| 00:01.28 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 00:12.50 | mrpull_ | anyone use HPaq MSA's? |
| 00:14.47 | Newsome | hey, sjansen...whatever happened to that press release you were looking at doing the other day? |
| 00:20.07 | mrpull_ | whoa... anybody else see the Qwest DSL Premier coming in may? |
| 00:22.07 | *** join/#utah vontrapp_ (~von@tsa-ap1.byu.edu) |
| 00:36.49 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@pool-141-154-10-128.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:38.46 | *** join/#utah jk1joe1 (~jsmith@ns.jk1.net) |
| 00:38.58 | *** part/#utah jk1joe1 (~jsmith@ns.jk1.net) |
| 00:47.33 | *** join/#utah mooneroid_ (~mooneroid@jmoon.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:50.04 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 00:50.21 | *** part/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 01:18.50 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 01:21.52 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~scott@216.126.221.115) |
| 01:26.08 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 01:30.15 | *** join/#utah scott (~scott@128.187.245.205) |
| 02:01.18 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 02:59.29 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-24-2-90-181.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:17.02 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:649:20d:93ff:feee:1e73) |
| 03:19.02 | brailsmt | what is a good lib for doing vector transforms? ie, I want to do some graphics rotations without writing the matrix code myself... |
| 03:26.02 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@kite.zmonkey.org) |
| 03:34.19 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (~emcnabb@pool-141-154-10-58.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 03:37.20 | *** join/#utah emcnabb__ (~emcnabb@pool-141-154-10-58.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 03:41.51 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@c-67-161-219-228.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:00.28 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~josh@josh.dsl.aros.net) |
| 04:20.37 | *** join/#utah phinux (~phinux@208.187.181.227) |
| 04:49.38 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.192.70) |
| 04:49.40 | *** join/#utah bigdog (~bigdog_ut@166.70.192.70) |
| 05:05.21 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (~cristobal@c-24-10-166-175.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:05.42 | Hhhhh | hello |
| 05:05.51 | Maquis | Hhhhhello |
| 05:05.56 | Hhhhh | hi maquis |
| 05:06.11 | Maquis | how goes it? |
| 05:06.18 | Hhhhh | fine, just working |
| 05:06.30 | Hhhhh | i like overnight programming for money |
| 05:06.33 | *** join/#utah fishyfire (~fishyfire@65.105.158.130.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 05:06.48 | Hhhhh | better than overnight programming for school |
| 05:06.53 | Maquis | sounds better than overnight programming for classes :) |
| 05:07.40 | Hhhhh | how's the UUG campaign? |
| 05:07.40 | fishyfire | anyone have any experience with finding the worst-case value of output offset voltage for a circuit? |
| 05:07.50 | Maquis | Hhhhh: going well... |
| 05:08.06 | Hhhhh | sorry fishyfire, not much of an electrical engineer here |
| 05:08.14 | Maquis | fishyfire: ummm... i don't... you could try spr or specialk...?? |
| 05:08.24 | Hhhhh | hey, is Mike still banned? |
| 05:08.33 | Hhhhh | from the UUG list? |
| 05:08.44 | fishyfire | didn't spr change to cs major? |
| 05:09.05 | Maquis | Hhhhh: he sent an email saying that he had no interest in coming back... if he wanted to, he's welcome to email andrew and figure things out there... |
| 05:09.08 | Hhhhh | CS = true gospel (j/k_ |
| 05:09.16 | fishyfire | LOL |
| 05:09.19 | Maquis | fishyfire: yes, but he still might know |
| 05:09.24 | fishyfire | okay |
| 05:09.36 | Hhhhh | i know, I feel bad |
| 05:09.39 | Maquis | Specialk just changed from cs to ecen |
| 05:09.44 | fishyfire | okzy |
| 05:09.47 | SpecialK | That was a year ago |
| 05:09.47 | fishyfire | okay |
| 05:09.57 | fishyfire | so any 313 experience? |
| 05:09.57 | Maquis | oh... right |
| 05:09.59 | SpecialK | and it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. |
| 05:10.16 | Hhhhh | glad it works for you specialk |
| 05:10.17 | SpecialK | Yes, I still remember some of 313. |
| 05:10.28 | Hhhhh | i had my quota with 224 |
| 05:10.37 | fishyfire | any of the worst-case value of output offset voltage for a circuit? |
| 05:10.46 | Hhhhh | and with ECEN teachers as well |
| 05:10.54 | fishyfire | the book isn't being especially helpful |
| 05:10.59 | fishyfire | which teachers?\ |
| 05:11.10 | Hhhhh | hmm, I'd rather not say names |
| 05:11.21 | fishyfire | ok.... |
| 05:11.21 | Hhhhh | but I did not like some of the teachers |
| 05:11.44 | Hhhhh | and some of the policies at the ECEN dept |
| 05:11.47 | SpecialK | Worst case is actually fairly easy. |
| 05:12.02 | fishyfire | the hw seems pretty easy tonight actually |
| 05:12.18 | Hhhhh | i heard 313 was pretty tough |
| 05:12.24 | Hhhhh | is it |
| 05:12.25 | Hhhhh | ? |
| 05:12.34 | fishyfire | what i was finding was incorporating current in to the equations |
| 05:12.42 | SpecialK | you just add your voltages together to see what the max and min are. |
| 05:12.42 | fishyfire | and all i have is resistances |
| 05:12.58 | Hhhhh | maquis, how's 345? |
| 05:13.01 | fishyfire | i have a Vos = +- 2mv |
| 05:13.12 | Maquis | Hhhhh: i'm behind |
| 05:13.26 | fishyfire | and two resistors both = 10k |
| 05:13.29 | fishyfire | hmm |
| 05:13.30 | fishyfire | ok |
| 05:13.47 | fishyfire | i can get Vout |
| 05:13.52 | SpecialK | in p or series? |
| 05:14.02 | fishyfire | in an op-amp configuration |
| 05:14.07 | fishyfire | inverting |
| 05:15.28 | fishyfire | Hhhhh i guess it depends oh who you are and your definition of tough |
| 05:15.36 | fishyfire | some people enjoy the class more than others |
| 05:15.56 | fishyfire | on not oh |
| 05:16.05 | Hhhhh | well, 224 was very interesting, I guess I did not like the treatment I received from the teacher |
| 05:16.11 | fishyfire | LOL |
| 05:16.19 | Hhhhh | but I took 124 and 324 from the ECEN dept and they were fun |
| 05:16.20 | fishyfire | i understand exactly what you are talking about |
| 05:16.37 | fishyfire | i'm in 224 right now |
| 05:16.57 | SpecialK | So it's a matched opamp configuration with gain of 1 or 1/(1+a) ? |
| 05:17.03 | Maquis | 124 and 324 were more programming/software based than 224... |
| 05:17.19 | Hhhhh | i guess that helped the fact that I liked them |
| 05:17.21 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 05:17.32 | Hhhhh | newsome: 143? |
| 05:17.32 | SpecialK | Incidentally someone asked if it's hard. I got a C, and so did most everybody else. |
| 05:17.44 | fishyfire | i hope to pass the class |
| 05:17.50 | SpecialK | But that is due to poorly written tests and a senile professor. |
| 05:17.51 | fishyfire | not doing especially well |
| 05:18.00 | fishyfire | which professor did you take it from? |
| 05:18.03 | Newsome | Hhhhh: yeah, CS143, EE220, and CS380 |
| 05:18.06 | SpecialK | fishyfire: when is this due? |
| 05:18.10 | Hhhhh | SpecialK: oh, i know who you;re talking about |
| 05:18.22 | fishyfire | tomorrow morning before 8 |
| 05:18.23 | Hhhhh | i didn't take 224 from him |
| 05:18.33 | SpecialK | Comer, the author of the fine 313 book. ;) |
| 05:18.49 | fishyfire | neither of the Comer's are teaching 313 anymore |
| 05:19.13 | SpecialK | I know |
| 05:19.27 | fishyfire | we are running behind in class and just barely got to talking about this at the end of lecture today |
| 05:19.31 | Hhhhh | well, since you guys are naming, the guy I did not like was Nelson |
| 05:19.41 | fishyfire | and he hasn't posted his notes on the web yet |
| 05:19.51 | fishyfire | hmm never heard of him |
| 05:20.30 | fishyfire | i like my 224 professor |
| 05:20.34 | Hhhhh | who is it? |
| 05:20.49 | fishyfire | Worthlin |
| 05:20.56 | Hhhhh | never heard of him |
| 05:21.24 | fishyfire | the way the class is structured isn't the greatest |
| 05:21.49 | fishyfire | err Wirthlin |
| 05:22.16 | fishyfire | there are two teachers for the class and they are trying to teach it exactly the same |
| 05:22.34 | fishyfire | so sometimes our professor doesn't always agree with the way things are being done |
