| 00:13.17 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
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| 00:16.21 | tensai | I realized why I was so hungry. I didn't eat lunch! |
| 00:20.20 | sjansen | tensai: So I bought Pandora Tomorrow yesterday. |
| 00:20.25 | sjansen | I think it was a mistake. |
| 00:20.32 | sjansen | I only got four hours of sleep last night. |
| 00:21.22 | tensai | how far did you get? |
| 00:22.41 | *** join/#utah sncs (yrc@206.53.63.2) |
| 00:23.03 | sjansen | Only finished the introductory stuff at the embassy. Was at a LUG leadership meeting until ~10:30PM. |
| 00:25.01 | tensai | that was my least favorite level. it gets much better, which is great if you liked it so far. |
| 00:38.11 | levi | Woo, matrixssl works. That'll take care of securing my protocol. |
| 00:38.57 | goozbach | sjansen: you bought pandora today? |
| 02:17.25 | goozbach | friocorte: are you connected to the internet? |
| 02:17.53 | friocorte | what do you think? |
| 02:17.59 | friocorte | moron |
| 02:18.04 | goozbach | heh |
| 02:18.23 | goozbach | I love reading bash.org |
| 02:18.54 | goozbach | and being connected from two different places makes it so I can re-enact some of the greater ones |
| 02:19.05 | friocorte | I know... |
| 02:19.08 | friocorte | I need help |
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| 02:48.03 | Maquis | friocorte: goozbach: go for it... |
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| 03:26.22 | Maquis | goozbach: no |
| 03:26.43 | goozbach | it's got a sticky key |
| 03:26.50 | goozbach | I don't know why |
| 03:30.16 | mrpull_ | take pictures! :) |
| 03:30.23 | goozbach | I can't |
| 03:30.35 | goozbach | my only camera happens to be my treo |
| 03:30.36 | mrpull_ | with a _real_ camera |
| 03:31.08 | goozbach | darn... |
| 03:31.15 | goozbach | there's a seal on one of the screws |
| 03:31.26 | mrpull_ | void that warranty |
| 03:31.35 | goozbach | heck no |
| 03:36.46 | goozbach | too bad |
| 03:36.54 | goozbach | good thing I bought the extended service plan |
| 03:39.41 | goozbach | looks like a trip to the sprint store tomrrow |
| 03:40.15 | mrpull_ | oh yeah... we figured out the ROI on the "insurance" on those treos.... |
| 03:40.22 | mrpull_ | it was favorable. |
| 03:40.38 | goozbach | $500 for a cell phone |
| 03:40.47 | goozbach | I'd be stupid not to. |
| 03:41.15 | mrpull_ | yup. i'll break it two or three times before I'll pay 400 bucks in insurance |
| 03:41.45 | goozbach | I'm so glad I bought these torx bits anywho |
| 03:41.59 | goozbach | they'll be none the wiser that I took all the other screws out |
| 03:45.05 | Maquis | goo.... |
| 03:45.07 | Maquis | crazy |
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| 04:24.11 | mheath | Hey, I was wondering if I could get opinions on something..... |
| 04:24.45 | mheath | What do you think about the commercial idea of a $100 dollar computer? PII based workstation for web browsing, e-mail, word processing, watching DVDs, etc.. |
| 04:24.53 | mheath | Think consumers would be interested? |
| 04:25.39 | mrpull_ | how does the "wallmart" computer sell? |
| 04:25.44 | mrpull_ | isn't it 200 bucks? |
| 04:26.45 | mheath | Don't know how it sells... |
| 04:27.01 | mheath | Plus, they try to market it like a current, full featured computer, and people get pissed off with it because it sucks. |
| 04:27.16 | mheath | This would be strictly marketed as a desktop workation for the stuff I mentioned above |
| 04:28.15 | mrpull_ | it could fly... what do you think about the whole "google os" conspiracy theory? |
| 04:28.37 | mrpull_ | your pc is just a terminal to get to a bunch of google hosted apps... |
| 04:29.07 | mheath | Eh, no good |
| 04:29.10 | mheath | Web's still too slow |
| 04:29.27 | mrpull_ | too slow for gmail? |
| 04:29.48 | mheath | Anything more complex than that. |
| 04:29.58 | mheath | Google maps is slow on dialup. |
| 04:30.15 | mrpull_ | other than DVD's, what in your list couldn't it handle? |
| 04:31.04 | mheath | Word processing. |
| 04:31.27 | mrpull_ | really? you don't think they could do rich text? |
| 04:31.39 | mheath | If you wanted anything more advanced than Microsoft Wordpad, you'd run into a lot of problems |
| 04:32.07 | LeviHome | Why do you think so? |
| 04:32.08 | mrpull_ | 95% of MS Word users don't do anything more complex than Wordpad supports |
| 04:32.18 | mrpull_ | (98% of stats are made up on the spot too) |
| 04:32.35 | mheath | OK, what computer can't handle Wordpad? |
| 04:32.48 | mheath | Whats useful in putting that on the net? |
