| 00:13.56 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (~emcnabb@pool-68-160-167-183.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:17.20 | *** join/#utah emcnabb__ (~emcnabb@pool-68-160-167-183.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:23.54 | levi | Hmm, very interesting interview with MJD: http://www.theperlreview.com/Interviews/mjd-hop-20050407.html?up |
| 00:26.01 | Newsome | MJD = Miller Jenuine Draft? |
| 00:27.26 | Newsome | Mighty Java Developers? |
| 00:27.33 | Newsome | Most Just Don't? |
| 00:27.34 | levi | He's a guy who's apparently prominent in the perl dev community. |
| 00:28.58 | levi | Time for me to go home. |
| 00:31.29 | xbmodder | ? |
| 00:32.15 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org) |
| 00:56.02 | *** join/#utah Red_Hat (~al@c-24-10-202-248.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:07.31 | Maquis | anyone else having problems connecting to jabber.plug.org? |
| 01:15.30 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org) |
| 01:15.47 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:17.24 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf- (~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org) |
| 01:20.00 | *** join/#utah byronc (~byron@209.197.11.63) |
| 01:23.32 | *** part/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 01:34.53 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@c-67-161-219-228.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:50.23 | *** join/#utah mrpull_ (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:06.10 | *** join/#utah indessed (~ross@71-36-72-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 02:10.22 | *** join/#utah markl_ (mark@dsl093-225-013.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 02:48.02 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 02:56.35 | *** join/#utah byronc (~byron@209.197.11.63) |
| 03:00.09 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org) |
| 03:05.04 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf- (~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org) |
| 03:12.03 | LeviHome | Quiet night. |
| 03:20.03 | *** join/#utah flyboy^ (~flyboy@69.20.57.22) |
| 03:21.08 | fishyfire | yep |
| 03:22.13 | LeviHome | What's up? |
| 03:24.33 | flyboy^ | The sky. |
| 03:24.39 | flyboy^ | The moon. |
| 03:24.41 | flyboy^ | The clouds. |
| 03:24.47 | flyboy^ | Some airplanes and birds. |
| 03:25.50 | flyboy^ | Would you like me to go on? |
| 03:25.51 | flyboy^ | Now - qualify it and it could get interesting. :) |
| 03:26.00 | flyboy^ | What's up ... with SCO. ;-) |
| 03:27.17 | flyboy^ | Has anyone heard anything interesting regarding SCO latley? |
| 03:30.39 | fishyfire | programs are up |
| 03:47.12 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~cougarcom@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 04:09.23 | mrpull_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:09.30 | mrpull_ | hrrmmm |
| 04:10.26 | mrpull_ | anyone use plone? |
| 04:12.50 | LeviHome | Nope. |
| 04:13.14 | mrpull_ | any cms's? |
| 04:13.38 | mrpull_ | i figure plone might be good because I'm interested in python |
| 04:13.40 | LeviHome | Drupal |
| 04:13.55 | mrpull_ | why did you choose it over the million others? |
| 04:15.10 | LeviHome | I don't remember all the reasons. |
| 04:15.16 | mrpull_ | :) |
| 04:15.18 | LeviHome | It looked like a good fit at the time. |
| 04:15.36 | LeviHome | I'm planning on ditching it now, though, and rolling my own in Lisp. |
| 04:15.47 | LeviHome | I'm partway into that project now. |
| 04:16.08 | mrpull_ | oh boy. i thought about using one that wasn't php based... but lisp? |
| 04:16.27 | LeviHome | I like lisp, and it turns out to be a very nice web programming language. |
| 04:16.44 | fishyfire | can anyone explain Comparable (java) |
| 04:16.58 | LeviHome | See http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ |
| 04:17.00 | fishyfire | i am not completely understanding it |
| 04:17.20 | LeviHome | Sorry, I don't know that part of Java. |
| 04:18.21 | mrpull_ | sadly, all i know about lisp is there are a lot of parenthesis |
| 04:18.29 | fishyfire | i've been trying to look up Comparable and get a lot of stuff about compareTo |
| 04:20.34 | fishyfire | which is part of it.... |
| 04:20.34 | LeviHome | mrpull_: Read the book freely available at that URL, and then you will know lots about it. :) |
| 04:20.34 | mrpull_ | are there code repositories for common stuff ala cpan? |
| 04:21.03 | LeviHome | mrpull_: To some degree, yes. |
| 04:21.29 | LeviHome | http://www.cliki.net/asdf-install |
| 04:26.15 | LeviHome | The book at http://gigamonkeys.com/book is very good, though, and is worth looking at. |
| 04:26.38 | mrpull_ | yeah. i read the "simple database chapter" |
| 04:27.01 | mrpull_ | it looks powerful, but the syntax (too many parens) could make me nuts |
| 04:27.08 | LeviHome | You get used to it. |
| 04:27.13 | mrpull_ | probably so. |
| 04:27.21 | LeviHome | The editor takes care of it for you, for the most part. |
| 04:27.57 | mrpull_ | i guess if the editor helps match the parens that'd be a start |
| 04:33.00 | Maquis | any C gurus out here? |
| 04:35.11 | LeviHome | I don't know that I'm a guru, but I know it fairly well. |
| 04:35.34 | LeviHome | mrpull_: Emacs is pretty much made for editing lisp, and there are emacs modes that do all sorts of helpful things for you. |
| 04:35.49 | Maquis | LeviHome: we're having a discussion in my cs345 class about how a compiler should handle a couple particular issues |
| 04:36.17 | LeviHome | mrpull_: vim does a decent job of highlighting, and % will show you the matching paren, so it's usable, but with a lesser level of integration than emacs. |
| 04:36.20 | Maquis | gcc and old versions of lcc are handling it one way, and borland C and new versions of lcc are handling it differently |
| 04:36.31 | LeviHome | What issue? |
| 04:36.41 | LeviHome | (s)? |
| 04:37.25 | Maquis | general line is: |
| 04:37.34 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:37.55 | Maquis | if you'd like, i can stick the function we're looking at in a pastebin-ish spot |
| 04:38.36 | Maquis | http://pastebin.com/270293 |
| 04:38.40 | Maquis | (in case you care) |
| 04:39.08 | brailsmt | Maquis: while(s1++ = s2++); will copy the s2 string to s1 |
| 04:39.54 | LeviHome | What's with the php stuff? |
| 04:40.16 | Maquis | LeviHome: the pastebin is actually for php code... but is useful for everything else |
| 04:40.20 | Maquis | :) |
| 04:40.26 | brailsmt | Maquis: it appears to me that that while you posted will give you an infinite loop |
| 04:40.51 | Maquis | brailsmt: the problem is that because of the order in which things are being incremented, fileName is getting an empty string |
| 04:40.59 | brailsmt | i will forever go back and forth between 0 and 1 |
| 04:41.13 | brailsmt | nm |
| 04:41.45 | Maquis | (if you look at the code in the pastebin site, it might help with understanding why it's getting an empty string |
| 04:41.57 | Maquis | but other compilers are getting 'abc' instead of '' |
| 04:42.01 | brailsmt | Maquis: the problem is that you are using an incremented variable... |
| 04:42.03 | Maquis | the other question i had is this: |
| 04:42.21 | Maquis | brailsmt: yes... we are using two... and the compilers don't seem standardized on how to handle it |
| 04:42.43 | Maquis | bro. roper had no problems with getting things to print out without having a \n at the end... |
| 04:42.46 | LeviHome | So, gcc is incrementing after the division and before the assignment? |
| 04:42.56 | Maquis | but for me, nothing prints out after the last \n... |
| 04:43.13 | brailsmt | do you have to use the variable i? |
| 04:43.15 | Maquis | i'm guessing it has something to do with flushing buffers or something |
| 04:43.29 | Maquis | brailsmt: this is the code that bro roper sent us... i just copied it in... |
| 04:44.04 | Maquis | we've been discovering that people were getting very different results from the same code, and so he sent a minimal version that just covered the areas of difference... |
| 04:44.11 | brailsmt | you know you can declare arrays in gcc 3.4 with non const length? ie, int foo[func()]; |
| 04:44.23 | Maquis | brailsmt: i didn't know that! |
| 04:44.32 | brailsmt | actually is a C99 extension |
| 04:44.38 | Maquis | cool |
| 04:44.43 | LeviHome | Maquis: Anyway, what you are doing there is Bad. |
| 04:44.58 | LeviHome | As in, the behavior is undefined. |
| 04:45.07 | LeviHome | Which is why you're seeing different behavior from compilers. |
| 04:45.26 | Maquis | LeviHome: bro. roper is realizing that that was good... but i was wondering if there's a "standard" way that compilers are "supposed" to handle it |
| 04:45.35 | Maquis | or is it just the compiler-writer's prerogative? |
| 04:45.41 | LeviHome | Maquis: No, that's what 'undefined' means. |
| 04:45.50 | Maquis | ok... |
| 04:45.54 | Maquis | i'll report that back, then... |
| 04:46.03 | LeviHome | http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/q3.1.html |
| 04:47.00 | brailsmt | you can also use ranges in case statements and array creation. ie case [1 .. 3]: will match from 1 to 3, and int foo[4] = {[0]=1, [2 .. 3] = 4} will yields foo = { 1, 0, 4, 4 } |
| 04:47.07 | LeviHome | Tell him your friends on IRC told you his code was an ugly, nasty hack. ;) |
| 04:48.30 | brailsmt | and he should change it to 'char s[4] = { 'a', 'b', 'c', 0x0 }; while(fileName++ = s++);, or better yet, memcpy(fileName, fileName, 4) |
| 04:48.42 | brailsmt | or just strcpy(fileName, s) |
| 04:48.58 | Maquis | brailsmt: the actual case there is contrived |
| 04:49.16 | Maquis | it's an attempt to simplify things to determine where the differences are between compilers |
| 04:49.41 | brailsmt | just telling you how the issue can be fixed in ways that do not depend on compilers... |
| 04:49.51 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 04:50.45 | brailsmt | let's see what other nuggets in CUJ this month? |
| 04:50.46 | Maquis | brailsmt: yeah... |
| 04:50.48 | Maquis | i understand... |
| 04:50.52 | LeviHome | Maquis: How did this come up? |
| 04:51.44 | LeviHome | Maquis: This entry is relevant, too: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/q11.33.html |
| 04:52.01 | Maquis | the actual situation is in the FAT filesystem, there's some place where a filename is stored with a \0 in between each character... a number of people were having problems with his code to handle that, because it was sending back '', while others were getting the filename out just fine... his compiler worked fine with it... |
| 04:52.08 | Maquis | and he thought it was a pretty elegant solution |
| 04:52.13 | Maquis | although, given that it doesn't work.... |
