| 00:10.18 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~JoshH@firebat.aros.net) |
| 00:10.58 | sjansen | looks like the google dns problems just made it to us |
| 00:11.36 | sjansen | false alarm, just a tool that horked my network connection |
| 00:13.42 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@c-67-161-219-228.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:13.51 | sjansen | ~hug TCP |
| 00:13.53 | ibot | ACTION hugs TCP |
| 00:14.18 | jsmith | Google DNS problem? |
| 00:14.46 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@sorenson.dsl.csolutions.net) |
| 00:15.03 | jsmith | A co-worker had problems with Google and DNS yesterday, but I haven't seen anything? Coincidence, or am I missing something? |
| 00:17.02 | hans | jsmith: I don't know either. |
| 00:22.48 | *** join/#utah levi_ (~levi@208.177.141.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 00:23.14 | levi_ | Gah, my connection died. |
| 00:23.25 | sjansen | http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2005-03-07&res=l |
| 00:27.08 | tensai | ~resurrect levi's connection |
| 00:28.21 | levi_ | Hrm. My attempts at setting up a reverse proxy are not working quite right. |
| 00:33.09 | Maquis | ~lart headaches |
| 00:35.32 | sjansen | not the best way to deal with a headache |
| 00:37.26 | goozbach | http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com/0192.htm |
| 00:37.55 | Maquis | sjansen: well, at this point.... |
| 00:39.36 | Maquis | goozbach: haha |
| 00:39.38 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~sjk36@128.187.175.59) |
| 00:40.04 | goozbach | I ate a dove bar yesterday... |
| 00:40.12 | goozbach | blue bubbles for an hour |
| 00:40.20 | goozbach | s/blue/blew/ |
| 00:40.36 | Maquis | bubbles??? |
| 00:40.52 | Maquis | reallifecomics is still down???? |
| 00:40.53 | Maquis | :( |
| 00:42.09 | Maquis | http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/shop/html/weasel_poll_results.html |
| 00:42.21 | Maquis | sco didn't win for weaseliest companies :( |
| 00:44.50 | Newsome | Not enough people even know the name SCO |
| 00:45.12 | Newsome | That, or we didn't have a very good showing at dilbert.com |
| 00:45.19 | Maquis | Newsome: yeah... |
| 00:45.35 | Maquis | figgers... but if they were better known, they could've won easily |
| 00:52.00 | *** join/#utah mheath (~Michael@c-67-161-213-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:55.55 | sjansen | mheath: So where can I find a list of hardware likely to work with the Hurd? |
| 00:56.25 | mheath | http://www.nongnu.org/thug/gnumach_hardware.html |
| 00:56.30 | mheath | Though thats a bit outdated |
| 00:56.46 | sjansen | any idea of timeframe for l4? |
| 00:57.02 | mheath | Probably not too long |
| 00:57.12 | mheath | A few months, maybe |
| 00:57.38 | mheath | They're almost to the point where everything from Hurd can simply be used on L4 without many changes from the Mach version |
| 00:57.54 | mheath | You'll see a huge jump in hardware support with L4, too. |
| 00:58.47 | mheath | It's hard to code a driver framework on Mach, whereas it will be easy on L4. |
| 00:59.13 | mheath | Linux hardware drivers should be pretty easy to port even, too. |
| 01:10.41 | *** join/#utah byronc (~byron@209.197.11.63) |
| 01:14.30 | *** join/#utah mooneroid (~mooneroid@jmoon.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 01:29.04 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@byu074602wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 01:36.57 | Maquis | wo de tou teng si le |
| 01:37.48 | sjansen | ~rot13 Maquis |
| 01:37.48 | ibot | Zndhvf |
| 01:38.14 | sjansen | ~rot13 wo de tou teng si le |
| 01:38.14 | ibot | jb qr gbh grat fv yr |
| 01:39.00 | Tene | ~rot13 xlsqbq |
| 01:39.00 | ibot | kyfdod |
| 01:39.14 | goozbach | ~rot13 jb qr gbh grat fv yr |
| 01:39.14 | ibot | wo de tou teng si le |
| 01:39.17 | goozbach | ahh |
| 01:39.27 | Maquis | haha |
| 01:39.42 | Maquis | the direct translation is "my head hurts to death" |
| 01:39.58 | Maquis | well, that's as direct as you can get given that there are words that can't be translated, and such |
| 01:40.15 | Maquis | me de head hurt death le |
| 01:42.42 | mheath | Anyone want to buy a dual Pentium2 server? |
| 01:43.28 | sjansen | price? |
| 01:44.07 | mheath | Well, it's missing most of its case right now, so I'm going to build a new one out of plexiglass... |
| 01:44.11 | mheath | But, around $50? |
| 01:44.32 | sjansen | pass |
| 01:45.01 | mheath | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:45.11 | mheath | I'd *like* to make it rack-mountable |
| 01:45.42 | tensai | 19" wide |
| 01:46.17 | mheath | Well, I don't know where any of the holes for rack mounting go. |
| 01:50.49 | sjansen | on the edge of the case near the rack |
| 01:51.41 | tensai | 4Us normally have rails since something that large is generally pretty heavy |
| 01:55.25 | sjansen | fine, but I'm pretty sure you don't put any hole through the motherboard... well not the interconnects anyway |
| 01:55.48 | sjansen | okay, maybe the interconnects too, but only if you know what you're doing |
| 01:56.04 | sjansen | but whatever you do, DON'T put a hole in the cpu |
| 01:56.15 | sjansen | that doesn't turn out well |
| 01:56.19 | Tene | unless you *really* know what you're doing. |
| 02:07.23 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 02:08.05 | *** join/#utah mrpull- (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:08.49 | Maquis | ~lart tylenol for not workin |
| 02:08.50 | Maquis | g |
| 02:08.56 | sjansen | try aleve |
| 02:09.49 | sjansen | so sleep |
| 02:09.57 | Maquis | i took a nap today |
| 02:10.00 | Maquis | but i don't have time now |
| 02:10.16 | Maquis | tis going to be another late night |
| 02:11.25 | Maquis | at least my roommate gets to pull the late night with me, yet again |
| 02:11.45 | Tene | did you ever discuss light issues with her? |
| 02:12.01 | Maquis | nah... |
| 02:12.20 | Maquis | i got a cool usb led light that she probably won't wake up to, and i want to play with it next time that she's in bed when i'm not |
| 02:12.26 | Maquis | given our recent schedules though... |
| 02:12.57 | Tene | wake up early |
| 02:13.15 | Maquis | well, she fell asleep out in the living room the past two nights |
| 02:13.38 | Maquis | monday night, she was the first to crash |
| 02:13.51 | Maquis | last night, i crashed 2 hours earlier than her |
| 02:13.57 | Maquis | tonight, we'll see |
| 02:15.05 | Lone_Wanderer_ | Anyone know why Special K would have told me to update my chatzilla prefs? |
| 02:16.10 | Maquis | dunno... maybe from a part message... maybe because your ircname is New Now Know How... maybe for some other reason... i dunno |
| 02:16.36 | Lone_Wanderer_ | My ircname is New Now Now How? |
| 02:16.51 | Maquis | yeah |
| 02:17.00 | Maquis | if you do /whois Lone_Wanderer_ that's what it says for name |
| 02:17.04 | Lone_Wanderer_ | It looks like Lone Wanderer to me... |
| 02:17.10 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer_: pay no attention to her, she's experience hallucinations as a result of sleep deprivation |
| 02:17.19 | Lone_Wanderer_ | I was earlier today. |
| 02:17.23 | Tene | don't pay attention to her, pay money to her. |
| 02:17.37 | Maquis | i'll go for that one |
| 02:17.40 | Lone_Wanderer_ | I'd look at some lines of code and it would say things different than what it really said |
| 02:18.03 | Lone_Wanderer_ | so I'd move it around so it would look right to my hallucinating mind, and then realize I'd just messed it up. |
| 02:18.24 | Tene | it took me a long time to find the Functional Requirements Specifications in a filestore yesterday/today. |
| 02:18.31 | Tene | (couldn't find at all yesterday) |
| 02:18.50 | Maquis | and Tene was good company monday night |
| 02:18.51 | Tene | turns out they were in the folder named "Functional Requirements Specifications" in the root of the filestore |
| 02:18.54 | Maquis | tuesday morning... |
| 02:19.02 | Tene | thanks, M. |
| 02:19.08 | Tene | if you ever need company, lemme know |
| 02:19.14 | Tene | I'm usually near my computer. |
| 02:19.24 | Lone_Wanderer | I will! |
| 02:19.27 | Tene | I really hope not me. |
| 02:19.34 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: have you slept yet? |
| 02:19.36 | Tene | I was up 'til six or so last night |
| 02:19.39 | Lone_Wanderer | oh yes, several hours |
| 02:19.44 | Maquis | good |
| 02:19.45 | Tene | 'cause I forgot my meds yesterday |
| 02:20.38 | Maquis | sjansen: it's something to do to take my mind off of the fact that i'm not smart enough to do my homework |
| 02:21.13 | Maquis | or, in monday-night's case, it was something to do so that i wouldn't fall asleep while repeatedly copying chinese characters |
| 02:21.18 | Tene | Maquis: make sjansen do it for you. |
| 02:21.30 | Maquis | been there, done that... :) |
| 02:21.38 | Lone_Wanderer | you're learning Chinese? |
| 02:21.43 | Maquis | yeah |
| 02:21.52 | Lone_Wanderer | that's cool |
| 02:22.03 | Maquis | actually, it's just crazy |
| 02:22.07 | Lone_Wanderer | are the characters different for Mandarin than they are for Cantonese? |
| 02:22.19 | Maquis | characters are the same |
| 02:22.25 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 02:22.52 | Tene | æ |
| 02:23.27 | Tene | it does |
| 02:23.30 | Tene | but your term has to |
| 02:23.38 | Lone_Wanderer | apparently my most recent installation of Firefox doesn't, so it's kind of a moot point :( |
| 02:23.42 | Maquis | Eterm, screen, or both? |
| 02:23.58 | Tene | both |
| 02:24.09 | goozbach | screen in unicode ready |
| 02:24.10 | Tene | I use irssi in screen, and have unicode just fine |
| 02:24.20 | Maquis | goozbach: huh? |
| 02:24.23 | Tene | goozbach: you have to tell it to be so, though |
| 02:24.33 | goozbach | out of the box mine works |
| 02:24.40 | goozbach | no config issues |
| 02:24.40 | Tene | at least, I have unicode in urxvt on my desktop |
| 02:24.46 | Tene | but not in putty on windows |
| 02:25.01 | goozbach | see it's not screen that's the issue |
| 02:25.05 | goozbach | it's your terminal app |
| 02:25.10 | goozbach | putty has some issues |
| 02:25.20 | Tene | I've had screen give me issues before |
| 02:25.23 | Tene | about unicode |
| 02:25.54 | Tene | "Константин-Кирил Философ" |
| 02:25.58 | sjansen | ✔ UTF8 |
| 02:26.05 | Maquis | hmmm... doesn't seem to work for me |
| 02:26.14 | sjansen | probaby don't have fonts |
| 02:26.27 | Maquis | dunno |
| 02:26.42 | Tene | Maquis: do you see, like, a box, or a pair of chars? |
| 02:26.57 | Maquis | i see a bunch of really weird characters |
| 02:27.05 | sjansen | ❤ Linux ❤ |
| 02:27.10 | Lone_Wanderer | worked for me |
| 02:27.20 | Lone_Wanderer | looks like Russian |
| 02:27.26 | Maquis | ] |
| 02:27.59 | sjansen | printenv | grep LC |
| 02:28.16 | Maquis | nuttin |
| 02:28.23 | Lone_Wanderer | weird question for you, Maquis |
| 02:28.27 | Maquis | ? |
| 02:28.32 | Lone_Wanderer | have you ever heard of a person named Ip Man or Ip Ching? |
| 02:28.40 | Maquis | no |
| 02:28.43 | Lone_Wanderer | ok |
| 02:28.47 | Maquis | that is an odd question |
| 02:28.55 | tensai | is that a "I met this Chinese guy, do you know him?" question? |
| 02:28.59 | *** join/#utah ECS (~ecs@ecs-dell.byu.edu) |
| 02:29.01 | Lone_Wanderer | my kung fu instructors lied to me :'( |
| 02:29.02 | sjansen | ➵ Cupid ❤ |
| 02:29.12 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: huh? |
| 02:29.16 | Tene | Hey, do you know "Nicholas Wanberg"? |
| 02:29.18 | Maquis | ~lart ECS |
| 02:29.19 | Tene | He lives in Utah. |
| 02:29.29 | ECS | ~lart Maquis |
| 02:29.42 | Maquis | ~lart SpecialK |
| 02:29.51 | Lone_Wanderer | He's supposedly a famous person that everyone in China (and everyone who studies Chinese culture) learns about |
| 02:30.00 | SpecialK | ~lart Maquis |
| 02:30.06 | sjansen | echo $LANG |
| 02:30.06 | Maquis | hmm... could be true... i haven't covered chinese culture much |
| 02:30.18 | Lone_Wanderer | hey, SpecialK, why did you want me to update my chatzilla prefs? |
| 02:30.49 | Tene | Maquis == gentoo? |
| 02:30.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: I've also met several people from China, both Hong Kong and the mainland, and none of them know who he is either :( |
| 02:30.56 | Maquis | sjansen: empty |
| 02:31.16 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: hmmm... then, perhaps it isn't true :) |
| 02:31.18 | sjansen | export LANG=en_US.UTF-8 and restart scree/irssi |
| 02:31.21 | Maquis | Tene: yes... gentoo |
| 02:31.28 | Tene | http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/utf-8.xml |
| 02:31.41 | Maquis | sjansen: but... then i'll have to be offline for a few seconds! :) |
| 02:31.43 | sjansen | You've defaulted to C with ISO-something. |
| 02:31.53 | Lone_Wanderer | He's my Si Gung |
| 02:33.18 | Tene | http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/examples/UTF-8-demo.txt |
| 02:33.40 | Tene | good test file for utf-8 |
| 02:34.36 | tensai | boy am I missing a lot of fonts |
| 02:35.29 | sjansen | wow, I'm not |
| 02:35.36 | Tene | neither am I |
| 02:35.46 | sjansen | all I have problems with is the georgian |
| 02:36.17 | sjansen | and a little APL |
| 02:36.42 | Tene | Mmm... good music... |
| 02:36.46 | Tene | hope it doesn't put me to sleep, though |
| 02:39.12 | Tene | 19:35 <@TeneIsOnAHill> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/examples/UTF-8-demo.txt |
| 02:39.13 | Tene | 19:38 <@FrozenTrout> that link hateses me |
| 02:39.13 | Tene | 19:38 <@TeneIsOnAHill> howso? |
| 02:39.13 | Tene | 19:38 <@FrozenTrout> it crashes safari XD |
| 02:40.10 | Tene | interesting |
| 02:40.21 | Tene | I'd think that Safari would play nice with UTF-8 |
| 02:47.32 | *** join/#utah levi-laptop (~levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:50.29 | levi-laptop | Lost my connection at home. |
| 02:51.11 | tensai | there we go. now just the georgian font |