| 05:22.52 | fishyfire | but he seems to care |
| 05:23.38 | Hhhhh | I think they should have teachers teach all the sections of a class instead of several classes in the same semester |
| 05:23.51 | Hhhhh | that way there are no differences between sections |
| 05:23.56 | Hhhhh | and teachers can focus a bit more |
| 05:24.29 | fishyfire | SpecialK: for that circuit it is just the op-amp with a 10k feedback resistor and a 10k resistor going into it |
| 05:24.35 | fishyfire | and there is no input voltage |
| 05:24.49 | fishyfire | and can teach with their style of teaching |
| 05:24.59 | Hhhhh | hey ECEn guys, is there a class in your dept that teaches about graphics adapter hardware? |
| 05:24.59 | fishyfire | without being molded to fit a certain form |
| 05:25.04 | SpecialK | Maquis and I got screwed over by two CS 252 professors. |
| 05:25.22 | fishyfire | Cs 252? what is that one? |
| 05:25.22 | Hhhhh | who? I was a TA for 252 a long time ago |
| 05:25.32 | Hhhhh | theory of computation |
| 05:25.35 | SpecialK | Hhhhh: not that I'm aware of |
| 05:25.46 | SpecialK | fishyfire: no imput voltage? |
| 05:25.51 | fishyfire | nope |
| 05:26.10 | fishyfire | the output of the op-amp is labeled Vout |
| 05:26.11 | SpecialK | so the 10k at the - terminal goes to ground? |
| 05:26.15 | Hhhhh | SpecialK: who was the 252 teacher? |
| 05:26.22 | Maquis | Hhhhh: gutierrez |
| 05:26.23 | fishyfire | and everything else is tied to ground |
| 05:26.25 | Hhhhh | oh |
| 05:26.31 | Hhhhh | was it on a winter semester? |
| 05:26.39 | Maquis | yes |
| 05:26.51 | SpecialK | I liked guiterrez, he just didn't have free rein to teach hsi own class. |
| 05:26.53 | Hhhhh | you know what happened? it's not gutierrez's fault |
| 05:27.01 | Hhhhh | it's the CS dept's |
| 05:27.09 | Maquis | "what happened"? |
| 05:27.20 | Hhhhh | they made him teach 3 sections of 3 different classes before they fired him |
| 05:27.26 | Hhhhh | 450, 470 and 252 |
| 05:27.28 | fishyfire | this should be a fairly simple problem... i just am not seeing it |
| 05:27.39 | SpecialK | so nothing is connected , and it has just vout? |
| 05:27.48 | Hhhhh | the spring after that semester I TAed for him 252 |
| 05:28.03 | Maquis | Hhhhh: he seemed like a nice teacher, but i didn't get along exceptionally well with him... |
| 05:28.05 | Hhhhh | and they fired him, I think the whole thing was very unfair from my point of view |
| 05:28.21 | Hhhhh | he's nice, also he did an exceptional job on the spring |
| 05:28.29 | Hhhhh | it was that winter that sucked |
| 05:28.30 | fishyfire | well the feedback resistor is connected to the negative input of the omp amp on one end and the output of the opamp on the other end |
| 05:28.54 | Hhhhh | i took 252 the same semester but from goodrich |
| 05:29.17 | Maquis | i wish i had taken it from goodrich... i think i would've had a better experience... |
| 05:29.26 | Hhhhh | on the spring the tests were very similar to those in the winter and the average on the first midterm was a 90% |
| 05:29.33 | Hhhhh | I graded it :) |
| 05:29.55 | SpecialK | Maquis was the victim of profiling. |
| 05:29.59 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 05:30.10 | fishyfire | only female in the class? |
| 05:30.11 | SpecialK | I'm quite serious |
| 05:30.24 | Maquis | not only |
| 05:30.29 | Hhhhh | well, if you think that is targeting, you should have seen my 224 section man |
| 05:30.38 | Maquis | ??? |
| 05:30.56 | Hhhhh | well, I'm saying too much |
| 05:31.12 | Hhhhh | I think nelson targetted everything in his class when i took it, but oh well |
| 05:31.22 | Maquis | yeah... i've seen a good number of things in CS classes... |
| 05:31.56 | Maquis | although, i honestly think that the majority of it is not intentional, and that in a lot of cases, the prof doesn't even realize it's going on |
| 05:32.01 | Hhhhh | well, this one was ECEn but oh well |
| 05:32.31 | Hhhhh | in my case Maquis, it was impossible to be unintentional, but yea, most of the time it is unintentional |
| 05:32.47 | Maquis | another female cs major and i got together, and just sent an anonymous note (no names of teachers or anything) just recommending that all the cs profs read a couple articles that we had found that kind of discussed the issues that we had seen... |
| 05:33.04 | Hhhhh | good |
| 05:33.20 | *** join/#utah flyboy^ (~flyboy@69.20.57.22) |
| 05:33.28 | flyboy^ | Hi all. |
| 05:33.32 | Hhhhh | hello |
| 05:33.34 | Maquis | hi flyboy^ |
| 05:33.51 | fishyfire | howdy |
| 05:33.52 | flyboy^ | I've decided I love being a Linux sys admin. |
| 05:33.58 | Hhhhh | cool |
| 05:34.05 | Maquis | flyboy^: that does sound like fun! |
| 05:34.41 | flyboy^ | In fact, I actually love being a 'senior' Linux sys admin. I hate it how the title really does make a difference. |
| 05:34.48 | flyboy^ | At least for me. |
| 05:34.53 | flyboy^ | Ego, pride, all that crap. |
| 05:34.57 | Hhhhh | lol, well, that's good man |
| 05:34.59 | Hhhhh | hehe |
| 05:35.23 | Hhhhh | you could get a pretty decent (although unstable) job at Novell pretty easily |
| 05:35.26 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 05:35.57 | flyboy^ | Unstable would be a big thing there. |
| 05:36.21 | flyboy^ | I wouldn't bet the whole potato on one 'big thing' - but hey, maybe that's just the message. |
| 05:36.41 | Hhhhh | I did an internship there, and almost everyone in my team had been fired and rehired several times, lol |
| 05:36.57 | fishyfire | lol |
| 05:37.01 | flyboy^ | I really think Novell could go some place with their ideas, I just wonder if they are perhaps a few years to early. |
| 05:37.16 | flyboy^ | I know some people in here work for them though. |
| 05:37.20 | flyboy^ | So, speak up. |
| 05:37.25 | Hhhhh | yea, one thing I do commend them for was to take the risk and follow through |
| 05:37.38 | Hhhhh | I loved working at novell |
| 05:38.09 | flyboy^ | I saw a presentation by Novell regarding their Linux solution a few months ago, delivered by a marketing guy. |
| 05:38.26 | flyboy^ | Now, marketing guys in general are bad, but this guy didn't seem to 'get' his audience. |
| 05:38.47 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 05:38.49 | flyboy^ | Linux/FOSS folk are sort of a different group of people. |
| 05:38.50 | Maquis | Hhhhh: that firing and rehiring sounds like the way that boeing works |
| 05:38.53 | flyboy^ | Unix admins and all that. |
| 05:39.12 | Hhhhh | flyboy^:oh, yea, definetely |
| 05:39.44 | Hhhhh | at Novell you'll find a lot of technical people that really know what they're doing |
| 05:39.45 | flyboy^ | I think you have to know how to approach FOSS people, and rule number one is - know your crap. |
| 05:39.53 | Maquis | and from what i've heard, the rest of the days were good too... |
| 05:40.03 | Hhhhh | but many of their office people are just too new to OSS |
| 05:41.04 | flyboy^ | I think another big thing when dealing with FOSS folk is be open and honest. We are used to seeing Linus duke it out with Alan over some obscure kernel feature - we like everything open (duh). |
| 05:41.16 | Maquis | flyboy^: :) |
| 05:41.43 | Hhhhh | flyboy^:I think Novell has been very open about stuff, why do you say that? |
| 05:41.46 | flyboy^ | I really like that fact, you can get right in the mix if you want and duke it out with them. |
| 05:42.04 | Maquis | i think another thing about FOSS people is that they tend to be rather passionate about computers and about OSS... |
| 05:42.11 | flyboy^ | I don't think the company has a whole has a problem per se, just this one marketing droid. |
| 05:42.17 | Hhhhh | Maquis: YOU ARE SO TRUE |
| 05:42.32 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.192.70) |
| 05:42.40 | Hhhhh | Maquis: that was pretty much my whole point in the OpenSource vs ClosedSource flame-war |
| 05:42.43 | flyboy^ | Maquis: Along with that, I think you could say we like it "MY" way. Meaning, we like to customize the crap out of things. |
| 05:42.44 | Maquis | Hhhhh: yes... i believe you saw a bit of passion a week ago... :) |
| 05:42.54 | Maquis | flyboy^: very true |
| 05:43.26 | Maquis | that's part of why there's emacs/vim, gnome/kde/fluxbox/evilwm/other, debian/gentoo, etc |
| 05:43.35 | flyboy^ | I think Novell's message is about brining Linux to the MCSEs of the world, but maybe I'm wrong. |
