| 00:00.04 | fishyfire | but trying to learn... |
| 00:00.16 | Maquis | fishyfire: don't start an x session as root... just use ctrl-alt-f2 and log in without the gui... :) |
| 00:00.38 | fishyfire | yeah to do the passwd thing |
| 00:00.41 | Maquis | it takes a bit of work to get multiple xservers running.. :) |
| 00:05.06 | fishyfire | that worked! thanks for the help |
| 00:07.15 | Maquis | no prob |
| 00:10.34 | Maquis | fishyfire: you in need of men's chorus tickets? |
| 00:13.15 | fishyfire | i don't know am I? |
| 00:13.36 | Maquis | i dunno... :) i'm just trying to sell 2 extra tickets... |
| 00:13.41 | fishyfire | hmm |
| 00:13.58 | Maquis | :) |
| 00:14.04 | Maquis | if you don't need them, that's ok.. |
| 00:14.10 | Maquis | just offering... :) |
| 00:14.28 | fishyfire | feels like mens chorus every time i go to class... so i guess not |
| 00:14.37 | Maquis | haha :) |
| 00:14.52 | fishyfire | thanks though |
| 00:16.39 | Maquis | no problem :) |
| 00:33.44 | tensai | Maquis: and that would be... |
| 00:35.03 | Maquis | apparently my permissions got messed up in the repository... |
| 01:02.03 | Maquis | someone has got to need men's chorus tickets! |
| 01:07.06 | Maquis | it's a great price for tickets... |
| 01:07.17 | Maquis | and it makes a great date... |
| 02:07.57 | findlay | Maquis: hey lets go! |
| 02:07.59 | findlay | (: |
| 02:08.13 | findlay | if you actually want to come down here and get me |
| 02:14.38 | findlay | ~lart Maquis |
| 02:20.42 | stuporglue | I lost a screen session, and don't know where to find it. I ssh'd into schizo.cs.byu.edu which puts you on a random computer. On this random computer, I started "screen" and was hapily editing, when I lost my connection. Yay for screen, right? Except schizo won't bring me back to the same computer. Is there a way I can find it? :( |
| 02:23.15 | tensai | for i in `host schizo.cs.byu.edu |perl -lane 'print $F[3]'`; do echo "*** $i ***"; ssh $i ps aux |grep screen; done |
| 02:23.35 | tensai | I hope you have your ssh keys set up or you'll be typing your password a lot |
| 02:25.26 | stuporglue | hrm. |
| 02:25.28 | stuporglue | I don't |
| 02:52.04 | *** join/#utah mrpull_ (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:08.45 | stuporglue | got it. Thanks tensai |
| 03:09.12 | tensai | how many boxes did you have to try? |
| 03:10.58 | stuporglue | About 20 or so before I gave up. I tried just editing the file, and VIM popped up some text to the effect of "this is being edited by mrm72 on volleyball.byu.edu, save, delete, recover, exit" so I exited and ssh'd to volleyball. |
| 03:16.32 | tensai | I just realized that screen names itself SCREEN. Oops. |
| 03:23.12 | stuporglue | funny. that line you gave me *did* find some screen sessions though. "screen -r" still registers as "screen -r". I think that's what they were (not mine however...there were too many computers) |
| 03:23.52 | tensai | yeah, it would only detect attached session |
| 03:24.30 | tensai | you could also have just searched for your username to find any processes you started |
| 03:25.48 | stuporglue | That's true |
| 03:37.21 | *** part/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 04:06.36 | tensai | Wells Fargo's "newly installed ATM machines all use the Triple Data Encryption Standard" |
| 04:07.03 | tensai | just upgraded from DES. why not jump to a protocol that *isn't* deprecated like AES? |
| 04:50.13 | LeviHome | Yo. |
| 04:50.24 | LeviHome | I now have my new (to me) camera. :) |
| 04:54.15 | tensai | cool. what did you take your first picture of? |
| 04:54.30 | LeviHome | The cat, I think. |
| 04:56.11 | LeviHome | It's cool. 10x optical zoom, takes little videos, records voice memos to pictures, has a continuous shot mode that saves the last 5 frames, etc. |
| 05:32.04 | tensai | mmm... rosemary and garlic. |
| 05:33.38 | LeviHome | Mmmm. |
| 05:34.10 | tensai | my wife hates rosemary so I had to wait until she left town to cook garlic herb bread |
| 05:35.36 | LeviHome | How can you hate rosemary? |
| 05:35.57 | LeviHome | This is way cool: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html |
| 05:41.19 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_lappy (~xbmodder@adsl-67-117-130-251.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 05:41.30 | xbmodder_lappy | hey my utah brothers |
| 05:42.22 | *** join/#utah hans (fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 05:42.31 | xbmodder_lappy | hey hans my man my man! |
| 05:42.33 | LeviHome | Hey hans. |
| 05:42.40 | hans | hey ho |
| 05:42.42 | hans | what's up? |
| 05:42.51 | LeviHome | Check this out: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html |
| 05:47.39 | xbmodder_lappy | sure |
| 05:47.53 | LeviHome | Stacks are nice, but sometimes they get in the way. |
| 05:48.42 | hans | very interesting |
| 05:48.56 | hans | so LeviHome, when you sit down to implement a state machine, how do you go about it? |
| 05:50.21 | LeviHome | Well, I usually draw a diagram and/or a state transition table. |
| 05:52.29 | hans | the coding |
| 05:52.55 | LeviHome | Then I codify the transition table, set up a context system for the machine, and a function that is called upon input to determine the next state. |
| 05:53.27 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@c-24-2-90-131.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:54.20 | hans | an idea came to me the other day about an interesting way to do a state machine in languages that support closures. I'll code it up and if I like it I'll share it |
| 05:54.48 | LeviHome | I've only really implemented them in C, so it'll probably be new to me. |
| 05:55.02 | LeviHome | It's been long enough since I've done it that it's not very fresh in my head. |
