| 00:06.52 | levi | Still can't ssh in. Haven't figured out why not yet. |
| 00:07.15 | levi | Stupid pile of crap. Not having an MMU sucks. |
| 00:19.34 | bucky | :( |
| 00:20.17 | bucky | maybe tinyshell would be an alternative ssh server... but you want dropbear |
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| 00:45.40 | sjansen | ~lart Debian for automatically starting services |
| 00:47.21 | Maquis | ~lart byu for being stupid |
| 00:47.50 | bucky | ~cluebat sjansen with update-rc.d |
| 00:47.52 | ibot | ACTION pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps sjansen with update-rc.d. |
| 00:49.02 | sjansen | bucky: And how exactly is that supposed to change the fact that by default installing a package results in services in that package being started as a part of the install? |
| 00:49.57 | bucky | it doesn't... but it's probably the lesser of two evils while trying to answer questions in an irc channel with 800 users |
| 00:50.15 | sjansen | And how does that change the fact that upgrading apache-perl results in apache-perl being started by itself instead of bricolage-cms starting apache-perl correctly? |
| 00:50.40 | sjansen | bucky: No, the lesser of two evils would be Debian not starting a service until I tell it to start a service. |
| 00:51.25 | bucky | that's a matter of opinion... but you'd be surprised how many noobs can't figure out why a service isn't started when they install something |
| 00:51.36 | sjansen | No, it's a matter of security. |
| 00:52.02 | sjansen | A service shouldn't be started until it's administrator is sure it is configured as desired and actually needed. |
| 00:52.18 | bucky | as far as bricolage is concerned... it's not from a debian repository and it's not officially supported by debian |
| 00:53.18 | sjansen | bucky: You're just full of useless excuses aren't you? |
| 00:53.34 | bucky | i don't have any complaints |
| 00:53.55 | bucky | you could always start your own debian clone like the 500 others out there |
| 00:53.57 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~chatzilla@byu081013wks.byu.edu) |
| 00:54.27 | Maquis | |lart SpecialK |
| 00:54.37 | SpecialK | |lart Maquis |
| 00:54.50 | SpecialK | on a 386 |
| 01:01.06 | sjansen | Argh! |
| 01:01.23 | bucky | sjansen, i think bricolage depends on libapache-mod-perl not apache-perl |
| 01:02.04 | sjansen | Hmmm, I'll have to bring that up with hans. If we can get rid of apache-perl, that'll be one less thing to go wrong. |
| 01:02.38 | bucky | here's a good article about it |
| 01:02.39 | bucky | http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/10/28/bricolage_installation.html |
| 01:02.51 | bucky | apache-perl is not a good idea |
| 01:04.14 | bucky | i'd like to see you get it up and running... i got it going but i had a hard time figuring out themes and admin.. etc |
| 01:04.24 | bucky | but it's probably not that hard |
| 01:04.36 | bucky | anyway... good luck |
| 01:04.40 | sjansen | We've got bricolage up and running, thanks to the debs. |
| 01:04.58 | sjansen | Installing from source is a beast. Tried doing it a few times and ran screaming. |
| 01:05.03 | bucky | have a nice evening |
| 01:05.07 | *** part/#utah bucky (~bucky@bucky.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 01:05.25 | sjansen | huh, guess I won't tell him that I can help with theme and admin questions |
| 01:14.11 | Maquis | sjansen: calm down... :) |
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| 02:11.15 | levi | Heh, that tsh program makes extensive use of fork. And causes the machine to reboot when the command finishes running. |
| 02:11.32 | levi | (when fork is redefined to vfork, so it will run) |
| 02:12.28 | tene | how convenient |
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| 02:27.03 | brailsmt | can i determine my BIOS from the cmd line? |
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| 02:45.13 | tensai | yay for judges who get it! |
| 02:45.16 | tensai | http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7703873 |
| 02:57.54 | Maquis | tensai: not getting it here... |
| 02:58.18 | tensai | you know reuters, they always load their pages up with porn |
| 02:58.29 | Maquis | tensai: not a byu blockage... |
| 02:58.35 | Maquis | just a "article not found" with that link |
| 02:59.16 | tensai | sorry. works great for me. |
| 02:59.30 | Maquis | is it the "HP printer cartridges die before use" article? |
| 02:59.37 | Maquis | (i'm looking around for it) |
| 02:59.45 | tene | nope |
| 02:59.47 | tene | it's about FCC |
| 02:59.58 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 03:00.00 | tensai | broadcast flag |
| 03:00.05 | Maquis | wonder why i can't get it... |
| 03:00.20 | tensai | it's a sign that you should watch less tv |
| 03:00.49 | Maquis | ah... |
| 03:00.51 | Maquis | found it |
| 03:01.18 | tensai | was it under the couch? |
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| 03:10.34 | LeviHome | Yay for judges who get it! |
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| 04:21.11 | misterpull | wahooo... |
| 04:21.27 | misterpull | i just removed 35 viruses from my brother in law's computer |
| 04:21.30 | misterpull | and i'm not done yet |
| 04:22.05 | fishyfire | joke at work is if something isn't working just restart the computer.... |