| 04:52.14 | brailsmt | int i; typeof(i) j; <-- j is a variable of whatever type i is... |
| 04:52.38 | brailsmt | err, you need tree dots for a range to work right... |
| 04:52.54 | brailsmt | typeof is like sizeof in that it is compile time... |
| 04:52.59 | LeviHome | Maquis: Using the language in an undefined manner definitely falls in the 'nasty hack' category, though it might be considered elegant by some if it was defined behavior. |
| 04:53.49 | Maquis | LeviHome: i think that, since he hadn't tried it on any other compilers, he hadn't realized that there were problems... |
| 04:53.52 | LeviHome | 'undefined' is pretty much the worst of the categories of stuff that compilers may differ in. |
| 04:53.57 | Maquis | this is actually the second time that something like this has come up in class... |
| 04:54.13 | LeviHome | Well, he ought to be more familiar with the language! ;) |
| 04:54.44 | brailsmt | int foo(int * i, int * j) __attribute__((nonnull (2))); will throw a compile time error if j is passed a NULL |
| 04:54.52 | LeviHome | I think the pre/post-increment operators are kind of nasty anyway. |
| 04:55.12 | brailsmt | is it a compilers class? |
| 04:55.26 | LeviHome | Operating Systems class, I think. |
| 04:55.43 | Maquis | yeah... Operating Systems... |
| 04:55.54 | brailsmt | ouch, the prof should know better... |
| 04:56.04 | LeviHome | Anyway, that particular line is not the least bit elegant, in my opinion. |
| 04:56.04 | Maquis | brailsmt: yeah... probably... |
| 04:57.20 | brailsmt | not at all, it requires s to be defined as { 0, 'a', 0 , 'b', 0, 'c', 0 } for it to work, which is just obscene... |
| 04:57.29 | LeviHome | My reason for thinking so is that, aside from being undefined, it's not very clear. Brevity is nice, but not at the cost of clarity. |
| 04:57.55 | LeviHome | brailsmt: That's a given, though. It's the way something is defined in FAT. |
| 04:58.03 | brailsmt | oops i forgot a 0 |
| 04:58.08 | LeviHome | brailsmt: The line I have an issue with is the while with the postincrementors. |
| 04:58.25 | LeviHome | Which is the supposed elegant solution to getting rid of the nulls. |
| 05:02.00 | brailsmt | why not something like: for(; fileName + i/2 = s + i++; i++); |
| 05:02.10 | LeviHome | A much clearer solution is for (i = 1; s[i] != 0; i +=2) { fileName[i] = s[i]; } |
| 05:02.34 | Maquis | ok... |
| 05:02.37 | Maquis | i'll pass that back to him |
| 05:02.45 | brailsmt | errr... |
| 05:02.53 | Maquis | any ideas on the other question about whether a \n is needed at the end of a line? |
| 05:03.01 | brailsmt | for(int i = 1; fileName + i/2 = s + i++; i++); <-- thats better |
| 05:03.19 | LeviHome | brailsmt: I beg to differ. |
| 05:04.02 | brailsmt | better than my first one, yours is definately cleaner... |
| 05:04.11 | LeviHome | Oh, okay. |
| 05:04.14 | Maquis | brailsmt: with your addition" |
| 05:04.16 | Maquis | [sekhmet cs345] gcc -o foo foo.c |
| 05:04.16 | Maquis | foo.c: In function `main': |
| 05:04.17 | Maquis | foo.c:16: error: invalid lvalue in assignment |
| 05:04.20 | brailsmt | for(int i = 1; fileName + i/2 = s + i; i+=2); <-- thats better |
| 05:04.28 | brailsmt | err... |
| 05:04.39 | brailsmt | i forgot to delete the last bit |
| 05:05.36 | Maquis | brailsmt: same error... |
| 05:05.39 | LeviHome | Array names can't be lvalus. |
| 05:05.41 | LeviHome | lvalues. |
| 05:05.51 | LeviHome | If fileName was a pointer, that might work. |
| 05:05.57 | brailsmt | dang... |
| 05:05.57 | Maquis | oh... |
| 05:06.00 | brailsmt | oh well.. |
| 05:06.20 | LeviHome | (I spent time reading the K&R book while in a hospital waiting room for 4 hours) |
| 05:06.22 | brailsmt | for(int i = 1; fileName[i/2] = s[i]; i+=2); |
| 05:06.29 | Maquis | LeviHome: your code only prints out 'a' while it's supposed to be printing out 'abc' |
| 05:07.25 | LeviHome | Oh, right. |
| 05:07.26 | Maquis | brailsmt: that works correctly |
| 05:07.31 | brailsmt | for(int i = 0, j = 1; fileName[i] = s[j]; i++, j += 2); |
| 05:08.00 | LeviHome | I needed the i/2 in the fileName array reference. |
| 05:08.05 | brailsmt | why the need to use a single varaiable? |
| 05:08.39 | LeviHome | I'd do the assignment in the body of the for loop, but would otherwise agree with that one. |
| 05:10.17 | LeviHome | for (int i = 0, j = 1; s[j] != 0; i++, j +=2) { fileName[i] = s[j]; } |
| 05:10.30 | Maquis | ok... |
| 05:10.34 | Maquis | now, the other question: |
| 05:10.39 | LeviHome | The {}'s probably aren't required, but I tend to include them in case I want to add to the body later. |
| 05:10.42 | Maquis | what about the \n at the end or beginning of the printf |
| 05:10.43 | Maquis | ? |
| 05:11.09 | LeviHome | What about it? I missed that part of your question. |
| 05:11.13 | Maquis | ok... |
| 05:11.22 | Maquis | so, his code doesn't have a \n at the end... |
| 05:11.47 | LeviHome | At the end of...? |
| 05:11.53 | Maquis | in order for the "Before: 20" "After: 21" section to work, I had to add a printf("\n"); to the end of the code |
| 05:11.58 | Maquis | LeviHome: the end of main |
| 05:12.06 | Maquis | he does this in all of his code, though |
| 05:12.21 | Maquis | he sticks his \n at the beginning of printfs instead of the end of them... which throws me for a bit of a loop |
| 05:12.43 | Maquis | A) is it just a buffer flushing problem? because it seems that his code works fine in windows with LCC and Borland |
| 05:13.01 | Maquis | B) is there a "preferred" way to do this? is it beginning or end of the line? |
| 05:13.45 | LeviHome | Most code I've seen has \n at the end. |
| 05:14.14 | Maquis | LeviHome: ok... and is it a buffer flushing problem? |
| 05:14.43 | LeviHome | What is the problem? That your shell prompt ends up on the same line as the last of your output? |
| 05:15.02 | Maquis | LeviHome: it's not ever printing the last line of output unless i stick a \n at the end |
| 05:15.06 | Maquis | it just ignores those printfs |
| 05:15.06 | LeviHome | You say 'to get it to work' without explaining the failure mode. |
| 05:15.15 | Maquis | i'm assuming they got stuck in the buffer... |
| 05:15.23 | Maquis | they just don't get printed at all |
| 05:15.26 | LeviHome | Yes, that sounds like a buffer flushing problem. |
| 05:15.43 | Maquis | is that a distinction between compilers, or between windoze and linux, or what?> |
| 05:16.20 | LeviHome | I would guess it's a C library thing, if not an OS thing. |
| 05:16.46 | Maquis | ok... |
| 05:16.49 | Maquis | thanks a ton guys!!! |
| 05:16.58 | Maquis | :) |
| 05:17.01 | LeviHome | Any more questions? |
| 05:17.04 | LeviHome | This is fun. :) |
| 05:20.49 | Maquis | LeviHome: not right now... |
| 05:20.55 | Maquis | unless you want to do my project for me :) |
| 05:21.26 | LeviHome | That might be kind of fun, but definitely against the Honor Code. ;) |
| 05:22.25 | fishyfire | i have a project that needs to be done also |
| 05:23.43 | Maquis | LeviHome: ah... shucks! |
| 05:25.00 | Maquis | LeviHome: look at this... |
| 05:25.24 | Maquis | the two girls on the channel are sitting here offering you a great opportunity... and you're turning it down :-D |
| 05:26.16 | fishyfire | lol |
| 05:26.30 | LeviHome | Hey, I'm married. That gives me more than enough opportunities to do favors for a woman. ;) |
| 05:26.35 | Maquis | oh... |
| 05:26.42 | Maquis | yeah... i guess it does |
| 05:26.47 | fishyfire | well he claimed earlier to not be into java so that probably wouldn't work so well |
| 05:27.06 | Maquis | fishyfire: i'm not into java either... so, sorry |
| 05:27.10 | fishyfire | lol |
| 05:27.12 | LeviHome | I've done CS projects in Java when it was required, but that was a long time ago. |
| 05:27.30 | fishyfire | i'm unfortunately not into it as much as i need to be |
| 05:27.35 | fishyfire | but working on getting better |
| 05:28.22 | LeviHome | BTW, paste.lisp.org is better than pastebin. |
| 05:28.34 | LeviHome | It lets you select different language highlighting modes and such. |
| 05:28.39 | Maquis | ah... |
| 05:29.25 | LeviHome | No one's got it hooked up to the channel yet, so it doesn't do auto-notifications, but then neither does pastebin. |
| 05:31.06 | LeviHome | Gah, my parents have been on the phone for an hour. It's still busy. |
| 05:31.36 | LeviHome | Actually... it occurs to me that my dad could be on a trip, and they're talking to each other, since the cell went straight to voicemail. |
| 05:56.30 | *** join/#utah scott (scott@crackaddict.com) |
| 06:03.09 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~cougarcom@c-67-161-218-244.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 07:19.39 | *** join/#utah usynic (~synic@c-67-172-242-219.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 10:33.32 | *** join/#utah steel (~ash@220-244-56-158-sa.tpgi.com.au) |
| 10:33.40 | *** part/#utah steel (~ash@220-244-56-158-sa.tpgi.com.au) |
| 12:53.49 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 13:09.52 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 13:56.57 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf|w (~dataw0lf@66.219.227.114) |
| 14:15.47 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 14:19.23 | Uncle_Jesse | Good morning all |
| 14:20.13 | *** join/#utah PingWhat (~chatzilla@204.110.225.167) |
| 14:29.12 | Uncle_Jesse | ~ping PingWhat |
| 14:29.15 | ibot | pong PingWhat |
| 14:29.23 | Uncle_Jesse | lol |
| 14:33.32 | *** join/#utah wade (~wps@71.32.228.156) |
| 14:36.51 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Je1se (~Uncle_Jes@pool-68-238-20-160.rich.east.verizon.net) |
| 14:37.21 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@207.108.169.214) |
| 14:41.35 | Maquis | ~lart byu email for taking > 47 hours to deliver emails |
| 14:43.50 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-213.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 14:43.56 | vontrapp | ~lart synergy |
| 14:44.09 | brailsmt | a have decent lart, 'mortal wounds' would have been better... |
| 14:44.12 | vontrapp | everytime there's a version upgrade it's not compatable anymore |
| 14:44.17 | brailsmt | s/have/half |
| 14:44.18 | Uncle_Je1se | ~lart buzz words |
| 14:46.47 | Uncle_Jesse | I start to worry about my job when that happens |
| 14:49.26 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 14:50.04 | *** join/#utah WoodsDog (~woodsdog@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 14:55.08 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 14:57.05 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 15:01.09 | *** join/#utah joshc (~joshc@jcoates.org) |
| 15:13.23 | *** part/#utah joshc (~joshc@jcoates.org) |
