| 00:00.56 | levi | Lone_Wanderer: Why don't you turn your wandering back to cool programming languages? ;) |
| 00:01.18 | Lone_Wanderer | because I want to bash futurists for a while |
| 00:01.41 | levi | Singularity-type futurists? |
| 00:03.02 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 00:05.15 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 00:05.40 | levi | Time for me to spin. |
| 00:09.52 | Lone_Wanderer | Some magician should do the cutting-in-half trick, only use fake blood to make it look like he messed up. |
| 00:10.25 | Lone_Wanderer | have the girl start screaming, etc. give the audience a good scare. |
| 00:10.44 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: haha |
| 00:11.17 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:11.21 | goozbach | Lone_Wanderer: been done |
| 00:11.30 | Lone_Wanderer | figures |
| 00:11.47 | brailsmt | then someone should come along and do a documentary for Fox that tells how magicians do their tricks... |
| 00:11.54 | goozbach | don't remember who however |
| 00:11.56 | brailsmt | oh, wait... |
| 00:12.25 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:12.28 | *** part/#utah joshc (~joshc@65.37.125.194) |
| 00:13.30 | goozbach | and then after the "when magicians attack" show they could do a show set in califorina, which features half-dressed females all having horrible cross-dating drama. |
| 00:14.30 | goozbach | hey! I'm just stating the facts |
| 00:15.45 | goozbach | IT's poker night! It's poker night! Beware the poker! |
| 00:16.00 | Lone_Wanderer | what's cross-dating? |
| 00:19.45 | Maquis | is emcnabb going home already??? |
| 00:34.17 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~scott@216.126.221.115) |
| 00:35.31 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 00:41.07 | spr | dang amarok is cool |
| 00:43.41 | spr | ignoring the skipping |
| 00:45.34 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-67-161-242-223.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:46.12 | Lone_Wanderer | hey, I have a hypothetical networking question |
| 00:46.36 | Lone_Wanderer | let's say you're running a network over a large area, say an entire campus |
| 00:47.01 | Lone_Wanderer | and someone comes along and runs cat5 from one computer to a bunch of different routers across campus |
| 00:47.38 | Lone_Wanderer | would it be possible for that computer to spoof packets to make it look like they're coming from another machine that's connected to any one of those routers? |
| 00:54.16 | Tene | yep |
| 01:02.53 | Lone_Wanderer | would it be possible to write a virus that grabs info about new security exploits off a web server and incorporates them into its arsenal of attacks? |
| 01:19.12 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: that would be cool |
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| 01:25.25 | *** join/#utah mrpull_ (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 01:25.28 | levi | It's good exercise. |
| 01:25.45 | levi | It was only 45 minutes or so. |
| 01:27.09 | levi | The more I spin, the more fun I'll have riding outside when the weather's nice. |
| 01:30.13 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@kite.zmonkey.org) |
| 01:34.39 | Maquis | ~lart SpecialK |
| 01:35.41 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 01:36.23 | levi | That's the problem with KDE and gnome apps these days. |
| 01:38.24 | Maquis | yeah |
| 01:38.37 | Maquis | since i don't use either, i really don't wnat to install the giant libraries and such |
| 01:39.03 | Maquis | question: is /usr/portage/distfiles something that would cause problems if the files inside were deleted |
| 01:39.06 | Maquis | ? |
| 01:40.29 | levi | You'd have to ask someone who uses Gentoo. |
| 01:42.41 | SpecialK | If you HATE Java with a passion, you should sharpen your knives... |
| 01:42.41 | SpecialK | and then attend. |
| 01:44.00 | levi | Attend? |
| 01:46.59 | tensai | bryan's probably bringing a gun and therefore isn't worried |
| 02:00.43 | levi | Is there some sort of meeting tonight? |
| 02:01.04 | *** join/#utah usynic (~synic@c-67-172-242-219.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:02.39 | tensai | plug meeting in april |
| 02:06.40 | Maquis | [sekhmet tmp] Eterm |
| 02:06.41 | Maquis | Eterm: Error: can't open display :0.0 |
| 02:06.41 | Maquis | [1] + exit 1 Eterm |
| 02:06.44 | Maquis | huh???? |
| 02:07.31 | levi | Is the meeting about Java? |
| 02:08.21 | Maquis | levi: yup |
| 02:08.32 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 02:08.36 | Maquis | nothing can open the display |
| 02:08.38 | Maquis | but... |
| 02:08.44 | Maquis | i didn't do anything to cause it |
| 02:08.51 | Maquis | and the things that are already open seem to work fine |
| 02:08.55 | Maquis | so... ummm... |
| 02:09.21 | Maquis | [sekhmet erins] firefox |
| 02:09.21 | Maquis | (firefox-bin:10343): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display: |
| 02:09.21 | Maquis | [1] + exit 1 firefox |
| 02:09.42 | levi | Sure you didn't cause it. |
| 02:10.11 | Maquis | i... i... i don't think so... |
| 02:10.17 | Maquis | *sniff* |
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| 02:10.21 | levi | What's DISPLAY set to? |
| 02:10.35 | Maquis | [sekhmet cs345] echo $DISPLAY |
| 02:10.36 | Maquis | :0.0 |
| 02:11.02 | Maquis | that's correct, isn't it? |
| 02:11.06 | levi | Well then, that doesn't seem to be the problem. |
| 02:11.26 | mheath | I wish I had about $250 more. I bought a cell phone today.....The Treos they had on display were mocking me :D |
| 02:11.44 | tensai | Maquis: xauth list |
| 02:11.52 | levi | Cell phones are money sinks. I need to cancel my service. |
| 02:12.03 | mheath | Mines $10. I can't complain. |
| 02:12.04 | Maquis | tensai: what am i looking for there? |
| 02:12.11 | levi | Treos are cool, though. |
| 02:12.18 | Maquis | (and if it's an auth problem, shouldn't root be able to open something?) |
| 02:12.28 | levi | Maquis: No, X doesn't care if you're root. |
| 02:12.29 | mheath | Though I did just blow $1.99 to get a tolerable ring tone. |
| 02:12.29 | tensai | no necessarily |
| 02:12.44 | Maquis | tensai: ok... so, what am i looking for... |
| 02:12.45 | levi | Maquis: X only cares if you're authorized via its system. |
| 02:12.59 | levi | Maquis: In a terminal, try xhost + |
| 02:13.32 | Maquis | [sekhmet cs345] xhost + |
| 02:13.33 | Maquis | xhost: unable to open display ":0.0" |
| 02:14.16 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 02:14.17 | mheath | Question. Anyone know some multi-platform benchmarking software? |
| 02:14.19 | levi | It looks like you don't have permission to your x server. |
| 02:14.31 | levi | What'd you do?! |
| 02:14.35 | mheath | Benchmarks stuff like OpenGL operations, heavy computations, etc. |
| 02:14.55 | levi | mheath: Quake? ;) |
| 02:15.05 | Maquis | my guess is that something in /tmp was actually being used... |
| 02:15.09 | mheath | Please tell me "rm -rf /tmp/*" isn't about to be said :D |
| 02:15.09 | levi | Oh, yes. |
| 02:15.16 | Maquis | hmm... |
| 02:15.17 | levi | Maquis: Don't do that. :) |
| 02:15.29 | Maquis | :) |
| 02:15.44 | mheath | We upgraded our ancient "Family Share Plan" and added me onto it |
| 02:15.46 | levi | I was happy with my phone when I actually talked on it. |
| 02:16.02 | levi | Now I feel like I'm wasting $50/month. |
| 02:16.05 | mheath | My brother moved to Michigan a few years ago, took his phone (on this plan) with him... |
| 02:16.13 | Maquis | why keep it in /tmp if it's needed? |
| 02:16.22 | levi | Maquis: That's what /tmp is for! |
| 02:16.23 | Maquis | especially with a cryptic name that doesn't say that it's needed |
| 02:16.33 | levi | Maquis: Stuff that's temporary, but needed. |
| 02:16.44 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:16.57 | Maquis | it'd be nice if it either only had important things, or if it removed things when it was done or something! |
| 02:17.00 | tensai | it has plenty of things that are too |
| 02:17.14 | tensai | debian cleans /tmp and /var/tmp on boot up |
| 02:17.39 | Maquis | meh... |
| 02:17.40 | mheath | /var/tmp.....Yeah! Another redundancy. |
| 02:17.43 | levi | Yeah, boot up is a pretty safe time to clean, before you start programs that stick things there. |
| 02:17.45 | mheath | What fun. |
| 02:18.10 | tensai | not always redundant. consider when / and /var are separate partitions. |
| 02:18.15 | Maquis | oh well, i learn new things all the time... :) |
| 02:18.48 | Maquis | why is there a /var/tmp/portage, and a /usr/tmp/portage? |
| 02:18.55 | mheath | Why are all these ringtones so annoying!? |
| 02:18.59 | tensai | I went through my "delete everything" phase too |
| 02:19.09 | levi | mheath: Because they're created for teenage girls. |
| 02:19.10 | tensai | mheath: so you'll notice them? |
| 02:19.11 | Maquis | and /usr/tmp/kcore.swp and /var/tmp/kcore.swp |
| 02:19.28 | Maquis | tensai: i wouldn't be in this phase if i had more room on this computer |
| 02:19.35 | levi | And other foolish people with disposable income. |
| 02:19.44 | tensai | Maquis: funny, that's the same reason I went through mine |
| 02:20.07 | Maquis | what exactly are the kcore.swp files in /var/tmp and /usr/tmp? |
| 02:20.13 | tensai | I like the ones that sound like traditional analog phones |
| 02:20.27 | levi | I made my ringtones sound like phones ringing, too. |
| 02:20.32 | mheath | None of mine do... |
| 02:20.35 | Maquis | hey... look at that... |
| 02:20.45 | Maquis | /usr/tmp is a symbolic link to /var/tmp... |
| 02:20.48 | Maquis | that's silly |
| 02:20.51 | mheath | theres some that pretend to sound like traditional analog phones, but their high pitched and just as annoying as "Stars and Stripes Forever" |
| 02:20.57 | levi | mheath: If you look hard enough, you can find freely downloadable ones. They're not in very high demand though, apparently. |
| 02:21.14 | mheath | levi, not for my phone |
| 02:21.28 | Maquis | mheath: what phone did you get? |
| 02:21.30 | mheath | Mines like a cheap, special model that only verizon uses. You *have* to use verizon's service with it. |
