irclog2html for #utah on 20050329

`00:00.17`	`vontrapp`	`ah, that's what it was, the body was full width, and the containing element inside was what was fixed width.`
`00:03.41`	`statik`	`bbiab`
`00:12.32`	`*** join/#utah fishyfire (~fishyfire@65.105.158.130.ptr.us.xo.net)`
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`01:08.23`	`stuporgl1e`	`hgfhgfexit`
`01:38.25`	`*** join/#utah mooneroid_ (~mooneroid@jmoon.dsl.xmission.com)`
`02:02.42`	`tensai`	`sunbird?`
`02:28.25`	`*** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net)`
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`03:12.20`	`Maquis`	`\`
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`04:13.43`	`brailsmt`	`isn't sunbird, mozilla's calendar app?`
`04:18.54`	`Maquis`	`brailsmt: yup`
`04:19.24`	`Maquis`	`and it seg-faults whenever i want to turn it on (and i've even rebooted in between)`
`04:34.57`	`TML`	`Maquis: Do you have a ~/.mozilla/sunbird ?`
`04:35.32`	`Maquis`	`yup`
`04:35.37`	`Maquis`	`and it seems to have everything it should`
`04:35.52`	`TML`	`Try moving it out of the way and see if sunbird will start`
`04:36.08`	`TML`	`If your profile gets hammered, moz apps can't start`
`04:36.33`	`Maquis`	`still seg faults`
`04:37.01`	`tensai`	`Maquis: time to pull out gdb`
`04:37.20`	`Maquis`	`tensai: and do what?`
`04:37.25`	`Maquis`	`it's not set up with debugging information`
`04:37.27`	`TML`	`blech...it's hard to get a useful backtrace out of gdb`
`04:37.38`	`TML`	`Or, rather, out of the mozilla framework`
`04:38.38`	`Tene`	`strace?`
`04:38.51`	`TML`	`That might have something useful`
`04:39.04`	`TML`	`"strace -fF"`
`04:39.29`	`Maquis`	`what am i looking for?`
`04:39.38`	`TML`	`What it's doing when it dies`
`04:42.40`	`Maquis`	`TML: i'm sorry... i don't understand any of this`
`04:42.49`	`*** join/#utah JoshH (~josh@josh.dsl.aros.net)`
`04:42.54`	`Maquis`	`this line looks like it might be related:`
`04:43.04`	`Maquis`	`--- SIGCHLD (Child exited) @ 0 (0) ---`
`04:43.04`	`Maquis`	`waitpid(-1, 0xbfffeb4c, WNOHANG) = -1 ECHILD (No child processes)`
`04:43.04`	`Maquis`	`sigreturn() = ? (mask now [])`
`04:43.18`	`Maquis`	`a little before that it has:`
`04:43.31`	`Maquis`	`Process 9841 resumed`
`04:43.31`	`Maquis`	`Process 9851 detached`
`04:43.31`	`Maquis`	`<... waitpid resumed> [{WIFSIGNALED(s) && WTERMSIG(s) == SIGSEGV}], 0) = 9851`
`04:43.31`	`Maquis`	`fstat64(2, {st_mode=S_IFCHR\|0620, st_rdev=makedev(136, 1), ...}) = 0`
`04:43.31`	`Maquis`	`mmap2(NULL, 4096, PROT_READ\|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE\|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 0xb7e7e000`
`04:43.34`	`Maquis`	`write(2, "/usr/bin/sunbird: line 392: 985"..., 71/usr/bin/sunbird: line 392: 9851 Segmentation fault $mozbin "$@"`
`04:43.37`	`Maquis`	`) = 71`
`04:43.46`	`Maquis`	`TML: does any of that help????`
`04:44.00`	`Maquis`	`i could stick the whole thing over at pastebin?`
`04:44.07`	`TML`	`do that`
`04:46.09`	`Maquis`	`how bout just the last 3 or 4 pages? :)`
`04:47.35`	`Maquis`	`TML: http://pastebin.com/264180`
`04:48.05`	`Maquis`	`(sorry i'm not more help... i wish i understood all of this stuff, but it just looks like gobbledygook to me)`
`04:50.03`	`*** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net)`
`04:50.33`	`*** part/#utah LeviHome (~levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com)`
`04:53.06`	`TML`	`It's not obvious from that strace what's going on`
`04:53.27`	`TML`	`Have you tried purging your sunbird install and starting fresh?`
`05:00.39`	`*** join/#utah LeviHome (~levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com)`
`05:00.51`	`LeviHome`	`Good evening.`
`05:03.02`	`*** join/#utah Mecworks (~marc@208.186.182.173)`
`05:03.54`	`*** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (~xbmodder@adsl-67-117-130-251.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)`
`05:04.12`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`is hitting on your best friends 15 year old mormon cousin a bad idea?`
`05:06.13`	`dataw0lf`	`not if you're under 18.`
`05:18.28`	`Maquis`	`TML: sorry... i ran off to find food`
`05:18.34`	`Maquis`	`dataw0lf: huh?`
`05:18.56`	`dataw0lf`	`wasn't speaking to you.`
`05:19.00`	`Maquis`	`TML: if i do that, i lose all of my calendar, right?`
`05:19.20`	`Maquis`	`dataw0lf: ah... it was still a moderately interesting comment, though`
`05:19.54`	`dataw0lf`	`<xbmodder_lappy> is hitting on your best friends 15 year old mormon cousin a bad idea?`
`05:20.09`	`Maquis`	`ah...`
`05:20.45`	`dataw0lf`	`h-u-m-o-r`
`05:20.50`	`Maquis`	`:)`
`05:21.00`	`dataw0lf`	`;)`
`05:23.51`	`TML`	`Maquis: No, the actual calendar data should be in your profile`
`05:23.57`	`Maquis`	`ok`
`05:24.04`	`Maquis`	`and that is in the folder i just backed up, right/`
`05:24.08`	`TML`	`Right`
`05:24.11`	`Maquis`	`ok`
`05:24.38`	`TML`	`Besides, what good is calendar data if you cannot open your sunbird? :P`
`05:24.45`	`Maquis`	`so, i should be able to emerge -C sunbird-bin, and then emerge sunbird-bin`
`05:24.47`	`Maquis`	`and it might work?`
`05:25.09`	`TML`	`Couldn't answer that`
`05:25.15`	`TML`	`Not a gentoo user`
`05:25.19`	`Maquis`	`ah... :)`
`05:25.58`	`bigdog_ut`	`TML, yes it should`
`05:26.09`	`Maquis`	`:)`
`05:26.46`	`TML`	`I tried to run gentoo on a spare box once. I got sick of waiting for it to finish compiling after the second week. :)`
`05:26.54`	`Maquis`	`TML, are you new here, or have you changed names?`
`05:27.02`	`TML`	`Maquis: I'm new here`
`05:27.06`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`dataw0lf, i did. there not aloud to date until 16 as i found in the car.`
`05:27.08`	`Maquis`	`cool! welcome!`
`05:27.12`	`Maquis`	`are you living in utah?`
`05:27.12`	`TML`	`Thanks. :)`
`05:27.42`	`TML`	`Maquis: Yes. I've been a Linux user in Utah for the past 7 years or so, and never thought to look into any LUGs`
`05:27.50`	`bigdog_ut`	`Maquis, you should of started at stage 3`
`05:27.54`	`Maquis`	`really? that's cool`
`05:28.03`	`Maquis`	`bigdog_ut: why?`
`05:28.09`	`bigdog_ut`	`faster`
`05:28.14`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`TML, Sup?`
`05:28.15`	`Maquis`	`or was that for tml?`
`05:28.17`	`bigdog_ut`	`which stage did you start at`
`05:28.26`	`Maquis`	`i started at stage 1, but i didn't have any problems`
`05:28.26`	`bigdog_ut`	`for u Maquis`
`05:28.34`	`dataw0lf`	`Debian.`
`05:28.38`	`TML`	`dataw0lf: Indeed`
`05:28.49`	`dataw0lf`	`TML: word.`
`05:28.57`	`dataw0lf`	`word.`
`05:29.05`	`dataw0lf`	`hm, maybe I should check the Ubuntu Forums.`
`05:29.22`	`dataw0lf`	`thank you bigdog_ut.`
`05:29.26`	`bigdog_ut`	`i still respect you in the morning dataw0lf`
`05:29.50`	`TML`	`Maquis: I was at Bainshare last week, and SLLUG/PLUG had a booth there, or I would never have ended up here. :)`
`05:30.08`	`dataw0lf`	`bigdog_ut: for the much money, you should.`
`05:30.12`	`dataw0lf`	`s/the/that`
`05:30.25`	`Maquis`	`TML: which day were you there? all week?`
`05:30.31`	`Maquis`	`i got to go up for friday....`
`05:30.33`	`bigdog_ut`	`oh yeah...`
`05:30.55`	`TML`	`Maquis: I was there all week, but I'm a Novell employee, so it was pretty easy to get in. :)`
`05:31.02`	`Maquis`	`ah... cool!`
`05:31.15`	`Maquis`	`that was my first time at a Linux thing...`
`05:31.17`	`dataw0lf`	`a Novell employee. yet a Debian fan.`
`05:31.21`	`dataw0lf`	`true dat.`
`05:31.27`	`TML`	`dataw0lf: ssssshhhh ;)`
`05:31.36`	`dataw0lf`	`;)`
`05:31.49`	`TML`	`I was a debian fan long before Novell ever dreamt of owning SuSE. :)`
`05:32.04`	`dataw0lf`	`hehe.`
`05:33.00`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`Nooooooooooo!`
`05:33.04`	`bigdog_ut`	`dataw0lf is still in the closet...he want to dist-upgrade-gentoo`
`05:33.11`	`dataw0lf`	`Ha, yeah right.`
`05:33.36`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`if != gentoo ; die`
`05:33.39`	`bigdog_ut`	`i do like ubuntu some...i run debian on some servers`
`05:33.48`	`bigdog_ut`	`xbmodder, what the hell is that`
`05:34.08`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`if you are not gentoo die`
`05:34.13`	`bigdog_ut`	`lol`
`05:34.24`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`if != gentoo ;then die; fi`
`05:34.36`	`bigdog_ut`	`u mean if distro != gentoo; die`
`05:34.51`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`del bigdog_ut.logic`
`05:35.01`	`bigdog_ut`	`lol`
`05:35.44`	`dataw0lf`	`sounds about right for a gentoo user.`
`05:35.47`	`dataw0lf`	`doesn't know how to script.`
`05:35.50`	`dataw0lf`	`:)`
`05:35.53`	`bigdog_ut`	`lol`
`05:35.55`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`we don`
`05:35.56`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`we don`
`05:36.04`	`dataw0lf`	`oh, trust me, I know.`
`05:36.08`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`we don't need to, our distro does it for us.`
`05:36.10`	`bigdog_ut`	`but we know deep down inside...I AM THE BIGDOG!`
`05:36.11`	`dataw0lf`	`all Gentoo users think they're programmers though.`
`05:36.18`	`dataw0lf`	`Look ma, I know what compiling is!`
`05:36.32`	`bigdog_ut`	`look ma, no brain`
`05:36.34`	`dataw0lf`	`bigdog_ut: you're the exception.`
`05:36.37`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`dataw0lf, mama i just killed a man`
`05:36.40`	`TML`	`heh`
`05:36.46`	`bigdog_ut`	`;)`
`05:36.46`	`TML`	`dataw0lf: Can I quote you on that?`
`05:36.54`	`dataw0lf`	`TML: feel free.`
`05:36.59`	`dataw0lf`	`Now I must watch Seinfeld.`
`05:37.18`	`bigdog_ut`	`look ma, apt-get internet`
`05:37.54`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`rm -rf seinfeild`
`05:38.03`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`i know i spelled it wrong`
`05:38.13`	`*** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@c-67-169-254-149.client.comcast.net)`
`05:38.32`	`bigdog_ut`	`find . -type f -name 'dataw0lf' \| xargs shred`
`05:40.48`	`Maquis`	`it still seg-faults!!!!`
`05:41.02`	`Maquis`	`emcnabb: hi!!!!!`
`05:41.05`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`you wanna play 20 questions?`
`05:41.35`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`#20q is the room`
`05:41.55`	`*** join/#utah spr (~spr@c-67-161-219-228.client.comcast.net)`
`06:02.46`	`Maquis`	`TML: found the fix finally: apparently now, you have to start it as sunbird -calendar instead of just sunbird`
`06:02.49`	`Maquis`	`go figure`
`06:02.53`	`Maquis`	`no idea why that works...`
`06:10.29`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah`
`06:10.39`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah`
`06:10.39`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:10.40`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`h utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah ut`
`06:10.45`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`ah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah u`
`06:10.50`	`*** part/#utah xbmodder_lappy (~xbmodder@adsl-67-117-130-251.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)`
`06:10.52`	`*** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (~xbmodder@adsl-67-117-130-251.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)`
`06:11.00`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`tah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah utah uta`
`06:11.04`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`crap`
`06:23.38`	`levi-laptop`	`Anyone awake?`
`06:23.57`	`Maquis`	`levi-laptop: yeah... but if it's a question, i doubt i'll be much help :)`
`06:24.17`	`levi-laptop`	`Nope, just bored.`
`06:24.21`	`levi-laptop`	`Can't sleep.`
`06:24.27`	`Maquis`	`ah...`
`06:24.33`	`Maquis`	`why are you trying to sleep already?`
`06:25.00`	`levi-laptop`	`Because my wife goes to bed at 10:30, so I usually try to as well.`
`06:25.36`	`Maquis`	`wow...`
`06:25.38`	`Maquis`	`bed at 10:30`
`06:25.40`	`Maquis`	`that'd be nice`
`06:26.48`	`levi-laptop`	`Well, it's not so bad when I can get to sleep.`
`06:26.52`	`Maquis`	`yeah`
`06:26.57`	`tensai`	`when my wife is around we try to get to sleep before 11`
`06:26.59`	`Maquis`	`what time do you get up in the morning`
`06:27.01`	`Maquis`	`??`
`06:27.13`	`tensai`	`she's been out of town this month`
`06:28.29`	`levi-laptop`	`My alarm goes off around 7:30.`
`06:28.41`	`levi-laptop`	`I get out of bed around 8-8:30. ;)`
`06:28.57`	`xbmodder`	`levi, hey`
`06:29.00`	`xbmodder`	`levi-laptop, hey`
`06:30.48`	`levi-laptop`	`I was on a schedule like that for a while. I got a lot more time on my computer...`
`06:31.18`	`Maquis`	`i want sleep`
`06:33.32`	`levi-laptop`	`Well, get to bed earlier or wake up later. :)`
`06:33.42`	`levi-laptop`	`I'm reading about erlang.`
`06:33.49`	`Maquis`	`that would be great, except...`
`06:35.48`	`levi-laptop`	`Well, then you probably shouldn't spend your time reading about erlang.`
`06:40.24`	`Maquis`	`no... i'm going to just keep the status quo, where i know nothing about erlang`
`06:40.51`	`Maquis`	`unfortunately, in the status quo, i also have no idea how i would go about doing this cs project`
`06:41.48`	`levi-laptop`	`What project?`
`06:41.54`	`Maquis`	`FAT-1`
`06:42.14`	`Maquis`	`the first half of implementing a FAT-12 filesystem`
`06:44.31`	`*** join/#utah SpecialK_ (~Scott@byu081062wks.byu.edu)`
`06:44.37`	`Maquis`	`~lart SpecialK_`
`06:44.45`	`SpecialK_`	`~lart Maquis`
`06:45.06`	`Maquis`	`SpecialK_: haven't you been used for marshmallows the past 3 or 4 times you've come on here?`
`06:45.21`	`SpecialK_`	`I got you first I think`
`06:45.29`	`Maquis`	`:)`
`06:45.56`	`SpecialK_`	`~lart CAEDM Unix`
`06:46.24`	`Maquis`	`SpecialK_: are you in CAEDM now?`
`06:46.31`	`Maquis`	`ooh... that's the disturbing lart!`
`06:46.47`	`SpecialK_`	`but of course. Where else would I spend a Monday night.`