| 05:43.38 | Hhhhh | Maquis: i'm just sorry Mike and I clashed a bit too hard |
| 05:44.08 | Maquis | Hhhhh: yeah... well, that's kind of what happens when you push the wrong buttons on people |
| 05:44.24 | Maquis | i think you kinda hit the wrong buttons on some of the loudest members of the club... |
| 05:44.32 | Hhhhh | I really did not intend to push them |
| 05:44.33 | flyboy^ | Which button was it, the emacs or gentoo one? :) |
| 05:44.35 | Maquis | (and even some of the more quiet ones got pretty involved) |
| 05:44.41 | Hhhhh | the copyright one |
| 05:44.44 | flyboy^ | Ahh. |
| 05:44.49 | flyboy^ | Yeah, that can be a big one. |
| 05:44.54 | Maquis | yeah |
| 05:45.01 | Hhhhh | yea, i might be a bit extreme with some of my ideas, although i'm very loyal to OSS |
| 05:45.10 | Hhhhh | 73 |
| 05:45.13 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 05:45.16 | fishyfire | only 73? |
| 05:45.22 | Maquis | it seemed like more |
| 05:45.32 | Maquis | but i guess that's because the kickbanning thread got mixed in with that |
| 05:45.33 | fishyfire | my folder filed up rapidly with them |
| 05:45.39 | Maquis | i know in one day, i got 150 messages |
| 05:45.50 | flyboy^ | Drama. |
| 05:45.52 | Hhhhh | but i really did not mean to make an ordeal of the size it ended up being. I talked to Andrew about that |
| 05:45.53 | fishyfire | i finally filtered them all to their own folder |
| 05:46.15 | flyboy^ | You know when you have to write a filter it's serious. :) |
| 05:46.16 | Hhhhh | well, you're adding up the banning Mike thread with the OSSvsCSS one |
| 05:46.35 | Maquis | Hhhhh: yeah |
| 05:46.55 | Maquis | there were three separate flame wars... |
| 05:47.10 | fishyfire | i put the filter into affect a while ago when i decided i actually wanted to be able to find email from someone other than the uug |
| 05:47.14 | Hhhhh | yup. It made things interesting though |
| 05:47.19 | Maquis | and they were all started by whoever it was that posted the "not wanting to start a flame-war, but why would you run linux on a mac?" email |
| 05:47.29 | Hhhhh | oh, lol |
| 05:47.37 | flyboy^ | hehe. |
| 05:47.40 | Hhhhh | that's the same dude that started the OSSvsCSS war |
| 05:47.51 | Hhhhh | I kind of followed it |
| 05:47.55 | flyboy^ | That answer to that is easy: BECAUSE YOU CAN! ;D |
| 05:48.04 | Maquis | Hhhhh: yeah... all 3 flame wars started off that email... |
| 05:49.22 | flyboy^ | Wow, Al Gore is a strange dude. |
| 05:49.33 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 05:49.36 | Maquis | btw Hhhhh all that stuff made that a pretty ugly weekend and start of last week |
| 05:49.37 | Hhhhh | I guess I just hate when software preference becomes religion... |
| 05:49.43 | flyboy^ | Says here is is starting up some TV channel for kids so they can 'keep up with current events' |
| 05:50.16 | Hhhhh | well, some people actually told me that it was interesting and revitalizing, although I am sad that Mike ended up banned |
| 05:50.22 | flyboy^ | Maquis: What list was this on? |
| 05:50.28 | Maquis | flyboy^: uug-list |
| 05:50.31 | Hhhhh | I guess i'm the responsible for the flaming you got |
| 05:50.40 | Hhhhh | *shivers* |
| 05:50.54 | Maquis | Hhhhh: i'm sure it was interesting for the people who didn't have to deal with it from the presidency's point of view... :) |
| 05:50.58 | flyboy^ | Maquis: More info please, I'm not on that one. |
| 05:50.59 | Maquis | the discussion itself was interesting |
| 05:51.05 | Hhhhh | I know, I talked to Andrew about it |
| 05:51.08 | Maquis | flyboy^: what info do you need |
| 05:51.10 | Maquis | ? |
| 05:51.15 | flyboy^ | Maquis: mailman url? |
| 05:51.27 | Maquis | ummm... /me is lazy... |
| 05:51.32 | Maquis | it's linked to by uug.byu.edu |
| 05:51.37 | flyboy^ | k |
| 05:51.43 | Maquis | there's a "mailing list" link on the left side |
| 05:51.45 | Hhhhh | again, i meant no harm, I had no idea that Mike was going to react like that. I strongly disagree with what he said, but I don't get all that worked up by what I read on a forum |
| 05:52.17 | Maquis | Hhhhh: agreed... |
| 05:52.43 | Newsome | Maquis: regarding the anonymous note...Dr. Martinez took it seriously, and sent it to all the faculty. It generated some healthy introspective discussion. |
| 05:52.51 | Hhhhh | i had no idea that he would react that way |
| 05:53.38 | Maquis | Newsome: i'm very glad to hear that |
| 05:53.59 | Maquis | i was hoping nobody would take offense at it, but we ) |
| 05:54.09 | Maquis | (girls in CS) felt it was something that needed to be brought up |
| 05:54.29 | Maquis | before we passed it along, we had at least 4 or 5 of the girls in the program read through it... |
| 05:54.44 | Hhhhh | that was good Maquis, i'm sure that that was good since you felt uncomfortable and i'm sure Dr. Martinez will take action on it |
| 05:54.50 | Maquis | everybody seemed to have at least one experience that made them think that it was necessary |
| 05:55.54 | Newsome | Maquis: and just recently, there were two other students who sent a similar email to the department. It was similar, but was about treatment by us bonehead male students, rather than the faculty. |
| 05:56.15 | Maquis | Newsome: honestly, not surprised by that either.... |
| 05:56.33 | Hhhhh | hmm |
| 05:56.52 | fishyfire | lol |
| 05:57.00 | flyboy^ | Why would that even come up? |
| 05:57.10 | flyboy^ | I'll have the read the thread. |
| 05:57.25 | Maquis | flyboy^: this isn't in response to the thread on uug-list |
| 05:57.31 | flyboy^ | Oh. |
| 05:57.51 | flyboy^ | some note about sexual descrimination? |
| 05:58.09 | Newsome | right, different topics |
| 05:58.41 | Hhhhh | all I can say is: I've had good male TAs, good female TAs, horrible male TAs, horrible female TAs |
| 05:58.43 | flyboy^ | I don't know where sex even enters into computers, but what ever. :) |
| 05:59.18 | Maquis | flyboy^: that's good that you don't see where it is involved... but there are guys out there who have different views... |
| 05:59.42 | Hhhhh | i've had good study groups that consisted of girls only, guys only, and both |
| 05:59.44 | flyboy^ | I would take a guess and say that they would have those views in any field. |
| 06:00.14 | flyboy^ | I think woman have a place in IT just like men have a place in nursing. |
| 06:00.17 | Maquis | flyboy^: very true... however... a quick story from a career fair (and i don't even remember what company it was) |
| 06:00.24 | Hhhhh | flyboy^: very true |
| 06:00.24 | flyboy^ | (my wife happens to be a nurse. :) |
| 06:00.44 | Maquis | i was going through engineering and CS career fair (the one in the clyde and crabtree) last fall with a male friend of mine |
| 06:00.58 | Maquis | i wanted to talk to one of the booths, so he just hung out while i talked to the recruiters |
| 06:01.10 | Maquis | every time i asked a question of the recruiter, he turned to the guy i was with and answered it to him |
| 06:01.25 | Newsome | ugh |
| 06:01.29 | Hhhhh | what a jerk |
| 06:01.39 | Maquis | honestly, i got a pretty good laugh at that |
| 06:01.49 | Maquis | i've heard a lot worse stories from in the industry |
| 06:02.23 | Maquis | we had a guy speaking to our cs404 class tell that a girl had just been transferred into his project group (a promotion from a different group) |
| 06:02.30 | Newsome | A guy did that to my mom when she was buying a car once. She'd ask questions, and the guy would answer to my dad. |
| 06:02.48 | Hhhhh | when I was working at Novell, one of the best programmers in my team (and one of my boss's wildcards) was a young girl that graduated in Statistics |
| 06:02.58 | Maquis | at her first meeting with the group, the project manager turned to the girl and said "go get us our coffee"... she gave him a quizzical look, and he replied "you know that's why you're in this group" |
| 06:03.11 | Hhhhh | oh, I heard that |
| 06:03.11 | Newsome | ugh |
| 06:03.17 | Hhhhh | it was a lday that worked at Novell |
| 06:03.19 | flyboy^ | Well, at the company I work for we have Tina, our QA girl and Perl hax0r extrodinair. She is awesome. She does not follow the stereotype of a so called 'geek chick' - she is a girl. And she is great. The fact she is a girl has never even come up. |
| 06:03.30 | Maquis | Hhhhh: i think so... |
| 06:03.47 | Maquis | flyboy^: that's very nice... what company is that? |