| 05:55.25 | LeviHome | Actually, I did some state machine stuff in Python, too. |
| 05:55.42 | LeviHome | But that was even longer ago, and I didn't do anything with closures. |
| 05:56.19 | LeviHome | hans: How do the closures fit in with it? To capture the state? |
| 05:56.44 | *** join/#utah mheath (~mheath@c-67-161-213-34.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:57.40 | mheath | Hey. |
| 05:58.22 | LeviHome | The C coroutines thing might have been useful to me at work, except it turns out there aren't non-blocking versions of the system calls I need to use available. |
| 05:58.56 | LeviHome | Although, I suppose I could write some sort of kernel-space wrapper to make them so. |
| 05:59.18 | Maquis | LeviHome: how would you do that? |
| 05:59.44 | LeviHome | hans: Here's another interesting example of cool hackery around C limitations: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html |
| 05:59.52 | mheath | Er. |
| 05:59.53 | LeviHome | Maquis: Do which? The kernel-space wrapper thing? |
| 06:00.00 | mheath | "C limitations" |
| 06:00.04 | LeviHome | mheath: Yeah. |
| 06:00.17 | Maquis | LeviHome: yeah |
| 06:00.26 | LeviHome | mheath: As in, coding some things in C is very, very awkward. |
| 06:00.35 | mheath | Oh. |
| 06:00.47 | mheath | I thought you were talking about limitations on what you could do with C. |
| 06:00.53 | mheath | If your computer can do it, C can do it :D |
| 06:01.04 | Maquis | (sorry to interrupt your soliloquy with a question... it just sounded interesting) :) |
| 06:01.52 | mheath | Speaking of that, I saw a kernel patch that allowed you to run programs in kernel mode |
| 06:02.00 | xbmodder_lappy | really? |
| 06:02.08 | xbmodder_lappy | is'nt that dangerous? |
| 06:02.15 | LeviHome | mheath: C is pretty tied to the stack metaphor, so doing things that are outside of the scope of C's stack handling are difficult. |
| 06:02.18 | mheath | Programs ran from a certain trusted directory ran in kernel mode. |
| 06:02.20 | tensai | as I was make my loaf of bread I discovered that I was almost out of yeast. I only put in 1/3 the amount called for. |
| 06:02.32 | mheath | LeviHome: "difficult" != Impossible :) |
| 06:02.35 | tensai | took a long time to rise but it tastes alright |
| 06:02.36 | mheath | You can do anything in C. |
| 06:02.43 | xbmodder_lappy | ~say mheath, have you taken xbmodder off your ignore list? |
| 06:02.45 | ibot | mheath, have you taken xbmodder off your ignore list |
| 06:02.49 | Maquis | LeviHome: so, how would you write that kernel-space wrapper????? |
| 06:02.51 | LeviHome | mheath: limitation != impossibility |
| 06:03.00 | LeviHome | Maquis: Getting to that, if mheath would quit being pedantic. |
| 06:03.14 | mheath | LeviHome: sorry :) |
| 06:03.21 | Maquis | tensai: mmmmm.... /me wants some!!! |
| 06:03.31 | Maquis | ~dict pedantic |
| 06:03.48 | tensai | Maquis: any time you come up I'll make you a loaf of bread |
| 06:03.53 | Maquis | :) |
| 06:03.59 | Maquis | that's a long ways for me to go.. |
| 06:04.14 | Maquis | ok... |
| 06:04.18 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:04.41 | hans | LeviHome: actually, the closureness isn't a requirement now that I think of it. You might even be able to do it with function pointers. |
| 06:05.00 | hans | I don't want to be vague, but I also would rather just code it up than explain it over irc :) |
| 06:05.08 | LeviHome | Maquis: Anyway... if there's a system call that blocks, it can be reimplemented as a non-blocking method by exporting a new interface to the same internal functions. |
| 06:05.18 | LeviHome | hans: I usually use function pointers in C. |
| 06:05.36 | LeviHome | hans: Were you thinking of using first-class functions? |
| 06:06.23 | hans | yes, that's the phrase I was looking for |
| 06:07.08 | Maquis | LeviHome: ummm... i think i'm farther behind on my understanding than you're taking into account here.. |
| 06:07.39 | xbmodder_lappy | YES! I MADE 100 DOLLARS! |
| 06:07.43 | LeviHome | Maquis: I don't think I have time, or the right context info in my head right now, to explain it very well. Sorry. :( |
| 06:07.56 | xbmodder_lappy | damn computer so hard to get working. |
| 06:07.58 | Maquis | ok... |
| 06:08.00 | tensai | I'll give it a shot |
| 06:08.24 | tensai | system calls are the interface between kernel and user space. it's how user space apps request the kernel do something. |
| 06:08.24 | LeviHome | Maquis: Basically, a blocking system call means that when you call it, your program stops entirely until the kernel finishes. |
| 06:08.38 | Maquis | LeviHome: ok... got that part from cs345... |
| 06:08.42 | Maquis | tensai: mmmmk |
| 06:08.59 | mheath | Ugh. |
| 06:09.01 | Maquis | i think the part i was confused by was the "new interface to the same internal functions" part |
| 06:09.09 | LeviHome | Maquis: A non-blocking call returns immediately, and you have to have some other channel to get the results of the call back. |
| 06:09.21 | Maquis | ok... so, for example |
| 06:09.38 | Maquis | if you call a function that's going to go do some calculations and return the result, |
| 06:09.51 | Maquis | if it's using non-blocking calls, |
| 06:10.00 | LeviHome | Maquis: Usually, in Unix, this is through a device file that you can do a select()/poll() on. |
| 06:10.10 | tensai | think of reading from a network socket. that's where it's really useful. |
| 06:10.15 | Maquis | it would send the parameters, make the call, and then continue down it's merry way without getting the results back? |
| 06:10.27 | Maquis | select() and poll() on a device file? |
| 06:10.56 | tensai | normall you would read() a file, right? it returns data if it's available or it waits until it is available. |