| 02:21.43 | mheath | I checked...spent the last two hours looking for free ones for it. |
| 02:21.48 | mheath | Maquis, LG VX3200 |
| 02:22.29 | mheath | The problem is that it can't send/receive ringtones in any of the "standard" ways |
| 02:22.49 | mheath | The ringtones have to be embedded in some horrible extension to the text message system |
| 02:23.20 | mheath | Haha, me too. |
| 02:23.29 | mheath | And that treo on display at the Verizon place was taunting me. |
| 02:23.31 | Maquis | my mom has one... :) |
| 02:24.37 | tensai | heh. mine's a vx3200 too. |
| 02:24.42 | levi | The camera on the treo sucks. |
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| 02:25.07 | Maquis | ~lart emcnabb |
| 02:25.27 | Maquis | emcnabb: question: /usr/portage/distfiles/: is the stuff in there bad to delete? |
| 02:25.29 | mheath | http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/LG_VX3200/4535-6454_16-30907904.html?tag=top |
| 02:25.34 | mheath | My phone |
| 02:25.58 | mheath | Maquis, you can delete it |
| 02:26.06 | Maquis | mheath: ok... thanks :) |
| 02:26.11 | mheath | just where source tarballs are stored when their downloaded by portage |
| 02:26.12 | Maquis | what is it, exactly? |
| 02:26.15 | Maquis | oh |
| 02:26.17 | Maquis | ok... |
| 02:26.22 | mheath | if the softwares installed, though, they're no longer really needed |
| 02:26.25 | Maquis | and so what was all the stuff in /usr/portage/tmp? |
| 02:26.35 | mheath | I *think* thats where the stuff is built at |
| 02:26.38 | mheath | Don't quote me on that, though |
| 02:26.41 | Maquis | oh |
| 02:26.43 | Maquis | ok |
| 02:26.47 | mheath | IE: |
| 02:26.50 | Maquis | why does portage take up so much space? |
| 02:27.06 | tensai | because source builds take up a lot of space |
| 02:27.07 | mheath | Maquis, because by default it does a horrible job of cleaning up after itself |
| 02:27.12 | levi | Maquis: Compiling crap takes up tons of space. |
| 02:27.22 | levi | And tons of time. |
| 02:27.28 | tensai | as levi will attest, cross compiling is even worse |
| 02:27.36 | levi | Oh yes. |
| 02:27.39 | Maquis | but, it seems like it'd be really easy to go in, compile, and the rm |
| 02:27.50 | Maquis | ls |
| 02:27.51 | mheath | Yes.... |
| 02:27.52 | Maquis | oops |
| 02:27.56 | mheath | But portage dosn't do that by default. |
| 02:28.11 | mheath | Infact, I'm not sure there's a way to *get* portage to clean up after itself |
| 02:28.14 | Maquis | wow! |
| 02:28.16 | bonez41 | can I use gpg with mutt/mail/mailx? |
| 02:28.22 | mheath | All the people I know that have automatic cleaning do it via cron |
| 02:28.22 | Maquis | that freed up 10% of my hard drive! |
| 02:28.35 | mheath | rm -rf /usr/portage/distfiles/ ? |
| 02:28.42 | Maquis | that's stupid |
| 02:28.46 | tensai | mutt and gpg get all just fine. I don't know the details though. |
| 02:28.47 | levi | You've got to keep on top of debian, too, or it'll cache all the .debs it's ever downloaded. |
| 02:28.52 | Maquis | it should do it itself |
| 02:28.53 | tensai | s/all/along/ |
| 02:29.06 | mheath | Anyone here look into Gar Ports? |
| 02:29.21 | Maquis | bonez41: i know it works with mutt |
| 02:29.46 | Maquis | mheath: for a moment, i thought you were asking about car parts |
| 02:29.55 | mheath | Hahaha. |
| 02:30.09 | mheath | Gar Ports == Very similar to BSD Ports, but better in several ways |
| 02:30.18 | mheath | Also uses GNU Make rather than BSD's pmake |
| 02:30.19 | bonez41 | Maquis, ok....do you run mutt much? or mail or something else? |
| 02:30.30 | tensai | speaking of that, anybody else listen to Car Talk? I just started recently. Cool show. |
| 02:30.30 | Maquis | bonez41: mutt |
| 02:31.17 | bonez41 | Maquis, I have a friend in Happy Valley who is all of a sudden concerned about email privacy...I told him we need to setup gpg on his computer and mine and then exchange keys... |
| 02:31.35 | Maquis | uh huh... |
| 02:31.40 | tensai | http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Mutt-GnuPG-PGP-HOWTO.html |
| 02:31.54 | Maquis | ooh... that's cool! |
| 02:32.06 | bonez41 | thanks tensai |
| 02:32.32 | tensai | I've set it up before but I long since abandoned it. I use Evolution now which has gpg enabled by default. |
| 02:33.37 | bonez41 | I run tbird most of the time, but I like the speed of mutt or mail or mailx...just Bammmm and it's off..without waiting to load up all the pretty gui... |
| 02:33.57 | Maquis | i borrowed other people's muttrc files |
| 02:34.20 | bonez41 | I have a rudimentary muttrc file set up....that was the toughest part to get mutt working |
| 02:34.41 | Maquis | go to emcnabb, amcnabb or spr's sites... they have nice muttrcs |
| 02:35.45 | bonez41 | tensai, is 'mutt' the same as 'mutt-i'? that howto refers to mutt-i |
| 02:35.56 | Maquis | i think my muttrc is mostly like emcnabbs, but my appearance was stolen from spr's |
| 02:36.27 | tensai | I think it's referring to an earlier era when strong crypto was a No-No(tm) |
| 02:36.31 | bonez41 | mutt-i is international? |
| 02:36.38 | bonez41 | ok.... |
| 02:37.31 | tensai | I assume so. as in the version that is from a non-us source and thus can be distributed to other non-us recipients. |
| 02:39.47 | *** part/#utah misterpull (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:41.55 | levi | Heh, Paul Graham's new venture firm is called Y Combinator. How scheme-geeky. :) |
| 02:42.50 | bonez41 | at the risk of sounding ignernt (utah spelling) ..who's Paul Graham? |
| 02:43.52 | levi | Founder of ViaWeb and the guy who brought us Bayesian spam filters. |
| 02:44.13 | levi | Also a vocal Lisp evangelist. |
| 02:44.22 | tensai | the original article is A Plan for Spam, I believe, if you want to read it |
| 02:44.55 | levi | He's apparently switched back to Apple, too. |
| 02:48.40 | levi | Anyway, the Y combinator is this funky way in which you can create an anonymous recursive function. |
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| 02:49.51 | levi | Hmm, the guys in the lab are cheering. I think they got something to work. |
| 02:50.43 | tensai | or maybe the pizza arrived |
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| 02:52.48 | levi | Nah, they had Mexican food earlier. |
| 02:55.55 | fishyfire | which lab? |
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| 03:06.56 | levi | The lab at work. |
| 03:23.10 | levi | Wow, the high-rated comments on the /. response to Paul Graham's Mac essay were all pretty much pro-Mac. |
| 03:23.17 | levi | How /. has changed... |
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| 03:51.40 | Maquis | :( |
| 04:18.05 | LeviHome | Maquis: Why the sad face? |
| 04:18.13 | LeviHome | Woo, I have 1.5mbit DSL now! |
| 04:19.23 | Maquis | LeviHome: it's not working |
| 04:19.32 | Maquis | i'm just frustrated... |
| 04:19.35 | Maquis | but tis ok |
| 04:19.37 | LeviHome | Your FAT project? |
| 04:19.41 | Maquis | yeah |
| 04:19.48 | Maquis | it's only due in 2.5 hours |
| 04:20.00 | LeviHome | I understand a lot of people end up turning it in late. |
| 04:20.11 | Maquis | yeah |
| 04:20.18 | Maquis | it's still annoying, though |
| 04:20.26 | LeviHome | Yay, SLIME works again! |
| 04:20.30 | Maquis | when i run dir, it only shows the first thing in the list |
| 04:21.42 | tensai | I didn't have much luck with FAT either. I got it working eventually but I don't recall how late. |
| 04:22.58 | Maquis | :( |
| 04:23.25 | Maquis | i want to get it done and in, so that i can do my other projects |
| 04:26.51 | Maquis | i also still can't get printing working correctly for some reason from my laptop, and i can't figure out what i changed and how i changed it |
| 04:27.16 | Maquis | it used to pretty much just see my print server over on my desktop, and i don't recall doing any setup for it |
| 04:27.24 | Maquis | but now, it doesn't see a server, and i'm not sure why |
| 04:33.14 | bonez39 | Maquis: check your email |
| 04:34.02 | brailsmt | hah, this SDL sierpinksi renders much faster than the one I did in java a few years ago... |
| 04:34.30 | LeviHome | Go figure. :) |
| 04:34.40 | LeviHome | One you wrote in java now would probably render much faster, too. |
| 04:35.02 | LeviHome | Man, David Byrne listens to some bizarre stuff. |
| 04:35.13 | brailsmt | LeviHome: yeah, and i bet it would have taken a lot fewer lines of code... |
| 04:35.24 | Maquis | bonez39: saw it :) nice :) |
| 04:35.54 | brailsmt | since this sdl bit is only 150 lines, the java one was like 850, IIRC, it was one of the first java apps i ever wrote |
| 04:35.54 | LeviHome | brailsmt: Did it in C? Are there Ruby SDL bindings? |
| 04:35.59 | brailsmt | s/java// |
| 04:36.04 | brailsmt | LeviHome: yes |
| 04:36.26 | LeviHome | brailsmt: Yes to both? |
| 04:36.30 | brailsmt | i want try to get my foot in the game industry, so I am beginning to mess around with SDL... |
| 04:36.35 | brailsmt | LeviHome: yes, yes to both |
| 04:36.47 | Maquis | sdl? |
| 04:36.54 | brailsmt | dev-ruby/ruby-sdl (0.9.1): Ruby/SDL: Ruby bindings for SDL |
| 04:37.19 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 04:37.19 | LeviHome | Maquis: A cross-platform multimedia layer, developed initially for games. |
| 04:37.38 | Maquis | Specification and Design Layer or Simple DirectMedia Layer? |
| 04:37.44 | LeviHome | The latter. |
| 04:37.47 | Maquis | ok |
| 04:38.23 | LeviHome | I'm happy that I can listen to 128kbit music streams now. |
| 04:38.35 | Maquis | where do you find your streams? |
| 04:39.08 | LeviHome | Right now, from iTunes. |
| 04:39.21 | LeviHome | Otherwise, from word of mouth. |
| 04:39.32 | LeviHome | I like the somafm stations and Radio Paradise. |
| 04:39.39 | Maquis | you can get iTunes streams in linux? |
| 04:39.46 | LeviHome | I'm using OS X at home. |
| 04:39.49 | Maquis | oh... |
| 04:40.01 | bonez39 | how does one get conference streaming? anyone have the link handy? |
| 04:40.14 | LeviHome | But most of the iTunes ones are just regular mp3 shoutcast streams. |
| 04:40.38 | LeviHome | bonez39: lds.org? |