| 06:03.56 | flyboy^ | westhost |
| 06:04.51 | Maquis | my general opinion is that if it's an issue with the guys being boneheaded, and not realizing what they're doing, i can usually get a good laugh out of it |
| 06:05.03 | flyboy^ | All I care about, and the people I work with care about, is that you know your junk. |
| 06:05.10 | Hhhhh | well, they should realize that they're boneheads |
| 06:05.15 | flyboy^ | If you know it - your kung fu is great - that's all that counts. |
| 06:05.27 | Hhhhh | very true flyboy^ |
| 06:06.05 | Maquis | i have found that situations like these aren't common at all, but they do occur |
| 06:06.16 | flyboy^ | What I hate (male OR female) is when some idiot puts 'java' or 'php' or 'c/c++' on his/her resume and can't answer a simple question about them. THAT is reason to kick them out the door. |
| 06:06.28 | Hhhhh | lol, true |
| 06:06.39 | Maquis | flyboy^: yeah |
| 06:06.56 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~scott@216.126.221.115) |
| 06:06.58 | flyboy^ | We've been hiring latley (so I'm a bit opinionated at the moment). |
| 06:07.35 | flyboy^ | When I say "SENIOR Software Enginner" what part of that says "Some guys who just graduated from school." |
| 06:07.55 | Hhhhh | lol, true dat |
| 06:08.05 | JoshH | ya, but you cant blame people for trying |
| 06:08.16 | Hhhhh | well, flyboy^, you need to consider that they'r graduates, they're beyond senior year (...) |
| 06:08.22 | JoshH | a lot of job postings have outrageous "requirements" listed |
| 06:08.28 | flyboy^ | I interviewed a Sr. Applicant the other day that couldn't write one single regular expression! |
| 06:08.51 | fishyfire | System.out.println("Wow"); |
| 06:09.09 | Hhhhh | Console.WriteLine("HelloWorld"); |
| 06:09.15 | flyboy^ | Can you match this url? "no" Can you match this WORD? "No, I don't know anything about it." |
| 06:09.23 | Hhhhh | Newsome: LOL |
| 06:09.39 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~scott@216.126.221.115) |
| 06:10.05 | JoshH | every sunday i crack open the trib, look at the ads, and laugh at the jobs that want years of experience, tons of education, that mention pay ranges that are in the 30's |
| 06:10.08 | flyboy^ | Our search for Jr's out of school has been pretty bleak as well - but some of our top apps are from BYU - so go guys. |
| 06:10.09 | Newsome | where do people come up with these sorts of requirements |
| 06:10.22 | JoshH | i think its just HR |
| 06:10.46 | Hhhhh | well, I think some companies list requirements that axceed what they need to filter some of the crap-applications |
| 06:10.55 | flyboy^ | There are some pretty lame companies out there for sure. |
| 06:10.56 | Hhhhh | but flyboy^ prefers to take care of the crap himself |
| 06:10.57 | Hhhhh | :) |
| 06:11.07 | Hhhhh | i'd love to recruit |
| 06:11.08 | JoshH | jlp: google? i remember you talking about interviewing there in #gubug a while back |
| 06:11.09 | jlp | 2.5 months at the last one ... but the new offer was too good to pass up |
| 06:11.18 | jlp | google offered me a job, but I haven't taken it yet |
| 06:11.28 | jlp | I just can't see myself moving to california |
| 06:11.36 | Newsome | that is a drawback |
| 06:11.40 | JoshH | lol, i understand that |
| 06:11.57 | JoshH | i wouldnt mind some areas of california actually |
| 06:11.59 | jlp | but I got an offer from oakley networks (local) that was only $20k less than the googe offer |
| 06:12.02 | JoshH | utah definitely has its downsides too |
| 06:12.19 | flyboy^ | I LOVE taking in some wet behind the ears kid and ripping him a new one when he can't answer my simple Perl questions when he says he is very experienced with the language. I'm like that guy on American Idol that rips people apart. Don't interview with me. ;) |
| 06:12.20 | Newsome | low pay being one of them |
| 06:12.25 | JoshH | ya |
| 06:12.39 | Hhhhh | lol, flyboy Codwell |
| 06:12.50 | Hhhhh | you should fake some British accent |
| 06:12.52 | Hhhhh | heh |
| 06:12.52 | JoshH | flyboy^: heh, be like "you are absolutely horrible, i am disgusted" |
| 06:12.56 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 06:13.05 | Hhhhh | pa-thetic |
| 06:13.19 | jlp | I was surprised at the offer... they asked me what I was looking for, so I gave them a $10k range (expecting something middle of the road) and they came back with the top end of my range |
| 06:13.30 | jlp | pleasantly surprised :-) |
| 06:13.34 | JoshH | thats good |
| 06:13.35 | Hhhhh | nic |
| 06:13.35 | Newsome | very nice |
| 06:13.36 | Hhhhh | nice |
| 06:13.42 | JoshH | congrats |
| 06:13.42 | flyboy^ | There are some great companies in Utah - especially the SLC area. |
| 06:13.51 | flyboy^ | Very nice paying jobs out there. |
| 06:13.57 | JoshH | lol |
| 06:13.58 | flyboy^ | The market is heating up too. |
| 06:14.00 | JoshH | you might be surprised |
| 06:14.04 | Hhhhh | darn, I should move to SLC |
| 06:14.16 | jlp | fyi, regence will be hiring again |
| 06:14.23 | Hhhhh | but as soon as I graduate, I'm out |
| 06:14.24 | JoshH | its slowly improving |
| 06:14.25 | JoshH | slowly |
| 06:14.35 | jlp | so if you've got aix and slowaris experience, keep an eye out |
| 06:14.47 | flyboy^ | JoshH: 4 weeks ago I had 3 job offers in SLC - all for over 58k/year. |
| 06:14.55 | Hhhhh | nice |
| 06:15.16 | JoshH | flyboy^: what companies? |
| 06:16.12 | flyboy^ | JoshH: I'm not sure they would appriciate me advertising their needs in a public place. I'll mention that the recruiters from Vado have been busy. ;) |
| 06:16.32 | jlp | ahh, that would be cadence, then :-) |
| 06:16.50 | JoshH | i think ive seen some vado ads actually |
| 06:16.58 | JoshH | maybe on one of the lug lists, i dont recall exactly |
| 06:16.59 | jlp | vado is pretty good to work with |
| 06:17.02 | flyboy^ | Cadence looks like one great company. |
| 06:17.14 | jlp | cadence sucks, to put it mildly |
| 06:17.26 | jlp | cadence can't decide what they're doing |
| 06:17.28 | flyboy^ | Well, perhaps that explains the high saleries. |
| 06:17.35 | JoshH | how would you put it harshly? |
| 06:17.41 | jlp | heh heh |
| 06:17.48 | jlp | I can't say that on a family channel :-) |
| 06:18.12 | Hhhhh | as for me: http://www.epicgames.com/epic_jobs.html |
| 06:18.17 | jlp | I'm assuming they're hiring for the gridmatrix project? |
| 06:18.35 | JoshH | Hhhhh: awesome |
| 06:19.02 | Hhhhh | they're always recruiting |
| 06:19.03 | flyboy^ | Well, now you know who to ask about jobs. (jlp *caugh*). |
| 06:19.14 | Hhhhh | after I graduate, i think i'll make a good candidate |
| 06:19.52 | flyboy^ | After you get some experience at the elusive companies that require experience before they give you any, THEN you'll go places. :) hehe |
| 06:20.07 | jlp | yeah, that's how it is |
| 06:20.18 | jlp | couple of years ago, if you had experience, you couldn't get a job |
| 06:20.59 | jlp | well, they wanted people with experience, but weren't willing to pay for it |
| 06:21.35 | flyboy^ | Recently an IT guy told me that he likes to hire inexperienced people so he can teach them what he wants them to know without having to fight about his wrong ideas. :) |
| 06:21.50 | jlp | heh, I interviewed at a place like that once |
| 06:21.54 | jlp | usana |
| 06:22.10 | flyboy^ | MLM folk - now that is a strange camp IMHO. |
| 06:22.22 | jlp | "hmm, we're looking to hire someone that our existing admin can mentor. I think if we hired you, it would be the other way around" |
| 06:22.22 | flyboy^ | nepotisim city. |
| 06:22.36 | JoshH | lol |
| 06:23.00 | Maquis | flyboy^: isn't that why people hire interns? to teach them what they wnat them to know, and not have to fight? |
| 06:23.22 | flyboy^ | Maquis: How many people have time/money for interns these days? |
| 06:23.30 | jlp | cadence :-) |
| 06:23.32 | Hhhhh | Novell does |
| 06:23.36 | flyboy^ | They come in and down load MP3s all day. :) |
| 06:23.45 | Maquis | flyboy^: enough for me |
| 06:23.53 | jlp | we had three or four |
| 06:23.56 | Maquis | flyboy^: well, in that case, you've got the wrong interns |
| 06:24.08 | jlp | made 'em do qa |
| 06:24.12 | flyboy^ | I'm just joshing, internships are great. |
| 06:24.13 | jlp | great fun |
| 06:24.14 | Maquis | my bosses from the past 3 summers were begging me to come back |
| 06:24.30 | flyboy^ | We haven't seen to many applicants with intern experience though. Which we were really hoping for. |
