07.31 | sjansen | I love the simplicity of C. |
| 19:07.59 | sjansen | I like the rigor, too, under certain conditions. |
| 19:08.24 | sjansen | It's a mental game, kinda. |
| 19:11.17 | *** join/#utah adminsmurf (~ndhanks@smurf.geneva.com) |
| 19:12.42 | adminsmurf | I got someone trying to breakinto my system using ssh right now. I'm watching syslog. |
| 19:12.54 | Maquis | adminsmurf: fun! any cool names? |
| 19:13.08 | adminsmurf | IP 80.48.236.2, grodzisko.com |
| 19:13.38 | *** join/#utah spiderbiter (~spiderbit@38.119.177.194) |
| 19:13.38 | Jayce^ | just dictionary attack? or what? |
| 19:13.39 | sjansen | Is that the box we're supposed to break into? |
| 19:13.45 | Jayce^ | have they actually gotten into it? |
| 19:13.53 | Maquis | sjansen: yup |
| 19:13.55 | Maquis | let's go :) |
| 19:14.22 | adminsmurf | Just your usual, root, www, web, sales, etc |
| 19:14.23 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 19:14.27 | Maquis | how do you know if they've gotten in? |
| 19:14.50 | Maquis | sjansen: party pooper! |
| 19:15.34 | adminsmurf | sshd reports connections |
| 19:16.42 | adminsmurf | Yup, dictionary attack |
| 19:18.04 | adminsmurf | Her is one - resin |
| 19:18.11 | adminsmurf | Here is one - resin |
| 19:18.32 | *** join/#utah usynic (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:18.57 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 19:19.24 | dataw0lf|w | adminsmurf: get used to it. |
| 19:19.42 | adminsmurf | scan stopped |
| 19:19.49 | adminsmurf | Didn't last very long |
| 19:19.55 | sjansen | Pretty sure he his. adminsmurf's been doing the admin thing for more than a coupla' weeks now. |
| 19:20.28 | *** join/#utah bonez41 (~aint@c-67-166-77-14.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:20.42 | dataw0lf|w | then why the announcement? |
| 19:20.52 | sjansen | Boredom? |
| 19:21.46 | adminsmurf | First scan I acutally got to watch, most I see after that fact |
| 19:21.49 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@c-67-161-219-228.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:23.10 | dataw0lf|w | ah, indeed. |
| 19:23.29 | sjansen | Quick vote: should I write my XSLT using push or pull for the general design? |
| 19:23.43 | Maquis | XSLT? |
| 19:23.47 | Maquis | ~xslt |
| 19:23.48 | ibot | it has been said that xslt is the Extended Stylesheet Language Transformations language, or at http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt, or useful for converting XML into HTML, or http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/1/15/1562/95011 |
| 19:24.16 | Maquis | sjansen: what do you mean about using push or pull for it? |
| 19:25.17 | sjansen | Should I have my xsl:template's pulling tagsets or pushing tagsets to other templates? |
| 19:26.06 | dataw0lf|w | pulling. |
| 19:26.56 | Maquis | tug-of-war? |
| 19:26.58 | Maquis | yay! |
| 19:27.03 | sjansen | I'm leaning toward pull myself. |
| 19:27.31 | sjansen | Maquis: Your strategy isn't very effective in a tug-o'-war. |
| 19:27.51 | dataw0lf|w | that's what happens when you push! HA! |
| 19:28.05 | Maquis | sjansen: i like tug-of-war... but you have to know how to play correctly |
| 19:28.32 | Maquis | the correct thing is to pull really hard for a few seconds, then throw the rope at your opponent and watch them go tumbling |
| 19:28.51 | Maquis | dataw0lf|w: that wasn't very nice! |
| 19:30.18 | dataw0lf|w | I've never been accused of being nice. |
| 19:30.58 | lukfugl | I like taking away peoples excuses |
| 19:31.17 | dataw0lf|w | I said it prior to you saying it, so the excuse still stands. |
| 19:31.20 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w was nice to me once too |
| 19:31.30 | lukfugl | yes, but you can't use it *again* :) |