`06:46.59`	`Maquis`	`:)`
`06:50.58`	`levi-laptop`	`Maquis: I think the FAT lab sucks for everyone.`
`06:51.16`	`levi-laptop`	`erlang is pretty interesting. It's all about concurrent functional programming.`
`06:51.21`	`Maquis`	`:(`
`06:51.26`	`Maquis`	`that's interesting`
`06:52.08`	`Maquis`	`schnikes!`
`06:52.14`	`Maquis`	`indonesia had another quake?`
`06:55.33`	`levi-laptop`	`Regular programming would probably be sequential imperative programming.`
`06:56.53`	`levi-laptop`	`functional programming = everything is function evaluation; (almost) no side effects.`
`06:57.35`	`levi-laptop`	`concurrent programming = multiple threads of execution`
`06:58.31`	`Maquis`	`ok...`
`06:58.40`	`Maquis`	`so, you have a bunch of functions all running at the same time?`
`06:58.46`	`levi-laptop`	`Most of its flow control is based on threads sending messages to one another.`
`06:59.23`	`levi-laptop`	`There's also no mutable data... once you bind a value to a variable, it stays.`
`06:59.46`	`Maquis`	`levi-laptop: threads sending messages to one another doesn't sound that great after the Distributed Mutual Exclusion lab i had earlier... :)`
`07:00.46`	`*** join/#utah Lone_Wanderer (~chatzilla@c-67-161-243-72.client.comcast.net)`
`07:01.16`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`anyone know where I can get a cheap, old laptop? All I need it to do is run a web browser.`
`07:01.41`	`levi-laptop`	`Maquis: It sucks in C, because it goes against the grain of C. It's what erlang was designed for, though, so it works well.`
`07:01.53`	`Maquis`	`levi-laptop: ah...`
`07:06.05`	`SpecialK_`	`I've been through a few`
`07:06.36`	`SpecialK_`	`I stood on the San Andreas fault line last year`
`07:07.01`	`brailsmt`	`Maquis: you want more sleep and to pass your classes?`
`07:07.32`	`brailsmt`	`get off IRC, it is typically a distractions`
`07:07.56`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`are they scary? I'm terrified of them, but that could just be because I've never experienced one. (Tornadoes don't even phase me, 'cause I grew up in Minnesota.)`
`07:08.26`	`brailsmt`	`Minnesota isn't in tornado alley... is it?`
`07:08.39`	`SpecialK_`	`It depends if the building your in is well built, and how far you are from the epicenter.`
`07:09.13`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`not in tornado alley, no, but we had at least... oh I don't know, probably 20 or more a year, over the entire state`
`07:09.14`	`brailsmt`	`and we are smack dab in the middle of the bible belt, corn belt, and tornado alley...`
`07:09.17`	`SpecialK_`	`'89 hit when I was at a friends house, I was in first grade and really didn't understand what was going on.`
`07:09.37`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`they were quite common`
`07:09.58`	`brailsmt`	`in fact we got thunderstorms a'coming in a day or two...`
`07:10.02`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`we all did tornado drills in elementary school, etc. (I liked to run outside when there was a tornado warning and look at the clouds)`
`07:10.08`	`Maquis`	`brailsmt: yeah...`
`07:10.12`	`brailsmt`	`and tornado season is from March 1st to October...`
`07:10.26`	`Maquis`	`Lone_Wanderer: you've never had an earthquake?`
`07:10.29`	`SpecialK_`	`The house shook, but not too much happened.`
`07:10.29`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`nope`
`07:10.47`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`well, technically yes I have, Utah has several a day :p`
`07:10.56`	`Maquis`	`??`
`07:11.11`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`but they're generally below 3 on the richter scale`
`07:11.19`	`Maquis`	`worst i've been in was a 6.5... but it was deep enough that it wasn't as scary...`
`07:11.31`	`SpecialK_`	`The local paper would have an earthquake map which would show all the ones which had happened lately.`
`07:11.42`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`look up the University of Utah's geo-whatever it's called web site, they've got a page that lists earthquakes in Utah by date.`
`07:11.49`	`Maquis`	`the ones that've been going in indonesia have been about 1000 times stronger than what i've been in...`
`07:12.04`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`yeah, the richter scale is logarithmic or exponential or something, innit?`
`07:12.09`	`brailsmt`	`iirc, the most powerful earthquake in the US was from the New Madrid fault in Missouri...`
`07:12.18`	`Maquis`	`Lone_Wanderer: yeah... something like that`
`07:12.23`	`brailsmt`	`9.<something or other>`
`07:12.33`	`SpecialK_`	`Came back from Utah one time and had a nice small one (~5) like a welcome home note.`
`07:12.33`	`Maquis`	`they say it's not physically possible to a get a mag 10`
`07:12.36`	`brailsmt`	`made the mississippi flow backwards`
`07:12.51`	`Maquis`	`we've gotten pretty close to a mag 10 though`
`07:12.58`	`Maquis`	`9.*`
`07:13.00`	`SpecialK_`	`Does the mississippi really flow? ;)`
`07:13.10`	`brailsmt`	`broke windows in chicago, KC and rang bells in philadelphia`
`07:13.23`	`Maquis`	`the 6.5 i was in could be felt in slc`
`07:13.31`	`Maquis`	`(the earthquake was in seattle)`
`07:13.32`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`the Mississippi goes right past Kansas City doesn't it brailsmt?`
`07:13.39`	`brailsmt`	`of course, it was in the 1800's too...`
`07:13.40`	`brailsmt`	`:)`
`07:13.46`	`brailsmt`	`Lone_Wanderer: no`
`07:13.50`	`xbmodder`	`Lone_Wanderer, hey!`
`07:13.52`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`mmm, you're missing out`
`07:13.54`	`brailsmt`	`the Missouri River does`
`07:14.23`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I grew up in St. Paul, Old Man River was right out the front door of my Jr. High :)`
`07:14.28`	`brailsmt`	`you might be thinking of St. Louis`
`07:15.10`	`brailsmt`	`i live about 10 miles from the Muddy Mo/Mighty Mo/Ole' Miserable... :)`
`07:15.16`	`brailsmt`	`it's pretty big...`
`07:15.54`	`brailsmt`	`Lone_Wanderer: of course, you could probably wade across it up there...`
`07:16.15`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`lol, no`
`07:16.41`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`if you go up to the headwaters you can, and I have. it's about a foot deep and six feet across up there.`
`07:16.41`	`brailsmt`	`the mississippi's origin is in MN`
`07:17.02`	`brailsmt`	`how big is it when it goes by your HS?`
`07:17.04`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`but by the time it hits St. Paul, it's nice and big.`
`07:17.45`	`brailsmt`	`i have only seen it at Nauvoo and St. Louis... I am willing to bet its a fair piece bigger there than in St. Paul... :p`
`07:18.06`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`don't know for sure, but big enough that barges, steamboats, etc. can all share it comfortably`
`07:18.25`	`brailsmt`	`the original banks of the Missouri River where 5 miles wide...`
`07:18.31`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I've seen it in Nauvoo too, it doesn't actually look that much bigger down there than it does in MN. It's probably deeper.`
`07:18.35`	`brailsmt`	`it was truly "a mile wide and an inch deep"`
`07:18.58`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`cool`
`07:19.12`	`brailsmt`	`then the army corp of engineers dredged it so its in a main channel...`
`07:19.25`	`brailsmt`	`anyway, interesting piece of trivia...`
`07:19.56`	`brailsmt`	`yeah, it was 5 miles wide at points and had an average depth of 10 inches...`
`07:20.04`	`brailsmt`	`at least around the KC area...`
`07:20.12`	`brailsmt`	`anyway, gotta go to bed...`
`07:20.15`	`brailsmt`	`cya`
`07:20.24`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`au reovoir`
`07:20.28`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`revoir*`
`07:55.18`	`fozz`	`Awe river.`
`07:58.07`	`Maquis`	`~lart fozz`
`07:59.26`	`fozz`	`My eyes are screaming "go to bed!" at me`
`07:59.33`	`Maquis`	`haha`
`07:59.53`	`fozz`	`I'm screaming back, "As soon as this 'yum update' finishes!"`
`08:00.06`	`levi-laptop`	`My eyes are starting to say the same.`
`08:00.17`	`levi-laptop`	`But I can now read erlang code.`
`08:00.36`	`fozz`	`How is it?`
`08:02.25`	`levi-laptop`	`It's pretty cool, for what it is.`
`08:03.43`	`fozz`	`I've seen some interesting projects using erlang. Don't know much about it.`
`08:04.24`	`levi-laptop`	`It's a functional language with facilities for concurrent programming.`
`08:06.34`	`levi-laptop`	`It does pattern matching like ML and Haskell`
`08:11.49`	`levi-laptop`	`So you can do: factorial(0) -> 1; factorial(X) -> X * factorial(X - 1).`
`08:12.23`	`levi-laptop`	`And: {A, B, C} = {1, 2, 3}`
`08:15.05`	`levi-laptop`	`It's got lightweight threads and ways to pass messages between them.`
`08:23.53`	`Maquis`	`doh`
`08:24.07`	`Maquis`	`how did i get my computer set up for that?`
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`08:46.22`	`Maquis`	`~lart cups`
`08:46.41`	`Maquis`	`~lart cups`
`08:49.09`	`Maquis`	`still doesn't work`
`08:49.20`	`Maquis`	`and i never had to set up cups before... did i?`
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`09:26.37`	`Maquis`	`ibot: how are you?`
`09:26.37`	`ibot`	`Maquis: peachy`
`09:26.45`	`Maquis`	`ibot: that's good to hear`
`09:30.26`	`Tene`	`Maquis: RAWR!`
`09:30.30`	`Tene`	`~scare Maquis`
`09:30.32`	`ibot`	`ACTION puts on a hockey mask and jumps out at Maquis`
`09:37.08`	`Maquis`	`Tene: sup yo?`
`09:37.13`	`Tene`	`not much`
`09:37.16`	`Tene`	`not sleeping`
`09:37.21`	`Maquis`	`why not?`
`09:37.33`	`Tene`	`brain doesn't stop`
`09:38.09`	`Maquis`	`hmmm`
`09:38.13`	`Maquis`	`wish that was my problem`
`09:38.17`	`Maquis`	`brain stopped a while ago`
`09:38.26`	`Tene`	`well`
`09:38.34`	`Tene`	`no`
`09:38.36`	`Tene`	`it's bad`
`09:38.53`	`Tene`	`because often it won't stop, but it won't do anything useful`
`09:39.01`	`Maquis`	`meh`
`09:39.20`	`Tene`	`so you just sit there, like "I need to sleep I need to sleep a;lskjd;lafkjsd;lkfjals;kdjfa;slkdjfas;lkjsdl;kfjasl;dkfjasldkj;asfdlkjfasdl;jfasldkf asI wish I could sleep brainstatic"`
`09:39.37`	`Maquis`	`try copying chinese characters`
`09:39.38`	`Tene`	`so you stay up until you pass out`
`09:39.39`	`Maquis`	`it'll help`
`09:39.52`	`Maquis`	`or find some nice boring textbooks`
`09:40.02`	`Maquis`	`i recommend the textbook they use for physics here`
`09:40.09`	`Maquis`	`it helped me out on many a sleepless night`
`09:40.37`	`Tene`	`if it's too boring, I can't concentrate on it enough to get bored by it to sleep`
`09:41.30`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`or just talk to xbmodder (Warning: May be bad for mental health. Joshc mysteriously dissepeared after talking to xbmodder)`
`09:41.38`	`Maquis`	`copy characters :)`
`09:41.45`	`Maquis`	`when you get bored, switch to another one`
`09:41.52`	`Maquis`	`really... it's fun... honestly...`
`09:42.47`	`Tene`	`stuff like that doesn't help`
`09:42.49`	`Tene`	`I've tried`
`09:42.55`	`Maquis`	`hmmm...`
`09:42.58`	`Maquis`	`dunno...`
`09:43.15`	`Maquis`	`i'm just thinking that cuz thats what i'm doing...`
`09:43.59`	`Tene`	`my cdrom drive is eating my foot again`
`09:44.27`	`Maquis`	`huh?`
`09:44.59`	`Tene`	`02:44 < Tene> my cdrom drive is eating my foot again`
`09:45.16`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`lol`
`09:45.45`	`Tene`	`because of how I sit and where my box is, my foot sometimes bumps the cd eject button`
`09:45.52`	`Maquis`	`oh`
`09:45.54`	`Tene`	`and then it eats things`
`09:45.59`	`Tene`	`like feet or cables or blankets`
`09:46.04`	`Maquis`	`:)`
`09:46.41`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`or me`
`09:46.50`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`i wish your CD-ROM would eat me`
`09:47.39`	`Tene`	`...`
`09:47.40`	`Tene`	`no`
`09:47.53`	`Tene`	`you're not allowed in my cdrom drive ever`
`09:48.08`	`Tene`	`even though the data cable isn't connected, just the power cable`
`09:48.10`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`The Hacker Ethic: Linus's Law says that all of our motivations fall into three basic categories. More important, progress is about going through those very same things as "phases" in a process of evolution, a matter of passing from one category to the next. The categories, in order, are "survival", "social life", and "entertainment".`
`09:53.45`	`Tene`	`Maquis, you're doing mindless work?`
`10:01.06`	`Maquis`	`to a degree`
`10:01.17`	`Maquis`	`i have to know how to write all these characters tomorrow`
`10:01.31`	`Maquis`	`so, i'm trying to memorize them, but at the same time, i'm trying to stay awake`
`10:01.35`	`Tene`	`hmm`
`10:02.15`	`Maquis`	`y?`
`10:25.32`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`<PROTECTED>`
`10:25.32`	`xbmodder_lappy`	`A: Because it's never seen in a combat zone.`
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`14:35.30`	`statik`	`Hey guys`
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`15:16.19`	`sjansen`	`Anyone know a good country to move to? I've decided the US is doomed.`
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`15:16.59`	`tensai`	`sjansen: doesn't matter. no matter where it is, we'll invade pretty soon anyway.`
`15:19.19`	`synic`	`sjansen: I think you can purchase your own island in the phillipines for a mere $20,000`
`15:19.45`	`sjansen`	`Will I be able to get IRC access there?`
`15:20.06`	`synic`	`it might take some effort`
`15:23.25`	`Maquis`	`sjansen: huh?`
`15:24.56`	`sjansen`	`~groklaw`
`15:24.57`	`ibot`	`methinks groklaw is the best place to learn about the SCO lawsuits`
`15:25.17`	`sjansen`	`http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050328225423414`