| 15:14.52 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:17.47 | Bradipo | Anyone know of a tool that will traverse the DNS tree for a given name and show the number of different delegations and redirections (i.e. a.com uses ns.b.com, but b.com uses ns.c.com) |
| 15:18.26 | Bradipo | And it would be nice if it shows loops in the tree too. |
| 15:19.31 | hans | Bradipo: I don't. sounds cool though |
| 15:19.38 | spr | ~lart spr |
| 15:19.40 | Bradipo | Yeah, I think it would be a cool tool. |
| 15:21.21 | sjansen | Does that help? ;-) |
| 15:23.00 | spr | hm.. Mac OS X Tiger comes out the same day as Hitchhikers.. |
| 15:23.28 | vontrapp | is computerworld any good? |
| 15:23.44 | sjansen | is that the sequel to waterworld? |
| 15:23.51 | vontrapp | magazine |
| 15:23.57 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~JoshH@firebat.aros.net) |
| 15:24.45 | sjansen | strange format for a sequel |
| 15:26.56 | hans | at this moment, there is an iBook on a truck or a plane from Sacramento |
| 15:27.13 | levi | hans: You ordered an iBook? |
| 15:27.57 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-67-161-242-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:27.58 | levi | This was an interesting interview with MJD: http://www.theperlreview.com/Interviews/mjd-hop-20050407.html?up |
| 15:28.08 | sjansen | Have we learned nothing from BK? |
| 15:28.35 | levi | sjansen: Go play with your GNU stuff. |
| 15:28.41 | hans | sjansen: what in particular ist here to learn about hardware I can run linux on |
| 15:28.54 | hans | except for the broadcomm chip in the airport extreme? |
| 15:30.13 | hans | (but what's new there? A certain HP laptop has that problem IIRC) |
| 15:30.50 | hans | hehe. you might be right |
| 15:31.09 | levi | You can always run Linux as the primary OS and use OS X through MOL. |
| 15:31.26 | hans | i bet I'll last longer than I would in windows though |
| 15:31.32 | vontrapp | :) |
| 15:31.53 | hans | "there's a fine line between marketing and hating" |
| 15:31.55 | lukfugl | yeah. There are some things I really like about OSX, and other things I don't like so much. So far I've lived with the nitpicks, but I know Hans would have a lower tolerance for that :) |
| 15:32.13 | levi | I have no problem living with OS X. In fact, I rather like it. |
| 15:32.23 | lukfugl | things like no focus-follows-mouse (still looking for a patch for that) |
| 15:32.28 | vontrapp | it's the terminal, the terminal will get you |
| 15:32.34 | hans | I don't know, though, vontrapp. that exposé thing looks very much like the sort of thing that would work very well for me. |
| 15:32.37 | Uncle_Jesse | I will use linux mainly when they come up with a solution for airport |
| 15:32.42 | vontrapp | you'll be pulling your hair out screaming for xterm |
| 15:32.46 | hans | vontrapp: what's wrong with an xterm? |
| 15:32.54 | hans | can't you get xterm? |
| 15:32.58 | vontrapp | nothing, you'll want xterm |
| 15:33.01 | levi | I got a focus-follows-mouse patch for OS X, and it actually doesn't work very well with the Mac way at all. |
| 15:33.02 | vontrapp | perhaps you can |
| 15:33.04 | lukfugl | vontrapp: what about the terminal? the only problem I've had with it is that the launcher brings up the current instance ratheer than creating a new one |
| 15:33.06 | vontrapp | with installing x and all |
| 15:33.15 | vontrapp | easier just to install linux, IMHO |
| 15:33.19 | levi | It comes with xterm when you install Apple's X11. |
| 15:33.25 | levi | vontrapp: Installing X11 is trivial. |
| 15:33.30 | levi | And it starts xterm when you start it. |
| 15:33.49 | levi | The trouble with focus-follows-mouse is that the menu bar is at the top of the screen. |
| 15:34.04 | vontrapp | ah, that does make it difficult |
| 15:34.05 | levi | You end up mousing over some other window on the way to the menubar, and then it's wrong. |
| 15:34.14 | lukfugl | levi: agreed. However, I'm not too happy with how "separate" X11 feels from the rest of the OS |
| 15:34.16 | hans | levi: the problem with that argument is bringing the menu bar into things :) |
| 15:34.32 | vontrapp | :) |
| 15:34.42 | vontrapp | ~lart menu bars |
| 15:34.45 | lukfugl | one, look and feel isn't native. But I can live with that |
| 15:35.07 | lukfugl | however, worse is that to start a new X11 application, I need to do it through the X11 app |
| 15:35.14 | levi | The xterm doesn't feel very different. I sometimes forget which are xterms and which are Terminals. |
| 15:35.18 | lukfugl | so, for instance, I can't use quicksilver (which I love) |
| 15:35.18 | hans | I have to feel sorry for minam though. looking for a gvim replacement because it doesn't feel like a first-class citizen in osx |
| 15:35.44 | sjansen | Cats living with dogs! Mass hysteria! Children skipping school! |
| 15:35.46 | lukfugl | hans: I got a OSX gvim (native, not through X11) and it works fine for me |
| 15:35.47 | hans | can't make a shortcut or something? |
| 15:35.55 | vontrapp | nobody has had an issue with how mac's terminal doesn't do home/end? |
| 15:36.03 | vontrapp | i HATE that |
| 15:36.03 | lukfugl | vontrapp: that can be fixed |
| 15:36.07 | hans | lukfugl: yeah, I'm not sure what could possibly go wrong with gvim in osx |
| 15:36.23 | hans | maybe minam relies on those derned menu bars |
| 15:36.23 | lukfugl | I haven't done it yet (lazy) but I know there's a fix out there |
| 15:36.30 | lukfugl | heh |
| 15:36.48 | Jayce^ | hans, make the gvim a shortcut, it works |
| 15:37.04 | hans | seriously though, the only gui decorations I use with gvim are the window manager close button |
| 15:37.12 | levi | There's a native gvim and a native emacs, so there's no cause for complaint. |
| 15:37.13 | hans | everything else is turned off. |
| 15:37.15 | vontrapp | same here |
| 15:37.23 | lukfugl | hans: ditto |
| 15:37.25 | Jayce^ | that's an option in the osx native version |
| 15:37.27 | lukfugl | and minimize |
| 15:37.53 | Jayce^ | I just want a native kmail :) |
| 15:37.54 | vontrapp | and you can use those buttons with vim in a terminal :) it's all about the pretty colors and fonts |
| 15:38.04 | lukfugl | but in OSX you don't need a minimize button, just double click the titlebar |
| 15:38.08 | sjansen | Oh I'll keep quiet, but when the water gets to my upper lip, somebody's going to hear about it! |
| 15:38.31 | lukfugl | (that disappointed me at first when I wanted shading, but with the nifty snapshot minimize and expose I find I need shading less and less) |
| 15:38.40 | hans | Jayce^: it's on option in my .gvimrc too |
| 15:39.28 | brailsmt | umbrello has issues... |
| 15:39.39 | hans | brailsmt: but it's rapidly improving |
| 15:39.41 | brailsmt | i like the ui, but it crashes...a lot |
| 15:39.43 | Uncle_Jesse | umbrello? |
| 15:39.48 | Jayce^ | levi, hadn't seen that interview, cool.. |
| 15:39.57 | brailsmt | espeically for sequence diagrams |
| 15:40.00 | Jayce^ | levi, careful, you'll have more interest in perl :-p |
| 15:40.10 | lukfugl | uml tool |
| 15:40.13 | hans | i'm willing to try things the mac way for a bit. heck, I did it with gnome after all. |
| 15:40.24 | levi | Jayce^: You have a problem with me being more interested in perl? ;) |
| 15:40.49 | brailsmt | what article is this? |
| 15:40.51 | hans | but I'm betting the focus-mouse will need to be hacked, and major keyboard acceleration. only time will tell |
| 15:40.55 | brailsmt | err, interview |
| 15:41.58 | Jayce^ | levi, oh yeah, gotta keep you away :) |
| 15:41.58 | levi | This was an interesting interview with MJD: http://www.theperlreview.com/Interviews/mjd-hop-20050407.html?up |
| 15:41.58 | brailsmt | hans: on debian how do i see what version i have installed versus the latset available? |
| 15:42.04 | Jayce^ | That book should be arriving at my house this week hopefully |
| 15:42.16 | levi | Jayce^: Higher Order Perl? |
| 15:42.18 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 15:42.20 | hans | dpkg --status pkgname |
| 15:43.19 | levi | Jayce^: Well, my Practical Common Lisp book should be arriving this week. :) |
| 15:43.27 | Uncle_Jesse | mmmm...topsoil |
| 15:43.28 | Jayce^ | cool |
| 15:44.00 | Jayce^ | MJD: Everything Autrijus says and does astonishes me. <--- amen to that |
| 15:44.35 | brailsmt | "Sometimes I wish Perl's syntax were less verbose." <-- scary |
| 15:44.59 | vontrapp | that is scary |
| 15:45.08 | Jayce^ | you should see his regex presentation :) |
| 15:45.19 | hans | brailsmt: that makes sense actually |
| 15:45.29 | hans | I think he might be referring to all the line noise |
| 15:45.39 | Jayce^ | exactly |
| 15:45.40 | hans | just a wild guess though |
| 15:45.51 | Jayce^ | that's been a soapbox of his for a while |
| 15:46.05 | hans | you know, things like required braces, semicolons, $@%&, whatnot |
| 15:46.51 | Jayce^ | hey, back off the sigils man :) |
| 15:47.11 | brailsmt | i cannot stand sigils, and i seriously dislike the idea of default variables... |
| 15:47.26 | levi | He seems to like sigils, judging from his use of stylized sigils on his site. |
| 15:47.34 | Jayce^ | TPR: Did you design Higher Order Perl as a possible textbook? |
| 15:47.34 | Jayce^ | MJD: No, just the opposite. I was terrified that people would see it as an impractical academic treatise with no relevance to professional programmers. I tried hard to rid it of any academic aroma. So, for example, there are no exercises at the end of the chapters. |
| 15:47.36 | brailsmt | ruby has them, and i wish it didn't, at least rubyists don't use them |
| 15:47.50 | Jayce^ | brailsmt, I'm the exact opposite, I adore them (sigils) |
| 15:48.19 | brailsmt | for asnything but the simplest case they should be avoided... |
| 15:48.46 | Jayce^ | ugh |
| 15:49.40 | levi | They remind me of BASIC. ;) |
| 15:49.55 | brailsmt | with a decent editor, there is very little time savings with using the, and in the long run descriptive variable names are faster and easier to maintin... |
| 15:50.08 | brailsmt | s/the,/them |
| 15:50.49 | hans | speaking of doc. acm queue claims comments are more important thatn code |
| 15:51.17 | vontrapp | i think descriptive, readable code is important |
| 15:51.18 | brailsmt | hans: you have a link? or is it print only? |
| 15:51.21 | hans | I agree comments are important, but it all comes down to the pov. to the computer, I don't think that is true. and if the cmoputer doesn't matter then there's no point in programming. |
| 15:51.27 | hans | http://acmqueue.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=290 |
| 15:51.42 | hans | but I'm being facetious. :) |
| 15:52.46 | Uncle_Jesse | you're being fictitious? |
| 15:53.06 | hans | ~spell facetious |
| 15:53.13 | hans | ~dict facetious |
| 15:53.28 | levi | hans: You should have seen the evil thing that Maquis' professor dreamed up as part of some FAT code. |