| 19:31.43 | dataw0lf|w | oh, I got it. |
| 19:31.44 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: what you did to Maquis wasn't very nive |
| 19:31.50 | lukfugl | or nice, either |
| 19:32.06 | dataw0lf|w | I've never been accused of being nice. |
| 19:32.09 | dataw0lf|w | By anyone that matters. |
| 19:32.20 | lukfugl | oooh |
| 19:32.22 | dataw0lf|w | ah, I win. |
| 19:32.23 | lukfugl | heh |
| 19:32.27 | dataw0lf|w | ;) |
| 19:32.37 | dataw0lf|w | I'm just joking, I'm sure you matter.. somewhere. |
| 19:33.06 | sjansen | Pull it is. |
| 19:33.11 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-213.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 19:33.21 | vontrapp | that was wierd |
| 19:33.27 | vontrapp | sjansen: what is your xslt for? |
| 19:34.14 | sjansen | tranforming XML, of course |
| 19:34.41 | vontrapp | right, but you're taking a poll on push or pull, what's the specific usage? |
| 19:35.04 | sjansen | Rendering docbook like markup to PDF. |
| 19:35.33 | jsmith | Mmmmn... docbook... |
| 19:35.34 | sjansen | I was worried about unexpected interactions resulting in strange styling, but realized that's what a DTD/Schema is for. |
| 19:35.38 | dataw0lf|w | Nice. |
| 19:36.22 | vontrapp | i would say pull |
| 19:36.22 | jsmith | Exactly... |
| 19:36.53 | vontrapp | unless you're wanting to push into some static files... |
| 19:37.21 | vontrapp | e.g. like a once a day update or something |
| 19:45.11 | emcnabb | anyone know of any good graphing tools for sar? I've searched around a bit but haven't found anything very good yet |
| 19:47.42 | Maquis | mornin emcnabb |
| 19:48.54 | emcnabb | hello |
| 19:49.23 | Maquis | how goes it? |
| 19:49.32 | Maquis | you wanna take a cs345 test for me? |
| 19:51.08 | bonez41 | hi Maquis |
| 19:51.15 | Maquis | hi bonez41 |
| 19:52.33 | vontrapp | hmm, no timezone niftyness in mysql |
| 19:54.15 | Jayce^ | http://halls.lug-nut.com/gallery/jayce/Computers/WoW-run.jpg?width=1024 |
| 19:54.21 | Jayce^ | was playing wow the other night |
| 19:54.36 | Jayce^ | other wow players will find it humourus |
| 19:54.38 | sjansen | NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! |
| 19:55.02 | lukfugl | heh |
| 19:55.10 | emcnabb | no more WOW |
| 19:55.12 | emcnabb | please |
| 19:55.18 | Jayce^ | bwahahaha |
| 19:55.19 | lukfugl | is that your character speaking? |
| 19:55.22 | Jayce^ | good thing you don't work here |
| 19:55.22 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:55.24 | Jayce^ | my main |
| 19:55.32 | Jayce^ | 46 pally |
| 19:55.32 | sjansen | Oh, we get enough of it here. |
| 19:55.40 | sjansen | ~kick Jayce^ |
| 19:55.42 | ibot | bugger off sod! |
| 19:55.42 | emcnabb | over 1/2 of my co-workers play it all the time |
| 19:55.46 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, don't have much time |
| 19:55.49 | Jayce^ | emcnabb, same ehre |
| 19:55.49 | Jayce^ | here |
| 19:56.02 | Maquis | (judging from the gurulabs blogs) |
| 19:56.04 | sjansen | ~muzzle Jayce^ |
| 19:56.10 | emcnabb | sjansen: thanks |
| 19:56.31 | Maquis | ~lart Jayce^ |
| 19:56.44 | emcnabb | that won't convince me to play :-) |
| 19:57.05 | lukfugl | subscription cost is what would kill me |
| 19:57.19 | Jayce^ | $15 a month was a big negative for me... |
| 19:57.22 | Jayce^ | but it's #@$@ addicting |
| 19:57.58 | emcnabb | $15 / month though isn't much compared to the other things I pay for |
| 19:59.00 | sjansen | Yeah, but you get more utility out of your Linode, for example. |
| 19:59.05 | bonez41 | what is the game? |
| 19:59.12 | emcnabb | sjansen: very true |
| 19:59.15 | bonez41 | WordofWisdom? |
| 19:59.15 | Jayce^ | World of Warcraft |
