| 00:09.40 | levi | Bah, where did sjansen go? |
| 00:09.52 | levi | Makes some ambiguous comment about Scheme and then leaves. |
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| 00:13.29 | Uncle_Jesse | Jayce^: you around? |
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| 00:46.42 | indessed | Hey, any mythtv gurus around? |
| 00:48.28 | scott | if anyone's interested, http://jaderholm.com/files/eon.jpg is a sketch I did during class today of a different interface for enlightenment (similiar to the window manager ion). eon-notes.txt has a few notes that aren't in the image. I'd be really interested to hear anyone's thoughts. |
| 00:54.04 | indessed | Despite the transparency, I think the widgets take up way more screen real estate than I'd want. But some people like pretty things on their screen :-) |
| 00:55.11 | indessed | The bottom bar looks similar to an idea I've had, however-- |
| 00:55.53 | indessed | rewrite gkrellm to look like XMMS, i.e. a small horizontal bar instead of a rather fat vertical bar, |
| 00:56.54 | indessed | with each section (CPU usage, for example) able to be double-clicked and, like XMMS, expand into a unwindowshaded version that looks more like a gkrellm square. |
| 00:58.05 | indessed | Still no MythTV users around? |
| 00:58.46 | indessed | Man. It must be the "night before the last day of classes" or something. Nobody's on IRC! |
| 01:00.01 | levi | I'm here! ;) |
| 01:00.21 | indessed | Heh. I should just make some random statement about Lisp, I suppose. ;-) |
| 01:00.43 | scott | indessed: there would actually be tons of screen real estate in eon--that's the whole point. the big sidebar and the iconbar along the bottom slide out only when you want |
| 01:01.21 | indessed | scott: I don't find much use in things like that that slide out only when I want them to. |
| 01:01.57 | indessed | I usually either want to just hit a keystroke and have something happen, or glance at something and see the status of something. |
| 01:02.00 | Maquis | ~lart civ |
| 01:02.11 | indessed | Hi Maquis |
| 01:02.13 | scott | indessed: yeah, they slide out with a keystroke |
| 01:02.22 | scott | either toggle or hold down |
| 01:02.25 | levi | I want something like Quicksilver. |
| 01:02.33 | indessed | scott: but then once you hit the keystroke and it slides out, what do you do with it then? |
| 01:02.33 | Maquis | hi indessed |
| 01:02.40 | indessed | (a) look at it, (b) interact with it in some way, |
| 01:02.42 | indessed | am I right? |
| 01:02.42 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:02.48 | scott | so you press capslock (or ctrl i fyou have it remapped) once and it comes out, press again and it slides back. or hold down capslock and it comes out and stays there until you release |
| 01:03.04 | indessed | maquis: You're a mythtv expert, right?? |
| 01:03.07 | scott | indessed: a or b or both |
| 01:03.19 | Maquis | indessed: ummm... nope |
| 01:03.29 | Maquis | you need to talk to amcnabb |
| 01:03.34 | Maquis | i've never used it |
| 01:04.18 | indessed | scott: so what i'm saying is that (the way I have my wm configured), I don't want to interact with anything, I just hit [say] ctrl-blah to perform whatever task I would have done with ctrl + click-on-widget in your wm. |
| 01:04.43 | indessed | scott: to me that's more useful than having to have something appear and /then/ interact with it. |
| 01:05.01 | Maquis | indessed: spr might be a mythtv guru too... |
| 01:05.05 | scott | indessed, if you want to see the time what do you do? |
| 01:05.13 | Maquis | he has more knowledge about it than i do, at least... |
| 01:05.30 | indessed | scott: stuff like that I want to have available all the time, not just when i hit a button, |
| 01:05.38 | indessed | so i can glance at it while i'm, say, typing this message to you. |
| 01:06.00 | scott | indessed, I find that I don't look at it often enough to spend screen space on it |
| 01:06.16 | scott | oh well, I'm not here to convince, but I appreciate your input |
| 01:06.23 | indessed | That's what I was trying to say earlier ... for me, everything falls into two categories: stuff I want permanently on my desktop so I can glance at it, and stuff I don't ever want to see, I just want it to [do something]. |
| 01:06.26 | scott | I realize most people won't think it's a very useful interface |
| 01:06.36 | indessed | But yeah, different strokes for different folks. |
| 01:06.43 | indessed | It just wouldn't be very useful for me :-) |
| 01:07.19 | scott | but I don't like having to load up evolution, keystroke or not, and some rss reader, and click on tasks, and look at the tiny clock, etc to see something. I'd love to just press one key |
| 01:08.45 | indessed | i'd like to have something like a window-shaded xmms/gkrellm that i was talking about earlier, |
| 01:09.14 | mheath | scott, you can do that with E. |
| 01:09.31 | indessed | basically a 10/15-pixel high strip along the top (or bottom) of my screen |
| 01:10.02 | indessed | with all the information i need to see, like the time, or RSS feeds, or cpu/network usage, etc. |
| 01:10.23 | indessed | (with more detailed information available with a double-click or a keystroke) |
| 01:10.25 | mheath | indessed, I don't know about anything that small, but I can tell you something very nice looking thats a bit larger that will do all that |
| 01:10.52 | indessed | hold on a second, brb, then you can tell me ... |
| 01:10.53 | mheath | Ever seen gdesklets? |
| 01:10.55 | *** part/#utah indessed (~ross@71-36-72-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 01:11.42 | scott | mheath, you mean the epplets on the wallpaper? |
| 01:12.38 | mheath | Ah, I don't know.. |
| 01:13.01 | mheath | Sorry, I was a little confused, I see, by what you said. Nevermind what I said. |
| 01:13.11 | *** join/#utah indessed (~ross@71-36-72-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 01:13.13 | *** part/#utah indessed (~ross@71-36-72-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
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| 01:13.28 | indessed | sorries, i'm baaaack! |
| 01:13.31 | mheath | However, in DR17, with the EFL, you should be able to do such a thing |
| 01:13.34 | indessed | now what was that? gdesklets? |
| 01:13.38 | mheath | indessed, ever seen gdesklets? |
| 01:13.43 | indessed | nope |
| 01:13.50 | mheath | Gnome-based app (thouhgh runs in any WM) |
| 01:14.11 | scott | I haven't seen any I especially like |
| 01:14.30 | mheath | Gah! Stupid comcast..... |
| 01:14.38 | mheath | My DNS randomly cuts out. |
| 01:14.42 | scott | indessed: re the bar along the bottom, ion has one (but you can't click for more info) |
| 01:14.58 | mheath | google.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again. |
| 01:15.47 | indessed | mheath: are you saying that i could use the gdesklets framework to implement what i'm talking about, or that such gdesklets already exist? |
| 01:16.10 | indessed | from the screenshots i'm looking at they seem a lot more bulky (in terms of screen real estate) than the gkrellm replacement I'm thinking of. |
| 01:16.35 | mheath | indessed, both. You could use it to make exactly what you want, or if you're willing to settle for bigger than your "10/15-pixel high strip" they already exist |
| 01:16.46 | mheath | They very in size. Several of them aren't that big |
| 01:17.14 | indessed | mheath: gkrellm isn't much larger than the alternatives i've seen |
| 01:17.32 | mheath | Question for you all |
| 01:17.45 | mheath | I'm working on a LInux software distrobution, and thinking about basing it on GoboLinux |
| 01:18.16 | mheath | Would a root directory structure of /Programs, /System, /Users, /Files, and /Depot drive you all insane? What do you all think of it? |
| 01:18.24 | mheath | (This is the directory structure that GoboLinux uses) |
| 01:18.41 | indessed | mheath: I personally like the Mac-ish directory structure |
| 01:18.56 | indessed | I think i'd like it more if they lower-cased everything, |
| 01:18.58 | levi | I wouldn't mind a directory structure like that. |
| 01:19.05 | indessed | but i don't mind the length. |
| 01:19.09 | levi | I don't mind uppercase, either. |
| 01:19.18 | indessed | (I end up tab-completing etc and usr half the time just out of habit :-P ) |
| 01:19.32 | scott | mheath: that would be fine w/ me also |
| 01:19.46 | mheath | indessed, this is kind of mac-ish |
| 01:19.50 | indessed | wow. i've never heard so many people who didn't care. |
| 01:20.16 | mheath | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:20.19 | indessed | i've heard a lot of people who were very very livid at the idea of anything longer than three or four characters, lower case, in / |
| 01:20.48 | indessed | Macs use: Applications, Library, Network, System, Users, Volumes. |
| 01:20.50 | levi | A lot of people are stuck on Unix and can't fathom moving on. |
| 01:21.03 | scott | mheath: I'm confused though, what would go in /Files? why wouldn't that stuff go in /Users? |
| 01:21.22 | indessed | levi: well, unix is still around after decades for good reasons :-) i can understand why people are hesitant to change. |
| 01:21.46 | mheath | scott, I'm not really clear on what GoboLinux uses for /Files. It's system-wide, important, static stuff, apparently. |
| 01:22.02 | levi | Probably like /usr/share |
| 01:22.06 | mheath | I *think* a usage of /Files would be like...... /Files/Apache/htdocs/ |
| 01:22.11 | indessed | mheath: kind of a crappy name then, in my opinion |
| 01:22.17 | mheath | Or like /usr/share |
| 01:22.24 | mheath | *and like |
| 01:22.34 | mheath | indessed, Eh, i don't really think so, but OK :) |
| 01:22.37 | indessed | mheath: as a desktop user I'd expect /Files to be like "My Documents", except stuff that's shared among users. |
| 01:22.51 | indessed | That's my initial feeling anyway :-) |
| 01:22.53 | mheath | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:23.10 | indessed | mheath: i think that's a lousy name too :-) but oh well. i'm not making the distro :-) |
| 01:23.30 | mheath | I'm not either :D I'm merely extending it to make my own distro. |
| 01:23.41 | levi | scott: Although I've heard Lisp Machines are nice to use, they'd need to be significantly updated as well, I'm sure. |
| 01:23.48 | indessed | mheath: right :-) Same diff. |
| 01:23.51 | mheath | Heh, I'm going to be politically correct and refer to my creation as "Add-On Software Package" |
| 01:24.09 | scott | levi, I know, I was just joking because I knew you'd be the only one to get that :) |
| 01:24.22 | indessed | mheath: i don't think there's anyone who's just magically "created" their own distro without adding on to an existing one in the last so many years. |
| 01:24.51 | levi | scott: I'd love to have Genera dev stuff available in a virtual machine, though. |
| 01:24.54 | mheath | indessed, yeah, agreed. Although this is going to be a big change for GoboLinux |
| 01:25.05 | scott | levi, ever hear of Vapour? |
| 01:25.11 | levi | scott: Nope. |
| 01:25.22 | mheath | I've got a lot of neat features plan that I believe will make it the best Desktop distro around, especially for beginning users :) |
| 01:25.22 | Maquis | i think that the majority of desktop users don't understand the point of multiple users... |
| 01:25.30 | mheath | *planned |
| 01:25.36 | mheath | planned and in progress |
| 01:25.37 | Maquis | honestly, i've never seen people actually use the various users separately |
| 01:26.18 | levi | I have. |
| 01:26.28 | Maquis | for example, my parents have OSX... and instead of logging as each of them separately, they have it set to automatically boot to my dad's account, and on his desktop, they each have their own separate folders |
| 01:26.35 | Maquis | but they don't log in as themselves at all... |
| 01:27.24 | scott | levi: http://web.archive.org/web/20021120164126/http://vapour.sourceforge.net/ |
| 01:27.44 | levi | Hmm. The fact that you have to pull it out of archive.org isn't promising. ;) |
| 01:28.03 | indessed | is it vapour-ware? |
| 01:28.04 | indessed | ha ha. |
| 01:28.38 | indessed | Maquis: I think in a lot of home environments, separate pc users for separate people in the household aren't necessary. |
| 01:28.58 | levi | scott: I think there are some currently-active OS projects along the same lines. |
| 01:28.59 | indessed | Maquis: I think the important part is having the distinction between unprivileged user and root |
| 01:29.41 | Maquis | indessed: unfortunately, my dad's account is rather privileged |
| 01:31.41 | levi | scott: Here's an OS written entirely in Common Lisp: http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ |
| 01:32.10 | indessed | levi: Just because you can doesn't mean you should ;-) |
| 01:34.17 | levi | indessed: Well, it does make sense in some cases. A Lisp system built upon Lisp foundations is more powerful than one built upon C foundations, since you can dig deeper with your introspection. |
| 01:34.19 | findlay | anybody want a cookie? |
| 01:34.27 | levi | I like cookies. |
| 01:34.28 | indessed | mmmmm.... coookies |
| 01:34.51 | findlay | no, no, sorry, they're the cheap walmart $0.88 kind |
| 01:34.53 | levi | indessed: It made sense for Symbolics, anyway. |
| 01:35.24 | findlay | ibot: give levi and indessed the last two cookies |
| 01:35.31 | indessed | w00tage! |
| 01:35.42 | findlay | ibot: yo |
| 01:35.43 | ibot | Yo wazzaaaap my brotha?! |
| 01:35.51 | findlay | ibot: nevermind |
| 01:41.32 | scott | levi, do you know zhivago from #lisp? |
| 01:41.50 | levi | Nope. |
| 01:43.11 | levi | findlay: Read http://gigamonkeys.com/book |
| 01:43.40 | scott | findlay: listen to ilovebees if you've never heard it |
| 01:45.02 | scott | findlay: listen to these files in order http://ilovebees.com/humptydumpty.html |
| 01:45.14 | scott | it's like a novel, but with cool voice actors |
| 01:46.07 | levi | findlay: Common Lisp is the result of gathering a bunch of features from a bunch of divergent Lisps and ANSI standardizing them into one language. |
| 01:48.51 | findlay | and all the heterogeny from the heyday sort of became legacy, or branched into different languages? |
| 01:50.34 | levi | Not necessarily. |
| 01:50.49 | levi | There are still widely-used lisps that are not Common Lisp. |
| 01:51.16 | levi | Scheme, Emacs Lisp, and some embedded lisps like AutoCAD's scripting language, for example. |
| 01:52.34 | findlay | really? I didn't know AutoCAD used lisp, much less had a scipting interface |
| 01:53.00 | indessed | findlay: yeah, lots of apps like autocad have embedded lisps |
| 01:53.27 | indessed | lisp is hidden in all sorts of dark recesses you'd never suspect ... |
| 01:54.08 | levi | Which is really nice for the implementor, since lisp is incredibly easy to parse. |
| 01:54.34 | indessed | levi: parsing is only one part of implementation :-) |
| 01:54.47 | indessed | (In lisp's case, probably the easiest part by far) |