| 04:33.04 | LeviHome | Why do you think it'd have problems with something more advanced than Wordpad? |
| 04:34.00 | mheath | LeviHome, we're talking about connection speed. Could you code Microsoft Word, make it all run within a browser, and make it load and run great over a 56K connected user? |
| 04:34.13 | mrpull_ | i'm not arguing "google os" is a good idea... |
| 04:34.37 | mrpull_ | i'm trying to suggest that your mythical $100 PC might be a complement to it. |
| 04:34.44 | mheath | Linux. |
| 04:34.47 | SpecialK | people have been pushing network computers for years. |
| 04:34.49 | mrpull_ | (BTW, did you get the password reset on your new box?) |
| 04:34.56 | mheath | Yeah |
| 04:34.59 | mheath | what you suggested worked |
| 04:35.11 | mheath | First box I've owned where you had to leave the "reset password" jumper set while you booted |
| 04:35.16 | LeviHome | mheath: Yes, if you did it properly. |
| 04:35.32 | LeviHome | Text doesn't require a lot of bandwidth. |
| 04:35.39 | mheath | levi, we're not talking about text |
| 04:35.58 | LeviHome | Yes, we are. That's what word processors use. |
| 04:36.00 | mheath | Say I want a feature like Open Office, and I want to "anchor to the page" |
| 04:36.11 | mheath | and I put cool text effects |
| 04:36.15 | mheath | and use weird fonts |
| 04:36.36 | mheath | You can't send that to the client as plain text. |
| 04:36.58 | LeviHome | Why not? Web pages are sent to the client in plain text. |
| 04:37.10 | mrpull_ | (with markup) |
| 04:37.28 | mheath | Let me give you an example |
| 04:37.39 | LeviHome | Well, yes. The markup is text, too, though, so it's still all text. |
| 04:37.45 | mrpull_ | agreed... |
| 04:37.56 | mheath | say you obnoxiously want to make something with a big "THIS IS TEXT IN A GIANT ARCH WITH A SHADOW ON IT AND RAINBOW COLORING!" |
| 04:38.00 | LeviHome | mheath: If you want to insist it can't be done, that's fine with me. I don't really care. |
| 04:38.12 | mrpull_ | hahahhh... |
| 04:38.13 | mheath | and, you want to make it in a giant arch with a shadow on it and rainbow coloring... |
| 04:38.26 | mheath | How can you send that to the client using plain text? |
| 04:38.31 | LeviHome | mheath: Apparently you haven't heard of postscript. |
| 04:38.31 | mrpull_ | use that awful wordart thing in MS Word |
| 04:39.33 | LeviHome | Web browsers are programmable. Especially if you control the browser. |
| 04:39.38 | mheath | LeviHome, woah, there.... |
| 04:39.52 | LeviHome | mheath: Is a postscript document not ascii text? |
| 04:39.52 | mheath | You have to render postscript. Interpret this. |
| 04:40.02 | mheath | We're talking about not putting any real strain on the client. |
| 04:40.37 | mrpull_ | <xml><bigFrigginArch size=silly color=ugly>This...Coloring</bigFrigginArch></xml> |
| 04:40.38 | LeviHome | It doesn't take a lot to turn simple postscript into a graphic. And you don't even have to do it on the client. |
| 04:41.05 | mheath | Then how are you sending it to the client? |
| 04:41.07 | mheath | An image? |
| 04:41.15 | mrpull_ | why not? |
| 04:41.15 | LeviHome | A link to an image. |
| 04:41.29 | LeviHome | Have it show as a blank box until you choose to download it, if it's slow. |
| 04:41.35 | mheath | We were also talking about connections speed. |
| 04:41.43 | mheath | "H" [reload image] |
| 04:41.48 | mheath | "E" [reload image] |
| 04:41.57 | mheath | "L" [reload image] |
| 04:42.03 | mheath | "L" [reload image] |
| 04:42.10 | mheath | "O" [reload image] |
| 04:42.19 | LeviHome | mheath: Again, if you want to be obtuse, feel free. |
| 04:42.49 | mrpull_ | what is to stop someone from having a java applet or SVG or something else that renders it quickly? |
| 04:42.49 | mheath | And on top of this... |
| 04:42.53 | mheath | We're talking about google! |
| 04:43.15 | LeviHome | So, aside from Mr. Naysayer here, how is everyone? |
| 04:43.17 | mheath | You think they have the server power to render millions of postcript documents into images every second? |
| 04:43.30 | mheath | And the bandwidth to transfer those images to thousands of clients? |
| 04:44.06 | mrpull_ | you think they have server power to index the intarweb and all the images, and news, and usenet posts....and errrr....yup |
| 04:44.42 | mrpull_ | and maps... and closecaption text in TV shows and printed books.... |
| 04:44.56 | mrpull_ | and catalogs |
| 04:45.06 | mheath | Crawling the web and running pages through some text processing algorithms != rendering millions of images per second |