| 19:59.22 | bonez41 | World of Warcraft.... |
| 19:59.25 | bonez41 | ok... |
| 19:59.29 | Jayce^ | sjansen, who needs a linode when you work for a hosting company :) |
| 19:59.39 | sjansen | heh |
| 20:02.58 | vontrapp | ~lart mysql for lack of timezone functionality |
| 20:06.44 | jsmith | vontrapp: Amen! |
| 20:08.31 | sjansen | "[...] even the most grizzled XSLT veteran eat analgesics by the bucketfu." |
| 20:11.27 | levi | Heh. I can believe that. |
| 20:11.43 | sjansen | ~lart xsltproc and its quirks |
| 20:11.56 | sjansen | ~botsnack |
| 20:11.56 | ibot | sjansen: thanks |
| 20:12.09 | vontrapp | ph34r my buk37-fu |
| 20:13.44 | levi | sjansen: Have you looked at DSSSL? |
| 20:15.25 | sjansen | XSLT is accepted by my bosses, widely used, and understood by the developers we will probably contract to do part of this work. |
| 20:18.42 | levi | DSSSL seems like a better fit to docbook. |
| 20:19.04 | sjansen | It's not docbook. But the idea's the same. |
| 20:20.02 | levi | Ahh, okay. |
| 20:20.13 | emcnabb | vim keybindings in firefox are nice |
| 20:20.16 | emcnabb | ah... |
| 20:22.26 | vontrapp | emcnabb: i used to have an extension that did that, then a new version of firefox broke it |
| 20:22.43 | vontrapp | i miss it :( what do you use now? |
| 20:23.44 | emcnabb | http://www.calmar.ws/firefox/index.php |
| 20:24.02 | emcnabb | it uses keyconfig |
| 20:24.14 | emcnabb | I'm using Firefox 1.0.3 and it works fine |
| 20:25.37 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 20:27.01 | vontrapp | it rains... |
| 20:28.06 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@byu147137wks.byu.edu) |
| 20:33.16 | mrpull | i like the idea of using j and k to move down and up |
| 20:33.23 | mrpull | will it break gmail |
| 20:33.24 | mrpull | ? |
| 20:33.42 | vontrapp | it doesn't do anything when you're in a text field |
| 20:35.49 | mrpull | gmail has keyboard short cuts in the inbox |
| 20:36.11 | mrpull | i'll give it a try and find out |
| 21:01.04 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:10.54 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 21:11.15 | levi | It's really coming down here. |
| 21:12.58 | bucky | yay!! |
| 21:13.14 | bucky | more snow! |
| 21:16.54 | levi | Boo. |
| 21:17.18 | levi | We don't need more snow. From what I understand, we're approaching flood danger levels now. |
| 21:18.00 | bucky | i want 5 more years of this so the glen canyon dam will wash out like it almost did in '83 |
| 21:18.06 | Jayce^ | snow, lucky stiffs |
| 21:18.39 | bucky | and flush twice when it gets to vegas and hoover dam |
| 21:19.51 | fozz | Whoa. |
| 21:21.13 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 21:33.49 | mheath | I've got so much junk and a bunch of it doens't work, and even more is worthless. |
| 21:33.50 | emcnabb | just rain here right now, but it's really coming down |
| 21:34.16 | sjansen | mheath: throw it out in the rain!\ |
| 21:34.42 | levi | Then it will all not work and be worthless, and you can then just trash it. |
| 21:34.48 | levi | Problem solved! |
| 21:34.58 | vontrapp | hmm, those linux hdtv cards are now illegal (to buy, anyway) |
| 21:35.29 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~scott@216.126.221.115) |
| 21:35.49 | mheath | Anyone want some Pentium I computers? :) |
| 21:35.55 | sjansen | vontrapp: Says who? |
| 21:36.10 | sjansen | Isn't supposed to kick in for a coupla' months. |
| 21:36.12 | vontrapp | wasn't it april 16th this year that the law went into effect? |
| 21:36.23 | sjansen | If it isn't overthrown by the courts soon. |
| 21:37.14 | mheath | I have no working CD-ROM drives...... |
| 21:37.28 | Jayce^ | mheath, save them for the surplus swap meet |
| 21:37.36 | dataw0lf|w | jeez. |