| 06:10.56 | LeviHome | Maquis: Right. Say you're running an interactive server, and you get a request from an ip address, and you want to look up the hostname. |
| 06:11.17 | Maquis | ok |
| 06:11.34 | LeviHome | If you just call the function that looks up the hostname, your whole process could be paused for the length of the dns timeout. |
| 06:11.46 | Maquis | k |
| 06:11.57 | mheath | Sorry to butt in for a moment, but does Linux have any way of doing RPCing? |
| 06:11.59 | Maquis | and instead, you're going to call the function, then continue until you get the info back |
| 06:12.01 | LeviHome | Instead, you want to create a non-blocking method of reading it, where you will be signaled when the data is ready. |
| 06:12.15 | LeviHome | mheath: Yes. |
| 06:12.17 | Maquis | ok... so, you keep going until you get an interrupt |
| 06:12.27 | Maquis | but what if you need that hostname? |
| 06:12.36 | Maquis | i mean, you're getting it because you need it |
| 06:12.37 | Maquis | right? |
| 06:12.42 | Newsome | do something else until you get it |
| 06:12.47 | Maquis | ok... |
| 06:12.48 | LeviHome | Maquis: You don't always need it immediately. |
| 06:12.51 | Maquis | so, wait... i think i get it... |
| 06:13.04 | Maquis | in my cs345 project, we have a program that's simulating an OS |
| 06:13.11 | Maquis | and it has a whole bunch of things going on at once |
| 06:13.19 | Maquis | and there's a function called "pollInterrupts" |
| 06:13.22 | Newsome | What if it's for the logs? You don't need the IP immediately...just sometime so that you can write it to the log. |
| 06:13.23 | LeviHome | Maquis: Think event driven programming in a cooperatively multitasking program. |
| 06:13.35 | Maquis | and it pretty much checks for a bunch of different things every time it goes through |
| 06:14.05 | Maquis | and for example, the shell piece of the program waits on keyboard input, but when the keyboard input isn't there, it's still processing other programs that are running... |
| 06:14.18 | Maquis | is that kind of the idea of how it works? |
| 06:14.25 | tensai | Maquis: think about carrying on multiple irc chats at once. you poll each window until somebody says something new. |
| 06:14.27 | LeviHome | mheath: See 'apropos rpc' |
| 06:14.52 | LeviHome | Maquis: Exactly. |
| 06:14.52 | Newsome | Maquis: yeah, along those lines |
| 06:14.58 | Maquis | mmmmmk.... |
| 06:15.15 | LeviHome | Maquis: You have an event loop that waits for events and dispatches on them. |
| 06:15.19 | Maquis | ok... |
| 06:15.47 | Maquis | so, back to what brought up this discussion... |
| 06:15.48 | LeviHome | Maquis: You never want to block, because then you can't dispatch on new events as they come in... you want to always be in your event loop. |
| 06:16.11 | Maquis | ok... |
| 06:16.33 | LeviHome | So, you use non-blocking calls, and you check for their return in your event loop. |
| 06:16.38 | mheath | LeviHome: does man rpc give info related to what your talking about? |
| 06:16.39 | Maquis | so, you'd have some sort of interface that sits there and does a while(1) check for new events, type of thing? |
| 06:16.45 | tensai | until 1.4 Java couldn't do non-blocking IO. so if you want to have multiple network sockets open, you basically needed one thread per socket. |
| 06:16.51 | mheath | Or some other RPC method? |
| 06:16.56 | LeviHome | mheath: apropos rpc gives you a bunch of man pages relating to what I'm talking about. |
| 06:17.13 | tensai | that's a lot more resource intensive than one thread that polls each socket in sequence |
| 06:17.23 | mheath | Is apropos rpc stuff rpc/rpc.h ? |
| 06:17.50 | LeviHome | mheath: apropos is a command that returns man pages that are apropos its arguments. |
| 06:18.03 | Maquis | tensai: mmmk.... so, you have this thread that just sits there in a while(1) type of thing polling sockets.. |
| 06:18.07 | Maquis | right? |
| 06:18.08 | LeviHome | mheath: But yes, rpc.h is what I was referring to. |
| 06:18.15 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@ns2.digis.net) |
| 06:18.23 | LeviHome | mheath: Of course, they are not the only way to do rpc in Linux, they're just the Sun RPC stuff. |
| 06:18.26 | tensai | Maquis: yeah |
| 06:18.30 | Maquis | mmmk |
| 06:18.34 | mheath | LeviHome: ah, never worked with apropos, sorry for my ignorance |
| 06:18.40 | mheath | I'm an info fan |
| 06:18.50 | mheath | GNU texinfo. Don't work with man much. |
| 06:18.53 | Maquis | so, it's actually quite similar to what we're doing for cs345... except that we're not dealing with sockets or networks... |
| 06:19.06 | Maquis | cool |
| 06:19.13 | LeviHome | mheath: There's probably some analogous feature in GNU info. |
| 06:19.16 | Maquis | thanks LeviHome and tensai that was really interesting!!!! |
| 06:19.24 | LeviHome | I know emacs has an apropos command. |
| 06:19.39 | mheath | LeviHome: so, this isn't really part of Linux then, but a set of library calls for doing RPC over true network sockets? |
| 06:20.53 | LeviHome | mheath: Linux-the-kernel provides features necessary to implement RPC, such as sockets and shared memory. |
| 06:20.58 | *** join/#utah fishyfire (~fishyfire@65.105.158.130.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 06:21.16 | LeviHome | mheath: Linux-the-OS has several forms of RPC libraries that can be used with it. |
| 06:21.30 | hans | mheath: don't bother trying to convert me, but info makes me gag. |
| 06:21.33 | LeviHome | I need to go to bed. G'night! |
| 06:21.58 | mheath | hans: the main thing I like about it is that GNU documentation is maintained in texinfo format |
| 06:22.09 | Maquis | i've heard that pinfo is pretty nice... |
| 06:22.15 | mheath | Man pages on any given system are frequently years old, and sometimes horribly obsolete |