| 03:04.00 | tensai | http://www.sanet.ge/s-web/font.html looks like a winner |
| 03:05.02 | sjansen | license |
| 03:05.30 | sjansen | ? |
| 03:08.51 | levi-laptop | What do you need a Georgian font for? |
| 03:10.32 | sjansen | completeness |
| 03:10.59 | tensai | doesn't say |
| 03:11.08 | sjansen | might in georgian |
| 03:11.15 | tensai | heh. good point. |
| 03:12.07 | Lone_Wanderer | blast, XP requires the installation CD to install different character sets |
| 03:12.15 | levi-laptop | You're trying to fill in all your unicode glyphs or something? |
| 03:12.28 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 03:12.48 | levi-laptop | Heh. |
| 03:13.19 | Lone_Wanderer | oh well |
| 03:14.49 | Lone_Wanderer | back to beating my brain with a sharp pointed thing. I mean work. |
| 03:15.28 | tensai | I should probably go home now. too much work for today. |
| 03:17.01 | Lone_Wanderer | There, Mr. Special, my name is no longer Now Know Something Something. |
| 03:17.46 | sjansen | yes it is |
| 03:18.30 | Newsome | New Now Know How |
| 03:18.42 | Lone_Wanderer | it is?? crap |
| 03:18.58 | Tene | you have to reconnect |
| 03:19.03 | Lone_Wanderer | oh ok |
| 03:20.13 | *** join/#utah Lone_Wanderer (~chatzilla@c-67-161-243-72.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:21.11 | Lone_Wanderer | There we go. |
| 03:21.32 | Lone_Wanderer | and, even better, I'm attached to a node named after my favorite author :) |
| 03:43.32 | *** join/#utah mrpull- (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:47.52 | mrpull- | anyone use the actiontec gt-701? |
| 03:48.45 | dataw0lf | Unfortunately. |
| 03:48.56 | mrpull- | do you have problems with its DNS server? |
| 03:49.00 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@kite.zmonkey.org) |
| 03:49.04 | dataw0lf | using linux? |
| 03:49.27 | mrpull- | and DHCP configuring you to use it for DNS despite configuring it not to |
| 03:49.33 | mrpull- | yeah. only linux. |
| 03:49.47 | dataw0lf | check your /etc/resolv.conf |
| 03:49.54 | mrpull- | I change it. |
| 03:49.58 | dataw0lf | and make sure that the craptiontec isn't in there. |
| 03:50.11 | mrpull- | every time I get a dhcp lease :-/ |
| 03:50.28 | JoshH | mrpull: i have the actiontec, but i dont use dhcp on it. but i talk to a lot of our customers who use it, and sometimes they do have that problem. |
| 03:50.45 | dataw0lf | Linux with the gt-701, that's a known problem. |
| 03:50.56 | dataw0lf | never used dhcp with it, though. |
| 03:50.58 | JoshH | even windows people have it sometimes |
| 03:50.59 | mrpull- | I suppose I could just use a static IP |
| 03:51.11 | JoshH | thats what i do, all the boxes on my lan are static |
| 03:51.20 | mrpull- | it is a wifi connection... |
| 03:51.31 | mrpull- | otherwise it'd be a no brainer to go static |
| 03:51.32 | JoshH | even my wireless box, but i only have one box that uses wireless |
| 03:51.38 | tensai | have you tried the "prepend domain-name-servers <ip>;" option? |
| 03:51.42 | JoshH | if someone ever brought over a laptop i would have to add it |
| 03:52.21 | mrpull- | tensai: I have not. What context is that option in? The actiontech? |
| 03:52.36 | tensai | on the client. dhclient.conf on my box |
| 03:52.58 | JoshH | the actiontec is pretty crappy, i have to reboot it about once a month. but i like it anyway, just because i dont need to buy a separate wireless router. |
| 03:53.18 | mrpull- | ahh. no i haven't. I'll take a look at it. |
| 03:53.22 | tensai | JoshH: my sentiments exactly |
| 03:53.55 | JoshH | i just wish qwest didnt charge an arm and a leg for the pro dsl speeds |
| 03:54.15 | JoshH | the only thing i liked about my cable last time i had it were the 400k downloads |
| 03:54.19 | mrpull- | even pro speeds feel a bit slow to me :( |
| 03:54.19 | tensai | I off loaded dhcp and dns to my server. it handles them a lot better |
| 03:54.39 | JoshH | and now you can get 6/768 from comcast |
| 03:56.06 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 03:56.37 | JoshH | mrpull: what speed do you have? |
| 03:57.09 | mrpull- | 1.5/1 qwest/xmission |
| 03:57.46 | mrpull- | rats... the prepend domain-name-servers just adds one line... the offender is still there. |
| 03:57.55 | JoshH | ah, i have the same but with arosnet. qwest will sell you 7mbps, 4mbps, etc but they charge like 250 bucks a month. |
| 03:58.35 | mrpull- | yeah. that is a little high. |
| 03:59.37 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (~dataw0lf@dataw0lf.org) |
| 04:03.46 | mrpull- | hrmm... I removed domain-name-servers in the request line in my dhclient.conf and that didn't do the trick either |
| 04:04.14 | mrpull- | it's not worth the hassle. I'll just make it static. |
| 04:14.48 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-67-161-242-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:17.18 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@thelances.net) |
| 04:29.36 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-67-161-242-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:40.16 | mheath | Ja ne ;) |
| 04:47.44 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.192.70) |
| 05:10.59 | sjansen | gcc 3.4 broke c++ abi again?! |
| 05:12.05 | tensai | did redhat hurry and release 3.39 to match? |
| 05:12.07 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 05:30.24 | Maquis | wait... just to make sure i'm not messing this up: |
| 05:30.32 | Maquis | i'm mallocing |
| 05:30.39 | Maquis | 'thisSector' at the top of a function |
| 05:30.46 | Maquis | now, in this function, i've got: |
| 05:30.53 | Maquis | memcpy(dirEntry,&thisSector[dirNum*sizeof(DirEntry)],sizeof(DirEntry)); |
| 05:31.06 | tensai | oh, yeah. how could that go wrong? |
| 05:31.09 | Maquis | it won't kill anything if i free thisSector after doing the memcpy, right? |
| 05:31.53 | Maquis | tensai: ??? |
| 05:32.00 | Maquis | you'd be amazed what i can make go wrong... |
| 05:32.39 | *** join/#utah indessed (~ross@71-35-209-190.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 05:32.53 | Maquis | indessed: sup? |
| 05:33.01 | Maquis | anyone else been kicked off of gaim, btw? |
| 05:33.05 | indessed | gaim seems to be borked. anyone else having that problem? |
| 05:33.10 | indessed | heh. guess so :-) |
| 05:33.11 | tensai | I don't see why you can't free(thisSector) after that. as long as you don't use it later. |
| 05:33.23 | Maquis | tensai: ok... just checking |
| 05:33.44 | Maquis | i have on occasion returned pointers to data that no longer exists, which makes for interesting bugs |
| 05:33.44 | tensai | heh. I just got this message on NANOG. "Anyone else confirm? Looks like AIM, www.aol.com...maybe more, are all down form various POPs here." |
| 05:33.55 | Maquis | so, i wanted to make sure that the memcpy should've prevented that :) |
| 05:40.13 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~josh@josh.dsl.aros.net) |
| 05:40.25 | indessed | aim's back for all those who use such a sucky protocol. |
| 05:44.18 | Maquis | for those of us with friends who won't switch to jabber? :) |
| 05:47.43 | JoshH | i dont know anyone who uses jabber except for the fans of it here |
| 05:48.21 | indessed | afaict jabber's only useful for an internal network chat server |
| 05:48.24 | tensai | we use it for our corporate IM. strictly standalone but it works great. everybody loves it. |
| 05:48.38 | tensai | I'm biased though since that was my proposal |
| 05:48.40 | JoshH | ya i used to use it as a corporate IM at a place like 3 years ago |
| 05:48.42 | indessed | yeah, like a corporate IM :-) |
| 05:48.53 | tensai | sure beats the old corporate ICQ we had |
| 05:49.17 | indessed | any recommendations for a jabber server? I'm thinking of setting one up at work |
| 05:49.23 | JoshH | we use irc where i work now, its a lot better |
| 05:49.25 | levi-laptop | Hmm. I need to add a port forward to my Actiontec, but now I'm afraid to restart it. |
| 05:49.30 | Maquis | it's kinda nice though... doesn't have aim's abusive TOC |
| 05:49.41 | Maquis | levi-laptop: why afraid to restart it? |
| 05:49.43 | tensai | levi-laptop: you should be |
| 05:49.55 | indessed | JoshH: you say irc is better than jabber for a corporate IM? |
| 05:49.58 | levi-laptop | Maquis: Because it's flaky as hell, and often doesn't work after you do. |
| 05:50.08 | JoshH | not for IM, but just for communicating with coworkers in general |
| 05:50.30 | indessed | i've been thinking of using either irc or jabber for our corporate IM |
| 05:50.38 | indessed | what made you like irc better? |
| 05:50.39 | levi-laptop | If I go dead, it will be the Actiontec's fault. |
| 05:51.10 | indessed | i was thinking jabber would be better since it has the ability to save messages if the person's offline until they're back online to read the message |
| 05:51.11 | JoshH | indessed: just because, irc is what im used to and its convenient because everyine is just in the same channel. |
| 05:51.22 | tensai | lately mine has been holding up ok, but I have plenty of problems |
| 05:51.39 | indessed | JoshH: but you can have a chat room in jabber too, right? |
| 05:51.50 | tensai | indessed: yes |
| 05:52.01 | indessed | JoshH: or was it just a matter of what people did and not differences in the protocol? |
| 05:52.17 | JoshH | basically |
| 05:52.41 | indessed | k, cool. just trying to find out if there's a good reason to go with one over the other. |
| 05:52.47 | JoshH | i have my irc client, with all the channels i hang out in including the one for work, and then gaim for all the people i talk to by IM. |
| 05:52.53 | JoshH | honestly i would just go with whatever is simpler |
| 05:53.00 | indessed | they both seem to have about the same functionality and same number of clients written for them. |
| 05:53.13 | indessed | i use gaim for IM and for IRC so it doesn't make a difference to me. |
| 05:53.23 | JoshH | i use gaim for im, xchat for irc |
| 05:54.44 | tensai | if you've got users who are more used to msn or aim, jabber might be the way to go. for us that's the case. |
| 05:55.10 | tensai | it's also possible to tie it into ldap which is nice if you've already got it set up |
| 05:55.45 | indessed | tensai: we all use aim right now, but it's annoying as heck when the internet connection goes down and we can't talk to each other |
| 05:56.01 | indessed | and setting up an ldap server is on my very long list of things to do. |
| 05:56.16 | tensai | and not to mention all your private communication is sent to aol in plaintext |
| 05:56.23 | JoshH | lol |
| 05:56.24 | indessed | exactly. |
| 05:57.18 | indessed | gaim-encryption makes me feel somewhat better about that, but it's hard to have everyone use it in a corporate environment. |
| 05:58.12 | tensai | we require ssl on our server. that solves that. |
| 05:58.35 | bigdog_ut | i would think in a corp env it would be easier to do by issueing policy |
| 05:59.03 | indessed | solves the problem of sending IMs to AOL in plaintext? |
| 05:59.41 | tensai | solves the problem of people forgetting or not knowing to enable encryption. it's required. |
| 05:59.55 | tensai | we didn't install any of the IM transports |
| 06:00.11 | indessed | oh, you mean using jabber? |
| 06:00.17 | indessed | I was still thinking of AIM. |
| 06:00.28 | tensai | officially I believe they're discouraged, but ignored unless they causes problems |
| 06:00.41 | tensai | yeah, for jabber. sorry. too many topics to keep them all clear. |
| 06:01.07 | indessed | It shouldn't matter if it's encrypted if it's just local chats, though, right? Or do you have people connecting from off-site? |
| 06:01.43 | indessed | i didn't even know jabber supported ssl. learn something new every day :-) |
| 06:01.43 | tensai | we don't know because we deployed vpns at our remote locations, but when I built it we did |
| 06:01.52 | tensai | we also leave open the possibility of opening up the port |
| 06:02.01 | indessed | i guess that's one advantage over irc. |
| 06:02.28 | JoshH | irc supports ssl too. :) |
| 06:02.28 | tensai | irc can tunnel over ssl as well |
| 06:02.58 | indessed | man, learn two new things every day. |
| 06:03.15 | indessed | does gaim support irc over ssl? |
| 06:03.24 | indessed | i checked and it supports jabber over ssl. |
| 06:03.39 | indessed | i can't find ssl/tls anywhere in the irc menu though. |
| 06:03.46 | indessed | is it commonly used? |
| 06:04.11 | Maquis | ok... can somebdoy give me a quick hand? |
| 06:04.47 | Maquis | my program is seg-faulting, and i'm thinking that this line is the culprit, but i can't figure out what's making it seg-fault |
| 06:04.49 | bigdog_ut | Maquis, what you need? |
| 06:04.50 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:05.11 | Maquis | dirEntry is a DirEntry* |
| 06:05.34 | Maquis | thisSector was declared with: DirEntry* thisSector = (DirEntry*)malloc(512); |
| 06:05.39 | indessed | maquis: you using gdb? |
| 06:06.09 | Maquis | indessed: i'm really not very good with gdb yet... i end up just getting more confused... :( |
| 06:06.22 | Maquis | i know i need to learn to use it better, but i stink at it |
| 06:06.28 | indessed | maquis: i suck with gdb too ... just wanted to know what it said was making it crash |
| 06:06.36 | indessed | (that's all I use it for really. that and breakpoints.) |
| 06:06.44 | indessed | (and this cs465 lab.) |
| 06:07.21 | Maquis | all it says when i run it in gdb is: |
| 06:07.27 | Maquis | Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. |
| 06:07.28 | Maquis | 0xb7f2df0f in memcpy () from /lib/libc.so.6 |
| 06:07.40 | Newsome | Maquis, did you compile with "-g" ? |
| 06:07.52 | Maquis | Newsome: that time, i did |
| 06:08.38 | tensai | first I would check the values of all the variables you passed to memcpy |
| 06:08.51 | tensai | use "up" (iirc) to move up the stack to your calling function |
| 06:09.30 | Maquis | tensai: ok... yeah, it says that it's on that line... |
| 06:09.38 | indessed | is dirNum an int* ?? (*dirNum)*sizeof(DirEntry) |