| 21:37.45 | mheath | Finally got a monitor, though! |
| 21:37.48 | dataw0lf|w | don't they give away cd-rom drives at the local homeless shelter nowadays? |
| 21:38.00 | mheath | dataw0lf, I can probably get one for free tomorrow at work |
| 21:38.10 | mheath | Just the one I tried to get for free yesterday doesn't work :) |
| 21:38.12 | dataw0lf|w | you work at the homeless shelter? |
| 21:38.20 | mheath | No. |
| 21:38.31 | dataw0lf|w | my logic is irrefutable. |
| 21:38.36 | levi | Jayce^: Saving my stuff for the surplus swap meet was not very successful last year. ;) |
| 21:38.52 | sjansen | vontrapp: That's why bbeattie is making the rounds. http://www.eff.org/broadcastflag/ |
| 21:38.56 | mheath | "Surplus swap meet"? |
| 21:38.59 | dataw0lf|w | superior computers? heh. |
| 21:39.41 | levi | mheath: A bunch of guys bring their oldcomputer junk to a meetup. It sits there on the table while people examine it, and then you either take it home or dump it at DI. ;) |
| 21:39.54 | mheath | dataw0lf, I'd laugh at the name, too, but I actually like their stuff |
| 21:40.07 | levi | Hmm, some dialog box stole a space. |
| 21:40.12 | dataw0lf|w | that's because you work there and get handmedowns. |
| 21:40.15 | mheath | Prices are very good, and the warranties unbeatable. Our warranties are the reason we get so much business |
| 21:40.37 | mheath | dataw0lf, actaully, no. I have an unpaid internship during school hours |
| 21:40.47 | mheath | I didn't get free stuff. I offered to stay a few hours extra to get some stuff. |
| 21:41.20 | dataw0lf|w | internship? that's pretty cool. |
| 21:41.55 | dataw0lf|w | at my school the only internships we had were for the crack dealers at the park across the street. |
| 21:42.09 | dataw0lf|w | I kid. But, the tech department in our school was crap. |
| 21:42.16 | mheath | Haha. My school district (Weber) has been setting up a lot of internships lately. |
| 21:42.31 | mrpull | mheath: I knew a guy that worked at a computer store... he always had the most up to date computer |
| 21:42.36 | mheath | The Ogden Standard Examiner ran an article about it a few days ago. |
| 21:42.52 | mheath | mrpull, haha, not like ours |
| 21:43.06 | mheath | Neither the owner or the store manager (although the owners usually at the store managing) have very nice computers |
| 21:43.09 | mrpull | it turned out he was "borrowed" the latest gear from the shelves and ran it at home until the next gen stuff came out |
| 21:43.26 | mrpull | then he put it back on the shelf like it never had been used. |
| 21:43.39 | dataw0lf|w | I can get next gen stuff from a high school buddy who now works at OE for dirt cheap. |
| 21:43.39 | mrpull | (i seem to recall he got fired ) |
| 21:44.18 | mrpull | OE? |
| 21:44.41 | dataw0lf|w | Obsidian Entertainment |
| 21:44.52 | dataw0lf|w | He stayed the course and actually became a game developer. |
| 21:45.07 | mrpull | ahhh... ok... Outlook Express didn't make sense |
| 21:45.18 | dataw0lf|w | hehe. |
| 21:45.29 | mrpull | he works for dirt cheap? or you get stuff dirt cheap? |
| 21:45.35 | bonez39 | any of you run vnc to remotely control another system? |
| 21:45.45 | dataw0lf|w | I get stuff dirt chip. |
| 21:45.53 | mrpull | sweet. do you share the love? |
| 21:46.00 | dataw0lf|w | I might be able to. |
| 21:46.18 | dataw0lf|w | I think Nvidia just gave them an upgrade, so he'll be contacting me soon with his uber workstations. |
| 21:46.32 | mrpull | very cool. |
| 21:46.55 | mrpull | bonez: I have, but now I use RDP for windows |
| 21:47.03 | dataw0lf|w | yeah, he's a good friend. We were all up in the quake and half life mods together. |
| 21:48.43 | mheath | Anyone know a bootable-floppy-disk based Linux system that will do stress tests? |