| 04:40.45 | Maquis | bonez39: you going for watching with the #utah play-by-play? |
| 04:41.12 | tensai | http://byubroadcasting.org/generalconf/ |
| 04:41.34 | LeviHome | I have a tv in my bedroom. I don't even have to get out of bed to watch conference. ;) |
| 04:41.47 | tensai | yeah, that always works well |
| 04:42.21 | bonez39 | Maquis: something like that... |
| 04:42.29 | Maquis | :) |
| 04:42.56 | mheath | Ugh, general conference... |
| 04:43.14 | mheath | Although, granted, they tend to not say too much that I can't agree with at general conference. |
| 04:54.34 | brailsmt | mheath: too many negatives... |
| 05:30.49 | LeviHome | Man, Radio Paradise is cool. |
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| 05:32.46 | tensai | I concur |
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| 07:07.29 | Maquis | wow... small group :) |
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| 07:11.36 | Maquis | SpecialK: you still up? |
| 07:34.58 | Lone_Wanderer | Your roommates ever get the stove lit? (That was you, right?) |
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| 07:47.15 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:47.22 | Maquis | whether it's done safely is a different question :) |
| 07:48.05 | Lone_Wanderer | well, at least you're alive |
| 07:49.42 | Maquis | :) |
| 07:49.48 | Maquis | always a good thing |
| 07:50.00 | Maquis | i promised someone i'd go to bed by 3... |
| 07:50.11 | Maquis | that'll be a full hour earlier than last night! |
| 07:54.30 | levi-laptop | You have a gas stove? |
| 07:54.35 | Maquis | yup |
| 07:54.49 | Maquis | only one of the burners turns on correctly |
| 07:55.21 | Maquis | if we're really lucky, patient, and don't mind having the entire kitchen smell strongly like gas, we can occasionally get one of the others to turn on... |
| 07:55.32 | Lone_Wanderer | Are you sure that's safe? |
| 07:55.42 | Maquis | personally, i don't like the idea of filling the room up with gas... so, i just stick with one burner |
| 07:55.43 | levi-laptop | I wish I had a gas stove. |
| 07:56.21 | Lone_Wanderer | Don't you have a box of matches or something? |
| 07:56.31 | Maquis | and now that ashley has devised her system, i'm curious whether the paper towel system or the sitting-there-filling-room-with-gas system is safer |
| 07:56.34 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: dunno |
| 07:56.43 | Lone_Wanderer | paper towel |
| 07:56.59 | Lone_Wanderer | less potential to explode, killing everyone in the room. |
| 07:57.08 | Maquis | yeah... that's my guess... |
| 07:57.26 | Maquis | with the paper towel, i think there's a higher chance of her hurting herself, but there's less danger of death, etc |
| 07:58.05 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah, well. choice between some singed finger hairs and some singed... curtains, and upholstery, and skin |
| 07:58.15 | Lone_Wanderer | Ow my skin! |
| 07:58.22 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: no kidding... |
| 08:01.18 | Lone_Wanderer | grrrr. the UI choices that this site is making me make are not happy fun design choices. |
| 08:01.25 | Lone_Wanderer | they are sad, mean choices. |
| 08:01.33 | Maquis | ick |
| 08:02.36 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess I'll go with the ugly code, pretty interface option. |
| 08:02.47 | Maquis | ick |
| 08:02.50 | Maquis | what language? |
| 08:04.27 | Lone_Wanderer | ummmmm |
| 08:04.41 | Lone_Wanderer | PHP *cough* |
| 08:04.53 | Maquis | ah... |
| 08:05.14 | Maquis | out of curiosity, why do you hve to choose either nice code or nice interface? |
| 08:05.28 | Maquis | are you doing something where the UI is already written? or what? |
| 08:05.35 | Lone_Wanderer | well |
| 08:05.46 | Lone_Wanderer | it's on a web page, obviously, so my choices are limited |
| 08:05.57 | Maquis | understandable |
| 08:06.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I need to list a set of items, and let the user assign a number to each one |
| 08:07.16 | Lone_Wanderer | the page is arranged in five columns, two on the left, a tiny middle one, and two on the right. each set of two columns, in other places on the page, is used for a string on the left and the field on the right. |
| 08:07.41 | Lone_Wanderer | but the equipment doesn't really fit that scheme |
| 08:08.01 | Maquis | wow... that's a slightly crazy design |
| 08:08.04 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess I could put it inside its own table |
| 08:08.10 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't come up with it |
| 08:08.16 | Maquis | yeah |
| 08:08.18 | Maquis | i understand... |
| 08:08.29 | Maquis | at least you have some choices... |
| 08:08.32 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 08:09.28 | levi-laptop | I tend to think that web pages allow greater freedom in programming language than a lot of other app domains. |
| 08:09.47 | Lone_Wanderer | they dont' give you a lot of freedom as far as designing your gui though |
| 08:09.58 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess it's not bad all told, what with CSS and so forth. |
| 08:10.11 | Maquis | levi-laptop: is it possible to use languages like C and such on the web? and how? |
| 08:10.26 | Lone_Wanderer | but this particular design I'm working with isn't put together with flexibility in mind |
| 08:10.30 | levi-laptop | Maquis: Sure. Apache is written in C, after all. |
| 08:10.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Maquis: what kind of intern? |
| 08:11.36 | levi-laptop | Maquis: You can also write cgi programs in C. |
| 08:11.46 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: past 3 years, wrote VB/ASP (and a tiny bit of PHP and 1 function of C#) for a set of medical clinics (there were something on the order of 20 clinics in one of the companies, and 8 or 9 for the other company) |
| 08:12.03 | levi-laptop | Not that I'd want to. |
| 08:12.20 | Maquis | i did most of my work for the larger company, which had > 200 doctors, iirc |
| 08:12.43 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 08:12.55 | Maquis | levi-laptop: so, i'm guessing people don't use languages like C for web stuff because it gets ugly? |
| 08:13.11 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: yeah... would've been cooler to do something besides ASP/VB... |
| 08:13.22 | Maquis | i was offered the position for a 4th summer, but i turned it down. |
| 08:13.41 | Lone_Wanderer | well, experience is experience |
| 08:13.42 | Maquis | they say that if i'm interested, i can have a full-time position when i graduate... |
| 08:14.07 | Maquis | i know the developers there, and the systems all pretty well... |
| 08:14.11 | Lone_Wanderer | you a CS major? |
| 08:14.14 | levi-laptop | Maquis: Because the other options are fast enough, and allow much greater programmer productivity. |
| 08:14.15 | Maquis | yeah |
| 08:14.19 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 08:14.20 | Maquis | levi-laptop: ah... |
| 08:14.44 | Maquis | Lone_Wanderer: it was actually kinda funny, my second year, the last week that i was there, they got a contractor |
| 08:14.55 | levi-laptop | In the early days of the WWW, quite a few cgi scripts were written in C. |
| 08:15.23 | Maquis | when i came back for the third summer, i still knew the systems better than the contractor (who they had hired full-time during the time i was at school) |
| 08:15.32 | Lone_Wanderer | wow |
| 08:15.38 | Lone_Wanderer | was he slacking, or just stupid? |
| 08:16.12 | Maquis | i don't know... |
| 08:16.25 | Maquis | my guess is that if it was either of those issues, they likely wouldn't've hired him full-time |
| 08:16.48 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahhhh, so you're saying you're just unusually brilliant ;) |
| 08:17.04 | Maquis | i'm not completely certain at what point they actually hired him full-time, so he might not have gotten exceptionally involved in a lot of the things until that point |
| 08:17.42 | Maquis | also, at that point, we had been working with the same company for the same number of months, but i had started over a year before him. (if that makes sense at all) |
| 08:18.09 | Maquis | i did get a laugh out of the fact that he was confused by a specific quirk of the databases there... |
| 08:18.19 | Lone_Wanderer | because you went on break to go back to school? |
| 08:18.26 | Maquis | yeah... |
| 08:18.29 | Lone_Wanderer | yeah |
| 08:18.36 | Maquis | i worked summers there... |
| 08:18.44 | Maquis | usually just under 4 months |
| 08:18.47 | Lone_Wanderer | nodnod |
| 08:19.03 | Maquis | and since he had been taken in as a contractor at the end of one of the summers, when i got back, he had been there for 8 months |
| 08:19.14 | Maquis | and prior to that point, i had had 2 summers of 4 months... |
| 08:19.34 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 08:19.43 | Maquis | he hadn't worked on as wide a variety of projects, either... he worked primarily on one project |
| 08:19.50 | Maquis | and i got just about anything that they needed done |
| 08:20.08 | Maquis | so, i had experience with more of the systems... |
| 08:20.08 | Lone_Wanderer | that makes sense then |
| 08:20.15 | Maquis | anyway, our databases had a really funny quirk |
| 08:20.20 | Lone_Wanderer | k |
| 08:20.34 | Maquis | so, they had originally been set up in access |
| 08:20.48 | Maquis | (before they realized that they needed a real database, i guess) |
| 08:20.53 | Lone_Wanderer | right |
| 08:21.02 | Maquis | in access, boolean fields are handled interestingly: |
| 08:21.04 | Lone_Wanderer | or they thought access *was* a real db |
| 08:21.09 | Maquis | 0 = true, -1 = false |
| 08:21.35 | levi-laptop | Weird. |
| 08:21.43 | Maquis | when you import an access "db" into sql server, it handles this fact by keeping the 0, and then switching the -1 to a 1 |
| 08:21.48 | Lone_Wanderer | weird |
| 08:21.57 | levi-laptop | Even weirder. |
| 08:21.58 | Maquis | so, in all of our databases, for bit fields, 0 was true, and 1 was false |
| 08:22.10 | Lone_Wanderer | heh |