| 04:45.15 | LeviHome | Maquis: You ever get your VM project working? |
| 04:45.18 | mheath | Neither are those. Google maps works in a rather efficient, neat way. |
| 04:45.31 | Maquis | LeviHome: yup... |
| 04:45.39 | Maquis | got it tuesday evening |
| 04:45.51 | LeviHome | Maquis: Nice. :) So are you okay with virtual memory again? |
| 04:46.06 | Maquis | for now, i s'pose |
| 04:46.18 | mrpull_ | i guess the point i'm trying to underscore is this... |
| 04:46.23 | mheath | Hey, anyone here taken a course on compiler design? |
| 04:46.29 | mheath | Have a question for you |
| 04:46.39 | LeviHome | I haven't taken a course, but I've read a little bit. |
| 04:46.57 | mrpull_ | mheath's $100 computer is a natural fit for a thin client to a suite of online apps.... |
| 04:47.13 | LeviHome | Maquis: Any more projects left for that class? |
| 04:47.15 | mheath | mrpull_, also a natural fit for Linux :D |
| 04:47.20 | Maquis | LeviHome: yup... 2 more |
| 04:47.23 | Maquis | filesystem labs |
| 04:47.44 | LeviHome | You still have to implement FAT? |
| 04:48.14 | mrpull_ | yup. Linux COMPLETELY covered by a dumbed down interface.... |
| 04:48.27 | mheath | Most modern compilers...the scanner will usually devide all tokens into (id, type) pairs, right? |
| 04:48.36 | mheath | Like.... ("public", keyword) |
| 04:49.28 | LeviHome | You're talking about the lexing phase, when the text is tokenized? |
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| 04:50.28 | mheath | yeah, the scanner / lexial analzyer / |
| 04:51.26 | mheath | I'm just looking at a question in our "Preparing for the AP Programming (Java) test" book from school |
| 04:51.31 | mheath | er, was looking at it |
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| 04:52.36 | LeviHome | Well, usually the tokens get translated to an id... you don't keep the string around. |
| 04:52.43 | mheath | Theres a question in there, something along the lines of "Say you were writing a compiler in Java and wanted to keep track of the locations of { until you get to }. How could you best store the location of { ?" |
| 04:53.06 | mheath | It says you'd use a Stack.... |
| 04:53.26 | mheath | Didn't seem right. |
| 04:53.49 | mheath | If you tokenized the data like a proper compiler, a Stack wouldn't really be appropriate. |
| 04:53.54 | LeviHome | Yes it would. |
| 04:54.31 | mheath | How? |
| 04:55.45 | LeviHome | The { is a token. You push it onto a stack, and then you pop when you hit a } token. It keeps them balanced. What were your thoughts on it? |
| 04:57.29 | mheath | Doesn't sound as efficient as transversing an array or linked list of tokenized items |
| 04:58.02 | mheath | Nor as simple. |
| 05:00.37 | mheath | Perhaps I was mistaken |
| 05:00.57 | LeviHome | Well, yes. You should read up a bit on grammars and parsing. |
| 05:01.34 | mheath | Most of what I've learned on Compiler Design was from a book thats now 25 years old. I've read brief bits of newer books and websites, mainly to make sure that theory hadn't changed too much |
| 05:02.12 | LeviHome | A parser will generally transform a string of text into an abstract syntax tree. |
| 05:02.48 | mheath | I know that. |
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| 05:04.23 | LeviHome | So, when you reach a {, you know that you're starting a block. You want to keep track of where you are, so when you reach the matching }, you link the stuff inside as a single element to whatever it's supposed to belong to. You use a stack because the {}'s can be nested arbitrarily deep. |
| 05:04.46 | LeviHome | It's a recursive process, and stacks and recursion go hand in hand. |
| 05:05.07 | mheath | Well, since you know that the { is the start of an indepent code block... |
| 05:05.19 | mheath | and most compilers handle independent code blocks as unique sections.. |
| 05:05.24 | Maquis | you can also use the stack to ensure that everything has a start and an end... |
| 05:05.54 | Maquis | if you push a {, and then come across a ), then, when you pop the {, you'll know that something's not matched correctly |
| 05:06.11 | mheath | Why not just start splitting off, parsing it to a different location? |
| 05:06.26 | Maquis | how many different locations are you going to support? |
| 05:07.06 | mheath | I'm talking about different locations in memory. |
| 05:07.37 | mheath | I mean, since the actual compilation handles each independent block of code seperately, why not just split things up now? |
| 05:07.48 | Maquis | trust me... it's a lot easier to do it with the stack |
| 05:07.56 | Maquis | i've had classes that covered parsing and grammars and such |