| 21:49.06 | mheath | I got a variety of used hardware that may or may not work, so I want to do some stress tests |
| 21:49.29 | mrpull | memtest86 will test the ram (and to some extent cpu and mobo) |
| 21:49.47 | mheath | Well, my biggest concern is hard drives |
| 21:49.59 | mheath | I'd like to have rapid HDD read/writes |
| 21:50.59 | dataw0lf|w | http://www.liap.eu.org/ |
| 21:51.39 | dataw0lf|w | http://www.angelfire.com/linux/floorzat/2diskXwin.htm |
| 21:52.10 | mrpull | just team them all up in some wacky raid config and if one dies... oh well ;-) |
| 21:52.42 | mheath | To do that, I'd need a raid controller :) |
| 21:53.34 | sjansen | mheath: messy software based raid is faster than all but high-end raid controllers, and quite reliable |
| 21:53.45 | sjansen | (on linux, anyway) |
| 21:55.22 | mrpull | even better... use drbd to do "network raid" |
| 21:55.52 | mheath | I'm thinking that maybe a "dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/whatever" will do the trick for the HDD stress tests. |
| 21:56.19 | mheath | Doesn't GNU dd make sure that things copy sucessfully? |
| 21:56.21 | dataw0lf|w | how about hdparm -t ? |
| 21:57.50 | mheath | That's pretty quick, isn't it? |
| 21:58.22 | dataw0lf|w | Yes. |
| 21:58.24 | mheath | I've had harddrives work fine for a day or two after I install stuff on them, then die |
| 21:58.42 | dataw0lf|w | stop buying crap hardware then. I mean, c'mon, you get what you pay for. |
| 21:58.55 | mheath | Hahaha :) With that logic, I'd get nothing. |
| 21:59.24 | dataw0lf|w | patience is a virtue. Save up. |
| 22:01.04 | mheath | I am, actually. Everything I currently have, I got for free. |
| 22:03.25 | dataw0lf|w | good stuff. |
| 22:06.00 | sjansen | no it isn't, the little leech is a drag on society |
| 22:06.11 | sjansen | his free loading is pushing up the price of hardware for the rest of us |
| 22:06.19 | mrpull | whoa... |
| 22:06.26 | sjansen | I say we go up to his house, take his stuff, and torch it! |
| 22:06.32 | vontrapp | snow!! snow in provo!! what's with this wacky weather! |
| 22:07.23 | sjansen | (the house that is, the stuff we keep and distribute among ourselves) |
| 22:07.24 | mheath | Some guy brought a "Gateway 2000" in to my work last night |
| 22:07.47 | mheath | Penitum1 133mhz, ran windows 98. Said "It's running slow, can you make it run faster?" |
| 22:07.51 | levi | Has anyone seen "Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming"? |
| 22:10.38 | sjansen | mrpull: careful, or I'll lead a raiding party to your house next |
| 22:10.44 | mrpull | hahah... |
| 22:10.46 | levi | http://mitpress.mit.edu/0262220695 |
| 22:10.56 | mrpull | mike is a good kid |
| 22:11.14 | mrpull | but.... i'll stop there :) |
| 22:13.05 | mrpull | then again... start the raid now. I've got a bunch of crap to get rid of. |
| 22:13.22 | sjansen | What, in the rain? Are you crazy? |
| 22:13.24 | mrpull | when is the plug swap meet anyway? |
| 22:13.30 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 22:13.30 | *** join/#utah levi_ (~levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:14.18 | emcnabb | so, sjansen... you make pretty good money... is there any reason why you need to raid the house of a 14 year old to steal a PII? Where are you spending all your money? :-) |
| 22:14.34 | emcnabb | :-) |
| 22:14.40 | sjansen | You can never have enough free hardware. |
| 22:14.46 | emcnabb | yes, you can |
| 22:14.55 | emcnabb | I am a living witness of that :-) |
| 22:14.55 | mrpull | i've got too much crap |
| 22:14.59 | sjansen | I guess you're right. |
| 22:15.22 | emcnabb | I'll bring you a PII tomorrow |
| 22:15.29 | emcnabb | for lunch |