| 06:24.39 | flyboy^ | At least none they listed. |
| 06:24.40 | Maquis | i've got a position there if i'm interested when i graduate... |
| 06:24.49 | Newsome | very nice |
| 06:24.51 | jlp | I don't think there's a lot of internships around here |
| 06:24.52 | Maquis | i'd take it a bit more seriously if it weren't VB/ASP |
| 06:24.59 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 06:25.01 | Newsome | not quite so nice |
| 06:25.04 | Maquis | yeah |
| 06:25.25 | misterpull | maquis: money is money... |
| 06:25.29 | Hhhhh | I don't like ASP VBScript |
| 06:25.30 | Maquis | so, i told them no for this summer and found somplace else (which pays significantly better and is going to let me work with linux) |
| 06:25.42 | misterpull | if the pay is right, dev in your language of choice on the side |
| 06:25.42 | jlp | misterpull: spoken like a contractor :-) |
| 06:26.06 | misterpull | spoken like a sysadmin that spends more time with windows despite liking *nix more :) |
| 06:26.06 | Maquis | misterpull: my guess is that VB is not the highest-paying language though... |
| 06:26.09 | Hhhhh | i agree with misterpull though |
| 06:26.16 | flyboy^ | My opinion is follow the money, up to a point, but follow the money. |
| 06:26.38 | Hhhhh | i'm doing C# right now, great language, but I don't like ASP.NET |
| 06:26.53 | misterpull | probably not, but given the choice between a language I don't like and no job... |
| 06:26.54 | Hhhhh | or at least the paradigm that M$ is trying to introduce with ASP.NET |
| 06:26.59 | misterpull | it is an easy choice :) |
| 06:27.03 | Maquis | Hhhhh: you ever do vb6 or straight asp? |
| 06:27.15 | Hhhhh | asp |
| 06:27.25 | Hhhhh | ASP.NET now though |
| 06:27.37 | Hhhhh | whic is good and bad |
| 06:27.49 | Hhhhh | in a way |
| 06:28.01 | Hhhhh | and in a way is better and worse than ASP |
| 06:28.08 | Hhhhh | the old ASP |
| 06:28.10 | jlp | although I did the windows port of gridmatrix for cadence :-) |
| 06:28.19 | jlp | all perl, though |
| 06:28.57 | jlp | I found windows very difficult to get things to work the way I wanted |
| 06:29.10 | jlp | as though the OS conspires to make things more difficult |
| 06:29.15 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 06:29.38 | Hhhhh | it is true that in a lot of things is more cumbersome |
| 06:29.41 | Hhhhh | like MFC, lol |
| 06:29.42 | flyboy^ | Maybe if you put out some $$$ for some fancy development environment it would behave. |
| 06:29.44 | fishyfire | why did you get up soo early? |
| 06:31.21 | flyboy^ | early, that reminds me. Night folks - nice chawing the cud/fat/etc with y'all. |
| 06:31.44 | jlp | yeah, me too... back to lurk mode |
| 06:31.50 | jlp | lurk mode engaged |
| 06:35.44 | xbmodder | ? |
| 06:36.15 | xbmodder | UUG elections? |
| 06:36.21 | xbmodder | vote Maquis |
| 06:36.40 | xbmodder | how do i do this? |
| 06:36.56 | xbmodder | Maquis, i have been awake for 24+ hours |
| 06:44.04 | *** join/#utah dawithers (~dawithers@128.187.245.34) |
| 07:04.29 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 07:14.59 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 07:15.47 | Maquis | fishyfire: homework |
| 07:46.28 | *** join/#utah xbmodder-oldlapp (~xbmodder@adsl-67-117-130-251.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 07:46.30 | xbmodder-oldlapp | hey |
| 07:46.35 | xbmodder-oldlapp | sup all? |
| 07:47.29 | xbmodder-oldlapp | lucy in the sky with daimond |
| 08:31.40 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 11:13.48 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 13:07.43 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 13:21.22 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 13:42.18 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 13:44.30 | *** join/#utah usynic (~synic@c-67-172-242-219.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 14:01.49 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@thelances.net) |
| 14:20.14 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@207.141.37.66) |
| 14:23.17 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@71.32.228.156) |
| 14:31.04 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog@166.70.34.182) |
| 14:49.00 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (~bbeattie@65.89.233.20) |
| 14:54.41 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 14:57.10 | xbmodder-oldlapp | ~say #utah will die |
| 14:57.13 | ibot | #utah will die |
| 14:59.05 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 14:59.11 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 14:59.33 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 15:17.15 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@64.50.35.114.2O7.net) |
| 16:11.19 | goozbach | how do you not accept credit cards as a fast food joint? |
| 16:11.53 | bonez39 | goozbach: what fastfood joint didn't accept your card? |
| 16:14.09 | goozbach | arby's |
| 16:15.40 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 16:17.16 | lukfugl | hey, Jayce^, you got time to answer a few more Inline.pm questions? |
| 16:23.27 | tensai | goozbach: margins are so thin at a fast food place that the extra 3% or whatever can make a huge difference |
| 16:23.45 | tensai | that said, I avoid places that don't take cards so they've lost out on my business entirely |
| 16:24.30 | tensai | mmm... arby's |
| 16:24.39 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, not sure how much I could help with it right now :) haven't used it in a while |
| 16:25.21 | lukfugl | I just had a problem with the make dying when trying to find the 'MyPackage.inl' file |
| 16:25.25 | Newsome | Jayce^: why hold back? :) |
| 16:25.28 | synic | any postfix users? How can I set up space quotas? |
| 16:26.04 | lukfugl | I found a work around on the London PM list, they seem to be claiming it's a make bug |
| 16:26.06 | Bradipo | Jayce^: Don't give in to the Dark Side or forever will it guide your destiny. |
| 16:28.59 | Jayce^ | Newsome, a) I've never attended BYU, so can't influence that much :) |
| 16:29.11 | Jayce^ | b) I would say things that would get me banned :) |
| 16:30.35 | tensai | for those of us who gave up on the uug mailing list, what's the hoopla this time? |
| 16:34.16 | Jayce^ | tensai, stuart left |
| 16:34.33 | Jayce^ | so *more* people are suggesting a forum, since there are free php ones!!! (imagine that) |
| 16:34.50 | Jayce^ | and of course, that will get rid of all those trimming problems, and will allow for moderation |
| 16:35.00 | Jayce^ | and people *like* lists, because they are cool html |
| 16:35.03 | *** join/#utah bzob_ (~bzob@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 16:36.18 | hans | hehe. if they go to a forum, I want the statistics. I predict without doubt that participation will drop like a rock. |
| 16:36.21 | Bradipo | That discussion again eh... |
| 16:36.44 | Bradipo | hans: I would give the same prediction, but for different reasons. |
| 16:37.11 | hans | these 3com managed switches talk slirp over their serial interface. what kind of messed up is that? |
| 16:37.13 | Bradipo | The participation would appear to drop, but in reality it would be the volume that had changed due to no more flame wars about timming, quoting, etc... |
| 16:37.39 | hans | so you think it's a good thing? |
| 16:37.43 | Bradipo | No. |
| 16:38.05 | Bradipo | I would much prefer an email mailing list over a web based forum. |
| 16:38.30 | levi | hans: Whoa. I haven't seen slirp upsed since my early BYU days. ;) |
| 16:38.33 | Bradipo | And I was also being somewhat facetious. :-) |
| 16:38.50 | hans | oic. :) |
| 16:39.13 | hans | I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do assuming I can figure out how to make the slirp connection. telnet in? |
| 16:39.37 | levi | Maybe a web interface? |
| 16:39.56 | levi | All the cool gadgets have web interfaces these days. |
| 16:40.26 | tensai | but none of them run over slirp either so I doubt it's a web ui |
| 16:40.33 | tensai | my guess is telnet |
| 16:41.05 | hans | I think these are old. not really old, but they have been discontinued by 3com |
| 16:41.44 | levi | Why would telnet work and not http? |
| 16:42.04 | hans | they actually do have a web interface. I bet it would work. I'd just as soon use telnet to set up its IP though. |