`15:26.39`	`sjansen`	`Our judges and politicians are too stupid to preserve the nation. I predict the US will soon become a holding company for multi-nationals. A new constitution will be written beginning "We the consumers" instead of "We the people".`
`15:27.00`	`Maquis`	`consumers? not CEOs?`
`15:27.09`	`sjansen`	`But if I can't get IRC on my private island in the Phillipines, that might be a deal breaker.`
`15:32.34`	`sjansen`	`Bah. Just got my first spam that passed grey listing.`
`15:34.37`	`sjansen`	`Gotta love a boss that'll send a message with the subject "oink, oink (wings flapping)"`
`15:35.03`	`Maquis`	`sjansen: what was the email about?`
`15:35.06`	`sjansen`	`(We have a project that has taken so long it's been renamed Project Flying Pig.)`
`15:35.14`	`Maquis`	`hahaha`
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`15:53.02`	`tensai`	`now I remember why I hate math and physics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_field_theory`
`15:53.21`	`hans`	`where's joshc?`
`15:54.07`	`hans`	`physics is just a fancy sort of pretend`
`15:55.46`	`tensai`	`it's a way of locking up nutters without them realizing. the crazy talk segregates them from normal folk.`
`15:57.34`	`tensai`	`telnet 170.148.48.175 25`
`15:57.48`	`sjansen`	`Kinda expensive way of doing it, though.`
`15:57.52`	`tensai`	`does that work for anybody else?`
`15:58.15`	`sjansen`	`And I'm not sure it's fair to force repeated psych exams on college students to just to see if they'll take the bait.`
`15:58.42`	`sjansen`	`Trying 170.148.48.175...`
`15:58.42`	`sjansen`	`Connected to 170.148.48.175.`
`15:58.42`	`sjansen`	`Escape character is '^]'.`
`15:58.43`	`sjansen`	`220 SMTP Proxy Server Ready`
`15:58.54`	`tensai`	`sjansen: thanks`
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`16:16.07`	`jsmith`	`Man, I hate it when people steal my nick`
`16:21.43`	`tensai`	`acrobat 7 for linux is out. ftp://ftp.adobe.com/pub/adobe/reader/unix/7x/7.0/enu/`
`16:30.18`	`tensai`	`http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html`
`16:31.25`	`tensai`	`uclinux on an rj45 connector`
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`16:34.34`	`Newsome`	`most of the space is taken up by connectors`
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`16:37.21`	`jsmith`	`tensai: I wanna buy one and hack on it, but don't have the time...`
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`17:12.12`	`hans`	`ok, where do I find security updates for sles8?`
`17:20.21`	`jsmith`	`hans: In Yast, would be my guess... otherwise, I think you have to go mucking around in their FTP directories.`
`17:20.44`	`jsmith`	`hans: Of course, I'm no SuSE expert, so don't quote me on it`
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`17:31.22`	`Maquis`	`goozbach: can you please smack sjansen for me???`
`17:31.46`	`goozbach`	`done`
`17:32.00`	`Maquis`	`thanks :)`
`17:32.08`	`goozbach`	`that was fun`
`17:32.31`	`Maquis`	`i can imagine :)`
`17:34.25`	`goozbach`	`OK _THAT_ was freakin' AWESOME!!!`
`17:34.34`	`Maquis`	`huh?`
`17:34.59`	`goozbach`	`amarok will tag your mp3s or oggs using musicbrainz`
`17:35.21`	`Maquis`	`and that's more awesome than beating up sjansen?`
`17:35.46`	`goozbach`	`it generates an audio fingerprint and uses that to query against a central source`
`17:36.01`	`goozbach`	`Maquis: tis up there right with it`
`17:36.19`	`Maquis`	`ah...`
`17:36.22`	`Maquis`	`i see`
`17:36.46`	`statik`	`I want to be smackeed`
`17:36.48`	`statik`	`-e`
`17:37.20`	`Maquis`	`statik: why?`
`17:37.34`	`Maquis`	`and, are you in the same room as goo?`
`17:37.47`	`statik`	`It was a joke.. some guys like to be smacked by girls.`
`17:38.13`	`Maquis`	`so, is that why they act so stupid all the time?`
`17:39.18`	`statik`	`Plz zm4ck me Maquis!!!! LOL ROFLMFAO HAHAHAH LOL :) :) :) LOLZ LOL!!!!`
`17:39.35`	`statik`	`no and I will pretend you never said that.`
`17:39.39`	`*** mode/#utah [+o hans] by ChanServ`
`17:40.06`	`Maquis`	`hans: do it :)`
`17:40.37`	`statik`	`I dont want to be kicked or +b'd. I want to be smacked; and by a girl`
`17:41.15`	`levi`	`goozbach: Does the musicbrainz tagging work well?`
`17:41.47`	`levi`	`I started (barely) implementing something to do that, because I have a ton of shoddily tagged mp3s, but I never got very far with it.`
`17:43.42`	`goozbach`	`levi it works well enough for my needs`
`17:43.54`	`goozbach`	`I'm thinking of re-tagging my entire collection`
`17:44.04`	`goozbach`	`(for uniformity)`
`17:46.27`	`levi`	`I just did that manually for my already mostly-tagged music at work.`
`17:46.47`	`jsmith`	`But tagging based on musicbrainz would rock!`
`17:47.04`	`levi`	`Actually, I'm thinking of deleting a ton of music from my home server, since a lot of it is weird crap my old roommate downloaded.`
`17:47.33`	`*** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@2001:470:1f00:645:20a:95ff:fec5:636a)`
`17:49.59`	`*** join/#utah bonez41 (~aint@c-67-166-77-14.client.comcast.net)`
`17:50.12`	`*** join/#utah mrpull (~mrpull@205.158.184.116)`
`17:51.18`	`goozbach`	`levi: instead of deleting it, use the goozbach backup service :)`
`17:54.32`	`goozbach`	`bonez41: it's a shell account on a remote server on which you can back up your un-listened-to music`
`17:54.51`	`levi`	`goozbach: I doubt you'd find most of it terribly interesting either.`
`17:55.06`	`levi`	`goozbach: What do you usually listen to?`
`17:55.08`	`goozbach`	`levi: I have a VERY diverse musical taste`
`17:55.28`	`levi`	`Me too.`
`17:55.34`	`goozbach`	`curent playlist has NIN followed by Bach followed by Shania Twain`
`17:55.52`	`levi`	`Still, that's diverse but fairly mainstream.`
`17:55.59`	`goozbach`	`ohh this song happends to be Jay-Z`
`17:56.24`	`goozbach`	`ohh I've got abt 45% of my music that's from indie labels`
`17:56.56`	`levi`	`A lot of mine is indie stuff, too. But not all indie stuff is good.`
`17:56.57`	`goozbach`	`I just didn't mention it because most people don't know 'the all day super suckers and I can lick any dude in the joint'`
`17:57.26`	`goozbach`	`nor 'flogging molly'`
`17:57.29`	`*** kick/#utah [statik!fugalh@falcon.fugal.net] by gretel (is this like a smack?)`
`17:57.29`	`*** join/#utah statik (~statik@adsl-69-150-171-51.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net)`
`17:57.41`	`levi`	`I think I may have heard of 'flogging molly'`
`17:57.41`	`hans`	`:-)`
`17:57.52`	`bonez41`	`who WOULDN'T like Shania Twain...only someone who is deaf, blind and .... gay...;)`
`17:58.15`	`levi`	`Uh, I wouldn't like her music very much.`
`17:58.37`	`bonez41`	`levi, well, ok, there ARE exceptions....fair enough`
`17:58.51`	`bonez41`	`no offense levi..;)`
`17:59.21`	`*** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com)`
`18:00.43`	`hans`	`AAAAAAAAAAACK`
`18:00.58`	`tensai`	`def... leopard?`
`18:01.03`	`shadoi`	`leppard`
`18:01.05`	`shadoi`	`geez`
`18:01.15`	`sjansen`	`Nope. Don't have any Def Leopard yet.`
`18:01.35`	`sjansen`	`shadoi: I'm willing to accept donations toward my education.`
`18:01.58`	`shadoi`	`I have no motivation to fund your brain.`
`18:02.34`	`sjansen`	`Okay, but that means I'm just going to have to sing more 80's music and Country music in the channel.`
`18:04.27`	`Jayce^`	`80's is ok..`
`18:04.33`	`Jayce^`	`country will get you larted`
`18:04.41`	`sjansen`	`o/~ Turning Japanese I think I'm turning Japanese I really think so. ~/o`
`18:05.14`	`bonez41`	`cmon Hans.....I bet your better half like Ms. Twain's musical abilities...!`
`18:05.41`	`hans`	`she doesn't mind country, but she also doesn't mind going without for my sake`
`18:06.01`	`levi`	`I like some country, but the selection is pretty limited.`
`18:06.25`	`shadoi`	`hans: I assume you mean without country? heh`
`18:06.26`	`hans`	`I like some stuff with country elements, e.g. the proclaimers`
`18:06.40`	`jsmith`	`Country music makes me want to garth...`
`18:06.49`	`hans`	`shadoi: yes, I think that was implied`
`18:06.55`	`bonez41`	`I'd be happy if my better half had some opinion at all...about music...it's just noise to her....background filler`
`18:06.55`	`sjansen`	`jsmith: Smash a guitar or fly around on cables?`
`18:06.59`	`*** join/#utah SpecialK (~chatzilla@128.187.254.128)`
`18:07.08`	`hans`	`and I love old western stuff like the sons of the pioneers`
`18:07.22`	`jsmith`	`sjansen: It was a play on words... garth = barf`
`18:07.26`	`hans`	`_real_ cowboy music, from the time when _real_ cowboys ruled the earth`
`18:07.29`	`hans`	`er, roamed`
`18:08.46`	`sjansen`	`Or perhaps you aren't aware that toward the end of his carerr Garth started doing very un-Country things like smash guitars and fly around the stage.`
`18:08.56`	`tensai`	`~lart goozbach and bonez41 for getting Shania Twain stuck in my head`
`18:09.11`	`levi`	`I like Wilco, some Johnny Cash, Neko Case, and Hem.`
`18:09.19`	`sjansen`	`Yet again ibot proves she's a budding intelligence.`
`18:09.29`	`Jayce^`	`mmmm... hot clue`
`18:09.46`	`levi`	`Not all of which are all strictly country, but are closer than the Proclaimers. ;)`
`18:10.03`	`Jayce^`	`serving 'clue' up fresh`
`18:11.14`	`goozbach`	`"get your hot n ready clue here!"`
`18:11.55`	`goozbach`	`~lart females for asking questions that have no logical way of answering`
`18:12.14`	`Jayce^`	`goozbach, that's a talent they hone for years..`
`18:13.14`	`sjansen`	`Jayce^: They practice making non-corporal entities vocalize? Man that's even better than getting inanimate objects to answer.`
`18:14.06`	`Jayce^`	`obviously you haven't experienced it :)`
`18:14.22`	`goozbach`	`~lart females for asking questions that have no logical way of being answered`
`18:14.28`	`goozbach`	`better sjansen ?`
`18:14.51`	`sjansen`	`no, the other one was more fun to parse`
`18:35.59`	`*** join/#utah jce (jce@192.41.88.101)`
`18:40.37`	`spr_`	`~fish sjansen`
`18:40.41`	`ibot`	`ACTION slaps sjansen around with a large trout`
`18:42.03`	`*** join/#utah byronc (~byron@65.37.125.194)`
`18:42.49`	`statik`	`Die, you nazi scum.`
`18:43.46`	`Maquis`	`goozbach: ?????`
`18:43.47`	`jsmith`	`statik: Was that a System V manual?`
`18:43.48`	`levi`	`Ooh, David Byrne has an online radio station now.`
`18:44.11`	`goozbach`	`Maquis: ???????`
`18:44.15`	`statik`	`jsmith, actually IRIX.`
`18:44.21`	`Maquis`	`goozbach: what questions that can't be answered/`
`18:45.30`	`tensai`	`nfs-user-server vs nfs-kernel-server. opinions?`
`18:46.33`	`tensai`	`so far the only difference I can see is that user-server works and kernel-server doesn't, at least on my box`
`18:47.04`	`tensai`	`one runs in user space, the other in kernel space`
`18:47.55`	`jsmith`	`statik: Oooh, IRIX. I loved IRIX. Anybody got a spare O2 I can have?`
`18:47.55`	`tensai`	`in theory the kernel version should be faster, but also more prone to horrendous errors`
`18:48.44`	`statik`	`I have an OS2 install cd set. 3 cd's with the big blue logo!`
`18:48.59`	`statik`	`OS/2`
`18:49.59`	`*** join/#utah SpecialK (~chatzilla@128.187.254.128)`
`18:53.45`	`spr`	`~whaleslap sjansen`
`18:53.48`	`ibot`	`ACTION slaps sjansen upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh`
`18:54.39`	`*** join/#utah ggundy (~gabe@mail.gocastlerock.com)`
`18:56.24`	`statik`	`thats a nice name for a freakishly huge killer wale.`
`18:56.24`	`SpecialK`	`~fish spr`
`18:56.26`	`ibot`	`ACTION slaps spr around with a large trout`
`18:56.47`	`spr`	`~sword SpecialK`
`18:57.23`	`SpecialK`	`~travolta Maquis`
`18:57.25`	`ibot`	`ACTION replaces Maquis with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power`
`18:57.44`	`*** part/#utah jakea (~jakea@128.187.200.5)`
`19:02.36`	`*** join/#utah ibot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc)`
`19:02.36`	`*** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See plug.org, uug.byu.edu, sllug.org, fslc.usu.edu, etc. \| Utah Windows Admins Anonymous: utwaa.org \| Vote goozbach for UUG president.`
`19:02.36`	`*** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ`
`19:02.47`	`Maquis`	`~lart SpecialK`
`19:05.07`	`xbmodder`	`?`
`19:05.30`	`xbmodder`	`~nuke ibot`
`19:08.00`	`sjansen`	`~ping www.cs.byu.edu`
`19:08.02`	`ibot`	`pong www.cs.byu.edu`
`19:08.03`	`goozbach`	`Maquis: that lart canceled out yours`
`19:08.20`	`sjansen`	`~bad ibot`
`19:08.22`	`ibot`	`Bad ibot, bad! No cookie for you!`
`19:08.22`	`goozbach`	`you washed off the eggs`
`19:08.49`	`Maquis`	`~lart ibot`
`19:08.54`	`Maquis`	`~lart SpecialK`
`19:10.22`	`statik`	`== WELCOME TO BOT HELL: Population: 51 ==`
`19:12.10`	`SpecialK`	`ibot isn't as respsonive as he once was.`
`19:14.15`	`Maquis`	`~lart spr`
`19:14.25`	`SpecialK`	`Broadcasts about?`
`19:15.45`	`Maquis`	`"only the pizza lab is going down. sorry for any confusion"`
`19:30.04`	`Maquis`	`she knows all but one of the characters for the chinese quiz today`
`19:30.59`	`Maquis`	`i am kind of annoyed that i forgot to grab the paper for cs404 that i printed last night`
`19:31.04`	`Maquis`	`now i have to reprint it`
`19:31.09`	`Maquis`	`and it costs money here on campus`
`19:31.42`	`*** join/#utah lchandler (~4332cd42@208-186-103-38.dsl.csolutions.net)`
`19:35.03`	`LrnChndlr`	`ok regex gurus`
`19:35.23`	`Tene`	`yay!`
`19:35.31`	`Maquis`	`Tene: long time no see`
`19:35.39`	`Maquis`	`what time did you end up getting to bed?`
`19:35.39`	`Tene`	`you sleep, M?`
`19:35.43`	`LrnChndlr`	`can someone show me a simple wayto remove everything from a text string that starts from [ and ends with ], including the brakets?`
`19:35.43`	`Maquis`	`around 4`
`19:35.47`	`Tene`	`hrmm... lemme check...`
`19:35.50`	`Maquis`	`little after 4...`
`19:36.03`	`Maquis`	`got up at 8...`
`19:36.09`	`Tene`	`maybe 5`
`19:36.18`	`Maquis`	`:)`