| 06:09.40 | Maquis | that's a cool command for it |
| 06:10.00 | Maquis | indessed: that's what it's declared as... |
| 06:10.22 | SpecialK | make break points after known good code and step through it. |
| 06:10.25 | tensai | print dirEntry, ... |
| 06:11.00 | Maquis | dirEntry is dirEntry = 0x827e7c8 |
| 06:11.15 | Maquis | i had that one printing to make sure it wasn't getting corrupted... |
| 06:11.42 | indessed | i'd stick a printf right before that statement printing out: |
| 06:12.09 | indessed | dirEntry, *dirNum, sizeof(DirEntry), and &thisSector. |
| 06:12.35 | tensai | print dirNum |
| 06:12.39 | tensai | print thisSector |
| 06:12.42 | tensai | print *dirNum |
| 06:12.49 | *** join/#utah LeviHome (~levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 06:12.57 | LeviHome | This thing is such a pile of crap. |
| 06:12.59 | indessed | or use gdb, which I didn't know you could do all that with :-) |
| 06:13.10 | Maquis | indessed: :) |
| 06:13.14 | indessed | ah, the joy of gdb :-) |
| 06:13.17 | Maquis | tensai: thanks for the commands :) |
| 06:13.31 | Newsome | Maquis: instead of doing all the computation in the memcpy statement, try defining and computing a temporary sectorOffset and print it out to make sure it looks sane |
| 06:13.42 | tensai | (*dirNum)*sizeof(DirEntry) confuses me |
| 06:14.12 | Maquis | tensai: (gdb) print dirEntry |
| 06:14.12 | Maquis | No symbol "dirEntry" in current context. |
| 06:14.25 | tensai | try dirNum instead ;) |
| 06:14.36 | Maquis | oh... wait... |
| 06:14.37 | indessed | it confuses me too, but i always get confused with * and & and stuff. |
| 06:14.46 | Newsome | Maquis: This looks/sounds like FAT, so the offset should be a multiple of 0x20 IIRC |
| 06:14.51 | indessed | That's why I much prefer Java ... :-) |
| 06:15.11 | Maquis | Newsome: why would it be a multiple of 0x20? |
| 06:15.13 | indessed | pointers to pointers to pointers ... sheesh! |
| 06:15.16 | tensai | indessed: because NullPointerException is harder to say than segfault? |
| 06:15.26 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.192.70) |
| 06:15.32 | tensai | Maquis: because Newsome said so! |
| 06:15.45 | indessed | tensai: because it tells me what line number and prints a stacktrace without me needing gdb ;-) |
| 06:15.47 | Newsome | Maquis: what's the sizeof(DirEntry) ? |
| 06:16.02 | Maquis | Newsome: 32 |
| 06:16.09 | Newsome | or 0x20 :) |
| 06:16.16 | Maquis | oh |
| 06:16.43 | tensai | indessed: yeah, that's handy. I like java too. |
| 06:16.52 | Newsome | Then, you multiply that by the entry number (dirNum), and it had better be a multiple of 32 or 0x20 |
| 06:16.59 | indessed | maquis: what, you can't read hex like amcnabb?? |
| 06:17.16 | Maquis | indessed: nope... |
| 06:17.17 | indessed | tensai: i wasn't trying to start a flamewar, honest :-) |
| 06:17.32 | indessed | tensai: c/c++ just confuse me, that's all. i have great respect for those who can manage. |
| 06:17.55 | Maquis | indessed: who was it that posted the question about linux on macs with the comment "not trying to start a flamewar here..." |
| 06:18.06 | Maquis | whoever it was that did that deserves some sort of award |
| 06:18.08 | tensai | indessed: I'm not a language zealot. I'm equally poor at all of them. Whatever works best, as long as I don't have to use lisp. |
| 06:18.25 | indessed | that was the biggest flamewar ever. hehe. |
| 06:18.34 | Maquis | that was 3 separate flamewars |
| 06:18.35 | indessed | and all started from a simple little question about linux and macs. |
| 06:18.44 | indessed | but they all kind of merged into each other |
| 06:18.56 | indessed | they weren't wholly separate--it just grew and grew! |
| 06:19.08 | tensai | Maquis: do you still have gdb open? |
| 06:19.19 | Maquis | yes |
| 06:19.24 | Maquis | but i can't get my variables to print |
| 06:19.31 | tensai | what does it do? |
| 06:19.32 | LeviHome | Well, my Actiontec's software seems to have gotten all confused, but it did do what I asked it to this time. |
| 06:19.40 | Maquis | they're just always saying that there's no symbol in the current context... |
| 06:20.04 | LeviHome | tensai: You know you want to use lisp. |
| 06:20.07 | tensai | you're sure you backed up to the right spot? |
| 06:20.22 | Maquis | tensai: oh... i have to back up before doing that? |
| 06:20.24 | indessed | LeviHome: nobody /wants/ to use lisp |
| 06:20.31 | LeviHome | indessed: I do. |
| 06:20.44 | LeviHome | People who don't want to use it haven't learned to appreciate it yet. |
| 06:20.45 | tensai | Maquis: you have to be in the right context, yes |
| 06:20.52 | indessed | LeviHome: obsessed with parentheses, eh? |
| 06:20.53 | indessed | ;-) |
| 06:21.04 | tensai | LeviHome: I can read it, that's quite enough for me |
| 06:21.14 | LeviHome | indessed: No, just conceptual elegance and expressive power. |
| 06:21.15 | Maquis | tensai: thanks for pointing that out... /me is a tad slow on this |
| 06:21.22 | indessed | (my(other(car(is(a(cdr)))))) |
| 06:21.25 | tensai | funniest bumper sticker I ever saw was "My other car is a cdr" |
| 06:21.35 | tensai | indessed: hey, that was my joke! |
| 06:21.37 | indessed | haha, too late ;-) |
| 06:21.43 | indessed | mine was funnier. it had parentheses. |
| 06:21.54 | indessed | parentheses make any joke funnier. |
| 06:22.02 | indessed | it's like weasels and gilligan's island. |
| 06:22.25 | Maquis | tensai: am i doing this part right: |
| 06:22.31 | Maquis | (gdb) print *dirNum |
| 06:22.31 | Maquis | $4 = 136831408 |
| 06:22.34 | LeviHome | The nice thing about lisp is the extreme regularity of its syntax, which makes it very easy to metaprogram. |
| 06:22.43 | Maquis | cuz if the syntax there is right, then i've got a serious problem... |
| 06:22.50 | indessed | anyway, levihome, on a more serious note, i can understand liking functional languages (as horrible as they seem to me), but aren't there lovelier functional languages around than lisp? |
| 06:23.03 | tensai | Maquis: yes. and that seems like a bug. I don't think fat12 supports that many directory entries in one directory |
| 06:23.12 | Maquis | tensai: yeah... |
| 06:23.15 | Maquis | it doesn't... |
| 06:23.22 | Maquis | thanks!!! :) |
| 06:23.23 | indessed | Levihome: or do you just like it because it's built into fetching everything under the sun? |
| 06:23.28 | tensai | 136 mil. just a few |
| 06:23.36 | Maquis | :) |
| 06:23.45 | JoshH | fetching? yep, im definitely in #utah. :) |
| 06:23.56 | LeviHome | indessed: The lovely thing about Common Lisp is that it's a very multi-paradigm language. |
| 06:24.07 | indessed | ack! buzzword overload! |
| 06:24.09 | tensai | JoshH: maybe he's talking about hash lookups |
| 06:24.53 | indessed | lots of things are multi-paradigm. doesn't necessarily make them lovely though :-) |
| 06:25.08 | LeviHome | indessed: You can do functional programming, or you can do procedural programming, or with a little bit of tweaking, any other programming paradigm you want. |
| 06:25.22 | indessed | hmmmm... /me imagines OOP in lisp |
| 06:25.26 | indessed | ow, brain cramp! |
| 06:25.43 | LeviHome | Common Lisp has a very powerful OOP system. |
| 06:25.57 | indessed | how frightening! |
| 06:26.00 | LeviHome | indessed: What lisp have you used, why did you learn it, and what did you do with it? |
| 06:26.05 | tensai | in 330 we built an OO system in scheme. well, the professor built it and I ignored it. |
| 06:26.24 | tensai | but it wasn't too bad |
| 06:26.25 | indessed | scheme. 330. cobbled together projects out of code other people had written. |
| 06:26.36 | LeviHome | Well, this is why you hate lisp. |
| 06:26.47 | LeviHome | You didn't learn lisp, you learned a subset of scheme. |
| 06:26.48 | indessed | but i've seen a lot of lisp code in other projects :-) |
| 06:26.57 | indessed | and understood precious little of it. |
| 06:26.59 | LeviHome | In the context of a very theory-heavy textbook. |
| 06:27.11 | indessed | In the context of a very crappy class. |
| 06:27.28 | indessed | (Sorry to those who liked 330.) |
| 06:27.35 | LeviHome | I didn't enjoy 330 at the time, but I'm having a lot of fun with the textbook now. |
| 06:28.22 | LeviHome | Anyway, give lisp a second look from a more practical viewpoint: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ |
| 06:28.36 | LeviHome | Common Lisp != Scheme |
| 06:28.59 | LeviHome | They share syntax, but are otherwise rather different in some important ways. |
| 06:29.11 | LeviHome | Common Lisp does not force you to use recursion for looping, for example. |
| 06:29.18 | indessed | hallelujah, hehe. |
| 06:29.47 | indessed | so what's clisp useful for then? |
| 06:29.58 | indessed | i mean, right now i'm doing parsing so of course i'm using php |
| 06:30.15 | indessed | (would use perl, but i've been using so much php lately that it's on my brain) |
| 06:30.22 | LeviHome | Uh, why is parsing an 'of course I'm using php' thing? |
| 06:30.41 | indessed | string manipulation hacks, quick script, |
| 06:30.47 | indessed | doesn't that just shout out "perl/php"? |
| 06:31.03 | LeviHome | Common Lisp has perl-compatible regular expressions that are often faster than perl's. |
| 06:31.19 | indessed | not looking for speed; looking for ease-of-programming. |
| 06:31.43 | indessed | can you write a quick text munger in clisp faster than in perl? |
| 06:32.29 | LeviHome | Common Lisp is not aimed at the same set of programming tasks as perl was originally intended for. |
| 06:32.44 | LeviHome | Common Lisp is more of an application development language, not for quick hacks. |
| 06:32.56 | Maquis | ACK!!!!! |
| 06:32.59 | Maquis | oh... |
| 06:33.00 | Maquis | wait... |
| 06:33.02 | Maquis | nm |
| 06:33.14 | LeviHome | (clisp is an implementation of Common Lisp. CL is a good general-purpose abbreviation) |
| 06:33.37 | indessed | which is why i was asking, i'm assuming it's not for quick and dirty string manipulation hacks, |
| 06:33.43 | indessed | so i was wondering what people typically use CL for. |
| 06:33.58 | indessed | (sorry, I just don't feel like typing Common Lisp out every time :-) |
| 06:34.09 | LeviHome | Which is why I suggested CL. |
| 06:34.21 | indessed | Which is why I started using it after you suggested it :-) |
| 06:34.21 | Maquis | *dirNum++ != (*dirNum)++ |
| 06:34.28 | indessed | Maquis: lol |
| 06:34.46 | indessed | See why I hate C? It lets you do stupid stuff like that :-) |
| 06:34.53 | LeviHome | See the URL I posted for some examples of things you can do with it. Also look at www.cliki.net. |
| 06:35.02 | indessed | "Protect me from myself, programming language!" That's my motto. |
| 06:35.07 | Maquis | stupid order of operations |
| 06:35.17 | Newsome | ~lart order of operations |
| 06:35.55 | LeviHome | indessed: You should become aquainted with Ocaml, then, too. Another multi-paradigm language, but with a strong type system. |
| 06:36.27 | indessed | see, that's a programming language I thought people who liked that sort of thing would use. |
| 06:36.34 | indessed | Why use Lisp when you could use Ocaml? I thought. |
| 06:36.42 | indessed | Apparently plenty of people still like Lisp better :-) |
| 06:37.12 | LeviHome | Because Lisp is dynamically typed, and some people like that. It also has better metaprogramming facilities. |
| 06:38.02 | LeviHome | Lisp does runtime type checking to keep you from doing evil things, though. |
| 06:38.13 | LeviHome | Unless you ask it not to for performance reasons. |
| 06:38.22 | Lone_Wanderer | we're doing Lisp again tonight hey? |
| 06:38.30 | indessed | Sorry, it's my fault! |
| 06:38.45 | Lone_Wanderer | keep waving your hand while I take aim... |
| 06:38.48 | LeviHome | I have to reeducate all the poor people scarred by CS330. |
| 06:38.54 | indessed | Lisp seems to be the favorite language to bash. |
| 06:39.04 | indessed | I don't know if it's 330 or what, but everyone loves to hate it :-) |
| 06:39.05 | Maquis | LeviHome: i might require reeducation at the end of next semester... |
| 06:39.20 | Lone_Wanderer | I Heart Lisp, indessed |
| 06:39.26 | indessed | maquis: you're taking 330? i take pity on your soul. |
| 06:39.35 | LeviHome | indessed: Most people are introduced to it through Scheme via a very theory-heavy CS class. |
| 06:39.36 | Maquis | indessed: thanks? |
| 06:39.46 | LeviHome | Maquis: Taking it from Phil Windley? |
| 06:39.51 | Maquis | LeviHome: dunno |
| 06:40.06 | LeviHome | You probably should. He seems to be on top of things, technology-wise. |
| 06:40.13 | Maquis | if he's teaching... |
| 06:40.20 | LeviHome | He's teaching it now. |
| 06:40.26 | indessed | LW: I don't dislike Lisp particularly, I just didn't know why people would use it, given more "modern" languages like OCaml etc. |
| 06:40.32 | Maquis | all i know is i'm not taking it from Geary |
| 06:40.33 | Lone_Wanderer | LeviHome: I kind of like that people get so scared of Lisp here at BYU. It makes me sound smart when I tell people I taught myself Lisp ;) |
| 06:40.53 | LeviHome | indessed: Common Lisp is actually fairly modern. |
| 06:40.55 | Maquis | there are 2 people teaching next semester, and one is Geary... i'm taking it from whoever the other person is |
| 06:41.01 | indessed | To me I don't think "hard" when I think Lisp. I think Parentheses and Ancient. |
| 06:41.14 | indessed | Those are the two words that I think of when I think of Lisp :-) |
| 06:41.20 | SpecialK | Unless he's a visiting professor subservient to Geary. |
| 06:41.32 | indessed | But then again, the 1980s idea of Lisp in my brain might be quite different from the Common Lisp idea in your brain. |
| 06:41.34 | Lone_Wanderer | mmm, I see. |
| 06:41.40 | Maquis | SpecialK: somebody said it was a good prof... someone who's been around |
| 06:41.44 | Maquis | lemme check |
| 06:41.50 | SpecialK | You know how 252 fared that way. Oh, okay. |
| 06:41.53 | LeviHome | indessed: Look at the gigamonkeys.com URL I showed you. |