| 06:22.25 | mheath | Whereas info stuff you can get fresh from CVS :) |
| 06:22.26 | xbmodder_lappy | dude, M$ has the wierdest phone messages |
| 06:22.29 | xbmodder_lappy | :-/ |
| 06:22.34 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: thats nice. |
| 06:22.47 | xbmodder_lappy | mheath, i know. its kinda coo. |
| 06:23.12 | mheath | hans: why don't you like info, if I may ask? |
| 06:23.34 | Newsome | ever try searching an info page like you can with man? |
| 06:23.34 | mheath | *texinfo |
| 06:23.42 | hans | why should I? I have not ever seen any reason to be impressed with it. |
| 06:24.05 | hans | it's slow, ugly, hard to navigate |
| 06:24.37 | mheath | Newsome: usually don't have to, as in a good info page you can just choose the right menu item |
| 06:24.57 | mheath | I like that info pages are multi-noded |
| 06:25.14 | hans | I like that man pages aren't. |
| 06:25.32 | Maquis | you can't search within the file in info? |
| 06:25.35 | Maquis | that sucks! |
| 06:25.35 | hans | info isn't a bad system for full-blown documentation. it's terrible as a quick reference |
| 06:25.36 | mheath | You can. |
| 06:25.43 | mheath | Maquis: you can search. |
| 06:25.43 | hans | you can, and it will get you thoroughly lost. |
| 06:26.05 | mheath | Info also supports reading from manpages.. |
| 06:26.16 | Maquis | ah... perhaps i misunderstood the comments... |
| 06:27.16 | hans | Maquis: you just took it to the extreme. you can search, but it's not like man. man pages are (usually) concise, and info is (usually) verbose and multi-noded and easy to get lost in. |
| 06:27.21 | mheath | And I like having an organized, TOC-ed, nice list of all my system documentation. |
| 06:27.51 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (bradipo@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 06:28.14 | mheath | hans: its not confusing |
| 06:28.23 | hans | yes, it is. |
| 06:28.27 | mheath | Every node is concisely labeled, and tells you exactly where you are |
| 06:28.28 | mheath | For example: |
| 06:28.50 | mheath | File: dir Node: Top This is the top of the INFO tree |
| 06:28.50 | hans | I don't even know the node map, let alone care to keep it in my head |
| 06:29.22 | mheath | "Know the node map"? What do you mean? |
| 06:29.26 | hans | it only tells me the current node and maybe a parent or sibling, I have no idea how to get to the node that talks about, say, plot. |
| 06:29.36 | hans | mheath: tree, whatever |
| 06:30.03 | hans | gnuplot documentation is a perfect example of painful info |
| 06:30.21 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 06:30.26 | hans | and I have swum for hours in gnuplot documentation so it's not just unfamiliarity. |
| 06:30.57 | Maquis | my cs345 book says that OOP and multithreading cause an increase in page faults, and thus cause slowness in program execution... |
| 06:31.00 | hans | I have also swum in a man page of similar magnitude, and while it's still big it's easier to navigate |
| 06:32.10 | hans | anyhow, I don't mind that people like info. I just can't stand it. And that is one reason why I am happy with Debian - policy requires every binary to have a man page, even if the debian maintainer has to write it or port it from texinfo |
| 06:33.11 | hans | in some cases, e.g. gnuplot, the man page gives precious little information and points you to info, but at least it says something |
| 06:34.06 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (~Hhhhh@c-67-161-218-202.client.comcast.net) |
| 06:34.14 | Hhhhh | hey whazzup |
| 06:34.29 | mheath | Hhhhh: welcome. |
| 06:34.30 | Hhhhh | i was reading in Slashdot about the antiporn bill |
| 06:34.41 | mheath | ...... |
| 06:34.45 | hans | Maquis: it is true that there may be more page faults when doing oop and multithreading |
| 06:34.50 | Hhhhh | what do you guys think? |
| 06:34.51 | Maquis | just with a quick glance at pinfo, it seems to me that man is much more useful as a quick reference, or when you just want a specific piece of information (ie, which parameter to i give to get foo) |
| 06:35.04 | xbmodder_lappy | Hhhhh, thats cool |
| 06:35.09 | xbmodder_lappy | how old are you Hhhhh |
| 06:35.09 | hans | I wouldn't be too hasty to say that it "causes slowdown" |
| 06:35.32 | mheath | Hhhhh: this channel is for OSS discussion. |
| 06:35.35 | Maquis | but it seems that if you want an in-depth understanding of a command, and you want to know what it's capable of in more depth, it seems that pinfo (or info) might be more useful |
| 06:35.53 | mheath | what is pinfo? |
| 06:35.55 | Hhhhh | hans: you might say you might get more page faults because people tend to use the heap more in C++ than in C |
| 06:35.56 | hans | Maquis: I'd say program instead of command. |
| 06:36.00 | tensai | Hhhhh: I think Zonk is a troll |
| 06:36.00 | Maquis | hans: wouldn't more page faults inherently mean slowdown? |
| 06:36.14 | hans | maybe. maybe not |
| 06:36.26 | hans | it depends on what you're doing, how you're doing it, and what you consider slowdown |
| 06:36.28 | Maquis | mheath: from what i understand (which could be completely wrong), pinfo is a version of info with vim navigation |
| 06:36.49 | Maquis | hans: why would it not slow things down? a page fault means it has to go to disk, which takes a long time... |
| 06:36.53 | Hhhhh | i code in a way to avoid using the heap when i can |
| 06:36.55 | mheath | Maquis: er... |
| 06:36.56 | hans | and most especially whether you care depends on whether a minor slowdown is more detrimental than the possibly huge benefits of either one of those. |
| 06:37.03 | mheath | like, info --vi-keys ? :D |
| 06:37.03 | Maquis | ?????? |