| 04:22.19 | fishyfire | and you could still turn the machine on??? |
| 04:24.13 | misterpull | they were mostly trojans (i believe) to send spam :-/ |
| 04:24.19 | fishyfire | hmm |
| 04:24.23 | fishyfire | fun stuff |
| 04:24.31 | misterpull | so it'd still ran windows... |
| 04:24.34 | misterpull | just slowly |
| 04:27.02 | fishyfire | i can imagine |
| 04:30.11 | misterpull | 24 needed windows patches.... |
| 04:30.12 | misterpull | grrrr |
| 04:33.25 | Maquis | misterpull: when i got to work this past summer, my bosses were somewhat startled that my laptop (which i used for work, and which dual-booted linux and windows) was 8 months behind on windows updates and such... |
| 04:33.37 | Maquis | i hadn't booted into windows the entire school year... |
| 04:33.40 | Maquis | :) |
| 04:33.42 | misterpull | niiice. |
| 04:33.44 | misterpull | well done |
| 04:33.46 | Maquis | luckily, they had a nice firewall |
| 04:33.57 | misterpull | my bro just got comcast |
| 04:34.09 | misterpull | and they helpfully disabled his firewall and virus scanner |
| 04:34.11 | misterpull | suckers |
| 04:34.17 | Maquis | ouch! |
| 04:34.39 | misterpull | they weren't up to date... but would have helped a little |
| 04:35.04 | misterpull | it is days like these that I think people should be licensed to operate a computer |
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| 04:48.10 | misterpull | arggh... low battery. |
| 04:48.25 | misterpull | who knew i'd be here 4 hours :-/ |
| 04:48.36 | misterpull | 4 hours of battery isn't bad tho.... |
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| 04:57.15 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See plug.org, uug.byu.edu, sllug.org, fslc.usu.edu, etc. Utah Windows Admins Anonymous: utwaa.org |
| 04:57.16 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 05:18.27 | *** join/#utah ibot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 05:18.27 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See plug.org, uug.byu.edu, sllug.org, fslc.usu.edu, etc. Utah Windows Admins Anonymous: utwaa.org |
| 05:18.27 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
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| 05:19.11 | brailsmt | yes, i asked last night... and i am reasking becuase i don't have an answer yet... |
| 05:19.29 | vontrapp | gah, ie doesn't even take #XXX colors |
| 05:21.43 | Maquis | brailsmt: just checking |
| 05:21.54 | Maquis | GAH!!! this book is *BORING*!!! |
| 05:22.31 | brailsmt | Newsome: bingo, thx |
| 05:22.39 | Newsome | no problem |
| 05:22.59 | brailsmt | is there a way to flash the BIOS witout a windows boot floppy? |
| 05:24.56 | *** join/#utah flyboy^ (~flyboy@69.20.57.22) |
| 05:25.16 | flyboy^ | Brandon, you around? |
| 05:26.50 | flyboy^ | Anyone around? ;) |
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| 05:35.12 | *** join/#utah findlay (~justin@65.203.174.134) |
| 05:35.46 | findlay | hello Maquis |
| 05:36.35 | flyboy^ | I think everyone is hiding. |
| 05:37.47 | xbmodder | except me! |
| 05:37.48 | xbmodder | :) |
| 05:38.30 | Maquis | findlay: hi |
| 05:38.40 | flyboy^ | So, anyone doing anything interesting tonight? |
| 05:38.43 | Maquis | i have recently found a new use for google |
| 05:38.55 | Maquis | see, my roommate has made a goal of going to bed at 10 |
| 05:39.06 | Maquis | but there are tons of people out in the living room being loud and distracting |
| 05:39.21 | Maquis | so i open up google on my laptop, and use it as a light, and do my homework that way :) |
| 05:39.49 | Maquis | (google is a mostly white screen) |
| 05:39.56 | flyboy^ | Google as nightlight. Original. |
| 05:40.01 | Maquis | :) |
| 05:40.17 | flyboy^ | Anyone want to take a quiz? |
| 05:40.29 | flyboy^ | A short one question quiz. |
| 05:40.29 | Maquis | quiz about? |
| 05:40.45 | flyboy^ | Linux/ext*/file systems, blah blah |
| 05:41.12 | flyboy^ | Okay - here is the question - no cheating! ... |
| 05:41.24 | flyboy^ | Name at least 10 things an Inode tracks. |
| 05:41.58 | flyboy^ | What are at least 10 things an Inode tracks? (question form). |
| 05:42.03 | flyboy^ | Now remember, no cheating. |
| 05:42.10 | flyboy^ | Try to do it on your own first. :) |
| 05:43.02 | flyboy^ | I guess /msg me your answers so no one else can see? If you want. |
| 05:44.28 | flyboy^ | Humm... not interested, or have no idea? |
| 05:45.34 | flyboy^ | Wow, okay - does my breath stink or what? ;) |
| 05:46.22 | dataw0lf | you should at least offer to hand out cookies if people participate. |
| 05:47.42 | flyboy^ | Participate because you are a geek/nerd and you want to show your prowes and 1337 knowledge. |
| 05:48.12 | flyboy^ | Free cookies. Anyone? |
| 05:48.19 | dataw0lf | Ok, for free cookies I will. |
| 05:48.32 | dataw0lf | shoot, for cookies I'll give you every i_flag |
| 05:48.40 | flyboy^ | lol |
| 05:49.09 | flyboy^ | I asked a fellow sys admin this question today - he got 3. |
| 05:49.14 | brailsmt | how can I write a disk image to a floppy? |
| 05:49.17 | flyboy^ | I asked our Jr. "What's an Inode?" |
| 05:49.24 | flyboy^ | brailsmt: dd is a good choice. |
| 05:49.38 | dataw0lf | so should I msg you ? I don't think I have ten though. |