| 08:22.22 | Maquis | i was lucky enough to be around when this guy found out about this fact |
| 08:22.28 | Lone_Wanderer | ohhh |
| 08:22.31 | Lone_Wanderer | that could have ended badly |
| 08:23.25 | Maquis | he was extremely confused by why we had > 200 inactive physicians, and only about 70 active physicians (and he knew that some of the physicians that were listed as inactive were actually active) |
| 08:23.48 | Lone_Wanderer | lol |
| 08:23.49 | Maquis | i had been lucky enough to deal with this problem my first summer, and so just got a laugh at his reaction |
| 08:24.21 | Maquis | i have to say that i think it's good for new programmers to work at some point in a situation like that company |
| 08:24.37 | Maquis | because of the nature of what we did, there were a few things that really helped me out... |
| 08:24.56 | Maquis | A) there was always somebody checking on things and making sure everything was correct |
| 08:25.16 | Maquis | B) we had dedicated test servers, test data, and everything to ensure that there was no error |
| 08:25.46 | Lone_Wanderer | wow. that's more than probably most% of the jobs I've worked at. |
| 08:25.55 | Maquis | and C) I was learning in an environment where it was extremely essential to make sure that things didn't mess up |
| 08:27.15 | Maquis | they were in the process of completely removing paper charts |
| 08:27.27 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 08:27.51 | Maquis | it was cool to work on critical applications while still brand-new to programming |
| 08:27.51 | Lone_Wanderer | so when a hacker gets in they can cure your arthritis and give you lung cancer :p |
| 08:27.57 | Maquis | :) |
| 08:28.43 | Maquis | my boss was showing me his charts one time to show me something, and he pointed out that whenever he went to a different doctor from his main one, he always had to warn them not to believe everything on his chart |
| 08:29.12 | Maquis | he had X-Rays that were pictures of plants, etc |
| 08:29.21 | Lone_Wanderer | rofl |
| 08:29.27 | Maquis | it was entertaining |
| 08:29.45 | Lone_Wanderer | yay it's working! |
| 08:29.49 | Maquis | yay! |
| 08:29.59 | Maquis | my FAT filesystem still isn't working :( |
| 08:30.23 | Lone_Wanderer | *oldest joke ever* put it on a diet |
| 08:30.29 | Maquis | haha |
| 08:48.06 | Lone_Wanderer | When were you going to go to bed my, Maquis? |
| 08:48.16 | Lone_Wanderer | bed *by*, typo inadvertent I assure you |
| 08:53.16 | Lone_Wanderer | Someone shoot me. I'm contemplating generating javascript with php. |
| 09:21.36 | Maquis | ??? |
| 09:23.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Which part are you ???ing? |
| 09:47.21 | Lone_Wanderer | ...earlier someone said that they were going to bed an hour earlier tonight than last night, wasn't that you? |
| 10:17.21 | Maquis | gnight |
| 16:04.58 | *** join/#utah ibot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 16:04.58 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See plug.org, uug.byu.edu, sllug.org, fslc.usu.edu, etc. | Utah Windows Admins Anonymous: utwaa.org | Vote goozbach for UUG president. |
| 16:04.58 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 16:23.58 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
| 16:30.16 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 16:30.46 | sjansen | " Now, I'm not an analyst, but I would guess community-building only works for companies that don't sue their own customers." |
| 16:31.35 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~josh@josh.dsl.aros.net) |
| 16:31.49 | tensai | sjansen is just jealous because he wanted to sue Linux first |
| 16:32.53 | sjansen | I would have so 0wZ3rd j00 tensai. |
| 16:33.53 | sjansen | "Time-consuming! He doesn't know the half of it. Imagine if they had scanned the documents themselves, instead of just downloading ours." |
| 16:34.32 | levi | Gah, stupid people afraid of a little slush on the road. |
| 16:34.58 | levi | Sure, slowing down is a good idea, but not to 15mph! |
| 16:35.02 | tensai | eek! slush? where? |
| 16:36.05 | sjansen | levi: You talking about point of the mountain? |
| 16:36.10 | levi | Yes. |
| 16:36.19 | levi | And a couple of miles leading up to it. |
| 16:36.43 | levi | Actually, things sped up a bit once I started going uphill at the point. |
| 16:36.57 | levi | Since no one was changing lanes, and a new lane appears on the right. |
| 16:37.23 | levi | Traffic opened up, but everyone was still going 15-20. |
| 16:38.46 | sjansen | PJ is a master of sarcasm. |
| 16:43.38 | goozbach | all sugar-coma hung over |
| 16:44.25 | goozbach | do it |
| 16:44.37 | bonez39 | goozbach: ever keep bees? I hear that beez get that sugar(honey)-coma hung over feeling if the beekeeper blows smoke in the hive.....the bees gorge on honey and get essentially drunk... |
| 16:45.06 | jakea | heh, bees |
| 16:45.20 | sjansen | I love bees. |
| 16:45.28 | sjansen | They're yellow, and they buzz. |
| 16:45.38 | sjansen | buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz |
| 16:45.42 | sjansen | I love bees. |
| 16:45.44 | jakea | sssssh, don't say buzz |
| 16:45.55 | xbmodder | where is ilovebees? |
| 16:46.04 | jakea | another sports team might sue you for using a name that is rightfully theirs |
| 16:46.30 | goozbach | I've got all the soundbites from ilovebees.com... does that count? |
| 16:48.26 | bonez39 | jakea: hmmm Coke...I'd love one this morning..in glass bottle......wow...tasty |
| 16:48.33 | bonez39 | but grapefruit is healthier.. |
| 16:49.04 | sjansen | it also increases the power of caffeine |
| 16:49.22 | sjansen | Just ask goozbach. He's tried to go cold turkey a couple of times. |
| 16:50.47 | jakea | I'm trying the new Lime Coke, I can't make up my mind if I like it or not |
| 16:52.11 | sjansen | Last I'd heard, gooz had planted a grapefruit tree in his back yard and was trying to find Caffeine seed. |
| 16:52.59 | xbmodder | lmao |
| 16:53.18 | xbmodder | can't wait until next month of |
| 16:53.44 | *** join/#utah mrpull (~mrpull@205.158.184.116) |
| 16:59.26 | goozbach | you wouldn't beleive the odd looks I got when I went to the greenhouse last week |
| 17:00.03 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 17:06.32 | levi | Sweet, the devicer I wrote firmware for just got its patent approved, and it showed up in my customized google news: http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/03-30-2005/0003291283&EDATE= |
| 17:11.11 | Jayce^ | saw that in mine too |
| 17:11.32 | Jayce^ | what term found it? my section was just searching 'linux' |
| 17:13.21 | levi | Just Linux in mine, too. |
| 17:21.15 | hans | levi: I saw that and wondered if it had anything to do with you |
| 17:25.06 | levi | Oh, geez. Now I have car lust again: http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=102007 |
| 17:26.51 | Jayce^ | we were looking at that one yesterday here at work, quite nice |
| 17:27.34 | levi | The Elise has been one of my dream cars since I learned about it. |
| 17:27.50 | levi | And, as far as exotic cars go, it's relatively inexpensive. |
| 17:28.05 | levi | So, theoretically, I could actually afford one someday. |
| 17:31.05 | *** join/#utah Tavis (~tavis@c-24-10-237-35.client.comcast.net) |
| 17:31.07 | levi | And what's another $8k, really, for even more fun in your little supercar? :) |
| 17:33.01 | goozbach | sugar sugar sugar!!! Caffeine! |
| 17:33.59 | sjansen | "o I've been calling Thistle a "compiler" sort of to make a point, but mostly because I'm a pedantic windbag who can't resist the opportunity to teach a little lesson to the younguns who think that a compiler has to generate machine code." -- Joel |
| 17:34.14 | levi | The base price is $43k... total price with options (sport package and hardtop) and destination fee is $47.7k |
| 17:36.06 | levi | Which makes it cheaper than a Corvette. |
| 17:36.58 | Jayce^ | that's for this version? |
| 17:37.47 | levi | No, adding $8k probably brings the price up to where the Corvette is. |
| 17:41.18 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~chatzilla@byu081061wks.byu.edu) |
| 17:41.19 | levi | Actually, a convertible Corvette is more expensive. |
| 17:43.07 | levi | Very different sort of beasts, of course. The vette has a 6L 8-cyl engine, while the Elise has a 1.8L 4-cyl. |
| 17:43.29 | Jayce^ | muscle car vs roadster |
| 17:43.35 | Jayce^ | basically |
| 17:44.07 | sjansen | Wow, who woulda thought I'd be converted to Hungarian notation. |
| 17:45.30 | levi | sjansen: Freak. |
| 17:45.58 | Jayce^ | agreed |
| 17:46.11 | Jayce^ | even without the hungarian notation |
| 17:46.20 | Jayce^ | SjansenFreak |
| 17:47.28 | bytheway | Beszelsz magyar? ;-) |
| 17:50.10 | SpecialK | ~lart Maquis |
| 17:50.30 | SpecialK | My brother, and his wife, served in Hungary |
| 17:50.39 | bytheway | really? when? |
| 17:51.06 | SpecialK | ~96 |
| 17:51.25 | bytheway | starting or ending? |
| 17:51.30 | sjansen | http://blogs.msdn.com/ericlippert/archive/2003/09/12/52989.aspx |
| 17:51.34 | SpecialK | ending |
| 17:51.35 | sjansen | http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FogBugzIII.html |
| 17:51.48 | bytheway | I started jan 98, so probably just missed them |
| 17:52.33 | sjansen | http://blogs.msdn.com/rick_schaut/archive/2004/02/14/73108.aspx |
| 17:54.16 | mrpull | whoa does cpp stand for C Preprocessor? |
| 17:54.36 | levi | mrpull: Sometimes, yes. |
| 17:54.50 | mrpull | i always just guessed C Plus Plus :) |
| 17:55.01 | sjansen | part of the reason c++ is is often cc |
| 17:55.03 | mrpull | that's what I get for guessing |
| 17:55.19 | sjansen | or cxx |
| 17:56.19 | mrpull | hungarian notation makes sense, but it is so ugly :) |
| 17:57.08 | mrpull | i suppose it is good that I don't code anything more than simple scripts |
| 17:57.17 | levi | sjansen: The 'sensible' version of hungarian is indeed less heinous than the incredibly lame version. |
| 17:57.48 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@ramona.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:58.39 | levi | cpp is pretty lame. |