`19:36.25`	`Tene`	`didn't sleep for a decent while after that, though`
`19:36.28`	`Maquis`	`l8r all`
`19:36.32`	`Tene`	`good luck.`
`19:37.24`	`sjansen`	`LrnChndlr: s/(\[.*?\])// should work for simple cases`
`19:37.37`	`sjansen`	`forget the parens, don't need them`
`19:38.09`	`sjansen`	`LrnChndlr: s/\[.*?\]//g <-- be sure to test that 'cause I'm too lazy to`
`19:39.40`	`LrnChndlr`	`thanks, testing ;)`
`20:09.11`	`*** join/#utah statik (~statik@adsl-69-150-171-51.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net)`
`20:09.45`	`goozbach`	`cats sleeping with dogs, the sky falling, hades reports frost, plug announcement early?`
`20:09.51`	`goozbach`	`what Is going on?`
`20:12.45`	`statik`	`goozbach, what country is UUG?`
`20:12.57`	`statik`	`And why should I vote for you?`
`20:15.25`	`*** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc)`
`20:16.05`	`goozbach`	`statik: so you can be non-conformist`
`20:16.17`	`goozbach`	`I'm running under the non-conformist party`
`20:16.53`	`goozbach`	`and UUG is more a state of mind than any actual place.`
`20:21.33`	`statik`	`Ok, well in that case I conform and submit my vote with your name.`
`20:21.37`	`bucky`	`goozbach, repeat the non-conformist after me...`
`20:21.54`	`bucky`	`I swear not to repeat anything that anyone else says`
`20:22.17`	`bucky`	`non-conformist oath`
`20:22.30`	`statik`	`Wow, thats a mind job.`
`20:26.17`	`hans`	`looks like someone packaged gaim-e for debian`
`20:27.58`	`levi`	`What's gaim-e?`
`20:29.09`	`hans`	`encryption`
`20:29.30`	`hans`	`plugin I think, though i'm not sure it doesn't have to be compiled in`
`20:29.56`	`hans`	`package gaim-encryption, but I think it goes by gaim-e to most people. or I could be confused`
`20:30.01`	`levi`	`Ahh, okay.`
`20:30.14`	`levi`	`I had that installed at one point, but since it only works with other gaim users...`
`20:30.59`	`hans`	`I like ubuntu, but I've noticed it isn't nearly as up-to-date as testing`
`20:31.30`	`hans`	`a little ironic. you feel like you have a more up-to-date system when you install it and everything is configured nicely`
`20:31.30`	`sjansen`	`hans: that's kinda the point`
`20:31.44`	`hans`	`what's the point?`
`20:31.58`	`sjansen`	`Ubuntu lags a bit to allow for a tiny bit more Q&A.`
`20:33.21`	`hans`	`or because they don't have the manpower to keep up. I'm not sure which it is, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.`
`20:36.06`	`Tene`	`they quite likely don't have the manpower to keep up, but a lag for Q&A is actually planned`
`20:36.24`	`bucky`	`ubuntu doesn't take the time to support 11 architectures`
`20:36.46`	`sjansen`	`hans: The man power problem is why they have fewer packages.`
`20:38.01`	`hans`	`can you clear up for me, is everything from debian available through universe?`
`20:38.12`	`byronc`	`but ubuntu doesn't lag on all packages... only the stuff they keep in universe`
`20:38.24`	`byronc`	`hans: universe is a snapshot of sid`
`20:38.32`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`has anyone ever tried to quantify the power of a programming language?`
`20:38.35`	`Tene`	`and what's multiverse?`
`20:38.42`	`hans`	`includes non-free`
`20:38.44`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: Yes.`
`20:38.49`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`who, and how?`
`20:39.03`	`hans`	`computer scientists. with theory`
`20:39.10`	`byronc`	`Tene: non-free stuff`
`20:39.11`	`hans`	`and they've succeeded, btw`
`20:39.15`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`cool`
`20:39.25`	`sjansen`	`And perl won.`
`20:39.25`	`hans`	`~google turing complete`
`20:39.31`	`levi`	`I don't recall, but I have read some comparisons of different languages via different metrics to measure expressiveness, programmer productivity, etc.`
`20:39.56`	`levi`	`hans: I don't think that's exactly what he was referring to. :)`
`20:40.07`	`hans`	`most professors I know would say "power" refers to what the language can do. Maybe he was referring to something else`
`20:40.10`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`right, but brainf!#$% is turing complete and I don't think anyone would argue that it's as powerful as... anything else`
`20:40.16`	`hans`	`but it is`
`20:40.29`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`not in the way I'm defining power :p`
`20:40.30`	`hans`	`that's the point. unless you are using a different definition of "power"`
`20:40.49`	`levi`	`hans: There are the set of operations that a language supports directly, and then the set of operations that requires implementing another language to get.`
`20:40.49`	`hans`	`right, and that's ok. just make sure you know it's an idiosynchratic definition.`
`20:41.11`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`yeah, I realized that almost as soon as I asked myself the original question`
`20:41.13`	`hans`	`that's a useful distinction`
`20:41.34`	`hans`	`but what is an operation?`
`20:42.14`	`hans`	`byronc: so universe is a QA'd snapshot of sid? Or is it just a snapshot in time?`
`20:42.18`	`levi`	`Well, obviously we'd have to define that to be rigorous.`
`20:42.25`	`levi`	`But we're speaking informally here.`
`20:42.33`	`hans`	`levi: yes, that would be too much fun for IRC. :)`
`20:42.39`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`it changes based on the scope of the operation you're doing at the time`
`20:43.01`	`levi`	`For example, you can't directly create first-class continuations in C.`
`20:43.16`	`hans`	`and if it is QA'd, I wonder why it is based on sid and not testing`
`20:43.25`	`byronc`	`hans: universe has no QA, it's just a snapshot of sid (as of november 29th for Hoary) compiled against ubuntu packages`
`20:43.29`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`err. the scope of the problem you're working on, maybe.`
`20:43.33`	`levi`	`You have to essentially create an interpreter or virtual machine for a language that supports that sort of control.`
`20:44.28`	`hans`	`byronc: thanks for explaining. So, the main repository (can't remember the name) has QA and is spiffy, but the "universe" is not as up-to-date as testing, nor is it as stable as testing.`
`20:44.54`	`hans`	`I imagine a deb-src line for testing or sid would come in handy in that case.`
`20:45.00`	`byronc`	`hans: that's it exactly`
`20:45.18`	`byronc`	`the main repository is often more up-to-date than testing or sid`
`20:45.36`	`hans`	`yeah, that's the cool part`
`20:45.37`	`levi`	`A useful definition of 'expressive power' for a language would be the amount of code needed to express certain high-level concepts.`
`20:45.50`	`levi`	`Which concepts would have to be defined in the study, of course.`
`20:46.07`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Heh. Google for "programming language power" (no quotes) gives Paul Graham as the third result.`
`20:46.17`	`hans`	`He has the power.`
`20:46.49`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`But can you really say that just expressing something in fewer lines of code means that the language is more powerful?`
`20:46.49`	`levi`	`Because Lisp is a powerful language, and Paul Graham is a lisp evangelist. :)`
`20:47.05`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I didn't think he'd get such a high page rank though.`
`20:47.21`	`hans`	`btw, graham has shifted to ruby lately from python`
`20:47.25`	`hans`	`of course, it's lisp underneath`
`20:47.31`	`hans`	`that he's really for`
`20:47.44`	`levi`	`He's the poster boy for success with Lisp.`
`20:47.49`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`The reason I ask that is because the fewer the lines of code you have to write, generally, the harder you have to think about each individual line`
`20:48.08`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`up to a certain point`
`20:48.19`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: The studies I've seen seemed to contradict that.`
`20:48.39`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`okay`
`20:48.47`	`levi`	`They found that programmers took about the same time per line of code no matter which language they used.`
`20:48.58`	`hans`	`I agree, once you're past the point where you are making up for having to write extra code to implement one idea`
`20:49.06`	`hans`	`e.g. one-liners vs just plain simple`
`20:49.39`	`hans`	`levi: I'm guessing those programmers were sane and didn't write a series of tricky one-liners.`
`20:50.00`	`sjansen`	`Spending more time thinking and less time writing boiler plate is a good thing.`
`20:50.03`	`hans`	`if a language were to force you to do crazy one-liners, that would go into what Lone_Wanderer was thinking`
`20:50.17`	`levi`	`hans: Right, the study was focused towards application development rather than random hacking.`
`20:50.35`	`bucky`	`Arc is a new dialect of Lisp that Paul Graham is working on`
`20:50.57`	`bucky`	`hmm.. he's starting his own language`
`20:50.58`	`levi`	`Maybe he'll finish someday.`
`20:50.59`	`hans`	`don't mind me. :)`
`20:51.04`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I'm just thinking that if you took a bunch of programmers and said "Okay, implement this algorithm in as few lines as possible. Your language of choice gets points for having fewer lines in it."`
`20:51.09`	`hans`	`the graham cracker language`
`20:51.27`	`bucky`	`Arc actually ^^`
`20:51.31`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: I think the Great Programming Language Shootout had metrics like that.`
`20:51.39`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`they're going to think real hard about how to squeeze as much operation into each line as possible`
`20:51.52`	`*** join/#utah joshc (~joshc@65.37.125.194)`
`20:51.55`	`hans`	`careful, Lone_Wanderer, what you ask for. Most languages can do it in one line unless you put a character limit on each line`
`20:51.59`	`sjansen`	`joshc: perfect timing`
`20:52.04`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:52.05`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: But that's not a very useful study.`
`20:52.05`	`hans`	`joshc: did you see the bit on /. about your personal data being stolen?`
`20:52.12`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:52.20`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:52.20`	`*** join/#utah Hhhhh (~cristobal@c-67-161-218-202.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)`
`20:52.25`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:52.30`	`Hhhhh`	`huh?`
`20:52.31`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`right, hans, but for C (for example) you'd have to define a "line" as ending with a semicolon`
`20:52.42`	`Hhhhh`	`what stolen laptop?`
`20:52.45`	`hans`	`ahh. again to definitions. :)`
`20:52.46`	`sjansen`	`joshc: lisp is the greatest language ever created, followed by scheme for mere mortals, right?`
`20:52.48`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:52.54`	`bucky`	`what has Paul Graham done since Viaweb and his Bayesian filter in 98 ?`
`20:53.01`	`Hhhhh`	`sjansen:lol, language bashing?`
`20:53.07`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`he's rich, who cares? :p`
`20:53.18`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:53.21`	`levi`	`bucky: Written a lot of essays.`
`20:53.25`	`bucky`	`ic`
`20:53.32`	`bucky`	`he's a historian`
`20:53.33`	`levi`	`bucky: And worked on his pet language.`
`20:53.38`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`if I were rich I wouldn't be worrying about turning out useful code`
`20:53.41`	`bucky`	`and an archivist`
`20:53.45`	`Hhhhh`	`it is incredibly good for some thing like language processing and other thingsd`
`20:53.54`	`Hhhhh`	`but not for everything :)`
`20:54.06`	`levi`	`Common Lisp is a pretty good general purpose programming language.`
`20:54.06`	`sjansen`	`Lone_Wanderer: Why worry now? You just have to give the _appearance_ of doing so.`
`20:54.18`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:54.27`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`lol`
`20:54.35`	`Hhhhh`	`Dr. Geary and her R.A.s wrote a program in Lisp and C that can translate between several languages in real time with greater accuracy than human translators`
`20:54.45`	`Hhhhh`	`that is amazing`
`20:54.58`	`sjansen`	`computer languages, or human languages?`
`20:55.02`	`hans`	`human`
`20:55.04`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`sjansen: do you have any suggestions for how to appear to write useful code without actually doing so?`
`20:55.04`	`Hhhhh`	`human languajes`
`20:55.06`	`sjansen`	`for small subsets of human language I'm sure`
`20:55.09`	`hans`	`dr. geary is into natural language processing`
`20:55.12`	`bucky`	`i think Chuck Moore is cooler than him`
`20:55.16`	`Hhhhh`	`not really small subsets`
`20:55.17`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: Write in perl. ;)`
`20:55.19`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`who's Dr. Geary?`
`20:55.23`	`hans`	`I know (or knew for one semester) one of her RAs`
`20:55.26`	`sjansen`	`Lone_Wanderer: step one, convert everything to lisp`
`20:55.33`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:55.38`	`Hhhhh`	`Dr. Irene Geary is a CS professor at BYU`
`20:55.38`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:55.44`	`Hhhhh`	`excellent researcher`
`20:55.49`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:55.59`	`Hhhhh`	`i don't like her as a teacher though :)`
`20:56.09`	`hans`	`I can't wait for the universal translator`
`20:56.09`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`makes me wonder how hard it is to get in on a research project with her as an undergrad`