| 01:55.01 | levi | It is often pretty hairy, though, for languages with complex grammars. |
| 01:55.54 | indessed | levi: most computer languages are written specifically to have grammars that are easy to parse, and in any case there are many tools that will generate the parser for you. |
| 01:56.35 | indessed | there are many good reasons to use Lisp, but I can't see the relative ease of parsing being a significant one :-) |
| 01:57.11 | levi | indessed: No, most computer languages are written specifically to have grammars that have some more human-oriented features. And I'm aware of compiler generators, of course. |
| 01:57.30 | levi | indessed: Anyway, I never said that's WHY you'd use a lisp. Just that it's a benefit. |
| 01:57.41 | findlay | is ease of parsing dependent only on the number of complex language features? |
| 01:58.11 | indessed | findlay: ease of parsing is dependent on the complexity of the grammar, and that's about it. |
| 01:58.14 | levi | findlay: Ease of parsing depends entirely on what class of grammar accepts the language. |
| 01:58.42 | indessed | levi: I wouldn't say that. While technically true, I believe all programming languages fall into the same class. |
| 01:58.47 | findlay | what's a complex language, aside from C++? |
| 01:59.28 | levi | indessed: I would say that, but I mean by 'class of the grammar' the simplest type of parser that accepts it. |
| 01:59.38 | levi | findlay: What do you mean by complex? |
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| 01:59.54 | indessed | levi: My mistake, I thought you were talking about Chomsky's hierarchy. |
| 02:00.00 | findlay | grammar, I guess |
| 02:00.17 | mheath | Comcast's DNS is cutting in and out.... |
| 02:00.25 | mheath | Seems to be a bit better now. Maybe it's fixed. |
| 02:00.27 | indessed | levi: I believe he's asking, "What programming languages are difficult to parse?" |
| 02:00.44 | indessed | findlay: does that sound accurate? |
| 02:01.28 | mheath | If that is the question, BASIC is the answer :) |
| 02:02.08 | levi | findlay: The grammar basically translates the text of the program into an abstract syntax tree, which contains all the semantic information without the syntactic context. |
| 02:02.22 | findlay | it's nice that for computer language the complexity of the grammar thereof correlates directly to the overall complexity of the language, unlike human languages where semantics are constructed from indirect inflections of style, word choice, etc. (: |
| 02:02.50 | levi | findlay: It's not the case that syntactic complexity corresponds to semantic complexity at all. |
| 02:02.59 | findlay | levi: and that's the prevailing parsing paradigm? |
| 02:03.40 | levi | findaly: Lisp is indredibly simple syntactically, but is very rich semantically. |
| 02:04.18 | findlay | right, and a good language will have efficacy of syntax |
| 02:04.18 | mheath | levi, abstract syntax tree? Who said it has to be abstract? All the information on Compiler Design I've read says the best way is to break it down into a list of ID and Value pairs |
| 02:05.21 | levi | findlay: Yes: Lisp's simple syntax has a purpose, but complex syntaxes have purposes as well. |
| 02:05.47 | mheath | Like what? |
| 02:05.53 | mheath | Only to simplify programming. |
| 02:06.18 | indessed | I personally think it's all moot--the range between the most complex computer language grammars and the most simple is so small that to me it doesn't seem very significant. |
| 02:06.39 | mheath | indessed, oh, theres a big range :) |
| 02:06.46 | levi | findlay: The purpose of Lisp's simple syntax is to make metaprogramming easier. A complex syntax makes metaprogramming more difficult, but can give lots of 'syntactic sugar' to the programmers. |
| 02:06.57 | mheath | BASIC vs. Whitespace or BrainF*ck |
| 02:07.21 | findlay | but isn't efficacy of syntax a paramount directive of every language? |
| 02:07.57 | levi | findlay: The thing is: what is the goal of the efficacy? To be effective at /what/? |
| 02:08.06 | findlay | (: |
| 02:08.38 | mheath | Anyone know an open-access net-accessible DNS server I can use for a bit? |
| 02:08.40 | levi | findlay: Simplicity of syntax can be very powerful. So can complexity of syntax: witness perl, for example. |
| 02:09.20 | indessed | mheath: what i'm saying is that, for example, the difference in the amount of time it takes me to write a parser for Lisp vs. the time for BASIC or Perl is going to be in the range of programmer-days or less. |
| 02:09.30 | findlay | but you don't obfuscate things on purpose, you don't do things the hard way on purpose |
| 02:10.05 | mheath | indessed, a simple LISP parser can be written in less than an hour. |
| 02:10.25 | mheath | BASIC will take you days |
| 02:10.32 | levi | findlay: I'm not sure what you're getting at. |
| 02:10.48 | indessed | mheath: like i said, the range between the hardest and easiest is at most a couple of days |
| 02:10.52 | indessed | (exactly what you said) |
| 02:10.58 | findlay | I guess the idea for perl at least is to keep simple things simple, but still have complex things be possible in the same language |
| 02:11.27 | mheath | indessed, now compare LISP to java :) |
| 02:11.46 | findlay | but as you said, you can optimise a language for one specific complex task (: |
| 02:12.02 | levi | The idea for Lisp is that you can morph it into a language specific to your task. |
| 02:12.14 | indessed | mheath: I still say it's under two days. |
| 02:12.51 | indessed | mheath: esp. if you write the parser in lisp :-) |
| 02:13.54 | levi | mheath: BTW, the step in compiling where you have data,value pairs is lexing. Figuring out what those mean semantically is parsing, and the output of that is an abstract syntax tree. At least in the stuff I've read, which is admittedly not exhaustive. |
| 02:14.22 | findlay | I toyed with some lilypond a few months ago, which uses scheme |
| 02:14.37 | indessed | levi: i believe you're right |
| 02:15.21 | mheath | levi, most of the stuff I've read suggets that the code is kept flat and simple for the most part, and just progressively modified to make it more machine-code-like. |
| 02:16.03 | mheath | Granted, the stuff I've been reading heavily is somewhat dated...however, I did check it against some current publications by a professor at BYU when someone brough up it's age. |
| 02:16.05 | levi | mheath: You have not read very much compiler theory, apparently. |
| 02:16.33 | indessed | mheath: afaik, all compilers/interpreters parse the input as the very first thing they do |
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| 02:17.27 | mheath | indessed, no, they first run it through a cleaning/scrubbing process (whitespace, comments, etc). Then they parse. |
| 02:18.00 | indessed | mheath: sorry, that's basically what I meant :-) |
| 02:18.11 | indessed | apologies for conflating the two. |
| 02:18.32 | levi | The first step of compiling is called lexing, which takes text as input and outputs lexemes, or tokens. The parser operates on two things, the stream of tokens and a grammar. The output of a parser is an abstract syntax tree. The implementation details are left as an exercise to the reader. |
| 02:19.28 | indessed | levi: good point. i was conflating tokenizing and parsing, too. bad indessed!! |
| 02:21.50 | levi | There are more steps, of course, since you need to get to machine code eventually. |
| 02:22.01 | levi | And, in some cases, you can probably skip a step or two. |
| 02:22.11 | levi | But that's the general theory of it. |
| 02:25.58 | indessed | Most of my ideas about grammars and parsing come from natural language theory, which doesn't worry as much about lexing and doesn't have as its object machine code at the end. |
| 02:26.20 | indessed | Also probably why I see the differences between grammars describing programming languages as quite minimal :-) |
| 02:29.51 | levi | mheath: Anyway, the abstract syntax tree represents the hierarchical structure of the program syntax. After that, you progress to semantic analysis, like type checking and such. Then the compiler can analyze further to get information it needs to do optimizations. Then it can perform the optimizations. Finally, you get a translation of whatever data structure it's stored in to machine code, or whatever other output language you're targeting. |
| 02:30.35 | levi | I need to get going. |
| 02:43.50 | *** join/#utah findlay (~justin@65.203.174.134) |
| 02:44.40 | findlay | argh! why did google scrap the old google groups interface with the channels properly organized into the catergories? |
| 02:45.18 | findlay | now it looks like you can even start up `usenet' groups on google's server without being correctly named |
| 02:45.51 | findlay | just leave it to google to unilaterlly screw it up, like they are doing with the Reply-To: header in email |
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| 02:55.12 | findlay | |
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| 03:15.19 | *** join/#utah indessed (~ross@71-36-72-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 03:26.52 | *** join/#utah flyboy^ (~flyboy@69.20.57.22) |
| 03:36.10 | *** join/#utah levi-treo (~upirc@001-716-598.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 03:37.33 | levi-treo | What's NUPM? |
| 03:38.05 | flyboy^ | Northern Utah Perl Mongers? |
| 03:38.34 | flyboy^ | But I'm up north, and the only monger I knew went back south. |
| 03:38.43 | levi-treo | Mongers, eh? |
| 03:39.25 | flyboy^ | Well, a monger. |
| 03:39.26 | levi-treo | Hmm. |
| 03:39.32 | flyboy^ | We called him monger. |
| 03:40.04 | levi-treo | Did he sell anything? |
| 03:40.45 | flyboy^ | Code. |
| 03:40.50 | flyboy^ | Lots of code. |
| 03:43.39 | levi-treo | Sconecutters is interesting. |
| 03:44.34 | flyboy^ | I like that place for certain things. |
| 03:46.26 | levi-treo | I feel like I walked back into the 80's. |
| 03:47.24 | tensai | o/~ Who controls the British Crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do. We do |
| 03:47.43 | flyboy^ | The Illuminati? |
| 03:50.43 | tensai | the Stonecutters from The Simpsons. I can't help but think of that song whenever I hear or see Sconecutters. |
| 03:52.28 | flyboy^ | I'm reminded of this line from some mormon flick "Stonecutter sir!" (in an irish accent). When we drive by one we always say 'Sconecutter sir!' in our best fake irish accent. We are so lame. |
| 03:52.53 | hans | I'm not reminded of much of anything, except that I haven't been there. |
| 03:55.02 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-67-161-242-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:56.38 | levi-treo | Well, the pastrami sandwich wasn't bad. The hot scone w/ cinnamon honey butter was delicious, though! |
| 03:56.45 | tensai | I went there once but wasn't really that impressed |
| 03:57.23 | levi-treo | The Navajo Tacos might be good. |
| 03:58.01 | flyboy^ | I'd rather have a sandwich from a good deli. |
| 03:58.07 | levi-treo | Putting sandwich stuff inside a scone seemed kind of pointless. |
| 03:58.48 | levi-treo | But scones for dessert are great. |
| 03:59.33 | usynic | not from sconecutter they aren't. |
| 03:59.41 | usynic | I like the genuine homemade fried ones. |
| 04:00.29 | Bradipo | The only thing that is worth getting at Sconecutter is a scone with cinnamon honey butter. |
| 04:00.49 | flyboy^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:00.55 | flyboy^ | But it could have been just that one. |
| 04:03.46 | *** part/#utah levi-treo (~upirc@001-716-598.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 04:11.55 | LeviHome | usynic: Genuine homemade fried ones are better, but the cinnamon honey butter almost makes up for it. :) |
| 04:12.24 | usynic | LeviHome, haven't had that specific one yet. |
| 04:12.27 | usynic | I'll have to try. |
| 04:12.51 | flyboy^ | I miss Astro Burger often. That's a good place to leave feeling really fat. |
| 04:20.25 | xbmodder | Hey, can someone explain how the proxy works for apache? I thought it was a webserver. |
| 04:21.05 | flyboy^ | You simply configure your bowser/etc to send all it's traffic to the given proxy/port on the web server. |
| 04:21.18 | flyboy^ | Is that what you were asking? |
| 04:21.19 | xbmodder | umm? that does not really help. |
| 04:21.32 | flyboy^ | It helps if you are trying to break out of filters. ;) |
| 04:21.35 | xbmodder | can i run it ontop of my currently running website |
| 04:21.42 | xbmodder | For me? Yes, I am behind a firewall. They block all ports but 80 and (sometimes) 443 (https). Can I run Mod_proxy on top of my current Apache server? |
| 04:22.01 | flyboy^ | You can, but I might give one bit of advice - make sure it's secure. You do NOT want to run an open proxy. |
| 04:22.40 | flyboy^ | You can run mod_proxy in lots of different configs. A popular usage of it is with the Zope engine/server. |
| 04:23.06 | flyboy^ | Proxy port 80 requests to the local Zope server. There are lots of other really great ideas with it too. |
| 04:23.37 | xbmodder | Can I use mod_proxy with SSH? |
| 04:23.45 | *** join/#utah fishyfire (~fishyfire@65.105.158.130.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 04:23.57 | Maquis | ~lart fishyfire |
| 04:23.59 | Maquis | :) |
| 04:25.00 | flyboy^ | xbmodder: For that you probably want to use a tunnel of some kind - or configure your SSH server on a box some place to listen on port 80. |
| 04:25.37 | fishyfire | ~lart Maquis |
| 04:25.45 | xbmodder | great |
| 04:26.05 | fishyfire | hey were you talking to Br. Roper today a little before noon by the vending machines in the tmcb? |
| 04:26.20 | Maquis | yeah |
| 04:26.27 | fishyfire | i thought it was you |
| 04:26.37 | Maquis | really? |
| 04:26.38 | Maquis | that's cool |
| 04:26.39 | fishyfire | yeah |
| 04:26.54 | Maquis | i still don't know who you are, but hey... we're a step closer :) |
| 04:27.04 | fishyfire | i heard something that sounded like a continuation of last night's conversation |
| 04:27.16 | fishyfire | i was the one getting the chocolate cookies out of the vending machine :) |
| 04:27.27 | Maquis | that doesn't help |
| 04:27.30 | fishyfire | lol |
| 04:27.31 | fishyfire | sorry |
| 04:27.37 | Maquis | yes, i was explaining to him about last night's conversation... |
| 04:27.48 | fishyfire | that's why i thought it was you |
| 04:27.57 | Maquis | i gave him a slightly watered-down version of what was said... |
| 04:28.01 | fishyfire | lol |
| 04:28.14 | fishyfire | probably a good choice |
| 04:28.23 | fishyfire | i wasn't following it all too closely |
| 04:28.30 | Maquis | :) |
| 04:28.35 | fishyfire | but close enough to guess that was a good choice |
| 04:28.48 | fishyfire | 12 hours of labs today |
| 04:29.02 | fishyfire | and 3 passed off with just lab reports to write still |
| 04:38.44 | fishyfire | so the voting's official now? |
| 04:48.45 | tensai | ~lart Maquis |
| 04:52.43 | xbmodder | Whats happening to the world? |