| 06:42.16 | Maquis | SpecialK: you mean you didn't just love our 252 prof??? :) |
| 06:42.23 | indessed | LeviHome: I did glance through it, no time tonight to get too in depth with it. |
| 06:42.28 | indessed | Unfortunately. |
| 06:42.49 | indessed | how do you make a perl regex non-greedy? |
| 06:42.52 | LeviHome | indessed: But at least you saw the 'practical' projects in the table of contents? |
| 06:43.12 | Maquis | Bryan Morse is the teacher i'm taking 330 from |
| 06:43.15 | indessed | LeviHome: yes, but it seemed rather generic |
| 06:43.24 | Newsome | Maquis: good choice |
| 06:43.38 | Maquis | Newsome: glad to hear it |
| 06:43.40 | indessed | I mean, none of those apps shout "Lisp is an exceptionally good choice for this project!" |
| 06:43.40 | LeviHome | indessed: How so? |
| 06:43.49 | Maquis | Newsome: is seamons good for security? |
| 06:44.04 | LeviHome | indessed: The idea is, "lisp is good at a variety of things!" |
| 06:44.06 | tensai | Maquis: better than he was for 345 |
| 06:44.14 | indessed | It seems more like "Here's a wide variety of projects to show you how great Lisp is." |
| 06:44.19 | Newsome | Maquis: Better than the guy who retired a couple years ago, but I wouldn't call him "good" |
| 06:44.19 | indessed | Yeah, or what you said. |
| 06:44.30 | indessed | Maquis: I'm in security right now, |
| 06:44.34 | LeviHome | indessed: I mean, does anything shout out, "Java is an exceptionally good choice for this project?" |
| 06:44.35 | indessed | i don't think anyone else teaches but |
| 06:44.35 | tensai | Maquis: I highly recommend the class, but sound like I agree with Newsome |
| 06:44.36 | Maquis | indessed: who do you have? |
| 06:44.49 | indessed | but i personally think seamons is an exceptionally boring lecturer |
| 06:45.00 | Maquis | doesn't sound like it if that's who indessed has... |
| 06:45.02 | indessed | but then again i've very picky about my professors, |
| 06:45.20 | indessed | and i'm already at least passingly familiar with the topics we discuss |
| 06:45.27 | indessed | it just seems like he goes sooooo slowly |
| 06:45.57 | tensai | Newsome: who used to teach it? |
| 06:46.01 | indessed | if you've never heard of public key encryption or buffer overflows or know how unix password files work, it might be interesting enough. |
| 06:47.26 | indessed | LeviHome: i'd say a very large and complex web application, or a cross platform GUI app, |
| 06:47.29 | Newsome | tensai: Higgins |
| 06:47.32 | indessed | when I think of those things I think "Java". |
| 06:47.58 | indessed | When I think of embedded systems or gaming engines, I think "C/C++". |
| 06:48.29 | indessed | When I think of really old linguistics programs, I think Lisp. |
| 06:48.45 | Newsome | Higgins had a degree in math that he got back in the early 60's |
| 06:48.53 | Newsome | or something like that |
| 06:48.54 | LeviHome | indessed: Well, Lisp is also very good at large and complex web applications. Not so much at cross-platform GUI stuff, though. |
| 06:49.09 | Newsome | problem is that he was trunky for retirement for the last 20 years |
| 06:49.56 | Maquis | indessed: would it be that slow or boring for someone who's not familiar with the subject? |
| 06:50.30 | indessed | .+ is greedy, .+? is non-greedy in perl regexes, for anybody who cares. (Found the answer to my own question.) |
| 06:50.52 | Maquis | i know the basics of a few things with security on linux, but i don't know much beyond what's come up with uug and here on #utah |
| 06:51.16 | indessed | maquis: depends. have you ever thought to yourself, "Man, this professor speaks too quickly." ? |
| 06:51.23 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.192.70) |
| 06:51.40 | Maquis | indessed: given that i did debate for 2 years, there aren't many people who speak too quickly... :) |
| 06:51.57 | indessed | that's how I am too. I like people to speak really fast. |
| 06:52.10 | indessed | So when I get a professor who ... pauses ... between ... words ... a lot ... |
| 06:52.15 | indessed | my brain tends to go into standby mode. |
| 06:52.34 | indessed | If you're one of those people, and you're at least passingly familiar with the material, it will probably be at least somewhat boring. |
| 06:52.49 | indessed | If you don't mind lecturers who speak slowly and tend to have a slower, repetitive pace, |
| 06:52.57 | indessed | and you're not that familiar with the topics I mentioned, |
| 06:53.05 | indessed | it'll probably be just another average CS class. |
| 06:53.15 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 06:53.31 | Maquis | well, it'll be worth taking, if for no other reason than that i *need* to know the material.. :) |
| 06:53.50 | indessed | what do you *need* to know the material for? |
| 06:54.08 | Maquis | indessed: because i don't know much at all about security |
| 06:54.14 | tensai | Maquis: read the first few chapters of Applied Cryptography. if you want to read the rest, take the class. |
| 06:54.29 | indessed | (I ask because the material you are expecting might be quite different from what CS 465 is.) |
| 06:54.42 | tensai | actually, read Crypto by... some guy. hold on, lemme see. but that's a good book. |
| 06:55.07 | indessed | "security" is a pretty broad subject. |
| 06:55.11 | Maquis | well, i have a very slight understanding of what public-key encryption is, and i'm interested in actually knowing what it is... |
| 06:55.13 | Newsome | read anything by Schneier |
| 06:55.25 | Maquis | does it cover much network security? |
| 06:55.32 | indessed | cs 465 is very little "real-world" stuff, im[ns]ho |
| 06:55.51 | indessed | you talk about /protocols/, but not how to implement them or use them in a real-world environment |
| 06:56.13 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 06:56.15 | indessed | for example we went into fine detail into the SSL/TLS protocol, |
| 06:56.18 | tensai | indessed: 465 isn't very real-world but it's come in handy a surprising number of times |
| 06:56.23 | indessed | how each handshaking part works, etc., |
| 06:56.32 | tensai | of course, I make my living from networking |
| 06:56.35 | Maquis | see, one of the things i find really interesting is the idea of testing software for security holes and such... |
| 06:57.13 | indessed | but gives you zero about how to, say, create a certificate and set up SSL on your server. |
| 06:57.13 | tensai | Maquis: you should at least sign up for Schneier's crypto-gram monthly newsletter. |
| 06:57.14 | indessed | we go into huge detail about the kerberos protocol, |
| 06:57.16 | Maquis | i interviewed with a novell testing dept this year (and didn't have a chance at the job), and they asked me a bunch of cracking/security-testing/etc type of question |
| 06:57.20 | Maquis | s |
| 06:57.25 | Maquis | tensai: where schneier? |
| 06:57.37 | tensai | Ah. Crypto by Steven Levy. Check your local library. |
| 06:57.47 | indessed | but you get zero about how to set up kerberos in your office, or typical configurations that people use. |
| 06:57.55 | tensai | ~crypto-gram |
| 06:57.59 | LeviHome | indessed: That's because you're at a university. |
| 06:58.01 | tensai | ~google crypto-gram |
| 06:58.13 | LeviHome | indessed: That's how universities are supposed to work. |
| 06:58.26 | indessed | LeviHome: oh no, let's not get into the "universities are not vo-tech schools" debate |
| 06:58.34 | indessed | i'll be here all night |
| 06:59.17 | LeviHome | Well, I wish there were some way to create a presigious vo-tech school so the people who want that could go there. |
| 06:59.25 | Maquis | indessed: if it has more application to the real-world than cs404 does, i think i'll be fine |
| 06:59.35 | indessed | I'm just saying that if Maquis is *expecting* to get some real-world knowledge about security, and ends up getting a bunch of theoretical knowledge about public-key encryption and protocol handshakes, |
| 06:59.38 | indessed | she might be disappointed. |
| 06:59.54 | indessed | maquis: no worries there :-) |
| 06:59.58 | Maquis | :) |
| 07:00.11 | tensai | Maquis: 404 is nothing *but* theory |
| 07:00.15 | LeviHome | The point of classes is to teach you how to implement things, though, not set up someone else's implementation. |
| 07:00.22 | Maquis | cs404 is really im(ns)ho the most pointless class in the program |
| 07:00.29 | Maquis | LeviHome: that makes sense |
| 07:00.45 | tensai | Maquis: what's wrong with an hour break 3 times a week? |
| 07:01.07 | indessed | levihome: i agree, i just don't like having to memorize protocols I can look up in a book. |
| 07:01.14 | indessed | teaching concepts i can understand. |
| 07:01.56 | Maquis | tensai: nothing's wrong with an hour break... but the assignments in the class are nothing but stupid busy-work (part of the reason i haven't yet started the 3-page paperr due in that class tomorrow) |
| 07:02.10 | LeviHome | Gah, my blog's mysql dump is 52Mb. |
| 07:02.21 | LeviHome | Stupid drupal and its obsessive db use. |
| 07:02.55 | LeviHome | Heh, gzip compresses it down to 2Mb. |
| 07:04.34 | Lone_Wanderer | your own blogging software, or just keeping your own blog? |
| 07:04.57 | Maquis | writing my own php scripts to do a minimalist blog on my website |
| 07:05.14 | Maquis | it seems like all the existing blogging software has a ton of features i wouldn't actually use |
| 07:05.16 | Lone_Wanderer | you could just use movable type |
| 07:05.24 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah, they do |
| 07:05.30 | tensai | been there, done that. wouldn't do it again. |
| 07:05.47 | LeviHome | Maquis: I did it too, but I'm doing it again in Lisp as a programming exercise. |
| 07:06.00 | LeviHome | I wouldn't do it again in php. :) |
| 07:06.19 | indessed | But you'd do it in Lisp. Hehe. :-) |
| 07:06.40 | indessed | Oh well. Maybe in a couple of years you'll be saying the same thing about CL. |
| 07:07.06 | LeviHome | Perhaps. |
| 07:07.18 | indessed | I wonder what new languages we'll have then, eh? |
| 07:07.22 | LeviHome | I'd also considered doing it in Smalltalk, but I'd rather do something else. |
| 07:07.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Arc ;) |
| 07:08.02 | LeviHome | indessed: I'm annoyed that we get so many new ones that aren't particularly different than old ones. |
| 07:08.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Perhaps we're reaching some upper limit on optimal language design, and all that remains to do is shuffle around already-existing features in new ways? |
| 07:08.57 | LeviHome | (do something else in smalltalk, I mean) |
| 07:09.10 | LeviHome | Lone_Wanderer: No, I don't think so. |
| 07:09.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Or maybe the barrier to writing new languages has come down, so (like bad poetry written by depressed teenagers) we're being inundated by everyone's mediocre brainchildren |
| 07:10.04 | LeviHome | I do think the free software movement has caused some of that. |
| 07:11.04 | indessed | I don't know, despite the crappiness of PHP, I still think it was a boon rather than a bane. |
| 07:11.15 | Lone_Wanderer | I think it'd be interesting to find out how different people filter out the noise of the 'net as a whole to get just the signals they're interested in |
| 07:11.27 | indessed | (And other similar "new languages" of this era.) |
| 07:12.13 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: are you referring to searches? or what? |
| 07:12.32 | Lone_Wanderer | no... just anything that a given person is interested in |
| 07:12.59 | indessed | you mean how people are interested in different things, or how they find what they're interested in? |
| 07:13.02 | LeviHome | indessed: Most 'new languages' of this era are revisiting ideas that came from lisp, but are now becoming more practical due to growth of machine power. |
| 07:13.28 | indessed | LeviHome: ha ha, I am quite skeptical of statements like that. |
| 07:13.37 | LeviHome | 'came from lisp' in the sense that they are ideas descended from that branch of the Fortran/Lisp dichotomy in the early days. |
| 07:13.58 | Lone_Wanderer | If you wanted to discover unpublished poets, for example, and you went poking around the net, you'd have a hard time finding the really good stuff among all the complete crap |
| 07:14.28 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: i've found that problem while poking around Creative Commons music... |
| 07:14.50 | Lone_Wanderer | better example. Open Source projects. there's probably 100 new OS projects every day. |
| 07:14.50 | LeviHome | indessed: Really. Dynamic typing, garbage collection, higher-order functions, etc. were pioneered in Lisp. |
| 07:14.55 | Lone_Wanderer | 99% of them are really, amazingly poorly conceived |
| 07:15.19 | Lone_Wanderer | but somehow, I manage to find out about cool new OS projects that interest me |
| 07:15.32 | indessed | LeviHome: i've found that everyone has their pet thing that everything traces back to |
| 07:15.33 | Lone_Wanderer | and most of the time I don't have to deal with the crappy ones |
| 07:15.49 | Lone_Wanderer | and I'm just curious how that happens |
| 07:15.50 | indessed | like anthropologists saying that everything is anthropology, |
| 07:15.52 | LeviHome | indessed: You can only go back so far, and when you do, you hit Lisp or Fortran. |
| 07:15.53 | Lone_Wanderer | indessed: he's not making stuff up |
| 07:15.59 | indessed | or linguists saying everything is linguistics. |
| 07:16.17 | Lone_Wanderer | indessed: what he's talking about is fairly well documented, and agreed upon even among non-Lisp fanatics. (Probably because it's true.) |
| 07:16.32 | LeviHome | Not /everything/ came from Lisp, of course. |
| 07:16.43 | indessed | Lone_Wanderer: I don't doubt his veracity |
| 07:17.05 | LeviHome | Object-orientation came into life as a result of Simula. |
| 07:17.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, I haven't been following your conversation very closely, but it sounds like you're saying you don't believe a word he's saying. |