| 18:03.02 | levi | And even the nicer version of Hungarian notation makes me feel that it's patching a language deficiency. I recognize the utility, but I think it interferes with the readability and I'd like to see the problem solved in another way. |
| 18:08.02 | SpecialK | language defficiency or programmer defficiency? |
| 18:08.10 | levi | What Hungarian Notation users want is really a more powerful and flexible typing system, where types can be given richer semantics than they currently do. |
| 18:08.15 | Maquis | ~lart SpecialK |
| 18:08.31 | SpecialK | ~lart Maquis |
| 18:08.39 | sjansen | levi: explain |
| 18:10.09 | levi | sjansen: Well, the whole argument rests on the fact that there's semantic information encoded in the notation that is unknown to the compiler. If you could encode the semantic information in the types, then the argument for their version of HN fails on the same grounds that the argument for the weak HN that carries no extra semantics fails on. |
| 18:10.52 | sjansen | okay, I see |
| 18:11.04 | SpecialK | levi: you could make separate types all the time in most languages. |
| 18:11.06 | sjansen | now that you mention it... |
| 18:11.23 | levi | SpecialK: Yes, but that's not enough. |
| 18:11.51 | xbmodder | anyone use any OSS POSes |
| 18:11.52 | levi | You can define new names for types, but that just saves typing. |
| 18:12.15 | SpecialK | What languages include this semantic info? |
| 18:12.30 | xbmodder | the worlds worst language = PHP |
| 18:12.35 | xbmodder | i mean java |
| 18:13.08 | levi | I'm not sure that any do right now, but there's a lot of research being done right now on typing. |
| 18:13.59 | SpecialK | that still doesn't convey immediately the use of a variable. |
| 18:14.55 | levi | If the type is notated fairly close to the use of the variable, then it's irrelevant whether it's in the variable name or not. |
| 18:15.41 | levi | The need for HN is due to the fact that the types used don't convey important semantic information. |
| 18:16.04 | levi | If the types did contain the semantic information, there would be no need to add it to variable names. Plus, the compiler would be able to catch the errors for you. |
| 18:17.18 | levi | The C type system is particularly weak, so HN can be useful for the reasons outlined in the enlightening articles. |
| 18:17.47 | Bradipo | Don't ever tell a girl the reason why things didn't work out with her was her religion. She just might file a lawsuit and force you to marry her. |
| 18:17.55 | xbmodder | whoa pirating music at 150 KB/s |
| 18:18.49 | me | Bradipo: he he |
| 18:18.57 | me | and force you to marry her |
| 18:19.07 | Jayce^ | nah, she'll just sue for the ring :) |
| 18:19.25 | Bradipo | Isn't that what hiring quotas are all about? |
| 18:19.34 | Bradipo | Forcing a company to hire someone that they normally wouldn't? |
| 18:19.38 | me | you're hiring her to be your wife? |
| 18:19.46 | me | oh right |
| 18:19.49 | me | that's dumb |
| 18:19.56 | me | is that only if you are a public company or any company at all |
| 18:20.07 | SpecialK | Jayce^: I've been told that if the man breaks the engagement, she has no obligation to return the ring. |
| 18:20.57 | Bradipo | me: does it matter what kind of a company you are? Whatever happened to at-will employment? |
| 18:21.50 | JoshH | well imo, small sole proprietorships and other small completely private companies should be able to discriminate how they wish, but the public sector and publicly owned companies should not be able to. |
| 18:22.00 | me | forcing a place to hire someone they wouldn't hire is dumb |
| 18:22.07 | Bradipo | What is a ``publically owned'' company? |
| 18:22.19 | me | someone with an ipo |
| 18:22.24 | me | like you, brad |
| 18:22.26 | Bradipo | You mean businessed owned and run by the government? |
| 18:22.38 | JoshH | like a corporation |
| 18:22.49 | Bradipo | I guess our definitions of public differ. |
| 18:22.52 | levi | sjansen: I wish I had better info for you regarding rich type systems, but I've been ignoring that side of things lately as I've been looking at more dynamic languages. |
| 18:22.58 | JoshH | dont get me wrong, im not into affirmative action or anything |
| 18:23.06 | Bradipo | Oh, I understand what you are getting at. |
| 18:23.27 | sjansen | levi: Don't worry. I understood your explanation. Would be interesting to find a way of doing it in current major languages. |
| 18:23.37 | JoshH | if some guy in provo with 8 employees wants to hire nothing but mormons, or some chinese restaurant owner wants to hire all chinese people, thats fine |
| 18:23.51 | Bradipo | A corporation is not owned by the public, it is owned by a small fraction of the public call shareholders. |
| 18:23.55 | JoshH | but if a corporation has a policy that no blacks or women should hold executive positions, thats wrong |
| 18:24.10 | levi | sjansen: I don't think you could, except in the way that CFront added an object system to C and thus created C++. |
| 18:24.21 | bytheway | Bradipo: but its still refered to as a 'publically owned company' |
| 18:24.22 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, but those shares are publically available |
| 18:24.30 | Bradipo | If they had such a policy, that would be bad for them, especially if folks found out. |
| 18:24.42 | levi | sjansen: Unless you consider things like ML and Haskell to be current major languages. |
| 18:25.00 | JoshH | not necessarily. i bet walmart could have a policy like that, and people would still shop there just because of the lower prices. |
| 18:25.12 | Bradipo | Then it obviously isn't a major factor that that public cares about. |
| 18:25.28 | Bradipo | And they obviously approve of said policy or they wouldn't shop there. |
| 18:25.30 | JoshH | which is why a law is needed. :) |
| 18:26.07 | JoshH | slavery was once tolerated because it meant cheaper production. nobody boycotted cotton because they disagreed with it. |
| 18:26.42 | Bradipo | Slavery is an entirely different issue. |
| 18:26.51 | me | yeah it's not comaprable to slavery |
| 18:27.00 | me | or comparable even |
| 18:27.07 | Bradipo | Slavery was wrong because it goes against God given rights. |
| 18:27.11 | me | forcing a company to hire someone they wouldn't hire is wrong |
| 18:27.18 | Bradipo | Working for a company is a privilege, not a right. |
| 18:27.27 | JoshH | im just saying that having no regulation at all will not always lead to an outcome that is right |
| 18:27.32 | Maquis | definitely |
| 18:27.37 | *** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a) |
| 18:27.41 | Maquis | i think that forcing someone to hire someone is wrong |
| 18:27.45 | JoshH | no company should be forced to hire anyone |
| 18:27.50 | JoshH | i agree |
| 18:27.52 | me | or marry someone |
| 18:28.06 | me | like bradipo said |
| 18:28.11 | Bradipo | Well, marriage was ficticious, but still. |
| 18:28.13 | Maquis | they have the choice of who they want to hire, and i don't see how the government can get involved |
| 18:28.17 | Bradipo | Brings up a point. |
| 18:28.20 | levi | sjansen: I think ML's type system is one of the most interesting ones I've come across. It's worth looking into. |
| 18:28.27 | JoshH | im just saying the government, and companies with publically available shares, should not be able to have policies of discrimination. |
| 18:29.03 | me | you must have a good definition of discriminate then |
| 18:29.10 | Maquis | so, they should have policies of counter-discrimination? |
| 18:29.17 | Bradipo | Maquis: If you found out you weren't hired because you were female, what would you do? How about if you found out you got paid less than your co-worker because you were female? |
| 18:29.40 | SpecialK | sjansen: Is there an online reference explaining all the semantics for good apps hungarian? |
| 18:30.11 | Maquis | Bradipo: what about if i found out that i was hired simply because they needed to meet their "quota"? |
| 18:30.19 | Bradipo | Yeah, that too would be offensive. |
| 18:30.23 | JoshH | quotas are wrong too |
| 18:30.26 | JoshH | thats the other extreme |
| 18:30.39 | Bradipo | But does it warrant the government stepping in? We give too much power to *our* (as in we the people) government. |
| 18:30.44 | me | how would you know if you were hired *just* to fill a quota |
| 18:30.48 | me | there are other factors |
| 18:30.49 | me | always are |
| 18:30.56 | Maquis | i mentioned on plug that i've actually had an interviewer in essence say "you're likely to get a job because we try to use interns to fill our quotas" |
| 18:31.01 | Bradipo | me: How would you not know? |
| 18:31.08 | me | hehe |
| 18:31.10 | JoshH | ive definitely worked at places where women and minorities had the job they had just to satisfy HR, and it pisses a lot of people off. |
| 18:31.23 | Maquis | me: when the interviewer practically says it, then i'd say you know that that's going on |
| 18:31.40 | me | Maquis: he said interns not females |
| 18:31.44 | Bradipo | JoshH: But you didn't have to continue working there. You would have left and found a job that didn't do that. |
| 18:31.49 | me | Maquis: yeah ok I agree |
| 18:31.51 | Bradipo | s/would/could/ |
| 18:31.54 | JoshH | oh i didnt sue or anything |
| 18:32.03 | Maquis | me: no... he said that they fill their minority quotas by hiring minorities for the interns... |
| 18:32.15 | Bradipo | JoshH: Why not? :-) |
| 18:32.30 | JoshH | because im not the type of person who does that. :) |
| 18:32.31 | Maquis | i don't get why in the world any of this is even something to think about |
| 18:32.41 | me | well they aren't just hiring any minorities you have to have the skills they want too |
| 18:32.48 | Bradipo | Maquis: That's what I keep thinking. |
| 18:32.53 | *** join/#utah Tene (~tene@c-67-182-199-40.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:32.59 | Bradipo | Thinking only gets you so far though. We have to act. |
| 18:33.03 | JoshH | me: not always, in companies that actually do have quotas |
| 18:33.08 | Maquis | Bradipo: it seems like you should just hire the best person for the job, regardless of everything eles |