| 22:15.31 | emcnabb | deal? |
| 22:15.35 | mrpull | i've got a p3 or better policy right now |
| 22:15.59 | mrpull | if it is older than that straight to DI |
| 22:16.34 | emcnabb | my policy is about the same, but "classic" computers are an exception (like my NeXTStation, etc) |
| 22:16.35 | mrpull | tho I did pawn off some crap at the swapmeet last summer |
| 22:16.45 | levi | Ooh, a NeXTStation. |
| 22:16.56 | mrpull | that is what emulators are for :) |
| 22:17.10 | emcnabb | haha, it's not the same :-) |
| 22:17.34 | mrpull | i've seen the next station... i don't have enough desk space for nostalgia |
| 22:18.02 | emcnabb | you don't have to have all of them on your desk |
| 22:18.16 | mrpull | just wait till you are married :) |
| 22:18.18 | levi | If I had room, I would collect some classic computers. |
| 22:18.21 | emcnabb | haha |
| 22:18.26 | mrpull | it's coming |
| 22:18.28 | emcnabb | she knows what she's getting into |
| 22:18.29 | mrpull | you'll see |
| 22:18.34 | levi | Someday, when I have a house with several spare rooms and perhaps an unfinished basement. ;) |
| 22:18.38 | emcnabb | the deal is I have my office |
| 22:18.38 | mrpull | she knows what she is going to change :) |
| 22:18.46 | emcnabb | I get to do whatever I want with it |
| 22:18.53 | emcnabb | the rest of the house is hers |
| 22:19.00 | mrpull | riiiight :) |
| 22:19.15 | emcnabb | she knows I'm serious about that :-) |
| 22:19.42 | mrpull | i'm just giving you grief |
| 22:19.49 | emcnabb | I know |
| 22:19.52 | mrpull | i've got a mess of PC's downstairs out of site |
| 22:20.01 | mrpull | but the office upstairs is neat and tidy |
| 22:24.40 | emcnabb | Jayce^: which DEC is it? |
| 22:25.22 | levi | Heh, this is an interesting essay: http://plg.uwaterloo.ca/~holt/papers/fatal_disease.html |
| 22:27.14 | bucky | that's funny :D |
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| 22:34.35 | levi | Hrm, my Linux box rebooted. |
| 22:34.39 | levi | Must have been a brownout or something. |
| 22:34.47 | levi | Now drupal is dead. :/ |
| 22:39.00 | levi | Great, I have a corrupted mysql table. |
| 22:39.20 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 22:41.17 | levi | Okay, that was easy enough to fix. |
| 22:41.25 | sjansen | Let me say why PL/I Is "real". There are only three real programming languages: |
| 22:41.25 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.25 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.25 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.48 | levi | sjansen: Note that this was written a long time ago. :) |
| 22:41.55 | sjansen | of course |
| 22:42.19 | levi | Thankfully, Simula and Algol really did influence more later languages than FORTRAN, COBOL, and PL/I |
| 22:42.50 | levi | Which gives me hope that today's academic languages will actually rub off on the industry in the future. |
| 22:59.29 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 23:00.59 | Maquis | ~lart stupid multiple choice tests that were poorly written and have either multiple correct answers or no correct answers |
| 23:02.28 | sjansen | sounds like a well written test to me |
| 23:03.15 | dataw0lf|w | just go with C and you'll be fine. |
| 23:06.26 | *** join/#utah slag (~test2@67-41-183-61.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 23:06.39 | Maquis | ~lart sjansen |
| 23:06.40 | jsmith | Maquis: Any time I had a question like that, I"d write a paragraph explaining to the prof. why I thought it was a poor question. Nine times out of ten, they'd give me credit for it, even if I answered wrong. |
| 23:07.09 | Maquis | jsmith: that's great when it's not a multiple-choice bubble-test question when you're not allowed to write on the test or outside the bubble on the bubble-sheet |