| 16:42.42 | tensai | http certainly could work but it seems like the people who would design a system to use slirp would choose telnet |
| 16:42.45 | levi | It just seems very odd to have a text-mode interface that you have to establish an IP connection to use instead of just using a straight serial connection. |
| 16:42.57 | tensai | yeah, that's a good point too |
| 16:42.59 | hans | levi: right, my thoughts |
| 16:43.12 | hans | maybe they do it this way to make the web interface available for people that don't want to give it an IP address. |
| 16:43.16 | hans | seems silly though |
| 16:43.40 | tensai | I like serial consoles. what's wrong with telnet? |
| 16:44.01 | hans | nothing. the stumbling block is slirp |
| 16:45.53 | brailsmt | serial consoles are a pain... though it should be noted, that I don't do admin work... |
| 16:46.19 | hans | nah, they're cool |
| 16:46.45 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 16:47.32 | levi | Serial consoles are nice, especially if they're all connected via a concentrator and you can telnet to them instead of juggling serial cables. |
| 16:47.42 | Bradipo | brailsmt: Poorly implemented serial interfaces are a pain. |
| 16:47.49 | Bradipo | The Cisco serial port works just fine. |
| 16:48.24 | Bradipo | hans: Does the documentation say it uses slirp? |
| 16:49.03 | Bradipo | If so, that is a pain. |
| 16:49.24 | hans | I'm still trying to make sense of the documentation. apparently the CD that comes with the switch has some web-based (probably java) slip thing for w95 |
| 16:49.38 | hans | doesn't mention w2k or higher, guess that dates it. |
| 16:49.39 | brailsmt | we are currently working on a big project replacing a bunch of arulas with cyclades serial consoles |
| 16:49.58 | brailsmt | err... |
| 16:50.01 | brailsmt | serial console servers |
| 16:52.19 | hans | but then it says this: "You can access the command line interface using: |
| 16:52.20 | Maquis | Bradipo: i agree about wanting a mailing-list over a forum... |
| 16:52.34 | hans | A terminal or terminal emulator connected to the console port of a Switch directly, or through a modem |
| 16:52.46 | hans | A terminal or terminal emulator connected to a switch over an IP network using telnet" |
| 16:52.55 | hans | which makes me think it will not need slip |
| 16:52.56 | levi | Maquis for prez: she'll keep the list! ;) |
| 16:53.01 | hans | so I'm basically confused. |
| 16:53.18 | levi | Sounds confusing. |
| 16:53.20 | hans | just hook up a null modem and run minicom, right? that didn't work. |
| 16:53.24 | levi | Why are you using the old piece of hardware? |
| 16:53.41 | hans | it's already here. I didn't realize they were managed until yesterday |
| 16:53.54 | Maquis | levi: i honestly think that this is a passing fad with a newbie who doesn't know what he's talking about... |
| 16:54.06 | levi | Probably. |
| 16:54.12 | hans | probably an avatar-loving newbie |
| 16:54.24 | Maquis | i might consider giving them their "trial" period... just for the sake of proving that it won't work... |
| 16:54.24 | Jayce^ | Maquis, most newbs think like that |
| 16:54.29 | Maquis | or at least putting it up to a poll |
| 16:54.34 | levi | Maquis: I'm not really terribly interested, since I left the UUG list a long time ago. I found the manner of sjansen's departure amusing, though. |
| 16:54.38 | tensai | somebody needs to tell him that if he can't think like everybody else then he's not welcome |
| 16:54.45 | hans | how did sjansen leave? |
| 16:54.47 | Jayce^ | they tend to have entered the internet in the 'web' phase.. having not grown up with news/lists |
| 16:54.51 | Maquis | tensai: hahaha |
| 16:55.29 | tensai | <accent type="crazy russian">No list for you!</accent> |
| 16:55.36 | levi | hans: http://uug.byu.edu/pipermail/uug-list/2005-April/017363.html |
| 16:56.33 | hans | shoot, I didn't follow tradition. I just slipped away. sometimes I wonder if anyone noticed. |
| 16:56.36 | Jayce^ | bah, it's just the uug, which is built on high turnover |
| 16:56.37 | Maquis | especially during my stint as mailing-list coordinator... |
| 16:56.52 | Jayce^ | hans, nah, 'cause your still with plug, which is what people care about :) |
| 16:57.17 | hans | yeah, they get their fill of me from plug. :) |
| 16:57.23 | Maquis | they're just so far away... |
| 16:57.30 | hans | those that subscribe to both |
| 16:57.35 | Jayce^ | Maquis, true, too far south :) |
| 16:57.37 | brailsmt | i won't be coming to plug anytime soon... :) |
| 16:57.39 | hans | which are probably the only ones who even remember me |
| 16:57.56 | Maquis | Jayce^: i'm not exactly sure where it's located... which is probably a good portion of the problem... |
| 16:58.03 | Maquis | i know that it's across the street from sco... |
| 16:58.04 | Jayce^ | across the street from SCO :) |
| 16:58.07 | Maquis | but i don't know where that is either |
| 16:58.12 | hans | lindon |
| 16:58.23 | brailsmt | by the home depot |
| 16:58.29 | Maquis | hans: i know that much..... but where is lindon from provo? |
| 16:58.33 | brailsmt | north |
| 16:58.39 | levi | The uug archives don't go back far enough to record my departure. |
| 16:58.42 | brailsmt | its just north of orem |
| 16:58.45 | hans | north |
| 16:59.07 | hans | daggone it, google maps is still borked. |
| 16:59.09 | brailsmt | Maquis: ever been to los hermanos up north of orem? that is lindon |
| 16:59.10 | hans | this can't be normal. |
| 16:59.20 | Maquis | brailsmt: the one on center street? |
| 16:59.21 | levi | hans: It was /.ed! |
| 16:59.29 | Maquis | or whatever street that is? |
| 16:59.43 | hans | Maquis: no on state streetn north of orem |
| 16:59.48 | brailsmt | yeah, get on center and keep going north... |
| 16:59.50 | hans | orem is north of provo |
| 16:59.57 | Maquis | hans: nope... |
| 17:00.19 | brailsmt | Maquis: yeah it is |
| 17:00.39 | brailsmt | :) |
| 17:00.40 | Bradipo | I'm reading this thread... |
| 17:00.50 | Bradipo | There are a lot of people on UUG that can't spell. |
| 17:00.52 | Maquis | brailsmt: ??? |
| 17:00.57 | brailsmt | !!! |
| 17:00.57 | Maquis | Bradipo: yes... there are |
| 17:01.07 | Bradipo | My appologies... and so figgured... |
| 17:01.07 | brailsmt | no teher arne't |
| 17:01.08 | Maquis | the best is if you look for anything by DNA... |
| 17:01.40 | Maquis | the DNA guy had an entire email talking about his problems installing susie on a petium |
| 17:02.11 | Bradipo | lol |
| 17:02.23 | Bradipo | On a petium puter? |
| 17:02.35 | levi | Hah, I found older uug-discuss archives. |
| 17:02.38 | brailsmt | > |
| 17:02.39 | brailsmt | > I went to the bzflag website and can't figure out |
| 17:02.40 | brailsmt | > which version to downtown for my ubuntu linux. |
| 17:02.41 | brailsmt | lol |
| 17:02.47 | levi | Here's where I was elected pres: http://www.mail-archive.com/uug-discuss@clubs.byu.edu/msg01995.html |
| 17:03.07 | Bradipo | Moroni was still there? |
| 17:05.45 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@c-67-177-47-220.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:06.32 | hans | ok, so if I hook up a null modem cable from the laptop to the workstation and run minicom on both, and set both to 9600 8-n-1 |
| 17:06.44 | hans | should I be able to see what I type on one, on the other? |
| 17:06.56 | lukfugl | ~lart vontrapp |
| 17:07.35 | Maquis | vontrapp: don't worry about it |
| 17:07.35 | tensai | ~lart devotionals |
| 17:07.53 | levi | hans: I'd guess that yes, you should. |
| 17:08.01 | lukfugl | I'm ->||<- this close to leaving myself, though I'd do it quietly |
| 17:08.23 | Jayce^ | yeah, I've just had an account there for announcements, group stuff |
| 17:08.44 | lukfugl | I've always been mostly a lurker anyways |
| 17:08.55 | hans | Jayce^: at least with a forum, you wouldn't have to follow the list to interject announcements. |
| 17:09.14 | levi | Hrm, I can't find my list departure in that archive, either. |
| 17:14.36 | *** join/#utah bzob__ (~bzob@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 17:19.05 | brailsmt | hans: afaik, running minicom on the server won't help you |
| 17:20.55 | brailsmt | ie, at least i know that to enable serial console on a linux machine you need to a getty on /dev/ttyS0 (assuming that is the right device) |
| 17:21.11 | brailsmt | i have used mingetty in the past |
| 17:21.31 | brailsmt | but if the older box is a unix, then it may different... |