`20:56.09`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:56.16`	`hans`	`then all we need to do is find some klingons to talk to`
`20:56.18`	`Hhhhh`	`yup joshc`
`20:56.23`	`Hhhhh`	`lol`
`20:56.23`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:56.31`	`levi`	`bucky: Chuck Moore is cool, but he's even more off in his own little world.`
`20:56.32`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:56.37`	`Hhhhh`	`yea, but it is not as simple as you make it sound like`
`20:56.44`	`bucky`	`levi, well he is getting older`
`20:56.45`	`Hhhhh`	`it's actually incredibly hard`
`20:56.56`	`Hhhhh`	`human language is usually not Turing-decidable`
`20:57.00`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:57.11`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I'm sure that's exactly how they wrote it too, Josh. There's probably a line in there, right after fopen(), that says JustSortOfFigureItOut('via_pattern_matching', $str)`
`20:57.18`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:57.23`	`Hhhhh`	`so she uses stochastic methods when in ambiguous territory`
`20:57.34`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:57.38`	`bucky`	`wow.. i think Irene is hot..`
`20:57.39`	`Hhhhh`	`turing-decidable means pretty much that a computer could solve it`
`20:57.42`	`Hhhhh`	`rofl`
`20:58.02`	`Hhhhh`	`she's very smart, but I took CS 330 from her and I didn't like the way she teaches`
`20:58.12`	`Hhhhh`	`but that is just my personal opinion`
`20:58.21`	`levi`	`bucky: I mean, he's not really interested in things that relate to the current state of computing, but is way off on a tangent he started years ago.`
`20:58.30`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:59.03`	`Hhhhh`	`about Lisp, it's a cool language, but you sure can't do something in it in an easy and efficient way`
`20:59.11`	`Hhhhh`	`i mean, some things`
`20:59.13`	`Hhhhh`	`i meant`
`20:59.18`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: Like what?`
`20:59.22`	`Hhhhh`	`graphics`
`20:59.30`	`sjansen`	`Hhhhh: then you're probably trying to do them the wrong way`
`20:59.37`	`Hhhhh`	`huh?`
`20:59.41`	`sjansen`	`Hhhhh: Lisp is never at fault. You are at fault.`
`20:59.43`	`bucky`	`i think Irene is a window user`
`20:59.46`	`Hhhhh`	`lol`
`20:59.48`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Hhhhh: you can write a library that will allow you to do it in an easy and efficient way ;)`
`20:59.57`	`Hhhhh`	`sjansen:I worded what I said wrong`
`21:00.04`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: What sort of graphics do you mean?`
`21:00.13`	`hans`	`Hhhhh: theoretically you're going to get flamed for saying that, but in practice you're mostly right`
`21:00.20`	`bucky`	`svg`
`21:00.25`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: I know people working on gl code, games, etc. in Common Lisp. Have you looked at the current state of things?`
`21:00.27`	`Hhhhh`	`sjansen: i meant to say that there are some things for which using Lisp could be more hassle that what is worth`
`21:00.33`	`Hhhhh`	`yes`
`21:00.34`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`PG has a ray tracing program in his book that looks pretty efficient to me...`
`21:00.54`	`levi`	`I know a guy who did a ray tracer in lisp as a thesis project or something.`
`21:01.05`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`then again, I've never looked at ray tracing programs in any other languages`
`21:01.05`	`Hhhhh`	`hans: I have seen people doing graphics with interpreted languages. It still does not convinve me at all`
`21:01.07`	`sjansen`	`Hhhhh: You meant to say "there are some thing's I'm to inexperienced to accomplish in the glorius lisp".`
`21:01.13`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: Lisp is usually not interpreted.`
`21:01.25`	`Hhhhh`	`sjansen: no, i didn't mean to say that`
`21:01.26`	`hans`	`convinve?`
`21:01.38`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`convince :p`
`21:02.00`	`Hhhhh`	`writing a ray tracer in lisp could be good to prove a point but it sure is not the best way to go`
`21:02.02`	`Hhhhh`	`same with perl`
`21:02.11`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: This guy would beg to differ, I'm sure.`
`21:02.22`	`Hhhhh`	`levi: that's all right`
`21:02.31`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Since the guy who wrote it is Paul Graham, he certainly would beg to differ ;)`
`21:02.43`	`sjansen`	`I don't beg. I simply differ.`
`21:03.06`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: Well, saying 'it sure is not the best way to go' is a factual statement, which you'd have to back up. If you change it to an opinion statement, I'm fine with it.`
`21:03.11`	`hans`	`sjansen: someone on plug thinks you look like flamebait`
`21:03.27`	`Hhhhh`	`all i am saying is that I doubt that someone could write a ray tracer in Lisp and make it render images with 1,000,000 polygons in less than a minute`
`21:03.28`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: Though I would disagree.`
`21:03.51`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: What's your basis for saying so?`
`21:03.55`	`Hhhhh`	`i'm not flamebaiting, I think that each language and tool has uses for which is best`
`21:04.02`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Hhhhh: write the program in less than a minute, or make the ray tracer render the image in less than a minute?`
`21:04.18`	`Hhhhh`	`lone_wanderer: the latter`
`21:04.33`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`On what machine, with how much RAM?`
`21:04.35`	`sjansen`	`"Oh I'll keep quiet... until the water reaches my upper lip and then SOMEBODY'S going to hear about it."`
`21:04.44`	`Hhhhh`	`regular machine at the CS dept`
`21:04.54`	`hans`	`guess that rules out mary lou`
`21:05.06`	`Hhhhh`	`come on guys, i'm not trying to start a flame war here.`
`21:05.23`	`levi`	`This guy's raytracer was speed-competitive with C-based raytracers, I believe.`
`21:05.25`	`Hhhhh`	`but i don't think that being religious about a specific language or tool is the best way to go about programming`
`21:06.10`	`Hhhhh`	`i know that for something some languages are better suited than others`
`21:06.20`	`Hhhhh`	`but there are things for which they aren't`
`21:06.25`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: You keep saying that, but you never explain.`
`21:06.38`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: Unfounded statements aren't very useful.`
`21:06.40`	`Hhhhh`	`you can still do them, but again, you can build a house with a fork if you put the time and effort`
`21:06.49`	`sjansen`	`hans: Maybe you and I could start a flame war since Hhhhh won't cooperate.`
`21:06.57`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`There's a study somewhere that showed that the speed and memory footprint of Lisp is more or less equivalent to that of C, iirc`
`21:07.02`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`can't find it on google though`
`21:07.10`	`hans`	`I'll volunteer a data point. I could write audio processing stuff in ruby, but as much as I like ruby in general I would rather do audio processing in C`
`21:07.26`	`sjansen`	`Hhhhh: I'm pretty sure you'd need more than one fork.`
`21:07.29`	`hans`	`not for speed reasons, although I'm pretty sure with ruby that's a concern`
`21:07.32`	`Hhhhh`	`hans: that's what i meant`
`21:07.35`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: I dunno about that. Speed, in some cases, is pretty close. Memory usage is probably greater in Lisp. Programmer productivity is definitely higher in Lisp, though.`
`21:07.52`	`hans`	`levi: assuming the programmer knows lisp`
`21:07.57`	`levi`	`hans: Indeed.`
`21:07.57`	`hans`	`and thinks in the lisp way`
`21:08.19`	`levi`	`I think a lot of people have incorrect ideas about 'The lisp way' based on exposure to Scheme in school.`
`21:08.25`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`yeah, the memory footprint was greater, but not by much. at least, it didn't look bigger by much on a graph that included a program written in Java.`
`21:08.48`	`Hhhhh`	`levi: maybe, but I think that writing libraries to wrap OpenGL in Lisp for graphics applications sure looks like a lot more work than using Gl.h`
`21:09.05`	`hans`	`levi: please elaborate. My own background with lisp is only scheme in school`
`21:09.17`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`That's only because someone already took the time and effort to write the library in C already.`
`21:09.19`	`Hhhhh`	`and because some languages have been used for so long for some things, many of the kinks are worked out`
`21:09.22`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: There are already libraries wrapping OpenGL in Lisp, and there's a generic FFI to call C so you can use Gl.h too.`
`21:09.23`	`Hhhhh`	`agree`
`21:09.28`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`If you didn't have Gl.h...`
`21:09.35`	`hans`	`ahh, the ol' perl is better because of CPAN argument in disguise`
`21:10.06`	`levi`	`hans: Common Lisp does not require tail-call elimination, so recursive-style programming is FAR less common.`
`21:10.15`	`Hhhhh`	`well, still, I could make wrapping libraries for thread management with the Datalog language we made in CS 236`
`21:10.31`	`Hhhhh`	`that doesn't mean that it's better suited for it`
`21:10.55`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: You've still made no explanation at all about what makes C better suited for graphics than Common Lisp.`
`21:11.09`	`Hhhhh`	`OK, i'll tell you why`
`21:11.11`	`hans`	`he did play the disguised CPAN card`
`21:11.21`	`levi`	`hans: And you called him on it.`
`21:11.36`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Anyone know what the Self language is based on?`
`21:11.42`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: Smalltalk`
`21:11.47`	`Hhhhh`	`there is many more resources for OpenGL (advanced tutorials, helper libraries, etc) and such for C than for Lisp`
`21:12.09`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: You can call any of those helper libraries from Lisp as well.`
`21:12.15`	`Hhhhh`	`2) C is faster than Lisp (for graphics even a few FPS mean a lot)`
`21:12.29`	`hans`	`if the CPAN card is invalid, cross-language library calling is too`
`21:12.32`	`Tene`	`provide a reference for that`
`21:12.39`	`Tene`	`for 2)`
`21:12.44`	`levi`	`hans: Well, cross-language library calling invalidates the CPAN card.`
`21:12.58`	`Hhhhh`	`3) I think it's rather fastidious to have to work your way through to get the kind of low-level management you can get in C with Lisp`
`21:12.59`	`*** join/#utah ggundy (~gabe@208.187.28.250)`
`21:13.10`	`Hhhhh`	`all right, i'll look for it`
`21:13.45`	`sjansen`	`C is not faster than lisp. C is easier to get fast than Lisp.`
`21:13.46`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: All you have to do is declare your types to let the compiler do optimizations. It's not any harder than declaring your types in C.`
`21:14.06`	`Tene`	`3) why do you need low-level management? Are you sure that that's not just "this is how I do it in C, so I want to do it exactly the same way in lisp, and that's hard"?`
`21:14.29`	`levi`	`You do need low-level management to get critical portions of your code to execute as fast as possible.`
`21:14.30`	`Tene`	`maybe "lisp is bad because I can't call asm"?`
`21:14.39`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`what's asm?`
`21:14.44`	`sjansen`	`For some things, C is slower. For example, Mono has (had?) a faster XSLT implementation because the Mono run time could do run time optomization, but C only did compile time.`
`21:14.46`	`Hhhhh`	`low-level management is almost the main reason of why I would use C`
`21:15.02`	`hans`	`so what is the practical pure lisp to use these days? and why is it different from scheme? If I want to learn more lisp, which variant to I go for?`
`21:15.04`	`Tene`	`what exactly do you mean by "low-level management"?`
`21:15.05`	`Hhhhh`	`I'm talking about high-performance graphics, not some gui or screensaver`
`21:15.06`	`Hhhhh`	`http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/great/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all&sort=fullcpu`
`21:15.12`	`Tene`	`you're using it almost like a buzzword`
`21:15.12`	`levi`	`And Lisp provides methods to profile your code, read the disassembly of functions, and get them to compile to code pretty much identical to C.`
`21:15.15`	`Hhhhh`	`SIMD instructions, etc`
`21:15.54`	`sjansen`	`Studies have also shown the optomized garbage collection can be faster then hand coded C memory management.`
`21:16.05`	`Hhhhh`	`http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=382109.382124`
`21:16.26`	`sjansen`	`~hug C`
`21:16.29`	`ibot`	`ACTION hugs C`
`21:16.29`	`Tene`	`alright, who decided that ctrl+w closes windows?`
`21:16.55`	`Tene`	`I keep killing IM and browser windows trying to delete words.`
`21:17.09`	`sjansen`	`Hhhhh: A decade old paper isn't a good argument anymore.`
`21:17.19`	`Hhhhh`	`I can't find the becnhmarks I saw a while ago`
`21:17.20`	`hans`	`sjansen: optomized - is that like optometry?`
`21:17.51`	`Hhhhh`	`well, I can see if I can find these benchmarks some other time, I gotta finish a project before 4`
`21:17.54`	`sjansen`	`hans: dilates hans's puipls then points him at heavy machinery`
`21:18.08`	`levi`	`Anyway, if all you care about is ultimate speed, then you probably want to use some C and/or assembly in your project.`
`21:18.13`	`Hhhhh`	`i'll bring it up some other time`
`21:18.25`	`Hhhhh`	`levi: yes, and most of the time i do`