| 05:49.47 | flyboy^ | Sure - /msg away. |
| 05:51.50 | Maquis | flyboy^: if i knew anything on the topic, i'd be glad to take part |
| 05:52.01 | Maquis | i'd like to see what the answer is though |
| 05:52.26 | flyboy^ | Okay - the answer will be forthcoming. |
| 05:53.21 | xbmodder | ? |
| 05:53.44 | flyboy^ | Okay - the only one to guess was dataw0lf - so he wins by default. ;) |
| 05:53.59 | flyboy^ | He got quite a few. |
| 05:54.12 | flyboy^ | 5 or 6 of 'em. |
| 05:54.34 | xbmodder | would someone here hold a linux test? sorta like do it and who ever gets it first wins? |
| 05:54.50 | flyboy^ | Okay - the fast way to see an inode for a file is with the 'stat' utility. Ever use that? |
| 05:55.17 | flyboy^ | Here are some examples: file name, uid, gid, mode, ctime, atime, mtime, blocks, count.... |
| 05:55.36 | flyboy^ | To see a real inode use the debugfs utility. |
| 05:55.54 | flyboy^ | debugfs /dev/<some partition> |
| 05:55.58 | flyboy^ | It mounts read-only - don't worry. ;-) |
| 05:56.10 | flyboy^ | Then, once in command mode do an "ls" |
| 05:56.18 | flyboy^ | then a 'q' to get out of more/less |
| 05:56.27 | Maquis | flyboy^: cool |
| 05:56.28 | Maquis | :) |
| 05:56.31 | flyboy^ | then 'stat <file name you see in output>' |
| 05:56.39 | flyboy^ | That will show you a very complete inode. |
| 05:57.09 | flyboy^ | There are about 20 fields an inode tracks in an ext2/3 file system. |
| 05:58.08 | flyboy^ | xbmodder: brainshare has a free linux sys admin test. Not sure how good it is though cause it said I ranked higher than like 97% of the other test takers. |
| 05:58.30 | flyboy^ | xbmodder: Not sure if 8,000 people just took the test and guessed or what. |
| 05:59.09 | Maquis | flyboy^: what's the address for that? |
| 05:59.40 | flyboy^ | Let me see if I can find it, I might be wrong. |
| 05:59.44 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@208.186.134.102) |
| 06:00.15 | flyboy^ | I am. |
| 06:00.18 | flyboy^ | brainbench.com |
| 06:00.27 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@208.186.134.102) |
| 06:01.05 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@208.186.134.102) |
| 06:01.07 | flyboy^ | Oo - I have slipped. 92%. |
| 06:01.22 | flyboy^ | You can see my transcript with this number: 5137785 |
| 06:01.34 | Maquis | is there a way to get in without registering? |
| 06:01.59 | flyboy^ | No, the point is that they really want to lock it down to you, so you can't keep taking it over and over again until you get a high score. |
| 06:02.47 | Maquis | oh... |
| 06:03.01 | flyboy^ | So it has some form of legitimacy. Wouldn't bet the farm on it, but it's supposed to be semi-reliable. |
| 06:03.43 | flyboy^ | The test I took was the first go around. You only get one shot. |
| 06:03.58 | flyboy^ | So it's a good test to compare against with others (in my opinion, for a free test). |
| 06:05.09 | flyboy^ | "Terminology & Syntax 1.0" - that's what man is for - for crying out loud. |
| 06:18.02 | xbmodder | why is child porn so hated? can't they let it go out? they should spend those billions of dollars on police or something useful |
| 06:18.31 | xbmodder | police for the kids? |
| 06:18.35 | flyboy^ | Do you have kids? |
| 06:20.08 | LeviHome | He's a kid himself. |
| 06:20.28 | flyboy^ | Having kids changes how you feel about the subject I think. |
| 06:21.23 | flyboy^ | You become much more outraged at even the simple idea that someone would do such a thing, let alone distribute it to others. |
| 06:21.46 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 06:27.07 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 06:27.23 | Maquis | flyboy^: i might've helped your score a bit... |
| 06:27.30 | flyboy^ | oh? |
| 06:27.35 | Maquis | i scored higher than 58%... |
| 06:28.00 | Maquis | i got 2.73 |
| 06:28.02 | flyboy^ | Sweet. |
| 06:28.08 | flyboy^ | How long have you been using Linux? |
| 06:28.11 | Maquis | the minimum score for a certification is 2.75 |
| 06:28.19 | Maquis | flyboy^: just over 2 years now |
| 06:28.28 | flyboy^ | Ahh- I've been doing it for 7. |
| 06:28.39 | Maquis | ah... |
| 06:28.47 | flyboy^ | I think someone with tons of UNIX experience could go in and ace it. |
| 06:29.18 | Maquis | i find it funny that networking is one of my strong areas... |
| 06:29.49 | flyboy^ | Tough test isn't it? |
| 06:29.58 | Maquis | yeah... |
| 06:30.08 | Maquis | kind of like the ones on redhat's page |
| 06:31.08 | Maquis | why was their kernel compilation question based on a 2.4 kernel? |
| 06:31.15 | Maquis | i know how to do a 2.6 kernel... |
| 06:31.53 | flyboy^ | 2.4 is very common in production environments. |
| 06:31.59 | Maquis | :( |
| 06:32.04 | flyboy^ | 2.6 isn't realy production ready - at least I wouldn't call it that. |
| 06:32.17 | flyboy^ | Although several people run it in production. |
| 06:33.39 | findlay | I'm currently running a production of Tschaikowsky's 4th symphonie with Karajan/Wiener Philharmoniker on a 2.6.10 |
| 06:34.51 | flyboy^ | 2.6.10 is okay. I had some issues with 2.6.9 |
| 06:35.02 | flyboy^ | But 90% of what I admin is 2.4 |
| 06:36.01 | dataw0lf | took that test. |
| 06:36.05 | findlay | nor |
| 06:36.46 | Maquis | dataw0lf: how'd you do? |
| 06:37.56 | flyboy^ | Did you get higher than 99%? ;-) |