| 15:53.37 | hans | what was that? |
| 15:53.46 | hans | that sounds fun |
| 15:54.13 | levi | hans: Apparently there's something in FAT that's a string that has nulls at all the even positions in the string, and you need to copy the non-nulls out. |
| 15:55.41 | levi | hans: So, he had a line thus: while(fileName[i++/2] = a[i++]); |
| 15:55.42 | levi | hans: And the whole class was trying to figure out why it didn't work for some people... |
| 15:55.42 | lukfugl | heh |
| 15:55.42 | hans | let me guess, differences in when the postfix increment happened |
| 15:55.45 | brailsmt | you nailed it |
| 15:56.03 | sjansen | code is vastly more important than comments |
| 15:56.20 | hans | was this a purposefully tricky thing, or did he just succumb to bad coding? |
| 15:56.20 | sjansen | (and not just because a comment has never accomplished anything by itself) |
| 15:56.21 | levi | hans: Worse: referencing a variable in the same expression you use an increment operator is Undefined in C. |
| 15:56.29 | levi | hans: He thought it was elegant, apparently. |
| 15:56.37 | sjansen | only corner cases and tricky code should be commented |
| 15:56.50 | sjansen | otherwise, the code should be clean enough to speak for itself |
| 15:57.10 | vontrapp | sjansen: agreed |
| 15:57.17 | sjansen | unless of course, we're talking about embedded documentation to automatically generate an API doc |
| 15:57.19 | brailsmt | for(int i = 0, j = 1; fileName[i] = s[j]; i++, j += 2); <-- same thing, more readable, and still a one liner, since he thinks that one-liners are elegant |
| 15:57.36 | brailsmt | sjansen: i hope you are joking |
| 15:57.52 | levi | sjansen: Did you read the article? |
| 15:58.13 | sjansen | about to |
| 15:58.37 | sjansen | brailsmt: I am not. |
| 15:58.46 | lukfugl | I agree with sjanse except I change "should be" to "need to be" |
| 15:58.54 | levi | He says automatic documentation generation is good, but not sufficient. |
| 15:59.08 | levi | But he also disagrees with documenting stuff that's obvious from the code. |
| 15:59.13 | lukfugl | code should be clear enough that only edge cases, etc. *need* comments, but more liberal commenting is good none-the-less |
| 15:59.18 | brailsmt | i think code should be copiously commented |
| 15:59.49 | sjansen | comments get in the way of understanding code |
| 15:59.52 | brailsmt | and my code is, which makes it easier to understand and maintain/fix |
| 15:59.58 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 16:00.02 | lukfugl | although I do still agree it is possible (and easy) to go overboard on commenting |
| 16:00.03 | sjansen | especially when there's drift between what the code does and the comment claims |
| 16:00.40 | levi | sjansen: Drift between comment and code is laziness. |
| 16:00.48 | brailsmt | and a bug |
| 16:01.25 | sjansen | brailsmt: so you agree with me? |
| 16:01.28 | levi | I generally agree with Raskin's article. |
| 16:01.36 | sjansen | good practices should discourage bugs |
| 16:01.59 | levi | sjansen: Have you read the part about what he considers good comments to be? |
| 16:02.01 | sjansen | lying comments are a bug, so why run the risk by duplicating information? |
| 16:02.05 | levi | brailsmt: How about you? |
| 16:02.15 | levi | sjansen: The point is that the comments /shouldn't/ duplicate information. |
| 16:02.37 | sjansen | levi: I'm getting there, but somebody keeps interrupting me. ;-) |
| 16:02.43 | levi | sjansen: They should include background info, like the reasons for choosing an algorithm, etc. |
| 16:02.49 | brailsmt | no, i agree that a drift between comments and what code does is a bug, not that you don't need comments except for in corner cases and tricky code |
| 16:03.30 | brailsmt | though, those are cases when comments are called for... |
| 16:04.46 | sjansen | levi: perhaps I shouldn't have used the phrase corner case, better would have been "information that can't be represented in the code with a little refactoring" |
| 16:05.44 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~cougarcom@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 16:07.05 | brailsmt | i think comments should document design decisions, they should also be used to delineate code 'paragraphs' and to give a one-line explanation of what the paragraph is for |
| 16:07.06 | levi | Heh, I'm still getting email forwarded to me from my cs.byu.edu account. |
| 16:07.38 | levi | I often do the document-first programming thing. |
| 16:07.50 | lukfugl | for me, comments are the psuedo-code distillation of the real code + design explanations |
| 16:08.01 | brailsmt | if the code does not do what the documentation says it should, then the code needs to be fixed... |
| 16:08.27 | levi | I'll map out data structures, decide what the interface functions will be, then describe how they should work. |
| 16:08.40 | levi | After that all makes sense, I start filling in the code. |
| 16:08.44 | hans | docs should be higher-level than code. code should be readable. they should be in sync. end of story |
| 16:08.58 | lukfugl | hans: amen |
| 16:09.03 | levi | Indeed. On to more interesting things. :) |
| 16:09.27 | brailsmt | exactly what hans said |
| 16:10.14 | vontrapp | comments describe what, code describes how |
| 16:10.44 | sjansen | docs should be in an obscure language only I speak, provide only vague hints or outright lie, and design is for wimps and commies |
| 16:11.20 | vontrapp | and when code sufficiently describes what, then no comment is needed |
| 16:11.28 | vontrapp | i.e. |
| 16:11.34 | vontrapp | # create a list of apples |
| 16:11.40 | vontrapp | apples = Array.new |
| 16:11.46 | levi | Hey, I thought we were moving on. |
| 16:11.54 | lukfugl | ~lart vontrapp |
| 16:13.00 | vontrapp | dang, got gravel in my lungs |
| 16:13.57 | vontrapp | lukfugl: if it was me, please /msg |
| 16:14.18 | lukfugl | vontrapp: sentence from the article |
| 16:14.23 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@thelances.net) |
| 16:15.02 | brailsmt | " Do not believe any programmer, manager, or salesperson who claims that code can be self-documenting or automatically documented. It ain\u2019t so." |
| 16:15.10 | brailsmt | thats for sjansen |
| 16:15.15 | brailsmt | dangit... i had moved on... |
| 16:16.35 | levi | Has anyone looked at the Dylan language? |
| 16:16.47 | hans | no, but I've seen the bob language |
| 16:16.54 | levi | I wish Apple would pick that up again. |
| 16:17.24 | Bradipo | brailsmt: It can be with CWEB http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/cweb.html |
| 16:17.28 | Bradipo | :-) |
| 16:19.09 | levi | They had a lot of interesting ideas in their IDE, and the language semantics were almost identical to CLOS. It doesn't look like the surviving Dylan implementations do the cool stuff the Apple's IDE did. |
| 16:22.07 | *** join/#utah synic|w (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 16:23.41 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-67-161-242-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:25.11 | hans | so, let's say you want to do some macros in a configuration file. what would you use? m4? c preprocessor |
| 16:25.43 | hans | something else? |
| 16:25.45 | brailsmt | hans: ruby |
| 16:25.50 | brailsmt | eruby to be exact |
| 16:27.00 | brailsmt | how do i update a given package on debian? |
| 16:27.09 | levi | hans: What sort of macros? |
| 16:27.14 | lukfugl | hans: describe more about your intended macros |
| 16:27.28 | hans | expand something short to something long |
| 16:27.37 | hans | so I only have to write something short over and over |
| 16:28.03 | hans | and something long only once. |
| 16:28.34 | brailsmt | if it is simple strings, than C preprocessor |
| 16:28.56 | hans | multiline stuff |
| 16:29.00 | brailsmt | anything more comlex and i recommend erby |
| 16:29.05 | brailsmt | eruby |
| 16:33.01 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@207.108.169.214) |
| 16:44.15 | hans | `' is so dumb |
| 16:44.48 | levi | From m4? |
| 16:44.59 | hans | since when is left single quote, apostrophe any better than apostrophe, apostrophe |
| 16:45.02 | hans | m4 is one place, yes |
| 16:45.08 | hans | all GNU web pages is anothe rplace |
| 16:45.26 | levi | Just now, I briefly looked at the m4 manual and saw that, and then stopped looking at m4. :) |
| 16:45.34 | hans | if there were a right single quote character on our keyboards, that might be understandable. |
| 16:45.59 | hans | it's a gnu thing. all info manuals have it IRIC |
| 16:46.03 | levi | Hmm. |
| 16:46.06 | hans | that's yoda for IIRC |
| 16:46.17 | hans | but yes, it is m4 syntax as well. m4 is a gnu thing |
| 16:46.26 | levi | Is the backtick even really a left single quote? |
| 16:46.28 | hans | well, no, m4 is a unix thing |
| 16:46.40 | hans | I can't be sure about that either. |
| 16:46.56 | levi | I don't think it is. |
| 16:47.55 | hans | guess I lied. the gnuplot info page uses '' |
| 16:48.06 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 16:48.11 | vontrapp | they don't look matching, that's for suer |
| 16:48.16 | levi | Well, the character it's mapped to is usually used as one, but I wonder if it was originally intended to be so on typewriters. |
| 16:49.20 | hans | for that matter, where did ^ come from? where was that used in regular pre-typewriter writing? |
| 16:49.24 | vontrapp | typewriters!? Typewriters? We don't need no steenkin typewriters! |
| 16:49.30 | brailsmt | wow, they just changed something in the matrix... |
| 16:49.47 | sjansen | no, the backtick if anything is a crase |
| 16:49.58 | vontrapp | s/crase/craze/ |
| 16:50.00 | hans | crase? |
| 16:50.48 | sjansen | accent mark, give me a moment |
| 16:51.10 | sjansen | Ã <-- that |
| 16:52.07 | vontrapp | i can easily type cambodian now :) if only it was readable |
| 16:52.23 | vontrapp | *sigh* |
| 16:52.27 | sjansen | and don't ever get a typographer started about ' and " |
| 16:52.53 | vontrapp | sjansen: are you a typographer? can we start you about ' and "? |
| 16:53.13 | sjansen | Thankfully, I'm not. But they are right. ' and " are ugly. |
| 16:53.54 | vontrapp | what to use instead? “ and ” ? |
| 16:55.49 | levi | I figured that, since it was on the same key as the tilde, it was originally intended to be an accent mark. |
| 16:55.55 | sjansen | unicode |
| 16:56.18 | vontrapp | levi: that's what it looks like, too |
| 16:56.28 | sjansen | semantically, I also agree with them about ..., although visually I see little point |
| 16:56.32 | levi | I haven't been able to find substantial documentation of the original purposes of different keys, though. |
| 16:57.08 | sjansen | and when you start using em dashes, en dashes, and hypens correctly it does make your document more attractive |