| 06:37.31 | mheath | (vim-like commands and key bindings for texinfo's info) |
| 06:37.35 | Maquis | hans: here's something i haven't completely understood: what exactly are the major benefits of OOP? |
| 06:37.42 | Maquis | mheath: i dunno |
| 06:37.45 | Hhhhh | in windows with multithreading you are guaranteed to have more page faults |
| 06:37.46 | hans | that's another discussion |
| 06:37.52 | Hhhhh | in linux you might |
| 06:37.52 | Maquis | i just know what i've been told... |
| 06:38.03 | mheath | Maquis: the benefits usually boil down to simplified programming. |
| 06:38.07 | hans | I don't know that oop will give you more page faults, other than perhaps it uses more memory, or the heap like Hhhhh said |
| 06:38.17 | Maquis | ok... |
| 06:38.45 | hans | multithreading, of course, could because you're swapping processes in and out. but when multithreading is the right tool I'd hate to see what spaghetti mess you came up with just to avoid a few spurious page faults |
| 06:38.46 | Hhhhh | i think that you can't say that OOP will give more page faults necessariyl |
| 06:38.58 | Hhhhh | but multithreading is more likely to do so |
| 06:39.13 | Hhhhh | 345 stuff, right Maquis? |
| 06:39.16 | Hhhhh | j/k |
| 06:39.24 | Maquis | i don't think it says that it definitely does, but it's saying that in general, OOP tends to be structured in a way that ends up with more page fautls |
| 06:39.27 | Maquis | Hhhhh: yeah.. |
| 06:39.42 | Hhhhh | and in windows you're guaranteed to have more page faults with multithreading |
| 06:40.00 | Hhhhh | since each thread has a different stack because of native thread support |
| 06:40.07 | hans | I'd be more worried about the context switches though, which are assured, than the page faults, which may happen. |
| 06:40.51 | mheath | Hmm... |
| 06:40.59 | Maquis | hans: but regardless of how you write your program you'll have the context switches, right? |
| 06:41.26 | Maquis | Hhhhh: so windows doesn't have a distinction between user-level threads and kernel-level threads? |
| 06:41.29 | mheath | Can Sun's JRE be compiled with gcc's gcj? |
| 06:41.39 | hans | well, yes obviously, but when it's multithreaded (or at least this is how it used to be before nptl), switching threads will be another context switch. |
| 06:42.01 | Maquis | hans: oh... i get what you're saying now... :) |
| 06:42.18 | hans | Maquis: iirc windows doesn't distinguish between user-level and kernel-level |
| 06:42.25 | hans | or some versions don't |
| 06:42.30 | hans | hard to keep it all straight |
| 06:42.56 | Maquis | hmmm... that's interesting... |
| 06:43.04 | mheath | a definitive kernel-level isn't a necessity :) |
| 06:43.10 | mheath | (Granted the way Windows does it IS bad) |
| 06:43.38 | *** join/#utah Hhhhh (~Hhhhh@c-67-161-218-202.client.comcast.net) |
| 06:43.48 | Hhhhh | ack, computer froze |
| 06:44.05 | Maquis | Hhhhh: sorry.. that sucks |
| 06:44.30 | mheath | Hhhhh: what OS are you running? |
| 06:44.54 | Hhhhh | back to multithreading, in windows you're guaranteed to have more page faults because of the windows kernel (contect switching is from thread to thread), as opposed to linux (it doesn't have native thread support, it uses the pthreads library to make threads) |
| 06:44.57 | Hhhhh | windows xp |
| 06:45.17 | Hhhhh | it's a hardware problem though |
| 06:45.24 | Hhhhh | i had the same with fedora in it |
| 06:45.38 | hans | Hhhhh: ah but you didn't try hurd. :-P |
| 06:45.46 | mheath | ..... |
| 06:46.26 | Hhhhh | i know it's hardware because sometimes it even freezes when running BIOS stuff |
| 06:46.55 | mheath | Wow, never seen a hardware problem like that. |
| 06:47.09 | Hhhhh | yea |
| 06:47.11 | Hhhhh | it sucks |
| 06:47.19 | Hhhhh | i'm getting a new box though :) :) :) |
| 06:47.33 | Maquis | sweet... whatcha getting? |
| 06:47.35 | Hhhhh | i convinced my wife to let me spend $1400 in a new comp? |
| 06:47.36 | mheath | You should buy my computer :D |
| 06:47.39 | Hhhhh | i mean, ! |
| 06:47.40 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 06:47.55 | Maquis | 1400? laptop? |
| 06:47.57 | Hhhhh | she wants me to get a dell |
| 06:48.01 | Hhhhh | nah, no laptop |
| 06:48.06 | Hhhhh | not good for graphics |
| 06:48.19 | Hhhhh | a dell is ok, but i'd rather get something with an AMD in it |
| 06:48.20 | Maquis | wow... 1400$ desktop... that's crazy |
| 06:48.22 | mheath | Come to Superior Computers |
| 06:48.24 | Hhhhh | i know... |
| 06:48.31 | Hhhhh | what's the site? |
| 06:48.52 | Hhhhh | i've checked PC Club, Dellm, Monarch computers, AVA computers, CPU solutions, etc |
| 06:48.53 | mheath | Their website sucks. Actually one of the better retail stores I've seen around though |
| 06:48.56 | Maquis | and it's moderately nice... |
| 06:48.58 | mheath | www.superiorpcsystems.com |
| 06:49.04 | mheath | Theres one down in Sandy, I believe. |
| 06:49.20 | mheath | I work at the Ogden location. |
| 06:49.42 | mheath | (The reason the website sucks is we're constantly swamped at every location, not much time for anyone to work on it) |
| 06:49.46 | Hhhhh | hmm, i'm checking the $1299 one |
| 06:49.55 | Hhhhh | don't like it though |
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| 06:50.05 | Hhhhh | ATI 9600 :( |
| 06:50.09 | mheath | Go to a store. |
| 06:50.16 | Hhhhh | i'll give it a try |
| 06:50.16 | mheath | 1) The info on the website is probably outdated |
| 06:50.30 | mheath | 2) The "Prebuilt" packages suck |
| 06:50.38 | Hhhhh | i know, i want custom made |
| 06:50.41 | Hhhhh | i'm kind of picky |
| 06:51.20 | Hhhhh | i want this: A8N-SLI Deluxe, GeForce 6800GT 256MB, 160GB, Athlon 64 3000+ or above |
| 06:51.41 | Hhhhh | i can get that at monarch computers for about $1450 with shipping and everything |