| 06:38.01 | dataw0lf | Maquis: 91% / 3.72 |
| 06:38.09 | flyboy^ | Sweet. |
| 06:38.12 | flyboy^ | Good job! |
| 06:38.15 | dataw0lf | thanks. |
| 06:38.15 | findlay | is it hard? |
| 06:38.20 | dataw0lf | apparently I'm weak in networking hehe. |
| 06:38.25 | Maquis | dataw0lf: nice |
| 06:38.25 | dataw0lf | findlay: it was actually decent. |
| 06:38.42 | dataw0lf | I didn't expect some of those questions. |
| 06:38.44 | findlay | are you talking about LPI or something or other? |
| 06:38.52 | dataw0lf | brainbench |
| 06:39.09 | findlay | what's it for? |
| 06:39.33 | dataw0lf | *shrug* |
| 06:39.45 | dataw0lf | I guess it's a way of getting certified online, or for employers. |
| 06:39.52 | findlay | oh |
| 06:40.06 | flyboy^ | There is a free linux admin test we all took. |
| 06:40.13 | flyboy^ | Or, 3 of us have taken. |
| 06:40.22 | dataw0lf | flyboy^: hey, how'd you get the public number for it? |
| 06:40.31 | flyboy^ | It was sent in an e-mail to me. |
| 06:40.57 | dataw0lf | flyboy^: ah, ok. |
| 06:41.14 | flyboy^ | findlay: Well, take a Linux test instead. Much more fun. ;) |
| 06:41.23 | findlay | I don't know why, just decided it when I was youn and gloriously insane |
| 06:41.37 | dataw0lf | http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=5395302 |
| 06:42.02 | flyboy^ | dataw0lf: How long have you been using Linux/UNIX? |
| 06:42.36 | dataw0lf | flyboy^: um, off and on for about 6 years. |
| 06:42.53 | dataw0lf | I'm not the greatest sys admin ever, as you can see though, hehe, I mostly am a programmer. |
| 06:43.39 | findlay | dataw0lf: what paradigms, what languages do you specialize in? |
| 06:43.52 | findlay | do either of those questions make sense? |
| 06:43.55 | flyboy^ | Well, either I really suck, or you aren't giving yourself due credit. |
| 06:43.55 | findlay | (: |
| 06:43.58 | dataw0lf | findlay: I do alot of low level C stuff. |
| 06:44.07 | dataw0lf | findlay: I use Python and PHP quite a bit nowadays, as well. |
| 06:44.13 | dataw0lf | used various other languages of course. |
| 06:44.20 | flyboy^ | I like Python. |
| 06:44.35 | flyboy^ | You happy where you are at right now? |
| 06:44.44 | flyboy^ | We are looking for a Sr. developer. |
| 06:47.21 | dataw0lf | where at? |
| 06:47.37 | Maquis | 5395308 |
| 06:47.39 | flyboy^ | www.westhost.com |
| 06:47.54 | flyboy^ | We have 2 development positions open right now. |
| 06:48.04 | flyboy^ | Sr and a jr or intermediate. |
| 06:48.06 | Maquis | ^^^ it's not very good, but it's what i know |
| 06:48.31 | dataw0lf | yeah, I'm doing consulting right now, but I have a second interview tomorrow. |
| 06:48.42 | dataw0lf | the buzz from working at home has worn off. |
| 06:48.55 | flyboy^ | I know what you mean. |
| 06:48.59 | dataw0lf | and, although I have a decent amount of clients right now, I need something a bit more stable. |
| 06:49.01 | flyboy^ | westhost is in Logan. |
| 06:49.09 | flyboy^ | 17,000 clients. About 200 servers. |
| 06:49.15 | dataw0lf | Nice. |
| 06:49.17 | findlay | what do you do? |
| 06:49.23 | flyboy^ | Linux sys admin. |
| 06:49.40 | flyboy^ | I just got a Jr. admin today - his first day. |
| 06:50.01 | flyboy^ | We run a very interesting environment. |
| 06:50.03 | dataw0lf | what type of developers you guys looking for? |
| 06:50.15 | flyboy^ | Anyone who wants to live in Logan. ;) |
| 06:50.36 | dataw0lf | (I'm new to Utah) |
| 06:50.49 | flyboy^ | We want a really solid team lead. |
| 06:50.55 | findlay | I guess they haven't forked the 2.7 kernel yet |
| 06:51.15 | flyboy^ | We have a lot of Java, PHP and Perl to maintain. |
| 06:51.16 | findlay | what have you seen that's unstable about 2.6, flyboy^? |
| 06:51.34 | dataw0lf | they're really waiting on forking 2.7. |
| 06:51.46 | findlay | dataw0lf: try google maps, it's pretty sweet |
| 06:51.54 | dataw0lf | alot of the stuff they've introduced to 2.6 would've been forked earlier. |
| 06:52.01 | dataw0lf | findlay: yeah, I'm just so used to mapquest. |
| 06:52.05 | flyboy^ | findlay: I've had issues with processes getting 'stuck' - init is the parent and they won't listen to any signals - not SIGTERM - nothing. |
| 06:52.08 | dataw0lf | but, google maps are pretty awesome. |
| 06:52.10 | flyboy^ | have to reboot to clear them. |
| 06:52.17 | dataw0lf | google seems to be pioneering nowadays. |
| 06:52.26 | flyboy^ | 2.6.10 fixed the issues. |
| 06:52.53 | dataw0lf | bleh, I'm still on 2.6.8 |
| 06:53.01 | flyboy^ | Getting there, but I wouldn't want a ton of clients sitting on one just yet. I am excited about where it's headed. |
| 06:53.06 | findlay | dataw0lf: yeah, it will be interesting to see where they go in the next few years, and how they take the world with them |
| 06:53.28 | findlay | flyboy^: yeah, me too |
| 06:53.32 | dataw0lf | you saw their job applications, I'm sure. |
| 06:53.36 | dataw0lf | those things were awesome. |
| 06:54.04 | flyboy^ | If I had a PhD, or two, I would apply at google. ;) |
| 06:55.00 | dataw0lf | yeah, no kidding. |
| 06:55.14 | dataw0lf | If I had a B.S., I'd apply at alot more jobs, hehe. |
| 06:55.54 | flyboy^ | Well, time to hit the hay - nice chat session tonight. later. |
| 06:57.30 | dataw0lf | Maquis: it's a decent test. Nothing extraordinary though. |
| 06:58.16 | Maquis | meh |