| 16:57.24 | vontrapp | that is good stuff |
| 16:57.36 | sjansen | the - is another character you really don't want to bring up with typography fanatics |
| 17:00.31 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@128.187.200.5) |
| 17:10.32 | hans | levi: I do think you're right. which makes my point even more - what's better about crase,apostrophe than apostrophe apostrophe? at least the two ' is readable in all fonts. |
| 17:10.43 | levi | ^ is a diacritical called the circumflex. |
| 17:11.03 | hans | yeah, now I remember that typewriters could hit backspace without deleting :) |
| 17:11.35 | hans | so sjansen when is en dash appropriate? or give us the skinny on all three types |
| 17:11.41 | sjansen | hans: don't call it apostrophy, you'll make the typographers mad and they'll invade #utah detracting from our language wars |
| 17:13.16 | hans | what's wrong with calling an apostrophe an apostrophe? |
| 17:13.19 | sjansen | http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/091502.htm |
| 17:13.57 | levi | So, ` is a grave accent... where's the acute accent? Were they supposed to use the apostrophe/single quote key for that? |
| 17:15.00 | sjansen | yeah, grave accent, that's the name in english |
| 17:16.32 | sjansen | ’ <-- that's an apostrophe |
| 17:16.55 | hans | ’' |
| 17:17.34 | hans | sjansen: so what is ' to a typographer. it's definitely not a right single quote |
| 17:17.42 | sjansen | ugly |
| 17:17.43 | hans | so what was it on the original keyboard? |
| 17:17.44 | vontrapp | doesn�@Yt look like an apostrophe |
| 17:18.04 | sjansen | vontrapp: then one of use is using the wrong encoding |
| 17:18.19 | sjansen | I'm pretty sure I'm using utf8, so it must be your fault. :-P |
| 17:18.37 | sjansen | Looks like, as usual, wikipedia has the best article on dashes. |
| 17:19.38 | hans | I'm still waiting. was ' an acute accent on the original keyboard? did they not have apostrophes back then? |
| 17:19.57 | sjansen | the apostrophe article is also chock full of info, but it's layout would probably make a typography bigot cry |
| 17:20.33 | levi | hans: According to wikipedia, the things on the typewriter were 'straight quotes' invented purely to decrease the number of keys. |
| 17:21.16 | levi | My font doesn't support all those characters. :/ |
| 17:21.18 | hans | I'm happy with that. so '' is the correct usage. |
| 17:21.53 | sjansen | hans: unless you're a typography bigot or microsoft victim |
| 17:21.57 | hans | typewriters were never meant to be quality typesetting devices, I don't know why people think ASCII should be. |
| 17:22.02 | levi | hans: Yes, they are semantically correct, but typographers will get mad if you use them when the real open and close quotes are available. |
| 17:22.26 | hans | levi: hence my point. available they are not in plain ascii text. |
| 17:22.33 | levi | Right. |
| 17:22.39 | sjansen | or on my keyboard |
| 17:22.44 | hans | so m4 and gnu psuedo-typographer bigots are wacky. |
| 17:22.52 | hans | which was my original point. :) |
| 17:22.53 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 17:22.55 | levi | But on the web, for example, they are available. |
| 17:22.57 | lukfugl | ~lart esd |
| 17:23.04 | hans | right. I agree there. |
| 17:23.18 | sjansen | and don't even think of mentioning monstrously annoying software that changes my ' into ’ whether I want it or not |
| 17:23.27 | hans | which is another argument against GNU's webpages, which use ` and ' straight up. |
| 17:24.18 | hans | oh, and don't get me going on man pages that use the unicode hyphen because the ascii hyphen obviously wasn't good enough. (true, it's groff's fault) |
| 17:24.34 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:24.48 | lukfugl | ~lart gnome |
| 17:24.49 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:25.34 | vontrapp | ' this is what U+0027 looks like for me |
| 17:26.46 | vontrapp | ’ and U+2019 which is right single quote |
| 17:27.06 | vontrapp | looks like sjansens box-at-Y once in irssi |
| 17:27.37 | vontrapp | i think it's screen's fault |
| 17:28.57 | levi | vontrapp: How about the left single quote, as compared with a 'backtick'? |
| 17:30.14 | vontrapp | ‘ ` |
| 17:31.22 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@thelances.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 17:32.01 | *** join/#utah vontrapp_ (~von@user-213.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 17:32.05 | levi | That's a right single quote. |
| 17:32.33 | vontrapp_ | ‘ that's a right quote? |
| 17:32.48 | vontrapp_ | yep, it's screen's fault, irssi not in screen does just fine |
| 17:33.17 | sjansen | heh |
| 17:33.39 | sjansen | screen supposed to make encoding problems less frequent |
| 17:33.46 | hans | fwiw I use irssi in screen in utf-8 no problems. |
| 17:34.43 | vontrapp_ | so what might be breaking it for me? |
| 17:35.01 | hans | maybe your locale? maybe irssi settings? |
| 17:36.02 | sjansen | dpkg-reconfigure locales |
| 17:36.26 | vontrapp_ | hmm, i guess it's because i start the screen from a script without ever opening a terminal |
| 17:36.47 | vontrapp_ | well, a terminal is opened, but .bashrc isn't sourced |
| 17:37.33 | levi | Anyway, I agree that using `' for quotes is a horrible abuse of ASCII, and tools that do that (especially when they output to the web) need to be fixed. |
| 17:38.00 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-213.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 17:39.12 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-213.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 17:40.11 | Uncle_Jesse | http://www.americawestandasone.com/video.html |
| 17:40.24 | Uncle_Jesse | For you patriotic folk :-) |
| 17:40.47 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:41.06 | hans | that had better not be something that would be forwarded around |
| 17:42.07 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~Scott@byu080767wks.byu.edu) |
| 17:42.17 | jakea | hans: So we're starting again this Friday |
| 17:42.26 | hans | awesome |
| 17:42.33 | hans | I'm looking forward to mirror darkly |
| 17:43.01 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: not unless you forward it :-) |
| 17:43.01 | levi | Mirror darkly? |
| 17:43.18 | *** mode/#utah [+o hans] by ChanServ |
| 17:43.28 | *** kick/#utah [Uncle_Jesse!fugalh@falcon.fugal.net] by hans (patriotic spam) |
| 17:43.42 | *** join/#utah Uncle_Jesse (~Uncle_Jes@pool-68-238-20-160.rich.east.verizon.net) |
| 17:43.48 | Uncle_Jesse | hey - that was unpatriotic |
| 17:43.55 | hans | levi: it's the name of an upcoming episode. or part of the name anyway |
| 17:43.57 | lukfugl | jakea: starting what this Friday? |
| 17:44.05 | hans | Uncle_Jesse: that was worse than something that would be forwarded around by my aunts |
| 17:44.16 | hans | enterprise |
| 17:44.18 | Uncle_Jesse | lol |
| 17:44.21 | levi | hans: Episode of...? |
| 17:44.34 | Uncle_Jesse | I wouldn't forward anything better |
| 17:44.53 | levi | I thought you might be referring to A Scanner Darkly, which is a PKD novel that's being made into a movie. |
| 17:45.13 | hans | is it a movie about a scanner in need of repairs? |
| 17:45.19 | hans | or perhaps windex |
| 17:45.43 | levi | No, it's more about drug use and law enforcement. |
| 17:46.24 | levi | An undercover cop on the drug beat starts using this drug that splits his mind into two personas. |
| 17:47.37 | levi | Interesting book. The movie is going to be all rotoscoped, though, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. |
| 17:47.56 | hans | rotoscope? |
| 17:48.28 | levi | Yeah, it's filmed with live actors, but made to look animated via camera or computer techniques or something. |
| 17:48.32 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-213.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 17:49.02 | levi | http://www.apple.com/trailers/warner_independent_pictures/a_scanner_darkly.html |
| 17:50.51 | levi | Hmm. After watching the preview, it may not turn out too bad. |
| 17:54.03 | hans | looks a little jumpy to me |
| 17:54.29 | hans | like the lips don't match up. maybe it's a technical problem on the preview |
| 17:55.16 | sjansen | or your computer |
| 17:55.27 | jakea | lukfugl: Enterprise! |
| 17:55.30 | hans | well that's what I meant. network or computer or something |
| 17:55.31 | sjansen | most likely esd |
| 17:55.35 | sjansen | ~lart esd |
| 17:55.56 | hans | sjansen: you surely are not implicating that I am using esd. |
| 17:55.58 | levi | hans: It wasn't jumpy for me. |
| 17:56.03 | hans | if you are, you don't know me well enough. |
| 17:56.19 | sjansen | yeah, you're right, didn't stop to think |
| 17:56.23 | hans | levi: it didn't look jumpy per se, it just seemed not quite right. the sound was smooth, and the images seemed to be smooth |
| 17:56.54 | hans | especially when the doctor was talking |
| 17:56.55 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:57.08 | hans | amen |
| 17:57.16 | sjansen | but at least I got to drag out the quote |
| 17:57.24 | hans | that's worth something |
| 17:57.55 | sjansen | I've also long since removed esd from my system. Of course you hav too, you crazy audiophile you. |
| 17:58.27 | sjansen | pssst, hans, could I interest you in a book on typography }:-) |
| 17:59.16 | hans | :) no, thanks. I have other things to worry about. :) I do think the phenomenon of typography adapting to real life keyboard usage is interesting though |
| 17:59.43 | hans | like the space hyphen space standing in for e[nm] dash |
| 18:00.40 | sjansen | there's also--and we must not forget it--the double dash |
| 18:00.40 | hans | what kind of a name is wpa_supplicant? |
| 18:01.23 | sjansen | I don't know, but it captures the beggar status of wireless networking in Linux nicely. |
| 18:01.29 | hans | the problem with the double hyphen and the space hyphen space both is that you don't have enough granularity to represent en dash, so it folds into hyphen. |
| 18:01.37 | hans | which isn't really a big problem after all |
| 18:07.45 | levi | I wish they'd let Terry Gilliam do A Scanner Darkly. We need more Terry Gilliam films. |
| 18:10.41 | hans | levi: it would appear you can leve out quotes altogether. |
| 18:27.49 | hans | ok, so what kind of technology does maps.google.com use? |
| 18:28.00 | hans | javascript right? not flash or something? |
| 18:29.59 | Uncle_Jesse | ajax |
| 18:30.01 | hans | ah ha. javascript settings |
| 18:30.41 | sjansen | javascript + dom + css + proprietary browser extensions |
| 18:30.47 | dataw0lf|w | http://jgwebber.blogspot.com/2005/02/mapping-google.html |
| 18:30.48 | sjansen | aka, ajax |
| 18:30.48 | Uncle_Jesse | http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php |