| 04:53.21 | *** join/#utah ECS (~ecs@ecs-dell.byu.edu) |
| 04:55.29 | *** part/#utah indessed (~ross@71-36-72-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 04:58.40 | fishyfire | ~lart tensai |
| 04:59.11 | tensai | http://www.winonadailynews.com/articles/2005/04/13/news/05cats.txt |
| 04:59.16 | tensai | this sounds like a great idea |
| 05:01.05 | tensai | Jayce^: I'm looking specifically at you |
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| 05:14.29 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@shylonhunter.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 05:15.44 | *** join/#utah levi-laptop (~levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 05:16.08 | levi-laptop | Maquis: So, what did your prof have to say when you told him about our discussion? |
| 05:23.09 | SpecialK | ~whois fishyfire |
| 05:23.10 | ibot | hmm... fishyfire is a sushi hater |
| 05:23.28 | SpecialK | ~whois Maquis |
| 05:23.29 | ibot | i don't give information like that to filthy cardassian spies |
| 05:23.44 | SpecialK | ~whois SpecialK |
| 05:23.45 | ibot | hmm... specialk is a slow typist, or good for you. Eat one bowl a day and you'll be healthier. Or its Scott K's nick. a puppy shaped balloon animal |
| 05:24.29 | Maquis | levi-laptop: he commented that he'd read through the references you guys recommended... |
| 05:25.09 | Maquis | he didn't seem to agree completely with some of the things about the code not being "elegant", and said that they really should have cases like that listed in the C standard... |
| 05:25.24 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 05:27.22 | Newsome | hmm, does Google look broken to everyone else, or is it just me? |
| 05:27.51 | levi-laptop | He thinks C should define a behavior for what he wanted to do? |
| 05:27.57 | Maquis | Newsome: looks fine to me, but on some days, i just get the japanese flag instead... |
| 05:28.02 | Maquis | levi-laptop: yup |
| 05:28.29 | Newsome | for some reason, it's redirecting me to http://www.google.com/xhtml |
| 05:28.29 | levi-laptop | Well, it's not clear just what it should do, really. |
| 05:29.05 | Maquis | Newsome: interesting |
| 05:29.23 | Maquis | levi-laptop: yeah... that's kind of what i said... |
| 05:30.10 | Maquis | he and i have some slight ideological differences on some things, i think... the other day, he made some sort of comment about how gcc isn't as good of a compiler as LCC or Borland, because it's OSS |
| 05:30.21 | Maquis | and he's made similar comments on occasion regarding various things that Linux does |
| 05:30.23 | levi-laptop | What is LCC? |
| 05:30.43 | Newsome | LCC is cool |
| 05:30.44 | Maquis | it's a "free" (as in beer, i'm assuming) C compiler for windows |
| 05:31.14 | levi-laptop | Well, in many cases, gcc sacrifices some things for portability and multi-language support. |
| 05:32.01 | levi-laptop | To compare compilers, you really need to be more specific about what your criteria for comparison are. |
| 05:32.03 | Newsome | the "real" LCC is a retargetable C compiler. |
| 05:32.37 | Maquis | levi-laptop: yeah... |
| 05:32.38 | levi-laptop | If you want to compile something on Linux, gcc is apparently far superior to lcc. |
| 05:33.05 | levi-laptop | Or Solaris, if you have some weird prejudice against Free Software. |
| 05:33.16 | Maquis | :) |
| 05:33.34 | levi-laptop | Intel seems to think gcc is worth supporting. As does Apple. |
| 05:33.44 | levi-laptop | And probably a lot of other companies. |
| 05:33.58 | levi-laptop | Intel even has its own compiler, and it still supports gcc. |
| 05:33.59 | Maquis | true... |
| 05:34.30 | Maquis | apparently, the upcoming release of OSX is going to have gcc 4 --- stuporglue pointed that out to me today |
| 05:35.03 | levi-laptop | OS X is currently built with gcc, too. |
| 05:38.22 | SpecialK | well, they wouldn't use intel's compiler ;) |
| 05:38.59 | Maquis | now, the big question is: does Intel use gcc or their own compiler |
| 05:42.55 | levi-laptop | I'm sure they use both. |
| 05:43.45 | levi-laptop | Intel's compiler does generate faster code, but sometimes it makes more sense for people to use gcc, so Intel makes sure gcc is reasonably fast on their chips. |
| 06:33.39 | spr | ~lart stupid algorithms |
| 06:34.03 | levi-laptop | What stupid algorithm? |
| 06:52.24 | Maquis | ok |
| 06:52.27 | Maquis | now this is bugging me |
| 06:52.37 | Maquis | i want to embed a code snippet in LaTeX |
| 06:52.45 | Maquis | so that it's indented, and such |
| 06:52.49 | Maquis | etc |
| 06:53.02 | Maquis | how in the world do i do that? |
| 06:53.35 | levi-laptop | Sorry, I don't know LaTeX. |
| 06:54.08 | levi-laptop | Come back when you have another C question. ;) |
| 06:54.17 | Maquis | :) |
| 06:57.18 | levi-laptop | I will probably learn LaTeX when I have need to write papers again. |
| 06:58.02 | Maquis | meh |
| 06:58.14 | Maquis | how bout this |
| 06:58.24 | Maquis | any good ideas for google search terms for this? |
| 06:58.38 | Maquis | i'm not having much luck, although i know that the answer does exist |
| 06:58.46 | Maquis | (and this time, i'm bookmarking where it exists) |
| 06:59.01 | Newsome | Maquis: maybe something like this - http://www.atscire.de/index.php?nav=products/listings |
| 06:59.33 | Maquis | Newsome: that might be it |
| 06:59.34 | Maquis | thanks |
| 07:00.03 | levi-laptop | http://www.seanet.com/~bradbell/omhelp/codep.htm |
| 07:00.25 | levi-laptop | Is that perhaps what you're looking for? |
| 07:01.27 | levi-laptop | Actually, probably not. |
| 07:01.40 | Maquis | levi-laptop: not sure if this is latex or not... |
| 07:01.50 | Maquis | doesn't quite look like it (but i could be wrong) |
| 07:02.52 | levi-laptop | https://engineering.purdue.edu/ECN/Resources/KnowledgeBase/Docs/20020202110438 |
| 07:03.02 | levi-laptop | That looks more like what you want... |
| 07:04.02 | Maquis | stupid byu network |
| 07:04.57 | levi-laptop | There is apparently also a 'listings' package. |
| 07:06.51 | Maquis | levi-laptop: yeah.. this looks like what i'm looking for... thanks :) |
| 07:06.59 | Maquis | how did you find it? |
| 07:07.12 | levi-laptop | http://www.atscire.de/index.php?nav=products/listings |
| 07:07.16 | Maquis | (ie, what were your search terms in google? i was searching, but didn't find anything helpful) |
| 07:07.41 | levi-laptop | "including code in LaTeX" |
| 07:07.44 | Maquis | levi-laptop: that's the one that Newsome posted earlier :) |
| 07:07.46 | levi-laptop | Without the quotes. |
| 07:07.56 | levi-laptop | Oh, so it is. |
| 07:08.08 | Newsome | Maquis: can you do an "slocate listings" ? |
| 07:08.25 | Newsome | see if it's already installed |
| 07:08.34 | Maquis | Newsome: appears to be... |
| 07:08.49 | Newsome | it's in /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/listings on my system |
| 07:09.06 | Maquis | so, is it \begin{listings}? |
| 07:09.16 | Maquis | i know i'd have to stick a \usepackage{listings} at the top |
| 07:09.23 | Maquis | i guess i could just google and figure that part out |
| 07:09.25 | Newsome | \usepackage{listings} |
| 07:10.06 | Maquis | oh... |
| 07:10.08 | Maquis | i found it |
| 07:10.11 | Maquis | thanks a ton to both of you |
| 07:10.24 | Newsome | then \lstloadlanguages{C++} |
| 07:11.22 | Newsome | \begin{lstinputlisting}[breaklines=true,frame=tbrl,caption={Sample code from the Server Room monitoring system.},label=Code-Server_Room_Monitor_1]{Chapter-CS/Listing-CS2.cpp} |
| 07:11.22 | Newsome | \end{lstinputlisting} |
| 07:11.35 | Newsome | (example from my thesis) |
| 07:11.47 | Maquis | nice :) |
| 07:12.04 | levi-laptop | Time for me to sleep. |
| 07:12.12 | Maquis | gnight levi-laptop |
| 08:27.11 | Maquis | ~mock SpecialK |
| 08:27.13 | ibot | ACTION pulls SpecialK's pants down and shows the world SpecialK's pink spotted underwear |
| 09:17.16 | *** join/#utah rehatalpha (~al@c-24-10-202-248.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 12:36.09 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 12:59.41 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@207.108.169.214) |
| 13:06.40 | *** mode/#utah [-o hans] by hans |
| 13:48.59 | brailsmt | how do I get my ps/2 mouse device working under debian? i have a usb working, and the mousedev module is loaded, but i don't see a /dev/mouse or anyother /dev entry that would look like a ps2 mouse... I am running the 2.6.7 kernel... |
| 13:55.27 | hans | /dev/psaux |
| 13:55.37 | hans | /dev/mouse is just a link that some put there |
| 13:56.08 | hans | if you don't have /dev/psaux it's probably a kernel config problem. |
| 13:56.23 | hans | actually, looks like /dev/psaux is a link to /dev/misc/psaux on my udev system |
| 13:58.24 | hans | ~lart fedex tracking |
| 14:22.39 | Uncle_Jesse | Is Jayce^ around yet? |
| 14:22.52 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (~aint@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 14:23.49 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~JoshH@firebat.aros.net) |
| 14:26.50 | bonez39 | anyone else experience weird behavior with Firefox? I load up some sites and the browser just freezes..... |
| 14:32.25 | brailsmt | ahhh... I have my trackball back :)) |
| 14:32.37 | brailsmt | much nicer than a POM |
| 14:32.41 | brailsmt | plain old mouse |
| 14:46.14 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 14:46.45 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-213.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 14:49.55 | *** part/#utah SpecialK (~ecs@ecs-dell.byu.edu) |
| 15:03.51 | Uncle_Jesse | ~ping Jayce^ |
| 15:03.55 | ibot | pong Jayce^ |
| 15:03.55 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 15:04.31 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@jamestkirk.byu.edu) |
| 15:05.33 | Maquis | ~hail jakea |
| 15:05.36 | ibot | ACTION bows down to jakea and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" |
| 15:05.42 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:06.08 | Maquis | ~lart sjansen |
| 15:06.20 | sjansen | Maquis: get back to work! |
| 15:06.29 | Maquis | sjansen: i'm going... |
| 15:09.20 | vontrapp | bet that didn't take long |
| 15:12.28 | sjansen | vontrapp: I'm not listing reasons, that'd take too long. It's more of a form of meditation. |
| 15:13.04 | levi | Good morning. |
| 15:13.30 | levi | sjansen: You're a pretty smug weenie... you just need to learn Lisp now. ;) |
| 15:21.00 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: when did you become Bhuddist? |
| 15:21.05 | Uncle_Jesse | :-) |
| 15:21.23 | hans | the same day you became a hick witha beard |
| 15:21.36 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@207.108.169.214) |
| 15:21.44 | Uncle_Jesse | lol |
| 15:22.20 | hans | I just want to make sure everyone knows that today is the day of the iBook |
| 15:22.31 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: why is that? |
| 15:23.14 | hans | Apr 13, 2005 8:14 am |
| 15:23.14 | hans | |
| 15:23.16 | hans | On FedEx vehicle for delivery |
| 15:25.37 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:27.12 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@sorenson.dsl.csolutions.net) |
| 15:28.29 | levi | hans: Is it 12" or 15"? |
| 15:28.48 | hans | 12" |
| 15:29.02 | levi | That's the one I'd like to get. That or the 12" Powerbook. |
| 15:29.08 | sjansen | ~mock hans' puny laptop |
| 15:29.11 | ibot | ACTION pulls hans' puny laptop's pants down and shows the world hans' puny laptop's pink spotted underwear |
| 15:29.18 | Uncle_Jesse | that's what I have - it's very nice |
| 15:30.12 | Uncle_Jesse | Before you install anything be sure to reformat with a partition for Linux |
| 15:31.04 | Uncle_Jesse | Ubuntu is supposed to run very nicely on the ibook - I might try it sometime. I'm running Fedora at the moment. |
| 15:33.40 | Uncle_Jesse | However you can always run KDE on top of OSX |
| 15:34.26 | vontrapp | sjansen: i don't ;) |
| 15:38.29 | levi | hans: Which OS version are you getting with it? |
| 15:39.53 | vontrapp | hey, how would one setup the special "www" keys and such to launch things? |
| 15:40.15 | sjansen | vontrapp: do you use gnome? |
| 15:40.21 | vontrapp | no |
| 15:40.41 | sjansen | too bad, very easy with gnome |
| 15:40.58 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@sorenson.dsl.csolutions.net) |
| 15:43.15 | brailsmt | vontrapp: which windowmanager? |
| 15:43.22 | brailsmt | it will be a function of your window manager |
| 15:43.23 | vontrapp | icewm |
| 15:44.16 | brailsmt | with waimea, i loaded up the xevent watcher and watched for which event happened when i pressed the button, the configured an action for that event... |
| 15:44.29 | brailsmt | it was actually the keysym i was after |
| 15:44.38 | brailsmt | not the event, itself |
| 15:44.48 | vontrapp | how did you set up the action for the keysym? |
| 15:44.59 | brailsmt | in my action file :) |
| 15:46.39 | brailsmt | xev is the program that will display xevents and their structure |
| 15:46.52 | brailsmt | including things like keysym and keycode |
| 15:46.52 | vontrapp | yeah, i know that |
| 15:47.09 | vontrapp | perhaps there is some deamon i could run to launch things on events? |
| 15:47.49 | brailsmt | - 28 {/bin/sh /home/michael/bin/vup}: KeyPress = XF86AudioRaiseVolume, |
| 15:47.49 | brailsmt | - 29 {/bin/sh /home/michael/bin/vdown}: KeyPress = XF86AudioLowerVolume, |
| 15:47.49 | brailsmt | - 30 {/home/michael/bin/vmute_toggle}: KeyPress = XF86AudioMute, |
| 15:47.59 | brailsmt | that is how i did it in my waimea action file |
| 15:50.04 | xbmodder | I need speakeasy internet! |
| 15:51.46 | brailsmt | vontrapp: also checkout /usr/include/X11/XF86keysymdef.h |
| 15:51.46 | brailsmt | err |
| 15:51.49 | brailsmt | /usr/include/X11/XF86keysym.h |
| 15:59.20 | levi | Heh, Sam Ruby on Continuations: http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2005/04/13/Continuations-for-Curmudgeons |
| 15:59.54 | hans | levi: panther, I think. I'm a little miffed that tiger was announced the day after it was ordered. |
| 16:00.06 | levi | hans: Perhaps they'll give you a free upgrade. |
| 16:00.12 | levi | hans: Or at least a reduced price one. |
| 16:00.30 | hans | the website says you can get tiger for $10 if it was purchased on or after april 12. I bought mine april 11 |
| 16:00.38 | hans | I'm thinking I can talk them into it over the phone. |
| 16:00.48 | levi | Hopefully. |
| 16:01.02 | hans | certainly ain't gonna pay $130 for it. but dashboard looks cool |
| 16:01.15 | levi | I knew Tiger was coming soon, which is why I haven't really persued getting a new Mac. |
| 16:01.36 | levi | pursued? Yeah. |
| 16:02.18 | levi | sjansen: BTW, what did you mean when you linked to Phil Windley's article on converting RSS to email and wondered what it would be like to live in his reality? |