| 06:59.29 | dataw0lf | Now I'm hitting myself over the head for not getting a couple of those answers, though. |
| 07:00.22 | Maquis | i'm surprised i got what i managed to get... |
| 07:13.43 | dataw0lf | yeah, I just took the typing test. |
| 07:13.44 | dataw0lf | hehe |
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| 07:16.09 | findlay | irc is a good place to brush up on your typing skills (: |
| 07:16.59 | dataw0lf | http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=5395302 |
| 07:17.06 | dataw0lf | I thought I was faster. |
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| 15:47.19 | tensai | is everybody hard at work this morning or what? |
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| 16:13.43 | beandog | pretty much |
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| 16:22.03 | jakea | work? What's that? |
| 16:22.26 | jakea | Work = Force dot Distance |
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| 16:28.36 | tensai | jakea: exactly. I'm forced to go the distance between home and the office. |
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| 16:50.15 | hans | i hate bc. I hate dc |
| 16:50.34 | hans | all I want is to get a floating point answer to something simple like 8000/48000 |
| 16:50.46 | hans | or 8000.0/48000.0 would work too. but no. |
| 16:54.08 | levi | Fire up lisp! |
| 16:54.51 | levi | Or scheme, or python, or something else with a REPL. |
| 16:55.08 | spr | .1666666 ...? |
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| 16:56.38 | beandog | with a REPL? |
| 16:56.47 | levi | The most precise answer is 1/6. If you force a floating point answer, you get .1666666 repeating. |
| 16:57.00 | levi | Read-Eval-Print Loop. |
| 16:57.02 | hans | spr: yes, it's 1/6. |
| 16:57.24 | hans | that's not the point. the point is what good is a calculator that doesn't know when you want a floating point answer? |
| 16:57.44 | hans | even when you give hints |
| 16:58.03 | hans | I want a commandline calculator that evaluates C expressions |
| 16:58.03 | levi | In lisp, (/ 8000 48000) evals to 1/6, and (/ 8000.0 48000.0) evals to .16666667 |
| 16:58.41 | hans | right, and that behavior I could live with. I'm not running lisp though. I'd just as soon fire up a lame-o GUI calculator |
| 16:58.55 | hans | or unbury my 48GX on my desk |
| 17:02.25 | *** join/#utah lukfugl|work (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 17:02.38 | levi | Why not perl -e "print 8000 / 48000" ? |
| 17:03.04 | lukfugl|work | oooh, golf! perl -e "print 6" |
| 17:03.05 | lukfugl|work | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:03.05 | hans | that's 10 characters too many |
| 17:03.19 | levi | Poor, lazy hans. |
| 17:03.29 | hans | ok, 8 if you include typing "bc" |
| 17:04.02 | hans | but not only that - then I have to swap perl in (both in my mind and on my PC) |
| 17:04.26 | lukfugl|work | hans: what you trying to do (generalized)? |
| 17:04.57 | hans | I'm just ranting about bc and dc, both of which seem to be completely unable to give me a floating point answer to something as simple as 1/6 or 1.0/6.0 |
| 17:05.06 | levi | hans: Just type 'python' instead of 'bc' then. |
| 17:05.08 | tensai | o/~ Gloria, in te domine |
| 17:05.16 | lukfugl|work | hans: or ruby :) |
| 17:05.19 | hans | even more overhead |
| 17:05.25 | hans | ruby is less mental overhead, but still too much typing. ;-) |
| 17:05.43 | hans | I could use irb, but that's more verbose than I'd like for a simple calculator |
| 17:05.45 | levi | There's no mental overhead to typing 'python' followed by '23523 / 23423' |
| 17:06.46 | hans | ok, so running python gives you a repl, like irb |
| 17:06.56 | hans | so irb and python are on the same footing, except I know what ruby is going to do (see there is mental overhead) |
| 17:07.15 | levi | Why do you care, if you're using it as a calculator? |
| 17:07.48 | hans | because I care about my answers? I don't know a scrap of python, and I have no idea what strange things python might do in its parsing |
| 17:07.48 | levi | There's mental overhead to using any calculator, as is obvious by this whole discussion. |
| 17:08.21 | tensai | joshc's experiment worked |
| 17:08.23 | tensai | 16:21.00joshc<PROTECTED> |
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| 17:08.33 | hans | speak of the devil |
| 17:08.44 | tensai | wow. that is weird |
| 17:08.44 | joshc | is that me? |
| 17:08.45 | levi | It would be no more difficult to learn to use python as a bc replacement than to use bc or an equivalent. |
| 17:08.46 | lukfugl|work | woah |
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| 17:08.52 | hans | levi: right, which is why I want one that behaves like a calculator, or behaves like C |
| 17:08.55 | tensai | joshc: your log experiment was a success |
| 17:09.06 | joshc | yep - i guess im not a gullible fool after all |
| 17:09.10 | joshc | er, well.. |
| 17:09.14 | joshc | at least that time i wasnt |
| 17:09.42 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:09.52 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:10.00 | tensai | it does log that you said *something* though |
| 17:10.01 | hans | joshc: you could even set up your client to automatically prepend the space. |