| 17:22.05 | levi | Two minicoms should show a character pressed on one keyboard show up in the other computer's minicom. |
| 17:22.08 | brailsmt | i know its different for a solaris box... |
| 17:23.12 | brailsmt | anyway, i just exhausted all i know about serial ports... |
| 17:26.02 | hans | ah, there we go |
| 17:26.16 | hans | apparently this port is ttyS1. that'll do it. |
| 17:26.37 | hans | for the record, you can see what's typed in one minicom on the other (but no local echo unless you've turned that on with c-a e) |
| 17:42.26 | levi | That's what I meant to say, but my sentence got mangled somewhere in its transmission to my fingers. |
| 17:47.16 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~JoshH@firebat.aros.net) |
| 18:03.18 | *** join/#utah bzob (~bzob@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 18:03.36 | *** join/#utah beandog (~sdibb@64.50.56.200) |
| 18:05.00 | hans | how do users forget a password that they use every single day? |
| 18:05.02 | hans | what is with that? |
| 18:05.39 | beandog | Thats why I use 'password' |
| 18:05.44 | beandog | Even if I forget, I can guess. |
| 18:06.03 | *** join/#utah bzob_ (~bzob@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 18:06.22 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@c-67-177-47-220.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:12.11 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-67-161-242-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:24.30 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@207.108.169.214) |
| 19:08.51 | *** join/#utah dw|w (~dataw0lf@66.219.227.114) |
| 19:14.56 | brailsmt | today is going by sloooowly |
| 19:19.53 | dw|w | anyone use LDAP with their MTA ? |
| 19:25.48 | synic | brailsmt: agreed. |
| 19:27.01 | *** join/#utah wps_ (~wps@207.108.169.214) |
| 19:30.39 | brailsmt | is it possible to use different CSS based on browser window size? |
| 19:30.39 | synic | ibot: seen torriem |
| 19:30.44 | ibot | torriem <~torriem@c-67-177-53-78.client.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 10d 16h 37m 53s ago, saying: 'hey mhalcrow'. |
| 19:42.46 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 19:42.52 | *** join/#utah hans (fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 19:51.38 | *** join/#utah scott (scott@crackaddict.com) |
| 19:59.41 | vontrapp | dw|w: hans uses ldap with postfix |
| 19:59.47 | vontrapp | right, hans? |
| 20:00.19 | dw|w | the network I just took over is using OpenLDAP and NIS with Sendmail. |
| 20:00.31 | dw|w | and, honestly, I haven't worked with LDAP much. |
| 20:03.44 | vontrapp | any color savvys: what's a good contrast to dark blue? |
| 20:04.18 | dw|w | vontrapp, http://colormixers.com/mixers/cmr/ |
| 20:19.11 | vontrapp | dw|w: thanks, that's pretty cool |
| 20:21.22 | dw|w | vontrapp: no problem, it's great when you're doing some artsy stuff and you have absolutely no artistic bend. |
| 20:21.48 | dw|w | well, I categorize 'matching colors' (and clothes, much to my girlfriend's dismay) as 'artsy stuff' |
| 20:22.05 | vontrapp | haha |
| 20:24.02 | dw|w | ;) |
| 20:32.58 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@71.32.228.156) |
| 20:35.36 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@jamestkirk.byu.edu) |
| 20:36.42 | mrpull | http://faktory.org/m/blog/archives/2005/04/04/strange-ntp-services/ |
| 20:36.46 | mrpull | that is a fun story :) |
| 20:39.40 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 20:43.42 | *** join/#utah markl_ (mark@dsl093-225-013.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:48.39 | tensai | dw|w: I use LDAP with my MTAs, specifically Exim and Courier |
| 20:49.17 | dw|w | I'm just looking for a bit of clarification on the OpenLDAP side, since I just took over this network, and really haven't had a chance to talk to the old admin. |
| 20:53.49 | tensai | sounds like me about a year ago |
| 20:54.02 | hans | hrmm. whenever I try to use slip it messes up the serial port. only way I've figured to get it back is to reboot. anyone know a more acceptable way to recover it? rmmod slip doesn't help. |
| 20:54.18 | hans | i use ldap with postfix, yes. |
| 21:00.38 | vontrapp | how do i explicitly restore a vim .swp? |
| 21:00.44 | hans | \vim -r |
| 21:00.49 | hans | without the |
| 21:00.50 | hans | \ |
| 21:01.16 | vontrapp | thx |
| 21:05.38 | tensai | anybody heard of Ecelerity before? |
| 21:06.14 | Newsome | Arthur Anderson change their name again? |
| 21:07.49 | tensai | it's an MTA from Omniti, who I've also never heard of before |
| 21:11.43 | hans | so for those keeping score, these 3com switches do talk regular serial just like you'd expect. I imagine the SLIP thing was a slirp-like thing for windows users to use with their nifty CD. IOW they are too clever for their own good and weren't clear about it in the docs. |
| 21:17.54 | brailsmt | anybody have a really fast computer they can give me? I'm taking p4 or opteron with a great graphics card... |
| 21:23.03 | levi | hans: So, you can initiate the SLIP thing via the serial CLI? |
| 21:24.53 | bucky | brailsmt, build yourself one |
| 21:26.12 | hans | levi: must be something like that. you're supposed to use some java plugin that comes with the CD that comes with the switch. |
| 21:47.35 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:50.21 | mheath | Hmm. Would their be any advantages to using DistCC over using OpenMosix and properly setting up the build process for multiple procs? |
| 21:52.32 | Newsome | it's less invasive |
| 21:54.08 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@byu147137wks.byu.edu) |
| 21:56.39 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@c-67-161-219-228.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:58.40 | mheath | Well, I'm using diskless, network-booted cluster nodes. Ivasiveness isn't really an issue.... |
| 21:58.47 | mheath | I'm talking speed/efficiency |
| 21:59.09 | vontrapp | some wonderful person put together a nice khmer keyboard layout, with a nice install to put it in the /usr/X11/.../blah places |
| 21:59.23 | vontrapp | it's incredibly awesome |
| 21:59.39 | vontrapp | setxkbmap -layout kh switches to the layout |
| 22:00.03 | vontrapp | only problem i have is once i'm in the kh layout, I can't really do anything but type khmer |
| 22:00.15 | vontrapp | i.e. i can't type commands or anything |
| 22:00.27 | vontrapp | hot keys don't work with khmer either |
| 22:00.41 | vontrapp | so i'm trying to come up with some clever way of switching back and forth |
| 22:00.49 | vontrapp | must use the keyboard, though |
| 22:01.05 | vontrapp | i don't want to have to reach for the mouse each time i need to get back to us |
| 22:01.31 | vontrapp | as switches will more oft than not be just a quick switch to type a word or two of khmer |
| 22:02.09 | vontrapp | hmm, maybe... |
| 22:02.31 | bucky | New Flash: |
| 22:03.06 | bucky | Tomorrow is the End of the World |
| 22:03.22 | Newsome | cool |
| 22:04.32 | bucky | http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_095145146.html |
| 22:04.35 | levi | What time, though? I want to know if I'll miss my show. |
| 22:04.49 | vontrapp | nope, grr |
| 22:05.00 | hans | you have a show? |
| 22:05.28 | levi | Going to see Stomp tomorrow evening. |
| 22:05.32 | vontrapp | numbers, punctuation, letters, _everything_ is remapped |
| 22:05.42 | hans | ooh, that would be a cool show |
| 22:05.49 | hans | vontrapp: even scroll lock? |
| 22:05.53 | hans | f12? |
| 22:06.00 | vontrapp | this may mean the end of icewm for me if some other manager can be smarter about hotkeys |
| 22:06.09 | hans | fvwm :) |
| 22:06.13 | bucky | levi, i think that show will precipitate the end of the world |
| 22:06.28 | hans | all modifiers? |
| 22:06.38 | bucky | it will be the epicenter |
| 22:06.40 | Jayce^ | levi, you get decent tickets? when I checked it was just the crap seats left |
| 22:06.44 | levi | bucky: As long as it doesn't end before the end of the show. I paid a lot of money for the tickets! |
| 22:06.50 | bucky | lol |
| 22:06.50 | vontrapp | no, modifiers aren't changed |
| 22:06.53 | levi | Jayce^: I have front-row seats. |
| 22:06.54 | vontrapp | i don't think |
| 22:07.02 | hans | so erasure is already sold out, but sting which is just a couple of days away is not |