| 05:08.27 | mheath | <Maquis> you can also use the stack to ensure that everything has a start and an end... <--That would have already been handled, BTW |
| 05:08.46 | Maquis | ok... |
| 05:08.48 | Maquis | but still....l |
| 05:08.55 | mheath | I'm talking about data structures used to contain info later, after syntax has been checked |
| 05:09.05 | Maquis | when you're dealing with grammars and parsing, stacks work really nicely... |
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| 05:29.04 | LeviHome | Hmm. I found a nice demo applet that shows how a few different parsing algorithms work, but mheath is gone. |
| 05:29.37 | LeviHome | Man, that kid bugs me. |
| 05:30.09 | mrpull_ | hahahah |
| 05:30.30 | mrpull_ | when he said he was studying for an AP test.... |
| 05:30.36 | mrpull_ | a lot came in to focus :) |
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| 05:31.31 | fozz | He comes. He goes. |
| 05:31.34 | LeviHome | mrpull_: Yeah. I have arguments with him all the time. |
| 05:31.54 | Maquis | at least he's somewhat on-topic... |
| 05:32.06 | mrpull_ | i've noticed he is contrarian |
| 05:32.09 | mrpull_ | i like that |
| 05:32.16 | Maquis | unlike some of our other young'uns |
| 05:32.38 | fozz | I disagree... with all of you! |
| 05:32.55 | fozz | Okay. Too much Diet Dew for Fozz. |
| 05:32.58 | mrpull_ | if you lead him just right, you can get him to disagree with himself. |
| 05:33.15 | Maquis | hahaha |
| 05:33.34 | Maquis | yes |
| 05:41.55 | LeviHome | I don't think he realized that his idea for parsing was essentially a stack. |
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| 05:43.10 | LeviHome | He thought he was being so clever, yet he was just being his usual obtuse self. |
| 05:45.34 | mrpull_ | here is my guess... he just learned about a new tool. |
| 05:45.53 | mrpull_ | and "when you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" |
| 05:46.01 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 05:46.12 | Maquis | when all i have is a hammer, everything seems to look more like a thumb... |
| 05:46.55 | LeviHome | No, I think he was just thinking too low-level. |
| 05:47.44 | LeviHome | ... "Instead of using that nasty Java stack, I can just store my current location in memory, move to a new location for the block, and then pop back to where I was when I finish!" |
| 05:48.41 | mrpull_ | hehehe... I was tempted to compare it to an instruction pointer in assembly... but I don't know enough about either to carry an argument |
| 05:49.04 | LeviHome | Well, more like the stack pointer. :) |
| 05:49.23 | mrpull_ | hahah... that's why we keep you around here Levi :) |
| 05:49.54 | LeviHome | Well, I'm rusty, so I didn't pick up on it fast enough to point it out to him while he was here. Oh well. |
| 05:50.51 | LeviHome | Anyway, life is much easier when you're parsing lisp and your code is practically an abstract syntax tree already. |
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| 05:54.42 | goozbach | http://bash.org/?1060 |
| 05:59.26 | Maquis | s |
| 05:59.33 | Maquis | stupid enter key |
| 06:02.21 | brailsmt | my favorite bash.org quote is: http://bash.org/?111338 |
| 06:04.00 | goozbach | I haven't done anything but read bash.org for the last 6 hours |
| 06:04.13 | goozbach | I need a life |
| 06:04.24 | goozbach | ... AND HOW! |
| 06:04.55 | Maquis | it's not much... but at least you might have time to use it... :) |
| 06:05.32 | brailsmt | i found wikiquote today |
| 06:06.57 | brailsmt | "The only truly infinite things are the universe and human stupidity, and I am not entirely sure of the former." - Albert Einstein |
| 06:07.44 | Maquis | hahahaha |
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| 16:38.34 | hans | ~spell anomolous |
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| 16:52.17 | Maquis | ~lart roommates |
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| 18:04.38 | Maquis | ~lart SpecialK |
| 18:06.16 | SpecialK | ~lart Maquis |
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| 19:08.25 | Maquis | http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2003-09-07-1.html |
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| 22:57.37 | brailsmt | xen + lvm == fun |
| 22:59.55 | brailsmt | of course it'll be much more fun once I boot into xen0... |
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| 23:20.48 | byronc | anyone use unixshell.com for hosting? |
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| 23:40.40 | brailsmt | don't ask why... |