| 17:10.31 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:10.37 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:10.59 | levi | hans: Anyway, python does pretty much what you want. You can use it or not, as you see fit. |
| 17:11.18 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
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| 17:11.41 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:12.05 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:12.31 | hans | levi: irb does too, so I'm not likely to use python. bc and dc are much more perfect though, if I could just get them to be floating point |
| 17:12.52 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:13.04 | lukfugl|work | -l? |
| 17:13.15 | hans | YES! |
| 17:13.28 | hans | that is what I wanted. I should have started ranting 5 minutes later and we could have avoided all this. :-) |
| 17:13.33 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:14.06 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:14.13 | hans | If bc is invoked with the -l option, a math library is preloaded and |
| 17:14.14 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:14.38 | hans | joshc: I was ranting about bc and dc not giving me a floating point answer to 1.0/6.0 |
| 17:14.45 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:14.58 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:15.09 | hans | people were telling me to do insane things like perl -e "print 1.0/6.0" |
| 17:15.16 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:15.42 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:15.46 | lukfugl|work | hans: my solution before finding out just now about -l was to add several zeros to the numerator and interpolate the decimal point myself |
| 17:15.48 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:15.52 | lukfugl|work | eg. 1000000 / 6 |
| 17:16.02 | joshc | <PROTECTED> |
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| 17:16.08 | hans | heh |
| 17:16.25 | hans | it's like he came in on tensai's beckon, fulfilled his mission, and left. |
| 17:16.38 | lukfugl|work | lol |
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| 17:43.05 | levi | hans: Typing perl -e "print 1.0/6.0" is less time-consuming than having to scrounge around a messy desk for a lost calculator. :) |
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| 17:53.00 | hans | levi: for one calculation, perhaps |
| 17:53.14 | hans | otherwise you need a repl |
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| 18:48.56 | levi | hans: Yeah, I agree, which is why I suggested lisp, scheme, or python first. Wasn't sure whether you just wanted a quick occasional calculation or what. But bc -l works, so it's moot now. |
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| 19:01.44 | Maquis | |lart ECS |
| 19:02.04 | ECS | ~lart Maquis |
| 19:02.12 | Maquis | ~lart ECS |
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| 19:55.45 | hans | any modem gurus ? |
| 19:56.04 | hans | ~[7f]}#@!}!C} }4}"}&} }*} } }(}"}'}"}%}&[1e][17]Z}(OK~ |
| 19:56.05 | hans | --> PPP negotiation detected. |
| 19:56.06 | hans | but, |
| 19:56.46 | hans | dialing into a different modem but the same brand (us robotics v.anything), afaict configured the same way (same init strings, same dip switches) |
| 19:57.28 | hans | [7f]A[0c]_x{xyxxxxxx~x~fvI[7f][7f]A[0c]?x{xyxxxxxx~x~n?+[7f][7f]A[0c][7f]x{xyxxxxxx~x~FGNn[7f]A[0c]?x{xyxxxxxx~x~Zcyn[7f]A[0c][7f]x[7f]xyxxxxxx~x~nyR[7f] |
| 19:57.32 | hans | --> Connected, but carrier signal lost! Retrying... |
| 19:57.42 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@71.32.230.91) |
| 19:58.00 | hans | which looks like ppp negotiation to me, but obviously not to wvdial. |
| 19:59.29 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@71.32.230.91) |
| 20:00.46 | hans | for that matter, it doesn't work in stupid mode either |
| 20:06.46 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 20:07.14 | sjansen | I just have to take a moment to say the Donald Knuth is amazing. |
| 20:07.58 | hans | ok. do you want to also say why? |
| 20:08.09 | sjansen | Reading the TeX book. |
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| 20:08.46 | sjansen | "Since the wavelength of visible light is approximately 100 sp, rounding errors of a few sp make no difference to the eye." |
| 20:09.24 | sjansen | He then goes on to explain that a TeX pt is slightly larger than the official definition of a pt. |
| 20:09.48 | sjansen | "This is more than two orders of magnitude less than the amount by which the inch itself changed during 1959..." |
| 20:09.57 | tensai | heh. I just saw a clever new bit of spam. It's ascii-art spelling out "Viagra $25" |
| 20:10.24 | sjansen | Knuth rocks hard core. |
| 20:12.08 | sjansen | Sadly, TeX can't produce documents larger than 18.892 feet with error smaller than visible light wavelengths. :-( |
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| 20:28.30 | hans | there goes my billboard plans |
| 20:28.45 | sjansen | Oh, no, you could still use it to make a billboard. |
| 20:28.59 | sjansen | Just don't let people get to close with a magnifying glass. |
| 20:32.04 | sjansen | heh, Knuth describes boxes with negative dimensions as "somewhat hard to draw" |