| 06:51.57 | Hhhhh | and 1GB ram, DVD+- |
| 06:52.07 | mheath | We can probably get all of that for you |
| 06:52.09 | Hhhhh | nice power supply (535W) |
| 06:52.18 | mheath | No idea how much it'll cost you, though |
| 06:52.43 | Hhhhh | i'll check the one in sandy |
| 06:52.47 | mheath | All I can tell you is Superior Computers is one of the better priced retail stores that I've seen. And I'll stop now, because I sound too much like a salesman |
| 06:52.53 | Hhhhh | if they can build me something like that i might |
| 06:53.03 | Hhhhh | lol, aren't you one? |
| 06:53.12 | Hhhhh | it's ok |
| 06:53.26 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 06:53.38 | mheath | Nah, I'm actually an intern there (It's unpaid, but its basically a class in highschool for me...no boring class in school, so I don't mind not geting paid for the short time I spend there) |
| 06:53.47 | Hhhhh | cool |
| 06:53.48 | mheath | Spend my time cleaning and working on computers. |
| 06:54.07 | Hhhhh | i wish i had time to learn more about hardware |
| 06:54.24 | Hhhhh | but 3 graduate CS classes can really suck your time |
| 06:54.30 | mheath | Some guy brought in a busted laptop and told us to fix it.. |
| 06:54.38 | Hhhhh | especially if you're not a grad student |
| 06:54.45 | mheath | "Issue: freezes when picked up" |
| 06:54.49 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 06:54.53 | Hhhhh | when picked up? |
| 06:55.04 | mheath | Yeah. As in lifting it off the table |
| 06:55.08 | Hhhhh | lol! |
| 06:55.27 | mheath | And several keys on the keyboard were broken |
| 06:55.40 | mheath | On top of this... |
| 06:55.58 | mheath | The guy gave us a copy of XP to install, but it was the upgrade version and he didn't give us an older version of Windows. |
| 06:56.05 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 06:57.28 | mheath | Makes me jealous working in a computer store.... |
| 06:57.36 | Hhhhh | why |
| 06:57.48 | mheath | People getting these state of the art, nice machines...my nicest box is a Pentium II 450 Mhz. |
| 06:58.09 | Hhhhh | well, don't worry, you'll have your turn |
| 06:58.20 | Hhhhh | i had to wait for a while to get something somewhat decent |
| 06:58.25 | xbmodder_lappy | my nicest box |
| 06:58.57 | mheath | Speaking of that box, I'm currently trying to sell it for $50 if anyones interested (Lots of extra, newer stuff and peripherals that make it worth more than that price) |
| 06:59.15 | Hhhhh | desktop? |
| 06:59.20 | xbmodder_lappy | mheath, i might buy that |
| 06:59.27 | xbmodder_lappy | how about a trade? |
| 06:59.31 | mheath | Hhhhh: yeah. |
| 06:59.45 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: no. I'm looking for money. Trying to fund Prom. |
| 06:59.55 | Hhhhh | i'll let xbmodder_lappy go ahead :) |
| 06:59.58 | xbmodder_lappy | your going to the prom? |
| 07:00.10 | mheath | ...No. I'm Just looking for money for it. |
| 07:00.13 | mheath | Of course I'm going. |
| 07:00.16 | xbmodder_lappy | heh |
| 07:00.16 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:00.20 | xbmodder_lappy | with who? |
| 07:00.25 | Hhhhh | he was collecting funds for his best friend |
| 07:00.26 | mheath | ..... |
| 07:00.26 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:00.43 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: you don't know me. How would you know the person I'm going with? Why ask? |
| 07:01.01 | xbmodder_lappy | umm... i am a teenager that is an X-stalker |
| 07:01.04 | xbmodder_lappy | :) |
| 07:01.05 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:01.26 | Hhhhh | well, i don't know, maybe some people in this room have good to the prom with their cousins or something |
| 07:01.28 | Hhhhh | lol! |
| 07:01.34 | Hhhhh | i mean, have gone |
| 07:01.45 | Hhhhh | j/k |
| 07:01.51 | mheath | Hhhhh: you at all interested? Comes with some nice stuff (New CD-RW, DVD-ROM, Laser Printer, Wireless Keyboard+Mouse) |
| 07:02.13 | mheath | Oh, nice case too. |
| 07:02.16 | Hhhhh | no thanks man, i'll still have my current freeze-box as a sidekick |
| 07:02.31 | xbmodder_lappy | mheath, i made 100 dollars to spend on a girl. not a computer |
| 07:02.39 | Hhhhh | and i still have twp broken laptops around |
| 07:03.02 | mheath | xbmodder_lappy: uh, ok. Thanks for randomly saying that. |
| 07:03.08 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:03.18 | xbmodder_lappy | heh. |
| 07:03.23 | xbmodder_lappy | not randomly |
| 07:03.35 | mheath | Hhhhh: My laptop has a hole cut out of it so I can fit the hard drive in it :D |
| 07:04.28 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:04.46 | mheath | Took the hard drive from an older laptop. Compatible, but too thick. Just cut away part of the cover for the hard drive compartment |
| 07:04.54 | Hhhhh | well, i actually have a PIII laptop around that i'm giving to my sister |
| 07:05.04 | Hhhhh | so i don't need another box |
| 07:05.10 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:06.24 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:06.47 | xbmodder_lappy | because you asked if anyone was interested. |
| 07:07.39 | mheath | Oh, comes with a WinTV card too |
| 07:08.12 | tensai | sometimes he sees a strange spot in the sky ... |
| 07:08.38 | mheath | tensai: I was wondering, what does your nick mean? |
| 07:08.40 | Hhhhh | mheath, throw in a licensed copy of Microsoft Office 2003 Professional and I'll buy it from you |
| 07:09.26 | tensai | ~x ja en 天才 |
| 07:09.50 | mheath | Hhhhh: heh, I don't even have a licensed copy of Microsoft Windows to throw on there. Unless you want 3.11 or 95, the last versions I bought |
| 07:10.01 | Hhhhh | i was talking about office, lol |
| 07:10.06 | Hhhhh | i was joking |