`21:18.33`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`awww man. just when I joined #lisp and asked them for the link I'm looking for.`
`21:18.35`	`Hhhhh`	`SIMD can be very nice...`
`21:18.52`	`levi`	`But Lisp is a general-purpose programming language, and is good at most programming tasks.`
`21:18.56`	`Hhhhh`	`no worries, next time i'll bring it up`
`21:19.03`	`Hhhhh`	`levi: I don't deny that`
`21:19.19`	`Hhhhh`	`but general-purpose doesn't mean best at everything`
`21:19.31`	`Hhhhh`	`i don't deny that Lisp is an awesome program`
`21:19.33`	`levi`	`In fact, I'd say it's good at more things than C is, but that would be my opinion.`
`21:19.45`	`Hhhhh`	`well, i don't know about that`
`21:19.49`	`Hhhhh`	`but it could be`
`21:19.54`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`found it`
`21:20.03`	`hans`	`it's probably good at more things than I am`
`21:20.03`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`http://www.flownet.com/gat/papers/lisp-java.pdf`
`21:20.03`	`Hhhhh`	`i guess i haven't done enough lisp to say it does or not`
`21:20.05`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`it says lisp-java but C is in there too.`
`21:20.32`	`hans`	`levi: did you see my question?`
`21:21.11`	`levi`	`hans: Sorry, I missed it... just read it in scrollback.`
`21:21.27`	`Hhhhh`	`careful about this, it's throwing C and C++ in the same sack, C++ is IMHO the language of the gods but you have to be careful or it can be slower than C`
`21:21.45`	`Tene`	`...`
`21:21.48`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`So it is.`
`21:21.49`	`Tene`	`language of the gods?`
`21:21.50`	`levi`	`Hhhhh: C can be slower than C++ if you're not careful, too.`
`21:21.59`	`Hhhhh`	`or lisp too :)`
`21:22.10`	`Tene`	`C can be slower than Java if you're stupid.`
`21:22.19`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Although if you look carefully, you'll see that even with including C++ in the study, the fastest Lisp program is not as fast as the fastest C/C++ program.`
`21:22.24`	`Hhhhh`	`Tene, Java is very close to C nowadays`
`21:22.29`	`sjansen`	`Hhhhh: Do you mean the Greek gods who enjoyed torturing humans? Yup, that's a good theory on its origins.`
`21:22.35`	`Hhhhh`	`it doesn't take a lot to make C slower than java`
`21:22.39`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`(although on average, Lisp was faster than C)`
`21:22.42`	`Hhhhh`	`sjansen: lol`
`21:22.53`	`sjansen`	`Tene: Not just if you're stupid. By delaying garbage collection, you can get better performance.`
`21:23.09`	`Tene`	`Wait, isn't it cool to randomly bash Java anymore?`
`21:23.20`	`levi`	`hans: Scheme can be practical too. It's just usually used to introduce theory instead of any sort of practical programming system.`
`21:23.37`	`sjansen`	`No. Today we're bashing Python. Didn't you get the memo?`
`21:23.39`	`hans`	`i'm not clear how scheme diverges from lisp`
`21:23.42`	`Hhhhh`	`well, ok, i'll bring more references next time. That paper is a few guys' opinion, but i'll see what I can find (probably more guys' opinions, lol)`
`21:23.48`	`Tene`	`crap`
`21:23.52`	`levi`	`hans: But Common Lisp is probably the most practically-oriented of the current Lisps.`
`21:23.52`	`sjansen`	`scheme is a simplified lisp`
`21:23.55`	`hans`	`or any of the lisp family tree stuff, for that matter.`
`21:24.05`	`Tene`	`python python ruby java lisp python?`
`21:24.21`	`levi`	`hans: Well, Common Lisp was actually standardized after, and borrows from, Scheme.`
`21:24.24`	`Hhhhh`	`hey, when is Perl's turn? :)`
`21:25.01`	`hans`	`friday is our perl-bashing day`
`21:25.05`	`sjansen`	`(uses_parensp ('in_lisp_family) ('not_lisp))`
`21:25.05`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`hans: take a look at sbcl (steele bank common lisp)`
`21:25.26`	`levi`	`hans: Scheme was an attempt to cut a lot of accumulated cruft out of Lisp and have a simple, relatively pure language with which to identify what sort of theoretical concepts you need to implement an oop system.`
`21:25.29`	`sjansen`	`Tene: We never bash ruby.`
`21:25.46`	`levi`	`sjansen: Logo is in the lisp family, and does not use parens like that.`
`21:25.49`	`hans`	`Lone_Wanderer: oh see, names like that just make me wanna hurl.`
`21:25.55`	`Hhhhh`	`lol, logo`
`21:25.57`	`sjansen`	`levi: No it isn't.`
`21:25.59`	`Tene`	`man, I can never keep track of what's popular.`
`21:26.03`	`levi`	`sjansen: Yes, it is.`
`21:26.07`	`sjansen`	`Is not!`
`21:26.08`	`Hhhhh`	`Visual Logo++ .NET`
`21:26.13`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`what's wrong with a name like steele bank common lisp?`
`21:26.13`	`levi`	`sjansen: Whatever.`
`21:26.36`	`Hhhhh`	`ok, bye`
`21:26.40`	`hans`	`what's common about having 10 varieties of a language?`
`21:26.54`	`hans`	`what's so hard about coming up with one canonical version? things like that`
`21:27.00`	`hans`	`and who is steele bank and why should i care?`
`21:27.16`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`'cause sbcl integrates nicely with slime`
`21:27.17`	`sjansen`	`hans: You shouldn't! Fight the man!`
`21:27.26`	`hans`	`~fight the man`
`21:27.29`	`ibot`	`ACTION laughs as $var reboots falcon.fugal.net sending $who into the aether`
`21:27.29`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Java is the same way.`
`21:27.33`	`sjansen`	`See! See! Lone_Wanderer wants to attack you with slime.`
`21:27.53`	`levi`	`hans: Common Lisp is the ANSI standard. It incorporated a lot of good ideas from a lot of divergent Lisps (including Scheme, from which it got lexical scoping) and created a standard.`
`21:28.04`	`hans`	`ah, that sounds good`
`21:28.33`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`(not that Java integrates nicely with slime. it doesn't. but if I understand correctly it's nothing more than a standard defined by Sun, with several different implementations)`
`21:28.38`	`levi`	`hans: It was created when there was still a lot more divergence in platforms, though, so there are a lot of details around the edges that are left to the implementors.`
`21:29.51`	`levi`	`sbcl is a fork of cmucl that was created to make a more maintainable software base. It's more portable than cmucl and faster in some areas, but doesn't have an interpreter.`
`21:31.06`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`what does it mean not to have an interpreter?`
`21:31.22`	`hans`	`what about GNU CLISP?`
`21:31.54`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I was under the impression that sbcl compiled functions as you wrote them, eliminating the need for an interpreter (if that's what you mean by an interpreter)`
`21:31.55`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: It means that all code is compiled and linked into the image before it's executed.`
`21:32.17`	`levi`	`hans: GNU CLISP is very portable, but is a little quirky and doesn't compile to native code.`
`21:32.56`	`levi`	`So it tends to be quite a bit slower than its native-compiled brethren.`
`21:32.59`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`at least, when I write a function in sbcl + slime, I can immediately get the machine-code version of it`
`21:33.23`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: Right. But cmucl also has an interpreter.`
`21:33.34`	`levi`	`They just axed it when they forked.`
`21:33.48`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`so, why would you want an interpreter if you could just compile things on the fly?`
`21:34.12`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`it seems like the sbcl way is better than including an interpreter - am I missing something?`
`21:34.29`	`levi`	`I think it had some advantages for macroexpansion and such while you're compiling. I'm not sure what the advantages are, but I recall that there are some.`
`21:34.40`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`cool`
`21:35.10`	`levi`	`The disadvantage is that there are subtle incompatibilities between CMUCL's interpreter and compiler behaviors, or something like that.`
`21:35.34`	`levi`	`And it's a lot harder to maintain both and keep them in sync.`
`21:35.56`	`levi`	`hans: GNU clisp also has a smaller footprint.`
`21:36.44`	`hans`	`ok, but I want to be writing common lisp, right? that's the real question. which interpreter is coolest is not my main concern right now`
`21:37.10`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`right, but you have to pick an implementation of common lisp if you want to write in it.`
`21:37.14`	`*** mode/#utah [-o hans] by hans`
`21:37.35`	`levi`	`hans: Well, I'd say that common lisp probably has more practical stuff to build upon right now. An alternative would be something like Chicken Scheme.`
`21:37.56`	`hans`	`hehe. there's another of those names`
`21:37.58`	`levi`	`Which is a compiled-to-C Scheme with a lot of practical extensions.`
`21:38.47`	`levi`	`hans: Another funny one is Stalin, which is a very aggressively optimizing Scheme-to-C compiler.`
`21:38.57`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`lol`
`21:39.03`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`It optimizes with a steel fist?`
`21:39.22`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Unoptimized code is taken to a secret location and shot?`
`21:39.47`	`hans`	`for the Party, of course`
`21:40.07`	`levi`	`hans: In Common Lisp vs. Scheme, you give up first-class continuations for a guaranteed unwind-protect.`
`21:40.41`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`hans: if you're going to start writing CL, you really owe it to yourself to give slime a try`
`21:41.01`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`of course, that means using emacs...`
`21:41.02`	`levi`	`So theoretically nifty things take a back seat to practical issues, like being able to ensure your finalization code gets called.`
`21:41.09`	`hans`	`what is slime?`
`21:41.25`	`levi`	`hans: slime is an emacs-lisp program for interacting with Common Lisp.`
`21:41.43`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I'm not sure how to describe it because I don't know the exact words, but it stands for Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs`
`21:41.51`	`hans`	`well, if my lisp interest lasts more than a few days, it might be just the time to try to grok emacs too`
`21:42.12`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`but it makes it fantastically easy to write lisp`
`21:42.22`	`levi`	`Even if you don't use emacs for other editing, it's best to use it to interact with Common Lisp images.`
`21:42.41`	`Tene`	`no, hans!`
`21:42.43`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`you get your repl in emacs, and any functions you write can be immediately compiled and made available`
`21:42.43`	`Tene`	`don't give in!`
`21:42.48`	`*** join/#utah spiderbiter (~spiderbit@38.119.177.194)`
`21:43.12`	`bucky`	`emacs will make you wise.. slither slither hiss hiss`
`21:43.19`	`levi`	`Bah. I'm still a vim addict for my C editing, but I use emacs for interaction with CL.`
`21:43.21`	`hans`	`Tene: it's ok, my child. I believe it may be of value to understand the enemy better`
`21:43.40`	`bucky`	`emacs will make you gods.. hiss hiss slither slither`
`21:44.07`	`hans`	`there's those greek gods again`
`21:44.25`	`bucky`	`eve fell for it`
`21:45.46`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`levi: I do the same thing. vim for C-base languages, emacs for Lisp.`
`21:46.06`	`levi`	`hans: Have you seen http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ ?`
`21:46.20`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`ohhhh I love that book!`
`21:46.40`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`well, I loved it all the way up 'till it hit CLOS. then I went back to PG.`
`21:46.51`	`levi`	`Heh.`
`21:46.56`	`levi`	`I think CLOS is nifty.`
`21:47.11`	`levi`	`But if you were indoctrinated by PG...`
`21:47.16`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I'm sure it is, but I don't think he did a good job of explaining it. At least, I couldn't understand it.`
`21:47.29`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I bought PG's book first, and got totally lost and confused.`
`21:47.37`	`levi`	`Which one?`
`21:47.44`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`ANSI Common Lisp`
`21:47.49`	`levi`	`Ahh, okay.`
`21:47.53`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`It just moves too fast.`
`21:48.03`	`levi`	`Have you seen Successful Lisp?`
`21:48.29`	`levi`	`http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/contents.html`
`21:48.38`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`but javamonkey's book was a fantastic introduction, and after I worked through it I was able to go back to ANSI CL and work though it more easily`
`21:48.51`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`no but I will have in a second here :)`
`21:49.35`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`btw, I heard something about a GUI IDE for Lisp coming out soon. I think it's going to be an add-on to slime, but I'm not sure.`
`21:49.50`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`It sounded very cool for reasons which I can't remember right now, because I didn't entirely understand them at the time.`
`21:50.08`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: Oh, are you referring to the McCLIM stuff?`
`21:50.15`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`yeah, that's it`
`21:51.28`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`(One thing I didn't like about javamonkey's book was the lack of exercises at the end of each chapter to practice what I'd learned.)`