| 07:17.19 | indessed | Sorry if I gave that impression :-) |
| 07:17.28 | LeviHome | Which was an Algol derived language, which came from Fortran. |
| 07:17.42 | indessed | What I meant to be saying is that just about everything has multiple sources, |
| 07:17.48 | indessed | "there is nothing new under the sun," so to speak. |
| 07:18.01 | indessed | So if you take some well-established really good thing |
| 07:18.04 | LeviHome | C++ and Smalltalk are siblings under Simula. |
| 07:18.06 | indessed | and compare it to new things coming out, |
| 07:18.12 | indessed | you're going to find a whole lot of similarities. |
| 07:18.32 | indessed | So, for example, anthropologists can point to a lot of other disciplines and research and things |
| 07:18.34 | Lone_Wanderer | fair enough |
| 07:18.37 | LeviHome | indessed: Lisp and Fortran are still alive and kicking, though. |
| 07:18.40 | indessed | and say, "Look, that's anthropology!" |
| 07:18.48 | indessed | And I don't doubt that it is, |
| 07:19.03 | LeviHome | indessed: And you can directly trace the ancestry of certain features to Lisp. |
| 07:19.40 | LeviHome | Sure, they're all pretty common these days, so the people who throw them in their language don't necessarily know that's where they came from. |
| 07:19.43 | Lone_Wanderer | in a field like computer science, though, where most of the history of it is well-documented, it's possible to trace certain ideas to their real, actual first publication |
| 07:20.44 | indessed | LeviHome: so, what you're telling me is that every language ever conceived that had dynamic typing, garbage collection, higher-order functions, etc., all those ideas were either directly copied from lisp or directly copied from a language that directly copied them from lisp (etc.)? |
| 07:21.12 | LeviHome | indessed: Yes. |
| 07:21.28 | LeviHome | Why is that so strange to you? |
| 07:21.32 | indessed | I find it hard to believe that in even that small list there was never even one instance of simultaneous discovery. |
| 07:21.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: what instrument do you play? |
| 07:21.47 | indessed | Because good ideas don't usually just happen once in one place, |
| 07:21.52 | LeviHome | indessed: CS was not a very large field. |
| 07:21.59 | LeviHome | And it hasn't been around for very long. |
| 07:22.01 | indessed | they usually occur to multiple people at the same time. |
| 07:22.03 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: i can play a bit of piano... why? |
| 07:22.17 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: earler you mentioned poking around Creative Commons music *shrug* |
| 07:22.27 | Maquis | oh... usually i poke around the mp3s :) |
| 07:22.33 | Lone_Wanderer | oh cool :) |
| 07:22.34 | LeviHome | indessed: Sure, but we give credit to the person who published first. |
| 07:22.37 | Maquis | just looking for good music to listen to... b |
| 07:22.49 | indessed | LeviHome: Sure, but that doesn't make it right :-) |
| 07:22.56 | Maquis | but not a lot of success... there's a pretty large range of abilities... |
| 07:23.07 | LeviHome | indessed: In the case of programming languages, there really weren't a whole lot of them back then. |
| 07:23.35 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah, when anyone can publish anything... |
| 07:23.37 | LeviHome | indessed: And lisp spawned a whole lot of innovations because it was a very new way to look at programming. |
| 07:23.39 | indessed | If I come up with garbage collection independently, and you say, "You got it from Lisp," that's a bit disingenous, don't you think? |
| 07:24.02 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: that's the problem... and it fits with your problem with OSS... same type of thing... |
| 07:24.11 | Maquis | i haven't come up with a good way of sorting through stuff yet |
| 07:24.22 | indessed | But anyways, like I said, so I don't risk giving the wrong idea, |
| 07:24.22 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: have you ever heard of Rilo Kiley? |
| 07:24.29 | indessed | I agree that lisp spawned a lot of innovations |
| 07:24.32 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: no.. what kind of music? |
| 07:24.36 | indessed | and it was a very new way to look at programming |
| 07:24.47 | indessed | and many ideas can be traced back to Lisp |
| 07:25.28 | indessed | I just think that a statement like "Most 'new languages' of this era are revisiting ideas that came from lisp, but are now becoming more practical due to growth of machine power" tells only part of the story, at best. |
| 07:25.47 | LeviHome | What I'm saying is that once someone has come up with and published the idea of 'garbage collection', it doesn't matter if someone else comes up with the same thing independantly later. They were stupid for not following the literature. |
| 07:25.55 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: Not sure what category they fall into, possibly bluegrass? Beware if you download them though, there's some swearing in a few of their songs |
| 07:26.26 | LeviHome | indessed: No, that's pretty much most of the story. The ideas have been elsewhere in the meanwhile, but they started in Lisp. |
| 07:26.44 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: Back Street Boys? ;) |
| 07:27.09 | Maquis | not that as much... actually, there aren't any artists that i like all the music from |
| 07:27.25 | Maquis | it's more that i tend to like specific songs from various artists |
| 07:27.33 | Lone_Wanderer | mmkay |
| 07:27.43 | Maquis | although, i do like almost everything i've heard from Josh Groban, and some others... |
| 07:27.59 | tensai | Maquis: have you had a listen at magnatune? |
| 07:28.18 | indessed | LeviHome: Well, I really have to get off to bed but I'm sure I'll find some time to argue about Lisp another day :-) |
| 07:28.24 | Maquis | i looked at it... didn't look too closely, though |
| 07:28.47 | LeviHome | indessed: Ideas don't just pop magically into people's heads. They're influenced by work that's already been done. |
| 07:29.29 | indessed | LeviHome: ironically that's exactly what I'm saying :-) |
| 07:29.36 | indessed | They didn't just pop into Lisp, |
| 07:29.42 | indessed | they were influenced by work that was already done. |
| 07:29.57 | LeviHome | indessed: The work that influenced lisp was mathematical in nature. |
| 07:29.59 | Lone_Wanderer | that doesn't mean that Lisp wasn't the first language to implement them, though |
| 07:30.02 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@sorenson.dsl.csolutions.net) |
| 07:30.12 | indessed | Lone_Wanderer: exactly! |
| 07:30.24 | indessed | It must be too late for me to be making myself clear :-) |
| 07:30.31 | Lone_Wanderer | exactly? I think you might want to read that sentence again before agreeing ;) |
| 07:30.37 | LeviHome | indessed: Not very clear at all, now. |
| 07:30.49 | indessed | I'm just saying that in the entire evolutionary chain of languages, mathematics, etc., |
| 07:30.56 | indessed | to point at Lisp and say, "Look, everything comes from that!" |
| 07:31.06 | indessed | is just as valid as pointing at mathematics and saying, "Look, everything comes from that!" |
| 07:31.23 | indessed | I mean, it might be true, but it just doesn't mean much to me. |
| 07:31.41 | Maquis | indessed: i'd say it's perfectly valid to point at mathematics and say "everything comes from that" |
| 07:31.44 | indessed | It's like, Wow, look, there's Lisp along this big chain of ideas and events. |
| 07:31.45 | LeviHome | indessed: Lisp was the entry point of the mathematical stuff into the programming domain. It's a perfectly logical point to cite as a progenitor of computer concepts. |
| 07:32.20 | Lone_Wanderer | What you're saying is true, indessed, but it's also true that Lisp was the first language to implement garbage collection. |
| 07:32.34 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: I try to do that all the time :) |
| 07:32.52 | LeviHome | garbage collection, for example, is a foreign concept in mathematics. It was created in order to translate lisp into a programming language. |
| 07:33.01 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm used to my MUD client, that tab-completes any word it's got in its (500,000 line) buffer. |
| 07:33.34 | indessed | LeviHome: So you believe garbage collection just "sprang into being" in Lisp? |
| 07:33.43 | LeviHome | There are other intersection points of math and computers, like type theory in strongly typed languages. Those have nothing to do with Lisp. |
| 07:33.50 | LeviHome | indessed: Yes! |
| 07:33.55 | LeviHome | indessed: Because it's true! |
| 07:34.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: perhaps one day we'll be able to just think words and have them input automatically |
| 07:34.10 | indessed | heh. Okay, |
| 07:34.25 | indessed | let's say that there was never any Lisp, |
| 07:34.30 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: that'd be nice... except... i tend to get easily sidetracked... |
| 07:34.31 | indessed | imagine a hypothetical parallel universe |
| 07:34.34 | LeviHome | Okay. |
| 07:34.39 | indessed | where the Lisp creator was killed in a car crash or something bizarro. |
| 07:34.40 | Maquis | and what happens if you have that running, and you fall asleep at the computer? |
| 07:34.51 | LeviHome | But this is completely irrelevant to our current discussion, then. |
| 07:34.51 | indessed | So would garbage collection never have been invented? |
| 07:34.54 | Lone_Wanderer | indessed: I think it's a pretty well-established fact that Lisp was the first language to implement garbage collection. |
| 07:35.11 | indessed | Lone_Wandered: I entirely agree. I'm not disputing that point. |
| 07:35.15 | indessed | I'm just saying that it doesn't really matter. |
| 07:35.27 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: I'd hope I was logging whatever application I was in so I could see what came of it :) |
| 07:35.40 | indessed | If Lisp hadn't done it, somebody else would have. |
| 07:35.40 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: haha :) |
| 07:35.46 | LeviHome | indessed: It DOES matter, though, because Lisp did happen and it was implemented. |
| 07:35.50 | indessed | It was building on previous concepts, even if it was the first to implement it, |
| 07:35.56 | Maquis | i've fallen asleep while writing before... it was quite entertaining, actually... |
| 07:35.59 | indessed | so yes, you can point to Lisp and say, |
| 07:36.06 | indessed | Look, this was the first to have X, and Y, and Z, |
| 07:36.15 | indessed | and that may be entirely and 100% the pure and honest truth |
| 07:36.28 | indessed | I just don't think it matters in the slightest. |
| 07:36.43 | indessed | It's cool from a genealogical standpoint, |
| 07:37.01 | indessed | but otherwise of what use is that fact? |
| 07:37.07 | LeviHome | indessed: I'm saying that the Lisp paradigm, its essence, is coming into modern languages now. Not just random features. |
| 07:37.19 | indessed | So what does that mean to you? |
| 07:37.25 | indessed | Why is that important? |
| 07:37.35 | indessed | Does that mean Lisp is better because it was first? |
| 07:37.43 | indessed | Does it mean it is more robust in its paradigm or way of thinking? |
| 07:37.48 | Lone_Wanderer | indessed: the point is that Lisp has had features since the 1960's that newer languages are just barely "catching up to." |
| 07:38.23 | LeviHome | No, it means that people who are hacking new languages would be better served studying lisp than mocking it. |
| 07:38.24 | Lone_Wanderer | indessed: so maybe Lisp has additional features that newer languages haven't gotten around to adding yet |
| 07:38.49 | indessed | LeviHome: now that's a good point, I wholly agree with you there. |
| 07:39.19 | Lone_Wanderer | indessed: and maybe these other features that they haven't gotten around to adding yet are, like the other features they caught on to earlier, also really helpful (but still only available in Lisp) |
| 07:39.19 | indessed | But do note that the knife cuts both ways :-) |
| 07:39.44 | LeviHome | indessed: My entire point is that Lisp is worthy of careful study, because it's got a lot of powerful concepts in it that are part of the future of programming. |
| 07:39.57 | indessed | I'm sure the creators of Common Lisp have studied other programming languages and borrowed the best from others, rather than mocking their differences. |
| 07:40.17 | LeviHome | And I believe that many people who think they want new languages would be better served learning lisp and extending it. |
| 07:40.51 | Lone_Wanderer | The only feature they borrowed that I'm aware of is the loop macro, actually, which doesn't really add more functionality, it just allows you to do something in a more C-like way. |
| 07:41.10 | indessed | Well, it's hard to add "more functionality" to a Turing-complete language ;-) |
| 07:41.11 | Lone_Wanderer | oh, and OOP. |
| 07:41.37 | LeviHome | indessed: Bah, the whole 'turing-complete' language comparison is pretty meaningless. |
| 07:42.07 | indessed | Hehe, I know, I know, I was just pointing out that syntactic sugar is a lot of what makes programming languages different. |
| 07:42.10 | LeviHome | indessed: I mean, the universal turing machine is turing complete. I'd like to see anyone write a useful program in that. |
| 07:42.11 | Lone_Wanderer | brainf*&% is turing-complete and it lacks many of the features of other languages :p |
| 07:42.55 | LeviHome | indessed: Lisp arose as an alternative to Turing machines for describing computational processes in a theoretical context. |
| 07:43.04 | indessed | At any rate, I really am off to bed this time. |
| 07:43.10 | LeviHome | indessed: Goodnight. |
| 07:43.29 | indessed | Try not to get too excited about Lisp being the foreteller of the Future of Programming Languages though :-) |