| 16:02.38 | hans | I've been holding off for a couple of weeks hoping for tiger, but was beginning to wonder if it was coming in the near future. That and I assumed it wouldn't ship with laptops right away, and I could upgrade for cheap |
| 16:03.11 | hans | frankly, I'm more excited for HHGG than upgrading to Tiger |
| 16:04.16 | hans | sigh. mbrowse needs a stop button |
| 16:05.14 | vontrapp | who's heard of the band wonderstuff? |
| 16:06.56 | sjansen | Oh, wait... no I don't. |
| 16:08.31 | sjansen | levi: It's odd world view that actually thinks the set of people willing to write the script for him and the set of people willing to do it in scheme to meet his asthetic demands actually intersects. |
| 16:09.31 | levi | sjansen: You misread him. |
| 16:09.50 | levi | sjansen: He made it work for him, and noted that it would require some Scheme knowledge to make it work on other systems. |
| 16:10.50 | levi | sjansen: In fact, he has a whole page describing how he wrote it in scheme and what all the different sections of the code are doing. |
| 16:12.19 | levi | sjansen: Besides, if he'd writted what you thought he did, it'd still make plenty of sense. The intersection of the two is called 'his Scheme students'. |
| 16:13.38 | sjansen | well I guess I'm proof that repeatedly bashing your head against your keyboard does not improve reading comprehension |
| 16:15.17 | Uncle_Jesse | it would be interesting to see how National Geographic is going to be tracing the human migration patterns |
| 16:15.41 | Uncle_Jesse | I would think the BYU study would have to be more accurate, considering the time spent with Genealogy in association with the DNA of individuals |
| 16:16.02 | Uncle_Jesse | (I'm referring to /. btw) |
| 16:16.21 | levi | sjansen: I wish I'd been able to take CS330 from him. Sounds like he's got a much better grasp of the real world and what would actually make Scheme useful in it. |
| 16:17.59 | brailsmt | how do I switch my keyboard model? can i do it without exiting X? |
| 16:18.33 | levi | Ugh. I'm at this point in my project where I need to take all the abstract design stuff I've been doing and start making something concrete out of it. This is the hardest part for me. |
| 16:18.52 | sjansen | brailsmt: do you use gnome ;-) |
| 16:21.06 | brailsmt | sjansen: i can temporarily... |
| 16:21.10 | brailsmt | and i can run gnome apps |
| 16:21.19 | Bradipo | brailsmt: xkbcomp maybe? |
| 16:21.27 | sjansen | gnome has a nice little keyboard switching applet |
| 16:21.49 | levi | I like gnome. |
| 16:21.58 | vontrapp | brailsmt: setxkbmap -layout us|dv|de|kh etc |
| 16:22.12 | Bradipo | Ahh, that's it. |
| 16:23.02 | brailsmt | sjansen: i am also running the gnome panel |
| 16:23.59 | brailsmt | got it |
| 16:24.00 | brailsmt | :) |
| 16:30.56 | *** part/#utah mrpull (~mrpull@205.158.184.116) |
| 16:56.32 | brailsmt | does debian not have xorg packaged? |
| 16:57.04 | bonez39 | if I am editing something with vim..and want to save it as something else, is it just :w newfilename |
| 16:57.47 | bonez39 | and then close and open under the old name, to continue editing the old file..and then later, the new file name? in :w newname that won't replace but just save as a new copy, right? |
| 16:58.27 | brailsmt | bonez39: you lost me |
| 16:58.54 | brailsmt | :w fname <-- will save the current buffer to the file 'fname' |
| 16:59.08 | brailsmt | no need to close vim to edit the new one, just type :e fname |
| 16:59.45 | hans | and then there's :file |
| 17:01.17 | brailsmt | which does? |
| 17:01.42 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~sjk36@128.187.175.51) |
| 17:05.06 | SpecialK | and keeps students from chatting, etc. in the JSB |
| 17:05.07 | bonez39 | oh, ok..... |
| 17:05.18 | SpecialK | stupid tabs |
| 17:05.50 | SpecialK | the lack of wireless anywhere near the testing center |
| 17:07.04 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:08.13 | bonez39 | no wireless in Grant Bldg? |
| 17:09.05 | hans | the tc doesn't use wireless anymore, or the lack of public wireless? |
| 17:09.26 | hans | they want to maintain reverence in the jsb, or what? |
| 17:09.39 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 17:09.44 | SpecialK | There is a network there, but I'd assume they log you on if you need it. |
| 17:09.59 | SpecialK | in the testing center that is. |
| 17:10.35 | SpecialK | I just wanted to use wireless while waiting for a recital in the Maeser building last night. |
| 17:11.04 | SpecialK | but Maquis always complains that there's no wireless in the JSB and I was citing a reason. |
| 17:12.08 | SpecialK | I suppose they could also have one that doesn't broadcast it's SSID. |
| 17:14.07 | hans | you don't want ethereal, you want something like kismet |
| 17:15.36 | hans | huh? |
| 17:15.52 | hans | do you mean the card activated? probably |
| 17:16.28 | hans | or do you mean work in linux? I don't know whether kismet has been ported to osx but I bet somebody has written a wardriving app for osx of some sort |
| 17:16.41 | SpecialK | I heard they couldn't get airport working in OS X linux because the hw is closed source, and suspect that kismet might want some of that |
| 17:17.15 | hans | yeah, if you want to use the airport extreme in linux you're basically SOL |
| 17:18.00 | Jayce^ | there is a kismac, works quite well |
| 17:18.24 | *** join/#utah mrpull (~mrpull@205.158.184.116) |
| 17:18.42 | SpecialK | and thinks pads are just too ugly |
| 17:20.41 | hans | I hear, and will try to verify soon, that aside from the airport extreme linux support on mac laptops is excellent. |
| 17:21.07 | hans | usb wireless dongle is one workaround for the wireless |
| 17:23.02 | SpecialK | who has good os usb dongles? |
| 17:23.30 | hans | that's a good question, deserving of some research |
| 17:35.38 | brailsmt | ~slashdot |
| 17:35.50 | brailsmt | fun first item there... |
| 17:36.14 | levi | brailsmt: No, there are no xorg packages for Debian proper. There are Ubuntu packages, though. |
| 17:36.33 | vontrapp | oh boy, /me feels himself being sucked into slashdot against all will |
| 17:36.40 | brailsmt | dangit, why is debian so ****** slow? |
| 17:36.50 | vontrapp | slow as in update? |
| 17:36.51 | brailsmt | *sigh* |
| 17:37.09 | brailsmt | slow as in getting decently up-to-date packages |
| 17:38.07 | levi | So, run Ubuntu. |
| 17:38.27 | vontrapp | hans, what version of xmms has the new api? |
| 17:38.58 | brailsmt | levi: do i have to reinstall? |
| 17:39.34 | vontrapp | it would be interesting to point your repositories to ubuntu and do a dist upgrade |
| 17:39.37 | levi | brailsmt: Reinstalling is the safest way, but I've transitioned before. |
| 17:39.42 | vontrapp | i have no idea what that would do |
| 17:40.12 | levi | vontrapp: It mostly works, but is not guaranteed to. |
| 17:40.22 | levi | And apparently has broken for some people. |
| 17:40.45 | brailsmt | so is ubuntu just a "fork' of debian by ppl frustrated with debians slow adoption of everything? |
| 17:41.00 | vontrapp | you could add ubuntu repositories and pin them, and come the rare (or not so rare, ymmv) time you need a more recent package than available in debian, you can specifically install from ubuntu |
| 17:41.01 | levi | There's not necessarily any frustration involved. |
| 17:41.29 | levi | It's just one of the many distributions built atop the Debian framework. |
| 17:41.46 | levi | But they've committed to a 6 month release cycle and seem to be following it. |
| 17:41.53 | levi | And they integrate recent packages. |
| 17:42.42 | levi | The latest release has gnome 2.10.1 and the x.org X server. |
| 17:43.26 | synic | isn't it actually supposed to be following the gnome release cycle? |
| 17:43.45 | levi | Possibly. Does gnome release every 6 months? |
| 17:44.03 | synic | yeah. |
| 17:44.07 | levi | If so, they're pretty well synchronized. |
| 17:46.10 | brailsmt | not worht it here to reinstall, I am going to be bringing in a machine from home so I actually ge a work machine with > 350MHz... |
| 17:46.28 | brailsmt | and that machine has gentoo :) |
| 17:47.05 | levi | Ew, gentoo. |
| 17:47.30 | brailsmt | don't worry, i think the same thing about debian... |
| 17:47.32 | brailsmt | :) |
| 17:50.07 | *** join/#utah joshc (~joshc@65.37.125.194) |
| 17:50.22 | JoshH | as soon as sarge is out (whenever that may be...) debian unstable will start getting up to date packages a lot quicker, and there will be much less of a gap between it and ubuntu. |
| 17:53.13 | hans | JoshH: you mean between sarge and ubuntu? |
| 17:53.26 | hans | or unstable and ubuntu? |
| 17:54.23 | hans | vontrapp: only CVS afaik |
| 17:54.43 | vontrapp | hans: xmms -v |
| 17:54.56 | hans | $ xmms -v |
| 17:54.56 | hans | xmms 1.2.10 |
| 17:55.51 | vontrapp | that's the version in testing now |
| 17:56.40 | dataw0lf|w | levi: the sychronization of Ubuntu and Gnome isn't accidental. |
| 17:57.21 | levi | dataw0lf|w: That doesn't surprise me. I didn't mean to imply that it was. |
| 17:58.39 | hans | vontrapp: it might be 1.2.10 from CVS, e.g. pre 1.2.11 |
| 17:59.02 | hans | which would be different from what's in testing |
| 18:00.48 | dataw0lf|w | levi: if someone happens to be a fan of Debian + Gnome, they can't do much better than Ubuntu, imho. |
| 18:01.44 | vontrapp | yeah, it's still screwy |
| 18:01.56 | hans | I have .debs for them |
| 18:02.07 | hans | imms and xmms I mean |
| 18:10.27 | JoshH | hans: unstable and ubuntu. basically the main reason unstable doesnt have gnome 2.10, xorg, etc right now is because they dont want those things to interfere with the sarge release when its time for them to trickle from unstable to testing. |
| 18:11.02 | JoshH | honestly though i wouldnt be surprised if duke nukem forever is released before sarge. |
| 18:12.36 | levi | There aren't even gnome 2.10 packages in experimental. |
| 18:12.44 | hans | JoshH: unstable may come closer where ubuntu is ahead, but something else would have to happen to affect the reverse |
| 18:12.50 | hans | most of universe is behind unstable |
| 18:13.31 | JoshH | jeez, i didnt even know that. |
| 18:13.35 | JoshH | i havent actually used ubuntu. |
| 18:13.51 | hans | ask sjansen about trying to play scorched3d |
| 18:13.58 | JoshH | heh |
| 18:14.24 | JoshH | honestly though, i doubt the differences between gnomoe 2.8 and 2.10 are huge. |
| 18:14.29 | sjansen | basically, universe is snapshotted unstable |
| 18:14.41 | sjansen | Huge? No. Nice? Very much so. |
| 18:14.41 | hans | universe is actually a snapshot of unstable. but unstable keeps marching on and leaves ubuntu universe behind |
| 18:15.01 | hans | sjansen: do tell us |
| 18:15.07 | JoshH | yes, do |
| 18:15.27 | sjansen | the cpu speed applet is better behaved |
| 18:15.38 | JoshH | meh, i use gkrellm |
| 18:15.51 | sjansen | evolution 2.2 has better support for multiple calendars, other stuff |
| 18:16.01 | JoshH | meh, thunderbird owns it. |
| 18:16.05 | sjansen | the new theme is nice on the eyes |
| 18:16.12 | JoshH | industrial > * |
| 18:16.50 | sjansen | I've actually been running it for a couple of months so I don't remember everything |
| 18:17.30 | sjansen | file selector improvement (no longer something to be ashamed of, typeahead works well) |
| 18:17.45 | hans | ah, now there's something worth shouting about |
| 18:17.51 | sjansen | theme: clearlook |
| 18:18.13 | JoshH | i thought clearlook was going to the default in gnome 2.12 |
| 18:18.30 | JoshH | maybe ubuntu adds it or something |
| 18:19.13 | dataw0lf|w | Gnome 2.10 _is_ much nicer than 2.8. |
| 18:20.59 | dataw0lf|w | I'm using xfce4 now, though. |
| 18:21.01 | sjansen | "Because we like pretending to be trendy, we're saying that Sproutliner is in Beta. This really just means that we think we can still make it a lot better, while at the same time taking no responsibility whatsoever if things go wrong. It also means that we're still actively working on it, rather than taking a break in the Carribean, so if you have any suggestions or feedback, we'd love to hear it!" |
| 18:21.29 | JoshH | i use xfce4 at work, i use gnome at home though just because i like having an icon when i plug in my camera, heh. |
| 18:22.08 | vontrapp | i had no difficulty getting scorched3d once i upgraded to universe |
| 18:22.10 | sjansen | hotplug is one thing I miss from fedora, ubuntu doesn't do it as well |
| 18:22.21 | sjansen | vontrapp: different versions |
| 18:22.25 | hans | vontrapp: getting is one thing. |
| 18:22.29 | hans | yeah, the version |
| 18:22.43 | vontrapp | oh, right |
| 18:23.16 | sjansen | although, arguably, hans should be using ubuntu now because debian is doomed to be crushed by incompatible packages |
| 18:23.27 | vontrapp | but debian doesn't have that version either, does it? you got debs from somewhere didn't you hans? |
| 18:23.43 | hans | sure it does. in unstable |
| 18:23.46 | hans | may even be in testing by now |
| 18:24.37 | dataw0lf|w | I believe it is. |
| 18:24.52 | hans | debian won't be crushed by incompatible packages. it may keep it and ubuntu unfortunately separate, and people may migrate to ubuntu over debian, but debian will continue happily without corruption |
| 18:25.14 | sjansen | Debian is DOOMED I say! |
| 18:25.20 | dataw0lf|w | I've certainly switched to Ubuntu from Debian for desktop use. |
| 18:25.25 | hans | and if more people do go to ubuntu, may they find the resources to manage the equivalent number of packages their way. |
| 18:25.42 | hans | may the best distro(s) win |
| 18:26.10 | dataw0lf|w | I really don't think Ubuntu is hurting Debian that much. |
| 18:26.22 | tensai | debian's biggest stumbling block is sjansen. without his support, how can debian survive? |
| 18:26.30 | hans | dataw0lf|w: but that spoils sjansen's sensationalism |
| 18:26.33 | sjansen | DOOMED! |
| 18:26.49 | dataw0lf|w | rol |
| 18:27.07 | sjansen | DOOMED! DOOMED! DOOMED! |
| 18:27.56 | dataw0lf|w | reminds me of the monkeys at the zoo. |
| 18:28.03 | dataw0lf|w | any second now he'll start throwing feces at everyone. |
| 18:30.10 | JoshH | if unstable doesnt pick up the pace after sarge is stable, then i may switch to ubuntu, but for now im sticking with debian. /me is hesitant about change. |
| 18:30.50 | dataw0lf|w | So was I. But I'm sure happy I did. |
| 18:31.59 | sjansen | Ubuntu is very nice. It has a couple rough spots, but I think it's the best Gnome desktop available right now. |
| 18:32.02 | JoshH | ill probably try it next time i end up formatting one of my boxes, whenever that may be. |
| 18:32.31 | sjansen | Realize: I'm a Gnome bigot, so I'm picky about how well it's packages. I also have a long history of anti-Debian bias. |
| 18:32.32 | mrpull | http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2005/04/11/ubuntu |
| 18:32.37 | JoshH | my debian desktop is basically setup just perfect for me already, so the only difference would just be the gnome version and xorg. |
| 18:32.57 | sjansen | Although, as I've stated many times, that's because Debian hates me. Not because I'm biased. |