| 18:33.21 | Bradipo | Maquis: That's what the free market would dictate. |
| 18:33.29 | Bradipo | But, we don't have a truly free market. |
| 18:33.30 | Maquis | so, why isn't that how it works??? |
| 18:33.48 | Tene | Windows! |
| 18:33.50 | Tene | Gah! |
| 18:33.55 | SpecialK | ~lart sjansen |
| 18:34.03 | Bradipo | Government involvement. Nepotism in the government. |
| 18:34.35 | Maquis | grrr |
| 18:34.47 | Bradipo | Many leaders in our government have their ``pet projects'' that they waste tax-payers dollars on. |
| 18:35.03 | Bradipo | Maquis: don't take my word for it though. I'm somewhat of an eccentric. |
| 18:35.03 | SpecialK | Utopia? |
| 18:35.44 | sjansen | I'm personally opposed to affirmative action for a different reason than most. |
| 18:35.52 | Bradipo | SpecialK: My city doesn't participate in UTOPIA unfortunately. :-) |
| 18:36.05 | sjansen | It robs minorites from the opportunity to achieve real accomplishments. |
| 18:36.30 | sjansen | A friend of mine (female and darker skinned) won a presigious academic internship. |
| 18:36.39 | Bradipo | The logical thing to do would be to move, but in this day and age, maybe I should sue the city for not participating in UTOPIA. |
| 18:36.39 | SpecialK | My streets been dug up already. Just waiting for them to connect it to switches. |
| 18:36.55 | sjansen | When she told her co-workers, they all assumed she recieved it because she was a minority. |
| 18:37.04 | me | that's dumb |
| 18:37.10 | Bradipo | Of course it is. |
| 18:37.31 | SpecialK | Bradipo: Which city? |
| 18:37.33 | me | life isn't fair |
| 18:37.38 | me | it's not supposed to be |
| 18:37.39 | sjansen | I know her well and I know she earned it. In fact, because of her legal status (refuge) she hard to fight extra hard. |
| 18:37.40 | Bradipo | Life shouldn't be fair. |
| 18:37.45 | Maquis | sjansen: yeah... i agree with that one too |
| 18:37.46 | me | hehe |
| 18:37.48 | Bradipo | But we have the right to life. |
| 18:37.53 | Bradipo | Whether or not it is fair. |
| 18:38.00 | Bradipo | SpecialK: Pleasnt Grove. |
| 18:38.00 | Maquis | that's on the list of reasons why i hate affirmative action |
| 18:38.07 | levi | Affirmative action is right because it opposes ingrained tendencies to prejudice in our society, but it is wrong because it helps to perpetuate them as well. |
| 18:38.18 | levi | Ahh, what are we to do? |
| 18:38.24 | sjansen | If she'd been male and white, everyone would have assumed she earned it. Because she isn't, the accomplishment is forever tainted by the question of whether she actually did. |
| 18:38.33 | Bradipo | levi: Right on the nose. The only way to eliminate it is to eliminate it. |
| 18:38.42 | Maquis | levi: i think it was likely good for a period of time where it was necessary. i personally don't think it's necessary at this point... |
| 18:39.15 | me | sjansen: yeah her life continues to be unfair |
| 18:39.15 | levi | Maquis: There's still prejudice, though, as evidinced by sjansen's example. |
| 18:39.29 | sjansen | And because most people will never know about the uphill battle she fought, they'll never know that sex and race weren't what gave it to her. |
| 18:39.30 | me | even thought they tried to make it fair |
| 18:39.42 | levi | It continues to be as relevant as it ever was, yet is self-perpetuating. |
| 18:39.44 | Maquis | levi: yes, i assure you that i know that quite well... |
| 18:39.46 | SpecialK | and I wonder if my wireless DSL gateway will work with it. . . |
| 18:40.04 | Maquis | but i don't thikn that it's currently made worse by affirmative action, rather than being made better |
| 18:40.06 | SpecialK | sjansen: Is there an online reference explaining all the semantics for good apps hungarian? |
| 18:40.17 | levi | Unfortunately, I can't think of any really good institutional ways to fight prejudice. |
| 18:40.27 | Bradipo | SpecialK: It probably will work. |
| 18:40.37 | Maquis | but yes, i do realize that there are still plenty of people who have prejudice... |
| 18:40.44 | sjansen | SpecialK: the Joel article had some good links |
| 18:40.45 | me | maybe the government shouldn't do that kind of thing |
| 18:40.49 | levi | The only really good way is for parents to teach their children not to be prejudiced. |
| 18:41.04 | levi | But prejudiced people are not inclined to do so. |
| 18:41.05 | me | but it takes a village to raise children so .... |
| 18:41.17 | me | </sarcasm> |
| 18:41.30 | Maquis | levi: that's how i've learned about prejudice... but the question is: if we have prejudice, then how are the children going to learn that they shouldn't be prejudiced? |
| 18:41.37 | Tene | "We're all the same; skin color doesn't make any difference." "But then why does everyone treat *him* special?" |
| 18:41.39 | levi | Obviously it's a mess without a clear path to resolution. |
| 18:41.43 | Bradipo | And there is nothing wrong with them having prejudice. As long as they are not infringing your rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. |
| 18:42.29 | Maquis | affirmative action is currently making things worse. i hate to say it, but i've seen far too many instances where people got into schools, etc over someone else because of things like gender, skin color, etc |
| 18:42.58 | me | didn't they consider this would happen before putting the law into effect? |
| 18:43.00 | levi | I miss the discussion about programming languages and strong type systems. |
| 18:43.07 | Bradipo | lol |
| 18:43.17 | Tene | I've known people that have had scholarships just given to them because of race and gender. |
| 18:43.21 | Maquis | the thing is, i realize quite well that affirmative action could quite easily help me to get jobs, but that doesn't change the fact that i hate the fact... |
| 18:43.27 | Maquis | i think it's stupid |
| 18:43.38 | Bradipo | me: They may have, but I doubt it. Do our policy makers ever truly think; or do they merely react to what everyone is screaming at them? |
| 18:43.42 | JoshH | i dont thing being white has ever helped me get a job |
| 18:43.51 | Tene | a girl I know back at byu had a scholarship just because she was a "Female in a Math or Science major" |
| 18:43.51 | Maquis | the one time that i had the interviewer actually say something about it, it made it very clear to me that i didn't want to work there |
| 18:44.14 | me | Michael Jackson is white |
| 18:44.23 | Maquis | google has a scholarship only available to women... |
| 18:44.28 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:44.30 | Bradipo | me: That's amazing actually. |
| 18:44.35 | Tene | My uncle got turned down for law school because he was white. |
| 18:44.43 | me | Bradipo: yeah isn't it |
| 18:44.43 | sjansen | Maquis: I have no problem with that. |
| 18:44.58 | me | Bradipo: it just occured to me the other day that he really was black to start with |
| 18:45.05 | Maquis | sjansen: i'm making the point... i haven't decided my views on the scholarship idea... |
| 18:45.15 | sjansen | Just like I have no problem with scholarship availble only to Irish descendents, or children of parents who worked on Navy subs in WWII. |
| 18:45.18 | Tene | They told him "You're by far one of the most qualified applicants, but you got here a bit too late. We already have as many white students as we can have." |
| 18:45.25 | JoshH | if i was rich, i would start a white male scholarship fund |
| 18:45.31 | Maquis | but as far as giving someone a job or a position or something just because they're female or something like that bugs me... |
| 18:45.45 | Maquis | Tene: ick! |
| 18:45.45 | Maquis | and they told him to his face? |
| 18:45.45 | Tene | Yep. |
| 18:45.47 | JoshH | Tene: what school was that? |
| 18:45.48 | Bradipo | Maquis: Good for google. I don't feel slighted because they are offering a scholarship that I can't receive. |
| 18:45.54 | Maquis | there was actually a supreme-court case regarding pretty much that exact issue |
| 18:45.55 | me | JoshH: you might be ostracized for that |
| 18:45.58 | Tene | I don't recall. |
| 18:46.24 | Bradipo | If this scholarship will help the business and make it more profitable, then all power to them. |
| 18:46.50 | Tene | so... computerish question... |
| 18:47.02 | Maquis | Bradipo: like i said, i'm not sure what i think about it... i think it's definitely better than giving jobs/admission/etc to someone just because they are female (or black, or latino, or whatever) |
| 18:47.03 | me | uh that's a little offtopic think you not? |
| 18:47.16 | Tene | has anyone ever seen Windows just... eat someone's My Documents folder? |
| 18:47.17 | Maquis | yeah Tene... what are you doing asking a computer question??? |
| 18:47.28 | Maquis | Tene: no... but i wouldn't be surprised |
| 18:47.38 | me | did it make munching sounds |
| 18:47.40 | me | ? |
| 18:47.46 | Tene | 'cause all my mother's documents on this computer are just... gone |
| 18:47.53 | SpecialK | mmm, documents |
| 18:47.59 | JoshH | she probably accidentally deleted them |
| 18:48.07 | hans | I have the solution. Everyone forced to go through Michael Jackson surgeries until nobody is sure what color anybody is. |
| 18:48.20 | me | I would hire you hans |
| 18:48.31 | brailsmt | what does at have that cron doesn't? or why would anyone use at. instaed of cron? |
| 18:48.36 | Tene | hans: so the solution is to remove differences? |
| 18:48.49 | me | at is female |
| 18:48.58 | me | cron is male |
| 18:49.15 | sjansen | at runs once, cron runs repeatedly |
| 18:50.14 | xbmodder | me, what the hell? |
| 18:50.35 | me | xbmodder: see previous conversation |
| 18:50.39 | xbmodder | good idea |
| 18:51.47 | xbmodder | at is male, cron is female. |
| 18:52.17 | me | yeah that makes more sense |
| 18:52.23 | me | although cron sounds like a guy |
| 18:52.41 | Bradipo | hans: By the way, Xmission's SpamAssassin assigned an 8.2 rating to your email that you sent. |
| 18:53.05 | Bradipo | Outgoing. |
| 18:53.24 | *** join/#utah Lars-UT (~Lars-UT@67.137.22.94) |