`21:51.32`	`levi`	`Yeah, there's some nifty stuff going on there. There's Climacs, which is an emacs-style editor implemented in CL on top of CLIM. And then there's an inspector and a listener that have the potential to be very nifty.`
`21:51.45`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: Yeah, I'd like some exercises, too.`
`21:52.50`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`oohhh yes, an inspector. the guy who was talking about it was excited to have an inspector, but I don't remember what they do.`
`21:52.59`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`and what's CLIM? just another implementation?`
`21:53.05`	`hans`	`they inspect.`
`21:53.30`	`levi`	`CLIM = Common Lisp Interface Manager`
`21:53.37`	`levi`	`McCLIM is an implementation of it.`
`21:54.11`	`levi`	`Since a lisp image is a live program, the inspector lets you poke around in it and inspect things.`
`21:54.54`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`okay, but what does it allow you to do that an repl doesn't?`
`21:54.55`	`levi`	`http://www.unmutual.info/images/Inspector.png`
`21:55.06`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: Graphics.`
`21:55.26`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`hey look, it's showing a list in box notation`
`21:56.43`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`if you could click on things to expand them that'd be cooler than having to type "toggle inspect blah blah blah"`
`21:56.51`	`levi`	`You can.`
`21:57.05`	`levi`	`The expansion of your clicking still shows up in the commandline, though.`
`21:57.09`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`bonus`
`21:57.11`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`okay`
`21:57.25`	`levi`	`That's the coolness of CLIM. Integration of GUI and commandline.`
`21:57.33`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`maybe this is what I'll do with my time when I finish my current project`
`21:57.55`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`my current project, which I really should be working on right now...`
`21:58.16`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`21:59.27`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I picked this name when I was at some distant and forgotten terminal`
`21:59.44`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`21:59.57`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:00.01`	`levi`	`So who asked about Self earlier?`
`22:00.02`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I'd been wandering campus, seeking out the ambrosia of a high speed net connection`
`22:00.02`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:00.07`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I asked about self earlier.`
`22:00.12`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:00.14`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`No, I was wandering, the terminal was stationary.`
`22:00.19`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:00.23`	`levi`	`What brought Self up?`
`22:00.37`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I did a google on something or other and found a link to it somehow or other`
`22:00.47`	`levi`	`Ahh.`
`22:00.48`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`and it sounded cool, too cool to be C-based`
`22:00.55`	`levi`	`It's an interesting system.`
`22:01.10`	`levi`	`Sun pretty much killed it once Java took off, though.`
`22:01.26`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`all I remember now is that an object can change its own inheritance dynamically`
`22:02.08`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Oh that was brilliant~`
`22:02.08`	`levi`	`Well, its main distinguishing feature from standard Smalltalk is that it's got a prototype-based object system rather than a class-based one.`
`22:02.23`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I don't even know what that means.`
`22:02.42`	`levi`	`Well, in a class-based system, every object is an instantiation of a class.`
`22:02.46`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`right`
`22:03.18`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:03.22`	`levi`	`In a prototype-based system, there are no classes. You inherit directly from other objects by cloning and extending.`
`22:03.36`	`levi`	`joshc: I'm a language nerd, yup. :)`
`22:03.47`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`so how do you create your initial object?`
`22:03.48`	`tensai`	`recap of mgm v grokster: http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,67060,00.html?tw=rss.TOP`
`22:04.04`	`tensai`	`"A judgment is not expected in the case until the summer." :(`
`22:04.14`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: You generally start with a base system with a number of objects defined.`
`22:04.25`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`but how do they get defined?`
`22:05.04`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: Well, objects are pretty simple. They just have slots. So you just define them.`
`22:05.13`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`okay`
`22:05.17`	`sjansen`	`Javascript is prototyped based if you use its more advanced features.`
`22:05.31`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`ugh, javascript`
`22:05.40`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I try to avoid that whenever possible.`
`22:05.41`	`levi`	`Javascript is a pretty nice little language, actually.`
`22:05.41`	`sjansen`	`Javascript is actually quite nice.`
`22:05.57`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`isn't making it work across browsers a nightmare?`
`22:05.59`	`goozbach`	`what's a curses based app on debian?`
`22:06.00`	`levi`	`It's hampered by the fact that most of its implementations are inside web browsers.`
`22:06.07`	`sjansen`	`It's just in the last few months that people have started to notice its power and use it right.`
`22:06.12`	`tensai`	`goozbach: kismet`
`22:06.20`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`few months? like since last November or so?`
`22:06.24`	`tensai`	`nload`
`22:06.51`	`goozbach`	`what is a good example of a curses based app that will most often be found on debian`
`22:06.54`	`goozbach`	`?`
`22:06.54`	`tensai`	`lynx`
`22:06.55`	`levi`	`Someone wrote a translation of 'The Little Schemer' to Javascript.`
`22:06.58`	`sjansen`	`Basically since maps.google.com made people sit up and take notice.`
`22:07.11`	`levi`	`sjansen: Well, gmail too.`
`22:07.16`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`cool`
`22:07.17`	`sjansen`	`There're people who've been using the full power for javascript for half a decade, but not many.`
`22:07.32`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`Hey, javascript folks`
`22:07.44`	`levi`	`Cocoon also uses javascript on the server side to do continuations.`
`22:07.46`	`sjansen`	`Yes, g-mail too. But maps was the real knock to the head.`
`22:08.09`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`how hard is it to make a popup window appeaar when someone clicks a link, then have it so when they click another link within the popup, it closes the window and populates a field on the original page?`
`22:08.28`	`sjansen`	`First, I'd argue that's not good UI.`
`22:08.36`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`okay`
`22:08.42`	`sjansen`	`Links should load new pages. Buttons should trigger actions.`
`22:08.59`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`actually, that's a good point. we had a really hard time deciding how to make this UI work right.`
`22:09.05`	`sjansen`	`(Yet another example of why just copying what the other guy is doing will get you in trouble.)`
`22:09.29`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`oh, right. I was actually going to use a button :p or a picture of a little calendar.`
`22:09.38`	`tensai`	`goozbach: dselect, screen, nano, less`
`22:09.39`	`sjansen`	`Lone_Wanderer: Generally very easy. Unless some security issues get in your way.`
`22:10.08`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`no security issues. I have control over the environment of the user, what with this being developed for a corporate office with a user base of maybe 5 people.`
`22:10.26`	`sjansen`	`window.open(...), do_something_in_window(), parent.path.to.form.item.value = 'soemthig', window.close()`
`22:11.11`	`sjansen`	`You'll run into the window if you close the window then try to set the parent field. ;-)`
`22:11.13`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`hmm... can you set two values in the parent?`
`22:11.27`	`sjansen`	`Usually the child sends message back to it's parent then closes.`
`22:11.46`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`can the message be a function call?`
`22:11.53`	`sjansen`	`yep`
`22:12.02`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`like, schedule_install(5, '6:00')`
`22:12.04`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`yay`
`22:12.06`	`sjansen`	`the child can cause constant updates in the parent`
`22:12.20`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`how do you send a function call back to the parent?`
`22:12.32`	`sjansen`	`The one thing is that browser are very picky about the relation between the parent and child.`
`22:12.50`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: BTW, have you looked at UCW?`
`22:12.52`	`sjansen`	`Attach an object to the parent window.`
`22:13.05`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`what's UCW? (no)`
`22:13.07`	`levi`	`UncommonWeb`
`22:13.19`	`levi`	`Web app framework in Common Lisp.`
`22:13.21`	`hans`	`University of California, Washington?`
`22:13.51`	`sjansen`	`The child window must be loaded from the same server as the parent; otherwise they can't talk.`
`22:13.56`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`oh right, I've heard of it before`
`22:14.13`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`sjansen: that won't be a problem, good to know though`
`22:14.21`	`sjansen`	`Some browser require that a blank page be loaded from the same server even if the child's content is entirely dynamic.`
`22:14.41`	`levi`	`Speaking of being a language nerd... I couldn't sleep last night, so I learned about Erlang.`
`22:14.43`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`the child's content will be dynamic, but will all come from the same server`
`22:14.59`	`sjansen`	`By dynamic I mean entirely created by the parent using Javascript.`
`22:15.38`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`oh ok`
`22:15.45`	`sjansen`	`Just remember, most of the JS examples on the Web are trash.`
`22:16.11`	`sjansen`	`If an example talks about browser detection run, don't walk, away from it.`
`22:16.18`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`mmkay`
`22:16.22`	`levi`	`UCW: http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/features.html`
`22:16.25`	`sjansen`	`Capability detection the correct way.`
`22:16.49`	`sjansen`	`if (document.all) <-- detect if function exists (good)`
`22:17.04`	`sjansen`	`if (browser.version) <-- detect browser (bad)`
`22:17.18`	`levi`	`Yes, daddy.`
`22:17.32`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`if (document.all) detects if which function exists?`
`22:17.35`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`the all() function?`
`22:18.02`	`sjansen`	`Or object. It's all the same thing to JS. Functions are first class in JS.`
`22:18.36`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`really?`
`22:18.38`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`that's cool`
`22:18.45`	`sjansen`	`Let's see, what else...`
`22:18.55`	`levi`	`See, we told you Javascript was cool.`
`22:19.10`	`sjansen`	`There's a recent rush of good stuff being written. Many will include reference to "Ajax".`
`22:19.44`	`synic`	`can anyone here read french?`
`22:19.51`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I can try, synic`
`22:19.54`	`Tene`	`also, include "copyright to tene" in a comment in all your js stuff.`
`22:20.07`	`synic`	`Lone_Wanderer: what does this page say? http://www.01net.com/article/271917.html`
`22:20.59`	`levi`	`hans: Have you heard the new New Order album that's floating around the net?`
`22:21.15`	`synic`	`oh man, new order is my favorite this week.`
`22:21.29`	`synic`	`levi: any good?`
`22:21.49`	`levi`	`Yeah, after a few listens, I'm hooked. I wasn't really impressed with the songs at first, but they grew on me.`
`22:21.52`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`cripes, I don't know. that's a lot to translate.`
`22:22.07`	`synic`	`levi: I think "Get Ready" is one of the best albums out there.`
`22:22.15`	`synic`	`levi: what's the new album called?`
`22:22.22`	`levi`	`synic: Waiting for the Siren's Call`
`22:22.31`	`synic`	`you can only get it on the net then?`
`22:23.25`	`levi`	`It hasn't been released yet.`
`22:23.32`	`synic`	`ah.`
`22:23.43`	`levi`	`The one floating around isn't legal and isn't the final mix, either, as far as I understand.`
`22:24.01`	`levi`	`The single 'Krafty' should be out sometime soon, I think.`
`22:24.13`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`something about Sun making Java open source, or something. I think maybe.`
`22:24.14`	`sjansen`	`synic: It says Mono owns all your base. Prepare your time.`
`22:24.35`	`synic`	`that's weird. I just started getting really in to new order the last month or so`
`22:24.50`	`synic`	`I've been listening to "someone like you", "crystal", and "vicious streak" over and over :D`
`22:24.55`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:25.18`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`synic: did you look at the Google translation of the page?`