| 07:43.39 | indessed | 'night all. |
| 07:43.51 | *** part/#utah indessed (~ross@71-35-209-190.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 07:44.02 | LeviHome | Not the only foreteller, at least. |
| 07:44.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: why are you still using FAT? |
| 07:44.40 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: FAT12... cs345 |
| 07:44.41 | LeviHome | Lone_Wanderer: Alas, some people are just prejudiced. |
| 07:44.56 | Lone_Wanderer | ahhhh, okay |
| 07:45.00 | Lone_Wanderer | ~lart cs345 |
| 07:45.06 | Lone_Wanderer | better? |
| 07:45.20 | Maquis | i'm sure that if it was an actual FAT12 system, it might actually recognize files and directories that exist |
| 07:45.25 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: thanks :) |
| 07:46.06 | Lone_Wanderer | good plan. I'm taking a short nap before starting the power coding session of the evening. |
| 07:52.57 | LeviHome | Time for me to go to bed. |
| 08:00.39 | Maquis | LeviHome: gnight |
| 08:16.48 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 08:16.58 | Maquis | synic: welcome back :) |
| 08:19.32 | synic | ty :) |
| 08:29.23 | Maquis | synic: are you also usynic and asynic? |
| 08:29.56 | synic | yup |
| 08:30.06 | Maquis | what's the distinction? |
| 08:30.20 | synic | hrmm, synic is my work machine |
| 08:30.30 | synic | usynic is my home machine |
| 08:30.33 | Maquis | are you at work still? |
| 08:30.34 | synic | asynic is my laptop |
| 08:30.41 | Maquis | ah... |
| 08:30.42 | synic | yes, I'm still at work :( |
| 08:30.47 | Maquis | where do you work? |
| 08:30.52 | Maquis | and what are you doing still there? |
| 08:31.06 | synic | well, we're actually right in the middle of moving servers |
| 08:31.10 | synic | I work at send out cards |
| 08:31.12 | synic | brb |
| 08:32.00 | synic | so yeah, we're up late because if we have any downtime, hopefully not a whole lot of people are trying to use it |
| 08:32.07 | Maquis | ??? |
| 08:32.11 | Maquis | send out cards? |
| 08:32.57 | synic | well, I'd send you to our website... |
| 08:33.05 | synic | if it was functional atm :) |
| 08:33.21 | Maquis | at my summer job, they had to reboot the servers every once in a while (windoze servers), and since it was for a medical clinic, they had to do so when nobody would need them |
| 08:33.27 | Maquis | so, they'd do it at 3am |
| 08:33.41 | Maquis | and within about 2 minutes, they'd have 3 or 4 docs on the phone complaining |
| 08:33.50 | synic | you may get something, but I'm not sure how much: http://www.sendoutcards.com |
| 08:34.23 | Maquis | i get "we will be down for scheduled maintenance until 9:00 am mst" |
| 08:34.29 | Maquis | which is pretty good |
| 08:34.31 | synic | hehe ... |
| 08:34.42 | synic | yeah, it's like an online hallmark... |
| 08:34.47 | synic | you can send cards from online |
| 08:34.47 | Maquis | that's cool! |
| 08:34.56 | synic | we print the cards, and send them (actual cards) |
| 08:35.03 | Maquis | and they're nice cards like the ones that you'd get at hallmark? |
| 08:35.06 | Maquis | that's way cool! |
| 08:35.14 | Maquis | expensive? |
| 08:35.32 | synic | businesses like to use it for customer retention - IE, you buy a car, and three months later you get a card saying "thanks for buying your new car - here's a free oil change" |
| 08:35.49 | synic | ya know? I think it's not expensive, but I really don't know. I'm just the IT guy :) |
| 08:35.49 | Maquis | how much for a card? |
| 08:35.54 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 08:36.03 | synic | like .96 a card I think |
| 08:36.17 | Maquis | including shipping? that's not bad... |
| 08:36.31 | Maquis | that's actually rather cheap.... |
| 08:36.36 | synic | you can upload pictures into the card |
| 08:36.47 | synic | and we scan a sheet so you can have your own handwriting font in it |
| 08:37.05 | *** join/#utah brailsmt (~michael@adsl-65-69-65-239.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net) |
| 08:37.07 | Maquis | so, you can get a personalized card for cheaper than a regular hallmark card... |
| 08:37.10 | Maquis | that's not bad at all |
| 08:37.16 | synic | pretty much. |
| 08:37.25 | synic | plus there's all the scheduling stuff you can do with it... |
| 08:37.37 | synic | send a certain card to everyone on christmas and their birthday's all at once |
| 08:37.42 | synic | it does out when it's supposed to |
| 08:37.49 | Maquis | that's sweet |
| 08:37.50 | synic | er.. i goes out |
| 08:38.01 | synic | bleh, I can't type. |
| 08:38.05 | Maquis | how is it working as their techie? |
| 08:38.13 | synic | pretty cushie :) |
| 08:38.21 | Maquis | do they have a large IT dept? |
| 08:38.24 | Maquis | or a tiny one? |
| 08:38.26 | Maquis | or what |
| 08:38.26 | Maquis | ? |
| 08:38.30 | synic | they have me and xilch|h |
| 08:38.36 | Maquis | ah... |
| 08:38.38 | Maquis | that's cool |
| 08:38.59 | synic | now that you've heard the cool part.. I'll tell you what actually makes the money. |
| 08:39.04 | synic | it's a network marketing company. |
| 08:39.08 | synic | hehe. |
| 08:39.09 | Maquis | uh huh... |
| 08:39.15 | Maquis | network marketing company |
| 08:39.20 | Maquis | i'm not sure i understand what that means... |
| 08:39.42 | synic | it means that most of the money is made by bringing on salesman to sell the product and bring on other salesman |
| 08:39.56 | Maquis | ok |
| 08:40.18 | synic | luckily I don't have to worry about that part of the business. |
| 08:40.23 | Maquis | good... |
| 08:40.47 | Maquis | so, you enjoy working there? |
| 08:40.51 | Maquis | it sounds interesting |
| 08:40.59 | Maquis | what types of things do you usually spend your time doing? |
| 08:41.28 | synic | yeah, it's a pretty good job. |
| 08:41.32 | Maquis | (sorry... i'm a student still, so i spend a lot of time interrogating people about their jobs, and finding out what it's actually like when you get out of school) |
| 08:43.13 | synic | one sec |
| 08:43.32 | synic | ok, so yeah, I'm normally coding in perl, or throwing darts. |
| 08:43.38 | synic | or moving furniture. |
| 08:44.04 | synic | and as of tomorrow, I'm the server administrator |
| 08:44.10 | synic | ... well, as of last week |
| 08:44.10 | Maquis | really? that's cool |
| 08:45.26 | synic | yeah - I've learned more about linux in the last week then in the last year |
| 08:45.47 | Maquis | what are the best and worst parts? |
| 08:46.37 | synic | the best parts? It's very lax. |
| 08:46.44 | synic | I IRC and play darts at work |
| 08:46.48 | synic | I love to program. |
| 08:47.08 | synic | they let me use linux wherever |
| 08:47.24 | synic | the worst part is that xilch|h has a raunchy stench about him |
| 08:47.34 | synic | and I don't get paid that well. |
| 08:47.41 | synic | it's not bad pay, but it could be better. |
| 08:48.01 | Maquis | haha |
| 08:51.38 | synic | this server move has gone without any snags. |
| 08:51.44 | Maquis | haha |
| 09:02.57 | Maquis | haha |
| 09:03.44 | *** join/#utah Tene (~tene@c-67-182-199-40.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 09:03.56 | Maquis | howdy Tene |
| 14:06.50 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 14:23.30 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 14:47.33 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 14:48.23 | brailsmt | how can i make so that I can login with a different user on a website that uses apache, without restarting the browser? |
| 14:49.41 | brailsmt | i basically need to provide a logout button, so people can then login again with a different user and password, the username and password stuff for the site is handled by apache |
| 15:00.05 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~JoshH@firebat.aros.net) |
| 15:29.20 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
| 15:33.23 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@207.141.37.66) |
| 15:40.29 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:41.48 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-67-161-242-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:44.20 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:45.01 | sjansen | http://www.mosnews.com/feature/2004/05/21/petrov.shtml |
| 15:47.57 | sjansen | All I have to say is "wow". |
| 15:49.12 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 15:54.40 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-210.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 16:02.29 | levi | sjansen: Good thing he wasn't trigger-happy. |
| 16:06.54 | *** join/#utah joshc (~joshc@65.37.125.194) |
| 16:09.41 | hans | ~steal joshc's information from a laptop |
| 16:15.43 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 16:15.54 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:20.40 | *** join/#utah Pokaia (~Miranda@207.88.78.2) |
| 16:27.42 | *** part/#utah Pokaia (~Miranda@207.88.78.2) |
| 16:31.49 | Maquis | sjansen: hmmm... if he'd pushed that button, i wouldn't've been born... |
| 16:32.42 | tensai | must... resist... joke... |
| 16:33.13 | sjansen | ~slap Maquis |
| 16:33.15 | ibot | ACTION slaps Maquis, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 16:33.28 | Maquis | sjansen: what'd i do??? |
| 16:34.44 | tensai | Maquis: something along the lines of "wouldn't have been so bad then" |
| 16:34.55 | Maquis | ~lart tensai |
| 16:35.18 | tensai | ~burn Maquis |
| 16:35.20 | ibot | ibot pours gasoline all over Maquis, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze |
| 16:36.41 | Maquis | ~lart tensai |
| 16:39.58 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:40.14 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:40.16 | sjansen | joshc: so teach ibot |
| 16:40.32 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:40.41 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:40.46 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:41.02 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:41.07 | sjansen | ~declare that joshc has no right to complain about larts |
| 16:41.29 | sjansen | ~travolta joshc |
| 16:41.31 | ibot | ACTION replaces joshc with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power |
| 16:41.39 | Maquis | ~say joshc you are too stupid to program me |
| 16:41.41 | ibot | joshc you are too stupid to program me |
| 16:41.53 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:41.55 | sjansen | ~say respect your elders Maquis |
| 16:41.57 | ibot | respect your elders Maquis |
| 16:42.03 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:42.12 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:42.19 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:43.27 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:43.34 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:44.41 | Maquis | ~go eat worms |
| 16:44.42 | ibot | o/~ nobody likes me, everybody hates me, i guess i'll go eat worms o/~ |
| 16:48.30 | brailsmt | goozbach: you diabetic? |
| 16:48.33 | brailsmt | :D |
| 17:01.25 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:05.19 | goozbach | brailsmt: not yet :) |
| 17:05.35 | goozbach | I won at poker the other night and have been eating my winnings |
| 17:05.42 | goozbach | (we play for candy) |
| 17:05.53 | *** join/#utah levi_ (~levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:13.09 | sjansen | Wow. The PLUG Web master sat on the next meeting announcement for only a coupla' days. |
| 17:13.17 | sjansen | That's gotta be a record or something for him. |
| 17:13.47 | sjansen | I think we should all buy him a nice gift to celebrate. |
| 17:24.22 | Maquis | sjansen: nice try |
| 17:28.08 | levi | Grrr. |
| 17:28.13 | Maquis | levi: ? |
| 17:28.17 | levi | I think my Actiontec crapped out. |
| 17:28.24 | Maquis | oh... |
| 17:28.26 | levi | Stupid worthless piece of crap. |
| 17:28.37 | levi | RAAAAAR |
| 17:29.18 | levi | I think it reset and forgot the port forwards it was supposed to do. |
| 17:29.50 | levi | I don't do virgin sacrifices. Only chickens. Rotisseried, preferrably. |
| 17:30.12 | Maquis | is sjansen close enough? |
| 17:30.24 | Maquis | he'd make a good chicken... |
| 17:30.55 | levi | Nah. I want a real chicken. Raised in a coop, so it's nice and tender. |
| 17:31.05 | Maquis | hmmmm.... |
| 17:31.32 | hans | borders struck out. anyone else know where I'd find "Essential SNMP" locally? |
| 17:31.52 | sjansen | Maquis: Shouldn't you be studying? |
| 17:31.58 | levi | hans: Yuck. |
| 17:31.59 | sjansen | Or sleeping? |
| 17:32.05 | Maquis | sjansen: i'm writing a 3-page paper that's due today |
| 17:32.06 | levi | hans: Do you use an Actiontec router? |
| 17:32.20 | hans | levi: yes, but not at work |
| 17:32.23 | sjansen | Maquis: No you're not. You're chatting. |
| 17:32.28 | hans | does it have the text of the book on it? :) |
| 17:32.38 | levi | hans: I don't have one at work, either. |
| 17:32.53 | levi | hans: I wanted to get to my home systems, but the Actiontec at home did something stupid. |
| 17:33.06 | levi | Maybe I'll go home for lunch and kick it. |
| 17:33.20 | hans | what did it do? or is that the mystery? |
| 17:33.33 | levi | It apparently reset and forgot the port forwarding it was supposed to do. |
| 17:33.46 | levi | Probably didn't even reconnect to the ISP. |
| 17:33.50 | sjansen | hans: Tried safari? |
| 17:33.59 | hans | does it have the latest firmware? |
| 17:34.00 | sjansen | My BYU login still works for it. |
| 17:34.04 | hans | supposed to much more stable |
| 17:34.11 | levi | Although maybe it did, since I can ping it. |
| 17:34.12 | hans | sjansen: did you have to set one up? |
| 17:34.16 | sjansen | nope |
| 17:34.25 | levi | hans: Probably not... when was new firmware released? |
| 17:34.29 | hans | I don't like reading on line but it could make waiting for shipping ok |
| 17:34.48 | vontrapp | paper is good |
| 17:34.59 | hans | levi: been a couple of months since xmission recommended it (on xmission.general) and at least a few weeks before that when it was released. |