| 18:54.18 | *** topic/#utah by Lars-UT -> The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, sllug.org, fslc.usu.edu, etc. | Utah Windows Admins Anonymous: utwaa.org | Vote goozbach for UUG president. |
| 18:54.42 | levi | hans: There's a short story about that, "Harrison Bergeron", I think. |
| 18:55.02 | levi | hans: By Kurt Vonnegut. |
| 18:57.03 | Lars-UT | I use Gaim with an old MSN acount - looks like the MSN IM service has crapped out again. Can anybody else confirm? |
| 18:58.56 | levi | It just crapped out for me, too. |
| 18:59.30 | JoshH | same here |
| 18:59.35 | goozbach | ditto |
| 18:59.46 | hans | Bradipo: sweet. :) |
| 19:00.23 | Lars-UT | hans: Lemme guess - use jabber instead? |
| 19:01.02 | hans | Lars-UT: absolutely. :) |
| 19:12.54 | Tene | grr... I wish that this wifi card would work under linux |
| 19:15.42 | hans | Tene: you need to find a genie |
| 19:17.07 | Tene | yeah |
| 19:22.47 | sjansen | Yay Brazil!! |
| 19:26.19 | hans | what? |
| 19:26.40 | sjansen | Just read the lastest Slashdot on Brazil's progress with PC Conectado. |
| 19:27.52 | hans | hehe. " |
| 19:27.55 | hans | Stored procedures. Triggers. Views. It's like it'll be a real DB!" |
| 19:27.56 | *** join/#utah Lars-UT (~Lars-UT@67.137.22.94) |
| 19:29.43 | hans | sjansen: perhaps you could summarize. I don't have an NYT account |
| 19:30.25 | sjansen | Brazil's president is pushing for the Govt. sponsored cheap computer to only come with Free software, not a limited version of Windows at a slightly higher price. |
| 19:30.49 | sjansen | "We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly." |
| 19:32.36 | Lars-UT | Brasil has been doing stuff like this for a while by putting telecentros in the middle of the favelas(slums), for example. |
| 19:33.04 | Lars-UT | Said telecentros provide internet access & open source software/OSes. |
| 19:34.15 | sjansen | Yep. Read about them. Almost makes me want to move to Brazil. |
| 19:34.39 | sjansen | But I still worry about the health and educational systems. |
| 19:35.16 | Newsome | ~lart brazil |
| 19:35.29 | sjansen | ~lart Newsome for still not turning in his book review |
| 19:35.36 | Newsome | ouch |
| 19:36.01 | sjansen | Hey! No fair floating away! |
| 19:36.02 | Lars-UT | I wrote a paper on some of the public programs in Brazil a while back: http://rufffamily.com/pub/telecentros-port2020-LarsRasmussen.html |
| 19:36.38 | Lars-UT | those having to do with the internet |
| 19:36.49 | Lars-UT | yep |
| 19:38.31 | sjansen | Brazil sure does seem to love acronyms even more than we do. |
| 19:38.52 | Lars-UT | I'd say long sentences more than acronyms. |
| 19:40.32 | xbmodder | Scud: The other day, in the park, I was wondering why frisbees look bigger and bigger as they get closer to you |
| 19:40.32 | xbmodder | Scud: And then it hit me |
| 19:41.04 | sjansen | Lars-UT: Did you read the news article about a telecentro that was robbed? The citizens of the favela put pressure on the robbers to return everything. They did. |
| 19:41.10 | sjansen | (Wish I had the link.) |
| 19:41.23 | Lars-UT | Wow. |
| 19:41.32 | Lars-UT | Favela Justice. |
| 19:41.54 | Jayce^ | scary favela justice |
| 19:42.05 | Lars-UT | I imagine the community has to be pretty tight to survive, so that kind of thing is possible. |
| 19:42.31 | Lars-UT | Reminds me of our Puritan roots in an odd way. |
| 19:45.05 | Lars-UT | Jayce^: You're familiar w/favelas? |
| 19:46.19 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:46.26 | sjansen | Jayce^ is part mineiro. |
| 19:46.29 | Jayce^ | had a few in areas |
| 19:46.37 | Jayce^ | uai! |
| 19:46.43 | Jayce^ | só |
| 19:46.58 | sjansen | Vou lhe dizer um trem. |
| 19:47.10 | Jayce^ | que trem bobo |
| 19:47.34 | Lars-UT | Que chato para os outros - vamo-lá! |
| 19:50.25 | *** join/#utah alphahawk (~alphahawk@70.56.105.158) |
| 20:07.11 | goozbach | blah |
| 20:41.07 | *** join/#utah ggundy (~gabe@208.187.28.250) |
| 20:43.11 | ggundy | Anyone else find that google.com doesn't resolve? |
| 20:43.42 | ggundy | I've tried it now on 3 name servers. Everything else works. |
| 20:47.36 | Tene | tene@corktooth:~ $ host google.com |
| 20:47.37 | Tene | google.com has address 216.239.37.99 |
| 20:47.37 | Tene | google.com has address 216.239.57.99 |
| 20:47.37 | Tene | google.com has address 216.239.39.99 |
| 20:50.37 | tensai | is it October 20th? |
| 20:51.15 | neybar | I need to put a message on my phone that requires users to google for their answer before they get to me. |
| 20:53.41 | tensai | if nobody's going to bite, I guess I'll just explain. My phone, which has a rudimentary PIM built in, just alerted me that I have a meeting at 2:00 on Oct. 20th. |
| 20:54.13 | tensai | perhaps there's some sort of temporal distortion in here |
| 20:54.57 | neybar | lol |
| 20:55.02 | ggundy | [gabe@wa ~]$ host yahoo.com |
| 20:55.02 | ggundy | yahoo.com has address 216.109.112.135 |
| 20:55.03 | ggundy | yahoo.com has address 66.94.234.13 |
| 20:55.03 | ggundy | [gabe@wa ~]$ host google.com |
| 20:55.03 | ggundy | ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached |
| 20:55.17 | tensai | dig google.com +trace |
| 20:55.18 | neybar | google is working great for me |
| 20:55.31 | ggundy | anyway, I got people coming in the door telling me the internet is broken. |
| 20:55.53 | sjansen | ggundy: Did you break the Internet again? |
| 20:56.25 | ggundy | if it's not me then it's IE. |
| 20:56.37 | neybar | *waves hand* the internet is not broken... this is not the tech you are looking for. |
| 21:01.43 | Bradipo | ggundy: It's entirely possible, and indeed likely, that google has screwed up their DNS yet again. |
| 21:02.01 | Bradipo | Thus making their site disappear for the duration of their incompetence. |
| 21:02.24 | Bradipo | I see this happening with increased frequency on a number of different sites. |
| 21:02.55 | Bradipo | time.nist.gov disappeared yesterday for me. |
| 21:03.23 | Bradipo | Turns out they had a downed NS server and there was no way to lookup their NS records until the current NS record had expired. |
| 21:03.34 | ggundy | niec |
| 21:03.35 | ggundy | nice |
| 21:04.08 | Bradipo | Looks like google is no longer using Akamai. |
| 21:04.37 | Bradipo | I am getting a CNAME www.l.google.com when I lookup www.google.com |
| 21:06.51 | JoshH | google works fine for me too |
| 21:08.18 | Bradipo | ggundy: What are you getting? |
| 21:08.56 | Bradipo | dig a www.google.com returns what? |
| 21:09.11 | Bradipo | By the way, I get different answers altogether when just querying google.com instead of www.google.com |
| 21:09.28 | brailsmt | do all filesystems in /etc/fstab get mounted at boot? |
| 21:09.52 | JoshH | brailsmt: unless the noauto option is there, ya |
| 21:09.53 | Bradipo | Generally, unless there is a noauto statement in the options. |
| 21:10.38 | sjansen | brailsmt: no |
| 21:11.43 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
| 21:11.52 | *** join/#utah joshc (~joshc@65.37.125.194) |
| 21:12.21 | brailsmt | so what are the exceptions? |
| 21:12.49 | sjansen | see the comments by JoshH and Bradipo |
| 21:13.31 | brailsmt | yeah, but i have a situation where smbfs filesystems are not being mounted... |
| 21:13.40 | brailsmt | and there is no noauto option... |
| 21:13.52 | tensai | have you tried adding "auto"? |
| 21:14.10 | tensai | does it come up with no errors if you manually mount it? |
| 21:14.14 | ggundy | ; <<>> DiG 9.2.5 <<>> a www.google.com |
| 21:14.15 | ggundy | ;; global options: printcmd |
| 21:14.15 | ggundy | ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached |
| 21:16.02 | Bradipo | ggundy: Sounds like you aren't even able to connect to your own name servers? |
| 21:16.16 | Bradipo | What's in your /etc/resolv.conf |
| 21:16.27 | ggundy | no - everything else works find |
| 21:16.30 | Bradipo | Oh. |
| 21:16.45 | Bradipo | What about dig ns google.com |
| 21:16.53 | Bradipo | Do you at least get an answer to that? |
| 21:17.52 | sjansen | Man, the constanst steam of update packages for FC3 is insane. |
| 21:18.13 | sjansen | I've decided to suggest that we create our own distro: Guru Linux. |
| 21:18.15 | brailsmt | fc3 is isane... |
| 21:18.20 | brailsmt | ...ly stupid |
| 21:18.22 | brailsmt | :) |
| 21:18.26 | brailsmt | kidding... |
| 21:18.30 | sjansen | It will have zero updates to each release. |
| 21:18.47 | ggundy | Bradipo: connection timed out; no servers could be reached |
| 21:18.53 | sjansen | For our initial release, I think thinking about shipping a magic marker and a rock. |
| 21:19.07 | sjansen | "Guru Linux -- It even runs on a rock!" |
| 21:19.12 | Bradipo | dig @216.239.34.10 a google.com |
| 21:19.45 | Bradipo | What about: dig any google.com |
| 21:20.26 | ggundy | that works |
| 21:20.40 | Bradipo | Which? |
| 21:20.47 | ggundy | 2nd |
| 21:20.52 | Bradipo | What did it return? |
| 21:21.26 | Bradipo | dig has an ANSWER section. |
| 21:21.46 | Bradipo | What answers did you get? |
| 21:22.07 | ggundy | ANSWER SECTION, AUTHORITY SECTION, ADDITIONAL SECTIONs |
| 21:22.20 | Bradipo | Right, but that records were returned? |
| 21:22.31 | Bradipo | Were there any records in the ANSWER section? |
| 21:24.26 | ggundy | yeah - I just didn't want to blast everyone with them... |
| 21:24.35 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 21:24.47 | Bradipo | Well, did you get an A record? |
| 21:24.51 | Bradipo | Did you get a CNAME record? |
| 21:26.07 | ggundy | http://pastebin.ca/8495 |
| 21:26.23 | Bradipo | Interesting. |
| 21:26.36 | Bradipo | All the answers you got were referrals to other NS records. |
| 21:27.04 | Bradipo | But if you do: dig a google.com |
| 21:27.06 | Bradipo | You get nothing? |
| 21:30.20 | *** join/#utah ggundy (~gabe@208.187.28.250) |
| 21:30.32 | ggundy | back ;) |
| 21:30.44 | ggundy | sure I get something: |
| 21:30.48 | ggundy | connection timed out; no servers could be reached |
| 21:30.55 | levi | sjansen: This book might be interesting to you if you can find it in a nearby library: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/attapl/ |
| 21:33.50 | *** join/#utah `vex (nwood@c-24-2-94-14.client.comcast.net) |