| 07:10.39 | mheath | Comes preinstalled with a customized version of Slackware Linux (the customizations are the beginnings of my own distro) |
| 07:11.03 | Hhhhh | oh cool |
| 07:12.07 | Hhhhh | hey, anybody has tried Dev-C++ in windows? |
| 07:12.13 | mheath | I'll give you a licensed copy of OOo :D |
| 07:12.18 | Hhhhh | i wanna know how reliable it is |
| 07:12.55 | mheath | It's Windows. Reliability == something you don't have to ask about. |
| 07:13.54 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:14.02 | Hhhhh | i don't think windows is that unreliable |
| 07:14.17 | mheath | Comparably it is. |
| 07:14.56 | Hhhhh | it might be |
| 07:14.59 | Hhhhh | i don't know |
| 07:15.05 | Hhhhh | never been convinced of either |
| 07:15.16 | tensai | Hhhhh: I've played with it a bit. never for anything serious. can't stay in windows that long. |
| 07:15.17 | Hhhhh | done both |
| 07:15.21 | tensai | seemed to work alright |
| 07:15.25 | Hhhhh | cool |
| 07:15.57 | mheath | tensai: "to speak" wa nihon-go de nan desu ka? |
| 07:16.10 | tensai | hanasu |
| 07:16.27 | Hhhhh | dama re |
| 07:16.46 | mheath | Doomo. |
| 07:17.19 | Hhhhh | that is the full extent of my Japanese |
| 07:17.24 | Hhhhh | besides swearing |
| 07:17.25 | Hhhhh | lol |
| 07:17.47 | tensai | Hhhhh: you don't need the space in there |
| 07:18.06 | Hhhhh | ok |
| 07:19.14 | mheath | I should head to sleep, seeing as it's 12:20 |
| 07:19.28 | Hhhhh | hey, I was cheking out Wofenstein Enemy Territory |
| 07:19.44 | Hhhhh | free very nice FPS |
| 07:20.39 | mheath | If anyones ineterested in that box, let me know.. |
| 07:20.53 | mheath | Ja ne.. |
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| 07:24.15 | Hhhhh | i'm out, laterz |
| 07:48.57 | xbmodder_lappy | uh.. this is great |
| 07:49.04 | xbmodder_lappy | i have two bootable drives |
| 07:49.14 | xbmodder_lappy | my computer can't tell the difference |
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| 08:41.31 | xbmodder | http://bash.org/?467125 |
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| 14:48.49 | mheath | Good morning.. |
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| 16:11.48 | levi-treo | Good morning. |
| 16:12.18 | Maquis | morning levi-treo |
| 16:13.04 | levi-treo | Tell them their lack of foresight is not your problem. |
| 16:13.37 | Maquis | i would, but my roommates just wouln't get that and they'd *all* be mad at me |
| 16:13.52 | Maquis | honestly, they get mad when i tell them that they can't borrow my things without asking first... |
| 16:14.23 | Maquis | or when i insist that things get returned clean and within a week of when they are borrowed without permission |
| 16:14.25 | levi-treo | Ugh. |
| 16:14.49 | Maquis | i am very excited that next year, i am going to have my own room with a lock on the door to separate it from the rest of the apartment |
| 16:14.57 | levi-treo | You need to not have roomates. :) |
| 16:15.04 | Maquis | that'd be nice... |
| 16:15.11 | Maquis | but not practical at the moment |
| 16:15.13 | fishyfire | or at least have nice roommates |
| 16:15.42 | Maquis | fishyfire: yeah... had those in previous years.. |
| 16:15.47 | Maquis | seem to have missed that this year... |
| 16:15.48 | levi-treo | Roommates suck. The bad ones make up for the good ones. |
| 16:16.06 | Maquis | yeah.... |
| 16:16.52 | Maquis | i don't see how my requesting a bit of responsibility and respect from my roommates makes me inconsiderate, whereas the things that they do don't make them inconsiderate... |
| 16:18.30 | fishyfire | it doesn't |
| 16:18.38 | levi-treo | I had one that broke one of my bikes, left messes and a foull smell in his wake, always wanted to talk about his self-inflicted problems, and owes me $1000 for rent. |
| 16:19.00 | Maquis | grrrrrrr |
| 16:21.30 | levi-treo | The $1000 would have been very handy while paying for my wedding. |
| 16:21.46 | Maquis | how did he come to owe you 1000$ |
| 16:21.48 | Maquis | ? |
| 16:22.31 | levi-treo | I took responsibility for paying rent for the apartment. |
| 16:22.41 | Maquis | and you couldn't kick him out? |
| 16:22.49 | levi-treo | So I had to collect from my roommates. |
| 16:23.08 | Maquis | they must've done things differently... i've always lived in places where each person has a separate contract... |
| 16:23.17 | levi-treo | I was stupid and didn't until he owed me a lot. |
| 16:23.23 | Maquis | you should've told the apartment manager that he needed to get kicked out.... |
| 16:23.56 | levi-treo | I kicked him out myself. |
| 16:24.11 | levi-treo | I just waited too long. |
| 16:24.30 | Maquis | yeah... |
| 16:25.30 | Maquis | or if you won't lend them money (or whatever else they want to borrow), then you're a selfish person... |
| 16:25.33 | Maquis | i'm sorry... |
| 16:25.35 | levi-treo | Heh, yeah. |
| 16:25.50 | Maquis | but if it's mine, and you want to use it, you'll have to wait until i say it's ok... |
| 16:25.59 | Maquis | if you want to use it whenever you want, then go get your own |
| 16:26.09 | levi-treo | No kidding. |
| 16:26.18 | Maquis | when i was here without a car, i walked unless someone specifically offered me a ride... |
| 16:26.33 | levi-treo | Me too. |
| 16:26.51 | Maquis | there was only one time that i asked for a ride from someone, and that was just because i heard that she was heading the same place, and i was wondering if i could jump along (it was also over a mile to where we were going) |
| 16:27.27 | Maquis | now that i have a car, if i'm heading to the store, i'll mention to my roommates that i'm going, and see if anybody wants to come... but i hate it when people come to me with teh comment "i need to go down to campus... can you drive me?" |