| 20:33.23 | sjansen | It's really too bad he didn't write TeX today with Unicode and a much better understanding of international scripts. |
| 20:34.02 | hans | yes |
| 20:34.27 | hans | and a few lessons on syntax that have been learned over the years too |
| 20:35.20 | hans | tex isn't any better than xml as a syntax |
| 20:35.26 | hans | although slightly less verbose |
| 20:35.35 | sjansen | slightly? |
| 20:36.14 | hans | \section{This is an ugly section header} |
| 20:36.27 | hans | that's only one end tag away from XML |
| 20:37.08 | hans | less if you do it as one tag <section c='This is an ugly section header'/> |
| 20:37.49 | sjansen | <set register="box0"><hbox>T<hbox pre-kern="-1.667em" post-kern="-.125em" lower=".5ex">E</box>X</hbox></set> |
| 20:37.52 | sjansen | versus |
| 20:37.58 | sjansen | \setbox0=\hbox{T\kern-.1667em\lower.5ex\hbox{E}\kern-.125em X} |
| 20:38.17 | hans | 50% reduction, twice as hard to understand. |
| 20:39.03 | hans | XML never said it wasn't verbose. And you just assumed I was hinting at XML, but I wasn't. I wouldn't want to use XML-ized tex. But I wouldn't mind a more sane syntax. |
| 20:39.03 | sjansen | I don't claim it's pretty, but I think TeX is much easier to read than XML. |
| 20:39.22 | Bradipo | You talking TeX or LaTeX? |
| 20:39.23 | sjansen | I know you weren't suggesting XML. |
| 20:39.27 | hans | i disagree. easier to type maybe |
| 20:39.32 | hans | but not easier to read |
| 20:39.46 | sjansen | I was just pointing out how horribly wrong it could be in a "modern" syntax. |
| 20:39.55 | sjansen | I'm talking TeX |
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| 20:57.18 | mrpull | i'm looking for a utility that would make managing a IIS webfarm easier |
| 20:57.39 | beandog | mrpull: if you find one, lemme know. |
| 20:57.41 | tensai | apache |
| 20:57.46 | sjansen | heh |
| 20:57.49 | beandog | heh |
| 20:57.49 | mrpull | heh... |
| 20:57.53 | beandog | I was gonna say .. the power switch |
| 20:58.16 | tensai | pulling them all inside one mmc isn't enough? |
| 20:58.19 | beandog | mrpull: you might wanna check out the iis lockdown tool to give you a small degree of security |
| 20:58.19 | mrpull | true. but that isn't in the parameters of the original problem. |
| 20:58.36 | mrpull | nope. i created an "all iis servers" MMC view... |
| 20:58.56 | mrpull | but I'd like to say... I need a new vhost... here is the range of IP's and the home folder.... |
| 20:59.01 | mrpull | presto... done! |
| 20:59.14 | mrpull | it is a stretch, but I'm sure it could be done. |
| 20:59.39 | tensai | that's way outside my limited iis capabilities |
| 20:59.46 | mrpull | mine too :) |
| 21:00.11 | mrpull | bonus points for migrating from 2K to 2K3 :) |
| 21:00.33 | beandog | how many iis boxes are you managing |
| 21:00.36 | sjansen | mrpull: You don't want much, do you? |
| 21:00.48 | mrpull | only 4 right now :) |
| 21:00.59 | mrpull | but it could be 9 soon. |
| 21:01.06 | beandog | yikes |
| 21:01.16 | beandog | Ive got ... 6 right now I think. |
| 21:01.26 | mrpull | making the changes is a headache (managing the IP's, the loadbalancers, DNS, etc) |
| 21:01.46 | mrpull | if I could do the IIS part in one step, life would be a little easier |
| 21:01.58 | mrpull | it's good to be lazy in the right ways... right? |
| 21:02.14 | beandog | lazy in the right way? Theres an idea. :) |
| 21:03.24 | sjansen | lazy + web server = mod_perl |
| 21:03.40 | sjansen | There's your problem, you're using the wrong technology. |
| 21:05.35 | mrpull | the customers specify the tech. i'm just a puppet. |
| 21:06.07 | sjansen | Was actually trying to trigger the klaxon's by Jayce^'s desk. |
| 21:06.24 | beandog | klaxons? |
| 21:08.29 | levi | Alarm sirens, notifying him that someone is discussing perl. |
| 21:08.42 | beandog | Ah |
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| 21:15.51 | sjansen | 'TEX actually recognizes several kinds of infinity, some of which are "moreinfinite" than others.' |
| 21:16.29 | levi | aleph-naught, aleph-one, etc? |
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| 21:17.11 | sjansen | lambda hype-chi epsilson delta! |
| 21:17.34 | sjansen | levi: Not sure what you just said yet. |
| 21:17.52 | lukfugl|work | sjansen: aleph-* are the different "breeds" of infinity |
| 21:18.22 | sjansen | ah, as in the whole "countably infinite" etc. |
| 21:18.31 | lukfugl|work | yup |
| 21:18.46 | levi | I think the set of integers is aleph-naught, while the set of real numbers is aleph-one. But I could be off in my examples. |
| 21:19.05 | lukfugl|work | btw, just curious. Is it known whether there are countably-infinite of uncountably-infinite types of infinity? |
| 21:19.27 | lukfugl|work | levi: you mean the cardinality of the sets, right? |
| 21:19.29 | levi | Dunno about that. |
| 21:20.24 | levi | lukfugl|work: My familiarity with the terms doesn't go very deep, unfortunately. |
| 21:21.13 | lukfugl|work | cardinality = size |
| 21:21.23 | levi | Yeah. |
| 21:22.00 | sjansen | ~muzzle lukfugl|work and levi |
| 21:22.09 | levi | sjansen: What, are you afraid of a little math? |
| 21:22.33 | sjansen | I'm gradiated. I don't have to know math anymore. |
| 21:25.04 | levi | Bah. Math is good for you. |