| 23:07.18 | Maquis | i'm going to try to talk to the prof tomorrow |
| 23:07.38 | Maquis | anyway, off to the bus |
| 23:08.51 | jsmith | Maquis: In that case, I"d drop the prof. an email ASAP after taking the test. |
| 23:15.21 | *** join/#utah resplin (~richard@208.186.180.204) |
| 23:16.35 | resplin | ibot news |
| 23:18.39 | emcnabb | wow, resplin is on IRC |
| 23:21.59 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:26.36 | resplin | How are you doing emcnabb? |
| 23:26.51 | resplin | Sometimes I lurk, especially when I'm working on something I don't understand. |
| 23:27.40 | resplin | I'm installing Tomcat with Apache on ES 4 |
| 23:29.44 | mheath | ES? |
| 23:29.50 | emcnabb | I'm doing well |
| 23:30.12 | emcnabb | Tomcat is a beast (at least I've had problems with it in the past) |
| 23:30.30 | resplin | RHEL Enterprise Server 4 |
| 23:31.01 | emcnabb | what's the problem (not that I'll be much help) |
| 23:31.02 | emcnabb | ? |
| 23:33.02 | resplin | We've just been trying to find the documentation which versions of everything that we should use (I just figured out that jk2 is depricated). No real questions yet. |
| 23:33.08 | resplin | Oh, there is one: |
| 23:33.22 | resplin | Why aren't there rpms so that it will keep itself up2date? |
| 23:33.39 | resplin | They had rpms for tomcat 3 and 4, but I can't find any for 5. |
| 23:33.56 | sjansen | resplin: Have you looked at jpackage? |
| 23:33.59 | resplin | It's not in yum, apt, or up2date. Does everyone install from source now? |
| 23:34.17 | emcnabb | all the java stuff is done in jpackage now |
| 23:34.28 | emcnabb | there is info in the RHEL4 release notes |
| 23:34.40 | resplin | Oh, that's an important clue. |
| 23:34.42 | resplin | I'll check it out. |
| 23:34.44 | resplin | Thanks! |
| 23:35.10 | emcnabb | np |
| 23:38.34 | resplin | Does anyone have a URL to the RHEL4 release notes handy? |
| 23:39.00 | resplin | This is hosted in a datacenter, so I don't have any documentation. |
| 23:39.05 | resplin | Never mind, found it. |
| 23:40.44 | emcnabb | hum, maybe I read about it somewhere else |
| 23:41.08 | emcnabb | you can see in the release notes that jpackage was added |
| 23:41.31 | emcnabb | (and that the Tomcat RPM was removed) |
| 23:42.13 | resplin | I have been really impressed with RHEL 4. Way better than 3.x, and way newer than Debian stable (even than testing in a lot of ways) |
| 23:42.35 | emcnabb | yeah, it is nicer |
| 23:43.06 | jsmith | resplin: I've kind of liked it to... but I'm not 100% sold |
| 23:43.09 | usynic | resplin: can you upgrade to rhel 4 from 3.x easily? |
| 23:43.48 | Maquis | jsmith: i just emailed the prof (now that i'm home) |
| 23:43.57 | jsmith | Maquis: Cool... good luck |
| 23:44.05 | Maquis | when i complained i was in the cs labs --- i had tried his office, but he wasn't there |
| 23:44.59 | Maquis | it's just really frustrating when you know the concept behind the answer, but can't figure out what the question is looking for |
| 23:45.42 | Maquis | btw, there's one question i was completely uncertain on, and i'm not sure if it's an interpretation issue or a misunderstanding the concepts issue or what... |
| 23:45.59 | Maquis | (T/F) a process is a collection of one or more threads |
| 23:46.23 | Newsome | Tralse |
| 23:46.27 | levi | That's an odd way to define a process. |
| 23:46.34 | Maquis | Newsome: thanks |
| 23:46.47 | Maquis | levi: i agree, but is it correct? |
| 23:46.56 | levi | I would guess so. |
| 23:47.14 | Newsome | possibly |
| 23:47.18 | sjansen | I would say yes. |
| 23:47.34 | sjansen | Even on old Linux kernels. |