| 17:35.14 | levi | hans: Okay, then I almost certainly don't have it. |
| 17:35.25 | levi | Stupid freaking piece of garbage. |
| 17:35.30 | levi | GRRR. |
| 17:35.37 | sjansen | hans: yep, it's on safari |
| 17:35.57 | levi | Crappy time for this to happen, when I'm trying to get my domain and website hosted at home. |
| 17:36.49 | levi | I think I got djbdns working correctly on it. |
| 17:37.48 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:42.09 | hans | joshc: it's the dsl modem |
| 17:42.19 | levi | joshc: I wanted the routing to continue to work when I reboot my Linux box. Besides, the Actiontec /is/ a Linux box. |
| 17:43.14 | bigdog_ut | actiontec sucks...get a zoom dsl modem...they rock |
| 17:43.25 | bigdog_ut | i fried my craptiontec |
| 17:43.34 | levi | Yes it sucks, but I already own it. |
| 17:44.09 | bigdog_ut | send it back...get your money back and then get a zoom..it is 100 better...a notch below a cisco |
| 17:44.46 | levi | If it breaks, I'll send it back. |
| 17:45.30 | Maquis | levi: i can help with that |
| 17:45.30 | tensai | it came broken. that's how they make them |
| 17:45.36 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:45.37 | levi | Meanwhile, it works fine until I try to reconfigure it. |
| 17:45.52 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 17:45.59 | tensai | levi: in the advanced menu was there a link at the bottom to configure telnet sessions? |
| 17:45.59 | bigdog_ut | good luck |
| 17:46.13 | levi | tensai: Not that I know of. |
| 17:46.14 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: I know, I know. I've got a Sangoma DSL PCI card, just haven't had time to set it up. |
| 17:46.24 | tensai | levi: then you probably have the older firmware |
| 17:46.31 | levi | tensai: I'm sure I do. |
| 17:46.40 | jsmith | bigdog_ut: At least Qwest is finally keeping me connected for more than an hour at a time |
| 17:46.50 | bigdog_ut | im with joshc build a linux router |
| 17:46.57 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 17:46.59 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:47.07 | bigdog_ut | im a xmission fan |
| 17:47.08 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:47.21 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:47.26 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:47.46 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:47.55 | bigdog_ut | sometimes the tech support is not to par with what i think |
| 17:48.23 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:48.31 | bigdog_ut | joshc, xmission |
| 17:48.39 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:48.52 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:49.08 | bigdog_ut | i remember my craptiontec having problems when i connected via wireless and it would cut the internet connection |
| 17:49.14 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:49.35 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:50.05 | JoshH | ive heard nothing but great things about speakeasy |
| 17:50.15 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 17:50.15 | bigdog_ut | but man that craptiontec sucks |
| 17:50.21 | JoshH | i was going to get them at my last address but they required a one year contract and i wasnt going to be there that long |
| 17:50.49 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:51.07 | JoshH | ive heard that if you get themin utah though, your gateway is in seattle or chicago |
| 17:51.25 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:51.32 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:51.41 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:52.00 | JoshH | dont they go through covad on their 6/768 deal? |
| 17:52.28 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:52.44 | JoshH | ah, ok |
| 17:53.03 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:53.08 | JoshH | im only 6000 feet from mine, but i only have 1.5/1 qwest/arosnet |
| 17:53.30 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:53.53 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:53.54 | Bradipo | joshc: I'm barely on the edge of being able to have adsl at > 20k from CO. |
| 17:54.10 | Bradipo | But I had to tweak my Cisco 678 to get it working. |
| 17:54.12 | JoshH | nah, i like just paying 33 a month to qwest since i get the ISP fee for free (since i work at aros) |
| 17:54.24 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:56.03 | hans | I have a hard time believing anything could be better than xmission, but it's good to know about speakeasy for when I move |
| 17:56.42 | JoshH | honestly i think aros and xmission are the two best ISP's in utah, by far. speakeasy is probably the best national ISP. |
| 18:05.16 | sjansen | probably an anomyly |
| 18:05.56 | sjansen | (although maybe the knowledge base is finally starting to work, they're getting enough scripts so that support can give better answerws while continuing to not think) |
| 18:06.08 | sjansen | oops |
| 18:06.46 | sjansen | at least hans'll get the comment meant for him |
| 18:06.56 | sjansen | along with everyone else on #utah |
| 18:11.00 | hans | hmm, maps.google.com is borkedc |
| 18:11.43 | hans | sjansen was just responding to my amazement that when OIT reset my route Y password, they asked me to change it while still on the phone. |
| 18:12.12 | sjansen | seems to work fine for me |
| 18:13.28 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:13.34 | sjansen | "Pappas Kitty Steak House"? That's sick! |
| 18:13.36 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:13.57 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:14.04 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:14.11 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:15.20 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:15.49 | hans | I get a nice empty box instead of a map. |
| 18:16.12 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:16.15 | hans | ooh, a cat farm. fresh cat whenever you crave it. |
| 18:16.21 | hans | canton, mi |
| 18:16.27 | hans | then sault ste marie, mi |
| 18:16.29 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:16.34 | hans | then provo, ut |
| 18:16.39 | hans | then http://maps.google.com |
| 18:16.51 | hans | always an empty box. it is a box copyright 2005 google |
| 18:16.59 | hans | so I'd better not copy it. |
| 18:17.10 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:17.41 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:17.53 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:18.05 | mrpull | navteq is cool. |
| 18:18.18 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:18.20 | mrpull | they send a bunch of jokers around in cars with GPSr's to make their maps |
| 18:18.29 | hans | no controls |
| 18:18.43 | hans | just a box |
| 18:19.08 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:19.30 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:19.37 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:19.44 | mrpull | its on the front page of their website. |
| 18:19.54 | mrpull | if it is on the web, it _must_ be true :) |
| 18:20.24 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:20.26 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:20.28 | mrpull | but yeah, I read about it in an interview elsewhere |
| 18:20.47 | hans | you could get around it by sending morons instead of jokers. |
| 18:20.48 | sjansen | yeah, so that anyone driving in a car with GPS will have to pay a fee |
| 18:21.00 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:21.03 | mrpull | it is a cool idea... at first it seems dumb because the could use satalite images... |
| 18:21.34 | hans | it's the natural way. satellites are the geeky way, but the best way to copy an image with a pencil is to trace it |
| 18:21.45 | mrpull | but then you realize they collect average speed... time spent at traffic lights.... |
| 18:21.46 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:21.50 | mrpull | all sorts of cool stuff. |
| 18:21.53 | sjansen | no, satellites won't tell you things like one ways |
| 18:22.00 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:22.04 | *** join/#utah MatriXica (~Matrixica@83-97-75-249.evolva.ro) |
| 18:22.04 | sjansen | one of the reasons I prefer mapquest over yahoo maps |
| 18:22.06 | MatriXica | hello |
| 18:22.17 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:22.18 | sjansen | yahoo tends to include impossible turns |
| 18:22.51 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:23.01 | sjansen | joshc: he'd be good to ask |
| 18:23.02 | hans | joshc: a nice box |
| 18:23.15 | sjansen | hans: maybe it's your browser |
| 18:23.20 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:23.33 | hans | maybe I need to restart firefox. might be a javascript bug |
| 18:23.38 | sjansen | probably just Debian make sure you don't feel too comfortable |
| 18:23.50 | hans | MatriXica: what can we do for you? |
| 18:23.56 | MatriXica | ah.. |
| 18:24.08 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:24.19 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:24.27 | hans | ~sell joshc |
| 18:24.37 | hans | ~explode |
| 18:24.38 | ibot | BOOOM |
| 18:24.44 | hans | stupid bot |
| 18:24.52 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:24.53 | ibot | Here! ****HHUUUUUGGGG***** |
| 18:24.55 | MatriXica | :( |
| 18:25.02 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:25.04 | MatriXica | anyone can give me an shell account ? |
| 18:25.14 | hans | sure, your ISP probably. |
| 18:25.24 | MatriXica | no :( he dont |
| 18:25.25 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:25.35 | JoshH | lol |
| 18:25.38 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:25.39 | MatriXica | my isp sucks |
| 18:25.41 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:25.42 | hans | there are places that will sell you shell access. e.g. xmission |
| 18:25.44 | *** join/#utah usynic (~synic@c-67-172-242-219.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:25.44 | *** part/#utah joshc (~joshc@65.37.125.194) |
| 18:25.48 | sjansen | MatriXica: Your English is bad and I don't know you. Not a chance you're getting a shell on my box. |
| 18:25.57 | sjansen | Nothing personal, but you're not engendering trust. |
| 18:26.07 | MatriXica | sjansen yes...my english sucks |
| 18:26.10 | hans | if you said redhat r0x0rs, otoh |
| 18:26.11 | MatriXica | i`m from Romania... |
| 18:26.17 | MatriXica | nevermind |
| 18:26.29 | *** join/#utah bzob (~bzob@nat.myfamilyinc.com) |
| 18:27.07 | JoshH | gah, this monitor keeps getting dark and i have to punch the screen a few times to brighten it up |
| 18:27.20 | MatriXica | sjansen do u got your own box ? |
| 18:27.42 | sjansen | linode.com <-- cheap hosting |
| 18:27.48 | MatriXica | how much costs you ? i mean to have it? |
| 18:27.53 | sjansen | that's what I use |
| 18:27.54 | MatriXica | sjansen your company ? |
| 18:27.58 | MatriXica | ok |
| 18:28.05 | sjansen | nope, just a satisfied customer |
| 18:28.09 | MatriXica | maby i can help u in exchange of shell |
| 18:28.11 | JoshH | so youre from romania, and you just decided to see if anyone from #utah wanted to give you a shell for some reason? |
| 18:28.13 | MatriXica | ok |
| 18:28.28 | MatriXica | JoshH |
| 18:28.56 | MatriXica | i know that i will not find a shell but ... i "keep walking" |
| 18:28.58 | mrpull | i'll take two shell accounts |
| 18:29.00 | mrpull | please |
| 18:29.12 | hans | would you like ketchup with that? |
| 18:29.15 | sjansen | MatriXica: Sorry, but not a chance. A random eastern european is just too suspicious. Now if I'd know you from one of the local LUGs for awhile... |
| 18:29.20 | neybar | yes, please |
| 18:29.25 | MatriXica | sjansen |
| 18:29.35 | MatriXica | i can send u a pic with me ;) |
| 18:29.40 | JoshH | sjansen: come on man, he totally seems like an honest guy |
| 18:29.42 | sjansen | heh |
| 18:29.45 | JoshH | have a heart |
| 18:30.03 | sjansen | MatriXica: I could give you root on JoshH's box if that'd help. ;-) |
| 18:30.09 | neybar | give him sudo access too. he really really needs it. |
| 18:30.11 | MatriXica | no i dont need root |
| 18:30.20 | JoshH | lol |
| 18:30.22 | MatriXica | only an shell account ( bash ) |
| 18:31.00 | mrpull | to learn to program? why do you need a shell account? |
| 18:31.01 | neybar | might I suggest that you grab a copy of your favorite distro and give yourself a shell account? |
| 18:31.23 | hans | or cygwin in a pinch |
| 18:31.28 | hans | or just grab a ubuntu live CD |
| 18:31.30 | MatriXica | first of all i need shell because i want to learn more linux |
| 18:31.35 | MatriXica | i`m still "noob" |
| 18:31.41 | hans | ubuntu. you want ubuntu |
| 18:32.00 | neybar | grab ubuntu live, or mephis |
| 18:32.22 | sjansen | Fedora Core, you want Fedora Core. Don't listen to hans. His mind's been addled by years of exposure to Debian. |
| 18:32.48 | mrpull | FC is evil! Try Knoppix. |
| 18:32.57 | MatriXica | and if the owner of shell will allowd me IRC i will use 1 psyBNC or eggdrop for irc |
| 18:33.00 | sjansen | Gentoo! It's the best way to learn! |
| 18:33.21 | MatriXica | free bsd ? |
| 18:33.22 | neybar | ~fish sjansen |
| 18:33.24 | ibot | ACTION slaps sjansen around with a large trout |
| 18:33.47 | neybar | Mandrake! |
| 18:33.51 | sjansen | MatriXica: The truth comes out. You're looking to build your bot army so that you can take over freenode and rule with an iron fist! |
| 18:34.17 | MatriXica | :( |
| 18:35.28 | vontrapp | MatriXica: truly the best way to learn would be to run your own box |
| 18:35.32 | sjansen | MatriXica: Pay no attention attention. I'm just trying to keep my signal/noise ratio balanced. |
| 18:35.53 | MatriXica | yes vontrapp is the best way.. |
| 18:35.54 | vontrapp | yeah, too much signal and sjansen's head will explode |
| 18:36.40 | vontrapp | hear that! i'm the best way |