| 18:32.57 | mrpull | you think this guy has a problem with hoary? (or maybe more accurately Gnome?) |
| 18:33.12 | JoshH | mrpull: he seems to have a problem with anything that isnt osx. |
| 18:33.12 | dataw0lf|w | mrpull: it's all extreme noob complaints. |
| 18:33.23 | dataw0lf|w | he does work for Canonical though. |
| 18:33.38 | JoshH | its one thing to criticize an interface, but to complain because it uses the word "reboot" is just beyond absurd. |
| 18:33.52 | mrpull | really? i think a lot of it is valid... and certainly not noob complaints |
| 18:33.59 | JoshH | some of it is valid |
| 18:34.03 | mrpull | do noobs know about fitts laws? |
| 18:34.10 | JoshH | i dont know about fitts law. |
| 18:34.12 | dataw0lf|w | 'A lot of technical gibberish is displayed when the computer starts up, and when it shuts down.' |
| 18:34.16 | dataw0lf|w | wow, yeah, that's deep. |
| 18:34.31 | sjansen | Mac OS users now about Fitts law. It's part of the standard indoctrination. |
| 18:34.53 | dataw0lf|w | The login screen uses the term “username”. |
| 18:34.58 | JoshH | ya |
| 18:34.59 | mrpull | i'd like to see gnome use the Mac OS menu bar |
| 18:35.00 | dataw0lf|w | you're right, mrpull, these are really valid. |
| 18:35.00 | sjansen | I will free admit to being a total n00b during my Mac OS days, and yes I did know about Fitt's law. |
| 18:35.06 | JoshH | i stopped reading right about there |
| 18:35.49 | JoshH | he blew an opportunity to suggest real improvements that could be made to noob by saying stupid crap like that. |
| 18:35.54 | JoshH | err made to gnome |
| 18:35.55 | JoshH | gah |
| 18:36.03 | dataw0lf|w | It isn't a review. |
| 18:36.07 | dataw0lf|w | It's just complaints. |
| 18:36.14 | dataw0lf|w | And, while some may be valid, it shouldn' |
| 18:36.21 | dataw0lf|w | t be labeled as a review by any means. |
| 18:36.44 | dataw0lf|w | which is what every site and their mom is doing ' BAD REVIEW OF HOARY UBUNTU CLIX HERE!1!' |
| 18:36.55 | sjansen | I do agree with #69. |
| 18:37.11 | dataw0lf|w | So do I. |
| 18:37.34 | hans | Let us not forget that he uses spaces between the text and his em dashes!!!! |
| 18:38.02 | sjansen | heh, I'll turn to into a typography bigot yet, hans |
| 18:38.17 | hans | hey, brown is the best part of ubuntu |
| 18:38.24 | hans | I think it's beautiful and elegant |
| 18:38.50 | sjansen | Now that you have reached the first level, go my son and discover what means the different versions of courier better or worse. |
| 18:38.53 | dataw0lf|w | That's one of my few complaints about Ubuntu. The default theme looks like vomit. |
| 18:39.11 | hans | de gustibus non disputatum est |
| 18:39.15 | JoshH | but honestly, when has anyone ever used a default when it comes to linux? |
| 18:39.17 | sjansen | More like the contents a baby's diaper. |
| 18:39.39 | hans | you guys are obviously the type that water their lawns and grow their trees here in the desert and pretend you aren't in the desert. |
| 18:39.46 | JoshH | even on windows most people change the theme. |
| 18:39.46 | hans | utahns are notorious for that |
| 18:40.40 | dataw0lf|w | Utah wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for.. oh, nevermind. |
| 18:41.22 | hans | the desert has its own beauty. that beauty is what ubuntu reflects. You don't have to like it, but it's just another invalid complaint in that paper. |
| 18:41.46 | sjansen | Your mind has been twisted by living too long in deserts. |
| 18:42.41 | dataw0lf|w | I mean, it does look better than Windows. |
| 18:42.55 | hans | and yours by living in humid mold growboxes |
| 18:43.19 | sjansen | You obviously haven't been to ND, hans. |
| 18:43.24 | JoshH | lately ive kinda been wanting to live in the pacific northwest. |
| 18:43.39 | JoshH | anyone here from portland/seattle/vancouver/etc? |
| 18:44.03 | sjansen | There, that should settle things. |
| 18:44.33 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: you can come mow my lawn |
| 18:44.37 | hans | actually I have once. That was just to get back at you for thinking I'd use esd. ;-) |
| 18:44.51 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: has your ibook come yet? |
| 18:44.53 | sjansen | Uncle_Jesse: You paying for the ticket and hotel? |
| 18:44.58 | hans | on the truck |
| 18:45.14 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: nah, but when you're in the area you're welcome any time |
| 18:45.40 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: why aren't you outside waiting for it then? |
| 18:45.58 | hans | I'm waiting for hylafax to get its act together |
| 18:46.36 | hans | it fails on a modem (only one will work) and then waits 5 minutes before retrying |
| 18:46.44 | hans | the next one should be the one that works |
| 18:47.21 | hans | then I'll go home and hope it arrives during lunch |
| 18:47.32 | hans | I think maybe I'll name it sjansen |
| 18:47.52 | hans | since it will be running two of his favorite OSes. Debian and OS X |
| 18:50.09 | Uncle_Jesse | I should name my laptop |
| 18:50.23 | Uncle_Jesse | any fedora fans out there? |
| 18:52.23 | JoshH | i prefer standard baseball caps personally |
| 18:52.31 | dataw0lf|w | JoshH: I was born in Oregon, worked a couple summers in eastern washington. |
| 18:52.54 | JoshH | dataw0lf|w: what are your thoughts on the region? |
| 18:53.00 | dataw0lf|w | I love it. |
| 18:53.16 | dataw0lf|w | I think the Pacific Northwest is probably the best region in the United States. |
| 18:54.59 | JoshH | i think im going to take a road trip up the coast next summer. |
| 18:55.43 | JoshH | utah has just been gradually losing its appeal to me for the last few years, for various reasons. |
| 18:55.46 | dataw0lf|w | I'm saving up moolah to buy a boat and live on it on the Oregon coast. |
| 18:56.22 | JoshH | that would be the life |
| 18:56.59 | dataw0lf|w | yeah. |
| 18:58.28 | sjansen | Uncle_Jesse: I like Fedora. |
| 18:58.50 | sjansen | (As long as I close my eyes and ignore the constant stream of updates.) |
| 19:14.11 | levi | My parents live in the PNW, right on the Puget Sound. |
| 19:14.44 | levi | I wouldn't mind living there at all. |
| 19:15.21 | Jayce^ | levi, what town? |
| 19:15.26 | levi | Steilacoom |
| 19:15.46 | Jayce^ | cool |
| 19:15.47 | sjansen | Anybody know if it's possible to set an environamental variable in a makefile? |
| 19:16.10 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: I thought you liked Debian |
| 19:16.17 | sjansen | heh |
| 19:16.35 | sjansen | Debian and I have a rocky history. |
| 19:16.46 | Uncle_Jesse | which one do you like more so hans and I can decide which of our laptops to name after you |
| 19:17.17 | sjansen | The choice is limited to Fedora and Debian? Fedora hands down. |
| 19:18.04 | Uncle_Jesse | looks like my laptop will be named sjansen then |
| 19:18.16 | Uncle_Jesse | ~lart hans's laptop |
| 19:18.41 | sjansen | Had a brief love affair with Gentoo. |
| 19:19.05 | sjansen | Ubuntu is teaching me the good points of dpkg. |
| 19:20.08 | Uncle_Jesse | I'm considering switching to Ubuntu sometime |
| 19:21.47 | levi | Yay, I finally got the elbow valve for my bike's rear shock ordered. |
| 19:27.43 | *** join/#utah findlay (~justin@65.203.174.134) |
| 19:27.52 | findlay | hi |
| 19:30.41 | sjansen | wow |
| 19:31.05 | findlay | sjansen: expound? |
| 19:31.07 | levi | Hi findlay. |
| 19:31.12 | sjansen | Apparently it's legal in SD and Minn. to shoot wild cats at any time. |
| 19:31.27 | sjansen | Wisc. is trying to legalize it too. |
| 19:31.47 | findlay | hi levi |
| 19:37.40 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: at least they have a chance at escaping now rather than being euthanized in the pound |
| 19:37.48 | Uncle_Jesse | :-) |
| 19:38.49 | Uncle_Jesse | Did I mention I served my mission in Thailand? |
| 19:39.01 | Uncle_Jesse | There aren't many cats in Thailand :-) |
| 19:39.44 | findlay | nor windows XP starter editons |
| 19:41.16 | Uncle_Jesse | lol |
| 19:41.26 | Uncle_Jesse | they eat those too |
| 19:53.40 | *** join/#utah ECS (~ecs@ecs-dell.byu.edu) |
| 20:04.17 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:05.22 | sjansen | rootless has not threads? |
| 20:05.41 | sjansen | what a lousy choice to have to make |
| 20:07.56 | mheath | Some of you might be interested in this. As part of a project for a Video Production class I'm in, I'm working on a technical news/review/editorial show (half an hour or so, released every couple of weeks) that will be downloadable via the net. |
| 20:08.33 | Uncle_Jesse | mheath: have you looked at ourmedia.org for storage? |
| 20:08.45 | mheath | I was wondering if any of you had suggestions for what I could cover (I already have many of my own, and the first segment is well underway, but I thought I'd get suggestions) |
| 20:09.07 | mheath | Uncle_Jesse, no, I haven't. Since it's a school project and I'm good friends with our school website's maintainer, I was thinking of primarily hosting it their. |
| 20:09.09 | mheath | *there |
| 20:09.32 | mheath | They're moving their server equipment to a *VERY* highspeed facility |
| 20:10.10 | ECS | sjansen: not sure, but it appears -base-threaded and -rootless-threaded are dist 0.6.3 and they only have dist 0.7.1 for OSX 10.3 . I think those options are defaults for the newest stable version. |
| 20:11.19 | mheath | The original idea for this was just to do a weekly review and demonstration of a particular free software program. |
| 20:11.22 | sjansen | depending on what you produce, might be nice to have it archived long term on ourmedia |
| 20:12.00 | mheath | I started thinking, though, and I'm going to include reviews of more than that, interesting news, editorals, showcase cool gadgets/equipment/computer artwork |
| 20:12.07 | sjansen | mheath: I assume you're already coving firefox and OOo |
| 20:12.36 | mheath | I actually hadn't started considering what I was going to cover yet, but those are obvious cantidates. |
| 20:13.13 | sjansen | you'd be doing the service if you covered netiquette and actually got people to watch |
| 20:13.46 | sjansen | many people are still woefully uninformed about the security implications of wifi |
| 20:14.16 | sjansen | those are pretty mainstream |
| 20:14.34 | mheath | It's still going to be a couple weeks |
| 20:14.38 | sjansen | going for geeks it'd be cool to cover xmission or the UofU supercomputing stuff |
| 20:14.59 | mheath | At least a week before I start filming, several weeks before you'll see much |
| 20:15.01 | findlay | chpc.utah.edu |
| 20:15.05 | sjansen | a tour of linux networx |
| 20:15.19 | mheath | I plan on doing some field work, but a lot of it is going to be filmed at my schools studio |
| 20:15.23 | findlay | where can I find teleprompter software? |
| 20:16.07 | findlay | something that will scroll slowly up the display, but be upside down and backwards, so when you reflect it on the screen it is righted |
| 20:16.11 | mheath | I don't know. We currently don't use any, though we're getting a program soon. |
| 20:16.30 | mheath | This program will just output to a TV or monitor |
| 20:17.02 | findlay | my brother wants an OSS solution which will be better than anything else you could find if there is one |
| 20:17.52 | mheath | Hmm..... |
| 20:17.56 | mheath | It would be really easy to code one, I think |
| 20:18.15 | findlay | yeah, that's the easy part |
| 20:18.28 | findlay | the hard part is getting it to work on windows |
| 20:18.44 | findlay | which I don't anybody possibly could enjoy doing |
| 20:18.52 | mheath | Ugh |
| 20:19.05 | findlay | of course I could just convince him to use a linux box... |
| 20:19.06 | mheath | I started looking into Windows coding lately, for a project I'm working on |
| 20:19.34 | mheath | I've only used VB and Java on Windows before, but I started looking at C# because I needed to work directly with some low-level Windows APIs |
| 20:19.52 | mheath | Messiest, most disorganized, ugliest, scarriest piece of crap programming experience I've ever had. |
| 20:21.19 | mheath | Anyway... |
| 20:21.21 | mheath | *cough* |
| 20:24.47 | Uncle_Jesse | darn - I was going to praise ourmedia a bit more |
| 20:24.58 | ECS | So getting OSX xfree86 over fink always errors out on this file with a bad check sum curl -f -L -O http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbkx412.zip |
| 20:25.42 | Uncle_Jesse | I installed it directly from apple.com |
| 20:26.18 | ECS | sounds like a plan |
| 20:26.29 | ECS | do they have an easily accessible way to get it? |
| 20:28.42 | dataw0lf|w | anyone know how to change the duplex mode of a NIC in a SRM console ? |
| 20:29.31 | dataw0lf|w | eh, nevermind, I got it. |
| 20:31.22 | findlay | looks like it's an itch I need to scratch |
| 20:31.44 | findlay | although I have no idea how to go about it |
| 20:32.54 | findlay | probably just perl or something that draws the scrolling text onto a display somehow with a GUI interface to control the speed, etc. |
| 20:33.08 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/X11/ |
| 20:33.13 | Uncle_Jesse | that should get you started |
| 20:33.24 | findlay | but how would you render the text backwards? |
| 20:34.46 | findlay | perl, python, or ruby |
| 20:34.53 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: here's your download: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_open_source/xfree86.html |
| 20:37.32 | findlay | why is openoffice so bloated? |
| 20:37.39 | Jayce^ | java |
| 20:38.23 | vontrapp | hmmm, what to be done about vim home keys when switching between qwerty and dvorak |
| 20:40.45 | sjansen | BTW, our new site has gone live. |
| 20:40.54 | sjansen | Come get free stuff: http://www.gurulabs.com/goodies/guru+guides.php |
| 20:41.14 | sjansen | http://www.gurulabs.com/goodies/downloads.php |
| 20:43.33 | hans | vontrapp: amcnabb says don't do nothing, it works well enough |
| 20:46.07 | vontrapp | well, i guess the new locations are not terribly inconvenient, but still... nothing compared to the real vim home keys |
| 20:47.29 | vontrapp | i mean, using cv for up/down is _doable_ |
| 20:48.24 | findlay | probably sometime next year, and by then 2.0 will be out |
| 20:51.21 | *** join/#utah wps_ (~wps@207.108.169.214) |
| 20:51.35 | levi | That's what you get for compiling everything. |
| 20:52.08 | vontrapp | s/findley/findlay/g |
| 20:52.27 | Uncle_Jesse | well time to go home - adios |
| 20:55.02 | brailsmt | findlay: OOo is one i never compile... |
| 20:55.13 | brailsmt | takes about 8 days... |
| 20:55.22 | brailsmt | ^-- joke |
| 20:55.48 | brailsmt | OOo and mozilla are ones i install the binary for |
| 20:56.47 | sjansen | slashdot: "news for nerds, stuff we post" |
| 20:57.02 | sjansen | slashdot: "random selections from Taco's inbox" |
| 20:57.05 | levi | Any large C++ project... |
| 20:58.05 | brailsmt | really large |
| 21:06.26 | findlay | it's got its own STLPort, its own boost, its own freetype, all amalgamated into one huge and fragile glut of software |