| 16:27.44 | Maquis | well, it's really close, and it's even down hill... go walk! |
| 16:28.35 | levi-treo | That's beyond the point where I attempt to remain friendly. |
| 16:29.10 | levi-treo | Civil, yes... but not friendly. |
| 16:30.01 | levi-treo | Which means a polite denial of all favors inconvenient to me. |
| 16:30.26 | Maquis | i've gone to the "no, i'm busy" |
| 16:31.15 | levi-treo | Good for you. :) |
| 16:32.28 | levi-treo | You will probably never see these people again after contracts are up, so who cares what they think? |
| 16:32.38 | Maquis | yeah... |
| 16:32.41 | Maquis | it's just really annoying |
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| 16:34.12 | levi-treo | Hi, mheath. |
| 16:34.40 | mheath | Hello |
| 16:40.32 | levi-treo | Man, I want to go back to bed. |
| 16:41.00 | mheath | Woah, it's only 9:40? |
| 16:41.34 | levi-treo | That's right. |
| 16:41.50 | mheath | I swear I woke up at about 8:30, and it seems like it's been ages since then. |
| 16:43.15 | mheath | levi-treo, want to buy my computer? :D |
| 16:43.40 | levi-treo | I have too many already. |
| 16:45.23 | levi-treo | Wouldn't get anything slower than my 1.2ghz Athlon. |
| 16:45.46 | mheath | Could you use a printer? Also selling a laser printer. |
| 16:46.12 | levi-treo | How many ppm? |
| 16:46.27 | mheath | Let me look that up |
| 16:47.15 | mheath | Hmm. HP's page for the printer seems to have died. One sec.. |
| 16:47.38 | Maquis | levi-treo: if you're interested, there was a laser pritner on sale yesterday, nad it will be back on sale in a little over a week... |
| 16:47.42 | levi-treo | Is it a ps printer? |
| 16:47.52 | mheath | Yeah, postscript |
| 16:47.52 | Maquis | ps pritner? |
| 16:48.16 | levi-treo | Maquis: What kind, and where? |
| 16:48.19 | Maquis | the one that's on sale that i'm referring to is going for 10$, and it's a HP laserjet 3si (i think) |
| 16:48.22 | Maquis | here in provo |
| 16:48.36 | mheath | Specs on the web are saying 8 PPM, but that sounds really slow comared to what I've experienced |
| 16:48.41 | mheath | then again I mainly print plain text |
| 16:48.46 | Maquis | a lady i know who's husband died in a car crash is trying to get sell/give away her husband's old computer things |
| 16:48.54 | Maquis | (he was a CE major and then a CS grad student) |
| 16:48.56 | levi-treo | mheath: How much is yours? |
| 16:49.28 | Maquis | the price for this one is negotiable... she might even give it to you for free... |
| 16:49.42 | mheath | levi-treo, how much am I selling it for? I'd *like* to get around $50 (it also has a partial toner cartridge)...Not sure how much used laser printers sell for, though, so I'm not sure if thats reasonable. |
| 16:50.17 | mheath | That price is mainly based on the starting bid prices for this printer on Ebay |
| 16:50.32 | levi-treo | How big are these? I have limited desk space. |
| 16:51.36 | mheath | 7.9 X 15.7 X 17.5 (HxWxD) |
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| 16:52.16 | mheath | The bottom tray has a 250 page capacity, the top tray (adjustabl for envelopes and such) has 100 page capacity |
| 16:52.26 | levi-treo | Hmm, that's pretty large. |
| 16:52.40 | Maquis | levi-treo: big |
| 16:53.15 | mheath | Well, it's a full size, tray fed, made-to-use-on-a-network laserjet printer. Fitting on a tiny corner of your desk wasn't their biggest concern :D |
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| 16:54.11 | mheath | levi-treo, interested, then? |
| 16:54.39 | levi-treo | Heh, yeah. I think I should stick with my inkjet. |
| 16:55.07 | mheath | http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/ie/en/sm/WF10a/5043-5343-5347-5347-12068343-12068343.html <--Picture of the thing |
| 16:55.20 | levi-treo | Just don't have room for a big computer thing. |
| 16:55.51 | mheath | Heh, it really isn't that big (my scanner/copier/printer inkjet is almost as big), but OK. |
| 16:58.36 | brailsmt_ | is anyone else getting spimmed? |
| 16:58.45 | brailsmt_ | on freenode? |
| 16:59.01 | mheath | "spimmed"? |
| 16:59.07 | levi-treo | I want to eventually make room, but I don't right now. |
| 16:59.11 | brailsmt_ | spammed, but for im/chat |
| 16:59.46 | brailsmt_ | i keep getting these private messages for xxx stuff... |
| 17:00.10 | brailsmt_ | i got one today for kiddie porn... |
| 17:00.22 | brailsmt_ | pretty sickening if you ask me... |
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| 17:24.01 | SpecialK | brailsmt_: sounds like it's time to change your nick. |
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| 17:43.50 | levi-treo | Blah. |
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| 18:51.45 | xbmodder | hey all |
| 19:08.54 | xbmodder | earth is 98% full, please delete anyone you can. |
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| 19:30.51 | xbmodder | HELLO!? |
| 19:31.17 | xbmodder | spim assassain |
| 19:40.51 | xbmodder | sigh...sometimes i really wish i could just ignore my brain and become a christian |
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| 20:27.57 | brailsmt_ | xbmodder: nothing wrong with using your brain and being a christian... i do it all the time... |
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| 20:47.19 | xbmodder | its a joke brailsmt_ |
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| 23:27.13 | tensai | ~electrocute hans |
| 23:28.19 | tensai | ibot: electrocute $who is <action> puts 40,000 volts through $who |
| 23:28.22 | ibot | okay, tensai |
| 23:28.25 | tensai | ~electrocute hans |
| 23:28.27 | ibot | ACTION puts 40,000 volts through hans |
| 23:28.40 | Maquis | ~electrocute emcnabb |
| 23:28.43 | ibot | ACTION puts 40,000 volts through emcnabb |
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