| 22:07.03 | vontrapp | modifiers modify to get different characters |
| 22:07.16 | hans | levi: watch out, they'll drop something and hit you |
| 22:07.21 | levi | Jayce^: A friend of mine does group buys at the beginning of each season. |
| 22:07.25 | hans | hopefully not one of those big steel drum boots |
| 22:07.59 | Jayce^ | hans, yeah, saw that sell-out, nice to see that |
| 22:08.37 | levi | What are the respective venues and their capacity for the two shows? |
| 22:08.46 | levi | Erasure is at Abravanel, right? |
| 22:08.53 | Jayce^ | no, kingsbury |
| 22:08.59 | Jayce^ | where is sting? |
| 22:09.01 | levi | Ahh, okay. |
| 22:09.04 | Jayce^ | delta? |
| 22:09.07 | levi | Ew! |
| 22:09.15 | Jayce^ | yeah, selling out kingsbury isn't that big :) |
| 22:09.21 | levi | I'd never go to a concert at the Delta Center. |
| 22:09.29 | hans | that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. |
| 22:09.50 | levi | I saw Moby at Kingsbury. |
| 22:09.56 | hans | I broke the first law of comparison. My stats teacher would shoot me. |
| 22:10.02 | levi | The crappy thing about Kingsbury is the seats aren't offset. |
| 22:10.18 | Jayce^ | havne't been to a concert at kingsbury before, the seats worry me |
| 22:10.26 | bucky | I saw Moby on the Late Late show last night |
| 22:11.05 | levi | Hybrid was supposed to open for Moby, but they had equipment problems so they just did a DJ set. Wasn't too bad, but I was a huge Hybrid fan at the time and wanted to hear their stuff. |
| 22:12.06 | levi | I want to slap the person silly who decided not to offset the seats at Kingsbury when they remodeled it. |
| 22:15.22 | vontrapp | so what i need is the ability to map a hotkey to a unicode value? |
| 22:16.23 | vontrapp | or maybe a vim macro |
| 22:16.45 | vontrapp | and a clicky button just in case i ever enter kh without a vim |
| 22:18.39 | beandog | Is there a console spreadsheet app, I wonder |
| 22:18.45 | bucky | "Hybrid, caught many people off guard with their sci-fi beats and soothing rhythms throughout their captivating forty-five minute set. These two acts offered the audience a glimpse into the post rock movement by showing them the future of music to come. |
| 22:21.55 | bucky | Super Dell is on tv again.. time to change the channel |
| 22:22.18 | dw|w | Hurry, before you're infected with the Gay. |
| 22:22.19 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:24.06 | beandog | Geez |
| 22:24.11 | beandog | Why cant gnumeric just SAVE the file as it IS |
| 22:25.20 | levi | bucky: What was that quote from? |
| 22:25.27 | bucky | letsee |
| 22:25.49 | bucky | http://www.hybrid-group.com/moby.asp |
| 22:26.02 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 22:28.17 | levi | Heh, 'chuffed as budgies' |
| 22:28.57 | bucky | that's a pretty neat site over all |
| 22:31.17 | levi | Doesn't look like Hybrid has released anything of their own lately. |
| 22:31.38 | bucky | i'm looking at the discussion board |
| 22:31.54 | bucky | a re-mix has been released apparently |
| 22:33.00 | vontrapp | hans: how would I map ESC in vim to run some command then do the regular ESC thing? |
| 22:33.08 | hans | good luck |
| 22:33.16 | hans | do you want me to bring my vim book home? |
| 22:33.17 | vontrapp | :( what do you mean? |
| 22:33.27 | hans | I mean I don't know and can't look it up today |
| 22:34.08 | vontrapp | ok then, what :he page should i start with? |
| 22:34.31 | hans | map probably |
| 22:39.32 | bucky | Oprah is better than Super Dell |
| 22:41.44 | vontrapp | :map <ESC> <ESC>:!setxkbmap -layout us<CR><CR> |
| 22:41.48 | vontrapp | w00t |
| 22:41.50 | vontrapp | !! |
| 22:42.15 | hans | what if vim isn't running though? :) |
| 22:42.47 | vontrapp | then i have a fallback button to click on on my toolbar |
| 22:45.41 | beandog | wtf is up with these office apps |
| 22:45.47 | beandog | I hate how they always assume things for you |
| 22:46.00 | hans | that's their job |
| 22:46.17 | beandog | How the heck do I edit a CSV file and NOT reformat the freaking thing |
| 22:46.22 | beandog | Aside from using vim |
| 22:46.24 | hans | with vim of course |
| 22:47.42 | beandog | I havent met a spreadsheet editor yet that can do that |
| 22:47.51 | beandog | Gnumeric comes close, but it makes you choose your format every freaking time you save it. |
| 22:55.24 | brailsmt | wtf would you want to map <esc> in vim!?! |
| 22:55.41 | brailsmt | might as well 'rm ld' while your at it... |
| 22:56.39 | hans | brailsmt: so that he can use vim |
| 22:56.45 | hans | after remapping to khmer |
| 22:56.51 | brailsmt | how about "sort /boot/bzImage > /boot/bzImage" |
| 22:57.11 | brailsmt | what is khmer? |
| 22:57.12 | hans | brailsmt: you should hav elearend by now that that's the same as ">/boot/bzImage" |
| 22:57.15 | hans | Cambodian. |
| 22:57.43 | brailsmt | hans: what? |
| 22:57.57 | brailsmt | i guess i haven't learned that by now... |
| 22:58.25 | hans | well, I guess it depends on how sort reads |
| 22:58.40 | hans | usually if you > to something, it is done right at the beginning and you end up with a truncated file. |
| 22:58.47 | hans | if it's also the input file. |
| 23:00.14 | brailsmt | i know, but i figured since the goal was to hose it up in the first place, truncating it wouldn't matter :D |
| 23:01.24 | brailsmt | it was a nightmare to get one page xhtml compliant... |
| 23:01.46 | vontrapp | សខ្ម <- that's khmer |
| 23:02.01 | brailsmt | ^-- thats line noise |
| 23:02.04 | brailsmt | :) |
| 23:04.25 | vontrapp | now if only fonts displayed property |
| 23:04.33 | vontrapp | s/property/properly/ |
| 23:05.21 | vontrapp | ^- heh, that has double meaning |
| 23:09.02 | beandog | lols brailsmt |
| 23:13.34 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 23:19.33 | Maquis | hmmm.. |
| 23:19.41 | Maquis | mutt seems to be having trouble sending mail today |
| 23:19.51 | Maquis | it sits there, saying it's sending, but not actually ever finishing |
| 23:20.31 | bucky | bad dog! |
| 23:25.23 | *** part/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 23:27.29 | Maquis | says it can't open gmail's smtp port |
| 23:28.15 | Maquis | but now it work |
| 23:28.15 | Maquis | s |
| 23:28.36 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 23:30.04 | vontrapp | fonts are retarded |
| 23:30.16 | sjansen | fonts are just collections of bits |
| 23:30.19 | vontrapp | what's more, the way things use them is retarted |
| 23:30.36 | sjansen | who's to blame? the font or you? |
| 23:31.11 | sjansen | When did she aquire a definite article? |
| 23:32.12 | vontrapp | hopefully things will get better |
| 23:32.16 | vontrapp | and quickly |
| 23:32.47 | vontrapp | when firefox renders pages, does it do the font rendering itself or delegate that to X? |
| 23:34.05 | vontrapp | say you want some fancy wavy font for english text, but a document also contains korean text |
| 23:34.42 | vontrapp | you have to use a 'font' that has korean glyphs, and if there's no font with korean and your fancy wavys you're out of luck |
| 23:34.51 | vontrapp | the whole system is borken, IMHO |
| 23:35.54 | sjansen | I wouldn't say so. |
| 23:36.02 | vontrapp | one should be able to use one font for one language/range of unicode values |
| 23:36.36 | vontrapp | as it is, i have to get a combodian font that not only has cambodian but everything else imagineable |
| 23:37.24 | vontrapp | cause if i say for unicode i want a certain cambodian-supporting font, and then that font doesn't have chinese, what am i to do when i view a chinese page? |
| 23:37.30 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 23:37.52 | vontrapp | i might have gross misconceptions on how things work, but this is how i understand it |
| 23:41.22 | sjansen | A properly configured system will substitute a font with the required glyphs. |
| 23:42.18 | sjansen | At least pango based version of Firefox do exactly that. |
| 23:45.11 | *** join/#utah findlay (~justin@65.203.174.134) |
| 23:45.34 | vontrapp | but how to configure _which_ font gets substituted? |
| 23:45.45 | sjansen | ah |
| 23:45.46 | findlay | yeah |
| 23:45.52 | sjansen | that I don't know |
| 23:47.02 | vontrapp | but yeah, i didn't know that it would actually substitute, that is somewhat comforting |
| 23:54.23 | vontrapp | *sigh* |
| 23:54.52 | Maquis | yay for robot soccer thursday evening! |