| 21:06.39 | findlay | maybe even just like MS Office (: |
| 21:15.12 | vontrapp | grrrr |
| 21:15.24 | vontrapp | imms fails me again |
| 21:15.44 | findlay | ha: http://bbspot.com/toys/slashtitle/ |
| 21:17.35 | sjansen | Usenet is like Tetris for people who still remember how to read. - Joshua Heller |
| 21:18.16 | mrpull | http://64.62.165.89/ |
| 21:18.19 | mrpull | what do you see? |
| 21:18.41 | sjansen | There is no website configured at this address. |
| 21:18.44 | findlay | There is no website configured at this address. |
| 21:18.55 | findlay | You are seeing this page because there is nothing configured for the site you have requested. |
| 21:18.58 | mrpull | good. now http://laxcat.com |
| 21:19.01 | findlay | blah. |
| 21:19.15 | *** part/#utah joshc (~joshc@65.37.125.194) |
| 21:19.22 | sjansen | sadness and scary monster things |
| 21:19.33 | findlay | wierd |
| 21:20.00 | mrpull | thanks... |
| 21:20.12 | findlay | anytime |
| 21:22.24 | sjansen | mrpull: You're a red shirt? Whatever you do, don't let them send you down to explore alien planets. No matter how friendly they look. |
| 21:22.39 | vontrapp | hmmm, that slashtitle link loads a different story each time |
| 21:23.25 | sjansen | http://www.cafepress.com/redshirt.18269560 |
| 21:24.38 | hans | that's cool |
| 21:25.25 | findlay | On the eighth day, God created FORTRAN. And it was good. |
| 21:25.35 | hans | hmm, I'm wearing a red shirt today |
| 21:25.59 | mrpull | heh... not me. i'm not sure why i'm troubleshooting this for a ex coworker |
| 21:26.08 | mrpull | (maybe avoiding the pending windows patching?) |
| 21:27.10 | vontrapp | better stamp sample on this shirt! someone might copy shirts for free en masse over p2p |
| 21:29.09 | findlay | vontrapp: yeah, maybe you could use a couple of them to submit to /., or better yet set it up as a cron job |
| 21:37.37 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 21:38.02 | vontrapp | ~lart lukfugl |
| 21:41.35 | lukfugl | Hey, vontrapp! I filled in a personality quiz for you and it says you have "latent homicidal endencies" |
| 21:41.49 | lukfugl | tendencies, that is |
| 21:42.01 | vontrapp | blatant or latent? |
| 21:42.27 | vontrapp | lukfugl: why is that? |
| 21:42.32 | brailsmt | :power overwhelming |
| 21:42.35 | lukfugl | http://www.comics.com/comics/getfuzzy/ |
| 21:42.37 | brailsmt | oops too late... |
| 21:43.19 | findlay | why do girls think it is OK to walk into my apartment without knocking? |
| 21:43.23 | lukfugl | vontrapp: you want some scorched3d warmup tonight? |
| 21:43.37 | findlay | ~lart girls and their debacuhery |
| 21:43.39 | sjansen | findlay: they want to make out with you |
| 21:43.47 | findlay | no thanks |
| 21:43.57 | findlay | so much for privacy |
| 21:44.42 | findlay | it shows no respect for neither me, nor them |
| 21:45.01 | hans | it being ibot? |
| 21:45.11 | hans | oh, walking in on you |
| 21:45.20 | hans | hope they didn't walk in on you listening to strauss. |
| 21:45.40 | lukfugl | hans, doo point. ibot never respects my privacy either |
| 21:45.47 | findlay | and the most aggrivating part about it is that my roomates think it's fine to have girls in their bedroom until 1:00 AM or later |
| 21:45.51 | lukfugl | doo == good... ? |
| 21:46.00 | findlay | who knows what goes on in there |
| 21:46.04 | lukfugl | I can't believe my l33t typ1ng skillz sometimes |
| 21:46.11 | bonez39 | findlay: I had roommates like that at DT..when I was there 20 years ago.... |
| 21:46.38 | bonez39 | findlay: I just told them they had to invite enough girls up so that I could have one too..;) |
| 21:47.06 | Maquis | findlay: that sucks |
| 21:47.15 | Bradipo | findlay: Why don't you return the favor and walk in on them a few times? |
| 21:47.17 | findlay | of all the 'things' in life one of the goot things ought to be good roomates (: |
| 21:47.30 | findlay | no thanks |
| 21:47.37 | Bradipo | Haha. |
| 21:47.43 | vontrapp | my current roommate told me that the place i'm moving into this summer (raintree) is, or was in his time, the crack pot of provo/byu housing |
| 21:47.51 | findlay | most of the time I try to pretend they don't exist, but it is aggrivating |
| 21:48.02 | Bradipo | How about setting booby traps so when they walk in on you they get a face full of flour? |
| 21:48.05 | bonez39 | what's ridiculous is BYU thinking they can control every thought and action of every student, every moment of every day....as seen in their goofy housing policies... |
| 21:48.05 | findlay | really, raintree? |
| 21:48.12 | lukfugl | raintree = BYU slums, from what I've heard |
| 21:48.39 | findlay | isn't the MTC choir director your stake president? |
| 21:48.41 | bonez39 | Raintree was where they first had MTV on cable..and that caused sucha stir.....when it was wired to everyone's apartment...oh, the terror of MTV and how it would corrupt all those poor students.. |
| 21:48.49 | findlay | vontrapp? |
| 21:48.51 | *** join/#utah markl__ (mark@dsl093-225-013.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 21:49.02 | bonez39 | raintree is very old now...yeah, I'd imagine run down somewhat.... |
| 21:49.21 | bonez39 | Old Mill and Carriage Cove were hot when I was there....but they are old and needing a facelift now too |
| 21:49.26 | findlay | bro. Brenchley, that's it |
| 21:49.30 | vontrapp | i haven't actually seen inside the appartments, but my brothers tell me it's nice. the outside looks nice enough |
| 21:49.41 | vontrapp | my roommate was talking about the calibur of people that live there |
| 21:49.43 | findlay | he was my institute teacher at UVSC last year |
| 21:49.48 | bonez39 | whited sepulchres, eh? |
| 21:50.07 | dataw0lf|w | there are slums at BYU? |
| 21:50.21 | findlay | bonez39: I lived at Brentwood across the river from Carrige Cove and Old Mill |
| 21:50.25 | findlay | last year |
| 21:50.35 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, what college doesn't have them? |
| 21:50.38 | lukfugl | vontrapp: that's what I meant by slums. I haven't seen the insides either, but have heard about what does on there |
| 21:50.47 | sjansen | raintree is pretty ugle |
| 21:50.51 | lukfugl | *goes |
| 21:50.59 | sjansen | but at least it has plant life |
| 21:51.00 | dataw0lf|w | Jayce^: from what I heard, BYU is pretty up tight. I mean. how can you have a slum if you're not even allowed to drink? |
| 21:51.02 | levi | I lived in the Glenwood for a while. Heh. |
| 21:51.22 | findlay | levi: my brother lived there a couple of years ago |
| 21:51.32 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, easy, you have people who make minimum wage trying to afford housing and college |
| 21:51.36 | vontrapp | yeah, the plant life is good |
| 21:51.40 | vontrapp | and a nice river out back |
| 21:51.51 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: slums by provo standards |
| 21:52.00 | dataw0lf|w | sjansen: ah, ok. |
| 21:52.12 | dataw0lf|w | I haven't really seen a slum in Utah yet. |
| 21:52.20 | sjansen | doesn't exist here |
| 21:52.21 | dataw0lf|w | Magna seems to be trying pretty hard, though. |
| 21:52.29 | findlay | I found that living by the river was depressing, you're in the lowest part of the valley and there's trees everywhere, so you can't see very far |
| 21:52.35 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, true, but then I haven't seen a slum in the USA by brasilian or phillipino standards :) |
| 21:53.04 | sjansen | makes favela more expressive |
| 21:53.07 | Jayce^ | findlay, you are Utahn.. That's the environment that people outside of Utah like.. |
| 21:53.15 | dataw0lf|w | Jayce^: And I haven't seen one in the USA equivalent to Afghani or Iraqi standards, ;) |
| 21:53.21 | Jayce^ | good old favela's |
| 21:53.30 | bonez39 | does BYU have any thought/net police, to barge in and demand a review of student's cache fie....and cookies and such? hopefully they don't do that... |
| 21:53.37 | levi | I eventually moved to a duplex farther away from campus. It was a MUCH nicer place to live. |
| 21:53.51 | dataw0lf|w | bonez39: I thought that was called the LDS church. |
| 21:54.09 | sjansen | Old Mill and Carriage Cove are still pretty nice. |
| 21:54.10 | Jayce^ | findlay, when I first moved to Idaho, and then Utah, I had troubles because of the openness of the area |
| 21:54.45 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: nope, all the LDS church can really do to you is deny membership |
| 21:54.57 | sjansen | BYU is quite a bit more intrusive. |
| 21:55.05 | Bradipo | Jayce^: Ever been to Wyoming? :-) |
| 21:55.08 | dataw0lf|w | Wow. |
| 21:55.14 | vontrapp | findlay: i like secluded places i can retreat to, if i want openness and view, i'll ride my bike up the mountain |
| 21:55.16 | Bradipo | Might make you paranoid if you find Utah troublesome. |
| 21:55.19 | dataw0lf|w | sjansen: that's terrible. But, I guess it's a choice. |
| 21:55.20 | levi | The church is even pretty loathe to deny anyone membership, too. |
| 21:55.22 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, oh yeah... and midwest.. I couldn't stand it |
| 21:55.30 | bonez39 | dataw0lf|w: not sure these days... |
| 21:55.42 | dataw0lf|w | don't they deny you a temple pass or whatever it's called if you don't tithe? |
| 21:55.49 | bonez39 | Jayce^: openness, in what way? |
| 21:56.16 | levi | dataw0lf|w: Sure, but that's different from regular church membership. |
| 21:56.29 | Jayce^ | bonez39, it's big and flat, no trees.. sure there are some mountains in this part of utah, but still, no trees, and lots of flat areas inbetween |
| 21:56.44 | hans | Jayce^: it was a big difference coming back from connecticut too |
| 21:56.44 | bonez39 | levi: the church is basking in the glow of public praise....heaven forbid they clean out the ranks and show any shrinkage.... |
| 21:56.46 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: temple recommend, and yes a full tihing is one of the prereq's for that. But as levi says, that's above and beyond simple emmbership. |
| 21:56.48 | dataw0lf|w | Huh. So, so weird. |
| 21:56.55 | hans | more so than going to connecticut. but it made me smile real big |
| 21:57.12 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: They church is pretty hands off, actually. It's up to a persons honesty to define how observant you are. |
| 21:57.13 | lukfugl | bonez39: or heaven forbid they should allow those who are trying to improve themselves to remain in the church |
| 21:57.28 | bonez39 | my father thinks they should just go up and down the streets and ask who wants to be in or out..and have them check of the list and sign and hasta la vista....clear out the deadwood and get down to the really committed core of the membership |
| 21:57.47 | Jayce^ | bonez39, I grew up west of seattle, everything is a glacial cutout, covered with huge trees.. roads are almost tunnels in the trees |
| 21:57.58 | bonez39 | lukfugl: yeah.....I mean there is room for all......I think there needs to be some leeway.... |
| 21:58.00 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: Now if you start harassing the church, they will start to take action. |
| 21:58.21 | bonez39 | findlay: all your fault, man! |
| 21:58.30 | sjansen | But again, the church is pretty much limited to denying memebership status. Everything else is purely voluntary. |
| 21:58.32 | dataw0lf|w | sjansen: I heard this story, and I believe it, because my father told me it. When he was working in Yellowstone as a park ranger, finishing his dissertation, a park ranger he worked with (a Mormon) was having an affair. Apparently, the church got wind of it, and my Dad said these suits showed up to speak with him. |
| 21:58.41 | lukfugl | bonez39: yes. There is leeway... we're agreed on that |
| 21:58.43 | hans | I'm off to play mac-man. cya |
| 21:58.44 | levi | dataw0lf|w: Most people who don't tithe don't actually want to go to the temples, so it's not a big deal until someone's getting married. |
| 21:58.59 | bonez39 | hans: make me listen to strauss..I wouldn't complain...but it's gotta be through some BOSE equipment..;) |
| 21:59.18 | dataw0lf|w | levi: ok, so, if you're LDS, to consummate your marriage officially you have to be wed in the temple? |
| 21:59.29 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, suits would be his bishop, local leadership.. and the normal is to ask them to come discuss the problem.. |
| 21:59.34 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: Suits? No. Local leadership, maybe. Particularily if it was his wife that initiated a disciplinary council. |
| 21:59.47 | dataw0lf|w | a disciplinary council? |
| 22:00.04 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, and that also means, if they did show up, that he likely wouldn't respond to previous attempts to contact |
| 22:00.07 | dataw0lf|w | I need to read up on church doctrine, if I plan on living here. Interesting beliefs and culture. |
| 22:00.12 | Bradipo | dataw0lf|w: No, you can have a civil marriage or even common law marriage if you so desire. |
| 22:00.15 | levi | dataw0lf|w: Depends on what you mean by 'officially'. There's marriage for life, and marriage for eternity. The latter can be done only in the temple, but the former allows to people to live together without sin. |
| 22:00.19 | vontrapp | dataw0lf|w: regular marraiges are fine |
| 22:00.31 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: temple marriage = sealing. You can be "officially" married (legal and binding) without the temple. The temple sealing of the marriage brings further blessings to the marriage |
| 22:00.32 | vontrapp | they're just not eternal |
| 22:00.39 | dataw0lf|w | ah, so if you don't get married in the church, it doesn't 'carry on' to the afterlife? |
| 22:00.40 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, yeah, discuss, review with the person what they did, if they really did it (no false accusations), and if they did, discuss repentence... possibly excommunication if severe |
| 22:00.48 | Bradipo | Correct. |
| 22:00.52 | dataw0lf|w | word. |
| 22:01.11 | dataw0lf|w | Just curious, guys. |
| 22:01.13 | synic | dataw0lf|w: another interesting thing. If a wife's husband dies, and she remarries, she can't be sealed to him too. |
| 22:01.16 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: we understand |
| 22:01.26 | sjansen | synic: that recently changed |
| 22:01.31 | synic | sjansen: it did? |
| 22:01.32 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, this is #utah, curiosity is always answered :) any topic |
| 22:01.43 | synic | sjansen: so how does it all work now? |
| 22:01.52 | dataw0lf|w | that'd be uncomfortable. You get married after your husband dies, then go to the afterlife. Hahaha. That's great. |
| 22:01.52 | levi | Well, any topic that's not offensive to people. :) |
| 22:02.08 | Jayce^ | levi, yeah, guess I'd better specify that :) |