| 18:31.00 | Uncle_Jesse | I like the author's name |
| 18:31.35 | shadoi | sjansen: proprietary? |
| 18:31.35 | Uncle_Jesse | it would be faster to develop and lighter on the server with a macromedia solution |
| 18:31.56 | Uncle_Jesse | aka flex |
| 18:32.02 | sjansen | okay, non-standard, sorry |
| 18:32.57 | Uncle_Jesse | I'm becoming brainwashed by the Macromedia developers all around me lately |
| 18:33.09 | Uncle_Jesse | I even have a pocketknife that has their logo on it |
| 18:33.25 | dataw0lf|w | is it broken? |
| 18:33.34 | shadoi | Uncle_Jesse: for some reason flash is considered evil these days. |
| 18:33.39 | Uncle_Jesse | actually, it's sharper than my swiss army straight from switzerland |
| 18:33.51 | Uncle_Jesse | shadoi: I don't get that other than it's proprietary |
| 18:33.51 | hans | dataw0lf|w: it was for me until I checked the javascript can change images box in my firefox settings |
| 18:34.08 | dataw0lf|w | hans; I was talking about the knife. |
| 18:34.22 | shadoi | Uncle_Jesse: the major coup that google scored is a very rich app with no extensions or outside requirements. |
| 18:34.26 | shadoi | works everywhere. |
| 18:34.30 | Uncle_Jesse | More people have flash enabled than javascript, according to Macromedia |
| 18:34.36 | sjansen | shadoi: it has alot to do with flash not working on amd64 linux, ppc linux, etc. |
| 18:35.02 | sjansen | Macromedia is up in the night. |
| 18:35.02 | Uncle_Jesse | flash works on linux, at least it has on every linux machine I've used |
| 18:35.03 | shadoi | sjansen: bah, that's a minutia in the webdev world... |
| 18:35.24 | sjansen | Properly designed ajax frameworks can fall back to pure html, working with even limited cell phones. |
| 18:35.26 | Uncle_Jesse | works on my ppc linux machine too |
| 18:35.36 | hans | Uncle_Jesse: you're joking right? |
| 18:35.44 | shadoi | Uncle_Jesse: it's not that it doesn't work. It's that it's not there by default. |
| 18:35.52 | sjansen | Now ask me how many well designed ajax implemenations I expect. ;-) |
| 18:35.53 | Uncle_Jesse | shadoi: that's true |
| 18:36.13 | shadoi | sjansen: exactly |
| 18:36.17 | hans | sjansen: let me guess. 0 |
| 18:36.25 | shadoi | google can throw 30 or 40 PhD's at a project. |
| 18:36.40 | sjansen | hans: no, of course not, I put the figure closer to 3 |
| 18:36.41 | Uncle_Jesse | however, not much does come preinstalled with linux out of the box - people are used to installing things after their initial install of the OS |
| 18:37.04 | hans | Uncle_Jesse, our new flash posterboy |
| 18:37.10 | sjansen | with two of them being so obscure they won't be discovered until archeology recognizes google as a field of research |
| 18:37.10 | dataw0lf|w | It's not hard to install Flash, but who wants to? |
| 18:37.15 | shadoi | Uncle_Jesse: I think you're confusing "people" with "people like us". |
| 18:37.17 | dataw0lf|w | doesn't work in links anyways. |
| 18:37.28 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: nah - I have just been impressed lately by some of the stats I've heard about flash vs javascript |
| 18:37.40 | synic|w | are there some kind of weird perl permissions issues on debian? i have a script that can't write to a directory that's not owned by the current user, even if the permissions say the user can |
| 18:37.49 | hans | from the stats you've shared, I gather you've been taken. |
| 18:37.51 | Uncle_Jesse | shadoi: I agree |
| 18:37.53 | mrpull | the brainwashing really did sink in eh? |
| 18:38.20 | Uncle_Jesse | mrpull: it's starting to |
| 18:38.29 | synic|w | nor can it see files using readdir if they aren't own by the user, even if permissions are all set to allow everyone read permission |
| 18:38.29 | hans | simple math and psychology. javascript is enabled by default, users as a whole don't change defaults, flash is not installed by default. |
| 18:38.30 | sjansen | synic|w: So the directory is ????w???? or ???????w? |
| 18:38.30 | Uncle_Jesse | I'm not expert enough to be a posterboy though |
| 18:38.39 | Uncle_Jesse | nor give a good argument, but I do like arguing |
| 18:38.40 | mrpull | what ever happened the the free alternative to flash? SVG? |
| 18:38.42 | dataw0lf|w | javascript and flash are both used too much. |
| 18:38.44 | mrpull | or something like that? |
| 18:38.44 | synic|w | sjansen: right now it's 777, just for testing. |
| 18:38.54 | hans | mrpull: it's still there, and advancing slowly |
| 18:39.07 | hans | the mozilla/adobe fiasco really slowed it down |
| 18:39.20 | Uncle_Jesse | dataw0lf|w: I'll agree to that |
| 18:39.25 | sjansen | svg + javascript is still on the horizon |
| 18:39.32 | sjansen | far into the horizon |
| 18:39.32 | hans | both mozilla and adobe would like to ignore that, because it came down to an ego war, but that's the facts. |
| 18:39.43 | Uncle_Jesse | although you can really take a load off a server with either |
| 18:39.49 | sjansen | and it may be an illusion, almost appears to be receeding |
| 18:40.11 | hans | if you get into the svg community you will see some amazing things happening |
| 18:40.22 | hans | and svg is leaking out into things like kde/gnome |
| 18:40.30 | hans | but still nowhere near where it could have been |
| 18:40.44 | hans | and may yet be, if people are smarter in the future than they have been in the past. |
| 18:40.53 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 18:41.14 | sjansen | svg + xhtml 2.0 + ecmascript + css 3 will be a near nirvana |
| 18:41.39 | sjansen | if only we could attach electrodes and shock anyone that didn't upgrade to a browser that supports them |
| 18:41.49 | vontrapp | i almost thought that said 'emacs script' |
| 18:42.34 | hans | ecmascript is standardspeak for javascript |
| 18:43.01 | brailsmt | i read it as emacscript too... |
| 18:43.11 | hans | i guess it is worth pointing out that another factor of flash vs svg has been sound support |
| 18:43.25 | sjansen | whereas javascript is webdev speak for "that mess of roughly similar but not completely compatible implementations of ecmascript" |
| 18:43.26 | dataw0lf|w | Uncle_Jesse: Agreed, but is the pain of having to write JavaScript really worth it? |
| 18:43.36 | dataw0lf|w | My 8 ball says "Absolutely Not" |
| 18:43.43 | brailsmt | i would settle for IE support of CSS2 as near nirvana... |
| 18:43.55 | sjansen | Javascript is a great language. Took me a few years to realize that. |
| 18:43.55 | dataw0lf|w | brailsmt: agreed. |
| 18:43.57 | brailsmt | it would make my life a lot easier |
| 18:44.24 | sjansen | brailsmt: You and every other Web. dev, brother. |
| 18:44.26 | brailsmt | no more suckerfish hacks... |
| 18:44.26 | dataw0lf|w | I am only now beginning to reach Zen with my CSS-fu. |
| 18:44.44 | dataw0lf|w | but I don't really do web dev very often. |
| 18:45.07 | brailsmt | and IE pissed me off several times... |
| 18:45.36 | dataw0lf|w | you're telling me. At the very least they could implement a min height, jeez. |
| 18:45.53 | brailsmt | and then i really loved the news that IE7 will not support CSS2 since MS thinks it is a "broken standard"... |
| 18:46.11 | brailsmt | in other words, it isn't an MS "standard" |
| 18:46.48 | dataw0lf|w | didn't they say the same thing about TCP/IP? |
| 18:46.48 | brailsmt | at least you can get around IE crap with using the 'shild of' selector... |
| 18:47.10 | sjansen | wouldn't surprise me |
| 18:47.17 | brailsmt | Novell did... |
| 18:47.18 | brailsmt | :) |
| 18:47.32 | brailsmt | or something like it... |
| 18:47.50 | dataw0lf|w | yeah, MS said something along the lines of 'we don't plan to support TCP/IP' then stole BSD's stack code. |
| 18:48.04 | brailsmt | not stealing... |
| 18:48.16 | brailsmt | legally used it under the BSD license terms |
| 18:48.30 | *** join/#utah xbmodder-treo (~upirc@001-726-940.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 18:48.33 | brailsmt | which is why the GPL is good :) |
| 18:48.47 | xbmodder-treo | lol |
| 18:48.53 | dataw0lf|w | I meant stealing as in using it. |
| 18:48.54 | vontrapp | good point, it is a very good thing tcp/ip was used |
| 18:49.04 | dataw0lf|w | http://austinlug.org/archives/alg/2002-05/msg00606.html |
| 18:49.22 | brailsmt | ...as in using it... |
| 18:49.23 | brailsmt | :D |
| 18:49.44 | brailsmt | kidnapper |
| 18:50.02 | dataw0lf|w | apparently he's going to use you. |
| 18:50.11 | sjansen | even RMS has recognized that the bsd license is sometimes appropriate |
| 18:50.28 | xbmodder-treo | how come when brailsmt says it its funny when I say it its kidbap? |
| 18:50.44 | xbmodder-treo | I like gpl |
| 18:51.05 | xbmodder-treo | all my software has been gpl |
| 18:51.16 | brailsmt | xbmodder-treo: don't take it seriously |
| 18:51.35 | xbmodder-treo | I know! |
| 18:51.38 | shadoi | anyone know of a perl module for LM sensors? |
| 18:51.45 | xbmodder-treo | :-P |
| 18:56.26 | vontrapp | mmm, food |
| 18:56.35 | Uncle_Jesse | mmm, cookies |
| 18:59.29 | sjansen | ~lart ultra-slow servers |
| 19:00.53 | sjansen | Ha! |
| 19:01.14 | sjansen | So for FHE last night my boss was teaching his four year old. |
| 19:01.40 | sjansen | Father: "So if you had a toy and your sister wanted to play with it, what would you do?" |
| 19:01.45 | sjansen | Son: "Keep it." |
| 19:01.54 | sjansen | Father: "What would Jesus do?" |
| 19:02.00 | sjansen | Son: "Send a flood." |
| 19:04.00 | dataw0lf|w | FHE ? |
| 19:04.19 | vontrapp | Fume Hood Exhaust |
| 19:04.38 | sjansen | dataw0lf|w: http://www.lds.org/hf/fhe/welcome/0,16785,4210-,00.html |
| 19:05.02 | shadoi | sjansen: glad to see religion is instilling the fear of god in the new generation. |
| 19:05.18 | dataw0lf|w | sjansen: ah, LDS. Nevermind. |
| 19:05.55 | vontrapp | sjansen: at least the main part isn't purple |
| 19:06.07 | dataw0lf|w | Surprisingly, my family didn't need a religion to tell us to associate with each other. We figured it out ourselves. Crazy, I know. |
| 19:06.27 | sjansen | vontrapp: yeah, that's what I thought, but then my body started to shiver uncontrollably |
| 19:06.52 | vontrapp | hehe |
| 19:10.42 | levi | But purple is the royal color! |
| 19:10.44 | Jayce^ | sjansen, we're just starting to work on that with our son also... |
| 19:11.11 | vontrapp | does he try to flood his sister? |
| 19:15.40 | brailsmt | sjansen: lol |
| 19:16.15 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:17.01 | brailsmt | sjansen: if that quote had swear words and some racial epithets, it would be worthy of bash.org |
| 19:17.06 | brailsmt | ...oh, wait... |
| 19:17.30 | sjansen | ~lart glacially slow servers |
| 19:17.55 | brailsmt | ibot: that was one of the most retarded larts i have ever seen... |
| 19:18.21 | sjansen | ~bzfrag brailsmt |