`22:25.23`	`synic`	`Lone_Wanderer: no`
`22:25.28`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`it's not bad`
`22:25.56`	`synic`	`sjansen: blah :P`
`22:27.36`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`http://makeashorterlink.com/?B356526CA`
`22:27.47`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`that's the translated page, synic, if you don't already have it.`
`22:27.56`	`sjansen`	`"So a footer length of about 4 lines is acceptable for postings to blinux-list.`
`22:27.56`	`sjansen`	`And since rules aren't complete without exceptions, here we go :)`
`22:27.56`	`sjansen`	`For every 10000 lines of open sourced code a poster has written, an additional footer line is welcomed."`
`22:28.19`	`synic`	`Lone_Wanderer: thank you`
`22:28.24`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`sjansen: do you adhere to the idea that there is an exception to every rule?`
`22:28.42`	`sjansen`	`As a rule? Yes.`
`22:28.46`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`say yes so I can prove you wrong and feel smart ;)`
`22:28.47`	`sjansen`	`I mean no.`
`22:28.50`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`dangit`
`22:29.08`	`sjansen`	`That is... sometimes. Except when there isn't.`
`22:29.36`	`*** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@byu147137wks.byu.edu)`
`22:29.39`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`If there were an exception to every rule, then the rule "There is an exception to every rule" would require an exception, which would be a rule with no exceptions...`
`22:30.00`	`hans`	`Lone_Wanderer: but that rule has an exception, as you just showed, so therefore the rule holds`
`22:30.06`	`hans`	`so yes is still the correct answer.`
`22:30.13`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`which rule has an exception?`
`22:30.25`	`hans`	`the rule "`
`22:30.31`	`hans`	`There is an exception to every rule"`
`22:30.54`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`right, but the exception would have to be a rule without any exceptions`
`22:31.18`	`Tene`	`which is the rule "there's an exception to any rule"`
`22:32.16`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`either way, it doesn't matter :p so long as there is any rule to which no exceptions exist, then the statement "there is an exception to every rule" cannot be true`
`22:32.33`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`regardless of whether the rule with no exceptions is the rule "There is an exception to every rule" itself`
`22:32.57`	`Tene`	`it's true with an exception`
`22:33.28`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`but it doesn't say "There's an exception to almost every rule" or "There's an exception to all rules except for this rule."`
`22:34.11`	`levi`	`It may or may not be correct, but it's not paradoxical in the case that it is the only rule without an exception.`
`22:34.33`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`sure it is`
`22:34.53`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`if it states something that in the process of evaluating it, proves itself wrong, that's a paradox`
`22:34.57`	`levi`	`Rephrase it to "There's an exception to every rule, even this one" to make it more clear.`
`22:35.14`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`whether or not it's clear, though, doesn't change it's meaning`
`22:35.26`	`levi`	`Indeed, which is why you're wrong.`
`22:35.43`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`no I'm not :p`
`22:37.01`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`sorry, I just needed your playground insults`
`22:37.55`	`levi`	`I dunno, I'm flip-flopping over it's pardoxical nature.`
`22:39.53`	`levi`	`I guess it depends on whether "There's an exception to every rule" is a rule itself, or a metalanguage description of rules.`
`22:39.54`	`hans`	`"There is an exception to every rule" - if it's true, then there must be an exception to it as well, which is itself. that it is its own exception fortifies its veracity`
`22:40.06`	`hans`	`so yes was the correct answer.`
`22:41.11`	`sjansen`	`Absolute statements are always wrong.`
`22:41.24`	`sjansen`	`There's another one for you to play with.`
`22:42.37`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`how about "This statement is false."?`
`22:42.37`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:42.46`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`about three times now I think`
`22:43.14`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:43.17`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:44.06`	`hans`	`well, friends, on my list of fun things for tomorrow is an MPAA audit`
`22:44.55`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:45.27`	`Tene`	`http://www.public.iastate.edu/~crb002/prog.html`
`22:45.40`	`levi`	`hans: Why the mpaa audit?`
`22:46.17`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: That one's not nearly as interesting.`
`22:46.55`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`who's the mpaa again?`
`22:47.07`	`Tene`	`how about "the number that can not be described in less than 20 english words"?`
`22:47.09`	`brailsmt`	`Motion Picture Associataion of America`
`22:47.19`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`you been sharing movies, hans?`
`22:47.45`	`brailsmt`	`Tene: hoe sabout zero...`
`22:48.00`	`brailsmt`	`my description; nothing, or the absence of something`
`22:48.09`	`brailsmt`	`6 english words`
`22:49.25`	`Tene`	`that can't be right, because that's less than 20`
`22:49.45`	`sjansen`	`my correct tax refund*`
`22:50.22`	`sjansen`	`*assuming I've done everything right and the IRS doesn't hate me and a computer doesn't eat my return or mark me as a possible terrorist`
`22:50.54`	`brailsmt`	`sjansen: with a beard? you are certainly on the terrorist watch list`
`22:50.57`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`what is this number you're trying to describe?`
`22:51.23`	`Tene`	`Lone_Wanderer: you were referring to linguistic paradoxes.`
`22:51.32`	`Tene`	`this is another one`
`22:51.35`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`yeah but what number is it?`
`22:51.43`	`brailsmt`	`Lone_Wanderer: thats the paradox`
`22:51.47`	`Tene`	`it can't be any number`
`22:51.48`	`brailsmt`	`:)`
`22:51.58`	`Tene`	`because I used less than 20 words in the statement`
`22:52.08`	`hans`	`levi: http://www.wencor.com/products/manufacturers/digeplayer.html`
`22:52.23`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`blah. that seems like something you just made up to be a paradox :p`
`22:52.36`	`levi`	`Lone_Wanderer: It's actually a famous one.`
`22:52.46`	`Tene`	`yeah`
`22:52.50`	`Tene`	`check wikipedia`
`22:52.54`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`meh`
`22:52.54`	`Tene`	`can't remember the name, though`
`22:55.38`	`brailsmt`	`i have never heard of it...`
`22:56.51`	`brailsmt`	`\| 960 eval { print("file == $file, cur_dir = $cur_dir, prev_dir = $prev_dir"); };`
`22:56.54`	`brailsmt`	`\| 961 if($@) { print "Error with $server in get_file_change_history()"; }`
`22:57.17`	`brailsmt`	`will that print the error message if one of the vars is undefined in line 960?`
`22:57.37`	`brailsmt`	`thats perl, btw`
`22:59.01`	`TML`	`brailsmt: I don't think so.`
`22:59.42`	`TML`	`brailsmt: In fact, I'm certain it won't.`
`22:59.43`	`Tene`	`??`
`22:59.51`	`Tene`	`lone: details?`
`23:00.06`	`TML`	`Tene: That's when two dox are born on the same day`
`23:01.25`	`brailsmt`	`its also when two doctors are born on the same day`
`23:03.59`	`*** join/#utah misterpull (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com)`
`23:07.26`	`goozbach`	`I proved the birthday paradox in a Dee's late one night`
`23:07.34`	`goozbach`	`there were 22 people there`
`23:07.53`	`goozbach`	`my friends and I went around and asked each person for their birthday`
`23:08.09`	`goozbach`	`~wiki birthday paradox`
`23:09.45`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`the Berry paradox`
`23:10.26`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`goozbach: did you get a match?`
`23:13.15`	`goozbach`	`yes`
`23:13.19`	`goozbach`	`there was a match`
`23:14.06`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:14.14`	`joshc`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:14.39`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`if you hadn't gotten a match, it wouldn't have disproved the birthday paradox`
`23:16.09`	`goozbach`	`true`
`23:16.16`	`goozbach`	`proved isn't the correct word`
`23:16.34`	`goozbach`	`demonstrated is a better term`
`23:17.14`	`tensai`	`mathematicians and their proofs. can't we just agree that I want a cookie?`
`23:19.19`	`*** join/#utah bytheway (~bbythewa@gibraltar.deseretbook.net)`
`23:20.18`	`Tene`	`nope`
`23:20.28`	`Tene`	`it was proved last thursday that you actually hate cookies.`
`23:20.29`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`umm`
`23:20.40`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`does Godel's incompleteness theorem mean that you can never know everything?`
`23:21.10`	`tensai`	`it was proved last night that cookies give me heartburn`
`23:21.15`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`"What Gödel showed is that in most cases, such as in number theory or real analysis, you can never discover the complete list of axioms. Each time you add a statement as an axiom, there will always be another statement out of reach."`
`23:21.46`	`tensai`	`Tene: therefore, you just might be right`
`23:22.18`	`hans`	`I'll have your cookies tensai, put 'em here`
`23:22.19`	`levi`	`The uncertainty principle prevents you from knowing everything.`
`23:22.43`	`levi`	`Godel's incompleteness theorem has to do with formal systems.`
`23:23.27`	`levi`	`In any sufficiently complex system, you will be able to generate true statements that are not provable within the system.`
`23:23.53`	`levi`	`You can create trivial systems where this is not the case, but they are not very useful.`
`23:24.32`	`levi`	`It basically shot down the hopes of mathematicians that wanted to unify logic and mathematics into a single formal system in which you could prove all mathematically correct statements to be true.`
`23:25.58`	`hans`	`poor mathematicians`
`23:26.06`	`hans`	`have you read godel, escher, bach?`
`23:26.10`	`levi`	`Yup.`
`23:26.13`	`levi`	`Well, most of it.`
`23:26.15`	`hans`	`is it good?`
`23:26.26`	`levi`	`It's got a lot of great stuff in it.`
`23:26.32`	`levi`	`It's hard to read all the way through, though.`
`23:26.38`	`levi`	`But well worth attempting.`
`23:26.42`	`hans`	`it's on my list of big books I might read someday when I'm feeling masochistic.`
`23:27.01`	`levi`	`It's really a very enjoyable read through most of it.`
`23:27.30`	`*** join/#utah spr (~spr@c-67-161-219-228.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)`
`23:27.31`	`levi`	`It's got a very approachable style.`
`23:28.19`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`what's it about?`
`23:28.25`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`logic, drawings, and music?`
`23:29.16`	`levi`	`It's about his theory of cognition, which is based on self-referential systems that have aspects in logic, drawings, and music.`
`23:30.12`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`whose theory of cognition? Godel's?`
`23:30.21`	`levi`	`Hofstadter's`
`23:30.36`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`is the book by Hofstadter then?`
`23:30.40`	`levi`	`Yes.`
`23:30.57`	`levi`	`He's a CS professor/AI researcher.`
`23:31.03`	`levi`	`Some of his other books are very interesting, too.`
`23:31.21`	`levi`	`He had a Scientific American column called "Metamagical Themas" that has been compiled in a book.`
`23:31.52`	`levi`	`And he co-edited a collection of AI-related short stories and essays called "The Mind's I".`
`23:32.04`	`levi`	`He also has a book about translation.`
`23:32.12`	`levi`	`But I haven't read that one.`
`23:34.08`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`cool`
`23:34.13`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`so, the axiom of choice`
`23:34.42`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`is the function to choose from each set something that could be defined (assuming the axiom of choice is true) but just hasn't yet?`
`23:44.51`	`levi`	`I'm not familiar with the axiom of choice.`
`23:47.52`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`It states that for any collection of non-empty sets, it's possible to choose a member from each set in the collection.`
`23:48.59`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`which seems obvious, but when you try to define a function to choose from each of the sets, it gets messy`
`23:49.08`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice`
`23:54.03`	`levi`	`The Banach-Tarski paradox sounds trippy.`
`23:54.21`	`*** join/#utah xilch (~xilch@66.239.17.226.ptr.us.xo.net)`
`23:54.39`	`Jayce^`	`o/~ weapon of choice ~/o`
`23:54.49`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`hey, can someone tell me what "Earth's electronic systems have been self-organizing at the speed of light since Faraday's time." means?`
`23:57.00`	`Lone_Wanderer`	`I suspect that it may be completely devoid of meaning.`
`23:57.14`	`levi`	`Jayce^: Have you heard the new Fatboy Slim track?`
`23:57.30`	`Jayce^`	`no`
`23:57.45`	`levi`	`It's very catchy. It's available for free on the SXSW site.`
`23:57.54`	`Jayce^`	`I'll have to check it out`
`23:58.04`	`levi`	`http://2005.sxsw.com/music/showcases/band/19267.html`

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