| 23:48.25 | Newsome | Linux implements threads as processes, so it's a bad definition |
| 23:48.31 | bucky | why is everyone working late tonight? |
| 23:49.06 | emcnabb | because I wasn't productive during the day |
| 23:49.20 | levi | Conceptually, a process defines a memory space and you can subdivide the execution within it via threads. |
| 23:49.24 | bucky | :( |
| 23:49.47 | sjansen | No, Linux implements threads as something similar to processes but able to share memory with other threads in the same process. |
| 23:50.18 | levi | The way Linux implements things isn't really relevant to the question, though. |
| 23:50.26 | sjansen | s/able/sharing by defaut/ |
| 23:50.28 | Maquis | question: what in the world does it mean for an xbox to dule-boot? |
| 23:50.36 | Maquis | (someone was talking about this on uug-list) |
| 23:50.37 | sjansen | levi: Just pointing out that Linux isn't a counter example. |
| 23:50.51 | bucky | dual ? |
| 23:50.59 | sjansen | duel ? |
| 23:51.06 | Maquis | :) |
| 23:51.36 | sjansen | On guard you knave! |
| 23:51.38 | bucky | choose your weapons |
| 23:51.39 | levi | A guy named John Dule developed a chip that lets you get around some hardware protection scheme. Booting via his chip is now called dule-booting. |
| 23:51.53 | levi | ^^^-- completely fabricated. |
| 23:51.58 | bucky | lol |
| 23:52.17 | Maquis | ok... here's the whole post from uug-list |
| 23:52.21 | Maquis | To make your xbox "dule" boot you need a game on a xbox memory modula or you |
| 23:52.21 | Maquis | need to make a usb to xbox adapter and use a usb drive... |
| 23:52.21 | Maquis | the firts is 'easyer', but only if you have tha game on the memory module... |
| 23:52.22 | Maquis | does any one have this / but linux on an xbox |
| 23:52.45 | bucky | trout slinger :P |
| 23:52.56 | resplin | usynic: there are upgrade notes in the RHEL manual and on the Centos web site for 3.x to 4.0, but it is not recommended for production systems. I have not tried it. |
| 23:53.00 | Maquis | can anybody translate that post to english for me? |
| 23:53.16 | levi | Maquis: It's your duty to ban this unfortunate individual from public communication until such time as there is evidence of ability to communicate. |
| 23:53.21 | Newsome | Maquis: It sounds like the guy was drunk |
| 23:53.30 | Maquis | Newsome: his posts are always like that |
| 23:53.39 | Maquis | levi: i've considered it... it's actually jake's job |
| 23:54.12 | bucky | maybe engrish is his second language |
| 23:54.41 | bucky | http://www.engrish.com/ |
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| 23:55.01 | levi | ESL people generally have a very different pattern of errors. |
| 23:55.14 | Maquis | bucky: i'm pretty sure that's not the problem |
| 23:55.18 | resplin | Can anyone point me to documentation for jpackage on RHEL 4. |
| 23:55.21 | levi | This person looks like a lazy bum who can't be bothered to communicate clearly. |
| 23:55.39 | resplin | No man page, no web page, I'm looking for "why use this" document. |
| 23:55.58 | Maquis | it's the same person that was trying to install susie on a petium a while ago |
| 23:56.00 | jakea | and AOL users |
| 23:56.26 | bucky | maybe he's dyslexic |
| 23:56.30 | shadoi | Susie is hot. |
| 23:56.30 | sjansen | resplin: jpackage.org |
| 23:56.41 | jakea | try running it backwards through an AOL user translater and see if it looks any better |
| 23:56.42 | bucky | or other learning disability |
| 23:57.39 | jakea | oh look, Jon D is back on UUG |
| 23:58.03 | resplin | sjansen: Thanks. You would expect that to appear from a google search. |
| 23:58.28 | resplin | sjansen: but I kept searching with other words in the string (silly me) |
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