| 19:18.23 | ibot | ACTION tries to kill brailsmt, but finds the shield flag |
| 19:18.32 | sjansen | brailsmt: so teach her |
| 19:18.51 | brailsmt | teach ibot? |
| 19:18.53 | sjansen | ~stab brailsmt |
| 19:18.55 | ibot | ACTION runs at brailsmt with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut. |
| 19:19.18 | sjansen | okay, enough playing around |
| 19:19.27 | sjansen | ~strangelove brailsmt |
| 19:19.29 | ibot | ACTION destroys half the channel just to get rid of brailsmt |
| 19:23.33 | vontrapp | ~travolta sjansen |
| 19:23.35 | ibot | ACTION replaces sjansen with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power |
| 19:23.46 | Uncle_Jesse | hans: I'm still getting you some good javascript vs flash installation stats, but here's some good comparisons for you: |
| 19:23.57 | Uncle_Jesse | http://www.robrohan.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=B2D4A55D-11E1-667C-7961B4491F33337B |
| 19:24.07 | Uncle_Jesse | and http://www.jonathanboutelle.com/mt/archives/2005/03/flash_rias_vs_j.html |
| 19:27.15 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@jamestkirk.byu.edu) |
| 19:30.24 | vontrapp | hehe, i like how all instances of script are replaces with 'not allowed' |
| 19:30.34 | vontrapp | Javanot allowed |
| 19:33.02 | levi | "Actionscript (unlike JavaScript) is an object-oriented language, so there is the potential for extremely elegant and maintainable code." |
| 19:33.03 | levi | Uhh. |
| 19:33.29 | levi | Someone has a rather narrow view of 'object oriented', and its necessity for elegance and maintainability. |
| 19:34.51 | sjansen | Somebody obviously doesn't know javascript very well. |
| 19:35.26 | sjansen | Although I'd started to warm to it, I didn't learn to really appreciate javascript until I learned what first class functions were. |
| 19:36.06 | levi | First class functions are wonderful. |
| 19:36.58 | levi | So are lexical closures. |
| 19:40.03 | levi | Javascript has both! |
| 19:40.52 | sjansen | It really is a shame they called in Javascript. It's quite different from it's mean, bigger brother. |
| 19:42.08 | brailsmt | somebdy clearly misunderstands OO |
| 19:43.07 | levi | sjansen: It's a lot closer to its other brother, Self. Unfortunately, it got Java's syntax. ;) |
| 19:43.18 | sjansen | "BASIC is better than C because C doesn't have goto's" |
| 19:43.26 | levi | ... |
| 19:43.52 | levi | sjansen: Where'd you get that little pearl of wisdom? |
| 19:43.52 | sjansen | To which any right thinking person would replay: "uhm, it does but it also has something more powerful called functions" |
| 19:44.01 | *** topic/#utah by Jayce^ -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org | PLUG meeting Wednesday : Java on Linux | NUPM Meeting Wenesday : Perl Switches |
| 19:44.16 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org | PLUG meeting Wednesday : Java on Linux | NUPM Meeting Wednesday : Perl Switches |
| 19:44.34 | Jayce^ | uhh |
| 19:44.46 | sjansen | Jayce^: you had a typo |
| 19:45.19 | Jayce^ | ah |
| 19:45.28 | sjansen | levi: Just pointing out how I feel about the "javascript does too have OO" comments |
| 19:46.10 | sjansen | they fall short, although maybe I should have left out the "right thinking" part because I don't fault people for not knowing javascripts more powerful features |
| 19:46.13 | brailsmt | basic is better than C because, bill gates thinks its his, and look how much money bill gates has, so it must be better than C... |
| 19:46.43 | brailsmt | ...since the people that created C aren't as rich bill gates, and he created basic... |
| 19:47.09 | brailsmt | Uncle_Jesse drank the flash kool-aid |
| 19:47.20 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: That particular page didn't seem like it was advocating one over the other. |
| 19:47.36 | sjansen | Javascript: open standard with multiple F/OOS implementations |
| 19:47.54 | sjansen | ActionScript: open standard with anemic F/OSS implementations |
| 19:48.28 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: agreed |
| 19:48.45 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: As one of the commenters pointed out, Javascript will win because you can 'view source'. |
| 19:49.07 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: Which is one of the main reasons HTML took off. |
| 19:49.17 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: agreed, assuming that is your criteria for winning |
| 19:49.47 | Uncle_Jesse | I think Javascript will always be more popular among developers, it doesn't mean it's the best solution for everything |
| 19:50.35 | sjansen | viewing source might be possible, but there's currently much better documentation and development environments for actionscript |
| 19:51.04 | levi | sjansen: But when someone does something cool, like gmail or google maps, you can look and see how it works. |
| 19:51.11 | sjansen | actionscript can whizz and boing, javascript can't yet |
| 19:51.29 | levi | I hate whizzy-boingy pages. |
| 19:51.59 | Uncle_Jesse | and a flash app in whole generally takes up much less space on the server to load than an entire page of javascript/ajax code that does the same thing |
| 19:52.04 | sjansen | yes but whizzing and boing is another point that counter balances viewing source |
| 19:53.00 | Uncle_Jesse | flash does an excellent job with streaming video compared to real media, mpg, etc. |
| 19:53.11 | Uncle_Jesse | (that's a whole other argument for flash) |
| 19:53.46 | Uncle_Jesse | It's saved us tons of $$$ here at Media General in internet broadcasting |
| 19:53.50 | sjansen | unlike vbscript, flash isn't evil, it's merely unfortunate |
| 19:54.00 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: well put |
| 19:54.35 | sjansen | and the F/OSS community is partly to blame for that because there's been little work done to implement the standards Adobe shares |
| 19:58.10 | levi | http://www.apress.com/springrebate/ |
| 19:58.28 | levi | If anyone's interested in buying any current Apress titles. |
| 19:59.53 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 20:00.09 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 20:10.55 | levi | Hmm. Anyone been looking at 'Links'? |
| 20:12.22 | levi | http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/linksetaps/ |
| 20:14.38 | hans | well I'll be. They changed the xscreensver icon |
| 20:15.03 | sjansen | huh? |
| 20:15.27 | sjansen | Is this another one of those things I don't understand because I ignore slashdot? |
| 20:16.20 | levi | sjansen: Are you referring to my link or hans' comment? |
| 20:16.38 | sjansen | his comment |
| 20:18.41 | hans | sjansen: not on /. It just is different, and I noticed it when I came back from lunch (the password screen) |
| 20:19.06 | hans | it went from ugly old X look to rounded-edge imitation of ugly old X look. |
| 20:19.09 | sjansen | oh, I see, you weren't replying to levi |
| 20:19.51 | levi | Links has nothing at all to do with xscreensaver. |
| 20:20.01 | levi | And probably is still quite a ways off from hitting Slashdot. |
| 20:25.36 | hans | yay, nsis is in debian now |
| 20:27.48 | brailsmt | nsis? |
| 20:29.13 | hans | ~google nsis |
| 20:31.39 | levi | This is a fun rant against C++: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/917737b7cc8510e3?q=g:thl2218095647d&hl=en&rnum=9 |
| 20:39.03 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 20:41.36 | sjansen | "C++ is philosophically and cognitively unsound as it forces a violation of all known epistemological processes on the programmer." |
| 20:42.29 | sjansen | Sounds so much better than "C++ is for doo doo heads". :-) |
| 20:43.30 | sjansen | "C++ is a language strongly optimized for liars[...]" |
| 20:43.35 | sjansen | I like this guy. |
| 20:45.18 | levi | He also strongly dislikes perl, for whatever that's worth. |
| 20:45.46 | levi | And wrote an interesting paper on handling time in software: http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html |
| 20:46.40 | sjansen | "C++ turns otherwise good people into paranoid, insecure prostitutes[...]" |
| 20:46.55 | levi | Told you it was a fun rant. :) |
| 20:50.57 | Uncle_Jesse | Jayce^: just out of curiosity, do you guys have a relocation plan? |
| 20:51.15 | Uncle_Jesse | I think my wife would kill me and love me at the same time if I even thought of it |
| 20:51.40 | Jayce^ | actually, they have some (just movers) |
| 20:52.16 | Uncle_Jesse | hmmm... |
| 20:52.35 | Jayce^ | *very* different company now |
| 20:52.49 | Uncle_Jesse | I was only puny little tech support back then in a very start-up company |
| 20:53.00 | Jayce^ | about cleaned it out, now Netzero is a great corporate parent |
| 20:53.08 | Uncle_Jesse | yeah - so I hear |
| 20:53.19 | Uncle_Jesse | I hear you all are doing some stuff for my Uncle though |
| 20:53.34 | Jayce^ | no, we aren't.. Paul and Dan are, but on the side |
| 20:53.49 | Uncle_Jesse | ah - okay - makes sense |
| 20:54.03 | sjansen | For Uncle_Uncle_Jesse? |
| 20:54.05 | Uncle_Jesse | He phrased it differently and I think I caught him in his words |
| 20:54.06 | Jayce^ | neybar is working for them |
| 20:54.08 | Uncle_Jesse | lol |
| 20:54.37 | Uncle_Jesse | you guys still have free drinks in the fridge? |
| 20:54.51 | Uncle_Jesse | silly hr people |
| 20:54.53 | Jayce^ | no |
| 20:55.26 | Uncle_Jesse | well it's not worth it then ;-) |
| 20:55.40 | Uncle_Jesse | I'll mention it to my wife just for kicks to see her response |
| 20:56.31 | Jayce^ | Uncle_Jesse, you could tell her OGF was looking for a programmer again |
| 20:57.06 | Uncle_Jesse | I think she'd hit me |
| 20:57.12 | Uncle_Jesse | lol |
| 20:57.18 | levi | We've got free drinks in the fridge here. :) |
| 20:57.37 | Uncle_Jesse | I should apply for OGF just for kicks |
| 20:57.53 | Uncle_Jesse | it would be fun to turn them down |
| 20:58.14 | Uncle_Jesse | levi: where do you work? |
| 20:58.52 | levi | Uncle_Jesse: Linux Networx |
| 20:59.06 | Uncle_Jesse | that's right. I remember now |
| 20:59.59 | levi | I wonder how much longer the free drinks will last. I saw our facilities guy stocking them today... lots of cases of drinks from Costco. |
| 21:07.24 | Bradipo | They aren't free... Someone, somewhere is paying for them. |
| 21:08.20 | Bradipo | So, in the case of them being provided by the State they could last indefinitely, or otherwise until that someone's funds run out. |
| 21:08.20 | sjansen | But, but, but... |
| 21:09.39 | Uncle_Jesse | We get free drinks because our stock's doing well |
| 21:09.52 | sjansen | If you're /ignored me, raise you hand. |
| 21:10.32 | Uncle_Jesse | why is it so quiet in here? |
| 21:10.59 | vontrapp | because sjansen is /ignored |
| 21:11.23 | Uncle_Jesse | oh - I forgot I had that turned on - sorry sjansen |