| 18:37.09 | vontrapp | sorry MatriXica, don't mean to poke fun. we're all just a bunch of jokers |
| 18:38.01 | MatriXica | i see |
| 18:38.06 | MatriXica | nobody will give me an shell account |
| 18:38.23 | hans | you have a physical feedback loop? Does it look like a belt? |
| 18:47.32 | levi | Grr. My serial port seems to be totally hosed. |
| 18:47.37 | Tene | MatriXica: give one to yourself. |
| 18:47.52 | MatriXica | :( |
| 18:47.55 | MatriXica | yes |
| 18:48.43 | sjansen | So what made you choice little ole' #utah? |
| 18:48.53 | sjansen | choose even |
| 18:51.05 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@71.32.228.156) |
| 18:51.38 | hans | wade will give you a shell |
| 18:52.06 | MatriXica | ;( |
| 18:52.15 | levi | Grr. I'm going to have to reboot to get my serial port back. |
| 18:52.41 | Tene | MatriXica: why don't you just install bsd or linux on a computer that you own? |
| 18:52.57 | MatriXica | Tene i need good stability ( uptime ) |
| 18:53.02 | MatriXica | here my isp goes down daily |
| 18:53.36 | hans | you don't need network stability to learn linux |
| 18:58.24 | Tene | I'd think that having your own box would give you the best stability. |
| 18:58.25 | Tene | unless you have power outages, or something. |
| 18:58.29 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:59.13 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:59.38 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:01.04 | *** part/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 19:01.08 | Maquis | quick question for people |
| 19:01.15 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 19:01.33 | Maquis | what's the LaTeX command to get an extra space between each paragraph? |
| 19:02.25 | Tene | hmm |
| 19:02.57 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 19:03.21 | hans | Maquis: whatever for? |
| 19:03.26 | vontrapp | OK, so what's the deal |
| 19:03.36 | vontrapp | maybe some of you fellow byuers could shed some lite on this |
| 19:03.45 | vontrapp | i can log into route y just fine |
| 19:03.46 | Maquis | hans: most certainly not in order to get to the 3-page limit for my paper that's due in a little bit |
| 19:03.50 | vontrapp | i've reset my password even |
| 19:04.00 | vontrapp | but nothing else that uses the netid appears to work |
| 19:04.14 | vontrapp | at least, nothing i've tried thus far |
| 19:04.29 | vontrapp | being authenticating on the wireless network or the safari thing |
| 19:04.30 | hans | Maquis: you might find it easier to find docs online for resizing the margins |
| 19:04.47 | Maquis | hans: yes, but the class tells us what they want for the margins |
| 19:04.55 | hans | font size? |
| 19:04.56 | sjansen | \redefine\par{\vskip1000pt\$&^ #%!\read$!} |
| 19:04.57 | hans | 20 pt? |
| 19:05.21 | Maquis | they specify the font size too.. |
| 19:05.29 | vontrapp | maybe you can even add slightly more space inbetween each letter, and even more between words |
| 19:05.29 | Maquis | sjansen: ??? |
| 19:05.34 | Maquis | is that what it is? |
| 19:05.51 | sjansen | Maquis: No. But sure is hard to tell isn't it. |
| 19:06.00 | Maquis | sjansen: that's why i asked... |
| 19:06.11 | *** join/#utah vex (nwood@c-24-2-94-14.client.comcast.net) |
| 19:06.33 | vontrapp | aww, we lost our russian friend |
| 19:06.47 | xbmodder | we have? |
| 19:06.49 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 19:06.53 | hans | romanian |
| 19:06.56 | Maquis | gvim died again... |
| 19:06.57 | xbmodder | we had a friend? |
| 19:07.08 | vontrapp | Maquis: how do you kill gvim? |
| 19:07.25 | Maquis | dunno |
| 19:07.42 | Maquis | sometimes it decides to stop responding when you try to save, though |
| 19:07.43 | hans | xbmodder: where have you been? We've been cultivating a relationship with an eastern european spammer so whenever we need to send spam we know where to go |
| 19:07.44 | Lone_Wanderer | with a blunt -9? |
| 19:08.05 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: you can try kill -9, but it doesn't do anytyhing about it |
| 19:08.17 | Maquis | only solution i've found is just rebooting |
| 19:08.38 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't actually know what you're talking about =\ |
| 19:09.19 | xbmodder | lol |
| 19:10.04 | vontrapp | Maquis: have you tried xkill? |
| 19:10.14 | *** join/#utah levi (~levi@208.177.141.226.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:10.33 | hans | sounds like an nfs or smb problem to me |
| 19:11.02 | Maquis | vontrapp: tried that |
| 19:11.04 | vontrapp | ~kill network filesystems |
| 19:11.07 | ibot | ACTION shoots a excited pseudoproton gun at network filesystems |
| 19:11.15 | Maquis | the other interesting thing is that whenever it happens, /sbin/halt and /sbin/reboot also don't work |
| 19:11.23 | Maquis | so, to turn it off, you have to just hit the power button |
| 19:11.28 | hans | wuh oh a oohhhh! good-bye seventies! |
| 19:11.50 | hans | Maquis: you didn't give matrixica a shell account did you? |
| 19:12.03 | Maquis | no |
| 19:12.19 | Maquis | this is something that's happened twice before |
| 19:13.05 | xbmodder | some guy is on my site! |
| 19:13.08 | vontrapp | food...... |
| 19:13.09 | Maquis | so, nobody knows the command that I need? |
| 19:14.39 | hans | Maquis: if kill -9 don't work, nothing will. gotta figure out what resource it's blocked on. |
| 19:15.13 | Maquis | hans: oh... i was referring actually to the latex question |
| 19:15.17 | Maquis | i just rebooted |
| 19:16.31 | Lone_Wanderer | What's the best way to store appointments in a database, and then retrieve and display them in a format where the display increments are smaller (1/2 hour) than the length of the appointments (3 hours)? |
| 19:16.55 | hans | Lone_Wanderer: with a program. |
| 19:17.05 | Lone_Wanderer | hmmmm... |
| 19:18.55 | Maquis | ha! found it |
| 19:19.02 | Maquis | \parskip=2ex |
| 19:19.49 | Tene | Lone_Wanderer: perl+sqlite |
| 19:19.50 | Lone_Wanderer | I thought latex looked more like CH2:C(CH3)C(CH 3):CH2 ? |
| 19:20.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Tene: I'm using php/mysql, it's the mechanics of it that are stumping me |
| 19:21.19 | Lone_Wanderer | like, should I store a starting and ending time? should I store just the starting time, since they all go three hours? if I only store the start time, how do I know (for any given half hour block) whether to mark it as occupied? |
| 19:21.54 | Lone_Wanderer | aha, I've got it |
| 19:23.10 | Lone_Wanderer | I can iterate through the array of start times, then if the start time is < the block in question && start time + 3 hrs > the block, then it's occupied :) |
| 19:23.17 | hans | Lone_Wanderer: it would depend on what I planned to do with it, but I'd probably store starting time and length (in minutes) |
| 19:23.27 | hans | they may all be 3 hours now, but what if that change? |
| 19:23.40 | hans | start and end time is ok, too, but start/length can be easier to program for. |
| 19:23.48 | Lone_Wanderer | ahh yes, good point |
| 19:24.29 | sjansen | Why doesn't ubuntu have something like packages.debian.org? |
| 19:24.47 | Lone_Wanderer | now I just need an easy way to represent times in a loop |
| 19:24.48 | hans | as for whether it's occupied, halfhourblockbeginning - starttime < length |
| 19:31.46 | neybar | just curious... but for those of you that do contracting type web design what is your hourly rate? |
| 19:32.19 | Lone_Wanderer | at least $35 an hour |
| 19:32.50 | Lone_Wanderer | 'cause when you do contracting, you pay out the nose in taxes |
| 19:35.20 | Lone_Wanderer | (most people I know charge more) |
| 19:39.37 | Maquis | wow... in the past 10 minutes, I've seen 3 different small groups of people walk by speaking chinese amongst themselves... |
| 19:39.59 | hans | Maquis: have you been playing in the tardis again? |
| 19:40.01 | Lone_Wanderer | Communist plot. |
| 19:40.06 | Maquis | hans: ???? |
| 19:40.37 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: :) |
| 19:42.06 | hans | maquis: http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/tardiscam/intro.shtml |
| 19:42.45 | Maquis | hans: haha |
| 19:45.41 | Maquis | doh... i think i printed to downstairs instead of upstairs... |
| 19:45.44 | Maquis | grrr.. |
| 19:45.45 | Maquis | oh well... |
| 19:45.48 | Maquis | anyway, ahve fun |
| 19:46.04 | hans | We iwll |
| 19:51.27 | bucky | who is Max Payne ? |
| 19:51.44 | bucky | http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_2631550 |
| 19:52.24 | Tene | video game character |
| 19:52.51 | bucky | heh |
| 19:55.32 | *** join/#utah hagna (~me@67.50.46.118) |
| 19:55.41 | hagna | I'm starting to learn emacs anyone want to stop me? |
| 19:56.25 | hans | hagna: if you learn lisp at the same time, it will balance out. |
| 20:01.15 | hagna | that' |
| 20:01.18 | hagna | s funny |
| 20:01.24 | hagna | I just did (print "hello world") |
| 20:01.52 | bucky | i always use Jan Borsodi's C/C++ config for emacs at http://www.dotfiles.com/index.php3?app_id=6 |
| 20:04.03 | bucky | but if your distro is mandrake or something then the xemacs is already pretty cool |
| 20:04.15 | tensai | this is why biometric identification is a bad idea |
| 20:04.16 | tensai | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4396831.stm |
| 20:05.16 | bucky | i'm glad they test that new technology in Malaysia first |
| 20:07.01 | tensai | single factor biometrics is *always* a bad idea because you can't replace the key. multi factor is arguable, but I still don't like it |
| 20:08.03 | bucky | tensai, what are you going to do when sorenson research has all your dna information stored at ChoicePoint? |
| 20:09.46 | tensai | won't matter. no way they're getting it while I'm alive |
| 20:10.12 | bucky | what if you're a suspect in a crime? |
| 20:11.04 | tensai | hmm. good point. guess I'll have to adopt a never-take-me-alive-coppers attitude |
| 20:20.45 | *** join/#utah LeviHome (~levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 20:29.54 | vontrapp | mmmmmm, molé |
| 20:30.46 | jsmith | mmmmm, sushi |
| 20:34.37 | sjansen | mmmm, limao |
| 20:38.54 | LeviHome | Yay, my actiontec is alive now, and it seems to work somewhat correctly after the firmware upgrade. |
| 20:38.59 | LeviHome | Time to go back to work. |
| 20:55.14 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 20:55.29 | levi | Back at work. |
| 20:55.36 | levi | It's niiiice outside. :) |
| 20:55.53 | levi | Drove the Miata to work with the top down. |
| 20:58.23 | levi | Apparently there's a new Software Engineer II position open here. |
| 20:59.31 | levi | The job is preparing vendor-supplied distros for cluster integration. |
| 20:59.56 | levi | There's also a senior Java programmer position open. |
| 21:00.17 | levi | If anyone wants more info, let me know. |
| 21:08.10 | *** join/#utah mooneroid (~mooneroid@jmoon.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:25.31 | *** join/#utah Tene_ (~tene@c-67-182-199-40.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:28.32 | hans | Firewalls can be so stupid |
| 21:29.07 | tene | as can trendnet wireless routers. |
| 21:29.20 | levi | As can Actiontec DSL modems. |
| 21:29.32 | hans | 150+lines from shorewall for this box that doesn't even listen on any ports that aren't opened on the firewall in the first place |
| 21:29.34 | levi | Mine seems to be behaving itself now, though. |
| 21:29.38 | hans | DUH! |
| 21:30.14 | hans | ~lart shorewall |
| 21:31.36 | tene | ... |
| 21:31.49 | tene | wow, my ssh connection survived my router freaking out and being power cycled. |
| 21:32.34 | synic | how do I configure sendmail to allow anyone to relay mail as long as they have a system username and password? |
| 21:32.53 | hans | synic: um, by using something other than sendmail? |
| 21:33.01 | hans | I'm sure it's doable, though |
| 21:33.10 | synic | I can't use something other than sendmail unfortunately |
| 21:33.46 | synic | unless it would seemlessly pick up all mail that everyone already has on the system in sendmail |
| 21:35.38 | Lone_Wanderer | My creation... |
| 21:35.45 | Lone_Wanderer | it's... it's ALIVE! |
| 21:42.24 | vontrapp | what would be the best way to open all files in a directory in a ruby script? |
| 21:42.56 | vontrapp | the only thing i know of is to do an `ls` and run a .each on the rows returned by that |
| 21:43.10 | hans | Dir.glob |
| 21:43.19 | hans | ri |
| 21:43.58 | hans | see the source of clog for examples. :) |
| 21:43.59 | vontrapp | ah, way cool |
| 22:07.03 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-210.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 22:47.01 | *** join/#utah tene (~tene@c-67-182-199-40.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:50.08 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (~hatchmt@host62-52.nersc.us) |
| 23:17.04 | mrpull | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/31/hp_hurd_salary/ |
| 23:17.21 | mrpull | the headline made me think that HP was dropping 20M into GNU/Hurd :) |
| 23:17.31 | mrpull | that would be nice. |
| 23:23.30 | shadoi | and incredibly stupid. |
| 23:27.28 | vontrapp | gaah, apache is putting out some encoding headers when dealing out eruby stuff and i can't override it |
| 23:27.46 | mrpull | shadoi: are you new here? |
| 23:29.26 | shadoi | not exactly. |
| 23:30.23 | vontrapp | what can i put in the httpd.conf to specify what encoding i want? |
| 23:31.16 | shadoi | AddEncoding x-gzip .gz .tgz |
| 23:31.19 | shadoi | for example |
| 23:31.30 | *** part/#utah hatchmt (~hatchmt@host62-52.nersc.us) |
| 23:32.08 | vontrapp | so... AddEncoding UTF-8 .rhtml ? |
| 23:32.44 | shadoi | no, that's not the same thing |
| 23:33.17 | shadoi | usually you can just add .utf8 to the end of the filename |
| 23:41.59 | vontrapp | AddDefaultCharset utf-8 |
| 23:45.08 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 23:45.26 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 23:59.31 | levi | Hrm. Hosting my own dns looks like it's going to be problematic. |