| 21:25.08 | levi | You pansy! |
| 21:30.45 | *** join/#utah tyce (~tyce@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 21:31.07 | tyce | hey, is the resident MyTHTV export in here today? |
| 21:31.13 | tyce | *expert |
| 21:31.26 | sjansen | you want bbeatie |
| 21:31.37 | sjansen | er, bbeattie |
| 21:32.52 | tyce | ok, thanks |
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| 21:33.05 | tyce | anyone else in here play with .17 yet? |
| 21:33.31 | tyce | more specifically the firewire capture feature. |
| 21:35.49 | mrpull | hrmmm... MS has an offering for managing multiple IIS boxes. |
| 21:36.09 | mrpull | for 3 freaking thousand dollars per processor |
| 21:36.35 | sjansen | MS: "How much can we soak you for today?" |
| 21:37.00 | mrpull | and that is on top of the OS price. |
| 21:37.11 | mrpull | geeze. maybe i'll just have to do it by hand. |
| 21:37.36 | mrpull | $ 9 * 2 * 3000 = Too much money |
| 21:38.08 | tensai | hire a lackey to do it for that price |
| 21:38.21 | mrpull | i'm afraid i'm the lackey :) |
| 21:39.09 | tensai | show the boss what MS wants ($54,000) and tell him you'll do it for half |
| 21:39.17 | beandog | hahah |
| 21:39.22 | beandog | Ill do it for a quarter :) |
| 21:39.26 | beandog | of the price, not $.25. |
| 21:39.34 | mrpull | beandog... you are hired. |
| 21:39.48 | sjansen | here's a quarter, get yourself a real OS |
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| 22:14.14 | sjansen | Uncle! Uncle! |
| 22:15.59 | levi | Heh. |
| 22:16.09 | levi | I want to get tAoCP sometime. |
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| 22:46.46 | Supaplex | schweet |
| 22:47.05 | Supaplex | I found a post mentioning DI, and I was like eh, provo? what?!!?! :) |
| 22:57.22 | mrpull | a post where? |
| 23:01.27 | levi | He's gone again. |
| 23:01.38 | levi | We may never know what he was talking about. |
| 23:13.12 | beandog | So... is there a keystroke for reply-to list in TB? |
| 23:18.46 | tensai | beandog: Ctrl-Alt-Backspace |
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| 23:25.08 | findlay | hans: is there any way beyond what is provieded for my sound card in ALSA to amplify the microphone input system wide? |
| 23:25.37 | findlay | I've got kphone working now, and thanks for your help |
| 23:25.47 | findlay | it's still just really quiet |
| 23:25.55 | findlay | for the input |
| 23:26.14 | hans | you know, I would have thought that by now /. would be able to render correctly on firefox |
| 23:26.42 | tensai | I would have thought by now /. would spell check and stop posting duplicates |
| 23:27.48 | findlay | hans: yeah, it's pretty annoying |
| 23:28.03 | hans | findlay: you might look at what magic you can do with ~/.asoundcr |
| 23:28.06 | hans | r, asouindrc |
| 23:28.12 | *** join/#utah spig (~spig_@translate.sento.com) |
| 23:28.14 | hans | and the wizards in #lad might be a help too |
| 23:28.22 | hans | asoundrc |
| 23:28.35 | hans | if you figure it out, let me know. my work computewr has the same problem. |
| 23:28.46 | findlay | what card? |
| 23:28.50 | levi | findlay: Hey, sjansen wanted to know about different magnitudes of infinity. Maybe you could explain it to him, in great detail. ;) |
| 23:28.54 | hans | some on-board via thing |
| 23:29.14 | findlay | I've got a on board cmpci |
| 23:29.49 | findlay | levi: just point him to some wikipedia page on Cantor, I guess |
| 23:30.09 | findlay | I don't remember too much about cardinality of infinite sets |
| 23:30.55 | levi | findlay: Actually, I explained to him the little bit I remembered, and he whined about math overload or something. :) |
| 23:31.18 | sjansen | oh, haven't had enough, eh? |
| 23:31.29 | tensai | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Cantor |
| 23:32.47 | findlay | just that the cardinality of counting|natural|integers|rational|fractional|(some other infinite disc 2^{cardinality of counting|natural|integers|rational|fractional|(some other infinite discreet set of) numbers} = \Aleph_1 |
| 23:33.32 | findlay | the cardinality of counting|natural|integers|rational|fractional|(some other infinite discreet set of) numbers = \Aleph_0 |
| 23:33.43 | findlay | and 2^{cardinality of counting|natural|integers|rational|fractional|(some other infinite discreet set of) numbers} |
| 23:33.47 | findlay | = \Aleph_1 |
| 23:34.16 | findlay | but I'm not entirely certain, so don't take it to Gringotts |
| 23:34.18 | hans | findlay: it's a RealTek ALC655 |
| 23:36.33 | findlay | cardinality of real|complex|hypercomplex|etc.|or whatever continuous set = \Aleph_1 |
| 23:37.11 | findlay | the interesting part is that the 2^{cardinality of R} = \Aleph_2 |
| 23:37.24 | findlay | and |
| 23:37.49 | tensai | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number |
| 23:38.47 | findlay | using higher order binary operators and other wierd things I invented |
| 23:39.27 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 23:39.38 | findlay | though I had one math professor at UVSC tell me my higher order binary operators were eclipsed and made trivial by portions of advanced algebra |
| 23:49.40 | goozbach | socks |
| 23:49.45 | goozbach | sock! |
| 23:54.13 | Maquis | socks? |
| 23:56.40 | goozbach | I smell tire! |
| 23:59.36 | Maquis | ew!!! |