| 21:11.29 | Uncle_Jesse | :-) |
| 21:12.22 | sjansen | And now! Back by popular demand! The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight singing 80's song! |
| 21:12.39 | midnight_bomber | In Spanish! |
| 21:12.41 | Newsome | sjansen: not ignoring you, but there is one on this channel who is perpetually ignored. |
| 21:12.59 | Uncle_Jesse | Newsome: who, me? |
| 21:13.49 | lukfugl | "I actually think C++ is ideal only for programmers without any ethics" |
| 21:13.58 | Newsome | uhh, did someone speak? :) |
| 21:14.18 | Newsome | Uncle_Jesse: no, someone closer to the end of the alphabet than you |
| 21:14.55 | Uncle_Jesse | few, well, I've got to head home - adios |
| 21:15.12 | sjansen | Why would you ignore Bradipo? He has an almost perfect signal/noise ratio. |
| 21:15.26 | lukfugl | cya Jesse |
| 21:15.36 | sjansen | Or do you just prefer more noise with your signal? |
| 21:15.54 | sjansen | 'Cause I could hook you up with a good noise generator. |
| 21:16.29 | Newsome | Please, sir. May I have more noise? |
| 21:17.33 | sjansen | I want to encourage everyone |
| 21:17.34 | sjansen | To coordinate your steps and clap |
| 21:17.34 | sjansen | Avoid the individuality trap |
| 21:17.34 | sjansen | Take a walk on the wild side |
| 21:17.34 | sjansen | And the African-American women sing |
| 21:17.34 | brailsmt | cat /dev/urandom > /dev/audio |
| 21:17.34 | sjansen | Do the Hustle! |
| 21:17.36 | brailsmt | there |
| 21:17.36 | sjansen | Do the Hustle! |
| 21:17.38 | sjansen | Do the Hustle! |
| 21:19.41 | hans | sjansen: I've ignored you on select days when I was too volatile and didn't want you to set me off. :) |
| 21:20.11 | levi | http://www.ianalbert.com/misc/unichart.php |
| 21:20.59 | lukfugl | "I am not an lbert".com? |
| 21:21.19 | hans | you are too an lbert! |
| 21:21.21 | sjansen | levi: that's cool |
| 21:22.30 | hans | um, yeah, they rang it up wrong |
| 21:23.56 | vontrapp | that first 100% zoom images looks almost like the number 2 in khmer |
| 21:24.12 | lukfugl | what language is that full row from? |
| 21:24.15 | vontrapp | it probably is, but the loopy thing on it makes me wonder if it's not something similar |
| 21:24.39 | lukfugl | "One complete, full-res row of the chart" |
| 21:26.33 | sjansen | finally! |
| 21:26.43 | unicode0127 | look, I'm planck's constant! |
| 21:26.55 | unicode0127 | (well, close enough) |
| 21:27.13 | vontrapp | it's the thai number 2 |
| 21:27.36 | unicode0127 | vontrapp: and how/where did you discover that? |
| 21:27.59 | vontrapp | looked at cambodian, saw that cambodian 2 was 17e2 |
| 21:28.06 | vontrapp | then lao, 17d2 |
| 21:28.09 | vontrapp | then thai was the one |
| 21:28.12 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:28.16 | vontrapp | they are all very similar |
| 21:28.56 | vontrapp | actually, i lied, lao was 0ed2 |
| 21:29.12 | brailsmt | liar |
| 21:29.23 | vontrapp | better get back to my C++ |
| 21:29.36 | unicode0127 | hmm, that line is Yi Syllables |
| 21:30.04 | U | d'oh |
| 21:30.58 | vontrapp | brailsmt: a bit late there :) |
| 21:33.46 | lukfugl | If anyone wants to find me I'll be in a tibetan monastery |
| 21:33.52 | lukfugl | cya |
| 21:33.54 | *** part/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 21:34.13 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 21:34.17 | lukfugl | aw, it was too hard |
| 21:38.29 | *** join/#utah RyanBE (~ryan@65.73.184.226) |
| 21:41.22 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 21:42.59 | neybar | sjansen: how is fedoras current support of amd64? |
| 21:43.14 | sjansen | don't know about current |
| 21:43.20 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@207.141.37.66) |
| 21:43.31 | sjansen | fc3 had among the best available |
| 21:43.56 | sjansen | suse and red hat have approached the solution slightly differently, but both are pretty good |
| 21:44.05 | sjansen | neither without problems |
| 21:44.15 | neybar | what is your recommendation for a good newbie distro that has amd64 support? I really like ubuntu.. |
| 21:44.17 | sjansen | but much better than Debian/Ubuntu/Gentoo in my opinion |
| 21:44.53 | sjansen | Ubuntu is a good distro, but the Debian decision to go with pure 64 will bite the person eventually. |
| 21:45.58 | sjansen | Fedora's multilib implemenation isn't perfect, but it will work better in a predominantly 32 bit world. |
| 21:46.54 | sjansen | Now if you were to go with a 32bit install of Ubuntu... |
| 21:47.17 | sjansen | Or you don't expect the person to poke at the system much. |
| 21:48.03 | neybar | It is hard to say... being a windows admin kind of trains you not to poke things too hard. |
| 21:48.11 | sjansen | The 64 bit issue will only become a problem when the person starts wanting to install third party software, and will get worse if the person wants to develop software. |
| 21:49.07 | sjansen | But if you stick to Ubuntu provided software, it's rock solid. |
| 21:49.45 | Bradipo | neybar: With Windows, instead of learning what to do, you learn what not to do. :-) |
| 21:50.02 | brailsmt | i learned not to use it |
| 21:50.07 | brailsmt | :) |
| 21:55.45 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@71.32.228.156) |
| 21:56.13 | neybar | lol |
| 21:56.45 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@207.141.37.66) |
| 22:10.49 | mheath | neybar, DeskOS :) |
| 22:36.17 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@pool-68-160-167-183.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 22:38.45 | hans | sjansen: check your pulse. |
| 22:40.10 | sjansen | yeah, still beating |
| 22:40.32 | sjansen | Maybe it's just that I don't car which side wins in a Java v. PHP rumble. |
| 22:42.10 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:42.58 | Jayce^ | sjansen, but it's still fun to watch the fight |
| 22:43.17 | Jayce^ | and besides, what's a flame war on a utah list without you stirring things up? |
| 22:47.52 | lukfugl | good post sjansen :) |
| 22:49.32 | Jayce^ | ooh, I love the casting :) |
| 22:53.00 | neybar | rofl |
| 23:09.59 | vontrapp | ~lart php preg |
| 23:10.31 | vontrapp | i want to "foobar" ~= /^foo/ |
| 23:10.39 | vontrapp | how does preg do something similar? |
| 23:11.15 | vontrapp | preg_match("^foo", "foobar") says "no ending delimiter "^" found ..." |
| 23:11.35 | sjansen | vontrapp: you've fallen into the class php user who doesn't know perl trap |
| 23:11.47 | sjansen | preg_match("/^foo/", "foobar") |
| 23:12.04 | sjansen | or if you want to show off |
| 23:12.08 | vontrapp | ah, so i just have to put the slashes in |
| 23:12.11 | sjansen | preg_match("[^foo]", "foobar") |
| 23:12.28 | sjansen | or confuse your co-workers |
| 23:12.41 | vontrapp | i only have a superior, no coworker |
| 23:12.44 | sjansen | preg_match("~^foo~", "foobar") |
| 23:13.22 | sjansen | well then you definately want to go with |
| 23:13.29 | sjansen | preg_match(",^foo,", "foobar") |
| 23:14.15 | hans | hey, leggo my prego |
| 23:15.03 | vontrapp | you can have your prego |
| 23:16.59 | Bradipo | vontrapp: However, to have real sauces you need real ingredients. |
| 23:17.10 | Bradipo | Most real ingredients are hard to come buy in today's markets. |
| 23:17.41 | Bradipo | The tomatoes at all supermarkets suck. |
| 23:17.56 | tensai | lots of tomatoes. roma, cherry, you name it |
| 23:17.57 | Bradipo | And what good is a sauce without real Parmigiano Reggiano? |
| 23:18.09 | Bradipo | tensai: Did you plant them in the garden or in pots? |
| 23:18.29 | tensai | in planters for now. putting them in the ground now would be a death sentence |
| 23:18.34 | Bradipo | RIght. |
| 23:18.37 | Bradipo | That's why I asked. |
| 23:18.41 | tensai | they'll go outside at the end of May probably |
| 23:18.47 | Bradipo | I have a bunch that I have planted in pots as well. |
| 23:18.58 | Bradipo | If you're interested, I have a bunch of San Marzano tomato seeds. |
| 23:19.21 | tensai | what's a san marzano tomato and what makes them so desirable? |
| 23:19.22 | Bradipo | I bought 1oz of them (clearly more than I need, but they didn't offer a package of smaller size). |
| 23:19.35 | Bradipo | San Marzano is *the* tomato to use for Italian sauces. |
| 23:19.46 | Bradipo | Roma's don't cut it. |
| 23:20.29 | sjansen | It's alive! Alive! |
| 23:20.30 | Bradipo | Almost all Italian recipies (written in Italian) that I read list San Marzano as the tomato to use. |
| 23:20.56 | sjansen | jk xacv.;p9[- |
| 23:21.02 | Bradipo | I've actually never grown them, so we'll see how well they do. |
| 23:21.21 | Bradipo | But you're welcome to some of the seeds if you want to experiment. |
| 23:21.44 | Bradipo | Next year I will know which seeds were the best. |
| 23:22.08 | sjansen | lukfugl: Sorry to disappoint. I was actually talking about adding custom truetype fonts to ConTeXt. |
| 23:22.33 | vontrapp | sjansen: and you did dissapoint, big time |
| 23:22.37 | lukfugl | yeah, I see that now. The war is starting, but still boring |
| 23:22.44 | vontrapp | what is context anyhow? |
| 23:22.45 | vontrapp | ~context |
| 23:22.47 | ibot | i heard context is spelled with two Ts |
| 23:23.01 | Bradipo | This sight confirms that they grow in Logan Utah, so we should be good down here so far south: http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/30649/ |
| 23:23.21 | sjansen | ConTeXt is like LaTeX but less messy and more oriented to DTP instead of academics. |
| 23:23.51 | sjansen | see pragma-ade.com for details |
| 23:24.03 | sjansen | ibot, no ConTeXt is like LaTeX but less messy and more oriented to DTP instead of academics. |
| 23:24.05 | ibot | okay, sjansen |
| 23:24.33 | sjansen | make clean |
| 23:24.48 | Bradipo | tensai: http://cheftalkcafe.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2666.html |
| 23:24.55 | Bradipo | There's a discussion of the San Marzano. :-) |
| 23:27.17 | lukfugl | how do you add make rules to ibot? |
| 23:27.38 | lukfugl | ~make clean |
| 23:27.40 | ibot | make: *** No rule to make target `clean'. Stop. |
| 23:27.52 | vontrapp | ~make food |
| 23:27.55 | ibot | make: *** No rule to make target `food'. Stop. |
| 23:28.05 | lukfugl | vontrapp: already tried that one in /msg :) |
| 23:29.24 | Bradipo | Anyway, if any of you want to try some of these seeds, let me know, I have plenty. |
| 23:39.28 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:42.54 | *** part/#utah tensai (~tensai@207.141.37.66) |
| 23:45.57 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (~emcnabb@pool-151-203-56-50.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:49.56 | *** join/#utah emcnabb__ (~emcnabb@pool-151-203-56-50.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:50.49 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org) |