| 22:02.08 | Bradipo | synic: That's an interesting dogma to be sure. So, were the many wifes of the early practicers of polygamy not sealed? |
| 22:02.32 | dataw0lf|w | or the current practitioners. |
| 22:02.33 | sjansen | synic: You'd have to ask someone closer to the issue, just heard about in reference to and older couple we knew that was marrying aftery their spouses had died. |
| 22:02.45 | vontrapp | they were sealed, as i understand it |
| 22:02.45 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: current practitioners can't be sealed |
| 22:02.46 | shadoi | "allows to people to live together without sin." hahaha |
| 22:02.47 | shadoi | oh my. |
| 22:02.48 | levi | dataw0lf|w: The current practitioners aren't members of the official LDS church. |
| 22:02.50 | Bradipo | dataw0lf|w: polygamy is no longer allowed. |
| 22:02.50 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, current practicioners aren't "mormon" ... not LDS |
| 22:02.54 | dataw0lf|w | whoa. |
| 22:02.55 | synic | and don't you have to be married to actually get into the highest level of heaven? |
| 22:03.01 | Jayce^ | wooho, spam the answer :) |
| 22:03.02 | dataw0lf|w | sensitive subject, sorry. |
| 22:03.16 | dataw0lf|w | ... how many levels of heaven are there? |
| 22:03.17 | lukfugl | synic: yes |
| 22:03.17 | Bradipo | brailsmt: I couldn't stand being without the mountains. :-) |
| 22:03.18 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, nah, just everybody else knew that answer |
| 22:03.28 | levi | synic: Depends on what you mean by 'highest level', but technically yes. |
| 22:03.29 | Jayce^ | (you get that question a lot around here) |
| 22:03.29 | dataw0lf|w | am I allowed into heaven if I'm not in the church ? |
| 22:03.29 | Bradipo | dataw0lf|w: Not sensitive, we just want to make sure you have the facts. |
| 22:03.30 | bonez39 | In my father's house are MANY Mansions...! |
| 22:03.36 | synic | that one always bothered me a bit. |
| 22:03.44 | levi | dataw0lf|w: Depends on what you mean by 'heaven'. :) |
| 22:04.02 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: yes, but as bonez39 sssays, many mansions |
| 22:04.02 | brailsmt | people, if you think Utah is wide open in either the mind or space aspect, you really do need to get out of Utah/Idaho |
| 22:04.14 | levi | Mormon doctrine has a nicer place for unbelievers than a lot of Christian faiths, at least. |
| 22:04.15 | findlay | to a play in a concert in Richfield |
| 22:04.16 | bonez39 | Brigham Young said that if we could glimpse the lowest degree of glory beyond this life, we all slit our throats to get there and be part of that....but.... |
| 22:04.17 | findlay | later |
| 22:04.19 | dataw0lf|w | if I'm as a good a person as a Mormon, am I going to the same place? |
| 22:04.33 | findlay | bonez39: really? I thought that was an FPR |
| 22:04.36 | brailsmt | dataw0lf|w: you can |
| 22:04.37 | bonez39 | if we get there and then look and see where we COULD have been, that will be our hell, knowing what could have been.... |
| 22:04.39 | dataw0lf|w | I mean, take a Mormon guy, and take me. We both are good people, are we going to the same place? |
| 22:04.47 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: what brailsmt said |
| 22:04.52 | dataw0lf|w | how's that? |
| 22:04.56 | bonez39 | Frequently Passed around Rumor? |
| 22:04.57 | levi | dataw0lf|w: There you're getting into the grace vs. works part of salvation through atonement. |
| 22:05.08 | findlay | faith promoting rumor |
| 22:05.16 | bonez39 | ah.....a paul dunnism? |
| 22:05.21 | bonez39 | not sure.... |
| 22:05.37 | shadoi | My favorite thing about religions, is they have it all worked out so nicely. cracks me up. |
| 22:05.37 | bonez39 | aint' been over there yet.....can't say |
| 22:05.39 | Jayce^ | brailsmt, I've been out to your area before, and can't stand it :) I need cover :) |
| 22:05.51 | brailsmt | dataw0lf|w: it depends on what you accept, either in this life or in the one to come |
| 22:05.52 | findlay | like Linus Torvalds being a bishop in the Portland Oregon, North Stake |
| 22:06.08 | lukfugl | findlay: lol |
| 22:06.10 | brailsmt | findlay: lol |
| 22:06.33 | findlay | and Miguel de Icaza is an Elder's Quorm President |
| 22:06.34 | vontrapp | haha |
| 22:06.50 | levi | dataw0lf|w: The Christian doctrine states that one must be saved by the atonement of Jesus to go to Heaven. Mormonism clarifies that the highest degree of glory is reserved for those who keep their covenant of salvation with Jesus, but others may suffer for their sins and then receive lesser glory depending on their works, essentially. |
| 22:06.52 | brailsmt | and BYU will has a great football team |
| 22:07.09 | dataw0lf|w | Ok. |
| 22:07.13 | brailsmt | antoher FPR |
| 22:07.13 | lukfugl | shadoi: It just comes down to faith. If you believe there is a God, and you believe He speaks to man, why wouldn't it all be worked out. You'd assume this God has a plan, wouldn't you? |
| 22:07.16 | Bradipo | brailsmt: Correction, had a great football team. |
| 22:07.34 | brailsmt | here's hoping Bronco can deliver |
| 22:07.53 | brailsmt | Bradipo: yeah, it was just a faith promoting rumor anyways... |
| 22:07.59 | brailsmt | usually not true... |
| 22:08.00 | dataw0lf|w | levi: I basically have to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet to get into the highest level of heaven, correct? |
| 22:08.01 | brailsmt | :) |
| 22:08.14 | dataw0lf|w | according to LDS teachings. |
| 22:08.15 | shadoi | lukfugl: My conception of God has nothing in common with LDS or Catholic-ish religions. |
| 22:08.17 | levi | dataw0lf|w: Yes. |
| 22:08.21 | shadoi | lukfugl: so no, I wouldn't. |
| 22:08.21 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: Yes |
| 22:08.35 | dataw0lf|w | Heh. |
| 22:08.42 | levi | dataw0lf|w: It's not one of the direct things to accept, but it's a corollary. |
| 22:08.58 | lukfugl | shadoi: I didn't say you had to believe He had a plan matching ours... just that He would have a plan. Or is your conception of God chaotic? |
| 22:09.18 | levi | Well, you could probably argue that it is a direct thing you have to accept. I'd have to think about that. |
| 22:09.22 | dataw0lf|w | Ah, ye humanity. I love religion. |
| 22:09.33 | dataw0lf|w | Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith stated in his book, doctrines of Salvation, that there is "No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. The word "salvation," used in this context, must really mean "exaltation" because former Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated in his book Mormon Doctrine that general salvation is given to everyone regardless of belief. Personal salvation or exaltation to the highest form of Mormon heaven comes only by a |
| 22:09.33 | dataw0lf|w | ccepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of god and by following the laws of the LDS church. |
| 22:09.37 | brailsmt | dataw0lf|w: you have to jesus as your savior and then accept the ordinances required to go to heaven, joseph smith, while important, is not going to get you to "heaven" |
| 22:09.40 | shadoi | lukfugl: gnostic christians and the tao have a grasp on what I believe, but I can't really express it here. |
| 22:09.40 | Bradipo | dataw0lf|w: Well, without believing that Joseph Smith is a true prophet, then nothing he did is true. |
| 22:09.49 | lukfugl | shadoi: ok |
| 22:09.58 | dataw0lf|w | Bradipo: I guess I'm screwed then. |
| 22:10.21 | levi | dataw0lf|w: Not reaching the highest degree of exaltation isn't like going to hell, though. |
| 22:10.23 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: you've got it about right there |
| 22:10.45 | brailsmt | that quote puts it pretty succinctly |
| 22:11.04 | dataw0lf|w | levi: yeah, but I don't get the best. that's kinda crappy. |
| 22:11.10 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, correct, everbody get's the 'resurrection' no matter what, that's the salvation some see... |
| 22:11.20 | vontrapp | sometimes i think people get uneasy about the whole joseph smith thing and the importance placed upon him |
| 22:11.23 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, then you get judged and get more/less according to your works |
| 22:11.44 | dataw0lf|w | Jesus was a polygamist according to LDS doctrine / scripture ? |
| 22:11.50 | Bradipo | vontrapp: I can see how this would happen. |
| 22:11.55 | vontrapp | it's merely incidental that because he was the instrument to restore the church you have to believe that the church was restored and therefore the instrument used |
| 22:12.02 | brailsmt | dataw0lf|w: there is no official position on that |
| 22:12.02 | Jayce^ | shadoi, c'mon, IRC is the perfect forum to discuss abstract concepts |
| 22:12.05 | levi | dataw0lf|w: Perhaps there was some speculation to that effect, but it's not official doctrine. |
| 22:12.26 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: to get the best (in LDS doctrine which I believe) requires making and fulfilling certain covenants with God which are only present within the Church |
| 22:12.31 | brailsmt | dataw0lf|w: the DaVinci made a good story about jesus being married and all |
| 22:12.38 | brailsmt | err, DaVinci Code |
| 22:12.52 | dataw0lf|w | Aye, I know the Catholic mythology very, very well. |
| 22:13.13 | dataw0lf|w | and the 'anti Catholic' mythology. |
| 22:13.14 | shadoi | Jayce^: I'm not especially good at explaining my beliefs. I'm sure you're being facetious and all but... people would need to read some books I'm familiar with to fully understand. |
| 22:13.18 | dataw0lf|w | The whole Goddess thing. |
| 22:13.19 | levi | The woman who wrote the book that Dan Brown used as a source for some of his 'Jesus was married' stuff was at my wedding open house. :) |
| 22:13.27 | lukfugl | that's why membership in the Church (which presumes a testimony of Joseph Smith) would be required |
| 22:13.52 | Bradipo | dataw0lf|w: Speaking of goddesses... I saw a Madonna on a Cross in a Catholic church in Italy. |
| 22:13.56 | Jayce^ | shadoi, yeah, I'm definately being facetious, although I'd expect that a decent part of this crowd has done a good amount of reading of rather esoteric concepts.. |
| 22:13.58 | dataw0lf|w | I doubt if the LDS church would take me anyways, oh well. |
| 22:14.00 | Bradipo | Blood streaming out, etc... |
| 22:14.07 | levi | What lukfugl is saying is what I meant by believing in Joseph Smith being a corollary, not a primary belief. |
| 22:14.09 | dataw0lf|w | Bradipo: Where at in Italy? |
| 22:14.26 | shadoi | Jayce^: that would really surprise me actually. :) |
| 22:14.34 | brailsmt | dataw0lf|w: it comes down to this, everyone will have a chance to accept the ordinances and God's laws to live in the highest order of 'mormon heaven', whether you actually accept that or not is up to you, but either way, "hell" as in fire and brimstone is reserved for a very select few that have gone out of their way to get there |
| 22:14.45 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: Be careful about citing anything by McConkie, he occasionally declared absolutely what he had no right declaring absolutely. |
| 22:14.45 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: the LDS church will take anyone willing to make the lifestyle commitments. Whether you make those or not is your choice |
| 22:14.48 | Bradipo | dataw0lf|w: I have a picture of it... |
| 22:14.58 | Bradipo | It was Cosenza maybe. |
| 22:15.06 | Bradipo | I don't recall which city now. |
| 22:15.18 | dataw0lf|w | lukfugl: Oh, i've already broken most of the rules. |
| 22:15.36 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: doesn't mean you can't repent. There are very few sins you can't repent of |
| 22:15.59 | dataw0lf|w | Bradipo: Ah, cool, I lived in Europe for several years, and I'm a second generation American on my Dad's side (from Italy) |
| 22:16.02 | brailsmt | err... like one |
| 22:16.06 | vontrapp | haven't we all broken rules.... |
| 22:16.07 | Bradipo | dataw0lf|w: What part? |
| 22:16.27 | dataw0lf|w | Bradipo: most of my family is Venetian. |
| 22:16.34 | dataw0lf|w | father's side, that is. |
| 22:16.53 | Bradipo | Cool, I've never been up north. I was mostly in Sicily and lower part of the mainland. |
| 22:17.08 | lukfugl | I would love to visit the mediterranean sometime |
| 22:17.12 | dataw0lf|w | yeah, I traveled down to Sicily a couple times, very pretty. |
| 22:17.29 | dataw0lf|w | brailsmt: I really doubt if I'd be accepted ;) |
| 22:17.29 | Bradipo | Indeed it is. |
| 22:17.37 | Bradipo | And you can't beat the food either. :-) |
| 22:17.38 | shadoi | brailsmt: the unforgiveable is forsaking God? IIRC... |
| 22:17.40 | brailsmt | and there is no official doctrine, other than one sin being unforgiveable... |
| 22:17.44 | Jayce^ | brailsmt, key point you mentioned, it's not for *us* to decide.. might be forgivable later, but not here |
| 22:17.51 | dataw0lf|w | Italy / Spain / Ireland <-- best countries to visit in Europe. |
| 22:17.55 | dataw0lf|w | brailsmt: what sin is that? |
| 22:18.13 | brailsmt | dataw0lf|w: one you cannot have possibly committed :) |
| 22:18.14 | Jayce^ | shadoi, forsaking God after have a *full* knowledge (key point) |
| 22:18.25 | dataw0lf|w | brailsmt: What sin is it? |
| 22:18.33 | brailsmt | what Jayce^ said |
| 22:18.36 | sjansen | although *full* isn't completely defined |
| 22:18.37 | shadoi | aye... full knowledge. aka impossible in this lifetime I'd imagine. heh. |
| 22:18.39 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: what Jayce^ said |
| 22:18.44 | dataw0lf|w | Ah. |
| 22:19.09 | dataw0lf|w | I understand, yeah, probably couldn't have committed that one. |
| 22:19.11 | brailsmt | in a nutshell, you have to be on a level of righteousness as a prophet and then turn around an actively fight against all that you know |
| 22:19.15 | lukfugl | shadoi: not impossible, but rare and not given to most |
| 22:19.15 | sjansen | The general drift seems to be that few people will qualify for total condemnation. |
| 22:19.23 | Jayce^ | shadoi, yeah, the kinda person that get's their name as a book in the bible :) |
| 22:19.27 | lukfugl | thus most people are incapable of commiting the one unforgivable sin |
| 22:19.43 | dataw0lf|w | I've committed alot, but apparently I'm still safe. |
| 22:19.50 | dataw0lf|w | sweet. |
| 22:19.53 | brailsmt | dataw0lf|w: there is still hope :) |
| 22:19.59 | shadoi | Jayce^: bah.. many authors of the bible were pseudonyms used to mask political maneuverings. |
| 22:20.00 | dataw0lf|w | ;) |
| 22:20.09 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: yup |
| 22:20.22 | Jayce^ | shadoi, yes, but I was relating the level of knowledge, and responsibility |
| 22:20.48 | brailsmt | murder and adultery after being married in a Mormon temple are the othertwo that almost unforgiveable... you should be good to go there too... |