| 21:34.31 | *** join/#utah chilton (~chilton@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 21:35.32 | chilton | hello goozbach |
| 21:36.17 | chilton | ~lart goozbach |
| 21:36.52 | chilton | ~whaleslap goozbach |
| 21:36.56 | ibot | ACTION slaps goozbach upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 21:37.37 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:38.31 | Newsome | the cavity creeps |
| 21:38.41 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:38.50 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:40.30 | *** join/#utah chilton (~chilton@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 21:42.50 | Bradipo | ggundy: Maybe you should setup your own DNS resolver instead of using ELI's: http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/run-cache-x.html |
| 21:43.11 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 21:43.12 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 21:44.33 | sjansen | Every time I install more than 50 updates and reboot successfully I count my lucky stars |
| 21:46.08 | tensai | sjansen: do you put your stars in your star pocket like Dora? |
| 21:47.24 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:47.33 | sjansen | oo, me stands transfixed looking at the pretty gaim-guifications |
| 21:47.59 | ggundy | Bradipo: No problems for 3 years and a long list of things to do first. ;) |
| 21:48.10 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:48.19 | bucky | what's this on sjansen ? |
| 21:48.43 | bucky | joshc, totally awesome computers |
| 21:48.54 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:48.58 | ggundy | no TAC! |
| 21:49.08 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:49.14 | bucky | of course3 |
| 21:49.26 | ggundy | didn't see that |
| 21:49.27 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:49.41 | bucky | joshc, weren't you here yesterday? |
| 21:49.43 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:49.57 | ggundy | they once told me a *had* to have a floppy and windows with my new system. |
| 21:50.07 | ggundy | 2 things I gave up years ago |
| 21:50.10 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:50.10 | sjansen | they're a favorite target of people that know more than a little bit about computers |
| 21:50.11 | bucky | sjansen, what are you running gaim on? |
| 21:50.12 | tensai | joshc: I assume by "seen" you mean "been disgusted by" |
| 21:50.30 | sjansen | bucky: Ubuntu |
| 21:50.33 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:50.45 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:51.05 | tensai | the owner has a poor rating with the BBB, that should tell you a lot |
| 21:51.06 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:51.13 | bucky | sjansen, how do you like ubuntu so far ? |
| 21:51.32 | bucky | joshc, i'm good |
| 21:51.35 | sjansen | It's the first Debian install that doesn't hate me. |
| 21:51.48 | mrpull | ubuntu scored some negative points with me last night. |
| 21:51.57 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:52.12 | mrpull | the installer detected (and used) my atheros wifi durning the install |
| 21:52.33 | bucky | joshc, about 280 miles.. some people think that's super far |
| 21:52.34 | mrpull | but of course it wasn't installed when I rebooted |
| 21:52.49 | sjansen | The Ubunut installer earned no points with me. |
| 21:52.50 | mrpull | (it is in the restricted packages) |
| 21:53.00 | sjansen | Had to wrestle it a bit to get onto this computer. |
| 21:53.38 | mrpull | i'd had good luck with it in the past (on older hardware) |
| 21:54.00 | mrpull | after I dropped my grudge and plugged into the wired net it was easy to resolve |
| 21:54.41 | *** join/#utah chilton (~chilton@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 21:55.59 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:57.35 | Jayce^ | joshc, what scale are you looking at? |
| 21:57.45 | Jayce^ | and what kind of testing do you expect? |
| 21:58.01 | bucky | joshc, desktop or server ? |
| 21:58.12 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:58.17 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:58.21 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:58.36 | Jayce^ | surprised you are willing to look at local companies for anything like that. |
| 21:58.55 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:58.57 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:59.09 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:59.14 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:59.20 | goozbach | sjansen: if you'd use a 'supported' arch... |
| 21:59.22 | Jayce^ | linux networx, if you are looking at that kind of computing, but otherwise, I don't know any truly good shops for that |
| 21:59.34 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:59.37 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:59.48 | Jayce^ | no, they don't, but they are the only ones that do that type of hardware support around here |
| 22:00.18 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:00.42 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:00.49 | Jayce^ | how big of servers? |
| 22:01.04 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:01.04 | bucky | joshc, my ex brother in law is gordon morrell.. he works in IT at UVCC... you want me to call him? |
| 22:01.19 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:01.20 | Jayce^ | most hardware shops I know of, and like, still wouldn't do as much of that as you would like |
| 22:01.24 | bucky | he also runs his own busines |
| 22:04.05 | ggundy | jsmith: I think it might have been perms in the tftp dir. |
| 22:04.31 | jsmith | ggundy: Cool! So it's all working now? |
| 22:05.30 | ggundy | I got another Cisco phone upto SIP ver 6.3 but will not go to 7.3 - diff phone but same prob - I think. |
| 22:06.02 | ggundy | do you think I have to step it up one ver at a time? |
| 22:08.54 | ggundy | jsmith: I notice P0S3-06-3-00.bin also has a P0S3-06-3-00.sb2 and everything up does to. |
| 22:11.59 | jsmith | ggundy: Yes, you probably do. |
| 22:12.22 | jsmith | ggundy: Once they get to 6.3, then they've gotta use the new "Universal Loader" stuff. |
| 22:16.16 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (bradipo@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 22:16.21 | ggundy | I see - I thought I was being smart and edited OS79XX.TXT.73 to match the format of the others... |
| 22:27.08 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 22:29.23 | jsmith | ggundy: That's what you get for trying to apply logic where it obviously doesn't belong. |
| 22:29.30 | jsmith | ggundy: We are talking Cisco, after all... |
| 22:31.36 | ggundy | jsmith: true. Any idea why it is asking for P0S3-07-3-00.sbn when I have P0S3-07-3-00.sb2? |
| 22:31.51 | ggundy | sbn vs. sb2? |
| 22:32.37 | ggundy | wait... found this... http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk+phone+cisco+79xx |
| 22:35.45 | *** join/#utah Peregrine (~lamontp@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 22:36.20 | ggundy | I got it now. Wow only about 10 times harder then it should be. |
| 22:37.25 | jsmith | Exactly. |
| 22:37.39 | jsmith | Like I said -- you're trying to apply logic where it doesn't apply. |
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| 22:37.59 | ggundy | I'll remember that. |
| 22:41.34 | brailsmt | anyone know of a firefox extension that allows you to edit mouse gestures? |
| 22:49.37 | bucky | http://perso.wanadoo.fr/marc.boullet/ext/extensions-en.html |
| 22:49.49 | bucky | http://www.calmar.ws/firefox/index.php |
| 22:54.31 | sjansen | ~lart chilton |
| 23:06.06 | Maquis | sjansen: ??? |
| 23:06.24 | goozbach | sweet! my backdrop now changes every 10 minutes |
| 23:06.29 | goozbach | XFCE++ |
| 23:06.33 | Maquis | mine does too |
| 23:15.46 | sjansen | http://www.divergentlines.com/misc/nofrigginclue.png |
| 23:17.15 | levi | sjansen: Nice bunny. |
| 23:19.39 | hans | actually, that bunny has two pancakes. |
| 23:21.39 | sjansen | ~pancake hans |
| 23:23.20 | bucky | why is Haskell nhc98 faster than Scheme MzScheme ? |
| 23:25.12 | levi | Oh, geez: http://www.rexfeatures.com/features/516925/ |
| 23:27.52 | bucky | built by an eccentric New York priest as the ultimate safety vehicle |
| 23:28.03 | bucky | it was like the volvo of it's day |
| 23:29.07 | bucky | But its most peculiar safety feature was the seats that swivelled 180 degrees so before a crash those inside could turn round and take the impact backwards. |
| 23:29.09 | levi | But WAY uglier. |
| 23:29.33 | bucky | why didn't nascar think of that? |
| 23:29.55 | sjansen | levi: that's sick |
| 23:30.18 | hans | I don't think it's that ugly. I've seen a lot of uglier cars |
| 23:30.30 | hans | it looks fairly british for some reason |
| 23:30.35 | levi | bucky: I would guess that Haskell's faster due to to a smarter compiler. |
| 23:31.06 | levi | hans: It looks like a caricature of a British car. |
| 23:31.10 | bucky | i was just kidding after the big discussion yesterday.. which was good |
| 23:31.11 | Bradipo | bucky: Did the seat rotate automatically or did you have to anticipate an accident and then cause the seat to rotate? |
| 23:31.25 | bucky | Bradipo, good question |
| 23:32.01 | bucky | "I agreed to pay 1,500 dollars and I had to pay another 2,000 dollars to get it shipped over here from New York. |
| 23:32.10 | bucky | "When I first saw it in real life I took a deep breath and thought to myself "what have you done?" |
| 23:33.22 | bucky | "It was as if Father Juliano never wanted it to work - possibly that's because of all my swearing. |
| 23:34.22 | levi | hans: The scoop on the front is awful enough to make the rest of it irrelevant. |
| 23:35.55 | bucky | that's a feature ! |
| 23:36.24 | bucky | it's rubber filled and acts as a cushion in case of a collision |
| 23:38.39 | levi | I would rather have a nice-looking car and not hit pedestrians. |
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| 23:55.18 | *** part/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