| 22:21.18 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 22:22.00 | dataw0lf|w | Why the separate LUGs, btw? |
| 22:22.11 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, distance |
| 22:22.11 | vontrapp | brailsmt: oh, i agree there |
| 22:22.25 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: better safe than sorry (re: still safe) |
| 22:22.28 | dataw0lf|w | That confused me. I've been on the SLLUG mailing list for months, and it was extremely low traffic, I joined the PLUG ml today, more in one day than a week of SLLUG. |
| 22:22.32 | lukfugl | brailsmt: not to be contrary or excuse adultery, but I thought that one was quite a bit easier than murder? |
| 22:22.36 | dataw0lf|w | sjansen: hehe. |
| 22:22.36 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: geography (re: LUGs) |
| 22:22.38 | brailsmt | it all started when i brought my trackball to work, and had to figure out how to get working... |
| 22:22.43 | shadoi | A lot of research has been done attempting to deduce who the actual authors of (especially the new testament) bible were. And how some books tend to refute things laid out as fact in others. John especially. |
| 22:23.20 | shadoi | Elaine Pagels has some very interesting books on the subject. |
| 22:23.21 | brailsmt | lukfugl: probably, but some of that is current societal values leaching in... |
| 22:23.44 | dataw0lf|w | How far is Provo, then? |
| 22:23.50 | dataw0lf|w | hour or so? |
| 22:23.53 | dataw0lf|w | (from SLC) |
| 22:23.55 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, where are you? |
| 22:24.01 | Jayce^ | ah |
| 22:24.02 | vontrapp | 30-45 min |
| 22:24.03 | dataw0lf|w | Smack dab in the middle of SLC. |
| 22:24.06 | lukfugl | brailsmt: well, I agree that the repentance process after adultery in a temple marriage is long and difficult, but it's not uncommon to hear of repentant adulterers back in the temple |
| 22:24.17 | Jayce^ | maybe up to an hour, with bad traffic |
| 22:24.22 | lukfugl | repentant murderers back in the temple is much less likely (in this life, anyways) |
| 22:24.25 | brailsmt | lukfugl: yes, but it usually taes years |
| 22:24.28 | bucky | shadoi, you mean John didn't write John? |
| 22:24.39 | dataw0lf|w | I'm tempted to come. But the Java development topic, ehh. ;) |
| 22:24.54 | shadoi | bucky: no, John was written by someone attempting to be-little Thomas. |
| 22:24.54 | vontrapp | come to mythtv next month :) |
| 22:24.58 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf|w, going to be a good flamewar, the presenter is fun for that :) |
| 22:25.05 | brailsmt | lukfugl: in fact, I would not be surprised if the church made an out and out declaration that if you murder, do not expect to rejoin the church in this life... |
| 22:25.10 | dataw0lf|w | Jayce^: hehe, yeah. |
| 22:25.19 | lukfugl | brailsmt: nor would I |
| 22:25.33 | bucky | shadoi, i find that without merit |
| 22:25.44 | brailsmt | anyway... |
| 22:25.55 | lukfugl | anyway, I think we've exhausted that thread :) |
| 22:25.57 | shadoi | bucky: yeah.. go ahead and dismiss it before you read about it and see the research. ;) |
| 22:26.10 | brailsmt | look, I don't think we pissed anyone off... |
| 22:26.11 | brailsmt | :) |
| 22:26.18 | dataw0lf|w | or need to. |
| 22:26.31 | brailsmt | its a first for an IRC discussion involving religion and mormons... |
| 22:26.40 | brailsmt | :D |
| 22:26.40 | lukfugl | brailsmt: :) |
| 22:26.44 | bucky | shadoi, let's talk about something i have researched... where can i find someone that claim authorship of the BOM ? |
| 22:26.56 | *** join/#utah me (~me@67.50.46.118) |
| 22:27.11 | shadoi | bucky: umm. Joseph Smith? :) |
| 22:27.17 | dataw0lf|w | How about everyone just realizes the whole point of religion is faith and trying to prove these little details is absurd, eh? |
| 22:27.17 | bucky | shadoi, i haven't found any Lamanites that claim authorship |
| 22:27.20 | brailsmt | bucky: in the book itself... |
| 22:27.36 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: amen |
| 22:27.40 | me | amen |
| 22:27.41 | vontrapp | dataw0lf|w: here here |
| 22:27.42 | shadoi | bucky: Find me some proof that Lamanites were an actual people, and I'll listen to ya. |
| 22:27.48 | Bradipo | bucky: I believe the author identifies himself at the end of BoM. |
| 22:27.54 | bucky | shadoi, my point exactly |
| 22:27.54 | me | oops pavlovian slip |
| 22:28.03 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: most of us feel that we, but can't resist hitting back when provoked |
| 22:28.11 | shadoi | bucky: parts of the bible can be historically corroborated, the BOM can't make such claims. |
| 22:28.35 | brailsmt | dangit, i knew it couldn't last... |
| 22:28.41 | Bradipo | shadoi: Well, did the people of countries involved keep a record? |
| 22:28.58 | shadoi | Bradipo: which countries? involved in what? |
| 22:29.06 | dataw0lf|w | sjansen: Oh, I understand, I do the same thing when religious fanatics try to shove their beliefs on me. |
| 22:29.08 | Bradipo | The countries involved in the writings of the BoM. |
| 22:29.20 | shadoi | lukfugl: blind faith is just another word for ignorance. |
| 22:29.28 | bucky | shadoi, http://lhvm.org/dna_view.htm |
| 22:29.30 | dataw0lf|w | I certainly don't see the need to argue religion though. If people are happy believing in what they believe, good for them. |
| 22:29.31 | lukfugl | shadoi: never said blind faith, did I? |
| 22:29.34 | Bradipo | And ignorance is just another word for bliss. |
| 22:29.53 | bucky | shadoi, that's the proof that lamanites where real people http://lhvm.org/dna_view.htm |
| 22:29.58 | shadoi | lukfugl: faith without investigation is blind. |
| 22:30.18 | shadoi | Bradipo: I won't argue there. :) |
| 22:30.19 | dataw0lf|w | However.. |
| 22:30.19 | sjansen | shadoi: we recognize alternate forms of investigation |
| 22:30.22 | lukfugl | shadoi: investigation doesn't need to be rational -- spiritual investigation is just as valid |
| 22:30.33 | lukfugl | if you don't recognize that or accept it, we have nothing to discuss |
| 22:30.48 | dataw0lf|w | bucky: if you're going to do that, then you should pull up the hundreds of DNA investigations on the ties between native americans and israelis. |
| 22:30.59 | dataw0lf|w | Which have been proven false. |
| 22:31.02 | bucky | dataw0lf|w, there aren't any |
| 22:31.10 | shadoi | lukfugl: rationality is slightly more important to me then I guess. :) |
| 22:31.17 | bucky | the native americans are from asiatic origin |
| 22:31.25 | brailsmt | my most major gripe with Utah is people trying to shove their beliefs down your throat... neighbors trying to make sure that they are more righteous than the next, ridiculous bickering in sunday school over little insignifcant bits trivia... |
| 22:31.35 | brailsmt | and i am a mormon... |
| 22:31.38 | brailsmt | *sigh* |
| 22:32.00 | dataw0lf|w | bucky: certainly there are. My father did research on it for 5 years. |
| 22:32.06 | Bradipo | brailsmt: You must live in the wrong neighborhood. |
| 22:32.14 | lukfugl | brailsmt: most non-native Utahn mormons (and from my experience a good portion of native Utahn mormons) agree with you |
| 22:32.20 | brailsmt | Bradipo: it was worst in wymount |
| 22:32.22 | dataw0lf|w | bucky: http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_migr1.htm |
| 22:33.00 | brailsmt | wymount was 1.5 years of a worthiness arms race... |
| 22:33.07 | shadoi | bucky: I've seen the DNA research, and I'm not sure why you're validating my argument, but thanks. :) |
| 22:33.08 | brailsmt | anyway... |
| 22:33.37 | Bradipo | shadoi: He's validating it to support your view. |
| 22:33.44 | me | brailsmt: isn't that more a function of age than mormonness? |
| 22:34.05 | brailsmt | me: its a function, I have found of mono-culturism |
| 22:34.07 | me | brailsmt: young ppl are competetive |
| 22:34.10 | sjansen | me: a function of agge and geography |
| 22:34.11 | dataw0lf|w | bucky: I do have a problem with people trying to argue religion logically. Religion, by definition, is illogical |
| 22:34.16 | shadoi | All the DNA evidence ever found points to asiatic origin for all native americans. |
| 22:34.32 | dataw0lf|w | which the church has even relented on. |
| 22:34.46 | shadoi | What's more, there's mention of horses, and iron in the BOM which didn't exist in the americas until the spanish arrived. It doesn't jive. |
| 22:34.53 | dataw0lf|w | Recent attacks on the veracity of the Book of Mormon based on DNA evidence are ill considered. Nothing in the Book of Mormon precludes migration into the Americas by peoples of Asiatic origin. The scientific issues relating to DNA, however, are numerous and complex. |
| 22:35.04 | dataw0lf|w | ^-- official quote from LDS church. |
| 22:35.30 | dataw0lf|w | So let's just drop it, I'm happy that people find beliefs that suit them and make them better people. |
| 22:35.45 | brailsmt | BOM never states that Lehi and his family were the first people on the continent |
| 22:36.07 | Jayce^ | brailsmt, actually, it states the opposite of that :) |
| 22:36.07 | sjansen | shadoi: There's plenty of things that science and rationality don't explain. |
| 22:36.21 | shadoi | I'm hot on the topic because this was an area where I sought to find validation for the BOM and only found huge gaping issues that I couldn't reconcile... it started my investigation into other religions and religious history in general. |
| 22:36.25 | Bradipo | brailsmt: I don't believe it makes any claims at all about who was here first. |
| 22:36.30 | brailsmt | science is not the answer to all of mans questions |
| 22:36.31 | sjansen | shadoi: The fact is that gravity existed for a long time until Newton described it. |
| 22:36.40 | Bradipo | It has a record of people that existed here before Lehi, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were the first either. |
| 22:37.28 | dataw0lf|w | alright, I'm heading home, if I have the chance I'll try to make to the meeting. |
| 22:37.28 | shadoi | sjansen: I'm not taking a purely scientific view point, so I won't be drawn into your argument. I totally agree that science doesn't have all the answers. |
| 22:37.33 | sjansen | There are large parts of physics that are a question mark right now. Some that appear to be in conflict. It just means we don't have all the facts yet. |
| 22:37.40 | brailsmt | DNA can't prove religious beliefs of an indiginous people... |
| 22:37.47 | lukfugl | dataw0lf|w: cya |
| 22:37.54 | lukfugl | thanks for the discussion :) |
| 22:38.01 | lukfugl | and good tempreament |
| 22:38.07 | shadoi | ah... basketball. |
| 22:38.08 | sjansen | shadoi: You'll note I didn't limit it to science but also rational thought. Science is just an easier source of examples. |
| 22:38.15 | dataw0lf|w | no problem ;) I try to 'discuss' rather than 'argue'... at least when it comes to religion. |
| 22:38.16 | dataw0lf|w | cya. |
| 22:38.41 | brailsmt | cya |
| 22:40.34 | lukfugl | vontrapp: you never answered my question... scorched3d today? |
| 22:41.25 | vontrapp | perhaps, i have institute later on |
| 22:41.58 | vontrapp | lukfugl: so are you coming to the fragathon tomorrow then? |
| 22:42.10 | lukfugl | what time is institute? I'll be ready to play about 6pm (have to wash dishes after work, new dishwasher doesn't come till Saturday) |
| 22:42.21 | vontrapp | 7:00 |
| 22:42.27 | lukfugl | vontrapp: can't |
| 22:42.29 | Jayce^ | just in time for plug :) |
| 22:42.42 | vontrapp | ? i'm confused now |
| 22:42.44 | lukfugl | Jayce^: yeah, but it's a *Java* plug ;) |
| 22:42.52 | Jayce^ | java *flamewar* plug :) |
| 22:43.02 | sjansen | lukfugl: bring rotten fruit |
| 22:43.03 | lukfugl | hmmm... you're tempting me :) |
| 22:43.14 | lukfugl | is there a PM meeting before it? |
| 22:43.16 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 22:43.29 | vontrapp | lukfugl: i could play at 6:00 till 7:00 |
| 22:43.30 | lukfugl | what topic? |
| 22:43.40 | Jayce^ | I'm doing an intro to switches in perl.. |
| 22:43.49 | lukfugl | Perl Switches? |
| 22:44.02 | levi | The kind of switches you use to beat people with? ;) |
| 22:44.03 | Jayce^ | -w, -W, -h ... |
| 22:44.07 | lukfugl | ah |
| 22:44.21 | lukfugl | I was thinking, "Case statements?" |
| 22:44.24 | sjansen | not exactly and exciting title for a topic |
| 22:44.50 | Jayce^ | a more introductory course, was requested by some newer folk |
| 22:45.15 | lukfugl | I'll probably pass on NUPM then, but I'll be considering the PLUG meeting |
| 22:45.40 | lukfugl | hard to pass up a planned flamewar :) |
| 22:46.29 | Jayce^ | especially with our local self-proclaimed java bigot |
| 22:46.44 | levi | Java on Linux. Perl Switches. Hmm, I think I'll pass on both of those. |
| 22:51.04 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-213.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 22:51.39 | vontrapp | did i miss anything in that outage? |
| 22:52.08 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:53.05 | levi | Yay, my Practical Common Lisp copy is on a UPS truck now. |
| 22:55.08 | Jayce^ | my Higher Order Perl book left Ohio this morning :) |
| 22:55.27 | lukfugl | my Pickaxe II is ... still in the store? |
| 22:56.09 | vontrapp | my new 120G mythtv harddrive is .... still in the store too :( |
| 22:56.41 | Jayce^ | my epic plate set is still in the Auction House :( |
| 22:58.37 | lukfugl | well, I'm headed home |
| 22:58.55 | vontrapp | actually, what i really want right now is a complete bike tool set - cog wrenches, chain whips, spoke and hub wrenches etc. |
| 23:16.13 | levi | Mmm, bike tools. |
| 23:16.20 | levi | I need to fix my mountain bike. |
| 23:16.24 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org) |
| 23:17.02 | levi | A bunch of my cables are shot, which makes my derailleurs and brakes perform poorly. |
| 23:17.15 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (~amcnabb@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 23:20.38 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@pool-68-162-241-201.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:21.33 | sjansen | coincidence? I think not |
| 23:27.05 | amcnabb | What's the cause, then? |
| 23:28.06 | sjansen | perhaps planning a return to power? |
| 23:33.01 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (~emcnabb@pool-141-154-77-131.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:36.13 | *** join/#utah emcnabb__ (~emcnabb@pool-141-154-77-131.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:37.41 | amcnabb | Wow. Evan sure likes joining #utah. :) |
| 23:41.37 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 23:43.47 | *** part/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 23:52.08 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@pool-68-162-211-14.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:58.35 | *** join/#utah fugalh (~fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 23:59.00 | fugalh | ~lart hans |
